Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Hello out louders, Holly here.
Speaker 1: If you're clicking on Friday show hoping you're going to
Speaker 1: hear a bit of an update of what's happening in
Speaker 1: Britain with the arrest of the man formerly known as
Speaker 1: Prince Andrew, you are not going to find that on
Speaker 1: this show. On this show, you are going to hear myself,
Speaker 1: Jesse and Claire Stephens having our usual Friday news free
Speaker 1: conversation that hopefully will send you into the weekend smiling.
Speaker 1: But if you want to know about what's going on
Speaker 1: with Andrew, what I think about it, what happened, why now,
Speaker 1: what it means for the monarchy, all that stuff, obviously
Speaker 1: we'll talk about it on Monday. But also there is
Speaker 1: a special little episode in your feed, so go and
Speaker 1: check out that emergency meeting. Enjoy the show. Hello, and
Speaker 1: welcome to MoMA Mia out Loud. It's what women are
Speaker 1: actually talking about on Friday, the twentieth of February. I
Speaker 1: am Holly Wainwright.
Speaker 2: I'm Claire Stephen, and I'm Jesse Stephens.
Speaker 1: And with the two Stephens again.
Speaker 2: Why was my name second? I know I noticed that
Speaker 2: Claire must have done the Yeah, yeah, that's weird.
Speaker 1: Emily Vernham is still traveling, so I get the pleasure
Speaker 1: of the double Stevens. There's lots of the outloud has
Speaker 1: been commenting on how good it is to have you
Speaker 1: two together. The chemistry.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well we delayed the other comments, don't we claim
Speaker 2: the ones you get kicked out of the group, so
Speaker 2: you be careful.
Speaker 1: You have been working on that chemistry since the womb.
Speaker 2: So yes, exactly.
Speaker 1: Here's what's on our agenda for today. The most famous
Speaker 1: magazine editor in the world has sat down with her successor.
Speaker 1: I wrote predecessor on the notes I'm looking at That
Speaker 1: was wrong. She has sat down with her successor and
Speaker 1: they gave a very awkward insight into the generational divisions
Speaker 1: in your average office.
Speaker 2: I have so many thoughts on that video, plus the
Speaker 2: thirty five new dating rules that have unsurprisingly started a
Speaker 2: fight in the comments section. Woot have you ever been
Speaker 2: on a date? Clip? Yes? Okay, think you have never
Speaker 2: been on a date? And our recommendations, including a new
Speaker 2: discovery that has legitimately changed my life.
Speaker 1: But first, I want to imagine, like just for a
Speaker 1: little holiday for the brain, imagine being twenty one year
Speaker 1: old Apple Martin right with that face. If just in
Speaker 1: case anyone's confused about the words Apple and Martin being together,
Speaker 1: this is Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin's daughter. She is
Speaker 1: for reasons that are not yet clear, but I feel
Speaker 1: are going to become clear, being pushed on the culture
Speaker 1: quite a lot.
Speaker 2: At the moment, I think she wants to be an
Speaker 2: actor and in a band.
Speaker 1: Yes, she wants to be an actor. I'm sure she's
Speaker 1: about to be in lots of things.
Speaker 2: Apparently she had a rebellious streak which led her to
Speaker 2: law school for five minutes, and I was like, that's
Speaker 2: not what my rebellious stroke looked like. But now she's
Speaker 2: given up Laura, and she's like, jokes, I want to
Speaker 2: be an actor.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And so she did a video for Vogue, like
Speaker 1: a getting Ready video, which actually I enjoyed because she
Speaker 1: starts with a completely bare face. She's one of the
Speaker 1: best looking humans on the planet, but she does have
Speaker 1: some pimples and some dark circles, and by the end
Speaker 1: she looks different, and I was like, oh, makeup love
Speaker 1: it anyway.
Speaker 2: We'd all independently watched that video and had reminds yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, anyway, the bit of it I want to talk
Speaker 1: about is a very relatable bit I think. Right, she
Speaker 1: talks about having bad skin when she was a teenager,
Speaker 1: But the unrelatable part about that is when your mom
Speaker 1: is Gwyneth Paltrow, she has some fixes up her sleep.
Speaker 1: This is what Apple said about her acne face.
Speaker 3: If I have a pimple, it's not the end of
Speaker 3: my life. And my mom definitely gave me advice and
Speaker 3: like God bless her, she would ask all of her
Speaker 3: super goofy people about like where I should go visit
Speaker 3: I went to the dermatologist a million times. You find
Speaker 3: a good chill skincare routine and like, drink a lot
Speaker 3: of water, And honestly, the more that you stress about it,
Speaker 3: the worst it'll get. Most likely this is all stressed,
Speaker 3: so honestly, I think that everyone is still gorgeous.
Speaker 1: Honestly, say, a chill skincare routine she does in this
Speaker 1: video is at least ten steps long, but still no
Speaker 1: shape to Apple, Lots of us have fancy skincare routines.
Speaker 1: But the bit I love about this is there's something
Speaker 1: about generation ex parents who cannot deal with their children
Speaker 1: having spots and who will if they have the resources,
Speaker 1: take them to the dermatologists, give them twenty five products,
Speaker 1: consult as in this case, they're goopy friends. Now, is
Speaker 1: this our experience as children, that our parents were fixing
Speaker 1: our faces. We're different generations, but.
Speaker 2: Still we are. And two of us had the same
Speaker 2: mother growing up, but in fact, I think all three
Speaker 2: of us had the same mother.
Speaker 1: As Stevens.
Speaker 2: Very similar people. But when it's Gwyneth Paltrow and your
Speaker 2: daughter's face is probably an extension of your brand being Goop,
Speaker 2: And like having good skin is critical to the way
Speaker 2: that you project yourself. I imagine that there is this kind
Speaker 2: of unsaid like sweetie, let's fix your skin up. Whereas
Speaker 2: with our mum it was like this is character built.
Speaker 2: What are you going to fix your face every time
Speaker 2: you hate something about it? It's like, well that, and
Speaker 2: it's actually the world we live in now, yes, And
Speaker 2: it's like it's a slippery slope. As soon as you
Speaker 2: fix your skin, you'll have another issue cystic acne, and
Speaker 2: it hurts. And there was a new drug out on
Speaker 2: the market that I remember everyone was taking and Mum
Speaker 2: was like, no, no, no, we're not on principal character building.
Speaker 2: You are not to take that drug. She was so
Speaker 2: so against it. I remember watching those skincare ads and
Speaker 2: just saying, please, it will fix it. Britney Spears says
Speaker 2: it will fix it. Why would she lie people? And
Speaker 2: in fact, this is you know recently we talked about
Speaker 2: petty hills will die on. This is my petty hill, you,
Speaker 2: Apple Martin, that's not acne. Two or three pimples is
Speaker 2: not acne. Acne is when it's like a whole part
Speaker 2: of your face. I remember a girl at school touching
Speaker 2: my forehead and going ooh bumpy because it was just
Speaker 2: there was so many bumps, like acnees are real. It's
Speaker 2: painful and cystic, like it's a real It can be
Speaker 2: like a health issusue with hormones or to do with whatever,
Speaker 2: having three bumps like use some clear whistle.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I get that. Although to be fair to Apple,
Speaker 1: she did say she used to have acne. She wasn't
Speaker 1: claiming to have it now. Good. But I want to
Speaker 1: speak for like the helicopter parents, not that I necessarily
Speaker 1: am one, but there are plenty in my generation. There
Speaker 1: is something even though we all know that it doesn't
Speaker 1: matter and our children are beautiful to us at all times.
Speaker 1: There is something confronting because we all think our children
Speaker 1: are beautiful, right, whether they are, whether they're not, we
Speaker 1: all look at them and go, oh, my god, you're
Speaker 1: the most perfect thing I've ever seen. It's the perfect.
Speaker 1: There is something very confronting when they break out, like
Speaker 1: when they go through that very not you're suddenly like,
Speaker 1: my child is blemished. And I can see how the helicopters,
Speaker 1: the Queen helicopters, are like, this will not be happening.
Speaker 2: And in defense of gen X mums, it's like, do
Speaker 2: you remember so vividly how awful it was the toilet
Speaker 2: took on your self esteem? And also it can scar,
Speaker 2: so it's like if you do have really bad skin,
Speaker 2: it can be something that you deal with for your
Speaker 2: entire life. So I understand getting involved, but I must
Speaker 2: say when I've seen instances where the mother says something
Speaker 2: before the kid does.
Speaker 1: Something about like you've got to fix your diet darling.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly right. I've seen lots of Facebook groups where
Speaker 2: on the one hand, it will be mum saying I've
Speaker 2: noticed my childhoods acne, what do I do? And that
Speaker 2: always frustrates me because, as we've learned from Apple Martin,
Speaker 2: and as we've also learned from Kendall Jenner, even if
Speaker 2: you have access to the best dermatologists, the best doctor,
Speaker 2: the best ski, all the goofy people, you're still going
Speaker 2: to get pimples. So skincare is capitalism, like there is
Speaker 2: only so much it can do. If you're a teenage girl,
Speaker 2: you're gonna get pimples. And then the other thing I
Speaker 2: noticed that's sort of in the same world is parents
Speaker 2: saying I've noticed my child's put on weight.
Speaker 1: What do I do?
Speaker 2: Should I say that we only eat healthy food now?
Speaker 2: And you think, oh no, the complex that almost objectifying
Speaker 2: your child is going to give them when it's a
Speaker 2: phase the past.
Speaker 1: I know, and you're one hundred percent right, but I'm
Speaker 1: just going to speak with honesty, and they can come
Speaker 1: up like you can't help, like you have eyes, you
Speaker 1: look at your child and we all know, like you
Speaker 1: don't mention it. You don't talk about weight, we don't
Speaker 1: talk about spots, we don't talk about external appearances because
Speaker 1: what's inside that matters. But you can see what's going on,
Speaker 1: and it takes a certain amount of discipline not to
Speaker 1: be likedars, did we eat a whole pack of lollies?
Speaker 1: I'm just going to say it, like I'm just going
Speaker 1: to say it. I can just imagine Quinny doing that,
Speaker 1: and I can also imagine her going like, when we
Speaker 1: fix the acne issue, then Apple, we can take you
Speaker 1: on the red cap until all that time has come.
Speaker 1: Let's just pretend you want to be a private.
Speaker 2: Let's pretend you want to do something boring like more.
Speaker 1: My general experience of having now a sixteen year old
Speaker 1: and my friends who do is that we're all in
Speaker 1: awe of how good looking our kids are. Like kids
Speaker 1: are better looking than we were ever right when I
Speaker 1: was a teenager, I was not as good looking.
Speaker 2: They have better skin. Is it skincare?
Speaker 1: And when I say that, sorry, I don't mean to
Speaker 1: say like, oh, my daughter's good looking. What I mean
Speaker 1: is they just seem to know, like how to do
Speaker 1: their face. They don't seem to be wearing really embarrassing things.
Speaker 2: We spoke at a high school at our old high
Speaker 2: school recently, and we looked out and we were like,
Speaker 2: hang on, this is not what it looked like. Everyone's
Speaker 2: skin was better. They know how to do their hair.
Speaker 2: Orthodontic work. I think has come a long way. If
Speaker 2: they're not taking the risks that we know they don't take. No,
Speaker 2: but like in a good way, in a classy way. Yeah,
Speaker 2: exactly right. I think they just get really good advice
Speaker 2: from TikTok.
Speaker 1: It was one of the things social media is making
Speaker 1: their lives better.
Speaker 2: You come here, I thank you. No, no, I don't have
Speaker 2: a hair. You have twins to get it.
Speaker 1: Get it.
Speaker 2: She can't get it obnoxiously. Can you feel it when
Speaker 2: I pull it? That's the first time I ever seen it,
Speaker 2: because I get one on my cheek that grows to
Speaker 2: like yeah, or I get one in the middle of
Speaker 2: my forehead that shows up overnight. But you've got one
Speaker 2: on your chain that's like a long whisker. But I
Speaker 2: don't think a camera will pick it.
Speaker 1: For the record, Jesse has never picked me up what
Speaker 1: twins can do.
Speaker 2: So I saw it. It was like blowing in the
Speaker 2: wind a little bit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, moving on.
Speaker 2: Last week, the iconic Modern Love column in The New
Speaker 2: York Times published a list of thirty five new dating rules.
Speaker 2: The authors Maya Lee and Daniel Jones explained that thirty
Speaker 2: one years ago, on Valentine's Day, a book called The
Speaker 2: Rules was published.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, it was.
Speaker 2: Was that like a man book that all the men? No, no,
Speaker 2: it was later, so it was.
Speaker 1: It was massive. I mean, not my thing, but it
Speaker 1: was massive and wing of the game. The Rules was
Speaker 1: all about playing hard to get, basically, don't call him back.
Speaker 2: And it promised time tested secrets for capturing the heart
Speaker 2: of mister right. Some of those included things like don't
Speaker 2: talk to a man first, don't meet him halfway or
Speaker 2: go dutch on a date, don't tell him what to do,
Speaker 2: and don't discuss the rules with your therapist. That's always
Speaker 2: a red flot, which I'm like, yeah, no, that's getting
Speaker 2: people into an awful situation. The other one was don't
Speaker 2: call him and rarely return his call. Wait, this is
Speaker 2: setting you up.
Speaker 1: For a ver you know, I watched I'm sure we'll
Speaker 1: talk about it at a later date, but I watched
Speaker 1: most of the first episode of that new show that's
Speaker 1: about Carolyn Bissett. Yeah, and this is set in the
Speaker 1: early nineties, right, and she is a rules girl, that's
Speaker 1: what we used to call them rules girls. And so
Speaker 1: she says he asked for her her number and she's like, no,
Speaker 1: not giving you my number, and he's like well, and
Speaker 1: she's like, you know where I work? Like it's that very.
Speaker 2: Rules girl, Yeah, that ain't me.
Speaker 1: It was like she says to her friend at one
Speaker 1: point in the beginning, why would he pursue you when
Speaker 1: he knows he doesn't have to? That is the rules.
Speaker 2: So I would like to think that those rules are
Speaker 2: a little bit outdated. So according to the New York Times,
Speaker 2: there are new dating rules as crowdsourced from their audience,
Speaker 2: and there are some I'd like to discuss, and I'm
Speaker 2: sure there are something that you'd like to bring to
Speaker 2: the table. Rule one was don't be gross.
Speaker 1: This broad, that's quite broad. How do we.
Speaker 2: Feels really personally? Don't immediately talk about medical maladies that
Speaker 2: are gross and controllable.
Speaker 1: So if em Vernon was here, let's be honest, she
Speaker 1: would immediately dislike that one. She would be like, he
Speaker 1: sits in the chair and I've told him about my
Speaker 1: vaginismus five minutes before, exactly and gross. I'm not saying
Speaker 1: it's gross, but that would fall into that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, or like your lactose intolerance. I actually find
Speaker 2: health issues are really interesting topic of conversation, same recent surgeries,
Speaker 2: somebody might have like Crohn's disease, somebody might have like
Speaker 2: about like and I actually think a lot of the
Speaker 2: comments said this was ablest, and I actually am a
Speaker 2: little bit on board with that. But also, gross things
Speaker 2: are only gross if you think the person is gross. Yeah,
Speaker 2: if you think that somebody's hot, then nothing's groll.
Speaker 1: That's just interesting, I reckon that's true of nearly all
Speaker 1: these rules, Like it's fine if they're hot, but you're
Speaker 1: right that it's ablest, but be honest, Like you don't
Speaker 1: really want on a first date for them to be
Speaker 1: talking about the klonoscopy or like the things that send
Speaker 1: them to the toilet at speed, Like I just think
Speaker 1: that is okay to save that.
Speaker 2: We've all got those stories and they're fun, but you
Speaker 2: just hold them in your back pocket for a rainy day,
Speaker 2: Like I don't need to hear like Jake of a
Speaker 2: Lordie in an interview talking about and intolerance and the
Speaker 2: exact issue he's got and how many times it makes
Speaker 2: him go to the toilet.
Speaker 1: Later that's later anyway, Sorry, Yeah, got caught up.
Speaker 4: In that rule.
Speaker 2: Number five roommates after age twenty eight, No room so
Speaker 2: and cost of living Christ Okay, so I'm not allowed
Speaker 2: to be poor.
Speaker 1: I would not have got together with elderly boyfriend. That
Speaker 1: was the case when I met him. He was way
Speaker 1: too old to have flatmates, but he had flatmates. Like,
Speaker 1: it's the reality of the world.
Speaker 2: And they're a vibe. What's your issue?
Speaker 1: They give you people to bond about. Bitches. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: know what it's like.
Speaker 2: Cool, they'll live alone in an awful apartment, Yes, in
Speaker 2: a studio part Yeah. Rule fifteen worrisome names. Avoid men
Speaker 2: who go by the childhood diminutive of their name e g.
Speaker 2: John who goes by Johnny nearly is rolling in her
Speaker 2: as they often remain child like as adults. You can't
Speaker 2: police someone's name. You can't be judgmental, terrible everyone single. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I read these and just when you're too judgmental, you're
Speaker 2: all contradicting yourselves because there were a lot of rules
Speaker 2: that just went And this is a problem with rules
Speaker 2: is that then you get a new set and they're
Speaker 2: completely different. I just think if you're going in with
Speaker 2: that attitude, you're the problem. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So, like I gave my kids, So my son's called Billy,
Speaker 1: and I have to admit that I did think Billy
Speaker 1: will be cute when he's little. When he's grown up,
Speaker 1: people can call him Bill. But what's the tipping point, Like,
Speaker 1: what's the tipping point between when you get rid of
Speaker 1: the y?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: And also in Australia, we don't roll like that. We
Speaker 1: just put a Y on everything all the time. If
Speaker 1: he's Davy's Dave O, well oh in that case, and
Speaker 1: then like are we're not.
Speaker 2: Allowed to and it's not his fault. His name's Billy,
Speaker 2: Like it's my fault, that's not his fault. Rule twenty
Speaker 2: three was the Jane Air test. Holy, I feel like
Speaker 2: you've got a lot of thoughts about this. If if
Speaker 2: they won't try to read your favorite book, how will
Speaker 2: they try to love and understand you?
Speaker 1: Okay, there were some of these that I've taken a
Speaker 1: note with and I've said yes, full agreement, and some
Speaker 1: I like that you're play with you. There are some
Speaker 1: that I'm going full agreement and some that I've said absolutely,
Speaker 1: this is absolutely not I do not require my partner
Speaker 1: to read my favorite books. I'm allowed to like my things,
Speaker 1: and they're allowed to like their things, and they don't
Speaker 1: have to be the same in order for us to
Speaker 1: be compatible. Imagine if I mean, I guess it's cute.
Speaker 1: I think, what's M's favorite couple Julipa and Callum, Yeah,
Speaker 1: Callum James bond that guy they bonded because they were
Speaker 1: reading the same book or he pretended to be reading
Speaker 1: the same book or something. And it is great. But
Speaker 1: on the other hand, like, imagine if I said Janeay's
Speaker 1: my favorite book and Brent Bread like, no, no, he
Speaker 1: would never read that book and he doesn't need to know.
Speaker 2: And what am I meant to play Rory's favorite video games?
Speaker 2: And I'm meant to watch his chess YouTube video. I
Speaker 2: don't want to take an interest. I don't think dating
Speaker 2: should come with a reading list. No, I've got enough
Speaker 2: to do without more jobs.
Speaker 1: No, there was something I really liked though. Don't change
Speaker 1: yourself for dating unless it's a change you would be
Speaker 1: glad to make anyway, like being tidier or drinking less,
Speaker 1: says Mary Rhodes, one of the people in this And
Speaker 1: I think that's a good rule because when we say
Speaker 1: never change for a guy or a girl, like, I
Speaker 1: totally support that. I don't think you should should give
Speaker 1: oneself a personality transplant. But somebody being a good influence
Speaker 1: on you is not a bad thing.
Speaker 2: No, and you do sometimes you need a bit of encouragement, yes,
Speaker 2: and you do grow in the same direction, consciously or unconsciously,
Speaker 2: like if you've got a partner who likes to get
Speaker 2: up early, it becomes harder to sleep in. Like all
Speaker 2: of those little things would actually works.
Speaker 1: Quite well, never guess that. Meantime, I had.
Speaker 2: A few that I was speaking to some women in
Speaker 2: the office, and I also thought about ones that like
Speaker 2: rules I had when I was dating in my twenties.
Speaker 2: One is, ask yourself after the date if you felt
Speaker 2: like you were being yourself, because sometimes a date can
Speaker 2: feel like it went well, but then you go, oh,
Speaker 2: I don't I feel like I was putting it on
Speaker 2: a bit or I felt as though I couldn't quite
Speaker 2: be totally myself or give on a stancewers And I
Speaker 2: think that's sometimes a hint. And I really liked this one,
Speaker 2: which is if it's a seven out of ten, like
Speaker 2: if it's lessane hundred percent, give them a second date,
Speaker 2: because no one's their best self on a first date.
Speaker 2: Things are weird, things are awkward. I'm a bit over
Speaker 2: the ick culturally and the idea that, oh, who was
Speaker 2: wearing these socks, or who's wearing these shoes or he
Speaker 2: said this thing, and blah blah blah blah blah. If
Speaker 2: we are going to be that hard and fast about dating,
Speaker 2: I think we're going to miss some really good ones.
Speaker 2: So I reckon that, don't write people off to quickly.
Speaker 2: The other one was give yourself a drink limits why
Speaker 2: I wish I wish I had done that a few times.
Speaker 1: That's why it's dangerous to do the meeting for a
Speaker 1: drink thing. Yeah, yeah, because you know, I totally support
Speaker 1: the meeting for dinner thing. Because when I was dating,
Speaker 1: and I was thinking about this when I was in
Speaker 1: my twenties, for gen X, dating wasn't really a thing.
Speaker 1: We just kind of bumped into people. Like all my
Speaker 1: relationships in my twenties are like you bumped into pople
Speaker 1: started hanging out. Dating apps have certainly obviously made a
Speaker 1: more American in my mind, dating much more of a
Speaker 1: widespread thing. But in my thirties I was dating very
Speaker 1: early days of like online dating and stuff, and I
Speaker 1: made that rookie era about dinner more times than I
Speaker 1: should have, and suffering through because I think you're not
Speaker 1: compatible with as many people as you think you are, really,
Speaker 1: but you can overlook most of that if they're hot.
Speaker 1: But sitting through dinner with someone that you have nothing
Speaker 1: to talk about with is yeah. But if you just
Speaker 1: go for a drink, one drink rarely stays at one drink,
Speaker 1: and then sometimes that's good times, but often it's like.
Speaker 2: And you're just having a good time because of how
Speaker 2: much you've drunk, not actually because of that.
Speaker 1: That's true. What do you think. I've got some questions
Speaker 1: for you about this because I've got some rules I
Speaker 1: think about the split bills because in this list there
Speaker 1: are like three different ideas about split bills, right, I
Speaker 1: think you should always split bills until you know a person,
Speaker 1: because if you don't know them, and particularly in the
Speaker 1: way the world is now, do they think that buying
Speaker 1: you dinner puts you in there? You know?
Speaker 2: I hate the power dynamic, whether it's dating or friendship
Speaker 2: or even professionally. I don't like the power dynamic of
Speaker 2: somebody having paid for me because whether or not this
Speaker 2: is what they mean by it, I feel like I
Speaker 2: owe them something.
Speaker 1: It's interesting because I was hearing and I know that
Speaker 1: he's a bit controversial on this, but you know, Scott
Speaker 1: Galloway has written this book about men. He's a big
Speaker 1: American kind of influencer, business guy, podcast host. He says
Speaker 1: men should, or he's told his sons always pay for
Speaker 1: dates because ultimately men always make more money because of
Speaker 1: the whole like you know, maternity tax, and so he's like,
Speaker 1: it's your duty as a good man to spend that money.
Speaker 1: I don't agree, but also I think always split until
Speaker 1: you know them. Then once you know them and you're comfortable,
Speaker 1: then sometimes they can treat you and sometimes you can
Speaker 1: treat them, and that's fun.
Speaker 2: I reckon the rule is, if you are on a
Speaker 2: first date with a man that you know there will
Speaker 2: be no second date, you are absolutely certain there will
Speaker 2: be no second date, insist on paying for half. I
Speaker 2: always felt really bad when they paid and then I
Speaker 2: went home and I was like, thank you, but like,
Speaker 2: I know there's not going to be another one. It
Speaker 2: just feels like you've left. There's an issue with the
Speaker 2: equilibrium of the universe or something. So I think in
Speaker 2: that case, if they're going to pay the first one,
Speaker 2: then you can pay the second one because you want
Speaker 2: to see them again. The rule that I remember hearing
Speaker 2: this so often when I was dating, and I rejected it,
Speaker 2: and I rejected it, and then when things were right,
Speaker 2: I went, it's one hundred percent true is when it's right,
Speaker 2: you will feel calm, not anxious. If someone likes you,
Speaker 2: you'll know, and if they don't, you'll be confused.
Speaker 1: One hundred and on that. Also, if they want to,
Speaker 1: they will. They will plud date, text you back, and
Speaker 1: you won't have to second guess. I think that it
Speaker 1: sounds brutal, but it's true. It's the truest of all
Speaker 1: the sex and the city isms. He's just not that
Speaker 1: into you. And it goes both ways. If you want
Speaker 1: to you will. If you want to textbaut you will.
Speaker 1: If you want to make the dates, you will. Like
Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be a one way street. But
Speaker 1: there's way too many excuses for like when people are
Speaker 1: just not interested. Yeah, I want to know your opinion
Speaker 1: on this one because this is not really in my
Speaker 1: dating world. But leave on your texting read receipts. Oh,
Speaker 1: I don't. If they freak out about being left on
Speaker 1: red for less than twenty four hours, they are unlikely
Speaker 1: to respect your time. What do you think about that?
Speaker 2: See, I think these like technological ones are just so
Speaker 2: specific to different people in their own context and that
Speaker 2: sort of thing. I do believe that you're right, Holly.
Speaker 2: If somebody wants to pursue a relationship with you, they
Speaker 2: won't leave you on red for twenty four hours, like then,
Speaker 2: They're not going to do that unless there's a family.
Speaker 2: And maybe he's a surgeon. Yeah, and he's got like
Speaker 2: a really the problem, ye problem, and he can't reply
Speaker 2: right now and you need to relax. Yeah, Well that's
Speaker 2: what I was going to say. The one that I
Speaker 2: probably liked the most, and that feels like it's coming
Speaker 2: up a lot in life right now was Rule thirty,
Speaker 2: which is presence, and it says, don't try to reenact movies.
Speaker 2: You are not in a movie. This is your life.
Speaker 2: Just try to be present, be kind, and be yourself.
Speaker 2: Did it make you think of Meredith? Obviously it made
Speaker 2: me think of Meredith's right, because there is a couple
Speaker 2: Luke and Mel, and Mel wanted the notebook the notebook,
Speaker 2: and she can't want the note no, and she wanted
Speaker 2: Bradley Cooper at the aisle and when just a mix
Speaker 2: up a film. Lu was just Luke. She was like
Speaker 2: this suck yeah, And I'm like, you're not in a movie,
Speaker 2: and honestly, you're not giving movie right now, you're giving
Speaker 2: a bit cranky. That's friendly.
Speaker 1: She wants to be in the movie, but I have
Speaker 1: to make it effort. No, and the eternal when you should.
Speaker 2: Have sex, okay, there is no rule there. There is
Speaker 2: no rule about this. You can have sex on the
Speaker 2: first date, you can have sex on the twentieth date.
Speaker 2: It will not impact whether or not the relationship goes forward.
Speaker 2: This is in my own life, in all my research,
Speaker 2: and of course from watching so many seasons have married
Speaker 2: at first sight. Having sex too soon can go wrong,
Speaker 2: waiting too long can go wrong. I just think, if
Speaker 2: the chemistry is there, go for it.
Speaker 1: I have sex when you want to. If you like
Speaker 1: the yurn, drag it out. If you really just want
Speaker 1: to get into it, get into it. Like I think,
Speaker 1: it's an individual.
Speaker 2: Sport that probably if you're in a long term relationship,
Speaker 2: every rule about human behavior and human decency will be broken. Yes,
Speaker 2: it will be better. That's what relationships are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are some rules that are very important. How
Speaker 1: do they talk about their X that came up a
Speaker 1: lot in the office. If you go on an early
Speaker 1: date and they slag off their ex, get out of there.
Speaker 1: Their X might be the word person in the world,
Speaker 1: but you'll find that out if they go in with
Speaker 1: that early That happened to me once. I was on
Speaker 1: a date in a young char restaurant with this guy
Speaker 1: and he started eating this really hot chili and he
Speaker 1: said one time his ex girlfriend really hated chili, and
Speaker 1: because she was such a bit, she put lots of
Speaker 1: it in her food. Okay, so you're a crazy, but
Speaker 1: I was out of there. And the other is if
Speaker 1: you are in an environment like a bar or a restaurant,
Speaker 1: how do they treat the staff. I know it's a cliche,
Speaker 1: but it has never steered me wrong. It has never
Speaker 1: steered me wrong. Someone who is rude, dismissive complains immediately
Speaker 1: on an early date dickhead every time.
Speaker 2: Which I think links to another rule, which is values
Speaker 2: over interests. So it's okay if you sit there and
Speaker 2: you go he's really into rock climbing, never going to read,
Speaker 2: and he's never going to read my Jane Eyre. That's fine.
Speaker 2: It's just the value alignment, which I think what people
Speaker 2: say are their values and what are actually their values
Speaker 2: aren't often the same thing. And the only thing that
Speaker 2: will reveal that is time, and it could be six
Speaker 2: months on the track. But little indicators like that, like
Speaker 2: how they speak to even the person who drops off
Speaker 2: of Berretes, like even the way that they interact there.
Speaker 2: I just reckon. It's very, very tomb.
Speaker 1: It's always a tell less of a tell. But in
Speaker 1: our office group one somebody said I don't date only children.
Speaker 2: That was a popular, wasn't it.
Speaker 1: That's not a thing you can say. And then and
Speaker 1: then people were like hold on, and then they're like no, no,
Speaker 1: I mean guys. And then there's a guy like oh
Speaker 1: but that's I'm like, you gotta watch out with that stuff.
Speaker 2: I like it when people are really specific. The first
Speaker 2: one is like, I don't date and she just had
Speaker 2: three professions.
Speaker 1: Was personal trainers, real estate agents. Like okay, that is
Speaker 1: experienced speaking right there.
Speaker 2: My only other dating rule is to pluck your chin
Speaker 2: hair before you go on a date because it hits
Speaker 2: if it hits the light. It's my wedding anniverse three today.
Speaker 2: Do you think it's sexy?
Speaker 1: Beyon?
Speaker 2: It put a little bow on it. At least straight
Speaker 2: in it. Give me, I think it's gone.
Speaker 1: You've never Oh my god, you too. They're like grooming
Speaker 1: each other like chimps over here.
Speaker 2: Yeah I think I got it really Yeah. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: haven't been able to feel it. I would have liked
Speaker 2: to get it myself, because just to have a look
Speaker 2: at it, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I know, likew she's looking about it. Yeah, it's like,
Speaker 2: is it great?
Speaker 1: Bad? I just need to know in a moment what
Speaker 1: two iconic editors sitting down together told us about intergenerational
Speaker 1: office politics.
Speaker 4: Out louders, it's me and I'm interrupting your Friday out loud,
Speaker 4: no News Fix to fill you in on what we
Speaker 4: talked about in our subscriber episodes this week. On Tuesday,
Speaker 4: we talked about Wuthering Heights and what we thought of
Speaker 4: the movie. Listen to this before you go see it
Speaker 4: if you haven't already, and listen to it if you
Speaker 4: have seen it to hear your views confirmed. On Thursday's episode,
Speaker 4: we had a great talk about Angelina Jolie's new reported
Speaker 4: boyfriend and the people who think she's too old for him,
Speaker 4: and it turned into a really interesting conversation about.
Speaker 1: Women's Faces true story.
Speaker 4: So if you're not already a subscriber, follow the link
Speaker 4: in the show notes and you can listen to both
Speaker 4: of those conversations right now.
Speaker 1: So too Vogue editors sat down for an interview and
Speaker 1: it became a perfect representation of a generational office divide.
Speaker 1: On the surface of things, Chloe mirl the new boss
Speaker 1: of Vogue, is an absolute boss, right. She's like the
Speaker 1: editorial director. She's very cool, she's got famous parents, did
Speaker 1: a Dior She has recently been installed in Anna Wintur's
Speaker 1: old job. Anna Wintaur aka Miranda Priestley about to be
Speaker 1: back in the culture in a big way with Devil Wears.
Speaker 1: Prior to Anna Wintour has not, however, retired or gone anywhere.
Speaker 1: She is still at Vogue too. She is what is
Speaker 1: called Global Chief Content Officer for Conde Nast and Global
Speaker 1: Editorial Director of Vogue.
Speaker 2: So basically, so May she's just done that scene where
Speaker 2: she goes, I'm going to give myself a new title.
Speaker 1: Yeh, she has. So she's still there, but she's not
Speaker 1: the boss boss anymore. Of the magazine day to day
Speaker 1: and the brand day to day, that's Chloe. So they
Speaker 1: sit down for this interview with The New York Times.
Speaker 1: It's all video, and Anna Wintour looks the way that
Speaker 1: Anna Wintour always looks, which is that she's wearing giant
Speaker 1: sunglasses inside, which is just beginning to look stranger and
Speaker 1: stranger and stranger.
Speaker 2: She has seventy six It looks anti social.
Speaker 1: Anna coat and boots and Chloe mirl and they sit
Speaker 1: there and they talk a little bit about, you know
Speaker 1: how it's all going at Vogue. So far, so unrelatable, right,
Speaker 1: But the video went viral for a reason that has
Speaker 1: less to do with fancy shoes and more to do
Speaker 1: with how different generations represent in the workplace. This is
Speaker 1: the bit that got everyone talking magazine budgets right in
Speaker 1: this day and age. And when I say magazine, I
Speaker 1: mean obviously Vogue exists on all platforms now, podcasts, social,
Speaker 1: but they're famously not what they were back in the nineties.
Speaker 1: Everyone was being flown around the world to launch a lipstick.
Speaker 1: There'd be like five supermodels on a shoot in Tahiti,
Speaker 1: and then they'd spike it because it wasn't quite right,
Speaker 1: like they were burning money, right. It was a wild time,
Speaker 1: and so the New York Times interviewer asks Chloe, what
Speaker 1: would you do with a ninety style budget at Vogue?
Speaker 1: And this is what she says, sitting next to her boss.
Speaker 5: You've got me excited thinking about this now, sort of
Speaker 5: what would I do? I would build a whole new
Speaker 5: podcast studio. I would pay everyone thirty percent more. I
Speaker 5: would make sure the social team had more people on
Speaker 5: it because they're working all the time. I would have
Speaker 5: our app staffed more fully.
Speaker 1: But to be clear, but we.
Speaker 6: Have a very healthy budget at Vogue, and how we
Speaker 6: use it and use our resources as constantly changing depending
Speaker 6: on the moment. Okay, last question, the last time you
Speaker 6: felt nervous about thirty minutes ago before this interview?
Speaker 4: Oh for me too.
Speaker 6: I don't get nervous.
Speaker 1: Anna doesn't get nervous.
Speaker 2: I resent you for making me watch that. I found
Speaker 2: it so painful.
Speaker 1: The vibe on that, don't you think right? Is that
Speaker 1: Anna Wintour was like calm down poppy dog the whole time.
Speaker 1: Now I hesitate to ask this question because I used
Speaker 1: to be both of your bosses at a certain point.
Speaker 1: But when you watch this, did you hard relate to
Speaker 1: being like new and enthusiastic in an office environment? And
Speaker 1: bumping into the old guard.
Speaker 2: A little bit. I think there are a few things
Speaker 2: at play, but the overwhelming sense I got watching this
Speaker 2: video was Chloe's baut to Lizza Job.
Speaker 1: I don't feel good.
Speaker 2: I don't feel good about it. I don't think Anna
Speaker 2: is sold on her an. I can see that Chloe
Speaker 2: went out for drinks a little while ago. She tells
Speaker 2: a story about how she put the March issue together.
Speaker 2: Anna said it was great, and then at the last
Speaker 2: minute she pulled her in and was like, where's you
Speaker 2: in all of this? And she was like, I was
Speaker 2: so grateful for the feedback. No, you weren't. You went
Speaker 2: and got a drink with your friends and you went.
Speaker 2: Anna clearly always hated it. At the last minute, She's
Speaker 2: making me redo the entire thing. She's a psycho bitch,
Speaker 2: like you said all of those things. This relationship is
Speaker 2: very complicated, and I think that it's generational, yes, but
Speaker 2: the biggest difference is that one of you has been
Speaker 2: doing it for thirty seven years and one of you
Speaker 2: has been doing it for five months. And it's an
Speaker 2: incredibly generous but also taxing thing to do to train someone.
Speaker 2: Where do you begin to teach someone what you've learned
Speaker 2: over all of those decades. Chloe probably is naive and idealistic.
Speaker 2: And the way she was talking about budgets and oh
Speaker 2: bless them, I love so many thoughts.
Speaker 1: So you used to manage people clak, right, So you
Speaker 1: were so Chloe.
Speaker 2: It was like watching you next to me at the
Speaker 2: same time.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 1: So the thing is about Chloe is that she's worked
Speaker 1: at Forger really long time. But she started as an assistant.
Speaker 2: Worked away, started from the bottom, so.
Speaker 1: She's done all the jobs, right, So she is still
Speaker 1: very much thinking like a worker, not a boss. That's
Speaker 1: one of the things you and anyone who moved up
Speaker 1: the chain at some point went from a work to
Speaker 1: a boss. But you have been on both sides of
Speaker 1: this because you're next to me, yes, Claire, because Claire
Speaker 1: used to be just for context, she used to be
Speaker 1: the editor in chief of Mama Maya. But also you
Speaker 1: had young journals coming into you being like I should
Speaker 1: get paid twice as much and why don't we fund
Speaker 1: this more and why can't we blah blah blah. So
Speaker 1: you know both sides of this. What did you feel.
Speaker 2: Watching I had two major thoughts. One was I have
Speaker 2: to be completely honest. When Chloe gave that answer, I thought,
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's leadership. There's no strategy there,
Speaker 2: like just saying I want to pay people thirty percent
Speaker 2: more and get a bigger social team and build a
Speaker 2: better podcast.
Speaker 1: You do make sure your workers like you, though.
Speaker 2: It makes staff. Yeah, it's exactly what your staff are
Speaker 2: going to want to hear. That would have been my
Speaker 2: answer when I first started as editor in chief. But
Speaker 2: over time you realize that it's sort of got to
Speaker 2: be bigger picture than that, Like you can still want
Speaker 2: all of those things. But Anna would have been having
Speaker 2: an annurs thinking what about the brand? What like? What
Speaker 2: about any of that is actually making us more profitable?
Speaker 2: What about any of that is actually special?
Speaker 1: Team works so hard, which they do.
Speaker 2: I will defend Chloe because she has If you look
Speaker 2: at her career trajectory, she's someone who came up through
Speaker 2: social media. See Anna has a and this was so
Speaker 2: mayor coded. In the first ten seconds, she just goes
Speaker 2: she's not a fashion obsessive. I was like, just Chloe,
Speaker 2: know's you. Chloe is like I quite like fashion.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And also she was the editor of Vugue before
Speaker 1: she was the director so she does know a bit
Speaker 1: about fashion. Yes, that put the other bit that I'd
Speaker 1: love your thoughts because I think this is generational. Is
Speaker 1: when they talk a little bit about how Chloe's got kids,
Speaker 1: Anna's kind of like, yes, it's very important you should
Speaker 1: definite only prioritize your family, and You're just thinking bullshit.
Speaker 1: There is a certain kind of boss who will be like, yes,
Speaker 1: it's very important that you are there for those children,
Speaker 1: but I still expect you to work till nine pm,
Speaker 1: and I will still be messaging you at bath time.
Speaker 1: And that was the vibe.
Speaker 2: Man, Yes, may I suggest you get a full time
Speaker 2: nanny if you want to keep this job. But what
Speaker 2: I thought was interesting about that was Chloe saying like,
Speaker 2: it's so important for me to be available for people
Speaker 2: on the Vogue team and to my kids and my
Speaker 2: husband and my mother. And I thought that is the
Speaker 2: difference between millennials and the Anna Winters of the world,
Speaker 2: which is and I'm sort of torn on it because
Speaker 2: on the one hand, yes, there is this idea of
Speaker 2: bringing your whole self to work and to every aspect
Speaker 2: of your life. But I also thought, Chloe, a man
Speaker 2: doesn't have to say that. A man in a leadership
Speaker 2: position doesn't have to say I bring all of myself
Speaker 2: to my mother, because in a business context, I don't care.
Speaker 2: But there's also something something true about that, Like I
Speaker 2: thought it was very millennial coded, which was she was
Speaker 2: sitting there buzzing with this phrenetic energy of just like
Speaker 2: a woman who is dealing with little kids and who
Speaker 2: is dealing with a very very big job, and talking
Speaker 2: about I don't want to be intimidating when I go
Speaker 2: and pick my from school, and you can tell that.
Speaker 2: Anna Winter was like, why don't you want to be
Speaker 2: intimidating and.
Speaker 1: Why do you think I'm sitting here at these ridiculous sunclass.
Speaker 2: And Anna really didn't like when Chloe talked about her
Speaker 2: kid's lego. Okay, there was a bit where Chloe says,
Speaker 2: you know, we're building this incredible lego in our after
Speaker 2: Anna is basically like kids are important, and you can
Speaker 2: tell she doesn't mean. Chloe is like, my kid is
Speaker 2: building this lego, and Anna walks out of the room.
Speaker 2: It's just like, oh, sorry, I don't give a shit
Speaker 2: about your flash to an image of the lego, and
Speaker 2: I was like, that's because Anna vomited and left the
Speaker 2: room and leg She's like, went less lego, more work.
Speaker 2: But on the other hand, the thing that I that
Speaker 2: really struck me about this was I don't think there
Speaker 2: is anything more annoying than the feeling that you're an
Speaker 2: expert in something and you're sitting next to somebody less
Speaker 2: experienced and bear talking. It's one of the worst annoying
Speaker 2: things so well right, and yet that is the only
Speaker 2: way a workplace evolves, That is the only way progress happens.
Speaker 2: That is the only way a brand like Vogue survives
Speaker 2: because no offense and a winterur but we do need
Speaker 2: to pass.
Speaker 1: And she would say that's exactly what she's doing. And
Speaker 1: the thing that's interesting because when you have been somewhere
Speaker 1: a long time, and you've been a boss a long time,
Speaker 1: you do have to sit there and they'll say I
Speaker 1: think we should all pay everyone better, and you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: I never thought of that. It is that kind of
Speaker 1: an idea that is infuriating, but at the same time,
Speaker 1: thank God for that energy, because I think that there
Speaker 1: is a certain amount of recognition what she's trying to
Speaker 1: say there is I'm recognizing that, yes, I'm the figurehead,
Speaker 1: but all these people are doing all the work and
Speaker 1: out of window was like, that's not how we work
Speaker 1: around here. You are the figurehead and you get all
Speaker 1: of it. I thought it was really interesting. It's interesting
Speaker 1: about the reaction to this because a lot of articles
Speaker 1: have talked about how awkward it was, how maybe there's
Speaker 1: a succession problem at Vogue, because, to be clear, and
Speaker 1: I doesn't look at her, Anna did pick Chloe, and
Speaker 1: one of the ways to read this not to dis Chloe.
Speaker 1: She's obviously a very accomplished person. She picked her, and
Speaker 1: one of the ways to look at this is she
Speaker 1: picked somebody who she could kind of push around a bit.
Speaker 1: But it's interesting to me that they agreed to do
Speaker 1: that interview, that they agreed to have it filmed, that
Speaker 1: they didn't request a serious edit. She is a a wind.
Speaker 1: So clearly Anna Winter is quite comfortable with the way
Speaker 1: that she appeared in that, which is I think that's
Speaker 1: the other generational thing is like Ice queen scary boss
Speaker 1: is fine, and Anna's boomer to be clear, she's seventy six,
Speaker 1: Like she's you know, and I would be lying on
Speaker 1: a beach cout my money if I am. Anyway, that's
Speaker 1: a very okay vibe for that. It's like, I don't
Speaker 1: want to hear your problems about whether or not you
Speaker 1: need to get home to play with Lego. Whereas Chloe
Speaker 1: was it pains to say I care about my staff.
Speaker 1: I care about whether or not they can pay their bills,
Speaker 1: and that is a very different generation.
Speaker 2: There was Yes, I don't want to be intimidating. I
Speaker 2: want to be likable and I want to be relatable.
Speaker 2: That seemed to be central to her brand of leadership
Speaker 2: was that she really wanted to be liked by everyone
Speaker 2: in her life and keep them all happy. And whether
Speaker 2: that gets beaten out of you over years of doing it.
Speaker 2: I don't think that that pressure has always been on
Speaker 2: bosses or managers. I feel as though there's something maybe
Speaker 2: a bit new about that. But she was focusing on
Speaker 2: being personable and full of energy and enthusiasm, whereas Anna
Speaker 2: Wintour was like, no, that's not what I've ever been about.
Speaker 1: I love what particular thing I love about that. In
Speaker 1: terms of the ice Queen is so that. At another
Speaker 1: bit in the interview, they asked Chloe Mile who she'd
Speaker 1: most like to sit next to at the mcparlor. She says,
Speaker 1: Meryl streep, which is a great answer, because that is
Speaker 1: Miranda Priestley. Anna went to a has a little as
Speaker 1: much as Anna wentor would ever chuckle. She almost chuckles.
Speaker 1: I think she has no problem with the Miranda Priestley stereotype,
Speaker 1: that she is hardcore, a task mascut, an unfeeling person
Speaker 1: who you know, couldn't remember her husband's name. I think
Speaker 1: she's fine with it, you know.
Speaker 2: And by the way, I am very staunch on the
Speaker 2: fact that I think our ideas of leadership need to
Speaker 2: be broader, and that that idea of a very narrow,
Speaker 2: intimidating view of leadership needs to be replaced by people
Speaker 2: who are more empathetic and people who have more of
Speaker 2: a three sixty kind of perspective. And i've female leaders
Speaker 2: that you get to be all types. Yeah, there shouldn't
Speaker 2: be one type. And I quite like that they're both
Speaker 2: sitting there, probably resenting each other.
Speaker 1: I like that she has curly hair. I reckon Anna
Speaker 1: would have been like, darling, don't let that happen.
Speaker 2: Anna hated her out. I had to have had so
Speaker 2: many thoughts. I came across a TikTok the other day
Speaker 2: that read, when you finally get a husband and a house.
Speaker 2: That was a text on screen and it was a
Speaker 2: video which like, would be nice, I imagine I know
Speaker 2: exactly husband and a house. And it was a video
Speaker 2: of a woman throwing her boxes just into the garage. Again,
Speaker 2: would be nice to have a garage cardboard box, just
Speaker 2: cardboard boxes, so they will imagine like a cardboard box
Speaker 2: that a package has come in, not folded down, not
Speaker 2: broken down, just tossing it in slow motion into the
Speaker 2: garage and believing in her heart that it is her
Speaker 2: husband's job to fold them down and dispose of them. Now,
Speaker 2: we don't love sexis stereotypes on this podcast. We're about equality,
Speaker 2: we're about feminism. But I'm going to posit a theory
Speaker 2: that this actually might be universal human instinct. We're all
Speaker 2: feminists until there's a job we don't want to do,
Speaker 2: in which case midnight is none of my business. Luca
Speaker 2: has asked me why he puts the bins out, and
Speaker 2: I have said I wouldn't know how. Again, again, would
Speaker 2: be nice to have your own bins to take out.
Speaker 2: We have shared bins. Who takes that? I don't know
Speaker 2: a lovely man man, but you have to take your
Speaker 2: rubbish from your house to put it correct?
Speaker 1: Whose job is that?
Speaker 2: I'm actually great with rubbish, And I have a lot
Speaker 2: of thoughts. How do you know where to put it?
Speaker 2: Are you joking? Wait?
Speaker 1: I mean put it in the red top in or
Speaker 1: the yellow top in.
Speaker 2: But I have a lot of thoughts about this box
Speaker 2: thing because hard can't relate. I'm the box breaker down
Speaker 2: in our household. For a very important reason, my biggest
Speaker 2: fear in life is getting in trouble, especially publicly, especially
Speaker 2: by strangers. Yeah, Jesse, I got in trouble recently in public.
Speaker 2: You were there? Yeah, I don't stop thinking about it.
Speaker 1: Well, can we hear that story? Please?
Speaker 2: Oh God? Okay, you know I've been I've been scared
Speaker 2: to say it because I'm worried that anyone listening will
Speaker 2: have been there and will be on the side of
Speaker 2: the person who got me in trouble. But we're at
Speaker 2: an mm MEMA concert and I was having a lovely
Speaker 2: time with Matilda and we were dancing, but a lot
Speaker 2: of people were sitting down and I stood up for
Speaker 2: one song to dance. I think it was Jellyfish Blob.
Speaker 2: Mantilda stood up and dance. It is her favorite and
Speaker 2: a woman came up behind me and pat me on
Speaker 2: the shoulder and said, there is a scene of children
Speaker 2: who can't see you because you have been standing up
Speaker 2: the entire time, which she hadn't. And it was also
Speaker 2: a lot of people were standing up. The next song,
Speaker 2: every man in the audience was man in the audience
Speaker 2: was invited to stand up by Emma. Memma. Whichever dad
Speaker 2: had the best dance won a five hundred dollars Bunnings voucher.
Speaker 2: And I just took a video and I just sent
Speaker 2: a message to Rory being like the dad's get a
Speaker 2: Bunnings voucher, mum's getting yelled at. I'm still so mad, darling.
Speaker 1: You're short. I've been blocking anybody's view for very long
Speaker 1: and I was hunched. That's not fair.
Speaker 2: Tilda wasn't blocking anyone's view anyway. I just can't stop
Speaker 2: thinking about it. But it's my biggest fear getting in trouble.
Speaker 2: So Rory and I both fast and loose people with
Speaker 2: like we don't pay attention to detail to anything, And
Speaker 2: so I know if he does the boxes, he will
Speaker 2: just kind of shove him. That's how I do the boxing. Yes,
Speaker 2: but I'm like, I don't want to get in trouble.
Speaker 2: So I get all the sticky tape off because I'm like,
Speaker 2: I don't want to get in trouble for not getting
Speaker 2: the sticky tape and then ruining all the recycling. So
Speaker 2: I get all the sticky tape off. But the most
Speaker 2: important thing is in case I've made a mistake, I
Speaker 2: remove the label that has our name yes, and I
Speaker 2: don't identifying yes, because I'm like, what if somebody looked
Speaker 2: at them? Oh, and I can see their names and
Speaker 2: their address, and then they'll knock on our door and
Speaker 2: say what's wrong with you? So I do it all
Speaker 2: and then actually late at night, if our bin's full,
Speaker 2: I go to the other bins on the street. Of
Speaker 2: course you do, and put it in what we do,
Speaker 2: which I also have a question.
Speaker 1: That's not allowed?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Is it?
Speaker 2: Like is it not a loud ethically or legally?
Speaker 1: The best time, the best time that that is definitely
Speaker 1: not allowed is around the Christmas period when everybody's bins full,
Speaker 1: but you're looking all week to see who's bin looks
Speaker 1: less full, who you can smuggle.
Speaker 2: All your Surely it's allowed on midnight as all society,
Speaker 2: What are we meant to do when the bins' problem.
Speaker 1: I mean, I do sneak my stuff in other people's bins.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but you know I live next door to
Speaker 1: some lovely retired people. They don't make as much mess
Speaker 1: as we do, so I need to distribute the mess. However,
Speaker 1: and I appreciate your story, Claire, because I also don't
Speaker 1: like getting in trouble. However, I hate breaking down boxes.
Speaker 1: And the reason when I saw this video it made
Speaker 1: me laugh out loud is because Brent will say all
Speaker 1: the time, he'll go to the little recycling bit of
Speaker 1: our bin what we have in the kitchen before we
Speaker 1: take it out to the big bin, and he'll be like,
Speaker 1: do you know that you're meant to break down the
Speaker 1: boxes because I've just thrown it in there every time
Speaker 1: it's in the whole thing Like no, I mean always like, yes,
Speaker 1: you gotta break down the boxes, and I'm just like, oh,
Speaker 1: out of the box. They're fun is over.
Speaker 2: This is when you have to go brand show me
Speaker 2: hand and then you have him show you and then
Speaker 2: you make a big fuss about how good he is
Speaker 2: and you say you're so handsome when you break down
Speaker 2: the Yes, my favorite comment on this video was. I
Speaker 2: asked my wife one time what she was doing with
Speaker 2: all the boxes in the garage, because there was just
Speaker 2: all these completely assembled boxes in the garage, and she
Speaker 2: looked me dead in the face and said, they're ready
Speaker 2: to go out whenever, which I think is exactly right. Well,
Speaker 2: when are you're gonna break it down and put them
Speaker 2: in them? So confused? I've done my bit exactly?
Speaker 6: Is that?
Speaker 1: The way this falls into like typical gender stereotypes is
Speaker 1: people used to say, well, she does the cleaning because
Speaker 1: she really likes it, yes, which is true for about
Speaker 1: zero point one percent of the female population. She does
Speaker 1: the fucking cleaning because she's expected to do the cleaning.
Speaker 1: There must be some if we are playing along these
Speaker 1: straight gender roles, there must be some men who love
Speaker 1: breaking down my hair out in the garage, having the
Speaker 1: time of their life breaking down those boxes. But most
Speaker 1: people in general hate breaking down boxes. And if only
Speaker 1: we could train the doc Bak children.
Speaker 2: Or worst Job and Luca, I am convinced, has absolutely
Speaker 2: no idea how to get a dinner in a cover.
Speaker 2: That can be my job. I'm happy to do that,
Speaker 2: but boxes none of my business. It's time for our
Speaker 2: weekly recommendations from a new pair of pants, to a course,
Speaker 2: to something that might just change your life.
Speaker 1: Vibes, ideas, atmosphere, something actual, something fun.
Speaker 2: This is my best recommendation. It's Friday, so we want
Speaker 2: to help set you up with our very best recommendations.
Speaker 2: And I'm a bit ashamed by mine today because I'm
Speaker 2: on the recorders. I'm a little bit anti ai, a
Speaker 2: bit of a light eye. I know there are environmentals.
Speaker 2: I'm friction maxing all the rest of it. However, this
Speaker 2: week I am moving house, and as previously discussed on
Speaker 2: this podcast.
Speaker 1: I had a lot of boxes to break down, a lot.
Speaker 2: So true, that's why I can't be at home. Yeah
Speaker 2: what do you do with those? Oh Facebook marketplaces?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you can pick them up. So I've previously
Speaker 2: discussed this that I can't picture things in my head.
Speaker 2: So when I look at a living room and I go, okay,
Speaker 2: so we have our couch, and we have our coffee table,
Speaker 2: and we have our blah. I mean, don't get me
Speaker 2: started on dimensions, but actually picturing what it looks like,
Speaker 2: I can't do it. So I've always been when I
Speaker 2: move house, very into Pinterest. I like looking at things
Speaker 2: that are kind of a similar setup, and I go,
Speaker 2: what would look nice here? And it's all time consuming.
Speaker 2: I get it wrong a lot. Claire and I remember
Speaker 2: years ago we bought a couch that was too big
Speaker 2: for the room. You buy something that you think looks lovely,
Speaker 2: and then you go, that's hideous screen couch in here
Speaker 2: doesn't look nice. I've been served ads for these AI
Speaker 2: tools that do it for you, and I just went
Speaker 2: screw it. I'm going to spend an afternoon teaching myself
Speaker 2: how to use this. So you're putting interior designers out
Speaker 2: of work, is what you're telling designer.
Speaker 1: I wasn't.
Speaker 2: I was just gonna make mistakes. So I used all
Speaker 2: of them to work out what was the absolute best,
Speaker 2: because there is a big difference between like the free
Speaker 2: models and the PAYE tell me what you tell them. Okay,
Speaker 2: So I take a photo of walked into this living room,
Speaker 2: which is just an interesting shape. Right. So I take
Speaker 2: a photo of the living room. I send it to
Speaker 2: my robot and I say, this is a living room.
Speaker 2: Oh it makes you describe your style like, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: I don't know what you said.
Speaker 2: I said, modern minimalist, Scandinavian.
Speaker 1: I don't know what because I always find that interesting
Speaker 1: when they asked that, because I tried to do this
Speaker 1: with a bathroom thing, because we're thinking about doing a
Speaker 1: bathroom that's the laundry turn into a bathroom. And it
Speaker 1: said what style, and I said beachy.
Speaker 6: Word.
Speaker 1: It was just like starfish fish everywhere. I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: I need to know the language anyway.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if I don't say minimalist, it has like eight throws.
Speaker 2: I don't like too much of my face. So I
Speaker 2: was like, okay, do this. It came up like its
Speaker 2: idea of where to put the couch in this room
Speaker 2: the way that it was able to because then I
Speaker 2: had to go shopping for a few things. It could
Speaker 2: calculate the dimensions, it could show me how it will
Speaker 2: look with this piece of furniture. It suggested a color
Speaker 2: of couch that I would never have imagined anyway. So
Speaker 2: I've used all of these tools. The best one that
Speaker 2: I have come across is actually chat GPT the paid version,
Speaker 2: and my friends is actually quite expensive. It's forty five
Speaker 2: dollars a month. It's forty five dollars a month, but
Speaker 2: and it's not I've've got.
Speaker 1: All my favorite sexy shows on it.
Speaker 2: No, it doesn't exactly. I was like, that is more
Speaker 2: than my Netflix. What you would do is you want
Speaker 2: to do your bathroom, just get it for a few weeks,
Speaker 2: do everything you need to do. It is unfortunately worth
Speaker 2: your freezing. Can you tax deducted? Well? I can because
Speaker 2: I just mentioned it on this show. Yeah, so I
Speaker 2: just mentioned it. Pulling back you say that sounds like
Speaker 2: a great idea, and Claire, you say, I'm about to download,
Speaker 2: and I think we're right. Okay, I think it has
Speaker 2: other exciting things. But it means that you can keep
Speaker 2: uploading images. And also I didn't realize this, but a
Speaker 2: lot of furniture shops now if you walk in and
Speaker 2: you look at a couch that you like, you can
Speaker 2: scan your room and it'll put the couch in there. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You know, I wonder if it ever negs you, because
Speaker 1: you know how I was talking about when I was
Speaker 1: using the robots about my protein and take and stuff,
Speaker 1: and sometimes it's like we haven't tried very hard.
Speaker 2: Today.
Speaker 1: One of my friends has been using chat to GBT
Speaker 1: for her house. Yeah, and she'll say to the robot, like,
Speaker 1: what would this look like with the green wall and
Speaker 1: the robot's like, are you sure it's yes, and then
Speaker 1: the robot gives her a green wall and then my
Speaker 1: friend egsit back and it's like, that looks awful if
Speaker 1: you've not got a better shade of green than that.
Speaker 1: And then the robot's like, fine.
Speaker 2: What's horrifying is how quickly you become quite mean to
Speaker 2: the robot. So I was using a free version for
Speaker 2: ages because I didn't want to pay, and I was like,
Speaker 2: please just move the couch back and ninch, move it, ninch,
Speaker 2: and it was like, I'm going to turn it into
Speaker 2: a curve, not an l shape. Just started hallucinating, yeah,
Speaker 2: and it started throwing coffee tables on the ceiling, and
Speaker 2: I was like, I've had it with you.
Speaker 1: Do we think how you talk to your robot is
Speaker 1: going to be one of the dating rules in the
Speaker 1: next round of them.
Speaker 2: That's not going to reflect well on me. I got
Speaker 2: very impatient. I started not using full sentences. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I like using it like a search engine. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: I doesn't appreciate it. Claire, what's your recommendation? My recommendation
Speaker 2: doesn't put real people work. I'd just like to say,
Speaker 2: so mine is the rider's studio. We have officially entered
Speaker 2: the Year of the fire Horse, and the out Louders
Speaker 2: are a creative bunch. So if you've ever wanted to
Speaker 2: write a novel, or a screenplay or a short story,
Speaker 2: I have this reco because I get messages from people
Speaker 2: all the time because I must have written about on
Speaker 2: substack or something that I use this course, and so
Speaker 2: people messed me all the times. I thought, I'm just
Speaker 2: gonna say what it is. So it's called The Rider's
Speaker 2: Studio and it's based in Sydney. But all the courses
Speaker 2: I've done have been online, and I've done three of them.
Speaker 2: I've done an Unlocking Creativity course, which I would recommend
Speaker 2: to anyone no matter what industry you work in. It
Speaker 2: just makes you a better writer. I've done the short
Speaker 2: Story Genre course, and it teaches you how to write
Speaker 2: in genres you might not be familiar with. So I've
Speaker 2: written a fantasy story, the wor I've ever read. Then.
Speaker 2: I have done the novel first Draft course and stick
Speaker 2: to it perfectly because I already had written most of
Speaker 2: my manuscript by then, but some of the tools and
Speaker 2: strategies it holds your hand as you write a whole
Speaker 2: If you're like, I want to write a novel, but
Speaker 2: I don't have the discipline. This will get you your
Speaker 2: eighty thousand one week by week, it takes you, and
Speaker 2: you're with a group.
Speaker 1: And so that's my word.
Speaker 2: But it's like anonymous, like because it's online, you don't
Speaker 2: know who any of the other people are. It's so
Speaker 2: fascinating because you look at other people's writing and you
Speaker 2: think there is a nuggative gold in everything somebody writes,
Speaker 2: like and you see it get stronger, like something like
Speaker 2: writing a screenplay. I would think I don't know where
Speaker 2: to start. I don't know the structure. And this literally,
Speaker 2: week by week you've got a tutor. It's bloody incredible. Also,
Speaker 2: I was going to say that, depending on what you
Speaker 2: do for work, your workplace might cover it as professional
Speaker 2: development or it might be a tax deduction. But I
Speaker 2: just think out louders there are so many great ideas
Speaker 2: and so many creatives in this community that if it's
Speaker 2: one of those things you've always wanted to do, we
Speaker 2: got a year of the horse says I gotta stop
Speaker 2: thinking and we just do it.
Speaker 1: Yes, So that writing courses always frightened me because you
Speaker 1: have to share even though I've written books, I'm like,
Speaker 1: I can't show people.
Speaker 2: And it's real, it's a real early draft. And then
Speaker 2: someone criticizes you and like who even are you?
Speaker 1: And then you read their things like, oh damn it,
Speaker 1: that's really good. Yeah, anyway, great record, Claire. I'm recommending
Speaker 1: something much more basic, a pair of pants, so I
Speaker 1: need I'm in that phase again. I get in it
Speaker 1: all the time where I have no idea what to wear.
Speaker 1: Maybe this is about the shedding the year of the Snake,
Speaker 1: but you know, I'm like, I always wear jeans. I've
Speaker 1: been wearing jeans for years. I love my jeans, my
Speaker 1: cream of jeans, my flairy jeans, blah blah. But I'm
Speaker 1: beginning to go really like we you can't change it up,
Speaker 1: but I don't know what to wear. And then I
Speaker 1: saw in a newsletter from an old friend of mine,
Speaker 1: actually from Joe Elvin. She's a magazine person and an Australian
Speaker 1: magazine person who lives in London. But in her newsletter
Speaker 1: recently she said, this is the best pair of pants
Speaker 1: that ever existed. I was like, okay, and they're from
Speaker 1: Uniclo and they only cost sixty dollars. Get in so
Speaker 1: Mia is gonna laugh so hard because they're barrel legs,
Speaker 1: and she was wearing the barrel leg jeans and trousers
Speaker 1: were cool like two years ago, I think, And now
Speaker 1: the normies like me who do not understand them are
Speaker 1: getting onto these like pared down versions of the barrel leg.
Speaker 1: But I don't care. I'm not cool, I'm not pretending
Speaker 1: to be.
Speaker 2: So what's the widest point on a barrel leg?
Speaker 1: So it's sort of very flattering.
Speaker 2: Midfie went great, it goes down.
Speaker 1: But these are for reasons I don't understand. I mean,
Speaker 1: maybe they're not. I don't know. No one told me differently.
Speaker 1: They are comfortable and flattering, flattering that word we're not
Speaker 1: supposed to use anymore. They're their flattering, then they're probably
Speaker 1: not at all flattering, but the point being you feel
Speaker 1: good in them. So I bought a pair in chocolate brown,
Speaker 1: which is a tricky color because there aren't that many
Speaker 1: colors I feel like I'm wedding with. But they also
Speaker 1: do them in dark gray black cream, like a beige color.
Speaker 1: And the thing that's good about them is they are
Speaker 1: barrel leg but they're not like really barrel So what
Speaker 1: they do is they give you just a hint of
Speaker 1: I look a little bit cooler than I did yesterday
Speaker 1: when I was wearing my tracky pants.
Speaker 2: I need to know about the waist is it?
Speaker 1: It's not a lastic, it's quite high wasted, okay. And
Speaker 1: the thing I like about Uniclo is that they do
Speaker 1: short legs because of us being short people. Whenever I
Speaker 1: buy pants, I often think, well, I'm gonna have to
Speaker 1: get them taken up and that might never happen, and
Speaker 1: then I've just wasted money. And so these ones are
Speaker 1: cut quite short and you can choose a different size
Speaker 1: length and lots of uniclothes pants. So anyway, I bought
Speaker 1: them a brown. I really like them, and so now
Speaker 1: I've also bought them in the cream because I think
Speaker 1: maybe they're my like pathway to like just changing the
Speaker 1: style up a tiny bit. So we'll put a link
Speaker 1: in the show notes, as we will with all our echos.
Speaker 2: Love it.
Speaker 1: That is all we have time for this Friday and
Speaker 1: this week out Louders, thank you so much for being
Speaker 1: here listening to the number one podcast in all of Australia. Gosh,
Speaker 1: you have excellent taste.
Speaker 4: Thank you to you.
Speaker 1: Chleas Stevens for filling in for em VERNA thank you
Speaker 1: and a.
Speaker 2: Big thank you to our team group executive producer Ruth Devine,
Speaker 2: executive producer Sashatanic, our senior audio producer is Leah Porgies,
Speaker 2: video producer Josh Green, and our junior content producer is
Speaker 2: Tessa Kodovich. Bye Bye, Mumma acknowledges the traditional owners of
Speaker 2: the land on which we have recorded this podcast.