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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Maya acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on.

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Speaker 2: Even though it's been my whole life praying the gay

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Speaker 2: away and wanting to be changed. There was something so

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Speaker 2: insidious about the tactics used in this occasion, and I

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Speaker 2: felt so insulted that everything that I was doing, and

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Speaker 2: everything that I'd achieved in life had boiled down to

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Speaker 2: essentially being coerced through trickery into a situation that I

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Speaker 2: had no say in. And I was twenty six.

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Speaker 3: Australian actor Tim Pocock was just twenty three when he

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Speaker 3: was cast as Young Cyclops in X Men Origins Wolverine

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Speaker 3: Landing in Hollywood, opposite Hugh Jackman. But behind the glats

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Speaker 3: and glamour of an international acting career was a young

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Speaker 3: man carrying a deeply buried secret. Adopted at birth, Tim

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Speaker 3: grew up in a devout Catholic family. He was enrolled

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Speaker 3: at Redfield College in Sydney, a school with links to

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Speaker 3: the secretive religious group Opus Day was here his education

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Speaker 3: was shaped by extreme doctrine, fear and a culture of silence.

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Speaker 3: In this conversation, Tim shares what it was like to

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Speaker 3: grow up gay in a world that didn't just reject him,

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Speaker 3: it actively tried to change him. Some of the experiences

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Speaker 3: Tim shares are very personal and intense, so please listen mindfully.

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Speaker 1: Friends.

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Speaker 3: We talk about surviving his teenage years in an environment

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Speaker 3: where queerness was demonized, and how that shame seeped into

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Speaker 3: every part of his life, shaping his relationship with his body,

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Speaker 3: his faith, and his family. He speaks candidly about surviving

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Speaker 3: conversion therapy, wrestling with internalized homophobia, the complicated grief of

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Speaker 3: losing his mother, and the long, painful process of unlearning

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Speaker 3: everything he'd been taught, and how through it all he

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Speaker 3: found the courage to finally live as himself and still

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Speaker 3: keep faith. This is Tim Pocock. Hi, welcome to No Filter.

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Speaker 4: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Are you in prison because it's a very there's a

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Speaker 1: wall behind you that looks foreboding.

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Speaker 2: Now I am no longer in prison. This is ironically

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Speaker 2: what freedom looks like.

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Speaker 1: Oh, how clever.

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Speaker 3: Because of course I have been reading your book, as

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Speaker 3: many will.

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Speaker 1: The Truth Will Set.

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Speaker 3: You Free, which has so many meanings for you that

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Speaker 3: you share with the reader because you are and many

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Speaker 3: people would know you as an actor.

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Speaker 1: My kids know you as Cyclops.

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Speaker 4: That's right, yep.

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Speaker 3: People would know you from home in a way, or

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Speaker 3: as a singer with the Australian Opera when you're a child,

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Speaker 3: many people would know you.

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Speaker 4: From your school, that's right, yep.

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Speaker 3: And your school was a part of the Catholic Church.

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Speaker 1: Are they a cult Opah Stay?

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Speaker 4: That's an interesting one.

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Speaker 2: So I refer to Opus Stay as like a sect

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Speaker 2: within the Catholic Church.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: They're known for their secrecy, but they're also known even

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Speaker 2: within Catholic circles as being particularly conservative in their their views,

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Speaker 2: their methods, and their ideologies as well. But they do

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Speaker 2: like to keep things very sort of hush hush and quiet.

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Speaker 2: When people read the book, they'll obviously encounter a lot

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Speaker 2: of their interesting and unusual practices in how they approach

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Speaker 2: education and religion development, whether that be as a person

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Speaker 2: or spiritually as well, which for me at the time

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Speaker 2: was something that was just normal until I guess I

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Speaker 2: started getting success in the entertainment industry and meeting a

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Speaker 2: more broader spectrum of human and I started to realize

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Speaker 2: that my upbringing was maybe not quite as normal as

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Speaker 2: I thought it. Was, and so when people say words

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Speaker 2: like cult, I always sort of flirt with that, but

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Speaker 2: I never go so far as to say that. I

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Speaker 2: do find when I do explain certain things about that,

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Speaker 2: people will come to their own conclusions. And that is

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Speaker 2: a word that a lot of people will use to

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Speaker 2: describe them.

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Speaker 3: Yes, because your mum, a seminal figure in your life,

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Speaker 3: was a devout Catholic, Yes, and so you'd always been

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Speaker 3: raised a Catholic, and you in fact lived in Ireland

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Speaker 3: for a time, which I consider to be a devoutly

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Speaker 3: Catholic country.

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Speaker 4: Yep. Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: When we lived there, it was a very small country

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Speaker 2: town as well, so very sort of it was sort

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Speaker 2: of its own old world, old school conservative bubble that

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Speaker 2: I was growing up in there. And it was when

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Speaker 2: we left Ireland and came back to Australia that I

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Speaker 2: then was introduced to the op stay world with the

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Speaker 2: school that I went to, which was its own sort

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Speaker 2: of conservative bubble that tried as best as it could

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Speaker 2: to keep the outside world away from us. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: sort of first eighteen years of my life were very

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Speaker 2: much unchecked by reality.

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Speaker 3: Right, and the reality was constructed for you as it

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Speaker 3: is when you're a child by your parents. Tell me

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Speaker 3: a little bit about your mum and your dad.

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Speaker 2: So my mum herself, as we said, very religious person,

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Speaker 2: grew up in the sort of boarding schools system where

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Speaker 2: the teachers were nuns or priests. It was in the

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Speaker 2: Southern Highlands. She was educated, so also a small country town.

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Speaker 2: She's one of nine. Their family, their values at the

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Speaker 2: time were very much against any of the progress or

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Speaker 2: changes that were happening in their own time.

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Speaker 1: Obviously no birth control.

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Speaker 2: Oh of course not no, like even natural family planning

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Speaker 2: is frowned upon. You know, if God wants me to

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Speaker 2: get pregnant, you'll be pregnant and that's will. So of

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Speaker 2: course anything beyond that is an absolute no no, which

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Speaker 2: is also why things like sex education just don't really

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Speaker 2: occur in that world, because they don't want people to

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Speaker 2: know about it.

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Speaker 1: And so you were young, mean when you were living

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Speaker 1: in Ireland.

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Speaker 3: So your family had gone from South Africa to Ireland,

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Speaker 3: to Australia then to Ireland.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I bounced around quite a bit as a kid.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. How old were you in Ireland?

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Speaker 2: So was from about like four until just after I

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Speaker 2: turned seven, So two and a half three years that

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Speaker 2: we were there.

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Speaker 4: I absolutely loved it there.

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Speaker 2: It was such an idyllic, untouched, sort of romantic place

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Speaker 2: to live with, you know, all the farmland and gorgeous

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Speaker 2: views and just a really safe area as well, so

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Speaker 2: you could just be running around in this beautiful countryside

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Speaker 2: as a child and letting your imagination run wild. And

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Speaker 2: to encourage that, you know, you'd literally see centuries old

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Speaker 2: castle ruins in your friend's backyard because that's just the

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Speaker 2: place that it is.

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Speaker 4: See it was.

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Speaker 2: It was gorgeous, It was beautiful, and I really loved it,

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Speaker 2: and it was kind of kind of a shame to leave,

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Speaker 2: to be honest.

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Speaker 3: But you had the pillar of family and the pillar

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Speaker 3: of the church even then, oh absolutely, And that was

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Speaker 3: when you had you had your first little awakening to

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Speaker 3: who you might be attracted to, even as a kid,

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Speaker 3: and kids have all sorts of crushes, but yours was so.

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Speaker 2: Catholic and it was like it was such an innocent attraction.

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Speaker 2: It was just I realized there was this boy that

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Speaker 2: served alta at my local Catholic parish in Crosshaven, which

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Speaker 2: was the name of the small town that we lived

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Speaker 2: in in Ireland, and I just you know, I liked

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Speaker 2: his face, and I liked the look of him, and

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Speaker 2: I just enjoyed like looking at him, and I kind

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Speaker 2: of realized, oh, that's that's how the women in the

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Speaker 2: movies that I watch look at men.

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Speaker 4: I think.

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Speaker 2: I think I'm not meant to be looking at him

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Speaker 2: like that. So it was already this thing that I

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Speaker 2: didn't understand but made me just feel like there was

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Speaker 2: some sort of barrier between me and maybe how I

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Speaker 2: was meant to be.

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Speaker 3: Because your mom, in part of the kind of shunning

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Speaker 3: the worldly world, immersed you very much in a world

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Speaker 3: of old films and stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we were watching My Fair Lady, Sound of Music,

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Speaker 2: King and I, Wizard of Oz, you know, all the

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Speaker 2: Burt Newton classics, who were watching all of those things,

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Speaker 2: when you know, other people were watching Teenage Mutant, Ninja,

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Speaker 2: Turtles and My Girl and the Simpsons. But my mum

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Speaker 2: was very strong about not wanting us to be involved

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Speaker 2: in anything that was modern because she saw modernism as

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Speaker 2: as bad as sort of the corruption of society. So

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Speaker 2: the more that we kind of clung onto the older

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Speaker 2: school ideals the better. So, you know, it did kind

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Speaker 2: of make things really difficult to be able to connect

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Speaker 2: with people because you know, they were watching Power Rangers

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Speaker 2: and they'd have all of the you know, figurines and

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Speaker 2: be playing with that, and I just I wouldn't I

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Speaker 2: wouldn't know what the game was or what they were

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Speaker 2: called or anything like that. And no one really wanted

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Speaker 2: to talk about Eliza Doolittle.

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Speaker 3: So well, when you say way, you're talking about you

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Speaker 3: and your sister. Yes, yeap older or younger sister.

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Speaker 4: So my sister's four years older than me.

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Speaker 2: We're both actually adopted, but not from the same families,

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Speaker 2: so we're not biologically related, but we're always raised as siblings.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I think it's obviously a different experience

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Speaker 2: for everyone. But I think, you know, my sister being heterosexual,

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Speaker 2: and you know, she got engaged super young and married

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Speaker 2: super young, and became a mum super young. She married

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Speaker 2: her She went to Tangara School for Girls, which is

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Speaker 2: the female of the Oprah Stay schools.

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Speaker 4: I went to Redfield College, which is the brother school.

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Speaker 2: Her husband went to that school as well, And for

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Speaker 2: all intents and purposes, they end up sort of being

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Speaker 2: the poster child children for what that kind of community wants,

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Speaker 2: which is boys go to the boys school, girls go

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Speaker 2: to the girls school, they marry one another and then

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Speaker 2: their children go to the schools and it just kind

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Speaker 2: of keeps the bubble alive and unchecked.

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Speaker 3: But these schools are not just any schools really because

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Speaker 3: they've played a significant part in politics because they have

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Speaker 3: a lot of heavy hitters have gone particularly through this

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Speaker 3: microcosm of the Catholic school education system. So Dominic Perrote,

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Speaker 3: who was the premier of New South Wales, he had

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Speaker 3: gone to your school.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, he was a two or three years above me,

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Speaker 2: I believe, and he's got a lot of siblings, so

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Speaker 2: they were at least one every sort of two years

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Speaker 2: peppered throughout the school, so I knew his siblings, and

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Speaker 2: you know, I had a cousin that dated his sister

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Speaker 2: for a while. So yeah, everyone knows everyone, especially back

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Speaker 2: in my day when the schools were a lot younger.

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Speaker 2: The class sizes were twenty to thirty students for an

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Speaker 2: entire grade a whole year, so there was really only

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Speaker 2: two to three hundred students in the whole school, and

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Speaker 2: most of them are from these large families. So it

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Speaker 2: really was this very tight knit, insular world where everyone

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Speaker 2: knows absolutely everyone and everybody's business and all of that. So, yeah,

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Speaker 2: Don Perrote, obviously being a few years older than me

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Speaker 2: doesn't mean that, you know, we had nothing to do

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Speaker 2: with each other. And then of course he became Premier

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Speaker 2: of New South Walese and he was seeking reelection, which

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Speaker 2: was when I first kind of spoke out, And it

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Speaker 2: wasn't anything to sort of directly aim at him, but

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Speaker 2: Louise Milligan was doing a documentary on Four Corners about

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Speaker 2: the op State schooling system and the funding, the government

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Speaker 2: funding that it gets for the education that it provides,

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Speaker 2: and just did a deep dive into sort of how

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Speaker 2: backward and archaic some of those educative principles are within

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Speaker 2: those schools.

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Speaker 3: It's an interesting thing because sometimes coming from a small

225
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Speaker 3: school community can be a great thing, but when you

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Speaker 3: are the square peg in the round hole, it can

227
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Speaker 3: be a terrible thing.

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Speaker 1: And it became a terrible thing for you.

229
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Speaker 4: Yeah, it did.

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Speaker 2: And I think, if anything, that's sort of one of

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Speaker 2: the messages that I want people to get from the

232
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Speaker 2: book is that there isn't anything inherently wrong with the

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Speaker 2: school or with the belief systems, or with the ideologies

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Speaker 2: that people have. But I think that there isn't enough

235
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Speaker 2: foresight to understand that a one size fits all approach

236
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Speaker 2: to education and to value structure when developing a young child,

237
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Speaker 2: it doesn't always work because people like me who are

238
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Speaker 2: gay are going to exist in that world and there

239
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Speaker 2: isn't any education or formation provided for people that are

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Speaker 2: different in that world.

241
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Speaker 3: Well, in fact, it's the opposite. It's really not wanting

242
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Speaker 3: you to.

243
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Speaker 2: Be gay, yes, one hundred percent, and they because belief

244
00:13:52,685 --> 00:13:56,725
Speaker 2: in that is rooted in their religious beliefs and therefore

245
00:13:56,765 --> 00:14:02,405
Speaker 2: their duty to God. It is a godlike thing that

246
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Speaker 2: they are doing to help someone who might be different

247
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Speaker 2: to no longer be different. So where they see something

248
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Speaker 2: as as an act of charity or mercy or helping

249
00:14:13,205 --> 00:14:18,765
Speaker 2: someone by helping them to stop be themselves actually ultimately

250
00:14:18,845 --> 00:14:23,125
Speaker 2: ends up being something that hurts mental health and is

251
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Speaker 2: only seen by the person experiencing it as manipulation.

252
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Speaker 3: How old were you at this point, So you were

253
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Speaker 3: at high school?

254
00:14:30,205 --> 00:14:34,725
Speaker 2: Then I started sort of midway through year too, so

255
00:14:35,005 --> 00:14:37,085
Speaker 2: just around about where I turned eight, and I was

256
00:14:37,125 --> 00:14:40,725
Speaker 2: there all the way until I graduated did the HSC,

257
00:14:40,765 --> 00:14:42,045
Speaker 2: so eight to eighteen.

258
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Speaker 3: And at some point it became apparent to the rest

259
00:14:47,525 --> 00:14:53,365
Speaker 3: of your schoolmates and to teachers that you were gay.

260
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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was a suspicion.

261
00:14:57,845 --> 00:15:03,885
Speaker 2: It was a suspicion born of their definitions of masculine

262
00:15:03,885 --> 00:15:08,005
Speaker 2: and feminine. I somewhat accidentally became an opera singer when

263
00:15:08,045 --> 00:15:09,085
Speaker 2: I was ten years old.

264
00:15:10,005 --> 00:15:11,045
Speaker 4: It was a boy soprano.

265
00:15:11,645 --> 00:15:14,925
Speaker 2: Sang at the Sydney Opera House multiple times a night,

266
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Speaker 2: hundreds of times in my career, and it was something

267
00:15:18,205 --> 00:15:21,485
Speaker 2: that I loved to do. But singing like a girl

268
00:15:22,045 --> 00:15:25,205
Speaker 2: wasn't a masculine trait. The other boys were playing rugby

269
00:15:25,245 --> 00:15:28,725
Speaker 2: and cricket and doing manly much o things based on

270
00:15:29,045 --> 00:15:32,565
Speaker 2: sort of just that definition alone, and the fact that

271
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Speaker 2: I was a bit smaller, a bit slighter, not as strong,

272
00:15:35,165 --> 00:15:37,325
Speaker 2: not as tall as the other kids. I was the

273
00:15:37,365 --> 00:15:42,645
Speaker 2: easy target who was just already different, and so yeah

274
00:15:42,685 --> 00:15:45,525
Speaker 2: that even though they had no clue that I actually

275
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Speaker 2: was gay, and you.

276
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Speaker 1: Barely at that point had a clue yourself, did you.

277
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Speaker 2: I just knew that I liked looking at boys, That's

278
00:15:52,285 --> 00:15:54,365
Speaker 2: all that I knew. I didn't and I, to me,

279
00:15:54,445 --> 00:15:58,285
Speaker 2: it felt like a disease that maybe puberty would cure,

280
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Speaker 2: and maybe once I hit that moment and I had

281
00:16:01,885 --> 00:16:04,125
Speaker 2: a growth spurt, and maybe put on it, you know,

282
00:16:04,205 --> 00:16:06,245
Speaker 2: developed a little bit more in my body and that

283
00:16:06,325 --> 00:16:07,925
Speaker 2: kind of thing. Maybe that would just be something that

284
00:16:08,405 --> 00:16:11,965
Speaker 2: would go away. But it didn't. Prayer didn't help either.

285
00:16:12,845 --> 00:16:15,365
Speaker 1: Stayed you tried to pray the gay away.

286
00:16:16,205 --> 00:16:19,565
Speaker 2: I really did very much. So yeah, I wish I

287
00:16:19,605 --> 00:16:20,325
Speaker 2: didn't have it.

288
00:16:20,525 --> 00:16:24,045
Speaker 3: Yes, because it didn't feel like a blessing. It felt

289
00:16:24,125 --> 00:16:24,805
Speaker 3: like a curse.

290
00:16:25,765 --> 00:16:26,845
Speaker 4: Yeah, one hundred percent.

291
00:16:26,885 --> 00:16:30,605
Speaker 2: And I just thought, how unfair is this because you know,

292
00:16:30,685 --> 00:16:33,965
Speaker 2: we're taught that sin will cast you into hell. So

293
00:16:34,485 --> 00:16:37,965
Speaker 2: you know, two etosexual people have sex before they get married,

294
00:16:38,685 --> 00:16:40,685
Speaker 2: they'll go to hell because they made that choice. And

295
00:16:40,725 --> 00:16:42,405
Speaker 2: I was like, but I didn't make the choice to

296
00:16:42,445 --> 00:16:44,605
Speaker 2: be gay. I was born this way. If I had

297
00:16:44,645 --> 00:16:47,285
Speaker 2: a choice about it, I would have preferred to have

298
00:16:47,325 --> 00:16:50,965
Speaker 2: been quote unquote normal because then I wouldn't have to

299
00:16:51,005 --> 00:16:54,125
Speaker 2: be carrying this huge ball and chain, you know, with

300
00:16:54,165 --> 00:16:56,725
Speaker 2: me everywhere that I go. So it just didn't feel

301
00:16:56,765 --> 00:17:01,125
Speaker 2: particularly fair that I was born doomed for hell.

302
00:17:01,445 --> 00:17:04,205
Speaker 3: And at that age, all you want to do is

303
00:17:04,325 --> 00:17:05,165
Speaker 3: be normal.

304
00:17:06,125 --> 00:17:10,805
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Yeah, apart from you know, not wanting to be

305
00:17:10,845 --> 00:17:13,965
Speaker 2: picked on, not wanting to be bullied or bashed or

306
00:17:14,245 --> 00:17:14,765
Speaker 2: any of that.

307
00:17:14,805 --> 00:17:15,405
Speaker 4: Sort of thing.

308
00:17:16,205 --> 00:17:20,485
Speaker 2: I also, I was genuinely worried about hell because it

309
00:17:20,565 --> 00:17:22,725
Speaker 2: was something that we were just taught about and told

310
00:17:22,725 --> 00:17:27,685
Speaker 2: about every single day, you know, instead of bedtime stories.

311
00:17:28,045 --> 00:17:31,045
Speaker 2: My mum would read from books about saints, and some

312
00:17:31,125 --> 00:17:34,245
Speaker 2: of those saints had supposedly had visions of hell. Then

313
00:17:34,245 --> 00:17:38,365
Speaker 2: she would read chapters about what this particular saint had

314
00:17:38,405 --> 00:17:41,005
Speaker 2: said about when she had a vision of hell, and

315
00:17:41,045 --> 00:17:44,245
Speaker 2: how she was shoved into a hole in the wall

316
00:17:44,325 --> 00:17:47,485
Speaker 2: that was you know, a billion degrees hot that was

317
00:17:47,525 --> 00:17:50,485
Speaker 2: constantly pressing down on her and she couldn't breathe and

318
00:17:50,605 --> 00:17:53,485
Speaker 2: was just constantly being you know, squashed in this and

319
00:17:53,605 --> 00:17:55,645
Speaker 2: that's what her eternity was going to be like if

320
00:17:55,685 --> 00:17:58,205
Speaker 2: she went to Hell. Then I'm being read those stories

321
00:17:58,245 --> 00:18:02,525
Speaker 2: as a ten, eleven, twelve year old, also knowing that

322
00:18:02,765 --> 00:18:05,365
Speaker 2: I am actually gay, which is a sin which is

323
00:18:05,405 --> 00:18:06,885
Speaker 2: going to take me to Hell. So that's what I

324
00:18:06,925 --> 00:18:10,725
Speaker 2: have to look forward to. Not a pleasant experience.

325
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Speaker 1: No night, darling, sleep well.

326
00:18:13,645 --> 00:18:15,685
Speaker 2: Yeah, literally, it's like all right, well, good night, now

327
00:18:15,805 --> 00:18:17,685
Speaker 2: here's the light switched off, and then you're just left

328
00:18:17,725 --> 00:18:21,405
Speaker 2: there lying in bed kind of just worrying and anxious

329
00:18:21,445 --> 00:18:23,965
Speaker 2: and you wish you could sort of speak to them

330
00:18:24,005 --> 00:18:26,285
Speaker 2: and say this is what I'm thinking and feeling. But

331
00:18:26,645 --> 00:18:28,565
Speaker 2: of course you can't do that because you know what

332
00:18:28,605 --> 00:18:31,325
Speaker 2: they think about that. You know, even as a young

333
00:18:31,685 --> 00:18:36,085
Speaker 2: child that your parents won't be able to have an

334
00:18:36,165 --> 00:18:39,845
Speaker 2: unbiased conversation with you. It will only be a judgment

335
00:18:39,885 --> 00:18:43,405
Speaker 2: based one. And you hear stories about these other kids like, oh,

336
00:18:43,485 --> 00:18:45,045
Speaker 2: did you hear about so and so it turns out

337
00:18:45,085 --> 00:18:47,125
Speaker 2: he's gay. Well he's gone off to this place where

338
00:18:47,165 --> 00:18:48,725
Speaker 2: they're going to fix him now, And I just thought,

339
00:18:48,725 --> 00:18:51,245
Speaker 2: I don't want that for me, so I'll just keep

340
00:18:51,285 --> 00:18:51,925
Speaker 2: it to myself.

341
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Speaker 4: So you live a very internal life.

342
00:18:54,525 --> 00:18:58,045
Speaker 3: And then, but what did your mother make of you?

343
00:18:58,085 --> 00:19:02,245
Speaker 3: Mothers kind of see everything. Of course, there was a

344
00:19:02,285 --> 00:19:05,045
Speaker 3: big part of your mother though she was very close

345
00:19:05,325 --> 00:19:11,925
Speaker 3: and supportive of you in your theatrical endeavors that obviously

346
00:19:12,005 --> 00:19:15,845
Speaker 3: the gay thing was a real no go zone. But

347
00:19:15,925 --> 00:19:18,965
Speaker 3: what did she see in you at that point?

348
00:19:19,645 --> 00:19:21,005
Speaker 4: So I think she definitely knew.

349
00:19:21,045 --> 00:19:25,325
Speaker 2: She would never talk about it outright, but I could

350
00:19:25,405 --> 00:19:29,365
Speaker 2: always sense that when I was doing musical theater or opera,

351
00:19:29,725 --> 00:19:33,325
Speaker 2: I could tell that she was concerned about how free

352
00:19:33,485 --> 00:19:36,645
Speaker 2: I was in that environment, because being free in an

353
00:19:36,685 --> 00:19:39,485
Speaker 2: operatic setting can lend itself to a little bit of

354
00:19:39,485 --> 00:19:44,245
Speaker 2: additional flamboyance. So if I was in a rehearsal period

355
00:19:44,285 --> 00:19:46,205
Speaker 2: and I was around other kids who were similar to

356
00:19:46,245 --> 00:19:49,765
Speaker 2: me and feeling a bit freer and lucier myself, she

357
00:19:49,885 --> 00:19:52,605
Speaker 2: might notice that, you know, my wrist is a little limp,

358
00:19:52,645 --> 00:19:54,325
Speaker 2: and so then she would kind of slap it and say, oh,

359
00:19:54,365 --> 00:19:56,845
Speaker 2: you look like a sissy boy. So she'd always sort

360
00:19:56,885 --> 00:20:00,165
Speaker 2: of just try and like course correct, you know, don't

361
00:20:00,165 --> 00:20:02,445
Speaker 2: swear your hips so much. You know, maybe try and

362
00:20:02,485 --> 00:20:05,565
Speaker 2: lower your voice when you're talking, or just things like that.

363
00:20:05,645 --> 00:20:07,445
Speaker 2: She would, you know, it just was always like a

364
00:20:07,485 --> 00:20:11,805
Speaker 2: constant thing that she would be worried and concerned about.

365
00:20:12,205 --> 00:20:12,365
Speaker 4: You know.

366
00:20:12,445 --> 00:20:14,125
Speaker 2: She would tell me that I could afford to butcher

367
00:20:14,205 --> 00:20:16,765
Speaker 2: up a little bit and would encourage me to play

368
00:20:16,805 --> 00:20:19,325
Speaker 2: sports and tell me to have more interests in what

369
00:20:19,365 --> 00:20:21,565
Speaker 2: the other kids at school had so that i'd be

370
00:20:21,605 --> 00:20:24,405
Speaker 2: able to connect with them a bit more and you know,

371
00:20:24,485 --> 00:20:25,605
Speaker 2: be a bit more manly.

372
00:20:26,765 --> 00:20:27,085
Speaker 1: Wow.

373
00:20:27,125 --> 00:20:29,045
Speaker 2: And so yeah, I could tell that it was always

374
00:20:29,125 --> 00:20:32,285
Speaker 2: something that she was concerned about. And then as I

375
00:20:32,365 --> 00:20:35,365
Speaker 2: sort of got older, and you know, I wasn't dating women,

376
00:20:35,485 --> 00:20:37,605
Speaker 2: and you know, bringing girls home for dinner and.

377
00:20:37,565 --> 00:20:38,365
Speaker 4: Stuff like that.

378
00:20:38,805 --> 00:20:41,525
Speaker 2: Yeah, you could just like always could tell that it

379
00:20:41,565 --> 00:20:44,445
Speaker 2: was there, but it was sort of such a shameful

380
00:20:44,485 --> 00:20:46,005
Speaker 2: thing that you don't bring it up.

381
00:20:46,285 --> 00:20:48,285
Speaker 4: So it was just like this elephant in the room.

382
00:20:48,725 --> 00:20:53,725
Speaker 3: Was it also because you loved your mom and you

383
00:20:53,765 --> 00:20:57,405
Speaker 3: didn't want to disappoint your mom aside from the fact

384
00:20:57,445 --> 00:21:00,565
Speaker 3: that there was always a threat of eternal damnation, the

385
00:21:00,605 --> 00:21:05,485
Speaker 3: thought of disappointing your mum who had such high hopes

386
00:21:05,525 --> 00:21:08,965
Speaker 3: and dreams for you and had chosen you as her

387
00:21:09,005 --> 00:21:11,485
Speaker 3: adult the son, her beloved adopted son.

388
00:21:12,085 --> 00:21:16,925
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, I felt like I wanted to be the

389
00:21:16,965 --> 00:21:19,885
Speaker 2: picture perfect child for her because I yeah, you're right,

390
00:21:20,045 --> 00:21:22,005
Speaker 2: I didn't want to disappoint her. I wanted to make

391
00:21:22,045 --> 00:21:25,165
Speaker 2: her happy. I knew the shame that she would feel.

392
00:21:25,765 --> 00:21:28,965
Speaker 2: I felt that shame myself every single day, and being

393
00:21:29,045 --> 00:21:32,525
Speaker 2: an empathetic person, I think when you go through a persecution,

394
00:21:32,685 --> 00:21:36,285
Speaker 2: you do naturally become more of an empathetic person. I

395
00:21:36,285 --> 00:21:38,645
Speaker 2: didn't want her to feel the way that I felt

396
00:21:38,725 --> 00:21:41,845
Speaker 2: all the time, so I would have preferred to have

397
00:21:42,005 --> 00:21:45,805
Speaker 2: kept her shielded from any knowledge or anything like that.

398
00:21:46,325 --> 00:21:48,605
Speaker 2: And for that reason, you know, I say in the book.

399
00:21:48,845 --> 00:21:51,645
Speaker 2: You know, if my mom she did pass in twenty twelve,

400
00:21:51,965 --> 00:21:56,045
Speaker 2: had she not passed away, I'm not sure if I

401
00:21:56,085 --> 00:21:57,405
Speaker 2: ever would have come out.

402
00:22:03,725 --> 00:22:08,245
Speaker 3: After this short break. Tim recalls the extreme bullying he

403
00:22:08,445 --> 00:22:15,125
Speaker 3: endured at read Field College. What happened to you at

404
00:22:15,165 --> 00:22:18,285
Speaker 3: school really was persecution.

405
00:22:19,245 --> 00:22:23,605
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was just NonStop for ten years. You know,

406
00:22:23,645 --> 00:22:25,965
Speaker 2: it started out innocently enough. You know, I have a

407
00:22:25,965 --> 00:22:32,085
Speaker 2: bit of an unfortunate surname, soys boys would find ways.

408
00:22:33,005 --> 00:22:36,085
Speaker 3: What sort of fun would schoolboys make with pocock?

409
00:22:36,325 --> 00:22:41,245
Speaker 2: I can't imagine anything you can imagine has been said.

410
00:22:42,605 --> 00:22:44,085
Speaker 4: So yeah, there was a lot of that.

411
00:22:44,525 --> 00:22:48,045
Speaker 2: And then when the opera stuff started to come along

412
00:22:48,365 --> 00:22:51,165
Speaker 2: into the picture, then it was you know, you seeing

413
00:22:51,245 --> 00:22:54,045
Speaker 2: like a girl. You're a girl, You're a gay, You're

414
00:22:54,085 --> 00:22:57,205
Speaker 2: a fag, you're a poof homo, all of that. And

415
00:22:57,445 --> 00:22:59,925
Speaker 2: because I, you know, wasn't the sporty kype, I wasn't

416
00:22:59,925 --> 00:23:03,405
Speaker 2: in particular shape. I didn't really know how to carry myself,

417
00:23:03,405 --> 00:23:06,445
Speaker 2: it was an easy target situation. So as the boys

418
00:23:06,445 --> 00:23:10,445
Speaker 2: got older and got stronger, and as their vocabulary increased,

419
00:23:11,045 --> 00:23:14,445
Speaker 2: as their muscles increased, the verbal and the physical abuse

420
00:23:14,485 --> 00:23:17,845
Speaker 2: did become more and more extreme as the as the

421
00:23:17,845 --> 00:23:18,605
Speaker 2: time would go by.

422
00:23:19,125 --> 00:23:21,285
Speaker 3: And also I imagine at the time when they were

423
00:23:21,285 --> 00:23:27,165
Speaker 3: having their own sexual awakenings, the norm being that they

424
00:23:27,165 --> 00:23:31,005
Speaker 3: were all straight, that you became even more of a

425
00:23:31,085 --> 00:23:32,205
Speaker 3: target to them.

426
00:23:32,645 --> 00:23:33,645
Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely.

427
00:23:33,805 --> 00:23:37,125
Speaker 2: And I think because I wasn't sharing in the kind

428
00:23:37,125 --> 00:23:40,605
Speaker 2: of the boy talk, the locker room talk that they

429
00:23:40,605 --> 00:23:42,805
Speaker 2: were having, or if I did, it would always seem

430
00:23:42,845 --> 00:23:46,485
Speaker 2: so put on, if that makes sense. Yeah, And it

431
00:23:46,645 --> 00:23:48,685
Speaker 2: just again like I just wasn't interested in it, and

432
00:23:48,965 --> 00:23:50,045
Speaker 2: you know I was. I was a bit of a

433
00:23:50,125 --> 00:23:53,045
Speaker 2: late bloomer too, which I was okay with because I

434
00:23:53,485 --> 00:23:56,365
Speaker 2: loved singing opera and it was it was my escape

435
00:23:56,525 --> 00:23:59,285
Speaker 2: from the day to day reality of what I was

436
00:23:59,325 --> 00:24:00,605
Speaker 2: going through at school.

437
00:24:00,725 --> 00:24:01,885
Speaker 1: Which was so brutal.

438
00:24:02,405 --> 00:24:05,405
Speaker 3: You actually say in the book it was like I

439
00:24:05,485 --> 00:24:09,725
Speaker 3: was living a shadow life during the day that was

440
00:24:09,845 --> 00:24:13,365
Speaker 3: during the brutality at school, and was being brought to

441
00:24:13,525 --> 00:24:16,365
Speaker 3: life at night when you'd be going off to do

442
00:24:16,445 --> 00:24:17,365
Speaker 3: your performances.

443
00:24:17,525 --> 00:24:18,925
Speaker 4: Yeah. It did.

444
00:24:18,965 --> 00:24:21,805
Speaker 2: I felt I felt like I was living two lives

445
00:24:21,845 --> 00:24:26,125
Speaker 2: at once, you know, almost like you know the superheroes

446
00:24:26,125 --> 00:24:28,605
Speaker 2: of old in the comics. You know, by day, I

447
00:24:28,725 --> 00:24:32,165
Speaker 2: was just at school and really not enjoying myself at

448
00:24:32,165 --> 00:24:34,925
Speaker 2: all and feeling really miserable and like I wanted to

449
00:24:35,045 --> 00:24:39,765
Speaker 2: hide and just vanish into a corner and be left alone.

450
00:24:39,925 --> 00:24:43,005
Speaker 2: But then at nighttime, I'm on stage in front of

451
00:24:43,085 --> 00:24:49,205
Speaker 2: thousands of people performing, singing, dancing, getting standing ovations, and

452
00:24:49,245 --> 00:24:52,285
Speaker 2: then I'd go home, and then the next day it'd

453
00:24:52,285 --> 00:24:54,565
Speaker 2: be sort of like rinse, repeat, Yeah, it just didn't

454
00:24:54,685 --> 00:24:59,125
Speaker 2: It just didn't feel real, and especially because what I

455
00:24:59,205 --> 00:25:02,005
Speaker 2: was enjoying about life was the thing that was actually

456
00:25:02,005 --> 00:25:05,205
Speaker 2: making me the target during the daytime. So then I

457
00:25:05,245 --> 00:25:07,885
Speaker 2: was sort of resenting this thing that was actually giving

458
00:25:07,885 --> 00:25:09,045
Speaker 2: me a purpose to live.

459
00:25:11,085 --> 00:25:15,165
Speaker 3: And your parents at that point knew that you were

460
00:25:15,285 --> 00:25:20,285
Speaker 3: very much drawn to an artistic life. How did they

461
00:25:20,525 --> 00:25:22,965
Speaker 3: and how did the school respond to that?

462
00:25:23,405 --> 00:25:26,445
Speaker 2: So I don't think my parents really ever intended that

463
00:25:26,445 --> 00:25:29,805
Speaker 2: I would get to a professional level, especially at you know,

464
00:25:29,965 --> 00:25:32,245
Speaker 2: such a young age, because I guess that is a

465
00:25:32,245 --> 00:25:34,765
Speaker 2: bit out of the ordinary. I think they just thought,

466
00:25:34,805 --> 00:25:38,005
Speaker 2: like music, learning music can be an interesting discipline for

467
00:25:38,045 --> 00:25:41,165
Speaker 2: a child to have. But then I just did excel

468
00:25:41,285 --> 00:25:45,805
Speaker 2: at it, and through accidental sort of you know, chance encounters,

469
00:25:45,965 --> 00:25:50,005
Speaker 2: ended up you know, as an opera singer. But I

470
00:25:50,005 --> 00:25:52,005
Speaker 2: think there was a there was a bit of bragging rights.

471
00:25:52,125 --> 00:25:54,845
Speaker 2: You know, they get to go to opening nights at

472
00:25:54,845 --> 00:25:57,005
Speaker 2: the Sydney Opera House and get free tickets and tell

473
00:25:57,045 --> 00:25:59,365
Speaker 2: their friends like, oh, you know, my son is you know,

474
00:25:59,405 --> 00:26:02,685
Speaker 2: singing Mozart tonight. But also I think it seemed fairly

475
00:26:02,725 --> 00:26:05,485
Speaker 2: innocent because I was a child, so it was just

476
00:26:05,565 --> 00:26:09,365
Speaker 2: going to be condensed to that period. But what I

477
00:26:09,365 --> 00:26:11,725
Speaker 2: I started to learn was that this was actually a

478
00:26:11,765 --> 00:26:15,045
Speaker 2: calling for life for me. I enjoyed it so much.

479
00:26:15,285 --> 00:26:17,525
Speaker 2: I just wanted to continue to do it for the

480
00:26:17,565 --> 00:26:21,805
Speaker 2: rest of my life. And when they started to realize that,

481
00:26:21,805 --> 00:26:24,405
Speaker 2: that was when it was like no, no, no, no, no,

482
00:26:25,165 --> 00:26:28,005
Speaker 2: this is just supposed to have been while you were

483
00:26:28,045 --> 00:26:31,845
Speaker 2: a kid. So when my voice did eventually change and

484
00:26:31,885 --> 00:26:33,565
Speaker 2: I was no longer able to sing as a boy

485
00:26:33,645 --> 00:26:38,285
Speaker 2: soprano and therefore stopped singing opera, I had wanted to

486
00:26:38,325 --> 00:26:42,085
Speaker 2: transition into a performing arts school so that I could

487
00:26:42,205 --> 00:26:46,205
Speaker 2: continue to develop those passions. But the answer was no,

488
00:26:46,765 --> 00:26:50,365
Speaker 2: because in my mum's words, the most important thing was

489
00:26:50,485 --> 00:26:51,605
Speaker 2: my religious education.

490
00:26:51,965 --> 00:26:55,365
Speaker 3: Reading that in the book that was like your bid

491
00:26:55,445 --> 00:26:56,165
Speaker 3: for freedom.

492
00:26:56,405 --> 00:26:57,325
Speaker 4: Yeah, it really was.

493
00:26:57,365 --> 00:27:01,005
Speaker 3: We all wanted you to have to escape not only

494
00:27:02,245 --> 00:27:06,245
Speaker 3: the intense bullying that had become physical by this point

495
00:27:06,405 --> 00:27:10,365
Speaker 3: as well from the school kids, but also from teachers.

496
00:27:10,765 --> 00:27:13,725
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the thing about the teaching staff is that

497
00:27:14,365 --> 00:27:18,085
Speaker 2: the way that the structure worked in the schools with

498
00:27:18,165 --> 00:27:22,285
Speaker 2: it being part of OPA Stay was that a lot,

499
00:27:22,325 --> 00:27:25,245
Speaker 2: not all, but a lot of the teachers were members

500
00:27:25,245 --> 00:27:29,605
Speaker 2: of OPA Stay, which means that they're either numeries or supernumries.

501
00:27:30,525 --> 00:27:35,885
Speaker 2: Numeries are unmarried men and women who dedicate their life

502
00:27:35,885 --> 00:27:38,605
Speaker 2: to OPA Stay. They're not priests or nuns, but they

503
00:27:38,645 --> 00:27:40,925
Speaker 2: take a vow of celibacy for the rest of their life.

504
00:27:41,565 --> 00:27:43,885
Speaker 2: Men and women are separate. So at the girls' school

505
00:27:43,885 --> 00:27:46,885
Speaker 2: it was all female teaching staff. At the boys' school

506
00:27:46,885 --> 00:27:50,165
Speaker 2: it was like ninety nine percent male teaching staff, with

507
00:27:50,245 --> 00:27:54,325
Speaker 2: a lot of those teachers either being celibate male numeries

508
00:27:54,965 --> 00:27:58,405
Speaker 2: or on the occasion supernumers, which are married members of

509
00:27:58,445 --> 00:27:59,005
Speaker 2: OPA Stay.

510
00:27:59,445 --> 00:28:02,245
Speaker 1: Right, but they still have those vowels to still.

511
00:28:02,045 --> 00:28:04,925
Speaker 2: Have the vows, they still live by the ideologies of

512
00:28:04,925 --> 00:28:09,125
Speaker 2: OPA Stay. And then of course they also had study

513
00:28:09,125 --> 00:28:14,285
Speaker 2: sets that were operated by well supposedly independently, but they

514
00:28:14,485 --> 00:28:17,285
Speaker 2: were part of the school, and that's where a lot

515
00:28:17,325 --> 00:28:21,205
Speaker 2: of the celibate numery teachers lived, and we would be

516
00:28:21,325 --> 00:28:25,245
Speaker 2: encouraged as students after school to hop on a bus

517
00:28:25,325 --> 00:28:27,925
Speaker 2: and go and spend time with them at these study

518
00:28:27,965 --> 00:28:31,045
Speaker 2: centers where they had a study room, you'd do your homework,

519
00:28:31,085 --> 00:28:33,765
Speaker 2: they had a little chapel, you'd have some religious meditation,

520
00:28:34,645 --> 00:28:37,445
Speaker 2: and then they would have activities, you know, whether it

521
00:28:37,525 --> 00:28:41,565
Speaker 2: be sports, ab sailing, going to the movies, whatever it

522
00:28:41,605 --> 00:28:44,605
Speaker 2: may be. And then during school holidays they would do camps.

523
00:28:44,725 --> 00:28:47,765
Speaker 2: You'd go skiing, or you'd gone bushwalks and hikes for

524
00:28:47,765 --> 00:28:49,125
Speaker 2: a few days, that kind of thing.

525
00:28:49,965 --> 00:28:52,725
Speaker 4: So it sort of was like this.

526
00:28:54,285 --> 00:28:57,845
Speaker 2: Bubble that you're just constantly surrounded in that sort of

527
00:28:57,845 --> 00:29:00,405
Speaker 2: goes unchecked. And when it came to some of the

528
00:29:00,525 --> 00:29:04,165
Speaker 2: numery teachers, you started to discover that these were men

529
00:29:04,245 --> 00:29:07,645
Speaker 2: who took their vow of celibacy when they themselves had

530
00:29:07,645 --> 00:29:10,445
Speaker 2: not actually experienced the world at large.

531
00:29:10,485 --> 00:29:13,005
Speaker 1: So when they were teenagers sometimes.

532
00:29:12,485 --> 00:29:15,285
Speaker 2: Exactly, you know, there there were some kids that had

533
00:29:15,325 --> 00:29:19,485
Speaker 2: taken their vow of celibacy and become overstain humeries from

534
00:29:19,565 --> 00:29:23,045
Speaker 2: migrade at school that had done that before we'd even graduated.

535
00:29:23,645 --> 00:29:27,165
Speaker 2: So there was still a teenage boy when they've taken

536
00:29:27,205 --> 00:29:31,965
Speaker 2: this vow to commit their lives to celibacy and open

537
00:29:32,045 --> 00:29:34,605
Speaker 2: stay before even graduating high school.

538
00:29:35,565 --> 00:29:37,925
Speaker 4: So arrested development exactly right.

539
00:29:37,965 --> 00:29:40,365
Speaker 2: And then those people become teachers and they're sort of

540
00:29:40,405 --> 00:29:43,885
Speaker 2: stuck in this teenage, like you said, arrested development stage

541
00:29:44,205 --> 00:29:46,725
Speaker 2: where their maturity has never really been tested. They've never

542
00:29:46,765 --> 00:29:49,325
Speaker 2: had to really get out of it, so they're sort

543
00:29:49,325 --> 00:29:52,405
Speaker 2: of sixteen seventeen, eighteen year old students are kind of

544
00:29:52,405 --> 00:29:54,485
Speaker 2: at the same level as them, and so they're kind

545
00:29:54,485 --> 00:29:57,245
Speaker 2: of interested in sort of having more of a friendship

546
00:29:57,285 --> 00:30:01,645
Speaker 2: bond with them than sort of a disciplinary and educative

547
00:30:01,965 --> 00:30:03,525
Speaker 2: sort of bond with them.

548
00:30:04,205 --> 00:30:06,925
Speaker 1: And they're also reporting back, are they not.

549
00:30:07,845 --> 00:30:10,445
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's like it's sort of there's eyes everywhere

550
00:30:10,765 --> 00:30:14,285
Speaker 2: because you're also as a student in these schools. Part

551
00:30:14,325 --> 00:30:18,445
Speaker 2: of their I guess unique selling point is they have

552
00:30:18,565 --> 00:30:22,005
Speaker 2: what they now call their mentoring system, where each student

553
00:30:22,085 --> 00:30:25,685
Speaker 2: is assigned a teacher at the school who will dedicate

554
00:30:25,765 --> 00:30:29,445
Speaker 2: particular time to that student every month to aid them

555
00:30:29,445 --> 00:30:33,125
Speaker 2: in their personal development, which is through the lens of

556
00:30:33,205 --> 00:30:36,445
Speaker 2: you know, the OPA stay ideologies. More often than not,

557
00:30:36,605 --> 00:30:41,565
Speaker 2: these mentors are OPA stay numeries or supernumeries, and so

558
00:30:41,725 --> 00:30:44,005
Speaker 2: basically you'd be saying in the middle of English class

559
00:30:44,045 --> 00:30:45,845
Speaker 2: and I would come on the door and it'd be

560
00:30:45,885 --> 00:30:47,805
Speaker 2: your mentor and it was time to take you out

561
00:30:47,845 --> 00:30:50,445
Speaker 2: of class, and you'd spend fifteen twenty minutes just walking

562
00:30:50,485 --> 00:30:53,165
Speaker 2: the school grounds one on one with this teacher and

563
00:30:53,205 --> 00:30:55,965
Speaker 2: they would ask you, you know, how your spirituality is going,

564
00:30:56,085 --> 00:30:58,845
Speaker 2: and you know what issues you might be having, and

565
00:30:59,125 --> 00:31:00,725
Speaker 2: you know, I would talk about the fact that I

566
00:31:00,805 --> 00:31:02,605
Speaker 2: was not enjoying myself and that I was, you know,

567
00:31:02,885 --> 00:31:04,885
Speaker 2: being a bit of a target and that kind of thing,

568
00:31:05,365 --> 00:31:07,805
Speaker 2: and they would say, we'll stop making yourself such a target.

569
00:31:08,005 --> 00:31:10,685
Speaker 2: Maybe you have more interests in what those other boys

570
00:31:10,685 --> 00:31:13,525
Speaker 2: have interests in, you know, maybe maybe try to butch

571
00:31:13,605 --> 00:31:16,045
Speaker 2: up a little bit. And then they would have meetings

572
00:31:16,045 --> 00:31:18,285
Speaker 2: with your parents where everything that you've spoken about with

573
00:31:18,325 --> 00:31:21,445
Speaker 2: them and your mentoring sessions get passed on to the parents,

574
00:31:21,445 --> 00:31:23,765
Speaker 2: and the parents talk to them about what you've been

575
00:31:23,765 --> 00:31:27,605
Speaker 2: saying to them at home. So you're just constantly surrounded

576
00:31:27,685 --> 00:31:30,325
Speaker 2: by all of these eyes, all of whom are sort

577
00:31:30,365 --> 00:31:35,165
Speaker 2: of working together to mold you into the way that

578
00:31:35,245 --> 00:31:38,765
Speaker 2: they see is how you should then graduate and go

579
00:31:38,805 --> 00:31:41,605
Speaker 2: out into the world, which, as we were saying before,

580
00:31:41,885 --> 00:31:44,365
Speaker 2: if you are different like myself and they're thinking they're

581
00:31:44,405 --> 00:31:47,525
Speaker 2: trying to change, is unchangeable. Though they might see it

582
00:31:47,565 --> 00:31:50,765
Speaker 2: as being this is good for your development, for people

583
00:31:50,845 --> 00:31:53,325
Speaker 2: like me, it's nothing more than manipulation.

584
00:31:55,005 --> 00:31:58,605
Speaker 3: What was going on with you mentally then at the time,

585
00:31:59,005 --> 00:32:02,525
Speaker 3: so you obviously had to You weren't saying when they'd

586
00:32:02,525 --> 00:32:04,765
Speaker 3: say how are you going? You weren't saying, oh, I

587
00:32:04,805 --> 00:32:07,565
Speaker 3: think I've got feelings for guys. You obviously were not

588
00:32:07,685 --> 00:32:14,485
Speaker 3: saying that you had constructed an altery go for yourself.

589
00:32:14,925 --> 00:32:16,965
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would sort of. I didn't exactly sort of

590
00:32:17,005 --> 00:32:20,045
Speaker 2: pretend to be butcher or anything. I would just sort

591
00:32:20,085 --> 00:32:23,285
Speaker 2: of say, well, they're just making assumptions because they don't

592
00:32:23,285 --> 00:32:26,205
Speaker 2: think what I do is particularly masculine. But that doesn't

593
00:32:26,245 --> 00:32:28,845
Speaker 2: actually mean that I am gay. But it also doesn't

594
00:32:28,885 --> 00:32:31,205
Speaker 2: mean that I whether I am or not, it doesn't

595
00:32:31,245 --> 00:32:33,205
Speaker 2: mean that I should be picked on this way. But

596
00:32:33,285 --> 00:32:35,645
Speaker 2: I just thought, you know, maybe I'm just a different person,

597
00:32:36,045 --> 00:32:38,045
Speaker 2: you know, in the same way that the computer nerds

598
00:32:38,045 --> 00:32:41,125
Speaker 2: are computer nerds and they're not good at rugby. I'm

599
00:32:41,125 --> 00:32:43,365
Speaker 2: a musical nerd. I'm just good at the music, stuff,

600
00:32:43,685 --> 00:32:46,245
Speaker 2: and eventually, you know, they'll all see and it'll all

601
00:32:46,285 --> 00:32:48,965
Speaker 2: be totally fine. So I never once spoke about it.

602
00:32:49,005 --> 00:32:53,965
Speaker 2: I never once admitted to it. But then mentally I

603
00:32:54,045 --> 00:32:56,245
Speaker 2: did know that I was gay, and I thought, well,

604
00:32:56,285 --> 00:32:58,525
Speaker 2: if this is the behavior that I'm receiving based on

605
00:32:58,605 --> 00:33:01,605
Speaker 2: nothing but a suspicion, how much worse will it be

606
00:33:02,045 --> 00:33:05,365
Speaker 2: if I confirm it for them? And then, of course

607
00:33:05,405 --> 00:33:08,125
Speaker 2: you run the risk of losing your family because people

608
00:33:08,205 --> 00:33:11,125
Speaker 2: get ostracized, and I didn't want that either, you know,

609
00:33:11,245 --> 00:33:14,005
Speaker 2: as an adopted kid, you know, I had some abandonment issues.

610
00:33:14,045 --> 00:33:17,165
Speaker 2: I needed my family to stick around and still want

611
00:33:17,205 --> 00:33:18,165
Speaker 2: me and stuff.

612
00:33:18,205 --> 00:33:19,325
Speaker 4: So yeah, it was.

613
00:33:19,405 --> 00:33:21,685
Speaker 2: It was very confusing, and it was very difficult, and

614
00:33:22,125 --> 00:33:25,445
Speaker 2: I would just spend all of my time in very

615
00:33:25,485 --> 00:33:29,245
Speaker 2: deep prayer, praying that it would be taken away from me.

616
00:33:29,285 --> 00:33:32,245
Speaker 2: I would even pray, like I sincerely believed that if

617
00:33:32,285 --> 00:33:35,085
Speaker 2: I asked strong enough, I could be a different person.

618
00:33:35,125 --> 00:33:39,085
Speaker 2: I might wake up in someone else's consciousness and I

619
00:33:39,085 --> 00:33:40,765
Speaker 2: would look in the mirror and it wouldn't be my

620
00:33:40,845 --> 00:33:43,565
Speaker 2: face staring back at me. It would be you know,

621
00:33:44,045 --> 00:33:48,365
Speaker 2: the popular, good looking rugby boy in the grade above me,

622
00:33:48,525 --> 00:33:50,805
Speaker 2: who everybody loves, and he gets to walk down the

623
00:33:50,845 --> 00:33:54,045
Speaker 2: corridors at school, never once having to look over his shoulder.

624
00:33:54,445 --> 00:33:57,525
Speaker 2: Who's never had, you know, a negative word spoken about him.

625
00:33:57,805 --> 00:34:00,285
Speaker 2: I just even if God gave me that for one day,

626
00:34:00,365 --> 00:34:02,565
Speaker 2: I just wanted to experience it just once.

627
00:34:03,125 --> 00:34:04,085
Speaker 4: And it never happened.

628
00:34:04,645 --> 00:34:08,365
Speaker 1: No, it never ever happened. But I also never happened.

629
00:34:08,445 --> 00:34:11,805
Speaker 2: I also discovered in doing that, though, in having such

630
00:34:11,845 --> 00:34:16,005
Speaker 2: a deep prayer life that had to be deep, it

631
00:34:16,045 --> 00:34:19,645
Speaker 2: had to be challenged more than say, the popular heterosexual

632
00:34:19,725 --> 00:34:22,045
Speaker 2: kids ever had to pray, you know, they'd never had

633
00:34:22,045 --> 00:34:26,485
Speaker 2: to pray that deeply or that existentially. I discovered something

634
00:34:26,525 --> 00:34:29,045
Speaker 2: about myself in doing all of that, which was that

635
00:34:29,125 --> 00:34:33,085
Speaker 2: I was so sad to think that if I had

636
00:34:33,125 --> 00:34:35,565
Speaker 2: woken up with someone else, all of the things that

637
00:34:35,605 --> 00:34:38,205
Speaker 2: I was really proud of, like the fact that I

638
00:34:38,245 --> 00:34:40,725
Speaker 2: was good at music, I knew I was a sensitive,

639
00:34:40,885 --> 00:34:43,165
Speaker 2: kind person. There was a lot about myself that I

640
00:34:43,245 --> 00:34:46,805
Speaker 2: realized I did like, and I thought, wouldn't it be

641
00:34:46,845 --> 00:34:49,325
Speaker 2: a shame if I did wake up with someone else,

642
00:34:49,805 --> 00:34:52,325
Speaker 2: if all of the rest of it just didn't exist.

643
00:34:52,365 --> 00:34:54,805
Speaker 2: I wanted to still have those things, so.

644
00:34:54,805 --> 00:34:59,485
Speaker 3: That kernel in you, the kernel of your essential self

645
00:35:00,125 --> 00:35:04,205
Speaker 3: was still sprouting within you that had not been crushed.

646
00:35:04,365 --> 00:35:05,165
Speaker 4: It had not been crushed.

647
00:35:05,205 --> 00:35:07,685
Speaker 2: It always stood, it always sat there, and I think

648
00:35:07,685 --> 00:35:10,525
Speaker 2: it always was like I will be a day if

649
00:35:10,525 --> 00:35:13,765
Speaker 2: you buid your time where it will get to flourish.

650
00:35:13,965 --> 00:35:16,445
Speaker 2: You just have to be patient and you just have

651
00:35:16,525 --> 00:35:20,245
Speaker 2: to sit it out. And I don't really know, because

652
00:35:20,245 --> 00:35:22,845
Speaker 2: I don't think I was really the strongest person, so

653
00:35:22,885 --> 00:35:26,205
Speaker 2: I'm not really sure how that was what got me through,

654
00:35:26,805 --> 00:35:28,725
Speaker 2: And I'm not sure if for a lot of other

655
00:35:28,765 --> 00:35:31,605
Speaker 2: people who have gone through similar things, I'm not sure

656
00:35:31,605 --> 00:35:35,005
Speaker 2: where they find their strength. I think for me, specifically,

657
00:35:35,085 --> 00:35:38,045
Speaker 2: the knowledge that I was adopted and always having that

658
00:35:38,085 --> 00:35:40,405
Speaker 2: feeling that I was always just a little bit of

659
00:35:40,405 --> 00:35:45,085
Speaker 2: the outsider gave me just enough of an understanding that

660
00:35:45,445 --> 00:35:48,405
Speaker 2: I was probably never going to ever be fully understood

661
00:35:49,605 --> 00:35:52,725
Speaker 2: because I'm not my parents' biological child, and I think

662
00:35:52,845 --> 00:35:55,045
Speaker 2: that was just all I needed to kind of go.

663
00:35:55,805 --> 00:35:57,925
Speaker 2: You just need to get through school, then you get

664
00:35:57,925 --> 00:35:59,925
Speaker 2: to call the shots, and when you do that, it

665
00:35:59,965 --> 00:36:02,325
Speaker 2: will be your own life. And that's sort of what

666
00:36:02,405 --> 00:36:02,765
Speaker 2: I did.

667
00:36:02,885 --> 00:36:06,285
Speaker 3: So even though you were trying to protect that deep

668
00:36:06,485 --> 00:36:09,685
Speaker 3: essential sacred in you, your.

669
00:36:09,525 --> 00:36:12,485
Speaker 1: Mum found some gay pornography.

670
00:36:12,125 --> 00:36:16,165
Speaker 4: She did, now right, it was a fun day.

671
00:36:16,325 --> 00:36:17,045
Speaker 1: What happened?

672
00:36:17,525 --> 00:36:20,205
Speaker 2: She liked to snoop through my room and one day

673
00:36:20,245 --> 00:36:23,885
Speaker 2: I'd gotten home from work and she had found a

674
00:36:23,925 --> 00:36:26,885
Speaker 2: magazine and a DVD. That one day, I'd been in

675
00:36:26,965 --> 00:36:29,925
Speaker 2: the CBD and I think I walked past a past

676
00:36:29,925 --> 00:36:33,805
Speaker 2: an adult bookstore. Our computers at home had all these

677
00:36:33,845 --> 00:36:38,605
Speaker 2: net nannies and blocks on the computer, so you couldn't

678
00:36:38,645 --> 00:36:42,125
Speaker 2: like even if. I remember one time it was the

679
00:36:42,565 --> 00:36:47,405
Speaker 2: Melbourne Cup and I was researching gay Waterhouse to see

680
00:36:47,405 --> 00:36:51,165
Speaker 2: what courses she had running, but net nanny popped up

681
00:36:51,285 --> 00:36:55,845
Speaker 2: because gay was part of the search, so I couldn't

682
00:36:55,845 --> 00:36:57,885
Speaker 2: even do that. And I thought, well, my parents have

683
00:36:57,965 --> 00:37:00,445
Speaker 2: never actually spoken to me about whether or not I am,

684
00:37:01,125 --> 00:37:03,605
Speaker 2: so why have they put a block on gay? They

685
00:37:03,685 --> 00:37:05,565
Speaker 2: obviously know, they just don't want to talk to me

686
00:37:05,565 --> 00:37:08,645
Speaker 2: about it. So, you know, I never really had any

687
00:37:08,685 --> 00:37:11,965
Speaker 2: exposure to anything. And you know, there was a show

688
00:37:12,005 --> 00:37:14,325
Speaker 2: called Queer as Folk on TV, but I actually found

689
00:37:14,365 --> 00:37:16,845
Speaker 2: that a bit too much because it was I was

690
00:37:16,885 --> 00:37:19,605
Speaker 2: such a conservative kid in this you know, really sheltered

691
00:37:19,605 --> 00:37:23,685
Speaker 2: bubble looking at that stuff. It was too confronting for

692
00:37:23,725 --> 00:37:26,765
Speaker 2: me to kind of you know, take on board and

693
00:37:27,045 --> 00:37:28,325
Speaker 2: so yeah. I was in the city one day and

694
00:37:28,365 --> 00:37:31,325
Speaker 2: I passed part walked past an adult bookstore and just

695
00:37:31,405 --> 00:37:33,365
Speaker 2: kind of ducked in with the sunglasses on and my

696
00:37:33,405 --> 00:37:36,165
Speaker 2: hat pulled down over my head, and I picked up

697
00:37:36,205 --> 00:37:38,405
Speaker 2: a magazine and a DVD and I just bought them

698
00:37:38,405 --> 00:37:40,405
Speaker 2: and then they just stayed stashed in my bottom drawer

699
00:37:40,445 --> 00:37:42,885
Speaker 2: at home. And one day my mum had found it,

700
00:37:42,965 --> 00:37:46,165
Speaker 2: and I came home from work and she had torn

701
00:37:46,365 --> 00:37:50,485
Speaker 2: every page out of the magazine individually and had laid

702
00:37:50,525 --> 00:37:54,165
Speaker 2: them all across the dining room table like a tablecloth.

703
00:37:54,765 --> 00:37:56,885
Speaker 2: I walked into that and my dad was sitting at

704
00:37:56,885 --> 00:37:59,645
Speaker 2: the standing at the kitchen counter, not saying anything, just

705
00:37:59,685 --> 00:38:02,245
Speaker 2: looking down, and my mum was just staying there. She

706
00:38:02,325 --> 00:38:07,325
Speaker 2: was just furious, and she just kept saying, like, is

707
00:38:07,365 --> 00:38:08,165
Speaker 2: this who you are?

708
00:38:08,365 --> 00:38:09,605
Speaker 4: Is this what you have come?

709
00:38:11,205 --> 00:38:13,605
Speaker 2: And I sort of I couldn't really, it was just

710
00:38:13,605 --> 00:38:15,045
Speaker 2: too overwhelming to really think.

711
00:38:15,085 --> 00:38:16,445
Speaker 4: But I couldn't.

712
00:38:16,725 --> 00:38:20,325
Speaker 2: I couldn't answer her, honestly, but in my head I

713
00:38:20,405 --> 00:38:22,605
Speaker 2: was thinking, what do you mean what I've become? This

714
00:38:22,685 --> 00:38:27,045
Speaker 2: is this is who I've always been being attracted to

715
00:38:27,405 --> 00:38:30,325
Speaker 2: men is what I've always been this is Nothing has

716
00:38:30,325 --> 00:38:33,765
Speaker 2: happened in my life that caused this. There's never been,

717
00:38:33,805 --> 00:38:36,085
Speaker 2: you know, like a downward spiral that took me here.

718
00:38:36,565 --> 00:38:38,565
Speaker 2: I just bought this because it's the only way that

719
00:38:38,605 --> 00:38:41,405
Speaker 2: I've been able to sort of satisfy any kind of

720
00:38:41,445 --> 00:38:44,725
Speaker 2: curiosity or get any sort of even as unfortunate as

721
00:38:44,725 --> 00:38:48,805
Speaker 2: it is, education about sex and sexuality.

722
00:38:49,125 --> 00:38:51,045
Speaker 4: And you know, I just sort of passed it off, like, oh,

723
00:38:51,045 --> 00:38:51,965
Speaker 4: it's just a phase.

724
00:38:52,125 --> 00:38:54,885
Speaker 2: You know. I got teased so much at school for

725
00:38:54,965 --> 00:38:56,925
Speaker 2: being gay that I thought maybe I'll buy it and

726
00:38:57,045 --> 00:38:59,325
Speaker 2: just see if it's something that I like. And she

727
00:38:59,525 --> 00:39:02,285
Speaker 2: was like and and I said, well, no, no, no,

728
00:39:03,045 --> 00:39:04,965
Speaker 2: I didn't like it. That's why it's in the bottom

729
00:39:05,005 --> 00:39:06,725
Speaker 2: of the drawer because you know, I never even looked

730
00:39:06,725 --> 00:39:08,645
Speaker 2: at it. I just bought it and regretted it and like,

731
00:39:08,725 --> 00:39:11,125
Speaker 2: don't worry it, so then you can be sure that

732
00:39:11,245 --> 00:39:13,685
Speaker 2: sort of within a month, I started dating a girl

733
00:39:13,925 --> 00:39:15,965
Speaker 2: because I thought, well, that'll that'll help.

734
00:39:16,045 --> 00:39:18,805
Speaker 1: Who was that lucky girl? Who was that lucky girl?

735
00:39:20,045 --> 00:39:22,805
Speaker 2: She was a coworker at the cinema complex that I

736
00:39:22,845 --> 00:39:25,485
Speaker 2: worked at, and we did get along really well, and

737
00:39:25,525 --> 00:39:27,925
Speaker 2: she was beautiful and she was funny and We were

738
00:39:27,925 --> 00:39:30,645
Speaker 2: together about nine months. She was a little bit younger

739
00:39:30,685 --> 00:39:32,525
Speaker 2: than me. I was like twenty one and she was

740
00:39:32,565 --> 00:39:35,725
Speaker 2: like eighteen or nineteen. She hadn't had a boyfriend before,

741
00:39:35,765 --> 00:39:39,045
Speaker 2: so she didn't really have any expectations. So we'd go

742
00:39:39,125 --> 00:39:42,165
Speaker 2: on dates and I would never kiss her because I

743
00:39:42,205 --> 00:39:45,765
Speaker 2: was never compelled to, and she seemed quite fine with that.

744
00:39:45,845 --> 00:39:48,845
Speaker 2: So it was sort of this really great situation. But

745
00:39:48,885 --> 00:39:51,445
Speaker 2: as it went on, and I think people don't really

746
00:39:51,445 --> 00:39:52,925
Speaker 2: think about this because we you know, we use the

747
00:39:53,005 --> 00:39:56,005
Speaker 2: term beards. You know, gay guy has a beard, and

748
00:39:56,045 --> 00:39:59,565
Speaker 2: that's a female friend that makes it look like he's straight.

749
00:39:59,765 --> 00:40:03,245
Speaker 3: Especially in Hollywood where you ended up, especially in Holly.

750
00:40:03,405 --> 00:40:03,685
Speaker 4: Yeah.

751
00:40:03,765 --> 00:40:07,205
Speaker 2: Yeah, And as much as it's it's sad to think

752
00:40:07,245 --> 00:40:10,645
Speaker 2: that people need that in order to to survive or

753
00:40:10,965 --> 00:40:12,885
Speaker 2: what have you, at the end of the day, what

754
00:40:13,045 --> 00:40:16,285
Speaker 2: started to really come home to me was that it

755
00:40:16,365 --> 00:40:21,205
Speaker 2: was really quite a misogynistic thing. Here I was using

756
00:40:21,525 --> 00:40:24,485
Speaker 2: this girl for my own selfish needs.

757
00:40:25,805 --> 00:40:26,645
Speaker 4: That's not really right.

758
00:40:26,725 --> 00:40:29,885
Speaker 2: You know, I'm lying to her, and essentially, you know,

759
00:40:30,165 --> 00:40:33,205
Speaker 2: had I not ever come out my family, I think

760
00:40:33,205 --> 00:40:36,085
Speaker 2: they always knew and they never once questioned me when

761
00:40:36,125 --> 00:40:38,325
Speaker 2: I was dating this girl, like oh, are you wasting

762
00:40:38,325 --> 00:40:38,765
Speaker 2: her time?

763
00:40:38,885 --> 00:40:39,405
Speaker 4: Is this right?

764
00:40:39,925 --> 00:40:42,725
Speaker 2: And they honestly would have been happier in life knowing

765
00:40:42,885 --> 00:40:45,125
Speaker 2: full well that I was gay if I married a

766
00:40:45,165 --> 00:40:48,885
Speaker 2: woman under false pretenses, just as long as I was

767
00:40:48,885 --> 00:40:52,885
Speaker 2: sort of maintaining the outward appearance of heterosexuality.

768
00:40:58,125 --> 00:41:00,165
Speaker 1: That's not all of my conversation with Tim.

769
00:41:00,565 --> 00:41:04,085
Speaker 3: Coming up after the break, we talk about how Hollywood

770
00:41:04,285 --> 00:41:10,245
Speaker 3: became the path to his freedom from the church. So

771
00:41:10,885 --> 00:41:15,005
Speaker 3: at this point, you've left school, you do the most

772
00:41:15,045 --> 00:41:19,445
Speaker 3: extraordinary thing, which is I often think that if it

773
00:41:19,485 --> 00:41:23,885
Speaker 3: doesn't break you, the oppression that you've endured will make you.

774
00:41:24,685 --> 00:41:28,805
Speaker 3: And you've got such tenacity in you. And I think

775
00:41:28,845 --> 00:41:33,805
Speaker 3: also the way you were raised taught you to think

776
00:41:33,965 --> 00:41:39,925
Speaker 3: differently to other people. So you decide that you want

777
00:41:39,965 --> 00:41:43,965
Speaker 3: an audition for one of the X Men films that

778
00:41:44,045 --> 00:41:47,165
Speaker 3: you've heard is going to be filming in Sydney. And

779
00:41:47,205 --> 00:41:51,125
Speaker 3: at this point you don't have an agent, you don't

780
00:41:51,165 --> 00:41:54,525
Speaker 3: have a manager, you're not an actor per se.

781
00:41:54,565 --> 00:41:56,685
Speaker 1: If you're recognized by the roles that you've.

782
00:41:56,525 --> 00:42:00,965
Speaker 2: Had, Yeah, I'd just done a whole bunch of acting courses.

783
00:42:01,525 --> 00:42:04,125
Speaker 2: After doing opera, I realized opera is a very melodramatic

784
00:42:04,205 --> 00:42:08,285
Speaker 2: form of entertainment, and you can develop some bad habits.

785
00:42:08,285 --> 00:42:09,965
Speaker 4: You can be a bit too broad and big.

786
00:42:10,005 --> 00:42:12,725
Speaker 2: But I developed a love for film and TV and

787
00:42:12,765 --> 00:42:14,525
Speaker 2: that's a lot more subtle when a camera is sort

788
00:42:14,525 --> 00:42:16,445
Speaker 2: of right here in your face. So I wanted to

789
00:42:16,445 --> 00:42:18,845
Speaker 2: get rid of the bad habits and you know, learn

790
00:42:18,925 --> 00:42:20,725
Speaker 2: more of the craft. So done a whole bunch of

791
00:42:20,805 --> 00:42:24,485
Speaker 2: courses and classes and spent thousands of dollars having someone

792
00:42:24,525 --> 00:42:26,765
Speaker 2: produce a show real for me, and thousands of dollars

793
00:42:26,845 --> 00:42:29,805
Speaker 2: on headshots. And you go around Sydney and you hand

794
00:42:29,845 --> 00:42:33,125
Speaker 2: out your headshot and your DVD to all of the

795
00:42:33,165 --> 00:42:35,205
Speaker 2: agents and they all just say, look, there's no work

796
00:42:35,245 --> 00:42:37,685
Speaker 2: in Australia, so we're not taking anyone on right now

797
00:42:38,005 --> 00:42:40,885
Speaker 2: possibility at an agent. You know, I spent my time

798
00:42:41,045 --> 00:42:43,325
Speaker 2: paying attention to what was happening in the industry, and

799
00:42:43,685 --> 00:42:46,165
Speaker 2: so when things came up that I felt, well, it's

800
00:42:46,205 --> 00:42:48,325
Speaker 2: not my fault that I'm not getting an audition for this.

801
00:42:49,085 --> 00:42:52,325
Speaker 2: I found my own way, and that was that I

802
00:42:52,365 --> 00:42:56,485
Speaker 2: found information online of who the casting directors were and

803
00:42:56,525 --> 00:42:59,285
Speaker 2: what their contacts were, and I just started peppering them

804
00:42:59,405 --> 00:43:02,685
Speaker 2: with my head shot and my show reel and then

805
00:43:02,725 --> 00:43:05,325
Speaker 2: I would call them facetiously two three times a week

806
00:43:05,525 --> 00:43:06,525
Speaker 2: and say, hey, this.

807
00:43:06,565 --> 00:43:07,245
Speaker 4: Is Tim Pocock.

808
00:43:07,325 --> 00:43:09,565
Speaker 2: I sent you a package in the mail yesterday and

809
00:43:09,605 --> 00:43:10,805
Speaker 2: the day before and the day before that and the

810
00:43:10,885 --> 00:43:11,405
Speaker 2: day before.

811
00:43:11,245 --> 00:43:12,405
Speaker 4: That, just wanted to make sure you got it.

812
00:43:12,445 --> 00:43:16,605
Speaker 2: And eventually, after several weeks of this particular casting, gregt

813
00:43:16,605 --> 00:43:19,125
Speaker 2: That called me up and said, fine, just come on in,

814
00:43:19,445 --> 00:43:22,325
Speaker 2: we'll meet you, see what you're all about. And so

815
00:43:22,645 --> 00:43:24,925
Speaker 2: I went and did that, and based off of that,

816
00:43:24,925 --> 00:43:27,645
Speaker 2: they offered me an audition and then just had a

817
00:43:27,685 --> 00:43:31,365
Speaker 2: whole bunch of auditions with them after that, which eventually

818
00:43:31,565 --> 00:43:33,845
Speaker 2: led to being cast as a superhero in the X

819
00:43:33,885 --> 00:43:39,005
Speaker 2: Men franchise. So yeah, I don't know, like I think

820
00:43:39,085 --> 00:43:41,285
Speaker 2: sometimes that tenacity can be a bit annoying. I'm not

821
00:43:41,325 --> 00:43:44,605
Speaker 2: sure if it'd be appropriate for me to encourage people

822
00:43:44,805 --> 00:43:47,765
Speaker 2: to follow in my footsteps in that way. But I

823
00:43:47,845 --> 00:43:49,805
Speaker 2: kind of just had to never say die attitude and

824
00:43:49,885 --> 00:43:53,485
Speaker 2: just that colonel we were talking about before, it was

825
00:43:53,525 --> 00:43:56,525
Speaker 2: still inside me saying this is the career you're meant

826
00:43:56,565 --> 00:43:58,325
Speaker 2: to do, and so I just wasn't going to take

827
00:43:58,325 --> 00:44:00,885
Speaker 2: no for an answer, and it ended up working out.

828
00:44:01,405 --> 00:44:04,885
Speaker 3: And also that beautiful face, your beautiful face that you

829
00:44:04,965 --> 00:44:08,405
Speaker 3: had prayed would be replaced by someone else's face.

830
00:44:09,725 --> 00:44:11,685
Speaker 1: Stood you in such good steed.

831
00:44:12,645 --> 00:44:14,645
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess I was lucky that I looked a

832
00:44:14,645 --> 00:44:17,445
Speaker 2: bit like James Marsden, who played the role in the

833
00:44:17,485 --> 00:44:20,605
Speaker 2: previous three films, which is obviously a great compliment to

834
00:44:20,645 --> 00:44:23,245
Speaker 2: me because I grew up. You know, the first X

835
00:44:23,285 --> 00:44:25,365
Speaker 2: Men film came out when I was fifteen, so I

836
00:44:25,405 --> 00:44:28,045
Speaker 2: was target market for All the kids at school were

837
00:44:28,085 --> 00:44:30,125
Speaker 2: watching it and they loved the action, and I was

838
00:44:30,125 --> 00:44:32,525
Speaker 2: sitting at home saying like, Oh, that's Cyclops. He's a

839
00:44:32,525 --> 00:44:34,725
Speaker 2: bit handsome, isn't he. I want to maybe one day up,

840
00:44:35,005 --> 00:44:36,765
Speaker 2: one day grow up and be that guy. And then

841
00:44:36,885 --> 00:44:38,925
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, one day I realized I'd grown

842
00:44:39,005 --> 00:44:39,885
Speaker 2: up and I was that guy.

843
00:44:40,325 --> 00:44:42,005
Speaker 4: And also I was now a superhero.

844
00:44:42,085 --> 00:44:44,005
Speaker 2: So it was kind of like, take that everyone at

845
00:44:44,005 --> 00:44:46,805
Speaker 2: school that picked on me, who's king of the castle?

846
00:44:46,845 --> 00:44:47,925
Speaker 4: Now?

847
00:44:48,525 --> 00:44:54,965
Speaker 3: But your mom, at the same time had gotten ill.

848
00:44:56,205 --> 00:44:57,405
Speaker 3: That was around that time.

849
00:44:57,965 --> 00:45:01,725
Speaker 2: It was Yeah, she'd found out whilst I was filming

850
00:45:01,885 --> 00:45:06,405
Speaker 2: X Men that she had stage four ovarian cancer. She

851
00:45:06,525 --> 00:45:09,845
Speaker 2: waited until after I had finished initial photography because she

852
00:45:09,925 --> 00:45:11,645
Speaker 2: knew I was on such a high with it, she

853
00:45:11,685 --> 00:45:14,085
Speaker 2: didn't want to kind of ruin it. But yeah, about

854
00:45:14,085 --> 00:45:16,125
Speaker 2: a week after I finished filming, she sort of pulled

855
00:45:16,125 --> 00:45:18,405
Speaker 2: me aside and told me that she had a tumor

856
00:45:18,445 --> 00:45:20,885
Speaker 2: in her ovaries and had to have a hysterectomy and

857
00:45:21,285 --> 00:45:24,285
Speaker 2: she'd then be starting chemo and stuff. So I came

858
00:45:24,845 --> 00:45:28,845
Speaker 2: crashing down to earth very quickly after having that sort

859
00:45:28,885 --> 00:45:31,725
Speaker 2: of career success, and then sort of the next few

860
00:45:31,805 --> 00:45:34,605
Speaker 2: years as I continued to act, you know, that's when

861
00:45:34,645 --> 00:45:37,405
Speaker 2: I started doing Dance Academy as well. But she was

862
00:45:37,445 --> 00:45:40,565
Speaker 2: just in and out of cancer treatments, and yeah, it

863
00:45:40,605 --> 00:45:43,525
Speaker 2: was just it was a weird kind of time, but

864
00:45:43,845 --> 00:45:47,765
Speaker 2: in a similar sense, almost like what happened at school,

865
00:45:47,765 --> 00:45:50,525
Speaker 2: where I was miserable by day, but then performing at night,

866
00:45:51,045 --> 00:45:52,685
Speaker 2: I felt again like I had a bit of this

867
00:45:52,765 --> 00:45:55,525
Speaker 2: jewel life, because you know, when I was at home

868
00:45:55,565 --> 00:45:58,125
Speaker 2: and around family, I was obviously still very much in

869
00:45:58,165 --> 00:46:02,405
Speaker 2: the closet, but very all consumed with just the terror

870
00:46:02,885 --> 00:46:08,165
Speaker 2: and heartbreak of watching my mom struggle and losing her

871
00:46:08,205 --> 00:46:09,285
Speaker 2: battle with cancer.

872
00:46:09,845 --> 00:46:13,525
Speaker 3: And you also found out, did you not, that your father,

873
00:46:14,285 --> 00:46:19,685
Speaker 3: this holy man, had been having an affair, Yeah, with

874
00:46:20,365 --> 00:46:21,485
Speaker 3: your mom's cousin.

875
00:46:21,845 --> 00:46:24,365
Speaker 2: It was your godmother, Yeah, my godmother. So it's very

876
00:46:24,405 --> 00:46:28,365
Speaker 2: bold and the beautiful, very soap opera kind of stuff,

877
00:46:28,765 --> 00:46:29,445
Speaker 2: But yeah, I did.

878
00:46:29,605 --> 00:46:31,805
Speaker 4: I found that out very accidentally.

879
00:46:32,045 --> 00:46:35,405
Speaker 2: My father and my godmother they didn't know that I

880
00:46:35,405 --> 00:46:37,765
Speaker 2: had found out, and I didn't tell Mom. I made

881
00:46:37,805 --> 00:46:40,205
Speaker 2: the choice not to tell her. She was still battling

882
00:46:40,245 --> 00:46:43,845
Speaker 2: the cancer and I thought her body is literally breaking

883
00:46:44,525 --> 00:46:46,725
Speaker 2: right now. I'm not going to be the one that

884
00:46:46,765 --> 00:46:48,245
Speaker 2: breaks her heart too.

885
00:46:48,445 --> 00:46:49,645
Speaker 4: So I told my sister.

886
00:46:49,685 --> 00:46:51,365
Speaker 2: I said, we just have to keep this a secret,

887
00:46:51,405 --> 00:46:53,365
Speaker 2: and we just have to be there for Mum, because

888
00:46:54,005 --> 00:46:57,805
Speaker 2: this explains why Dad's been a bit distant throughout this process.

889
00:46:58,205 --> 00:47:00,205
Speaker 2: We just need to be there for her and keep

890
00:47:00,245 --> 00:47:04,685
Speaker 2: this secret. And we decided that we would only tell

891
00:47:04,765 --> 00:47:07,965
Speaker 2: Mom if she went into remission and it stuck.

892
00:47:08,405 --> 00:47:09,525
Speaker 4: If she stayed in.

893
00:47:09,485 --> 00:47:11,685
Speaker 2: Remission and she had recovered, then we would say, by

894
00:47:11,725 --> 00:47:14,845
Speaker 2: the way, this is what's going on. But it just

895
00:47:15,125 --> 00:47:18,085
Speaker 2: it angered me because I obviously carried so much guilt

896
00:47:18,725 --> 00:47:21,645
Speaker 2: about who I was as a person because of what

897
00:47:21,725 --> 00:47:25,005
Speaker 2: I was dealing with, and just the hypocrisy of knowing

898
00:47:25,045 --> 00:47:29,085
Speaker 2: that someone who was part of two people who were

899
00:47:29,125 --> 00:47:33,245
Speaker 2: part of that holier than thou, judgmental community that had

900
00:47:33,445 --> 00:47:37,245
Speaker 2: inadvertently contributed to the way that I was feeling about myself,

901
00:47:37,845 --> 00:47:40,645
Speaker 2: were going off and doing something that was to me

902
00:47:41,725 --> 00:47:44,605
Speaker 2: actually wrong, because not only was it against the vows

903
00:47:45,205 --> 00:47:48,685
Speaker 2: or against you know, your relationship with your cousin, but

904
00:47:48,765 --> 00:47:51,965
Speaker 2: it's also hurtful to someone else. You know, whether I

905
00:47:52,045 --> 00:47:52,725
Speaker 2: marry a man.

906
00:47:52,765 --> 00:47:56,805
Speaker 3: And it's a choice, and it's a choice, it's yours

907
00:47:56,885 --> 00:47:57,645
Speaker 3: is not a choice.

908
00:47:57,805 --> 00:47:59,525
Speaker 4: Mine wasn't a choice, and theirs was.

909
00:47:59,565 --> 00:48:03,165
Speaker 2: You know, they have rules too for introceptual people, but

910
00:48:03,285 --> 00:48:06,245
Speaker 2: they have an option, which is you wait until you

911
00:48:06,245 --> 00:48:08,005
Speaker 2: get married before you have sex or what have you.

912
00:48:08,565 --> 00:48:11,125
Speaker 2: This was have your cake and eat it too, because

913
00:48:11,765 --> 00:48:16,005
Speaker 2: they had all the heterosexual options at their doorstep and

914
00:48:16,645 --> 00:48:19,405
Speaker 2: still chose to do something that was selfish and that

915
00:48:19,565 --> 00:48:21,285
Speaker 2: was hurtful to other people.

916
00:48:21,965 --> 00:48:24,805
Speaker 3: When you realize that your mother's health had declined again

917
00:48:25,685 --> 00:48:28,605
Speaker 3: and that was a losing battle, and at that point,

918
00:48:28,605 --> 00:48:34,805
Speaker 3: I imagine you'd do anything for your mum. She suggested

919
00:48:34,805 --> 00:48:36,885
Speaker 3: that you see a therapist.

920
00:48:37,845 --> 00:48:39,125
Speaker 1: Yep, how did that go?

921
00:48:40,125 --> 00:48:43,525
Speaker 2: It was an interesting experience. There was a lot going on.

922
00:48:43,685 --> 00:48:46,365
Speaker 2: She was obviously sick, she'd been given a death sentence.

923
00:48:46,405 --> 00:48:50,365
Speaker 2: At that point, I'd learned about my father's affair. I

924
00:48:50,525 --> 00:48:53,045
Speaker 2: was just finishing up on the second season of Dance Academy.

925
00:48:53,085 --> 00:48:55,485
Speaker 2: My character was being written out of the show, so

926
00:48:55,565 --> 00:48:57,685
Speaker 2: that sort of time in my life was coming to

927
00:48:57,685 --> 00:49:00,405
Speaker 2: an end as well. I wasn't sleeping at night because

928
00:49:00,445 --> 00:49:04,005
Speaker 2: I was just constantly up hearing mum vomiting every single

929
00:49:04,085 --> 00:49:06,045
Speaker 2: night at all hours because of how sick she was.

930
00:49:06,885 --> 00:49:10,565
Speaker 2: It was a very stressful time. And during all of that,

931
00:49:11,085 --> 00:49:14,125
Speaker 2: I found my mom sleeping in my bedroom again, obviously

932
00:49:14,205 --> 00:49:16,765
Speaker 2: trying to look for more evidence of what she'd found

933
00:49:16,805 --> 00:49:19,285
Speaker 2: that one time before, and she was up to.

934
00:49:19,485 --> 00:49:21,485
Speaker 1: A mother's strength, a mother's.

935
00:49:21,125 --> 00:49:25,365
Speaker 2: Strength exactly, and I think she felt caught out and whatnot.

936
00:49:25,445 --> 00:49:27,685
Speaker 2: We ended up having an argument and I ended up

937
00:49:27,685 --> 00:49:29,645
Speaker 2: swearing at her, which was an absolute no no in

938
00:49:29,645 --> 00:49:33,045
Speaker 2: our house. And it was very obvious that everything that

939
00:49:33,125 --> 00:49:36,845
Speaker 2: was going on, I was spiraling mentally with all of

940
00:49:36,845 --> 00:49:39,765
Speaker 2: the pressure of it. And so the following morning she

941
00:49:39,845 --> 00:49:41,445
Speaker 2: approached me and said that she thought would be a

942
00:49:41,485 --> 00:49:44,525
Speaker 2: good idea if I saw a therapist, and I thought, fantastic,

943
00:49:44,605 --> 00:49:47,565
Speaker 2: This is actually a great opportunity for me because I

944
00:49:47,605 --> 00:49:49,565
Speaker 2: don't get to talk to anyone about being gay and

945
00:49:49,565 --> 00:49:51,445
Speaker 2: how that makes me feel. I haven't been able to

946
00:49:51,445 --> 00:49:54,085
Speaker 2: talk to anyone about how my dad's a fair makes

947
00:49:54,085 --> 00:49:55,565
Speaker 2: me feel, because that's a secret that I have to

948
00:49:55,605 --> 00:49:58,725
Speaker 2: keep as well. And of course there's the career issues

949
00:49:58,725 --> 00:50:02,125
Speaker 2: and everything, but also the fact that the only guarantee

950
00:50:02,165 --> 00:50:05,525
Speaker 2: I had in my future was my mother's funeral. So

951
00:50:05,645 --> 00:50:08,885
Speaker 2: I saw this as a fantastic opportunity to really finally

952
00:50:09,125 --> 00:50:11,925
Speaker 2: get to talk about things that were keeping me up

953
00:50:11,965 --> 00:50:15,005
Speaker 2: at night. Of course, she then says to me that

954
00:50:15,085 --> 00:50:18,205
Speaker 2: she's already made the appointment and it's in about an hour,

955
00:50:18,245 --> 00:50:20,285
Speaker 2: so let's hop in the car and go now. And

956
00:50:20,325 --> 00:50:22,925
Speaker 2: when I arrived there, I noticed that there was a

957
00:50:22,965 --> 00:50:28,325
Speaker 2: plaque next to the therapist's office door that said Catholic psychologist,

958
00:50:28,885 --> 00:50:31,285
Speaker 2: and I thought, well, that's strange. I didn't realize psychologists

959
00:50:31,325 --> 00:50:34,725
Speaker 2: had religious denominations. I get in there and I see

960
00:50:34,725 --> 00:50:37,125
Speaker 2: a lot of religious iconography in their Mum had a

961
00:50:37,165 --> 00:50:39,965
Speaker 2: little session with him beforehand. When I get in there,

962
00:50:40,405 --> 00:50:44,685
Speaker 2: he tells me that he's part of Opus Stay and

963
00:50:44,685 --> 00:50:49,205
Speaker 2: then tells me that he specializes in hypnotherapy for addictions

964
00:50:49,205 --> 00:50:53,725
Speaker 2: to cigarettes, alcohol, or I don't know, homosexuality, and then

965
00:50:53,765 --> 00:50:57,485
Speaker 2: he kept bringing up all these occurrences of his successful

966
00:50:57,845 --> 00:51:01,605
Speaker 2: hypnotisms that have cured people of same sex attractions, and

967
00:51:01,645 --> 00:51:03,205
Speaker 2: I thought, well, why are we harping on about this.

968
00:51:03,525 --> 00:51:05,885
Speaker 2: I haven't told you that yet, and I'm sure as

969
00:51:05,925 --> 00:51:07,845
Speaker 2: hell not going to tell you now because I know

970
00:51:07,845 --> 00:51:10,445
Speaker 2: that you're part of Opu's day. So this isn't what

971
00:51:10,485 --> 00:51:12,205
Speaker 2: I thought it was going to be. But then he

972
00:51:12,325 --> 00:51:13,645
Speaker 2: just kept insistingly.

973
00:51:13,285 --> 00:51:14,925
Speaker 1: So who had told him?

974
00:51:16,565 --> 00:51:19,685
Speaker 2: So, you know, rather than saying anything to me, she'd

975
00:51:19,725 --> 00:51:21,285
Speaker 2: sort of gone in and said, this is what I

976
00:51:21,325 --> 00:51:24,205
Speaker 2: need from you, because he was just very insistent, like,

977
00:51:24,285 --> 00:51:25,325
Speaker 2: let's put you under hypnosis.

978
00:51:25,405 --> 00:51:26,645
Speaker 4: Let's put you under hypnosis.

979
00:51:27,285 --> 00:51:31,605
Speaker 2: In the book, I describe it as psychological rape, because

980
00:51:32,005 --> 00:51:35,205
Speaker 2: someone is essentially taking you out of your own mind

981
00:51:35,205 --> 00:51:37,725
Speaker 2: where you're not in control of yourself, sort of like

982
00:51:37,725 --> 00:51:41,525
Speaker 2: a roofie, so that they can then penetrate your mind

983
00:51:42,285 --> 00:51:45,485
Speaker 2: against your wishes and you become a puppet on their string.

984
00:51:46,525 --> 00:51:50,125
Speaker 2: And even though it's been my whole life praying the

985
00:51:50,165 --> 00:51:53,205
Speaker 2: gay away and wanting to be changed, there was something

986
00:51:53,245 --> 00:51:57,845
Speaker 2: so insidious about the tactics used in this occasion, and

987
00:51:58,205 --> 00:52:01,885
Speaker 2: I felt so insulted. That, you know, everything that I

988
00:52:01,965 --> 00:52:04,085
Speaker 2: was doing and everything that I'd achieved in life had

989
00:52:04,085 --> 00:52:09,645
Speaker 2: boiled down to essentially being coerced through trickery in were

990
00:52:09,725 --> 00:52:11,965
Speaker 2: a situation that I had no say in, and I

991
00:52:12,005 --> 00:52:16,005
Speaker 2: was twenty six, But it felt like an act of

992
00:52:16,045 --> 00:52:19,125
Speaker 2: love for my mum to at least pretend that I

993
00:52:19,205 --> 00:52:22,165
Speaker 2: was going along with it. Her months, her days were numbered,

994
00:52:22,525 --> 00:52:25,965
Speaker 2: and I just thought, I'll just play the part. She'll

995
00:52:26,045 --> 00:52:30,125
Speaker 2: feel at ease and relaxed, thinking that she's done the

996
00:52:30,245 --> 00:52:32,645
Speaker 2: right thing and that I'm going to be set on

997
00:52:32,685 --> 00:52:35,765
Speaker 2: the right path, and I'll just pretend. So I just

998
00:52:35,765 --> 00:52:38,965
Speaker 2: just pretended to the therapist that I was going along

999
00:52:38,965 --> 00:52:41,605
Speaker 2: with the hypnotism, and literally I was writing shopping lists

1000
00:52:41,605 --> 00:52:43,845
Speaker 2: in my head or thinking about what my workout at

1001
00:52:43,845 --> 00:52:47,045
Speaker 2: the gym was going to be afterwards, and just pretending

1002
00:52:47,125 --> 00:52:49,405
Speaker 2: to be going through hypnosis. And then thank you so much.

1003
00:52:49,445 --> 00:52:52,325
Speaker 2: Oh that was fantastic. I feel so much better. Oh

1004
00:52:52,365 --> 00:52:54,645
Speaker 2: look at her, she's gorgeous. Oh it's working already.

1005
00:52:55,725 --> 00:52:58,525
Speaker 1: So how extraordinary though that?

1006
00:52:58,765 --> 00:53:02,005
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that was the tipping point for me. That

1007
00:53:02,125 --> 00:53:04,485
Speaker 2: was the tipping point of I'm going to stand up

1008
00:53:04,485 --> 00:53:05,325
Speaker 2: for myself now.

1009
00:53:06,085 --> 00:53:10,725
Speaker 3: So yeah, because even with had her lowest EBB, her

1010
00:53:10,765 --> 00:53:17,925
Speaker 3: physical eb she still couldn't accept that about you. That

1011
00:53:18,045 --> 00:53:20,125
Speaker 3: was the one thing that she wanted to change. So

1012
00:53:21,045 --> 00:53:26,245
Speaker 3: at some point that must also compound for you. How

1013
00:53:26,325 --> 00:53:27,805
Speaker 3: unacceptable it.

1014
00:53:27,885 --> 00:53:31,125
Speaker 2: Was, absolutely and it is a real shame because it

1015
00:53:31,165 --> 00:53:34,245
Speaker 2: was only just months before she passed away that this happened.

1016
00:53:34,645 --> 00:53:36,685
Speaker 2: It's such a shame that she passed away with me

1017
00:53:37,085 --> 00:53:39,845
Speaker 2: knowing that that's what she was thinking of me. And

1018
00:53:40,005 --> 00:53:42,245
Speaker 2: you know, people will say, you know, when it's sort

1019
00:53:42,245 --> 00:53:44,805
Speaker 2: of the anniversary my mum's passing, or say her birthday

1020
00:53:44,885 --> 00:53:47,845
Speaker 2: or something, people, you know, they'll say like, oh, your

1021
00:53:47,885 --> 00:53:49,925
Speaker 2: mum would be so proud of you, And I just think, well,

1022
00:53:50,885 --> 00:53:53,805
Speaker 2: I actually will never get closure on that. And she

1023
00:53:54,205 --> 00:53:56,445
Speaker 2: died with me thinking that she would never be proud

1024
00:53:56,485 --> 00:53:59,605
Speaker 2: of me if I was my authentic self. So thanks

1025
00:53:59,605 --> 00:54:03,645
Speaker 2: for saying that, but I can't agree with you, and

1026
00:54:03,645 --> 00:54:06,645
Speaker 2: that's not a pleasant way to be. But I just

1027
00:54:07,205 --> 00:54:09,805
Speaker 2: I have to hope that now that she is gone,

1028
00:54:09,845 --> 00:54:13,205
Speaker 2: and you know, if the afterlife that I was always

1029
00:54:13,245 --> 00:54:15,565
Speaker 2: told exists, if it does exist, so I believe she's

1030
00:54:15,605 --> 00:54:18,725
Speaker 2: in the good place and she's seeing everything now and

1031
00:54:18,805 --> 00:54:22,205
Speaker 2: understanding things better. I think if she could speak to

1032
00:54:22,205 --> 00:54:24,325
Speaker 2: me now, I think she would tell me that she's

1033
00:54:24,365 --> 00:54:25,725
Speaker 2: okay with who I am.

1034
00:54:26,125 --> 00:54:28,405
Speaker 3: It might be hard for people to imagine who haven't

1035
00:54:28,405 --> 00:54:32,365
Speaker 3: grown up in a religious background that what might seem

1036
00:54:32,445 --> 00:54:36,805
Speaker 3: oppressive was also so deeply loving towards you.

1037
00:54:37,605 --> 00:54:41,565
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's I think something that I haven't ever

1038
00:54:41,605 --> 00:54:45,365
Speaker 2: really seen being discussed in the you know, the conversation

1039
00:54:45,725 --> 00:54:50,245
Speaker 2: about sort of conservative values versus you know, LGBTQI plus

1040
00:54:50,685 --> 00:54:54,125
Speaker 2: human rights is you know, people just say, oh, you know,

1041
00:54:54,245 --> 00:54:56,805
Speaker 2: the church or the mom. You know, they're the bad guy,

1042
00:54:56,845 --> 00:54:59,645
Speaker 2: they're the evil ones. But it's so much more nuanced

1043
00:54:59,645 --> 00:55:03,365
Speaker 2: than that, because love is involved. And I can't fault

1044
00:55:03,485 --> 00:55:08,765
Speaker 2: my mum for her intentions. Her beliefs were very extreme,

1045
00:55:08,885 --> 00:55:11,605
Speaker 2: but to her, what she was trying to do was

1046
00:55:11,765 --> 00:55:15,205
Speaker 2: to save my eternal soul. You know, this was bigger

1047
00:55:15,205 --> 00:55:17,845
Speaker 2: than life and death. This was heaven and hell, and

1048
00:55:18,005 --> 00:55:21,845
Speaker 2: she was doing everything from a very loving place to

1049
00:55:22,045 --> 00:55:24,925
Speaker 2: ensure in her mind ultimate best for me.

1050
00:55:24,965 --> 00:55:26,405
Speaker 4: And I can't faulter for that.

1051
00:55:26,925 --> 00:55:30,245
Speaker 2: I just wish that she had had a more rounded,

1052
00:55:30,885 --> 00:55:35,965
Speaker 2: sort of critical thinking approach to existence herself. And I

1053
00:55:36,005 --> 00:55:38,845
Speaker 2: wish that that sort of bubble and people in that

1054
00:55:38,965 --> 00:55:42,405
Speaker 2: mindset would be a bit more open to really trying

1055
00:55:42,445 --> 00:55:47,085
Speaker 2: to empathetically understand and connect with people who maybe have

1056
00:55:47,285 --> 00:55:51,285
Speaker 2: a different sexual preference than they might understand, rather than

1057
00:55:51,365 --> 00:55:54,725
Speaker 2: choosing to stay in willful ignorance because they don't want

1058
00:55:54,845 --> 00:55:56,565
Speaker 2: to have those conversations.

1059
00:55:57,005 --> 00:55:57,725
Speaker 1: But that's not.

1060
00:55:57,685 --> 00:56:00,445
Speaker 3: Even just a generational thing? Is that because your sister

1061
00:56:01,565 --> 00:56:04,205
Speaker 3: you also ended up as strange from and you'd been

1062
00:56:04,325 --> 00:56:05,045
Speaker 3: so close.

1063
00:56:05,445 --> 00:56:07,005
Speaker 4: Yeah, my sister and I are very close.

1064
00:56:07,045 --> 00:56:09,685
Speaker 2: Like I love my sister and my nieces and neptus,

1065
00:56:09,805 --> 00:56:13,005
Speaker 2: you know, and especially when you know, with Mum getting sick,

1066
00:56:13,085 --> 00:56:15,405
Speaker 2: you know, I very much we relied on each other

1067
00:56:15,485 --> 00:56:19,765
Speaker 2: to kind of get through how difficult that was, and

1068
00:56:19,885 --> 00:56:22,325
Speaker 2: with the stuff with Dad as well, And so I

1069
00:56:22,365 --> 00:56:24,605
Speaker 2: just always thought that we had a really close bond

1070
00:56:24,605 --> 00:56:26,405
Speaker 2: because we were also bonded by the fact that we

1071
00:56:26,405 --> 00:56:29,325
Speaker 2: were adopted too, you know, only only us two sort

1072
00:56:29,325 --> 00:56:31,845
Speaker 2: of you know, would really know what that was like,

1073
00:56:32,005 --> 00:56:35,045
Speaker 2: being adopted kids in you know, a family. So yeah,

1074
00:56:35,045 --> 00:56:37,165
Speaker 2: I felt very connected to her, but you know, I

1075
00:56:37,965 --> 00:56:41,205
Speaker 2: did always worry that, you know, she was very much

1076
00:56:41,245 --> 00:56:43,445
Speaker 2: part of that world, and she still was, you know,

1077
00:56:43,485 --> 00:56:46,445
Speaker 2: she married a kid that went to my school. They

1078
00:56:46,485 --> 00:56:49,285
Speaker 2: moved to a community filled with a lot of other

1079
00:56:49,485 --> 00:56:52,445
Speaker 2: people that went to the same schools, and there were

1080
00:56:52,445 --> 00:56:54,965
Speaker 2: two new schools set up by Pa d and Opa

1081
00:56:55,045 --> 00:56:58,205
Speaker 2: stay in that area too and started sending their kids

1082
00:56:58,285 --> 00:57:01,685
Speaker 2: to those schools as well, So for them, the bubble

1083
00:57:01,805 --> 00:57:06,085
Speaker 2: was definitely very intact. But I did get to the point,

1084
00:57:06,565 --> 00:57:08,685
Speaker 2: after my mum had passed, and after my dad had

1085
00:57:08,885 --> 00:57:12,685
Speaker 2: made his relationship with his mistress public and got engaged

1086
00:57:12,725 --> 00:57:15,165
Speaker 2: and was, you know, trotting off to live his life.

1087
00:57:15,605 --> 00:57:18,405
Speaker 2: I got to the point where I gave myself permission

1088
00:57:18,525 --> 00:57:24,165
Speaker 2: to break out, break free and start exploring who I

1089
00:57:24,205 --> 00:57:27,125
Speaker 2: really was. And I did meet someone, and based off

1090
00:57:27,165 --> 00:57:29,965
Speaker 2: of that, I did come out to my sister, and

1091
00:57:30,365 --> 00:57:32,605
Speaker 2: it was very apparent right after that that I was

1092
00:57:32,645 --> 00:57:36,125
Speaker 2: no longer welcome in her house, which then led to

1093
00:57:36,405 --> 00:57:42,205
Speaker 2: a lot of arguments and that, and we've tried many

1094
00:57:42,245 --> 00:57:44,565
Speaker 2: times over the years to sort of bury hatchets, but

1095
00:57:45,165 --> 00:57:47,085
Speaker 2: you know, the wounds a bit too deep.

1096
00:57:47,445 --> 00:57:51,205
Speaker 3: How was that for you, the person that like you

1097
00:57:51,285 --> 00:57:54,045
Speaker 3: said that you were the closest to the only person

1098
00:57:54,085 --> 00:57:58,845
Speaker 3: who knew how your experience was of being adopted and

1099
00:57:58,885 --> 00:58:00,005
Speaker 3: a part of this family.

1100
00:58:00,485 --> 00:58:03,205
Speaker 1: How was that when she rejected you.

1101
00:58:04,525 --> 00:58:07,925
Speaker 2: I just I felt that there was no ground beneath

1102
00:58:07,965 --> 00:58:11,365
Speaker 2: my feet anymore. So much had changed in such a

1103
00:58:11,365 --> 00:58:14,485
Speaker 2: short period of time in the space of eighteen months.

1104
00:58:14,885 --> 00:58:18,925
Speaker 2: My mum was dead, my dad was married to my godmother, which,

1105
00:58:19,285 --> 00:58:21,605
Speaker 2: apart from the affair, is just kind of awkward and

1106
00:58:21,685 --> 00:58:25,365
Speaker 2: weird and strange. And now I don't have the sister

1107
00:58:25,445 --> 00:58:27,725
Speaker 2: that I always thought I had in my life, and

1108
00:58:27,805 --> 00:58:30,325
Speaker 2: so I just I felt out of control and I

1109
00:58:30,405 --> 00:58:34,485
Speaker 2: felt like I had no foundations. And you know, from

1110
00:58:34,525 --> 00:58:37,325
Speaker 2: then on, I did make a series of really poor

1111
00:58:37,365 --> 00:58:41,565
Speaker 2: decisions and choices for myself that were based on that

1112
00:58:41,645 --> 00:58:45,285
Speaker 2: feeling of not having the foundation of family anymore. And

1113
00:58:45,325 --> 00:58:49,605
Speaker 2: so while I'll absolutely wear the bad decisions that I've made,

1114
00:58:49,845 --> 00:58:52,365
Speaker 2: I do have to, you know, in order to not

1115
00:58:53,085 --> 00:58:56,045
Speaker 2: be an absolute lunatic in my own brain, I do

1116
00:58:56,165 --> 00:58:59,245
Speaker 2: have to also acknowledge where some of those poor choices

1117
00:58:59,285 --> 00:59:01,925
Speaker 2: came from. And that was the fact that I was

1118
00:59:02,005 --> 00:59:06,885
Speaker 2: so heartbroken because I'd always thought that that relationship would

1119
00:59:07,085 --> 00:59:12,765
Speaker 2: remain intact, and I just felt so unseen and unnecessary

1120
00:59:13,365 --> 00:59:15,005
Speaker 2: in their lives in that moment.

1121
00:59:15,085 --> 00:59:16,845
Speaker 4: So I ran away.

1122
00:59:17,005 --> 00:59:19,565
Speaker 2: Essentially, I moved to the other side of the world

1123
00:59:19,605 --> 00:59:22,045
Speaker 2: and just you were.

1124
00:59:21,925 --> 00:59:26,405
Speaker 3: In Hollywood, you were, you were in la and also

1125
00:59:26,605 --> 00:59:30,525
Speaker 3: reading your book, you were you were such a hopeless

1126
00:59:30,565 --> 00:59:36,365
Speaker 3: homosexual because you were so you were so naive and

1127
00:59:36,485 --> 00:59:38,925
Speaker 3: it's so beautiful your innocence.

1128
00:59:40,245 --> 00:59:42,005
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it, you know, it gets you into trouble.

1129
00:59:42,485 --> 00:59:43,845
Speaker 2: And that's sort of another thing.

1130
00:59:43,885 --> 00:59:44,085
Speaker 4: You know.

1131
00:59:45,365 --> 00:59:48,245
Speaker 2: I was twenty seven when I like came out, or

1132
00:59:48,285 --> 00:59:51,805
Speaker 2: twenty eight even, and you know, I was still you know,

1133
00:59:51,885 --> 00:59:54,605
Speaker 2: a stone cold when they call them a golden virgin,

1134
00:59:55,245 --> 00:59:59,205
Speaker 2: and you know, I'd never done anything sexual and you know,

1135
00:59:59,605 --> 01:00:02,085
Speaker 2: not even really kissed anyone before unless I was paid

1136
01:00:02,085 --> 01:00:03,605
Speaker 2: to on camera, but that was always a girl.

1137
01:00:04,245 --> 01:00:06,125
Speaker 4: So yeah, I was just so new to it.

1138
01:00:06,205 --> 01:00:08,125
Speaker 2: And so even though I was in my late twenties,

1139
01:00:08,445 --> 01:00:14,405
Speaker 2: I was essentially approaching crushes and attractions and romance in

1140
01:00:14,445 --> 01:00:16,885
Speaker 2: the way that you know, a twelve thirteen year old might.

1141
01:00:17,085 --> 01:00:20,325
Speaker 2: You know, you see that sort of classic scene where

1142
01:00:20,725 --> 01:00:23,365
Speaker 2: you know, young thirteen year old boy and girl they

1143
01:00:23,405 --> 01:00:25,165
Speaker 2: break up and the girl runs up to a room

1144
01:00:25,205 --> 01:00:26,125
Speaker 2: and slams the door.

1145
01:00:26,165 --> 01:00:27,725
Speaker 4: It's never coming out again. You know.

1146
01:00:28,045 --> 01:00:30,245
Speaker 2: I was that but in my late twenties, because I'd

1147
01:00:30,245 --> 01:00:33,765
Speaker 2: never had the opportunity to kind of flex how I

1148
01:00:33,845 --> 01:00:37,205
Speaker 2: felt in myself in that sense, and that you know,

1149
01:00:37,245 --> 01:00:39,365
Speaker 2: that got me into a lot of trouble because I

1150
01:00:39,485 --> 01:00:42,685
Speaker 2: became too attached to the wrong people, especially because I

1151
01:00:42,685 --> 01:00:46,165
Speaker 2: didn't anymore have the attachments at home backing me up

1152
01:00:46,285 --> 01:00:47,565
Speaker 2: or being that safety net.

1153
01:00:47,925 --> 01:00:50,405
Speaker 1: You didn't have the emotional ballast.

1154
01:00:50,005 --> 01:00:54,045
Speaker 3: Exactly, Yeah, to keep you kind of tethered. But how

1155
01:00:54,125 --> 01:00:57,045
Speaker 3: is it in Hollywood? So by this stage, obviously you're

1156
01:00:57,165 --> 01:01:02,285
Speaker 3: very successful and you are living a dual life because

1157
01:01:02,325 --> 01:01:07,165
Speaker 3: you're not out publicly. What do you manageers say in

1158
01:01:07,325 --> 01:01:14,005
Speaker 3: Hollywood for male handsome of leading man age Yeah, it's

1159
01:01:14,165 --> 01:01:15,365
Speaker 3: about sixus.

1160
01:01:15,405 --> 01:01:15,605
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1161
01:01:15,685 --> 01:01:19,085
Speaker 2: It's an interesting one because obviously the industry is somewhat

1162
01:01:19,205 --> 01:01:23,645
Speaker 2: quite progressive in a sense, but as also isn't At

1163
01:01:23,645 --> 01:01:26,325
Speaker 2: the end of the day, the entertainment industry is it's

1164
01:01:26,325 --> 01:01:28,965
Speaker 2: about making money. When you make a movie, you have

1165
01:01:29,005 --> 01:01:33,365
Speaker 2: to sell tickets. If you cast a handsome man in

1166
01:01:33,525 --> 01:01:36,085
Speaker 2: the leading role for a big blockbuster, you're doing so

1167
01:01:36,405 --> 01:01:37,965
Speaker 2: because you want all the women who have a crush

1168
01:01:37,965 --> 01:01:40,285
Speaker 2: on him to go. If those women know that he's gay,

1169
01:01:40,405 --> 01:01:42,925
Speaker 2: will they buy the tickets? So there is a little

1170
01:01:42,925 --> 01:01:44,925
Speaker 2: bit of that sort of like, oh, we can't cast

1171
01:01:46,365 --> 01:01:49,325
Speaker 2: a gay guy as a superhero or a leading man.

1172
01:01:49,365 --> 01:01:52,245
Speaker 2: And you know, I had my agent at the time

1173
01:01:52,725 --> 01:01:55,445
Speaker 2: literally said that to me on the phone he found

1174
01:01:55,445 --> 01:01:58,085
Speaker 2: out that I was gay. I hadn't said anything to him,

1175
01:01:58,085 --> 01:02:00,525
Speaker 2: but I was living with my boyfriend of the time

1176
01:02:00,685 --> 01:02:03,805
Speaker 2: in Los Angeles and I'd gone to a house party

1177
01:02:03,805 --> 01:02:06,205
Speaker 2: with friends and one of my agent's other clients was

1178
01:02:06,245 --> 01:02:08,485
Speaker 2: there and had mentioned to my agent on the phone

1179
01:02:08,525 --> 01:02:10,925
Speaker 2: that she saw me and my boyfriend together at the party.

1180
01:02:11,285 --> 01:02:13,525
Speaker 2: So he then caught me up and got really angry

1181
01:02:13,525 --> 01:02:16,245
Speaker 2: with me over the phone because I hadn't told him

1182
01:02:16,245 --> 01:02:20,325
Speaker 2: this detail about my life. And I initially thought, well,

1183
01:02:20,325 --> 01:02:24,165
Speaker 2: it's none of your business. But then from a professional standpoint,

1184
01:02:24,205 --> 01:02:26,485
Speaker 2: if the view is that as a gay man, I

1185
01:02:26,525 --> 01:02:30,885
Speaker 2: can't book leading roles or superhero roles, that affects his

1186
01:02:30,965 --> 01:02:33,725
Speaker 2: ability to make money as well, if that is the case.

1187
01:02:34,365 --> 01:02:36,765
Speaker 2: But I mean, ultimately, the joke was on them because

1188
01:02:37,165 --> 01:02:38,085
Speaker 2: I'd already done both.

1189
01:02:38,125 --> 01:02:43,005
Speaker 3: So, Dick, how do you feel about your sexuality now?

1190
01:02:44,045 --> 01:02:45,165
Speaker 1: Are they still shadows?

1191
01:02:45,365 --> 01:02:46,685
Speaker 4: Of course? The demons?

1192
01:02:46,725 --> 01:02:48,725
Speaker 2: You know, when you it was almost thirty years of

1193
01:02:48,725 --> 01:02:51,925
Speaker 2: my life that I was living with all of that

1194
01:02:52,045 --> 01:02:53,125
Speaker 2: sort of thought in my head.

1195
01:02:53,605 --> 01:02:56,605
Speaker 4: They'll always be there. There will always be questions.

1196
01:02:56,645 --> 01:02:59,485
Speaker 2: Even in writing this book, I had to really delve

1197
01:02:59,605 --> 01:03:03,365
Speaker 2: deeply into my religious beliefs and what I was taught

1198
01:03:03,365 --> 01:03:05,645
Speaker 2: and read a lot of texts and everything, And there's

1199
01:03:05,685 --> 01:03:09,125
Speaker 2: always going to be those twangs of doubt and always

1200
01:03:09,485 --> 01:03:10,925
Speaker 2: little moments of fear of.

1201
01:03:10,885 --> 01:03:13,085
Speaker 4: Like, oh, what what if I am wrong?

1202
01:03:13,325 --> 01:03:17,125
Speaker 2: Like am I now a vocal spokesperson for Satan because

1203
01:03:17,165 --> 01:03:20,565
Speaker 2: I've written a book encouraging people to be themselves? Like?

1204
01:03:20,605 --> 01:03:21,205
Speaker 4: Oh, I don't know.

1205
01:03:21,885 --> 01:03:24,685
Speaker 2: But really, ultimately, you get to a point where you

1206
01:03:24,925 --> 01:03:27,805
Speaker 2: have those demons, but you just put them in the corner.

1207
01:03:27,965 --> 01:03:30,245
Speaker 2: You tell them to be quiet and as long as

1208
01:03:30,285 --> 01:03:32,365
Speaker 2: you're going out every day and doing a good thing.

1209
01:03:32,405 --> 01:03:34,765
Speaker 2: And I do genuinely believe that I'm doing a good

1210
01:03:34,805 --> 01:03:38,125
Speaker 2: thing by writing this book. I don't think the just,

1211
01:03:38,325 --> 01:03:40,525
Speaker 2: ever loving God that I was raised to believe in

1212
01:03:40,965 --> 01:03:42,925
Speaker 2: would ever chastise.

1213
01:03:42,445 --> 01:03:42,805
Speaker 4: Me for that.

1214
01:03:43,445 --> 01:03:44,325
Speaker 1: I know. Are you in love?

1215
01:03:44,805 --> 01:03:48,165
Speaker 2: I am, yes, but a wonderful man by my side.

1216
01:03:48,605 --> 01:03:50,445
Speaker 2: I feel a bit sorry for him. We met sort

1217
01:03:50,485 --> 01:03:55,605
Speaker 2: of about three months before I started to go down

1218
01:03:55,605 --> 01:03:59,285
Speaker 2: the road of being an advocate for the LGBTQI plus community.

1219
01:03:59,965 --> 01:04:03,885
Speaker 2: That's been a very new journey for me and doing documentaries,

1220
01:04:03,885 --> 01:04:06,845
Speaker 2: speaking out, doing stuff with politics, and now writing a book.

1221
01:04:07,005 --> 01:04:08,165
Speaker 4: It's all so new for me.

1222
01:04:08,365 --> 01:04:11,125
Speaker 2: And you know he's in there and so understanding and

1223
01:04:11,205 --> 01:04:15,645
Speaker 2: patient throughout the whole thing. Honestly, I'm very lucky to

1224
01:04:15,685 --> 01:04:17,885
Speaker 2: have him there. But you know, everything happens for a reason,

1225
01:04:17,925 --> 01:04:19,805
Speaker 2: and it's it's all just been good stuff lately.

1226
01:04:19,885 --> 01:04:22,045
Speaker 4: So yeah, brilliant.

1227
01:04:22,325 --> 01:04:26,405
Speaker 3: He must be like what happened to party Tim?

1228
01:04:26,445 --> 01:04:26,965
Speaker 4: Definitely that.

1229
01:04:27,045 --> 01:04:28,725
Speaker 2: But you know, I've got a couple of months until

1230
01:04:28,805 --> 01:04:32,485
Speaker 2: my fortieth birthday, and yeah, I'll make it up to him.

1231
01:04:33,485 --> 01:04:36,445
Speaker 1: Have you been back to the church community.

1232
01:04:36,365 --> 01:04:37,485
Speaker 4: Well, not really over stay.

1233
01:04:37,605 --> 01:04:37,645
Speaker 3: No.

1234
01:04:38,485 --> 01:04:39,565
Speaker 4: For a long time.

1235
01:04:40,485 --> 01:04:42,605
Speaker 2: After month passed away, and even after I came out

1236
01:04:42,605 --> 01:04:44,605
Speaker 2: and was, you know, living with my partner and stuff,

1237
01:04:44,645 --> 01:04:49,885
Speaker 2: I still attended Sunday Mass every week and still kept

1238
01:04:49,925 --> 01:04:52,965
Speaker 2: that up because apart from you know that just being

1239
01:04:53,005 --> 01:04:54,925
Speaker 2: part of the faith, it was a way that I

1240
01:04:54,925 --> 01:04:57,285
Speaker 2: felt still connected to my mum because it was such

1241
01:04:57,325 --> 01:05:01,485
Speaker 2: a big part of her life. But unfortunately, it does

1242
01:05:01,525 --> 01:05:04,165
Speaker 2: get to a point if you're going once a week

1243
01:05:04,245 --> 01:05:07,325
Speaker 2: to a place where someone's standing up there essentially telling

1244
01:05:07,365 --> 01:05:11,165
Speaker 2: you how bad you are as a person. You get

1245
01:05:11,205 --> 01:05:13,125
Speaker 2: to a point where you realize like you need to

1246
01:05:13,165 --> 01:05:15,725
Speaker 2: look after your own mental health and make your own choices.

1247
01:05:16,405 --> 01:05:19,325
Speaker 2: And I knew that I had a very deep connection

1248
01:05:19,525 --> 01:05:22,845
Speaker 2: with the God that I believe in because of, you know,

1249
01:05:23,285 --> 01:05:25,765
Speaker 2: the extremities of how I needed to pray at such

1250
01:05:25,765 --> 01:05:28,445
Speaker 2: a young age that I thought, I'm quite happy to

1251
01:05:28,485 --> 01:05:32,125
Speaker 2: continue in my life with my spirituality and my beliefs

1252
01:05:32,605 --> 01:05:34,245
Speaker 2: and do so in a way that's not going to

1253
01:05:34,325 --> 01:05:37,605
Speaker 2: harm me further in terms of mental health, but will

1254
01:05:37,645 --> 01:05:40,205
Speaker 2: still keep me connected. And I'll do that in the

1255
01:05:40,245 --> 01:05:43,725
Speaker 2: way that I communicate with others and how I help others.

1256
01:05:44,165 --> 01:05:46,925
Speaker 2: And I think, you know, writing this book is it's

1257
01:05:47,045 --> 01:05:50,645
Speaker 2: my way of, I guess, accessing the God within myself

1258
01:05:51,165 --> 01:05:54,165
Speaker 2: and giving love out to the world by telling people

1259
01:05:54,205 --> 01:05:57,845
Speaker 2: you're not alone, and by hopefully encouraging others who don't

1260
01:05:57,925 --> 01:06:01,725
Speaker 2: realize how responsible they are for mental health damage to

1261
01:06:01,805 --> 01:06:03,325
Speaker 2: maybe rethink their approach.

1262
01:06:04,005 --> 01:06:13,125
Speaker 3: Amazing, You've also changed legislation single handedly, superhero. Yeah, No,

1263
01:06:13,205 --> 01:06:14,565
Speaker 3: that was such an honor.

1264
01:06:15,805 --> 01:06:18,245
Speaker 2: I started working with Equality Australia a couple of years

1265
01:06:18,245 --> 01:06:21,005
Speaker 2: ago and I shared some of my stories. I spoke

1266
01:06:21,005 --> 01:06:24,925
Speaker 2: about when I was taken to the hypnotherapist to have

1267
01:06:25,005 --> 01:06:29,245
Speaker 2: the gay hypnotized out of me, and it was just

1268
01:06:29,885 --> 01:06:32,365
Speaker 2: it was an opportunity to be able to maybe turn

1269
01:06:32,405 --> 01:06:35,805
Speaker 2: that negative into a positive. Over the next few months,

1270
01:06:36,125 --> 01:06:40,005
Speaker 2: together with some other survivors of conversion therapy practices, you know,

1271
01:06:40,125 --> 01:06:42,845
Speaker 2: we ended up meeting with the Premiere of New South Wales,

1272
01:06:42,925 --> 01:06:46,045
Speaker 2: Chris Mins, and we did a press conference at Parliament

1273
01:06:46,045 --> 01:06:49,445
Speaker 2: House and we met with the sitting politicians and we

1274
01:06:49,525 --> 01:06:52,845
Speaker 2: spoke to them about the importance of making conversion therapy

1275
01:06:52,885 --> 01:06:57,565
Speaker 2: practices illegal because it's very vulnerable people that are being

1276
01:06:57,605 --> 01:07:02,685
Speaker 2: exposed to them, and it is mentally damaging for people

1277
01:07:02,885 --> 01:07:06,365
Speaker 2: and their self worth and their development, and the people

1278
01:07:06,405 --> 01:07:10,165
Speaker 2: who will take people to that aren't willing to listen

1279
01:07:10,205 --> 01:07:12,845
Speaker 2: to them or hear that. So therefore we do need

1280
01:07:12,925 --> 01:07:16,525
Speaker 2: legislative change to protect them. And based off you know,

1281
01:07:16,565 --> 01:07:22,085
Speaker 2: those conversations and us speaking our testimony, conversion therapy practices

1282
01:07:22,125 --> 01:07:24,485
Speaker 2: are now illegal in the state of New South Wales.

1283
01:07:24,565 --> 01:07:27,885
Speaker 2: So I feel tremendous, tremendously honored and humbled to have

1284
01:07:27,925 --> 01:07:29,165
Speaker 2: been part of that.

1285
01:07:28,805 --> 01:07:33,085
Speaker 3: That will make a difference in lives. What my last

1286
01:07:33,165 --> 01:07:36,725
Speaker 3: question to you, what would have made a difference in

1287
01:07:36,805 --> 01:07:41,645
Speaker 3: your life when you were that boy being bullied.

1288
01:07:43,085 --> 01:07:46,005
Speaker 2: Being able to speak. But that is not an option,

1289
01:07:47,605 --> 01:07:52,205
Speaker 2: and that is why after coming out, I guess on

1290
01:07:52,285 --> 01:07:54,885
Speaker 2: national television when I did a four Corners episode with

1291
01:07:54,925 --> 01:07:58,885
Speaker 2: Louise Milligan and then speaking further, you know, doing the

1292
01:07:58,965 --> 01:08:03,365
Speaker 2: stuff about conversion therapy with Equality Australia and in Parliament.

1293
01:08:04,805 --> 01:08:08,725
Speaker 2: When I was approached to write this book, I was

1294
01:08:08,765 --> 01:08:11,645
Speaker 2: so reminded of how voiceless I felt when I was

1295
01:08:11,685 --> 01:08:14,285
Speaker 2: going through it and what I needed when I was younger,

1296
01:08:14,285 --> 01:08:17,525
Speaker 2: and that was someone to stand up for me because

1297
01:08:17,565 --> 01:08:20,165
Speaker 2: I wasn't able to stand up for myself because it

1298
01:08:20,205 --> 01:08:24,125
Speaker 2: was impossible. So I thought, I'm in a position where

1299
01:08:24,125 --> 01:08:26,565
Speaker 2: I get to be that voice now and it would

1300
01:08:26,565 --> 01:08:31,885
Speaker 2: be irresponsible of me not to do so. So that's

1301
01:08:31,885 --> 01:08:34,725
Speaker 2: literally why I've done the book. It's almost I've a

1302
01:08:35,005 --> 01:08:37,285
Speaker 2: pretty much written this book for my younger self.

1303
01:08:37,365 --> 01:08:40,445
Speaker 3: Yes, do you feel like you've gone back and scooped

1304
01:08:40,485 --> 01:08:40,965
Speaker 3: him up?

1305
01:08:41,605 --> 01:08:42,685
Speaker 4: Yeah? I think so.

1306
01:08:43,045 --> 01:08:46,325
Speaker 2: And I think it has given me the ability to

1307
01:08:46,405 --> 01:08:51,165
Speaker 2: talk directly to people who are experiencing it, and I

1308
01:08:51,325 --> 01:08:54,125
Speaker 2: know what they need to hear and how they need

1309
01:08:54,125 --> 01:08:57,285
Speaker 2: to hear it, and so even like you know, I've

1310
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Speaker 2: helped the young me now because here I am today,

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Speaker 2: So maybe I can help them and be sort of

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Speaker 2: there for them and pass it forward. And you know,

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Speaker 2: I think we can save some lives by telling truthful stories,

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Speaker 2: and even if it's just one, that's of success.

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Speaker 1: Tim Pocock, more power to you.

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Speaker 3: I myself was raised in a religion that disapproves of,

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Speaker 3: for want of a better term, queerness in any form

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Speaker 3: or dissent. So Tim's story is a powerful reminder of

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Speaker 3: how much strength it takes to question everything you were

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Speaker 3: taught to believe. Everything about yourself, your faith, and your

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Speaker 3: place in the world has to be reconstructed when you've

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Speaker 3: left such an authoritarian regiment of belief. It's an extraordinary

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Speaker 3: story about conquering sometimes the strongest opponent that we have ourself.

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Speaker 3: The executive producer of No Filter is Nama Brown, the

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Speaker 3: senior producer is Bree Player. Sound design and editing by

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Speaker 3: Jacob Brown, and I'm your host, Kitline Brook. Thanks for

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Speaker 3: listening and we'll keep them coming.