1
00:00:10,365 --> 00:00:15,005
Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mother Mia podcast. Mama Maya acknowledges

2
00:00:15,045 --> 00:00:17,685
Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

3
00:00:17,765 --> 00:00:18,525
Speaker 1: is recorded on.

4
00:00:19,285 --> 00:00:21,925
Speaker 2: I can tell you this was thirty years ago, and

5
00:00:21,965 --> 00:00:24,885
Speaker 2: I can still remember the exact words that I made

6
00:00:24,965 --> 00:00:28,445
Speaker 2: her skin crawl. Those were the words that she used

7
00:00:28,445 --> 00:00:31,325
Speaker 2: when she left me. And this was somebody that I

8
00:00:31,445 --> 00:00:33,085
Speaker 2: was in love with. She was in love with me,

9
00:00:33,205 --> 00:00:36,085
Speaker 2: but had gotten so bad that she told me that,

10
00:00:36,925 --> 00:00:40,205
Speaker 2: you know, my mere presence made her skin crawl because

11
00:00:40,205 --> 00:00:41,245
Speaker 2: of what I was involved in.

12
00:00:49,005 --> 00:00:55,125
Speaker 1: For Christian Pictulini, being a teenager was hard. He was lonely,

13
00:00:55,605 --> 00:00:58,285
Speaker 1: he didn't have a lot of friends, he was angry

14
00:00:58,365 --> 00:01:01,045
Speaker 1: at the world and his parents, who he kind of

15
00:01:01,085 --> 00:01:08,205
Speaker 1: felt abandoned by, and he was vulnerable. At fourteen, he

16
00:01:08,325 --> 00:01:12,605
Speaker 1: finally felt seen by someone. It turns out that that

17
00:01:12,805 --> 00:01:16,885
Speaker 1: someone was Clark Martel, who at that time was the

18
00:01:17,005 --> 00:01:22,805
Speaker 1: leader of the Chicago area Skinheads, a violent, racist, dangerous

19
00:01:23,085 --> 00:01:28,405
Speaker 1: neo Nazi hate group. Christian went all in, so far

20
00:01:28,565 --> 00:01:32,965
Speaker 1: in that he became the lead propagandist and frontman for

21
00:01:33,045 --> 00:01:36,365
Speaker 1: the group and ended up recruiting other young men into

22
00:01:36,405 --> 00:01:42,045
Speaker 1: their organization. And now Christian spends his life trying to

23
00:01:42,245 --> 00:01:47,125
Speaker 1: undo the damage he's caused. But the story of how

24
00:01:47,165 --> 00:01:50,805
Speaker 1: he left the group and its ideology and faced the

25
00:01:50,805 --> 00:01:53,885
Speaker 1: reckoning of the incredible harm he'd played a party in,

26
00:01:54,645 --> 00:01:56,845
Speaker 1: not just to the victims of hate crimes, but to

27
00:01:56,965 --> 00:02:02,245
Speaker 1: his own family and friends, is a long and complicated one,

28
00:02:02,485 --> 00:02:05,845
Speaker 1: but it's a really important one because these groups are

29
00:02:05,885 --> 00:02:09,765
Speaker 1: alive and strong and recruiting young men into their ranks

30
00:02:09,885 --> 00:02:15,605
Speaker 1: every day, something which Christian understands all too well. The

31
00:02:15,685 --> 00:02:18,565
Speaker 1: moment that Christian's life was swallowed up by hate and

32
00:02:18,685 --> 00:02:26,005
Speaker 1: violence is one he'll never forget. Here is Christian. At

33
00:02:26,045 --> 00:02:29,205
Speaker 1: one point, when I was reading your book, very powerful book,

34
00:02:29,365 --> 00:02:34,565
Speaker 1: breaking Hate, Thank you, I was reflecting on my own genealogy,

35
00:02:34,605 --> 00:02:38,845
Speaker 1: which is my mother is Jamaican American, my dad's Dutch.

36
00:02:39,325 --> 00:02:42,285
Speaker 1: There's a lot, it's a real mix up. And I

37
00:02:42,365 --> 00:02:47,085
Speaker 1: thought to myself, there was a point in your life

38
00:02:48,125 --> 00:02:53,085
Speaker 1: in which you would have hated me, just based on that.

39
00:02:54,205 --> 00:02:59,045
Speaker 1: Can you tell me when that point in your life started?

40
00:02:59,965 --> 00:03:01,765
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's kind of tough to pinpoint that

41
00:03:01,925 --> 00:03:04,365
Speaker 2: because even though I was involved in a hate movement,

42
00:03:04,525 --> 00:03:07,205
Speaker 2: it was it was tough to say when I actually

43
00:03:07,245 --> 00:03:09,965
Speaker 2: believed what I believed. But I'll tell you. I'll tell

44
00:03:09,965 --> 00:03:13,005
Speaker 2: you the backstory of how I got involved. I was

45
00:03:13,045 --> 00:03:16,925
Speaker 2: fourteen years old in nineteen eighty seven when I was

46
00:03:16,965 --> 00:03:22,205
Speaker 2: recruited into America's first white supremacist skinhead gang. I spent

47
00:03:22,285 --> 00:03:25,445
Speaker 2: eight years until I was about twenty two and a

48
00:03:25,445 --> 00:03:29,245
Speaker 2: half years old as part of that hate movement, and

49
00:03:29,285 --> 00:03:34,805
Speaker 2: at varying points when I was involved, my ideology fluctuated

50
00:03:34,845 --> 00:03:37,965
Speaker 2: because I wasn't raised as a hater. My parents are

51
00:03:38,165 --> 00:03:43,365
Speaker 2: Italian immigrants to the United States, so it wasn't something

52
00:03:43,405 --> 00:03:45,245
Speaker 2: that I had been raised on. In fact, my parents

53
00:03:45,325 --> 00:03:47,645
Speaker 2: were often victims of prejudice when they came to the

54
00:03:47,725 --> 00:03:51,085
Speaker 2: United States in the mid nineteen sixties, so it wasn't

55
00:03:51,125 --> 00:03:53,605
Speaker 2: really a foundation of who I was. And when I

56
00:03:53,685 --> 00:03:57,725
Speaker 2: was first recruited, I wasn't a hater. What I was

57
00:03:57,725 --> 00:04:00,365
Speaker 2: was lonely and I didn't have a lot of friends,

58
00:04:00,525 --> 00:04:03,325
Speaker 2: and the people who befriended me at that very critical

59
00:04:03,365 --> 00:04:07,205
Speaker 2: age of fourteen years old happened to be white powered skinheads.

60
00:04:07,445 --> 00:04:11,605
Speaker 1: All right, So fourteen. I've got a son who's fourteen,

61
00:04:12,085 --> 00:04:15,845
Speaker 1: and he's in that transition between walking around with pockets

62
00:04:15,845 --> 00:04:19,605
Speaker 1: full of rocks to hanging out with his mates and

63
00:04:19,765 --> 00:04:23,085
Speaker 1: going down the pier and trying to fish, Like, how

64
00:04:23,125 --> 00:04:29,565
Speaker 1: did you get recruited at fourteen from a pretty solid family?

65
00:04:30,125 --> 00:04:32,205
Speaker 1: Where were you and how did that happen?

66
00:04:33,285 --> 00:04:36,445
Speaker 2: I'll paint a picture for you. It was the summer

67
00:04:36,485 --> 00:04:39,085
Speaker 2: of nineteen eighty seven. I was a fourteen year old

68
00:04:39,365 --> 00:04:41,645
Speaker 2: kind of nobody at the time, who'd been bullied and

69
00:04:41,765 --> 00:04:45,125
Speaker 2: have a lot of friends. And I was standing in

70
00:04:45,165 --> 00:04:47,925
Speaker 2: an alley. I was smoking a joint and a man

71
00:04:48,005 --> 00:04:50,725
Speaker 2: with a shaved head came up to me and he

72
00:04:50,885 --> 00:04:52,685
Speaker 2: took the joint out of my mouth hate and he

73
00:04:52,685 --> 00:04:54,845
Speaker 2: looked me in the eyes and he said, that's what

74
00:04:54,885 --> 00:04:57,085
Speaker 2: the Communists and the Jews want you to do, to

75
00:04:57,165 --> 00:05:00,485
Speaker 2: keep your docile. If I'm being completely honest, at fourteen

76
00:05:00,565 --> 00:05:02,405
Speaker 2: years old, I didn't know what a Communist was. I

77
00:05:02,405 --> 00:05:04,685
Speaker 2: didn't know if i'd met a Jewish person. I didn't

78
00:05:04,725 --> 00:05:06,085
Speaker 2: even know what the word docil meant.

79
00:05:06,165 --> 00:05:09,725
Speaker 1: No, you wouldn't have known any of the above. But

80
00:05:09,765 --> 00:05:11,285
Speaker 1: what was the connection there?

81
00:05:11,845 --> 00:05:11,925
Speaker 2: Like?

82
00:05:12,085 --> 00:05:14,845
Speaker 1: What what did he say that resonated with you?

83
00:05:15,845 --> 00:05:18,445
Speaker 2: So the next thing he said was really important to me.

84
00:05:18,525 --> 00:05:21,285
Speaker 2: He asked me what my name was, And growing up

85
00:05:21,325 --> 00:05:23,365
Speaker 2: I was afraid to tell people my name because people

86
00:05:23,405 --> 00:05:26,285
Speaker 2: made fun of it. Pi Cellini is not, you know,

87
00:05:26,365 --> 00:05:28,965
Speaker 2: a very easy name to pronounce, so people made fun

88
00:05:29,005 --> 00:05:32,085
Speaker 2: of me for that name. But he recognized when I

89
00:05:32,125 --> 00:05:34,285
Speaker 2: told him eventually what my name was, that it was

90
00:05:34,285 --> 00:05:37,925
Speaker 2: an Italian name, and instead of making fun of me,

91
00:05:38,005 --> 00:05:40,565
Speaker 2: instead of bullying me because of that name, he put

92
00:05:40,565 --> 00:05:42,445
Speaker 2: his arm around me and he said it was a

93
00:05:42,605 --> 00:05:46,085
Speaker 2: very important name that I should be proud of. And

94
00:05:47,445 --> 00:05:49,965
Speaker 2: I didn't really know anything else at that point but

95
00:05:50,205 --> 00:05:53,325
Speaker 2: to be proud of being Italian. So it was something

96
00:05:53,365 --> 00:05:55,765
Speaker 2: that he found in me that you know, kind of

97
00:05:55,805 --> 00:05:56,445
Speaker 2: pulled me in.

98
00:05:57,365 --> 00:06:00,365
Speaker 1: And this guy, what was his background.

99
00:06:00,725 --> 00:06:04,005
Speaker 2: So the man who recruited me, you know, he was

100
00:06:04,045 --> 00:06:06,845
Speaker 2: probably twice my age. His name was Clark Martel, and

101
00:06:06,925 --> 00:06:10,565
Speaker 2: he happened to be America's first the Nazi skinhead leader.

102
00:06:11,405 --> 00:06:13,525
Speaker 2: You know, it was nineteen eighty seven when I was recruited.

103
00:06:13,525 --> 00:06:15,325
Speaker 2: I didn't know what a skinhead was. You know, it

104
00:06:15,365 --> 00:06:18,565
Speaker 2: was very new to the United States. So a man

105
00:06:18,645 --> 00:06:21,765
Speaker 2: with a shaved head and wearing beans, it was really

106
00:06:21,845 --> 00:06:22,365
Speaker 2: foreign to.

107
00:06:22,445 --> 00:06:26,245
Speaker 1: Me, right, But he had a look oh yeah, yeah.

108
00:06:26,045 --> 00:06:28,165
Speaker 2: Yeah, he had tattoos, and he had a shaved head

109
00:06:28,205 --> 00:06:31,405
Speaker 2: and you know, he talked about things that I didn't

110
00:06:31,445 --> 00:06:34,445
Speaker 2: quite understand at fourteen years old. But instead of focusing

111
00:06:34,485 --> 00:06:37,645
Speaker 2: on politics, what he focused on was my sense of

112
00:06:37,965 --> 00:06:41,045
Speaker 2: searching for an identity and a community and a purpose

113
00:06:41,125 --> 00:06:43,365
Speaker 2: because I was kind of a lonely kid. You know,

114
00:06:43,405 --> 00:06:46,925
Speaker 2: I was ambitious, but I was also very shy, and

115
00:06:47,005 --> 00:06:48,885
Speaker 2: I didn't have a lot of self esteem. And he

116
00:06:48,965 --> 00:06:52,125
Speaker 2: recognized that right away. He was an amazing recruiter. He

117
00:06:52,205 --> 00:06:55,085
Speaker 2: saw the voids in me, you know, what I call

118
00:06:55,165 --> 00:06:58,685
Speaker 2: potholes in my book. He saw the potholes that existed

119
00:06:58,725 --> 00:07:02,125
Speaker 2: in my life, and belonging and acceptance and a sense

120
00:07:02,165 --> 00:07:06,525
Speaker 2: of isolation were my potholes. And he recognized that right away,

121
00:07:06,525 --> 00:07:09,205
Speaker 2: and he drew me in and he promised me paradise.

122
00:07:09,245 --> 00:07:13,125
Speaker 2: He gave me friends, He delivered very quickly on those

123
00:07:13,165 --> 00:07:16,885
Speaker 2: things that were missing in my life. And unfortunately, I,

124
00:07:17,485 --> 00:07:20,765
Speaker 2: you know, I bought into that unaware of the politics

125
00:07:20,765 --> 00:07:22,205
Speaker 2: really of it all. You know, it was all very

126
00:07:22,245 --> 00:07:24,365
Speaker 2: foreigns I mean, but I bought in very very quickly.

127
00:07:24,685 --> 00:07:29,645
Speaker 1: What what happens between that initial conversation with a fourteen

128
00:07:29,725 --> 00:07:32,605
Speaker 1: year old boy smoking joint on his own, What what

129
00:07:32,685 --> 00:07:37,405
Speaker 1: happens after that? Like is there, Is there a clubhouse?

130
00:07:37,885 --> 00:07:41,325
Speaker 1: Is there? A meeting? Is there? How do you how

131
00:07:41,325 --> 00:07:44,325
Speaker 1: do you go from that initial meeting to then becoming

132
00:07:44,365 --> 00:07:48,325
Speaker 1: embedded and a part of his fledgling movement?

133
00:07:48,845 --> 00:07:52,045
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I guess our clubhouse was just the backstreets,

134
00:07:52,085 --> 00:07:55,565
Speaker 2: the alleyways, you know, behind our homes, where we grew up,

135
00:07:55,565 --> 00:07:57,645
Speaker 2: where we hung out and where we played as kids.

136
00:07:57,965 --> 00:08:00,405
Speaker 2: It was also the place where these skinheads. This this

137
00:08:00,485 --> 00:08:04,605
Speaker 2: group of skinheads hung out and drank beer and you know,

138
00:08:04,925 --> 00:08:08,805
Speaker 2: and mess around with girls and you know, had fun

139
00:08:09,045 --> 00:08:12,725
Speaker 2: and in their own ways. And then it became very political.

140
00:08:12,725 --> 00:08:15,525
Speaker 2: But it was kind of a family that I really

141
00:08:15,565 --> 00:08:18,485
Speaker 2: didn't have at that point because my parents, while they

142
00:08:18,485 --> 00:08:21,725
Speaker 2: were good, amazing people, you know, and I'm so proud

143
00:08:21,965 --> 00:08:25,285
Speaker 2: to call them my family, were also busy because they

144
00:08:25,325 --> 00:08:27,725
Speaker 2: were immigrants and they were working seven days a week

145
00:08:27,765 --> 00:08:30,405
Speaker 2: and they were away fourteen hours a day. So I

146
00:08:30,485 --> 00:08:33,205
Speaker 2: really didn't have a family. And this skinhead group became

147
00:08:33,245 --> 00:08:35,645
Speaker 2: my family, and the streets kind of became my home.

148
00:08:36,285 --> 00:08:39,445
Speaker 1: So you transitioned into them being your kind of de

149
00:08:39,525 --> 00:08:42,965
Speaker 1: facto family. This group of people. How many of them

150
00:08:43,005 --> 00:08:43,525
Speaker 1: were they.

151
00:08:43,845 --> 00:08:46,765
Speaker 2: It was a group of about twenty skinheads, both male

152
00:08:46,805 --> 00:08:49,645
Speaker 2: and female, you know, ranging and I was the youngest,

153
00:08:49,645 --> 00:08:52,445
Speaker 2: but arranging in ages from you know, sixteen or seventeen

154
00:08:52,525 --> 00:08:57,645
Speaker 2: years old to their late twenties. And you know, they

155
00:08:57,685 --> 00:09:00,085
Speaker 2: were a rough bunch, but there were you know, smart people,

156
00:09:00,085 --> 00:09:02,565
Speaker 2: There were funny people. There were kind of what you know,

157
00:09:02,645 --> 00:09:05,205
Speaker 2: any group of you know, friends would have. You know,

158
00:09:05,365 --> 00:09:08,125
Speaker 2: were all represented as part of this group. And the

159
00:09:08,205 --> 00:09:11,605
Speaker 2: only difference was that the thing, the glue that brought

160
00:09:11,605 --> 00:09:15,565
Speaker 2: them together was hey, it was racism, it was anti semitism,

161
00:09:15,645 --> 00:09:18,805
Speaker 2: it was conspiracy theories that bonded us all together with

162
00:09:18,925 --> 00:09:19,325
Speaker 2: each other.

163
00:09:19,605 --> 00:09:23,685
Speaker 1: Fourteen is the age at which boys in particular, well

164
00:09:23,725 --> 00:09:26,765
Speaker 1: girls do as well, but they have they can fall

165
00:09:26,805 --> 00:09:31,405
Speaker 1: in love with their idols. And you, I imagine were

166
00:09:31,445 --> 00:09:34,765
Speaker 1: the youngest was in this in this group, and so

167
00:09:34,925 --> 00:09:36,445
Speaker 1: you were kind of a mascot.

168
00:09:36,525 --> 00:09:40,125
Speaker 2: I imagine I was what they called the flunky. You know,

169
00:09:40,125 --> 00:09:42,725
Speaker 2: they sent me around to kind of do their bidding.

170
00:09:42,965 --> 00:09:45,805
Speaker 2: You know, I bought cigarettes at the store for them

171
00:09:45,845 --> 00:09:47,965
Speaker 2: when they were out of cigarettes at that time. You know,

172
00:09:48,045 --> 00:09:50,485
Speaker 2: you could you can walk into a store without you know,

173
00:09:50,565 --> 00:09:52,645
Speaker 2: being asked for an idea. It was you know, the

174
00:09:52,925 --> 00:09:57,525
Speaker 2: eighties was a little bit more lax and Christian, the

175
00:09:57,565 --> 00:10:00,925
Speaker 2: good old taste, right. But yeah, you know I became

176
00:10:01,005 --> 00:10:03,725
Speaker 2: their mascot. I think that's a really accurate word for

177
00:10:03,725 --> 00:10:06,765
Speaker 2: for who I was. And you know, they saw in

178
00:10:06,845 --> 00:10:09,965
Speaker 2: me somebody that they can mold, and you know, very quickly,

179
00:10:10,005 --> 00:10:12,365
Speaker 2: because I was ambitious, I bought it. You know, I started.

180
00:10:12,445 --> 00:10:16,605
Speaker 2: I started to do really awful things to find that acceptance.

181
00:10:16,645 --> 00:10:18,645
Speaker 2: I started to get in street fights. I started to

182
00:10:18,725 --> 00:10:22,965
Speaker 2: use the language that they used. You know, I was

183
00:10:23,045 --> 00:10:26,445
Speaker 2: a mean person very quickly and hardened, you know, from

184
00:10:26,565 --> 00:10:29,605
Speaker 2: having rocks in my pockets at thirteen and a half

185
00:10:29,685 --> 00:10:32,685
Speaker 2: to suddenly being a street fighter at fourteen years old

186
00:10:32,725 --> 00:10:35,445
Speaker 2: and doing things that you know, most adults weren't doing.

187
00:10:35,925 --> 00:10:39,205
Speaker 1: And because your parents were working really hard, as you said,

188
00:10:39,245 --> 00:10:43,085
Speaker 1: like your dad was running a hair salon, your mum

189
00:10:43,165 --> 00:10:46,805
Speaker 1: was running a restaurant, so long hours. Who else was

190
00:10:46,845 --> 00:10:49,485
Speaker 1: at home? What was your sibling situation?

191
00:10:49,925 --> 00:10:54,205
Speaker 2: So I had a brother who we were ten years apart,

192
00:10:54,245 --> 00:10:56,125
Speaker 2: so at fourteen years old, he would have been four

193
00:10:56,205 --> 00:10:59,485
Speaker 2: years old, and both of us were really raised by

194
00:10:59,525 --> 00:11:02,325
Speaker 2: my grandparents and aunts and uncles, people, you know, whoever

195
00:11:02,485 --> 00:11:06,605
Speaker 2: was around at the moment, whoever could you know, dedicate

196
00:11:06,645 --> 00:11:09,685
Speaker 2: time to watching us. And I was really close to

197
00:11:09,765 --> 00:11:12,445
Speaker 2: my brother for the first four years of his life.

198
00:11:13,285 --> 00:11:16,565
Speaker 2: And when I, you know, found this new group, it became,

199
00:11:16,965 --> 00:11:20,565
Speaker 2: you know, my primary existence. So I really lost track

200
00:11:20,645 --> 00:11:23,725
Speaker 2: of both my family and you know, an any the

201
00:11:23,765 --> 00:11:27,445
Speaker 2: few friends that I had before then. But yeah, it

202
00:11:27,485 --> 00:11:31,245
Speaker 2: really just became my sole dedication and very quickly rose

203
00:11:31,765 --> 00:11:34,605
Speaker 2: within the ranks of this group and kind of over

204
00:11:35,885 --> 00:11:39,965
Speaker 2: delivered on everything that you know, that I was involved in.

205
00:11:40,005 --> 00:11:43,285
Speaker 2: I became the singer of a band at sixteen years old.

206
00:11:43,445 --> 00:11:46,565
Speaker 2: You know where I became a mass propagandist. I was

207
00:11:46,605 --> 00:11:49,725
Speaker 2: through my lyrics and music and singing on stage who

208
00:11:49,765 --> 00:11:52,445
Speaker 2: was delivering the message of our movement and trying to

209
00:11:52,485 --> 00:11:55,645
Speaker 2: recruit other young people, other broken young people like me,

210
00:11:56,725 --> 00:11:58,765
Speaker 2: because we weren't looking for the best of the best.

211
00:11:58,805 --> 00:12:01,205
Speaker 2: We were looking for the most broken, the ones who

212
00:12:01,245 --> 00:12:03,645
Speaker 2: were the low hanging fruit, the ones who were easy

213
00:12:04,365 --> 00:12:07,325
Speaker 2: to promise paradise too. And if that sounds familiar, this

214
00:12:07,485 --> 00:12:10,725
Speaker 2: is also the kind of the theme other terrorist groups

215
00:12:11,165 --> 00:12:13,885
Speaker 2: is they really look for people they can they can

216
00:12:13,925 --> 00:12:16,805
Speaker 2: promise a better life, even though that better life is

217
00:12:18,885 --> 00:12:21,005
Speaker 2: not accurate. It's not a better life it's it's a

218
00:12:21,005 --> 00:12:23,245
Speaker 2: broken life and a broken ideology.

219
00:12:23,645 --> 00:12:28,125
Speaker 1: So Christian, the white power group that recruited you, what

220
00:12:28,325 --> 00:12:32,125
Speaker 1: was their goal, what was their ideology, what was their aim?

221
00:12:32,685 --> 00:12:35,085
Speaker 2: Well, I think what they told to the outside world

222
00:12:35,165 --> 00:12:37,765
Speaker 2: and what they talked about internally were two different things.

223
00:12:37,845 --> 00:12:40,125
Speaker 2: I think to the outside world they would profess that

224
00:12:40,205 --> 00:12:42,485
Speaker 2: it was just about pride, that it was about being

225
00:12:42,525 --> 00:12:45,565
Speaker 2: proud of being white, and that they believed that white

226
00:12:45,605 --> 00:12:48,965
Speaker 2: culture was being pushed to the sidelines for the benefit

227
00:12:49,005 --> 00:12:52,325
Speaker 2: of other cultures. Internally, I can tell you that it

228
00:12:52,405 --> 00:12:55,445
Speaker 2: was about white supremacy. They believed that white people were

229
00:12:55,485 --> 00:12:59,885
Speaker 2: more superior to other races, that other races were, you know,

230
00:12:59,885 --> 00:13:04,005
Speaker 2: in some cases what they would claim is subhuman, and

231
00:13:04,325 --> 00:13:07,285
Speaker 2: that they wanted to build a world in a society

232
00:13:07,325 --> 00:13:10,365
Speaker 2: that excluded everybody that was and white, and even more

233
00:13:10,405 --> 00:13:13,565
Speaker 2: specifically that wasn't white males, because they believed that white

234
00:13:13,605 --> 00:13:17,245
Speaker 2: men were more superior than even white women. So it

235
00:13:17,285 --> 00:13:20,685
Speaker 2: was it was completely a culture and an ideology of hate,

236
00:13:21,165 --> 00:13:25,885
Speaker 2: of exclusion, and of benefit only to powerful white men.

237
00:13:26,485 --> 00:13:30,045
Speaker 1: And is that the ideology that persiss today even Oh?

238
00:13:30,085 --> 00:13:34,805
Speaker 2: I think it's it's identical to the ideology that persists today,

239
00:13:35,205 --> 00:13:38,165
Speaker 2: although maybe some words have been massaged a little bit

240
00:13:38,285 --> 00:13:41,325
Speaker 2: and maybe even you know a little bit easier to

241
00:13:41,405 --> 00:13:45,925
Speaker 2: swallow or more palatable. You know, white power became white nationalism.

242
00:13:46,005 --> 00:13:48,485
Speaker 2: Even that in itself is it's kind of a tone

243
00:13:48,525 --> 00:13:50,445
Speaker 2: down version, you know.

244
00:13:51,005 --> 00:13:53,965
Speaker 3: Well, the term patriot, Yeah, the term patriot or even

245
00:13:54,005 --> 00:13:57,965
Speaker 3: waving you know, a country's flag now is being used

246
00:13:58,005 --> 00:14:02,085
Speaker 3: to hide behind, to cover up the fact that they want.

247
00:14:01,885 --> 00:14:04,925
Speaker 2: To exclude other people. It really, you know, they've gotten

248
00:14:04,965 --> 00:14:07,725
Speaker 2: very good at their marketing these days, at the propaganda.

249
00:14:07,845 --> 00:14:10,565
Speaker 2: We recognized years ago. I was involved in the movement,

250
00:14:10,885 --> 00:14:13,325
Speaker 2: and I called this the move from boots to suits.

251
00:14:14,165 --> 00:14:17,525
Speaker 2: Where we stopped shaving our heads, we stopped putting swastika

252
00:14:17,525 --> 00:14:20,965
Speaker 2: flags and swastika symbols on our body, We grew our

253
00:14:21,045 --> 00:14:24,285
Speaker 2: hair out, and we went to wear suits. We recognized

254
00:14:24,325 --> 00:14:26,565
Speaker 2: that if we used those words and those symbols, we

255
00:14:26,565 --> 00:14:30,885
Speaker 2: were scaring away even the average white rapist, that those

256
00:14:30,925 --> 00:14:33,325
Speaker 2: symbols were even too much for those people. So we

257
00:14:33,445 --> 00:14:36,125
Speaker 2: toned it down and we started to you know, change

258
00:14:36,125 --> 00:14:39,005
Speaker 2: it from an anti Jewish message to something we called

259
00:14:39,045 --> 00:14:42,805
Speaker 2: anti globalism. Right, Even that in itself is a tone

260
00:14:42,845 --> 00:14:45,645
Speaker 2: down version of more palatable word for the same thing.

261
00:14:46,605 --> 00:14:51,405
Speaker 2: So the marketing message was to break into the mainstream.

262
00:14:51,525 --> 00:14:54,365
Speaker 2: You know, there were people who were grand Dragons, leaders

263
00:14:54,365 --> 00:14:58,085
Speaker 2: of the ku Klux Klan, who dropped the white suit

264
00:14:58,125 --> 00:15:00,005
Speaker 2: and the pointy hat and started to put on a

265
00:15:00,045 --> 00:15:03,365
Speaker 2: three piece suit and become politicians in our country. And

266
00:15:04,045 --> 00:15:06,525
Speaker 2: by virtue of doing that and the words that they

267
00:15:06,565 --> 00:15:08,965
Speaker 2: chose to use, they were able to recruit more people

268
00:15:09,005 --> 00:15:12,365
Speaker 2: in mainstream into this ideology of hate.

269
00:15:12,085 --> 00:15:16,005
Speaker 1: Which of course is is so effective and so insidious.

270
00:15:16,285 --> 00:15:21,685
Speaker 1: So then there's more of an opportunity to embrace the masses.

271
00:15:22,765 --> 00:15:25,885
Speaker 2: Well, they've used things that are hard to argue against

272
00:15:25,925 --> 00:15:31,405
Speaker 2: free speech and you know, things that patriotism and nationalism

273
00:15:31,845 --> 00:15:34,805
Speaker 2: where people can hide behind these these messages that have

274
00:15:34,885 --> 00:15:38,365
Speaker 2: other motives of exclusion and of hatred, you know, and

275
00:15:38,805 --> 00:15:42,765
Speaker 2: really of something that's called accelerationism, where they've embraced kind

276
00:15:42,805 --> 00:15:46,405
Speaker 2: of burning down society to rebuild it in the image

277
00:15:46,445 --> 00:15:48,765
Speaker 2: that they want to build it in, and burning it

278
00:15:48,805 --> 00:15:51,205
Speaker 2: down means doing away with all the people that they

279
00:15:51,245 --> 00:15:54,525
Speaker 2: would exclude from that society. So I think that's very

280
00:15:54,565 --> 00:15:56,645
Speaker 2: much of what's happening in the world today. You know,

281
00:15:56,725 --> 00:16:01,125
Speaker 2: maybe even more specifically in the United States, where you know,

282
00:16:01,205 --> 00:16:05,245
Speaker 2: we are starting now to elect people who have the

283
00:16:05,285 --> 00:16:09,405
Speaker 2: same exact messaging, albeit maybe with slightly different words, in

284
00:16:09,485 --> 00:16:11,685
Speaker 2: a different look than what a fourteen year old neo

285
00:16:11,765 --> 00:16:14,725
Speaker 2: Nazi skin a Christian Patuli would have done in nineteen

286
00:16:14,765 --> 00:16:18,005
Speaker 2: eighty seven. It's the same message, it's the same movement.

287
00:16:18,045 --> 00:16:22,485
Speaker 2: It's just a lot better looking to the average person

288
00:16:22,725 --> 00:16:26,005
Speaker 2: and easier for them to swallow the same type of bile,

289
00:16:26,885 --> 00:16:30,485
Speaker 2: you know, weight supremacy and neo Nazism. You know that

290
00:16:30,605 --> 00:16:32,245
Speaker 2: I was a part of at one point.

291
00:16:32,525 --> 00:16:36,725
Speaker 1: A common sort of tray in a lot of religious

292
00:16:36,725 --> 00:16:40,445
Speaker 1: sex as well, is looking for those people who were disenfranchised,

293
00:16:40,445 --> 00:16:43,805
Speaker 1: who were lonely, who are sad, who are hopeless. Right,

294
00:16:43,965 --> 00:16:48,645
Speaker 1: But you were quite extraordinary because you went from being

295
00:16:48,765 --> 00:16:51,965
Speaker 1: fourteen and that kid on the street who got recruited

296
00:16:52,045 --> 00:16:57,165
Speaker 1: to at sixteen, you were running the outfit when the

297
00:16:57,245 --> 00:16:59,445
Speaker 1: leader went to jail, Is that right?

298
00:16:59,885 --> 00:17:03,645
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, Clark and several of the leaders at that

299
00:17:03,685 --> 00:17:06,085
Speaker 2: point within our group had gone to prison for a

300
00:17:06,165 --> 00:17:09,325
Speaker 2: series of very violent hate crimes that they were involved in,

301
00:17:10,085 --> 00:17:13,685
Speaker 2: and you know, anybody else who was left started to

302
00:17:13,765 --> 00:17:16,645
Speaker 2: run from the police because they were they were being investigated,

303
00:17:16,685 --> 00:17:19,125
Speaker 2: so they moved away and kind of went into hiding.

304
00:17:19,165 --> 00:17:21,405
Speaker 2: And at that point all that was left was me.

305
00:17:22,125 --> 00:17:24,925
Speaker 2: Uh So here I was sixteen, I'd been indoctrinated now

306
00:17:25,045 --> 00:17:28,445
Speaker 2: for two years. I'd fully bought in. I was ambitious.

307
00:17:28,725 --> 00:17:31,925
Speaker 2: I had mimicked the you know, the rhetoric I had,

308
00:17:31,965 --> 00:17:34,965
Speaker 2: you know, I there was no you know, no other

309
00:17:34,965 --> 00:17:37,005
Speaker 2: way to say it. I was in. I was a

310
00:17:37,045 --> 00:17:39,765
Speaker 2: true believer at that point. But I was also because

311
00:17:39,805 --> 00:17:41,845
Speaker 2: I was ambitious, and maybe it was because my parents

312
00:17:41,845 --> 00:17:45,885
Speaker 2: were entrepreneurs. I saw an opportunity, uh to to kind

313
00:17:45,885 --> 00:17:49,845
Speaker 2: of restart this group and become a leader myself. So

314
00:17:49,925 --> 00:17:53,325
Speaker 2: I started at that point to ramp up the propaganda

315
00:17:53,405 --> 00:17:56,285
Speaker 2: and recruit other young people, people that I had gone

316
00:17:56,325 --> 00:17:59,085
Speaker 2: to school with, people who had bullied me in the past,

317
00:17:59,405 --> 00:18:02,045
Speaker 2: because I knew I saw in them also some brokenness

318
00:18:02,085 --> 00:18:05,085
Speaker 2: that that could be used as well. And very quickly

319
00:18:05,165 --> 00:18:10,445
Speaker 2: kind of you know, re established this organization and and

320
00:18:10,725 --> 00:18:13,845
Speaker 2: merge it with a much larger national Skin had organization

321
00:18:13,965 --> 00:18:16,365
Speaker 2: called the Hamletskin Nation at that time.

322
00:18:17,045 --> 00:18:22,285
Speaker 1: So you had gone from being powerless to having this

323
00:18:22,445 --> 00:18:28,605
Speaker 1: sense of power. Yeah, andsp sure, but when people are

324
00:18:28,605 --> 00:18:31,845
Speaker 1: looking in the microcosm of their life. You know, they

325
00:18:31,885 --> 00:18:36,365
Speaker 1: look for something that's going to affirm them as a person.

326
00:18:36,405 --> 00:18:39,445
Speaker 1: And that was what you had found when you talk

327
00:18:39,525 --> 00:18:45,605
Speaker 1: about the crimes that other members had gone to jail for.

328
00:18:46,165 --> 00:18:48,445
Speaker 1: What was the nature of them and what were you

329
00:18:48,525 --> 00:18:53,405
Speaker 1: doing at that time? Because to assert yourself and your dominance,

330
00:18:53,485 --> 00:18:56,805
Speaker 1: you would have had to prove that you could be

331
00:18:56,885 --> 00:18:59,005
Speaker 1: equally violent, equally hate filled.

332
00:18:59,565 --> 00:19:02,245
Speaker 2: Yeah, what they were involved in was you know, a

333
00:19:02,325 --> 00:19:05,085
Speaker 2: level of street violence that luckily I never kind of

334
00:19:05,165 --> 00:19:08,005
Speaker 2: rose to. I chose a different path, and that was

335
00:19:08,085 --> 00:19:11,725
Speaker 2: as a propagandist, uh And I found my power kind

336
00:19:11,725 --> 00:19:14,645
Speaker 2: of more in the in the celebrity part of the movement,

337
00:19:14,685 --> 00:19:16,965
Speaker 2: where you know, I was a singer on stage. I

338
00:19:17,005 --> 00:19:20,365
Speaker 2: was in one of America's earliest uh you know, skinhead

339
00:19:20,365 --> 00:19:23,205
Speaker 2: white power bands. So people looked up to me because

340
00:19:23,205 --> 00:19:26,285
Speaker 2: of that, you know, quote unquote celebrity. So I was

341
00:19:26,325 --> 00:19:29,125
Speaker 2: a spokesperson. But the people that you know came before

342
00:19:29,205 --> 00:19:33,325
Speaker 2: me went to prison for for you know, a series

343
00:19:33,365 --> 00:19:38,485
Speaker 2: of violent hate crimes against Blacks and Jews were on

344
00:19:38,525 --> 00:19:42,005
Speaker 2: the anniversary of Crystal Knocked, which is you know, the

345
00:19:42,125 --> 00:19:45,565
Speaker 2: night of Broken Glass that the Nazis uh in Germany

346
00:19:45,645 --> 00:19:49,525
Speaker 2: had perpetrated against the Jews. They recreated that and broke

347
00:19:49,605 --> 00:19:52,685
Speaker 2: windows of Jewish shops in the Chicago area where I'm from,

348
00:19:53,325 --> 00:19:57,565
Speaker 2: uh and and also attacked one of their own members,

349
00:19:57,565 --> 00:20:00,725
Speaker 2: a woman who was a skinhead, who was part of

350
00:20:00,765 --> 00:20:04,245
Speaker 2: our group, who had started to kind of leave the organization.

351
00:20:04,405 --> 00:20:07,925
Speaker 2: She had been seen with with a black man at

352
00:20:07,965 --> 00:20:12,045
Speaker 2: a bus stop, and they attacked her. They put you know,

353
00:20:12,165 --> 00:20:16,725
Speaker 2: they committed a violent act on her that put her

354
00:20:16,765 --> 00:20:21,005
Speaker 2: in the hospital and once prison for that. So you know,

355
00:20:21,085 --> 00:20:23,445
Speaker 2: while I, you know, I certainly wasn't any angel. I

356
00:20:23,485 --> 00:20:27,125
Speaker 2: was involved in my fair share of street fights, you know,

357
00:20:27,165 --> 00:20:29,725
Speaker 2: it never really rose to that level, even though I,

358
00:20:29,765 --> 00:20:34,565
Speaker 2: you know, I certainly hurt people, and you know, I

359
00:20:34,965 --> 00:20:38,805
Speaker 2: also hurt people because I indoctrinated them, and maybe even

360
00:20:38,805 --> 00:20:43,405
Speaker 2: more so, you know, destroyed more lives through the words

361
00:20:43,445 --> 00:20:44,325
Speaker 2: that I said.

362
00:20:44,645 --> 00:20:48,285
Speaker 1: And the lyrics that you sang, yeah, and the following

363
00:20:48,285 --> 00:20:51,805
Speaker 1: that your band had, which was quite a sort of

364
00:20:51,885 --> 00:20:54,125
Speaker 1: a powerful presence in that movement.

365
00:20:54,645 --> 00:20:56,525
Speaker 2: I still think about all the lives of you know,

366
00:20:56,605 --> 00:20:59,245
Speaker 2: people who may not have gone down the path of hate,

367
00:20:59,725 --> 00:21:03,565
Speaker 2: that that somehow I radicalized through my lyrics, that maybe

368
00:21:03,605 --> 00:21:05,325
Speaker 2: their lives would have been different had they not come

369
00:21:05,365 --> 00:21:06,285
Speaker 2: across my music.

370
00:21:06,885 --> 00:21:09,565
Speaker 1: So, you know, at home in this period, Chris, and

371
00:21:09,605 --> 00:21:12,725
Speaker 1: even though your parents were so busy and your nona

372
00:21:12,805 --> 00:21:16,005
Speaker 1: and Nona were looking after you and probably not o

373
00:21:16,205 --> 00:21:22,365
Speaker 1: fay with you know, any white supremacist movement, but Italians

374
00:21:22,365 --> 00:21:26,045
Speaker 1: are familiar with fascists. So when you were coming home

375
00:21:26,085 --> 00:21:29,565
Speaker 1: and looking different, I imagine at that point you'd adopted

376
00:21:29,565 --> 00:21:33,165
Speaker 1: the uniform, you'd bought your first pair of Doc Martins.

377
00:21:33,685 --> 00:21:36,725
Speaker 1: It was always Doc Martin's. Did you have a tattoo?

378
00:21:37,325 --> 00:21:40,165
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I got my first tattoo at fifteen years old,

379
00:21:40,205 --> 00:21:42,725
Speaker 2: and you know, at fourteen shaved my head and my

380
00:21:42,805 --> 00:21:45,725
Speaker 2: first pair of Doc Martins were given to me by

381
00:21:46,085 --> 00:21:49,445
Speaker 2: you know, the skinhead leader that recruited me. You know,

382
00:21:49,525 --> 00:21:52,445
Speaker 2: I came home wearing you know, a bomber jacket with

383
00:21:52,685 --> 00:21:58,045
Speaker 2: patches that were you know, certainly provocative. It's you know,

384
00:21:58,085 --> 00:22:00,325
Speaker 2: I think at fourteen and fifteen years old, I probably

385
00:22:00,325 --> 00:22:02,485
Speaker 2: did a good job of hiding it from my family,

386
00:22:02,685 --> 00:22:06,525
Speaker 2: right because I still wasn't, you know, very self confident.

387
00:22:07,525 --> 00:22:10,725
Speaker 2: But you know, very quickly after that, I wasn't ashamed

388
00:22:10,725 --> 00:22:12,605
Speaker 2: to show them who I was. And I think once

389
00:22:12,645 --> 00:22:15,365
Speaker 2: they recognized what I was involved, and they were horrified,

390
00:22:16,205 --> 00:22:18,485
Speaker 2: and they tried to do things. They tried to talk

391
00:22:18,525 --> 00:22:20,245
Speaker 2: to me, they tried to sit me down. But at

392
00:22:20,245 --> 00:22:23,325
Speaker 2: that point I had already become so bitter against my

393
00:22:23,445 --> 00:22:27,525
Speaker 2: family for what I felt was abandonment that I kind

394
00:22:27,525 --> 00:22:30,605
Speaker 2: of used it against them to hurt them. You know,

395
00:22:30,605 --> 00:22:32,845
Speaker 2: I threw it in their face because I knew that

396
00:22:32,925 --> 00:22:35,125
Speaker 2: what I was doing and who I was was an

397
00:22:35,165 --> 00:22:37,445
Speaker 2: affront to who they were and how they had raised me,

398
00:22:38,285 --> 00:22:40,085
Speaker 2: because I was, you know, as a kid, I'd always

399
00:22:40,085 --> 00:22:42,645
Speaker 2: been introduced to two different cultures, you know, as a

400
00:22:42,685 --> 00:22:45,765
Speaker 2: young boy. They you know, they had friends who were

401
00:22:45,925 --> 00:22:48,565
Speaker 2: you know, from other countries and other religions and other

402
00:22:48,605 --> 00:22:51,645
Speaker 2: parts of the world that you know, that were very

403
00:22:51,685 --> 00:22:54,285
Speaker 2: different than than how I'd been raised. So you know,

404
00:22:54,605 --> 00:22:57,085
Speaker 2: it wasn't who I was. And when they figured out

405
00:22:57,125 --> 00:22:59,285
Speaker 2: that that's who I was, that I was this aiter,

406
00:23:00,325 --> 00:23:03,005
Speaker 2: I think it horrified them and it hurt them a

407
00:23:03,045 --> 00:23:05,325
Speaker 2: great deal. But by then I think it was too late.

408
00:23:06,205 --> 00:23:08,005
Speaker 2: You know, it was too late because I had used

409
00:23:08,045 --> 00:23:10,805
Speaker 2: it against them to hurt them. But it was also

410
00:23:10,845 --> 00:23:13,365
Speaker 2: too late because now I had given up everything in

411
00:23:13,405 --> 00:23:16,365
Speaker 2: my life to become part of this movement, and it

412
00:23:16,445 --> 00:23:19,765
Speaker 2: was very difficult to imagine letting go of that because

413
00:23:20,045 --> 00:23:22,205
Speaker 2: I had wrapped myself up at it so much.

414
00:23:26,045 --> 00:23:29,285
Speaker 1: After the break Christian Chase, how others tried to pull

415
00:23:29,405 --> 00:23:33,605
Speaker 1: him away from the cult and how he reacted will

416
00:23:33,605 --> 00:23:39,005
Speaker 1: be right back. Was there a moment of whether they

417
00:23:39,045 --> 00:23:42,685
Speaker 1: attempted a significant intervention or was it an ongoing thing

418
00:23:42,805 --> 00:23:44,085
Speaker 1: because you were still living at home.

419
00:23:44,485 --> 00:23:48,245
Speaker 2: So I had moved out at around fifteen years old.

420
00:23:48,725 --> 00:23:50,245
Speaker 2: When I say I moved out, I moved into the

421
00:23:50,245 --> 00:23:53,725
Speaker 2: basement apartment of my parent home. It was a multi

422
00:23:53,725 --> 00:23:56,325
Speaker 2: story apartment building, but I had commandeered kind of a

423
00:23:56,365 --> 00:23:59,565
Speaker 2: basement apartment for myself, so I had my own entrance

424
00:23:59,605 --> 00:24:02,405
Speaker 2: in kitchen and everything, and I came and went as

425
00:24:02,405 --> 00:24:04,765
Speaker 2: I pleased. So at fifteen years old, I was essentially

426
00:24:04,805 --> 00:24:07,965
Speaker 2: on my own. I had a job and I supported

427
00:24:08,005 --> 00:24:11,405
Speaker 2: myself at that time. But around sixteen years old is

428
00:24:11,005 --> 00:24:13,685
Speaker 2: when they really started to intervene, and it really didn't

429
00:24:13,725 --> 00:24:16,445
Speaker 2: stop until I was out, you know, at almost twenty

430
00:24:16,485 --> 00:24:18,525
Speaker 2: three years old. They really never gave up on me,

431
00:24:18,565 --> 00:24:21,045
Speaker 2: and I'm so grateful for that because it was my

432
00:24:21,125 --> 00:24:25,765
Speaker 2: family that, you know, ultimately showed me that that wasn't

433
00:24:25,805 --> 00:24:27,805
Speaker 2: who I was or who I wanted to be anymore.

434
00:24:28,485 --> 00:24:31,325
Speaker 2: You know, at eighteen years old, I got married. I

435
00:24:31,365 --> 00:24:33,445
Speaker 2: met a girl, and I fell in love. At nineteen

436
00:24:33,525 --> 00:24:35,845
Speaker 2: years old, we had our first child. At twenty one,

437
00:24:36,245 --> 00:24:39,765
Speaker 2: we had our second son. And even during that period

438
00:24:39,885 --> 00:24:41,885
Speaker 2: it was very difficult to leave. But I have to

439
00:24:41,965 --> 00:24:44,605
Speaker 2: tell you that having those children was probably the most

440
00:24:45,845 --> 00:24:49,525
Speaker 2: powerful moment to wake me up to see that there

441
00:24:49,725 --> 00:24:52,485
Speaker 2: was another way because for the first time in my life,

442
00:24:53,245 --> 00:24:56,405
Speaker 2: I had something to love, and it challenged my sense

443
00:24:56,405 --> 00:24:59,085
Speaker 2: of identity, community and purpose. And that was really what

444
00:24:59,125 --> 00:25:03,325
Speaker 2: was the most powerful, you know, moment to change me

445
00:25:03,405 --> 00:25:04,085
Speaker 2: going forward.

446
00:25:04,445 --> 00:25:08,365
Speaker 1: So you met you met a girl who was outside

447
00:25:08,445 --> 00:25:11,165
Speaker 1: the movement? Yeah, how did you meet her?

448
00:25:11,925 --> 00:25:14,965
Speaker 2: You know, she had been at a party we you know,

449
00:25:15,245 --> 00:25:16,965
Speaker 2: we had a lot of parties, and we hosted a

450
00:25:17,005 --> 00:25:19,565
Speaker 2: lot of parties because they were recruitment uh you know,

451
00:25:19,685 --> 00:25:22,485
Speaker 2: events for us. Uh. And we had a lot of

452
00:25:22,485 --> 00:25:24,725
Speaker 2: people that came to those parties. And she was somebody

453
00:25:24,725 --> 00:25:27,605
Speaker 2: who never bought into the movement, although she didn't come

454
00:25:27,645 --> 00:25:31,645
Speaker 2: around through mutual friends to some parties and and uh,

455
00:25:31,925 --> 00:25:33,285
Speaker 2: you know, at first, she didn't want anything to do

456
00:25:33,325 --> 00:25:35,965
Speaker 2: with me, because she really was kind of ideologically the

457
00:25:36,005 --> 00:25:39,685
Speaker 2: polar opposite of who I was. But I think over time,

458
00:25:40,365 --> 00:25:42,285
Speaker 2: I don't know if she saw something and maybe that

459
00:25:42,325 --> 00:25:45,765
Speaker 2: I couldn't even see myself, but you know, she maybe

460
00:25:45,845 --> 00:25:49,165
Speaker 2: saw some promise and eventually gave in when I asked

461
00:25:49,285 --> 00:25:52,765
Speaker 2: out on a date and secretly, kind of outside of

462
00:25:52,805 --> 00:25:56,245
Speaker 2: this movement, we spent a lot of time together and uh,

463
00:25:56,405 --> 00:25:58,885
Speaker 2: and I never you know, when when we got eventually

464
00:25:58,885 --> 00:26:01,885
Speaker 2: got married. Uh, it wasn't The movement wasn't something I

465
00:26:01,925 --> 00:26:04,565
Speaker 2: ever wanted to bring home in my family, even though

466
00:26:04,605 --> 00:26:06,445
Speaker 2: she was very well aware of what I was and

467
00:26:06,565 --> 00:26:08,885
Speaker 2: constantly tried to talk me out of it.

468
00:26:09,045 --> 00:26:12,565
Speaker 1: Well, that's interesting, isn't it That you never wanted to

469
00:26:12,565 --> 00:26:15,365
Speaker 1: bring the movement home to your family, So at some

470
00:26:15,525 --> 00:26:19,685
Speaker 1: point you were already alert to the fact that there

471
00:26:19,765 --> 00:26:22,605
Speaker 1: was a duality in you and what you were living.

472
00:26:23,445 --> 00:26:25,085
Speaker 2: Oh. Yeah, I knew it was dirty. I knew it

473
00:26:25,125 --> 00:26:27,445
Speaker 2: was something that I didn't want to expose my children to.

474
00:26:27,645 --> 00:26:29,285
Speaker 2: I knew it was something. You know. The way I

475
00:26:29,285 --> 00:26:31,005
Speaker 2: looked at it back at that time was it was

476
00:26:31,005 --> 00:26:33,325
Speaker 2: something that I could carry on my shoulders outside of

477
00:26:33,365 --> 00:26:35,365
Speaker 2: the family. But it wasn't something that I wanted to

478
00:26:35,365 --> 00:26:37,605
Speaker 2: burden my family with. I thought that I could do

479
00:26:38,085 --> 00:26:41,365
Speaker 2: the dirty work, and I never brought it home. My

480
00:26:41,405 --> 00:26:43,445
Speaker 2: wife was very aware of what I was, you know

481
00:26:43,685 --> 00:26:48,165
Speaker 2: what I was involved and hated it. But you know,

482
00:26:48,165 --> 00:26:50,805
Speaker 2: at the same time, I wasn't brave enough to give

483
00:26:50,845 --> 00:26:52,845
Speaker 2: it up because I didn't want to go back to

484
00:26:52,885 --> 00:26:55,325
Speaker 2: who I was before I joined the movements. I was

485
00:26:55,365 --> 00:26:57,085
Speaker 2: afraid of being a nobody.

486
00:26:57,605 --> 00:27:01,725
Speaker 1: So at that point, because you have had a wedding,

487
00:27:01,925 --> 00:27:05,045
Speaker 1: who came to your wedding? Who was at your wedding?

488
00:27:05,165 --> 00:27:08,125
Speaker 1: Like this is a lot of Italians in one corner

489
00:27:08,325 --> 00:27:10,485
Speaker 1: with their skin in the other corner.

490
00:27:11,125 --> 00:27:13,685
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly what it was. I mean, my best

491
00:27:13,685 --> 00:27:16,365
Speaker 2: men and my groom's men were all, you know, skinheads

492
00:27:16,365 --> 00:27:18,645
Speaker 2: with Doc Martin boots and shaved heads. And all her

493
00:27:18,685 --> 00:27:22,685
Speaker 2: bridesmaids were you know, Catholic school preppy girls. Wow. And

494
00:27:23,125 --> 00:27:25,245
Speaker 2: at the wedding reception, you know, it was a big

495
00:27:25,285 --> 00:27:28,605
Speaker 2: Italian My parents wanted a big Italian wedding, so of

496
00:27:28,605 --> 00:27:31,325
Speaker 2: course all the aunts and uncles and cousins and people

497
00:27:31,445 --> 00:27:33,685
Speaker 2: you know who I hardly knew who were from the

498
00:27:33,725 --> 00:27:35,925
Speaker 2: same time that my parents were from were at the wedding,

499
00:27:35,965 --> 00:27:38,205
Speaker 2: but you know, on the other side of the hall

500
00:27:38,285 --> 00:27:40,485
Speaker 2: were you know, tables of skinheads from all over the

501
00:27:40,525 --> 00:27:43,205
Speaker 2: country who at that point, you know, when my friends

502
00:27:43,245 --> 00:27:46,325
Speaker 2: and wanted wanted to support me. It was really looking back,

503
00:27:46,405 --> 00:27:50,285
Speaker 2: it was kind of a surreal experiment that, you know,

504
00:27:50,325 --> 00:27:52,725
Speaker 2: could have gone wrong in so many more ways than

505
00:27:52,725 --> 00:27:53,085
Speaker 2: I did.

506
00:27:53,485 --> 00:27:56,205
Speaker 1: But I must have known because always, I think when

507
00:27:56,245 --> 00:28:01,285
Speaker 1: people are in these very insular environments, be they religious

508
00:28:01,365 --> 00:28:07,525
Speaker 1: or socio political or whatever, everyone's very attuned to losing

509
00:28:07,605 --> 00:28:11,165
Speaker 1: one of their own. Yeah, so they're all predicated on

510
00:28:11,405 --> 00:28:16,405
Speaker 1: sort of keeping the outside world outside. So they must

511
00:28:16,445 --> 00:28:20,365
Speaker 1: have been aware that when you had your first child

512
00:28:20,605 --> 00:28:23,325
Speaker 1: and you'd meet this girl that you'd married, that you'd

513
00:28:23,325 --> 00:28:26,885
Speaker 1: fallen in love with, that they were slightly losing you.

514
00:28:28,045 --> 00:28:29,805
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think at that point they already knew they

515
00:28:29,845 --> 00:28:33,245
Speaker 2: had lost me. You know, by eighteen years old, I

516
00:28:33,445 --> 00:28:37,805
Speaker 2: was so entrenched in that movement that I think everybody

517
00:28:37,805 --> 00:28:40,205
Speaker 2: had almost given up on the fact that they would

518
00:28:40,205 --> 00:28:43,045
Speaker 2: get me back because I was so committed. I was

519
00:28:43,085 --> 00:28:45,285
Speaker 2: so dedicated to it. At least it seemed like it

520
00:28:45,365 --> 00:28:47,525
Speaker 2: because internally, kid, I got to tell you every day

521
00:28:47,605 --> 00:28:49,365
Speaker 2: from the time I was fourteen years old until I

522
00:28:49,405 --> 00:28:52,205
Speaker 2: was twenty three, there was an internal struggle inside of

523
00:28:52,205 --> 00:28:56,245
Speaker 2: me said, something's not right. Sure, this isn't making sense right.

524
00:28:56,365 --> 00:28:59,085
Speaker 2: Every day when I would meet somebody or i'd come across,

525
00:28:59,165 --> 00:29:01,845
Speaker 2: you know, a new bit of propaganda, I had to

526
00:29:01,885 --> 00:29:05,245
Speaker 2: struggle to swallow it. But I did swallow it because

527
00:29:05,285 --> 00:29:08,645
Speaker 2: it provided me with a reward. I think, much like

528
00:29:08,725 --> 00:29:11,845
Speaker 2: drugs or alcohol does to people who are addicted to

529
00:29:11,885 --> 00:29:14,565
Speaker 2: those things. Uh, you know, they know it's killing them,

530
00:29:14,605 --> 00:29:16,245
Speaker 2: they know it's not doing them any good, but it

531
00:29:16,285 --> 00:29:18,805
Speaker 2: makes them feel good while they're doing it. And I

532
00:29:18,845 --> 00:29:21,325
Speaker 2: think I had very much the same experience. While I

533
00:29:21,405 --> 00:29:24,445
Speaker 2: was doing it, I felt powerful, I felt you know, great,

534
00:29:24,485 --> 00:29:27,085
Speaker 2: I felt like I had this group of you know,

535
00:29:27,285 --> 00:29:30,805
Speaker 2: followers and friends. But I also knew when I saw

536
00:29:30,845 --> 00:29:33,085
Speaker 2: the other side of things that it was killing me

537
00:29:33,125 --> 00:29:36,085
Speaker 2: and it was hurting the people around me. And you know,

538
00:29:36,085 --> 00:29:38,485
Speaker 2: on top of that, I was hurting strangers that you

539
00:29:38,525 --> 00:29:41,885
Speaker 2: know that I was you know, intimidating with my looks,

540
00:29:41,925 --> 00:29:45,365
Speaker 2: with my words, with my actions. Uh, it was it was.

541
00:29:45,485 --> 00:29:48,405
Speaker 2: It was a duality that I was living in and unfortunately,

542
00:29:48,405 --> 00:29:51,285
Speaker 2: for eight years, the kind of evil side of that

543
00:29:51,405 --> 00:29:55,325
Speaker 2: duality won over because it was more powerful until it

544
00:29:55,405 --> 00:29:57,845
Speaker 2: broke me down and it almost left nothing, you know,

545
00:29:58,165 --> 00:29:58,725
Speaker 2: left of me.

546
00:29:59,285 --> 00:30:02,725
Speaker 1: What was the moment that broke you down? Was there

547
00:30:02,765 --> 00:30:04,725
Speaker 1: a critical defining moment.

548
00:30:05,925 --> 00:30:07,725
Speaker 2: I think it was a lot of moments, but I think,

549
00:30:07,805 --> 00:30:11,685
Speaker 2: you know, ultimately, my wife leaving me after four years

550
00:30:11,685 --> 00:30:15,925
Speaker 2: of marriage and taking the custody of the children was

551
00:30:16,605 --> 00:30:19,485
Speaker 2: when I finally realized that what was good in my

552
00:30:19,565 --> 00:30:24,365
Speaker 2: life had had disappeared, had gone, and all that was

553
00:30:24,445 --> 00:30:27,765
Speaker 2: left was hate. And it was at that moment I

554
00:30:27,805 --> 00:30:31,805
Speaker 2: think that I did the hard work of being self

555
00:30:31,805 --> 00:30:34,005
Speaker 2: aware of what I was involved in it at that

556
00:30:34,085 --> 00:30:37,045
Speaker 2: time and the pain that I was causing to other people.

557
00:30:38,245 --> 00:30:40,845
Speaker 2: And you know, I think a lot of a lot

558
00:30:40,845 --> 00:30:43,045
Speaker 2: of things happened. Like I said, it was a struggle

559
00:30:43,045 --> 00:30:44,605
Speaker 2: every day. I don't think there was a day where

560
00:30:44,605 --> 00:30:48,925
Speaker 2: I wasn't questioning what I was involved in until its snowballed,

561
00:30:49,685 --> 00:30:52,485
Speaker 2: you know, to a point where I couldn't ignore the

562
00:30:52,485 --> 00:30:54,845
Speaker 2: fact that I was. I was more broken in this

563
00:30:55,005 --> 00:30:56,245
Speaker 2: movement than I was on of it.

564
00:30:56,725 --> 00:31:00,445
Speaker 1: What did she say to you, she's opting to leave.

565
00:31:01,125 --> 00:31:04,365
Speaker 1: I imagine the only security that she had, which was you,

566
00:31:04,445 --> 00:31:07,365
Speaker 1: With the two children. What did she say to you?

567
00:31:08,125 --> 00:31:10,805
Speaker 2: I can tell you this was thirty years ago, and

568
00:31:10,845 --> 00:31:13,805
Speaker 2: I can still remember the exact words that I made

569
00:31:13,805 --> 00:31:17,285
Speaker 2: her skin crawl. Those were the words that she used

570
00:31:17,325 --> 00:31:19,805
Speaker 2: when she left me. And this was, you know, somebody

571
00:31:19,845 --> 00:31:21,685
Speaker 2: that I was in love with. She was in love

572
00:31:21,685 --> 00:31:24,445
Speaker 2: with me, but had gotten so bad that she told

573
00:31:24,565 --> 00:31:28,085
Speaker 2: me that my you know, my mere presence made her

574
00:31:28,125 --> 00:31:30,165
Speaker 2: skin crawl because of what I was involved in.

575
00:31:30,605 --> 00:31:34,685
Speaker 1: And was that based on a particular event that had happened.

576
00:31:35,405 --> 00:31:37,365
Speaker 2: No, I think it was four years of her really

577
00:31:37,445 --> 00:31:41,605
Speaker 2: trying to hoping that I that she could change me,

578
00:31:41,765 --> 00:31:44,965
Speaker 2: that I would eventually see the priorities of my family

579
00:31:45,045 --> 00:31:49,085
Speaker 2: and my children and walk away. But the truth was

580
00:31:49,165 --> 00:31:52,165
Speaker 2: I wasn't brave enough. I just wasn't courageous or strong

581
00:31:52,245 --> 00:31:54,965
Speaker 2: enough at that point in my life to see that

582
00:31:55,005 --> 00:31:57,245
Speaker 2: my children and my wife should have been the most

583
00:31:57,245 --> 00:32:00,845
Speaker 2: important things to me. Instead, I was afraid of losing

584
00:32:01,005 --> 00:32:03,645
Speaker 2: you know, what I built around me to boost my

585
00:32:03,685 --> 00:32:08,125
Speaker 2: own ego, and I was so entrenched in it that

586
00:32:08,165 --> 00:32:10,805
Speaker 2: I couldn't I couldn't and see what my priorities were,

587
00:32:10,845 --> 00:32:14,885
Speaker 2: and my priorities were selfish, until you know, everything kind

588
00:32:14,885 --> 00:32:16,525
Speaker 2: of crashed around me.

589
00:32:16,685 --> 00:32:19,925
Speaker 1: Which is ironic because in that movement, there's a lot

590
00:32:19,925 --> 00:32:21,885
Speaker 1: of talk about bravery, isn't there.

591
00:32:22,765 --> 00:32:25,885
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I was. Everything that I did was

592
00:32:25,885 --> 00:32:29,085
Speaker 2: was painted as this white warrior, this strong, you know,

593
00:32:29,285 --> 00:32:32,885
Speaker 2: white man who who was doing everything to protect what

594
00:32:32,965 --> 00:32:36,925
Speaker 2: I had, including my family, and everything that I was

595
00:32:36,965 --> 00:32:40,605
Speaker 2: doing was the complete opposite. I was destroying everything. H

596
00:32:40,885 --> 00:32:42,845
Speaker 2: It was a It was a movement built on lies,

597
00:32:43,005 --> 00:32:50,485
Speaker 2: on hate, on deceit, on violence, you know, basically everything

598
00:32:50,525 --> 00:32:55,245
Speaker 2: that was toxic instead of everything that was fulfilling or nurturing.

599
00:32:56,445 --> 00:32:56,965
Speaker 2: I had bought in.

600
00:32:57,525 --> 00:33:03,325
Speaker 1: So at this moment, your wife has left, she's taken

601
00:33:03,365 --> 00:33:10,045
Speaker 1: your children, You're disenfranchised from the movement that you are

602
00:33:10,085 --> 00:33:10,845
Speaker 1: still lading.

603
00:33:11,525 --> 00:33:13,405
Speaker 2: At that point, I was not only leading it, I

604
00:33:14,045 --> 00:33:17,605
Speaker 2: was kind of a you know, a thought leader as

605
00:33:17,605 --> 00:33:21,125
Speaker 2: well as a record store and propaganda leader. So I

606
00:33:21,325 --> 00:33:23,525
Speaker 2: had opened a record store at that point because I

607
00:33:23,525 --> 00:33:26,725
Speaker 2: had stopped being in the band. One of the concessions

608
00:33:26,765 --> 00:33:28,205
Speaker 2: that I had made to my wife at that time

609
00:33:28,365 --> 00:33:30,445
Speaker 2: was I would stop being in the band and traveling

610
00:33:30,445 --> 00:33:33,605
Speaker 2: to play these shows. But the compromise was that I

611
00:33:33,685 --> 00:33:36,285
Speaker 2: was going to open a record store to sell white

612
00:33:36,285 --> 00:33:38,885
Speaker 2: power music that I was importing from all over the world,

613
00:33:39,245 --> 00:33:41,365
Speaker 2: and I was one of the only people at that

614
00:33:41,485 --> 00:33:45,605
Speaker 2: time to physically be selling this racist music that I

615
00:33:45,685 --> 00:33:48,725
Speaker 2: was importing from, you know, places like the UK or

616
00:33:48,765 --> 00:33:52,525
Speaker 2: even from Australia. There were bands that you know in

617
00:33:52,565 --> 00:33:55,525
Speaker 2: the eighties that were very popular within this movement.

618
00:33:56,085 --> 00:33:58,645
Speaker 1: Who were the bands? Who were the bands from Australia?

619
00:33:58,685 --> 00:33:59,405
Speaker 1: Can you remember?

620
00:33:59,965 --> 00:34:01,765
Speaker 2: I don't even want to mention them because I don't

621
00:34:01,765 --> 00:34:04,645
Speaker 2: want to give them any sort of promotion, but you know,

622
00:34:04,685 --> 00:34:07,125
Speaker 2: there were some popular bands from Australia, and there were

623
00:34:07,165 --> 00:34:12,085
Speaker 2: groups in Australia at the time that you know, we're propaganda.

624
00:34:12,085 --> 00:34:16,205
Speaker 2: It's just like my band was, and and I was.

625
00:34:16,285 --> 00:34:18,205
Speaker 2: You know, it was the way I was supporting my

626
00:34:18,285 --> 00:34:21,405
Speaker 2: family at the time through this through selling this music

627
00:34:21,725 --> 00:34:24,565
Speaker 2: because this was before the internet. Remember that people were

628
00:34:24,645 --> 00:34:27,125
Speaker 2: driving in from all over the United States and Canada

629
00:34:27,525 --> 00:34:31,405
Speaker 2: to buy this music from my physical store CDs. You know,

630
00:34:31,565 --> 00:34:35,005
Speaker 2: it was before m P three's, So you know, I

631
00:34:35,605 --> 00:34:39,365
Speaker 2: was really involved and was a major kind of cog

632
00:34:39,605 --> 00:34:46,365
Speaker 2: in the machine of radicalizing young people. And at that

633
00:34:46,445 --> 00:34:48,885
Speaker 2: point in my life, my wife had left me, she

634
00:34:48,925 --> 00:34:53,085
Speaker 2: had taken the kids I had. I had to really

635
00:34:54,045 --> 00:34:56,445
Speaker 2: ask myself, you know what I believed in again and

636
00:34:56,485 --> 00:35:00,445
Speaker 2: who I was, And I don't know what it was,

637
00:35:00,525 --> 00:35:04,085
Speaker 2: but something inside of me made me say it's time

638
00:35:04,205 --> 00:35:07,045
Speaker 2: to lead this movement. And I decided I was going

639
00:35:07,085 --> 00:35:10,605
Speaker 2: to close my store because I eventually i'd pulled the

640
00:35:10,685 --> 00:35:14,485
Speaker 2: racist music from the inventory and it was seventy five

641
00:35:14,525 --> 00:35:16,845
Speaker 2: percent of my revenue, so I couldn't sustain the store.

642
00:35:17,205 --> 00:35:20,245
Speaker 2: And I used that excuse with my comrades at the time,

643
00:35:21,325 --> 00:35:23,765
Speaker 2: you know, my divorce, to say, hey, I need some

644
00:35:23,845 --> 00:35:26,525
Speaker 2: time to work on my family. I need to walk

645
00:35:26,565 --> 00:35:29,085
Speaker 2: away from this. I'm coming back. You know. I'd always

646
00:35:29,085 --> 00:35:30,805
Speaker 2: promised him I would come back, that I was just

647
00:35:30,805 --> 00:35:33,965
Speaker 2: stepping away, that I was pausing to focus on my family.

648
00:35:34,645 --> 00:35:36,885
Speaker 2: But inside I knew I never wanted to go back.

649
00:35:36,925 --> 00:35:38,965
Speaker 2: I wanted to run as fast and as far away

650
00:35:39,005 --> 00:35:41,285
Speaker 2: as I could from the movement. But it was a

651
00:35:41,285 --> 00:35:43,765
Speaker 2: struggle to do that because at that point I didn't

652
00:35:43,805 --> 00:35:46,205
Speaker 2: have my family. I didn't have a job because I

653
00:35:46,285 --> 00:35:50,845
Speaker 2: closed my store, I didn't have this ideology. I didn't

654
00:35:50,885 --> 00:35:53,245
Speaker 2: have the family that I built around me anymore, and

655
00:35:53,285 --> 00:35:56,045
Speaker 2: I didn't know what my identity my community at purpose

656
00:35:56,085 --> 00:35:59,685
Speaker 2: were And now I had additional potholes that I was

657
00:35:59,725 --> 00:36:03,325
Speaker 2: dealing with that I was navigating around. So for five

658
00:36:03,405 --> 00:36:06,085
Speaker 2: years after I left the movement, I had started to

659
00:36:06,685 --> 00:36:10,365
Speaker 2: meet people that were of color, are people who were black,

660
00:36:10,405 --> 00:36:13,725
Speaker 2: people who were Jewish, who were Muslim, and I had

661
00:36:13,765 --> 00:36:17,045
Speaker 2: started to recognize that they were very much like I was,

662
00:36:17,045 --> 00:36:18,965
Speaker 2: that we were very similar in a lot of ways.

663
00:36:19,005 --> 00:36:21,965
Speaker 2: And in fact, I had more respect for some of

664
00:36:22,005 --> 00:36:23,725
Speaker 2: the people that I had met that were outside of

665
00:36:23,765 --> 00:36:26,405
Speaker 2: the movement than I did for the people that were

666
00:36:26,405 --> 00:36:28,685
Speaker 2: in the move So I had started to have these

667
00:36:28,765 --> 00:36:31,325
Speaker 2: very conflicting ideas, and of course I didn't share them

668
00:36:31,325 --> 00:36:33,485
Speaker 2: with anybody. It wasn't, you know, something that I would

669
00:36:33,525 --> 00:36:35,125
Speaker 2: go to my fellow skin edit and say, hey, I

670
00:36:35,165 --> 00:36:37,245
Speaker 2: met this you know, black guy, and we have a

671
00:36:37,245 --> 00:36:38,805
Speaker 2: lot in common and I kind of like it. It

672
00:36:38,885 --> 00:36:42,525
Speaker 2: wasn't something I could talk about. So I kind of

673
00:36:42,645 --> 00:36:48,885
Speaker 2: disappeared from the movement. I ran from it, and and

674
00:36:49,125 --> 00:36:51,925
Speaker 2: I could have easily gone sideways into something other, some

675
00:36:52,045 --> 00:36:56,325
Speaker 2: other toxic, you know, negative movement. But luckily I wanted

676
00:36:56,325 --> 00:36:59,245
Speaker 2: to be a good father, so I focused on being

677
00:36:59,285 --> 00:37:02,925
Speaker 2: with my children every weekend when I had custody of them,

678
00:37:03,765 --> 00:37:06,485
Speaker 2: and it was I was very lucky to have that

679
00:37:06,725 --> 00:37:10,405
Speaker 2: because it allowed me to really, you know, work towards

680
00:37:10,445 --> 00:37:15,565
Speaker 2: love than hate, and you know, by sheer luck, in

681
00:37:15,645 --> 00:37:19,565
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety nine, my life changed. And it was this

682
00:37:19,645 --> 00:37:23,565
Speaker 2: event that caused me to kind of re examine not

683
00:37:23,605 --> 00:37:27,125
Speaker 2: only the world around me, but myself and really come

684
00:37:27,165 --> 00:37:29,885
Speaker 2: to terms with repairing the harm that I had caused.

685
00:37:32,645 --> 00:37:36,005
Speaker 1: In just a moment, Christian tells me how a mounting

686
00:37:36,165 --> 00:37:40,285
Speaker 1: pressure at his brother's funeral attempted to lure him back

687
00:37:40,325 --> 00:37:48,605
Speaker 1: to his previous life. Don't go anywhere. What was the event?

688
00:37:49,485 --> 00:37:53,685
Speaker 2: So in nineteen ninety nine, I had already been out

689
00:37:53,685 --> 00:37:55,725
Speaker 2: of the movement for about four years. I had left

690
00:37:55,725 --> 00:37:59,725
Speaker 2: the movement inteen ninety six, and in nineteen ninety nine,

691
00:37:59,765 --> 00:38:03,325
Speaker 2: after four years of kind of not really knowing who

692
00:38:03,365 --> 00:38:06,965
Speaker 2: I was, I was in a really dark place. And

693
00:38:07,005 --> 00:38:08,485
Speaker 2: one of the few friends that I had, who was

694
00:38:08,525 --> 00:38:11,125
Speaker 2: a girl that was not part of the movement, saw

695
00:38:11,165 --> 00:38:13,805
Speaker 2: that I was struggling with my life, and you know,

696
00:38:13,845 --> 00:38:16,805
Speaker 2: I'd been waking up wishing that I hadn't and she

697
00:38:17,045 --> 00:38:20,405
Speaker 2: recognized that and wanted to help. And she had started

698
00:38:20,445 --> 00:38:23,645
Speaker 2: a new job and encouraged me to go apply at

699
00:38:23,645 --> 00:38:27,165
Speaker 2: this company where she was working, and you know, it

700
00:38:27,205 --> 00:38:29,685
Speaker 2: was a technology company, and I didn't know anything about

701
00:38:29,725 --> 00:38:32,125
Speaker 2: technology at that time. I didn't even own a computer

702
00:38:32,245 --> 00:38:35,325
Speaker 2: at that point in my life. But she encouraged me

703
00:38:35,405 --> 00:38:37,365
Speaker 2: to go apply for a job where she was working.

704
00:38:37,565 --> 00:38:41,885
Speaker 2: And you know, the company was at a small company.

705
00:38:41,885 --> 00:38:45,285
Speaker 2: You may have heard of them called IBM, and of course,

706
00:38:45,445 --> 00:38:48,045
Speaker 2: you know I've never heard of them. Yeah, well, I

707
00:38:48,085 --> 00:38:50,085
Speaker 2: had that same reaction. I kind of laughed, and she

708
00:38:50,165 --> 00:38:53,045
Speaker 2: told me that because I had no experience, I wasn't hireable.

709
00:38:53,645 --> 00:38:55,365
Speaker 2: You know, at that point in my life, I didn't

710
00:38:55,365 --> 00:38:58,005
Speaker 2: have a resume, I didn't have any job experience. You

711
00:38:58,045 --> 00:39:00,445
Speaker 2: know that that would have gotten me a job at IBM.

712
00:39:00,565 --> 00:39:03,325
Speaker 2: But I went in for the interview and it was

713
00:39:03,365 --> 00:39:04,525
Speaker 2: an entry level position.

714
00:39:04,725 --> 00:39:06,045
Speaker 1: Did you cover your tattoos?

715
00:39:06,405 --> 00:39:08,205
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah. I didn't tell them who I was. You know.

716
00:39:08,245 --> 00:39:10,885
Speaker 2: I went in with long sleep shirts and by that

717
00:39:10,925 --> 00:39:13,165
Speaker 2: point my hair was grown out because I had left

718
00:39:13,165 --> 00:39:16,205
Speaker 2: the movement. I'd been out for four years, so I

719
00:39:16,325 --> 00:39:19,645
Speaker 2: looked different and I thought different. But I didn't really

720
00:39:19,685 --> 00:39:24,525
Speaker 2: have any experience whatsoever. And it was an entry level job,

721
00:39:24,685 --> 00:39:28,605
Speaker 2: just setting up computers at corporations when they would replace

722
00:39:28,645 --> 00:39:31,485
Speaker 2: everybody's desktop. So they would order four hundred computers and

723
00:39:31,565 --> 00:39:33,245
Speaker 2: I'd go in and i'd set them up and hook

724
00:39:33,285 --> 00:39:37,005
Speaker 2: them up, and then it was pretty entry level. And

725
00:39:37,085 --> 00:39:39,005
Speaker 2: I talked my way into the job and they offered

726
00:39:39,005 --> 00:39:42,005
Speaker 2: me a job, and I was thrilled because it was

727
00:39:42,045 --> 00:39:44,805
Speaker 2: the first time in my life that I had some

728
00:39:44,965 --> 00:39:48,605
Speaker 2: promise that something was changing for the better after four

729
00:39:48,685 --> 00:39:52,125
Speaker 2: years of really struggling. And I was thrilled until they

730
00:39:52,165 --> 00:39:54,085
Speaker 2: told me exactly where I was going to be going

731
00:39:54,085 --> 00:39:57,285
Speaker 2: to work my first day. It turns out that I

732
00:39:57,405 --> 00:40:00,485
Speaker 2: was going to be for the summer. I was going

733
00:40:00,525 --> 00:40:03,525
Speaker 2: to be stationed at my old high school, the same

734
00:40:03,605 --> 00:40:06,005
Speaker 2: one I had been kicked out of twice, to set

735
00:40:06,045 --> 00:40:09,645
Speaker 2: up their computers and set up their IT system. Suddenly

736
00:40:09,725 --> 00:40:12,765
Speaker 2: I was terrified because, you know, and IBM had no

737
00:40:12,845 --> 00:40:16,205
Speaker 2: idea they you know, just by coincidence, it was my

738
00:40:16,285 --> 00:40:18,485
Speaker 2: old high school that I was going to be working at.

739
00:40:18,645 --> 00:40:21,165
Speaker 1: How long since you'd been at what age did you

740
00:40:21,325 --> 00:40:25,245
Speaker 1: leave that high school? And under what circumstances?

741
00:40:25,525 --> 00:40:28,685
Speaker 2: Well, I had been let out in handcuffs the last

742
00:40:28,725 --> 00:40:32,605
Speaker 2: day of school there, and I was sixteen years old.

743
00:40:33,365 --> 00:40:35,805
Speaker 2: And now you know, in nineteen ninety nine, I was

744
00:40:37,325 --> 00:40:41,245
Speaker 2: twenty six Okay, so it was you know, ten years

745
00:40:41,285 --> 00:40:43,405
Speaker 2: later since I had been there.

746
00:40:43,645 --> 00:40:45,765
Speaker 1: What had you done that had resulted in you being

747
00:40:45,845 --> 00:40:47,005
Speaker 1: let out in handcuffs?

748
00:40:47,005 --> 00:40:50,045
Speaker 2: When you were sixteen, I had gotten in a fistfight

749
00:40:50,125 --> 00:40:54,805
Speaker 2: with the black security guard there. And after a protest

750
00:40:54,845 --> 00:40:57,325
Speaker 2: that I had staged with several other skinheads that I

751
00:40:57,365 --> 00:41:00,405
Speaker 2: had recruited at the school, there was a sit in

752
00:41:00,405 --> 00:41:03,725
Speaker 2: in the cafeteria by the whites. They were trying to

753
00:41:03,725 --> 00:41:06,685
Speaker 2: form a white student union, and I was brought into

754
00:41:06,685 --> 00:41:10,045
Speaker 2: the office by the black security guard to meet with

755
00:41:10,085 --> 00:41:12,045
Speaker 2: the principal. And I had gotten in a fist fight

756
00:41:12,205 --> 00:41:16,605
Speaker 2: with the black security guard. So, as you can imagine, now,

757
00:41:16,645 --> 00:41:19,925
Speaker 2: ten years later, after I'd gotten kicked out of that school,

758
00:41:20,005 --> 00:41:23,125
Speaker 2: led away in handcuffs. On that last day here, I

759
00:41:23,325 --> 00:41:26,205
Speaker 2: was stationed by IBM to go to work there. So

760
00:41:26,645 --> 00:41:28,965
Speaker 2: my first day of work, I was terrified. I knew

761
00:41:29,005 --> 00:41:31,445
Speaker 2: that the minute I walked in that somebody was going

762
00:41:31,485 --> 00:41:34,125
Speaker 2: to recognize me, somebody was going to say, get him

763
00:41:34,125 --> 00:41:35,925
Speaker 2: out of here. You know, he's a Nazi, Get him out,

764
00:41:36,245 --> 00:41:38,325
Speaker 2: because you know, I had caused so much damage at

765
00:41:38,325 --> 00:41:41,365
Speaker 2: that school, and you know, really kind of you know,

766
00:41:41,445 --> 00:41:43,285
Speaker 2: left the mark, a bad mark on that school. But

767
00:41:43,365 --> 00:41:46,965
Speaker 2: I knew that they couldn't forget me, so I was terrified,

768
00:41:47,245 --> 00:41:49,725
Speaker 2: but I decided, you know, I was going to try

769
00:41:49,965 --> 00:41:53,125
Speaker 2: and go to work that day. And of course, within

770
00:41:53,165 --> 00:41:55,365
Speaker 2: the first few minutes of me walking into the school

771
00:41:55,365 --> 00:41:57,965
Speaker 2: and my first day were who did I run into

772
00:41:58,005 --> 00:42:03,525
Speaker 2: but the black security guard. And I didn't know what

773
00:42:03,565 --> 00:42:06,525
Speaker 2: to say to him. And I went up to him,

774
00:42:06,525 --> 00:42:08,325
Speaker 2: and when I introduced.

775
00:42:07,885 --> 00:42:12,325
Speaker 1: Myself, why he didn't recognize Well, he saw me, but.

776
00:42:12,285 --> 00:42:14,925
Speaker 2: He didn't recognize me straight away. It wasn't until I

777
00:42:15,005 --> 00:42:18,045
Speaker 2: introduced myself that he recognized who I was. And when

778
00:42:18,045 --> 00:42:20,485
Speaker 2: I did, he took a step back because he was afraid,

779
00:42:21,525 --> 00:42:23,005
Speaker 2: and I didn't. I didn't know what to say to

780
00:42:23,085 --> 00:42:26,245
Speaker 2: him at that point, except to say that I was

781
00:42:26,285 --> 00:42:30,445
Speaker 2: sorry for what I had done. And he looked me

782
00:42:30,485 --> 00:42:32,245
Speaker 2: in the eyes and he said, I'll never forget this.

783
00:42:32,325 --> 00:42:34,205
Speaker 2: He looked me in the eyes and he said, I'm

784
00:42:34,245 --> 00:42:36,525
Speaker 2: sure you feel sorry for it, and I'm sure it

785
00:42:36,525 --> 00:42:38,125
Speaker 2: makes you feel good to be sorry for it, but

786
00:42:38,125 --> 00:42:39,245
Speaker 2: it doesn't do anything for me.

787
00:42:39,805 --> 00:42:40,645
Speaker 1: Oh.

788
00:42:41,165 --> 00:42:43,685
Speaker 2: But he stuck out his hand and he shook my hand,

789
00:42:44,005 --> 00:42:47,365
Speaker 2: and he listened to me, and after talking to him

790
00:42:47,405 --> 00:42:50,165
Speaker 2: for a while. He said, it wasn't about just being

791
00:42:50,205 --> 00:42:52,445
Speaker 2: sorry for what I had done. I had to repair

792
00:42:52,525 --> 00:42:54,765
Speaker 2: the harm that I had caused. I had to dedicate

793
00:42:54,805 --> 00:42:57,285
Speaker 2: my life to repairing the damage what I had broken.

794
00:42:57,325 --> 00:43:00,365
Speaker 2: I had to fix it. And he put his arms

795
00:43:00,365 --> 00:43:04,845
Speaker 2: around me, and he forgave me. And I'll never forget that, because,

796
00:43:05,725 --> 00:43:08,525
Speaker 2: you know, for the next twenty five years, here we

797
00:43:08,565 --> 00:43:11,005
Speaker 2: are today. He is still my mentor. He's still a

798
00:43:11,005 --> 00:43:14,845
Speaker 2: person that I respect immensely, and I am so grateful

799
00:43:14,845 --> 00:43:17,565
Speaker 2: to him for forgiving me, because he saved my life.

800
00:43:18,445 --> 00:43:23,005
Speaker 2: He taught me what I needed to do to, you know,

801
00:43:23,405 --> 00:43:25,725
Speaker 2: repair the harm that I had caused to get to

802
00:43:25,765 --> 00:43:27,805
Speaker 2: the point where I am today to work. Not only

803
00:43:27,805 --> 00:43:30,285
Speaker 2: can I be forgiven by him, but I can forgive myself.

804
00:43:31,245 --> 00:43:34,765
Speaker 2: And it's because of him. His name is mister John Holmes.

805
00:43:35,245 --> 00:43:38,245
Speaker 2: It's because of him that I think I'm here today,

806
00:43:38,325 --> 00:43:41,165
Speaker 2: because of the work that I've done since leaving that movement.

807
00:43:41,285 --> 00:43:42,805
Speaker 2: Because I didn't know what to do, I didn't know

808
00:43:42,805 --> 00:43:46,165
Speaker 2: who I was. But suddenly I started to very slowly

809
00:43:46,245 --> 00:43:48,405
Speaker 2: figure out that I needed to do the hard work

810
00:43:49,005 --> 00:43:52,605
Speaker 2: of earning my forgiveness. It wasn't just about saying that

811
00:43:52,645 --> 00:43:55,045
Speaker 2: I was sorry or looking back and saying that I

812
00:43:55,125 --> 00:43:57,885
Speaker 2: was wrong. It was about actually proving that I was

813
00:43:57,925 --> 00:44:01,685
Speaker 2: sorry and fixing what I had broken. And still to

814
00:44:01,725 --> 00:44:04,605
Speaker 2: this day, he's somebody that I turned to, you know,

815
00:44:04,605 --> 00:44:08,485
Speaker 2: on a fairly regular basis and respect them mentally.

816
00:44:09,325 --> 00:44:14,445
Speaker 1: Interesting that after these these eight years of you thinking

817
00:44:14,485 --> 00:44:18,605
Speaker 1: that you were brave, but in retrospect, do you realize

818
00:44:18,605 --> 00:44:21,685
Speaker 1: it was cowardice and it was fear? Oh yeah, Do

819
00:44:21,805 --> 00:44:24,885
Speaker 1: you actually had to step into your bravery to go

820
00:44:25,045 --> 00:44:29,085
Speaker 1: back to the school that you were at, to face

821
00:44:29,205 --> 00:44:32,445
Speaker 1: up to the security guard that you had had a fight?

822
00:44:32,525 --> 00:44:35,525
Speaker 2: Weeth, Yeah, it was terror. I don't know if I

823
00:44:35,605 --> 00:44:38,245
Speaker 2: was bravery at that point. I think maybe eventually I

824
00:44:38,325 --> 00:44:40,165
Speaker 2: learned how to be a little bit more courageous, but

825
00:44:40,205 --> 00:44:42,325
Speaker 2: I think at that point I was. I was just

826
00:44:42,365 --> 00:44:44,765
Speaker 2: afraid of being found out. I think I still hadn't

827
00:44:44,765 --> 00:44:47,165
Speaker 2: evolved yet to the point where I knew I needed

828
00:44:47,205 --> 00:44:49,845
Speaker 2: to do work right. I was just I was. I

829
00:44:49,885 --> 00:44:52,565
Speaker 2: was still trying to outrun my path at that point.

830
00:44:53,165 --> 00:44:55,965
Speaker 2: But ultimately I think I did have to embrace, you know,

831
00:44:56,085 --> 00:44:59,445
Speaker 2: courage to admit what I had done, Courage to face

832
00:44:59,485 --> 00:45:02,485
Speaker 2: the people I had hurt en courage to ask them

833
00:45:03,405 --> 00:45:07,445
Speaker 2: for help in allowing me to make good on what

834
00:45:07,525 --> 00:45:11,925
Speaker 2: I had broken eventually, So again, not only am I

835
00:45:11,925 --> 00:45:14,365
Speaker 2: grateful to him, but I'm grateful to the people that

836
00:45:14,405 --> 00:45:15,085
Speaker 2: I had wronged.

837
00:45:15,805 --> 00:45:19,605
Speaker 1: At what point did you realize that you were uniquely

838
00:45:19,765 --> 00:45:28,005
Speaker 1: placed then to embark on helping extricate other people from

839
00:45:28,605 --> 00:45:30,605
Speaker 1: similar movements.

840
00:45:30,725 --> 00:45:34,165
Speaker 2: Yeah, it wasn't for many years until I figured that out.

841
00:45:34,285 --> 00:45:37,245
Speaker 2: So in nineteen ninety nine, it's when I really started

842
00:45:37,285 --> 00:45:40,685
Speaker 2: doing the work on myself and repairing the harm that

843
00:45:40,765 --> 00:45:44,325
Speaker 2: I had caused. And it wasn't really until you know,

844
00:45:44,525 --> 00:45:49,725
Speaker 2: years later, maybe twenty twelve or so, that I had

845
00:45:49,765 --> 00:45:52,085
Speaker 2: people start to reach out to me based on the

846
00:45:52,085 --> 00:45:55,165
Speaker 2: stories that I was telling about myself, and they would say, Hey,

847
00:45:55,925 --> 00:45:58,845
Speaker 2: my story is much like yours, and I don't know

848
00:45:58,885 --> 00:46:01,245
Speaker 2: what to do. I don't know how to repair the

849
00:46:01,285 --> 00:46:04,645
Speaker 2: harm that I caused. I'm you know, I've been married,

850
00:46:04,685 --> 00:46:06,645
Speaker 2: I've got kids. They don't know what I was involved

851
00:46:06,685 --> 00:46:08,565
Speaker 2: in years ago. I don't know how to make good

852
00:46:08,565 --> 00:46:10,685
Speaker 2: on it. What can I do? And I started to

853
00:46:10,685 --> 00:46:12,885
Speaker 2: get emails, I started to get phone calls, I started

854
00:46:12,885 --> 00:46:15,925
Speaker 2: to get social media messages based on you know, interviews

855
00:46:15,925 --> 00:46:18,165
Speaker 2: that I was doing, or a book that I had written,

856
00:46:18,365 --> 00:46:21,885
Speaker 2: or you know, talks that I was giving, were people

857
00:46:21,885 --> 00:46:24,405
Speaker 2: in the audience, people who were reading these stories started

858
00:46:24,445 --> 00:46:26,805
Speaker 2: to recognize that they were a lot like I was.

859
00:46:26,845 --> 00:46:28,765
Speaker 2: They were involved in these hate groups. They were either

860
00:46:29,045 --> 00:46:31,605
Speaker 2: involved and had left and didn't know how to fix

861
00:46:31,685 --> 00:46:33,965
Speaker 2: what they broke, or they were still involved and didn't

862
00:46:33,965 --> 00:46:36,445
Speaker 2: know how to get out. And I started to become

863
00:46:36,485 --> 00:46:40,205
Speaker 2: flooded with requests from people from all over the world

864
00:46:41,045 --> 00:46:43,845
Speaker 2: who were in these hate movements and didn't know how

865
00:46:43,885 --> 00:46:47,205
Speaker 2: to move forward from them, but saw success in my

866
00:46:47,365 --> 00:46:49,725
Speaker 2: story that they wanted to try and replicate, but they

867
00:46:49,765 --> 00:46:52,525
Speaker 2: just didn't know how. So it was a very organic process.

868
00:46:52,525 --> 00:46:55,445
Speaker 2: It wasn't I never had set out on the process

869
00:46:55,445 --> 00:46:59,205
Speaker 2: of trying to help people escape these movements. I was

870
00:46:59,445 --> 00:47:01,725
Speaker 2: just focused on trying to make you know, what I

871
00:47:01,765 --> 00:47:05,365
Speaker 2: had done better, And in the process of that, my

872
00:47:05,445 --> 00:47:09,445
Speaker 2: story resonated with other folks who saw, you know, possibility

873
00:47:09,845 --> 00:47:13,605
Speaker 2: in my story that they that they could maybe replicate themselves.

874
00:47:13,925 --> 00:47:16,725
Speaker 1: He'd also had I think, was it in two thousand

875
00:47:16,805 --> 00:47:23,205
Speaker 1: and four that your younger brother died? Yeah, what happened?

876
00:47:24,245 --> 00:47:26,925
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's you know, it's I'm glad you asked about it.

877
00:47:26,925 --> 00:47:29,525
Speaker 2: It's not something that I really ever talked about. It

878
00:47:29,565 --> 00:47:32,325
Speaker 2: doesn't really come up most times. But I'm happy to

879
00:47:32,365 --> 00:47:34,725
Speaker 2: talk about it because it was a really kind of

880
00:47:34,805 --> 00:47:36,805
Speaker 2: powerful life changing moment for me.

881
00:47:37,045 --> 00:47:37,405
Speaker 1: Uh huh.

882
00:47:37,845 --> 00:47:40,045
Speaker 2: So, you know, I was ten years older than my brother,

883
00:47:40,085 --> 00:47:42,525
Speaker 2: and at fourteen years old when he was four, I

884
00:47:42,565 --> 00:47:44,645
Speaker 2: had kind of lost touch with him because I was

885
00:47:45,045 --> 00:47:48,245
Speaker 2: now involved with a new family with this movement, so

886
00:47:48,325 --> 00:47:51,485
Speaker 2: I had, you know, in essence, abandoned him, much like

887
00:47:51,525 --> 00:47:55,005
Speaker 2: I felt like my parents had abandoned me, and he

888
00:47:55,125 --> 00:48:00,045
Speaker 2: grew to resent me much like I resented my parents. So,

889
00:48:00,365 --> 00:48:01,805
Speaker 2: you know, when I had left the movement, I had

890
00:48:01,805 --> 00:48:04,365
Speaker 2: tried to reconnect with my brother, who was now a

891
00:48:04,405 --> 00:48:08,845
Speaker 2: teenager himself, and you know, was struggling with his own issues,

892
00:48:08,965 --> 00:48:12,245
Speaker 2: and he didn't want anything to do with me at

893
00:48:12,245 --> 00:48:14,965
Speaker 2: that point. So for many years after I had left

894
00:48:14,965 --> 00:48:18,805
Speaker 2: the move when I really tried to repair the relationship

895
00:48:18,845 --> 00:48:21,605
Speaker 2: that I had lost with my brother, and he really

896
00:48:21,645 --> 00:48:25,205
Speaker 2: didn't want very much to do with me. And then

897
00:48:25,645 --> 00:48:29,725
Speaker 2: one day, just a month before his twenty first birthday,

898
00:48:29,965 --> 00:48:32,285
Speaker 2: he was in a car with several of his friends,

899
00:48:33,845 --> 00:48:37,125
Speaker 2: much like you know, my radicalization. He was in a

900
00:48:37,165 --> 00:48:40,125
Speaker 2: car with his friends trying to buy pot and a

901
00:48:40,165 --> 00:48:43,245
Speaker 2: neighborhood that you know, was unfriendly to people like him,

902
00:48:43,525 --> 00:48:46,885
Speaker 2: and he was shot and he was killed. And I

903
00:48:46,965 --> 00:48:49,645
Speaker 2: never was able to reconcile with my brother. And for

904
00:48:49,725 --> 00:48:53,725
Speaker 2: many years after he died, I blamed myself for not

905
00:48:53,805 --> 00:48:56,645
Speaker 2: being there for him, for you know, for you know,

906
00:48:56,685 --> 00:48:59,285
Speaker 2: setting a bad example for him that maybe he felt

907
00:48:59,325 --> 00:49:04,525
Speaker 2: he needed to somehow follow. And I remember at his funeral,

908
00:49:05,685 --> 00:49:09,365
Speaker 2: it was it was heartbreaking and mind dwelling to me

909
00:49:09,525 --> 00:49:11,765
Speaker 2: because I had been out of the movement now for

910
00:49:11,845 --> 00:49:14,445
Speaker 2: several years. But at his funeral and he was killed

911
00:49:14,445 --> 00:49:18,525
Speaker 2: by a black gang member. At his funeral, I had

912
00:49:18,565 --> 00:49:21,365
Speaker 2: friends and family members come up to me and expect

913
00:49:21,525 --> 00:49:24,645
Speaker 2: me to do something against this person, this black man

914
00:49:25,165 --> 00:49:28,045
Speaker 2: who had killed my brother. And I have to tell you, Kate,

915
00:49:28,125 --> 00:49:30,645
Speaker 2: it was the furthest thing from my mind at that point.

916
00:49:30,645 --> 00:49:33,085
Speaker 2: At that point, you know, all I was feeling was

917
00:49:33,165 --> 00:49:35,285
Speaker 2: that I had missed my brother, and that I had

918
00:49:35,485 --> 00:49:38,245
Speaker 2: been responsive, that I was the one who was responsible

919
00:49:38,285 --> 00:49:41,125
Speaker 2: for his death, not anybody else. I wasn't, you know,

920
00:49:41,205 --> 00:49:44,165
Speaker 2: I wasn't interested in blaming anybody, especially because of the

921
00:49:44,165 --> 00:49:47,205
Speaker 2: color of their skin when I knew it was probably

922
00:49:47,205 --> 00:49:49,325
Speaker 2: the same type of ignorance that I was involved in

923
00:49:49,405 --> 00:49:52,045
Speaker 2: that that took his life. And at that point, I

924
00:49:52,085 --> 00:49:54,125
Speaker 2: just wanted my brother back. I didn't, you know, I

925
00:49:54,165 --> 00:49:58,765
Speaker 2: didn't want revenge. And people had come out of the

926
00:49:58,765 --> 00:50:02,685
Speaker 2: woodwork to assume and ask for my help for revenge,

927
00:50:03,325 --> 00:50:05,525
Speaker 2: people that I never expected, people who were not part

928
00:50:05,565 --> 00:50:08,645
Speaker 2: of the movement, people who were family members, And it

929
00:50:08,685 --> 00:50:12,605
Speaker 2: was heartbreaking to me because especially at them point, you know,

930
00:50:12,685 --> 00:50:16,605
Speaker 2: I was heartbroken over my brother and I didn't really

931
00:50:16,685 --> 00:50:18,045
Speaker 2: need more heartbreak at that point.

932
00:50:18,205 --> 00:50:20,525
Speaker 1: How are your parents? How are your parents? Then?

933
00:50:20,765 --> 00:50:24,205
Speaker 2: Oh? It destroyed them. You know. I think I think

934
00:50:24,205 --> 00:50:27,845
Speaker 2: my brother's death, more than anything else, you know, has

935
00:50:28,285 --> 00:50:31,205
Speaker 2: broken them. I don't think that they've ever really recovered

936
00:50:31,245 --> 00:50:35,085
Speaker 2: from it. You know, they're they're good people, they're you know,

937
00:50:35,125 --> 00:50:38,485
Speaker 2: they're living their lives. But I think something was missing,

938
00:50:39,525 --> 00:50:42,205
Speaker 2: and I think, you know, especially then, it was something

939
00:50:42,245 --> 00:50:44,845
Speaker 2: that they couldn't wrap their heads around, and even now,

940
00:50:46,205 --> 00:50:50,325
Speaker 2: you know, gosh, twenty years later, it's still not something

941
00:50:50,365 --> 00:50:52,565
Speaker 2: that they've been able to find peace with.

942
00:50:55,765 --> 00:50:58,965
Speaker 1: That wasn't the end of my conversation with Christian. We

943
00:50:59,125 --> 00:51:01,725
Speaker 1: had so much more to talk about, so there is

944
00:51:01,765 --> 00:51:06,525
Speaker 1: a part. Two years after Christian left the organization, his

945
00:51:06,685 --> 00:51:10,365
Speaker 1: words and propaganda came back to haunt him when they

946
00:51:10,525 --> 00:51:14,245
Speaker 1: surfaced as part of the inspiration for one of the

947
00:51:14,245 --> 00:51:18,885
Speaker 1: deadliest and cruelest hate crimes in recent memory, the Charleston

948
00:51:18,925 --> 00:51:24,285
Speaker 1: massacre in the church, which claimed nine innocent lives. You

949
00:51:24,325 --> 00:51:26,885
Speaker 1: can follow the link to part two in the show notes.

950
00:51:28,245 --> 00:51:31,605
Speaker 1: The executive producer of No Filter is Naima Brown and

951
00:51:31,725 --> 00:51:35,405
Speaker 1: the senior producer is Grace Rufray. Audio production is by

952
00:51:35,485 --> 00:51:39,565
Speaker 1: Jacob Brown and I'm your host, Kate lane Brook. I'll

953
00:51:39,565 --> 00:51:41,365
Speaker 1: be back in your years next week.