1 00:00:10,614 --> 00:00:15,294 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges 2 00:00:15,334 --> 00:00:18,174 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 3 00:00:18,214 --> 00:00:19,054 Speaker 1: is recorded on. 4 00:00:28,694 --> 00:00:28,854 Speaker 2: Hi. 5 00:00:29,014 --> 00:00:32,094 Speaker 1: I'm Claire Murphy. This is Mumma MIA's daily news podcast, 6 00:00:32,134 --> 00:00:34,734 Speaker 1: The Quickie. And in case you're wondering why I'm back 7 00:00:34,734 --> 00:00:37,814 Speaker 1: here this afternoon in place of your evening headlines, it's 8 00:00:37,854 --> 00:00:40,894 Speaker 1: because the deputy editor of Foreign Policy magazine and Mamma 9 00:00:40,934 --> 00:00:44,894 Speaker 1: MIA's US election correspondent, Amelia Lester, and I have today 10 00:00:45,014 --> 00:00:48,374 Speaker 1: sat through the more than scheduled ninety minute presidential debate 11 00:00:48,414 --> 00:00:51,934 Speaker 1: between former President Donald Trump and Vice President Kamala Harris. 12 00:00:52,254 --> 00:00:53,934 Speaker 1: We're going to talk through what went down when these 13 00:00:53,974 --> 00:00:56,574 Speaker 1: two met for the very first time and whether this 14 00:00:56,694 --> 00:00:59,694 Speaker 1: moment will steer voters to either the Democrats or the 15 00:00:59,734 --> 00:01:03,894 Speaker 1: Republicans come November. Amelia, thank you so much for joining us. 16 00:01:03,934 --> 00:01:07,694 Speaker 1: What's your first take on this debate? Immediately after it's over? 17 00:01:07,734 --> 00:01:09,934 Speaker 1: What stood out for you over everything that was covered. 18 00:01:10,214 --> 00:01:13,654 Speaker 3: I think it was how extreme Donald Trump came across. 19 00:01:13,654 --> 00:01:15,614 Speaker 3: And that sounds like a funny thing to say, because 20 00:01:15,654 --> 00:01:18,654 Speaker 3: he is known as a fairly extreme guy. But the 21 00:01:18,694 --> 00:01:21,974 Speaker 3: presidential debate is normally when candidates who have had to 22 00:01:22,014 --> 00:01:25,374 Speaker 3: sort of prove themselves to their party base to get nominated, 23 00:01:25,694 --> 00:01:28,254 Speaker 3: tacked to the center and try and appeal to swing 24 00:01:28,374 --> 00:01:30,574 Speaker 3: voters who were in the middle and don't yet know 25 00:01:30,614 --> 00:01:31,734 Speaker 3: which way they're going to swing. 26 00:01:32,174 --> 00:01:33,334 Speaker 2: He didn't do that at all. 27 00:01:33,654 --> 00:01:36,214 Speaker 3: He really doubled down on a lot of extreme positions 28 00:01:36,254 --> 00:01:39,094 Speaker 3: that might appeal to his base, but which probably have 29 00:01:39,414 --> 00:01:42,534 Speaker 3: fairly minimal appeal to the swing voters that he's supposedly 30 00:01:42,574 --> 00:01:43,454 Speaker 3: trying to win over. 31 00:01:44,054 --> 00:01:45,974 Speaker 1: A lot of the feedback in the aftermath has been 32 00:01:45,974 --> 00:01:49,134 Speaker 1: that Kamala Harris had a strategy to bate Donald Trump 33 00:01:49,294 --> 00:01:52,054 Speaker 1: and allow him to just respond in true Trump form, 34 00:01:52,094 --> 00:01:55,054 Speaker 1: And that does seem to be how that's unfolded, because 35 00:01:55,094 --> 00:01:57,014 Speaker 1: we didn't get a lot of policy out of Donald Trump, 36 00:01:57,254 --> 00:01:58,854 Speaker 1: and in fact, when he was asked about policy, he 37 00:01:58,894 --> 00:02:00,854 Speaker 1: kind of said he didn't have it, but he would 38 00:02:00,934 --> 00:02:03,094 Speaker 1: have it at some stage if he were to become president. 39 00:02:03,214 --> 00:02:06,214 Speaker 1: So do you think that strategy has worked for Kamala Harris. 40 00:02:06,694 --> 00:02:10,214 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've heard before that Kamala's husband, Dug M. Hoffers, 41 00:02:10,214 --> 00:02:13,614 Speaker 3: said that even in sort of you know, marital discussions 42 00:02:13,654 --> 00:02:16,894 Speaker 3: slash debates at home, she will lay traps for him 43 00:02:16,974 --> 00:02:19,654 Speaker 3: that he'll walk into And I was watching the debate 44 00:02:19,694 --> 00:02:22,094 Speaker 3: with that in mind, and I kept noticing the traps. 45 00:02:22,214 --> 00:02:24,534 Speaker 3: The first of the traps was when she talked about 46 00:02:25,094 --> 00:02:28,494 Speaker 3: how people get bored at his rallies. Another trap was 47 00:02:28,534 --> 00:02:31,934 Speaker 3: when she said he's been bankrupt six times. Another trap, 48 00:02:31,934 --> 00:02:35,334 Speaker 3: which was particularly anger inducing to him was when she 49 00:02:35,414 --> 00:02:39,094 Speaker 3: talked about how, adjusted for today's figures and inflation, he 50 00:02:39,254 --> 00:02:42,054 Speaker 3: was gifted four hundred million dollars by his father when 51 00:02:42,054 --> 00:02:43,214 Speaker 3: he was starting his career. 52 00:02:43,574 --> 00:02:45,254 Speaker 2: At each one of those points. 53 00:02:44,854 --> 00:02:48,334 Speaker 3: At these sort of arguably sort of low low points 54 00:02:48,374 --> 00:02:51,734 Speaker 3: where she's attacking the man rather than the policies, I 55 00:02:51,774 --> 00:02:54,454 Speaker 3: think that you really saw him spin out as a result. 56 00:02:55,254 --> 00:02:58,414 Speaker 1: Let's talk about some of those moments where he's definitely 57 00:02:58,454 --> 00:03:01,614 Speaker 1: trump I mean gone off script, because we know from 58 00:03:01,654 --> 00:03:04,934 Speaker 1: all reports that he has actually prepared for this debate 59 00:03:04,974 --> 00:03:07,214 Speaker 1: more than he has any others that have gone before. 60 00:03:07,334 --> 00:03:10,614 Speaker 1: He's been practicing with his advisors, and yet it seems 61 00:03:10,614 --> 00:03:13,214 Speaker 1: that maybe he hasn't followed the plan that they have 62 00:03:13,334 --> 00:03:16,654 Speaker 1: had in place for him. So, for example, the first 63 00:03:16,694 --> 00:03:18,614 Speaker 1: time it seemed to really go off the rails is 64 00:03:18,614 --> 00:03:23,014 Speaker 1: when the abortion topic came up for discussion and this 65 00:03:23,054 --> 00:03:26,574 Speaker 1: is what Trump said, And this is something that conservatives 66 00:03:26,614 --> 00:03:28,814 Speaker 1: will often bring up in the abortion debate. 67 00:03:29,294 --> 00:03:32,894 Speaker 4: They have abortion in the ninth month. They even have 68 00:03:33,014 --> 00:03:35,174 Speaker 4: and you can look at the governor of West Virginia, 69 00:03:35,254 --> 00:03:38,414 Speaker 4: the previous governor of West Virginia. He said, the baby 70 00:03:38,454 --> 00:03:40,774 Speaker 4: will be born and we will decide what to do 71 00:03:40,854 --> 00:03:43,054 Speaker 4: with the baby. In other words, we'll execute the baby. 72 00:03:43,254 --> 00:03:46,774 Speaker 4: But her vice presidential pick says abortion in the ninth 73 00:03:46,814 --> 00:03:51,894 Speaker 4: month is absolutely fine. He also says execution after birth, 74 00:03:51,894 --> 00:03:54,694 Speaker 4: it's an execution, no longer abortion because the baby is 75 00:03:54,734 --> 00:03:57,934 Speaker 4: born is okay. And that's not okay with me. 76 00:03:58,374 --> 00:04:01,134 Speaker 1: So this is really interesting because one of the moderators, 77 00:04:01,134 --> 00:04:05,494 Speaker 1: Lindsay Davis, actually fact checked Trump live during this debate. 78 00:04:05,534 --> 00:04:06,374 Speaker 1: This is what she said. 79 00:04:06,454 --> 00:04:08,494 Speaker 5: There is no state in this country where it is 80 00:04:08,574 --> 00:04:10,574 Speaker 5: legal to kill a baby after it's born. 81 00:04:10,934 --> 00:04:12,734 Speaker 1: Man of Vice president, want to get your response to 82 00:04:12,894 --> 00:04:15,734 Speaker 1: President Trump. And this is something that a lot of 83 00:04:15,734 --> 00:04:18,854 Speaker 1: conservatives have come back and said was really uncalled for. 84 00:04:18,894 --> 00:04:22,494 Speaker 1: I know Ben Shapiro, who's a conservative podcaster, said ABC's 85 00:04:22,534 --> 00:04:26,014 Speaker 1: moderators are a disgrace to their profession. Megan Kelly, many 86 00:04:26,014 --> 00:04:28,814 Speaker 1: people might know conservative podcasters, said, oh, my god, more 87 00:04:28,854 --> 00:04:31,414 Speaker 1: fact checking from ABC. This is the worst anchor pylon 88 00:04:31,494 --> 00:04:36,814 Speaker 1: I've ever seen. But realistically, that statement about abortion that 89 00:04:36,854 --> 00:04:38,494 Speaker 1: we hear conservatives bring up all the time, that it 90 00:04:38,534 --> 00:04:40,974 Speaker 1: will lead to late term abortions and even killing babies 91 00:04:41,014 --> 00:04:42,974 Speaker 1: after they're born, which has been refuted over and over 92 00:04:43,014 --> 00:04:45,534 Speaker 1: and over. If they say it loud enough and long enough, 93 00:04:45,574 --> 00:04:48,654 Speaker 1: DoD Trump supporters truly believe it even though it's not true. 94 00:04:49,054 --> 00:04:52,094 Speaker 3: I'm sure Trump supporters believe it because they're in an 95 00:04:52,094 --> 00:04:55,134 Speaker 3: echo chamber of their own making. But he was not 96 00:04:55,214 --> 00:04:57,854 Speaker 3: meant to be talking to his supporters here. He was 97 00:04:57,934 --> 00:05:00,214 Speaker 3: meant to be talking to the people who haven't yet 98 00:05:00,214 --> 00:05:03,334 Speaker 3: decided how they're going to vote, and consistently, as Trump 99 00:05:03,454 --> 00:05:07,494 Speaker 3: himself pointed out, Kansas and other conservative state have held 100 00:05:07,534 --> 00:05:10,894 Speaker 3: referendums on abortion rights and consists instantly, people have voted 101 00:05:10,934 --> 00:05:14,414 Speaker 3: in a majority to preserve abortion rights and a woman's 102 00:05:14,494 --> 00:05:15,254 Speaker 3: right to choose. 103 00:05:15,294 --> 00:05:17,374 Speaker 2: So it was really odd to see. 104 00:05:17,294 --> 00:05:20,454 Speaker 3: Him double down on this very extreme position that is 105 00:05:20,494 --> 00:05:23,374 Speaker 3: not supported by a majority of Americans. He did that 106 00:05:23,494 --> 00:05:25,174 Speaker 3: time and time again in a way that was really 107 00:05:25,254 --> 00:05:27,334 Speaker 3: surprising to me, and I bet very unnerving for the 108 00:05:27,374 --> 00:05:30,534 Speaker 3: people prepping him for the debate. Another time that that 109 00:05:30,694 --> 00:05:33,574 Speaker 3: happened was when he talked about Ukraine. That part really 110 00:05:33,654 --> 00:05:36,774 Speaker 3: shocked me. He wouldn't say that he wanted Ukraine to 111 00:05:36,854 --> 00:05:40,374 Speaker 3: win the war which Russia started by invading them. I mean, 112 00:05:40,374 --> 00:05:44,414 Speaker 3: that's a really fringe position in American foreign policy that 113 00:05:44,534 --> 00:05:47,494 Speaker 3: I wouldn't even have thought most Republicans would agree with. 114 00:05:47,614 --> 00:05:50,174 Speaker 3: So he was really finding these fringe positions. 115 00:05:50,734 --> 00:05:53,214 Speaker 1: It was also interesting that when he was asked about 116 00:05:53,334 --> 00:05:56,774 Speaker 1: ending wars, for example, the one currently happening in Gaza, 117 00:05:56,894 --> 00:05:59,694 Speaker 1: or any other world issues, that he said that none 118 00:05:59,734 --> 00:06:02,294 Speaker 1: of these wars would have happened had he been president, 119 00:06:02,334 --> 00:06:04,334 Speaker 1: So it didn't actually give an answer as to what 120 00:06:04,374 --> 00:06:07,734 Speaker 1: he would do now. He continued to sort of brag 121 00:06:07,814 --> 00:06:10,974 Speaker 1: that it wouldn't have happened under his watch, and. 122 00:06:10,854 --> 00:06:13,774 Speaker 3: In fact bragg about how he knows Putin really well 123 00:06:13,814 --> 00:06:15,854 Speaker 3: and he and Putin are close. I thought that was 124 00:06:15,894 --> 00:06:19,254 Speaker 3: actually a very strong moment for Harris was when she 125 00:06:19,414 --> 00:06:21,694 Speaker 3: was able to draw on the experience that she's had 126 00:06:21,734 --> 00:06:24,414 Speaker 3: as vice president traveling the world and talking to world leaders, 127 00:06:24,934 --> 00:06:28,454 Speaker 3: and she said, look, if you were in charge, Putin 128 00:06:28,454 --> 00:06:29,534 Speaker 3: would be sitting in Kiev. 129 00:06:29,614 --> 00:06:32,494 Speaker 2: Now. I don't know to what extent the average American. 130 00:06:32,214 --> 00:06:35,254 Speaker 3: Voter necessarily cares about whether Putin will be sitting in Kiev. 131 00:06:35,294 --> 00:06:38,254 Speaker 3: But I think overall, what it did was conveying impression 132 00:06:38,254 --> 00:06:40,454 Speaker 3: that she is in the weeds on these foreign policy 133 00:06:40,494 --> 00:06:41,174 Speaker 3: issues in a. 134 00:06:41,094 --> 00:06:41,934 Speaker 2: Way that he is not. 135 00:06:42,854 --> 00:06:44,534 Speaker 1: A moment I think that stood out for quite a 136 00:06:44,614 --> 00:06:48,734 Speaker 1: few of us was when Donald Trump repeated claims that 137 00:06:48,894 --> 00:06:53,214 Speaker 1: immigrants in Ohio are responsible for eating people's pets, and 138 00:06:53,214 --> 00:06:55,374 Speaker 1: he claimed they're eating people's dogs and cats. Now, this 139 00:06:55,494 --> 00:06:57,654 Speaker 1: is a claim I wasn't aware of this until watching 140 00:06:57,654 --> 00:06:59,974 Speaker 1: this debate, but it's a claim that started on social 141 00:07:00,014 --> 00:07:02,734 Speaker 1: media and has since been amplified by Trump's campaign and 142 00:07:02,734 --> 00:07:06,054 Speaker 1: other Republican figures. And the fact that he said that 143 00:07:06,094 --> 00:07:08,454 Speaker 1: it all is quite jarring. But it also was in 144 00:07:08,494 --> 00:07:11,694 Speaker 1: response to, as you mentioned earlier, Harris talking about people 145 00:07:11,774 --> 00:07:14,334 Speaker 1: leaving Trump rallies due to exhaustion and boredom. So it's 146 00:07:14,334 --> 00:07:17,774 Speaker 1: not even related to what he's responding to. Listen to 147 00:07:17,814 --> 00:07:18,654 Speaker 1: what he actually says. 148 00:07:18,934 --> 00:07:21,454 Speaker 4: What they have done to our country by allowing these 149 00:07:21,574 --> 00:07:24,694 Speaker 4: millions and millions of people to come into our country, 150 00:07:24,894 --> 00:07:27,574 Speaker 4: and look at what's happening to the towns all over 151 00:07:27,854 --> 00:07:29,654 Speaker 4: the United States, and a lot of towns don't want 152 00:07:29,654 --> 00:07:31,774 Speaker 4: to talk. It's not going to be Aurora or Springfield. 153 00:07:32,054 --> 00:07:33,734 Speaker 4: A lot of towns don't want to talk about it 154 00:07:33,774 --> 00:07:38,094 Speaker 4: because they're so embarrassed by it. In Springfield, they're eating 155 00:07:38,134 --> 00:07:41,534 Speaker 4: the dogs the people that came in, they're eating the cats, 156 00:07:41,734 --> 00:07:46,254 Speaker 4: they're eating they're eating the pets of the people that 157 00:07:46,454 --> 00:07:49,814 Speaker 4: live there. And this is what's happening in our country, 158 00:07:50,054 --> 00:07:50,894 Speaker 4: and it's a shame. 159 00:07:51,494 --> 00:07:55,694 Speaker 1: This feels really wild. How did you respond when you 160 00:07:55,894 --> 00:07:56,574 Speaker 1: heard him say that? 161 00:07:57,134 --> 00:07:57,174 Speaker 2: Me? 162 00:07:57,294 --> 00:08:01,294 Speaker 3: You really reminded me of how polarized even the news 163 00:08:01,374 --> 00:08:04,054 Speaker 3: media has become. Because you know, I work in news. 164 00:08:04,054 --> 00:08:07,094 Speaker 3: I'm a fairly voracious consumer of news. I had not 165 00:08:07,374 --> 00:08:10,294 Speaker 3: heard this story, so I didn't actually need it refuted 166 00:08:10,374 --> 00:08:11,334 Speaker 3: because they hadn't. 167 00:08:11,094 --> 00:08:11,734 Speaker 2: Even heard it. 168 00:08:11,774 --> 00:08:13,374 Speaker 3: And I guess, as you say, this is something that 169 00:08:13,414 --> 00:08:17,494 Speaker 3: has been circulating on social media and perhaps on very 170 00:08:17,534 --> 00:08:20,054 Speaker 3: extreme news sites like Newsmax. 171 00:08:20,214 --> 00:08:22,294 Speaker 2: I think this is probably too extreme even for Fox 172 00:08:22,334 --> 00:08:22,894 Speaker 2: at this point. 173 00:08:22,974 --> 00:08:26,014 Speaker 3: So, having not heard the rumor before, I just had 174 00:08:26,054 --> 00:08:27,974 Speaker 3: to assume that it came from the part of his 175 00:08:28,094 --> 00:08:31,974 Speaker 3: brain that felt particularly deranged from this accusation that people 176 00:08:32,094 --> 00:08:35,214 Speaker 3: found his rallies boring. I think that really scrambled his 177 00:08:35,214 --> 00:08:37,094 Speaker 3: brain in a way that you could see almost visually, 178 00:08:37,654 --> 00:08:40,574 Speaker 3: and that's why he kind of went for dramatically off 179 00:08:40,694 --> 00:08:41,654 Speaker 3: rails in that moment. 180 00:08:42,134 --> 00:08:44,334 Speaker 1: Two other things that really stood out for me is 181 00:08:45,214 --> 00:08:48,214 Speaker 1: he really fled out, refused to acknowledge any regret for 182 00:08:48,254 --> 00:08:51,734 Speaker 1: his role in the January sixth capital attack, and in fact, 183 00:08:51,774 --> 00:08:55,494 Speaker 1: he seemed to defend the people who had gone there. 184 00:08:55,494 --> 00:08:58,734 Speaker 1: In one lady who was sadly shot by a police officer, 185 00:08:58,974 --> 00:09:01,614 Speaker 1: he defended her, and he actually spoke poorly of the 186 00:09:01,614 --> 00:09:04,414 Speaker 1: police officer who pulled the trigger. How do you take that? 187 00:09:04,774 --> 00:09:07,294 Speaker 1: And how will voters take that when they see him 188 00:09:07,294 --> 00:09:09,214 Speaker 1: refusing to acknowledge any regret in that moment. 189 00:09:09,854 --> 00:09:11,814 Speaker 2: This is really fringed staff. 190 00:09:11,934 --> 00:09:16,014 Speaker 3: So Ashley Babbitt, who we're talking about here, who died 191 00:09:16,094 --> 00:09:16,974 Speaker 3: as a result. 192 00:09:16,694 --> 00:09:17,974 Speaker 2: Of gunshot, was that day. 193 00:09:18,614 --> 00:09:21,454 Speaker 3: She has become a kind of martyr of the extreme 194 00:09:21,574 --> 00:09:24,974 Speaker 3: right in America and a sort of folk hero, But 195 00:09:25,094 --> 00:09:29,174 Speaker 3: she's certainly not someone that a mainstream American would feel 196 00:09:29,174 --> 00:09:32,854 Speaker 3: any particular sympathy for. January sixth is generally regarded as 197 00:09:32,894 --> 00:09:36,214 Speaker 3: an undemocratic moment, a shameful moment for the country, not 198 00:09:36,374 --> 00:09:38,614 Speaker 3: least because the people who were storming the capitol that 199 00:09:38,694 --> 00:09:42,254 Speaker 3: day wanted to discount the votes of ordinary Americans. 200 00:09:42,254 --> 00:09:43,814 Speaker 2: That's not a very popular position. 201 00:09:43,974 --> 00:09:47,854 Speaker 3: So I was shocked by how he refused to distance 202 00:09:47,934 --> 00:09:51,054 Speaker 3: himself from those people and in fact even celebrated them, 203 00:09:51,334 --> 00:09:54,934 Speaker 3: denigrating a police officer in the process. The police are 204 00:09:54,934 --> 00:09:58,934 Speaker 3: really a stalwart of sort of like old fashioned conservative 205 00:09:59,014 --> 00:10:02,814 Speaker 3: values in America, and multiple police officers died after January 206 00:10:02,894 --> 00:10:05,214 Speaker 3: sixth as a result of what happened that day, So 207 00:10:05,534 --> 00:10:06,894 Speaker 3: I was pretty shocked by it. 208 00:10:07,414 --> 00:10:10,014 Speaker 1: Also, as an extension of that, he continue need to 209 00:10:10,734 --> 00:10:14,614 Speaker 1: falsely claim that he won that election in twenty twenty. 210 00:10:14,894 --> 00:10:16,974 Speaker 1: Is it surprising that he's still sticking to his guns 211 00:10:17,014 --> 00:10:19,134 Speaker 1: on this, that maybe it's something he should really let go. 212 00:10:19,614 --> 00:10:22,174 Speaker 3: Well, that's another moment where he went completely off script, 213 00:10:22,254 --> 00:10:26,414 Speaker 3: because David Miller, the debate moderator, quoted a number of 214 00:10:26,454 --> 00:10:29,494 Speaker 3: times recently where Trump has softened his stance on that 215 00:10:29,614 --> 00:10:33,374 Speaker 3: and has essentially conceded that he lost in twenty twenty. 216 00:10:33,454 --> 00:10:35,614 Speaker 5: In the past couple of weeks leading up to this debate, 217 00:10:36,014 --> 00:10:38,534 Speaker 5: you have said quote you lost by a whisker, that 218 00:10:38,574 --> 00:10:40,734 Speaker 5: you quote didn't quite make it that you came up 219 00:10:40,734 --> 00:10:43,334 Speaker 5: a little bit short. I argue that are you now 220 00:10:43,374 --> 00:10:44,974 Speaker 5: acknowledging that you lost. 221 00:10:44,734 --> 00:10:45,534 Speaker 1: In twenty twenty? 222 00:10:45,654 --> 00:10:46,294 Speaker 2: Acknowledged it? 223 00:10:46,374 --> 00:10:49,054 Speaker 4: Or I said that sarcastically. You know that it was said, 224 00:10:49,054 --> 00:10:51,894 Speaker 4: oh we lost by a whisker. That was said sarcastically. 225 00:10:51,974 --> 00:10:55,094 Speaker 3: You know he has backtracked in recent times, but I 226 00:10:55,134 --> 00:10:57,654 Speaker 3: guess he just decided to forego all of that and 227 00:10:57,734 --> 00:11:00,774 Speaker 3: double down on this position that he in fact won 228 00:11:00,814 --> 00:11:03,814 Speaker 3: the election. Again, that's not a popular position. People don't 229 00:11:03,894 --> 00:11:05,814 Speaker 3: like to hear that their votes didn't count or that 230 00:11:05,894 --> 00:11:09,134 Speaker 3: he's not listening to the American people. I just have 231 00:11:09,214 --> 00:11:11,534 Speaker 3: to as there was no way that that was pre planned. 232 00:11:11,974 --> 00:11:13,734 Speaker 1: Well, can we shift tacked a little? We focused quite 233 00:11:13,734 --> 00:11:16,734 Speaker 1: a bit on Trump already because he sort of put 234 00:11:16,734 --> 00:11:18,774 Speaker 1: on the best show. I guess if you're watching this 235 00:11:18,934 --> 00:11:22,814 Speaker 1: like a reality TV event, let's look at Kamala's response, 236 00:11:22,934 --> 00:11:26,574 Speaker 1: because she seemed to really target the individual American she 237 00:11:26,654 --> 00:11:28,934 Speaker 1: was talking to you. She used that word quite a lot, 238 00:11:28,974 --> 00:11:31,494 Speaker 1: and she used the word aspirational, and she talked about 239 00:11:31,494 --> 00:11:33,814 Speaker 1: how she was going to make American lives better. But 240 00:11:33,894 --> 00:11:35,974 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, she did go the man to quite 241 00:11:36,014 --> 00:11:38,134 Speaker 1: a few times. To get to Trump. She called him 242 00:11:38,134 --> 00:11:40,854 Speaker 1: a liar. But it's her reactions I think that have 243 00:11:40,934 --> 00:11:43,334 Speaker 1: stood out and especially have become very mean worthy on 244 00:11:43,374 --> 00:11:46,934 Speaker 1: social media. Her smirking, her laughing, and you can fact 245 00:11:47,054 --> 00:11:49,294 Speaker 1: hear her audibly laughing even though her mic is off 246 00:11:49,494 --> 00:11:53,934 Speaker 1: through some of Trump's responses. Do you think that was 247 00:11:53,974 --> 00:11:57,894 Speaker 1: a good move by her or she potentially alienating those 248 00:11:57,974 --> 00:12:01,094 Speaker 1: people who might be still considering Trump but were looking 249 00:12:01,094 --> 00:12:01,974 Speaker 1: at her for guidance. 250 00:12:02,534 --> 00:12:02,734 Speaker 2: Yeah. 251 00:12:02,774 --> 00:12:05,454 Speaker 3: So clearly both candidates would have done a lot of 252 00:12:05,534 --> 00:12:08,654 Speaker 3: training in how they look on the so called split screen. 253 00:12:08,774 --> 00:12:10,974 Speaker 3: So when the other Canada is talking, what is their 254 00:12:11,014 --> 00:12:13,814 Speaker 3: face during what is their body language doing? Not least 255 00:12:13,854 --> 00:12:16,734 Speaker 3: because that's what brought down Joe Biden. It wasn't what 256 00:12:16,814 --> 00:12:17,974 Speaker 3: Joe Biden said. 257 00:12:17,774 --> 00:12:20,054 Speaker 2: At the last debate that was really the problem. 258 00:12:20,134 --> 00:12:22,134 Speaker 3: It was how he looked on the split screen when 259 00:12:22,134 --> 00:12:24,814 Speaker 3: Donald Trump was talking, and he looked old, he looked confused, 260 00:12:25,094 --> 00:12:26,734 Speaker 3: he looked like he didn't quite know what was going 261 00:12:26,734 --> 00:12:26,974 Speaker 3: on or. 262 00:12:26,934 --> 00:12:27,494 Speaker 2: Where he was. 263 00:12:27,814 --> 00:12:29,774 Speaker 3: So I am sure that both of them spent a 264 00:12:29,774 --> 00:12:32,694 Speaker 3: great deal of time perfecting how they were going to 265 00:12:32,694 --> 00:12:35,054 Speaker 3: look on the split screen. And I'm sure that Kamela 266 00:12:35,254 --> 00:12:38,214 Speaker 3: was being asked to walk a fine line between happy 267 00:12:38,214 --> 00:12:41,334 Speaker 3: warrior but not smirking. I can't imagine her team would 268 00:12:41,374 --> 00:12:43,894 Speaker 3: have wanted her to appear to be smirking. And the 269 00:12:44,014 --> 00:12:47,654 Speaker 3: laughing is tricky too, because she's having to appeal to 270 00:12:47,934 --> 00:12:50,494 Speaker 3: one group that's still undecided, and that is men. And 271 00:12:50,814 --> 00:12:53,574 Speaker 3: I don't think men often like the impression that a 272 00:12:53,574 --> 00:12:56,134 Speaker 3: woman is laughing at them. So she really was having 273 00:12:56,174 --> 00:12:59,454 Speaker 3: to again walk a fine line. As to whether she succeeded, 274 00:12:59,454 --> 00:13:01,734 Speaker 3: it's hard for me to say, because I'm not a man. 275 00:13:01,894 --> 00:13:04,214 Speaker 3: I mean to me, I thought she sort of landed 276 00:13:04,254 --> 00:13:06,974 Speaker 3: the happy warrior playing quite nicely. I mean, he was 277 00:13:07,014 --> 00:13:09,054 Speaker 3: saying a lot of things that were almost hard for 278 00:13:09,094 --> 00:13:12,054 Speaker 3: a few because they were so preposterous. And I think 279 00:13:12,054 --> 00:13:16,454 Speaker 3: she kept herself very controlled and very disciplined and on message. 280 00:13:16,494 --> 00:13:19,614 Speaker 3: But as to whether that sort of slice of under 281 00:13:19,614 --> 00:13:22,094 Speaker 3: one hundred thousand men in the three states that will 282 00:13:22,134 --> 00:13:26,014 Speaker 3: decide the election, how they view this woman maybe belittling 283 00:13:26,374 --> 00:13:27,894 Speaker 3: or countering a man, I don't know. 284 00:13:27,934 --> 00:13:29,214 Speaker 2: It's too hard for me to say. 285 00:13:29,854 --> 00:13:32,254 Speaker 1: You mentioned the state that they're in, So they had 286 00:13:32,254 --> 00:13:35,254 Speaker 1: this debate in Pennsylvania, which is a really important state 287 00:13:35,334 --> 00:13:37,574 Speaker 1: for both of these candidates to win. And that's why 288 00:13:37,614 --> 00:13:41,174 Speaker 1: you would have heard the debate over fracking brought up 289 00:13:41,254 --> 00:13:43,494 Speaker 1: quite a bit during this debate, because that is an 290 00:13:43,574 --> 00:13:47,254 Speaker 1: issue in Pennsylvania. Do you think she was able to 291 00:13:47,334 --> 00:13:50,734 Speaker 1: really convince people that she had switched from her twenty 292 00:13:50,814 --> 00:13:54,134 Speaker 1: nineteen view on banning fracking. Did she make that clear enough? 293 00:13:54,214 --> 00:13:56,694 Speaker 2: You think it was really interesting, wasn't it? 294 00:13:56,734 --> 00:13:58,814 Speaker 3: How that was maybe the moment in the debate when 295 00:13:58,854 --> 00:14:02,134 Speaker 3: she got the most exercise. It wasn't about abortion rights, 296 00:14:02,214 --> 00:14:05,854 Speaker 3: it wasn't about Putin or Ukraine. It was about whether 297 00:14:06,014 --> 00:14:08,814 Speaker 3: or not she wanted to ban fracking. And that's because 298 00:14:09,054 --> 00:14:12,174 Speaker 3: the debate was being held in Pennsylvania. The Democrats basically 299 00:14:12,214 --> 00:14:15,294 Speaker 3: can't win the White House without Pennsylvania. There's one possible path, 300 00:14:15,334 --> 00:14:17,814 Speaker 3: but it's pretty narrow. This is why she also knew 301 00:14:17,814 --> 00:14:21,094 Speaker 3: that there are seventy thousand Polish Americans in Pennsylvania. 302 00:14:21,134 --> 00:14:22,494 Speaker 2: That's a pretty obscure fact. 303 00:14:22,574 --> 00:14:26,094 Speaker 3: But again, she's really talking to Pennsylvanians in this debate. 304 00:14:26,654 --> 00:14:29,054 Speaker 3: I think she was really pitching it to that group. 305 00:14:29,254 --> 00:14:31,974 Speaker 3: Economically too, It's why she kept mentioning that she grew 306 00:14:32,054 --> 00:14:34,574 Speaker 3: up middle class. She said, I have a passion for 307 00:14:34,614 --> 00:14:37,214 Speaker 3: small business that didn't fully come across, by the way, 308 00:14:37,414 --> 00:14:39,054 Speaker 3: and then said at the end again, I love. 309 00:14:38,934 --> 00:14:39,814 Speaker 2: Our small businesses. 310 00:14:39,814 --> 00:14:42,334 Speaker 3: That felt a little flat to me, possibly inauthentic, but 311 00:14:42,894 --> 00:14:44,454 Speaker 3: I mean it was clear that she was talking to 312 00:14:44,494 --> 00:14:47,414 Speaker 3: a very narrow slice of people and really tailoring her 313 00:14:47,454 --> 00:14:48,214 Speaker 3: remarks to them. 314 00:14:48,814 --> 00:14:51,694 Speaker 2: I think fracking is one of those complicated. 315 00:14:51,014 --> 00:14:53,694 Speaker 3: Issues where it's really hard for someone who doesn't know 316 00:14:53,694 --> 00:14:55,534 Speaker 3: a lot about it to gain clarity as to what 317 00:14:55,574 --> 00:14:57,934 Speaker 3: they're talking about. To me, as a lay person, it 318 00:14:57,974 --> 00:15:01,134 Speaker 3: didn't necessarily come through very clearly what her current stance is. 319 00:15:01,494 --> 00:15:02,894 Speaker 2: Did you think it came through clearly? 320 00:15:03,454 --> 00:15:06,374 Speaker 1: I think she did make it very clear that she 321 00:15:06,454 --> 00:15:08,894 Speaker 1: would not ban fracking. But you're right, if you're not 322 00:15:09,214 --> 00:15:13,974 Speaker 1: a US what that story means for the population of Pennsylvania, 323 00:15:14,094 --> 00:15:17,414 Speaker 1: I guess it doesn't, which I'm not, which i'm also not, 324 00:15:17,854 --> 00:15:20,614 Speaker 1: And so I guess it feels like, Okay, she's made 325 00:15:20,654 --> 00:15:23,134 Speaker 1: her point here that she's not going to banfracking. Why 326 00:15:23,174 --> 00:15:25,854 Speaker 1: is that such a big deal? So I think she 327 00:15:25,934 --> 00:15:29,014 Speaker 1: made it clear. But whether the people of Pennsylvania feel differently, 328 00:15:29,054 --> 00:15:31,054 Speaker 1: I think is definitely the issue here. But we're not 329 00:15:31,054 --> 00:15:33,134 Speaker 1: going to know that obviously, because we don't want to Pennsylvania. 330 00:15:33,694 --> 00:15:37,414 Speaker 3: And also what do the other swing voters in Pennsylvania's important? Sure, 331 00:15:37,494 --> 00:15:39,534 Speaker 3: but what do other swing voters in other states who 332 00:15:39,574 --> 00:15:42,174 Speaker 3: don't care about this issue make of her sort of 333 00:15:42,494 --> 00:15:46,134 Speaker 3: unbridled passion for discussing her stance on fracking. It seems 334 00:15:46,214 --> 00:15:48,854 Speaker 3: kind of obscure to them, I would imagine. 335 00:15:48,374 --> 00:15:51,054 Speaker 1: Also, too, how do you feel about when you had 336 00:15:51,094 --> 00:15:53,734 Speaker 1: these two side by side? Do you feel like Karmla 337 00:15:53,854 --> 00:15:57,414 Speaker 1: was strong enough to overcome the at times craziness of 338 00:15:57,454 --> 00:16:01,854 Speaker 1: Trump's responses? Because Pennsylvania Governor Joshapiro has come out and said, look, 339 00:16:01,894 --> 00:16:03,974 Speaker 1: many Americans he feels might have had a bit of 340 00:16:03,974 --> 00:16:05,934 Speaker 1: brain fog about what it used to be like when 341 00:16:05,974 --> 00:16:09,094 Speaker 1: Trump was president, and he says that Kamala reminded them. 342 00:16:09,574 --> 00:16:11,374 Speaker 1: Do you think that that's true? Do you think that 343 00:16:12,174 --> 00:16:15,814 Speaker 1: her points were strong enough to deal with that instability 344 00:16:15,894 --> 00:16:17,014 Speaker 1: of Trump's responses. 345 00:16:17,694 --> 00:16:19,774 Speaker 3: One thing that I thought was really interesting was that 346 00:16:20,734 --> 00:16:23,134 Speaker 3: Trump broke the rules on a number of occasions when 347 00:16:23,174 --> 00:16:25,374 Speaker 3: he had been told, Okay, this is the last time 348 00:16:25,374 --> 00:16:27,774 Speaker 3: that you can respond to this. You can't respond to 349 00:16:27,814 --> 00:16:30,334 Speaker 3: this point because you already responded, and then he talked 350 00:16:30,374 --> 00:16:33,054 Speaker 3: over the moderators and they let him talk. I thought 351 00:16:33,054 --> 00:16:35,894 Speaker 3: that was a judicious decision on the moderator's part because 352 00:16:35,974 --> 00:16:38,454 Speaker 3: it shows that he doesn't follow the rules that he's 353 00:16:38,454 --> 00:16:40,494 Speaker 3: agreed to, which is in a way as kind of 354 00:16:40,534 --> 00:16:44,294 Speaker 3: like a parable for the broader debate about following the 355 00:16:44,294 --> 00:16:45,254 Speaker 3: results of the election. 356 00:16:45,854 --> 00:16:49,614 Speaker 1: I did find myself quietly clapping when Kamala would wrap 357 00:16:49,694 --> 00:16:51,494 Speaker 1: up her point and the moderators will say thank you, 358 00:16:51,574 --> 00:16:53,214 Speaker 1: Vice President and move on to the next thing. It's 359 00:16:53,254 --> 00:16:56,614 Speaker 1: like she is one hundred percent to her best ability 360 00:16:56,614 --> 00:16:57,374 Speaker 1: following the rules. 361 00:16:58,094 --> 00:17:00,974 Speaker 3: Yes, and I think that's what she was trying to show, 362 00:17:01,294 --> 00:17:04,134 Speaker 3: and the moderators letting Trump break the rules was really 363 00:17:04,214 --> 00:17:06,694 Speaker 3: kind of highlighting that he doesn't follow the rules. 364 00:17:06,694 --> 00:17:11,094 Speaker 2: So I thought that was really interesting. The question about reminding. 365 00:17:10,654 --> 00:17:13,654 Speaker 3: People, I can only speak to my own personal response. 366 00:17:13,694 --> 00:17:16,494 Speaker 3: This is me speaking just as a person watching the debate. 367 00:17:17,254 --> 00:17:20,374 Speaker 3: There was a lot of shouting, a lot of shouting, 368 00:17:20,734 --> 00:17:23,574 Speaker 3: and when you watch one hundred minutes of that, because 369 00:17:23,574 --> 00:17:26,214 Speaker 3: it went over, no doubt, because Trump was going over 370 00:17:26,254 --> 00:17:28,934 Speaker 3: in his responses and not following the rules, you feel 371 00:17:28,974 --> 00:17:30,454 Speaker 3: a bit exhausted. 372 00:17:29,894 --> 00:17:30,414 Speaker 2: At the end. 373 00:17:31,334 --> 00:17:33,694 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I did make a bit of equip to 374 00:17:33,694 --> 00:17:36,254 Speaker 1: my colleagues, I was like, this debate proudly brought to 375 00:17:36,254 --> 00:17:38,174 Speaker 1: you by the phrase, mister president, we have a lot 376 00:17:38,214 --> 00:17:41,094 Speaker 1: of issues to get to because they had to say 377 00:17:41,134 --> 00:17:43,694 Speaker 1: that over and over again to get him to stop 378 00:17:43,694 --> 00:17:45,654 Speaker 1: talking so they could move on to the next thing. So, 379 00:17:46,214 --> 00:17:48,014 Speaker 1: I mean, his supporters will see that as him just 380 00:17:48,174 --> 00:17:51,294 Speaker 1: not bending to the man. I guess is how they 381 00:17:51,294 --> 00:17:54,254 Speaker 1: would perceive that. But for someone who might not be 382 00:17:54,254 --> 00:17:56,894 Speaker 1: a Trump supporter, who might be a fence hitter, I'm 383 00:17:56,934 --> 00:18:00,334 Speaker 1: not sure if that behavior is going to win too 384 00:18:00,374 --> 00:18:01,094 Speaker 1: many people over. 385 00:18:01,694 --> 00:18:03,974 Speaker 3: Yeah. One insight I can give into this is that 386 00:18:04,134 --> 00:18:07,214 Speaker 3: I lived in the United States while Donald Trump was president, 387 00:18:07,334 --> 00:18:10,214 Speaker 3: and it was in a particularly difficult time for the 388 00:18:10,214 --> 00:18:12,614 Speaker 3: whole world. It was during the pandemic, a little bit 389 00:18:12,614 --> 00:18:15,374 Speaker 3: before it, and then during it. And I can tell 390 00:18:15,414 --> 00:18:18,774 Speaker 3: you that the experience of living in America when Donald 391 00:18:18,814 --> 00:18:21,854 Speaker 3: Trump is president is different from the experience of living 392 00:18:21,854 --> 00:18:24,694 Speaker 3: elsewhere while Donald Trump is president, because you wake up 393 00:18:24,814 --> 00:18:28,614 Speaker 3: every day and you think what's going to happen today, 394 00:18:28,854 --> 00:18:31,614 Speaker 3: and you just never quite know, because it could be 395 00:18:31,654 --> 00:18:34,494 Speaker 3: the tear gassing of protesters outside of the White House, 396 00:18:34,534 --> 00:18:37,414 Speaker 3: it could be an attempted coup it could be a 397 00:18:37,494 --> 00:18:38,494 Speaker 3: Nazi rally. 398 00:18:39,094 --> 00:18:40,374 Speaker 2: You just never quite know. 399 00:18:40,854 --> 00:18:44,054 Speaker 3: And you know, as a journalist you're obviously more immersed 400 00:18:44,094 --> 00:18:46,814 Speaker 3: in that news cycle than an everyday person. But I 401 00:18:46,854 --> 00:18:49,254 Speaker 3: think even everyday people, by the end of the Trump 402 00:18:49,294 --> 00:18:53,134 Speaker 3: presidency felt that the rollercoaster of news was a lot 403 00:18:53,454 --> 00:18:57,414 Speaker 3: and it felt very destabilizing. So I don't think I'm 404 00:18:57,414 --> 00:18:59,374 Speaker 3: going out on a limon saying that that was how 405 00:18:59,534 --> 00:19:02,094 Speaker 3: most people felt, and that was part of why Joe 406 00:19:02,174 --> 00:19:04,894 Speaker 3: Biden's big appeal in twenty twenty was this idea of 407 00:19:04,934 --> 00:19:08,294 Speaker 3: a return to calm and normalcy. Interestingly, Taylor Swift use 408 00:19:08,334 --> 00:19:11,254 Speaker 3: the phrase calm over ko in her endorsement of Kamala Harris, 409 00:19:11,294 --> 00:19:14,014 Speaker 3: which came immediately after the debate, and perhaps some love 410 00:19:14,054 --> 00:19:16,294 Speaker 3: how a lot of people felt at the end of 411 00:19:16,294 --> 00:19:18,454 Speaker 3: the Trump presidency and maybe how they felt after this 412 00:19:18,534 --> 00:19:19,174 Speaker 3: debate too. 413 00:19:19,734 --> 00:19:19,814 Speaker 2: Well. 414 00:19:19,814 --> 00:19:22,654 Speaker 1: I have to say from a journalist perspective too, that 415 00:19:23,094 --> 00:19:25,734 Speaker 1: the entire time that Trump was president, it did feel 416 00:19:25,734 --> 00:19:27,294 Speaker 1: like a roller coaster, and that you did have to 417 00:19:27,334 --> 00:19:29,054 Speaker 1: wake up every day and go, what am I reporting 418 00:19:29,054 --> 00:19:31,054 Speaker 1: about Trump today? How am I going to, you know, 419 00:19:31,174 --> 00:19:33,734 Speaker 1: let people know what crazy thing is going on in 420 00:19:33,734 --> 00:19:35,774 Speaker 1: the US right now? And someone said to me, you're 421 00:19:35,774 --> 00:19:37,814 Speaker 1: going to miss Donald Trump after he lost that election. 422 00:19:37,934 --> 00:19:40,654 Speaker 1: I was like, partly yes, because it makes it interesting 423 00:19:40,694 --> 00:19:42,694 Speaker 1: to talk about us politics. But the whole idea of 424 00:19:42,734 --> 00:19:44,894 Speaker 1: politics is that it should be dull enough that we 425 00:19:45,014 --> 00:19:47,454 Speaker 1: don't care to talk too much about it. They should 426 00:19:47,454 --> 00:19:49,454 Speaker 1: just be going about getting their job done and running 427 00:19:49,454 --> 00:19:51,814 Speaker 1: the country, which is ideally what they should do without 428 00:19:52,094 --> 00:19:55,174 Speaker 1: grabbing our attention in another insane kind of ways. So 429 00:19:55,214 --> 00:19:57,494 Speaker 1: I guess it was a little reminder. But as you mentioned, 430 00:19:57,494 --> 00:20:00,334 Speaker 1: Taylor Swift did endorse Kamala Harris. This is something we've 431 00:20:00,334 --> 00:20:03,094 Speaker 1: been waiting for for some time as to whether she 432 00:20:03,134 --> 00:20:06,454 Speaker 1: would do this or not, and she quite lovingly signed 433 00:20:06,454 --> 00:20:10,694 Speaker 1: off this endorsement with Taylor Swift Childless cat Lady, which 434 00:20:10,814 --> 00:20:15,254 Speaker 1: is obviously a reference to Trump's VP candidate jd Vance, 435 00:20:15,334 --> 00:20:18,254 Speaker 1: who basically said that they have no business playing part 436 00:20:18,294 --> 00:20:22,054 Speaker 1: in elections because they have nothing to invest in for 437 00:20:22,094 --> 00:20:22,614 Speaker 1: the future. 438 00:20:22,974 --> 00:20:23,854 Speaker 2: Essentially, Can I. 439 00:20:23,854 --> 00:20:27,054 Speaker 3: Just interrupt and say, if people have heard me on 440 00:20:27,174 --> 00:20:29,374 Speaker 3: podcasts on the Mum and Me network before, I do 441 00:20:29,574 --> 00:20:32,334 Speaker 3: love jd Vance and talking about ged Evans, because I 442 00:20:32,374 --> 00:20:36,134 Speaker 3: think he's just endlessly intriguing as to how one person 443 00:20:36,214 --> 00:20:39,494 Speaker 3: can be so consistently off putting. But I did love 444 00:20:39,694 --> 00:20:44,214 Speaker 3: how Harris mentioned she was talking about Trump's tendency to 445 00:20:44,334 --> 00:20:46,454 Speaker 3: becoming a desk pot and his desire to be a 446 00:20:46,494 --> 00:20:48,694 Speaker 3: dictator on day one, and she said, Who's going to 447 00:20:48,694 --> 00:20:49,294 Speaker 3: stop him? 448 00:20:49,454 --> 00:20:51,974 Speaker 2: Jd Vance isn't going to stop him? And I had 449 00:20:51,974 --> 00:20:55,894 Speaker 2: to chuckle because jd Vance is not going to stop it. No. 450 00:20:56,134 --> 00:20:59,334 Speaker 1: Well, Amelia, thank you so much for joining us and 451 00:20:59,334 --> 00:21:01,254 Speaker 1: breaking this down with us today. If you do want 452 00:21:01,254 --> 00:21:04,014 Speaker 1: more conversation about the debate, our mates over on Momma 453 00:21:04,094 --> 00:21:06,374 Speaker 1: Me Out Loud have also weighed in on this. You 454 00:21:06,374 --> 00:21:08,214 Speaker 1: can find a link to that in our show notes. 455 00:21:08,374 --> 00:21:10,334 Speaker 1: Thanks to Amelia, who's been king giving us across all 456 00:21:10,374 --> 00:21:12,854 Speaker 1: the developments in this presidential race, you can find links 457 00:21:12,894 --> 00:21:15,254 Speaker 1: to her articles and previous conversations right here on the 458 00:21:15,294 --> 00:21:16,974 Speaker 1: Cookie in our show notes too. 459 00:21:17,014 --> 00:21:18,774 Speaker 2: Thank you, Amelia, My pleasure. 460 00:21:19,254 --> 00:21:21,774 Speaker 1: The Cookie is produced by me Claire Murphy and our 461 00:21:21,814 --> 00:21:25,014 Speaker 1: senior producer Taylor Strano, with audio production by Tom Lyon.