WEBVTT - INBOX: Should I CC Someone's Boss To Escalate An Issue?

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to a Mother with Me podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello and welcome to biz in Box. I'm m Burnham

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<v Speaker 2>and look I'm recording from home today. I have talked

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<v Speaker 2>about working from home before, and I'm working from home today.

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<v Speaker 2>I started work at nine am and I woke up

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<v Speaker 2>at nine am.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm so first and that is amazing. It's probably

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<v Speaker 1>the greatest benefit of working from home. I love that

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<v Speaker 1>for you, m I love it. I never want to

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<v Speaker 1>go back anyway. Every week we answer your burning career

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<v Speaker 1>questions in the simplest way possible because we're busy and

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<v Speaker 1>we know you're busy as well, so we're just going

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<v Speaker 1>to give you the straight answers without the need for

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<v Speaker 1>a corporate translator. This week we've got questions on professionalism,

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<v Speaker 1>passive aggressiveness, and fashion.

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<v Speaker 2>Jumping straight into it. So if we had someone DM

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<v Speaker 2>a MoMA Mere Instagram bus account, you can follow us

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<v Speaker 2>at is by Mama Maya and jump into our dms anytime.

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<v Speaker 2>We're always stalking everyone on there. And we got this

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<v Speaker 2>DM from Sarah. She says, Hi, I'm in my twenties

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<v Speaker 2>and work in a team of all different ages. My

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<v Speaker 2>boss is considerably older than me and I get the

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<v Speaker 2>feeling he's dismissing me because of my age. How can

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<v Speaker 2>I be taken more seriously by my boss as a

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<v Speaker 2>professional colleague, not treated like a work experience in turn.

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<v Speaker 2>So I haven't really experienced this myself, but it's kind

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<v Speaker 2>of common where there's always like a big age gap

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes when it comes to employee and employer. And I've

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<v Speaker 2>actually had a friend who has the opposite experience where

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<v Speaker 2>he's in his thirties and his boss is twenty two,

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<v Speaker 2>And I think there's like a weird kind of dynamic

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<v Speaker 2>of like you being old and having more life experience

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<v Speaker 2>and then having to be managed by someone who probably

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't have that much experience as you have. But I

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<v Speaker 2>do think it's like, similar to Sarah, like a big

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<v Speaker 2>age gap. There always is something weird about that.

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<v Speaker 1>So now in an era where we've got five generations

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<v Speaker 1>in a single workforce, which is the first time we've

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<v Speaker 1>ever had that, so kind of crazy to Sarah's creestion.

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<v Speaker 1>And I really love this question.

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<v Speaker 3>I love it.

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<v Speaker 1>You know she's even thinking about how can I be

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<v Speaker 1>taken more seriously? It's hard to know without the details

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<v Speaker 1>of why she thinks her boss isn't taking her seriously.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, it's hard to know if she's actually doing

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<v Speaker 1>anything wrong. It could be sort of a perception issue

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<v Speaker 1>on his side. But there are some things you can

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<v Speaker 1>do to start to elevate your perception as being more

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<v Speaker 1>senior in people's minds. And so the first thing I'll

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<v Speaker 1>love to think about is make sure you're not undermining yourself.

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<v Speaker 1>Make sure you're not kind of having these I call

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<v Speaker 1>them own goals. So there's a few things that we

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<v Speaker 1>do sometimes that can make us come across as more junior,

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<v Speaker 1>and you just want to make sure you're not doing

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<v Speaker 1>those things. So things like getting sucked into complaining or

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<v Speaker 1>office gossip, that's kind of a dead giveaway that you

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<v Speaker 1>are junior. So just make sure you're not doing that.

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<v Speaker 1>Don't be unreliable, so like tell people what you're going

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<v Speaker 1>to do, do it, and then tell them that you

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<v Speaker 1>did it. If you're consistently sort of just delivering on

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<v Speaker 1>your core job, people are going to take you seriously.

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<v Speaker 3>They will.

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<v Speaker 1>And also, just don't write long emails. I think another

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<v Speaker 1>dead giveaway that your junior is just like writing really

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<v Speaker 1>long emails. So so no my own goals. And then

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<v Speaker 1>there's just a couple of simple things that you can

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<v Speaker 1>start to do to elevate yourself. So again, I think

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<v Speaker 1>it sounds a bit like her boss has a problem.

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<v Speaker 1>But some things that Zarah you might want to think

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<v Speaker 1>about is, you know, start thinking about what the leaders

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<v Speaker 1>think about. So what are the big things the company

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<v Speaker 1>is working on? What are the big problems? Even asking

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<v Speaker 1>your boss, like what's going on for you right now?

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<v Speaker 1>What are some of the challenging things for you? And

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<v Speaker 1>then start to think about how your work can help

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<v Speaker 1>with those problems. So even asks them, you know, how

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<v Speaker 1>can what I'm doing in my current role actually help

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<v Speaker 1>on some of those bigger things, and just like start

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<v Speaker 1>to elevate yourself and then get comfortable sharing your opinions

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<v Speaker 1>as well. I think a lot of the chat that

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<v Speaker 1>we get into when we're more junior is we think, well,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I'm just the person who's answering the customer

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<v Speaker 1>service emails, Like my job isn't that important? Your job

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<v Speaker 1>is actually so important because you have a ton of

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<v Speaker 1>knowledge and information that people at a senior level don't have.

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<v Speaker 1>So say, for example, you're the person who's answering the

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<v Speaker 1>customer service emails, he might say you know, my initial

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<v Speaker 1>point of view is we should do this because I've

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<v Speaker 1>read one hundred customer complaint emails recently and I'm seeing

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<v Speaker 1>this trend. I think we should do this because of

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<v Speaker 1>that reason. I'm interested to hear her you're thinking about it,

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<v Speaker 1>So just like, stop putting opinions out there, and that's

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<v Speaker 1>going to start to elevate you as being more senior

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<v Speaker 1>and to get taken more seriously.

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<v Speaker 2>That is so good. Oh my god, that's so helpful.

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<v Speaker 2>And then at the end of the day, if you

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<v Speaker 2>do all of that and it still doesn't work, then

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<v Speaker 2>he's just a.

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<v Speaker 3>Bit of a dick exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>So so we got this other DM and it's something

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<v Speaker 2>that I feel personally attacked by because it's so relatable.

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<v Speaker 2>Someone named Alex sent us this and she asked, is

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<v Speaker 2>it okay to see see someone's boss into a thread

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<v Speaker 2>if you're trying to escalate a task or problem personally. No,

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<v Speaker 2>It's happened to me so many times where I've been

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<v Speaker 2>asked to do something by email and it's like my

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<v Speaker 2>manager CECED, my manager's manager CEC, like three of my

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<v Speaker 2>colleagues are CC and I'm like, surely this is.

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<v Speaker 3>Too much Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>This is like the work equivalent of saying I'm telling mom.

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<v Speaker 1>So the moment you see see someone boss into a thread,

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<v Speaker 1>you're saying to that person, I don't trust you to

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<v Speaker 1>handle this, and your relationship with that person is as

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<v Speaker 1>good as done. So like, maybe this person's not important

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<v Speaker 1>to you, maybe it's like an external partner or just

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<v Speaker 1>like someone you don't really care about. Fine, but if

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<v Speaker 1>the person that you're emailing with is important to you,

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<v Speaker 1>do not see see the boss.

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<v Speaker 3>Into the thread.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's like an instant reputation killer, and your

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<v Speaker 1>relationship with that person is done. If you need to,

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<v Speaker 1>you can take that communication and show it to your

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<v Speaker 1>boss and kind of explain like I'm having this problem,

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<v Speaker 1>or you can show it to someone else internally, but

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<v Speaker 1>don't just start see seeing people on their side their

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<v Speaker 1>boss into the thread. Another thing to think about is

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<v Speaker 1>you don't know what kind of relationship they have with

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<v Speaker 1>their manager. And I've had people do it to me

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<v Speaker 1>right where they see see my manager and they don't

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<v Speaker 1>know that I'm very close with my manager. My manager

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<v Speaker 1>brings it straight to me and is like check this out,

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<v Speaker 1>Like why is this person doing this too? How can

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<v Speaker 1>I help you, and they're just like supporting me in

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<v Speaker 1>that situation.

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<v Speaker 3>So yeah, I do it.

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<v Speaker 2>And then what would you do if you keep getting

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<v Speaker 2>someone emailing you with your manager c seed and you're

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<v Speaker 2>not that close with your manager. Is it something that

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<v Speaker 2>you just have to get on with Would you talk

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<v Speaker 2>to your manager about it and be like, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know why she keeps leaping me into these emails.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm a massive fan of if the problem is with

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<v Speaker 1>the other person, I always think it's best to try

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<v Speaker 1>and solve the problem with that person first.

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<v Speaker 3>So I just love leveling.

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<v Speaker 1>With people, Like I don't know who this person is,

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<v Speaker 1>if they working in the company or they're outside the company,

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<v Speaker 1>but like, just level with people, Try and have a

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<v Speaker 1>conversation with them, try and call them on the phone,

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<v Speaker 1>or like go over to their desk if they're in

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<v Speaker 1>your office and just like have a chat, like, Hey,

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<v Speaker 1>can we talk about how we work together?

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<v Speaker 3>Be human? And yeah, just level with them.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, good writing that down right now. So after break,

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<v Speaker 2>we are breaking down probably the most serious conversation we've

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<v Speaker 2>had on this podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>M how much thought do you put into what you

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<v Speaker 1>were to work every day?

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<v Speaker 3>Oh?

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<v Speaker 2>I know that, Like the fashion team at work are

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<v Speaker 2>going to be so mad at this answer, But it's honestly,

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<v Speaker 2>like five minutes. We're very casual at mum and man.

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<v Speaker 2>It's very much like where what you want. But I

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<v Speaker 2>have noticed that since I've been working more closely with

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<v Speaker 2>men in the office, I have been more weary about

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<v Speaker 2>what I choose to wear. I think that's something I've

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<v Speaker 2>internalized in swet. I used to like go quite bra

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<v Speaker 2>less at work, and sometimes when it's cold and the

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<v Speaker 2>air cons are blasting, you do see the shape of

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<v Speaker 2>a nipple sometimes, sue me, Okay, sue me. And then

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<v Speaker 2>I realized that after a while, and I started to

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<v Speaker 2>like progress in my career, and I've been going to

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<v Speaker 2>like these really big sea your meetings with seeing your people,

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<v Speaker 2>not just men, but women as well. I'm like, maybe

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<v Speaker 2>I shouldn't be showing them my nipples, Like maybe I

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<v Speaker 2>shouldn't be my first interaction with these people. And then

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<v Speaker 2>since then, I feel like I've subdued my wardrobe quite

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<v Speaker 2>a lot.

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<v Speaker 1>This is such a valid point. Yeah, I really want

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<v Speaker 1>to unpack this with you. I think this is very important.

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<v Speaker 1>So the reason I ask about fashion is that our

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<v Speaker 1>final question today comes from Bree, and she wants to

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<v Speaker 1>know if it's okay to wear crocs to the office.

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<v Speaker 2>And absolutely not. I ran to that we're done, We're done.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks for listening to the podcast. I do not want

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<v Speaker 2>to see a crop in my line of vision.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow, I was gonna say, yeah, okay, maybe this is

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<v Speaker 1>our first disagreement.

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<v Speaker 3>M I'm into this.

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<v Speaker 1>I will just say, just to give some more detail

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<v Speaker 1>around Bree's situation, we don't really know what kind of

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<v Speaker 1>office she works in, but let's say it's sort of

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<v Speaker 1>a standard office vibe, maybe a bit like the.

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<v Speaker 3>Mum and Mere office. So, M, explain your answer. Why

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<v Speaker 3>is it a hard.

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<v Speaker 2>No for me? I just think they're the most ugly

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<v Speaker 2>shoe I've ever seen in my entire life. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>when you're having a bad work day, like you come

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<v Speaker 2>into work it's a Monday, you're like, oh, I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>really over the weekend. I wish I could have one

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<v Speaker 2>more day off, and then you see a croc and

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<v Speaker 2>it just makes everything ten times worse and you're already

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<v Speaker 2>feeling it's just like you're setting everyone else. It's not

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<v Speaker 2>just about you, you're setting everyone else up for a

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<v Speaker 2>really bad day. Obviously, I'm like joking, like, you can

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<v Speaker 2>wear what you want, Like I feel like I just

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<v Speaker 2>talked about my nipples. Surely that's like ten times worse

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<v Speaker 2>and wearing a croc.

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<v Speaker 3>Wait wait, wait, wait wait?

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<v Speaker 1>What if the crocs have cool little gibbits and you're

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<v Speaker 1>wearing them with socks?

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<v Speaker 2>Ah, if they look cool, I don't mind, But are

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<v Speaker 2>they gonna be noisy? Like do I have to look

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<v Speaker 2>at your croc? Cluss hear your croc? Because that's like

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<v Speaker 2>a whole other level.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so you hate crocs, m but the same kind

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<v Speaker 1>of level of casual.

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<v Speaker 3>What about songs in the office?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, songs in the office? I mean you get really

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<v Speaker 2>nice like designer ones now, like quite fancy ones. So

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<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't mind those, But I don't know how the

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<v Speaker 2>honors do we need those? Like I'm not going to

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<v Speaker 2>the beach or in the office.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe I'm just like a big fan of like don't

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<v Speaker 2>keep your dogs out, like close shoes, closed shoes only.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I think it's along the similar vein. Like

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<v Speaker 2>I was mentioning before about things that you are comfortable

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<v Speaker 2>in that you want to wear to the office, because

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<v Speaker 2>like I guess you want to be your most comfortable self,

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<v Speaker 2>but you're actually not really sure if people who just

0:10:29.810 --> 0:10:30.490
<v Speaker 2>not vibe that.

0:10:30.890 --> 0:10:33.690
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean there is a like semi serious aside

0:10:33.690 --> 0:10:35.810
<v Speaker 1>to this in that when you're going to the office,

0:10:35.810 --> 0:10:37.690
<v Speaker 1>it's not like you're just in your living room at home,

0:10:37.730 --> 0:10:40.850
<v Speaker 1>and you actually, you know, you're part of a team

0:10:40.890 --> 0:10:43.210
<v Speaker 1>of people who all want to feel comfortable in that

0:10:43.410 --> 0:10:46.929
<v Speaker 1>environment as well. So if this is a genuine question

0:10:47.170 --> 0:10:50.890
<v Speaker 1>from three yes sus the vibes, look at the culture

0:10:50.890 --> 0:10:53.250
<v Speaker 1>that your company has. You know, it's totally appropriate to

0:10:53.290 --> 0:10:56.730
<v Speaker 1>ask your manager or someone else in the company if

0:10:56.770 --> 0:10:59.130
<v Speaker 1>it's okay to wear crocs, like it's totally fine.

0:10:58.970 --> 0:11:00.690
<v Speaker 3>To do that, or what the dress code is.

0:11:01.050 --> 0:11:03.410
<v Speaker 1>I think it leads into the kind of wardrobe question

0:11:03.490 --> 0:11:05.890
<v Speaker 1>that I have a lot is like is this two

0:11:05.930 --> 0:11:06.450
<v Speaker 1>see through?

0:11:06.730 --> 0:11:10.170
<v Speaker 3>Or is this actually pajamas? And I find myself asking

0:11:10.210 --> 0:11:10.770
<v Speaker 3>that all the time.

0:11:10.810 --> 0:11:12.810
<v Speaker 1>So I do think it kind of is hard to

0:11:12.930 --> 0:11:14.210
<v Speaker 1>kind of know where the line is.

0:11:14.450 --> 0:11:18.330
<v Speaker 2>So back to like my nipple dilemma, I feel like

0:11:18.650 --> 0:11:21.690
<v Speaker 2>the whole reason why I like stopped kind of dressing

0:11:21.730 --> 0:11:24.410
<v Speaker 2>like that was only internalized, Like no one ever told

0:11:24.450 --> 0:11:26.970
<v Speaker 2>me that you shouldn't be wearing that top or anything

0:11:27.010 --> 0:11:29.570
<v Speaker 2>like that. It was more like a personal preference of

0:11:29.610 --> 0:11:32.490
<v Speaker 2>mine because of I guess the workplace that we work in.

0:11:32.770 --> 0:11:35.130
<v Speaker 2>But I do know from friend who work in more

0:11:35.170 --> 0:11:38.050
<v Speaker 2>like corporate roles that there is kind of like an

0:11:38.170 --> 0:11:41.490
<v Speaker 2>unspoken attire that you have to abide by. And I

0:11:41.530 --> 0:11:43.890
<v Speaker 2>think back, I'm going to say back in the day,

0:11:43.930 --> 0:11:47.050
<v Speaker 2>but like I reckon, when I was probably born, like

0:11:47.090 --> 0:11:49.490
<v Speaker 2>around the nineties and stuff, it was still very much

0:11:49.570 --> 0:11:54.130
<v Speaker 2>like heel, skirt, blouse, blazer, And even though that's not

0:11:54.250 --> 0:11:57.650
<v Speaker 2>really spoken about or like pushed formally anymore, I feel

0:11:57.650 --> 0:11:59.490
<v Speaker 2>like a lot of them still dress that way. Is

0:11:59.530 --> 0:12:01.050
<v Speaker 2>that like still a thing that's happening.

0:12:01.330 --> 0:12:03.250
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean you have to think about the way

0:12:03.330 --> 0:12:06.250
<v Speaker 1>you dress is part of your personal brand, and when

0:12:06.290 --> 0:12:08.930
<v Speaker 1>you're meeting people, one of the ways that they form

0:12:08.930 --> 0:12:11.770
<v Speaker 1>an impression of you quite quickly is based on what

0:12:11.850 --> 0:12:14.850
<v Speaker 1>you're wearing. If you are someone who is going out

0:12:14.890 --> 0:12:18.050
<v Speaker 1>and meeting clients, you're actually representing your company in a way.

0:12:18.290 --> 0:12:21.209
<v Speaker 1>What you're wearing sort of is part of the company's

0:12:21.250 --> 0:12:24.210
<v Speaker 1>brand too. So yeah, I think it's different for every company.

0:12:24.290 --> 0:12:27.490
<v Speaker 1>Like at Google, I could wear whatever I wanted and

0:12:27.570 --> 0:12:30.570
<v Speaker 1>I loved it, I got to experiment, and I yeah,

0:12:30.610 --> 0:12:33.450
<v Speaker 1>I loved just like wearing something that looked like pajamas

0:12:33.450 --> 0:12:35.450
<v Speaker 1>to work every day and like lots of bright colors

0:12:35.450 --> 0:12:37.610
<v Speaker 1>and stuff. But I do know that the people who

0:12:37.650 --> 0:12:39.770
<v Speaker 1>I work in marketing, right, I know that people who

0:12:39.810 --> 0:12:41.490
<v Speaker 1>worked in the sales team, who were going out and

0:12:41.570 --> 0:12:44.570
<v Speaker 1>meeting clients, they did dress a little bit differently, and

0:12:44.570 --> 0:12:46.250
<v Speaker 1>they probably thought about it in a different way. It

0:12:46.290 --> 0:12:48.210
<v Speaker 1>wasn't just about them, it was also about how they're

0:12:48.210 --> 0:12:50.770
<v Speaker 1>representing the company. So I just think, yeah, it's like

0:12:50.850 --> 0:12:53.890
<v Speaker 1>sus the vibes that your company ask the question and

0:12:54.490 --> 0:12:56.530
<v Speaker 1>think about how it's making you show up and how

0:12:56.610 --> 0:12:58.450
<v Speaker 1>it's making the company show up as well.

0:12:58.810 --> 0:13:00.570
<v Speaker 2>That's a good point. And do you have like an

0:13:00.610 --> 0:13:04.090
<v Speaker 2>experience of where someone didn't really get the dress code

0:13:04.250 --> 0:13:04.850
<v Speaker 2>at work?

0:13:05.090 --> 0:13:07.210
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's funny, like I know it kind of chatting

0:13:07.210 --> 0:13:09.250
<v Speaker 1>about crocs and thongs and stuff and it's all sort

0:13:09.250 --> 0:13:13.450
<v Speaker 1>of fun. But I remember talking to a senior leader

0:13:13.450 --> 0:13:15.730
<v Speaker 1>at Google who actually worked in Silicon Valley in the

0:13:15.770 --> 0:13:18.370
<v Speaker 1>head office, and he told me this story that the

0:13:18.490 --> 0:13:22.490
<v Speaker 1>hardest conversation he's ever had to have at work was

0:13:22.610 --> 0:13:26.890
<v Speaker 1>actually telling a gen Z employee that what she was

0:13:26.930 --> 0:13:30.130
<v Speaker 1>wearing to the office was inappropriate, and he had to

0:13:30.170 --> 0:13:34.690
<v Speaker 1>have several conversations with HR, coaching sessions with HR to

0:13:34.810 --> 0:13:37.530
<v Speaker 1>coach him on how to have the conversation. And so

0:13:37.850 --> 0:13:40.530
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't coming from him. Other people had been coming

0:13:40.530 --> 0:13:42.810
<v Speaker 1>to him as her manager and saying this is something

0:13:42.850 --> 0:13:43.530
<v Speaker 1>that we think.

0:13:43.330 --> 0:13:45.490
<v Speaker 3>You need to talk to her about. He had to

0:13:45.490 --> 0:13:46.210
<v Speaker 3>have the conversation.

0:13:46.330 --> 0:13:48.290
<v Speaker 1>So, you know, again, like it comes down to how

0:13:48.290 --> 0:13:50.810
<v Speaker 1>people are perceiving you. It is something you need to

0:13:50.810 --> 0:13:54.090
<v Speaker 1>think about. But I'm still for the record, pro Crocs

0:13:54.170 --> 0:13:54.850
<v Speaker 1>in the office.

0:13:54.970 --> 0:13:56.610
<v Speaker 2>Okay, pro Crocs.

0:13:56.250 --> 0:13:57.290
<v Speaker 3>You know what do it?

0:13:57.370 --> 0:13:59.170
<v Speaker 2>I just know I'm going to go back into the office.

0:13:59.330 --> 0:14:02.490
<v Speaker 2>Everyone's going to be wearing Crocs. I just know it's Crocs.

0:14:02.170 --> 0:14:03.850
<v Speaker 3>Are a bit over now. I think we've moved on

0:14:03.970 --> 0:14:05.850
<v Speaker 3>to other brands. They're two may strength.

0:14:05.890 --> 0:14:08.850
<v Speaker 1>But thank you for helping us clear the Biez inbox.

0:14:08.890 --> 0:14:11.090
<v Speaker 3>If you've got a work question, send it away.

0:14:11.610 --> 0:14:13.770
<v Speaker 1>You'll find a link to submit your questions in the

0:14:13.770 --> 0:14:14.329
<v Speaker 1>show notes.

0:14:14.650 --> 0:14:17.690
<v Speaker 2>Also, if you missed it earlier this week, Mish and so,

0:14:17.770 --> 0:14:21.050
<v Speaker 2>if you taught us a very valuable lesson on why

0:14:21.170 --> 0:14:24.330
<v Speaker 2>it's not only okay but kind of essential to be

0:14:24.690 --> 0:14:28.530
<v Speaker 2>part personality higher in your office, which is great news

0:14:28.690 --> 0:14:32.530
<v Speaker 2>for me. We'll be back in the biz inbox next week.

0:14:32.850 --> 0:14:45.010
<v Speaker 4>Bye bye, Mamma.

0:14:45.050 --> 0:14:48.210
<v Speaker 2>Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that

0:14:48.290 --> 0:14:49.690
<v Speaker 2>this podcast is recorded on