Speaker 1: Hello, I'm Kate Langbrook, host of No Filter. Today's guest
Speaker 1: is Jenny Haynes. Jenny has lived through things that are
Speaker 1: almost impossible to comprehend. As a child, she survived years
Speaker 1: of horrific sexual abuse at the hands of her father
Speaker 1: by creating what she describes as multiple personalities, thousands of
Speaker 1: distinct voices and protectors who emerged to carry memories, fear, pain,
Speaker 1: and meant that she could survive. In twenty nineteen, Jenny
Speaker 1: became the first person in Australian legal history to have
Speaker 1: those personalities accepted as evidence in a criminal trial against
Speaker 1: her father, testimony that helped convict him and sentence him
Speaker 1: to forty five years in prison. There's now a documentary
Speaker 1: about Jenny's life called We Are Jenny. But sitting across
Speaker 1: from her, what struck me wasn't just the enormity of
Speaker 1: what she survived. It was her warmth, her humor, her intelligence,
Speaker 1: and the extraordinary tenderness she has for the people she
Speaker 1: created inside herself in order to survive it. In this conversation,
Speaker 1: Jenny talks openly about trauma, memory, survival, and the internal
Speaker 1: system she built to protect herself. She explains how those
Speaker 1: personalities came to exist, what they carried for her, and
Speaker 1: why so many of them are still with her today.
Speaker 1: While we don't discuss the abuse Jenny endured as a
Speaker 1: child in graphic detail, it is still central to this conversation.
Speaker 1: So please listen mindfully. This is Jenny Haynes on No Filter.
Speaker 1: Doctor Jenny Haynes. Welcome to No Filter.
Speaker 2: Thank you. It's a total pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1: Well, you have been on No Filter before, sashay it.
Speaker 1: You had a most remarkable conversation with Maya. Yes, and
Speaker 1: Maya describes it as one of the most extraordinary conversations
Speaker 1: that she's ever had.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, thank you Mia. And she met so many
Speaker 2: aspects of you. Yes, Yes, she had the what we
Speaker 2: call the cavalcade of stars. Everybody flips in, says something
Speaker 2: and leaves.
Speaker 1: Which for people who don't know about you, you have.
Speaker 2: I have multiple personality disorder. It's more commonly termed dissociative
Speaker 2: identity disorder, but I prefer multiple personalities because it fits
Speaker 2: for my experience more than dissociated identiti stars. And I
Speaker 2: know that some people get quite upset about me not
Speaker 2: using the current terminology, but that's the terminology for psychiatrists. Right,
Speaker 2: I'm not a psychiatrist. I'm living there. And if I
Speaker 2: want to have multiple personalities in dissociated identities and don't
Speaker 2: see I'm causing anybody else any problem. Well that's interesting because.
Speaker 1: You don't seem to be disassociated, you seem to be associated.
Speaker 2: Exactly for me, the way disassociated identities tends to be
Speaker 2: written is we took chunks of ourselves and pushed them away.
Speaker 2: We've dissociated. They're not part of us now. I understand
Speaker 2: that that's the experience for a large number of people
Speaker 2: with DD. And this is just me reflecting on my experience.
Speaker 2: I'm not speaking for the large body of people out
Speaker 2: there with DID. But we didn't cut chunks of ourself
Speaker 2: and pushed them away. We actually created more of ourself.
Speaker 2: So we made people symphony, made people friends that would
Speaker 2: help her, and so we're not dissociated in a m
Speaker 2: push away. It's not a barrier. Yeah, right, So as
Speaker 2: we talk today, I have no doubt that a whole
Speaker 2: load of people are going to come and talk to you,
Speaker 2: because they're all sitting with me in the doorway facing
Speaker 2: the outside world, ready to talk. And that's what my
Speaker 2: life is like. It's like I walk around with two thousand,
Speaker 2: six hundred and eighty one other humans in my head.
Speaker 1: Now that's the same number that you had when you
Speaker 1: spoke to Maya. That's right, Still the same.
Speaker 2: Number, that's right. They well, when we integrated everybody and
Speaker 2: we came down to a very small number, it was
Speaker 2: hell never doing that again. But they were gone for
Speaker 2: a good nine years, and then when we started to
Speaker 2: make the statement, they came back to tell their stories
Speaker 2: and they went and sat in what we call the
Speaker 2: integration corridor, and they're sitting there ready to integrate, but
Speaker 2: it now takes from two thousand and nine to twenty
Speaker 2: and nineteen to actually get Dad in court. So they're
Speaker 2: waiting ten years. They're literally on hold, can't go anywhere,
Speaker 2: I can't do anything. They're waiting to testify so that
Speaker 2: then they can integrate and go away. And when we
Speaker 2: did the testifying, we went back to everybody and said, well,
Speaker 2: you know, you were there for the bad times, would
Speaker 2: you like to be here for some fun? And so
Speaker 2: people are actually sticking around to do something fun before
Speaker 2: they then take the step into integration and bringing down
Speaker 2: the numbers. So when you say fun, you're talking about
Speaker 2: what I would call from my perspective, vindication. When I
Speaker 2: talk about fun, I'm talking about the ability to eat pineapple.
Speaker 2: That's how basics some of these altars are. I have
Speaker 2: a girl who only wants to eat pineapple. That's her
Speaker 2: fun thing to do. So it's a bit of a challenge.
Speaker 2: So everybody's coming to do something enjoyable because their life
Speaker 2: was well fourteen nine years of hell. And I'm not
Speaker 2: going to say to them, Little Ricky will not say
Speaker 2: to them it is your turn to integrate now without
Speaker 2: them actually coming out and doing something enjoyable. It might
Speaker 2: be go to the beach, it might be play magic,
Speaker 2: the gathering, gone to a Dungeons and Dragons day, eat pineapple,
Speaker 2: eat banana, it could be anything. So for people who
Speaker 2: may not know, they start at the beginning, start at
Speaker 2: the beginning. So in your case, I'm assuming that this
Speaker 2: is often the case that the altars come forward these
Speaker 2: other personalities because of trauma. Yeah, so oh it's happening.
Speaker 2: Who is it? Hi, Kate, I'm symphony Symphony, and I'm
Speaker 2: going to come answer your question. Thank you, my goodness,
Speaker 2: you're looking for more beautiful in person than you do
Speaker 2: on the Telly Symphony, The beauty of a four year
Speaker 2: old girl. She's she's oh sorry. So I was born,
Speaker 2: and then I started to deal with the horrendous life
Speaker 2: with Dad. And Daddy was not groovy, but he's he
Speaker 2: was my job to look after. So I had to
Speaker 2: deal with Daddy. And there were things that happened along
Speaker 2: the way that made it hard for me to deal
Speaker 2: with Daddy. And I accidentally made other people to take
Speaker 2: care of what I called the distracting yes, because it
Speaker 2: was so extreme. Yeah, you can't do what Daddy wants
Speaker 2: when you're inhaling his horrendous smell at the same time.
Speaker 2: So we brought somebody who could take the smell away.
Speaker 2: We created somebody who could take his noises away. We
Speaker 2: developed somebody who doesn't breathe. George Blair West as psychiatrist,
Speaker 2: really freaked every time the boy who didn't breathe came
Speaker 2: for a visit, because he doesn't breathe. It's literally, he
Speaker 2: doesn't breathe. But everybody that I made, I made them
Speaker 2: so that they would take away the things that made
Speaker 2: it hard for me to deal with Daddy. And I
Speaker 2: didn't realize I was making so many I could create
Speaker 2: anywhere up to fifty altars in a day if Dad
Speaker 2: was being particularly unpleasant, but they would come. So let's
Speaker 2: take the guy who deals with the smell. Dad smells
Speaker 2: like the most unwashed construction worker combined with the smell
Speaker 2: of burning baker light, which is what old TVs were
Speaker 2: made of in the seventies. And Dad reeks of this,
Speaker 2: and it's an overpowering, smothering, choking smell. So we created
Speaker 2: alters that could take the smell away. So I deal
Speaker 2: with Dad and the smell is dealt with by somebody
Speaker 2: else so that I don't have to fight to be
Speaker 2: able to deal with what Daddy is expecting us to do,
Speaker 2: which for those people who don't know, is really unpleasant.
Speaker 2: And we'll probably leave it at that. Okay, we don't
Speaker 2: not go into any I don't want to do this.
Speaker 2: I just want to make sure that everybody that listens
Speaker 2: to this or watches this knows that I am going
Speaker 2: to do my absolute best not to trigger or distress
Speaker 2: any of you, because that's what Daddy does. That's not
Speaker 2: what symphony does. And Symphony might I say, you've done
Speaker 2: an extraordinary job. Thank you, thank you so much, and you've.
Speaker 1: Shown incredible courage looking after that little girl that was
Speaker 1: your friend.
Speaker 2: Yes, I looked after Jennifer Margaret Linda, And so when
Speaker 2: people want to know where's the original child, we finally
Speaker 2: let go of her in twenty twenty and she was
Speaker 2: six months old when I let go of her, and
Speaker 2: she is now. She just turned fifty six at our
Speaker 2: most recent birthday. And she grew from zero to fifty
Speaker 2: six in less than five years? And how was it
Speaker 2: watching that? It was so cool? And now she's like,
Speaker 2: I can actually give back to you guys, because everything
Speaker 2: was about protecting Jennifer Margaret. And we say her full
Speaker 2: name because it differentiates her there, differentiates her from the
Speaker 2: other idea of who Jenny is, right, because we don't
Speaker 2: actually create alters named Jenny. I just became Jenny. My
Speaker 2: name is symphony. Actually my name is the symbol for
Speaker 2: the treble cleft. Yes, and your musical yes. Yes, And
Speaker 2: was musical music part of what was created to protect music? Yes?
Speaker 2: In the short yes, But Daddy told us he could
Speaker 2: read our minds and if we even thought about telling,
Speaker 2: he would kill my siblings, the cats, the guinea pigs,
Speaker 2: and my mummy. So we think in song lyrics, right,
Speaker 2: and that can be very entertaining.
Speaker 1: A Yeah.
Speaker 2: When we wrote our victim impact statement, we had to
Speaker 2: try to explain the concept of how Daddy is inconstant
Speaker 2: so what is what he wants today is not what
Speaker 2: he's going to want tomorrow. So he would hit me
Speaker 2: until I cried because I wasn't crying, and then he
Speaker 2: would hit me because I was crying, and then he
Speaker 2: would hit me because I was crying unnecessarily, and he'd
Speaker 2: give me something to pooter about. So he was super inconsistent.
Speaker 2: But we had to try to describe that in a
Speaker 2: victim impact statement and we ended up with meat loafs.
Speaker 2: When the rubber meets the road, yes means no, means
Speaker 2: yes means no when the rubber meets the road. Did
Speaker 2: not think we'd ever quote a song about a condom.
Speaker 1: You know, your case was extraordinary for a number of reasons.
Speaker 1: Extraordinary in truly terrible ways, but also extraordinary in legal
Speaker 1: changing ways, and yes, obviously life changing for you because
Speaker 1: I believe it was the first time that alters the
Speaker 1: other personalities were allowed to testify in court, allowed to
Speaker 1: give evidence.
Speaker 2: That's right. We're the first successful case where the prosecution
Speaker 2: has been able to use multiple personalities dissociated identities to
Speaker 2: prove abuse, so it had never been tried before. The
Speaker 2: only time MPD had come up in the legal area
Speaker 2: previously had been cases where people had attempted to claim
Speaker 2: they had MPD to reduce their culpability, which absolutely burns
Speaker 2: me because we believe if the gob said it and
Speaker 2: the body done it, we all own it.
Speaker 3: So this not.
Speaker 2: Being responsible because you have MPD is utter bullshit to us.
Speaker 1: You know what was extraordinary and because there's a docco
Speaker 1: coming out, a documentary about you called We Are Jenny,
Speaker 1: That's right, in which you revisit your family home and
Speaker 1: the scene, yes, where this horrendous abuse and torture took
Speaker 1: place at the hands of your father. But in it
Speaker 1: we're introduced to not just not just your characters, yes,
Speaker 1: but also your psychiatrist and a very beautiful inspective detective
Speaker 1: inspected detective Paul.
Speaker 2: Who believed you. These people believed you, that's right. It
Speaker 2: all begins in two thousand and nine when I went
Speaker 2: to the Queensland Police and I met a gentleman named
Speaker 2: Rod Messa, and we started to tell our story and
Speaker 2: then we said we need to tell you something. We
Speaker 2: have multiple personality disorder. And Rod Messa said that actually
Speaker 2: increases your credibility, it doesn't decrease it. And he's the
Speaker 2: first one who believed me in a legal setting, right,
Speaker 2: And how did that feel? I think that there are
Speaker 2: still some altars that are still shaking from that comment
Speaker 2: because it ricocheted through the system and everybody that has
Speaker 2: had a bad time immediately goes back to those altars
Speaker 2: that hold Rod Messa's words sacred. And if you have
Speaker 2: it a bad time, you just go and listen to
Speaker 2: Rod Missa tell you that you're credible, beautiful, and also
Speaker 2: because they're people who deal in facts exactly. And so
Speaker 2: he took our statement or let us make gas statement.
Speaker 2: And then about a year later it landed on Paulstermullus's
Speaker 2: desk in Bankstown Area Command in New South Wales, and
Speaker 2: Paul believed us. Yes, and Paul has been with us
Speaker 2: ever since, and he's a magic. He had a photo
Speaker 2: of your father, Oh yes, yes on his desk. He
Speaker 2: saw it every day when he started work, and he
Speaker 2: looked at it every day when he ended work. I
Speaker 2: personally think that's just nightmare, but it motivated Paul and
Speaker 2: when we were getting knockbacks from people who thought, you know,
Speaker 2: this woman's a bit lulu. You know there's something very
Speaker 2: wrong with her because she can remember everything, everything Daddy said,
Speaker 2: everything that he did, what he said, when he said it,
Speaker 2: how he said it. And people can't really struggle to
Speaker 2: believe that. But to me, I mean when they tell you, now,
Speaker 2: this is just my One of my things that annoys
Speaker 2: me is there. You cannot get justice if you were
Speaker 2: abused under the age of five unless you are still
Speaker 2: a child when you talk about it, which is often
Speaker 2: impossible to do. And why because they can't the community
Speaker 2: justice systems have a difficulty believing that you can remember
Speaker 2: what happened to you when you're a tiny child. Now,
Speaker 2: if we think about that for a few seconds, that
Speaker 2: to get out of jail free card for every child
Speaker 2: molester in the world. Rape your child before the age
Speaker 2: of five, and they'll never get justice because that's not
Speaker 2: seen as credible. Exactly. But trauma memory stays in your
Speaker 2: head in a different way from non traumatic memories. You
Speaker 2: I can't remember every day getting up, cleaning my teeth,
Speaker 2: having a bath, or what, but I can tell you
Speaker 2: enormous items that happened because they were traumatic, and my
Speaker 2: altars just took those memories and they hold them sacred.
Speaker 2: Well interesting because Paul the detective said, when when your
Speaker 2: altars were recounting these multiple incidences of abuse, it was
Speaker 2: as fresh as as if it happened yesterday, because for
Speaker 2: them it did, it was yesterday. I mean, if you
Speaker 2: ask us to visualize the house, we don't have to
Speaker 2: visualize it. We can go inside and we can look
Speaker 2: and it'll be sitting here as real as you are,
Speaker 2: and then it's easy over the kitchens here, the bedrooms there.
Speaker 2: In the documentary, they showed multiple times us going into
Speaker 2: my dad's bedroom and that was a very scary place
Speaker 2: for us. But when we did the walkthrough, we'd only
Speaker 2: been in that house as a child and we were
Speaker 2: a child's height. When we went into that room as
Speaker 2: an adult, it hit me. It felt like the room
Speaker 2: reached out and slapped me across the face because I
Speaker 2: finally understood a thing that had puzzled me my whole life.
Speaker 2: When we moved in, my parents got a like a
Speaker 2: wardrobe chest of drawers kind of affair. It was two
Speaker 2: wardrobes on either side of chester drawers and then a
Speaker 2: built in, backed up mirror, and when we first moved
Speaker 2: in it was on the far side of my parents' bed.
Speaker 2: Two weeks later it had been the mirror had been
Speaker 2: taken out and moved to the other side of the room.
Speaker 2: Now it puzzled me because it really broke up the
Speaker 2: entire setting, and I thought it was a bit bizarre.
Speaker 2: It's only when I walked in as an adult and
Speaker 2: realized that from standing in the doorway, I would have
Speaker 2: been reflected in that mirror. And that's when it hit
Speaker 2: me how calculating and how aware my father was of
Speaker 2: danger of being found out. And that's why we have
Speaker 2: to have a two minute break after we walked into
Speaker 2: his bedroom because everything just made sense.
Speaker 1: I'll be back with Jenny after this short break when
Speaker 1: you went back to the house for the documentary. You
Speaker 1: Jenny were there.
Speaker 2: When we went back for the walkthrough in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 2: I would say that when we walked up to the
Speaker 2: house there would have been at least two hundred and
Speaker 2: fifty alters in the body at the same time, and
Speaker 2: everyone is going, look, the rockery is still there, the
Speaker 2: fence on the side, although the fence itself has changed,
Speaker 2: it's in exactly the same positions where our where Dad
Speaker 2: put the barrier so we couldn't escape. Everything was the same,
Speaker 2: and then we were able to go through and talk
Speaker 2: about what was different. But as to having a Jenny
Speaker 2: that was there, we had a front runner at the time,
Speaker 2: and she was there. And this is the person that
Speaker 2: most a front runner is the person that you would
Speaker 2: engage with if you were seeing Jenny. You meet me
Speaker 2: on the street and you say hello, and you're talking
Speaker 2: to the Jenny that is the front runner, right and
Speaker 2: everybody else is behind? So what's that front runner Jenny?
Speaker 2: Like the one in twenty fifteen, she was beautiful, she
Speaker 2: was in That does not mean you are not beautiful
Speaker 2: all I walked right into that, didn't I. So the
Speaker 2: Jenny that we had, she was strong, she was powerful,
Speaker 2: She was determined. She was the one that just kept pushing.
Speaker 2: She was determined. She phoned the police and she was like, well,
Speaker 2: you know, what do you need? Just let me know
Speaker 2: what you need. I'll do it. You know, she fell
Speaker 2: over and stopped being front runner. Christmas of twenty eighteen,
Speaker 2: we had been promised a large amount of support for
Speaker 2: the trial that was due for February twenty nineteen and
Speaker 2: in the lead up to Christmas, everybody that had promised
Speaker 2: to be there was phoning us and saying sorry, we
Speaker 2: can't make it. And were they witnesses or just supports,
Speaker 2: support workers and support services And it was very difficult
Speaker 2: because we live in Queensland. We were going to be
Speaker 2: tall intents and purposes alone in Sydney dealing with this
Speaker 2: and we had done everything that we could to get support.
Speaker 2: But you know this is something that is a real
Speaker 2: issue for survivors. Is if so. I contacted New South
Speaker 2: Wales Rape Crisis and I said, I'm coming to court
Speaker 2: in New South Wales. I live in Queensland. Now, the
Speaker 2: way that the rape crisis was funded they could only
Speaker 2: provide support to New South Wales residents. I couldn't use
Speaker 2: them because I lived in Queensland. But the Queensland Support Agencies,
Speaker 2: their funding is for abuse that took place in Queensland.
Speaker 2: What we need is an acknowledgment that offenders move, and
Speaker 2: they do it quite deliberately because you have to go
Speaker 2: back to the jurisdiction where it happened if you want justice.
Speaker 2: So if you've lived in fifteen places, you've got to
Speaker 2: go and you're potentially looking at fifteen trials and so
Speaker 2: there's not a consistence support. We need nation wide support
Speaker 2: services that can say you're in Queensland, it happened in Tasmania.
Speaker 2: We will support you, will link you in because you've
Speaker 2: got to go to Tasmania for the trial, will link
Speaker 2: you in with agencies that can help you. Because everybody
Speaker 2: that had said they would help me told me that
Speaker 2: they couldn't Christmas Week and this led to Jenny right,
Speaker 2: front runner Jenny front runner Jenny being retired and because
Speaker 2: she just couldn't deal with it, and that led to
Speaker 2: our most recent front runner, And she introduces herself as
Speaker 2: the entity currently known as Jenny because we make her
Speaker 2: every day. She's a different Jenny every day based on
Speaker 2: the skills that Yeah, right is she? Am? I talking
Speaker 2: to her now? You will be in just two seconds? Really, Hey,
Speaker 2: I am the entity currently known as Jenny. Hello, Jenny, Hi, Kate,
Speaker 2: it's so nice to meet you, you two. You know
Speaker 2: we're all fangirling and fanboying in here when you stepped up. Yes,
Speaker 2: how is that process? Uh? That process was something that
Speaker 2: was done in modern times, but we've done this our
Speaker 2: whole life as children we have a guy called Little Ricky,
Speaker 2: and it's his job to go and select the next
Speaker 2: person to go in a deal with Dad. So when
Speaker 2: our previous Jenny fell over, little Ricky came to me
Speaker 2: and said, can you do it? And my job was
Speaker 2: well and truly over by that stage. So you know,
Speaker 2: there's no need for somebody who puts their fingers over
Speaker 2: their nose like a peg when we're no longer smelling Dad.
Speaker 2: So I didn't need to do that job anymore. So
Speaker 2: I was free. I'm free, Yeah, let's do it. Okay,
Speaker 2: what do I need? But rather than saying I'm Jenny,
Speaker 2: I'm the entity currently known as Jenny. So I get
Speaker 2: built every night. So imagine you're going on a trip,
Speaker 2: right you pack a suitcase and you put into the
Speaker 2: suitcase everything you're going to need for your trip. Right, Well,
Speaker 2: we do that every night, only it's not a trip,
Speaker 2: it's what do we need for tomorrow? So I needed
Speaker 2: people that can come and talk to you. I needed
Speaker 2: people that could trauma watch and beep any of us
Speaker 2: if we got into something that would traumatize a listener,
Speaker 2: because I don't want to do that. So we've got
Speaker 2: the boys who are sitting there, Muscles are sitting there
Speaker 2: with his beat button because well, it'd be nice to
Speaker 2: beep out trauma as opposed to beeping out his swear
Speaker 2: word he expresses himself. Let's say that his favorite word
Speaker 2: begins with F and end in a bomb. Right, So,
Speaker 2: and this is where.
Speaker 1: The anger, Yeah at what happened? Yes to little Jennifer.
Speaker 1: Yes results.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Muscles has a multifaceted job. He runs our democracy.
Speaker 2: He's also our lifted, shifted boy, and he also expresses anger.
Speaker 2: And when we were writing the book with Dr George
Speaker 2: Blairworst George actually said, you know, Muscles is the most
Speaker 2: normal of all of them because he knows he should
Speaker 2: not have been treated that way. And Muscles was like,
Speaker 2: holy bleep, I'm the normal.
Speaker 1: Blow me down that well, because also there is this
Speaker 1: with abuse or trauma or mistreatment or violence of children.
Speaker 1: It's internalized, yes, and it's associated with blame and shame.
Speaker 2: Well, the thing is that no matter who you are,
Speaker 2: the house that you grow up with, the family you
Speaker 2: grow up with, you think that's normal. So if you
Speaker 2: have someone who's an alcoholic, you assume that everybody is
Speaker 2: an alcoholic, or you just see alcohol as part of
Speaker 2: the day to day stuff. We just saw what happened
Speaker 2: to us as part of the day to day stuff.
Speaker 2: So it was very difficult for us when we started
Speaker 2: to say, well, hang on a minute, I'm not sure
Speaker 2: this is what's supposed to happen. And we have such
Speaker 2: a contorted and distorted view of what is normal that
Speaker 2: we've actually spent a long time in therapy talking about
Speaker 2: is this normal? Because you know, I am I'm super
Speaker 2: excited about something. Is that normal? Is not normally the
Speaker 2: sentence that you're asking. But when we when we get
Speaker 2: excited about something, we're always checking are we normal? When
Speaker 2: did you realize that we weren't normal? Yeah? When? Or
Speaker 2: what that your home life? To live in that terror
Speaker 2: and torture was not normal? I would say we finally,
Speaker 2: it finally started to percolate through the system in about
Speaker 2: let's see nineteen ninety three, right when he's twenty three? Right?
Speaker 1: And was it in relation to the external world or
Speaker 1: was it an internal process?
Speaker 2: We were studying psychology, oh, and child development. Oh, dear lord,
Speaker 2: child development. I went through that in like a haze,
Speaker 2: going but that didn't happen for me. That didn't happen
Speaker 2: for me. What's going on. There's something very wrong with
Speaker 2: me and yeah, and we went and found what was
Speaker 2: wrong with us. So self diagnosed as having multiple personality
Speaker 2: disorder by the time we were twenty five. But the
Speaker 2: thing is that a lot of stuff happens in abusive households,
Speaker 2: and one of the things that gets missed is the
Speaker 2: abuser sets the narrative. If they're a parent, they're setting
Speaker 2: the narrative for the siblings and their partner. Yeah, and well,
Speaker 2: in my case, both of my parents set the narrative,
Speaker 2: and unfortunately it wasn't particularly groovy. But my siblings treat
Speaker 2: me in accordance to the rules that were set down
Speaker 2: by Mum and dad, and they can't see me as
Speaker 2: I really am because they still have the lenses that
Speaker 2: were given to them in that home and in that family.
Speaker 2: And so that has led to, in many ways, the
Speaker 2: utter devastation of my life. And we really struggle with that.
Speaker 2: Because my parents got a divorce I was fourteen, everything
Speaker 2: should have been hunky dory, but nobody actually looked at
Speaker 2: how do we perceive the children that we are walking
Speaker 2: away with at the divorce and so at the divorce
Speaker 2: it was like, well, we've split from him, right story,
Speaker 2: But it's not because my siblings grew up in a
Speaker 2: world where this stuff happening to me was normal. It
Speaker 2: was a punishment. That's what it was called originally games
Speaker 2: until Judas said his bit, and then it turned to
Speaker 2: punishment overnight.
Speaker 1: But you recognize that in yourself, which I imagine is
Speaker 1: part of making reparations to yourself.
Speaker 2: Eric would tell you that we had a great deal
Speaker 2: of difficulty in therapy about the issue I've just spoken of.
Speaker 2: It's taken us over twenty three years in therapy to
Speaker 2: get to a point where we could say what we've
Speaker 2: just said, and we wanted to put it in the book,
Speaker 2: but we didn't want to cause any difficulties for my
Speaker 2: siblings because I love them both. I love them dearly,
Speaker 2: and we know that's important.
Speaker 1: Him trying to intervene that day that's so significant reminds
Speaker 1: me of it was your sight who said this, where
Speaker 1: he was talking about how often perpetrators of violence or
Speaker 1: sexual abuse will choose a partner that is above all
Speaker 1: else compliant. He said yes, and then he said, because
Speaker 1: then the message to the child little don't matter, yes,
Speaker 1: is that you're not worth saving.
Speaker 2: You don't matter. This is why I sign all my
Speaker 2: autographs with you matter, because survivors need to hear that message.
Speaker 2: And we've all come from a world where we don't matter.
Speaker 2: You know, we have to be honest. It isn't just
Speaker 2: Jenny Hens was abused by Richard Hans. There's a whole
Speaker 2: family around that. There's a whole world that constructed. Yes.
Speaker 2: And when Richard Haines left the family home, he started
Speaker 2: to go to our extended family and he was telling
Speaker 2: them that I was a non liar and that I
Speaker 2: couldn't be believed before I ever knew there was anything
Speaker 2: to tell. So we lost at the divorce. We lost
Speaker 2: my grandparents' uncle, aunt, and cousins on my father's side.
Speaker 2: We lost uncle aunt, two grand grandparents, and two children
Speaker 2: on my mother's side, and so at the divorce, we
Speaker 2: lost everybody. And he went and he made sure that
Speaker 2: these people knew me through the lens that he gave.
Speaker 2: So the abuse doesn't just happened between the perpetrator and
Speaker 2: the victim. It happened within family contexts. And this is
Speaker 2: something that we really need to understand because how can
Speaker 2: we help if we're missing half the dynamic. So because
Speaker 2: you were.
Speaker 1: As a preemptive strike, painted as a liar. He was
Speaker 1: already at that point, must have seen that there was
Speaker 1: something in you coming down the tunnel at him.
Speaker 2: Oh yes, that he didn't say by that stage. By
Speaker 2: the time we got to the end to the divorce,
Speaker 2: Linda was running the show. Right. Okay, So, as Boris
Speaker 2: has just said, I Linda was running the show, and
Speaker 2: I have the greatest contempt for my father. And by
Speaker 2: the time we get to the divorce in nineteen eighty four,
Speaker 2: I'm not shy about telling him. Oh yes, between myself
Speaker 2: and Muscles, we got very aggressive towards the end. We
Speaker 2: we would stand there and goad him, hit me, hit me,
Speaker 2: you know you want to Not because I wanted to
Speaker 2: be hit, but because I knew it was coming at
Speaker 2: some point during the day, and it was easier to
Speaker 2: schedule it on my agenda and not on his, because
Speaker 2: waiting all day for what you know is going to
Speaker 2: come is actually, in our case, it was worse than
Speaker 2: the abuse itself, that leaving in anticipating what do we
Speaker 2: call it anticipatory terror? Right? Yes, So you goed him
Speaker 2: and then he hits you, and he does what he's
Speaker 2: going to do, and it's over with, and you might
Speaker 2: have had that at thirty in the morning instead of
Speaker 2: having to wait till five thirty six o'clock at night
Speaker 2: and be terrorized the whole time. So yeah, he knew
Speaker 2: something was coming. Didn't help that I was. I was
Speaker 2: free with my insults. I informed him that he was
Speaker 2: lower than bats bogies, and yes, I'm the queen of
Speaker 2: the complicated insult. Yes, you told a friend that if
Speaker 2: he if the Ameiba had known prior to dividing that
Speaker 2: he was going to be the outcome, it wouldn't have
Speaker 2: bothered and this poor guy and we were best friends
Speaker 2: at the time, and it was just a passing moment,
Speaker 2: but he was like, wait, what did you just insult me? Yes?
Speaker 2: Did you like it? Did? Your father? Was he smart?
Speaker 2: My father was an electronics engineer and there at the
Speaker 2: beginning of the big computers. So yes, he's work smart.
Speaker 2: But I think that he's not book smart, and he's
Speaker 2: not educated like I am. Never went to university, but
Speaker 2: then in the nineteen sixties in England, you know, not
Speaker 2: everybody was a university bound. But in terms of my
Speaker 2: father being smart, I would say that my father is
Speaker 2: a genius at being a predator. Yes, he's incredibly smart. Oh, yes,
Speaker 2: I mean the story we told you earlier about the
Speaker 2: moving of the mirror. Yes, that is incredibly savvy. How
Speaker 2: would he have explained that or did he not have
Speaker 2: to explain? He didn't have to. He just moved it.
Speaker 2: And I mean when he would hit me, he would
Speaker 2: hit me from the back of the neck to just
Speaker 2: above where the school skirt fell when you sit down.
Speaker 2: So this guy was not just I didn't have bruises
Speaker 2: where anybody could see it. All of my bruises were
Speaker 2: covered by school uniform. And that's deliberate and that's smart.
Speaker 2: Stay with us.
Speaker 1: My conversation with Jenny and some others continues after this break.
Speaker 2: So when.
Speaker 1: When you have undertaken this odyssey, this epic journey of
Speaker 1: starting to tell the truth and finding these people who
Speaker 1: believed you.
Speaker 2: Yes, it was very nice. Oh but it was ten years. Oh.
Speaker 2: Actually we went in nineteen ninety six and we met
Speaker 2: Kim Whitman at the AFP and she believed us. But
Speaker 2: we were not in a position where we were actually
Speaker 2: saying the word we. We were still singular, Jenny, right,
Speaker 2: or we were trying to be singular. When you hiding
Speaker 2: that because.
Speaker 1: Yes, because you knew that it would make people not
Speaker 1: believe you, or because you weren't at the point where
Speaker 1: you could share that.
Speaker 2: So going to the police in the UK, they chose
Speaker 2: not to believe me. They decided that they were going
Speaker 2: to put me on the stand, get me to tell
Speaker 2: my story, and then they were going to charge me
Speaker 2: with perjury, contempt of court, lying under oath or manner
Speaker 2: of delightful things. But I wasn't the one doing that.
Speaker 2: I was the only one in that room telling the truth.
Speaker 2: And I didn't get a chance to say anything because
Speaker 2: he made a plea bargain and the judge said, you've
Speaker 2: pled not guilty to your daughter, Jennifer Haynes, so I
Speaker 2: find you're not guilty, which validated Dad. So after we
Speaker 2: came back from the trial in nineteen ninety seven, we
Speaker 2: fell apart. We really fell apart, because we've just been
Speaker 2: declared liars by the UK. The twenty nineteen trial was
Speaker 2: about the unknown child and protecting the unknown child. It
Speaker 2: was never about us, explain. So I lived in terror
Speaker 2: that my father would find and marry a woman that
Speaker 2: had a child. Oh you see, my father doesn't do
Speaker 2: this random go out and grab a kid. He likes
Speaker 2: to have complete and utter control over he. Yes, he
Speaker 2: did that with me, so it's control. So we lived
Speaker 2: in terror of him finding nice Russian girl with baby
Speaker 2: or a Thai lady with baby. And we refer to
Speaker 2: this as the unknown child our access. Yeah, because once
Speaker 2: he's got them in the house, they're never escaping. The
Speaker 2: only escape out of that house would have been unaliving myself.
Speaker 2: I believe that's the current acceptable term. And my father
Speaker 2: kept telling me that when are you going to do
Speaker 2: the decent thing and unlive yourself? Really, I had that
Speaker 2: for three years, and every time he said it, I
Speaker 2: would just glare at him, and you want me to
Speaker 2: be unlive? I have no intention of becoming unlive just
Speaker 2: to please you.
Speaker 1: So you were pursuing once you had your your army
Speaker 1: of supporters, maybe not a large army, but enough for
Speaker 1: you to be sustained.
Speaker 2: As well as your internal army. Oh yes, so we
Speaker 2: got a recollect it around us. For the two thousand
Speaker 2: and nine disclosures, we already had doctor George Blair West
Speaker 2: and we knew he was in our corner. Yes, when
Speaker 2: we went back to tell him that we were doing
Speaker 2: this he had an expression of joy on his face
Speaker 2: that was just, oh, gives me tingles, just thinking I've
Speaker 2: got pins and needles in my head just thinking about it.
Speaker 2: So we walked in with having in our back pocket,
Speaker 2: not with us on the day, but having in our
Speaker 2: back pocket we had George, and to be honest, that
Speaker 2: was pretty much yet. And then we met Rod Messer
Speaker 2: and he believed us, so he got put in the
Speaker 2: back pocket. And then it went to New South Wales
Speaker 2: and it was handled by the delightful Rachel Lawson and
Speaker 2: she worked on it for a long time. Paul was
Speaker 2: her boss. Okay sot So Rachel and Paul came to
Speaker 2: Queensland to meet with us and meet with me, and
Speaker 2: then we traveled to it to see George and did
Speaker 2: a therapy session in front of the yeah, and that's
Speaker 2: when George was like, okay, well you need to beat
Speaker 2: some of the executive or altars and they did symphony.
Speaker 2: Asked Paul if he shaved his head so the criminals
Speaker 2: couldn't pull on his hair, and he's like, yeah, that's right,
Speaker 2: that's what and Rachel said, well that's what he says.
Speaker 2: So it's you know, there's lots of little tiny moments
Speaker 2: that built a bond. But the thing was, we wrote
Speaker 2: her police statement and we removed from it every hint
Speaker 2: of MPD. So so when Symphony talked about she went
Speaker 2: to find, for example, the assassin or Judas right, and
Speaker 2: she sang for the assassin. We cut that. We had to.
Speaker 2: We don't want to sound like we're loopy, but she
Speaker 2: wanted to talk about the cold, calm American man who
Speaker 2: lives in our heads sometimes and provided her with enough
Speaker 2: get up and go to get up and get the
Speaker 2: hell out of that room before Dad came back, and
Speaker 2: we cut it. So George got the expagated version and
Speaker 2: Paul got the highly edited version because when we initially
Speaker 2: wrote it or the handwriting was different, the spelling was different.
Speaker 2: How many, how many testimonies, how many people, how many altars?
Speaker 2: Two thousand and six, one hundred and eighty two voice everyone?
Speaker 2: Everybody came and even where. So when we talked about
Speaker 2: what he smelled like, everybody that lived in what we
Speaker 2: call the chunnels for blocking his smell, they all testified,
Speaker 2: and we just wrote his smell description was overpowering. But
Speaker 2: that covered everybody from the chunnel. So I call them
Speaker 2: chunnels then known either as the channels or the tunnels,
Speaker 2: which makes us chunels. And so when we wrote the
Speaker 2: student came back and packaged it into you know, consistent framework.
Speaker 2: But we had to remove some very interesting spellings along
Speaker 2: the way symphony symphony, well not that. Well she wants
Speaker 2: to write the word picture, okay, and we got piccute. Ah, yes,
Speaker 2: always it was pecute, and we had to edit it.
Speaker 2: As you can see in the photograph or picture of
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety nineteen eighty, he is so and so, but
Speaker 2: it's always a pecute, right, So we had some relling.
Speaker 2: When the court case got underway, you had to take
Speaker 2: the oath. Oh, that was amazing. The court case was wonderful.
Speaker 2: We all stood in court, we all clustered round the doorway,
Speaker 2: and we took the oath, and we sware to tell
Speaker 2: the truth and nothing about the truth. And your father
Speaker 2: was there, Oh yeah, we swore staring straight at him,
Speaker 2: and how who was staring at him? Who? Symphony was
Speaker 2: in the body at the time, and the rest of
Speaker 2: us were clustered around the doorway just glaring. So every
Speaker 2: single one of us was looking straight through the eyes.
Speaker 2: And at that point fearful or feeling encouraged, emboldened seeking vengeance.
Speaker 2: How was never about vengeance? Never about vengeance. We were
Speaker 2: there to make sure we couldn't do it to anybody else.
Speaker 2: But before we got to swear the oa's, we walked
Speaker 2: into court and waited for him to arrive. Symphony is
Speaker 2: sitting there and she's terrified, and he walks in and
Speaker 2: all we hear is here. I was a big man yesterday,
Speaker 2: but boy, you are to see me now. And once
Speaker 2: that was sung, we were just laughing and we're just
Speaker 2: looking at him, going, well, haven't you shrunk? Oh my god,
Speaker 2: you need a haircut. Oh yeah, he's not scary anymore.
Speaker 2: How was he when he looked at you? Or would
Speaker 2: he not? He didn't look at us on the day
Speaker 2: when he was convicted. When he entered his guilty police,
Speaker 2: there was a lot of media in the room, and
Speaker 2: when the judge left, I walked up to the dock
Speaker 2: where he was standing, and there was all this flurry
Speaker 2: of you know, you're not allowed to get too close,
Speaker 2: and his lawyer was excuse me. And if his lawyer
Speaker 2: had not said that, Dad would never have seen me.
Speaker 2: When he turned to look at his own lawyer there,
Speaker 2: I am standing in front of him, and that's when
Speaker 2: he actually had to see me. And that's when he
Speaker 2: saw that the blow up doll had a bit of
Speaker 2: kick left inner and also you had Sweep. Oh, darling, Sweep. Yes,
Speaker 2: he's come to all the premieres. I was half hoping
Speaker 2: he'd bring Sweep today, Sweeps in the black bag. Oh
Speaker 2: did you bring sweep? Sweep? So Sweep is your sweep?
Speaker 2: Is the glove puppet? Yes? And you're darling. Oh, yes,
Speaker 2: he is the most important toy I've ever heard. He
Speaker 2: is the only toy I've ever loved. From when you
Speaker 2: were we got that sweep, so we've had that since
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy two. And what is Sweep? I saw Sweep
Speaker 2: in a bunny or a teddy or a dog a
Speaker 2: sweeper dog. I couldn't tell. He's not big in Australia, right,
Speaker 2: But in England there was a TV show called The
Speaker 2: Sooty Show. Right, Sweep was Sootie's offside. A Sootie was
Speaker 2: a bear, Sweep as a dog. And they also had
Speaker 2: a character named Sue and she was a polar bear.
Speaker 2: She was black and white. Right, But Sweep was the
Speaker 2: one for you. Oh yes, and your father knew that.
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, oh that darling valiant boy. So this
Speaker 2: is Sweep. Now, when we got sweep, Sweep was to
Speaker 2: shut us up and silence us after a very nasty
Speaker 2: incident in the men's toilets in London. And we had
Speaker 2: actually had a Sweep and we'd lost it when we
Speaker 2: went on a holiday with the family to the Isle
Speaker 2: of Wight. So Dad said, oh, I'll go looking for Sweep,
Speaker 2: knowing full well that there was no way he was
Speaker 2: going to find Sweep in place, no, no, So when
Speaker 2: we didn't find Sweep, I was very upset and I
Speaker 2: also had the need to go to the lady's room. Well,
Speaker 2: we went to the men's room and trigger trigger, trigger, trigger,
Speaker 2: not going to discuss. As a result, when Dad took
Speaker 2: me home, he threw me into the house and told
Speaker 2: Mom to go, oh, go and get her a Sweep.
Speaker 2: So Mum had to find the money to go and
Speaker 2: get a new Sweep on the Monday. And this darling
Speaker 2: character is new Sweep fifty four years old. But this
Speaker 2: is Sweep. And the first thing Dad did when we
Speaker 2: got Sweep was he ripped his squeaker out. Now it
Speaker 2: was a glove puppet goes on your hand. Let's see
Speaker 2: if I can get my hands to work to do
Speaker 2: this today. Okay, yep, hello, sweet Oh. I find him
Speaker 2: so beautiful. We had to get permission from the Corbett family,
Speaker 2: who own the Sooty Show ah to totally put him
Speaker 2: in the documentary. So I said, it's we are Jenny
Speaker 2: starring Sweep. But also the reason that I find him so.
Speaker 1: Affecting is because your father had used him against you
Speaker 1: growing up, because he knew you would do anything to protect.
Speaker 2: Exactly when we would do it. When I saw the
Speaker 2: piece in the documentary that talks about this was, oh
Speaker 2: my god, they're going to think I'm bonker. I do
Speaker 2: know it's a teddy. I do know it's a toy.
Speaker 2: All know, but we all know. For me at four,
Speaker 2: I didn't understand. And he gave me more comfort than
Speaker 2: anybody in my home, and I could tell Sweep my secrets.
Speaker 2: And then Dad used that against me because he'd watched
Speaker 2: me do it.
Speaker 1: Yes, so he'd lure you, blackmail you, et cetera, by
Speaker 1: doing terrible things or threatening things to Sweep so then
Speaker 1: you would have to go.
Speaker 2: He would put Sweep in the window and in order
Speaker 2: to go and collect sweep, I had to put myself
Speaker 2: in harm's way because he was in the shed waiting,
Speaker 2: and he knew that I would come and get sweep
Speaker 2: because at four and at five, although I understood that
Speaker 2: Sweep was a toy, he was also so much more
Speaker 2: than that. And of course you were a little girl.
Speaker 2: I was a little girl. Yeah, he knew what he
Speaker 2: was doing. He was when it comes to being a perpetrator.
Speaker 2: My dad is a genius.
Speaker 1: And you know, however, and this is why I find
Speaker 1: sweep so significant. When you're in court, Oh yes, tell me,
Speaker 1: tell me what happened or what was happening prior.
Speaker 2: Okay, so with how the case was going, Oh, the
Speaker 2: case took forever, but we did get we how do
Speaker 2: I put this? Paul was working on the case as
Speaker 2: a police officer. Yes, then once he'd done his investigation,
Speaker 2: we then had to go and extradite Dad from the UK,
Speaker 2: which was highly amusing. His arrogance did him no favors
Speaker 2: that day. He was so he was convinced that he
Speaker 2: could just speak to somebody and sort this mess out
Speaker 2: and he'd be back on the next train home. Because
Speaker 2: you know, this is nothing you know, to quote it's
Speaker 2: a slap and a tickle and the odd faculty, Why
Speaker 2: are you making such a fuss?
Speaker 3: Did he?
Speaker 2: That was something I was asked by somebody close to
Speaker 2: the family. How you can even dismiss it like that,
Speaker 2: I don't know, but that sentence was highly damaging. So
Speaker 2: it was, you know, drop the charges, send him back home. Well,
Speaker 2: the extradition team sent all the paperwork to London. We
Speaker 2: have some very high powers orographs on our documents, Theresa
Speaker 2: May and Boris Johnson, because they both ended up Home
Speaker 2: Secretary around the time of our paperwork was going through.
Speaker 2: And Dad goes into court and he's been told, you know,
Speaker 2: he's had the duty solicitor, he's had the extradition duty solicitor.
Speaker 2: He said, god knows how much advice you don't agree
Speaker 2: to be extradited. So it's like it goes a bit
Speaker 2: like this. Can you confirm you are Richard John Haynes, Yes,
Speaker 2: your date of birth? Yes, you reside yes? Yes. Do
Speaker 2: you understand your being what you're here for? Yes? And
Speaker 2: he keeps going in this vein for quite some time,
Speaker 2: and then they say do you agree to being extraditing? Yes? Yes, yes,
Speaker 2: thank you mister Haynes, you're romanded in custody.
Speaker 3: What I would have killed to be in the room
Speaker 3: for that, but instead you were in the room so
Speaker 3: for Yeah, So we got him, we got him extradited,
Speaker 3: and then he comes to Australia and now two years
Speaker 3: later we're up here in court.
Speaker 2: Now that was hard. So we get him into court.
Speaker 2: Symphony starts testifying and then the prosecution asks, do you
Speaker 2: have a special teddy? So she produces Sweep, puts him
Speaker 2: on her hand and waves at the judge. Because she's
Speaker 2: a polite little girl, so she does exactly what we
Speaker 2: just did to you. A moment ago. Let's see if
Speaker 2: I get the fingers in no Ah, and Dad rears
Speaker 2: back in the dock so hard that there's an audible
Speaker 2: thump as he hit the wall behind him. He was
Speaker 2: not prepared for Sweep, And so in that moment, everybody
Speaker 2: in that courtroom knew I was telling the truth, because
Speaker 2: if I was telling lies, Dad would not have had
Speaker 2: that reaction. And so Sweep convicted Richard Haynes voicelessly, and
Speaker 2: he changed his plea yes, and this is guilty. He
Speaker 2: changed his plea to guilty and have to sep yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: he couldn't handle. He only did an hour and forty
Speaker 2: five minutes of Symphony's testimony, and then he rolled over
Speaker 2: and said he changed his plea, but again, Dad likes
Speaker 2: to play, and so he was going to change his plea,
Speaker 2: but he wanted to drag it all out. So the
Speaker 2: prosecution asked me to come into the office and they
Speaker 2: asked me to sit down with them and said, what
Speaker 2: of the chargers you like him to say it to
Speaker 2: plead guilty to. So they're trying to Yeah, this is
Speaker 2: difficult because we'd all we'd started at a thousand charges.
Speaker 2: Then we were asked to give what were termed the
Speaker 2: non negotiables, the things that Dad was going to plead
Speaker 2: guilty to it. So the eighty five things he went
Speaker 2: into court with were already the non negotiables or you're
Speaker 2: still being asked to negotiating. Yes, Symphony referred to this
Speaker 2: as the non negotiables. I don't know where the goat
Speaker 2: fits in, but we did the non negotiables, and it
Speaker 2: was difficult because they wanted to make it a plea
Speaker 2: that he would see as in his favor, so he
Speaker 2: would agree to it. But it was very hard to
Speaker 2: see those numbers just keep dropping, so he the prosecution.
Speaker 2: This was the moment where I started to feel empowered.
Speaker 2: So suddenly it was what do you want? And we
Speaker 2: wanted three hundred and sixty seven, but we were faced
Speaker 2: with you need to get it down to a reasonable number.
Speaker 2: And I'm thinking, and three hundred and sixty seven isn't reasonable.
Speaker 2: How many times did he attack me? How many thousands
Speaker 2: of times? And don't forget there are hundreds of other
Speaker 2: attacks that aren't in that statement because we could not
Speaker 2: particularize when they happened. We knew what happened, but we
Speaker 2: couldn't tell you whether it was nineteen seventy seven eight.
Speaker 2: So if we couldn't find a hook to hang it on,
Speaker 2: we had to cut it already. And each one of
Speaker 2: those is not just a date to you, no, And
Speaker 2: it was very difficult. We had to choose, and we
Speaker 2: knew that there were people who weren't going to get hurt.
Speaker 2: We couldn't get him to plead guilty to everything, but
Speaker 2: we got twenty five, including a rape in nineteen eighty
Speaker 2: that we nominated as the one that led to baby Gemma,
Speaker 2: and he got fifteen and a half years in prison
Speaker 2: for that rape alone, and that made us feel better.
Speaker 2: Not brilliant, but better.
Speaker 1: So we we.
Speaker 2: Got him to plead guilty to twenty five things, and
Speaker 2: then he took us for a further sixteen things to
Speaker 2: be taken into account at sentencing, so forty one out
Speaker 2: of eighty five. And we're like, he's going to be
Speaker 2: out in five seconds, and we're gonna have to do
Speaker 2: this again. And so instead of the auto going right,
Speaker 2: we've testified he's played guilty, let's interact. No, no, no,
Speaker 2: we might need to do this again, and we might
Speaker 2: need to be doing this for the rest of our lives.
Speaker 2: So hang around, guys. But we we chose what he
Speaker 2: pled guilty to. We then helped compile from our statement
Speaker 2: the statement of a greed fact. Now I never signed it,
Speaker 2: but he was supposed to. But you know, why do
Speaker 2: what you're told.
Speaker 1: So he.
Speaker 2: I got to read and double check the Statement of
Speaker 2: a greed fact and then the it was the first
Speaker 2: of March. Pretty sure it's the first of March twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2: He walks into court and he pleads guilty, and it
Speaker 2: was whispered and Judge Haggard had to keep saying, can
Speaker 2: we excuse me? Can you speak up? Oh yeah, he
Speaker 2: was not guilty, and then it was guilty. We didn't
Speaker 2: like that at all, loud as a yell to you though,
Speaker 2: So that was incredible for us. And then he was
Speaker 2: sentenced to forty yes, five forty five years. Wow. Wow.
Speaker 2: There's one step that we messed that I'd like to
Speaker 2: bring in is we actually got to do a victim
Speaker 2: impact statement and we decided, you know, we wrote it
Speaker 2: ready to go, seventeen pages worth, and it's been very
Speaker 2: carefully selected. And we go into court ready to talk
Speaker 2: to talk to the judge and then read out our statement.
Speaker 2: And he's supposed to be sentenced on this day, but
Speaker 2: he's not had his psych evaluations. So the sixty minutes
Speaker 2: documentary went live the weekend before he was due to
Speaker 2: be sentenced. And then oh and then it all. He
Speaker 2: wasn't ready because well you know, m but thirty three
Speaker 2: altars stormed into that room, ready to testify and ready
Speaker 2: to read their bits of the victim impact statement. And
Speaker 2: according to Tracy, it was very powerful. My friend Tracy
Speaker 2: was he's with me tonight. I mean, Tracy has a
Speaker 2: physical form my apologize. I walked into court on judgment
Speaker 2: day with Tracy McDermott, my friend from Melbourne who is
Speaker 2: with me today. She's been with me for sixteen years.
Speaker 2: When I walked into court, Tracy walked with me. When
Speaker 2: we were getting the process, it was Tracy who we
Speaker 2: went to and cried over her shoulders. And when the
Speaker 2: process took forever, it was Tracy that we talked to.
Speaker 2: Tracy has been our most staunch friend through the whole process.
Speaker 2: That's why she's here today because we actually got to
Speaker 2: see her and she was our special guest at the
Speaker 2: screening last night. Jenny Haynes, you are loved by very
Speaker 2: many people. Thank you, Thank you. I'm beginning to understand
Speaker 2: that I'm reading all the love that I'm getting online,
Speaker 2: which is even two thousand and Oh. Yes, you're nice, Jenny.
Speaker 2: Jenny saved Jenny.
Speaker 1: A line from George, your pschiatrist, said that Jenny saved Jenny.
Speaker 2: I think the judge was incredible in that she had
Speaker 2: read the material. She knew that we were using music
Speaker 2: as music lyrics as a way to communicate, and she
Speaker 2: gave Dad music. Forty five years prison term is forty
Speaker 2: five revs. A minute for a single thirty three and
Speaker 2: a third is an LP, a long playing record. She
Speaker 2: deliberately gave him music, and she set us free. She
Speaker 2: gave Dad the rest of his life in prison, which
Speaker 2: he's not enjoying. By the way, of course, that makes
Speaker 2: me sus said, oh yeah, but she gave me my
Speaker 2: life back, and I've gone and I've made as much
Speaker 2: of it as I possibly can. Sure, we've got disabilities
Speaker 2: and mobility issues and pain issues and all the consequences
Speaker 2: of the happening to me, you know, all those delightful
Speaker 2: things that people don't think about when they think about abuse.
Speaker 2: I think abuse, Oh, well, you know that happens. And
Speaker 2: it's over now. Yes, No, I've got a colost to
Speaker 2: me for the rest of my life. It's not over yet.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, my pleasure for your sharing your.
Speaker 1: Story and for your valiance. Thank you, and for your
Speaker 1: humor and for your grace and for your courage.
Speaker 2: Thank you. It's I did not expect this, not at all.
Speaker 2: I just I waive my right to anonymity so he
Speaker 2: would be Richard John Haynes and not a seventy four
Speaker 2: year old man. That's as far as I thought. Yes,
Speaker 2: he never thought of this. I never envisaged this, and
Speaker 2: now we have the platform, the space to validate other
Speaker 2: people who have MPDDD other systems, and in doing the premierees,
Speaker 2: we've met some incredibly courageous people who've come to tell
Speaker 2: me I'm a system and it's beautiful. I walked into
Speaker 2: court in two thousand and nine being the only person
Speaker 2: in my world that had did and I hid it
Speaker 2: from so many people. And I'm hiding it now. And
Speaker 2: I'm going to get on the flight to Brisbane this
Speaker 2: afternoon having met forty systems, forty over the last week,
Speaker 2: and how did child? And they're just the ones that
Speaker 2: spoke to me. That doesn't include these systems that were
Speaker 2: in that in those screenings not saying anything to me.
Speaker 2: And I've had the opportunity to validate them all and
Speaker 2: say exactly what I'm going to say. I believe you,
Speaker 2: I see you. What happened to you is real, what
Speaker 2: happened to you matters, and above all, you matter. I
Speaker 2: see you, I love you.
Speaker 4: You matter, beautiful, Thank you, thank you. Oh, I'm going
Speaker 4: to hug you if I may, you may all of it.
Speaker 2: All of you. Yes, I don't want to beat up that.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: I have thought about this conversation a lot since we
Speaker 1: recorded it, not just because of the scale of what
Speaker 1: Jenny Haynes survived, but because of the humanity she brings
Speaker 1: to talking about it and the extraordinary compassion she holds
Speaker 1: for every part.
Speaker 2: Of herself that helped her survive.
Speaker 1: After sitting across from Jenny, I can honestly say she's
Speaker 1: one of the most remarkable people I've ever met. Her
Speaker 1: story is now the subject of the documentary We Are
Speaker 1: Jenny on SBS. We've put details in the show notes
Speaker 1: as well as resources. If this episode brought anything up
Speaker 1: for you, support is available, and if you'd like to
Speaker 1: hear more conversations like this one, follow no Filter wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. I'm Kate Lainebrook, and I'll be
Speaker 1: back next Monday with another incredible conversation