WEBVTT - The Belle Gibson Fallout & Armie's 'D*ckhead Defence' 0:00:10.622 --> 0:00:15.022 You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Muma Mia acknowledges 0:00:15.062 --> 0:00:18.062 the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 0:00:18.102 --> 0:00:22.222 is recorded on. Are you kidding? It's not about the 0:00:22.222 --> 0:00:24.982 mainstream media. Who cares in twenty twenty five, who's on 0:00:25.021 --> 0:00:28.702 the Today Show or on sixty minutes. It's about TikTok 0:00:28.822 --> 0:00:32.942 and Instagram, and there is an algorithm deciding who gets 0:00:32.982 --> 0:00:35.742 platformed and who goes viral on those. 0:00:35.942 --> 0:00:38.582 And now, by the way, those platforms are taking away 0:00:38.622 --> 0:00:41.222 fact checking and are taking away a lot of the 0:00:41.302 --> 0:00:44.582 layers of authority that they put in place during the 0:00:44.622 --> 0:00:46.742 pandemic to make sure there wasn't misinformation. 0:00:52.822 --> 0:00:55.742 Hello, and welcome to Mummy. Are out loud what women 0:00:55.822 --> 0:00:59.582 are talking about on Monday, the seventeenth of February. I 0:00:59.622 --> 0:01:02.862 am Jesse Stevens, I'm mea Friedman, and we've got Amelia 0:01:03.062 --> 0:01:06.542 Lester filling in for Holly today. Amelia introduced herself in 0:01:06.581 --> 0:01:07.461 ten seconds or less. 0:01:07.462 --> 0:01:10.422 Hello, I'm a friend of Mia Friedman. I'm an editor 0:01:10.422 --> 0:01:13.742 at Foreign Policy Magazine and I'm an Australian American who 0:01:13.782 --> 0:01:14.622 lives in Sydney. 0:01:14.742 --> 0:01:17.502 I think you should have led with the second part. 0:01:17.742 --> 0:01:19.902 I know the most important thing in my life is 0:01:19.902 --> 0:01:21.102 that I'm a friend of the agreement. 0:01:21.742 --> 0:01:26.382 She's also tertiary educated, which means I now feel officially outnumbered. 0:01:25.862 --> 0:01:28.262 In terms of the letterboard. You are last. And on 0:01:28.302 --> 0:01:32.062 the Show Today last week, Louis Theroux interviewed Armie Hammer, 0:01:32.222 --> 0:01:36.182 who launched into an impassioned dickhead defense. What is the 0:01:36.222 --> 0:01:40.022 dickhead defense and did it work? Plus the real life 0:01:40.102 --> 0:01:43.022 characters from Apple Side of Vinegar are coming forward with 0:01:43.142 --> 0:01:47.022 their own accounts. Do they have a point? And could 0:01:47.062 --> 0:01:51.302 the Bell Gibson spectacle happen today? And apparently the whole 0:01:51.342 --> 0:01:54.742 generation thing is a myth, but we are not all convinced. 0:01:55.342 --> 0:01:58.262 But first, in case you missed it, one of Australia's 0:01:58.302 --> 0:02:02.182 most successful business women, Kayla Itsines, who is a fitness 0:02:02.222 --> 0:02:06.422 influencer with an app called Sweat, which she sold for one 0:02:06.462 --> 0:02:09.142 hundred and fifty million dollars and then bought back for 0:02:09.181 --> 0:02:12.342 a lot less. She posted a TikTok video last week 0:02:12.382 --> 0:02:15.982 calling out what she sees as excessive sexualization in the 0:02:15.982 --> 0:02:19.902 fitness industry. Ladies, put your bums away, She essentially said, 0:02:20.181 --> 0:02:23.941 stop filming those videos up your bum because I don't 0:02:23.942 --> 0:02:26.102 want to see that. While I'm having breakfast. That's literally 0:02:26.102 --> 0:02:28.022 what she said. We can't play you a grab of 0:02:28.062 --> 0:02:31.462 it because she has since taken it down after a 0:02:31.502 --> 0:02:34.342 lot of people were very unhappy and called her out 0:02:34.382 --> 0:02:36.621 for being a hypocrite because. 0:02:37.222 --> 0:02:41.462 Hasn't she been selling bikini body literally the name bikini 0:02:41.502 --> 0:02:43.102 body plans for years and. 0:02:43.062 --> 0:02:46.422 Years She has, indeed, and at the end of this video, 0:02:46.502 --> 0:02:48.542 when am I missing well the part where I said 0:02:48.582 --> 0:02:50.342 she was a businesswoman. At the end of this video, 0:02:50.502 --> 0:02:53.822 she did do a shout out to her own glutes 0:02:53.902 --> 0:02:57.462 program and say that it was essentially if people didn't 0:02:57.462 --> 0:03:00.542 want to look up bums but still wanted to have 0:03:01.022 --> 0:03:03.302 amazing glutes. As she said, she said, she's got a 0:03:03.342 --> 0:03:07.341 glutes program and if they followed her program then they 0:03:07.342 --> 0:03:12.822 could just see more modest bottoms and less Still before 0:03:13.502 --> 0:03:16.822 what she was saying, Jesse, I'm not really across Kayla 0:03:16.902 --> 0:03:19.262 It scenes, although I do know that this is the 0:03:19.302 --> 0:03:21.901 reason we launched move because we wanted people to have 0:03:22.181 --> 0:03:25.142 an option of it not being so appearance focused. 0:03:25.302 --> 0:03:28.502 I get served a lot of fitness content on Instagram 0:03:28.542 --> 0:03:31.502 and TikTok, and I have been served Kayla It scenes 0:03:31.782 --> 0:03:34.662 bick anybody for ten years I'm not sure if she 0:03:34.662 --> 0:03:37.942 does it anymore, but I distinctly remember the beginning of 0:03:38.022 --> 0:03:40.662 sort of the fitness industry. The model was his or 0:03:40.662 --> 0:03:43.022 before and after, and I'm talking ten a day before 0:03:43.062 --> 0:03:43.422 and after. 0:03:43.622 --> 0:03:45.622 Wow, you have a lot of body after baby stuff. 0:03:45.742 --> 0:03:48.782 Yes, yes, women's bodies, and Kayla is known. I would 0:03:48.822 --> 0:03:51.822 say that the appearance of her abdominals is central to 0:03:52.142 --> 0:03:55.182 her marketing. It's really important because you know, it's the 0:03:55.222 --> 0:03:58.502 illusion of fitness or it makes people it's shorthand to go. 0:03:58.542 --> 0:04:01.222 I'm really in the same way that Sam Wood often 0:04:01.262 --> 0:04:04.102 doesn't have a shirt on. I think that fitness is 0:04:04.142 --> 0:04:06.862 seen as something very visual. So when I heard her 0:04:06.902 --> 0:04:10.742 talking about the sexualization, I thought, we're all playing the 0:04:10.782 --> 0:04:13.542 same game here, which is that the algorithm of both 0:04:13.622 --> 0:04:15.902 is we need attention in order to get people to 0:04:16.262 --> 0:04:17.342 buy our products. 0:04:17.421 --> 0:04:20.261 So it's like she's more female gaze, and say the 0:04:20.342 --> 0:04:23.262 Tammy Hembrowse who have a lot of shots of their 0:04:23.262 --> 0:04:26.422 bum filmed in those low angles. She talks a lot 0:04:26.421 --> 0:04:29.541 about low angles, which is just a different vibe. It's 0:04:29.582 --> 0:04:30.661 more perhaps male gazing. 0:04:30.821 --> 0:04:32.462 Yeah, I don't necessarily have a problem with it, and 0:04:32.501 --> 0:04:34.301 I'm not sure that it is male gaze because I 0:04:34.301 --> 0:04:36.061 get served a lot of glute content because I have 0:04:36.142 --> 0:04:38.902 issues activating my glutes is a personal issue that I have, 0:04:38.941 --> 0:04:41.142 and I say, TikTok, help me with my glute exercises. 0:04:41.181 --> 0:04:42.942 Yeah, because your legs just connect straight to your. 0:04:42.821 --> 0:04:45.941 Bag exactly, And so what I need is to And 0:04:45.981 --> 0:04:48.461 this is my defense of the form fitting because I 0:04:48.501 --> 0:04:50.222 know what leggings she's talking about. 0:04:51.061 --> 0:04:53.581 Was she talking about leggings or was she talking about angles? 0:04:54.061 --> 0:04:58.421 Angles? But she's saying, you can really see the glute being. 0:04:58.621 --> 0:05:00.742 Act But is that maybe sometimes because the glute is 0:05:00.782 --> 0:05:01.382 an implant. 0:05:01.662 --> 0:05:03.421 Well that's a whole other story. 0:05:03.662 --> 0:05:06.701 Aren't you just saying then that abs are female gaze 0:05:06.782 --> 0:05:09.141 coded and glutes are male gaze coded. 0:05:09.262 --> 0:05:12.821 See, I think that the gaze is just everyone's gaze. 0:05:12.981 --> 0:05:14.901 I think that now that we're just looking at the 0:05:14.902 --> 0:05:16.741 same I mean, i'd be interested to see the stats 0:05:16.741 --> 0:05:20.262 about who's following who, But I'm a woman who's looking 0:05:20.301 --> 0:05:23.902 at a lot of glute centered content. And I think 0:05:23.981 --> 0:05:28.022 that the reason we have such form hugging clothing in 0:05:28.181 --> 0:05:30.541 exercise is often because there is a focus on form. 0:05:30.541 --> 0:05:32.782 There's a focus on this is how you correctly do 0:05:32.821 --> 0:05:35.821 the pilates, move the weights for the yoga thing, which 0:05:35.861 --> 0:05:37.582 is what you're being for because you don't want to 0:05:37.582 --> 0:05:40.022 get injured. So you can't have someone dressed as an 0:05:40.022 --> 0:05:43.941 Amish person doing a squat because I don't know how 0:05:43.941 --> 0:05:44.781 your backs arching. 0:05:44.941 --> 0:05:49.101 Among fitness influences, the trend used to be for a 0:05:49.181 --> 0:05:53.421 much slimmer body. Kayla, it seems is very much. She's 0:05:53.541 --> 0:05:56.941 very slim, whereas some of the other fitness influencers that 0:05:57.022 --> 0:06:00.861 do the booty content, well they've just got really big booties. Yeah, 0:06:00.902 --> 0:06:04.741 so there's a more muscular, a more big bottomed. And 0:06:04.981 --> 0:06:07.382 the criticisms that she obviously took to heart because she 0:06:07.421 --> 0:06:10.501 took it down, were that she was hyper critical because 0:06:10.821 --> 0:06:13.741 she flaunted her body, as the Daily Mail would say, 0:06:14.101 --> 0:06:16.981 and why is she criticizing other women for how they 0:06:17.022 --> 0:06:18.381 want to portray their own bodies. 0:06:19.222 --> 0:06:24.021 Last week, documentarian and podcast Louis Thuru released a podcast 0:06:24.061 --> 0:06:27.622 episode with actor Armie Hammer that has since gone viral 0:06:28.262 --> 0:06:32.301 due to the palpable tension that emerged between the two men. 0:06:32.981 --> 0:06:36.582 You might have seen this clip circulating on social media. 0:06:36.662 --> 0:06:39.381 Did you have anything else you wanted to say? I 0:06:39.381 --> 0:06:40.461 should know. 0:06:40.501 --> 0:06:43.021 I mean, I don't love the way the interview started. 0:06:43.262 --> 0:06:46.941 Just to be perfectly honest, I'm not crazy about drudging 0:06:47.061 --> 0:06:49.422 up all of this stuff because for me, a lot 0:06:49.421 --> 0:06:52.582 of these issues have been resolved, whether it be legally 0:06:53.022 --> 0:06:55.942 or within myself, and I feel like a lot of 0:06:55.981 --> 0:07:00.342 those waters have settled. I think doing things like that 0:07:00.621 --> 0:07:05.101 stirs up the water again unnecessarily. It definitely wasn't my 0:07:05.181 --> 0:07:08.941 favorite beginning. I'm glad we moved past that and got 0:07:08.981 --> 0:07:11.302 to a place where we could have a civil, normal 0:07:11.381 --> 0:07:14.982 conversation like that felt good. But drudging up all that stuff, like, 0:07:15.302 --> 0:07:15.862 I don't love it. 0:07:16.182 --> 0:07:18.302 I hear you and I sense that during the chat. 0:07:18.422 --> 0:07:21.182 I think in the court of public opinion, the jury 0:07:21.222 --> 0:07:22.142 is still out. 0:07:22.342 --> 0:07:25.062 But my thing now is like the court of public opinion. Like, 0:07:26.662 --> 0:07:29.662 pick anything that the court of public opinion has an 0:07:29.702 --> 0:07:32.422 opinion on, and there's a very good chance that they 0:07:32.422 --> 0:07:35.022 will not be fully informed. There's a very good chance 0:07:35.062 --> 0:07:36.782 they don't have the full story, and there's also a 0:07:36.862 --> 0:07:38.222 very good chance that they're probably wrong. 0:07:38.582 --> 0:07:40.941 I sent this around when I saw it first thing 0:07:41.222 --> 0:07:44.261 last week and went, that is the single best podcast 0:07:44.302 --> 0:07:47.302 trailer I have ever seen. Because I saw that when 0:07:47.302 --> 0:07:49.782 I need to listen to it immediately let's take a 0:07:49.782 --> 0:07:52.701 few steps backwards. Because Armie Hammer, who you might know 0:07:52.941 --> 0:07:56.261 as the Winklevoss Twins in the Social network or he 0:07:56.782 --> 0:07:58.982 was the lead in Call Me by Your Name opposite 0:07:59.022 --> 0:08:04.062 Timothy Shallamy, he was accused of sexual emotional and physical assault, rape, 0:08:04.102 --> 0:08:08.062 and cannibalistic fantasies in early twenty twenty one. Text messages 0:08:08.062 --> 0:08:10.422 were published at the time that read I'm one hundred 0:08:10.422 --> 0:08:13.302 percent accnnibal. He expressed a desire to cut off a 0:08:13.302 --> 0:08:16.142 piece of his partner and eat it, and another text 0:08:16.262 --> 0:08:19.742 expressed wanting to hold a partner down and rape her. 0:08:20.302 --> 0:08:22.782 Hamma maintained that these were taken out of context and 0:08:22.862 --> 0:08:26.382 were part of a sexually charged and consensual back and forth. 0:08:26.982 --> 0:08:30.141 The charges against him were eventually dropped in twenty twenty three, 0:08:30.381 --> 0:08:34.982 citing insufficient evidence. Hamma has since spoken about losing every 0:08:35.062 --> 0:08:37.582 job he had, he was dropped by his agent, he 0:08:37.662 --> 0:08:40.942 was shunned by friends, and he's talked about the emotional 0:08:40.942 --> 0:08:44.022 toll that the allegations took on him. And now in 0:08:44.062 --> 0:08:47.702 twenty twenty five, he is sitting opposite Louis and I'm 0:08:47.702 --> 0:08:49.542 going to give you the headlines from the interview. If 0:08:49.542 --> 0:08:50.342 you haven't listened. 0:08:50.422 --> 0:08:52.582 Amy has a podcast of his own, doesn't he does? 0:08:52.702 --> 0:08:53.582 Mum he does? 0:08:53.862 --> 0:08:56.342 Yeah, released it last year. Remember his mum bought him 0:08:56.342 --> 0:08:56.942 a phaseectomy. 0:08:57.142 --> 0:08:59.902 That was so kind. Do you think he's now just 0:09:00.462 --> 0:09:02.662 a lot of people have been talking about he's coming back, 0:09:02.742 --> 0:09:06.182 and there's no such thing as cancelation. I imagine he's 0:09:06.182 --> 0:09:09.062 been on peas Morgan. Do you think he just is like, 0:09:09.582 --> 0:09:11.102 I've just got to talk about it. I'm just going 0:09:11.182 --> 0:09:12.982 to own it. I'm going to lean into it, and 0:09:13.022 --> 0:09:14.902 I'm going to talk about it until it's not interesting 0:09:14.942 --> 0:09:15.742 to people anymore. 0:09:15.982 --> 0:09:16.222 Yeah. 0:09:16.542 --> 0:09:18.742 I think so. I think he probably had two choices. 0:09:18.862 --> 0:09:21.342 I mean, he did retreat for a significant period of time, 0:09:21.902 --> 0:09:23.782 But the biggest thing is in a moment, he's going 0:09:23.822 --> 0:09:26.062 to have movies to promote, so he can't just come out. 0:09:26.102 --> 0:09:28.422 And I think when he promotes the movies, he probably 0:09:28.462 --> 0:09:29.342 wants to promote the movie. 0:09:29.502 --> 0:09:30.262 So he's working again. 0:09:30.342 --> 0:09:31.182 Yeah. Is he getting cars? 0:09:31.342 --> 0:09:31.502 Yeah? 0:09:31.582 --> 0:09:33.062 Yeah, he said he's getting offers every day. 0:09:33.182 --> 0:09:34.062 Okay, interesting. 0:09:34.142 --> 0:09:36.862 So these were the headlines from the interview. He admitted 0:09:36.902 --> 0:09:39.062 to having an affair while still married to his wife, 0:09:39.102 --> 0:09:41.622 but said that people in happy marriages don't have affairs. 0:09:42.342 --> 0:09:45.382 He said only one side of the text. Conversations were leaked, 0:09:45.542 --> 0:09:48.062 meaning that they would devoid of context. He talked about 0:09:48.062 --> 0:09:51.662 intergenerational trauma. His grandfather was accused of killing a man 0:09:51.782 --> 0:09:54.902 of sexually abusing his daughter. There's a documentary called The 0:09:54.902 --> 0:09:58.022 House of Hammer about the history of the family. He 0:09:58.102 --> 0:10:00.702 says the scandal was the greatest thing that ever happened 0:10:00.702 --> 0:10:03.062 to him. It forced him to get sober. He didn't 0:10:03.102 --> 0:10:06.742 recognize who he had become, and he denies, ultimately that 0:10:06.822 --> 0:10:10.822 he was guilty of anything that resembled a crime. Ultimately, 0:10:11.102 --> 0:10:14.542 he used what hollywould call the dickhead defense. He was 0:10:14.582 --> 0:10:18.302 a bad person, radicalized by fame and money and pornography 0:10:18.622 --> 0:10:21.502 and access to anything he wanted All the time, he 0:10:21.582 --> 0:10:26.102 treated people badly, women his wife. He says that like Icarus, 0:10:26.142 --> 0:10:28.462 he flew too close to the sun, but he was 0:10:28.502 --> 0:10:32.782 not guilty of abuse. Maya does the dickhead defense work. 0:10:33.302 --> 0:10:35.502 I thought it was a really interesting interview to listen to. 0:10:35.742 --> 0:10:39.262 I'm not all the way through it, but I think 0:10:40.142 --> 0:10:45.662 that when you call yourself a dickhead, you show two things. Firstly, 0:10:46.582 --> 0:10:52.462 there's humility in there, and secondly, there's self awareness. And 0:10:52.502 --> 0:10:55.942 I think implicit in that is an apology of sorts, 0:10:56.262 --> 0:10:59.302 because what we know is that no matter what you do, 0:11:00.182 --> 0:11:05.062 however you apologize, will be critiqued and found wanting by 0:11:05.302 --> 0:11:08.782 the apology police. And the other time that I can 0:11:08.822 --> 0:11:11.422 think that this really really worked. Although the two things 0:11:11.462 --> 0:11:14.662 aren't comparable. But Karl Stefanovic a number of years ago 0:11:15.062 --> 0:11:19.262 used an offensive term for a marginalized group of people 0:11:19.342 --> 0:11:21.822 and there was a big backlash about it, and the 0:11:21.862 --> 0:11:25.142 next day on the Today Show he said, I was 0:11:25.142 --> 0:11:27.702 a tool. I really shouldn't have used that word. Now 0:11:27.702 --> 0:11:31.422 I understand, I won't use it again. And by calling 0:11:31.502 --> 0:11:35.502 himself out so strongly, he sort of left no room 0:11:35.662 --> 0:11:38.222 for people to come at him anymore. And it worked. 0:11:38.462 --> 0:11:39.542 Have you ever seen a woman do it? 0:11:39.822 --> 0:11:40.062 Never? 0:11:40.142 --> 0:11:40.302 Oh? 0:11:40.342 --> 0:11:41.982 God, no, I don't think a woman can use it 0:11:41.982 --> 0:11:44.662 acad defense Amelia, do you think it works well. 0:11:44.702 --> 0:11:47.422 One thing that I thought was so interesting about that grab, 0:11:47.702 --> 0:11:50.582 which I assume was the most interesting part of the interview, 0:11:51.302 --> 0:11:54.622 is that it reminded me of this phenomenon that doctors 0:11:54.662 --> 0:11:56.622 describe as the doorstop question. 0:11:57.142 --> 0:11:57.902 Oh have you heard of that? 0:11:58.742 --> 0:12:01.022 So apparently when you go and see the doctor, they 0:12:01.142 --> 0:12:03.302 know that you're basically going to sort of fluff your 0:12:03.302 --> 0:12:07.182 way through the actual consultation, and then as you stand 0:12:07.262 --> 0:12:10.142 up on the way out, you go just one other thing, 0:12:10.502 --> 0:12:13.222 and then that often turns out to be the thing 0:12:13.262 --> 0:12:15.102 that is wrong with you, or you know, you might 0:12:15.142 --> 0:12:16.982 have a mole that you That's how I almost get 0:12:17.022 --> 0:12:17.702 cancer removed. 0:12:17.822 --> 0:12:20.342 We're standing and walking out of the room going actually while. 0:12:20.222 --> 0:12:24.022 I'm here, doorstop question Mia. In No Filter interviews, would 0:12:24.022 --> 0:12:26.942 you always ask people is there anything else you want 0:12:26.982 --> 0:12:29.381 to say? That kind of like cleaning up question in 0:12:29.462 --> 0:12:29.662 the air? 0:12:29.822 --> 0:12:33.622 Never? I never ever would. Maybe I probably should have. 0:12:34.262 --> 0:12:35.982 That's really I think it's a little. 0:12:35.742 --> 0:12:38.342 Bit of a lifetack in general, because if you're having 0:12:38.342 --> 0:12:41.102 a conversation with someone, it takes time to warm up 0:12:41.142 --> 0:12:44.262 to the actual meat of it. I think, sorry, that 0:12:44.382 --> 0:12:46.022 was bad given the cannibal discussion. 0:12:46.102 --> 0:12:50.262 I think that that's specific to this type of interview 0:12:50.462 --> 0:12:53.582 right because Louis, I think this is season four or 0:12:53.622 --> 0:12:56.062 season five of his podcast, and it has in terms 0:12:56.102 --> 0:12:58.702 of charting, it's not really been working. I listened to 0:12:58.742 --> 0:13:01.222 a few of them and I stopped because I don't 0:13:01.262 --> 0:13:03.342 think Louis Threux is a celebrity interviewer. 0:13:03.422 --> 0:13:03.702 He's not. 0:13:04.422 --> 0:13:05.262 It's not where he's best. 0:13:05.462 --> 0:13:08.262 He's best talking to weird people about weird thing. 0:13:08.382 --> 0:13:12.702 He is a subculture journalist, like that's where he got 0:13:13.102 --> 0:13:18.022 his experience, and he is so skilled at sitting with 0:13:18.062 --> 0:13:22.302 someone and giving them space and playing the idiot. 0:13:22.542 --> 0:13:25.582 And but it's also not just about him. It's celebrities 0:13:25.582 --> 0:13:27.382 have gotten so good at this, and they've all got 0:13:27.422 --> 0:13:30.302 their own podcasts. Yeah, they don't need to give you anything. 0:13:30.342 --> 0:13:34.662 Whereas real people are less guarded, they have less to lose. 0:13:35.302 --> 0:13:37.942 They're also just more interesting. They're not media trained. And 0:13:37.982 --> 0:13:41.102 back to your original question, Jesse, do I think it worked? Yeah? 0:13:41.102 --> 0:13:43.102 I guess it did work because I came away from 0:13:43.102 --> 0:13:46.462 that podcast interview thinking was he a dickhead? Is he 0:13:46.542 --> 0:13:51.182 still a dickhead? Absolutely? Is he a cannibal? And all 0:13:51.222 --> 0:13:53.662 of the things that I actually had believed that he was. 0:13:53.982 --> 0:13:56.462 No, it's interesting you use two terms. The first was 0:13:56.502 --> 0:13:59.702 you said it shows some humility. I do not see 0:13:59.902 --> 0:14:01.942 one ioda of humility in that manner. 0:14:01.982 --> 0:14:03.782 No, I think it for him, I think it shows 0:14:03.822 --> 0:14:07.142 false humility. Ah, that's why. So I think that's why 0:14:07.142 --> 0:14:09.261 it's a defense. I don't think it's always effective, and 0:14:09.382 --> 0:14:12.102 I don't think he came across as having humility at all, 0:14:12.422 --> 0:14:15.182 But I think if it's done right, like with Karl Stefanovic, 0:14:15.502 --> 0:14:17.502 it worked because it did show humility. 0:14:17.542 --> 0:14:19.382 You also said that it was a type of apology, 0:14:19.582 --> 0:14:22.862 which was interesting given you can scrape this entire interview 0:14:22.862 --> 0:14:25.422 and you will not find anything that is a semblance 0:14:25.422 --> 0:14:26.062 of an apology. 0:14:26.142 --> 0:14:26.902 Yeah, he's angry. 0:14:27.062 --> 0:14:29.582 There's also a semblance of truth in what he said, too, 0:14:29.622 --> 0:14:31.902 which is when he talked about the court of public opinion. 0:14:31.982 --> 0:14:34.142 And it's true that the court of public opinion can 0:14:34.222 --> 0:14:35.782 linger long beyond. 0:14:35.422 --> 0:14:36.582 The actual courts. 0:14:36.902 --> 0:14:39.942 And it brought to mind a case that happened in 0:14:39.982 --> 0:14:42.422 twenty twelve in New York a cannibal cop. Have you 0:14:42.462 --> 0:14:45.502 heard of this, Jesse Nature Crime Explorations. There was an 0:14:45.662 --> 0:14:50.182 NPD officer named Gilberto Valet and he was arrested because 0:14:50.262 --> 0:14:53.502 he had been on online forums talking about roasting women, 0:14:53.582 --> 0:14:56.302 cooking women, eating women. He was stood down from his 0:14:56.382 --> 0:14:59.462 job at the NYPD, but the criminal charges were dropped. 0:14:59.502 --> 0:15:01.862 The judge said, look, you clearly have a diseased mind, 0:15:01.942 --> 0:15:04.302 that was the phrase he used, but you haven't committed 0:15:04.342 --> 0:15:06.942 any crimes. And his lawyers had been arguing that all 0:15:06.942 --> 0:15:09.902 along that he was just exploring these sexual fantasies online. 0:15:10.022 --> 0:15:11.622 It seems to me that there's a bit of a 0:15:11.662 --> 0:15:15.142 parallel here with Army and the idea of minority report, 0:15:15.182 --> 0:15:17.982 that old Tom Cruise movie. If you haven't actually done something, 0:15:18.702 --> 0:15:21.662 and here I'm just talking about the cannibalism charges, how 0:15:21.702 --> 0:15:22.982 do you ever escape it? 0:15:23.342 --> 0:15:28.062 Yes? And the question is, then what's worse is being 0:15:28.262 --> 0:15:30.262 tired with the brush that you're a bad person or 0:15:30.262 --> 0:15:32.982 that you're a dickhead, better or worse, and being tired 0:15:33.022 --> 0:15:35.302 with the brush that you're a criminal. And what I 0:15:35.342 --> 0:15:38.582 found interesting about the dickhead defense was that I thought, 0:15:39.182 --> 0:15:42.222 I think I would rather own having committed a crime 0:15:42.462 --> 0:15:45.502 than being a bad person. But there are many men 0:15:45.542 --> 0:15:47.662 in Hollywood who seem happy to sit there and go 0:15:48.022 --> 0:15:50.262 I'm a piece of shit, I'm a terrible person. 0:15:50.022 --> 0:15:53.982 Because that's their path back to employment and reintegration into society. 0:15:54.142 --> 0:15:57.502 Whereas for a woman to say that she ain't coming back, 0:15:57.582 --> 0:16:00.662 like that's not a path back, I think it's completely calculated. 0:16:00.982 --> 0:16:03.142 It makes it so clear where our line is in 0:16:03.222 --> 0:16:05.822 terms of do you have permission to re enter? Did 0:16:05.862 --> 0:16:07.462 you go to even if you went to prison. You 0:16:07.462 --> 0:16:09.502 did serve your time, and we'll let them back in. 0:16:09.622 --> 0:16:09.902 Yeah. 0:16:09.942 --> 0:16:12.582 But for women like I just thought about Ellen or whatever. 0:16:12.622 --> 0:16:14.142 I thought, if she stood and she made a few 0:16:14.222 --> 0:16:16.382 jokes and stuff, but if she stood there and went, yeah, 0:16:16.422 --> 0:16:18.942 I was a selfish piece of shit who treated everyone poorly, 0:16:19.462 --> 0:16:23.342 we'd have gone it just doesn't work. But for him, 0:16:23.422 --> 0:16:26.942 even the affair, I thought only affair, and he said, well, 0:16:26.982 --> 0:16:28.982 you know, you don't have an affair if your marriage 0:16:29.022 --> 0:16:31.862 is going well. And I was like, oh, you're even 0:16:31.862 --> 0:16:33.142 blaming her for the affair. 0:16:33.702 --> 0:16:36.022 What I took away from it was that he was 0:16:36.102 --> 0:16:40.422 wanting to clarify. It's like, the word out there is 0:16:40.422 --> 0:16:42.582 that I'm accountable. I'm not. The word out there is 0:16:42.582 --> 0:16:45.062 that all of these things were non consensual. I'm saying 0:16:45.102 --> 0:16:47.902 they are now Again it's him against her, he said, 0:16:47.942 --> 0:16:51.382 she said, But he was still providing that context that 0:16:51.462 --> 0:16:55.062 you hear in people who feel misunderstood, and he says 0:16:55.062 --> 0:16:56.662 that he feels very misunderstood. 0:16:56.822 --> 0:16:59.022 One of the most interesting parts of the interview I 0:16:59.142 --> 0:17:01.702 thought was the question about Woody Allen. 0:17:01.902 --> 0:17:04.102 If Woody Allen offered you a role in his new movie, 0:17:04.142 --> 0:17:04.861 would you take it? 0:17:04.942 --> 0:17:07.621 Would I work with Woody Allen. I mean at this point, 0:17:07.982 --> 0:17:13.022 I don't know that I buy into any of the 0:17:14.341 --> 0:17:17.742 cancel we need to dis and that like I don't know. 0:17:18.141 --> 0:17:20.461 I mean, I know that this is like a trick question, 0:17:20.542 --> 0:17:23.221 and I know there's no right way to answer this question. 0:17:23.341 --> 0:17:26.741 But I think I think it's well no, because like 0:17:26.942 --> 0:17:27.902 if I say. 0:17:28.061 --> 0:17:30.702 No, it is a trick question. I think louis really 0:17:31.022 --> 0:17:33.502 ques brilliant, but it is a trick question. Louis being 0:17:33.542 --> 0:17:34.502 disingenuous there. 0:17:34.581 --> 0:17:37.901 He was basically speaking to how there does appear to 0:17:37.942 --> 0:17:41.061 be a line being drawn down Hollywood, And he goes 0:17:41.101 --> 0:17:43.542 on to ask, oh, also in that movie is Kevin 0:17:43.581 --> 0:17:45.302 Spacey and Harvey Weinstein's producing it? 0:17:45.462 --> 0:17:47.742 This movie is going to happen right the way that's 0:17:47.782 --> 0:17:48.581 coming out next to you. 0:17:48.861 --> 0:17:51.302 Yeah, and everyone's going to go and say everyone, And 0:17:51.341 --> 0:17:54.422 what he's saying is, have you been so radicalized by 0:17:54.422 --> 0:17:59.741 your cancelation that you now go everyone's mad. Let's just 0:18:00.141 --> 0:18:02.342 kind of put myself in the camp with the other 0:18:02.422 --> 0:18:04.741 men who have been canceled. And I thought he had 0:18:04.821 --> 0:18:06.781 quite a fair answer to that, which is I'd want 0:18:06.782 --> 0:18:09.262 to sit down with Woody Allen first. I mean, we 0:18:09.341 --> 0:18:11.221 all know that that's not going to reveal everything, but 0:18:11.381 --> 0:18:13.181 that he just knows that a lot of what is 0:18:13.222 --> 0:18:17.222 being said isn't necessarily the truth of someone who he says, 0:18:17.222 --> 0:18:18.022 has experienced that. 0:18:18.341 --> 0:18:20.621 I think we are seeing a big backlash to the 0:18:20.742 --> 0:18:22.982 late Orts cancelation era. 0:18:23.302 --> 0:18:23.502 Yeah. 0:18:23.542 --> 0:18:25.782 I mean, so many of the people, even in Trump's cabinet, 0:18:25.861 --> 0:18:28.142 are people who used to be on the Democratic side 0:18:28.141 --> 0:18:30.581 of politics who got canceled and then said, well, I'm 0:18:30.621 --> 0:18:32.821 seeking revenge. I'm joining Trump's cabinet. 0:18:33.222 --> 0:18:35.742 That's true. I think of the moment, there's a Trump 0:18:35.782 --> 0:18:39.502 theme here. I agree. After the break some updates on 0:18:39.542 --> 0:18:42.502 the Bell Gibson story. One week after the release of 0:18:42.542 --> 0:18:43.502 Apple Side of Vinegar. 0:18:47.502 --> 0:18:49.861 It's been a week since the new series Apple Side 0:18:49.861 --> 0:18:54.422 of Vinegar has been released on Netflix, and it has 0:18:54.702 --> 0:18:58.861 sparked global attention from people discovering this story for the 0:18:58.901 --> 0:19:01.862 first time from around the world. And also there've been 0:19:01.942 --> 0:19:05.101 quite a few developments from people who are associated with 0:19:05.182 --> 0:19:09.502 this story in real life. The family of Jessinskoff, who 0:19:09.542 --> 0:19:12.861 who is the wellness influencer who's portrayed in the show 0:19:12.982 --> 0:19:17.742 as Miller Blake heavily inspired by Jess's story, but her 0:19:17.782 --> 0:19:21.502