Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Muma Mia acknowledges
Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
Speaker 1: is recorded on. Are you kidding? It's not about the
Speaker 1: mainstream media. Who cares in twenty twenty five, who's on
Speaker 1: the Today Show or on sixty minutes. It's about TikTok
Speaker 1: and Instagram, and there is an algorithm deciding who gets
Speaker 1: platformed and who goes viral on those.
Speaker 2: And now, by the way, those platforms are taking away
Speaker 2: fact checking and are taking away a lot of the
Speaker 2: layers of authority that they put in place during the
Speaker 2: pandemic to make sure there wasn't misinformation.
Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome to Mummy. Are out loud what women
Speaker 3: are talking about on Monday, the seventeenth of February. I
Speaker 3: am Jesse Stevens, I'm mea Friedman, and we've got Amelia
Speaker 3: Lester filling in for Holly today. Amelia introduced herself in
Speaker 3: ten seconds or less.
Speaker 2: Hello, I'm a friend of Mia Friedman. I'm an editor
Speaker 2: at Foreign Policy Magazine and I'm an Australian American who
Speaker 2: lives in Sydney.
Speaker 3: I think you should have led with the second part.
Speaker 2: I know the most important thing in my life is
Speaker 2: that I'm a friend of the agreement.
Speaker 1: She's also tertiary educated, which means I now feel officially outnumbered.
Speaker 3: In terms of the letterboard. You are last. And on
Speaker 3: the Show Today last week, Louis Theroux interviewed Armie Hammer,
Speaker 3: who launched into an impassioned dickhead defense. What is the
Speaker 3: dickhead defense and did it work? Plus the real life
Speaker 3: characters from Apple Side of Vinegar are coming forward with
Speaker 3: their own accounts. Do they have a point? And could
Speaker 3: the Bell Gibson spectacle happen today? And apparently the whole
Speaker 3: generation thing is a myth, but we are not all convinced.
Speaker 1: But first, in case you missed it, one of Australia's
Speaker 1: most successful business women, Kayla Itsines, who is a fitness
Speaker 1: influencer with an app called Sweat, which she sold for one
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty million dollars and then bought back for
Speaker 1: a lot less. She posted a TikTok video last week
Speaker 1: calling out what she sees as excessive sexualization in the
Speaker 1: fitness industry. Ladies, put your bums away, She essentially said,
Speaker 1: stop filming those videos up your bum because I don't
Speaker 1: want to see that. While I'm having breakfast. That's literally
Speaker 1: what she said. We can't play you a grab of
Speaker 1: it because she has since taken it down after a
Speaker 1: lot of people were very unhappy and called her out
Speaker 1: for being a hypocrite because.
Speaker 2: Hasn't she been selling bikini body literally the name bikini
Speaker 2: body plans for years and.
Speaker 1: Years She has, indeed, and at the end of this video,
Speaker 1: when am I missing well the part where I said
Speaker 1: she was a businesswoman. At the end of this video,
Speaker 1: she did do a shout out to her own glutes
Speaker 1: program and say that it was essentially if people didn't
Speaker 1: want to look up bums but still wanted to have
Speaker 1: amazing glutes. As she said, she said, she's got a
Speaker 1: glutes program and if they followed her program then they
Speaker 1: could just see more modest bottoms and less Still before
Speaker 1: what she was saying, Jesse, I'm not really across Kayla
Speaker 1: It scenes, although I do know that this is the
Speaker 1: reason we launched move because we wanted people to have
Speaker 1: an option of it not being so appearance focused.
Speaker 3: I get served a lot of fitness content on Instagram
Speaker 3: and TikTok, and I have been served Kayla It scenes
Speaker 3: bick anybody for ten years I'm not sure if she
Speaker 3: does it anymore, but I distinctly remember the beginning of
Speaker 3: sort of the fitness industry. The model was his or
Speaker 3: before and after, and I'm talking ten a day before
Speaker 3: and after.
Speaker 1: Wow, you have a lot of body after baby stuff.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, women's bodies, and Kayla is known. I would
Speaker 3: say that the appearance of her abdominals is central to
Speaker 3: her marketing. It's really important because you know, it's the
Speaker 3: illusion of fitness or it makes people it's shorthand to go.
Speaker 3: I'm really in the same way that Sam Wood often
Speaker 3: doesn't have a shirt on. I think that fitness is
Speaker 3: seen as something very visual. So when I heard her
Speaker 3: talking about the sexualization, I thought, we're all playing the
Speaker 3: same game here, which is that the algorithm of both
Speaker 3: is we need attention in order to get people to
Speaker 3: buy our products.
Speaker 1: So it's like she's more female gaze, and say the
Speaker 1: Tammy Hembrowse who have a lot of shots of their
Speaker 1: bum filmed in those low angles. She talks a lot
Speaker 1: about low angles, which is just a different vibe. It's
Speaker 1: more perhaps male gazing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't necessarily have a problem with it, and
Speaker 3: I'm not sure that it is male gaze because I
Speaker 3: get served a lot of glute content because I have
Speaker 3: issues activating my glutes is a personal issue that I have,
Speaker 3: and I say, TikTok, help me with my glute exercises.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because your legs just connect straight to your.
Speaker 3: Bag exactly, And so what I need is to And
Speaker 3: this is my defense of the form fitting because I
Speaker 3: know what leggings she's talking about.
Speaker 1: Was she talking about leggings or was she talking about angles?
Speaker 3: Angles? But she's saying, you can really see the glute being.
Speaker 1: Act But is that maybe sometimes because the glute is
Speaker 1: an implant.
Speaker 3: Well that's a whole other story.
Speaker 2: Aren't you just saying then that abs are female gaze
Speaker 2: coded and glutes are male gaze coded.
Speaker 3: See, I think that the gaze is just everyone's gaze.
Speaker 3: I think that now that we're just looking at the
Speaker 3: same I mean, i'd be interested to see the stats
Speaker 3: about who's following who, But I'm a woman who's looking
Speaker 3: at a lot of glute centered content. And I think
Speaker 3: that the reason we have such form hugging clothing in
Speaker 3: exercise is often because there is a focus on form.
Speaker 3: There's a focus on this is how you correctly do
Speaker 3: the pilates, move the weights for the yoga thing, which
Speaker 3: is what you're being for because you don't want to
Speaker 3: get injured. So you can't have someone dressed as an
Speaker 3: Amish person doing a squat because I don't know how
Speaker 3: your backs arching.
Speaker 1: Among fitness influences, the trend used to be for a
Speaker 1: much slimmer body. Kayla, it seems is very much. She's
Speaker 1: very slim, whereas some of the other fitness influencers that
Speaker 1: do the booty content, well they've just got really big booties. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so there's a more muscular, a more big bottomed. And
Speaker 1: the criticisms that she obviously took to heart because she
Speaker 1: took it down, were that she was hyper critical because
Speaker 1: she flaunted her body, as the Daily Mail would say,
Speaker 1: and why is she criticizing other women for how they
Speaker 1: want to portray their own bodies.
Speaker 3: Last week, documentarian and podcast Louis Thuru released a podcast
Speaker 3: episode with actor Armie Hammer that has since gone viral
Speaker 3: due to the palpable tension that emerged between the two men.
Speaker 3: You might have seen this clip circulating on social media.
Speaker 3: Did you have anything else you wanted to say? I
Speaker 3: should know.
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't love the way the interview started.
Speaker 4: Just to be perfectly honest, I'm not crazy about drudging
Speaker 4: up all of this stuff because for me, a lot
Speaker 4: of these issues have been resolved, whether it be legally
Speaker 4: or within myself, and I feel like a lot of
Speaker 4: those waters have settled. I think doing things like that
Speaker 4: stirs up the water again unnecessarily. It definitely wasn't my
Speaker 4: favorite beginning. I'm glad we moved past that and got
Speaker 4: to a place where we could have a civil, normal
Speaker 4: conversation like that felt good. But drudging up all that stuff, like,
Speaker 4: I don't love it.
Speaker 3: I hear you and I sense that during the chat.
Speaker 3: I think in the court of public opinion, the jury
Speaker 3: is still out.
Speaker 4: But my thing now is like the court of public opinion. Like,
Speaker 4: pick anything that the court of public opinion has an
Speaker 4: opinion on, and there's a very good chance that they
Speaker 4: will not be fully informed. There's a very good chance
Speaker 4: they don't have the full story, and there's also a
Speaker 4: very good chance that they're probably wrong.
Speaker 3: I sent this around when I saw it first thing
Speaker 3: last week and went, that is the single best podcast
Speaker 3: trailer I have ever seen. Because I saw that when
Speaker 3: I need to listen to it immediately let's take a
Speaker 3: few steps backwards. Because Armie Hammer, who you might know
Speaker 3: as the Winklevoss Twins in the Social network or he
Speaker 3: was the lead in Call Me by Your Name opposite
Speaker 3: Timothy Shallamy, he was accused of sexual emotional and physical assault, rape,
Speaker 3: and cannibalistic fantasies in early twenty twenty one. Text messages
Speaker 3: were published at the time that read I'm one hundred
Speaker 3: percent accnnibal. He expressed a desire to cut off a
Speaker 3: piece of his partner and eat it, and another text
Speaker 3: expressed wanting to hold a partner down and rape her.
Speaker 3: Hamma maintained that these were taken out of context and
Speaker 3: were part of a sexually charged and consensual back and forth.
Speaker 3: The charges against him were eventually dropped in twenty twenty three,
Speaker 3: citing insufficient evidence. Hamma has since spoken about losing every
Speaker 3: job he had, he was dropped by his agent, he
Speaker 3: was shunned by friends, and he's talked about the emotional
Speaker 3: toll that the allegations took on him. And now in
Speaker 3: twenty twenty five, he is sitting opposite Louis and I'm
Speaker 3: going to give you the headlines from the interview. If
Speaker 3: you haven't listened.
Speaker 1: Amy has a podcast of his own, doesn't he does?
Speaker 1: Mum he does?
Speaker 3: Yeah, released it last year. Remember his mum bought him
Speaker 3: a phaseectomy.
Speaker 1: That was so kind. Do you think he's now just
Speaker 1: a lot of people have been talking about he's coming back,
Speaker 1: and there's no such thing as cancelation. I imagine he's
Speaker 1: been on peas Morgan. Do you think he just is like,
Speaker 1: I've just got to talk about it. I'm just going
Speaker 1: to own it. I'm going to lean into it, and
Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about it until it's not interesting
Speaker 1: to people anymore.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think so. I think he probably had two choices.
Speaker 3: I mean, he did retreat for a significant period of time,
Speaker 3: But the biggest thing is in a moment, he's going
Speaker 3: to have movies to promote, so he can't just come out.
Speaker 3: And I think when he promotes the movies, he probably
Speaker 3: wants to promote the movie.
Speaker 1: So he's working again.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Is he getting cars?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, he said he's getting offers every day.
Speaker 1: Okay, interesting.
Speaker 3: So these were the headlines from the interview. He admitted
Speaker 3: to having an affair while still married to his wife,
Speaker 3: but said that people in happy marriages don't have affairs.
Speaker 3: He said only one side of the text. Conversations were leaked,
Speaker 3: meaning that they would devoid of context. He talked about
Speaker 3: intergenerational trauma. His grandfather was accused of killing a man
Speaker 3: of sexually abusing his daughter. There's a documentary called The
Speaker 3: House of Hammer about the history of the family. He
Speaker 3: says the scandal was the greatest thing that ever happened
Speaker 3: to him. It forced him to get sober. He didn't
Speaker 3: recognize who he had become, and he denies, ultimately that
Speaker 3: he was guilty of anything that resembled a crime. Ultimately,
Speaker 3: he used what hollywould call the dickhead defense. He was
Speaker 3: a bad person, radicalized by fame and money and pornography
Speaker 3: and access to anything he wanted All the time, he
Speaker 3: treated people badly, women his wife. He says that like Icarus,
Speaker 3: he flew too close to the sun, but he was
Speaker 3: not guilty of abuse. Maya does the dickhead defense work.
Speaker 1: I thought it was a really interesting interview to listen to.
Speaker 1: I'm not all the way through it, but I think
Speaker 1: that when you call yourself a dickhead, you show two things. Firstly,
Speaker 1: there's humility in there, and secondly, there's self awareness. And
Speaker 1: I think implicit in that is an apology of sorts,
Speaker 1: because what we know is that no matter what you do,
Speaker 1: however you apologize, will be critiqued and found wanting by
Speaker 1: the apology police. And the other time that I can
Speaker 1: think that this really really worked. Although the two things
Speaker 1: aren't comparable. But Karl Stefanovic a number of years ago
Speaker 1: used an offensive term for a marginalized group of people
Speaker 1: and there was a big backlash about it, and the
Speaker 1: next day on the Today Show he said, I was
Speaker 1: a tool. I really shouldn't have used that word. Now
Speaker 1: I understand, I won't use it again. And by calling
Speaker 1: himself out so strongly, he sort of left no room
Speaker 1: for people to come at him anymore. And it worked.
Speaker 3: Have you ever seen a woman do it?
Speaker 1: Never?
Speaker 5: Oh?
Speaker 3: God, no, I don't think a woman can use it
Speaker 3: acad defense Amelia, do you think it works well.
Speaker 2: One thing that I thought was so interesting about that grab,
Speaker 2: which I assume was the most interesting part of the interview,
Speaker 2: is that it reminded me of this phenomenon that doctors
Speaker 2: describe as the doorstop question.
Speaker 5: Oh have you heard of that?
Speaker 2: So apparently when you go and see the doctor, they
Speaker 2: know that you're basically going to sort of fluff your
Speaker 2: way through the actual consultation, and then as you stand
Speaker 2: up on the way out, you go just one other thing,
Speaker 2: and then that often turns out to be the thing
Speaker 2: that is wrong with you, or you know, you might
Speaker 2: have a mole that you That's how I almost get
Speaker 2: cancer removed.
Speaker 3: We're standing and walking out of the room going actually while.
Speaker 2: I'm here, doorstop question Mia. In No Filter interviews, would
Speaker 2: you always ask people is there anything else you want
Speaker 2: to say? That kind of like cleaning up question in
Speaker 2: the air?
Speaker 1: Never? I never ever would. Maybe I probably should have.
Speaker 1: That's really I think it's a little.
Speaker 2: Bit of a lifetack in general, because if you're having
Speaker 2: a conversation with someone, it takes time to warm up
Speaker 2: to the actual meat of it. I think, sorry, that
Speaker 2: was bad given the cannibal discussion.
Speaker 3: I think that that's specific to this type of interview
Speaker 3: right because Louis, I think this is season four or
Speaker 3: season five of his podcast, and it has in terms
Speaker 3: of charting, it's not really been working. I listened to
Speaker 3: a few of them and I stopped because I don't
Speaker 3: think Louis Threux is a celebrity interviewer.
Speaker 1: He's not.
Speaker 3: It's not where he's best.
Speaker 1: He's best talking to weird people about weird thing.
Speaker 3: He is a subculture journalist, like that's where he got
Speaker 3: his experience, and he is so skilled at sitting with
Speaker 3: someone and giving them space and playing the idiot.
Speaker 1: And but it's also not just about him. It's celebrities
Speaker 1: have gotten so good at this, and they've all got
Speaker 1: their own podcasts. Yeah, they don't need to give you anything.
Speaker 1: Whereas real people are less guarded, they have less to lose.
Speaker 1: They're also just more interesting. They're not media trained. And
Speaker 1: back to your original question, Jesse, do I think it worked? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I guess it did work because I came away from
Speaker 1: that podcast interview thinking was he a dickhead? Is he
Speaker 1: still a dickhead? Absolutely? Is he a cannibal? And all
Speaker 1: of the things that I actually had believed that he was.
Speaker 3: No, it's interesting you use two terms. The first was
Speaker 3: you said it shows some humility. I do not see
Speaker 3: one ioda of humility in that manner.
Speaker 1: No, I think it for him, I think it shows
Speaker 1: false humility. Ah, that's why. So I think that's why
Speaker 1: it's a defense. I don't think it's always effective, and
Speaker 1: I don't think he came across as having humility at all,
Speaker 1: But I think if it's done right, like with Karl Stefanovic,
Speaker 1: it worked because it did show humility.
Speaker 3: You also said that it was a type of apology,
Speaker 3: which was interesting given you can scrape this entire interview
Speaker 3: and you will not find anything that is a semblance
Speaker 3: of an apology.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's angry.
Speaker 2: There's also a semblance of truth in what he said, too,
Speaker 2: which is when he talked about the court of public opinion.
Speaker 2: And it's true that the court of public opinion can
Speaker 2: linger long beyond.
Speaker 5: The actual courts.
Speaker 2: And it brought to mind a case that happened in
Speaker 2: twenty twelve in New York a cannibal cop. Have you
Speaker 2: heard of this, Jesse Nature Crime Explorations. There was an
Speaker 2: NPD officer named Gilberto Valet and he was arrested because
Speaker 2: he had been on online forums talking about roasting women,
Speaker 2: cooking women, eating women. He was stood down from his
Speaker 2: job at the NYPD, but the criminal charges were dropped.
Speaker 2: The judge said, look, you clearly have a diseased mind,
Speaker 2: that was the phrase he used, but you haven't committed
Speaker 2: any crimes. And his lawyers had been arguing that all
Speaker 2: along that he was just exploring these sexual fantasies online.
Speaker 2: It seems to me that there's a bit of a
Speaker 2: parallel here with Army and the idea of minority report,
Speaker 2: that old Tom Cruise movie. If you haven't actually done something,
Speaker 2: and here I'm just talking about the cannibalism charges, how
Speaker 2: do you ever escape it?
Speaker 3: Yes? And the question is, then what's worse is being
Speaker 3: tired with the brush that you're a bad person or
Speaker 3: that you're a dickhead, better or worse, and being tired
Speaker 3: with the brush that you're a criminal. And what I
Speaker 3: found interesting about the dickhead defense was that I thought,
Speaker 3: I think I would rather own having committed a crime
Speaker 3: than being a bad person. But there are many men
Speaker 3: in Hollywood who seem happy to sit there and go
Speaker 3: I'm a piece of shit, I'm a terrible person.
Speaker 1: Because that's their path back to employment and reintegration into society.
Speaker 1: Whereas for a woman to say that she ain't coming back,
Speaker 1: like that's not a path back, I think it's completely calculated.
Speaker 3: It makes it so clear where our line is in
Speaker 3: terms of do you have permission to re enter? Did
Speaker 3: you go to even if you went to prison. You
Speaker 3: did serve your time, and we'll let them back in.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: But for women like I just thought about Ellen or whatever.
Speaker 3: I thought, if she stood and she made a few
Speaker 3: jokes and stuff, but if she stood there and went, yeah,
Speaker 3: I was a selfish piece of shit who treated everyone poorly,
Speaker 3: we'd have gone it just doesn't work. But for him,
Speaker 3: even the affair, I thought only affair, and he said, well,
Speaker 3: you know, you don't have an affair if your marriage
Speaker 3: is going well. And I was like, oh, you're even
Speaker 3: blaming her for the affair.
Speaker 1: What I took away from it was that he was
Speaker 1: wanting to clarify. It's like, the word out there is
Speaker 1: that I'm accountable. I'm not. The word out there is
Speaker 1: that all of these things were non consensual. I'm saying
Speaker 1: they are now Again it's him against her, he said,
Speaker 1: she said, But he was still providing that context that
Speaker 1: you hear in people who feel misunderstood, and he says
Speaker 1: that he feels very misunderstood.
Speaker 3: One of the most interesting parts of the interview I
Speaker 3: thought was the question about Woody Allen.
Speaker 1: If Woody Allen offered you a role in his new movie,
Speaker 1: would you take it?
Speaker 4: Would I work with Woody Allen. I mean at this point,
Speaker 4: I don't know that I buy into any of the
Speaker 4: cancel we need to dis and that like I don't know.
Speaker 4: I mean, I know that this is like a trick question,
Speaker 4: and I know there's no right way to answer this question.
Speaker 4: But I think I think it's well no, because like
Speaker 4: if I say.
Speaker 1: No, it is a trick question. I think louis really
Speaker 1: ques brilliant, but it is a trick question. Louis being
Speaker 1: disingenuous there.
Speaker 3: He was basically speaking to how there does appear to
Speaker 3: be a line being drawn down Hollywood, And he goes
Speaker 3: on to ask, oh, also in that movie is Kevin
Speaker 3: Spacey and Harvey Weinstein's producing it?
Speaker 2: This movie is going to happen right the way that's
Speaker 2: coming out next to you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and everyone's going to go and say everyone, And
Speaker 3: what he's saying is, have you been so radicalized by
Speaker 3: your cancelation that you now go everyone's mad. Let's just
Speaker 3: kind of put myself in the camp with the other
Speaker 3: men who have been canceled. And I thought he had
Speaker 3: quite a fair answer to that, which is I'd want
Speaker 3: to sit down with Woody Allen first. I mean, we
Speaker 3: all know that that's not going to reveal everything, but
Speaker 3: that he just knows that a lot of what is
Speaker 3: being said isn't necessarily the truth of someone who he says,
Speaker 3: has experienced that.
Speaker 2: I think we are seeing a big backlash to the
Speaker 2: late Orts cancelation era.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, so many of the people, even in Trump's cabinet,
Speaker 2: are people who used to be on the Democratic side
Speaker 2: of politics who got canceled and then said, well, I'm
Speaker 2: seeking revenge. I'm joining Trump's cabinet.
Speaker 3: That's true. I think of the moment, there's a Trump
Speaker 3: theme here. I agree. After the break some updates on
Speaker 3: the Bell Gibson story. One week after the release of
Speaker 3: Apple Side of Vinegar.
Speaker 1: It's been a week since the new series Apple Side
Speaker 1: of Vinegar has been released on Netflix, and it has
Speaker 1: sparked global attention from people discovering this story for the
Speaker 1: first time from around the world. And also there've been
Speaker 1: quite a few developments from people who are associated with
Speaker 1: this story in real life. The family of Jessinskoff, who
Speaker 1: who is the wellness influencer who's portrayed in the show
Speaker 1: as Miller Blake heavily inspired by Jess's story, but her
Speaker 1: family have come out her father in particular, and said
Speaker 1: that it's just not true. There are a lot of
Speaker 1: inaccuracies in the way.
Speaker 3: What does he say are the inaccuracy Yeah.
Speaker 1: So he says that the main inaccuracy is that Jess
Speaker 1: and Bell Gibson were friends. And Talon Parmenter, who is
Speaker 1: Jess's former fiance, has also come out and said that
Speaker 1: same thing. And I think what's really important for people
Speaker 1: to understand because I watched that story happen as it
Speaker 1: happened in real life to Jess. They're not disputing the
Speaker 1: medical side, so nobody knows exactly what her medical history is.
Speaker 1: And that's frankly not so much how business, except for
Speaker 1: what she told us through her Instagram, and she was
Speaker 1: very open and honest about saying that at the end
Speaker 1: she wished that she'd listened to doctors earlier on in
Speaker 1: her journey. The other person who's come out this week
Speaker 1: is Richard Gilliat, who says that he was the one,
Speaker 1: and indeed he was. He's a journalist from The Australian.
Speaker 1: He broke the original story and revealed the moment that
Speaker 1: Bell Gibson's lies began unraveling, and he also said that
Speaker 1: what he thought was most different about the way Bell
Speaker 1: was portrayed versus his experience of her, and he did
Speaker 1: interview her a number of times, is that he said
Speaker 1: she was portrayed as this quite conniving, successful scammer, and
Speaker 1: he said that she was actually terrible. She was terrible
Speaker 1: at covering her tracks. It was a time before people
Speaker 1: would dig online, so she didn't have to be as
Speaker 1: good as she would have had to be today. But
Speaker 1: he said she was actually a really bad liar and
Speaker 1: there were always big holes in her story. It's just
Speaker 1: that nobody really looked into them at the time. The
Speaker 1: Victorian premier Justinto Allan has come out and said that
Speaker 1: consumer Affairs Victoria, who is owed hundreds of thousands of
Speaker 1: dollars from a fine Bell Gibson, was given back in
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen. It's now over half a million dollars that
Speaker 1: she ownes with penalties. Just Cintra Allen has said that
Speaker 1: they will continue pursuing that debt, and it was also
Speaker 1: recently revealed that Belle has split from her longtime partner
Speaker 1: Clive Rothwell, who is portrayed in the show, and also
Speaker 1: claims that she still can't afford to pay her fines.
Speaker 1: What we were thinking about is could Belle Gibson happen
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five or was that a moment in
Speaker 1: time and we've all learned our lesson about wellness scammers? Amelia?
Speaker 1: What do you think?
Speaker 2: One thing they thought was really interesting in that Richard
Speaker 2: Gilliad story was that he pointed out this was the
Speaker 2: very beginning of the wellness movement. He said that when
Speaker 2: he started reporting on that he had never written anything
Speaker 2: about wellness before.
Speaker 1: Can you imagine, Yeah, well, a man working at a
Speaker 1: broadsheet and mainstream media, right, so at the time.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was have a different era, but.
Speaker 1: No one was really willing to call it out at
Speaker 1: the time because, especially when someone came out and said
Speaker 1: they had cancer, you can't ask for someone's medical records.
Speaker 1: It didn't occur to people that lies were being told
Speaker 1: or that they were going to necessarily have tragic ends.
Speaker 1: Everyone was just sort of watching this slow moving car accident.
Speaker 2: It got me thinking more broadly about the trajectory of
Speaker 2: the wellness movement, because if you assume it sort of
Speaker 2: started around twenty ten, let's say, and then it kind
Speaker 2: of reached its climax, if you will, during the pandemic
Speaker 2: when we had this actual public health emergency, and suddenly
Speaker 2: thinking about our fourteen stepskin care routines and the optimal
Speaker 2: way to tone our abs might have seemed irrelevant. But
Speaker 2: if anything, I think it caused more people to embrace
Speaker 2: the idea that their body was the only thing they
Speaker 2: could control in this completely out of control moment.
Speaker 1: Well, that was Pete Evans' time, right when he was
Speaker 1: selling those health lamps and the bone broth, and when
Speaker 1: he sort of imploded. Do you think a lot of
Speaker 1: people who were perhaps interested in alternate medicine became radicalized
Speaker 1: during COVID Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think that what happened was that when the world
Speaker 2: became more out of control, people realized, well, I can
Speaker 2: make sure I e five servings of fruit and vegetables
Speaker 2: every day, and I can make sure that I get
Speaker 2: my body into optimal shape. And that idea of optimization,
Speaker 2: which came to us via Silicon Valley but then sort
Speaker 2: of trickled down into the wellness industry, I think was
Speaker 2: a big part of that. That idea of making sure
Speaker 2: that every part of your life serves a purpose and
Speaker 2: your body is running like a well oiled machine.
Speaker 1: So it almost seems like an absurd question to ask
Speaker 1: you when over the weekend the new health secretary in
Speaker 1: America was sworn in and it's rfk Jr.
Speaker 5: Yes, So, Robert F.
Speaker 2: Kennedy Jr. Is now Donald Trump's new Health and Human
Speaker 2: Services Secretary. It's interesting because in his confirmation hearings, he
Speaker 2: was asked a lot of questions about whether he believes
Speaker 2: in vaccines, and he kept saying that, yeah, he's actually
Speaker 2: fine with them. The way that he would make an
Speaker 2: official distinction is that he thinks that people should make
Speaker 2: their own choices about vaccines. Now, of course that kind
Speaker 2: of undercuts the whole purpose of vaccines, which has herd immunity.
Speaker 2: But Caroline Kennedy, his cousin, came out with a video
Speaker 2: before his hearing where she said he vaccinates his kids.
Speaker 5: It's just that he's decided that.
Speaker 2: It's financially lucrative for him to profit off these families
Speaker 2: with sick children and basically scare manger about the health
Speaker 2: effects of vaccines. Broadly speaking, I think that his appointment
Speaker 2: really shows that the Make America Healthy Again movement has
Speaker 2: fully taken flight. Are you familiar with this basically like Maha, Yeah, MAHA.
Speaker 2: So basically, it really emphasizes integrative and holistic medicine, reducing
Speaker 2: environmental pollution, eating healthy. Look, all of this sounds great, obviously,
Speaker 2: I don't think anyone at this table would disagree that
Speaker 2: those are worthy goals. But I think there is a
Speaker 2: darker side to it, which says, your health is solely
Speaker 2: your responsibility. The government needs to get out of helping
Speaker 2: you live a healthy life, and if you get an
Speaker 2: illness or a disease, it's kind of on you. And
Speaker 2: one example of that is that at his hearing he
Speaker 2: said that we should study the origins of chronic illness
Speaker 2: over researching infectious diseases. Now, I think that most people,
Speaker 2: certainly most scientists, would probably say we should do both.
Speaker 2: Let's figure out how to fix obesity and make sure
Speaker 2: that we prevent the next airborne pandemic.
Speaker 3: What Apple Side of Vinegar did so well that I
Speaker 3: think actually plays perfectly into this MAHA moment is that
Speaker 3: the wellness movement and the MAHA movement both have a point,
Speaker 3: like they have a real point. And Jess's family coming
Speaker 3: out and saying don't put her alongside Bell Gibson. I
Speaker 3: think that's fair because Jess really had cancer, and that's
Speaker 3: what they're trying to say too, And that is a
Speaker 3: totally different thing the wellness movement. People who talk about
Speaker 3: holistic or alternative remedies aren't lying about their health conditions.
Speaker 3: That's like a.
Speaker 1: Separate thing, but it was some of them are.
Speaker 3: It's a total anomaly like that someone would lie about it.
Speaker 3: I think the question of whether or not it would
Speaker 3: happen today is an interesting one because I keep seeing
Speaker 3: a lot of commentary and criticism about the role that
Speaker 3: the media played in this.
Speaker 1: But hang on, don't we have these We just had
Speaker 1: an Australian influencer parenting influencer arrested a couple of weeks
Speaker 1: ago for faking an illness allegedly allegedly in her child
Speaker 1: and actually allegedly harming her child.
Speaker 3: So in that way, the onus, I think has to
Speaker 3: be on the media in terms of what they platform
Speaker 3: and doing their due diligence. If you've got someone on
Speaker 3: your morning TV show saying that each how do you do.
Speaker 5: That, Jesse? Do you ask them for their medical record? Well,
Speaker 5: this is what I mean.
Speaker 3: If they're sitting there saying you should do a coffee enema,
Speaker 3: it'll cure your cancer, whether or not they have cancer.
Speaker 3: I don't think you should platform them because every scientist
Speaker 3: in the country will tell you that's not true. But
Speaker 3: we cannot. And this is something I don't know it
Speaker 3: comes up in the show, but there is patient doctor confidentiality.
Speaker 3: We cannot access people's health records. If someone comes out
Speaker 3: and says, if Bell Gibson emerges now and says she
Speaker 3: has cancer, we can't prove or disprove that what n
Speaker 3: did this whole case was actually following the money. And
Speaker 3: one of the things I was most surprised to learn
Speaker 3: was about the five year old boy who in real
Speaker 3: life she pledged to give him an enormous amount of
Speaker 3: money for surgery. And that was true, and that was true,
Speaker 3: and she never gave it to him, and he died.
Speaker 1: What Jess's father and former fiance have objected to, again
Speaker 1: is not so much the portrayal of her medical story,
Speaker 1: but it's the idea that she was somehow parallel to
Speaker 1: Bell Gibson, that she cared about Bell Gibson, that she
Speaker 1: wanted to enact revenge on Bell Gibson. At the end
Speaker 1: of her life. None of that happened, and I have
Speaker 1: to say, I wasn't aware of any of that sort
Speaker 1: of connection, which.
Speaker 3: Is why Mila was understood to be an amalgamation of
Speaker 3: a few different people and wasn't given the real life
Speaker 3: name of Jess. And so I think we've got to
Speaker 3: be really careful in talking about it.
Speaker 1: Belle wanted to be like Jess, like that part is
Speaker 1: true clearly because Jess was much more famous.
Speaker 3: Yes, but we have to be careful to not say
Speaker 3: that Mila is Jess because she's not.
Speaker 1: Belle did turn up at Jess's funeral, though, that's true.
Speaker 2: Just back on that question of whether it can happen again, though, Jesse,
Speaker 2: I think you made a really interesting point, which is
Speaker 2: that people are feeling tired, exhausted, run down, stressed, anxious,
Speaker 2: can't sleep. That's been happening ever since we got smartphones, basically, yeah,
Speaker 2: and we're searching for solutions.
Speaker 3: And the conspiracy that institutions, that governments, that pharmaceutical companies,
Speaker 3: you know what we eat, is making us sick. It's
Speaker 3: not totally a conspiracy, the pharmaceutical industry in the US especially,
Speaker 3: it's a for profit medical system. I watched a movie
Speaker 3: recently called Dark Waters with Mark Ruffalo about a company
Speaker 3: that put toxic chemicals in its water supply, and this
Speaker 3: whole town people were getting cancers and autoimmune diseases. The
Speaker 3: erosion of trust in institutions is real and justified.
Speaker 1: In Australia, they've been finding certain chemicals in dams. Back
Speaker 1: to the point of could it happen today? And when
Speaker 1: you said about the mainstream media needs to be careful
Speaker 1: who they platform, are you kidding? It's not about the
Speaker 1: mainstream media. Who cares in twenty twenty five, who's on
Speaker 1: the Today Show or on sixty minutes. It's about TikTok
Speaker 1: on Instagram, and there is an algorithm deciding who gets
Speaker 1: platformed and who goes viral on those.
Speaker 2: And now, by the way, those platforms are taking away
Speaker 2: fact checking and are taking away a lot of the
Speaker 2: layers of authority that they put in place during the
Speaker 2: pandemic to make sure there wasn't misinformation.
Speaker 1: But to their credit, those platforms also have amateus looths.
Speaker 1: And so I think that everything that happened in the
Speaker 1: portrayal of the other thing that the reporter from The
Speaker 1: Australian said is that his wife actually had breast cancer
Speaker 1: and he really resented that being grafted onto the story
Speaker 1: of the two guys from the age who do exist
Speaker 1: as well, but again they were all fictionalized. I think
Speaker 1: that TikTok would do this lou thing, so it's kind
Speaker 1: of like it couldn't happen again, but it already is.
Speaker 2: We're all hungry for the magic bullet, for the solution
Speaker 2: to our general feelings of malise and exhaustion, and I
Speaker 2: think we're going to keep looking for that as long
Speaker 2: as these big institutions are declining in front of our
Speaker 2: very eyes. Are you always thinking about your next meal
Speaker 2: or snack? I am. I think that everyone in the
Speaker 2: world can be divided into two categories. People who are
Speaker 2: thinking about what they're going to eat next, and people
Speaker 2: who think that there should be a pill for food
Speaker 2: and you never have to do.
Speaker 1: That's it.
Speaker 3: I'm in that category.
Speaker 5: What do you mean there is?
Speaker 1: It's called weight loss drugs.
Speaker 3: No, as in like I wish that I could just
Speaker 3: have a cup of sludge a day, but had on
Speaker 3: my nutrients.
Speaker 1: Oh, I fall somewhere in the middle.
Speaker 2: I'm one of those people who looks at the menu
Speaker 2: of a restaurant before I go to decide exactly what
Speaker 2: I'm going to order.
Speaker 3: See, I'm the one who sits there and goes you order.
Speaker 5: I'll just pick anyway.
Speaker 2: There's a word for people like me, and this Japanese
Speaker 2: word is kushi sabishi, which translates to lonely mouth. I
Speaker 2: learned this from Pandora Sex newsletter, and it refers to
Speaker 2: when you want to eat something, not because you are
Speaker 2: hungry or because you require nutritional value, but because your
Speaker 2: mouth needs company. And I love this, Oh.
Speaker 1: I love this. So it's different to eating your feelings.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's just because your mouth needs company. And this
Speaker 2: explains okers smokers, Maybe it'd explains smokers. It's an oral fixation. Actually,
Speaker 2: I once had a yoga teacher who said that part
Speaker 2: of the reason why people get addicted to smoking is
Speaker 2: because you're doing yoga breathing and it relaxes you.
Speaker 5: It's so true, we should put a health warning on that.
Speaker 2: A much healthier habit is buying your pretzels in bulks
Speaker 2: from cost Co, which is what I do. Because I
Speaker 2: have lonely mouth. I always need to have a party
Speaker 2: in my mouth. And now I have a word to describe.
Speaker 3: Did you gun No?
Speaker 5: Because I don't like it. Don't doesn't do a bit
Speaker 5: of crunch, a little bit of salt.
Speaker 2: I'm quite particular about my mouth. Do you have a
Speaker 2: favorite snack for your lonely mouth?
Speaker 1: Okay, T T yeah, yeah, my mouth is lonely without
Speaker 1: tea as.
Speaker 3: Someone nothing likes my brain up. I don't really get
Speaker 3: excited about things, but I have begun with the Easter eggs.
Speaker 3: I know it's only February.
Speaker 1: Cross bunds, but it's a particular type of taste of
Speaker 1: East eggs.
Speaker 3: Which there's just the little Cadbury, nothing inside, nothing fancy,
Speaker 3: and you chuck it in the mouth and then you
Speaker 3: just suck it. And I have them every single night,
Speaker 3: Like I'm just well, I've been overdoing it and I've
Speaker 3: been feeling a bit seack. So I'm trying to cut
Speaker 3: down to say five, what would r would? He would
Speaker 3: say anything that happens for you as your own fault,
Speaker 3: and he'd probably be right.
Speaker 1: Coming up next, a generational argument that we have been
Speaker 1: waiting to have all day. Maybe all our lives.
Speaker 3: Want unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
Speaker 3: and Thursday exclusively from Mum and Maya. Subscribers follow the
Speaker 3: link in the show notes to get us in your
Speaker 3: ears five days a week and a huge thank you
Speaker 3: to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 2: Are generations Real? An ABC podcast called Future Tense has
Speaker 2: come up with a pretty provocative theory on this in
Speaker 2: an episode called The Danger of Generational Labeling. The podcast
Speaker 2: brings in demographers who argue that the naming of generations
Speaker 2: is pseudoscience. Says it's no better than astrology.
Speaker 1: But it's a hang on. Isn't it based on literally
Speaker 1: when you were born?
Speaker 3: Yeah, but there's always christ Us true.
Speaker 2: So baby boomers apparently they're allowed to still be a generation.
Speaker 5: They can breathe easy.
Speaker 2: They are based on what the experts call a demographic reality.
Speaker 2: But then you move on to these more pseudoscience cultural generations.
Speaker 2: Generation X, Sorry, Mia, that's not based on an economic
Speaker 2: or demographic reality.
Speaker 1: In my head, it's all.
Speaker 5: In your head.
Speaker 2: Millennials, Jesse and I. It's just a reference to a
Speaker 2: point in time. It doesn't mean anything. Gen Z was
Speaker 2: still arguing on when that group begins and ends, and
Speaker 2: apparently Jen Alpha, no one even knows if that's a
Speaker 2: real thing. And also the name is very unimaginative because
Speaker 2: we're starting at the side of the alphabet.
Speaker 1: Is this because baby boomers were actually a reference to
Speaker 1: a change in population. Right, So there's a certain number
Speaker 1: of babies born every year, but there was a big
Speaker 1: spike after the war, hence the name of the baby boomers.
Speaker 1: What generations have come to me now is like how
Speaker 1: they've been influenced by the culture. Is that what generations are?
Speaker 2: Yes, And so there's all these problems with labeling people
Speaker 2: like that they suppress individuality, they're very static. So like
Speaker 2: a millennial when a millennial was fifteen is probably quite
Speaker 2: different to what a millennial is like now. For instance,
Speaker 2: I now like watching nature documentaries and talking about real estate.
Speaker 2: But when I was fifteen, I was still a millennial.
Speaker 2: I did not enjoy either of those things.
Speaker 1: But isn't that just then what a millennial like? Now
Speaker 1: millennials are all having children, So that's just what millennials
Speaker 1: are doing.
Speaker 3: About a difference between us age rather than generation.
Speaker 5: Yes, So in fact it's brilliant.
Speaker 3: Millennials were seen as this kind of cynical work, obsessed,
Speaker 3: were obsessed generation.
Speaker 2: And halfaway and the devils products exactually a tootemic millennial.
Speaker 5: You're not a writer in reality by ites as yours
Speaker 5: like we.
Speaker 3: Were given this specific personality, and then we grew up
Speaker 3: and faced the housing market, or whether or not we
Speaker 3: were going to have children, all of these things that
Speaker 3: people do in a lifespan, and we responded to those variables.
Speaker 1: But it's different because the generation behind you, which is
Speaker 1: Gen Z, aren't the same as you. They're not obsessed
Speaker 1: with work, they're not the differences between I think that's
Speaker 1: changing too at the same age.
Speaker 2: So back in twenty seventeen, I wrote a big article
Speaker 2: about Gen Z as the most socially progressive generation ever,
Speaker 2: and that was grounded in some social science research that
Speaker 2: was emerging at the time. For instance, they were much
Speaker 2: more accepting of the idea of gender fluidity. They were
Speaker 2: much more into racial justice. They were called sometimes the
Speaker 2: Harry Potter generation, meaning that they wanted to go out
Speaker 2: and avenge the wrongs of the world. But look in
Speaker 2: the recent US election, almost half of young people voted
Speaker 2: for Donald Trump, and that was much higher than it's
Speaker 2: been in previous generations or in previous elections. So the
Speaker 2: idea that we assume that young people are always progressive,
Speaker 2: maybe it's just that young people are always progressive, and
Speaker 2: then as they get older and they face adversity in
Speaker 2: different problems in life.
Speaker 1: They're not progressive because gen z big maga people. Yes,
Speaker 1: I'm being general, but.
Speaker 3: They've grown up a little bit, is the point. And
Speaker 3: what people are saying is that there's datists to suggest
Speaker 3: that as you grow up, you become more risk averse.
Speaker 3: So the idea that you become more conservative as you
Speaker 3: grow older, rather than it being we can look at
Speaker 3: this generation and go, they're going to vote this way.
Speaker 3: How they vote actually can change throughout a lifestyle.
Speaker 1: So then why was the cover story of New York
Speaker 1: magazine all these young, hip gen z maga people.
Speaker 3: Well, the point is, and I think this is what
Speaker 3: they're trying to make that media and marketing has become
Speaker 3: obsessed with generations. Before they even look at the data,
Speaker 3: they've decided what they're going to see, and they're kind
Speaker 3: of projecting these stories onto people that aren't true. So,
Speaker 3: for example, a lot of generations and millennials, gen Z
Speaker 3: is about cultural shifts that happened in the US. Now
Speaker 3: South Korea is using the idea of gen Z. Nothing
Speaker 3: happened in South Korea that was particularly fundamental, So that's
Speaker 3: one problem with it. The second is that it doesn't
Speaker 3: look at variables like class. And that's the big thing
Speaker 3: that we never seem to talk about, is that a
Speaker 3: white middle class millennial is not the same as a
Speaker 3: migrant who lives in a totally different suburb. They don't
Speaker 3: vote the same, they didn't have the same set of
Speaker 3: life experiences to that point.
Speaker 2: Just last week, I can't believe I'm defending boomers, but
Speaker 2: here we are. A report came out and it showed
Speaker 2: that there's a bunch of renting retirees in Australia who
Speaker 2: are living below the poverty line. The actual stat was
Speaker 2: two thirds of renting retirees. You don't think of boomers
Speaker 2: in our discourse, okay, boomer discourse. You don't think of
Speaker 2: them as living below the poverty line, but a lot
Speaker 2: of them are.
Speaker 3: And it's causing a lot of unnecessary tension between generations
Speaker 3: when we might have more things in common than we think,
Speaker 3: and we get this stereotype. So before a gen Z
Speaker 3: walks into the office, you might go, oh, here we go,
Speaker 3: here's another one, and then they do or say something
Speaker 3: and it just sort of reinforces what we already suspect.
Speaker 1: I think it can be a helpful acknowledgment of the
Speaker 1: cultural impact of certain things depending on how old you are.
Speaker 1: That's what it is to me. So for example, I
Speaker 1: looked at this thing about one point zero versus gen
Speaker 1: Z two point zero and the differences with it. One
Speaker 1: point zero graduated high school before COVID and two point
Speaker 1: zero graduated high school after COVID.
Speaker 3: So the demographers in this talking about generations said that
Speaker 3: matters COVID is massive, exactly, And so.
Speaker 1: To say gen Z, like, that's a big impact. And so,
Speaker 1: for example, the relevant cultural events for gen Z who
Speaker 1: graduated high school before COVID were like the Women's March
Speaker 1: and the Climate Strikes Back March and Black Lives Matter
Speaker 1: and all of those things were part of the zeitgeist.
Speaker 1: But for the ones who graduated after COVID, it's more
Speaker 1: about resistance to COVID and masking protocols and more of
Speaker 1: a move towards MAGA and anti cancer.
Speaker 2: And I think that's that's right me and I was
Speaker 2: going back and forth on this topic myself. Another example
Speaker 2: is jen Alpha. They're very young people under the age
Speaker 2: of six or seven. Apparently a lot of them are
Speaker 2: suffering from slow development in gross modor skills and that's
Speaker 2: because when they were meant to be going to playground,
Speaker 2: all the playgrounds were shut.
Speaker 5: Now that's a clear cultural impact. So they were lives.
Speaker 1: You have a whole generation who were in utero and
Speaker 1: then at home. It's kind of like the COVID rescue dogs.
Speaker 1: They're messed up. A generation of dogs that were adopted
Speaker 1: or born during COVID are messed up because they missed
Speaker 1: all of that socialization. So we now see the effects in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, apparently young kids are having problems with toilet training
Speaker 2: because that requires you to involve various gross motor actions
Speaker 2: in your body. They grew up on screens a lot
Speaker 2: more than other kids because their parents were trying to
Speaker 2: work at the same time as the kids were stuck
Speaker 2: at home. All of this meant that there's a sort
Speaker 2: of population wide problem with gross motor skills.
Speaker 3: And so yeah, see that seems a lot more significant
Speaker 3: to me than say, looking at millennials and they say
Speaker 3: the GFC was really you've got early and late millennials.
Speaker 3: When you graduated in proximity to the GFC matters a
Speaker 3: lot in terms of what career choices you made. But
Speaker 3: I would also say add class in there.
Speaker 5: Like that's the way the on the GFC, there's a
Speaker 5: thing about micro generations. Have you come across this concept?
Speaker 2: So my husband graduated from university in two thousand and
Speaker 2: eight and I graduated in two thousand and five.
Speaker 3: See I graduated high school in two thousand and fo. Okay,
Speaker 3: so it's a different yeah, you go.
Speaker 2: So the thing is that between him and me, there's
Speaker 2: three years, but there's a world of difference in terms
Speaker 2: of I entered the workforce when everyone was feeling good.
Speaker 2: First job had a caviar and oyster tower at the
Speaker 2: Christmas Priorty. When he entered the workforce, he said, this
Speaker 2: is not so good. I'm going to go and be
Speaker 2: a professional mover for a few years because there's not
Speaker 2: a lot of jobs available.
Speaker 1: That's so interesting. So those big cultural moments do impact
Speaker 1: on a generation, but I think they impact on a
Speaker 1: generation differently depending on how old you are. So for example,
Speaker 1: for Gen.
Speaker 5: X, yeah, what are your generation?
Speaker 1: Well, AIDS was a big thing and becoming sexually active
Speaker 1: at a time when sex was being portrayed. You know,
Speaker 1: the boomers had free love and by the time the
Speaker 1: millennials came along and were having sex, HIV was not
Speaker 1: seen as a death sentence anymore, and you know, it
Speaker 1: was just a different time. But for us it was
Speaker 1: like our COVID essentially connected to sex.
Speaker 3: I also think that technology and the speed at which
Speaker 3: technology is evolving, is churning out generations at a faster pace,
Speaker 3: because I think there's such a distinction between when you
Speaker 3: got your first phone, what apps you use.
Speaker 2: My daughters sat down in front of the television yesterday
Speaker 2: to pick something on Netflix, and she started, now, this
Speaker 2: is a podcast, but she started scrolling my TV and
Speaker 2: she just knew intuitively how to scroll, and I had
Speaker 2: to explain, sorry, we don't have touchscreen TVs.
Speaker 5: But how did she even learn that?
Speaker 3: Now I'm having the same like lunar and a phone.
Speaker 3: She never sees me pick up a ringing phone. So
Speaker 3: I got a ring ring and she's like, what, that's
Speaker 3: all we have time for today. A big thank you
Speaker 3: to all of you the out louders for listening to
Speaker 3: today's show and our fabulous team for putting it together.
Speaker 3: We will be back in your ears tomorrow. Bye.
Speaker 1: Shout out to any Mum and Maya subscribers listening if
Speaker 1: you love the show and want to support us as well.
Speaker 1: Subscribing to Mama Maya is the very best way to
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