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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Muma Mia acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on. Are you kidding? It's not about the

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Speaker 1: mainstream media. Who cares in twenty twenty five, who's on

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Speaker 1: the Today Show or on sixty minutes. It's about TikTok

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Speaker 1: and Instagram, and there is an algorithm deciding who gets

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Speaker 1: platformed and who goes viral on those.

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Speaker 2: And now, by the way, those platforms are taking away

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Speaker 2: fact checking and are taking away a lot of the

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Speaker 2: layers of authority that they put in place during the

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Speaker 2: pandemic to make sure there wasn't misinformation.

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Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome to Mummy. Are out loud what women

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Speaker 3: are talking about on Monday, the seventeenth of February. I

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Speaker 3: am Jesse Stevens, I'm mea Friedman, and we've got Amelia

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Speaker 3: Lester filling in for Holly today. Amelia introduced herself in

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Speaker 3: ten seconds or less.

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Speaker 2: Hello, I'm a friend of Mia Friedman. I'm an editor

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Speaker 2: at Foreign Policy Magazine and I'm an Australian American who

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Speaker 2: lives in Sydney.

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Speaker 3: I think you should have led with the second part.

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Speaker 2: I know the most important thing in my life is

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Speaker 2: that I'm a friend of the agreement.

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Speaker 1: She's also tertiary educated, which means I now feel officially outnumbered.

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Speaker 3: In terms of the letterboard. You are last. And on

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Speaker 3: the Show Today last week, Louis Theroux interviewed Armie Hammer,

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Speaker 3: who launched into an impassioned dickhead defense. What is the

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Speaker 3: dickhead defense and did it work? Plus the real life

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Speaker 3: characters from Apple Side of Vinegar are coming forward with

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Speaker 3: their own accounts. Do they have a point? And could

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Speaker 3: the Bell Gibson spectacle happen today? And apparently the whole

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Speaker 3: generation thing is a myth, but we are not all convinced.

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Speaker 1: But first, in case you missed it, one of Australia's

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Speaker 1: most successful business women, Kayla Itsines, who is a fitness

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Speaker 1: influencer with an app called Sweat, which she sold for one

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Speaker 1: hundred and fifty million dollars and then bought back for

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Speaker 1: a lot less. She posted a TikTok video last week

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Speaker 1: calling out what she sees as excessive sexualization in the

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Speaker 1: fitness industry. Ladies, put your bums away, She essentially said,

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Speaker 1: stop filming those videos up your bum because I don't

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Speaker 1: want to see that. While I'm having breakfast. That's literally

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Speaker 1: what she said. We can't play you a grab of

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Speaker 1: it because she has since taken it down after a

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Speaker 1: lot of people were very unhappy and called her out

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Speaker 1: for being a hypocrite because.

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Speaker 2: Hasn't she been selling bikini body literally the name bikini

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Speaker 2: body plans for years and.

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Speaker 1: Years She has, indeed, and at the end of this video,

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Speaker 1: when am I missing well the part where I said

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Speaker 1: she was a businesswoman. At the end of this video,

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Speaker 1: she did do a shout out to her own glutes

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Speaker 1: program and say that it was essentially if people didn't

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Speaker 1: want to look up bums but still wanted to have

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Speaker 1: amazing glutes. As she said, she said, she's got a

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Speaker 1: glutes program and if they followed her program then they

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Speaker 1: could just see more modest bottoms and less Still before

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Speaker 1: what she was saying, Jesse, I'm not really across Kayla

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Speaker 1: It scenes, although I do know that this is the

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Speaker 1: reason we launched move because we wanted people to have

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Speaker 1: an option of it not being so appearance focused.

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Speaker 3: I get served a lot of fitness content on Instagram

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Speaker 3: and TikTok, and I have been served Kayla It scenes

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Speaker 3: bick anybody for ten years I'm not sure if she

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Speaker 3: does it anymore, but I distinctly remember the beginning of

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Speaker 3: sort of the fitness industry. The model was his or

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Speaker 3: before and after, and I'm talking ten a day before

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Speaker 3: and after.

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Speaker 1: Wow, you have a lot of body after baby stuff.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, women's bodies, and Kayla is known. I would

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Speaker 3: say that the appearance of her abdominals is central to

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Speaker 3: her marketing. It's really important because you know, it's the

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Speaker 3: illusion of fitness or it makes people it's shorthand to go.

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Speaker 3: I'm really in the same way that Sam Wood often

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Speaker 3: doesn't have a shirt on. I think that fitness is

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Speaker 3: seen as something very visual. So when I heard her

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Speaker 3: talking about the sexualization, I thought, we're all playing the

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Speaker 3: same game here, which is that the algorithm of both

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Speaker 3: is we need attention in order to get people to

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Speaker 3: buy our products.

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Speaker 1: So it's like she's more female gaze, and say the

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Speaker 1: Tammy Hembrowse who have a lot of shots of their

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Speaker 1: bum filmed in those low angles. She talks a lot

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Speaker 1: about low angles, which is just a different vibe. It's

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Speaker 1: more perhaps male gazing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't necessarily have a problem with it, and

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure that it is male gaze because I

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Speaker 3: get served a lot of glute content because I have

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Speaker 3: issues activating my glutes is a personal issue that I have,

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Speaker 3: and I say, TikTok, help me with my glute exercises.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because your legs just connect straight to your.

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Speaker 3: Bag exactly, And so what I need is to And

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Speaker 3: this is my defense of the form fitting because I

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Speaker 3: know what leggings she's talking about.

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Speaker 1: Was she talking about leggings or was she talking about angles?

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Speaker 3: Angles? But she's saying, you can really see the glute being.

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Speaker 1: Act But is that maybe sometimes because the glute is

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Speaker 1: an implant.

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Speaker 3: Well that's a whole other story.

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Speaker 2: Aren't you just saying then that abs are female gaze

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Speaker 2: coded and glutes are male gaze coded.

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Speaker 3: See, I think that the gaze is just everyone's gaze.

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Speaker 3: I think that now that we're just looking at the

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Speaker 3: same I mean, i'd be interested to see the stats

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Speaker 3: about who's following who, But I'm a woman who's looking

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Speaker 3: at a lot of glute centered content. And I think

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Speaker 3: that the reason we have such form hugging clothing in

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Speaker 3: exercise is often because there is a focus on form.

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Speaker 3: There's a focus on this is how you correctly do

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Speaker 3: the pilates, move the weights for the yoga thing, which

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Speaker 3: is what you're being for because you don't want to

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Speaker 3: get injured. So you can't have someone dressed as an

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Speaker 3: Amish person doing a squat because I don't know how

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Speaker 3: your backs arching.

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Speaker 1: Among fitness influences, the trend used to be for a

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Speaker 1: much slimmer body. Kayla, it seems is very much. She's

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Speaker 1: very slim, whereas some of the other fitness influencers that

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Speaker 1: do the booty content, well they've just got really big booties. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so there's a more muscular, a more big bottomed. And

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Speaker 1: the criticisms that she obviously took to heart because she

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Speaker 1: took it down, were that she was hyper critical because

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Speaker 1: she flaunted her body, as the Daily Mail would say,

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Speaker 1: and why is she criticizing other women for how they

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Speaker 1: want to portray their own bodies.

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Speaker 3: Last week, documentarian and podcast Louis Thuru released a podcast

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Speaker 3: episode with actor Armie Hammer that has since gone viral

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Speaker 3: due to the palpable tension that emerged between the two men.

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Speaker 3: You might have seen this clip circulating on social media.

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Speaker 3: Did you have anything else you wanted to say? I

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Speaker 3: should know.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I don't love the way the interview started.

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Speaker 4: Just to be perfectly honest, I'm not crazy about drudging

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Speaker 4: up all of this stuff because for me, a lot

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Speaker 4: of these issues have been resolved, whether it be legally

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Speaker 4: or within myself, and I feel like a lot of

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Speaker 4: those waters have settled. I think doing things like that

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Speaker 4: stirs up the water again unnecessarily. It definitely wasn't my

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Speaker 4: favorite beginning. I'm glad we moved past that and got

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Speaker 4: to a place where we could have a civil, normal

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Speaker 4: conversation like that felt good. But drudging up all that stuff, like,

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Speaker 4: I don't love it.

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Speaker 3: I hear you and I sense that during the chat.

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Speaker 3: I think in the court of public opinion, the jury

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Speaker 3: is still out.

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Speaker 4: But my thing now is like the court of public opinion. Like,

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Speaker 4: pick anything that the court of public opinion has an

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Speaker 4: opinion on, and there's a very good chance that they

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Speaker 4: will not be fully informed. There's a very good chance

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Speaker 4: they don't have the full story, and there's also a

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Speaker 4: very good chance that they're probably wrong.

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Speaker 3: I sent this around when I saw it first thing

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Speaker 3: last week and went, that is the single best podcast

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Speaker 3: trailer I have ever seen. Because I saw that when

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Speaker 3: I need to listen to it immediately let's take a

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Speaker 3: few steps backwards. Because Armie Hammer, who you might know

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Speaker 3: as the Winklevoss Twins in the Social network or he

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Speaker 3: was the lead in Call Me by Your Name opposite

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Speaker 3: Timothy Shallamy, he was accused of sexual emotional and physical assault, rape,

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Speaker 3: and cannibalistic fantasies in early twenty twenty one. Text messages

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Speaker 3: were published at the time that read I'm one hundred

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Speaker 3: percent accnnibal. He expressed a desire to cut off a

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Speaker 3: piece of his partner and eat it, and another text

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Speaker 3: expressed wanting to hold a partner down and rape her.

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Speaker 3: Hamma maintained that these were taken out of context and

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Speaker 3: were part of a sexually charged and consensual back and forth.

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Speaker 3: The charges against him were eventually dropped in twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 3: citing insufficient evidence. Hamma has since spoken about losing every

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Speaker 3: job he had, he was dropped by his agent, he

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Speaker 3: was shunned by friends, and he's talked about the emotional

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Speaker 3: toll that the allegations took on him. And now in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty five, he is sitting opposite Louis and I'm

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Speaker 3: going to give you the headlines from the interview. If

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Speaker 3: you haven't listened.

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Speaker 1: Amy has a podcast of his own, doesn't he does?

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Speaker 1: Mum he does?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, released it last year. Remember his mum bought him

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Speaker 3: a phaseectomy.

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Speaker 1: That was so kind. Do you think he's now just

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Speaker 1: a lot of people have been talking about he's coming back,

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Speaker 1: and there's no such thing as cancelation. I imagine he's

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Speaker 1: been on peas Morgan. Do you think he just is like,

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Speaker 1: I've just got to talk about it. I'm just going

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Speaker 1: to own it. I'm going to lean into it, and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about it until it's not interesting

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Speaker 1: to people anymore.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I think so. I think he probably had two choices.

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Speaker 3: I mean, he did retreat for a significant period of time,

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Speaker 3: But the biggest thing is in a moment, he's going

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Speaker 3: to have movies to promote, so he can't just come out.

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Speaker 3: And I think when he promotes the movies, he probably

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Speaker 3: wants to promote the movie.

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Speaker 1: So he's working again.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. Is he getting cars?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he said he's getting offers every day.

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Speaker 1: Okay, interesting.

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Speaker 3: So these were the headlines from the interview. He admitted

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Speaker 3: to having an affair while still married to his wife,

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Speaker 3: but said that people in happy marriages don't have affairs.

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Speaker 3: He said only one side of the text. Conversations were leaked,

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Speaker 3: meaning that they would devoid of context. He talked about

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Speaker 3: intergenerational trauma. His grandfather was accused of killing a man

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Speaker 3: of sexually abusing his daughter. There's a documentary called The

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Speaker 3: House of Hammer about the history of the family. He

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Speaker 3: says the scandal was the greatest thing that ever happened

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Speaker 3: to him. It forced him to get sober. He didn't

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Speaker 3: recognize who he had become, and he denies, ultimately that

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Speaker 3: he was guilty of anything that resembled a crime. Ultimately,

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Speaker 3: he used what hollywould call the dickhead defense. He was

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Speaker 3: a bad person, radicalized by fame and money and pornography

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Speaker 3: and access to anything he wanted All the time, he

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Speaker 3: treated people badly, women his wife. He says that like Icarus,

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Speaker 3: he flew too close to the sun, but he was

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Speaker 3: not guilty of abuse. Maya does the dickhead defense work.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was a really interesting interview to listen to.

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Speaker 1: I'm not all the way through it, but I think

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Speaker 1: that when you call yourself a dickhead, you show two things. Firstly,

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Speaker 1: there's humility in there, and secondly, there's self awareness. And

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Speaker 1: I think implicit in that is an apology of sorts,

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Speaker 1: because what we know is that no matter what you do,

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Speaker 1: however you apologize, will be critiqued and found wanting by

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Speaker 1: the apology police. And the other time that I can

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Speaker 1: think that this really really worked. Although the two things

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Speaker 1: aren't comparable. But Karl Stefanovic a number of years ago

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Speaker 1: used an offensive term for a marginalized group of people

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Speaker 1: and there was a big backlash about it, and the

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Speaker 1: next day on the Today Show he said, I was

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Speaker 1: a tool. I really shouldn't have used that word. Now

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Speaker 1: I understand, I won't use it again. And by calling

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Speaker 1: himself out so strongly, he sort of left no room

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Speaker 1: for people to come at him anymore. And it worked.

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Speaker 3: Have you ever seen a woman do it?

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Speaker 1: Never?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 3: God, no, I don't think a woman can use it

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Speaker 3: acad defense Amelia, do you think it works well.

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Speaker 2: One thing that I thought was so interesting about that grab,

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Speaker 2: which I assume was the most interesting part of the interview,

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Speaker 2: is that it reminded me of this phenomenon that doctors

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Speaker 2: describe as the doorstop question.

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Speaker 5: Oh have you heard of that?

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Speaker 2: So apparently when you go and see the doctor, they

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Speaker 2: know that you're basically going to sort of fluff your

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Speaker 2: way through the actual consultation, and then as you stand

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Speaker 2: up on the way out, you go just one other thing,

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Speaker 2: and then that often turns out to be the thing

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Speaker 2: that is wrong with you, or you know, you might

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Speaker 2: have a mole that you That's how I almost get

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Speaker 2: cancer removed.

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Speaker 3: We're standing and walking out of the room going actually while.

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Speaker 2: I'm here, doorstop question Mia. In No Filter interviews, would

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Speaker 2: you always ask people is there anything else you want

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Speaker 2: to say? That kind of like cleaning up question in

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Speaker 2: the air?

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Speaker 1: Never? I never ever would. Maybe I probably should have.

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Speaker 1: That's really I think it's a little.

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Speaker 2: Bit of a lifetack in general, because if you're having

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Speaker 2: a conversation with someone, it takes time to warm up

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Speaker 2: to the actual meat of it. I think, sorry, that

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Speaker 2: was bad given the cannibal discussion.

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Speaker 3: I think that that's specific to this type of interview

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Speaker 3: right because Louis, I think this is season four or

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Speaker 3: season five of his podcast, and it has in terms

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Speaker 3: of charting, it's not really been working. I listened to

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Speaker 3: a few of them and I stopped because I don't

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Speaker 3: think Louis Threux is a celebrity interviewer.

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Speaker 1: He's not.

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Speaker 3: It's not where he's best.

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Speaker 1: He's best talking to weird people about weird thing.

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Speaker 3: He is a subculture journalist, like that's where he got

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Speaker 3: his experience, and he is so skilled at sitting with

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Speaker 3: someone and giving them space and playing the idiot.

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Speaker 1: And but it's also not just about him. It's celebrities

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Speaker 1: have gotten so good at this, and they've all got

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Speaker 1: their own podcasts. Yeah, they don't need to give you anything.

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Speaker 1: Whereas real people are less guarded, they have less to lose.

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Speaker 1: They're also just more interesting. They're not media trained. And

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Speaker 1: back to your original question, Jesse, do I think it worked? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I guess it did work because I came away from

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Speaker 1: that podcast interview thinking was he a dickhead? Is he

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Speaker 1: still a dickhead? Absolutely? Is he a cannibal? And all

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Speaker 1: of the things that I actually had believed that he was.

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Speaker 3: No, it's interesting you use two terms. The first was

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Speaker 3: you said it shows some humility. I do not see

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Speaker 3: one ioda of humility in that manner.

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Speaker 1: No, I think it for him, I think it shows

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Speaker 1: false humility. Ah, that's why. So I think that's why

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Speaker 1: it's a defense. I don't think it's always effective, and

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Speaker 1: I don't think he came across as having humility at all,

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Speaker 1: But I think if it's done right, like with Karl Stefanovic,

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Speaker 1: it worked because it did show humility.

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Speaker 3: You also said that it was a type of apology,

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Speaker 3: which was interesting given you can scrape this entire interview

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Speaker 3: and you will not find anything that is a semblance

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Speaker 3: of an apology.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's angry.

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Speaker 2: There's also a semblance of truth in what he said, too,

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Speaker 2: which is when he talked about the court of public opinion.

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Speaker 2: And it's true that the court of public opinion can

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Speaker 2: linger long beyond.

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Speaker 5: The actual courts.

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Speaker 2: And it brought to mind a case that happened in

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Speaker 2: twenty twelve in New York a cannibal cop. Have you

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Speaker 2: heard of this, Jesse Nature Crime Explorations. There was an

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Speaker 2: NPD officer named Gilberto Valet and he was arrested because

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Speaker 2: he had been on online forums talking about roasting women,

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Speaker 2: cooking women, eating women. He was stood down from his

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Speaker 2: job at the NYPD, but the criminal charges were dropped.

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Speaker 2: The judge said, look, you clearly have a diseased mind,

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Speaker 2: that was the phrase he used, but you haven't committed

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Speaker 2: any crimes. And his lawyers had been arguing that all

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Speaker 2: along that he was just exploring these sexual fantasies online.

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Speaker 2: It seems to me that there's a bit of a

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Speaker 2: parallel here with Army and the idea of minority report,

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Speaker 2: that old Tom Cruise movie. If you haven't actually done something,

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Speaker 2: and here I'm just talking about the cannibalism charges, how

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Speaker 2: do you ever escape it?

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Speaker 3: Yes? And the question is, then what's worse is being

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Speaker 3: tired with the brush that you're a bad person or

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Speaker 3: that you're a dickhead, better or worse, and being tired

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Speaker 3: with the brush that you're a criminal. And what I

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Speaker 3: found interesting about the dickhead defense was that I thought,

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Speaker 3: I think I would rather own having committed a crime

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Speaker 3: than being a bad person. But there are many men

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Speaker 3: in Hollywood who seem happy to sit there and go

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Speaker 3: I'm a piece of shit, I'm a terrible person.

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Speaker 1: Because that's their path back to employment and reintegration into society.

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Speaker 1: Whereas for a woman to say that she ain't coming back,

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Speaker 1: like that's not a path back, I think it's completely calculated.

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Speaker 3: It makes it so clear where our line is in

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Speaker 3: terms of do you have permission to re enter? Did

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Speaker 3: you go to even if you went to prison. You

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Speaker 3: did serve your time, and we'll let them back in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: But for women like I just thought about Ellen or whatever.

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Speaker 3: I thought, if she stood and she made a few

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Speaker 3: jokes and stuff, but if she stood there and went, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I was a selfish piece of shit who treated everyone poorly,

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Speaker 3: we'd have gone it just doesn't work. But for him,

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Speaker 3: even the affair, I thought only affair, and he said, well,

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Speaker 3: you know, you don't have an affair if your marriage

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Speaker 3: is going well. And I was like, oh, you're even

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Speaker 3: blaming her for the affair.

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Speaker 1: What I took away from it was that he was

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Speaker 1: wanting to clarify. It's like, the word out there is

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Speaker 1: that I'm accountable. I'm not. The word out there is

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Speaker 1: that all of these things were non consensual. I'm saying

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Speaker 1: they are now Again it's him against her, he said,

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Speaker 1: she said, But he was still providing that context that

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Speaker 1: you hear in people who feel misunderstood, and he says

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Speaker 1: that he feels very misunderstood.

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Speaker 3: One of the most interesting parts of the interview I

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Speaker 3: thought was the question about Woody Allen.

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Speaker 1: If Woody Allen offered you a role in his new movie,

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Speaker 1: would you take it?

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Speaker 4: Would I work with Woody Allen. I mean at this point,

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Speaker 4: I don't know that I buy into any of the

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Speaker 4: cancel we need to dis and that like I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I know that this is like a trick question,

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Speaker 4: and I know there's no right way to answer this question.

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Speaker 4: But I think I think it's well no, because like

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Speaker 4: if I say.

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Speaker 1: No, it is a trick question. I think louis really

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Speaker 1: ques brilliant, but it is a trick question. Louis being

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Speaker 1: disingenuous there.

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Speaker 3: He was basically speaking to how there does appear to

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Speaker 3: be a line being drawn down Hollywood, And he goes

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Speaker 3: on to ask, oh, also in that movie is Kevin

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Speaker 3: Spacey and Harvey Weinstein's producing it?

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Speaker 2: This movie is going to happen right the way that's

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Speaker 2: coming out next to you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and everyone's going to go and say everyone, And

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Speaker 3: what he's saying is, have you been so radicalized by

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Speaker 3: your cancelation that you now go everyone's mad. Let's just

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Speaker 3: kind of put myself in the camp with the other

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Speaker 3: men who have been canceled. And I thought he had

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Speaker 3: quite a fair answer to that, which is I'd want

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Speaker 3: to sit down with Woody Allen first. I mean, we

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Speaker 3: all know that that's not going to reveal everything, but

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Speaker 3: that he just knows that a lot of what is

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Speaker 3: being said isn't necessarily the truth of someone who he says,

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Speaker 3: has experienced that.

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Speaker 2: I think we are seeing a big backlash to the

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Speaker 2: late Orts cancelation era.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, so many of the people, even in Trump's cabinet,

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Speaker 2: are people who used to be on the Democratic side

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Speaker 2: of politics who got canceled and then said, well, I'm

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Speaker 2: seeking revenge. I'm joining Trump's cabinet.

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Speaker 3: That's true. I think of the moment, there's a Trump

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Speaker 3: theme here. I agree. After the break some updates on

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Speaker 3: the Bell Gibson story. One week after the release of

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Speaker 3: Apple Side of Vinegar.

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Speaker 1: It's been a week since the new series Apple Side

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Speaker 1: of Vinegar has been released on Netflix, and it has

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Speaker 1: sparked global attention from people discovering this story for the

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Speaker 1: first time from around the world. And also there've been

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Speaker 1: quite a few developments from people who are associated with

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Speaker 1: this story in real life. The family of Jessinskoff, who

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Speaker 1: who is the wellness influencer who's portrayed in the show

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Speaker 1: as Miller Blake heavily inspired by Jess's story, but her

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Speaker 1: family have come out her father in particular, and said

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Speaker 1: that it's just not true. There are a lot of

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Speaker 1: inaccuracies in the way.

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Speaker 3: What does he say are the inaccuracy Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So he says that the main inaccuracy is that Jess

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Speaker 1: and Bell Gibson were friends. And Talon Parmenter, who is

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Speaker 1: Jess's former fiance, has also come out and said that

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Speaker 1: same thing. And I think what's really important for people

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Speaker 1: to understand because I watched that story happen as it

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Speaker 1: happened in real life to Jess. They're not disputing the

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Speaker 1: medical side, so nobody knows exactly what her medical history is.

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Speaker 1: And that's frankly not so much how business, except for

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Speaker 1: what she told us through her Instagram, and she was

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Speaker 1: very open and honest about saying that at the end

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Speaker 1: she wished that she'd listened to doctors earlier on in

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Speaker 1: her journey. The other person who's come out this week

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Speaker 1: is Richard Gilliat, who says that he was the one,

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Speaker 1: and indeed he was. He's a journalist from The Australian.

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Speaker 1: He broke the original story and revealed the moment that

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Speaker 1: Bell Gibson's lies began unraveling, and he also said that

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Speaker 1: what he thought was most different about the way Bell

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Speaker 1: was portrayed versus his experience of her, and he did

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Speaker 1: interview her a number of times, is that he said

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Speaker 1: she was portrayed as this quite conniving, successful scammer, and

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Speaker 1: he said that she was actually terrible. She was terrible

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Speaker 1: at covering her tracks. It was a time before people

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Speaker 1: would dig online, so she didn't have to be as

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Speaker 1: good as she would have had to be today. But

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Speaker 1: he said she was actually a really bad liar and

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Speaker 1: there were always big holes in her story. It's just

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Speaker 1: that nobody really looked into them at the time. The

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Speaker 1: Victorian premier Justinto Allan has come out and said that

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Speaker 1: consumer Affairs Victoria, who is owed hundreds of thousands of

434
00:21:00,942 --> 00:21:04,141
Speaker 1: dollars from a fine Bell Gibson, was given back in

435
00:21:04,222 --> 00:21:07,141
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen. It's now over half a million dollars that

436
00:21:07,222 --> 00:21:09,862
Speaker 1: she ownes with penalties. Just Cintra Allen has said that

437
00:21:09,942 --> 00:21:12,821
Speaker 1: they will continue pursuing that debt, and it was also

438
00:21:12,861 --> 00:21:16,901
Speaker 1: recently revealed that Belle has split from her longtime partner

439
00:21:16,901 --> 00:21:20,381
Speaker 1: Clive Rothwell, who is portrayed in the show, and also

440
00:21:20,462 --> 00:21:23,581
Speaker 1: claims that she still can't afford to pay her fines.

441
00:21:24,341 --> 00:21:28,381
Speaker 1: What we were thinking about is could Belle Gibson happen

442
00:21:28,621 --> 00:21:31,901
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five or was that a moment in

443
00:21:31,942 --> 00:21:35,782
Speaker 1: time and we've all learned our lesson about wellness scammers? Amelia?

444
00:21:35,821 --> 00:21:36,462
Speaker 1: What do you think?

445
00:21:36,702 --> 00:21:38,661
Speaker 2: One thing they thought was really interesting in that Richard

446
00:21:38,661 --> 00:21:40,981
Speaker 2: Gilliad story was that he pointed out this was the

447
00:21:41,101 --> 00:21:43,622
Speaker 2: very beginning of the wellness movement. He said that when

448
00:21:43,621 --> 00:21:46,902
Speaker 2: he started reporting on that he had never written anything

449
00:21:46,901 --> 00:21:48,142
Speaker 2: about wellness before.

450
00:21:48,262 --> 00:21:51,101
Speaker 1: Can you imagine, Yeah, well, a man working at a

451
00:21:51,101 --> 00:21:54,861
Speaker 1: broadsheet and mainstream media, right, so at the time.

452
00:21:54,782 --> 00:21:57,182
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was have a different era, but.

453
00:21:57,182 --> 00:22:00,182
Speaker 1: No one was really willing to call it out at

454
00:22:00,182 --> 00:22:02,542
Speaker 1: the time because, especially when someone came out and said

455
00:22:02,542 --> 00:22:06,142
Speaker 1: they had cancer, you can't ask for someone's medical records.

456
00:22:06,222 --> 00:22:09,821
Speaker 1: It didn't occur to people that lies were being told

457
00:22:09,982 --> 00:22:12,821
Speaker 1: or that they were going to necessarily have tragic ends.

458
00:22:12,901 --> 00:22:15,822
Speaker 1: Everyone was just sort of watching this slow moving car accident.

459
00:22:15,982 --> 00:22:18,901
Speaker 2: It got me thinking more broadly about the trajectory of

460
00:22:18,942 --> 00:22:21,341
Speaker 2: the wellness movement, because if you assume it sort of

461
00:22:21,422 --> 00:22:25,102
Speaker 2: started around twenty ten, let's say, and then it kind

462
00:22:25,141 --> 00:22:28,902
Speaker 2: of reached its climax, if you will, during the pandemic

463
00:22:29,581 --> 00:22:33,901
Speaker 2: when we had this actual public health emergency, and suddenly

464
00:22:33,982 --> 00:22:37,782
Speaker 2: thinking about our fourteen stepskin care routines and the optimal

465
00:22:37,821 --> 00:22:40,542
Speaker 2: way to tone our abs might have seemed irrelevant. But

466
00:22:40,702 --> 00:22:44,102
Speaker 2: if anything, I think it caused more people to embrace

467
00:22:44,141 --> 00:22:46,262
Speaker 2: the idea that their body was the only thing they

468
00:22:46,302 --> 00:22:48,901
Speaker 2: could control in this completely out of control moment.

469
00:22:48,982 --> 00:22:51,221
Speaker 1: Well, that was Pete Evans' time, right when he was

470
00:22:51,262 --> 00:22:54,581
Speaker 1: selling those health lamps and the bone broth, and when

471
00:22:54,581 --> 00:22:56,302
Speaker 1: he sort of imploded. Do you think a lot of

472
00:22:56,861 --> 00:23:01,861
Speaker 1: people who were perhaps interested in alternate medicine became radicalized

473
00:23:01,942 --> 00:23:03,022
Speaker 1: during COVID Yeah.

474
00:23:03,061 --> 00:23:05,421
Speaker 2: I think that what happened was that when the world

475
00:23:05,462 --> 00:23:08,622
Speaker 2: became more out of control, people realized, well, I can

476
00:23:08,702 --> 00:23:11,581
Speaker 2: make sure I e five servings of fruit and vegetables

477
00:23:11,621 --> 00:23:14,222
Speaker 2: every day, and I can make sure that I get

478
00:23:14,222 --> 00:23:17,182
Speaker 2: my body into optimal shape. And that idea of optimization,

479
00:23:17,302 --> 00:23:19,622
Speaker 2: which came to us via Silicon Valley but then sort

480
00:23:19,621 --> 00:23:22,381
Speaker 2: of trickled down into the wellness industry, I think was

481
00:23:22,422 --> 00:23:24,462
Speaker 2: a big part of that. That idea of making sure

482
00:23:24,502 --> 00:23:27,302
Speaker 2: that every part of your life serves a purpose and

483
00:23:27,341 --> 00:23:29,662
Speaker 2: your body is running like a well oiled machine.

484
00:23:29,702 --> 00:23:31,742
Speaker 1: So it almost seems like an absurd question to ask

485
00:23:31,782 --> 00:23:35,262
Speaker 1: you when over the weekend the new health secretary in

486
00:23:35,302 --> 00:23:39,661
Speaker 1: America was sworn in and it's rfk Jr.

487
00:23:39,942 --> 00:23:40,742
Speaker 5: Yes, So, Robert F.

488
00:23:40,821 --> 00:23:43,502
Speaker 2: Kennedy Jr. Is now Donald Trump's new Health and Human

489
00:23:43,542 --> 00:23:47,381
Speaker 2: Services Secretary. It's interesting because in his confirmation hearings, he

490
00:23:47,462 --> 00:23:49,621
Speaker 2: was asked a lot of questions about whether he believes

491
00:23:49,661 --> 00:23:52,822
Speaker 2: in vaccines, and he kept saying that, yeah, he's actually

492
00:23:52,861 --> 00:23:55,101
Speaker 2: fine with them. The way that he would make an

493
00:23:55,101 --> 00:23:57,302
Speaker 2: official distinction is that he thinks that people should make

494
00:23:57,341 --> 00:24:00,622
Speaker 2: their own choices about vaccines. Now, of course that kind

495
00:24:00,661 --> 00:24:03,861
Speaker 2: of undercuts the whole purpose of vaccines, which has herd immunity.

496
00:24:03,901 --> 00:24:06,662
Speaker 2: But Caroline Kennedy, his cousin, came out with a video

497
00:24:06,942 --> 00:24:10,022
Speaker 2: before his hearing where she said he vaccinates his kids.

498
00:24:10,422 --> 00:24:12,022
Speaker 5: It's just that he's decided that.

499
00:24:12,061 --> 00:24:15,421
Speaker 2: It's financially lucrative for him to profit off these families

500
00:24:15,462 --> 00:24:18,622
Speaker 2: with sick children and basically scare manger about the health

501
00:24:18,621 --> 00:24:22,661
Speaker 2: effects of vaccines. Broadly speaking, I think that his appointment

502
00:24:22,742 --> 00:24:25,942
Speaker 2: really shows that the Make America Healthy Again movement has

503
00:24:26,182 --> 00:24:30,621
Speaker 2: fully taken flight. Are you familiar with this basically like Maha, Yeah, MAHA.

504
00:24:30,661 --> 00:24:35,222
Speaker 2: So basically, it really emphasizes integrative and holistic medicine, reducing

505
00:24:35,302 --> 00:24:38,742
Speaker 2: environmental pollution, eating healthy. Look, all of this sounds great, obviously,

506
00:24:38,782 --> 00:24:41,302
Speaker 2: I don't think anyone at this table would disagree that

507
00:24:41,341 --> 00:24:43,262
Speaker 2: those are worthy goals. But I think there is a

508
00:24:43,341 --> 00:24:46,261
Speaker 2: darker side to it, which says, your health is solely

509
00:24:46,302 --> 00:24:49,181
Speaker 2: your responsibility. The government needs to get out of helping

510
00:24:49,222 --> 00:24:51,501
Speaker 2: you live a healthy life, and if you get an

511
00:24:51,502 --> 00:24:54,222
Speaker 2: illness or a disease, it's kind of on you. And

512
00:24:54,381 --> 00:24:56,941
Speaker 2: one example of that is that at his hearing he

513
00:24:57,101 --> 00:25:00,221
Speaker 2: said that we should study the origins of chronic illness

514
00:25:00,262 --> 00:25:04,141
Speaker 2: over researching infectious diseases. Now, I think that most people,

515
00:25:04,302 --> 00:25:06,782
Speaker 2: certainly most scientists, would probably say we should do both.

516
00:25:07,182 --> 00:25:10,382
Speaker 2: Let's figure out how to fix obesity and make sure

517
00:25:10,422 --> 00:25:12,462
Speaker 2: that we prevent the next airborne pandemic.

518
00:25:12,861 --> 00:25:15,341
Speaker 3: What Apple Side of Vinegar did so well that I

519
00:25:15,381 --> 00:25:19,142
Speaker 3: think actually plays perfectly into this MAHA moment is that

520
00:25:19,462 --> 00:25:23,662
Speaker 3: the wellness movement and the MAHA movement both have a point,

521
00:25:23,982 --> 00:25:27,742
Speaker 3: like they have a real point. And Jess's family coming

522
00:25:27,742 --> 00:25:30,542
Speaker 3: out and saying don't put her alongside Bell Gibson. I

523
00:25:30,542 --> 00:25:32,981
Speaker 3: think that's fair because Jess really had cancer, and that's

524
00:25:33,022 --> 00:25:35,101
Speaker 3: what they're trying to say too, And that is a

525
00:25:35,141 --> 00:25:38,381
Speaker 3: totally different thing the wellness movement. People who talk about

526
00:25:38,581 --> 00:25:42,621
Speaker 3: holistic or alternative remedies aren't lying about their health conditions.

527
00:25:42,661 --> 00:25:43,422
Speaker 3: That's like a.

528
00:25:43,381 --> 00:25:45,421
Speaker 1: Separate thing, but it was some of them are.

529
00:25:45,901 --> 00:25:49,582
Speaker 3: It's a total anomaly like that someone would lie about it.

530
00:25:49,982 --> 00:25:51,702
Speaker 3: I think the question of whether or not it would

531
00:25:51,702 --> 00:25:53,982
Speaker 3: happen today is an interesting one because I keep seeing

532
00:25:54,022 --> 00:25:57,501
Speaker 3: a lot of commentary and criticism about the role that

533
00:25:57,502 --> 00:25:58,421
Speaker 3: the media played in this.

534
00:25:58,861 --> 00:26:01,222
Speaker 1: But hang on, don't we have these We just had

535
00:26:01,422 --> 00:26:05,742
Speaker 1: an Australian influencer parenting influencer arrested a couple of weeks

536
00:26:05,782 --> 00:26:10,662
Speaker 1: ago for faking an illness allegedly allegedly in her child

537
00:26:11,341 --> 00:26:13,701
Speaker 1: and actually allegedly harming her child.

538
00:26:13,942 --> 00:26:16,421
Speaker 3: So in that way, the onus, I think has to

539
00:26:16,462 --> 00:26:19,861
Speaker 3: be on the media in terms of what they platform

540
00:26:19,861 --> 00:26:22,141
Speaker 3: and doing their due diligence. If you've got someone on

541
00:26:22,182 --> 00:26:25,061
Speaker 3: your morning TV show saying that each how do you do.

542
00:26:25,061 --> 00:26:27,542
Speaker 5: That, Jesse? Do you ask them for their medical record? Well,

543
00:26:27,581 --> 00:26:28,222
Speaker 5: this is what I mean.

544
00:26:28,341 --> 00:26:31,381
Speaker 3: If they're sitting there saying you should do a coffee enema,

545
00:26:31,502 --> 00:26:34,022
Speaker 3: it'll cure your cancer, whether or not they have cancer.

546
00:26:34,061 --> 00:26:36,302
Speaker 3: I don't think you should platform them because every scientist

547
00:26:36,381 --> 00:26:39,621
Speaker 3: in the country will tell you that's not true. But

548
00:26:40,341 --> 00:26:43,061
Speaker 3: we cannot. And this is something I don't know it

549
00:26:43,061 --> 00:26:47,062
Speaker 3: comes up in the show, but there is patient doctor confidentiality.

550
00:26:47,101 --> 00:26:49,862
Speaker 3: We cannot access people's health records. If someone comes out

551
00:26:49,861 --> 00:26:51,941
Speaker 3: and says, if Bell Gibson emerges now and says she

552
00:26:51,982 --> 00:26:55,141
Speaker 3: has cancer, we can't prove or disprove that what n

553
00:26:55,742 --> 00:26:59,141
Speaker 3: did this whole case was actually following the money. And

554
00:26:59,621 --> 00:27:01,422
Speaker 3: one of the things I was most surprised to learn

555
00:27:01,502 --> 00:27:04,181
Speaker 3: was about the five year old boy who in real

556
00:27:04,222 --> 00:27:07,581
Speaker 3: life she pledged to give him an enormous amount of

557
00:27:07,581 --> 00:27:10,222
Speaker 3: money for surgery. And that was true, and that was true,

558
00:27:10,222 --> 00:27:12,341
Speaker 3: and she never gave it to him, and he died.

559
00:27:12,702 --> 00:27:17,101
Speaker 1: What Jess's father and former fiance have objected to, again

560
00:27:17,302 --> 00:27:21,222
Speaker 1: is not so much the portrayal of her medical story,

561
00:27:21,702 --> 00:27:25,061
Speaker 1: but it's the idea that she was somehow parallel to

562
00:27:25,141 --> 00:27:28,181
Speaker 1: Bell Gibson, that she cared about Bell Gibson, that she

563
00:27:28,341 --> 00:27:30,741
Speaker 1: wanted to enact revenge on Bell Gibson. At the end

564
00:27:30,742 --> 00:27:33,181
Speaker 1: of her life. None of that happened, and I have

565
00:27:33,262 --> 00:27:35,622
Speaker 1: to say, I wasn't aware of any of that sort

566
00:27:35,661 --> 00:27:36,582
Speaker 1: of connection, which.

567
00:27:36,422 --> 00:27:40,181
Speaker 3: Is why Mila was understood to be an amalgamation of

568
00:27:40,222 --> 00:27:43,141
Speaker 3: a few different people and wasn't given the real life

569
00:27:43,222 --> 00:27:45,022
Speaker 3: name of Jess. And so I think we've got to

570
00:27:45,061 --> 00:27:46,662
Speaker 3: be really careful in talking about it.

571
00:27:47,262 --> 00:27:49,542
Speaker 1: Belle wanted to be like Jess, like that part is

572
00:27:49,581 --> 00:27:51,902
Speaker 1: true clearly because Jess was much more famous.

573
00:27:52,182 --> 00:27:54,302
Speaker 3: Yes, but we have to be careful to not say

574
00:27:54,302 --> 00:27:56,821
Speaker 3: that Mila is Jess because she's not.

575
00:27:57,141 --> 00:27:59,821
Speaker 1: Belle did turn up at Jess's funeral, though, that's true.

576
00:27:59,982 --> 00:28:02,861
Speaker 2: Just back on that question of whether it can happen again, though, Jesse,

577
00:28:02,982 --> 00:28:05,181
Speaker 2: I think you made a really interesting point, which is

578
00:28:05,222 --> 00:28:10,182
Speaker 2: that people are feeling tired, exhausted, run down, stressed, anxious,

579
00:28:10,262 --> 00:28:15,022
Speaker 2: can't sleep. That's been happening ever since we got smartphones, basically, yeah,

580
00:28:15,061 --> 00:28:16,742
Speaker 2: and we're searching for solutions.

581
00:28:16,782 --> 00:28:22,702
Speaker 3: And the conspiracy that institutions, that governments, that pharmaceutical companies,

582
00:28:23,222 --> 00:28:26,462
Speaker 3: you know what we eat, is making us sick. It's

583
00:28:26,542 --> 00:28:31,581
Speaker 3: not totally a conspiracy, the pharmaceutical industry in the US especially,

584
00:28:31,621 --> 00:28:35,222
Speaker 3: it's a for profit medical system. I watched a movie

585
00:28:35,262 --> 00:28:39,222
Speaker 3: recently called Dark Waters with Mark Ruffalo about a company

586
00:28:39,382 --> 00:28:41,741
Speaker 3: that put toxic chemicals in its water supply, and this

587
00:28:41,862 --> 00:28:45,862
Speaker 3: whole town people were getting cancers and autoimmune diseases. The

588
00:28:45,902 --> 00:28:50,022
Speaker 3: erosion of trust in institutions is real and justified.

589
00:28:50,462 --> 00:28:54,662
Speaker 1: In Australia, they've been finding certain chemicals in dams. Back

590
00:28:54,702 --> 00:28:57,102
Speaker 1: to the point of could it happen today? And when

591
00:28:57,142 --> 00:28:59,461
Speaker 1: you said about the mainstream media needs to be careful

592
00:28:59,462 --> 00:29:02,822
Speaker 1: who they platform, are you kidding? It's not about the

593
00:29:02,862 --> 00:29:05,622
Speaker 1: mainstream media. Who cares in twenty twenty five, who's on

594
00:29:05,661 --> 00:29:09,302
Speaker 1: the Today Show or on sixty minutes. It's about TikTok

595
00:29:09,582 --> 00:29:13,582
Speaker 1: on Instagram, and there is an algorithm deciding who gets

596
00:29:13,622 --> 00:29:16,421
Speaker 1: platformed and who goes viral on those.

597
00:29:16,582 --> 00:29:19,181
Speaker 2: And now, by the way, those platforms are taking away

598
00:29:19,222 --> 00:29:21,822
Speaker 2: fact checking and are taking away a lot of the

599
00:29:21,942 --> 00:29:25,261
Speaker 2: layers of authority that they put in place during the

600
00:29:25,262 --> 00:29:27,382
Speaker 2: pandemic to make sure there wasn't misinformation.

601
00:29:27,822 --> 00:29:32,261
Speaker 1: But to their credit, those platforms also have amateus looths.

602
00:29:32,982 --> 00:29:35,502
Speaker 1: And so I think that everything that happened in the

603
00:29:35,661 --> 00:29:38,102
Speaker 1: portrayal of the other thing that the reporter from The

604
00:29:38,102 --> 00:29:41,022
Speaker 1: Australian said is that his wife actually had breast cancer

605
00:29:41,062 --> 00:29:44,342
Speaker 1: and he really resented that being grafted onto the story

606
00:29:44,342 --> 00:29:46,702
Speaker 1: of the two guys from the age who do exist

607
00:29:46,782 --> 00:29:50,142
Speaker 1: as well, but again they were all fictionalized. I think

608
00:29:50,142 --> 00:29:52,462
Speaker 1: that TikTok would do this lou thing, so it's kind

609
00:29:52,502 --> 00:29:55,862
Speaker 1: of like it couldn't happen again, but it already is.

610
00:29:56,022 --> 00:29:59,022
Speaker 2: We're all hungry for the magic bullet, for the solution

611
00:29:59,222 --> 00:30:02,622
Speaker 2: to our general feelings of malise and exhaustion, and I

612
00:30:02,622 --> 00:30:04,822
Speaker 2: think we're going to keep looking for that as long

613
00:30:04,862 --> 00:30:08,182
Speaker 2: as these big institutions are declining in front of our

614
00:30:08,302 --> 00:30:11,462
Speaker 2: very eyes. Are you always thinking about your next meal

615
00:30:11,542 --> 00:30:13,902
Speaker 2: or snack? I am. I think that everyone in the

616
00:30:13,902 --> 00:30:16,622
Speaker 2: world can be divided into two categories. People who are

617
00:30:16,661 --> 00:30:18,542
Speaker 2: thinking about what they're going to eat next, and people

618
00:30:18,582 --> 00:30:20,421
Speaker 2: who think that there should be a pill for food

619
00:30:20,422 --> 00:30:21,142
Speaker 2: and you never have to do.

620
00:30:21,302 --> 00:30:21,701
Speaker 1: That's it.

621
00:30:21,782 --> 00:30:22,582
Speaker 3: I'm in that category.

622
00:30:22,661 --> 00:30:23,582
Speaker 5: What do you mean there is?

623
00:30:23,622 --> 00:30:25,102
Speaker 1: It's called weight loss drugs.

624
00:30:25,142 --> 00:30:27,941
Speaker 3: No, as in like I wish that I could just

625
00:30:27,982 --> 00:30:29,701
Speaker 3: have a cup of sludge a day, but had on

626
00:30:29,702 --> 00:30:30,382
Speaker 3: my nutrients.

627
00:30:30,422 --> 00:30:32,782
Speaker 1: Oh, I fall somewhere in the middle.

628
00:30:33,022 --> 00:30:34,742
Speaker 2: I'm one of those people who looks at the menu

629
00:30:34,782 --> 00:30:37,181
Speaker 2: of a restaurant before I go to decide exactly what

630
00:30:37,302 --> 00:30:37,982
Speaker 2: I'm going to order.

631
00:30:37,982 --> 00:30:39,782
Speaker 3: See, I'm the one who sits there and goes you order.

632
00:30:39,782 --> 00:30:41,261
Speaker 5: I'll just pick anyway.

633
00:30:41,262 --> 00:30:43,742
Speaker 2: There's a word for people like me, and this Japanese

634
00:30:43,782 --> 00:30:47,902
Speaker 2: word is kushi sabishi, which translates to lonely mouth. I

635
00:30:47,982 --> 00:30:50,542
Speaker 2: learned this from Pandora Sex newsletter, and it refers to

636
00:30:50,582 --> 00:30:53,062
Speaker 2: when you want to eat something, not because you are

637
00:30:53,142 --> 00:30:56,342
Speaker 2: hungry or because you require nutritional value, but because your

638
00:30:56,342 --> 00:30:58,622
Speaker 2: mouth needs company. And I love this, Oh.

639
00:30:58,502 --> 00:31:00,902
Speaker 1: I love this. So it's different to eating your feelings.

640
00:31:01,182 --> 00:31:03,582
Speaker 2: Yes, it's just because your mouth needs company. And this

641
00:31:03,702 --> 00:31:09,382
Speaker 2: explains okers smokers, Maybe it'd explains smokers. It's an oral fixation. Actually,

642
00:31:09,422 --> 00:31:11,302
Speaker 2: I once had a yoga teacher who said that part

643
00:31:11,302 --> 00:31:14,142
Speaker 2: of the reason why people get addicted to smoking is

644
00:31:14,142 --> 00:31:16,462
Speaker 2: because you're doing yoga breathing and it relaxes you.

645
00:31:16,622 --> 00:31:19,662
Speaker 5: It's so true, we should put a health warning on that.

646
00:31:20,982 --> 00:31:23,462
Speaker 2: A much healthier habit is buying your pretzels in bulks

647
00:31:23,502 --> 00:31:25,542
Speaker 2: from cost Co, which is what I do. Because I

648
00:31:25,622 --> 00:31:27,822
Speaker 2: have lonely mouth. I always need to have a party

649
00:31:27,822 --> 00:31:29,501
Speaker 2: in my mouth. And now I have a word to describe.

650
00:31:29,542 --> 00:31:30,902
Speaker 3: Did you gun No?

651
00:31:31,062 --> 00:31:33,582
Speaker 5: Because I don't like it. Don't doesn't do a bit

652
00:31:33,582 --> 00:31:34,941
Speaker 5: of crunch, a little bit of salt.

653
00:31:35,182 --> 00:31:37,622
Speaker 2: I'm quite particular about my mouth. Do you have a

654
00:31:37,661 --> 00:31:39,302
Speaker 2: favorite snack for your lonely mouth?

655
00:31:39,422 --> 00:31:43,302
Speaker 1: Okay, T T yeah, yeah, my mouth is lonely without

656
00:31:43,342 --> 00:31:44,221
Speaker 1: tea as.

657
00:31:44,062 --> 00:31:46,981
Speaker 3: Someone nothing likes my brain up. I don't really get

658
00:31:46,982 --> 00:31:52,142
Speaker 3: excited about things, but I have begun with the Easter eggs.

659
00:31:52,822 --> 00:31:54,582
Speaker 3: I know it's only February.

660
00:31:54,382 --> 00:31:56,622
Speaker 1: Cross bunds, but it's a particular type of taste of

661
00:31:56,862 --> 00:31:57,582
Speaker 1: East eggs.

662
00:31:57,342 --> 00:32:00,262
Speaker 3: Which there's just the little Cadbury, nothing inside, nothing fancy,

663
00:32:00,382 --> 00:32:02,542
Speaker 3: and you chuck it in the mouth and then you

664
00:32:02,661 --> 00:32:04,941
Speaker 3: just suck it. And I have them every single night,

665
00:32:05,302 --> 00:32:08,662
Speaker 3: Like I'm just well, I've been overdoing it and I've

666
00:32:08,661 --> 00:32:11,022
Speaker 3: been feeling a bit seack. So I'm trying to cut

667
00:32:11,062 --> 00:32:15,302
Speaker 3: down to say five, what would r would? He would

668
00:32:15,342 --> 00:32:17,542
Speaker 3: say anything that happens for you as your own fault,

669
00:32:17,582 --> 00:32:18,462
Speaker 3: and he'd probably be right.

670
00:32:19,022 --> 00:32:21,902
Speaker 1: Coming up next, a generational argument that we have been

671
00:32:21,942 --> 00:32:24,622
Speaker 1: waiting to have all day. Maybe all our lives.

672
00:32:25,062 --> 00:32:29,062
Speaker 3: Want unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday

673
00:32:29,062 --> 00:32:33,302
Speaker 3: and Thursday exclusively from Mum and Maya. Subscribers follow the

674
00:32:33,342 --> 00:32:35,182
Speaker 3: link in the show notes to get us in your

675
00:32:35,222 --> 00:32:38,062
Speaker 3: ears five days a week and a huge thank you

676
00:32:38,222 --> 00:32:39,702
Speaker 3: to all our current subscribers.

677
00:32:45,622 --> 00:32:50,021
Speaker 2: Are generations Real? An ABC podcast called Future Tense has

678
00:32:50,062 --> 00:32:52,502
Speaker 2: come up with a pretty provocative theory on this in

679
00:32:52,542 --> 00:32:56,302
Speaker 2: an episode called The Danger of Generational Labeling. The podcast

680
00:32:56,342 --> 00:32:59,582
Speaker 2: brings in demographers who argue that the naming of generations

681
00:32:59,742 --> 00:33:02,181
Speaker 2: is pseudoscience. Says it's no better than astrology.

682
00:33:02,262 --> 00:33:04,502
Speaker 1: But it's a hang on. Isn't it based on literally

683
00:33:04,542 --> 00:33:05,342
Speaker 1: when you were born?

684
00:33:05,622 --> 00:33:09,701
Speaker 3: Yeah, but there's always christ Us true.

685
00:33:09,862 --> 00:33:13,102
Speaker 2: So baby boomers apparently they're allowed to still be a generation.

686
00:33:13,302 --> 00:33:14,142
Speaker 5: They can breathe easy.

687
00:33:14,222 --> 00:33:17,422
Speaker 2: They are based on what the experts call a demographic reality.

688
00:33:17,822 --> 00:33:22,782
Speaker 2: But then you move on to these more pseudoscience cultural generations.

689
00:33:23,022 --> 00:33:25,902
Speaker 2: Generation X, Sorry, Mia, that's not based on an economic

690
00:33:25,942 --> 00:33:27,181
Speaker 2: or demographic reality.

691
00:33:27,182 --> 00:33:28,102
Speaker 1: In my head, it's all.

692
00:33:28,022 --> 00:33:28,502
Speaker 5: In your head.

693
00:33:28,862 --> 00:33:31,421
Speaker 2: Millennials, Jesse and I. It's just a reference to a

694
00:33:31,462 --> 00:33:34,421
Speaker 2: point in time. It doesn't mean anything. Gen Z was

695
00:33:34,462 --> 00:33:36,822
Speaker 2: still arguing on when that group begins and ends, and

696
00:33:36,862 --> 00:33:39,542
Speaker 2: apparently Jen Alpha, no one even knows if that's a

697
00:33:39,582 --> 00:33:42,302
Speaker 2: real thing. And also the name is very unimaginative because

698
00:33:42,302 --> 00:33:43,662
Speaker 2: we're starting at the side of the alphabet.

699
00:33:43,982 --> 00:33:47,981
Speaker 1: Is this because baby boomers were actually a reference to

700
00:33:48,222 --> 00:33:51,102
Speaker 1: a change in population. Right, So there's a certain number

701
00:33:51,102 --> 00:33:53,062
Speaker 1: of babies born every year, but there was a big

702
00:33:53,102 --> 00:33:56,702
Speaker 1: spike after the war, hence the name of the baby boomers.

703
00:33:56,862 --> 00:34:00,422
Speaker 1: What generations have come to me now is like how

704
00:34:00,422 --> 00:34:03,342
Speaker 1: they've been influenced by the culture. Is that what generations are?

705
00:34:03,742 --> 00:34:07,262
Speaker 2: Yes, And so there's all these problems with labeling people

706
00:34:07,382 --> 00:34:11,221
Speaker 2: like that they suppress individuality, they're very static. So like

707
00:34:11,382 --> 00:34:14,422
Speaker 2: a millennial when a millennial was fifteen is probably quite

708
00:34:14,422 --> 00:34:16,862
Speaker 2: different to what a millennial is like now. For instance,

709
00:34:16,902 --> 00:34:19,782
Speaker 2: I now like watching nature documentaries and talking about real estate.

710
00:34:19,862 --> 00:34:22,382
Speaker 2: But when I was fifteen, I was still a millennial.

711
00:34:22,422 --> 00:34:23,982
Speaker 2: I did not enjoy either of those things.

712
00:34:24,062 --> 00:34:26,582
Speaker 1: But isn't that just then what a millennial like? Now

713
00:34:26,622 --> 00:34:30,062
Speaker 1: millennials are all having children, So that's just what millennials

714
00:34:30,062 --> 00:34:31,781
Speaker 1: are doing.

715
00:34:31,022 --> 00:34:34,342
Speaker 3: About a difference between us age rather than generation.

716
00:34:34,862 --> 00:34:36,502
Speaker 5: Yes, So in fact it's brilliant.

717
00:34:36,542 --> 00:34:40,862
Speaker 3: Millennials were seen as this kind of cynical work, obsessed,

718
00:34:40,942 --> 00:34:43,102
Speaker 3: were obsessed generation.

719
00:34:42,982 --> 00:34:46,741
Speaker 2: And halfaway and the devils products exactually a tootemic millennial.

720
00:34:46,982 --> 00:34:49,022
Speaker 5: You're not a writer in reality by ites as yours

721
00:34:49,342 --> 00:34:49,542
Speaker 5: like we.

722
00:34:49,622 --> 00:34:54,221
Speaker 3: Were given this specific personality, and then we grew up

723
00:34:54,582 --> 00:34:57,062
Speaker 3: and faced the housing market, or whether or not we

724
00:34:57,142 --> 00:34:58,701
Speaker 3: were going to have children, all of these things that

725
00:34:58,862 --> 00:35:03,741
Speaker 3: people do in a lifespan, and we responded to those variables.

726
00:35:03,822 --> 00:35:06,221
Speaker 1: But it's different because the generation behind you, which is

727
00:35:06,302 --> 00:35:09,342
Speaker 1: Gen Z, aren't the same as you. They're not obsessed

728
00:35:09,342 --> 00:35:12,341
Speaker 1: with work, they're not the differences between I think that's

729
00:35:12,462 --> 00:35:14,222
Speaker 1: changing too at the same age.

730
00:35:14,542 --> 00:35:17,862
Speaker 2: So back in twenty seventeen, I wrote a big article

731
00:35:17,942 --> 00:35:21,102
Speaker 2: about Gen Z as the most socially progressive generation ever,

732
00:35:21,221 --> 00:35:23,382
Speaker 2: and that was grounded in some social science research that

733
00:35:23,502 --> 00:35:25,901
Speaker 2: was emerging at the time. For instance, they were much

734
00:35:25,942 --> 00:35:28,582
Speaker 2: more accepting of the idea of gender fluidity. They were

735
00:35:28,661 --> 00:35:31,982
Speaker 2: much more into racial justice. They were called sometimes the

736
00:35:32,022 --> 00:35:34,462
Speaker 2: Harry Potter generation, meaning that they wanted to go out

737
00:35:34,502 --> 00:35:36,942
Speaker 2: and avenge the wrongs of the world. But look in

738
00:35:37,022 --> 00:35:40,381
Speaker 2: the recent US election, almost half of young people voted

739
00:35:40,422 --> 00:35:42,422
Speaker 2: for Donald Trump, and that was much higher than it's

740
00:35:42,462 --> 00:35:45,701
Speaker 2: been in previous generations or in previous elections. So the

741
00:35:45,781 --> 00:35:48,342
Speaker 2: idea that we assume that young people are always progressive,

742
00:35:48,701 --> 00:35:51,342
Speaker 2: maybe it's just that young people are always progressive, and

743
00:35:51,382 --> 00:35:54,301
Speaker 2: then as they get older and they face adversity in

744
00:35:54,382 --> 00:35:55,461
Speaker 2: different problems in life.

745
00:35:55,622 --> 00:35:59,542
Speaker 1: They're not progressive because gen z big maga people. Yes,

746
00:35:59,622 --> 00:36:00,781
Speaker 1: I'm being general, but.

747
00:36:01,342 --> 00:36:03,062
Speaker 3: They've grown up a little bit, is the point. And

748
00:36:03,582 --> 00:36:06,182
Speaker 3: what people are saying is that there's datists to suggest

749
00:36:06,221 --> 00:36:08,022
Speaker 3: that as you grow up, you become more risk averse.

750
00:36:08,342 --> 00:36:11,102
Speaker 3: So the idea that you become more conservative as you

751
00:36:11,181 --> 00:36:13,942
Speaker 3: grow older, rather than it being we can look at

752
00:36:13,982 --> 00:36:16,261
Speaker 3: this generation and go, they're going to vote this way.

753
00:36:16,661 --> 00:36:18,942
Speaker 3: How they vote actually can change throughout a lifestyle.

754
00:36:18,982 --> 00:36:21,181
Speaker 1: So then why was the cover story of New York

755
00:36:21,261 --> 00:36:25,542
Speaker 1: magazine all these young, hip gen z maga people.

756
00:36:25,902 --> 00:36:27,781
Speaker 3: Well, the point is, and I think this is what

757
00:36:27,862 --> 00:36:31,582
Speaker 3: they're trying to make that media and marketing has become

758
00:36:31,661 --> 00:36:35,142
Speaker 3: obsessed with generations. Before they even look at the data,

759
00:36:35,181 --> 00:36:37,502
Speaker 3: they've decided what they're going to see, and they're kind

760
00:36:37,542 --> 00:36:42,502
Speaker 3: of projecting these stories onto people that aren't true. So,

761
00:36:43,382 --> 00:36:47,301
Speaker 3: for example, a lot of generations and millennials, gen Z

762
00:36:47,942 --> 00:36:51,102
Speaker 3: is about cultural shifts that happened in the US. Now

763
00:36:51,221 --> 00:36:53,582
Speaker 3: South Korea is using the idea of gen Z. Nothing

764
00:36:53,582 --> 00:36:57,901
Speaker 3: happened in South Korea that was particularly fundamental, So that's

765
00:36:57,942 --> 00:37:01,662
Speaker 3: one problem with it. The second is that it doesn't

766
00:37:01,781 --> 00:37:05,062
Speaker 3: look at variables like class. And that's the big thing

767
00:37:05,142 --> 00:37:07,062
Speaker 3: that we never seem to talk about, is that a

768
00:37:07,142 --> 00:37:10,821
Speaker 3: white middle class millennial is not the same as a

769
00:37:11,542 --> 00:37:14,622
Speaker 3: migrant who lives in a totally different suburb. They don't

770
00:37:14,701 --> 00:37:16,862
Speaker 3: vote the same, they didn't have the same set of

771
00:37:16,942 --> 00:37:18,461
Speaker 3: life experiences to that point.

772
00:37:18,661 --> 00:37:21,102
Speaker 2: Just last week, I can't believe I'm defending boomers, but

773
00:37:21,181 --> 00:37:23,342
Speaker 2: here we are. A report came out and it showed

774
00:37:23,382 --> 00:37:26,022
Speaker 2: that there's a bunch of renting retirees in Australia who

775
00:37:26,022 --> 00:37:27,982
Speaker 2: are living below the poverty line. The actual stat was

776
00:37:28,022 --> 00:37:30,542
Speaker 2: two thirds of renting retirees. You don't think of boomers

777
00:37:30,622 --> 00:37:33,622
Speaker 2: in our discourse, okay, boomer discourse. You don't think of

778
00:37:33,701 --> 00:37:35,982
Speaker 2: them as living below the poverty line, but a lot

779
00:37:36,022 --> 00:37:36,381
Speaker 2: of them are.

780
00:37:36,622 --> 00:37:41,142
Speaker 3: And it's causing a lot of unnecessary tension between generations

781
00:37:41,181 --> 00:37:44,301
Speaker 3: when we might have more things in common than we think,

782
00:37:44,422 --> 00:37:47,181
Speaker 3: and we get this stereotype. So before a gen Z

783
00:37:47,382 --> 00:37:49,622
Speaker 3: walks into the office, you might go, oh, here we go,

784
00:37:49,781 --> 00:37:52,022
Speaker 3: here's another one, and then they do or say something

785
00:37:52,142 --> 00:37:55,582
Speaker 3: and it just sort of reinforces what we already suspect.

786
00:37:55,741 --> 00:37:59,102
Speaker 1: I think it can be a helpful acknowledgment of the

787
00:37:59,382 --> 00:38:03,542
Speaker 1: cultural impact of certain things depending on how old you are.

788
00:38:03,622 --> 00:38:06,142
Speaker 1: That's what it is to me. So for example, I

789
00:38:06,221 --> 00:38:08,701
Speaker 1: looked at this thing about one point zero versus gen

790
00:38:08,822 --> 00:38:12,901
Speaker 1: Z two point zero and the differences with it. One

791
00:38:12,982 --> 00:38:16,701
Speaker 1: point zero graduated high school before COVID and two point

792
00:38:16,822 --> 00:38:19,221
Speaker 1: zero graduated high school after COVID.

793
00:38:19,302 --> 00:38:23,181
Speaker 3: So the demographers in this talking about generations said that

794
00:38:23,382 --> 00:38:26,341
Speaker 3: matters COVID is massive, exactly, And so.

795
00:38:26,701 --> 00:38:30,661
Speaker 1: To say gen Z, like, that's a big impact. And so,

796
00:38:30,822 --> 00:38:34,421
Speaker 1: for example, the relevant cultural events for gen Z who

797
00:38:34,741 --> 00:38:37,301
Speaker 1: graduated high school before COVID were like the Women's March

798
00:38:37,382 --> 00:38:39,941
Speaker 1: and the Climate Strikes Back March and Black Lives Matter

799
00:38:40,622 --> 00:38:42,701
Speaker 1: and all of those things were part of the zeitgeist.

800
00:38:42,741 --> 00:38:46,142
Speaker 1: But for the ones who graduated after COVID, it's more

801
00:38:46,181 --> 00:38:49,221
Speaker 1: about resistance to COVID and masking protocols and more of

802
00:38:49,302 --> 00:38:52,142
Speaker 1: a move towards MAGA and anti cancer.

803
00:38:52,181 --> 00:38:54,261
Speaker 2: And I think that's that's right me and I was

804
00:38:54,342 --> 00:38:57,262
Speaker 2: going back and forth on this topic myself. Another example

805
00:38:57,382 --> 00:39:00,741
Speaker 2: is jen Alpha. They're very young people under the age

806
00:39:00,781 --> 00:39:03,261
Speaker 2: of six or seven. Apparently a lot of them are

807
00:39:03,302 --> 00:39:07,102
Speaker 2: suffering from slow development in gross modor skills and that's

808
00:39:07,181 --> 00:39:09,462
Speaker 2: because when they were meant to be going to playground,

809
00:39:09,622 --> 00:39:10,701
Speaker 2: all the playgrounds were shut.

810
00:39:10,982 --> 00:39:14,102
Speaker 5: Now that's a clear cultural impact. So they were lives.

811
00:39:14,302 --> 00:39:17,982
Speaker 1: You have a whole generation who were in utero and

812
00:39:18,142 --> 00:39:20,862
Speaker 1: then at home. It's kind of like the COVID rescue dogs.

813
00:39:21,181 --> 00:39:24,382
Speaker 1: They're messed up. A generation of dogs that were adopted

814
00:39:24,542 --> 00:39:27,782
Speaker 1: or born during COVID are messed up because they missed

815
00:39:27,862 --> 00:39:30,422
Speaker 1: all of that socialization. So we now see the effects in.

816
00:39:30,822 --> 00:39:34,262
Speaker 2: Yeah, apparently young kids are having problems with toilet training

817
00:39:34,342 --> 00:39:38,262
Speaker 2: because that requires you to involve various gross motor actions

818
00:39:38,302 --> 00:39:40,821
Speaker 2: in your body. They grew up on screens a lot

819
00:39:40,902 --> 00:39:43,301
Speaker 2: more than other kids because their parents were trying to

820
00:39:43,382 --> 00:39:45,221
Speaker 2: work at the same time as the kids were stuck

821
00:39:45,261 --> 00:39:47,421
Speaker 2: at home. All of this meant that there's a sort

822
00:39:47,462 --> 00:39:51,062
Speaker 2: of population wide problem with gross motor skills.

823
00:39:51,181 --> 00:39:53,582
Speaker 3: And so yeah, see that seems a lot more significant

824
00:39:53,741 --> 00:39:56,181
Speaker 3: to me than say, looking at millennials and they say

825
00:39:56,302 --> 00:39:59,342
Speaker 3: the GFC was really you've got early and late millennials.

826
00:39:59,822 --> 00:40:03,301
Speaker 3: When you graduated in proximity to the GFC matters a

827
00:40:03,342 --> 00:40:06,062
Speaker 3: lot in terms of what career choices you made. But

828
00:40:06,142 --> 00:40:08,182
Speaker 3: I would also say add class in there.

829
00:40:08,221 --> 00:40:10,582
Speaker 5: Like that's the way the on the GFC, there's a

830
00:40:10,622 --> 00:40:13,222
Speaker 5: thing about micro generations. Have you come across this concept?

831
00:40:13,302 --> 00:40:16,382
Speaker 2: So my husband graduated from university in two thousand and

832
00:40:16,462 --> 00:40:18,381
Speaker 2: eight and I graduated in two thousand and five.

833
00:40:18,502 --> 00:40:20,542
Speaker 3: See I graduated high school in two thousand and fo. Okay,

834
00:40:20,542 --> 00:40:21,902
Speaker 3: so it's a different yeah, you go.

835
00:40:22,302 --> 00:40:24,861
Speaker 2: So the thing is that between him and me, there's

836
00:40:24,902 --> 00:40:27,821
Speaker 2: three years, but there's a world of difference in terms

837
00:40:27,862 --> 00:40:30,502
Speaker 2: of I entered the workforce when everyone was feeling good.

838
00:40:30,982 --> 00:40:33,301
Speaker 2: First job had a caviar and oyster tower at the

839
00:40:33,382 --> 00:40:36,422
Speaker 2: Christmas Priorty. When he entered the workforce, he said, this

840
00:40:36,622 --> 00:40:38,142
Speaker 2: is not so good. I'm going to go and be

841
00:40:38,181 --> 00:40:40,502
Speaker 2: a professional mover for a few years because there's not

842
00:40:40,622 --> 00:40:41,741
Speaker 2: a lot of jobs available.

843
00:40:41,862 --> 00:40:45,982
Speaker 1: That's so interesting. So those big cultural moments do impact

844
00:40:46,542 --> 00:40:48,582
Speaker 1: on a generation, but I think they impact on a

845
00:40:48,661 --> 00:40:51,462
Speaker 1: generation differently depending on how old you are. So for example,

846
00:40:51,862 --> 00:40:52,342
Speaker 1: for Gen.

847
00:40:52,462 --> 00:40:54,702
Speaker 5: X, yeah, what are your generation?

848
00:40:54,982 --> 00:40:59,382
Speaker 1: Well, AIDS was a big thing and becoming sexually active

849
00:40:59,701 --> 00:41:02,982
Speaker 1: at a time when sex was being portrayed. You know,

850
00:41:03,062 --> 00:41:05,942
Speaker 1: the boomers had free love and by the time the

851
00:41:06,022 --> 00:41:09,422
Speaker 1: millennials came along and were having sex, HIV was not

852
00:41:09,622 --> 00:41:12,741
Speaker 1: seen as a death sentence anymore, and you know, it

853
00:41:12,862 --> 00:41:14,862
Speaker 1: was just a different time. But for us it was

854
00:41:14,982 --> 00:41:17,582
Speaker 1: like our COVID essentially connected to sex.

855
00:41:17,741 --> 00:41:20,461
Speaker 3: I also think that technology and the speed at which

856
00:41:20,502 --> 00:41:24,501
Speaker 3: technology is evolving, is churning out generations at a faster pace,

857
00:41:24,902 --> 00:41:27,301
Speaker 3: because I think there's such a distinction between when you

858
00:41:27,382 --> 00:41:29,381
Speaker 3: got your first phone, what apps you use.

859
00:41:29,582 --> 00:41:31,862
Speaker 2: My daughters sat down in front of the television yesterday

860
00:41:31,942 --> 00:41:34,342
Speaker 2: to pick something on Netflix, and she started, now, this

861
00:41:34,502 --> 00:41:37,942
Speaker 2: is a podcast, but she started scrolling my TV and

862
00:41:38,062 --> 00:41:40,142
Speaker 2: she just knew intuitively how to scroll, and I had

863
00:41:40,221 --> 00:41:42,382
Speaker 2: to explain, sorry, we don't have touchscreen TVs.

864
00:41:42,502 --> 00:41:43,741
Speaker 5: But how did she even learn that?

865
00:41:43,942 --> 00:41:46,062
Speaker 3: Now I'm having the same like lunar and a phone.

866
00:41:46,142 --> 00:41:48,221
Speaker 3: She never sees me pick up a ringing phone. So

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Speaker 3: I got a ring ring and she's like, what, that's

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Speaker 3: all we have time for today. A big thank you

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Speaker 3: to all of you the out louders for listening to

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00:41:55,181 --> 00:41:57,862
Speaker 3: today's show and our fabulous team for putting it together.

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Speaker 3: We will be back in your ears tomorrow. Bye.

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Speaker 1: Shout out to any Mum and Maya subscribers listening if

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Speaker 1: you love the show and want to support us as well.

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00:42:08,822 --> 00:42:11,301
Speaker 1: Subscribing to Mama Maya is the very best way to

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Speaker 1: do so. There is a link in the episode description