Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. Men tend to really
Speaker 2: like practical jokes. If you think about the stories of
Speaker 2: movie stars who play practical jokes on each other and
Speaker 2: then they'd pressed to us that they'll be like, oh,
Speaker 2: Clooney was such a joker on set. He always did this,
Speaker 2: He always did that. It just makes everyone else look dumb. Hello,
Speaker 2: and welcome to Mama Mia. Out loud. It's what women
Speaker 2: are actually talking about on Wednesday, the second of April.
Speaker 2: My name is Holly Waynwright.
Speaker 1: I'm mea Friedman, and I'm mea Friedman.
Speaker 3: That's no Forril Fool's joke.
Speaker 1: That's funny. I do have something it's not an April
Speaker 1: Fool's joke, which is that, in case you missed it,
Speaker 1: we have merch.
Speaker 3: Out louders, No, now it sounds like an April for
Speaker 3: it's not.
Speaker 1: We finally have merch and it would be very elaborate
Speaker 1: April Fool's date because I'm wearing it now and we're
Speaker 1: all wearing it. Eagle eyed out there might have noticed
Speaker 1: if you saw the socials for Monday show or the
Speaker 1: picture that we put in the out loud.
Speaker 2: Who one day. We were so subtle, weren't we? We
Speaker 2: were so subtle, all standing there in front of all
Speaker 2: the merchants. Out louders in our Facebook group were like,
Speaker 2: I see March and.
Speaker 1: Then we're like, we're not telling you until Wednesday. We're
Speaker 1: so sneaky. We have done a collab with our favorite,
Speaker 1: one of our favorite local lady startup labels, Makou. She's
Speaker 1: designed a limited edition of four T shirts and bags
Speaker 1: and you can order any or all of them now
Speaker 1: at mamama out loud dot com dot au. Just click
Speaker 1: shop to get merch and when it arrives, make sure
Speaker 1: you tag us in photos of you wearing it, so
Speaker 1: I see you.
Speaker 2: Are we telling them about the TYPEO? Is that a
Speaker 2: thing we can tell our Oh yeah, people are so.
Speaker 1: If you order quickly, and if you've got eagle eyes,
Speaker 1: you will spot in one of the T shirts. I
Speaker 1: won't tell you which one. There is a typo that's
Speaker 1: so us So we were like, Holly of course spotted it,
Speaker 1: and I was proper to it. After it was printed
Speaker 1: and we went, oh dear, and then we went, well,
Speaker 1: let's just make a feature of our floor.
Speaker 4: Yep.
Speaker 3: We love to flearn here.
Speaker 1: Yes, and you know if you get one of those,
Speaker 1: because obviously when we print the next edition, we are
Speaker 1: going to change it, but.
Speaker 5: It'll be a collector item in It's true. I went
Speaker 5: to the gym the other day with my out Louder
Speaker 5: merch bag. Is it dicky to wear your own merch.
Speaker 2: No, that's funny because I wore out my Outlouder t
Speaker 2: shirt and when I walked into the office somebody said
Speaker 2: to me, oh, a fan of yourself.
Speaker 1: Like someone has to think of that.
Speaker 2: But yeah, now I feel very self conscious. On today's show,
Speaker 2: there are two types of people, and neither of them
Speaker 2: think practical jokes are funny. We have feedback for eightful
Speaker 2: the first also the stratispheric drama level of sharing custody
Speaker 2: with the world's most powerful unhinged men, and kink are
Speaker 2: having a moment in pop culture, and a confession on
Speaker 2: Gwyneth's lay. This podcast left us with questions. But first, Mia, in.
Speaker 1: Case you missed it, the Beatles are getting back together
Speaker 1: in see that coming movie form, and it's not actually them,
Speaker 1: which is why you probably didn't see it coming. I
Speaker 1: think two of them have died. Director Sam Mend's former
Speaker 1: husband of Kate Winslet, announced yesterday that he's making four
Speaker 1: describe some members.
Speaker 3: That's the most interesting fact I've learned today. I didn't
Speaker 3: know that is.
Speaker 2: An enormously successful and accomplished director, but hey.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's out loud.
Speaker 1: That's how we wrong. He is making four separate movies,
Speaker 1: one focusing on each of the four band members through
Speaker 1: their point of view, and they'll all be dropping in
Speaker 1: cinemas in April twenty twenty eight in what is being
Speaker 1: called the first bingeable theatrical experience.
Speaker 5: I have I have a question for Holly because she's British,
Speaker 5: so clearly she's the closest to the Beatles.
Speaker 1: Do you want to know who's in it? Who's playing
Speaker 1: the Beatles?
Speaker 3: That's actually pretty it's a dreamcast.
Speaker 1: It is Paul Mescal as Paul McCartney, Paul Mescal from
Speaker 1: Normal People. Harris Dickinson is playing John Lennon. He was
Speaker 1: most recently in Baby Girl.
Speaker 3: I think he is so hot. I can't even that's
Speaker 3: the role.
Speaker 2: Everyone wants. You want to be John?
Speaker 1: Do you want to be Paul?
Speaker 2: You want to be John?
Speaker 5: Why?
Speaker 2: Because well, are you a Paul or are you a John?
Speaker 2: Is one of the world's longest running like poodle wolf situations,
Speaker 2: and you want to be John because's the main character.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's the main.
Speaker 6: Character of the Beatles.
Speaker 1: Joseph Quinn is George Harrison, I don't know who he is.
Speaker 1: And Barry Kogan is Ringo Star. He had to.
Speaker 2: Be because I didn't realize that each one of these
Speaker 2: movies is told from their perspectives, and no one would
Speaker 2: go and see the Ringo one, no dissing Ringo. But
Speaker 2: he's the least interesting that so until you put Barry
Speaker 2: keg and then everyone goes, oh, yeah, now I need
Speaker 2: to see the Ringo version.
Speaker 5: So if you're counting your pennies for that time in
Speaker 5: a few years, the ones you're going to see number one,
Speaker 5: you're going to see John a couple.
Speaker 1: Of hundred dollars.
Speaker 2: This is actually genius, absolute genius. I'm not happy that
Speaker 2: I have to wait three years. But everybody's talking about
Speaker 2: cinema is dead. Cinema is dead except for the massive
Speaker 2: stunt things, and they tend to be Marvel movies, those
Speaker 2: kind of things. Baby, with the exception of Barbie, which
Speaker 2: obviously is a brilliant movie. A lot of those movies
Speaker 2: don't get a lot of credibility, Like they're not very good.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, very artistically. What's the word critical, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: they're seen as a bit cheap, even though they're the
Speaker 2: most expensive things that have ever been made. This is
Speaker 2: a great idea because it marries stunt with simultaneous release
Speaker 2: of four movies, biggest stars in the world, blah blah blah,
Speaker 2: with undoubted credibility. If you've got Sam Mendes directing and
Speaker 2: those actors playing these movies are going to be brilliant.
Speaker 5: Do you think they'll have a few per fore men?
Speaker 5: Because the thing is, if this was if this was
Speaker 5: a Spice Girl, then we'd cut five women. We would
Speaker 5: be holding our breath. Because the feud on the press
Speaker 5: tour is the new like, that's the biggest st.
Speaker 1: John famously clashed, particularly when Yo came into the picture.
Speaker 1: I'm popular opinion. I don't think I'll see any of them.
Speaker 1: I don't like the Beatles very much.
Speaker 2: I will see them all, all of them in like
Speaker 2: a very short period. Imagine the fuss about this. It's
Speaker 2: going to be like set aside a day you're going
Speaker 2: to be like, it's going to be a whole.
Speaker 3: I'll see Paul and John, and I'll decide whether I'll
Speaker 3: see the others.
Speaker 5: Feedback is a gift from both the perspective of a
Speaker 5: giver as well as the recipient. I have feedback for
Speaker 5: April Full's Day, and I'm worried that I'm being a killjoy,
Speaker 5: which is why I'm bringing it to the table today
Speaker 5: to unpack it with my friends.
Speaker 6: Because this did you get tricked yesterday?
Speaker 1: Babe?
Speaker 3: I wouldn't say I got tricked. I'm trying to be
Speaker 3: self aware.
Speaker 5: This is my tenth year in media, and maybe I've
Speaker 5: become jaded, right, but I think I'm done with April
Speaker 5: Full's Day. Yesterday my social media Walter April Fool's Day pranks,
Speaker 5: and I didn't even understand half of them. Brands love
Speaker 5: and April Fool's Day joke, and there were some were
Speaker 5: there many decent ones. Dyson did the airbrow.
Speaker 1: I saw that that was clever. I almost tried to buy.
Speaker 3: See this is a problem.
Speaker 2: Think of how many people did try and buy that.
Speaker 1: It was like a little I don't even know what
Speaker 1: it was, but it was like to dry and fluff
Speaker 1: and shape your eyebrows, and it was like.
Speaker 2: A teeny weeny little hair dry.
Speaker 5: I love a little gadget, and Mac did a clear
Speaker 5: foundation and I was like, may I would buy that
Speaker 5: In an instant.
Speaker 3: Jack sent us chocolate covered Jacks, which that's.
Speaker 2: Clean funny about them.
Speaker 6: They were just delicious.
Speaker 5: They're seriously a fantastic product that now I can't buy,
Speaker 5: so now I'm annoyed. Set Then there was the school
Speaker 5: who played this prank on their students.
Speaker 7: Morning, Year eleven. I hope we are all well this morning.
Speaker 7: I have some really significant news. This new will affect
Speaker 7: you all directly and will impact your HC and graduation dates.
Speaker 7: With this said, a mandatory year thirteen has been added
Speaker 7: to your educational pathway and therefore you will no longer
Speaker 7: be graduating in twenty twenty six. You will now be
Speaker 7: graduating in twenty twenty seven. Thank you for it is
Speaker 7: compulsory that you complete your thirteenth year. Here is one
Speaker 7: other five compiece of information I need to share with you.
Speaker 7: Woollongong High School of the Performing Arts this year was
Speaker 7: selected to be a part of the twenty twenty five
Speaker 7: April Fool's Day Joke.
Speaker 6: Got Up I love.
Speaker 1: I actually love that.
Speaker 3: I like that one schools deserve more fun.
Speaker 5: I think we can all agree. I think that's fun,
Speaker 5: and I'll allow that broadly. The wall to wall pranks,
Speaker 5: I'm not into it. And it got me thinking about
Speaker 5: how some people are prank people. They love a practical joke,
Speaker 5: and then there are people like me who have absolutely
Speaker 5: no patience for it.
Speaker 3: Am I jaded? Or does April Fool's Day grind your
Speaker 3: gears a bit?
Speaker 6: Holly?
Speaker 2: I can't stand them. I'm the same as you, absolutely
Speaker 2: And I think it's because ultimately, there's always a bot
Speaker 2: of the joke in practical jokes, right, And I'm going
Speaker 2: to generalize enormously. Men tend to really like practical jokes.
Speaker 2: If you think about I always think about the stories
Speaker 2: of movie stars who play practical jokes on each other
Speaker 2: and in the press tours that will be like, oh,
Speaker 2: Clooney was such a joker on set.
Speaker 1: He always did this, he always did that.
Speaker 2: It's like lols if you George Clooney, but it just
Speaker 2: makes everyone else look dumb. And I wonder if women
Speaker 2: are kind of used to being belittled a bit in
Speaker 2: a way that maybe men aren't so we're very sensitive
Speaker 2: and I'm told to laugh. It's just a joke. Stop
Speaker 2: taking this off.
Speaker 5: So seriously, you know what, because I think the practical
Speaker 5: joke famously Leonardo DiCaprio and Jonah Hill. There are all
Speaker 5: these videos and they're quite funny the way that they
Speaker 5: kind of paying each other and praying each other. But
Speaker 5: practical jokes are about power, right, So if you're in
Speaker 5: a workplace, you can't pull a practical joke on your boss.
Speaker 3: You know you can't.
Speaker 5: You can too, it's too risky. You can with maybe
Speaker 5: a coworker. And I think that that's it. That it's
Speaker 5: like the butt of the joke is the audience or
Speaker 5: the person who's confused.
Speaker 1: There is always a butt, isn't there.
Speaker 5: There's always a butt, and it's not you. And the
Speaker 5: other thing about April Fool's lie, that's not true.
Speaker 1: So one time at Mum Maya, someone had the idea
Speaker 1: of making an announcement or doing an article about how
Speaker 1: I changed my name from me a freedman to me
Speaker 1: a freed woman because my idea, but we published it.
Speaker 1: So the butt of the joke was on me really
Speaker 1: because it was like, oh maybe that with button the
Speaker 1: joke was on people who believed it anyway, completely backfired
Speaker 1: because six months later people were still saying to me, like,
Speaker 1: my friends, did you really change your name? And I
Speaker 1: was like no, because the problem is unless the payoff,
Speaker 1: like in that video about the Department of Education, and
Speaker 1: in that context, the payoff came immediately, so.
Speaker 6: You saw it all together.
Speaker 1: But even when I was flicking through Instagram last night
Speaker 1: and I saw the dice in one I read the
Speaker 1: caption because I thought, wait, is this and then I
Speaker 1: had to go and look read all the comments to
Speaker 1: check if it was in April Fool's Day joke. So
Speaker 1: if you don't have that payoff straight away, it can
Speaker 1: be a bit confusing.
Speaker 2: I wonder if practical jokes generally are a bit out
Speaker 2: of fashion, right, because I mean those ones are not
Speaker 2: they don't have a visual victim. But if you think
Speaker 2: about the shows that were massive for a while, like
Speaker 2: Punked and Candid Camera, which were all about tricking somebody
Speaker 2: famous or not famous for quite a long period of
Speaker 2: time and then revealing to them, and it was very cringey.
Speaker 2: Like massive celebrities like Justin Timberlake and people like that
Speaker 2: were disposed at their rawst by that because as we
Speaker 2: discovered when we did a little prank this week at work,
Speaker 2: that you will all find out about if you come
Speaker 2: to the live show, you can't fake anything in that
Speaker 2: moment way. And I wonder if now, with social media
Speaker 2: being so prevalent, we say that's made us more authentic,
Speaker 2: but actually it means we curate ourselves very carefully, and
Speaker 2: also we know how easily weaponized any moment of embarrassment
Speaker 2: is so like for a teenager, like a video, a
Speaker 2: quick video of you tripping over something or whatever will
Speaker 2: be sent around the school in a hot minute, and
Speaker 2: you will be a massive butt of a joke that's
Speaker 2: mortifying for you. You know, so in a way that
Speaker 2: that didn't used to be the case.
Speaker 5: I don't think practical jokes are out of fashion. I'm
Speaker 5: thinking about impractical jokers the show with the Inspired Unemployed
Speaker 5: that recently was on Paramount and that had an audience.
Speaker 5: I would say most of them were men est But
Speaker 5: I reckon it's got something to do with the social
Speaker 5: media element because the for fools Day jokes had been
Speaker 5: co opted by brand since about the nineteen twenties, right,
Speaker 5: But when we saw a billboard or when we saw
Speaker 5: an ad for something, there was an innate sense of
Speaker 5: trust and therefore it was a flip to then go oh,
Speaker 5: I've been tricked, and it was a sign of brand
Speaker 5: trust like car brands used to do it, that they
Speaker 5: could be bold enough to on a day trick their audience.
Speaker 5: Now we are always being tricked. I go on to
Speaker 5: my social media and there is a no innate sense
Speaker 5: of trust. I'm already on my guard. I'm already expecting
Speaker 5: to be hoodwinked because of fake news, misinformation out of
Speaker 5: those things.
Speaker 1: But you mentioned that show on Paramount Plus cast your
Speaker 1: mind back when they worked with those Australian feminists who
Speaker 1: lured their audience there to come and watch this panel
Speaker 1: or debate, and then it turned out to be a
Speaker 1: joke and there was massive backlatch against those women and
Speaker 1: the inspired on employed guys because the butt of the
Speaker 1: joke was the audience. Yes, and they found massively betrayed.
Speaker 1: Very sensitive to it because it can be weaponized in
Speaker 1: a way. Your embarrassment can be weaponized in a way
Speaker 1: that it couldn't be back then, right, So as I say,
Speaker 1: your sort of embarrassed reaction to suddenly being revealed that
Speaker 1: you've been tricked, can suddenly travel everywhere.
Speaker 2: In a heartbeat in a way that it couldn't before.
Speaker 2: So I think it's riskier, the stakes are much higher.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think too that we feel like we're
Speaker 5: being tricked all the time. We almost feel like we're
Speaker 5: living in an April Fool's Day prank, Like what's happening
Speaker 5: in the US.
Speaker 3: It's like every day feels like an.
Speaker 1: April Foll's Day.
Speaker 3: Mc donaldson. Yeah, all of that.
Speaker 5: You just look at it and then someone makes another
Speaker 5: joke and you're sort of like, can we not trust
Speaker 5: anything anymore?
Speaker 2: Can I imagine what the Trump White House might have
Speaker 2: come up with for April Full's Day?
Speaker 1: Every day is April Full's Day. It's like a MoMA mayor.
Speaker 1: Every day's International Women's Day there every day.
Speaker 2: You know, the strict rules of April Full's Day is
Speaker 2: it only goes to the midday. You're only allowed to
Speaker 2: make joke.
Speaker 1: What is that?
Speaker 2: I don't know, But the strict rules of it are
Speaker 2: is it's a morning thing.
Speaker 5: You know why because by the afternoon we're exp This
Speaker 5: is the thing about human too.
Speaker 2: Prise.
Speaker 5: Humor relies on surprise. So now you get to kind
Speaker 5: of April one. You go look at it and Australian's
Speaker 5: theory Australians hate it more than everyone else because we
Speaker 5: have two days of it because of time zions.
Speaker 2: That's true.
Speaker 5: We have it and we go no no, no, no no,
Speaker 5: and then the US is like, we're releasing in you and.
Speaker 3: We're like, oh, we've been dealing with this brown.
Speaker 5: Practical jokes they used to used to be like a
Speaker 5: real thing of radio right. Yeah, but they always make
Speaker 5: the person look good or they're the butt of the
Speaker 5: joke and im practical jokes. In their defense, they are
Speaker 5: often the butt, So like, what's an example, Well, in
Speaker 5: practical jokes, they're never cruel and they never humiliate people.
Speaker 5: That's not their brand. No, Well, Hamish and Andy would
Speaker 5: call someone one of their most viral videos saying, will
Speaker 5: you be a reference for me?
Speaker 3: I know, I don't know you.
Speaker 5: James speaking?
Speaker 2: OK?
Speaker 3: Mate?
Speaker 4: Sorry, my name's Tim. How are you mate? I wonder
Speaker 4: if you can help me out of a slightly sticky situation.
Speaker 4: I'm just about to go into a job interview at
Speaker 4: an accounting firm.
Speaker 2: I don't know why.
Speaker 4: I Just've written down a random number and I just
Speaker 4: like to call it to see if it's a real thing.
Speaker 4: It's your number. But then it's occurred to me they
Speaker 4: might call it, but I doubt they will. But if
Speaker 4: someone calls you and says, do you know Tim Barnard?
Speaker 7: Can you.
Speaker 4: I'm going for a job at an accounting firm, but
Speaker 4: just say that, I'm just going to put you down
Speaker 4: as a personal reference.
Speaker 1: Yes, over my.
Speaker 5: Back, blah blah blah, Okay, a river bike.
Speaker 7: I've got your covered.
Speaker 1: Is that all right?
Speaker 5: And this guy went to great lengths to be a
Speaker 5: reference for Hamish Nandy and was dubbed the nicest guy right,
Speaker 5: dubbed the nicest guy in Australia. That you kind of go, oh,
Speaker 5: this makes me feel good, Whereas when I see people
Speaker 5: who have been humiliated, I just kind of I remember
Speaker 5: being at school and there was a trick pulled on
Speaker 5: one of our classes, I think for like a muck
Speaker 5: update thing, and we were filmed and they said afterwards
Speaker 5: they were.
Speaker 3: Like, we should have seen your face.
Speaker 5: You should have seen I hated that feeling. I just went,
Speaker 5: I don't like nobody to that joke.
Speaker 2: She so vulnerable.
Speaker 1: The worst one is speaking of vulnerable is when people
Speaker 1: scare you there's a certain type of person who likes
Speaker 1: going to pop out, pop out. But do you also
Speaker 1: remember when people used to come up behind you and
Speaker 1: put their hands over your eyes, And I think it
Speaker 1: took a lot of women getting very distressed by that.
Speaker 1: People don't do that anymore, luckily, because I hate that.
Speaker 1: I just even walk around my house and get startled
Speaker 1: by members of my own family, even with them out
Speaker 1: not trying to scare me.
Speaker 2: While we're on April, a little bit more feedback, since
Speaker 2: the month has only just been a few days ago.
Speaker 2: I signed up for a ten day meditation challenge online.
Speaker 2: I made it to day three, right, and then I
Speaker 2: looked at the date and they went, ah, I'm right
Speaker 2: on time. I'm having a little April moment, like that
Speaker 2: moment of the year where you go, I'm going to
Speaker 2: get everything sorted out because you've started in January. You
Speaker 2: were like, we've got word of the year, We've set things.
Speaker 2: Then you live for three months, everything goes to shit,
Speaker 2: and then you reset your reset and it's a thing.
Speaker 2: So there's a thing called April theory, and it's the
Speaker 2: idea and it's you know, all over TikTok and everything
Speaker 2: that April is actually the start of the new year
Speaker 2: in a way, so it's the season shift for a start,
Speaker 2: whichever hemisphere you're in, it's the season shift from one
Speaker 2: of the main character seasons to one of the side
Speaker 2: character seasons. There's something star shifting, you know. I never
Speaker 2: understand that it's eight aries season.
Speaker 5: Yep, So it's the end of Piscey season, and Piscey
Speaker 5: season is all about purging, so you need to purge
Speaker 5: things that are no longer serving you. And we move
Speaker 5: into April, which is astrologically full of new and exciting thing.
Speaker 2: Yes, so apparently it's a time of lots of enthusiasm,
Speaker 2: new projects, but also breakups and resets. Are you feeling April?
Speaker 5: A you?
Speaker 8: Is it?
Speaker 1: Because do you think you start the beginning of the
Speaker 1: year with that sort of new page optimism? And then yes.
Speaker 2: Then you're like, it's April and I'm still the same
Speaker 2: shitty mess I've always do you.
Speaker 1: Do the same things in April? Is it just a
Speaker 1: repeat of January? Sexually? But three months later?
Speaker 2: For me? I think when I decided to sign up
Speaker 2: for that meditation challenge and failed, I thought back and
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, it was this time last year
Speaker 2: that I started seeing that therapist myself, I gave up.
Speaker 2: I wandered off. I'm very wander offye on those things.
Speaker 2: But it's like, clearly you said all these good intentions
Speaker 2: in January. By April you've kind of gone, oh, same,
Speaker 2: I'm still the same. You know, wherever you go there
Speaker 2: you are that whole thing. And then you're in a
Speaker 2: little crisis about it, so you reach out for something
Speaker 2: to solve it and like try and start again.
Speaker 5: I wonder I have a different theory, which is that January,
Speaker 5: whether it's intentions or word or whatever, I think that
Speaker 5: you do actually make some changes, right, and you might
Speaker 5: make some big changes in that first kind of three
Speaker 5: months of the year, And by April, I think there
Speaker 5: might be a sense of newness or you ending a
Speaker 5: new era. Maybe you're benefiting from some of the things
Speaker 5: that you've more positive.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in a moment, what's it like to be in
Speaker 2: a custody battle with the richest, smartest, most volatile men
Speaker 2: in the world. We're going to tell you celebrities they're
Speaker 2: just like us, except that in the custody battles with
Speaker 2: their exes, they're dealing with things like copyright claims over
Speaker 2: the names of your kids, and your children may be
Speaker 2: turning up in the office of the President of the
Speaker 2: United States when you just thought they'd gone to the
Speaker 2: zoo with their dad. I'm talking, of course, about two
Speaker 2: very high profile divorced dads here, in particular, Kanye West
Speaker 2: and Elon Musk. Now, when I was getting the information
Speaker 2: together for this segment, it's a lot.
Speaker 3: It's actually so distressing.
Speaker 2: It is a lot. And also these two men who
Speaker 2: are very dominant in our culture at the moment for
Speaker 2: very different but sort.
Speaker 1: Of related reasons, related but.
Speaker 2: Also very distressing reasons in lots of ways. Also, being
Speaker 2: in the middle of these sort of parental battles is
Speaker 2: really a lot. So I'm just going to do a
Speaker 2: couple of very top line things about what's been going
Speaker 2: on lately and why you might have seen their names
Speaker 2: around in headlines related to custody. So, Kanye, who is
Speaker 2: in the middle of what appears to be a year's
Speaker 2: long spiral into ever more alarming extremism on many fronts,
Speaker 2: has been very vocal lately about how he'd like to
Speaker 2: spend some more time and have more access to and
Speaker 2: more rights over the names of his four children with
Speaker 2: Kim Kardashian and now he was married to her for
Speaker 2: eight years, officially divorcing in twenty twenty two, and they
Speaker 2: had four kids. As we know, North is the oldest,
Speaker 2: and she's the subject of most of this public back
Speaker 2: and forth because he recently made a track in support
Speaker 2: of Diddy, the infamous rapper and mogul who's in prison
Speaker 2: on claims of sex trafficking and racketeering and many other
Speaker 2: abuse claims, and Kim was furious about it, and then
Speaker 2: Kanye leaked some of the messages between them in relation
Speaker 2: to this, where it was revealed that Kim had trademarked
Speaker 2: North's name and earned the rights to it. So she
Speaker 2: said in one of the leak texts, I asked you
Speaker 2: at the time if I can trademark her name. You
Speaker 2: said yes, when she's eighteen, it goes to her, so stop.
Speaker 2: I sent paperwork over so she wouldn't be in the
Speaker 2: Diddy song to protect her, but he leaked the song anyway.
Speaker 2: Kardashian then requested an emergency hearing with their lawyers and
Speaker 2: a mediator and a judge because she also heard that
Speaker 2: North was going to be present at West's house when
Speaker 2: the Tate brothers, Andrew and Tristan Tate were visiting at
Speaker 2: Kanye's house, and so she sent bodyguards over to get
Speaker 2: North out of there.
Speaker 1: Imagine that the.
Speaker 2: Complexities of co parenting with a man like him evident
Speaker 2: in that he is publicly threatening to destroy her in
Speaker 2: this battle. So he has tweeted that neither of us
Speaker 2: will recover from the public fallout if you go to
Speaker 2: war over this. He said, You're going to have to
Speaker 2: kill me. Meanwhile, over in Elon's world, the apparent father
Speaker 2: of fourteen children is perpetually involved in custody disputes. He
Speaker 2: apparently resolved one with Grimes over their three kids last year,
Speaker 2: but that's been rocked by his distance on using one
Speaker 2: of those kids X as a promotional tool. So we
Speaker 2: talked about this a little bit, turning up at the
Speaker 2: Oval office, taking him to events and wandering off and
Speaker 2: leaving him alone. And Grimes has said she spent a
Speaker 2: year locked in a battle with him, having my Instagram
Speaker 2: posts and modeling used as reasons I shouldn't have my
Speaker 2: kids and fighting and detaching from the love of my
Speaker 2: life because they were actually in a relationship, which isn't
Speaker 2: the case with some of Elon's mothers of his children,
Speaker 2: detaching from the love of my life as he becomes
Speaker 2: unrecognizable to me with a fraction of his resources, so
Speaker 2: she means herself with a fraction of his resources or
Speaker 2: IQ or strategy experience, all the while I didn't see
Speaker 2: one of my babies for five months. Meanwhile, Elon's also
Speaker 2: has been in a dispute with the mother of his
Speaker 2: five children after their divorce in two thousand and eight,
Speaker 2: and this week, the woman who's supposed to have had
Speaker 2: his most recent child, who's five months old, is a
Speaker 2: woman called Ashley Saint Clair. They've been in a public
Speaker 2: back and forth that some of those tweets have now
Speaker 2: been deleted. He denies paternity, even though he says he
Speaker 2: gave lots of money. My god, Yeah, what is going
Speaker 2: on here?
Speaker 5: I was reading through all of these and I've had
Speaker 5: some of Kannye's tweets pop up for me, and they
Speaker 5: are so much worse than you could possibly imagine, from
Speaker 5: racist to sexist to violent, outright violent.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 5: Look, that's the Kanye of it all. And it can
Speaker 5: feel as though this is about celebrity and ridiculousness, but
Speaker 5: there is some kernels in all of this that I
Speaker 5: actually think would be relatable to some women who have
Speaker 5: left toxic partners. What I keep thinking through all of
Speaker 5: this that isn't being discussed and in a lot of
Speaker 5: the articles and the analysis and the podcast and everything,
Speaker 5: are the kids, Like the kids at the center of
Speaker 5: this Northwest can read Northwest has two ears. Recently, doctor
Speaker 5: Fiel did a podcast where he was saying, you know,
Speaker 5: if Kanye keeps this up and Kim does this, both
Speaker 5: of those parents are going to lose custody and basically
Speaker 5: suggesting that these kids are going to go into foster care.
Speaker 1: False equivalence in that, yes, so outrageous.
Speaker 5: Because people are saying Kim isn't protecting those kids either,
Speaker 5: And to that a woman and everyone knows, at least
Speaker 5: one who has had to keep her mouth shut because
Speaker 5: she knows that her child or children are being used
Speaker 5: as a pawn by her ex partner.
Speaker 1: There are but a weapon.
Speaker 5: A weapon, Yeah, exactly right, And if you do something wrong,
Speaker 5: they will punish either you or the children. And so
Speaker 5: I think that Kim, even the copyright thing. I'm looking
Speaker 5: at this going, Kim is doing everything in her power
Speaker 5: to protect those children and that's why we're not hearing
Speaker 5: from her, because she knows that that's what they need.
Speaker 2: And even the also, she's probably going through an enormous
Speaker 2: amount of legal proceedings at the moment that we don't
Speaker 2: know about and that aren't made public, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean. Like the things that we are learning, the
Speaker 2: drip feeding that we are learning, sounds like she would
Speaker 2: be in a world of pain trying to basically stop
Speaker 2: the kids from seeing their death.
Speaker 3: Yes, because Kanye and.
Speaker 1: We don't know this, Yes, probably we don't know this,
Speaker 1: but it does look that way. But from the outside,
Speaker 1: you kind of go, why are they spending any time
Speaker 1: with him, given how he's been over the last couple
Speaker 1: of years and how he has been with Banka sensory
Speaker 1: and all of that. You know, it's really disturbing.
Speaker 5: But then I think Kim, and this is kind of
Speaker 5: what some of the leaks are saying, she doesn't want
Speaker 5: to agitate him, So I think that women. You know,
Speaker 5: there's been cases like that where you sort of go,
Speaker 5: when the court case is called, or when the DVO
Speaker 5: is called in Australia, that's when it's a really dangerous
Speaker 5: moment for a volatile man and so I have so
Speaker 5: much empathy for particularly Kim Kardashian in that. But the
Speaker 5: other thing Kanye said this week in an interview was
Speaker 5: that those kids weren't wanted. He said he wanted, he
Speaker 5: never wanted to have kids with Kim Kardashian, but that's
Speaker 5: not how it went. Like if they don't read it now,
Speaker 5: the trauma of those poor children or even I'm thinking
Speaker 5: Elon's kid, who there is an argument going on on
Speaker 5: Twitter between both his parents where he's alleged father is
Speaker 5: denying paternity, like these are real human beings who are
Speaker 5: going to have to get a lot of therapy one day.
Speaker 2: Elon wanted to have all these children, right, because he's
Speaker 2: what they call a pro natalist, So he believes.
Speaker 1: That populate the world, Yeah.
Speaker 2: People like him, you know, very smart blah blah blah,
Speaker 2: should be the people who are breeding and that they're
Speaker 2: not breeding enough. Because I think his broad worldview is
Speaker 2: that we know that birth rates are declining, particularly among
Speaker 2: educated people, so he's like, right, more babies will needs
Speaker 2: more little Elons. I don't think that many people agree
Speaker 2: with that point at this point anyway, But he clearly
Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily want to be involved with any of these children,
Speaker 2: and in fact, he doesn't. He has disowned his daughter
Speaker 2: and said that she is dead to him because she
Speaker 2: is transgender, and he says the word mind virus killed her.
Speaker 2: And so why I just don't understand these models of fatherhood.
Speaker 2: This is one of the things I think about. It's like,
Speaker 2: you wanted these all these kids, and you're telling everyone
Speaker 2: to have kids, but then your model of fatherhood seems
Speaker 2: completely anticom.
Speaker 5: And if it's IVF that's been recorded for some of
Speaker 5: the children, that's how he had them. And if you
Speaker 5: want to do this unconventional, not that IVF is unconventional,
Speaker 5: but elon Musk having unconventional relationships with the mothers of
Speaker 5: these children. If you want to do that, shouldn't you
Speaker 5: have some sort of contract set in? So I think
Speaker 5: you're a business guy. Don't you make deals for a living.
Speaker 5: How is it that you now have a five month
Speaker 5: old and you're feuding on Twitter about paternity like I
Speaker 5: would imagine.
Speaker 1: And payment that you've locked that down. Yeah, And there
Speaker 1: was a video of Ashley Saint Clair, who is like
Speaker 1: a MAGA influencer, selling her tesla because she said he's
Speaker 1: cut her child support by sixty percent and she needs
Speaker 1: the money. And then there's another mother of one of
Speaker 1: his children who's saying on Twitter. I think it was Grimes, Actually,
Speaker 1: I need your attention. One of our kids needs medical help.
Speaker 1: IY need money. I mean, it's just but while you
Speaker 1: said about what's the model of fatherhood, it's really just
Speaker 1: seed spreading. Like it's literally just populist seed spreading. It's
Speaker 1: not a father in any way that we would recognize
Speaker 1: a father, except biologically, and that's all he wants. I mean,
Speaker 1: people say that his child called X, one of his
Speaker 1: children with crimes, who he had in the Oval office,
Speaker 1: is his favorite, and he sort of doesn't really care
Speaker 1: about all the others. And then there are claims by
Speaker 1: his daughter that he only wants boys. He insists on
Speaker 1: gender selection for all the children he fathers.
Speaker 5: I mean, it's just interesting to note as well how
Speaker 5: much we're hearing from the men and how little we're
Speaker 5: hearing from the women, which is a to do with power, yeah,
Speaker 5: and b I think to do with trying to protect
Speaker 5: the kids.
Speaker 2: But I think you're right Jesse in that although Kim
Speaker 2: Kardashian is one of the least relatable humans on the planet,
Speaker 2: there are a lot of women who know what it's
Speaker 2: like to be locked in this kind of battle with
Speaker 2: many fewer resources than Kim Kardashian has not access to
Speaker 2: that kind of legal support in any way. A man
Speaker 2: who might have something over them or believes that they do,
Speaker 2: and we'll use it against them like this is actually
Speaker 2: quite a familiar story playing out in a very unusual world.
Speaker 3: But what's even more terrifying is that she does have
Speaker 3: all of those resources and still she can't stop him.
Speaker 2: If this conversation has brought up any thing for you,
Speaker 2: resources for support will be listed in our show notes.
Speaker 1: After the break. We're changing Gears, inspired by a couple
Speaker 1: of scenes in White Lotus and an interview with Gwyneth patro.
Speaker 2: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link
Speaker 2: at the show notes to get us in your ears
Speaker 2: five days a week, and a huge thank you to
Speaker 2: all our current subscribers.
Speaker 1: Comedian Nikki Glazer, who you may remember, hosted the Golden
Speaker 1: Globes to Rave Reviews earlier this year. She was so good.
Speaker 1: She's done an interview this week with Gwyneth Paltrow for
Speaker 1: Gwinne's Goop podcast.
Speaker 6: When Nikki talks about.
Speaker 1: How during sex she likes her boyfriend to talk about
Speaker 1: the other women that he's been with.
Speaker 6: Here's what she said, And are you really non monogamous?
Speaker 8: No, I wouldn't mind if my boyfriend were to fool
Speaker 8: around with other.
Speaker 6: Do you really think you wouldn't mind? Has he done it?
Speaker 8: Yeah?
Speaker 6: And you didn't mind?
Speaker 8: Like years ago, there were like a couple times. I
Speaker 8: don't mind as long as the girl knows that it's
Speaker 8: not like cause you know, I think girls sometimes when
Speaker 8: they can be convinced like he's gonna leave her for me,
Speaker 8: it's like that's not gonna happen. So just know what
Speaker 8: this is. I think it's definitely the competition thing of like, ooh,
Speaker 8: maybe he will leave me for her, Okay, I gotta
Speaker 8: step it up. Like I kind of like that, But
Speaker 8: I also like, I think he's hot, and I kind
Speaker 8: of am like try this out, like it's like lending
Speaker 8: like my friend, like a hairdresser.
Speaker 6: I like really, I don't know, Like I'm just like
Speaker 6: have a good time and like I seck, like is
Speaker 6: that a sexual fetish?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 6: I think it's a fetish.
Speaker 8: It's called hot husband. So there's like a hot wife
Speaker 8: fetish that's way more prolific of like men who want
Speaker 8: their wives to be it's not cuckholding, and they're not
Speaker 8: in the corner like what are you doing, or like,
Speaker 8: they're just kind of like they either hear about it
Speaker 8: or they kind of like orchestrate it. And I don't
Speaker 8: want to be a part of it. I think he
Speaker 8: would like me to be a part of a thing
Speaker 8: with someone else, but I don't really I'd rather just
Speaker 8: hear about it later.
Speaker 1: It's actually not the first time she's talked about it.
Speaker 1: Back in twenty twenty two, she said in another interview,
Speaker 1: I'm a wido and I like my boyfriend to at
Speaker 1: least entertain the idea of being with other women or
Speaker 1: be with them. I think it's about like I want
Speaker 1: things that other people want. So now you know, that's
Speaker 1: called hot husband syndrome. And it's funny that she describes
Speaker 1: it as being a weirdo and she says it's a fetish.
Speaker 1: It's also described as a kink, and kinks are really
Speaker 1: having a moment in White Lotus this season. Creator Mike
Speaker 1: White has been exploring some fairly unconventional kinks, which we
Speaker 1: will go into in our subscriber episode tomorrow. Particularly in
Speaker 1: the last couple of episodes, there's been a lot of
Speaker 1: kinks explored. This week, there was also a pretty out
Speaker 1: there description of one kink that involved someone accidentally seeing
Speaker 1: his parents having sex and wanting to recreate that with
Speaker 1: his girlfriend and another man.
Speaker 5: There's also been the sort of incest storyline, and there's
Speaker 5: also been, of course, Sam Rockwell talking about cours monologue
Speaker 5: where he talked about the most creative kink, desiring something
Speaker 5: so much that you want to be it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Jesse, do you think it's a good thing that
Speaker 1: people are sharing their kinks publicly?
Speaker 5: Look, I find it fascinating, and I think that the
Speaker 5: way Mike White has done it in The White Lotus
Speaker 5: is very engrossing because the undercurrent to what he is
Speaker 5: saying is that kinks aren't only about sex. I don't
Speaker 5: think that he's doing it to be gratuitous or to
Speaker 5: be a rousing, but to explore power and relationships in
Speaker 5: a fresh way. But I do think that Mike White's job,
Speaker 5: especially this season on The White Lotus, has become harder
Speaker 5: because to present an audience with a kink they haven't
Speaker 5: heard of is near impossible.
Speaker 3: I mean obviously this season. Yeah, Yeah, that's what I mean.
Speaker 5: It's like the proliferation of pornography means that all of
Speaker 5: these things we could never have imagined, or maybe people
Speaker 5: were imagining, but they just didn't have a word for.
Speaker 5: Like the subculture of sex means that you can now
Speaker 5: find certain communities.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're in a drop down menu. So it's
Speaker 2: like if you can easily go into a place and
Speaker 2: type in what you're interested in, and then there's a
Speaker 2: whole list of a whole lot of other things. It's
Speaker 2: kind of opening your mind in a way that that
Speaker 2: wasn't really possible before.
Speaker 1: And then you discover what turns.
Speaker 5: And then what happened does, of course, is it normalizes it.
Speaker 5: And once something becomes normalized, it's no longer a kink,
Speaker 5: which is why I think that kinks can become wilder
Speaker 5: and wilder, like this sort of it didn't begin with it,
Speaker 5: but I think it popularized. Kink culture was fifty shades
Speaker 5: of gray, and now we imagine that being remade and
Speaker 5: parts of that are no longer subversive because it's like, oh,
Speaker 5: that's just become mainstream talking about kinks. I always find
Speaker 5: it really funny because podcasts have done this increasingly. I
Speaker 5: think it can be a really good thing. I think
Speaker 5: that probably same sex marriage and a revolution when it
Speaker 5: came to LGBT sexuality means that what sex means and
Speaker 5: what sex acts looks like has widened. But podcasts you'll
Speaker 5: hear people talk about kinks, and I always think kinks
Speaker 5: require a sexually arousing context, and for people who aren't
Speaker 5: sexually aroused by you in this moment, this just sounds
Speaker 5: kind of weird.
Speaker 1: But even on on White Lotus, yeah, it was being described,
Speaker 1: and even the person that was being described to who
Speaker 1: was being invited to participate, was like, no.
Speaker 3: No, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: And that's interesting because there's also a thing called kinkshape,
Speaker 1: which is when someone tells you their kink that you
Speaker 1: go ooh, yuck. But there was that app that we
Speaker 1: spoke about on the show where you can put all
Speaker 1: your kinks in and then your partner puts all their
Speaker 1: kinks in and it only shows the ones that match,
Speaker 1: or all the things that you're willing.
Speaker 2: To try, which is the important part, right because the
Speaker 2: unspoken part about this is the sort of mixin creep
Speaker 2: as it were, that can easily tip into more dangerous territory.
Speaker 2: But back for a second to Niki Glazer. I loved
Speaker 2: hearing her talk about that.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: That interview is all kinds of strange in lots of ways,
Speaker 2: but that part of it was so interesting. So honest,
Speaker 2: I love hearing women subvert the stereotypes about jealousy and
Speaker 2: all those things. And she went on to explain that
Speaker 2: one of the things she thinks she loves about it
Speaker 2: is that when you've been in a long term relationship,
Speaker 2: and she's been with this guy for lots of years,
Speaker 2: one of the things you miss and you mourn is
Speaker 2: that frizon of first meeting someone and being attracted that
Speaker 2: she describes it as like, oh, is he really put
Speaker 2: my very close to his leg under the table, and
Speaker 2: how exciting that is, and how you'll never have that
Speaker 2: again if you're signing up for vanilla monogamy, that is
Speaker 2: a feeling you will never experience again, and she wants
Speaker 2: to recreate it via him. I found that so interesting.
Speaker 2: But on the other side of it, I had to
Speaker 2: think about our friend Armie Hammer on the Louis Theroux podcast,
Speaker 2: which you guys talked.
Speaker 1: About a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 2: His broad defense against the abuse allegations against him is
Speaker 2: that this was very consensual kinks like kink dating, almost
Speaker 2: that this was a world he was part of and
Speaker 2: everybody was on the same page. And that may well
Speaker 2: be true, but it also might not be true, which
Speaker 2: is why it's kind of It can be a convenient
Speaker 2: coverall if you are too much in the oh, this
Speaker 2: is just a kink and you're totally into it, it
Speaker 2: can be a convenient coverall for more yea more toxic behaviortion.
Speaker 5: But I reckon that's a good point, because I think
Speaker 5: that dating apps have given way to an explosion in
Speaker 5: kink culture because it is far easier to express something
Speaker 5: you're into over a phone, perhaps with a stranger, than
Speaker 5: it is with a romantic partner looking them in the.
Speaker 2: Eye and worried about feeling judged.
Speaker 5: And yes, I also I was reading that gen Z
Speaker 5: are the kinkiest because of their exposure to pornography. It's
Speaker 5: like their from Yes, there was a great quote from it,
Speaker 5: a gen Z person who said vanilla is the new frigid.
Speaker 3: So if you're someone.
Speaker 1: So what about vanilla shaming?
Speaker 6: That sucks.
Speaker 1: But back to Nicki Glazer and the White Lotus. The
Speaker 1: other thing that they have in common is that there's
Speaker 1: a thing called nemdic desire, which is being turned on
Speaker 1: by someone else wanting the person, and so Mike Whites
Speaker 1: explored this in every single season. So in the first
Speaker 1: season there were the two girlfriends and the one played
Speaker 1: by Sidney Sweeney went and cracked onto the boyfriend of
Speaker 1: her friend, and then the same thing happened between the
Speaker 1: married couples in season two, and now in season three
Speaker 1: it's played out with the three friends and Jacqueline and Valentine,
Speaker 1: and she encourages her friend to go for this other
Speaker 1: guy and then she sleeps with the other guy. And
Speaker 1: that's what Niki Glaze was talking about as well, And
Speaker 1: she says that early on, for the first few years
Speaker 1: in their relationship, because I've been together on and off
Speaker 1: for thirteen years, she would just get him to describe
Speaker 1: having sex with other women. But then she said, he
Speaker 1: ran out of stories to tell me, so then I
Speaker 1: had to say to him, go out and get some
Speaker 1: more stories and bring them back to the cave. She
Speaker 1: was saying, that's her kink, is being turned on by
Speaker 1: other women having the hots for her partner. Well, gosh,
Speaker 1: we've really covered a lot in this show.
Speaker 2: It's all weird.
Speaker 1: And a cup of tea and I lie down.
Speaker 2: I think. Thank you out loud us for being with
Speaker 2: us listening to our show as you always do. We
Speaker 2: love it, we appreciate it. We also appreciate our fabulous
Speaker 2: team for helping us put it to go. Bye t shirt, guys.
Speaker 1: Shirt and you can wear it, wear it to the
Speaker 1: live show.
Speaker 3: And we have some bangers of some subs episodes this week.
Speaker 5: So yesterday's subscriber episode was all about adolescence. We've been
Speaker 5: desperate to put this episode together with all the theories,
Speaker 5: all the tidbits about how it was made, why it
Speaker 5: was shot in one scene, the things you might have
Speaker 5: missed upon watching it, and then the conversation that's evolved,
Speaker 5: some of the criticisms that have emerged.
Speaker 3: We unpack all of that.
Speaker 5: In yesterday's subscriber episode, and then tomorrow watch out because
Speaker 5: our Whiteladus subs is dropping a link as always will
Speaker 5: be in the show notes.
Speaker 3: Bye bye bye.
Speaker 1: Shout out to any mum and Maya subscribers listening if
Speaker 1: you love the show and want to support us as well.
Speaker 1: Subscribing to Mom and Miya is the very.
Speaker 6: Best way to do so. There is a link in
Speaker 6: the episode description