Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded on Sorry Helen, stay
Speaker 2: late tonight. Yeah, I just realized I'm going to miss
Speaker 2: them last train, I think. And also it's my fiance's birthday.
Speaker 3: Don't worry about me, honestly, I'll come or just sleep
Speaker 3: on Excel.
Speaker 1: For Mama Mia.
Speaker 4: I'm your host, Ashani Dante. Welcome to But are you happy?
Speaker 4: Because self diagnosing in the group chat isn't therapy?
Speaker 2: And I'm doctor Anastagia hernis a clinical psychologist passionate about
Speaker 2: happiness and mental health. Now have you ever said yes
Speaker 2: to your boss when what you really wanted to say
Speaker 2: was no? Or when was the last time you agreed
Speaker 2: with a colleague even when your gut was telling you
Speaker 2: that they were wrong.
Speaker 4: I feel like if I could raise not only one hand,
Speaker 4: but all of my limbs right now stress how relatable
Speaker 4: this subject is, I would look.
Speaker 2: To be fair. My hand is up to We've all
Speaker 2: done this at some point, but a lot of us
Speaker 2: find that it can become quite a habit or a
Speaker 2: coping mechanism. And this is what we call people pleasing.
Speaker 4: People pleasing in the workplace. So much to unpack in
Speaker 4: this let's do it so a few episodes back. Back
Speaker 4: in episode two, we learned how to say no to
Speaker 4: the people we love most. But today we're going to
Speaker 4: be talking about how to say no in the workplace
Speaker 4: because we.
Speaker 1: Know that there is a difference. There isn't there.
Speaker 2: Absolutely there's a similarity of both involve us saying no,
Speaker 2: using our assertive skills and trying to do so in
Speaker 2: a kind and respectful way, But they're really different situations
Speaker 2: that we might navigate differently.
Speaker 4: So, starting from the top, why do we say yes
Speaker 4: so much in the workplace?
Speaker 2: There's not one clear answer to this, ye, right, so
Speaker 2: there's a few different reasons. Absolutely. So we've talked a
Speaker 2: little bit about this before, but we have a natural
Speaker 2: desire to please, and we've talked about how from an
Speaker 2: evolutionary perspective, this is fundamental for a sense of safety
Speaker 2: and protection. We want to be liked, We want to
Speaker 2: be part of the pack, and from prehistoric times that
Speaker 2: was crucial for our safety to be liked by other
Speaker 2: people because we'd then be protected by them. Right. So
Speaker 2: this is a very kind of primal biological part of
Speaker 2: why we might nowadays say yes in certain situations we
Speaker 2: want to be liked. But there's other reasons too. We
Speaker 2: might say yes when we actually mean no in the
Speaker 2: workplace because we want to avoid conflict. No one likes conflict.
Speaker 2: I don't like conflicts. I don't either, so it makes sense.
Speaker 2: But it might be that some people are more sort
Speaker 2: of conflict avoidant than others. People might be anxious to
Speaker 2: say no. We're not sure how other people are going
Speaker 2: to respond. We're not sure how our boss is going
Speaker 2: to take it if we say no to them, so
Speaker 2: that can be a bit anxiety provoked. Sometimes people have
Speaker 2: what I would say is a false expectation that people
Speaker 2: pleasing is going to actually help them get ahead in
Speaker 2: their career. If I say yes to everything, if I'm
Speaker 2: the person that takes on every task and does it
Speaker 2: as best as I can and livers everything on time,
Speaker 2: then I'm going to get ahead. And to that, I say, maybe, right,
Speaker 2: Maybe that's part of it, but probably what you'll find
Speaker 2: is that you get more and more work because you're
Speaker 2: the person who's reliable and always says yes. So you're
Speaker 2: going to be the go to person when someone has
Speaker 2: a task that they want someone to do because we
Speaker 2: know you'll say yes.
Speaker 4: So interesting you're saying that, because I can imagine so
Speaker 4: many people tuning in now listening. And also I see
Speaker 4: this in myself, especially when we're young and we're at
Speaker 4: an early stage in our career, like we do feel
Speaker 4: like we do need to say yes. You know, I
Speaker 4: hear this term all the time around. You've got to
Speaker 4: earn your stripes, you know. So it is I like
Speaker 4: that you said maybe because there is both sides to it.
Speaker 2: Yes, and there's definitely that part of us needing to
Speaker 2: kind of prove ourselves. I want to say that right,
Speaker 2: prove ourselves in the workplace, show our boss, our colleagues,
Speaker 2: whoever it might be, that we can get the job done,
Speaker 2: that we're willing to jump in two feet and get
Speaker 2: involved in projects, whatever it might be. But there's a
Speaker 2: difference between being willing and people pleasing and not being
Speaker 2: able to be assertive and say no when we need to.
Speaker 2: And that's a healthy boundary for all of us to
Speaker 2: be able to learn. And it kind of relates to
Speaker 2: what I would say is a personality trait that some
Speaker 2: people have around agreeableness.
Speaker 1: Can you tell me more about that.
Speaker 2: That sounds interesting, Yes, So I'm gonna we'll do a
Speaker 2: little bit of personality one oh one. Right, So there's
Speaker 2: a model of personality that's got the acronym ocean, so
Speaker 2: it refers to different personality traits that we all have,
Speaker 2: and we sit on a spectrum of right. So the
Speaker 2: O stands for openness. Now open and are we to
Speaker 2: new experiences, to new ways of thinking to other people.
Speaker 2: Some of us are very open, some of us are
Speaker 2: more closed. So the O stands for open. The C
Speaker 2: stands for conscientiousness. Where do I sit on a spectrum
Speaker 2: of how conscientious I am in life? The E stands
Speaker 2: for extraversion. We've probably many of us have heard of
Speaker 2: extraversion and introversion. Again, that's somewhere on a spectrum that
Speaker 2: will sit. The A stands for agreeableness. So some of
Speaker 2: us are very agreeable. Where yes, people we like to please.
Speaker 2: We don't like conflict. On the other end of that
Speaker 2: is antagonism. So people who are more hostile, who will
Speaker 2: often say no, who put their own needs first, And
Speaker 2: for anyone listening out there who wants to know more
Speaker 2: about that, tune in to our next upcoming episode where
Speaker 2: we talk about narcissism because that very much relates to
Speaker 2: this flavor of antagonism. And then the final one N
Speaker 2: in our model stands for neuroticism. So kind of like
Speaker 2: how anxiously pro we are to being sort of on
Speaker 2: some sort of spectrum of neuroticism. That's our personality one
Speaker 2: oh one. But I guess what we're focusing here is
Speaker 2: specifically around that personality trait of agreeableness. So people pleasing
Speaker 2: in the workplace is often linked to someone who is
Speaker 2: high on the personality trait of agreeableness.
Speaker 4: This is I actually never knew about this model, so
Speaker 4: I'm learning all of it in real time because as
Speaker 4: you're talking, I think about friends in my life or
Speaker 4: you know, people that I've coached in the past, and
Speaker 4: when it comes to say no, Like, you can have
Speaker 4: all the tools in the toolkit and have all the
Speaker 4: self awareness, but sometimes I do wonder there are some
Speaker 4: people that just better at say no.
Speaker 1: So is that a personality thing? Like some people.
Speaker 4: Genuinely that's just how they are, Like is that fixed?
Speaker 1: Can you change that?
Speaker 2: Good question? Yes?
Speaker 4: And no?
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, So there are parts of our personality that
Speaker 2: are very integral to who we are and are not
Speaker 2: easy to change. Right, They're pretty foundational and fundamental. If
Speaker 2: we think about this concept of temperament, and when we
Speaker 2: think about young children, some young kids are just born
Speaker 2: more anxious than other kids. We see this even from
Speaker 2: the zero to kind of two year old period in
Speaker 2: a young child's life. Babies and kids are born with
Speaker 2: different temperaments. So there is a part of it that
Speaker 2: really is quite biological and can be hard to change.
Speaker 2: But it's not to say that we can't learn skills
Speaker 2: to be able to navigate that. If I am someone
Speaker 2: who's more agreeable or someone who's more neurotic, or whatever
Speaker 2: it might be, I can learn skills to manage the
Speaker 2: part of me that might be that default that doesn't
Speaker 2: always help me in a situation.
Speaker 1: This is really good to know.
Speaker 4: So right now, so we've kind of unpacked a lot
Speaker 4: of reasons why we say yes in the workplace. Something
Speaker 4: I'm keen to hear more about is like, what are
Speaker 4: the consequences? Like what happens if we keep saying yes
Speaker 4: in the workplace?
Speaker 2: We get more work? But what's the consequence of that? Yeah,
Speaker 2: So I think this is where we get into the
Speaker 2: topic of burnout, right, And I think it's a really
Speaker 2: important one for us to talk about because we are
Speaker 2: seeing increasing rates of burnout in the workplace, and we're
Speaker 2: actually seeing a lot of young people report that they're
Speaker 2: experiencing burnout early on in their careers. And so I
Speaker 2: do think about how much this might be linked to
Speaker 2: being early in your career wanting to say yes, maybe
Speaker 2: saying yes a little bit too much, but then also
Speaker 2: getting burnt out really quickly and.
Speaker 4: It's really hard. And I think this kind of weaves
Speaker 4: back into some of the things. Of the reasons why
Speaker 4: we say yes all the time is because we do
Speaker 4: create all these stories. And I had been like, Okay,
Speaker 4: but if I say no, I'm going to miss this opportunity,
Speaker 4: someone else is going to take it. And then we
Speaker 4: create these compelling narratives that keeps us stuck insane.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, the work fomo'. That's another reason why we might.
Speaker 1: Say, do you do you feel the work? Fomo?
Speaker 2: I am so guilty of the world. Oh, if there's
Speaker 2: an exciting project, or like I do a lot of
Speaker 2: research with university, right, someone's doing a project that sounds
Speaker 2: interesting to me, I'm like, oh, do I have time
Speaker 2: to take this on. I really want to get involved,
Speaker 2: and it's the phomo. I'm like, that sounds fun, that
Speaker 2: sounds exciting, it sounds interesting. I want to jump in,
Speaker 2: and I'll be really sad if I don't. But you've learned?
Speaker 4: Do you have you learnt the balance now of like
Speaker 4: discerning or is that just a.
Speaker 1: Constant journey for you?
Speaker 2: It's an ongoing journey. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all about being authentic here.
Speaker 4: You know, we give all the tools and the tricks
Speaker 4: of the trade, but we're still embodying it. So okay,
Speaker 4: So coming back to it, you did mention burnout, so
Speaker 4: and I think it is very relatable and it's really
Speaker 4: you spoke to the fact around a lot of young
Speaker 4: people burning out.
Speaker 1: What is burnout like? Unpack it for us?
Speaker 2: So, burnout is essentially both a physical and psychological state
Speaker 2: that we can enter where we experience extreme exhaustion. And
Speaker 2: this is often related to the workplace, but I also
Speaker 2: want to say it doesn't have to be work specific, right,
Speaker 2: We can burn out in different ways in any kind
Speaker 2: of role where we feel like we've got some sort
Speaker 2: of pressure or expectation on us, or we're really devoting
Speaker 2: ourselves to it. So parents can experience parental burnout. If
Speaker 2: we're caring for a sick or an elderly family member,
Speaker 2: we can experience care a burnout. If I'm someone who
Speaker 2: advocates for a cause I'm thinking of, you know, the
Speaker 2: grace Tames of the world who are there like fighting
Speaker 2: the good fight on the front line, but consistently having
Speaker 2: to advocate. Those people can burn out as well. So
Speaker 2: burnout is not just works specific. It's this sort of
Speaker 2: fatigue and intense exhaustion that we can feel from stress
Speaker 2: and repeated stress.
Speaker 1: So what does that actually look like?
Speaker 2: Signs and symptoms to look out for. Okay, So three
Speaker 2: key categories of symptoms. Okay, So the first one is
Speaker 2: around energy, So energy depletion, exhaustion of energy. I feel
Speaker 2: like when I get up in the morning, even if
Speaker 2: I've had the best night sleep, I don't have energy
Speaker 2: to get up and go and do the thing I
Speaker 2: need to do, go to work, do the tasks I
Speaker 2: need to do. So the first one's about this sort
Speaker 2: of depletion of energy. The second one is around mentality
Speaker 2: and kind of our outlook towards our work. So we
Speaker 2: might become really quite cynical. We might become really quite
Speaker 2: detached from our work. We might be really sort of apathetic.
Speaker 2: We might become really resentful to the people in the office.
Speaker 2: We go into the office and people are having their
Speaker 2: you know, morning cup of coffee and having a laugh,
Speaker 2: and we're like, what are they laughing about? You know,
Speaker 2: and it's probably got nothing to do with the fact
Speaker 2: that they're laughing, But we're burnt out, so we become
Speaker 2: quite cynical and almost resentful towards other people. And then
Speaker 2: the last sort of category of symptoms is around our productivity,
Speaker 2: but also our feeling of our sense of accomplishment. So
Speaker 2: it might be that we are actually doing less than
Speaker 2: we usually do or what we need to do, but
Speaker 2: we also don't feel that sense of satisfaction and accomplishment
Speaker 2: when we do achieve tasks at work.
Speaker 4: As you're talking about the signs and symptoms, I'm just
Speaker 4: reflecting and being like, wow, okay, yeah, I was burnt
Speaker 4: out then. So it is a lot of bringing self
Speaker 4: awareness to all of this, you know, balancing all with kindness.
Speaker 4: So I'm really keen to hear because as you're talking
Speaker 4: about the signs and symptoms, one of them is around
Speaker 4: like exhaustion, and you know, essentially not.
Speaker 1: Feeling it in the job.
Speaker 4: So how can you tell the difference between you being
Speaker 4: burnt out versus I'm actually just lacking passion and purpose
Speaker 4: in this job.
Speaker 2: We certainly don't have to love our job, and we
Speaker 2: certainly don't have to feel like it's our identity or
Speaker 2: it's our bigger purpose in life. Right, So it's not
Speaker 2: to say that we need to turn up to work
Speaker 2: enthusiastic and super happy to be there. And I couldn't
Speaker 2: think of anywhere I would rather be than at worked today,
Speaker 2: even though the sun shining and a beach would be nice. Right,
Speaker 2: So that's not necessarily what we're aiming for. But we
Speaker 2: don't want to feel like we are exhausted to the
Speaker 2: point where everything feels like a struggle at work. I
Speaker 2: open my emails and I see ten emails sitting there,
Speaker 2: and I go, good lord, I couldn't think of anything worse.
Speaker 2: Right now. We don't want that experience. We don't want
Speaker 2: an experience of resentment and cynicism, right. And this is
Speaker 2: a really big one. I think this is actually the
Speaker 2: biggest one to spot internally. If people are wanting to
Speaker 2: do some self reflection, there's a difference between turning up
Speaker 2: to work and being like, it's a job. That's fine,
Speaker 2: it pays the bills. That's that's what I'm here for. Right.
Speaker 2: That's a kind of like neutral emotional attachment to my work.
Speaker 2: There's a big difference between feeling like, you know, what,
Speaker 2: job's a job, it pays the bills. I rock up,
Speaker 2: I do my thing, I go home. It is what
Speaker 2: it is, right. That's quite a neutral attachment to work.
Speaker 2: I'm kind of neither here nor there about it. That's
Speaker 2: very different to feeling cynical and resentful to my work
Speaker 2: and to the workplace and to the people that I
Speaker 2: work with as well. So that's a really big indicator
Speaker 2: that if you're not burnt out, you might be somewhere
Speaker 2: on a pathway to burn out.
Speaker 4: Yeah. And I think it's really interesting too because as
Speaker 4: you're speaking to it, it's also good for all of
Speaker 4: us if you are in a workplace to be mindful
Speaker 4: as well, Like, you know, we don't actually know what's
Speaker 4: going on. For other people, they might be a little
Speaker 4: bit more you know, off the cuff with comments and
Speaker 4: things like that. And I think it's important to bring
Speaker 4: a bit more empathy in the workplace too, So I
Speaker 4: guess another question I have is what happens if people
Speaker 4: pleasing is rewarded in the workplace?
Speaker 2: So the question I would ask is how is it
Speaker 2: being rewarded? Right? So when you say it's being rewarded,
Speaker 2: my immediate thought is what's reward Right? Is reward that
Speaker 2: this person is managing to make leaps and bounds in
Speaker 2: their career because of their people pleasing, or is reward
Speaker 2: like they're getting more attention from the boss. But you know,
Speaker 2: what's their goal? Right? Is their goal to sort of
Speaker 2: like move up the ranks in the company, or is
Speaker 2: their goal to sort of get enough experience to move
Speaker 2: to another workplace? What's the goal for that person and
Speaker 2: is their behavior helping them achieve that? Because I think
Speaker 2: that's really different to do. I just feel like I'm
Speaker 2: getting recognition, which feels good, but practically for the purposes
Speaker 2: of my career, maybe doesn't achieve a whole lot, Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's useful, but maybe it's not getting me the pay rise,
Speaker 2: or maybe it's not getting me that promotion that I'm seeking.
Speaker 2: So I question this, this kind of notion of people
Speaker 2: pleasing being rewarded because I would want to know.
Speaker 4: How, Yeah, because it's interesting too, and something I've observed
Speaker 4: with working across generations. It's kind of like I find
Speaker 4: with the gen X and like younger generations, there's different
Speaker 4: kind of ways of working. I feel like I find
Speaker 4: with young people that I've worked with, they're probably better
Speaker 4: it's sending boundaries, whereas I find like a lot of
Speaker 4: gen X is they look at that and kind of
Speaker 4: question it. And it's not in like a one's right
Speaker 4: or wrong. It's just we've grown up, you know, working differently.
Speaker 2: Yes, And I think we can sometimes overcorrect as well, right,
Speaker 2: Like we see this happen in society all the time.
Speaker 2: And I would be cautious and curiously asking people who
Speaker 2: are early in their careers to yes, set the boundaries.
Speaker 2: No way, and you're going to say no to a
Speaker 2: boss when you're being asked to do something. And at
Speaker 2: the same time, there are probably gonna be situations where
Speaker 2: quote unquote people pleasing or being agreeable or stepping into
Speaker 2: something with a willingness to maybe go a little bit
Speaker 2: above and beyond what we normally would is actually going
Speaker 2: to be a good thing. And to do that every
Speaker 2: so often isn't bad. We're not being taken advantage of
Speaker 2: where not as long as we don't feel like we
Speaker 2: have to do it. If we can do it with willingness,
Speaker 2: and we can do it in moderation, then great.
Speaker 4: And it is it's kind of like, yes, still work
Speaker 4: hard because sometimes I think we can weaponize the whole
Speaker 4: boundary thing and being like, oh, I don't know, but
Speaker 4: it's important to work hard and build that grit and
Speaker 4: muscle and something. You know, I'm really grateful of you know,
Speaker 4: I'm still young, but I'm grateful I've worked really hard in.
Speaker 1: The first ten years.
Speaker 4: But something I'm also keen to unpack too, Like, especially
Speaker 4: people who are in the workplace and they've got employees
Speaker 4: and maybe younger or may have some people please behave
Speaker 4: What would you say to them to make sure they're
Speaker 4: not taking advantage of people pleases in the workplace?
Speaker 2: Are we the problem is what you're asking? Am I
Speaker 2: the problems? Oh?
Speaker 4: God?
Speaker 2: Well, So this is the first thing I'm going to say,
Speaker 2: because I think this is a complex question that calls
Speaker 2: for self reflection. The boundaries that we might be willing
Speaker 2: to set for ourselves are not what we should expect
Speaker 2: other people to set for themselves. So I am someone
Speaker 2: you know, I'm going to put my hand up and
Speaker 2: admit I will sometimes work in the evening. You know,
Speaker 2: I've got a business of what different things I do.
Speaker 2: There are evenings that I will work, right, I'm okay
Speaker 2: with that. Like I love my job, I love what
Speaker 2: I do. I'm okay with working some longer hours. Sometimes
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean that I can expect that from my
Speaker 2: employees or from other people that work with me. So
Speaker 2: just because a boundary is okay for me, doesn't mean
Speaker 2: it's okay for someone else. So I think it's always
Speaker 2: really important to remember that everyone's going to have a
Speaker 2: different sense of what works for them and how it
Speaker 2: works for them, And we don't want to ever be
Speaker 2: in a situation where we're imposing our way of working
Speaker 2: onto someone else.
Speaker 4: So it's really interesting because when I'm hearing is that
Speaker 4: so often I feel like burnout is rewarded, you know,
Speaker 4: in the hustle culture, you know, work the longest hours.
Speaker 4: But actually what I'm hearing is that it's doing a
Speaker 4: complete opposite and no one's giving you that reward when
Speaker 4: you're lying down in bed completely burnt out. Exactly right,
Speaker 4: What are the pros of agreeableness.
Speaker 2: I love this question because agreeable people are lovely. Yes,
Speaker 2: they're the light. They're empathetic, they're kind, they're great to
Speaker 2: work with, great at collaboration. Right, They're just really lovely
Speaker 2: people who are great at building relationships. So if you're
Speaker 2: working with someone who's agreeable, and you're working in an
Speaker 2: industry or a sector where building relationships is really important,
Speaker 2: your agreeable colleagues are going to do really well at
Speaker 2: that and be a really great asset in the workplace.
Speaker 1: So it's not all bad.
Speaker 2: It's not all bad.
Speaker 1: There's good things to it.
Speaker 4: After this shortbreak, doctor Anastasia is going to teach us
Speaker 4: a method to help us stop our people pleasing in
Speaker 4: its tracks. Stay with us, Okay, Atastasia, I'm going to
Speaker 4: cheat a little and I'm going to ask you for
Speaker 4: two techniques today. The first one is how do we
Speaker 4: say no in the workplace that doesn't, you know, jeopardize
Speaker 4: our career? And the second one is what do you
Speaker 4: do if you're noticing signs of burnout. Let's start with
Speaker 4: the first one. How do we say no?
Speaker 2: How do we say no? Yep, beyond just saying no.
Speaker 1: Yes, we need more, we need more guidance.
Speaker 2: So what I'm going to do is ground this technique
Speaker 2: in the concept of assertive now, right, So we hear
Speaker 2: assertiveness talked about, but what is assertive communication? Assertiveness is
Speaker 2: fundamentally all about respect. Okay. So if we think about
Speaker 2: communication styles as existing on some sort of spectrum. Down
Speaker 2: one end of the spectrum, we have passive communication, so
Speaker 2: this is where where people pleases, we say yes when
Speaker 2: we may know. We might be quite timid in our approach.
Speaker 2: Our tone of voice might be quite soft and a
Speaker 2: bit apologetic. So this is our more passive style of communication.
Speaker 2: On the other end of the spectrum, we have aggressive communication.
Speaker 2: So this is very strong, very loud, maybe a bit
Speaker 2: in someone's personal space, quite direct. You're not using our
Speaker 2: pleas and thank yous, you know, this sort of aggressive
Speaker 2: style of communicating with others. And in the middle we
Speaker 2: have assertiveness. So where does respect come into this. If
Speaker 2: we're passive in our communication style, the person we don't
Speaker 2: respect is ourselves. If we're aggressive in our communication style,
Speaker 2: the person we're not respecting is whoever we're talking to.
Speaker 2: Assertive communication is the ability to speak with someone where
Speaker 2: we respect them and we respect ourselves. So if we
Speaker 2: break down what does assertive communication look sound, feel like.
Speaker 2: It's direct, it's clear, we don't have too many arms
Speaker 2: and h's. We use eye statements to communicate I think this,
Speaker 2: I feel this, not you did this. You are this.
Speaker 2: Our body language where confidence, where our shoulders are rolled back,
Speaker 2: we stand up tall. We have a kind but confident
Speaker 2: tone of voice. We feel comfortable making eye contact, but
Speaker 2: we're not staring someone down right, So when we think
Speaker 2: about assertive communication, it's important to think about how we
Speaker 2: hold that assertiveness in our body, in our face, in
Speaker 2: terms of our facial expressions, and in our tone of voice.
Speaker 4: This is really good because it's nice to get these
Speaker 4: dot points conceptually, and I'm wondering if there's also a
Speaker 4: way to further break it down, like an example of
Speaker 4: what we actually say next time in the workplace.
Speaker 2: Yes, so I'm going to teach all our listeners a
Speaker 2: four step method of what to say when you're trying
Speaker 2: to be assertive in an interaction. Now, this is great
Speaker 2: for the workplace, it can translate outside of the workplace
Speaker 2: as well, So don't feel like it's just for the workplace.
Speaker 2: But we want to use this method when we're trying
Speaker 2: to achieve some sort of objective. We have a goal
Speaker 2: of what we're trying to communicate. We're not focused on
Speaker 2: developing a deep and meaningful relationship with this person. We're
Speaker 2: trying to communicate something that's important to us. So we
Speaker 2: use the acronym D, D, EA, R. So I'm going
Speaker 2: to tell you what each of those stands for. So
Speaker 2: D stands for describe. Your first sentence is going to
Speaker 2: be describing the situation. So let me come up with
Speaker 2: an example. Your boss asks you to do this extra work,
Speaker 2: but it's four forty five and you're meant to be
Speaker 2: clocking off in in fifteen minutes. Maybe not too dissimilar
Speaker 2: to what the person at the start of the episode
Speaker 2: was talking about working till eleven PM at night. Right, okay,
Speaker 2: So D stands for describe, describe the situation. Hi Bob,
Speaker 2: you've asked me as them I could think of in
Speaker 2: the moment. Hi Bob, you've asked me to do this
Speaker 2: work and get these documents completed by first thing tomorrow morning.
Speaker 2: But it's now four thirty. E for express, This is
Speaker 2: where we use our eye statements to say what we think,
Speaker 2: what we feel, what our opinion is. I think it's
Speaker 2: gonna be a bit of a push for me to
Speaker 2: get these done by first thing tomorrow morning. A is assert.
Speaker 2: We assert what we want or what we would like.
Speaker 2: I would really love it if you could just give
Speaker 2: me an extra, say half a day, and maybe I
Speaker 2: could get these to you by noon tomorrow. R stands
Speaker 2: for reinforce. We want to tell that person why they
Speaker 2: should get on board with our request, why it's going
Speaker 2: to be good for them and for us. If I
Speaker 2: could get these to you by noon, it would take
Speaker 2: a lot of the pressure off me, and I think
Speaker 2: I'd be able to do a better quality job and
Speaker 2: not rush through the process. So what that sounds like
Speaker 2: overall would be something like this, Hi, Bob, I know
Speaker 2: you've given me these documents and you said you want
Speaker 2: them by first thing tomorrow. I think that's going to
Speaker 2: be a bit of a stretch for me, and I'm
Speaker 2: not going to get them in time. What I would
Speaker 2: like instead is maybe if I could get these to
Speaker 2: you by twelve pm mid day tomorrow, that would be
Speaker 2: really helpful for me. It takes some of the pressure off,
Speaker 2: and I actually think I'd be able to do a
Speaker 2: much better job of the documents So.
Speaker 4: It's really interesting when you were saying that, is that
Speaker 4: you didn't say sorry at all.
Speaker 2: I didn't say sorry. No, I didn't apologize.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: See, this is what's going to be.
Speaker 4: I find quite challenging because I feel like for myself,
Speaker 4: but I can speak like I've witnessed in you so
Speaker 4: many women, it's so easy to keep saying sorry, especially
Speaker 4: saying sorry to request from someone that is of a
Speaker 4: higher power than you in the workplace. So it sounds
Speaker 4: like that can be challenging, like it's a muscle, right,
Speaker 4: Like this might take time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and look, I'm not anti as sorry, right, So
Speaker 2: if someone wanted to do that dear conversation and say, look,
Speaker 2: I'm really sorry, but I don't think I'm going to
Speaker 2: get this done by the end of the day, I wouldn't.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say, like, how dare you say sorry? You
Speaker 2: have nothing to apologize for? Maybe you have nothing to
Speaker 2: apologize for. But I think we can use sorry in
Speaker 2: a way that is polite and sort of you know,
Speaker 2: demonstrates respect for one another. What we don't want to
Speaker 2: do is over apologize, right. We don't want to be
Speaker 2: so guilt written and so apologetic that every sentence has
Speaker 2: a sorry in it. We don't want to do that.
Speaker 2: But if we drop a sorry in there, I don't
Speaker 2: think that's the end of the world either. The other
Speaker 2: thing we don't want to do, which you might notice
Speaker 2: when I did the dear, is keep it short and simple.
Speaker 2: We don't need to over explain ourselves. I'm not going
Speaker 2: to go to Bob and be like, but I have
Speaker 2: this task, and I have this task, and then I'll
Speaker 2: have to get in really early tomorrow morning if I
Speaker 2: have to finish it by ah, Bob, don't care. Bob's busy.
Speaker 2: It got shit to do, right, Just like get to
Speaker 2: the point, keep it simple. I often say max one
Speaker 2: sentence per letter, describe, express, assert, reinforce, and only use
Speaker 2: one simple sentence for each of those.
Speaker 4: So then what happened? So we've got the dear technique.
Speaker 4: Now we're going to start using it. But what's going
Speaker 4: to happen now, especially with you've been in the workplace,
Speaker 4: then you've always said yes. So now you're setting your boundaries.
Speaker 4: You know, you know your worth and Bob's kind of geting.
Speaker 1: Triggered by that.
Speaker 4: You know, how do you reset that dynamic? Because it
Speaker 4: is going to bring up stuff.
Speaker 2: Right, Yes, change rocks the boat, right, And if we're
Speaker 2: in any kind of dynamic with someone and one person
Speaker 2: changes from how they've been consistently showing up, that rocks
Speaker 2: the boat a little bit. We feel that, And so
Speaker 2: Bob might be surprised that all of a sudden we're
Speaker 2: saying I'm not actually going to be able to do
Speaker 2: this thing that you're asking me for, or at least
Speaker 2: I'm not going to be able to do it in
Speaker 2: the timeframe that you're asking. So again, this is where
Speaker 2: we might want to consider negotiation. So there's something to
Speaker 2: be said for boundaries, for being able to communicate boundaries.
Speaker 2: But just like I'm asking Bob to be open to
Speaker 2: an alternative, I need to be open to an alternative, right,
Speaker 2: So if I'm asking Bob to be flexible, I've got
Speaker 2: to be willing to be flexible as well. If Bob
Speaker 2: comes back to me and says, twelve o'clock just isn't
Speaker 2: going to cut it because I've got a ten o'clock
Speaker 2: meeting that I need those documents for, then I might
Speaker 2: come back and say, okay, well, I'll do it first
Speaker 2: thing tomorrow morning. But it means this other thing you've
Speaker 2: asked me to do might not get done till the
Speaker 2: end of the day. Is that okay? Right, We've got
Speaker 2: to be able to engage in healthy negotiation, especially in
Speaker 2: the workplace where we're trying to get tasks done.
Speaker 4: I think this is really great because so often when
Speaker 4: we set boundaries that can be a one way.
Speaker 1: This is how it is.
Speaker 4: But I think it's also quite mature to have that
Speaker 4: back and forth and come to a middle ground too. Okay,
Speaker 4: So the second technique, what do we do when we're
Speaker 4: noticing we're burning out?
Speaker 2: We've got to do something, yes, because burnout doesn't just
Speaker 2: go away, right. We might have moments in our working
Speaker 2: life where we're just not feeling it that day and
Speaker 2: that's okay, But burnout isn't one of those things where
Speaker 2: we just kind of wake up and it's a bit better.
Speaker 2: We actually need to do something different. So my first
Speaker 2: tip is, don't keep doing the same thing if it's
Speaker 2: not working for you. I encourage people to take a
Speaker 2: step back, a step away from work. Now. This could
Speaker 2: be literally taking some time off, or it could be
Speaker 2: taking some time over a weekend or on a day
Speaker 2: off to really reflect on where work sits. In the
Speaker 2: bigger picture of your life, and more specifically, not just
Speaker 2: where work sits, but where this specific work that's causing
Speaker 2: you burnout sits in the bigger picture of your life.
Speaker 2: Is it worth the stress? Is it worth waking up
Speaker 2: in the morning feeling exhausted and depleted? Is it worth
Speaker 2: going through the day feeling like you don't want to
Speaker 2: have lunch with your colleagues because everything they say annoys
Speaker 2: you because you're burnt out? Is it worth getting to
Speaker 2: the end of the day and feeling like you don't
Speaker 2: have the energy to go to dinner with your friends right?
Speaker 2: Is what you're doing at work worth it? And I
Speaker 2: think we actually need space and time away from work
Speaker 2: to really reflect and ask ourselves those questions. That could
Speaker 2: be the weekend, it could be days off. If you're
Speaker 2: experiencing signs and symptoms of burnout consistently, I would absolutely
Speaker 2: be recommending you seek out some sort of professional support.
Speaker 2: Chronic stress can absolutely negatively impact our mental health but
Speaker 2: also physically our body. If we have elevated levels of
Speaker 2: cortisol and stress for too long, we are not going
Speaker 2: to feel well right, And so that's where we might
Speaker 2: need to speak with a GP we might need to
Speaker 2: speak with a therapist, a psychologist, someone who's going to
Speaker 2: be able to walk us through how to make some
Speaker 2: changes in our life because the burnout is not sustainable.
Speaker 4: Can you come back from burnout at work? Like, can
Speaker 4: you get back to that place where you're feeling good
Speaker 4: and nourished and ready to go?
Speaker 2: Yes? If it's in the same workplace, though, I'd be
Speaker 2: asking some questions, and what I'd encourage someone to do
Speaker 2: during that time away from work is try and unpack.
Speaker 2: Is it the workplace or is it me? Or is
Speaker 2: it both? Often it's an interaction effect, right, But is
Speaker 2: it that this workplace has such unrealistic demands that no
Speaker 2: matter what I do, I'm going to walk back in
Speaker 2: and probably pretty quickly feel burnt out again? Or am
Speaker 2: I contributing something to this dynamic? Am I doing too
Speaker 2: much people pleasing? Have I got too much work fomo
Speaker 2: going on? Where I say yes to everything and want
Speaker 2: to get involved in every project. Is it that I'm
Speaker 2: choosing to take the laptop home at the end of
Speaker 2: the day and keep checking emails until two o'clock in
Speaker 2: the morning when you know no one's telling me to
Speaker 2: do that, or placing that expectation on me. So how
Speaker 2: much is it the job, how much is it me,
Speaker 2: and how much of the two interacting. If it really
Speaker 2: is the workplace, then I would really question whether you
Speaker 2: could re enter that workplace and not very quickly experienced
Speaker 2: burnout again.
Speaker 4: So with these techniques that you've given us today, a
Speaker 4: sert of communication, the deer technique that takes practice.
Speaker 2: Right, Absolutely, I don't expect that people simply after hearing
Speaker 2: this episode of the podcast will be able to walk
Speaker 2: into Bob's office and just do a deer like like
Speaker 2: it's nothing right. It absolutely takes practice, and actually what
Speaker 2: I recommend to start off this process is try doing
Speaker 2: these in written form first, So if you need to
Speaker 2: have a verbal communication with Bob, write out for yourself
Speaker 2: the D, the E, the A, and the R before
Speaker 2: you go into his office. But you can use this
Speaker 2: via text via emails to communicate with colleagues as well
Speaker 2: if you get an e mail request. It's a really
Speaker 2: good opportunity to practice putting a deer into writing. So
Speaker 2: absolutely start with the situations that feel easier and with
Speaker 2: practice it'll become more natural.
Speaker 4: After the show break, we're going to hear from one
Speaker 4: of you our listeners, who is struggling to set boundaries
Speaker 4: with their work friends. Stay with us, Bibby, bib Bibby,
Speaker 4: I'm having a serious Christy to.
Speaker 2: The BERB having a crisis.
Speaker 4: Okay, guys, you know what time it is. It's our
Speaker 4: segment for our BRB having a crisis where doctor Anastasia
Speaker 4: gives advice to one of you our listeners. Today we're
Speaker 4: hearing from Laura.
Speaker 3: I Grabe drinks with the colleague pretty regularly, and I
Speaker 3: really enjoy hanging out with them at work. They're super
Speaker 3: easy to talk to and really fun to be around,
Speaker 3: but I wouldn't really say that we're close friends outside
Speaker 3: of the office. With my birthday coming up, I'm feeling
Speaker 3: a little awkward about not inviting them. I really want
Speaker 3: to keep some separation between my work life and my
Speaker 3: personal life, but I'm not really too sure how to
Speaker 3: do that without it feeling weird. Is it possible to
Speaker 3: have a good relationship at work without feeling like you
Speaker 3: have to include them in everything?
Speaker 2: And then if they.
Speaker 3: Do feel lift out? How do I explain my boundaries
Speaker 3: without making it feel awkward?
Speaker 2: Or I feel the desire to want to keep everyone
Speaker 2: happy coming in here first, I just want to provide
Speaker 2: some reassurance that it is totally okay to keep some
Speaker 2: separation between work and personal life. As much as you
Speaker 2: enjoy spending time with your colleagues and feel like you
Speaker 2: get along with them, you don't have to bring them
Speaker 2: into that more personal part of your world. Here's something
Speaker 2: I find quite useful to think about when reflecting on
Speaker 2: where different people kind of fit in our life. If
Speaker 2: we think about our social network and friends, different people
Speaker 2: serve different roles in our social sphere. Right, So we
Speaker 2: have the work colleagues, it's great to have a coffee
Speaker 2: or a cup of tea with them, you know, in
Speaker 2: the afternoon at work and chat about what's happening in
Speaker 2: the office. We've got our work friends. We've got our besties,
Speaker 2: the friends who are super close that maybe we've known
Speaker 2: for years that we feel really connected to, that know
Speaker 2: all our secrets and we know we can come to
Speaker 2: them at any time of the day or night and
Speaker 2: tears and they'll be there to comfort us. Right, we've
Speaker 2: got those really close friends. We might have the friends
Speaker 2: who are a fun time. Right, we go out with
Speaker 2: them on a Friday night, have some drinks, whatever, we
Speaker 2: might do, and we go out with them, and they're
Speaker 2: fun to be around. They're not the person we devold
Speaker 2: our secrets too, but they're fun. We might have the
Speaker 2: people who share similar interests with us, you know, the
Speaker 2: people who like to go on hikes, get together and
Speaker 2: go on those hikes. Again, they're not your work colleagues,
Speaker 2: they're not your besties. They're not the Friday night party people.
Speaker 2: They're the hike people. So I guess what I'm trying
Speaker 2: to get at is it's okay to have different friends
Speaker 2: and social connections that fit in different spaces in your life.
Speaker 2: And we don't need to feel like we have to
Speaker 2: bring all those people together or that everyone has to
Speaker 2: fill that same role if they're our friends.
Speaker 4: What about the second half of what Laura was speaking
Speaker 4: to around the other person expressing the disappointment to her,
Speaker 4: Like what should she do there.
Speaker 2: If they come up and say like, oh, I wanted
Speaker 2: to celebrate your birthday with you too. Yeah, again, I
Speaker 2: come back to what we're talking about in the technique,
Speaker 2: the negotiation part, right, So maybe that's an opportunity to
Speaker 2: be like, how about we grab a muffin with a
Speaker 2: candle and in the morning tea break and celebrate my
Speaker 2: birthday together that way, if you want to do something
Speaker 2: you know, or maybe we grab a drink after work
Speaker 2: this afternoon and have a cheers to the birthday. There's
Speaker 2: other ways that you can celebrate with your friends and
Speaker 2: have them involved and invited into your life without necessarily
Speaker 2: having to invite them to your birthday celebration.
Speaker 4: I love that, and please let us know how you go, Laura,
Speaker 4: good luck. Okay, So I think this is going to
Speaker 4: be one of those episodes people come back to because,
Speaker 4: let's be honest, workplace boundaries are so tricky. But you've
Speaker 4: given us a lot of great guidance today. Can you
Speaker 4: give us a recap like a little cheat sheet?
Speaker 2: Sure?
Speaker 4: Can.
Speaker 2: First up, we might have a natural tendency to be
Speaker 2: agreeable in the workplace, but this can be changed. Second,
Speaker 2: assertive communication definitely takes some practice. Third, remember to respect
Speaker 2: both yourself and the other person when being assertive. Fourth,
Speaker 2: use the dear method if you want some extra help
Speaker 2: in knowing what to say, describe, express, assert reinforce. And finally,
Speaker 2: if you find yourself feeling burnt out, take some time
Speaker 2: away from work, seeks professional help and reflect on your
Speaker 2: overall work life balance guys. Next week we are going
Speaker 2: to discuss a topic that I know you've heard of
Speaker 2: because it's one of those words that gets used a
Speaker 2: lot in pop culture, but not necessarily the right way.
Speaker 2: We are going to be talking about narcissists.
Speaker 4: Oh, it's gonna be so good. I'm so excited for it.
Speaker 4: If you have a burning question, there's a few ways
Speaker 4: to get in touch with us.
Speaker 1: Links are in the show notes.
Speaker 2: And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't
Speaker 2: a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present
Speaker 2: here should always take into account your personal history. The
Speaker 2: executive producer of But Are You Happy is Niama Brown.
Speaker 1: Tarlie Blackman is our senior producer.
Speaker 2: Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 1: I'm a Shani Dante and I'm.
Speaker 2: Doctor Anastasia Heronus. The names and stories of people discussed
Speaker 2: have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity. If
Speaker 2: this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you, we
Speaker 2: have links for many more resources in the show notes
Speaker 2: around the topics we discussed today. You can also reach
Speaker 2: out to organizations like Beyond Blue or Lifeline if you're
Speaker 2: wanting more immediate support.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening,