1 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 2: Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and 3 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded on Sorry Helen, stay 4 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 2: late tonight. Yeah, I just realized I'm going to miss 5 00:00:25,240 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 2: them last train, I think. And also it's my fiance's birthday. 6 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 3: Don't worry about me, honestly, I'll come or just sleep 7 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 3: on Excel. 8 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: For Mama Mia. 9 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 4: I'm your host, Ashani Dante. Welcome to But are you happy? 10 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 4: Because self diagnosing in the group chat isn't therapy? 11 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 2: And I'm doctor Anastagia hernis a clinical psychologist passionate about 12 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 2: happiness and mental health. Now have you ever said yes 13 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 2: to your boss when what you really wanted to say 14 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 2: was no? Or when was the last time you agreed 15 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 2: with a colleague even when your gut was telling you 16 00:01:05,679 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 2: that they were wrong. 17 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 4: I feel like if I could raise not only one hand, 18 00:01:08,679 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 4: but all of my limbs right now stress how relatable 19 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 4: this subject is, I would look. 20 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 2: To be fair. My hand is up to We've all 21 00:01:15,679 --> 00:01:17,999 Speaker 2: done this at some point, but a lot of us 22 00:01:18,039 --> 00:01:20,639 Speaker 2: find that it can become quite a habit or a 23 00:01:20,679 --> 00:01:23,839 Speaker 2: coping mechanism. And this is what we call people pleasing. 24 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 4: People pleasing in the workplace. So much to unpack in 25 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:34,759 Speaker 4: this let's do it so a few episodes back. Back 26 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 4: in episode two, we learned how to say no to 27 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:40,759 Speaker 4: the people we love most. But today we're going to 28 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 4: be talking about how to say no in the workplace 29 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 4: because we. 30 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,319 Speaker 1: Know that there is a difference. There isn't there. 31 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 2: Absolutely there's a similarity of both involve us saying no, 32 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 2: using our assertive skills and trying to do so in 33 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 2: a kind and respectful way, But they're really different situations 34 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 2: that we might navigate differently. 35 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 4: So, starting from the top, why do we say yes 36 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 4: so much in the workplace? 37 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 2: There's not one clear answer to this, ye, right, so 38 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 2: there's a few different reasons. Absolutely. So we've talked a 39 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 2: little bit about this before, but we have a natural 40 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 2: desire to please, and we've talked about how from an 41 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 2: evolutionary perspective, this is fundamental for a sense of safety 42 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 2: and protection. We want to be liked, We want to 43 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 2: be part of the pack, and from prehistoric times that 44 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 2: was crucial for our safety to be liked by other 45 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 2: people because we'd then be protected by them. Right. So 46 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 2: this is a very kind of primal biological part of 47 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 2: why we might nowadays say yes in certain situations we 48 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 2: want to be liked. But there's other reasons too. We 49 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 2: might say yes when we actually mean no in the 50 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 2: workplace because we want to avoid conflict. No one likes conflict. 51 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 2: I don't like conflicts. I don't either, so it makes sense. 52 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 2: But it might be that some people are more sort 53 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 2: of conflict avoidant than others. People might be anxious to 54 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 2: say no. We're not sure how other people are going 55 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 2: to respond. We're not sure how our boss is going 56 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 2: to take it if we say no to them, so 57 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 2: that can be a bit anxiety provoked. Sometimes people have 58 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 2: what I would say is a false expectation that people 59 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 2: pleasing is going to actually help them get ahead in 60 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 2: their career. If I say yes to everything, if I'm 61 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,080 Speaker 2: the person that takes on every task and does it 62 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 2: as best as I can and livers everything on time, 63 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 2: then I'm going to get ahead. And to that, I say, maybe, right, 64 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 2: Maybe that's part of it, but probably what you'll find 65 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 2: is that you get more and more work because you're 66 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 2: the person who's reliable and always says yes. So you're 67 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 2: going to be the go to person when someone has 68 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 2: a task that they want someone to do because we 69 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 2: know you'll say yes. 70 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 4: So interesting you're saying that, because I can imagine so 71 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 4: many people tuning in now listening. And also I see 72 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 4: this in myself, especially when we're young and we're at 73 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:00,040 Speaker 4: an early stage in our career, like we do feel 74 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 4: like we do need to say yes. You know, I 75 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 4: hear this term all the time around. You've got to 76 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 4: earn your stripes, you know. So it is I like 77 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 4: that you said maybe because there is both sides to it. 78 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 2: Yes, and there's definitely that part of us needing to 79 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 2: kind of prove ourselves. I want to say that right, 80 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 2: prove ourselves in the workplace, show our boss, our colleagues, 81 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 2: whoever it might be, that we can get the job done, 82 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 2: that we're willing to jump in two feet and get 83 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 2: involved in projects, whatever it might be. But there's a 84 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 2: difference between being willing and people pleasing and not being 85 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 2: able to be assertive and say no when we need to. 86 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 2: And that's a healthy boundary for all of us to 87 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 2: be able to learn. And it kind of relates to 88 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 2: what I would say is a personality trait that some 89 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 2: people have around agreeableness. 90 00:04:48,840 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: Can you tell me more about that. 91 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 2: That sounds interesting, Yes, So I'm gonna we'll do a 92 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 2: little bit of personality one oh one. Right, So there's 93 00:04:55,360 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 2: a model of personality that's got the acronym ocean, so 94 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,839 Speaker 2: it refers to different personality traits that we all have, 95 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 2: and we sit on a spectrum of right. So the 96 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 2: O stands for openness. Now open and are we to 97 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 2: new experiences, to new ways of thinking to other people. 98 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 2: Some of us are very open, some of us are 99 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 2: more closed. So the O stands for open. The C 100 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 2: stands for conscientiousness. Where do I sit on a spectrum 101 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 2: of how conscientious I am in life? The E stands 102 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 2: for extraversion. We've probably many of us have heard of 103 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 2: extraversion and introversion. Again, that's somewhere on a spectrum that 104 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 2: will sit. The A stands for agreeableness. So some of 105 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 2: us are very agreeable. Where yes, people we like to please. 106 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 2: We don't like conflict. On the other end of that 107 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 2: is antagonism. So people who are more hostile, who will 108 00:05:49,840 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 2: often say no, who put their own needs first, And 109 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 2: for anyone listening out there who wants to know more 110 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 2: about that, tune in to our next upcoming episode where 111 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 2: we talk about narcissism because that very much relates to 112 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 2: this flavor of antagonism. And then the final one N 113 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 2: in our model stands for neuroticism. So kind of like 114 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 2: how anxiously pro we are to being sort of on 115 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 2: some sort of spectrum of neuroticism. That's our personality one 116 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 2: oh one. But I guess what we're focusing here is 117 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 2: specifically around that personality trait of agreeableness. So people pleasing 118 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 2: in the workplace is often linked to someone who is 119 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 2: high on the personality trait of agreeableness. 120 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 4: This is I actually never knew about this model, so 121 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 4: I'm learning all of it in real time because as 122 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 4: you're talking, I think about friends in my life or 123 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 4: you know, people that I've coached in the past, and 124 00:06:44,280 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 4: when it comes to say no, Like, you can have 125 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 4: all the tools in the toolkit and have all the 126 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 4: self awareness, but sometimes I do wonder there are some 127 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 4: people that just better at say no. 128 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: So is that a personality thing? Like some people. 129 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 4: Genuinely that's just how they are, Like is that fixed? 130 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 1: Can you change that? 131 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 2: Good question? Yes? 132 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 4: And no? 133 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, So there are parts of our personality that 134 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 2: are very integral to who we are and are not 135 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 2: easy to change. Right, They're pretty foundational and fundamental. If 136 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 2: we think about this concept of temperament, and when we 137 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 2: think about young children, some young kids are just born 138 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 2: more anxious than other kids. We see this even from 139 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 2: the zero to kind of two year old period in 140 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 2: a young child's life. Babies and kids are born with 141 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 2: different temperaments. So there is a part of it that 142 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 2: really is quite biological and can be hard to change. 143 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 2: But it's not to say that we can't learn skills 144 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 2: to be able to navigate that. If I am someone 145 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 2: who's more agreeable or someone who's more neurotic, or whatever 146 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 2: it might be, I can learn skills to manage the 147 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 2: part of me that might be that default that doesn't 148 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 2: always help me in a situation. 149 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: This is really good to know. 150 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 4: So right now, so we've kind of unpacked a lot 151 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 4: of reasons why we say yes in the workplace. Something 152 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 4: I'm keen to hear more about is like, what are 153 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 4: the consequences? Like what happens if we keep saying yes 154 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 4: in the workplace? 155 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 2: We get more work? But what's the consequence of that? Yeah, 156 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 2: So I think this is where we get into the 157 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 2: topic of burnout, right, And I think it's a really 158 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 2: important one for us to talk about because we are 159 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 2: seeing increasing rates of burnout in the workplace, and we're 160 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 2: actually seeing a lot of young people report that they're 161 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 2: experiencing burnout early on in their careers. And so I 162 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 2: do think about how much this might be linked to 163 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 2: being early in your career wanting to say yes, maybe 164 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 2: saying yes a little bit too much, but then also 165 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 2: getting burnt out really quickly and. 166 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,040 Speaker 4: It's really hard. And I think this kind of weaves 167 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 4: back into some of the things. Of the reasons why 168 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 4: we say yes all the time is because we do 169 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 4: create all these stories. And I had been like, Okay, 170 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 4: but if I say no, I'm going to miss this opportunity, 171 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 4: someone else is going to take it. And then we 172 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 4: create these compelling narratives that keeps us stuck insane. 173 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, the work fomo'. That's another reason why we might. 174 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: Say, do you do you feel the work? Fomo? 175 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 2: I am so guilty of the world. Oh, if there's 176 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 2: an exciting project, or like I do a lot of 177 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 2: research with university, right, someone's doing a project that sounds 178 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 2: interesting to me, I'm like, oh, do I have time 179 00:09:35,680 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 2: to take this on. I really want to get involved, 180 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 2: and it's the phomo. I'm like, that sounds fun, that 181 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 2: sounds exciting, it sounds interesting. I want to jump in, 182 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 2: and I'll be really sad if I don't. But you've learned? 183 00:09:47,560 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 4: Do you have you learnt the balance now of like 184 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 4: discerning or is that just a. 185 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: Constant journey for you? 186 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 2: It's an ongoing journey. Yeah. 187 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all about being authentic here. 188 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 4: You know, we give all the tools and the tricks 189 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 4: of the trade, but we're still embodying it. So okay, 190 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 4: So coming back to it, you did mention burnout, so 191 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 4: and I think it is very relatable and it's really 192 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 4: you spoke to the fact around a lot of young 193 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:13,439 Speaker 4: people burning out. 194 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: What is burnout like? Unpack it for us? 195 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 2: So, burnout is essentially both a physical and psychological state 196 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 2: that we can enter where we experience extreme exhaustion. And 197 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 2: this is often related to the workplace, but I also 198 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 2: want to say it doesn't have to be work specific, right, 199 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 2: We can burn out in different ways in any kind 200 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 2: of role where we feel like we've got some sort 201 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 2: of pressure or expectation on us, or we're really devoting 202 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 2: ourselves to it. So parents can experience parental burnout. If 203 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 2: we're caring for a sick or an elderly family member, 204 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 2: we can experience care a burnout. If I'm someone who 205 00:10:56,560 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 2: advocates for a cause I'm thinking of, you know, the 206 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 2: grace Tames of the world who are there like fighting 207 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 2: the good fight on the front line, but consistently having 208 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 2: to advocate. Those people can burn out as well. So 209 00:11:08,560 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 2: burnout is not just works specific. It's this sort of 210 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 2: fatigue and intense exhaustion that we can feel from stress 211 00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 2: and repeated stress. 212 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: So what does that actually look like? 213 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 2: Signs and symptoms to look out for. Okay, So three 214 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 2: key categories of symptoms. Okay, So the first one is 215 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 2: around energy, So energy depletion, exhaustion of energy. I feel 216 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 2: like when I get up in the morning, even if 217 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 2: I've had the best night sleep, I don't have energy 218 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 2: to get up and go and do the thing I 219 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 2: need to do, go to work, do the tasks I 220 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:46,439 Speaker 2: need to do. So the first one's about this sort 221 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 2: of depletion of energy. The second one is around mentality 222 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 2: and kind of our outlook towards our work. So we 223 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 2: might become really quite cynical. We might become really quite 224 00:12:01,560 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 2: detached from our work. We might be really sort of apathetic. 225 00:12:04,680 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 2: We might become really resentful to the people in the office. 226 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 2: We go into the office and people are having their 227 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 2: you know, morning cup of coffee and having a laugh, 228 00:12:12,560 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 2: and we're like, what are they laughing about? You know, 229 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 2: and it's probably got nothing to do with the fact 230 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 2: that they're laughing, But we're burnt out, so we become 231 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:23,959 Speaker 2: quite cynical and almost resentful towards other people. And then 232 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 2: the last sort of category of symptoms is around our productivity, 233 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 2: but also our feeling of our sense of accomplishment. So 234 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 2: it might be that we are actually doing less than 235 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 2: we usually do or what we need to do, but 236 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 2: we also don't feel that sense of satisfaction and accomplishment 237 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 2: when we do achieve tasks at work. 238 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 4: As you're talking about the signs and symptoms, I'm just 239 00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 4: reflecting and being like, wow, okay, yeah, I was burnt 240 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 4: out then. So it is a lot of bringing self 241 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 4: awareness to all of this, you know, balancing all with kindness. 242 00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 4: So I'm really keen to hear because as you're talking 243 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 4: about the signs and symptoms, one of them is around 244 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 4: like exhaustion, and you know, essentially not. 245 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: Feeling it in the job. 246 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 4: So how can you tell the difference between you being 247 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 4: burnt out versus I'm actually just lacking passion and purpose 248 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 4: in this job. 249 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 2: We certainly don't have to love our job, and we 250 00:13:17,560 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 2: certainly don't have to feel like it's our identity or 251 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 2: it's our bigger purpose in life. Right, So it's not 252 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 2: to say that we need to turn up to work 253 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 2: enthusiastic and super happy to be there. And I couldn't 254 00:13:29,560 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 2: think of anywhere I would rather be than at worked today, 255 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 2: even though the sun shining and a beach would be nice. Right, 256 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 2: So that's not necessarily what we're aiming for. But we 257 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 2: don't want to feel like we are exhausted to the 258 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 2: point where everything feels like a struggle at work. I 259 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 2: open my emails and I see ten emails sitting there, 260 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 2: and I go, good lord, I couldn't think of anything worse. 261 00:13:49,560 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 2: Right now. We don't want that experience. We don't want 262 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 2: an experience of resentment and cynicism, right. And this is 263 00:13:57,960 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 2: a really big one. I think this is actually the 264 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 2: biggest one to spot internally. If people are wanting to 265 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 2: do some self reflection, there's a difference between turning up 266 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 2: to work and being like, it's a job. That's fine, 267 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 2: it pays the bills. That's that's what I'm here for. Right. 268 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 2: That's a kind of like neutral emotional attachment to my work. 269 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 2: There's a big difference between feeling like, you know, what, 270 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 2: job's a job, it pays the bills. I rock up, 271 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 2: I do my thing, I go home. It is what 272 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 2: it is, right. That's quite a neutral attachment to work. 273 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 2: I'm kind of neither here nor there about it. That's 274 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 2: very different to feeling cynical and resentful to my work 275 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 2: and to the workplace and to the people that I 276 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 2: work with as well. So that's a really big indicator 277 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 2: that if you're not burnt out, you might be somewhere 278 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 2: on a pathway to burn out. 279 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 4: Yeah. And I think it's really interesting too because as 280 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 4: you're speaking to it, it's also good for all of 281 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 4: us if you are in a workplace to be mindful 282 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 4: as well, Like, you know, we don't actually know what's 283 00:14:57,760 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 4: going on. For other people, they might be a little 284 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 4: bit more you know, off the cuff with comments and 285 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 4: things like that. And I think it's important to bring 286 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 4: a bit more empathy in the workplace too, So I 287 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 4: guess another question I have is what happens if people 288 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 4: pleasing is rewarded in the workplace? 289 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 2: So the question I would ask is how is it 290 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 2: being rewarded? Right? So when you say it's being rewarded, 291 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 2: my immediate thought is what's reward Right? Is reward that 292 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 2: this person is managing to make leaps and bounds in 293 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 2: their career because of their people pleasing, or is reward 294 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 2: like they're getting more attention from the boss. But you know, 295 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 2: what's their goal? Right? Is their goal to sort of 296 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 2: like move up the ranks in the company, or is 297 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 2: their goal to sort of get enough experience to move 298 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 2: to another workplace? What's the goal for that person and 299 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 2: is their behavior helping them achieve that? Because I think 300 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 2: that's really different to do. I just feel like I'm 301 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 2: getting recognition, which feels good, but practically for the purposes 302 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 2: of my career, maybe doesn't achieve a whole lot, Like, yeah, 303 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 2: it's useful, but maybe it's not getting me the pay rise, 304 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 2: or maybe it's not getting me that promotion that I'm seeking. 305 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 2: So I question this, this kind of notion of people 306 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 2: pleasing being rewarded because I would want to know. 307 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 4: How, Yeah, because it's interesting too, and something I've observed 308 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 4: with working across generations. It's kind of like I find 309 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 4: with the gen X and like younger generations, there's different 310 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 4: kind of ways of working. I feel like I find 311 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 4: with young people that I've worked with, they're probably better 312 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 4: it's sending boundaries, whereas I find like a lot of 313 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 4: gen X is they look at that and kind of 314 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 4: question it. And it's not in like a one's right 315 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 4: or wrong. It's just we've grown up, you know, working differently. 316 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 2: Yes, And I think we can sometimes overcorrect as well, right, 317 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 2: Like we see this happen in society all the time. 318 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 2: And I would be cautious and curiously asking people who 319 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 2: are early in their careers to yes, set the boundaries. 320 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 2: No way, and you're going to say no to a 321 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 2: boss when you're being asked to do something. And at 322 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 2: the same time, there are probably gonna be situations where 323 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 2: quote unquote people pleasing or being agreeable or stepping into 324 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 2: something with a willingness to maybe go a little bit 325 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 2: above and beyond what we normally would is actually going 326 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 2: to be a good thing. And to do that every 327 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 2: so often isn't bad. We're not being taken advantage of 328 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 2: where not as long as we don't feel like we 329 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:38,919 Speaker 2: have to do it. If we can do it with willingness, 330 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 2: and we can do it in moderation, then great. 331 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,640 Speaker 4: And it is it's kind of like, yes, still work 332 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 4: hard because sometimes I think we can weaponize the whole 333 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 4: boundary thing and being like, oh, I don't know, but 334 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 4: it's important to work hard and build that grit and 335 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 4: muscle and something. You know, I'm really grateful of you know, 336 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 4: I'm still young, but I'm grateful I've worked really hard in. 337 00:17:58,680 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 1: The first ten years. 338 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 4: But something I'm also keen to unpack too, Like, especially 339 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 4: people who are in the workplace and they've got employees 340 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 4: and maybe younger or may have some people please behave 341 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 4: What would you say to them to make sure they're 342 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 4: not taking advantage of people pleases in the workplace? 343 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 2: Are we the problem is what you're asking? Am I 344 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,120 Speaker 2: the problems? Oh? 345 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:23,400 Speaker 4: God? 346 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 2: Well, So this is the first thing I'm going to say, 347 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 2: because I think this is a complex question that calls 348 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 2: for self reflection. The boundaries that we might be willing 349 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 2: to set for ourselves are not what we should expect 350 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 2: other people to set for themselves. So I am someone 351 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 2: you know, I'm going to put my hand up and 352 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 2: admit I will sometimes work in the evening. You know, 353 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 2: I've got a business of what different things I do. 354 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 2: There are evenings that I will work, right, I'm okay 355 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 2: with that. Like I love my job, I love what 356 00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 2: I do. I'm okay with working some longer hours. Sometimes 357 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 2: that doesn't mean that I can expect that from my 358 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 2: employees or from other people that work with me. So 359 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 2: just because a boundary is okay for me, doesn't mean 360 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 2: it's okay for someone else. So I think it's always 361 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 2: really important to remember that everyone's going to have a 362 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 2: different sense of what works for them and how it 363 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 2: works for them, And we don't want to ever be 364 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,959 Speaker 2: in a situation where we're imposing our way of working 365 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 2: onto someone else. 366 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,880 Speaker 4: So it's really interesting because when I'm hearing is that 367 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 4: so often I feel like burnout is rewarded, you know, 368 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,360 Speaker 4: in the hustle culture, you know, work the longest hours. 369 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 4: But actually what I'm hearing is that it's doing a 370 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 4: complete opposite and no one's giving you that reward when 371 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,880 Speaker 4: you're lying down in bed completely burnt out. Exactly right, 372 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 4: What are the pros of agreeableness. 373 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 2: I love this question because agreeable people are lovely. Yes, 374 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 2: they're the light. They're empathetic, they're kind, they're great to 375 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 2: work with, great at collaboration. Right, They're just really lovely 376 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 2: people who are great at building relationships. So if you're 377 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 2: working with someone who's agreeable, and you're working in an 378 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:16,640 Speaker 2: industry or a sector where building relationships is really important, 379 00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 2: your agreeable colleagues are going to do really well at 380 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 2: that and be a really great asset in the workplace. 381 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: So it's not all bad. 382 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 2: It's not all bad. 383 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: There's good things to it. 384 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 4: After this shortbreak, doctor Anastasia is going to teach us 385 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 4: a method to help us stop our people pleasing in 386 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 4: its tracks. Stay with us, Okay, Atastasia, I'm going to 387 00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 4: cheat a little and I'm going to ask you for 388 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 4: two techniques today. The first one is how do we 389 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 4: say no in the workplace that doesn't, you know, jeopardize 390 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 4: our career? And the second one is what do you 391 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 4: do if you're noticing signs of burnout. Let's start with 392 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 4: the first one. How do we say no? 393 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 2: How do we say no? Yep, beyond just saying no. 394 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: Yes, we need more, we need more guidance. 395 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,640 Speaker 2: So what I'm going to do is ground this technique 396 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 2: in the concept of assertive now, right, So we hear 397 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 2: assertiveness talked about, but what is assertive communication? Assertiveness is 398 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 2: fundamentally all about respect. Okay. So if we think about 399 00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 2: communication styles as existing on some sort of spectrum. Down 400 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 2: one end of the spectrum, we have passive communication, so 401 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 2: this is where where people pleases, we say yes when 402 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 2: we may know. We might be quite timid in our approach. 403 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:41,959 Speaker 2: Our tone of voice might be quite soft and a 404 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 2: bit apologetic. So this is our more passive style of communication. 405 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 2: On the other end of the spectrum, we have aggressive communication. 406 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 2: So this is very strong, very loud, maybe a bit 407 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 2: in someone's personal space, quite direct. You're not using our 408 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 2: pleas and thank yous, you know, this sort of aggressive 409 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 2: style of communicating with others. And in the middle we 410 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 2: have assertiveness. So where does respect come into this. If 411 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,920 Speaker 2: we're passive in our communication style, the person we don't 412 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 2: respect is ourselves. If we're aggressive in our communication style, 413 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 2: the person we're not respecting is whoever we're talking to. 414 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 2: Assertive communication is the ability to speak with someone where 415 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 2: we respect them and we respect ourselves. So if we 416 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 2: break down what does assertive communication look sound, feel like. 417 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 2: It's direct, it's clear, we don't have too many arms 418 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 2: and h's. We use eye statements to communicate I think this, 419 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 2: I feel this, not you did this. You are this. 420 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 2: Our body language where confidence, where our shoulders are rolled back, 421 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 2: we stand up tall. We have a kind but confident 422 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 2: tone of voice. We feel comfortable making eye contact, but 423 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 2: we're not staring someone down right, So when we think 424 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 2: about assertive communication, it's important to think about how we 425 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 2: hold that assertiveness in our body, in our face, in 426 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 2: terms of our facial expressions, and in our tone of voice. 427 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 4: This is really good because it's nice to get these 428 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 4: dot points conceptually, and I'm wondering if there's also a 429 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 4: way to further break it down, like an example of 430 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 4: what we actually say next time in the workplace. 431 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 2: Yes, so I'm going to teach all our listeners a 432 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 2: four step method of what to say when you're trying 433 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 2: to be assertive in an interaction. Now, this is great 434 00:23:50,120 --> 00:23:52,880 Speaker 2: for the workplace, it can translate outside of the workplace 435 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 2: as well, So don't feel like it's just for the workplace. 436 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 2: But we want to use this method when we're trying 437 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 2: to achieve some sort of objective. We have a goal 438 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,919 Speaker 2: of what we're trying to communicate. We're not focused on 439 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 2: developing a deep and meaningful relationship with this person. We're 440 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 2: trying to communicate something that's important to us. So we 441 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:19,639 Speaker 2: use the acronym D, D, EA, R. So I'm going 442 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 2: to tell you what each of those stands for. So 443 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 2: D stands for describe. Your first sentence is going to 444 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 2: be describing the situation. So let me come up with 445 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 2: an example. Your boss asks you to do this extra work, 446 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 2: but it's four forty five and you're meant to be 447 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 2: clocking off in in fifteen minutes. Maybe not too dissimilar 448 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 2: to what the person at the start of the episode 449 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 2: was talking about working till eleven PM at night. Right, okay, 450 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 2: So D stands for describe, describe the situation. Hi Bob, 451 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 2: you've asked me as them I could think of in 452 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 2: the moment. Hi Bob, you've asked me to do this 453 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 2: work and get these documents completed by first thing tomorrow morning. 454 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:12,159 Speaker 2: But it's now four thirty. E for express, This is 455 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 2: where we use our eye statements to say what we think, 456 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 2: what we feel, what our opinion is. I think it's 457 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:23,919 Speaker 2: gonna be a bit of a push for me to 458 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 2: get these done by first thing tomorrow morning. A is assert. 459 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 2: We assert what we want or what we would like. 460 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,360 Speaker 2: I would really love it if you could just give 461 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 2: me an extra, say half a day, and maybe I 462 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:45,120 Speaker 2: could get these to you by noon tomorrow. R stands 463 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 2: for reinforce. We want to tell that person why they 464 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 2: should get on board with our request, why it's going 465 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 2: to be good for them and for us. If I 466 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,199 Speaker 2: could get these to you by noon, it would take 467 00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:58,679 Speaker 2: a lot of the pressure off me, and I think 468 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,719 Speaker 2: I'd be able to do a better quality job and 469 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 2: not rush through the process. So what that sounds like 470 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 2: overall would be something like this, Hi, Bob, I know 471 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:10,400 Speaker 2: you've given me these documents and you said you want 472 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 2: them by first thing tomorrow. I think that's going to 473 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 2: be a bit of a stretch for me, and I'm 474 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 2: not going to get them in time. What I would 475 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 2: like instead is maybe if I could get these to 476 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 2: you by twelve pm mid day tomorrow, that would be 477 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 2: really helpful for me. It takes some of the pressure off, 478 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 2: and I actually think I'd be able to do a 479 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 2: much better job of the documents So. 480 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 4: It's really interesting when you were saying that, is that 481 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 4: you didn't say sorry at all. 482 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 2: I didn't say sorry. No, I didn't apologize. 483 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 4: Yeah. 484 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: See, this is what's going to be. 485 00:26:39,120 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 4: I find quite challenging because I feel like for myself, 486 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 4: but I can speak like I've witnessed in you so 487 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 4: many women, it's so easy to keep saying sorry, especially 488 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 4: saying sorry to request from someone that is of a 489 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 4: higher power than you in the workplace. So it sounds 490 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,400 Speaker 4: like that can be challenging, like it's a muscle, right, 491 00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 4: Like this might take time. 492 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, and look, I'm not anti as sorry, right, So 493 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 2: if someone wanted to do that dear conversation and say, look, 494 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 2: I'm really sorry, but I don't think I'm going to 495 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,640 Speaker 2: get this done by the end of the day, I wouldn't. 496 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 2: I wouldn't say, like, how dare you say sorry? You 497 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 2: have nothing to apologize for? Maybe you have nothing to 498 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 2: apologize for. But I think we can use sorry in 499 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 2: a way that is polite and sort of you know, 500 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 2: demonstrates respect for one another. What we don't want to 501 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 2: do is over apologize, right. We don't want to be 502 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 2: so guilt written and so apologetic that every sentence has 503 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 2: a sorry in it. We don't want to do that. 504 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 2: But if we drop a sorry in there, I don't 505 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 2: think that's the end of the world either. The other 506 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 2: thing we don't want to do, which you might notice 507 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 2: when I did the dear, is keep it short and simple. 508 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 2: We don't need to over explain ourselves. I'm not going 509 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 2: to go to Bob and be like, but I have 510 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,360 Speaker 2: this task, and I have this task, and then I'll 511 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 2: have to get in really early tomorrow morning if I 512 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 2: have to finish it by ah, Bob, don't care. Bob's busy. 513 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,679 Speaker 2: It got shit to do, right, Just like get to 514 00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 2: the point, keep it simple. I often say max one 515 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:06,640 Speaker 2: sentence per letter, describe, express, assert, reinforce, and only use 516 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:08,880 Speaker 2: one simple sentence for each of those. 517 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 4: So then what happened? So we've got the dear technique. 518 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 4: Now we're going to start using it. But what's going 519 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 4: to happen now, especially with you've been in the workplace, 520 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,160 Speaker 4: then you've always said yes. So now you're setting your boundaries. 521 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 4: You know, you know your worth and Bob's kind of geting. 522 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:26,959 Speaker 1: Triggered by that. 523 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 4: You know, how do you reset that dynamic? Because it 524 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 4: is going to bring up stuff. 525 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 2: Right, Yes, change rocks the boat, right, And if we're 526 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 2: in any kind of dynamic with someone and one person 527 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 2: changes from how they've been consistently showing up, that rocks 528 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 2: the boat a little bit. We feel that, And so 529 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 2: Bob might be surprised that all of a sudden we're 530 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 2: saying I'm not actually going to be able to do 531 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 2: this thing that you're asking me for, or at least 532 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 2: I'm not going to be able to do it in 533 00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 2: the timeframe that you're asking. So again, this is where 534 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 2: we might want to consider negotiation. So there's something to 535 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 2: be said for boundaries, for being able to communicate boundaries. 536 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 2: But just like I'm asking Bob to be open to 537 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 2: an alternative, I need to be open to an alternative, right, 538 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 2: So if I'm asking Bob to be flexible, I've got 539 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 2: to be willing to be flexible as well. If Bob 540 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 2: comes back to me and says, twelve o'clock just isn't 541 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 2: going to cut it because I've got a ten o'clock 542 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 2: meeting that I need those documents for, then I might 543 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 2: come back and say, okay, well, I'll do it first 544 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 2: thing tomorrow morning. But it means this other thing you've 545 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 2: asked me to do might not get done till the 546 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 2: end of the day. Is that okay? Right, We've got 547 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 2: to be able to engage in healthy negotiation, especially in 548 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 2: the workplace where we're trying to get tasks done. 549 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 4: I think this is really great because so often when 550 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 4: we set boundaries that can be a one way. 551 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: This is how it is. 552 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,479 Speaker 4: But I think it's also quite mature to have that 553 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 4: back and forth and come to a middle ground too. Okay, 554 00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 4: So the second technique, what do we do when we're 555 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 4: noticing we're burning out? 556 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 2: We've got to do something, yes, because burnout doesn't just 557 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 2: go away, right. We might have moments in our working 558 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 2: life where we're just not feeling it that day and 559 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 2: that's okay, But burnout isn't one of those things where 560 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 2: we just kind of wake up and it's a bit better. 561 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 2: We actually need to do something different. So my first 562 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 2: tip is, don't keep doing the same thing if it's 563 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 2: not working for you. I encourage people to take a 564 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 2: step back, a step away from work. Now. This could 565 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 2: be literally taking some time off, or it could be 566 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 2: taking some time over a weekend or on a day 567 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 2: off to really reflect on where work sits. In the 568 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 2: bigger picture of your life, and more specifically, not just 569 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 2: where work sits, but where this specific work that's causing 570 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 2: you burnout sits in the bigger picture of your life. 571 00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 2: Is it worth the stress? Is it worth waking up 572 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 2: in the morning feeling exhausted and depleted? Is it worth 573 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 2: going through the day feeling like you don't want to 574 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 2: have lunch with your colleagues because everything they say annoys 575 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 2: you because you're burnt out? Is it worth getting to 576 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 2: the end of the day and feeling like you don't 577 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 2: have the energy to go to dinner with your friends right? 578 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 2: Is what you're doing at work worth it? And I 579 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 2: think we actually need space and time away from work 580 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 2: to really reflect and ask ourselves those questions. That could 581 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 2: be the weekend, it could be days off. If you're 582 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 2: experiencing signs and symptoms of burnout consistently, I would absolutely 583 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 2: be recommending you seek out some sort of professional support. 584 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 2: Chronic stress can absolutely negatively impact our mental health but 585 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 2: also physically our body. If we have elevated levels of 586 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 2: cortisol and stress for too long, we are not going 587 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 2: to feel well right, And so that's where we might 588 00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 2: need to speak with a GP we might need to 589 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 2: speak with a therapist, a psychologist, someone who's going to 590 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 2: be able to walk us through how to make some 591 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 2: changes in our life because the burnout is not sustainable. 592 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 4: Can you come back from burnout at work? Like, can 593 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 4: you get back to that place where you're feeling good 594 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 4: and nourished and ready to go? 595 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 2: Yes? If it's in the same workplace, though, I'd be 596 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 2: asking some questions, and what I'd encourage someone to do 597 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 2: during that time away from work is try and unpack. 598 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 2: Is it the workplace or is it me? Or is 599 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 2: it both? Often it's an interaction effect, right, But is 600 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 2: it that this workplace has such unrealistic demands that no 601 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 2: matter what I do, I'm going to walk back in 602 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 2: and probably pretty quickly feel burnt out again? Or am 603 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 2: I contributing something to this dynamic? Am I doing too 604 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 2: much people pleasing? Have I got too much work fomo 605 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 2: going on? Where I say yes to everything and want 606 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 2: to get involved in every project. Is it that I'm 607 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 2: choosing to take the laptop home at the end of 608 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 2: the day and keep checking emails until two o'clock in 609 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 2: the morning when you know no one's telling me to 610 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 2: do that, or placing that expectation on me. So how 611 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 2: much is it the job, how much is it me, 612 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 2: and how much of the two interacting. If it really 613 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 2: is the workplace, then I would really question whether you 614 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 2: could re enter that workplace and not very quickly experienced 615 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 2: burnout again. 616 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 4: So with these techniques that you've given us today, a 617 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 4: sert of communication, the deer technique that takes practice. 618 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 2: Right, Absolutely, I don't expect that people simply after hearing 619 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 2: this episode of the podcast will be able to walk 620 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 2: into Bob's office and just do a deer like like 621 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 2: it's nothing right. It absolutely takes practice, and actually what 622 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 2: I recommend to start off this process is try doing 623 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 2: these in written form first, So if you need to 624 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 2: have a verbal communication with Bob, write out for yourself 625 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 2: the D, the E, the A, and the R before 626 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 2: you go into his office. But you can use this 627 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,439 Speaker 2: via text via emails to communicate with colleagues as well 628 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,240 Speaker 2: if you get an e mail request. It's a really 629 00:34:12,279 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 2: good opportunity to practice putting a deer into writing. So 630 00:34:16,799 --> 00:34:20,359 Speaker 2: absolutely start with the situations that feel easier and with 631 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 2: practice it'll become more natural. 632 00:34:24,319 --> 00:34:26,479 Speaker 4: After the show break, we're going to hear from one 633 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 4: of you our listeners, who is struggling to set boundaries 634 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 4: with their work friends. Stay with us, Bibby, bib Bibby, 635 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 4: I'm having a serious Christy to. 636 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,639 Speaker 2: The BERB having a crisis. 637 00:34:41,279 --> 00:34:43,919 Speaker 4: Okay, guys, you know what time it is. It's our 638 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 4: segment for our BRB having a crisis where doctor Anastasia 639 00:34:48,279 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 4: gives advice to one of you our listeners. Today we're 640 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 4: hearing from Laura. 641 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 3: I Grabe drinks with the colleague pretty regularly, and I 642 00:34:56,799 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 3: really enjoy hanging out with them at work. They're super 643 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:01,839 Speaker 3: easy to talk to and really fun to be around, 644 00:35:01,879 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 3: but I wouldn't really say that we're close friends outside 645 00:35:04,799 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 3: of the office. With my birthday coming up, I'm feeling 646 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 3: a little awkward about not inviting them. I really want 647 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,839 Speaker 3: to keep some separation between my work life and my 648 00:35:13,919 --> 00:35:16,359 Speaker 3: personal life, but I'm not really too sure how to 649 00:35:16,359 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 3: do that without it feeling weird. Is it possible to 650 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 3: have a good relationship at work without feeling like you 651 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:24,879 Speaker 3: have to include them in everything? 652 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:26,400 Speaker 2: And then if they. 653 00:35:26,279 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 3: Do feel lift out? How do I explain my boundaries 654 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 3: without making it feel awkward? 655 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:36,400 Speaker 2: Or I feel the desire to want to keep everyone 656 00:35:36,479 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 2: happy coming in here first, I just want to provide 657 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,559 Speaker 2: some reassurance that it is totally okay to keep some 658 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 2: separation between work and personal life. As much as you 659 00:35:47,799 --> 00:35:49,959 Speaker 2: enjoy spending time with your colleagues and feel like you 660 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,359 Speaker 2: get along with them, you don't have to bring them 661 00:35:52,479 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 2: into that more personal part of your world. Here's something 662 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 2: I find quite useful to think about when reflecting on 663 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,719 Speaker 2: where different people kind of fit in our life. If 664 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,239 Speaker 2: we think about our social network and friends, different people 665 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,719 Speaker 2: serve different roles in our social sphere. Right, So we 666 00:36:13,759 --> 00:36:16,879 Speaker 2: have the work colleagues, it's great to have a coffee 667 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:18,919 Speaker 2: or a cup of tea with them, you know, in 668 00:36:18,959 --> 00:36:21,319 Speaker 2: the afternoon at work and chat about what's happening in 669 00:36:21,359 --> 00:36:25,479 Speaker 2: the office. We've got our work friends. We've got our besties, 670 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:27,959 Speaker 2: the friends who are super close that maybe we've known 671 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 2: for years that we feel really connected to, that know 672 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,239 Speaker 2: all our secrets and we know we can come to 673 00:36:32,279 --> 00:36:34,439 Speaker 2: them at any time of the day or night and 674 00:36:34,479 --> 00:36:36,599 Speaker 2: tears and they'll be there to comfort us. Right, we've 675 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 2: got those really close friends. We might have the friends 676 00:36:40,319 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 2: who are a fun time. Right, we go out with 677 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,879 Speaker 2: them on a Friday night, have some drinks, whatever, we 678 00:36:45,959 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 2: might do, and we go out with them, and they're 679 00:36:47,919 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 2: fun to be around. They're not the person we devold 680 00:36:50,799 --> 00:36:54,039 Speaker 2: our secrets too, but they're fun. We might have the 681 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 2: people who share similar interests with us, you know, the 682 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 2: people who like to go on hikes, get together and 683 00:37:00,359 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 2: go on those hikes. Again, they're not your work colleagues, 684 00:37:02,799 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 2: they're not your besties. They're not the Friday night party people. 685 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,119 Speaker 2: They're the hike people. So I guess what I'm trying 686 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 2: to get at is it's okay to have different friends 687 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,839 Speaker 2: and social connections that fit in different spaces in your life. 688 00:37:15,879 --> 00:37:18,079 Speaker 2: And we don't need to feel like we have to 689 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 2: bring all those people together or that everyone has to 690 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,399 Speaker 2: fill that same role if they're our friends. 691 00:37:24,919 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 4: What about the second half of what Laura was speaking 692 00:37:27,319 --> 00:37:31,239 Speaker 4: to around the other person expressing the disappointment to her, 693 00:37:31,439 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 4: Like what should she do there. 694 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 2: If they come up and say like, oh, I wanted 695 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 2: to celebrate your birthday with you too. Yeah, again, I 696 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 2: come back to what we're talking about in the technique, 697 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 2: the negotiation part, right, So maybe that's an opportunity to 698 00:37:44,839 --> 00:37:48,319 Speaker 2: be like, how about we grab a muffin with a 699 00:37:48,399 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 2: candle and in the morning tea break and celebrate my 700 00:37:51,759 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 2: birthday together that way, if you want to do something 701 00:37:53,879 --> 00:37:55,919 Speaker 2: you know, or maybe we grab a drink after work 702 00:37:55,959 --> 00:37:58,479 Speaker 2: this afternoon and have a cheers to the birthday. There's 703 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:00,999 Speaker 2: other ways that you can celebrate with your friends and 704 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:05,239 Speaker 2: have them involved and invited into your life without necessarily 705 00:38:05,279 --> 00:38:07,959 Speaker 2: having to invite them to your birthday celebration. 706 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 4: I love that, and please let us know how you go, Laura, 707 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 4: good luck. Okay, So I think this is going to 708 00:38:21,279 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 4: be one of those episodes people come back to because, 709 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:28,679 Speaker 4: let's be honest, workplace boundaries are so tricky. But you've 710 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 4: given us a lot of great guidance today. Can you 711 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 4: give us a recap like a little cheat sheet? 712 00:38:33,919 --> 00:38:34,159 Speaker 2: Sure? 713 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:34,479 Speaker 4: Can. 714 00:38:34,879 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 2: First up, we might have a natural tendency to be 715 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:43,759 Speaker 2: agreeable in the workplace, but this can be changed. Second, 716 00:38:43,879 --> 00:38:50,279 Speaker 2: assertive communication definitely takes some practice. Third, remember to respect 717 00:38:50,319 --> 00:38:54,799 Speaker 2: both yourself and the other person when being assertive. Fourth, 718 00:38:55,319 --> 00:38:58,159 Speaker 2: use the dear method if you want some extra help 719 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 2: in knowing what to say, describe, express, assert reinforce. And finally, 720 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 2: if you find yourself feeling burnt out, take some time 721 00:39:08,399 --> 00:39:12,439 Speaker 2: away from work, seeks professional help and reflect on your 722 00:39:12,479 --> 00:39:17,279 Speaker 2: overall work life balance guys. Next week we are going 723 00:39:17,319 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 2: to discuss a topic that I know you've heard of 724 00:39:20,919 --> 00:39:23,399 Speaker 2: because it's one of those words that gets used a 725 00:39:23,439 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 2: lot in pop culture, but not necessarily the right way. 726 00:39:26,919 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 2: We are going to be talking about narcissists. 727 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,719 Speaker 4: Oh, it's gonna be so good. I'm so excited for it. 728 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,560 Speaker 4: If you have a burning question, there's a few ways 729 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:37,559 Speaker 4: to get in touch with us. 730 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 1: Links are in the show notes. 731 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,479 Speaker 2: And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't 732 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:46,360 Speaker 2: a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present 733 00:39:46,439 --> 00:39:50,160 Speaker 2: here should always take into account your personal history. The 734 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 2: executive producer of But Are You Happy is Niama Brown. 735 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:56,719 Speaker 1: Tarlie Blackman is our senior producer. 736 00:39:57,319 --> 00:39:59,840 Speaker 2: Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown. 737 00:40:00,399 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 1: I'm a Shani Dante and I'm. 738 00:40:02,879 --> 00:40:06,919 Speaker 2: Doctor Anastasia Heronus. The names and stories of people discussed 739 00:40:06,959 --> 00:40:10,559 Speaker 2: have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity. If 740 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,719 Speaker 2: this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you, we 741 00:40:13,839 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 2: have links for many more resources in the show notes 742 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:20,239 Speaker 2: around the topics we discussed today. You can also reach 743 00:40:20,279 --> 00:40:23,959 Speaker 2: out to organizations like Beyond Blue or Lifeline if you're 744 00:40:23,959 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 2: wanting more immediate support. 745 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:26,920 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening,