Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Miya acknowledges
Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
Speaker 1: is recorded on. Hey, no filter listeners, it's Maya. I'm
Speaker 1: bringing back an important episode today since this month marks
Speaker 1: the ten year anniversary of the Lint Cafe siege in Sydney,
Speaker 1: where two wonderful people, Tory Johnson and Katrina Dawson, tragically
Speaker 1: lost their lives. In this episode, which originally came out
Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen, I speak with Louisa Hope. She was
Speaker 1: also in the cafe that day. She is a survivor
Speaker 1: of the siege. She and her mum, Robin, were held
Speaker 1: at gunpoint with all the other hostages for seventeen hours
Speaker 1: before the government was taken down by police. Louisa's story
Speaker 1: is truly incredible, and hearing her first hand account of
Speaker 1: that harrowing, shocking day is so moving and riveting. Here's
Speaker 1: Louisa Hope's story.
Speaker 2: You have that moment where you go, well, this is it.
Speaker 2: I remember thinking survived this whole day and now we're
Speaker 2: going to die right now.
Speaker 1: From Mamma Mia, I'm Meya Friedman, and you're listening to
Speaker 1: No Filter A podcast about people with fascinating stories to tell.
Speaker 1: When Louisa Hope walked into Sydney's Link Cafe five years ago,
Speaker 1: she never expected her life would change within minutes. It
Speaker 1: began as a very ordinary day, but over the next
Speaker 1: seventeen hours, Louisa and her mother were held at gunpoint
Speaker 1: and trapped along with sixteen other hostages, before the siege
Speaker 1: ended in gunfire and tragedy. If you're anything like me,
Speaker 1: I bet you remember exactly what you were doing that
Speaker 1: day when you heard that a terrorist was holding people
Speaker 1: hostage in a cafe in the middle of the Sydney CBD,
Speaker 1: mere meters from a TV station. But what went on
Speaker 1: inside the Link Cafe that long day and dark night,
Speaker 1: and what happened afterwards to the survivor how did they recover?
Speaker 1: Did they recover? Louisa Hope is one of those rare
Speaker 1: people I've met only a few times in my life.
Speaker 1: It's like it's like she's lit from within. I'm not
Speaker 1: sure what it is, but this is honestly one of
Speaker 1: the most extraordinary conversations I've ever had, and Louisa is
Speaker 1: quite simply one of the most riveting people I've interviewed
Speaker 1: In the four years since this podcast began. Here is
Speaker 1: the very aptly named Louisa Hope. I know that Lee
Speaker 1: Sales interviewed you for her book An Ordinary Day. It
Speaker 1: was an ordinary day, yes, so everybody that was there.
Speaker 1: There was nothing special about it at all. In the beginning.
Speaker 1: How did the day start for you and your mum?
Speaker 2: So mum and I were we had come to town
Speaker 2: the night before actually, because we had an appointment at
Speaker 2: the lawyer who happened to be in the same building
Speaker 2: as the lint upstairs. And we are Mum's out near
Speaker 2: the Blue Mountains living at the time, so we decided
Speaker 2: that we'd come in on the Sunday night. We stayed
Speaker 2: down at the Hilton and we just decided rather than
Speaker 2: deal with the traffic on the Monday morning, that we
Speaker 2: would do that. And we had a lovely time together anyway.
Speaker 2: And so in the morning we had that moment where
Speaker 2: we went, will we go to the Link for breakfast
Speaker 2: or will we just stay here at the Hilton? What
Speaker 2: will we do? You know, tossing and turning the idea,
Speaker 2: and decided we only wanted something small, so we went,
Speaker 2: of course to the Link.
Speaker 3: We just you know, that's sliding all moment.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so just random random But you know, really,
Speaker 2: Mum and I probably were the people who should have
Speaker 2: least been there because you know.
Speaker 1: It wasn't your town, it was in your area.
Speaker 2: I know, that's right. We were in the Yeah, very
Speaker 2: much in that wrong kind of place and the wrong
Speaker 2: story for us actually at that time.
Speaker 3: But there you go, that's what happens.
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry about your mom. You lost your mom
Speaker 1: last year.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, she died in September. And its us
Speaker 2: as a family. We all feel that Mum was never
Speaker 2: the same after the cafe and we're very aware of that.
Speaker 2: But you know, we're comforted by the fact that she
Speaker 2: had a really glorious death and that was it was
Speaker 2: lovely really to all be together for that. But yes,
Speaker 2: we imagined that we were going to have it for
Speaker 2: quite a lot longer because she's very vital and you know,
Speaker 2: go go kind of woman.
Speaker 1: Having come so close to death on that day, How
Speaker 1: was it different when you know, because the sliding doors moments, again,
Speaker 1: you could have both lost your lives so easily in
Speaker 1: the cafe that day. How did it go in the end.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, the concluding moments I don't know. You know,
Speaker 2: some people would have watched it right to the end
Speaker 2: on television, but for us inside, the intensity and the
Speaker 2: you know, the adrenaline that just rushes through your body,
Speaker 2: it's so overwhelming. It's like you drip adrenaline in that moment,
Speaker 2: and I think that, well, actually, Mum and I both
Speaker 2: came out of the cafe we were related to discover
Speaker 2: assuming that the other was dead, because we couldn't imagine
Speaker 2: how anyone could have survived. And you know, in the
Speaker 2: fact of the matter is is that all of us
Speaker 2: were injured in the cafe at the end, anyone who
Speaker 2: was in the actual cafe was injured, and sadly, of course,
Speaker 2: Katrina's injuries.
Speaker 3: Led to her death.
Speaker 2: So you know, but the moment of thinking that you're
Speaker 2: absolutely going to die right there and then it's very real.
Speaker 2: You know, you just sort of kind of have that
Speaker 2: moment where you go, well, this is it. This is
Speaker 2: really going to be it. I remember thinking survived this
Speaker 2: whole day and now we're going to die right now,
Speaker 2: and so that's kind of like it just stops you
Speaker 2: in your in your heart and in your in your tracks.
Speaker 1: Really does your life flash before your eyes? Like they say,
Speaker 1: did you think of a person? Did you think of
Speaker 1: a what did you think?
Speaker 2: No? I just thought, well, actually what I thought was, oh, well,
Speaker 2: god here I'm coming, ready or not? You know, this
Speaker 2: is me and there's no time now to make any
Speaker 2: addressments or amends or try and do things different for
Speaker 2: a bucket list. That's right. May It definitely was too
Speaker 2: late for that bucket list. And it was kind of like, yes,
Speaker 2: well here we are, it's going to end like this,
Speaker 2: just the shock of that idea.
Speaker 1: But where were you in that moment?
Speaker 2: I was on the floor. I was on the floor actually,
Speaker 2: and having been standing right next to the gunman, I
Speaker 2: kind of suddenly found myself on the floor. So and
Speaker 2: I had my hands covering my eyes because the gunfire
Speaker 2: was so intense and it was just full on, and
Speaker 2: I actually had that thought, oh, well, I'm going to
Speaker 2: die right here, right now, and those will watch, you know.
Speaker 2: So I took my hands away and opened my eyes,
Speaker 2: but could hardly see a thing the gun smoke in
Speaker 2: the room, and of course it was dark, but it's
Speaker 2: so intense it was very hard to see. You know.
Speaker 2: I figured I'm as well watch it was gonna die.
Speaker 1: What happened when the gunshots stopped.
Speaker 2: You know, that was really interesting. That's because that's just
Speaker 2: how it was. It was this intense which felt like
Speaker 2: you know ages, you know, just like a car accident,
Speaker 2: fast and slow at the same time. But when it stopped,
Speaker 2: it just stopped suddenly, just oh, okay, it's over. And
Speaker 2: I had that oh I'm still alive, and I'm kind
Speaker 2: of feeling my head thinking, am I okay? And because
Speaker 2: I had seen my foot in the hole on my
Speaker 2: foot already and I realized that, and I thought, okay,
Speaker 2: it's just my foot, I'm okay. Everywhere else okay, And
Speaker 2: then you kind of start I'm starting to slowly get
Speaker 2: myself up. In the next minute, one of the tag
Speaker 2: team guys is over the top of me shouting, shouting,
Speaker 2: get up, get up, run run, and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: I can't run my foot and he hauls me up
Speaker 2: and at the same time he says to me, can
Speaker 2: you hop? And I went, okay, I guess only I can.
Speaker 2: So you know, it was one of those crazy kind
Speaker 2: of moments. But you know, the tack guy says hop
Speaker 2: and you hop, yeah exactly.
Speaker 1: So you know, did you know where your mum was
Speaker 1: at that stage, how would you two become separated?
Speaker 2: Well, we had been positioned on either side of him,
Speaker 2: so Mum was on the right side of him, closest
Speaker 2: to the kitchen at the lint, and I was on
Speaker 2: the left, closest to martin place side of him, and
Speaker 2: so we had gotten separated in the you know, the
Speaker 2: furor of what was happening at the end. So that
Speaker 2: separation was just like added to the So once you
Speaker 2: kind of do the check, yes, I'm all in one piece,
Speaker 2: and then you know, they come behind me, actually two
Speaker 2: of the tack guys because I was obviously slow, and
Speaker 2: scooped me up and took me out and just gently
Speaker 2: placed me on the on the you know road there
Speaker 2: in Phillips Street, and you know, I kind of had
Speaker 2: that moment of oh, I'm alive and the overwhelming gratitude like,
Speaker 2: thank God, I am still alive, and at the same time,
Speaker 2: but Mum must be dead. There's no way she could
Speaker 2: have survived because you know, I actually I didn't know
Speaker 2: at that stage that Katrina was still in the cafe.
Speaker 2: I thought you'd escaped with all the others, And in
Speaker 2: a flash of a moment, I saw that Marcia was
Speaker 2: still there, but I just had assumed that it was
Speaker 2: just my mother and I and Tory that was still
Speaker 2: left there. That was all that he realized was there
Speaker 2: the gunman, and.
Speaker 1: So was everyone else hiding.
Speaker 2: Everyone else had escaped, so they'd all escaped, and the escape.
Speaker 2: I'm so grateful that they had escaped, because you know,
Speaker 2: if there had been more of us in the cafe,
Speaker 2: there perhaps would have been more definitely more injury, and
Speaker 2: perhaps more may have died.
Speaker 1: I'm told that the people who did escape, many of
Speaker 1: them lived with tremendous guilt.
Speaker 2: Oh if I could only just say to all of them,
Speaker 2: you know, please don't be guilty. I'm so grateful that
Speaker 2: you got out when you did. And I think in
Speaker 2: high that was the smartest thing to do. I mean,
Speaker 2: certainly Mum and I, you know, we talked about it afterwards,
Speaker 2: but we were all just waiting because we assumed the
Speaker 2: police were coming. So we're just waiting the police will come.
Speaker 2: And so yes, those who took the initiative to run
Speaker 2: to escape the way they did, that was the wisest
Speaker 2: thing to do.
Speaker 1: How did the gunman react every time he found out
Speaker 1: people escaped, or did he not realize.
Speaker 2: Well, he was very aware that the first three escaped. Originally,
Speaker 2: like all of us, in that moment, he thought that
Speaker 2: the police were coming in. And it was only the
Speaker 2: quick thinking of young Jared Malton Hoffman who said that no, no,
Speaker 2: they've escaped that we all suddenly went from like off
Speaker 2: the Richter, you know, tension and you know, everything was
Speaker 2: going nuts at the moment. In the moment, then he
Speaker 2: just suddenly calmed down, realizing that that escaped and that
Speaker 2: the police weren't coming. But what he didn't know was
Speaker 2: that the other two young girls had quietly escaped, just
Speaker 2: ever so quietly. It was amazing really, So he didn't
Speaker 2: know that there were actually five that had escaped. He
Speaker 2: only thought that three, three men had escaped. However, and
Speaker 2: this is an important thing to be thinking about. On
Speaker 2: the day, the media were reporting every hour on the
Speaker 2: hour that five people had escaped. So we had to
Speaker 2: calm him with that by saying things like, oh, you
Speaker 2: know what the media is like, they just lie, they're exaggerating.
Speaker 2: Only three people have escaped. Now, this was important for
Speaker 2: us in the room because when those three first three
Speaker 2: had escaped, he told us all that if anyone else escaped,
Speaker 2: he'd kill someone. So we're all on high alert. In
Speaker 2: a day that was already like ultra tense. That just
Speaker 2: sort of added to the tension. So every time the
Speaker 2: news reports were coming through, we had to calm him
Speaker 2: down by just saying, you know, the media lie, but
Speaker 2: they were reporting a fact as it was true. However,
Speaker 2: it was impacting on us in the room, and if
Speaker 2: he had kind of like figured it out, then we
Speaker 2: could have really been in a dire situation.
Speaker 1: The media had no idea that you had access or
Speaker 1: did they, And how did you have access to media.
Speaker 2: On everyone's phones? You know, we all have media in
Speaker 2: our pockets now.
Speaker 1: So he didn't take everyone's phone.
Speaker 3: He did.
Speaker 2: What he did was he asked us right up front
Speaker 2: and he said, put your ID and your wallets and
Speaker 2: your phones on the table in front of us, you know,
Speaker 2: where we were all sitting. So we all did that.
Speaker 2: So of course, but everyone had phones, and so as
Speaker 2: the day went on and he progressively was trying to
Speaker 2: get us to get him media attention, using our phones
Speaker 2: become a thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So yeah, we all had you know, information all day,
Speaker 2: and everything that was being reported was being reported into us.
Speaker 2: So it's an interesting kind of thing for us to
Speaker 2: think about, especially for the media. How do we address
Speaker 2: this from a global situation. Whatever is being said in
Speaker 2: the media will of course, we've just got to assume
Speaker 2: that it does that we'll be impacting on a live situation.
Speaker 2: For example, very late in the night early morning in London,
Speaker 2: BBC were reporting on what was happening in Sydney. So
Speaker 2: they were saying, we're listening to the report, and it
Speaker 2: was one of those moments when the BBC London saying,
Speaker 2: and we're watching live in Sydney the hostage situation there,
Speaker 2: and we can see that the police are surrounding the cafe.
Speaker 2: And I remember absolutely holding my breath because he thought
Speaker 2: that there were no police. He really thought that there
Speaker 2: were no police surrounding the cafe, that they're all off
Speaker 2: at a distance, because that's what he's demanded being So
Speaker 2: of course we're hearing that, and I could actually hear
Speaker 2: my heart thumping in my chest because I knew that
Speaker 2: if he realized that the police were surrounding the caf
Speaker 2: from a report from London, the other side of the world,
Speaker 2: that once again we're all at risk. Fortunately, and I
Speaker 2: do not know how he missed it. It may have
Speaker 2: been he didn't catch the lady's accent, or he didn't
Speaker 2: he was fatiguing, or he was distracted somehow and he
Speaker 2: did not hear that, and he did not react. But
Speaker 2: it certainly put me on edge.
Speaker 1: And mum, everybody, really, when did you first become aware
Speaker 1: on that morning that it wasn't just a regular cup
Speaker 1: of hot chocolate.
Speaker 2: You know likes just such a strange circumstance. I was
Speaker 2: actually I decided that, you know, it was time to go,
Speaker 2: and I went to pay for our breakfast and the
Speaker 2: young girl who was serving me I think it was April,
Speaker 2: and she said she was just there taking my money,
Speaker 2: and her mouth is a gast. I'm thinking, this young
Speaker 2: girl is not paying attention, you know, but of course
Speaker 2: I'm paying her. And she could see, you know, behind me,
Speaker 2: and she could see him standing up, starting to make
Speaker 2: his proclamation and putting his bandana on. And so by
Speaker 2: the time I turned around to go back to sit down,
Speaker 2: like I said, putting his bandanna on, and he's adjusting himself.
Speaker 2: He's making his speech. He's saying, I want you to
Speaker 2: know Australia is under attack and I want to speak
Speaker 2: to the Prime Minister on national radio, and I've got
Speaker 2: a bomb in my backpack, and I'm thinking in my head,
Speaker 2: I actually thought, oh, this is ridiculous.
Speaker 3: It's a joke.
Speaker 2: You know, we're across the road from Channel seven. This
Speaker 2: must be some sort of like perverted kind of candid camera.
Speaker 2: But when he pulled out the gun, it was then
Speaker 2: mea that I just like went, it's real. You know,
Speaker 2: this is real. And of course you think in that moment, well,
Speaker 2: this is a terrorist action, and what to terrorists do?
Speaker 3: They kill you?
Speaker 2: Right, You're dead. So it's just that oh adjustment of
Speaker 2: your reality. You know, one minute I'm thinking about the
Speaker 2: rest of our morning, and the next minute, right here,
Speaker 2: right now, we're dead. But of course that wasn't what
Speaker 2: he did.
Speaker 1: Did people react in different ways.
Speaker 2: I think we're all just a little bit stunned. And
Speaker 2: everyone was very quiet and listening, trying to pay attention.
Speaker 2: The gun himself was busy trying to articulate very clearly.
Speaker 2: He was obviously aware of his accent and was trying
Speaker 2: to articulate very clearly what his demands were and what
Speaker 2: he was expecting of us. So we all just were
Speaker 2: like in a state of shock. Really, so there was
Speaker 2: no kind of screaming or anything like that.
Speaker 1: It was just, yeah, did he sort of try to
Speaker 1: organize you very quickly or did you organize yourselves?
Speaker 2: No, he was well, he was instantly in control. Obviously
Speaker 2: the gun, threat of bombs, all that kind of thing.
Speaker 2: You know, the average Australian doesn't really have to do
Speaker 2: with those things. So we were, you know, all trying
Speaker 2: to work out how to do that. And of course
Speaker 2: you must remember, apart from the staff, we were all
Speaker 2: random strangers, so it was just that really bizarre sort
Speaker 2: of circumstance. So we're all sort of listening, trying to
Speaker 2: hear what he's saying, doing what he's telling us. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, oh, he's going to line us up and
Speaker 2: shoot us in my head. But of course, like obviously
Speaker 2: he didn't do that, so he was quickly he started
Speaker 2: to say things like keep your eyes closed, so it
Speaker 2: was very controlling of everything. Close your eyes, open your eyes,
Speaker 2: you stand here, you stand there. He quickly arranged people
Speaker 2: around the room, had people stand up on the bench
Speaker 2: seat and there in the cafe so that they could
Speaker 2: be seen out the big windows, and people you know,
Speaker 2: across the front, so it was pretty full on and
Speaker 2: intense and the immediate sort of starting and then we waited.
Speaker 1: Did he get the chance to talk amongst yourself. No,
Speaker 1: he was very controlling of all of that for the
Speaker 1: whole day.
Speaker 2: Yes, so that kind of laxed a little when we
Speaker 2: all got with the program, and that we all realized
Speaker 2: that what he wanted was media attention, so therefore we
Speaker 2: needed to be the ones to get that attention for him.
Speaker 2: So we're all just then scrambling, you know. Initially at
Speaker 2: one stage he had me ring triple O and he
Speaker 2: was happy with his with the phone call and he said, oh,
Speaker 2: you can be my secretary, I mean, like seriously. And
Speaker 2: then then later on from that he told me to
Speaker 2: find ABC Radio on the phone. Well, so technically challenged.
Speaker 2: Not the best with the phone at the you know,
Speaker 2: most times, but in particular because I had forgotten my
Speaker 2: own phone that day and so it was my mother's
Speaker 2: phone that was on the table, and so I'm trying
Speaker 2: to scramble and find ABC Radio on the phone, and
Speaker 2: I found ABC Radio book Club, but he wasn't interested
Speaker 2: in the book club. So, you know, in that moment,
Speaker 2: young Jared quickly said, I'll do it hand me the phone.
Speaker 2: So when I handed over the phone to Jared, it
Speaker 2: was like everything shifted and Jared very much become the
Speaker 2: lead in the room. And so he quickly found radio
Speaker 2: on the phone and did all that kind of thing,
Speaker 2: and so the attention shifted very much to Jared, and
Speaker 2: Jared become in a way like the man for the gunman.
Speaker 2: So it was really interesting that dynamic, and I was
Speaker 2: so grateful because you know, like technology is not really
Speaker 2: my friend.
Speaker 3: Pressure.
Speaker 2: So Jared worked there, Yes, Jared young. Jared was one
Speaker 2: of the young workers. He was nineteen at the time.
Speaker 2: Many of them were only young, as was Fiona Marshall,
Speaker 2: only nineteen. So you know, yeah, they're just well I
Speaker 2: wouldn't like me to say it, but they're just babies,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you need a millennial to get that job.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. So they were there.
Speaker 1: Could you communicate to each other with your eyes?
Speaker 2: Well, obviously we were, but he was onto that. He
Speaker 2: was quickly onto that, and he was saying, who's looking
Speaker 2: at who? And certainly because once he realized that, you know,
Speaker 2: Robin was my mother was totally separating us and no
Speaker 2: talking with your eyes and if he thought someone was
Speaker 2: looking too long at someone else, he was what are
Speaker 2: you doing?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 2: So he was certainly definitely in the early stages, he
Speaker 2: was definitely onto all of that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: The people then that escaped in little groups, how did
Speaker 1: they coordinate that?
Speaker 2: You know? I think that they were just quick And
Speaker 2: the three men who escaped, initially they were sitting at
Speaker 2: the front, they were lined up the front together on
Speaker 2: individual seats, and so they obviously were able to have
Speaker 2: little communications because their backs were to the inside of
Speaker 2: the cafe and they were facing out near the front door.
Speaker 2: So they're obviously able to have little communications together. And
Speaker 2: they quickly organized how they're going to do it, and
Speaker 2: they just did it. I mean, like how brave were they?
Speaker 1: And so yeah, if you couldn't, I mean, you had
Speaker 1: a lot of time to feel in your mind, did
Speaker 1: you kind of try to work out who was who
Speaker 1: and what their story was about.
Speaker 2: We were all in our little groups, and so he
Speaker 2: separated us out from our groups really and put everybody everywhere.
Speaker 2: So that kind of like style build communication between us.
Speaker 3: But as the.
Speaker 2: Day went on, and also because we were having toilet breaks.
Speaker 1: How did that work? I was going to ask about
Speaker 1: the toilet.
Speaker 2: Well, so thank goodness, you know, really, I mean one
Speaker 2: could almost say inverted commas. That was a kindness that
Speaker 2: worked because he just decided that we needed to and
Speaker 2: I think really because it was obvious that because he
Speaker 2: had kicked away my walking stick from me to start with,
Speaker 2: and when it was time to go to the bathroom,
Speaker 2: I said, can I have my walking stick?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 2: No, And then he said, Fiona, you take Louisa because
Speaker 2: he worked out our names Louisa to the bathroom. So
Speaker 2: Fiona took me to the bathroom and then we started
Speaker 2: this whole routine of lint workers taking us to the bathroom,
Speaker 2: predominantly Fiona or Jared, and so we were able to
Speaker 2: communicate in that way as well. So they were kind
Speaker 2: of like a conduit between us.
Speaker 1: When we're going to it, would you whispered to them?
Speaker 2: Yeahroom was you know, a little bit of a distance,
Speaker 2: so there was a degree of privacy there. I feel like, gosh,
Speaker 2: so weird, but yeah, that's how we were kind of
Speaker 2: like talking to each other. But we didn't have any
Speaker 2: kind of grand plan for escape or anything like that.
Speaker 2: We were just kind of like, I think, going to
Speaker 2: the bathroom and young Fiona, Ma, my goodness, he told
Speaker 2: us all to give over our phones. Well she kept
Speaker 2: hers in her pocket, brave as that little girl. And
Speaker 2: you know, so when we got down to the bathroom,
Speaker 2: she says, I've got my phone.
Speaker 3: Do you want to ring anyone?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: But I mean, who remembers anybody's phone number these days?
Speaker 2: So I'm like, I'd love to, but I haven't got
Speaker 2: clue anybody's number. So yeah, there you go, and that's
Speaker 2: how the day went.
Speaker 1: I was also told that people became agitated at different times,
Speaker 1: and around the time of school pickup became quite agitated.
Speaker 3: Is that true? Aware?
Speaker 2: Like she was aware, and you know, different ones with
Speaker 2: children were aware of their children, would mention their children,
Speaker 2: you know, just different little things. I want to, you know,
Speaker 2: and try and negotiate a bit with, you know, the gunment.
Speaker 2: There was just constant talk about who was going to
Speaker 2: get out and who was going to stay, you know,
Speaker 2: and all that kind of thing. So yes, of course,
Speaker 2: there was that whole awareness of people and their children,
Speaker 2: and the stress of all of that, you know, just
Speaker 2: made the whole thing worse.
Speaker 1: I think did anything sway him. I mean, you were
Speaker 1: you have ms and you had a cane, and then
Speaker 1: you know, people had children, Julie was pregnant. There were
Speaker 1: all sorts of different people with different reasons to be
Speaker 1: allowed to go. Was everyone sort of looking for what
Speaker 1: his vulnerabilities might be or what his kindnesses might be?
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. You know, there was a lot of discussion.
Speaker 2: At one stage, he said that he would really hostage
Speaker 2: and which hostage would he release. So of course, you know,
Speaker 2: naturally you would think in a circumstance like that, everyone
Speaker 2: might be saying me me, pick me, putting up the hand,
Speaker 2: saying I'll go, you know, let me release me. But
Speaker 2: it wasn't like that. Actually, everyone was saying things like, well,
Speaker 2: you should release Robin and Louisa because Robin's old, right,
Speaker 2: and we're saying, no, no, you should release Julie because Julie's pregnant,
Speaker 2: or Harriet who was pregnant at the time, And then
Speaker 2: you know, he was saying, but who's going to be
Speaker 2: my best spokesperson when they get out, and so you know,
Speaker 2: then we're saying, well, like Jared, you know, he'd be
Speaker 2: really good at that. So there was all those kind
Speaker 2: of conversations, each of us trying to say you know,
Speaker 2: release this one or that one, and particularly we're I
Speaker 2: think we're all trying really to get the pregnant girls
Speaker 2: out if we possibly could. But at the same time
Speaker 2: it was obviously his choice. He was just messing with us, maybe,
Speaker 2: you know. But there was a lot of coming and
Speaker 2: going and discussion, and of course no one was released
Speaker 2: by him in the end, because he wanted the media attention.
Speaker 2: We wanted to be able to get a direct connection
Speaker 2: to a media outlet so that he could say I'm
Speaker 2: being so good and so kind by releasing somebody, and
Speaker 2: he wanted to get the credit for that rather than oh,
Speaker 2: he said, the media could just say.
Speaker 3: They've escaped if I don't get.
Speaker 2: Direct live coverage, So you know, that whole idea of
Speaker 2: somebody being released. Eventually, when we realized we had exhausted
Speaker 2: all opportunity for the media, it was like he said,
Speaker 2: why should I bother because I won't get the credit
Speaker 2: for it. The insanity of it.
Speaker 1: Tell me about Toy Tory.
Speaker 2: Tory was the manager of the cafe, and unlike everybody else,
Speaker 2: he referred to to Toy as the manager, which of
Speaker 2: course he was the manager.
Speaker 3: And you know, this man who's still with me every day.
Speaker 2: You know. He was very much highly regarded by his staff.
Speaker 2: They really loved him, you know. But he on the
Speaker 2: day he went on, he was aware that my mother
Speaker 2: was becoming more and more agitated, which she was. She
Speaker 2: was back chatting the gunman and I was she oh,
Speaker 2: and I was becoming more and more anxious. What was
Speaker 2: she doing, Robin, Well, she was, oh, dear mate, So
Speaker 2: she was.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 2: At one stage she stood up and hands on hips
Speaker 2: and said, I want to go to the bathroom and
Speaker 2: my daughter needs her medication. Oh, mom, just keep everything
Speaker 2: on the down low, you know. I'm trying to mom,
Speaker 2: you know. And you know when you hear your mother's
Speaker 2: angry voice, I could hear it coming. I'm thinking, oh, man,
Speaker 2: are you in trouble? Anyway, she just had that moment,
Speaker 2: And so he sends her off to the bathroom with Fionna,
Speaker 2: and then he wants to know all about my MS.
Speaker 3: What's MS?
Speaker 2: So yeah, so he calls me over sit next to him,
Speaker 2: and he gives me twenty questions about what's the why
Speaker 2: have you got MS? How do you get it?
Speaker 3: What to do?
Speaker 2: And I'm trying to explain very soundly and reasonably the
Speaker 2: intricacies of MS, and I'm thinking, gosh, you know.
Speaker 1: That's quite a human moment. It's accusing to you, Like,
Speaker 1: I imagine that's confusing because he was showing interest and yeah, exact.
Speaker 2: And this is the thing about this man, right, And
Speaker 2: this is the thing that I keep coming back to
Speaker 2: and I keep talking about, and that is the fact
Speaker 2: that he was a bad man doing a bad thing.
Speaker 2: What he was doing was just so wrong and violent,
Speaker 2: a violent act to hold somebody against the will with
Speaker 2: a gun. But at the same time, there were flashes
Speaker 2: of his kindness and his humanity, So we kind of go,
Speaker 2: what is that? Who is that? This duplicitous, double minded man.
Speaker 2: Here he is letting us have toilet brakes and later
Speaker 2: on cups of tea and food and uh, you know.
Speaker 1: Water, inquiring about your health.
Speaker 2: I know, exactly exactly, and he was sincerely interested.
Speaker 3: I'm sure of that.
Speaker 2: There was no need for him to kind of like
Speaker 2: do a little deviation into his plan to have a
Speaker 2: chat about my MS. And then you know, he's very
Speaker 2: interested in it. And then he says to me, at
Speaker 2: any time, Louisa, you want to have your medication, you
Speaker 2: just do it. You don't have to.
Speaker 3: Ask me, I thank you, thank you brother, you know.
Speaker 3: But so here we go.
Speaker 2: Here's this man explain, you know, expressing two different parts
Speaker 2: of his personality, and you think, what is that? Double minded,
Speaker 2: duplicitous and you sort of think to yourself, well, that's
Speaker 2: that man who assaults his wife, bashes it to a pulp,
Speaker 2: and then at the same time tells her he loves her. So,
Speaker 2: you know, we think that we cannot imagine what a
Speaker 2: terrorist is like, but we experience in our ordinary, everyday
Speaker 2: life that kind of man or that kind of person.
Speaker 2: So it's ay, and I say this because whilst ever
Speaker 2: we throw our hands in there and say he's not us, we're.
Speaker 1: Not that he's a madman.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, he's a madman. He's a lunatic, he's crazy.
Speaker 2: Then what we're doing is actually surrendering our opportunity to
Speaker 2: understand what this is all about. How does the violent
Speaker 2: mind really work? And so for me personally, I kind
Speaker 2: of have been on a little bit of a crusade
Speaker 2: in saying we have to grab this circumstance and actually
Speaker 2: get beyond our fear and start to do some real
Speaker 2: research to come to real understanding, because it's only in
Speaker 2: that that we're going to undo what this thing is.
Speaker 2: And so you know, there we were in that circumstance
Speaker 2: with him all those hours, and this was the reality
Speaker 2: of him, no different to us in many ways.
Speaker 1: Do you now see him as crazy? Mentally ill? Evil?
Speaker 1: How do you see him?
Speaker 2: All of those words are too easy. Actually, we need
Speaker 2: a little bit more of nuanced kind of understanding of him.
Speaker 2: And I see him as a very flawed human being
Speaker 2: whose primary motivator was his own self delusion and his
Speaker 2: narcissistic frame of obviously his existence, because you know, there's
Speaker 2: lots of other things in this man's history. I mean,
Speaker 2: at the inquest, we found out that he had forty
Speaker 2: eight separate individual sexual assault charges against him, and of
Speaker 2: course there was his involvement in the death of his
Speaker 2: ex wife, which was horrendous. And so you know, the
Speaker 2: man was one could very easily call him evil, but
Speaker 2: that was not the only cloak that he wore. So
Speaker 2: we have to get in and nutted out to see
Speaker 2: what he really is. You know, yes, even madman can
Speaker 2: be sane and to sort of box and die somebody
Speaker 2: into a little hole like that too simple and of
Speaker 2: no value to us.
Speaker 1: Now so there he was asked inquiring about your mss.
Speaker 1: Your mama demanded to be taken to the bathroom. And
Speaker 1: where was Tory through all of this.
Speaker 2: Well, Tory he had placed mostly the women around him
Speaker 2: close and all the men at a bit of a distance.
Speaker 1: So as so to use the women as human shields
Speaker 1: because he felt that there was less likely to be
Speaker 1: someone firing through the window.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well you know that.
Speaker 2: And also women he was assuming, obviously, and obviously the
Speaker 2: way he's dealt with women, he was probably feeling more
Speaker 2: confident that he could keep control of us. So anyway,
Speaker 2: Mama had you know, a few bit of backchat towards him.
Speaker 2: And then as a day went on, a little bit later,
Speaker 2: Tory had gone for bathroom break and he came back,
Speaker 2: and normally we came back and sat back in normal
Speaker 2: seats where we were last seated, but Tory actually come
Speaker 2: back and positioned himself sitting right next to Mom. And
Speaker 2: what happened then was that they were sitting on the
Speaker 2: seated on the bench seat with a table in front
Speaker 2: of them, and I was on an individual seat separated
Speaker 2: slightly from them. But where he positioned himself next to Mom,
Speaker 2: I could hear them just quietly whispering, having little jokes.
Speaker 2: I could hear little giggles, and when I had got
Speaker 2: another bathroom break myself come back, I could see them
Speaker 2: holding hands under the table. So Tory had used that
Speaker 2: as an opportunity to sit next and position himself next
Speaker 2: to my mother to calm her. And I could see
Speaker 2: that that worked because Mum was far better because it
Speaker 2: was one stage when the gunman actually said to me, Louisa,
Speaker 2: keep your mother quiet, and in the moment, I thought,
Speaker 2: you're crazy. How am I going to do that? Keep
Speaker 2: my mother quiet and ask for a daughter? Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 2: And so you know, like I hear, I am a
Speaker 2: growing up. But I had that moment where I had
Speaker 2: to say to mom, Mum, you know you're an old lady,
Speaker 2: just keep quiet. And I could see her looking at me,
Speaker 2: and I'm thinking, you know, she's kind of like, wait
Speaker 2: till you get home. You're in big trouble kind of thing,
Speaker 2: and I'm just sort of thinking, we've got it. But
Speaker 2: I knew that we just had to keep her calm.
Speaker 2: And Tory obviously read that too, because he come back
Speaker 2: after that, and like I said, he positioned himself next
Speaker 2: to her, and of course at the end, at the end,
Speaker 2: when everyone else escapes, and I had had my eyes closed.
Speaker 2: I was in this intense place of prayer actually, and
Speaker 2: then I'd heard this big bang and I'd opened my
Speaker 2: eyes and all of the others that escaped, all the
Speaker 2: other hostages, and I went, all, right, this is it.
Speaker 3: We're going.
Speaker 2: So I stood up and I started to go towards
Speaker 2: the door, but Mum and Tory were not moving, and
Speaker 2: I was trying to catch their eye, kept turning around,
Speaker 2: you know, not wanting to speak because I didn't know
Speaker 2: where the gunman was, didn't know what was happening with him.
Speaker 2: So I'm kind of trying to indicate to them, come come,
Speaker 2: you know, we're right at the end now, and I'm
Speaker 2: trying to get their attention, but they weren't moving. I'm thinking,
Speaker 2: why isn't Tory moving, Why isn't Mum moving? They're just
Speaker 2: not shifting, And so in that moment, I just thought, well,
Speaker 2: I can't leave my mother. So I lay down on
Speaker 2: the floor and thought, oh, you know, the government will
Speaker 2: kill me. But and then that situation went on. But
Speaker 2: later after, after twelve months, later, after the first anniversary,
Speaker 2: Mom and I were having a quiet moment at home,
Speaker 2: and I said to her, mom, do you remember at
Speaker 2: the end, And I got up and was going towards
Speaker 2: the door. I said to her, why didn't you and
Speaker 2: Tory run? Because I could never understand why Toy didn't run.
Speaker 2: And my mom said to me, oh, well, I was
Speaker 2: saying to Toy, you know, you go, you go, and
Speaker 2: she's making this motion. She was like she was ill,
Speaker 2: bowing him in the side, saying you go to it,
Speaker 2: you go, and he said to her, no, I'll stay,
Speaker 2: I'll stay with you. So in that moment, twelve months
Speaker 2: after the event, I suddenly realized that Tory Johnson had
Speaker 2: made a deliberate choice to stay, to stay and look
Speaker 2: after my mother, which you know is for our whole family.
Speaker 3: That is.
Speaker 2: Profound, and I understand the grief that his family must
Speaker 2: feel that his brave heart made that choice in that moment, ah,
Speaker 2: because if he had not, he would not have been
Speaker 2: there to be the one who was killed. So, you know,
Speaker 2: it's just, you know, it's hard, and I feel for
Speaker 2: his family. But I think to myself, what an amazing
Speaker 2: brave young man. And you know, his his parents, his
Speaker 2: mother and of course his partner Thomas. His bravery doesn't
Speaker 2: replace him for them. But you know, our family, we
Speaker 2: are forever grateful because in lots of ways, you know,
Speaker 2: that gave us three and a half more years with
Speaker 2: our mother and m It's you know, it's in my heart.
Speaker 1: Why do you think that the gunman chose Toy Because
Speaker 1: Tory was the last man in the cafe and he
Speaker 1: was the final authority figure.
Speaker 2: So he called Tory to. You know, he positioned Mum
Speaker 2: and I either side of him and told us to
Speaker 2: keep our eyes closed and we wouldn't get hurt. How
Speaker 2: many ridiculous really is if you do that? But then
Speaker 2: he called Tory over.
Speaker 1: You mean, as if you'd keep your eyes So you
Speaker 1: didn't keep your eyes.
Speaker 2: No, it's dark in the cafe and we're either side
Speaker 2: of him, Mum and I. And then he called Toy
Speaker 2: over and said you manager, kneel on the floor and
Speaker 2: put your hands on your head. And it was just
Speaker 2: that moment of oh my god.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't want to ask you to relive
Speaker 1: that moment, but lais, how do you get over any
Speaker 1: of this? Like I look at you sitting in front
Speaker 1: of me, and I know people go to war and
Speaker 1: that's essentially what you did. How do you do it?
Speaker 1: How do you recover?
Speaker 2: Everyone's experience is different, and trauma and we talk about
Speaker 2: post traumatic stress, and you know, trauma is a really
Speaker 2: bizarre kind of thing. And for me personally, I think
Speaker 2: that this is my experience. Mum's experience was very different.
Speaker 2: But for me, I went into a place of post trauma,
Speaker 2: like I was so overwhelmed with the gratitude, so grateful
Speaker 2: that I'd been spared in that moment, so grateful that
Speaker 2: there was a few future, and so grateful you know,
Speaker 2: Mum was still alive and you know, and also that
Speaker 2: I could have a refocus, and I just had that
Speaker 2: determination that we were going to get something good out
Speaker 2: of that awful situation. So for me, I feel in
Speaker 2: hindsight now that I went into a kind of post
Speaker 2: euphoria and that pushed me forward. And that, of course,
Speaker 2: I have to say, comes from you know, my practice,
Speaker 2: my practice of prayer, my practice of faith, and all
Speaker 2: those things that were already in my life and were
Speaker 2: part of you know, my inner life, and so all
Speaker 2: of those things built into that. But at the same time,
Speaker 2: and equally as potent, I have to say, is the
Speaker 2: overwhelming anxiety. Now, this is really interesting how we think
Speaker 2: about anxiety. But for me, I understood how I felt
Speaker 2: immediately in those final moments. And when I say the
Speaker 2: adrenaline was dripping out of me physically, I could feel
Speaker 2: like my entire body was engaged in the adrenaline and
Speaker 2: I could feel it and I was just maxed out,
Speaker 2: there's no other way to describe it. Maxed out. And
Speaker 2: it was almost like my brain was expanding. And so
Speaker 2: what happens for me now, five years later, still I
Speaker 2: can find that I can I can be some sort
Speaker 2: of circumstance. It could be traffic, or it could be
Speaker 2: any little moment, no random reason. But anxiety comes instantly
Speaker 2: from like zero to one hundred in an instant, and
Speaker 2: I can recognize it's in my body and I go, yes,
Speaker 2: I know my body has gone from zero to one
Speaker 2: hundred to one thousand to flight exactly right there. It's
Speaker 2: the same feeling that I experienced in that moment at
Speaker 2: the end, and I haven't worked out how to turn
Speaker 2: it off yet, but I have worked out how to
Speaker 2: steal my heart and just control myself as opposed to Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm here, and then I'm there, and some days I
Speaker 2: can be good at it, and some days I'm not
Speaker 2: so good at it, And I'm very blessed because I'm
Speaker 2: surrounded by a family who understand and friends who are
Speaker 2: under control. And sometimes it's a moment where a friend
Speaker 2: will sit and just have a little quiet sit and
Speaker 2: will have a prey. And sometimes it's a moment where
Speaker 2: I go into a meditative state or you just do
Speaker 2: the breathing that's associated with calming myself. There's all little
Speaker 2: tricks that you can use for that, but it's very real.
Speaker 2: The thing is, anxiety knows no level in that. So
Speaker 2: I had an experience that was pretty tense and out there.
Speaker 2: But you know, anxiety is the same for the woman
Speaker 2: who's just been assaulted in her own home, or for
Speaker 2: somebody who's facing a traffic accident or somebody who's having
Speaker 2: a stroke. Anxiety is no respector of persons, and we
Speaker 2: all experience it in our own individual way, but the same.
Speaker 2: So you know, if someone tells me they've got anxiety,
Speaker 2: I can really relate. And it doesn't matter what caused,
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter, it's all the same. So, you know,
Speaker 2: we need to be kind to each other. Sometimes you know,
Speaker 2: because we don't know what someone else is going through.
Speaker 1: There's something that happens. I always assume that anyone who
Speaker 1: experiences a tragedy has post traumatic stress and post traumatic syndrome.
Speaker 1: But I learned through reading Lee Sales's book that and
Speaker 1: actually through people that I know, not everyone has that.
Speaker 1: Some people have post traumatic growth, which is a little
Speaker 1: bit like the euphoria is probably a different stage, but
Speaker 1: the post traumatic growth is when my friend who had
Speaker 1: a stillborn baby described it to me as that the
Speaker 1: death of her daughter turned the light up in her life,
Speaker 1: not down, and she didn't expect that. Would you say
Speaker 1: that that's been what this experience has done to you?
Speaker 1: You has it turned the light up in your life?
Speaker 2: God bless your friend.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: That is such a beautiful way to express that, And
Speaker 2: that's really exactly how it really feels.
Speaker 3: I have found that.
Speaker 2: I found that for me, I felt like I expanded
Speaker 2: as a human, as a person, so that my capacity
Speaker 2: was more. So, you know, I equally feel that expansion
Speaker 2: of self and my capacity to cope with more in
Speaker 2: many ways coupled with the balancing effect of oh yeah,
Speaker 2: all that random anxiety and distress and pressure, so it's
Speaker 2: very finely tuned and needs to be very finely balanced.
Speaker 2: But if I look forward and focus myself that way,
Speaker 2: it very much is about that. So now I feel like, Okay,
Speaker 2: what else is out there that we need to fix? Change, grow, evolve?
Speaker 2: What other other things need to be looked at post siege?
Speaker 2: That business that we need to do as a society,
Speaker 2: within our institutions, and of course for me as well
Speaker 2: being involved with the nurses. So you know, it's just
Speaker 2: I feel like there's no there's no place to say
Speaker 2: no anymore. We just got to go forward.
Speaker 1: You started a foundation, oh to help nurses. Tell me
Speaker 1: about your time in hospital after the scene? Wow?
Speaker 2: Well hospital, okay.
Speaker 1: You were there for a long time. It just was
Speaker 1: full on seems unfair after what you went through.
Speaker 2: I know it was that kind of you just don't
Speaker 2: imagine that, you know, Like seriously, I thought, okay, well
Speaker 2: once I because really I thought I was going to
Speaker 2: lose my foot. I really had that moment. We had
Speaker 2: a hole in it it certainly, did you know. And
Speaker 2: what did it look like when I looked at it? Well,
Speaker 2: you know, it was pretty when it was first done,
Speaker 2: it was just like horrendous, like I used to get
Speaker 2: in a little state of shock whenever they redressed the wound,
Speaker 2: because it was just the shock of seeing it, you know.
Speaker 2: But of course now it looks now, it looks like
Speaker 2: I describe it as someone's got the barmacs.
Speaker 3: And gone on my foot.
Speaker 2: It's just it's a classic honeycome wound and it's some
Speaker 2: messy just to say the least. But you know, three
Speaker 2: months in hospital was not what I expected. I thought
Speaker 2: i'd be there two weeks, you know, by the time Chris,
Speaker 2: I'll be out, and I thought it'd be out for
Speaker 2: New Year Christmas. That didn't happen, and it just kind
Speaker 2: of extended.
Speaker 3: It extends.
Speaker 1: You needed operations, reconstruction.
Speaker 2: That's why I had three surgeries and then and then
Speaker 2: of course rehabilitation, and so I went from Prince of
Speaker 2: Wales to a private hospital in the Eastern suburbs and
Speaker 2: so that was a long time in hospital. But that
Speaker 2: time gave me well, really, you don't think about it
Speaker 2: in the moment, but in hindsight I realized it was
Speaker 2: like a blessing because it insulated me from the world
Speaker 2: immediately after the siege, and it gave me time for
Speaker 2: reflection and to think forward. And also my experience with
Speaker 2: the nurses then sent me on that journey. And so
Speaker 2: when sixty Minutes we're discussing, you know, if we're going
Speaker 2: to talk to them, And like my mother and I
Speaker 2: knew from the go get that we would have to
Speaker 2: share with everyone because we knew that if we'd been
Speaker 2: on the outside, we would have wanted to know what
Speaker 2: happened to the people on the inside. So we understood that.
Speaker 2: And also because I personally felt that we were all
Speaker 2: part of what happened that day, like this was not
Speaker 2: something that happened to just me and my mother and my
Speaker 2: fellow hostages. It happened to the whole country, so we
Speaker 2: had to be accountable for that. So anyway, when sixty
Speaker 2: Minutes generously gave me that twenty five thousand dollars and
Speaker 2: Mike bed matched that money, had a little fifty grand
Speaker 2: in my hand, and I kind of thought, right, I
Speaker 2: know what I wanted to do with it, because I
Speaker 2: was going to do a little I thought originally that
Speaker 2: I just do a little fundraiser for the nurses within
Speaker 2: my own community, and we get a few grand and
Speaker 2: I give it to the nurses on my ward. But
Speaker 2: fifty grand was a whole lot more money. And so
Speaker 2: I went to the foundation at Prince of Wales and
Speaker 2: the Lulu Salapa, who was the CEO there, brilliant, amazing.
Speaker 2: That foundation runs like a machine, I've got to tell you.
Speaker 2: So of course, Lulu had been a nurse in a
Speaker 2: previous life, and so she knew exactly what I was
Speaker 2: saying when I said I don't want this to go
Speaker 2: for a carpet or for a new paint in the
Speaker 2: hospital or anything, or in the boardroom or anything. I
Speaker 2: wanted to be for nurse initiated projects. And she absolutely
Speaker 2: got that. She knew exactly how to create that make
Speaker 2: it happen, and so that's what happened. And of course
Speaker 2: once I started to see what the nurses were doing
Speaker 2: with the money, I couldn't stop, you know, I just
Speaker 2: had to keep trying to raise money and raise awareness
Speaker 2: to the nurses and what they do for us. So,
Speaker 2: you know, I could rave on about this for hours
Speaker 2: because it's my happy place.
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's part of your post traumatic growth also, right,
Speaker 1: finding a way to channel this thing that happened to
Speaker 1: you that was so shocking into something positive.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, it really was an answer to my
Speaker 2: prayer in many ways, because I so wanted something good
Speaker 2: to come out of this, and now I realize that
Speaker 2: the good is not going to come through me. It's
Speaker 2: going to come through the nurses and the work that
Speaker 2: they are doing. Because the nurses, all of their projects
Speaker 2: are about, you know, how to help us as patients,
Speaker 2: and that of course is the universal focus of nurses,
Speaker 2: and so yeah, I just have the privilege of being
Speaker 2: involved in that. I'm just like, my goodness, how blessed
Speaker 2: am I?
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny what you just said about how
Speaker 1: you recognize that it's something that happened to all of us,
Speaker 1: not just the people in the cafe, which sounds almost
Speaker 1: arrogant when you particularly when you think about Tory and
Speaker 1: Katrina and the families that they left behind and all
Speaker 1: of you that were in there. How did you sort
Speaker 1: of become aware that we do all sort of need
Speaker 1: to process and to tell you where we were that
Speaker 1: day and what our connections. I mean, the first thing
Speaker 1: I did when I met you this morning was tell
Speaker 1: you how I had connections to Tory and how I
Speaker 1: had connections to Katrina. It's a lot to take on
Speaker 1: how that affected the kind of the national psyche. How
Speaker 1: did you become aware of it?
Speaker 2: You know, when I think that, like I said, you know,
Speaker 2: I was very aware. Well, you know, like I know
Speaker 2: how we would have been, my mother and I. We
Speaker 2: would have been outside the cafe praying for people. We
Speaker 2: would have stayed up all night, We would have waited
Speaker 2: with them. A nurse once said to me, you know,
Speaker 2: about a week and a half into my state at
Speaker 2: the hospital, she said, even though I was on morning shift,
Speaker 2: I had to stay up to the very end and
Speaker 2: watch on the television. She said, I couldn't leave you
Speaker 2: in there alone. And I thought, oh, yes, I understand
Speaker 2: what she's saying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that none of us wanted to go to sleep
Speaker 1: that night.
Speaker 2: Yeah, see, you know we're all we're all leaving, that's right.
Speaker 2: And so I think that we if we recognize, this
Speaker 2: is something that happened to all of us. And when
Speaker 2: you think about what happened in Martin Place after, you know,
Speaker 2: I was in hospital and it was on a self
Speaker 2: imposed media blackout, but friends were bringing me news and
Speaker 2: telling me stories and photographs, flowers, flowers and people. They're
Speaker 2: telling me about random strangers sitting and talking and praying
Speaker 2: and you know, Muslim people being there and everyone sharing together,
Speaker 2: and you know, of course the Ride with Me campaign
Speaker 2: that happened afterwards, So all of that stuff you kind
Speaker 2: of I think it very clearly made it obvious that
Speaker 2: we were all in this together. So therefore we had
Speaker 2: to find a way to recover together. So for me,
Speaker 2: that's really important, and part of that is telling our
Speaker 2: stories to each other. And so I have great respect
Speaker 2: you know, people come and tell me.
Speaker 3: And you know.
Speaker 2: Lesa Eyes's book, of course, you know she talks about
Speaker 2: things like that where but we all had an ownership,
Speaker 2: did we not?
Speaker 3: In Threadbow and.
Speaker 2: What happened to poor with Arthur, So we all have
Speaker 2: a part of it. And if we think that it's
Speaker 2: just oh yeah, something that happened on a news cycle,
Speaker 2: well actually it's not, because we're all impacted by these things.
Speaker 2: So how do we recover together?
Speaker 1: That's incredibly gracious of you to understand that and acknowledge it.
Speaker 1: And I'm going to guess that people would have two
Speaker 1: reactions in terms of the hostages. Some I imagine, would
Speaker 1: want to stay in touch and feel very bonded, and
Speaker 1: others would want to just walk away and never look back.
Speaker 1: Is that how it's panned out with those of you
Speaker 1: who were there and lived through.
Speaker 2: That definitely, you know, all separate individuals with individual lives
Speaker 2: and stories, and you know, sometimes contact is a reminder
Speaker 2: of that day and that's just too hard. And you know,
Speaker 2: I totally respect that, and you know, my heart's always
Speaker 2: you know, are you okay and how are you doing
Speaker 2: and all that kind of stuff, But I also am
Speaker 2: aware that I myself don't want to be an inflictor
Speaker 2: of further pain. So you know, it's really hard to
Speaker 2: kind of just walk that fine line between respect and care.
Speaker 2: So yes, you just have to welp, hands off and
Speaker 2: wait really.
Speaker 1: So yeah, do you stay in touch?
Speaker 2: And a few of them I too, Yes, definitely, and
Speaker 2: I value that so much and I'm always keen for
Speaker 2: any news of anyone else, but just so don't want
Speaker 2: to invade them, you know, because we're five years and so,
Speaker 2: you know, so aren't we inverted commas over that already?
Speaker 2: But it's just it's not like that. It's never over, actually,
Speaker 2: and so I don't never be over for the families.
Speaker 2: But equally, you know, you stand up and you dust
Speaker 2: yourself off and you get on, but it's always.
Speaker 1: There, Louisa. I just want to thank you. I mean,
Speaker 1: I understand that so many of the survivors from that
Speaker 1: day and the families have wanted to retreat and you haven't.
Speaker 1: You've kept being out there and speaking to be of
Speaker 1: service and to help us collectively process this, as well
Speaker 1: as trying to use it for good and raise money
Speaker 1: for your foundation and to help nurses. You are such
Speaker 1: a force of good in the world. Like for everything
Speaker 1: that he was a force of dark, you are that
Speaker 1: opposite and that equalizing and you know, exceptional force of good.
Speaker 1: And I just wanted to say thank you, thank you, ma'a.
Speaker 1: I hope that the incredible I don't know luminescence of
Speaker 1: Louisa came through in that interview in the same way
Speaker 1: that it did in the room. We were all in tears,
Speaker 1: my producer, our person behind the camera, and the guy
Speaker 1: that came along with Louisa as her sort of support
Speaker 1: person because she walks with the cane and sher foot's bandaged,
Speaker 1: but she had this beautiful, bright orange patent leather strappy
Speaker 1: sandals around her foot, and she was wearing this gorgeous
Speaker 1: floral dress and she was telling me this amazing story
Speaker 1: of how the day before she'd been in the city
Speaker 1: and she'd fallen over, and she said, that's something that
Speaker 1: happens not infrequently because of her foot, and she's some
Speaker 1: times loses her footing. And she was in the middle
Speaker 1: of the street and a guy came to help her
Speaker 1: and he said, oh, he noticed that she had a
Speaker 1: bandage on her foot, and he said, oh, were you okay?
Speaker 1: What happened? And she said, oh, I was in the
Speaker 1: siege and I got some shrapnel in my foot. And
Speaker 1: he said, oh, my god, my son is best friends
Speaker 1: with Katrina Dawson's son, and I just dropped both the
Speaker 1: boys at camp. And of all the people who could
Speaker 1: have come to help her in the middle of a
Speaker 1: city on an ordinary day, I don't know. Makes you
Speaker 1: wonder as you heard towards the end of the siege,
Speaker 1: Louisa was injured. She got shrapnel in her foot from
Speaker 1: all the gunfire, and afterwards she was taken to the
Speaker 1: Prince of Wales Hospital here in Sydney, where she spent
Speaker 1: three months as a patient, and she was so moved
Speaker 1: by the care and the compassion that she received there
Speaker 1: she decided to take this tragedy and turn it into
Speaker 1: something positive and she created the Louisa Hope Fund for
Speaker 1: Nurses as part of the Prince of Wales Hospital Foundation.
Speaker 1: To donate to the Prince of Wales Hospital Foundation Louisa
Speaker 1: Hope Fund for Nurses, please visit POWHF dot org dot
Speaker 1: au and we'll put a link in our show notes.
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by bridget Northeast and to the
Speaker 1: families of Katrina Dawson and Tory Johnson, we extend all
Speaker 1: our love and our deepest sympathies. Katrina and Tory are
Speaker 1: not forgotten.
Speaker 4: Hey, it's me just jumping back into your ears with
Speaker 4: no voice now. Since we recorded that interview with Louisa
Speaker 4: last week, we've also done another interview about the Sydney
Speaker 4: Link Cafe siege more generally with a journalist called Debra
Speaker 4: Snow who's written a book on it. We did it
Speaker 4: on our podcast through Crime Conversations. Jesse Stevens did that
Speaker 4: interview and it feels in a lot of the blanks
Speaker 4: that you might have and a lot of the questions
Speaker 4: that you might have after listening to Louise's incredible story,
Speaker 4: because I really had to make a decision when I
Speaker 4: was talking to her what I would talk to her about,
Speaker 4: like I could have talked to her for one hundred years, really,
Speaker 4: she was so interesting. But there were things about the gunman,
Speaker 4: about his history, about the police response, about some of
Speaker 4: the TikTok, and what happened step by step during the
Speaker 4: day that we just didn't cover. So this other interview
Speaker 4: on our podcast, True Crime Conversations, you might want to
Speaker 4: listen to it. You'll find it wherever you find your podcasts.
Speaker 4: And we've actually done it in two parts. The first
Speaker 4: part is a little bit about the gunman, or a
Speaker 4: lot about the gunment actually and what happened before the siege,
Speaker 4: and then there's a lot about the siege itself in
Speaker 4: our second part.
Speaker 1: So I have a listen to that