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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Miya acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on. Hey, no filter listeners, it's Maya. I'm

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Speaker 1: bringing back an important episode today since this month marks

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Speaker 1: the ten year anniversary of the Lint Cafe siege in Sydney,

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Speaker 1: where two wonderful people, Tory Johnson and Katrina Dawson, tragically

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Speaker 1: lost their lives. In this episode, which originally came out

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Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen, I speak with Louisa Hope. She was

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Speaker 1: also in the cafe that day. She is a survivor

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Speaker 1: of the siege. She and her mum, Robin, were held

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Speaker 1: at gunpoint with all the other hostages for seventeen hours

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Speaker 1: before the government was taken down by police. Louisa's story

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Speaker 1: is truly incredible, and hearing her first hand account of

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Speaker 1: that harrowing, shocking day is so moving and riveting. Here's

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Speaker 1: Louisa Hope's story.

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Speaker 2: You have that moment where you go, well, this is it.

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Speaker 2: I remember thinking survived this whole day and now we're

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Speaker 2: going to die right now.

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Speaker 1: From Mamma Mia, I'm Meya Friedman, and you're listening to

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Speaker 1: No Filter A podcast about people with fascinating stories to tell.

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Speaker 1: When Louisa Hope walked into Sydney's Link Cafe five years ago,

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Speaker 1: she never expected her life would change within minutes. It

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Speaker 1: began as a very ordinary day, but over the next

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Speaker 1: seventeen hours, Louisa and her mother were held at gunpoint

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Speaker 1: and trapped along with sixteen other hostages, before the siege

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Speaker 1: ended in gunfire and tragedy. If you're anything like me,

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Speaker 1: I bet you remember exactly what you were doing that

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Speaker 1: day when you heard that a terrorist was holding people

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Speaker 1: hostage in a cafe in the middle of the Sydney CBD,

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Speaker 1: mere meters from a TV station. But what went on

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Speaker 1: inside the Link Cafe that long day and dark night,

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Speaker 1: and what happened afterwards to the survivor how did they recover?

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Speaker 1: Did they recover? Louisa Hope is one of those rare

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Speaker 1: people I've met only a few times in my life.

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Speaker 1: It's like it's like she's lit from within. I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure what it is, but this is honestly one of

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Speaker 1: the most extraordinary conversations I've ever had, and Louisa is

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Speaker 1: quite simply one of the most riveting people I've interviewed

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Speaker 1: In the four years since this podcast began. Here is

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Speaker 1: the very aptly named Louisa Hope. I know that Lee

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Speaker 1: Sales interviewed you for her book An Ordinary Day. It

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Speaker 1: was an ordinary day, yes, so everybody that was there.

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Speaker 1: There was nothing special about it at all. In the beginning.

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Speaker 1: How did the day start for you and your mum?

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Speaker 2: So mum and I were we had come to town

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Speaker 2: the night before actually, because we had an appointment at

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Speaker 2: the lawyer who happened to be in the same building

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Speaker 2: as the lint upstairs. And we are Mum's out near

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Speaker 2: the Blue Mountains living at the time, so we decided

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Speaker 2: that we'd come in on the Sunday night. We stayed

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Speaker 2: down at the Hilton and we just decided rather than

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Speaker 2: deal with the traffic on the Monday morning, that we

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Speaker 2: would do that. And we had a lovely time together anyway.

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Speaker 2: And so in the morning we had that moment where

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Speaker 2: we went, will we go to the Link for breakfast

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Speaker 2: or will we just stay here at the Hilton? What

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Speaker 2: will we do? You know, tossing and turning the idea,

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Speaker 2: and decided we only wanted something small, so we went,

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Speaker 2: of course to the Link.

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Speaker 3: We just you know, that's sliding all moment.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, so just random random But you know, really,

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Speaker 2: Mum and I probably were the people who should have

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Speaker 2: least been there because you know.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't your town, it was in your area.

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Speaker 2: I know, that's right. We were in the Yeah, very

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Speaker 2: much in that wrong kind of place and the wrong

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Speaker 2: story for us actually at that time.

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Speaker 3: But there you go, that's what happens.

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Speaker 1: I'm so sorry about your mom. You lost your mom

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Speaker 1: last year.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, she died in September. And its us

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Speaker 2: as a family. We all feel that Mum was never

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Speaker 2: the same after the cafe and we're very aware of that.

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Speaker 2: But you know, we're comforted by the fact that she

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Speaker 2: had a really glorious death and that was it was

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Speaker 2: lovely really to all be together for that. But yes,

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Speaker 2: we imagined that we were going to have it for

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Speaker 2: quite a lot longer because she's very vital and you know,

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Speaker 2: go go kind of woman.

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Speaker 1: Having come so close to death on that day, How

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Speaker 1: was it different when you know, because the sliding doors moments, again,

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Speaker 1: you could have both lost your lives so easily in

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Speaker 1: the cafe that day. How did it go in the end.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, the concluding moments I don't know. You know,

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Speaker 2: some people would have watched it right to the end

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Speaker 2: on television, but for us inside, the intensity and the

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Speaker 2: you know, the adrenaline that just rushes through your body,

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Speaker 2: it's so overwhelming. It's like you drip adrenaline in that moment,

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Speaker 2: and I think that, well, actually, Mum and I both

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Speaker 2: came out of the cafe we were related to discover

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Speaker 2: assuming that the other was dead, because we couldn't imagine

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Speaker 2: how anyone could have survived. And you know, in the

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Speaker 2: fact of the matter is is that all of us

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Speaker 2: were injured in the cafe at the end, anyone who

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Speaker 2: was in the actual cafe was injured, and sadly, of course,

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Speaker 2: Katrina's injuries.

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Speaker 3: Led to her death.

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Speaker 2: So you know, but the moment of thinking that you're

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Speaker 2: absolutely going to die right there and then it's very real.

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Speaker 2: You know, you just sort of kind of have that

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Speaker 2: moment where you go, well, this is it. This is

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Speaker 2: really going to be it. I remember thinking survived this

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Speaker 2: whole day and now we're going to die right now,

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Speaker 2: and so that's kind of like it just stops you

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Speaker 2: in your in your heart and in your in your tracks.

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Speaker 1: Really does your life flash before your eyes? Like they say,

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Speaker 1: did you think of a person? Did you think of

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Speaker 1: a what did you think?

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Speaker 2: No? I just thought, well, actually what I thought was, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: god here I'm coming, ready or not? You know, this

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Speaker 2: is me and there's no time now to make any

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Speaker 2: addressments or amends or try and do things different for

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Speaker 2: a bucket list. That's right. May It definitely was too

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Speaker 2: late for that bucket list. And it was kind of like, yes,

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Speaker 2: well here we are, it's going to end like this,

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Speaker 2: just the shock of that idea.

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Speaker 1: But where were you in that moment?

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Speaker 2: I was on the floor. I was on the floor actually,

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Speaker 2: and having been standing right next to the gunman, I

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Speaker 2: kind of suddenly found myself on the floor. So and

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Speaker 2: I had my hands covering my eyes because the gunfire

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Speaker 2: was so intense and it was just full on, and

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Speaker 2: I actually had that thought, oh, well, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: die right here, right now, and those will watch, you know.

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Speaker 2: So I took my hands away and opened my eyes,

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Speaker 2: but could hardly see a thing the gun smoke in

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Speaker 2: the room, and of course it was dark, but it's

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Speaker 2: so intense it was very hard to see. You know.

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Speaker 2: I figured I'm as well watch it was gonna die.

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Speaker 1: What happened when the gunshots stopped.

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Speaker 2: You know, that was really interesting. That's because that's just

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Speaker 2: how it was. It was this intense which felt like

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Speaker 2: you know ages, you know, just like a car accident,

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Speaker 2: fast and slow at the same time. But when it stopped,

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Speaker 2: it just stopped suddenly, just oh, okay, it's over. And

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Speaker 2: I had that oh I'm still alive, and I'm kind

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Speaker 2: of feeling my head thinking, am I okay? And because

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Speaker 2: I had seen my foot in the hole on my

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Speaker 2: foot already and I realized that, and I thought, okay,

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Speaker 2: it's just my foot, I'm okay. Everywhere else okay, And

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Speaker 2: then you kind of start I'm starting to slowly get

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Speaker 2: myself up. In the next minute, one of the tag

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Speaker 2: team guys is over the top of me shouting, shouting,

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Speaker 2: get up, get up, run run, and I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I can't run my foot and he hauls me up

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Speaker 2: and at the same time he says to me, can

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Speaker 2: you hop? And I went, okay, I guess only I can.

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Speaker 2: So you know, it was one of those crazy kind

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Speaker 2: of moments. But you know, the tack guy says hop

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Speaker 2: and you hop, yeah exactly.

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Speaker 1: So you know, did you know where your mum was

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Speaker 1: at that stage, how would you two become separated?

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Speaker 2: Well, we had been positioned on either side of him,

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Speaker 2: so Mum was on the right side of him, closest

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Speaker 2: to the kitchen at the lint, and I was on

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Speaker 2: the left, closest to martin place side of him, and

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Speaker 2: so we had gotten separated in the you know, the

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Speaker 2: furor of what was happening at the end. So that

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Speaker 2: separation was just like added to the So once you

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Speaker 2: kind of do the check, yes, I'm all in one piece,

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Speaker 2: and then you know, they come behind me, actually two

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Speaker 2: of the tack guys because I was obviously slow, and

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Speaker 2: scooped me up and took me out and just gently

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Speaker 2: placed me on the on the you know road there

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Speaker 2: in Phillips Street, and you know, I kind of had

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Speaker 2: that moment of oh, I'm alive and the overwhelming gratitude like,

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Speaker 2: thank God, I am still alive, and at the same time,

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Speaker 2: but Mum must be dead. There's no way she could

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Speaker 2: have survived because you know, I actually I didn't know

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Speaker 2: at that stage that Katrina was still in the cafe.

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Speaker 2: I thought you'd escaped with all the others, And in

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Speaker 2: a flash of a moment, I saw that Marcia was

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Speaker 2: still there, but I just had assumed that it was

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Speaker 2: just my mother and I and Tory that was still

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Speaker 2: left there. That was all that he realized was there

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Speaker 2: the gunman, and.

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Speaker 1: So was everyone else hiding.

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Speaker 2: Everyone else had escaped, so they'd all escaped, and the escape.

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Speaker 2: I'm so grateful that they had escaped, because you know,

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Speaker 2: if there had been more of us in the cafe,

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Speaker 2: there perhaps would have been more definitely more injury, and

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Speaker 2: perhaps more may have died.

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Speaker 1: I'm told that the people who did escape, many of

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Speaker 1: them lived with tremendous guilt.

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Speaker 2: Oh if I could only just say to all of them,

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Speaker 2: you know, please don't be guilty. I'm so grateful that

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Speaker 2: you got out when you did. And I think in

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Speaker 2: high that was the smartest thing to do. I mean,

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Speaker 2: certainly Mum and I, you know, we talked about it afterwards,

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Speaker 2: but we were all just waiting because we assumed the

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Speaker 2: police were coming. So we're just waiting the police will come.

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Speaker 2: And so yes, those who took the initiative to run

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Speaker 2: to escape the way they did, that was the wisest

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Speaker 2: thing to do.

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Speaker 1: How did the gunman react every time he found out

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Speaker 1: people escaped, or did he not realize.

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Speaker 2: Well, he was very aware that the first three escaped. Originally,

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Speaker 2: like all of us, in that moment, he thought that

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Speaker 2: the police were coming in. And it was only the

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Speaker 2: quick thinking of young Jared Malton Hoffman who said that no, no,

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Speaker 2: they've escaped that we all suddenly went from like off

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Speaker 2: the Richter, you know, tension and you know, everything was

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Speaker 2: going nuts at the moment. In the moment, then he

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Speaker 2: just suddenly calmed down, realizing that that escaped and that

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Speaker 2: the police weren't coming. But what he didn't know was

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Speaker 2: that the other two young girls had quietly escaped, just

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Speaker 2: ever so quietly. It was amazing really, So he didn't

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Speaker 2: know that there were actually five that had escaped. He

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Speaker 2: only thought that three, three men had escaped. However, and

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Speaker 2: this is an important thing to be thinking about. On

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Speaker 2: the day, the media were reporting every hour on the

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Speaker 2: hour that five people had escaped. So we had to

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Speaker 2: calm him with that by saying things like, oh, you

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Speaker 2: know what the media is like, they just lie, they're exaggerating.

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Speaker 2: Only three people have escaped. Now, this was important for

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Speaker 2: us in the room because when those three first three

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Speaker 2: had escaped, he told us all that if anyone else escaped,

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Speaker 2: he'd kill someone. So we're all on high alert. In

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Speaker 2: a day that was already like ultra tense. That just

220
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Speaker 2: sort of added to the tension. So every time the

221
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Speaker 2: news reports were coming through, we had to calm him

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Speaker 2: down by just saying, you know, the media lie, but

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Speaker 2: they were reporting a fact as it was true. However,

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Speaker 2: it was impacting on us in the room, and if

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Speaker 2: he had kind of like figured it out, then we

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Speaker 2: could have really been in a dire situation.

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Speaker 1: The media had no idea that you had access or

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Speaker 1: did they, And how did you have access to media.

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Speaker 2: On everyone's phones? You know, we all have media in

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Speaker 2: our pockets now.

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Speaker 1: So he didn't take everyone's phone.

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Speaker 3: He did.

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Speaker 2: What he did was he asked us right up front

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Speaker 2: and he said, put your ID and your wallets and

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Speaker 2: your phones on the table in front of us, you know,

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Speaker 2: where we were all sitting. So we all did that.

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Speaker 2: So of course, but everyone had phones, and so as

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Speaker 2: the day went on and he progressively was trying to

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Speaker 2: get us to get him media attention, using our phones

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Speaker 2: become a thing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

242
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Speaker 2: So yeah, we all had you know, information all day,

243
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Speaker 2: and everything that was being reported was being reported into us.

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Speaker 2: So it's an interesting kind of thing for us to

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Speaker 2: think about, especially for the media. How do we address

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Speaker 2: this from a global situation. Whatever is being said in

247
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Speaker 2: the media will of course, we've just got to assume

248
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Speaker 2: that it does that we'll be impacting on a live situation.

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Speaker 2: For example, very late in the night early morning in London,

250
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Speaker 2: BBC were reporting on what was happening in Sydney. So

251
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Speaker 2: they were saying, we're listening to the report, and it

252
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Speaker 2: was one of those moments when the BBC London saying,

253
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Speaker 2: and we're watching live in Sydney the hostage situation there,

254
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Speaker 2: and we can see that the police are surrounding the cafe.

255
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Speaker 2: And I remember absolutely holding my breath because he thought

256
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Speaker 2: that there were no police. He really thought that there

257
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Speaker 2: were no police surrounding the cafe, that they're all off

258
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Speaker 2: at a distance, because that's what he's demanded being So

259
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Speaker 2: of course we're hearing that, and I could actually hear

260
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Speaker 2: my heart thumping in my chest because I knew that

261
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Speaker 2: if he realized that the police were surrounding the caf

262
00:14:05,765 --> 00:14:09,165
Speaker 2: from a report from London, the other side of the world,

263
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Speaker 2: that once again we're all at risk. Fortunately, and I

264
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Speaker 2: do not know how he missed it. It may have

265
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Speaker 2: been he didn't catch the lady's accent, or he didn't

266
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Speaker 2: he was fatiguing, or he was distracted somehow and he

267
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Speaker 2: did not hear that, and he did not react. But

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Speaker 2: it certainly put me on edge.

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Speaker 1: And mum, everybody, really, when did you first become aware

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Speaker 1: on that morning that it wasn't just a regular cup

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Speaker 1: of hot chocolate.

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Speaker 2: You know likes just such a strange circumstance. I was

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Speaker 2: actually I decided that, you know, it was time to go,

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Speaker 2: and I went to pay for our breakfast and the

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Speaker 2: young girl who was serving me I think it was April,

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Speaker 2: and she said she was just there taking my money,

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Speaker 2: and her mouth is a gast. I'm thinking, this young

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Speaker 2: girl is not paying attention, you know, but of course

279
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Speaker 2: I'm paying her. And she could see, you know, behind me,

280
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Speaker 2: and she could see him standing up, starting to make

281
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Speaker 2: his proclamation and putting his bandana on. And so by

282
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Speaker 2: the time I turned around to go back to sit down,

283
00:15:09,645 --> 00:15:12,485
Speaker 2: like I said, putting his bandanna on, and he's adjusting himself.

284
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Speaker 2: He's making his speech. He's saying, I want you to

285
00:15:15,405 --> 00:15:17,565
Speaker 2: know Australia is under attack and I want to speak

286
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Speaker 2: to the Prime Minister on national radio, and I've got

287
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Speaker 2: a bomb in my backpack, and I'm thinking in my head,

288
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Speaker 2: I actually thought, oh, this is ridiculous.

289
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Speaker 3: It's a joke.

290
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Speaker 2: You know, we're across the road from Channel seven. This

291
00:15:29,325 --> 00:15:32,605
Speaker 2: must be some sort of like perverted kind of candid camera.

292
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Speaker 2: But when he pulled out the gun, it was then

293
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Speaker 2: mea that I just like went, it's real. You know,

294
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Speaker 2: this is real. And of course you think in that moment, well,

295
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Speaker 2: this is a terrorist action, and what to terrorists do?

296
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Speaker 3: They kill you?

297
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Speaker 2: Right, You're dead. So it's just that oh adjustment of

298
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Speaker 2: your reality. You know, one minute I'm thinking about the

299
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Speaker 2: rest of our morning, and the next minute, right here,

300
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Speaker 2: right now, we're dead. But of course that wasn't what

301
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Speaker 2: he did.

302
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Speaker 1: Did people react in different ways.

303
00:16:03,245 --> 00:16:05,045
Speaker 2: I think we're all just a little bit stunned. And

304
00:16:05,085 --> 00:16:08,125
Speaker 2: everyone was very quiet and listening, trying to pay attention.

305
00:16:08,845 --> 00:16:13,645
Speaker 2: The gun himself was busy trying to articulate very clearly.

306
00:16:13,685 --> 00:16:16,405
Speaker 2: He was obviously aware of his accent and was trying

307
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Speaker 2: to articulate very clearly what his demands were and what

308
00:16:19,925 --> 00:16:22,845
Speaker 2: he was expecting of us. So we all just were

309
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Speaker 2: like in a state of shock. Really, so there was

310
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Speaker 2: no kind of screaming or anything like that.

311
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Speaker 1: It was just, yeah, did he sort of try to

312
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Speaker 1: organize you very quickly or did you organize yourselves?

313
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Speaker 2: No, he was well, he was instantly in control. Obviously

314
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Speaker 2: the gun, threat of bombs, all that kind of thing.

315
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Speaker 2: You know, the average Australian doesn't really have to do

316
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Speaker 2: with those things. So we were, you know, all trying

317
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Speaker 2: to work out how to do that. And of course

318
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Speaker 2: you must remember, apart from the staff, we were all

319
00:16:53,405 --> 00:16:59,365
Speaker 2: random strangers, so it was just that really bizarre sort

320
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Speaker 2: of circumstance. So we're all sort of listening, trying to

321
00:17:02,365 --> 00:17:06,045
Speaker 2: hear what he's saying, doing what he's telling us. You know,

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking, oh, he's going to line us up and

323
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Speaker 2: shoot us in my head. But of course, like obviously

324
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Speaker 2: he didn't do that, so he was quickly he started

325
00:17:13,325 --> 00:17:14,965
Speaker 2: to say things like keep your eyes closed, so it

326
00:17:15,045 --> 00:17:19,205
Speaker 2: was very controlling of everything. Close your eyes, open your eyes,

327
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Speaker 2: you stand here, you stand there. He quickly arranged people

328
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Speaker 2: around the room, had people stand up on the bench

329
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Speaker 2: seat and there in the cafe so that they could

330
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Speaker 2: be seen out the big windows, and people you know,

331
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Speaker 2: across the front, so it was pretty full on and

332
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Speaker 2: intense and the immediate sort of starting and then we waited.

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Speaker 1: Did he get the chance to talk amongst yourself. No,

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Speaker 1: he was very controlling of all of that for the

335
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Speaker 1: whole day.

336
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Speaker 2: Yes, so that kind of laxed a little when we

337
00:17:49,125 --> 00:17:51,605
Speaker 2: all got with the program, and that we all realized

338
00:17:51,645 --> 00:17:56,685
Speaker 2: that what he wanted was media attention, so therefore we

339
00:17:57,005 --> 00:18:01,525
Speaker 2: needed to be the ones to get that attention for him.

340
00:18:01,645 --> 00:18:05,845
Speaker 2: So we're all just then scrambling, you know. Initially at

341
00:18:05,885 --> 00:18:10,045
Speaker 2: one stage he had me ring triple O and he

342
00:18:10,205 --> 00:18:13,885
Speaker 2: was happy with his with the phone call and he said, oh,

343
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Speaker 2: you can be my secretary, I mean, like seriously. And

344
00:18:17,125 --> 00:18:19,845
Speaker 2: then then later on from that he told me to

345
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Speaker 2: find ABC Radio on the phone. Well, so technically challenged.

346
00:18:26,285 --> 00:18:28,445
Speaker 2: Not the best with the phone at the you know,

347
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Speaker 2: most times, but in particular because I had forgotten my

348
00:18:31,485 --> 00:18:33,765
Speaker 2: own phone that day and so it was my mother's

349
00:18:33,765 --> 00:18:37,605
Speaker 2: phone that was on the table, and so I'm trying

350
00:18:37,645 --> 00:18:40,685
Speaker 2: to scramble and find ABC Radio on the phone, and

351
00:18:40,725 --> 00:18:43,325
Speaker 2: I found ABC Radio book Club, but he wasn't interested

352
00:18:43,325 --> 00:18:46,245
Speaker 2: in the book club. So, you know, in that moment,

353
00:18:46,445 --> 00:18:49,405
Speaker 2: young Jared quickly said, I'll do it hand me the phone.

354
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Speaker 2: So when I handed over the phone to Jared, it

355
00:18:52,325 --> 00:18:56,165
Speaker 2: was like everything shifted and Jared very much become the

356
00:18:56,285 --> 00:19:00,965
Speaker 2: lead in the room. And so he quickly found radio

357
00:19:01,045 --> 00:19:03,045
Speaker 2: on the phone and did all that kind of thing,

358
00:19:03,085 --> 00:19:07,085
Speaker 2: and so the attention shifted very much to Jared, and

359
00:19:07,165 --> 00:19:11,805
Speaker 2: Jared become in a way like the man for the gunman.

360
00:19:12,245 --> 00:19:14,245
Speaker 2: So it was really interesting that dynamic, and I was

361
00:19:14,245 --> 00:19:16,925
Speaker 2: so grateful because you know, like technology is not really

362
00:19:16,925 --> 00:19:17,325
Speaker 2: my friend.

363
00:19:17,525 --> 00:19:17,965
Speaker 3: Pressure.

364
00:19:18,165 --> 00:19:22,285
Speaker 2: So Jared worked there, Yes, Jared young. Jared was one

365
00:19:22,285 --> 00:19:24,685
Speaker 2: of the young workers. He was nineteen at the time.

366
00:19:25,445 --> 00:19:28,005
Speaker 2: Many of them were only young, as was Fiona Marshall,

367
00:19:28,045 --> 00:19:33,645
Speaker 2: only nineteen. So you know, yeah, they're just well I

368
00:19:33,645 --> 00:19:35,405
Speaker 2: wouldn't like me to say it, but they're just babies,

369
00:19:35,445 --> 00:19:36,125
Speaker 2: you know what I mean.

370
00:19:36,365 --> 00:19:38,445
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you need a millennial to get that job.

371
00:19:38,685 --> 00:19:39,925
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. So they were there.

372
00:19:41,165 --> 00:19:43,445
Speaker 1: Could you communicate to each other with your eyes?

373
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Speaker 2: Well, obviously we were, but he was onto that. He

374
00:19:47,405 --> 00:19:50,125
Speaker 2: was quickly onto that, and he was saying, who's looking

375
00:19:50,125 --> 00:19:52,925
Speaker 2: at who? And certainly because once he realized that, you know,

376
00:19:53,045 --> 00:19:56,525
Speaker 2: Robin was my mother was totally separating us and no

377
00:19:57,085 --> 00:19:59,445
Speaker 2: talking with your eyes and if he thought someone was

378
00:19:59,485 --> 00:20:01,645
Speaker 2: looking too long at someone else, he was what are

379
00:20:01,645 --> 00:20:02,045
Speaker 2: you doing?

380
00:20:02,125 --> 00:20:02,365
Speaker 4: You know?

381
00:20:02,845 --> 00:20:06,205
Speaker 2: So he was certainly definitely in the early stages, he

382
00:20:06,325 --> 00:20:08,085
Speaker 2: was definitely onto all of that kind of thing.

383
00:20:08,685 --> 00:20:12,045
Speaker 1: The people then that escaped in little groups, how did

384
00:20:12,085 --> 00:20:13,045
Speaker 1: they coordinate that?

385
00:20:14,165 --> 00:20:18,445
Speaker 2: You know? I think that they were just quick And

386
00:20:17,845 --> 00:20:23,325
Speaker 2: the three men who escaped, initially they were sitting at

387
00:20:23,325 --> 00:20:26,765
Speaker 2: the front, they were lined up the front together on

388
00:20:27,085 --> 00:20:30,325
Speaker 2: individual seats, and so they obviously were able to have

389
00:20:30,405 --> 00:20:34,885
Speaker 2: little communications because their backs were to the inside of

390
00:20:34,885 --> 00:20:37,525
Speaker 2: the cafe and they were facing out near the front door.

391
00:20:37,685 --> 00:20:40,405
Speaker 2: So they're obviously able to have little communications together. And

392
00:20:40,445 --> 00:20:43,045
Speaker 2: they quickly organized how they're going to do it, and

393
00:20:43,085 --> 00:20:45,405
Speaker 2: they just did it. I mean, like how brave were they?

394
00:20:45,845 --> 00:20:49,925
Speaker 1: And so yeah, if you couldn't, I mean, you had

395
00:20:49,965 --> 00:20:52,925
Speaker 1: a lot of time to feel in your mind, did

396
00:20:52,965 --> 00:20:55,605
Speaker 1: you kind of try to work out who was who

397
00:20:55,765 --> 00:20:59,005
Speaker 1: and what their story was about.

398
00:20:59,445 --> 00:21:02,045
Speaker 2: We were all in our little groups, and so he

399
00:21:02,165 --> 00:21:07,125
Speaker 2: separated us out from our groups really and put everybody everywhere.

400
00:21:07,645 --> 00:21:11,205
Speaker 2: So that kind of like style build communication between us.

401
00:21:11,765 --> 00:21:12,285
Speaker 3: But as the.

402
00:21:12,325 --> 00:21:16,445
Speaker 2: Day went on, and also because we were having toilet breaks.

403
00:21:16,325 --> 00:21:17,925
Speaker 1: How did that work? I was going to ask about

404
00:21:17,965 --> 00:21:18,405
Speaker 1: the toilet.

405
00:21:18,765 --> 00:21:21,645
Speaker 2: Well, so thank goodness, you know, really, I mean one

406
00:21:21,685 --> 00:21:27,565
Speaker 2: could almost say inverted commas. That was a kindness that

407
00:21:27,645 --> 00:21:31,205
Speaker 2: worked because he just decided that we needed to and

408
00:21:31,245 --> 00:21:35,325
Speaker 2: I think really because it was obvious that because he

409
00:21:35,405 --> 00:21:38,725
Speaker 2: had kicked away my walking stick from me to start with,

410
00:21:39,285 --> 00:21:40,885
Speaker 2: and when it was time to go to the bathroom,

411
00:21:40,925 --> 00:21:42,405
Speaker 2: I said, can I have my walking stick?

412
00:21:42,485 --> 00:21:42,685
Speaker 4: No?

413
00:21:42,685 --> 00:21:46,805
Speaker 2: No, And then he said, Fiona, you take Louisa because

414
00:21:46,805 --> 00:21:49,245
Speaker 2: he worked out our names Louisa to the bathroom. So

415
00:21:49,285 --> 00:21:52,085
Speaker 2: Fiona took me to the bathroom and then we started

416
00:21:52,125 --> 00:21:56,485
Speaker 2: this whole routine of lint workers taking us to the bathroom,

417
00:21:56,525 --> 00:22:00,445
Speaker 2: predominantly Fiona or Jared, and so we were able to

418
00:22:00,485 --> 00:22:03,365
Speaker 2: communicate in that way as well. So they were kind

419
00:22:03,365 --> 00:22:05,365
Speaker 2: of like a conduit between us.

420
00:22:06,525 --> 00:22:08,525
Speaker 1: When we're going to it, would you whispered to them?

421
00:22:08,765 --> 00:22:11,165
Speaker 2: Yeahroom was you know, a little bit of a distance,

422
00:22:11,245 --> 00:22:15,805
Speaker 2: so there was a degree of privacy there. I feel like, gosh,

423
00:22:15,845 --> 00:22:18,925
Speaker 2: so weird, but yeah, that's how we were kind of

424
00:22:18,965 --> 00:22:20,645
Speaker 2: like talking to each other. But we didn't have any

425
00:22:20,725 --> 00:22:23,965
Speaker 2: kind of grand plan for escape or anything like that.

426
00:22:24,725 --> 00:22:26,805
Speaker 2: We were just kind of like, I think, going to

427
00:22:26,885 --> 00:22:31,045
Speaker 2: the bathroom and young Fiona, Ma, my goodness, he told

428
00:22:31,125 --> 00:22:33,325
Speaker 2: us all to give over our phones. Well she kept

429
00:22:33,325 --> 00:22:36,605
Speaker 2: hers in her pocket, brave as that little girl. And

430
00:22:36,645 --> 00:22:39,045
Speaker 2: you know, so when we got down to the bathroom,

431
00:22:39,085 --> 00:22:40,165
Speaker 2: she says, I've got my phone.

432
00:22:40,205 --> 00:22:41,085
Speaker 3: Do you want to ring anyone?

433
00:22:41,965 --> 00:22:42,205
Speaker 1: You know?

434
00:22:42,365 --> 00:22:45,525
Speaker 2: But I mean, who remembers anybody's phone number these days?

435
00:22:45,965 --> 00:22:47,645
Speaker 2: So I'm like, I'd love to, but I haven't got

436
00:22:47,685 --> 00:22:52,045
Speaker 2: clue anybody's number. So yeah, there you go, and that's

437
00:22:52,085 --> 00:22:52,805
Speaker 2: how the day went.

438
00:23:00,725 --> 00:23:04,845
Speaker 1: I was also told that people became agitated at different times,

439
00:23:05,125 --> 00:23:10,605
Speaker 1: and around the time of school pickup became quite agitated.

440
00:23:10,965 --> 00:23:13,805
Speaker 3: Is that true? Aware?

441
00:23:14,125 --> 00:23:16,765
Speaker 2: Like she was aware, and you know, different ones with

442
00:23:16,885 --> 00:23:19,525
Speaker 2: children were aware of their children, would mention their children,

443
00:23:19,965 --> 00:23:22,325
Speaker 2: you know, just different little things. I want to, you know,

444
00:23:22,365 --> 00:23:25,005
Speaker 2: and try and negotiate a bit with, you know, the gunment.

445
00:23:25,005 --> 00:23:26,885
Speaker 2: There was just constant talk about who was going to

446
00:23:26,925 --> 00:23:28,645
Speaker 2: get out and who was going to stay, you know,

447
00:23:28,685 --> 00:23:30,965
Speaker 2: and all that kind of thing. So yes, of course,

448
00:23:31,005 --> 00:23:34,405
Speaker 2: there was that whole awareness of people and their children,

449
00:23:34,605 --> 00:23:37,365
Speaker 2: and the stress of all of that, you know, just

450
00:23:38,045 --> 00:23:39,205
Speaker 2: made the whole thing worse.

451
00:23:39,285 --> 00:23:43,045
Speaker 1: I think did anything sway him. I mean, you were

452
00:23:44,525 --> 00:23:47,525
Speaker 1: you have ms and you had a cane, and then

453
00:23:49,005 --> 00:23:52,445
Speaker 1: you know, people had children, Julie was pregnant. There were

454
00:23:52,485 --> 00:23:55,885
Speaker 1: all sorts of different people with different reasons to be

455
00:23:56,005 --> 00:24:00,485
Speaker 1: allowed to go. Was everyone sort of looking for what

456
00:24:00,565 --> 00:24:03,645
Speaker 1: his vulnerabilities might be or what his kindnesses might be?

457
00:24:03,845 --> 00:24:07,125
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. You know, there was a lot of discussion.

458
00:24:07,125 --> 00:24:10,205
Speaker 2: At one stage, he said that he would really hostage

459
00:24:10,645 --> 00:24:14,365
Speaker 2: and which hostage would he release. So of course, you know,

460
00:24:14,565 --> 00:24:17,445
Speaker 2: naturally you would think in a circumstance like that, everyone

461
00:24:17,525 --> 00:24:20,125
Speaker 2: might be saying me me, pick me, putting up the hand,

462
00:24:20,205 --> 00:24:22,445
Speaker 2: saying I'll go, you know, let me release me. But

463
00:24:22,485 --> 00:24:27,325
Speaker 2: it wasn't like that. Actually, everyone was saying things like, well,

464
00:24:27,365 --> 00:24:31,205
Speaker 2: you should release Robin and Louisa because Robin's old, right,

465
00:24:31,965 --> 00:24:35,325
Speaker 2: and we're saying, no, no, you should release Julie because Julie's pregnant,

466
00:24:35,645 --> 00:24:38,485
Speaker 2: or Harriet who was pregnant at the time, And then

467
00:24:38,565 --> 00:24:40,485
Speaker 2: you know, he was saying, but who's going to be

468
00:24:40,525 --> 00:24:43,965
Speaker 2: my best spokesperson when they get out, and so you know,

469
00:24:44,445 --> 00:24:46,685
Speaker 2: then we're saying, well, like Jared, you know, he'd be

470
00:24:46,685 --> 00:24:48,725
Speaker 2: really good at that. So there was all those kind

471
00:24:48,765 --> 00:24:51,605
Speaker 2: of conversations, each of us trying to say you know,

472
00:24:52,285 --> 00:24:54,525
Speaker 2: release this one or that one, and particularly we're I

473
00:24:54,525 --> 00:24:57,365
Speaker 2: think we're all trying really to get the pregnant girls

474
00:24:57,365 --> 00:25:00,085
Speaker 2: out if we possibly could. But at the same time

475
00:25:00,125 --> 00:25:03,565
Speaker 2: it was obviously his choice. He was just messing with us, maybe,

476
00:25:03,805 --> 00:25:05,205
Speaker 2: you know. But there was a lot of coming and

477
00:25:05,245 --> 00:25:08,005
Speaker 2: going and discussion, and of course no one was released

478
00:25:08,045 --> 00:25:11,645
Speaker 2: by him in the end, because he wanted the media attention.

479
00:25:12,325 --> 00:25:15,205
Speaker 2: We wanted to be able to get a direct connection

480
00:25:15,325 --> 00:25:18,965
Speaker 2: to a media outlet so that he could say I'm

481
00:25:19,005 --> 00:25:22,565
Speaker 2: being so good and so kind by releasing somebody, and

482
00:25:22,605 --> 00:25:26,045
Speaker 2: he wanted to get the credit for that rather than oh,

483
00:25:26,365 --> 00:25:27,765
Speaker 2: he said, the media could just say.

484
00:25:27,565 --> 00:25:30,485
Speaker 3: They've escaped if I don't get.

485
00:25:30,285 --> 00:25:34,125
Speaker 2: Direct live coverage, So you know, that whole idea of

486
00:25:34,165 --> 00:25:38,805
Speaker 2: somebody being released. Eventually, when we realized we had exhausted

487
00:25:38,845 --> 00:25:43,045
Speaker 2: all opportunity for the media, it was like he said,

488
00:25:43,485 --> 00:25:45,965
Speaker 2: why should I bother because I won't get the credit

489
00:25:46,005 --> 00:25:49,205
Speaker 2: for it. The insanity of it.

490
00:25:49,525 --> 00:25:52,525
Speaker 1: Tell me about Toy Tory.

491
00:25:54,845 --> 00:25:58,645
Speaker 2: Tory was the manager of the cafe, and unlike everybody else,

492
00:25:58,925 --> 00:26:03,165
Speaker 2: he referred to to Toy as the manager, which of

493
00:26:03,165 --> 00:26:04,445
Speaker 2: course he was the manager.

494
00:26:05,445 --> 00:26:11,525
Speaker 3: And you know, this man who's still with me every day.

495
00:26:12,285 --> 00:26:17,725
Speaker 2: You know. He was very much highly regarded by his staff.

496
00:26:18,125 --> 00:26:21,525
Speaker 2: They really loved him, you know. But he on the

497
00:26:21,645 --> 00:26:27,925
Speaker 2: day he went on, he was aware that my mother

498
00:26:28,045 --> 00:26:31,285
Speaker 2: was becoming more and more agitated, which she was. She

499
00:26:31,445 --> 00:26:36,245
Speaker 2: was back chatting the gunman and I was she oh,

500
00:26:36,245 --> 00:26:38,245
Speaker 2: and I was becoming more and more anxious. What was

501
00:26:38,285 --> 00:26:41,005
Speaker 2: she doing, Robin, Well, she was, oh, dear mate, So

502
00:26:41,085 --> 00:26:41,605
Speaker 2: she was.

503
00:26:43,525 --> 00:26:43,845
Speaker 3: Well.

504
00:26:44,245 --> 00:26:47,085
Speaker 2: At one stage she stood up and hands on hips

505
00:26:47,085 --> 00:26:49,085
Speaker 2: and said, I want to go to the bathroom and

506
00:26:49,165 --> 00:26:53,245
Speaker 2: my daughter needs her medication. Oh, mom, just keep everything

507
00:26:53,285 --> 00:26:55,885
Speaker 2: on the down low, you know. I'm trying to mom,

508
00:26:56,245 --> 00:26:57,805
Speaker 2: you know. And you know when you hear your mother's

509
00:26:57,845 --> 00:27:00,405
Speaker 2: angry voice, I could hear it coming. I'm thinking, oh, man,

510
00:27:00,445 --> 00:27:03,885
Speaker 2: are you in trouble? Anyway, she just had that moment,

511
00:27:04,045 --> 00:27:07,565
Speaker 2: And so he sends her off to the bathroom with Fionna,

512
00:27:07,605 --> 00:27:10,205
Speaker 2: and then he wants to know all about my MS.

513
00:27:10,285 --> 00:27:10,885
Speaker 3: What's MS?

514
00:27:11,325 --> 00:27:13,325
Speaker 2: So yeah, so he calls me over sit next to him,

515
00:27:13,605 --> 00:27:16,445
Speaker 2: and he gives me twenty questions about what's the why

516
00:27:16,485 --> 00:27:17,765
Speaker 2: have you got MS? How do you get it?

517
00:27:17,845 --> 00:27:19,045
Speaker 3: What to do?

518
00:27:19,205 --> 00:27:23,085
Speaker 2: And I'm trying to explain very soundly and reasonably the

519
00:27:23,125 --> 00:27:25,725
Speaker 2: intricacies of MS, and I'm thinking, gosh, you know.

520
00:27:25,845 --> 00:27:29,245
Speaker 1: That's quite a human moment. It's accusing to you, Like,

521
00:27:29,285 --> 00:27:33,725
Speaker 1: I imagine that's confusing because he was showing interest and yeah, exact.

522
00:27:33,765 --> 00:27:36,445
Speaker 2: And this is the thing about this man, right, And

523
00:27:36,485 --> 00:27:38,525
Speaker 2: this is the thing that I keep coming back to

524
00:27:38,565 --> 00:27:41,125
Speaker 2: and I keep talking about, and that is the fact

525
00:27:41,125 --> 00:27:44,765
Speaker 2: that he was a bad man doing a bad thing.

526
00:27:45,125 --> 00:27:49,325
Speaker 2: What he was doing was just so wrong and violent,

527
00:27:49,965 --> 00:27:52,165
Speaker 2: a violent act to hold somebody against the will with

528
00:27:52,205 --> 00:27:55,485
Speaker 2: a gun. But at the same time, there were flashes

529
00:27:55,525 --> 00:27:59,885
Speaker 2: of his kindness and his humanity, So we kind of go,

530
00:27:59,965 --> 00:28:04,005
Speaker 2: what is that? Who is that? This duplicitous, double minded man.

531
00:28:04,405 --> 00:28:06,525
Speaker 2: Here he is letting us have toilet brakes and later

532
00:28:06,565 --> 00:28:10,525
Speaker 2: on cups of tea and food and uh, you know.

533
00:28:10,605 --> 00:28:12,365
Speaker 1: Water, inquiring about your health.

534
00:28:12,485 --> 00:28:16,205
Speaker 2: I know, exactly exactly, and he was sincerely interested.

535
00:28:16,605 --> 00:28:17,325
Speaker 3: I'm sure of that.

536
00:28:17,405 --> 00:28:19,445
Speaker 2: There was no need for him to kind of like

537
00:28:19,645 --> 00:28:21,445
Speaker 2: do a little deviation into his plan to have a

538
00:28:21,525 --> 00:28:24,605
Speaker 2: chat about my MS. And then you know, he's very

539
00:28:24,605 --> 00:28:26,925
Speaker 2: interested in it. And then he says to me, at

540
00:28:26,965 --> 00:28:29,885
Speaker 2: any time, Louisa, you want to have your medication, you

541
00:28:30,045 --> 00:28:31,205
Speaker 2: just do it. You don't have to.

542
00:28:31,125 --> 00:28:34,045
Speaker 3: Ask me, I thank you, thank you brother, you know.

543
00:28:34,245 --> 00:28:35,285
Speaker 3: But so here we go.

544
00:28:35,325 --> 00:28:40,365
Speaker 2: Here's this man explain, you know, expressing two different parts

545
00:28:40,365 --> 00:28:44,165
Speaker 2: of his personality, and you think, what is that? Double minded,

546
00:28:44,205 --> 00:28:46,685
Speaker 2: duplicitous and you sort of think to yourself, well, that's

547
00:28:46,725 --> 00:28:50,165
Speaker 2: that man who assaults his wife, bashes it to a pulp,

548
00:28:50,205 --> 00:28:53,485
Speaker 2: and then at the same time tells her he loves her. So,

549
00:28:53,605 --> 00:28:56,445
Speaker 2: you know, we think that we cannot imagine what a

550
00:28:56,525 --> 00:29:00,485
Speaker 2: terrorist is like, but we experience in our ordinary, everyday

551
00:29:00,525 --> 00:29:03,605
Speaker 2: life that kind of man or that kind of person.

552
00:29:04,285 --> 00:29:08,245
Speaker 2: So it's ay, and I say this because whilst ever

553
00:29:08,285 --> 00:29:11,965
Speaker 2: we throw our hands in there and say he's not us, we're.

554
00:29:11,725 --> 00:29:12,965
Speaker 1: Not that he's a madman.

555
00:29:13,085 --> 00:29:16,125
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, he's a madman. He's a lunatic, he's crazy.

556
00:29:16,565 --> 00:29:20,525
Speaker 2: Then what we're doing is actually surrendering our opportunity to

557
00:29:20,725 --> 00:29:24,285
Speaker 2: understand what this is all about. How does the violent

558
00:29:24,365 --> 00:29:27,325
Speaker 2: mind really work? And so for me personally, I kind

559
00:29:27,365 --> 00:29:29,405
Speaker 2: of have been on a little bit of a crusade

560
00:29:29,405 --> 00:29:33,685
Speaker 2: in saying we have to grab this circumstance and actually

561
00:29:34,045 --> 00:29:37,125
Speaker 2: get beyond our fear and start to do some real

562
00:29:37,205 --> 00:29:40,725
Speaker 2: research to come to real understanding, because it's only in

563
00:29:40,805 --> 00:29:43,045
Speaker 2: that that we're going to undo what this thing is.

564
00:29:43,685 --> 00:29:47,565
Speaker 2: And so you know, there we were in that circumstance

565
00:29:47,565 --> 00:29:52,125
Speaker 2: with him all those hours, and this was the reality

566
00:29:52,205 --> 00:29:54,485
Speaker 2: of him, no different to us in many ways.

567
00:29:55,725 --> 00:30:00,365
Speaker 1: Do you now see him as crazy? Mentally ill? Evil?

568
00:30:02,085 --> 00:30:04,165
Speaker 1: How do you see him?

569
00:30:07,125 --> 00:30:12,325
Speaker 2: All of those words are too easy. Actually, we need

570
00:30:12,405 --> 00:30:16,205
Speaker 2: a little bit more of nuanced kind of understanding of him.

571
00:30:16,485 --> 00:30:20,245
Speaker 2: And I see him as a very flawed human being

572
00:30:20,885 --> 00:30:26,325
Speaker 2: whose primary motivator was his own self delusion and his

573
00:30:28,525 --> 00:30:33,685
Speaker 2: narcissistic frame of obviously his existence, because you know, there's

574
00:30:33,685 --> 00:30:36,445
Speaker 2: lots of other things in this man's history. I mean,

575
00:30:36,605 --> 00:30:39,325
Speaker 2: at the inquest, we found out that he had forty

576
00:30:39,405 --> 00:30:44,165
Speaker 2: eight separate individual sexual assault charges against him, and of

577
00:30:44,205 --> 00:30:46,405
Speaker 2: course there was his involvement in the death of his

578
00:30:47,125 --> 00:30:52,045
Speaker 2: ex wife, which was horrendous. And so you know, the

579
00:30:52,085 --> 00:30:56,645
Speaker 2: man was one could very easily call him evil, but

580
00:30:56,685 --> 00:30:59,925
Speaker 2: that was not the only cloak that he wore. So

581
00:30:59,965 --> 00:31:03,245
Speaker 2: we have to get in and nutted out to see

582
00:31:03,285 --> 00:31:09,685
Speaker 2: what he really is. You know, yes, even madman can

583
00:31:09,765 --> 00:31:13,805
Speaker 2: be sane and to sort of box and die somebody

584
00:31:13,925 --> 00:31:19,605
Speaker 2: into a little hole like that too simple and of

585
00:31:19,725 --> 00:31:20,605
Speaker 2: no value to us.

586
00:31:20,725 --> 00:31:24,445
Speaker 1: Now so there he was asked inquiring about your mss.

587
00:31:25,045 --> 00:31:27,885
Speaker 1: Your mama demanded to be taken to the bathroom. And

588
00:31:27,925 --> 00:31:29,325
Speaker 1: where was Tory through all of this.

589
00:31:29,485 --> 00:31:32,445
Speaker 2: Well, Tory he had placed mostly the women around him

590
00:31:32,445 --> 00:31:35,765
Speaker 2: close and all the men at a bit of a distance.

591
00:31:36,365 --> 00:31:39,165
Speaker 1: So as so to use the women as human shields

592
00:31:39,205 --> 00:31:41,325
Speaker 1: because he felt that there was less likely to be

593
00:31:41,485 --> 00:31:42,765
Speaker 1: someone firing through the window.

594
00:31:42,925 --> 00:31:43,925
Speaker 3: Yeah, well you know that.

595
00:31:44,045 --> 00:31:47,405
Speaker 2: And also women he was assuming, obviously, and obviously the

596
00:31:47,445 --> 00:31:49,885
Speaker 2: way he's dealt with women, he was probably feeling more

597
00:31:49,925 --> 00:31:52,885
Speaker 2: confident that he could keep control of us. So anyway,

598
00:31:54,285 --> 00:31:57,005
Speaker 2: Mama had you know, a few bit of backchat towards him.

599
00:31:57,045 --> 00:31:59,285
Speaker 2: And then as a day went on, a little bit later,

600
00:31:59,405 --> 00:32:02,085
Speaker 2: Tory had gone for bathroom break and he came back,

601
00:32:02,405 --> 00:32:05,045
Speaker 2: and normally we came back and sat back in normal

602
00:32:05,085 --> 00:32:08,725
Speaker 2: seats where we were last seated, but Tory actually come

603
00:32:08,765 --> 00:32:13,285
Speaker 2: back and positioned himself sitting right next to Mom. And

604
00:32:13,445 --> 00:32:16,805
Speaker 2: what happened then was that they were sitting on the

605
00:32:17,205 --> 00:32:19,365
Speaker 2: seated on the bench seat with a table in front

606
00:32:19,405 --> 00:32:22,685
Speaker 2: of them, and I was on an individual seat separated

607
00:32:22,805 --> 00:32:28,565
Speaker 2: slightly from them. But where he positioned himself next to Mom,

608
00:32:28,685 --> 00:32:32,685
Speaker 2: I could hear them just quietly whispering, having little jokes.

609
00:32:32,685 --> 00:32:36,445
Speaker 2: I could hear little giggles, and when I had got

610
00:32:36,445 --> 00:32:39,125
Speaker 2: another bathroom break myself come back, I could see them

611
00:32:39,165 --> 00:32:43,165
Speaker 2: holding hands under the table. So Tory had used that

612
00:32:43,845 --> 00:32:47,965
Speaker 2: as an opportunity to sit next and position himself next

613
00:32:47,965 --> 00:32:51,525
Speaker 2: to my mother to calm her. And I could see

614
00:32:51,565 --> 00:32:55,605
Speaker 2: that that worked because Mum was far better because it

615
00:32:56,205 --> 00:32:59,885
Speaker 2: was one stage when the gunman actually said to me, Louisa,

616
00:33:00,365 --> 00:33:03,365
Speaker 2: keep your mother quiet, and in the moment, I thought,

617
00:33:03,405 --> 00:33:05,565
Speaker 2: you're crazy. How am I going to do that? Keep

618
00:33:05,605 --> 00:33:08,005
Speaker 2: my mother quiet and ask for a daughter? Yeah, exactly,

619
00:33:08,125 --> 00:33:09,605
Speaker 2: And so you know, like I hear, I am a

620
00:33:09,645 --> 00:33:11,845
Speaker 2: growing up. But I had that moment where I had

621
00:33:11,845 --> 00:33:14,565
Speaker 2: to say to mom, Mum, you know you're an old lady,

622
00:33:15,045 --> 00:33:17,445
Speaker 2: just keep quiet. And I could see her looking at me,

623
00:33:17,525 --> 00:33:19,765
Speaker 2: and I'm thinking, you know, she's kind of like, wait

624
00:33:19,845 --> 00:33:21,765
Speaker 2: till you get home. You're in big trouble kind of thing,

625
00:33:21,765 --> 00:33:23,445
Speaker 2: and I'm just sort of thinking, we've got it. But

626
00:33:23,525 --> 00:33:25,525
Speaker 2: I knew that we just had to keep her calm.

627
00:33:25,925 --> 00:33:29,245
Speaker 2: And Tory obviously read that too, because he come back

628
00:33:29,285 --> 00:33:32,165
Speaker 2: after that, and like I said, he positioned himself next

629
00:33:32,205 --> 00:33:38,165
Speaker 2: to her, and of course at the end, at the end,

630
00:33:38,205 --> 00:33:43,125
Speaker 2: when everyone else escapes, and I had had my eyes closed.

631
00:33:43,125 --> 00:33:46,325
Speaker 2: I was in this intense place of prayer actually, and

632
00:33:46,685 --> 00:33:49,165
Speaker 2: then I'd heard this big bang and I'd opened my

633
00:33:49,205 --> 00:33:52,885
Speaker 2: eyes and all of the others that escaped, all the

634
00:33:52,925 --> 00:33:55,485
Speaker 2: other hostages, and I went, all, right, this is it.

635
00:33:55,525 --> 00:33:56,045
Speaker 3: We're going.

636
00:33:56,325 --> 00:33:58,205
Speaker 2: So I stood up and I started to go towards

637
00:33:58,285 --> 00:34:03,845
Speaker 2: the door, but Mum and Tory were not moving, and

638
00:34:03,965 --> 00:34:06,005
Speaker 2: I was trying to catch their eye, kept turning around,

639
00:34:06,045 --> 00:34:07,765
Speaker 2: you know, not wanting to speak because I didn't know

640
00:34:07,765 --> 00:34:10,205
Speaker 2: where the gunman was, didn't know what was happening with him.

641
00:34:11,325 --> 00:34:13,805
Speaker 2: So I'm kind of trying to indicate to them, come come,

642
00:34:13,845 --> 00:34:16,525
Speaker 2: you know, we're right at the end now, and I'm

643
00:34:16,525 --> 00:34:18,925
Speaker 2: trying to get their attention, but they weren't moving. I'm thinking,

644
00:34:19,205 --> 00:34:22,005
Speaker 2: why isn't Tory moving, Why isn't Mum moving? They're just

645
00:34:22,165 --> 00:34:25,325
Speaker 2: not shifting, And so in that moment, I just thought, well,

646
00:34:25,365 --> 00:34:27,445
Speaker 2: I can't leave my mother. So I lay down on

647
00:34:27,445 --> 00:34:29,365
Speaker 2: the floor and thought, oh, you know, the government will

648
00:34:29,445 --> 00:34:33,565
Speaker 2: kill me. But and then that situation went on. But

649
00:34:34,405 --> 00:34:43,165
Speaker 2: later after, after twelve months, later, after the first anniversary,

650
00:34:43,365 --> 00:34:45,285
Speaker 2: Mom and I were having a quiet moment at home,

651
00:34:46,645 --> 00:34:49,645
Speaker 2: and I said to her, mom, do you remember at

652
00:34:49,645 --> 00:34:52,965
Speaker 2: the end, And I got up and was going towards

653
00:34:53,005 --> 00:34:55,805
Speaker 2: the door. I said to her, why didn't you and

654
00:34:55,885 --> 00:35:00,765
Speaker 2: Tory run? Because I could never understand why Toy didn't run.

655
00:35:01,405 --> 00:35:04,605
Speaker 2: And my mom said to me, oh, well, I was

656
00:35:04,645 --> 00:35:07,205
Speaker 2: saying to Toy, you know, you go, you go, and

657
00:35:07,245 --> 00:35:09,245
Speaker 2: she's making this motion. She was like she was ill,

658
00:35:09,325 --> 00:35:11,245
Speaker 2: bowing him in the side, saying you go to it,

659
00:35:11,365 --> 00:35:14,885
Speaker 2: you go, and he said to her, no, I'll stay,

660
00:35:15,405 --> 00:35:19,365
Speaker 2: I'll stay with you. So in that moment, twelve months

661
00:35:19,445 --> 00:35:24,205
Speaker 2: after the event, I suddenly realized that Tory Johnson had

662
00:35:24,245 --> 00:35:28,325
Speaker 2: made a deliberate choice to stay, to stay and look

663
00:35:28,365 --> 00:35:33,445
Speaker 2: after my mother, which you know is for our whole family.

664
00:35:33,605 --> 00:35:34,085
Speaker 3: That is.

665
00:35:35,685 --> 00:35:41,965
Speaker 2: Profound, and I understand the grief that his family must

666
00:35:41,965 --> 00:35:47,845
Speaker 2: feel that his brave heart made that choice in that moment, ah,

667
00:35:47,845 --> 00:35:51,205
Speaker 2: because if he had not, he would not have been

668
00:35:51,285 --> 00:35:54,845
Speaker 2: there to be the one who was killed. So, you know,

669
00:35:54,925 --> 00:36:01,685
Speaker 2: it's just, you know, it's hard, and I feel for

670
00:36:01,805 --> 00:36:05,205
Speaker 2: his family. But I think to myself, what an amazing

671
00:36:05,845 --> 00:36:10,685
Speaker 2: brave young man. And you know, his his parents, his

672
00:36:10,845 --> 00:36:16,845
Speaker 2: mother and of course his partner Thomas. His bravery doesn't

673
00:36:16,845 --> 00:36:21,685
Speaker 2: replace him for them. But you know, our family, we

674
00:36:21,725 --> 00:36:26,565
Speaker 2: are forever grateful because in lots of ways, you know,

675
00:36:26,645 --> 00:36:29,045
Speaker 2: that gave us three and a half more years with

676
00:36:29,125 --> 00:36:35,885
Speaker 2: our mother and m It's you know, it's in my heart.

677
00:36:38,165 --> 00:36:41,645
Speaker 1: Why do you think that the gunman chose Toy Because

678
00:36:41,685 --> 00:36:45,725
Speaker 1: Tory was the last man in the cafe and he

679
00:36:46,005 --> 00:36:47,525
Speaker 1: was the final authority figure.

680
00:36:48,525 --> 00:36:52,085
Speaker 2: So he called Tory to. You know, he positioned Mum

681
00:36:52,085 --> 00:36:55,205
Speaker 2: and I either side of him and told us to

682
00:36:55,285 --> 00:36:57,205
Speaker 2: keep our eyes closed and we wouldn't get hurt. How

683
00:36:57,245 --> 00:36:59,445
Speaker 2: many ridiculous really is if you do that? But then

684
00:36:59,445 --> 00:37:00,565
Speaker 2: he called Tory over.

685
00:37:00,725 --> 00:37:03,245
Speaker 1: You mean, as if you'd keep your eyes So you

686
00:37:03,285 --> 00:37:04,405
Speaker 1: didn't keep your eyes.

687
00:37:04,165 --> 00:37:06,885
Speaker 2: No, it's dark in the cafe and we're either side

688
00:37:06,925 --> 00:37:09,245
Speaker 2: of him, Mum and I. And then he called Toy

689
00:37:09,405 --> 00:37:12,085
Speaker 2: over and said you manager, kneel on the floor and

690
00:37:12,125 --> 00:37:13,485
Speaker 2: put your hands on your head. And it was just

691
00:37:14,245 --> 00:37:15,725
Speaker 2: that moment of oh my god.

692
00:37:16,005 --> 00:37:19,005
Speaker 1: You know, I don't want to ask you to relive

693
00:37:19,045 --> 00:37:21,885
Speaker 1: that moment, but lais, how do you get over any

694
00:37:21,925 --> 00:37:23,885
Speaker 1: of this? Like I look at you sitting in front

695
00:37:23,885 --> 00:37:27,005
Speaker 1: of me, and I know people go to war and

696
00:37:27,005 --> 00:37:31,005
Speaker 1: that's essentially what you did. How do you do it?

697
00:37:31,085 --> 00:37:31,845
Speaker 1: How do you recover?

698
00:37:34,445 --> 00:37:39,045
Speaker 2: Everyone's experience is different, and trauma and we talk about

699
00:37:39,085 --> 00:37:42,725
Speaker 2: post traumatic stress, and you know, trauma is a really

700
00:37:43,965 --> 00:37:49,205
Speaker 2: bizarre kind of thing. And for me personally, I think

701
00:37:49,245 --> 00:37:53,645
Speaker 2: that this is my experience. Mum's experience was very different.

702
00:37:54,325 --> 00:38:01,805
Speaker 2: But for me, I went into a place of post trauma,

703
00:38:02,045 --> 00:38:05,405
Speaker 2: like I was so overwhelmed with the gratitude, so grateful

704
00:38:05,525 --> 00:38:08,725
Speaker 2: that I'd been spared in that moment, so grateful that

705
00:38:08,765 --> 00:38:11,845
Speaker 2: there was a few future, and so grateful you know,

706
00:38:11,925 --> 00:38:14,725
Speaker 2: Mum was still alive and you know, and also that

707
00:38:15,325 --> 00:38:17,685
Speaker 2: I could have a refocus, and I just had that

708
00:38:17,765 --> 00:38:20,565
Speaker 2: determination that we were going to get something good out

709
00:38:20,565 --> 00:38:25,685
Speaker 2: of that awful situation. So for me, I feel in

710
00:38:25,765 --> 00:38:29,765
Speaker 2: hindsight now that I went into a kind of post

711
00:38:29,805 --> 00:38:36,685
Speaker 2: euphoria and that pushed me forward. And that, of course,

712
00:38:36,925 --> 00:38:41,045
Speaker 2: I have to say, comes from you know, my practice,

713
00:38:41,085 --> 00:38:43,925
Speaker 2: my practice of prayer, my practice of faith, and all

714
00:38:43,925 --> 00:38:46,565
Speaker 2: those things that were already in my life and were

715
00:38:46,605 --> 00:38:50,925
Speaker 2: part of you know, my inner life, and so all

716
00:38:50,965 --> 00:38:56,725
Speaker 2: of those things built into that. But at the same time,

717
00:38:56,885 --> 00:39:00,365
Speaker 2: and equally as potent, I have to say, is the

718
00:39:00,525 --> 00:39:05,245
Speaker 2: overwhelming anxiety. Now, this is really interesting how we think

719
00:39:05,285 --> 00:39:09,805
Speaker 2: about anxiety. But for me, I understood how I felt

720
00:39:09,965 --> 00:39:13,485
Speaker 2: immediately in those final moments. And when I say the

721
00:39:13,525 --> 00:39:17,925
Speaker 2: adrenaline was dripping out of me physically, I could feel

722
00:39:17,965 --> 00:39:21,765
Speaker 2: like my entire body was engaged in the adrenaline and

723
00:39:21,805 --> 00:39:24,685
Speaker 2: I could feel it and I was just maxed out,

724
00:39:24,725 --> 00:39:26,965
Speaker 2: there's no other way to describe it. Maxed out. And

725
00:39:26,965 --> 00:39:31,285
Speaker 2: it was almost like my brain was expanding. And so

726
00:39:31,765 --> 00:39:35,565
Speaker 2: what happens for me now, five years later, still I

727
00:39:35,605 --> 00:39:38,965
Speaker 2: can find that I can I can be some sort

728
00:39:39,005 --> 00:39:41,245
Speaker 2: of circumstance. It could be traffic, or it could be

729
00:39:42,405 --> 00:39:48,525
Speaker 2: any little moment, no random reason. But anxiety comes instantly

730
00:39:48,645 --> 00:39:52,885
Speaker 2: from like zero to one hundred in an instant, and

731
00:39:52,965 --> 00:39:55,445
Speaker 2: I can recognize it's in my body and I go, yes,

732
00:39:55,525 --> 00:39:58,125
Speaker 2: I know my body has gone from zero to one

733
00:39:58,165 --> 00:40:02,845
Speaker 2: hundred to one thousand to flight exactly right there. It's

734
00:40:02,845 --> 00:40:05,965
Speaker 2: the same feeling that I experienced in that moment at

735
00:40:06,005 --> 00:40:08,725
Speaker 2: the end, and I haven't worked out how to turn

736
00:40:08,765 --> 00:40:11,765
Speaker 2: it off yet, but I have worked out how to

737
00:40:12,165 --> 00:40:17,245
Speaker 2: steal my heart and just control myself as opposed to Okay,

738
00:40:17,605 --> 00:40:21,245
Speaker 2: I'm here, and then I'm there, and some days I

739
00:40:21,285 --> 00:40:23,125
Speaker 2: can be good at it, and some days I'm not

740
00:40:23,165 --> 00:40:25,965
Speaker 2: so good at it, And I'm very blessed because I'm

741
00:40:26,005 --> 00:40:29,525
Speaker 2: surrounded by a family who understand and friends who are

742
00:40:30,085 --> 00:40:32,685
Speaker 2: under control. And sometimes it's a moment where a friend

743
00:40:32,685 --> 00:40:34,525
Speaker 2: will sit and just have a little quiet sit and

744
00:40:34,565 --> 00:40:37,245
Speaker 2: will have a prey. And sometimes it's a moment where

745
00:40:37,285 --> 00:40:41,925
Speaker 2: I go into a meditative state or you just do

746
00:40:42,045 --> 00:40:45,805
Speaker 2: the breathing that's associated with calming myself. There's all little

747
00:40:45,805 --> 00:40:48,405
Speaker 2: tricks that you can use for that, but it's very real.

748
00:40:48,885 --> 00:40:53,205
Speaker 2: The thing is, anxiety knows no level in that. So

749
00:40:53,325 --> 00:40:56,125
Speaker 2: I had an experience that was pretty tense and out there.

750
00:40:56,645 --> 00:41:00,285
Speaker 2: But you know, anxiety is the same for the woman

751
00:41:00,285 --> 00:41:02,765
Speaker 2: who's just been assaulted in her own home, or for

752
00:41:02,845 --> 00:41:05,885
Speaker 2: somebody who's facing a traffic accident or somebody who's having

753
00:41:05,925 --> 00:41:09,605
Speaker 2: a stroke. Anxiety is no respector of persons, and we

754
00:41:09,725 --> 00:41:13,845
Speaker 2: all experience it in our own individual way, but the same.

755
00:41:14,405 --> 00:41:17,005
Speaker 2: So you know, if someone tells me they've got anxiety,

756
00:41:17,285 --> 00:41:19,805
Speaker 2: I can really relate. And it doesn't matter what caused,

757
00:41:19,845 --> 00:41:22,565
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter, it's all the same. So, you know,

758
00:41:22,645 --> 00:41:25,405
Speaker 2: we need to be kind to each other. Sometimes you know,

759
00:41:25,485 --> 00:41:27,805
Speaker 2: because we don't know what someone else is going through.

760
00:41:28,485 --> 00:41:30,965
Speaker 1: There's something that happens. I always assume that anyone who

761
00:41:31,005 --> 00:41:35,965
Speaker 1: experiences a tragedy has post traumatic stress and post traumatic syndrome.

762
00:41:37,725 --> 00:41:41,445
Speaker 1: But I learned through reading Lee Sales's book that and

763
00:41:41,685 --> 00:41:45,365
Speaker 1: actually through people that I know, not everyone has that.

764
00:41:45,725 --> 00:41:49,165
Speaker 1: Some people have post traumatic growth, which is a little

765
00:41:49,205 --> 00:41:52,765
Speaker 1: bit like the euphoria is probably a different stage, but

766
00:41:52,885 --> 00:41:56,245
Speaker 1: the post traumatic growth is when my friend who had

767
00:41:56,285 --> 00:41:58,605
Speaker 1: a stillborn baby described it to me as that the

768
00:41:58,645 --> 00:42:01,525
Speaker 1: death of her daughter turned the light up in her life,

769
00:42:01,605 --> 00:42:06,645
Speaker 1: not down, and she didn't expect that. Would you say

770
00:42:06,645 --> 00:42:09,205
Speaker 1: that that's been what this experience has done to you?

771
00:42:09,445 --> 00:42:11,285
Speaker 1: You has it turned the light up in your life?

772
00:42:11,845 --> 00:42:12,765
Speaker 2: God bless your friend.

773
00:42:12,805 --> 00:42:12,965
Speaker 1: You know.

774
00:42:13,045 --> 00:42:16,005
Speaker 2: That is such a beautiful way to express that, And

775
00:42:16,045 --> 00:42:18,805
Speaker 2: that's really exactly how it really feels.

776
00:42:19,805 --> 00:42:20,485
Speaker 3: I have found that.

777
00:42:20,525 --> 00:42:24,845
Speaker 2: I found that for me, I felt like I expanded

778
00:42:25,605 --> 00:42:28,485
Speaker 2: as a human, as a person, so that my capacity

779
00:42:28,685 --> 00:42:33,645
Speaker 2: was more. So, you know, I equally feel that expansion

780
00:42:33,805 --> 00:42:38,165
Speaker 2: of self and my capacity to cope with more in

781
00:42:38,245 --> 00:42:42,765
Speaker 2: many ways coupled with the balancing effect of oh yeah,

782
00:42:42,805 --> 00:42:51,005
Speaker 2: all that random anxiety and distress and pressure, so it's

783
00:42:51,605 --> 00:42:54,405
Speaker 2: very finely tuned and needs to be very finely balanced.

784
00:42:54,805 --> 00:42:58,045
Speaker 2: But if I look forward and focus myself that way,

785
00:42:58,605 --> 00:43:02,685
Speaker 2: it very much is about that. So now I feel like, Okay,

786
00:43:02,725 --> 00:43:07,725
Speaker 2: what else is out there that we need to fix? Change, grow, evolve?

787
00:43:08,125 --> 00:43:11,445
Speaker 2: What other other things need to be looked at post siege?

788
00:43:11,565 --> 00:43:14,725
Speaker 2: That business that we need to do as a society,

789
00:43:14,805 --> 00:43:19,325
Speaker 2: within our institutions, and of course for me as well

790
00:43:19,325 --> 00:43:22,005
Speaker 2: being involved with the nurses. So you know, it's just

791
00:43:23,325 --> 00:43:26,205
Speaker 2: I feel like there's no there's no place to say

792
00:43:26,285 --> 00:43:28,845
Speaker 2: no anymore. We just got to go forward.

793
00:43:29,405 --> 00:43:32,365
Speaker 1: You started a foundation, oh to help nurses. Tell me

794
00:43:32,405 --> 00:43:34,565
Speaker 1: about your time in hospital after the scene? Wow?

795
00:43:34,725 --> 00:43:36,405
Speaker 2: Well hospital, okay.

796
00:43:36,525 --> 00:43:39,245
Speaker 1: You were there for a long time. It just was

797
00:43:39,405 --> 00:43:42,845
Speaker 1: full on seems unfair after what you went through.

798
00:43:42,965 --> 00:43:44,685
Speaker 2: I know it was that kind of you just don't

799
00:43:44,685 --> 00:43:48,485
Speaker 2: imagine that, you know, Like seriously, I thought, okay, well

800
00:43:48,485 --> 00:43:50,125
Speaker 2: once I because really I thought I was going to

801
00:43:50,205 --> 00:43:52,045
Speaker 2: lose my foot. I really had that moment. We had

802
00:43:52,045 --> 00:43:54,485
Speaker 2: a hole in it it certainly, did you know. And

803
00:43:54,525 --> 00:43:56,525
Speaker 2: what did it look like when I looked at it? Well,

804
00:43:56,565 --> 00:43:58,485
Speaker 2: you know, it was pretty when it was first done,

805
00:43:58,485 --> 00:44:00,965
Speaker 2: it was just like horrendous, like I used to get

806
00:44:00,965 --> 00:44:03,285
Speaker 2: in a little state of shock whenever they redressed the wound,

807
00:44:03,605 --> 00:44:05,685
Speaker 2: because it was just the shock of seeing it, you know.

808
00:44:06,925 --> 00:44:09,045
Speaker 2: But of course now it looks now, it looks like

809
00:44:09,125 --> 00:44:12,365
Speaker 2: I describe it as someone's got the barmacs.

810
00:44:11,885 --> 00:44:13,405
Speaker 3: And gone on my foot.

811
00:44:13,405 --> 00:44:16,645
Speaker 2: It's just it's a classic honeycome wound and it's some

812
00:44:17,245 --> 00:44:20,565
Speaker 2: messy just to say the least. But you know, three

813
00:44:20,605 --> 00:44:22,725
Speaker 2: months in hospital was not what I expected. I thought

814
00:44:22,725 --> 00:44:25,125
Speaker 2: i'd be there two weeks, you know, by the time Chris,

815
00:44:25,125 --> 00:44:26,405
Speaker 2: I'll be out, and I thought it'd be out for

816
00:44:26,485 --> 00:44:29,045
Speaker 2: New Year Christmas. That didn't happen, and it just kind

817
00:44:29,045 --> 00:44:29,605
Speaker 2: of extended.

818
00:44:29,605 --> 00:44:30,125
Speaker 3: It extends.

819
00:44:30,125 --> 00:44:32,125
Speaker 1: You needed operations, reconstruction.

820
00:44:32,245 --> 00:44:34,885
Speaker 2: That's why I had three surgeries and then and then

821
00:44:34,885 --> 00:44:37,845
Speaker 2: of course rehabilitation, and so I went from Prince of

822
00:44:37,845 --> 00:44:40,245
Speaker 2: Wales to a private hospital in the Eastern suburbs and

823
00:44:40,725 --> 00:44:44,125
Speaker 2: so that was a long time in hospital. But that

824
00:44:44,245 --> 00:44:48,845
Speaker 2: time gave me well, really, you don't think about it

825
00:44:48,885 --> 00:44:51,445
Speaker 2: in the moment, but in hindsight I realized it was

826
00:44:51,445 --> 00:44:54,885
Speaker 2: like a blessing because it insulated me from the world

827
00:44:54,925 --> 00:45:00,125
Speaker 2: immediately after the siege, and it gave me time for

828
00:45:01,485 --> 00:45:07,285
Speaker 2: reflection and to think forward. And also my experience with

829
00:45:07,325 --> 00:45:10,805
Speaker 2: the nurses then sent me on that journey. And so

830
00:45:11,045 --> 00:45:14,325
Speaker 2: when sixty Minutes we're discussing, you know, if we're going

831
00:45:14,365 --> 00:45:16,565
Speaker 2: to talk to them, And like my mother and I

832
00:45:16,605 --> 00:45:19,205
Speaker 2: knew from the go get that we would have to

833
00:45:19,205 --> 00:45:22,885
Speaker 2: share with everyone because we knew that if we'd been

834
00:45:22,885 --> 00:45:24,725
Speaker 2: on the outside, we would have wanted to know what

835
00:45:24,765 --> 00:45:27,725
Speaker 2: happened to the people on the inside. So we understood that.

836
00:45:28,125 --> 00:45:33,205
Speaker 2: And also because I personally felt that we were all

837
00:45:33,245 --> 00:45:35,245
Speaker 2: part of what happened that day, like this was not

838
00:45:35,285 --> 00:45:37,405
Speaker 2: something that happened to just me and my mother and my

839
00:45:37,445 --> 00:45:40,085
Speaker 2: fellow hostages. It happened to the whole country, so we

840
00:45:40,165 --> 00:45:44,845
Speaker 2: had to be accountable for that. So anyway, when sixty

841
00:45:44,845 --> 00:45:47,445
Speaker 2: Minutes generously gave me that twenty five thousand dollars and

842
00:45:47,885 --> 00:45:51,085
Speaker 2: Mike bed matched that money, had a little fifty grand

843
00:45:51,125 --> 00:45:53,605
Speaker 2: in my hand, and I kind of thought, right, I

844
00:45:53,685 --> 00:45:55,085
Speaker 2: know what I wanted to do with it, because I

845
00:45:55,165 --> 00:45:57,845
Speaker 2: was going to do a little I thought originally that

846
00:45:57,925 --> 00:46:00,285
Speaker 2: I just do a little fundraiser for the nurses within

847
00:46:00,325 --> 00:46:02,525
Speaker 2: my own community, and we get a few grand and

848
00:46:02,525 --> 00:46:04,565
Speaker 2: I give it to the nurses on my ward. But

849
00:46:04,645 --> 00:46:07,965
Speaker 2: fifty grand was a whole lot more money. And so

850
00:46:08,325 --> 00:46:11,365
Speaker 2: I went to the foundation at Prince of Wales and

851
00:46:11,405 --> 00:46:16,565
Speaker 2: the Lulu Salapa, who was the CEO there, brilliant, amazing.

852
00:46:16,845 --> 00:46:19,405
Speaker 2: That foundation runs like a machine, I've got to tell you.

853
00:46:19,885 --> 00:46:21,765
Speaker 2: So of course, Lulu had been a nurse in a

854
00:46:21,765 --> 00:46:24,965
Speaker 2: previous life, and so she knew exactly what I was

855
00:46:25,005 --> 00:46:27,005
Speaker 2: saying when I said I don't want this to go

856
00:46:27,085 --> 00:46:28,845
Speaker 2: for a carpet or for a new paint in the

857
00:46:28,845 --> 00:46:31,045
Speaker 2: hospital or anything, or in the boardroom or anything. I

858
00:46:31,045 --> 00:46:34,405
Speaker 2: wanted to be for nurse initiated projects. And she absolutely

859
00:46:34,445 --> 00:46:37,765
Speaker 2: got that. She knew exactly how to create that make

860
00:46:37,845 --> 00:46:40,005
Speaker 2: it happen, and so that's what happened. And of course

861
00:46:40,045 --> 00:46:42,405
Speaker 2: once I started to see what the nurses were doing

862
00:46:42,445 --> 00:46:45,685
Speaker 2: with the money, I couldn't stop, you know, I just

863
00:46:45,725 --> 00:46:48,765
Speaker 2: had to keep trying to raise money and raise awareness

864
00:46:48,845 --> 00:46:50,765
Speaker 2: to the nurses and what they do for us. So,

865
00:46:50,805 --> 00:46:52,245
Speaker 2: you know, I could rave on about this for hours

866
00:46:52,245 --> 00:46:53,285
Speaker 2: because it's my happy place.

867
00:46:53,765 --> 00:46:57,245
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's part of your post traumatic growth also, right,

868
00:46:57,405 --> 00:47:00,605
Speaker 1: finding a way to channel this thing that happened to

869
00:47:00,645 --> 00:47:03,485
Speaker 1: you that was so shocking into something positive.

870
00:47:03,645 --> 00:47:04,925
Speaker 2: Well, you know, it really was an answer to my

871
00:47:04,965 --> 00:47:07,405
Speaker 2: prayer in many ways, because I so wanted something good

872
00:47:07,445 --> 00:47:10,445
Speaker 2: to come out of this, and now I realize that

873
00:47:10,445 --> 00:47:12,245
Speaker 2: the good is not going to come through me. It's

874
00:47:12,285 --> 00:47:14,125
Speaker 2: going to come through the nurses and the work that

875
00:47:14,165 --> 00:47:17,285
Speaker 2: they are doing. Because the nurses, all of their projects

876
00:47:17,285 --> 00:47:20,525
Speaker 2: are about, you know, how to help us as patients,

877
00:47:21,045 --> 00:47:23,805
Speaker 2: and that of course is the universal focus of nurses,

878
00:47:23,965 --> 00:47:27,925
Speaker 2: and so yeah, I just have the privilege of being

879
00:47:27,965 --> 00:47:30,645
Speaker 2: involved in that. I'm just like, my goodness, how blessed

880
00:47:30,645 --> 00:47:30,885
Speaker 2: am I?

881
00:47:31,405 --> 00:47:33,765
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny what you just said about how

882
00:47:33,805 --> 00:47:37,165
Speaker 1: you recognize that it's something that happened to all of us,

883
00:47:37,965 --> 00:47:41,245
Speaker 1: not just the people in the cafe, which sounds almost

884
00:47:42,125 --> 00:47:45,285
Speaker 1: arrogant when you particularly when you think about Tory and

885
00:47:45,365 --> 00:47:48,765
Speaker 1: Katrina and the families that they left behind and all

886
00:47:48,805 --> 00:47:52,845
Speaker 1: of you that were in there. How did you sort

887
00:47:52,885 --> 00:47:56,405
Speaker 1: of become aware that we do all sort of need

888
00:47:56,445 --> 00:47:59,405
Speaker 1: to process and to tell you where we were that

889
00:47:59,485 --> 00:48:01,165
Speaker 1: day and what our connections. I mean, the first thing

890
00:48:01,165 --> 00:48:03,125
Speaker 1: I did when I met you this morning was tell

891
00:48:03,165 --> 00:48:05,445
Speaker 1: you how I had connections to Tory and how I

892
00:48:05,445 --> 00:48:08,885
Speaker 1: had connections to Katrina. It's a lot to take on

893
00:48:10,245 --> 00:48:12,645
Speaker 1: how that affected the kind of the national psyche. How

894
00:48:12,645 --> 00:48:13,645
Speaker 1: did you become aware of it?

895
00:48:14,085 --> 00:48:16,125
Speaker 2: You know, when I think that, like I said, you know,

896
00:48:16,805 --> 00:48:18,885
Speaker 2: I was very aware. Well, you know, like I know

897
00:48:19,085 --> 00:48:21,245
Speaker 2: how we would have been, my mother and I. We

898
00:48:21,245 --> 00:48:23,725
Speaker 2: would have been outside the cafe praying for people. We

899
00:48:23,765 --> 00:48:25,525
Speaker 2: would have stayed up all night, We would have waited

900
00:48:25,525 --> 00:48:27,685
Speaker 2: with them. A nurse once said to me, you know,

901
00:48:27,845 --> 00:48:29,685
Speaker 2: about a week and a half into my state at

902
00:48:29,685 --> 00:48:32,845
Speaker 2: the hospital, she said, even though I was on morning shift,

903
00:48:33,005 --> 00:48:35,285
Speaker 2: I had to stay up to the very end and

904
00:48:35,325 --> 00:48:37,405
Speaker 2: watch on the television. She said, I couldn't leave you

905
00:48:37,445 --> 00:48:40,365
Speaker 2: in there alone. And I thought, oh, yes, I understand

906
00:48:40,405 --> 00:48:41,085
Speaker 2: what she's saying.

907
00:48:41,165 --> 00:48:43,125
Speaker 1: Yeah, that none of us wanted to go to sleep

908
00:48:43,165 --> 00:48:43,645
Speaker 1: that night.

909
00:48:44,085 --> 00:48:47,805
Speaker 2: Yeah, see, you know we're all we're all leaving, that's right.

910
00:48:48,325 --> 00:48:51,565
Speaker 2: And so I think that we if we recognize, this

911
00:48:51,645 --> 00:48:54,245
Speaker 2: is something that happened to all of us. And when

912
00:48:54,245 --> 00:48:57,605
Speaker 2: you think about what happened in Martin Place after, you know,

913
00:48:57,765 --> 00:49:00,085
Speaker 2: I was in hospital and it was on a self

914
00:49:00,125 --> 00:49:03,365
Speaker 2: imposed media blackout, but friends were bringing me news and

915
00:49:03,725 --> 00:49:07,325
Speaker 2: telling me stories and photographs, flowers, flowers and people. They're

916
00:49:07,365 --> 00:49:11,125
Speaker 2: telling me about random strangers sitting and talking and praying

917
00:49:11,165 --> 00:49:16,285
Speaker 2: and you know, Muslim people being there and everyone sharing together,

918
00:49:16,885 --> 00:49:18,805
Speaker 2: and you know, of course the Ride with Me campaign

919
00:49:18,845 --> 00:49:21,685
Speaker 2: that happened afterwards, So all of that stuff you kind

920
00:49:21,725 --> 00:49:24,765
Speaker 2: of I think it very clearly made it obvious that

921
00:49:24,805 --> 00:49:27,365
Speaker 2: we were all in this together. So therefore we had

922
00:49:27,405 --> 00:49:30,885
Speaker 2: to find a way to recover together. So for me,

923
00:49:30,965 --> 00:49:33,805
Speaker 2: that's really important, and part of that is telling our

924
00:49:33,845 --> 00:49:36,485
Speaker 2: stories to each other. And so I have great respect

925
00:49:36,565 --> 00:49:37,685
Speaker 2: you know, people come and tell me.

926
00:49:38,365 --> 00:49:38,845
Speaker 3: And you know.

927
00:49:41,445 --> 00:49:43,885
Speaker 2: Lesa Eyes's book, of course, you know she talks about

928
00:49:44,165 --> 00:49:47,085
Speaker 2: things like that where but we all had an ownership,

929
00:49:47,085 --> 00:49:47,525
Speaker 2: did we not?

930
00:49:47,765 --> 00:49:49,085
Speaker 3: In Threadbow and.

931
00:49:49,085 --> 00:49:51,565
Speaker 2: What happened to poor with Arthur, So we all have

932
00:49:51,645 --> 00:49:53,965
Speaker 2: a part of it. And if we think that it's

933
00:49:54,045 --> 00:49:56,245
Speaker 2: just oh yeah, something that happened on a news cycle,

934
00:49:57,205 --> 00:50:00,765
Speaker 2: well actually it's not, because we're all impacted by these things.

935
00:50:01,125 --> 00:50:02,565
Speaker 2: So how do we recover together?

936
00:50:03,205 --> 00:50:06,965
Speaker 1: That's incredibly gracious of you to understand that and acknowledge it.

937
00:50:07,045 --> 00:50:10,565
Speaker 1: And I'm going to guess that people would have two

938
00:50:10,605 --> 00:50:14,925
Speaker 1: reactions in terms of the hostages. Some I imagine, would

939
00:50:14,925 --> 00:50:16,805
Speaker 1: want to stay in touch and feel very bonded, and

940
00:50:16,845 --> 00:50:19,925
Speaker 1: others would want to just walk away and never look back.

941
00:50:20,685 --> 00:50:22,605
Speaker 1: Is that how it's panned out with those of you

942
00:50:22,685 --> 00:50:24,365
Speaker 1: who were there and lived through.

943
00:50:24,165 --> 00:50:28,165
Speaker 2: That definitely, you know, all separate individuals with individual lives

944
00:50:28,165 --> 00:50:32,965
Speaker 2: and stories, and you know, sometimes contact is a reminder

945
00:50:33,005 --> 00:50:36,485
Speaker 2: of that day and that's just too hard. And you know,

946
00:50:36,485 --> 00:50:41,245
Speaker 2: I totally respect that, and you know, my heart's always

947
00:50:41,285 --> 00:50:43,205
Speaker 2: you know, are you okay and how are you doing

948
00:50:43,245 --> 00:50:45,725
Speaker 2: and all that kind of stuff, But I also am

949
00:50:45,725 --> 00:50:49,285
Speaker 2: aware that I myself don't want to be an inflictor

950
00:50:49,725 --> 00:50:52,845
Speaker 2: of further pain. So you know, it's really hard to

951
00:50:52,925 --> 00:50:56,365
Speaker 2: kind of just walk that fine line between respect and care.

952
00:50:57,085 --> 00:51:00,725
Speaker 2: So yes, you just have to welp, hands off and

953
00:51:02,045 --> 00:51:03,125
Speaker 2: wait really.

954
00:51:03,365 --> 00:51:04,925
Speaker 1: So yeah, do you stay in touch?

955
00:51:05,005 --> 00:51:08,405
Speaker 2: And a few of them I too, Yes, definitely, and

956
00:51:08,645 --> 00:51:12,325
Speaker 2: I value that so much and I'm always keen for

957
00:51:12,365 --> 00:51:15,125
Speaker 2: any news of anyone else, but just so don't want

958
00:51:15,125 --> 00:51:20,485
Speaker 2: to invade them, you know, because we're five years and so,

959
00:51:23,165 --> 00:51:26,285
Speaker 2: you know, so aren't we inverted commas over that already?

960
00:51:26,725 --> 00:51:30,725
Speaker 2: But it's just it's not like that. It's never over, actually,

961
00:51:32,765 --> 00:51:35,485
Speaker 2: and so I don't never be over for the families.

962
00:51:35,525 --> 00:51:38,885
Speaker 2: But equally, you know, you stand up and you dust

963
00:51:38,885 --> 00:51:41,365
Speaker 2: yourself off and you get on, but it's always.

964
00:51:41,165 --> 00:51:46,565
Speaker 1: There, Louisa. I just want to thank you. I mean,

965
00:51:47,045 --> 00:51:49,565
Speaker 1: I understand that so many of the survivors from that

966
00:51:49,645 --> 00:51:54,325
Speaker 1: day and the families have wanted to retreat and you haven't.

967
00:51:54,405 --> 00:51:58,565
Speaker 1: You've kept being out there and speaking to be of

968
00:51:58,605 --> 00:52:02,165
Speaker 1: service and to help us collectively process this, as well

969
00:52:02,205 --> 00:52:05,005
Speaker 1: as trying to use it for good and raise money

970
00:52:05,005 --> 00:52:08,965
Speaker 1: for your foundation and to help nurses. You are such

971
00:52:08,965 --> 00:52:12,205
Speaker 1: a force of good in the world. Like for everything

972
00:52:12,245 --> 00:52:15,085
Speaker 1: that he was a force of dark, you are that

973
00:52:15,165 --> 00:52:21,285
Speaker 1: opposite and that equalizing and you know, exceptional force of good.

974
00:52:21,405 --> 00:52:26,805
Speaker 1: And I just wanted to say thank you, thank you, ma'a.

975
00:52:27,445 --> 00:52:31,885
Speaker 1: I hope that the incredible I don't know luminescence of

976
00:52:31,965 --> 00:52:35,525
Speaker 1: Louisa came through in that interview in the same way

977
00:52:35,525 --> 00:52:39,565
Speaker 1: that it did in the room. We were all in tears,

978
00:52:39,645 --> 00:52:44,165
Speaker 1: my producer, our person behind the camera, and the guy

979
00:52:44,205 --> 00:52:46,885
Speaker 1: that came along with Louisa as her sort of support

980
00:52:46,925 --> 00:52:50,205
Speaker 1: person because she walks with the cane and sher foot's bandaged,

981
00:52:50,525 --> 00:52:55,245
Speaker 1: but she had this beautiful, bright orange patent leather strappy

982
00:52:55,325 --> 00:52:58,845
Speaker 1: sandals around her foot, and she was wearing this gorgeous

983
00:52:58,845 --> 00:53:01,725
Speaker 1: floral dress and she was telling me this amazing story

984
00:53:01,805 --> 00:53:03,685
Speaker 1: of how the day before she'd been in the city

985
00:53:03,725 --> 00:53:05,765
Speaker 1: and she'd fallen over, and she said, that's something that

986
00:53:05,805 --> 00:53:09,365
Speaker 1: happens not infrequently because of her foot, and she's some

987
00:53:09,405 --> 00:53:11,165
Speaker 1: times loses her footing. And she was in the middle

988
00:53:11,205 --> 00:53:14,125
Speaker 1: of the street and a guy came to help her

989
00:53:14,205 --> 00:53:16,085
Speaker 1: and he said, oh, he noticed that she had a

990
00:53:16,085 --> 00:53:18,005
Speaker 1: bandage on her foot, and he said, oh, were you okay?

991
00:53:18,045 --> 00:53:20,605
Speaker 1: What happened? And she said, oh, I was in the

992
00:53:21,125 --> 00:53:24,485
Speaker 1: siege and I got some shrapnel in my foot. And

993
00:53:25,005 --> 00:53:27,725
Speaker 1: he said, oh, my god, my son is best friends

994
00:53:27,765 --> 00:53:30,085
Speaker 1: with Katrina Dawson's son, and I just dropped both the

995
00:53:30,125 --> 00:53:34,605
Speaker 1: boys at camp. And of all the people who could

996
00:53:34,605 --> 00:53:35,925
Speaker 1: have come to help her in the middle of a

997
00:53:35,965 --> 00:53:39,765
Speaker 1: city on an ordinary day, I don't know. Makes you

998
00:53:39,805 --> 00:53:43,365
Speaker 1: wonder as you heard towards the end of the siege,

999
00:53:43,485 --> 00:53:46,725
Speaker 1: Louisa was injured. She got shrapnel in her foot from

1000
00:53:46,725 --> 00:53:49,085
Speaker 1: all the gunfire, and afterwards she was taken to the

1001
00:53:49,125 --> 00:53:52,165
Speaker 1: Prince of Wales Hospital here in Sydney, where she spent

1002
00:53:52,285 --> 00:53:55,725
Speaker 1: three months as a patient, and she was so moved

1003
00:53:55,765 --> 00:53:58,485
Speaker 1: by the care and the compassion that she received there

1004
00:53:58,925 --> 00:54:02,365
Speaker 1: she decided to take this tragedy and turn it into

1005
00:54:02,405 --> 00:54:06,005
Speaker 1: something positive and she created the Louisa Hope Fund for

1006
00:54:06,125 --> 00:54:09,205
Speaker 1: Nurses as part of the Prince of Wales Hospital Foundation.

1007
00:54:09,965 --> 00:54:13,005
Speaker 1: To donate to the Prince of Wales Hospital Foundation Louisa

1008
00:54:13,085 --> 00:54:18,565
Speaker 1: Hope Fund for Nurses, please visit POWHF dot org dot

1009
00:54:18,605 --> 00:54:21,205
Speaker 1: au and we'll put a link in our show notes.

1010
00:54:21,765 --> 00:54:25,605
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by bridget Northeast and to the

1011
00:54:25,605 --> 00:54:30,285
Speaker 1: families of Katrina Dawson and Tory Johnson, we extend all

1012
00:54:30,325 --> 00:54:35,125
Speaker 1: our love and our deepest sympathies. Katrina and Tory are

1013
00:54:35,165 --> 00:54:35,805
Speaker 1: not forgotten.

1014
00:54:37,765 --> 00:54:40,125
Speaker 4: Hey, it's me just jumping back into your ears with

1015
00:54:40,285 --> 00:54:44,605
Speaker 4: no voice now. Since we recorded that interview with Louisa

1016
00:54:44,765 --> 00:54:49,365
Speaker 4: last week, we've also done another interview about the Sydney

1017
00:54:49,605 --> 00:54:53,045
Speaker 4: Link Cafe siege more generally with a journalist called Debra

1018
00:54:53,125 --> 00:54:55,365
Speaker 4: Snow who's written a book on it. We did it

1019
00:54:55,405 --> 00:54:58,685
Speaker 4: on our podcast through Crime Conversations. Jesse Stevens did that

1020
00:54:58,725 --> 00:55:01,725
Speaker 4: interview and it feels in a lot of the blanks

1021
00:55:01,885 --> 00:55:03,805
Speaker 4: that you might have and a lot of the questions

1022
00:55:03,845 --> 00:55:07,125
Speaker 4: that you might have after listening to Louise's incredible story,

1023
00:55:07,165 --> 00:55:09,725
Speaker 4: because I really had to make a decision when I

1024
00:55:09,765 --> 00:55:12,205
Speaker 4: was talking to her what I would talk to her about,

1025
00:55:12,365 --> 00:55:14,205
Speaker 4: like I could have talked to her for one hundred years, really,

1026
00:55:14,245 --> 00:55:17,245
Speaker 4: she was so interesting. But there were things about the gunman,

1027
00:55:17,565 --> 00:55:21,165
Speaker 4: about his history, about the police response, about some of

1028
00:55:21,205 --> 00:55:24,085
Speaker 4: the TikTok, and what happened step by step during the

1029
00:55:24,165 --> 00:55:27,725
Speaker 4: day that we just didn't cover. So this other interview

1030
00:55:27,765 --> 00:55:30,485
Speaker 4: on our podcast, True Crime Conversations, you might want to

1031
00:55:30,525 --> 00:55:33,285
Speaker 4: listen to it. You'll find it wherever you find your podcasts.

1032
00:55:33,685 --> 00:55:36,045
Speaker 4: And we've actually done it in two parts. The first

1033
00:55:36,125 --> 00:55:38,925
Speaker 4: part is a little bit about the gunman, or a

1034
00:55:38,965 --> 00:55:41,805
Speaker 4: lot about the gunment actually and what happened before the siege,

1035
00:55:42,205 --> 00:55:44,285
Speaker 4: and then there's a lot about the siege itself in

1036
00:55:44,325 --> 00:55:45,085
Speaker 4: our second part.

1037
00:55:45,205 --> 00:55:46,365
Speaker 1: So I have a listen to that