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Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Mamma Maya acknowledges the

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Speaker 1: traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is

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Speaker 1: recorded on.

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Speaker 2: It's not uncommon for people with MRKH to prove their

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Speaker 2: worth through a lot of sex. It had nothing to

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Speaker 2: do with the person, and I'm so sorry to every

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Speaker 2: sexual partner out there that I've had, which has been

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Speaker 2: a lot.

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Speaker 1: It was almost like a numbers game.

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Speaker 2: The more I could seek with people, the more a

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Speaker 2: woman I thought I might fail. Hi.

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Speaker 3: I'm Kate lane Brook, Welcome to No Filter. When Alie

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Speaker 3: Hensley was sixteen, she was told something no teenage girl

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Speaker 3: expects to hear. She was born without a uterus, without

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Speaker 3: a cervix, and without a vaginal canal. It's called mr

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Speaker 3: Kh syndrome, a condition most people have never heard of,

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Speaker 3: but for Alie, that diagnosis would shape almost every part

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Speaker 3: of her life, her relationships, her sexuality, her body image,

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Speaker 3: and how she saw herself as a woman. In this conversation,

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Speaker 3: Allie shares her story with such honesty and vulnerability about

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Speaker 3: what it was like to undergo vaginal dilation as a teenager,

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Speaker 3: to navigate sex and intimacy with a body that felt

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Speaker 3: different and to live for years feeling like she had

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Speaker 3: to hide a secret. We talk about infertility, about trauma,

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Speaker 3: about abusive relationships, and shame. So friends, please listen mindfully.

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Speaker 3: This is a conversation about identity survival and what it

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Speaker 3: means to make peace with your life when it turns

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Speaker 3: out so very differently to what you imagined. Here is

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Speaker 3: Alie Hensley, Alison Hensley, Allie, welcome.

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Speaker 4: To No Filter.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me, and how lucky

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Speaker 3: that this is no filter because I'm going to give

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Speaker 3: our listeners the same. Is it a warning, It's a

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Speaker 3: premonition that you have given readers in your brilliant book

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Speaker 3: Vagina Uncensored and Memoir of Missing Parts, And this is

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Speaker 3: the warning.

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Speaker 4: We're going to say vagina a lot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we are. It's a staple to my vocabulary diet.

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Speaker 3: The irony of us saying vagina a lot is that

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Speaker 3: you were born without a vagina.

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Speaker 1: I most certainly was. Yep.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to cast myself in the same role as

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Speaker 3: the friend that you refer to in the book, who

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Speaker 3: has all the standard questions that I imagine a lot of

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Speaker 3: our listeners also do. And it actually comes from I

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Speaker 3: realize a place a privilege of never having to question

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Speaker 3: that about my body.

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Speaker 4: Question one, how did you weigh?

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Speaker 2: So the diagnosis, just to sort of premise this conversation,

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Speaker 2: is called Maya Rocketanski Cowstahauser syndrome MRKH for short, the

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Speaker 2: most unsexiest diagnosis name to advocate for. Not that I

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Speaker 2: believe it's all about being a gamorous brand, but it

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Speaker 2: is a hard one to take over the line. It's

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Speaker 2: a congenital condition, meaning it was present at birth, and

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Speaker 2: it affects one in five thousand women. It tends to

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Speaker 2: occur in the first six to eight weeks of gestation,

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Speaker 2: so when all those vital organs are being formed and developed.

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Speaker 2: I always describe it as a lorry traveling down the

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Speaker 2: genetic path and it hits pothole, and in that pothole

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Speaker 2: was the reproductive development. So I was born with ovaries,

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Speaker 2: which meant my estrogen was firing. So I'm an XX

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Speaker 2: chromosome female biologically, and because I had the estrogen, it

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Speaker 2: was giving my body the signal to develop typically externally

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Speaker 2: as a female, so you'd never know from the outside,

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Speaker 2: which is why you know it wasn't picked up at

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Speaker 2: birth the way it was diagnosis when I failed to

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Speaker 2: get my first period, so I have the uretha. It

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Speaker 2: was the actual vaginal canal, and because we're formed from

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Speaker 2: the outside in, my genitalia was I don't like to

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Speaker 2: use the word normal caked.

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Speaker 1: It's got me into a lot of sad times.

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Speaker 3: I think its standard. What term do we use standard?

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Speaker 3: I use typical, right, typical? Okay, So you're externally as

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Speaker 3: you were saying, your typical. So if anyone saw you naked,

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Speaker 3: nobody would know that what is missing is the internal cavity.

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Speaker 2: So yes, I was born without a uterus, the cervix,

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Speaker 2: and then the vaginal canal. What I was born with

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Speaker 2: is called a dimple, which is like basically it was

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Speaker 2: the length of my thumbnail. The first sign was no period.

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Speaker 2: At sixteen, I went to the doctors with my mum.

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Speaker 2: They said, maybe you're a late starter. You know, I

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Speaker 2: wasn't overly athletic. I'd sort of dabbled in eating disorder,

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Speaker 2: but I wasn't so thin that the period.

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Speaker 1: Would stop or not start.

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Speaker 2: Because when you've released a book and you've told all

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Speaker 2: your secrets, I said, you have, yes, of course write,

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Speaker 2: So I can't really backtrack on the truth as much

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Speaker 2: as I used to politely give my sort of diagnosis

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Speaker 2: pitch or speech, if you like. I was over in

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Speaker 2: Greece with my family and my best friend and we

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Speaker 2: had this I don't think I've actually shared this before.

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Speaker 2: We had one of those like charts where you can

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Speaker 2: kind of gauge who kisses the nice boys or.

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Speaker 1: It gets chepped up.

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Speaker 2: They would take part in hand play, and then who

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Speaker 2: would go the four mile and have sexual intercourse? And

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Speaker 2: I met this really gorgeous guy in a bar and

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Speaker 2: it was like after closing, and I can't remember where

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Speaker 2: I was. I think it was some behind a bush

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Speaker 2: somewhere probably, and we tried to have sexual intercourse and

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Speaker 2: it just didn't work. And I didn't know then that

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Speaker 2: I had m mark h, so you know, he gave

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Speaker 2: it a good go, but it just never happened. And

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Speaker 2: I thought it was like the hymen thing, you know,

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Speaker 2: when you're young and you're about be hymen and you

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Speaker 2: have to pop your cherry. I just thought maybe mine

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Speaker 2: was not so probable. So that's that's how I kind

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Speaker 2: of knew something was wrong. But you never go as

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Speaker 2: far to think that it could be this particular scenario.

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Speaker 4: No, because as you said, it.

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Speaker 3: It's so rare, did you because you went to the

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Speaker 3: doctor with your mum.

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Speaker 4: So this was after the Greek the Greek holiday.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought it was gonna say the Greek COTTI there, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: the Greek Holiday.

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Speaker 1: We came back and then the period hadn't arrived.

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Speaker 2: Still, I remember doing my school exams and having this

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Speaker 2: terrible fear that I would be the girl that sort

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Speaker 2: of stands up after the three hour mass exam and

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Speaker 2: has like blood all hamer skirt and I so I

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Speaker 2: wore I wore these really ugly sanitary towels that my

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Speaker 2: mum gave me. They're ones that kind of like they

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Speaker 2: look like a hammock. They're really archaic now and they've

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Speaker 2: got more one them or something fascinating huge compared to nowadays.

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Speaker 2: But concerned at that point, the GP gave me an

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Speaker 2: internal exam, which was incredibly intrusive. I mean, I was

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Speaker 2: a child, you mean think of sixteen odds of course

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Speaker 2: being very mature, but we're not far out of childhood.

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Speaker 2: And had a look on his face that was obviously

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Speaker 2: quite concerning. He did refer me to have an ultrasound

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Speaker 2: and then the sonographer's face was also sort of perplexed.

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Speaker 2: Then I went on to have laparoscopy, which is getting

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Speaker 2: cert a camera into your abdomen, and that was the

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Speaker 2: diagnosis day. I remember the doctor pulling the curtain around

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Speaker 2: my bed. He hadn't for any other other of the

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Speaker 2: patients on the ward, and he drew a diagram. And

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Speaker 2: I always think it's funny the facts that you remember,

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Speaker 2: like a lead pencil. No one ever uses pencils now.

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Speaker 2: And he told me that I was born with this diagnosis,

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Speaker 2: but it didn't occur to me. My mum's face was

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Speaker 2: profoundly grief stricken, shocked, but I.

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Speaker 1: Just thought, well, i'll get I'll get I'll get fixed.

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Speaker 1: You know, what's the big deal?

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Speaker 2: And their lies trauma when you don't truly believe or

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Speaker 2: comprehend the news that it's given to you. And shortly

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Speaker 2: after I was sent to a very very amazing flagship

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Speaker 2: hospital in London where I was given two options if

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Speaker 2: I wanted to create a vaginal canal. And this is

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Speaker 2: only literally a month after my diagnosis. That all happened

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Speaker 2: very fast, and they give you two options surgery where

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Speaker 2: they create one obviously surgically, and there's about five different procedures.

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Speaker 1: Some are barbaric.

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Speaker 2: Some aren't less awful or vaginal dilation, which is when

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Speaker 2: they give you their various sizes of Pyrex tubes. They're

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Speaker 2: not sexy dildo looking things. They literally are tubes. And

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Speaker 2: I was admitted into hospital for three days and taught

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Speaker 2: how to create vagina. And you would be lying on

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Speaker 2: your back, your knees splayed into a diamond shape, and

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Speaker 2: the nurse would guide you with the smallest into the

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Speaker 2: dimple and you would press against your body. So I

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Speaker 2: would have to use my strength of my arm and

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Speaker 2: my hand against the resistance of the muscle mass, which

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Speaker 2: is the undercreated vagina. And they said to me, if

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Speaker 2: your knuckles turn white, you're doing it correctly. And I think,

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Speaker 2: despite nailing how to do it, those three days in

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Speaker 2: hospital are incredibly, incredibly responsible for the next fifteen years

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Speaker 2: of how I completely dismantled and reacted to this diagnosis.

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Speaker 2: I did create the vagina. It took me nine months.

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Speaker 2: It's a really weird scenario. When you're upstairs in your

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Speaker 2: bedroom before school, after school, parents are downstairs trying to

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Speaker 2: coenc you know, coexist with normality. Sometimes I would sneak

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Speaker 2: some cider and some hoots just to make myself a

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Speaker 2: bit tipsy, so I don't have to feel the pain

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Speaker 2: sure and the shame.

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Speaker 1: I should say pain and shame.

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Speaker 2: And even though I was going through the process, there

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Speaker 2: wasn't any support, there wasn't any awareness. I always think

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Speaker 2: it's really interesting when there are so many procedures out

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Speaker 2: there where physiotherapists and Guyanese and healthcare professionals will say,

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Speaker 2: this is your diagnosis, this is your treatment. But there

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Speaker 2: was something that I've only been able to really nail.

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Speaker 2: I guess in the last year about that process for me,

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Speaker 2: because I was really learning how to couple pain with progress,

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Speaker 2: pain and intimacy, and pain with shame and sex. And

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Speaker 2: that's why I had a shocking, shockingly bad relationship with

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Speaker 2: relationships and sex for.

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Speaker 1: A long, long, long, long long time.

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Speaker 3: Well, what you have described sounds like a turn that's

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Speaker 3: bandied around a lot, but you've had a double dose

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Speaker 3: of trauma then, because you had the physical trauma of

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Speaker 3: actually trying to create this vaginal passage in what sounds

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Speaker 3: like a most excruciating manner, but you've also had the

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Speaker 3: emotional trauma. So even down to the fact that when

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Speaker 3: you talk in your book about your family, who sounds

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Speaker 3: so beautiful, your mum and your dad, and they were

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Speaker 3: very open about this. But even the openness, like you said,

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Speaker 3: bring shame. So everyone's like, oh, where's a Ali. Oh

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Speaker 3: she's upstairs making her vagina.

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Speaker 4: You know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: That's so difficult when you're that age, at any.

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Speaker 1: Age, well, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: And I think you know this topic stems from women's health,

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Speaker 2: I think in general, when it's when it's below the belt,

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Speaker 2: and I think parents do their absolute best. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I probably got away with quite a lot in the

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Speaker 2: sense of just allow her to work it through or

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Speaker 2: work it out, or let's not go too hard on her. Now,

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Speaker 2: I would say to parents, place the boundaries that you

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Speaker 2: would for any child, because it gives them a sense

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Speaker 2: that you're still a un quote normal child.

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Speaker 1: And they did their best.

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Speaker 2: But I mean, my dad took me to the hospital

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Speaker 2: when I first made the vagina or started the process

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Speaker 2: because my mum was working, and oh gosh, he tried

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Speaker 2: so hard to sort of normalize it for me. But

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Speaker 2: you are right in the double dose, and I don't

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Speaker 2: think that caught up with me for a very very

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Speaker 2: long time. One pure denial. Two there's no real space

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Speaker 2: to talk about this, certainly with friends, and because how

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Speaker 2: do you you know, how do you sort of say, ah,

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Speaker 2: you know, you never guess what I had to do

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Speaker 2: last night.

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Speaker 1: I had to go and create my I've got one.

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Speaker 2: And so you're living in a sense of constant secrecy, which,

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Speaker 2: of course we know breeds.

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Speaker 1: Even more shame and more than anything.

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Speaker 2: I think when you're sixteen seventeen, you're at this junction

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Speaker 2: of womanhood, which sounds sort of very poetic now when

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Speaker 2: I think about it, but you think what kind of

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Speaker 2: mother will I be and what kind of partner will

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Speaker 2: I be? And when those two things are thrown into

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Speaker 2: disarray pretty much overnight, what you believe womanhood to be

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Speaker 2: is completely, you know, thrown out the window.

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Speaker 1: And I felt awful. I felt disgusting, I felt broken.

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Speaker 2: I talk a lot in the book about, you know,

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Speaker 2: just the ky jelly that I had to use.

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Speaker 1: You know, just I felt like it was always on me,

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Speaker 1: sort of having to.

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Speaker 2: It's almost self harm by consent, and I will definitely

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Speaker 2: include a trigger warning here in terms of people have

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Speaker 2: gone through sexual I can't claim that experience and I

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Speaker 2: would never dare to try to put myself in that camp,

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Speaker 2: of course. But for me, when I think about the

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Speaker 2: sort of the symptomatic processes and the afterthought of as

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Speaker 2: you sort of shame and the PTSD and the trauma,

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Speaker 2: it felt like an assault on my body. But I

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Speaker 2: did it to myself very I sort of say, it's

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Speaker 2: very sad. I feel very sad for my seventeen year

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Speaker 2: old self and all the people who were going through

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Speaker 2: this diagnosis.

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Speaker 3: After your MRKH diagnosis, how did you share that with,

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Speaker 3: for instance, your girlfriends from school who were menstruating and living,

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Speaker 3: as you say, a typical womanly life and on the

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Speaker 3: cusp of that, how did you you kept it secret?

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Speaker 1: I think I told one friend, my best friend at

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Speaker 1: the time. I would lie an awful lot.

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Speaker 2: I lied about whether I had sort of like the

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Speaker 2: tampon in the bag, what time of the month was

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Speaker 2: I on. We talked about sort of later on consciraception,

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Speaker 2: where I would learn the most common names of conscioception,

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Speaker 2: like the pill, so that if I was asked I

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Speaker 2: could tell them or a perspective partner. It really just

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Speaker 2: wasn't spoken about, and I don't think it was a

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Speaker 2: conscious decision almost not to speak about it it was.

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Speaker 2: I refused to even acknowledge that it exists, to not

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Speaker 2: speak about it. I left school. I dropped out of school.

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Speaker 2: I was an absolute car crash as I was leading

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Speaker 2: up to my final exams, and then I loosened to

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Speaker 2: the big unknown.

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Speaker 1: I got into university.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how we'll call them a levels over here,

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Speaker 2: and that was the worst place with somebody who doesn't

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Speaker 2: want boundaries, doesn't know how to do boundaries, and prey

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Speaker 2: much is. I was on a self destructive path to

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Speaker 2: self destruct. I hated myself and I was going to

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Speaker 2: do everything with my within my power to ensure that

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Speaker 2: that was true. And I would put myself into situations

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Speaker 2: where I would purposefully be treated incredibly poorly by people,

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Speaker 2: by men. It was a real weird validation of what Yes, you're.

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Speaker 4: Right, what you believed about yourself.

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Speaker 2: Hmm. And again, I think this is to do with

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Speaker 2: the vaginal dilation hospital experience. That's all I knew about intimacy,

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Speaker 2: So I didn't know how to form healthy relationships with

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Speaker 2: well with anyone really, in the sense I would gravitate

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Speaker 2: towards people who had their own probably demons if I

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Speaker 2: look at it, you know, retrospectively, the sort of like

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Speaker 2: the bad boys, the bad people, the wanted wanted to

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Speaker 2: act out, wanted to get pissed every night, wanted to have,

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Speaker 2: you know, random sexual encounters. The more, the merrier, the worse,

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Speaker 2: the better, the it was everything that was healthy.

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Speaker 1: I choose to do the opposite. Was I choosing?

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Speaker 2: I don't think. I don't even know if it was

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Speaker 2: a choice. I was just I was just doing that

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Speaker 2: with anyone and everyone. I didn't tell anyone.

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Speaker 3: Next, we talk about the turning point, how Ali learned

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Speaker 3: to stop punishing herself, and how the act of speaking

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Speaker 3: out became the beginning of her healing. It's very interesting

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Speaker 3: because I met you through you through the pages of

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Speaker 3: your book, and though you describe, you know, the depths

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Speaker 3: of your pain and fear and shame, within that, there's

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Speaker 3: an overriding sense of you as being a very act

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Speaker 3: I'm going to say, happy person, which is a you know,

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Speaker 3: you address the notion of happiness, A very lovely person,

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Speaker 3: a very easy to love person. And I'm struck by

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Speaker 3: how it seems in retrospect. Sometimes we like to look

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Speaker 3: at people as though they're fully finished now the way

307
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Speaker 3: they always were. But your journey has been such an

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Speaker 3: incredible one of grappling at each stage with the dysfunction,

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Speaker 3: the physical, the mental, the self harm to get yourself

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Speaker 3: to the place where you are now. And I think

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Speaker 3: this is where your story is a benefit to so

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Speaker 3: many people.

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Speaker 2: I actually want to cry when you're saying that to me,

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Speaker 2: Kate those lovely compliments. It's you know, I wrote the book,

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Speaker 2: but I don't know what it's like to look at

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Speaker 2: me from the outsider perspective or of course the reader perspective.

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Speaker 1: I was brought up to be a very.

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Speaker 2: Hard worker, with value and morals and empathy. I think

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Speaker 2: when you've been through horror, they always say that you

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Speaker 2: want to heal other people for the parts that are

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Speaker 2: unhealed in yourself. I am incredibly I don't know whether

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Speaker 2: it's the word resilience.

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Speaker 1: Sort of. I knew how to sort of.

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Speaker 2: Present myself to be as I say, you know, a

325
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Speaker 2: hard work, a kind person. I would never want harm

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Speaker 2: on anybody else. That wasn't my objective. My objective was

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Speaker 2: to hurt myself and allow others to hurt me, as

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Speaker 2: I say, through domestic violence, control crazy crazy choices and

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Speaker 2: men that I'm still maybe trying to work out. Let's

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Speaker 2: say I think we all are working well, we.

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Speaker 3: All have those vagina or no vagina.

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Speaker 2: By the way, I was gonna say, that doesn't make

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Speaker 2: me special.

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Speaker 1: And that's what's so important about the book.

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Speaker 2: I've got to thank you for that, because the book,

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00:21:08,165 --> 00:21:10,845
Speaker 2: of course touches on MARKH and kind of sets the

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Speaker 2: tone from my experience. But I think there are so

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Speaker 2: many experiences where as women feel that whether you have

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Speaker 2: m R H or not, a vagina or not, you know,

340
00:21:20,405 --> 00:21:23,885
Speaker 2: there is infertility in there. There is like the dating

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00:21:23,965 --> 00:21:27,165
Speaker 2: dilemmas in Bondai Beach, Good Lord, like you have to

342
00:21:27,245 --> 00:21:29,765
Speaker 2: seriously armor up to date in Bondi Beach when I

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Speaker 2: lived there for fifteen years, the turnaround moments.

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Speaker 1: I think.

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Speaker 2: I always knew deep inside of me that I knew

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Speaker 2: that I could do something really good, and I knew

347
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Speaker 2: that I wanted to.

348
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Speaker 1: Really be happy.

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Speaker 2: I think I was always on a convey about observing

350
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Speaker 2: happiness and trying to work out how people can feel

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Speaker 2: like that and what do I have to do. It

352
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Speaker 2: was when I was in Bondi and I think I

353
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Speaker 2: probably I think I was tanked up on some wine actually,

354
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Speaker 2: and FACEBOOK was in my era and I wrote a

355
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Speaker 2: post on mrkh four saying I really need help and

356
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Speaker 2: I was wondering if anyone knew how to help me.

357
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Speaker 2: Of course, next day, hungover and over share as remorse,

358
00:22:19,645 --> 00:22:23,525
Speaker 2: deleted the post. But that was probably the first step

359
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Speaker 2: in knowing that I needed to kind of get up

360
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Speaker 2: up close and personal with my diagnosis. I was so

361
00:22:31,965 --> 00:22:37,325
Speaker 2: exhausted of being so unhappy, and I did email an

362
00:22:37,325 --> 00:22:40,685
Speaker 2: amazing hospital in Sydney and I asked if for support

363
00:22:40,725 --> 00:22:45,245
Speaker 2: group existed for people like me, knowing that London and

364
00:22:45,365 --> 00:22:49,085
Speaker 2: Boston had Spearhead the Way and peer support, and they said,

365
00:22:49,125 --> 00:22:53,005
Speaker 2: we don't, but there's something in you, you know, quite

366
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Speaker 2: a good business acumen, organized passionate.

367
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Speaker 1: So we did.

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Speaker 2: That's what we did. We started the first peer support

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Speaker 2: group for people in Australia and there was fifteen women

370
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Speaker 2: in a circle. There was a doctor and there was

371
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Speaker 2: a nurse and we for three hours did some presentations,

372
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Speaker 2: we did small storytelling. I don't think peer support or

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Speaker 2: healing is any particularly difficult formula. We've seen it happen

374
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Speaker 2: through hundreds and hundreds of years of women coming in

375
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Speaker 2: circle or eating disorder therapy groups, Alcoholics anonymous Bible study groups,

376
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Speaker 2: book clubs. They all have the same formula. You create

377
00:23:41,005 --> 00:23:44,845
Speaker 2: a safe space for people to talk about what's has

378
00:23:44,965 --> 00:23:49,045
Speaker 2: caused them so much harm with no judgment, absolute trust

379
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Speaker 2: and safety, and there you've got yourself a place for

380
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Speaker 2: true recovery. I don't think that it's a you know,

381
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Speaker 2: when people think about peer support, it's let's sit around

382
00:24:01,245 --> 00:24:03,445
Speaker 2: and breid each other's hair and talk about you know,

383
00:24:04,925 --> 00:24:06,885
Speaker 2: you know, something that might have just hurt ten years ago.

384
00:24:07,125 --> 00:24:10,885
Speaker 2: There is a there's a fully functioning, robust way to

385
00:24:11,005 --> 00:24:14,165
Speaker 2: do what I did in Australia, and I have never

386
00:24:14,245 --> 00:24:18,685
Speaker 2: felt anything come so effortlessly then I did, knowing that

387
00:24:18,765 --> 00:24:23,445
Speaker 2: I wanted to become an mrkage advocate. However, what I

388
00:24:23,525 --> 00:24:27,205
Speaker 2: quickly realized in the world of media, especially in Australia,

389
00:24:27,885 --> 00:24:32,805
Speaker 2: which is a young ish, I guess country, and no

390
00:24:32,885 --> 00:24:35,445
Speaker 2: one's been talking about vaginas like fifteen years ago the

391
00:24:35,485 --> 00:24:39,565
Speaker 2: way that I wanted to. I realized that this isn't

392
00:24:39,605 --> 00:24:43,045
Speaker 2: the time to fundraise, This isn't the time to be

393
00:24:43,125 --> 00:24:47,205
Speaker 2: building programs for people at m RKH. This is the

394
00:24:47,245 --> 00:24:52,365
Speaker 2: time to start talking about the condition as raw and

395
00:24:52,725 --> 00:24:56,285
Speaker 2: as open as I possibly could without turning it into

396
00:24:56,325 --> 00:24:58,925
Speaker 2: a clickbait exercise because I know.

397
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Speaker 1: That it could be misconstrued a lot of the time.

398
00:25:01,725 --> 00:25:05,085
Speaker 3: Is that maybe you talk about wanting to create this

399
00:25:05,245 --> 00:25:09,525
Speaker 3: place of safety, which, once again with the benefit of hindsight,

400
00:25:09,405 --> 00:25:15,085
Speaker 3: it was possibly as much for yourself as for the

401
00:25:15,125 --> 00:25:19,165
Speaker 3: other women that you drew to you, but in your

402
00:25:19,325 --> 00:25:23,405
Speaker 3: because in your personal life you had lived without any safety.

403
00:25:24,205 --> 00:25:27,165
Speaker 3: So you relate your first relationship with James that was

404
00:25:27,205 --> 00:25:31,485
Speaker 3: in the UK, tell me, tell me about that period

405
00:25:31,525 --> 00:25:35,805
Speaker 3: and where you were mentally and spiritually at that point

406
00:25:36,085 --> 00:25:41,125
Speaker 3: with James. Yeah, and then and then subsequently Tom and

407
00:25:41,165 --> 00:25:43,725
Speaker 3: and the period of your life that brought you to Australia.

408
00:25:44,885 --> 00:25:48,405
Speaker 2: I dropped out of university. They wanted to put me

409
00:25:48,405 --> 00:25:52,245
Speaker 2: on antidepressants and I was self harming quite a lot.

410
00:25:52,805 --> 00:25:58,765
Speaker 2: I did attempt to take my own life one night

411
00:25:59,405 --> 00:26:03,365
Speaker 2: at university and I knew that I was dangerously close

412
00:26:04,365 --> 00:26:10,485
Speaker 2: to the edged, or let's say the end. My dad

413
00:26:10,525 --> 00:26:14,525
Speaker 2: came and picked me up and we drove back to Berkshire,

414
00:26:14,525 --> 00:26:16,765
Speaker 2: which is the county I was born in in the UK.

415
00:26:18,205 --> 00:26:20,565
Speaker 2: But I still wasn't ready, Like I was still far

416
00:26:20,605 --> 00:26:23,285
Speaker 2: from ready. I was still had like a massive a

417
00:26:23,365 --> 00:26:26,805
Speaker 2: goal to continue the self destruction. I just had a

418
00:26:26,805 --> 00:26:30,165
Speaker 2: sabbatical for a couple of months. I walked into a

419
00:26:30,245 --> 00:26:34,765
Speaker 2: pub because you know, that's what you do midweek without

420
00:26:34,845 --> 00:26:38,325
Speaker 2: any goal or purpose or friends or happiness, and I

421
00:26:38,445 --> 00:26:41,645
Speaker 2: just met the locals. I was drinking cider at the

422
00:26:41,725 --> 00:26:44,405
Speaker 2: end of the bar, and I heard that there was

423
00:26:44,445 --> 00:26:46,685
Speaker 2: a job opening in a kitchen. And my mum had

424
00:26:46,725 --> 00:26:48,925
Speaker 2: had a restaurant, so I had a bit of experience

425
00:26:49,045 --> 00:26:54,085
Speaker 2: in that environment. And I was half pissed, and I

426
00:26:54,125 --> 00:26:58,565
Speaker 2: had an interview with James and I got the job,

427
00:26:58,965 --> 00:27:00,485
Speaker 2: and I went back down to the bar and I

428
00:27:00,485 --> 00:27:02,245
Speaker 2: fell off the stool because I was a drunk, and

429
00:27:02,285 --> 00:27:04,805
Speaker 2: everyone laughed, and that was pretty much the premise for

430
00:27:05,685 --> 00:27:06,885
Speaker 2: the environment.

431
00:27:08,085 --> 00:27:08,245
Speaker 3: There.

432
00:27:08,645 --> 00:27:10,165
Speaker 1: It was very seat grip with James.

433
00:27:10,205 --> 00:27:14,085
Speaker 2: I was still on a very promiscuous high. That's not

434
00:27:14,165 --> 00:27:17,325
Speaker 2: uncommon for people with MRKH to prove their worth through

435
00:27:17,885 --> 00:27:19,405
Speaker 2: a lot of sex.

436
00:27:20,165 --> 00:27:22,005
Speaker 1: It had nothing to do with the person.

437
00:27:22,085 --> 00:27:24,245
Speaker 2: And I'm so sorry to every sexual partner out there

438
00:27:24,245 --> 00:27:30,085
Speaker 2: that I've had, which has been a lot, but I did.

439
00:27:30,205 --> 00:27:31,765
Speaker 1: It was almost like a numbers game.

440
00:27:31,885 --> 00:27:33,925
Speaker 2: The more the more I could sleep with people, the

441
00:27:33,925 --> 00:27:35,725
Speaker 2: more a woman I thought I might feel.

442
00:27:36,525 --> 00:27:42,245
Speaker 3: At this point because you've your vagina is functioning as

443
00:27:42,285 --> 00:27:45,485
Speaker 3: a typical vagina at this point, fully made, and so

444
00:27:45,605 --> 00:27:50,925
Speaker 3: then so you can have a promiscuous and vigorous sex life,

445
00:27:51,045 --> 00:27:55,005
Speaker 3: fully functioning like any other girl in her twenties.

446
00:27:55,765 --> 00:27:59,885
Speaker 2: Yes, but I also never wanted to go back to

447
00:27:59,965 --> 00:28:05,445
Speaker 2: dilation ever again. Right, And there's different opinions about whether

448
00:28:05,485 --> 00:28:07,125
Speaker 2: your vagina will close.

449
00:28:07,165 --> 00:28:08,485
Speaker 1: I mean, it won't ever close up.

450
00:28:08,605 --> 00:28:12,565
Speaker 2: It's like an elastic band over time you have stretched it.

451
00:28:13,005 --> 00:28:16,565
Speaker 2: But I just had this awful feeling that if it shrinks,

452
00:28:16,605 --> 00:28:18,045
Speaker 2: then I'm going to have to go back to that

453
00:28:18,125 --> 00:28:21,245
Speaker 2: bedroom scenario and push objects back into my body. So

454
00:28:21,325 --> 00:28:23,885
Speaker 2: I thought, over my dead body, am I ever going

455
00:28:23,965 --> 00:28:26,605
Speaker 2: to do that again? So I had a lot of

456
00:28:26,645 --> 00:28:31,365
Speaker 2: sex and replacement of having to go through dilatory therapy.

457
00:28:31,405 --> 00:28:36,605
Speaker 3: Using a penis as the dilator. Yeah, right, absolutely practical.

458
00:28:37,325 --> 00:28:40,405
Speaker 1: I thought it was. I thought I was being pretty resourceful.

459
00:28:40,765 --> 00:28:44,325
Speaker 2: They were dilators with a heartbeat, and it sounds awful,

460
00:28:44,365 --> 00:28:45,965
Speaker 2: But I don't think they cared about me any more

461
00:28:46,005 --> 00:28:48,165
Speaker 2: than I cared about them. That was the environment that

462
00:28:48,205 --> 00:28:50,325
Speaker 2: we were in, and it's only in the last few

463
00:28:50,405 --> 00:28:54,525
Speaker 2: years where I haven't I've been sort of on off relationships,

464
00:28:55,645 --> 00:28:56,685
Speaker 2: and I thought, oh shit.

465
00:28:56,525 --> 00:28:58,125
Speaker 1: What am I going to do? Like, I don't want

466
00:28:58,125 --> 00:28:59,045
Speaker 1: to go back to dilation.

467
00:28:59,525 --> 00:29:01,285
Speaker 2: I don't want to go back to being like, you know,

468
00:29:01,445 --> 00:29:04,885
Speaker 2: a promiscuous woman. I don't have the time or the

469
00:29:04,925 --> 00:29:08,845
Speaker 2: contacts to do it. But now I'm just taking sheer

470
00:29:08,885 --> 00:29:11,325
Speaker 2: faith the fact that I'll make the right choice when

471
00:29:11,365 --> 00:29:16,085
Speaker 2: I have to make the right choice. But then James will.

472
00:29:16,325 --> 00:29:18,125
Speaker 2: None of us should be of working in a pub.

473
00:29:18,165 --> 00:29:21,845
Speaker 2: You should never give responsibility or keys or to anyone

474
00:29:21,925 --> 00:29:24,485
Speaker 2: who's under the age of twenty five. It's a dangerous place.

475
00:29:24,605 --> 00:29:27,845
Speaker 2: Too much drugs, too much money, too many honestly, too

476
00:29:27,925 --> 00:29:31,685
Speaker 2: much exposed to alcohol. Everyone in the environment tends to

477
00:29:31,685 --> 00:29:33,845
Speaker 2: be on the run from something. There's a trauma there.

478
00:29:33,845 --> 00:29:37,605
Speaker 2: That's why hiding in pubs is so easy, because everyone's

479
00:29:37,645 --> 00:29:39,325
Speaker 2: there for a reason and they don't want to talk

480
00:29:39,365 --> 00:29:39,765
Speaker 2: about it.

481
00:29:39,805 --> 00:29:40,805
Speaker 1: They want to escape it.

482
00:29:41,845 --> 00:29:46,205
Speaker 2: I can't remember the first time that I saw James

483
00:29:46,245 --> 00:29:50,525
Speaker 2: showing any you know, I can't remember our relationship ever

484
00:29:50,525 --> 00:29:54,485
Speaker 2: being particularly happy, but I do remember the first time

485
00:29:55,485 --> 00:30:00,365
Speaker 2: he hit me, and I didn't think that I needed

486
00:30:00,365 --> 00:30:05,765
Speaker 2: to leave or question, And sadly, a lot of the

487
00:30:05,805 --> 00:30:09,765
Speaker 2: people in the pub were exposed to our volatility. They

488
00:30:09,845 --> 00:30:14,805
Speaker 2: knew of the domestic violence. Do people step forward? I

489
00:30:14,845 --> 00:30:19,245
Speaker 2: don't know if that's their responsibility, But again I normalized

490
00:30:19,245 --> 00:30:25,245
Speaker 2: it because it was punishing me. And I just remember

491
00:30:25,325 --> 00:30:28,405
Speaker 2: him and as the book line in the book says,

492
00:30:29,125 --> 00:30:31,485
Speaker 2: when he was talking to a bunch of locals, he

493
00:30:31,805 --> 00:30:34,525
Speaker 2: turned to me and said, is there any wonder that

494
00:30:34,645 --> 00:30:36,685
Speaker 2: I don't want to have sets with that?

495
00:30:37,405 --> 00:30:37,765
Speaker 4: Yes?

496
00:30:37,925 --> 00:30:40,165
Speaker 1: And I never told James about my diagnosis.

497
00:30:40,165 --> 00:30:43,245
Speaker 4: But a friend deed, one friend that you had to

498
00:30:43,285 --> 00:30:45,565
Speaker 4: share that. We've told him.

499
00:30:46,005 --> 00:30:48,045
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, out of spite.

500
00:30:48,085 --> 00:30:50,445
Speaker 2: She was really angry with me, and she walked up

501
00:30:50,485 --> 00:30:52,965
Speaker 2: to him and told him that, you know your girlfriend

502
00:30:53,045 --> 00:30:55,445
Speaker 2: was born without a vagina and a womb.

503
00:30:55,725 --> 00:31:02,845
Speaker 1: You're going out with a free And.

504
00:31:00,845 --> 00:31:03,885
Speaker 2: Again, this is the sad thing about where I was

505
00:31:03,925 --> 00:31:07,685
Speaker 2: in relationships. I just I never thought I should leave,

506
00:31:08,805 --> 00:31:11,205
Speaker 2: and I and I begged him to whenever he wanted

507
00:31:11,205 --> 00:31:13,725
Speaker 2: to end a relationship, because he knew it was so dysfunctional.

508
00:31:14,245 --> 00:31:18,245
Speaker 2: I begged him to stay, and he did, and the

509
00:31:18,325 --> 00:31:19,605
Speaker 2: violence just got.

510
00:31:19,445 --> 00:31:20,245
Speaker 1: Worse and worse.

511
00:31:20,765 --> 00:31:25,005
Speaker 3: You ended up then setting yourself free to a certain extent,

512
00:31:25,085 --> 00:31:29,085
Speaker 3: and you ended up in Australia where you became a house.

513
00:31:29,245 --> 00:31:32,485
Speaker 3: Really for a period of time, you were in BONDI

514
00:31:33,685 --> 00:31:40,125
Speaker 3: kind of living the dream with another man called Tom.

515
00:31:40,805 --> 00:31:44,085
Speaker 1: Didn't buy tone. I didn't leave.

516
00:31:44,525 --> 00:31:46,845
Speaker 2: I didn't go to Australia because I wanted to be

517
00:31:46,885 --> 00:31:49,925
Speaker 2: set free. I went to Australia to because I was

518
00:31:49,925 --> 00:31:53,445
Speaker 2: on the run. And my mum was born in Sydney

519
00:31:54,125 --> 00:31:57,605
Speaker 2: and she left Australia in her early twenties because she

520
00:31:57,685 --> 00:32:00,965
Speaker 2: was on the run from her past and her trauma.

521
00:32:01,365 --> 00:32:04,485
Speaker 2: And I had citizenship, so it was no problem with

522
00:32:04,605 --> 00:32:09,525
Speaker 2: me going. And we had this really shitty apartment in

523
00:32:09,525 --> 00:32:11,725
Speaker 2: Elizabeth Bay. And I shouldn't say that, because Elizabeth Bay

524
00:32:11,805 --> 00:32:14,805
Speaker 2: is gorgeous in Sydney if you know it, of course

525
00:32:14,845 --> 00:32:17,445
Speaker 2: it is. But I was working for this really bad

526
00:32:17,525 --> 00:32:20,725
Speaker 2: tech company. I don't know what I was doing. I

527
00:32:20,805 --> 00:32:24,965
Speaker 2: wasn't living the dream for I want to say a

528
00:32:24,965 --> 00:32:28,125
Speaker 2: good number of years. We ended up moving to BONDI

529
00:32:30,085 --> 00:32:33,365
Speaker 2: I'm blessed Tom because we've reconnected since the book. So

530
00:32:33,365 --> 00:32:35,365
Speaker 2: I want to be kind. I think it's always important

531
00:32:35,405 --> 00:32:40,165
Speaker 2: to protect those in your book. But there was a

532
00:32:40,165 --> 00:32:45,765
Speaker 2: certain amount of control there. I wasn't I wasn't allowed

533
00:32:47,045 --> 00:32:51,965
Speaker 2: to go out to the beach or in icebergs the

534
00:32:52,045 --> 00:32:52,885
Speaker 2: gorgeous pool.

535
00:32:53,845 --> 00:32:57,765
Speaker 1: Only after a few years swimmers with the swimmers, I

536
00:32:57,765 --> 00:32:58,485
Speaker 1: couldn't believe it.

537
00:32:59,285 --> 00:33:01,325
Speaker 2: And I'm not like if I'm not very good at

538
00:33:01,365 --> 00:33:03,325
Speaker 2: being like gorgeous and glamorous.

539
00:33:03,365 --> 00:33:06,125
Speaker 1: But I felt very at home now. I felt like

540
00:33:06,445 --> 00:33:08,925
Speaker 1: the water is God. The water is so much.

541
00:33:08,965 --> 00:33:10,725
Speaker 2: I have no water where I live in England, and

542
00:33:11,365 --> 00:33:12,365
Speaker 2: doesn't it take a toll?

543
00:33:14,445 --> 00:33:15,165
Speaker 1: But I had I.

544
00:33:15,125 --> 00:33:18,645
Speaker 2: Had to be home before he woke up, and I

545
00:33:18,645 --> 00:33:21,005
Speaker 2: would make sure that everything was in place for him

546
00:33:21,205 --> 00:33:24,125
Speaker 2: waking up before we went to work in the city.

547
00:33:24,165 --> 00:33:25,725
Speaker 1: I'd have to get his clothes ready.

548
00:33:25,725 --> 00:33:28,285
Speaker 2: I'd have to make sure that if it was winter,

549
00:33:28,405 --> 00:33:30,085
Speaker 2: I would he have to heat the clothes on the

550
00:33:30,085 --> 00:33:32,405
Speaker 2: heater so they were warm when he put them on.

551
00:33:32,525 --> 00:33:35,445
Speaker 2: And if there wasn't the bus pass in his wallets,

552
00:33:36,645 --> 00:33:39,125
Speaker 2: you know, God forbid when we got the three three three,

553
00:33:39,205 --> 00:33:41,765
Speaker 2: and that's that's the Bondi rocket, the you know the

554
00:33:41,765 --> 00:33:44,245
Speaker 2: bus that goes in and out of Bondi and he

555
00:33:44,445 --> 00:33:47,645
Speaker 2: again ended it. And this is the tragic thing. Even

556
00:33:47,685 --> 00:33:50,765
Speaker 2: though I knew these relationships weren't supposed to be, I

557
00:33:50,805 --> 00:33:53,725
Speaker 2: still didn't want to be alone and I didn't want

558
00:33:53,765 --> 00:33:58,485
Speaker 2: to be rejected and he did. And I was at

559
00:33:58,525 --> 00:34:00,565
Speaker 2: a junction because I thought, well, I can either go

560
00:34:00,645 --> 00:34:04,125
Speaker 2: back to the UK, where my mum is, my my

561
00:34:04,205 --> 00:34:06,325
Speaker 2: dad is my that's my motherland.

562
00:34:06,725 --> 00:34:08,445
Speaker 1: But I felt actually.

563
00:34:09,485 --> 00:34:14,325
Speaker 2: Home in Bondai and I thought, this is this is it,

564
00:34:14,405 --> 00:34:18,685
Speaker 2: This is the time where you've got to choose life

565
00:34:19,165 --> 00:34:24,445
Speaker 2: or repeated crap. And I found a yoga studio, which

566
00:34:24,485 --> 00:34:28,405
Speaker 2: we know they're beautifully in abundance of in Bondai and

567
00:34:28,765 --> 00:34:32,405
Speaker 2: it was this very cute you were doing bikram. Yeah,

568
00:34:32,445 --> 00:34:34,565
Speaker 2: I love Biram. I wanted to be a bitcroom teacher.

569
00:34:34,605 --> 00:34:36,485
Speaker 2: Actually I think everyone wanted to be a bit croom

570
00:34:36,565 --> 00:34:39,125
Speaker 2: teacher at one point. But I got really bad XMA

571
00:34:39,245 --> 00:34:42,765
Speaker 2: through the heat because I was practicing so much and

572
00:34:42,045 --> 00:34:45,565
Speaker 2: I couldn't practice anymore. I would crawl my legs to

573
00:34:45,605 --> 00:34:47,205
Speaker 2: the word red raw bit.

574
00:34:47,925 --> 00:34:48,445
Speaker 1: But I loved it.

575
00:34:48,525 --> 00:34:50,925
Speaker 2: I used to learn all like the twenty six postures.

576
00:34:50,965 --> 00:34:53,485
Speaker 2: I was learning the pig in English. I was saving

577
00:34:53,565 --> 00:34:56,005
Speaker 2: up to go to one of the trainings, but yeah,

578
00:34:56,005 --> 00:34:56,645
Speaker 2: that took.

579
00:34:56,405 --> 00:34:57,965
Speaker 1: Home and I was like, oh my god, my yoga

580
00:34:58,005 --> 00:34:58,645
Speaker 1: life is over.

581
00:34:59,125 --> 00:35:02,445
Speaker 2: But then I found a really cool one very sweet

582
00:35:02,485 --> 00:35:06,525
Speaker 2: intimate studio in Bondai and oh my lord, you know

583
00:35:07,445 --> 00:35:11,365
Speaker 2: talk about talk about your cho in chapel. That really

584
00:35:11,685 --> 00:35:15,445
Speaker 2: was it. And someone said to me, Ali, be prepared.

585
00:35:15,925 --> 00:35:18,445
Speaker 2: The more you do yoga, the more your life is

586
00:35:18,525 --> 00:35:20,805
Speaker 2: going to change. And that terrified me because I don't

587
00:35:20,885 --> 00:35:25,805
Speaker 2: like change, despite always trying to instigate change, and that,

588
00:35:26,605 --> 00:35:30,405
Speaker 2: you know, the relationship ended. I never wanted him back.

589
00:35:30,525 --> 00:35:32,925
Speaker 2: That's the wonderful thing about a relationship ending when you

590
00:35:32,965 --> 00:35:35,645
Speaker 2: know it's right. I kind of did a bit of begging.

591
00:35:35,685 --> 00:35:37,525
Speaker 2: I think I drank a bottle of champagne and phoned

592
00:35:37,565 --> 00:35:40,925
Speaker 2: him at midday, but he didn't of course, didn't answer.

593
00:35:42,085 --> 00:35:46,845
Speaker 2: And I found an amazing group of friends. Amy Malloy,

594
00:35:46,925 --> 00:35:49,685
Speaker 2: who I can say edited my book, My very close

595
00:35:50,805 --> 00:35:55,685
Speaker 2: bestest of friends in Bondai, and she had and has

596
00:35:55,725 --> 00:35:59,765
Speaker 2: obviously you know, telegraphed this through her work, has gone

597
00:35:59,805 --> 00:36:04,165
Speaker 2: through her own trauma, and she took me under her wing.

598
00:36:04,565 --> 00:36:07,525
Speaker 2: She introduced me to these incredible women who have had

599
00:36:07,525 --> 00:36:09,805
Speaker 2: their past, who know what it's like to her grit

600
00:36:10,205 --> 00:36:12,885
Speaker 2: but want to do something really purposeful with it. We

601
00:36:12,925 --> 00:36:16,725
Speaker 2: went to yoga studios everywhere. We were drinking chai lattes everywhere,

602
00:36:16,765 --> 00:36:20,285
Speaker 2: like it was such an a magical time, and I

603
00:36:20,325 --> 00:36:23,805
Speaker 2: think my parents got it that it was my time

604
00:36:24,325 --> 00:36:27,685
Speaker 2: to find out who Ali is without, you know, and

605
00:36:27,725 --> 00:36:31,485
Speaker 2: also to figure out what the fuck happened with me

606
00:36:31,565 --> 00:36:36,605
Speaker 2: and my vagina story, like what trauma had it caused me? Uh,

607
00:36:36,645 --> 00:36:38,365
Speaker 2: And so I feel like I've all the places were

608
00:36:38,365 --> 00:36:41,445
Speaker 2: footing in. I developed the Sisters for Love, a market

609
00:36:41,685 --> 00:36:46,685
Speaker 2: foundation which subsequently has been rebranded to a markh Australia.

610
00:36:47,165 --> 00:36:49,405
Speaker 2: I was on you know, the Telly. I was working

611
00:36:49,405 --> 00:36:52,325
Speaker 2: with researchers. I was helping women. Every night, would be

612
00:36:52,365 --> 00:36:56,965
Speaker 2: phone calls, fundraising, developing programs for young people around sex

613
00:36:56,965 --> 00:36:59,365
Speaker 2: and intimacy and mental health.

614
00:36:59,485 --> 00:37:01,725
Speaker 1: And it just flourished.

615
00:37:02,325 --> 00:37:08,805
Speaker 2: It was so amaz us best best era of my life.

616
00:37:09,645 --> 00:37:10,405
Speaker 4: After the break.

617
00:37:10,525 --> 00:37:15,085
Speaker 3: Allie reveals how the yoga matt became her therapy and

618
00:37:15,205 --> 00:37:23,005
Speaker 3: takes us through her experience of IVF. It's very interesting

619
00:37:23,085 --> 00:37:29,285
Speaker 3: to me that the yoga, which is physicality, unlocked something

620
00:37:29,445 --> 00:37:32,645
Speaker 3: in you because there had been so much shame attached

621
00:37:32,685 --> 00:37:36,485
Speaker 3: to your physicality. Do you think that that was a

622
00:37:36,605 --> 00:37:41,085
Speaker 3: key to then this openness that you brought to the world,

623
00:37:41,285 --> 00:37:46,525
Speaker 3: are basically no longer not even not keeping a secret

624
00:37:46,565 --> 00:37:48,805
Speaker 3: but bellowing it from the rooftops.

625
00:37:50,165 --> 00:37:54,125
Speaker 2: It was my yoga mut was my therapist. They always

626
00:37:54,165 --> 00:37:58,845
Speaker 2: say that the the the asagnas, the postures, they're sort

627
00:37:58,845 --> 00:38:02,805
Speaker 2: of incidental. The strength that you build isn't esthetic. You know,

628
00:38:02,925 --> 00:38:06,765
Speaker 2: being contortionist isn't the purpose of yoga, but great if

629
00:38:06,765 --> 00:38:11,805
Speaker 2: you get there. I was a self harmer, as I

630
00:38:11,885 --> 00:38:15,845
Speaker 2: mentioned before, and I don't really want to go into,

631
00:38:15,965 --> 00:38:17,365
Speaker 2: of course, how I did it.

632
00:38:17,405 --> 00:38:19,765
Speaker 1: That's not something i'd want to sort of share out there.

633
00:38:19,805 --> 00:38:25,045
Speaker 2: But I'm very scarred, let's say, from that and living

634
00:38:25,085 --> 00:38:28,045
Speaker 2: in Australia in a climate, physically physically scarred.

635
00:38:28,045 --> 00:38:29,485
Speaker 1: You could look at my arms.

636
00:38:29,245 --> 00:38:32,885
Speaker 2: And there's it's like an a board for self harm

637
00:38:33,805 --> 00:38:37,845
Speaker 2: in a yoga space or even you know, in a bikini.

638
00:38:38,325 --> 00:38:40,805
Speaker 2: I know people are looking at my arms and I

639
00:38:40,885 --> 00:38:45,685
Speaker 2: have to really try to not I don't say want

640
00:38:45,725 --> 00:38:50,005
Speaker 2: to react, but I need to feel them looking because

641
00:38:50,045 --> 00:38:52,765
Speaker 2: I want. I don't want to hide, and maybe that

642
00:38:52,925 --> 00:38:55,205
Speaker 2: is part of it. I didn't want to physically hide,

643
00:38:55,605 --> 00:38:58,045
Speaker 2: and I think in that yoga mat they always say

644
00:38:59,445 --> 00:39:00,925
Speaker 2: the first thing you might want to do after a

645
00:39:00,925 --> 00:39:04,565
Speaker 2: really difficult posture, or you can't breathe or your your

646
00:39:04,645 --> 00:39:07,285
Speaker 2: muscles are aching, is you want to run and it

647
00:39:07,365 --> 00:39:11,285
Speaker 2: teaches you not to run. And I remember this really

648
00:39:11,605 --> 00:39:15,405
Speaker 2: wonderful yoga teacher said that when you're saying, I don't

649
00:39:15,405 --> 00:39:18,365
Speaker 2: know if people know that the chair pose where you're

650
00:39:18,365 --> 00:39:21,965
Speaker 2: basically sitting on it in a visible chair, and your yeah,

651
00:39:21,485 --> 00:39:25,285
Speaker 2: your thighs, yeah, your thighs are burning. Everything feels weird,

652
00:39:25,365 --> 00:39:28,925
Speaker 2: like tuck in your ribs, bend your thing, doda feet together,

653
00:39:29,205 --> 00:39:32,125
Speaker 2: and you're like, fuck me, and I just wanted to

654
00:39:32,165 --> 00:39:34,125
Speaker 2: go and you just want to run out of that pose.

655
00:39:34,885 --> 00:39:38,285
Speaker 2: The body doesn't distinguish what you're doing at the time

656
00:39:38,365 --> 00:39:41,285
Speaker 2: of that particular difficulty. It doesn't know that it's doing

657
00:39:41,325 --> 00:39:43,765
Speaker 2: a yoga pose anymore than it doesn't know that it's

658
00:39:43,765 --> 00:39:48,245
Speaker 2: going through a injury on a bike, or it doesn't

659
00:39:48,285 --> 00:39:51,445
Speaker 2: know that it's not going through absolute heartbreak. The body

660
00:39:51,525 --> 00:39:53,765
Speaker 2: doesn't know what's happening outside.

661
00:39:53,925 --> 00:39:55,365
Speaker 1: It just knows hard.

662
00:39:56,525 --> 00:39:58,845
Speaker 2: And if you can teach yourself to go through the hard,

663
00:39:59,045 --> 00:40:01,965
Speaker 2: not necessarily through pain, but the point where you want

664
00:40:01,965 --> 00:40:06,245
Speaker 2: to go, go through that, because when you get outside

665
00:40:06,285 --> 00:40:08,685
Speaker 2: into the real world, you'll feel that pain again, you'll

666
00:40:08,685 --> 00:40:12,405
Speaker 2: feel that desire to run, and you don't because you

667
00:40:12,445 --> 00:40:13,565
Speaker 2: know you can sustain it.

668
00:40:14,325 --> 00:40:15,965
Speaker 1: So my yoga studio.

669
00:40:15,685 --> 00:40:22,645
Speaker 2: Has seen breakups, breakdowns, meltdowns, But there is something incredibly

670
00:40:22,645 --> 00:40:25,965
Speaker 2: special that people who go to a yoga studio are

671
00:40:26,005 --> 00:40:27,845
Speaker 2: not going to get fit per se.

672
00:40:28,205 --> 00:40:29,205
Speaker 1: It's a byproduct.

673
00:40:29,765 --> 00:40:32,205
Speaker 2: Most people land in a yoga studio over a gym

674
00:40:32,405 --> 00:40:34,005
Speaker 2: because they're working some shit out.

675
00:40:34,325 --> 00:40:35,565
Speaker 1: And there is nothing.

676
00:40:35,285 --> 00:40:42,365
Speaker 2: More spiritually exciting than rubbing shoulders with people who are

677
00:40:42,405 --> 00:40:46,045
Speaker 2: going through stuff because it makes your stuff feel less stuffy.

678
00:40:47,125 --> 00:40:50,565
Speaker 3: Yes, and you had found that with your girlfriend Amy,

679
00:40:51,645 --> 00:40:53,325
Speaker 3: And was it Drew?

680
00:40:53,845 --> 00:40:54,805
Speaker 4: Was it in that.

681
00:40:54,805 --> 00:41:00,685
Speaker 3: Period that you decided to explore your infertility slash fertility?

682
00:41:02,605 --> 00:41:06,445
Speaker 2: I was dating I think how old was I? Early

683
00:41:06,525 --> 00:41:11,725
Speaker 2: thirties let's say mid thirties. Amy had the thing about

684
00:41:11,725 --> 00:41:15,765
Speaker 2: Amy and I were that despite having two very different

685
00:41:15,805 --> 00:41:18,605
Speaker 2: lives in a way married. She had her first child.

686
00:41:18,885 --> 00:41:21,965
Speaker 2: I was very single, very far away from having my

687
00:41:22,005 --> 00:41:25,565
Speaker 2: first child. We always talked about the things that some

688
00:41:25,605 --> 00:41:27,845
Speaker 2: friends don't want to talk about that could cause a

689
00:41:27,925 --> 00:41:32,325
Speaker 2: jealousy or a discomfort or an inequality. Let's say, Amy

690
00:41:32,325 --> 00:41:34,965
Speaker 2: and I's skill was always addressing the hard stuff like

691
00:41:34,965 --> 00:41:38,685
Speaker 2: a normal conversation and blessed Luke.

692
00:41:38,925 --> 00:41:42,485
Speaker 1: I met Luke on a dating app in Bondis.

693
00:41:43,285 --> 00:41:47,765
Speaker 2: Bingo Swipe Swipe, Swipes Swipe. I thought it would be easy.

694
00:41:47,765 --> 00:41:49,525
Speaker 2: When I came up a ten year relationship, I was like, Oh,

695
00:41:49,525 --> 00:41:51,845
Speaker 2: this is easy. That's an amazing man. How hard is

696
00:41:51,885 --> 00:41:55,725
Speaker 2: this going to be? Three years later, I really really

697
00:41:55,845 --> 00:41:58,605
Speaker 2: liked Luke, but of course Luke and I realized that

698
00:41:58,605 --> 00:42:02,525
Speaker 2: we probably weren't in the same relationship. But there is

699
00:42:02,605 --> 00:42:05,605
Speaker 2: a biological clock and it will time. Whether you want

700
00:42:05,645 --> 00:42:09,725
Speaker 2: to answer it or not. Biology will say to you

701
00:42:09,885 --> 00:42:12,005
Speaker 2: or ask you to ask the question do I want

702
00:42:12,085 --> 00:42:12,565
Speaker 2: a child?

703
00:42:13,245 --> 00:42:14,685
Speaker 1: I had been hovering around.

704
00:42:14,485 --> 00:42:19,365
Speaker 2: Some amazing research and doctors and surgeons for a long time.

705
00:42:19,485 --> 00:42:24,245
Speaker 2: I was very confident in that space of reproductive medicine

706
00:42:24,365 --> 00:42:28,125
Speaker 2: or family planning, but I still didn't have mine forever

707
00:42:28,205 --> 00:42:30,605
Speaker 2: after so I thought, well, I could go and get

708
00:42:30,605 --> 00:42:34,405
Speaker 2: my eggs frozen. Being in a very well paid job,

709
00:42:34,485 --> 00:42:37,885
Speaker 2: despite whether it gave me, it gave me no joy,

710
00:42:38,005 --> 00:42:40,005
Speaker 2: to be honest, but it did afford me bondaye and

711
00:42:40,045 --> 00:42:45,245
Speaker 2: afforded me savings because I knew that seregacy, where opting

712
00:42:45,285 --> 00:42:48,405
Speaker 2: for somebody else to carry your child, was going to

713
00:42:48,445 --> 00:42:50,205
Speaker 2: cost me a hell of a lot of money. You're

714
00:42:50,245 --> 00:42:55,645
Speaker 2: talking sort of north of fifty thousand, eighty thousand dollars.

715
00:42:56,285 --> 00:42:59,445
Speaker 2: And I did all the I started the process. We

716
00:42:59,485 --> 00:43:01,765
Speaker 2: actually went to IVF Australia and Amy was in the

717
00:43:01,765 --> 00:43:04,045
Speaker 2: waiting room with me, and she was pregnant, which is

718
00:43:04,485 --> 00:43:07,965
Speaker 2: a tragic irony or a beautiful irony, let's say. And

719
00:43:08,045 --> 00:43:10,445
Speaker 2: I went in and said, because you've got m r

720
00:43:10,485 --> 00:43:12,725
Speaker 2: k H, it's going to be trickier. We don't know

721
00:43:12,765 --> 00:43:15,165
Speaker 2: when your cycle is, we don't know the state of

722
00:43:15,165 --> 00:43:19,005
Speaker 2: your ovaries. They could be underdeveloped. And I thought, this

723
00:43:19,045 --> 00:43:21,285
Speaker 2: isn't going to be easy at all. And I knew

724
00:43:21,325 --> 00:43:23,645
Speaker 2: it wouldn't be easy, but I still was doing alone.

725
00:43:24,085 --> 00:43:27,365
Speaker 2: And I did muster up the confidence to tell Lee

726
00:43:27,365 --> 00:43:30,205
Speaker 2: go the spaghetti bolonnies one night that I was thinking

727
00:43:30,245 --> 00:43:34,525
Speaker 2: about having my eggs praising, and he said and paused,

728
00:43:35,645 --> 00:43:38,325
Speaker 2: I I think that's a really great idea for you

729
00:43:38,405 --> 00:43:39,365
Speaker 2: and your future partner.

730
00:43:39,725 --> 00:43:41,645
Speaker 1: And then I was like, holy fu, I'm gonna have

731
00:43:41,645 --> 00:43:42,485
Speaker 1: to do this alone.

732
00:43:43,125 --> 00:43:48,085
Speaker 2: I know, oh together.

733
00:43:48,365 --> 00:43:51,685
Speaker 3: He stayed with him after that, and also you sent

734
00:43:51,805 --> 00:43:54,045
Speaker 3: the book that he was also sleeping with other people.

735
00:43:55,605 --> 00:43:58,205
Speaker 2: Delightful discovery delightful discovery.

736
00:43:58,245 --> 00:43:59,005
Speaker 1: Bless him.

737
00:43:59,325 --> 00:44:03,125
Speaker 2: I had I'd gone around a conference and I came

738
00:44:03,165 --> 00:44:05,965
Speaker 2: back and it was the night before my birthday, and

739
00:44:06,245 --> 00:44:09,965
Speaker 2: he looked really twitchy, and he said, got something to

740
00:44:10,005 --> 00:44:12,285
Speaker 2: tell you. I slept with someone else when I might

741
00:44:12,325 --> 00:44:16,725
Speaker 2: have gonorrhea, and I thought, and I think it was.

742
00:44:16,885 --> 00:44:20,005
Speaker 2: And he was nervous because he knew that we couldn't

743
00:44:20,005 --> 00:44:23,685
Speaker 2: have sex on my birthday. I was nervous because my

744
00:44:23,765 --> 00:44:27,245
Speaker 2: heart had just been broken. But yeah, didn't leave. He

745
00:44:27,725 --> 00:44:32,525
Speaker 2: left me. Actually, yeah he did, which is again, we

746
00:44:32,645 --> 00:44:34,885
Speaker 2: still talk. I don't have an ex out there, apart

747
00:44:34,885 --> 00:44:36,845
Speaker 2: from maybe one or two that I don't have a

748
00:44:36,845 --> 00:44:39,005
Speaker 2: conversation with now and again. And I pride myself on

749
00:44:39,045 --> 00:44:41,405
Speaker 2: that wonderful way of exiting relationships.

750
00:44:41,405 --> 00:44:43,125
Speaker 1: Maybe I like to keep doors open, I don't know.

751
00:44:43,645 --> 00:44:44,965
Speaker 4: But he was out the.

752
00:44:44,925 --> 00:44:47,925
Speaker 2: Picture, and I thought, I'm still going to try to

753
00:44:47,965 --> 00:44:49,445
Speaker 2: do this egg retrieval process.

754
00:44:50,085 --> 00:44:51,645
Speaker 1: And you know what, I just couldn't.

755
00:44:52,205 --> 00:44:55,005
Speaker 2: I couldn't wrap my head around not having the perfect picture.

756
00:44:55,805 --> 00:44:58,605
Speaker 2: I thought, I don't want to be doing this alone.

757
00:44:58,685 --> 00:45:01,605
Speaker 2: I want the Maybe it's a bit I don't know, Disney.

758
00:45:01,725 --> 00:45:05,365
Speaker 3: I wanted the perfect picture for you was to do

759
00:45:05,405 --> 00:45:07,045
Speaker 3: it with somebody.

760
00:45:06,845 --> 00:45:07,765
Speaker 1: To create a family.

761
00:45:08,005 --> 00:45:10,165
Speaker 2: I wanted that, and I think I I wanted I

762
00:45:10,205 --> 00:45:13,445
Speaker 2: think I wanted a relationship to be happy more than

763
00:45:13,445 --> 00:45:15,525
Speaker 2: I wanted a child, if that makes sense.

764
00:45:15,605 --> 00:45:17,805
Speaker 1: I wanted the whole dynamic.

765
00:45:18,005 --> 00:45:22,125
Speaker 2: I don't think that my motherly instincts were as strong enough.

766
00:45:21,925 --> 00:45:22,645
Speaker 1: To do it alone.

767
00:45:22,685 --> 00:45:27,685
Speaker 2: And I couldn't fathom how transactional fertility was when I

768
00:45:27,725 --> 00:45:31,485
Speaker 2: was handed sort of the FPOs machine for my next

769
00:45:31,485 --> 00:45:34,045
Speaker 2: load of bloods, and it's like, this doesn't this feels

770
00:45:34,085 --> 00:45:37,125
Speaker 2: icky to me. This isn't how I wanted to play out.

771
00:45:37,205 --> 00:45:41,965
Speaker 2: And I went to the IVF clinic for my last

772
00:45:41,965 --> 00:45:44,365
Speaker 2: time and I didn't tell them it was over. But

773
00:45:44,445 --> 00:45:46,845
Speaker 2: I phoned my mum, who I used to phone every

774
00:45:46,925 --> 00:45:50,605
Speaker 2: day in Australia, for a good two hours and I said,

775
00:45:50,645 --> 00:45:52,085
Speaker 2: I don't know what to do, and she's like, Alie,

776
00:45:52,165 --> 00:45:54,405
Speaker 2: this isn't this is one that I can't answer for you.

777
00:45:55,325 --> 00:45:57,805
Speaker 2: And then I went home that night and I just thought,

778
00:45:58,005 --> 00:46:00,285
Speaker 2: now this isn't for me. I put all the files

779
00:46:00,325 --> 00:46:04,045
Speaker 2: in the bin. I cried profusely and that was the end.

780
00:46:04,085 --> 00:46:06,245
Speaker 1: And I did have a big thing. I actually had

781
00:46:06,285 --> 00:46:08,285
Speaker 1: a surrogate ah lined up.

782
00:46:09,485 --> 00:46:11,885
Speaker 2: Yes, but I said, I think your uterus and your

783
00:46:11,925 --> 00:46:16,725
Speaker 2: womb is better placed with somebody else for this gift.

784
00:46:16,965 --> 00:46:19,485
Speaker 1: Would I wouldn't be taking it for the right reasons.

785
00:46:20,405 --> 00:46:24,405
Speaker 3: One of your friends said something so beautiful to you

786
00:46:25,285 --> 00:46:28,685
Speaker 3: that I had to write it down. The world needs

787
00:46:28,765 --> 00:46:35,605
Speaker 3: all sorts of mothers, teachers, educators, storytellers, and healers. That's

788
00:46:35,645 --> 00:46:39,365
Speaker 3: what the world needs. And so you decided to step

789
00:46:39,685 --> 00:46:41,245
Speaker 3: further into that space.

790
00:46:42,285 --> 00:46:43,165
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely.

791
00:46:44,085 --> 00:46:47,605
Speaker 2: She was and is an incredible doctor, but also went

792
00:46:47,645 --> 00:46:51,645
Speaker 2: to the same yoga studio as me, and she could

793
00:46:51,645 --> 00:46:52,245
Speaker 2: see the pain.

794
00:46:52,485 --> 00:46:54,005
Speaker 1: And you know, I was heartbroken.

795
00:46:54,685 --> 00:46:57,525
Speaker 2: I lost a baby, idea of a baby, and a

796
00:46:57,525 --> 00:47:01,525
Speaker 2: boyfriend within months of each other. And that's when I've

797
00:47:01,565 --> 00:47:05,725
Speaker 2: really started looking into the word woman and realizing that

798
00:47:06,325 --> 00:47:09,765
Speaker 2: the world does need all types of women in all

799
00:47:09,805 --> 00:47:13,165
Speaker 2: types of roles. And my role wasn't to be a

800
00:47:13,205 --> 00:47:16,965
Speaker 2: biological mother to a child. My role was to and

801
00:47:17,005 --> 00:47:19,805
Speaker 2: I don't want to sort of this sounds very matriarchal,

802
00:47:19,925 --> 00:47:23,885
Speaker 2: but not to the women of MRKH, but to guide

803
00:47:23,925 --> 00:47:27,485
Speaker 2: people through what you can do if you don't tick

804
00:47:27,645 --> 00:47:33,965
Speaker 2: certain boxes. And we have to have holistic versions of womanhood.

805
00:47:34,485 --> 00:47:37,045
Speaker 2: They always say, don't they you need to experience all

806
00:47:37,085 --> 00:47:40,045
Speaker 2: the bad stuff in life to have the good stuff

807
00:47:40,045 --> 00:47:43,085
Speaker 2: in life. And I think the work that I've done

808
00:47:43,125 --> 00:47:46,125
Speaker 2: and doing more than ever actually right now, I'm so

809
00:47:46,125 --> 00:47:49,685
Speaker 2: so passionate about what it means the dismantle the word woman,

810
00:47:49,925 --> 00:47:52,525
Speaker 2: especially in the political climate that we're in, especially in

811
00:47:52,605 --> 00:47:54,925
Speaker 2: the UK, about the ruling of what a woman is.

812
00:47:56,365 --> 00:48:00,005
Speaker 2: So if you're not necessarily a parent to a child,

813
00:48:00,085 --> 00:48:03,845
Speaker 2: there will be someone out there who needs mothering. There

814
00:48:04,005 --> 00:48:06,405
Speaker 2: is a book that someone needs to read, and you

815
00:48:06,445 --> 00:48:09,005
Speaker 2: could be the storyteller of that, which is another form

816
00:48:09,045 --> 00:48:12,805
Speaker 2: of we need the leaders to guide. You know, they

817
00:48:13,165 --> 00:48:17,325
Speaker 2: set after the pandemic that the women were being well.

818
00:48:18,085 --> 00:48:20,645
Speaker 2: I don't I want to use this statistic loosely, but

819
00:48:20,805 --> 00:48:24,245
Speaker 2: the encouragement of having women back in leadership roles with

820
00:48:24,325 --> 00:48:27,045
Speaker 2: the emotional intelligence that the world was needing after a

821
00:48:27,085 --> 00:48:32,165
Speaker 2: pandemic was so more needed than your typical version maybe prior.

822
00:48:32,925 --> 00:48:36,765
Speaker 2: And so yeah, that line is beautiful because it was.

823
00:48:38,845 --> 00:48:43,845
Speaker 2: I think I just felt a huge surrendering in acceptance.

824
00:48:44,485 --> 00:48:51,205
Speaker 4: But your quest for love continued after that.

825
00:48:51,565 --> 00:48:54,885
Speaker 3: Was when I was reading your book, I was like,

826
00:48:55,365 --> 00:48:57,925
Speaker 3: we got to the rom com beat where you're at

827
00:48:57,925 --> 00:49:01,125
Speaker 3: a conference and you meet doctor Gregg, and I'm like,

828
00:49:01,245 --> 00:49:02,365
Speaker 3: this is perfect.

829
00:49:02,565 --> 00:49:03,325
Speaker 4: Here we go.

830
00:49:03,965 --> 00:49:07,125
Speaker 1: Hello, I know the power couple of imity. Trust me.

831
00:49:07,605 --> 00:49:13,165
Speaker 2: I ignore every red flag that was running towards me

832
00:49:13,725 --> 00:49:17,605
Speaker 2: because I thought that this has to be has to

833
00:49:17,645 --> 00:49:21,605
Speaker 2: be surely a going to cologist. Surely who helps women

834
00:49:21,645 --> 00:49:23,885
Speaker 2: have been Surely who's passionate.

835
00:49:23,565 --> 00:49:26,285
Speaker 4: About Hell no, no.

836
00:49:27,925 --> 00:49:29,445
Speaker 1: Difference in the world of love.

837
00:49:29,685 --> 00:49:30,445
Speaker 2: But you learned the.

838
00:49:30,485 --> 00:49:31,965
Speaker 4: Lesson quicker this time.

839
00:49:32,165 --> 00:49:35,325
Speaker 3: So amongst his other red flags were like that you

840
00:49:35,365 --> 00:49:37,925
Speaker 3: didn't go to his house and you wouldn't hear from

841
00:49:38,005 --> 00:49:41,405
Speaker 3: him for months, but when you saw each other, it

842
00:49:41,445 --> 00:49:44,485
Speaker 3: was amazing and explosive and you felt in that time,

843
00:49:44,685 --> 00:49:45,205
Speaker 3: I think.

844
00:49:45,045 --> 00:49:49,405
Speaker 4: You said, very like a woman. Yeah.

845
00:49:49,485 --> 00:49:53,445
Speaker 2: He and I explored sex and ways that I've never

846
00:49:53,645 --> 00:49:59,885
Speaker 2: explored before. One he was very I guess, confident and

847
00:50:00,325 --> 00:50:01,725
Speaker 2: diverse in that way.

848
00:50:02,405 --> 00:50:06,485
Speaker 3: Well, he was a gynecologist, so he knew everything.

849
00:50:06,685 --> 00:50:07,405
Speaker 1: Honestly he did.

850
00:50:08,405 --> 00:50:11,885
Speaker 2: He used to talk to him of about there's some

851
00:50:11,925 --> 00:50:15,525
Speaker 2: studies reveal, but then there's some studies that won't reveal,

852
00:50:15,645 --> 00:50:17,725
Speaker 2: or that sort of counter that that a woman can't

853
00:50:17,765 --> 00:50:20,845
Speaker 2: lubricate if she hasn't been born with a vaginal canal,

854
00:50:21,245 --> 00:50:25,045
Speaker 2: which is not true, or if you haven't got a womb,

855
00:50:25,045 --> 00:50:27,765
Speaker 2: you can't lubricate. So it was really interesting having these

856
00:50:27,885 --> 00:50:31,845
Speaker 2: very matter of fact conversations. I used to ask him

857
00:50:31,885 --> 00:50:34,685
Speaker 2: all sorts of vagina questions about can it do this?

858
00:50:35,325 --> 00:50:38,605
Speaker 2: You know, what's female ejaculation? How does that work? And

859
00:50:38,645 --> 00:50:41,125
Speaker 2: he's like, you know, every well, I don't know. Again

860
00:50:41,245 --> 00:50:43,925
Speaker 2: I quote him, every woman can do it if they

861
00:50:44,005 --> 00:50:46,085
Speaker 2: just get out of their heads. And so it was

862
00:50:46,125 --> 00:50:48,485
Speaker 2: these sort of conversations I was having it. It was

863
00:50:48,565 --> 00:50:51,685
Speaker 2: kind of liberating and it was glamorous, like there's a

864
00:50:51,725 --> 00:50:54,885
Speaker 2: doctor living the Byron Bay and you know, he's a

865
00:50:54,885 --> 00:50:58,485
Speaker 2: pioneering surgeon, and I'm attracted to that, but I'm also

866
00:50:58,525 --> 00:51:00,645
Speaker 2: attracted to people who make me work for it, and

867
00:51:01,685 --> 00:51:03,765
Speaker 2: he was someone who was not going to be easy

868
00:51:03,765 --> 00:51:07,645
Speaker 2: to win over and pretty easy then to leave. But

869
00:51:08,925 --> 00:51:13,485
Speaker 2: sexual that was a real, I don't know, turning point.

870
00:51:13,725 --> 00:51:17,045
Speaker 2: I think for me to also believe that my body

871
00:51:17,285 --> 00:51:22,165
Speaker 2: is desirable and I am fanciable and it can explore

872
00:51:22,205 --> 00:51:27,445
Speaker 2: pleasure and that's not bad. Pleasure isn't a guilty act

873
00:51:27,685 --> 00:51:29,525
Speaker 2: that we should feel. But then that goes back to

874
00:51:29,565 --> 00:51:32,365
Speaker 2: my vaginal dilation days, where pain was what I thought

875
00:51:33,165 --> 00:51:36,485
Speaker 2: was all it was down there. So the quest for

876
00:51:36,525 --> 00:51:39,805
Speaker 2: love always continues. Okay, that's my next book, no doubt.

877
00:51:40,445 --> 00:51:43,565
Speaker 3: Then you go back to the UK also to be

878
00:51:43,725 --> 00:51:49,565
Speaker 3: with your mum who's suffered stroke eight years previously, and

879
00:51:49,565 --> 00:51:51,005
Speaker 3: then a recurrence of that.

880
00:51:51,285 --> 00:51:57,765
Speaker 2: Yes, she had seizures out of nowhere. It was just random.

881
00:51:57,805 --> 00:52:00,085
Speaker 2: There was They didn't know why, much like they didn't

882
00:52:00,125 --> 00:52:04,005
Speaker 2: know why she had a stroke. Her relationship of twenty

883
00:52:04,085 --> 00:52:07,325
Speaker 2: five years was very tumultuous. And my mum has gone

884
00:52:07,405 --> 00:52:10,725
Speaker 2: through so much crap, like so much of her own

885
00:52:10,725 --> 00:52:14,245
Speaker 2: crap in her past. Her self esteem has been affected,

886
00:52:14,325 --> 00:52:17,685
Speaker 2: her sense of self worth, her need to apologize every

887
00:52:17,725 --> 00:52:18,365
Speaker 2: five minutes.

888
00:52:18,525 --> 00:52:20,125
Speaker 1: This is someone who's really.

889
00:52:19,885 --> 00:52:24,405
Speaker 2: Tried hard to feel safe in her world.

890
00:52:25,325 --> 00:52:28,765
Speaker 1: And I remember looking at her in.

891
00:52:28,965 --> 00:52:34,045
Speaker 2: ICU after the siegures and I thought, if you wake up,

892
00:52:34,925 --> 00:52:37,805
Speaker 2: this is when we changed your life. I've done my

893
00:52:38,005 --> 00:52:41,845
Speaker 2: fifteen years of running around Australia, I've had my glorified moments,

894
00:52:42,805 --> 00:52:45,725
Speaker 2: I've had me. I've given that time to me, and

895
00:52:45,925 --> 00:52:49,445
Speaker 2: now it's your turn. And she did, thank god, wake

896
00:52:49,565 --> 00:52:52,205
Speaker 2: up and made a great recovery. And then a month

897
00:52:52,285 --> 00:52:55,845
Speaker 2: later her relationship tied up and went to an end.

898
00:52:56,405 --> 00:52:59,165
Speaker 2: But as the book says, I had to choose between

899
00:52:59,725 --> 00:53:04,245
Speaker 2: keeping our house or having a baby, and I had

900
00:53:04,245 --> 00:53:06,805
Speaker 2: that money in the bank, and it was the most

901
00:53:07,245 --> 00:53:12,485
Speaker 2: soul destroying moment, knowing that I probably wouldn't have had

902
00:53:12,485 --> 00:53:14,925
Speaker 2: a child. I always had a little bit of hope

903
00:53:15,245 --> 00:53:20,045
Speaker 2: and choice in the bank, but we needed a home

904
00:53:20,645 --> 00:53:25,205
Speaker 2: and that was the choice I made. So goodbye as May.

905
00:53:26,805 --> 00:53:31,485
Speaker 3: As May you write the most beautiful letter to es

906
00:53:31,605 --> 00:53:33,245
Speaker 3: May your unborn daughter.

907
00:53:34,565 --> 00:53:38,965
Speaker 4: It was very moving. How was your mom?

908
00:53:39,525 --> 00:53:43,445
Speaker 3: Because I always think with fertility, it's not it's you,

909
00:53:43,845 --> 00:53:47,045
Speaker 3: but it's also the generation behind you, who often have

910
00:53:47,245 --> 00:53:50,605
Speaker 3: a hunger for it, on your behalf or on their behalf.

911
00:53:51,325 --> 00:54:00,725
Speaker 3: How is your mom during that period? Selfless or selfish? Selfless?

912
00:54:01,085 --> 00:54:05,125
Speaker 2: I have apologized to my parents for not giving them

913
00:54:06,285 --> 00:54:07,045
Speaker 2: a grandchild.

914
00:54:08,205 --> 00:54:12,085
Speaker 1: There is no guilt with them, there is no.

915
00:54:13,565 --> 00:54:17,685
Speaker 2: Sense of letting down or I have never been made

916
00:54:17,725 --> 00:54:20,645
Speaker 2: to feel that I've been inadequate in any way as

917
00:54:20,645 --> 00:54:24,205
Speaker 2: a child. I think they wish it for me, and

918
00:54:24,245 --> 00:54:28,005
Speaker 2: I think sometimes my brother has four children and I

919
00:54:28,045 --> 00:54:32,685
Speaker 2: don't have vulch. But also in the space of a child,

920
00:54:32,805 --> 00:54:34,565
Speaker 2: I knew that I had to create a lot of magic,

921
00:54:34,685 --> 00:54:36,485
Speaker 2: and I had to create a life that was really,

922
00:54:36,525 --> 00:54:40,805
Speaker 2: really exciting and really make it count. And that's what

923
00:54:40,845 --> 00:54:43,845
Speaker 2: I've done, and I've made my parents incredibly proud. And

924
00:54:43,885 --> 00:54:48,565
Speaker 2: I think that it's an absolute privilege to love someone

925
00:54:48,605 --> 00:54:51,365
Speaker 2: that much and to be loved by someone. So there's

926
00:54:51,365 --> 00:54:54,165
Speaker 2: no obligation in my life when it comes to my

927
00:54:54,245 --> 00:54:58,125
Speaker 2: parents of the people I have. But how was she

928
00:54:58,165 --> 00:55:03,605
Speaker 2: in that moment? Well, very sad. But we have our

929
00:55:03,645 --> 00:55:07,565
Speaker 2: house and we also have this lovely relationship that's full

930
00:55:07,605 --> 00:55:12,245
Speaker 2: circle now and she's very poorly at the moment, which

931
00:55:12,645 --> 00:55:16,645
Speaker 2: we're working through. But again, it's a privilege to have

932
00:55:16,725 --> 00:55:19,965
Speaker 2: someone that close that I love, never never atore.

933
00:55:21,125 --> 00:55:25,645
Speaker 3: And you also found you have no trouble finding loves

934
00:55:25,685 --> 00:55:31,485
Speaker 3: by the way to hold onto it? Well, sometimes I

935
00:55:31,485 --> 00:55:34,965
Speaker 3: think the right one holds onto you. You mede a

936
00:55:35,005 --> 00:55:38,565
Speaker 3: guy called Jack once again. I'm like, Yay, she's gone

937
00:55:38,765 --> 00:55:41,045
Speaker 3: back to the UK. She's made a guy called Jack.

938
00:55:42,725 --> 00:55:43,405
Speaker 4: What happened?

939
00:55:44,045 --> 00:55:47,085
Speaker 1: What happened? Kate? Well, this is an interesting junction for me.

940
00:55:48,525 --> 00:55:52,885
Speaker 2: Jack was a man that had a very unusual type

941
00:55:52,925 --> 00:56:01,325
Speaker 2: of cancer for a man. He was very funny, witty, creative.

942
00:56:02,205 --> 00:56:07,045
Speaker 2: He had just started his path on advocacy to promote, promote,

943
00:56:07,085 --> 00:56:10,125
Speaker 2: but to make his type of cancer where in the

944
00:56:10,245 --> 00:56:14,245
Speaker 2: UK and beyond. It was a friendship first, which I

945
00:56:14,245 --> 00:56:17,445
Speaker 2: think I've never done before, so that was weird, and

946
00:56:17,525 --> 00:56:19,845
Speaker 2: I felt very trusting with him, and we would talk

947
00:56:19,845 --> 00:56:23,205
Speaker 2: about dates that had gone wrong. And then I think

948
00:56:23,245 --> 00:56:25,965
Speaker 2: that I just saw him one day in a very

949
00:56:25,965 --> 00:56:28,325
Speaker 2: different light. I think when I met up with him

950
00:56:28,365 --> 00:56:30,685
Speaker 2: in Oxford and then I later went to stay with

951
00:56:30,765 --> 00:56:33,725
Speaker 2: him in the North of England, there was a chemistry

952
00:56:33,725 --> 00:56:38,125
Speaker 2: that I hadn't experienced before and I thought, this is

953
00:56:38,125 --> 00:56:40,845
Speaker 2: the type of man that I want to date, and

954
00:56:40,885 --> 00:56:46,885
Speaker 2: we did for a while. Actually, well, it's complicated because

955
00:56:47,125 --> 00:56:49,485
Speaker 2: we have spoken since the book's been released.

956
00:56:50,045 --> 00:56:52,005
Speaker 1: Actually, as you do.

957
00:56:52,125 --> 00:56:55,125
Speaker 2: Fact, the day of my book launch, there was a

958
00:56:55,125 --> 00:56:59,445
Speaker 2: message from Jack on my phone after quite a long

959
00:56:59,485 --> 00:57:03,565
Speaker 2: time of not being together, and it was supportive and

960
00:57:04,045 --> 00:57:07,885
Speaker 2: he read the book and he was completely taken aback

961
00:57:07,965 --> 00:57:12,645
Speaker 2: by how I described the relationship in the sense of wow,

962
00:57:12,845 --> 00:57:20,725
Speaker 2: it really was something special. However, however, external circumstances just

963
00:57:20,725 --> 00:57:22,765
Speaker 2: did not align to make it work.

964
00:57:23,725 --> 00:57:26,805
Speaker 1: And it's tragic, it really is.

965
00:57:27,725 --> 00:57:29,885
Speaker 2: I don't know whether I have a fear of the

966
00:57:29,925 --> 00:57:32,645
Speaker 2: future of being you know, alone and single and will

967
00:57:32,645 --> 00:57:34,885
Speaker 2: I meet the one? I don't think that, because you're right,

968
00:57:34,965 --> 00:57:38,205
Speaker 2: I do know how to hunt them down or be hunted.

969
00:57:38,885 --> 00:57:41,205
Speaker 1: But I have no idea.

970
00:57:41,325 --> 00:57:44,245
Speaker 2: And I tell you this sounds really kind of I've

971
00:57:44,285 --> 00:57:46,445
Speaker 2: never been a very in the present type of person.

972
00:57:46,725 --> 00:57:49,245
Speaker 2: I don't meditate. I mean, I love yoga, but I

973
00:57:49,685 --> 00:57:53,525
Speaker 2: can't meditate for love nor money. I've never needed just

974
00:57:53,525 --> 00:57:55,685
Speaker 2: to stay in the moment so much as I do

975
00:57:55,845 --> 00:57:58,445
Speaker 2: right now, because life has shown me that it doesn't

976
00:57:58,485 --> 00:58:00,925
Speaker 2: matter how much I try to plan for the future,

977
00:58:01,005 --> 00:58:04,445
Speaker 2: how much I plan for future feelings, it will not work.

978
00:58:04,965 --> 00:58:08,765
Speaker 2: And with my mum's health, with so many different sort

979
00:58:08,765 --> 00:58:11,925
Speaker 2: of cliffs, is with my future and creativity? What am

980
00:58:11,925 --> 00:58:14,605
Speaker 2: I going to do next? Is there another book in me?

981
00:58:16,085 --> 00:58:20,725
Speaker 2: I'm just going to trust that I don't need the answers.

982
00:58:21,085 --> 00:58:23,405
Speaker 2: I don't need the answers today. I just know that

983
00:58:23,445 --> 00:58:26,245
Speaker 2: I'm incredibly proud of what I've created. And just speaking

984
00:58:26,285 --> 00:58:29,925
Speaker 2: with you Kate today on this incredible podcast is the

985
00:58:30,005 --> 00:58:32,885
Speaker 2: testament that if I ever have a wobbly day of

986
00:58:33,005 --> 00:58:34,125
Speaker 2: am I good enough?

987
00:58:34,205 --> 00:58:35,205
Speaker 1: Am I doing it right?

988
00:58:35,685 --> 00:58:36,325
Speaker 4: Ah?

989
00:58:36,485 --> 00:58:39,645
Speaker 2: I need to rewind back to this moment because it's

990
00:58:39,645 --> 00:58:41,285
Speaker 2: a wonderful reflection of achievement.

991
00:58:41,805 --> 00:58:43,365
Speaker 1: Thank you, it really is.

992
00:58:43,845 --> 00:58:47,045
Speaker 3: I mean, we talk to a lot of extraordinary people,

993
00:58:47,925 --> 00:58:53,405
Speaker 3: often ordinary extraordinary or extraordinary extraordinary people on no filter,

994
00:58:54,325 --> 00:59:00,205
Speaker 3: and you certainly are extraordinary. I love your tenant, which

995
00:59:00,885 --> 00:59:03,205
Speaker 3: I don't even know if it's a formal one for you.

996
00:59:03,285 --> 00:59:06,965
Speaker 3: But the truth will set you free, and you coming

997
00:59:07,005 --> 00:59:11,005
Speaker 3: to the truth of yourself. Sharing the truth of yourself

998
00:59:11,005 --> 00:59:17,045
Speaker 3: with others, divesting yourself of shame and guilt and sharing

999
00:59:17,685 --> 00:59:21,645
Speaker 3: the journey of your life with others is so valuable.

1000
00:59:21,965 --> 00:59:25,085
Speaker 3: I respect it so much, and I thank you so

1001
00:59:25,245 --> 00:59:30,325
Speaker 3: much for your courage and your advocacy and your beauty.

1002
00:59:31,765 --> 00:59:32,765
Speaker 1: Well, thank you, Kate.

1003
00:59:33,085 --> 00:59:37,125
Speaker 2: And as I always say, the only thing normal in

1004
00:59:37,165 --> 00:59:41,645
Speaker 2: this world is difference. And I would really love to

1005
00:59:41,725 --> 00:59:45,805
Speaker 2: make truth like the next biggest trend, because that's the

1006
00:59:45,845 --> 00:59:48,085
Speaker 2: only way we're going to release the shame in our lives.

1007
00:59:48,325 --> 00:59:51,685
Speaker 2: So thank you so much for these wonderful words.

1008
00:59:55,925 --> 00:59:58,925
Speaker 3: Today, Alie Hensley led us into a story that most

1009
00:59:58,925 --> 01:00:02,565
Speaker 3: of us will never have heard before, a story of

1010
01:00:02,605 --> 01:00:07,165
Speaker 3: what it means to live with mrkh to carry a

1011
01:00:07,285 --> 01:00:11,365
Speaker 3: secret you feel you can't share, and to navigate intimacy,

1012
01:00:11,925 --> 01:00:15,925
Speaker 3: self worth and survival when your body doesn't match the

1013
01:00:16,045 --> 01:00:20,245
Speaker 3: script you thought it would. What strikes me most about

1014
01:00:20,285 --> 01:00:23,325
Speaker 3: Allie is not just the pain that she's endured, but

1015
01:00:23,445 --> 01:00:29,685
Speaker 3: the extraordinary courage it's taken to turn that pain into purpose.

1016
01:00:30,685 --> 01:00:35,165
Speaker 3: By shrugging off the shroud of shame and the secrecy

1017
01:00:35,205 --> 01:00:38,605
Speaker 3: that comes with it, and by speaking openly, she's helped

1018
01:00:38,645 --> 01:00:44,325
Speaker 3: create community where there once was nothing but silence, and

1019
01:00:44,365 --> 01:00:48,365
Speaker 3: in doing so, she's shown us all how honesty can

1020
01:00:48,405 --> 01:00:53,485
Speaker 3: be both terrifying and liberating. Her story is one of

1021
01:00:53,565 --> 01:00:58,085
Speaker 3: survival and resilience and hope, and it's one that will

1022
01:00:58,165 --> 01:01:01,605
Speaker 3: stay with me for a very long time. Thanks for

1023
01:01:01,685 --> 01:01:04,925
Speaker 3: listening to No Filter. The executive producer of No Filter

1024
01:01:05,005 --> 01:01:09,645
Speaker 3: is Nama Brown, The senior producer is Breed Player. Audiopenduction

1025
01:01:09,805 --> 01:01:13,725
Speaker 3: is by Jacob Brown, and video editing is by Josh Green.

1026
01:01:14,325 --> 01:01:18,805
Speaker 3: This episode was recorded at Session in Progress Studios and

1027
01:01:18,965 --> 01:01:22,805
Speaker 3: I am your host, Kate Langbrook. Thank you so much

1028
01:01:22,885 --> 01:01:23,445
Speaker 3: for listening.