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Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. Welcome to Mamma Mia

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Speaker 2: out loud what women are actually talking about on Wednesday,

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Speaker 2: the twenty third of July. And as you may be

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Speaker 2: able to tell from my voice, we were mid conversation

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Speaker 2: when I suddenly remembered we had to start the show.

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Speaker 2: Our conversation just rolls at all times, so we're bringing

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Speaker 2: you some of that energy.

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Speaker 1: I am Holly Wayne right, I'm mea Friedman. I'm still croaky.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I'm not feeling bad. I'm not contagious, but

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Speaker 1: it's annoying to listen to someone croaking your ears.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Jesse Stevens and you're always annoying in new

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Speaker 3: and surprising ways.

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Speaker 2: That's so true.

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Speaker 1: I'd like to keep it fresh.

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Speaker 2: That's what we love about you. And here's what's on

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Speaker 2: our agenda for today. Australia is learning all over again

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Speaker 2: how to deal with a political leader who is a woman.

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Speaker 2: And this week's conondrum is are we entitled to know

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Speaker 2: all the ins and outs of her past relationships?

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Speaker 1: Megan Markle is back in the news this week because

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Speaker 1: we finally know how many people watched her arrange cut

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Speaker 1: up fruit into a rainbow on her Netflix show All

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Speaker 1: of the People of Me.

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Speaker 3: And Jessica Bill's workout that went absolutely viral. I did it,

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Speaker 3: Holly felt personally victimized. We break it down, but first,

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Speaker 3: in case you missed it, this is breaking, breaking news.

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Speaker 3: Apparently farts aren't funny anymore. This TikTok by a woman

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Speaker 3: with the username Tilton has been viewed more than one

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Speaker 3: point five million times. And here's what she says. Why

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Speaker 3: are these kids not laughing at farts because I didn't

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Speaker 3: teach them to not laugh at far I'll laugh at

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Speaker 3: a good fart, but not a bad farat.

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Speaker 4: No, I'm just kidding.

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Speaker 5: I'll laugh at a bad fart too.

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Speaker 1: What's the difference between a good fight and a bad fart?

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Speaker 2: Timing?

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Speaker 4: Timing?

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Speaker 3: And also, people say there's a funny fight and then

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Speaker 3: there's like a fart that's like genuinely like makes people

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Speaker 3: really uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: Because it's not I think hearts are disgusting.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Well, her caption says that she saw this on

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Speaker 3: a teacher's TikTok. A teacher said, guys, I'm serious, these

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Speaker 3: Jennas so primary school age not finding farts funny.

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Speaker 4: This is a crisis. I don't know he's going on.

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Speaker 3: And then this mother went home and said to her

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Speaker 3: own kids, who are Jen Alpha, said guys, come on,

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Speaker 3: farts are funny. And they were like, no, they're not funny.

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Speaker 3: And she said, what do you mean they're not funny

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Speaker 3: and they said it would be like laughing at the hiccups.

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Speaker 4: Like it's not. Oh, it's just it's just a bodily function.

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Speaker 4: We move on. Why are we shaming people? It's not funny.

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Speaker 2: This news is depressing.

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Speaker 4: I've just decided it is depressing because I.

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Speaker 2: Don't find farts funny personally. Unfortunately, my children do because

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Speaker 2: their father.

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Speaker 4: Okay, because they're Jen Alpha, so this gives me.

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Speaker 2: Home they are. But then Brent, when I first met

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Speaker 2: him and we started dating, I had to just tell

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Speaker 2: him like, no, not funny, like burps, farts, all those things.

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Speaker 2: Like he has that humor where he just thinks that's

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Speaker 2: hilarious and I'm like, no, like not funny. But because

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Speaker 2: my children are part him and they think it's hilarious.

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Speaker 2: But what this tells me that they're very young primary

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Speaker 2: school kids aren't laughing. It was a clue there where

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Speaker 2: you said it's like shaming some one is they've been

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Speaker 2: made to feel so anxious about embarrassing their parents in public,

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Speaker 2: about shaming other people, that they can no longer see

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Speaker 2: the humor in the fact that sometimes you're not in

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Speaker 2: control of the noises that come out of you.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's the thing, right, is that There were hundreds

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Speaker 3: of comments agreeing kids don't find this funny anymore. And

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Speaker 3: I go back twenty years to being in a meditation

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Speaker 3: class at school and a girl farted and it was

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Speaker 3: the funniest.

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Speaker 4: She's probably not lived it down, but was she in

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Speaker 4: on the joke or not?

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Speaker 2: No, maybe it is okay.

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Speaker 1: That's interesting. It's like, do you find your own farts funny?

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Speaker 1: It's kind of like you find your own the smell

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Speaker 1: of your own farts is fine, but the smell of

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Speaker 1: other people's farts is disgusting. What I didn't realize is

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Speaker 1: that as you get older, sometimes you start farting by axe.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, don't mean that about me, But being around

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Speaker 2: older people.

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Speaker 1: When it happens, it's really awkward because you don't know,

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Speaker 1: like you try to cover it up trying to make

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Speaker 1: another noise that's like similar, well similar, you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean to me, like, oh, that was just though

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Speaker 1: I didn't fart, that was just well not moving my foot.

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Speaker 3: I can't believe you guys don't find it funny, because

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Speaker 3: I obviously have a two year old who this is

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Speaker 3: her first joke, and in fact, it is the first

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Speaker 3: recorded joke in history.

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Speaker 4: Was a fart shoke.

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Speaker 3: It has always been, And I was like, what is

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Speaker 3: the psychology behind why farts are funny? And it's because

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Speaker 3: if you're sitting there, especially in a formal setting. A

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Speaker 3: classroom is an ideal setting because you're sitting there, it's formal,

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Speaker 3: someone farts, there's tension because it's just like, oh my goodness,

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Speaker 3: you just did something that broke the social contract, which

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Speaker 3: was that we're all behaving in this way. And then

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Speaker 3: what laughter does is it relieves that tension, and so

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Speaker 3: everyone kind of laughs and it's just real equalize we're

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Speaker 3: all human. And it also crosses cultural linguistic bounds.

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Speaker 1: About funny farts because they often happen in yoga.

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Speaker 2: They do.

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Speaker 3: I actually think they're even funny.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, funny farts are quite funny.

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Speaker 2: You've got to own it though, like the little kids

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Speaker 2: who are like that would be shaming. That's sad, right.

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Speaker 2: I mean it's good that they consider it, but it's

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Speaker 2: a bit sad. But the thing is is that that's

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Speaker 2: why people own their own fart and laugh at it. Yes,

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Speaker 2: to take the shame back right.

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Speaker 3: Yes, there was someone who was saying in the comments

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Speaker 3: that twenty five years ago she was at school and

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Speaker 3: someone farted and then cried, and then they got the

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Speaker 3: nickname farted and cried.

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Speaker 4: I was like, oh, that's a little bit sad.

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Speaker 1: That's do you know who thinks fart so funny? Is

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Speaker 1: elon musk. If you've ever been in Tesla, there is

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Speaker 1: a mode on Tesla called fart Mode. You can set

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Speaker 1: it in different ways so that like, you can make

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Speaker 1: a fart when the driver indicates, you can even make

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Speaker 1: farts come from different parts of the car. When I

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Speaker 1: was in a car at Tesla and someone did this,

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Speaker 1: it actually was quite hilarious. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know why I know that because my dad

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Speaker 3: drove a Tesla for a little bit and he would

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Speaker 3: arrive at my house.

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Speaker 4: He'd say get out here and he'd do it.

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Speaker 1: And it's perfect for Pete Stevens.

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Speaker 4: It was easily. It is the universal language.

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Speaker 1: Just like that's true.

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Speaker 4: It doesn't matter if you two or your eighty.

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Speaker 1: Like woope, cushions.

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Speaker 4: It's just all a bit silly.

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Speaker 1: This week Netflix did something it's never done before, and

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Speaker 1: that is released viewing figures for thousands of its shows.

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Speaker 1: They don't release subscriber numbers anymore, but what they've started

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Speaker 1: to do, I think to cover up the fact that

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Speaker 1: they've probably reached critical mass and they can't grow the

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Speaker 1: number of subscribers.

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Speaker 2: What they are.

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Speaker 1: Doing is being transparent about how many hours people spent

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Speaker 1: watching every new show and movie between January and June

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Speaker 1: this year. So ninety five billion hours of viewing was

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Speaker 1: spent globally for just the first half of this year.

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Speaker 1: And the top performer was your favorite show, Hole Adolescence.

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Speaker 2: Which is very interesting because that is not a laugh

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Speaker 2: a minute. There are no jokes in that, no fart jokes.

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Speaker 2: It's very serious, very bleak. But it caught the public's

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Speaker 2: imagination in a way that I think surprised everybody. So

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Speaker 2: British more or less independent product.

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Speaker 3: I am stoked that that oh yeah, that spot because

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Speaker 3: creatively and experimentally it was so different, it was so slow.

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Speaker 3: It was something that if you were Netflix, you wouldn't

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Speaker 3: have necessarily thought taking a gamble on that would pay

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Speaker 3: off to this extent.

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Speaker 4: And I just think it's very exciting to see that.

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Speaker 1: At the top. The usual suspects came after that, like

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Speaker 1: Squid Game. But what people are talking about the big

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Speaker 1: takeaway from this news is that Megan Markle's lifestyle show

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Speaker 1: with Love Megan ranked number three hundred and eighty three.

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Speaker 1: It had five point three million views. Now I feel

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Speaker 1: like this is a little bit unfair. I don't know

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Speaker 1: when Adolescence came out, But again, you can't compare these

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Speaker 1: two things because one is a drama and one is

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Speaker 1: a very niche cook.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not about that. It's not about comparing Adolescence

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Speaker 2: and Megan. It's about like five point three million views

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Speaker 2: for a show of that scale is nothing A million

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Speaker 2: people watch Married at First Sight, Like, think about it

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Speaker 2: that way. This is a global audience zo point three

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Speaker 2: million views.

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Speaker 4: You know what else month you can compare it to.

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Speaker 3: And I think that this is the important kind of

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Speaker 3: data point is comparing it with other Netflix originals. So

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Speaker 3: the big Netflix originals have been ones like zero day

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Speaker 3: running point. Again, a bunch of those are dramas, but

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Speaker 3: they were in the top ten. And what some precedented,

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Speaker 3: according to Deadline, is to have a second season renewed,

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Speaker 3: and that's because they filmed the second season.

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Speaker 1: Before the first case. So I want to talk about

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Speaker 1: that for a second, because you're right, they still haven't

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Speaker 1: announced when that second season is going to be out,

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Speaker 1: but very soon after the first season finished airing, they

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Speaker 1: announced a second season. Now, as you said, it was

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Speaker 1: all filmed at the same time, which is a much

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Speaker 1: more cost effective way to do something, and then split

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Speaker 1: into two very smart strategically. With my sort of spin

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Speaker 1: hat on, if I was Megan probably and Netflix, I

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Speaker 1: would have done it this way because now people can't

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Speaker 1: say it was canned after one's So if they'd have

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Speaker 1: dropped all sixteen episodes at once and then not renewed it,

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Speaker 1: that would have been a big story. So if I

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Speaker 1: was Meghan, I don't know if her advisors it very

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Speaker 1: possibly was a strategic thing.

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Speaker 4: It's interesting that all the seasons of Suits were above it.

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Speaker 2: I know. Well, it's just one of the things that

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Speaker 2: makes Netflix rankings really interesting because when you're on a

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Speaker 2: platform like that, you are literally competing with pretty much

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Speaker 2: every TV show that's ever been made. The first season

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Speaker 2: of Bridgeton is on there, Breaking Bad is on there,

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Speaker 2: shows that haven't been made. Let's get through a show

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Speaker 2: without mentioning that.

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Speaker 1: Again, I'd like to talk about that.

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Speaker 2: But you know, like you are competing with pretty much

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Speaker 2: all the television in the whole world. Ever, so probably

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Speaker 2: a fairer thing to see where Megan's show would be

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Speaker 2: would be to compare it with lifestyle shows, right, and

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Speaker 2: the same way that you put daytime shows up against

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Speaker 2: each other, breakfast TV shows up against each other. All that,

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Speaker 2: but by any measure, if the five point three million

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Speaker 2: views is correct, that would have to be deemed not

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Speaker 2: successful and the other thing, and I'd love to know why,

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Speaker 2: because I know that nobody liked it. I was the

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Speaker 2: only one who was, like, I'm watching it. I watched

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Speaker 2: the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: Do you think how many of those five point three

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Speaker 1: million views will hate watchers? Do you think?

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Speaker 2: Well, there's that. But also the thing is is that

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Speaker 2: if we say that awareness is you know, we're in

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Speaker 2: an attention economy. You can't argue that that show didn't

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Speaker 2: get any attention? Can Yes, you cannot argue that no

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Speaker 2: one knows who Megan May is. You can't argue that

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Speaker 2: it didn't get any coverage, you can't argue that it

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Speaker 2: wasn't globally all over everywhere, and yet people still did

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Speaker 2: not watch. So what does that tell us?

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Speaker 1: So what's important about that whole? And this is what's

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Speaker 1: interesting about them not releasing subscriber numbers. Netflix's business model,

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Speaker 1: they don't really care how many hours you watch. That

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Speaker 1: shows them what people are interested in and more likely

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Speaker 1: to watch again. But what they want is new subscribers.

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Speaker 1: So what they would want to know, and I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I assume they can track this is how many people

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Speaker 1: joined Netflix for the first time or renewed their subscription

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Speaker 1: because they wanted to watch the show. How many new

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Speaker 1: subscribers did the show attract? And exactly as you say,

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Speaker 1: it's not necessarily about how many hours, but it's the noise,

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Speaker 1: and this show made so much bloody noise.

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Speaker 3: It was interesting that it was very, very badly reviewed,

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Speaker 3: and that even on your Rotten Tomatoes critics or just

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Speaker 3: your average viewer didn't appear to like it very much.

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Speaker 3: And another data point that I think is important is

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Speaker 3: that adolescents. In its first four days was viewed twenty

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Speaker 3: four point three million times, right, So that's what five

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Speaker 3: times actually what Megan's got overall. But it also had

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Speaker 3: a very long tail, getting to one hundred and forty

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Speaker 3: four million, eight hundred thousand views. So that means that

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Speaker 3: not only did people watch it, but they liked it

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Speaker 3: and they recommended it, which people will know about television.

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Speaker 4: People it were.

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Speaker 1: Again because Adelesta's had a big cultural footprint and people

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Speaker 1: heard about it and then watched it.

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Speaker 2: But you couldn't argue that the biggest shows in the

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Speaker 2: world are usually all that good. That's not usually the

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Speaker 2: way things will know.

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Speaker 3: But what I do think is interesting about Meghan is

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Speaker 3: in the first weekend it received two point six million views.

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Speaker 3: That's half of what then. And this is what they

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Speaker 3: say about any content creation really is it's all about

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Speaker 3: the tail. The tail tells you whether or not that

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Speaker 3: thing was good. My question is, or rather my theory

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Speaker 3: is that Megan's not disappointed. My theory is that this

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Speaker 3: was never about getting views. This was about brand creation

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Speaker 3: and selling products and tick she did that.

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad you say that, because that's been an

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Speaker 1: unimitigated disaster, so when I disagree. The show came out

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Speaker 1: she announced that Netflix was the backer for as ever

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Speaker 1: the Goddamn jam and the flower sprinkles and the crepe mix,

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Speaker 1: and people thought, well, that's really interesting. Because Netflix has

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Speaker 1: had a lot of success with doing merch around some

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Speaker 1: of its big shows. This is different. Selling consumables is

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Speaker 1: a very different thing to selling T shirts and baseball caps.

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Speaker 1: So everyone was interested to see how this was going

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Speaker 1: to go. Now, there is no question that it has

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Speaker 1: been the role out of this has been an unmitigated design.

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Speaker 2: Every single product sold out.

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Speaker 1: No no, but but that's not good. That sounds good

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Speaker 1: the first time, right, but it means that they've got

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Speaker 1: massive supply issues. The first time you can say, oh wow,

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Speaker 1: I mean you don't want things to sell out in

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Speaker 1: an hour. It's a certain strategy, But then you want

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Speaker 1: to make sure, so you drop a small amount. You say,

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Speaker 1: sold out in an hour, so you get scarcity, so

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Speaker 1: everyone comes, But then you make sure you've got the

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Speaker 1: pipeline ready to then satisfy the demand. So months later

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Speaker 1: they did another drop disaster, still sold out quickly. People

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Speaker 1: bought it, and then they got messages saying, sorry, we

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Speaker 1: sold it, but we don't actually have enough stock. Their

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Speaker 1: supply issues have been hopeless. So how many more times,

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Speaker 1: how much more frustration and brand damage is it going

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Speaker 1: to do when people can't get And now she said,

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Speaker 1: We're going back to the drawing board and I'm rethinking

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Speaker 1: all my products.

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Speaker 3: I'm looking at five point three and I'm going this

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Speaker 3: was a new thing for Netflix, this was a new model.

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Speaker 3: And if I go, that was five point three million

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Speaker 3: people watching an ad, which essentially they were, and they're

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Speaker 3: selling products, and we know, do I want to matter?

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Speaker 1: If you can't supply the products that people want to buy.

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Speaker 4: I reckon that they've made money.

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Speaker 2: The thing I'm interested in the margins body.

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Speaker 1: It's like an eight dollar bottle of whatever, jeah.

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Speaker 2: The thing I'm interested in is what it says about

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Speaker 2: the Megan and Harry brand going forward. Because also this

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Speaker 2: isn't all about Megan Harry. They've got a content deal

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Speaker 2: with Netflix, much lauded content deal that cost them jillion.

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Speaker 1: Dollars actually one hundred million dollars.

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Speaker 2: One hundred million dollars back in the day, and famously

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Speaker 2: they made their documentary about themselves that was a massive smash.

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Speaker 2: It remains the most watched nonfiction show that Netflix have

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Speaker 2: ever made. It was huge, just like Prince Harry's book

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Speaker 2: was huge, and then everything they've done since because as well.

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Speaker 2: Buried in these numbers are Prince Harry's show about the

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Speaker 2: Invictus Games and Prince Harry's show about Polo, which was

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Speaker 2: trying to be Drive to Survive. Drink That how that

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Speaker 2: do well?

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Speaker 1: Okay? That came in at number three, four hundred and

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Speaker 1: thirty six. It only had half a million views.

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Speaker 2: So again what that tells us is despite all the

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Speaker 2: attention in the world, every headline, all the social media pylons,

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Speaker 2: all of the stuff, people are only interested in them

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Speaker 2: for them and their story, which is what you've always

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Speaker 2: said me. So where does that leave them in terms

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Speaker 2: of what they're trying to establish, Because not everything that

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Speaker 2: any creative makes is always going to be a success,

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Speaker 2: and there are lots of different measures of successes. You say, Jesse,

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Speaker 2: and you could slice it different ways and put it

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Speaker 2: up against another cooking show and then see how it did,

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Speaker 2: and that's all fair. But they are establishing themselves as

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Speaker 2: a brand who make content that they know things about that,

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Speaker 2: and yet everything they've made that hasn't been about their

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Speaker 2: royal story has not been successful at all. Where do

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Speaker 2: they go now?

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Speaker 3: I think obviously not renewed with Netflix, And there are

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Speaker 3: lots of lakes and sources saying that, you know, Netflix

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Speaker 3: still will be over by the end of the year

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Speaker 3: and they're not going to renew it, and they all

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Speaker 3: know that. But the success that Meghan has had, and

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Speaker 3: this has even been as recently as this year, is

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Speaker 3: she is photographed wearing a gold bracelet and everyone works

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Speaker 3: out where the gold bracelet is from and you get

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Speaker 3: one thousand percent increases.

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Speaker 2: And she does have a shopper ball fash.

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Speaker 3: She has a shopper ball like I do think that

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Speaker 3: that's where her sweet spot is.

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Speaker 1: Yes, of course, yeah, fashion and beauty, And she talked

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Speaker 1: about that with Emma Greed he's one of the co

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Speaker 1: founders of Skims when she did that Entrepreneur interview when

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Speaker 1: all the entrepreneurs were interviewing each other on their entrepreneur shows. Okay, so,

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Speaker 1: as someone who has been running a content business for

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Speaker 1: eighteen years now, let me tell you it's not easy.

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Speaker 1: And I came into this business. My husband, who's my

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Speaker 1: co founder, has business acumen. I had fifteen twenty years

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Speaker 1: of content, you know, experience doing that when you've got

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Speaker 1: people like Meghan and Harry who, look, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: give them the benefit of doubt and say that they

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Speaker 1: don't want to have to be telling their story all

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Speaker 1: the time. And we've spoken about that, about the cost

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Speaker 1: of just selling your life and your personal life all

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Speaker 1: the time. They were like, no, But what everybody made

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Speaker 1: the mistake of Netflix, Harry and Meghan Spotify, who also

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Speaker 1: gave them one hundred million dollars or close to is

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Speaker 1: that they are not content creators unless that content is

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Speaker 1: about themselves. And even when it's about themselves, it's very regarded.

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Speaker 1: If it's not about their personal life, people aren't interested.

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Speaker 1: They're not interested in watching Harry at the Invictus Games

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Speaker 1: or Megan cooking in the kitchen with her celebrity friends.

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Speaker 1: They're not interested. They're not interested in her talking to

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Speaker 1: entrepreneurs about being an entrepreneur, or talking to women about

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Speaker 1: feminism and stereotypes archetypes. They're not interested. And I think

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Speaker 1: the Obamas had a similar experience when they left Offers,

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Speaker 1: and you know, they had a lot of success early on,

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Speaker 1: particularly with Michelle Obama's book. Interestingly, Obama did the first

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Speaker 1: half of his book, never followed up with part two.

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Speaker 2: But they have had successes, but how they scenes their

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00:18:02,982 --> 00:18:05,141
Speaker 2: production company has had a lot of big successes, but

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Speaker 2: they're not in them.

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Speaker 1: But it took a while, right because they also try

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Speaker 1: to few things it didn't really work. They then partnered

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Speaker 1: with people who really knew what they were doing. Now,

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Speaker 1: by all accounts, Harry and Meghan's greatest weakness, I suppose,

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Speaker 1: has been that they don't want to listen to people

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Speaker 1: that they're like, this is what I think we should do,

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Speaker 1: this is what I think we should do. So there's

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Speaker 1: been a lack of perhaps self awareness and recognition that

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Speaker 1: they're famous, but everything they touched doesn't turn to go.

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Speaker 3: I will say though, that most people get to fail

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Speaker 3: at their jobs privately, and everyone fails at parts of

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Speaker 3: their jobs or promotions or whatever every single day, and

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Speaker 3: we get to do that privately. And the glee with

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Speaker 3: which this reporting was published did make me sad to

398
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Speaker 3: kind of go, why are we all so excited that

399
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Speaker 3: there was a failure, Like she was just a woman

400
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Speaker 3: trying something.

401
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Speaker 2: I'm not excited. And I also think, as you said before,

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Speaker 2: if they can establish a rich niche and they're fine. Like,

403
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Speaker 2: I'm not worried about them. They've got their beautiful home

404
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Speaker 2: in Montecity. No, they've got bags of money coming at

405
00:19:01,381 --> 00:19:04,341
Speaker 2: them from all directions, Like they're gonna be fine. It's

406
00:19:04,422 --> 00:19:07,022
Speaker 2: just so interesting, you know, in that you can be

407
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Speaker 2: the most famous person in the world and you can

408
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Speaker 2: get all of the attention in the world, but it

409
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Speaker 2: won't necessarily translate in the way that you want it to.

410
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Speaker 2: Like you being able to harness that and point it

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Speaker 2: in the direction you want it won't work because people

412
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Speaker 2: are stubbornly interested in the things they're interested in, and

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Speaker 2: they won't just go where you point if it's not

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Speaker 2: what they.

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Speaker 1: Won't be Like the Kardashians and Chris Jenna is the

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Speaker 1: damn master of this. It would be as if they went, oh,

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Speaker 1: everyone's very interested in us, We're going to now go

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Speaker 1: behind the scenes and make you know documentaries or we're

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Speaker 1: going to make you know stories about fashion that we're

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Speaker 1: not in. Like, that's not what people want.

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Speaker 3: I want to do a quick call out to the

422
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Speaker 3: Australian shows that absolutely nailed it, and the big ones

423
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Speaker 3: were Apple Side Vininger, which came in at number fifty

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Speaker 3: and also the survivors to Australian shows that really succeeded

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Speaker 3: love to see.

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Speaker 2: It in a moment, the job interview test that you

427
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Speaker 2: had no idea.

428
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Speaker 1: You were taking.

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Speaker 2: If you go to a job interview and it's been

430
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Speaker 2: a while obviously, but I've been in plenty and someone

431
00:20:15,302 --> 00:20:18,061
Speaker 2: offers you a drink of water or a cup of coffee,

432
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Speaker 2: what do you do with your cup afterwards? Whatever it is,

433
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Speaker 2: it's a trap. A guy called Trent Innes, he's the

434
00:20:26,581 --> 00:20:29,821
Speaker 2: former MD of Zero Australia. Actually, an old podcast with

435
00:20:29,901 --> 00:20:31,941
Speaker 2: him has resurfaced and been given a new life on

436
00:20:32,022 --> 00:20:34,341
Speaker 2: TikTok where he said this. He said, when he was

437
00:20:34,381 --> 00:20:37,181
Speaker 2: interviewing candidates, if you come in and have an interview,

438
00:20:37,222 --> 00:20:38,981
Speaker 2: as soon as you come in and you meet me,

439
00:20:39,381 --> 00:20:41,502
Speaker 2: I will always take you for a walk down to

440
00:20:41,542 --> 00:20:44,022
Speaker 2: one of our kitchens and somehow you'll always end up

441
00:20:44,061 --> 00:20:47,022
Speaker 2: walking away with a drink. At the end of the interview,

442
00:20:47,061 --> 00:20:50,061
Speaker 2: he says, he observes what the candidate does with the

443
00:20:50,101 --> 00:20:53,982
Speaker 2: empty cup. Does this person, he says, want to take

444
00:20:54,061 --> 00:20:57,621
Speaker 2: the empty cup back to the kitchen. He says that

445
00:20:57,742 --> 00:21:00,101
Speaker 2: if they do, you can tell that they're a person

446
00:21:00,141 --> 00:21:03,862
Speaker 2: who's going to have attention to detail, consideration for others,

447
00:21:04,341 --> 00:21:06,222
Speaker 2: and see a project through.

448
00:21:06,621 --> 00:21:08,381
Speaker 1: And they're also going to stack the dishwasher in the

449
00:21:08,381 --> 00:21:11,302
Speaker 1: communal kitchen, which is an incredibly important quality in a

450
00:21:11,302 --> 00:21:12,022
Speaker 1: big office.

451
00:21:12,302 --> 00:21:15,302
Speaker 2: TikTok has seized on this old interview with oodles of

452
00:21:15,341 --> 00:21:17,982
Speaker 2: content about whether or not they failed this test themselves,

453
00:21:18,061 --> 00:21:20,821
Speaker 2: and whether or not this test is in fact fair

454
00:21:20,901 --> 00:21:23,101
Speaker 2: in any way. What do we think? I think I'd

455
00:21:23,101 --> 00:21:23,502
Speaker 2: fail it.

456
00:21:23,821 --> 00:21:25,901
Speaker 1: You definitely fail. I would definitely I'd fail to.

457
00:21:26,061 --> 00:21:29,542
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just don't think I'm aware enough of my surroundings.

458
00:21:29,621 --> 00:21:32,342
Speaker 3: And you know what, I think probably a potential employer

459
00:21:32,381 --> 00:21:34,861
Speaker 3: should know that. Like, I think it does reveal something

460
00:21:34,901 --> 00:21:36,542
Speaker 3: deeply flawed about my personality.

461
00:21:37,022 --> 00:21:40,262
Speaker 2: But this you might just be nervous too, Yeah.

462
00:21:39,982 --> 00:21:43,302
Speaker 3: Nervous, And also like I feel like maybe they just

463
00:21:43,502 --> 00:21:47,262
Speaker 3: want me to leave. I will just be annoying them

464
00:21:47,341 --> 00:21:49,621
Speaker 3: by going into the kitchen. I have a friend who

465
00:21:49,702 --> 00:21:53,421
Speaker 3: went for a really important job interview at a really

466
00:21:53,901 --> 00:21:58,661
Speaker 3: important company and was given a mug that was like

467
00:21:58,782 --> 00:22:01,022
Speaker 3: branded and he was, you know, just having a drink

468
00:22:01,061 --> 00:22:02,902
Speaker 3: of water out of it. At the end, they were

469
00:22:02,901 --> 00:22:04,942
Speaker 3: being ushered out and kind of ushered in back into

470
00:22:04,982 --> 00:22:06,782
Speaker 3: the car. Park and said thank you so much for

471
00:22:06,782 --> 00:22:09,182
Speaker 3: coming into this job interview, close the door, and this

472
00:22:09,621 --> 00:22:11,702
Speaker 3: I found himself in the car park holding the cup.

473
00:22:13,621 --> 00:22:14,862
Speaker 4: What do I do do?

474
00:22:14,942 --> 00:22:18,861
Speaker 3: I thought he was so strange walking out with the

475
00:22:18,901 --> 00:22:20,941
Speaker 3: cup of his hands, like he hadn't realized and he

476
00:22:21,022 --> 00:22:24,181
Speaker 3: was like do I leave it by the door or

477
00:22:24,341 --> 00:22:26,061
Speaker 3: take it home? And he didn't know what to do.

478
00:22:26,101 --> 00:22:27,821
Speaker 3: He felt so awkward. He was like, that's gonna look

479
00:22:27,861 --> 00:22:29,302
Speaker 3: weird if I put it by the thing. So he

480
00:22:29,341 --> 00:22:33,341
Speaker 3: walks towards his car, at which point the very important

481
00:22:33,341 --> 00:22:36,022
Speaker 3: boss opens the door and goes, mate, can I that cut?

482
00:22:36,581 --> 00:22:37,381
Speaker 6: No?

483
00:22:37,381 --> 00:22:37,661
Speaker 5: No?

484
00:22:38,022 --> 00:22:39,622
Speaker 2: And did he get the job?

485
00:22:39,702 --> 00:22:40,262
Speaker 4: He never got to go.

486
00:22:40,542 --> 00:22:41,502
Speaker 2: Of course he did it.

487
00:22:41,422 --> 00:22:43,982
Speaker 3: And that was the test that it feels like some

488
00:22:44,022 --> 00:22:45,542
Speaker 3: sort of test. This friend has never slept.

489
00:22:45,702 --> 00:22:48,022
Speaker 1: Wow, I don't think taking the cup home with you

490
00:22:48,262 --> 00:22:51,941
Speaker 1: was one of the options. It's funny thinking about this

491
00:22:51,982 --> 00:22:54,901
Speaker 1: because I haven't been in an interview where I was

492
00:22:54,901 --> 00:22:56,221
Speaker 1: being interviewed for a while.

493
00:22:56,702 --> 00:22:59,141
Speaker 2: But you interviewed people. Would you like this?

494
00:23:00,101 --> 00:23:01,861
Speaker 1: I said, a different kind of trap. Although it's not

495
00:23:01,901 --> 00:23:05,742
Speaker 1: a trap, it's more just a test, a test of sorts.

496
00:23:06,341 --> 00:23:09,462
Speaker 1: So my version of passing this test, though, is al offer.

497
00:23:10,462 --> 00:23:14,262
Speaker 1: Always say no. Anything more complicated than a water yes,

498
00:23:14,422 --> 00:23:14,701
Speaker 1: say no.

499
00:23:14,901 --> 00:23:15,782
Speaker 2: Agreed, because some.

500
00:23:15,702 --> 00:23:17,782
Speaker 1: People will go, oh, yeah, do you have green tea?

501
00:23:18,141 --> 00:23:20,302
Speaker 1: And I'll be like, dude, I offered because it was

502
00:23:20,341 --> 00:23:22,982
Speaker 1: a nice thing to do. Don't give me work.

503
00:23:23,661 --> 00:23:27,542
Speaker 2: Really, I totally agree with that. Again, it's like if

504
00:23:27,542 --> 00:23:29,901
Speaker 2: you're like, yeah, I'll have a latte with soil and

505
00:23:29,982 --> 00:23:32,581
Speaker 2: two and blah. Like sometimes you'll go into a meeting

506
00:23:32,661 --> 00:23:34,101
Speaker 2: or an interview, they'll be like, we've got a coffee

507
00:23:34,101 --> 00:23:36,101
Speaker 2: person outside. She'll take an order, and that's fine. But

508
00:23:36,101 --> 00:23:39,341
Speaker 2: if they're literally like, do you want anything? Water is

509
00:23:39,381 --> 00:23:42,182
Speaker 2: the absolute limit? I agree. The thing that's interesting that.

510
00:23:42,141 --> 00:23:45,502
Speaker 1: This guy come along with no needs. But back to

511
00:23:45,542 --> 00:23:49,542
Speaker 1: the test that I do do I just chat. I

512
00:23:49,742 --> 00:23:54,661
Speaker 1: just like chat with someone and just throw random questions.

513
00:23:54,702 --> 00:23:56,821
Speaker 1: So why I'd never allowed to interview anyone by myself

514
00:23:57,141 --> 00:24:00,662
Speaker 1: because I don't ask the proper. The thing I hate

515
00:24:00,661 --> 00:24:02,141
Speaker 1: most in the world is doing job into years. Why

516
00:24:02,141 --> 00:24:04,542
Speaker 1: I don't do them anymore and haven't for a long time.

517
00:24:04,581 --> 00:24:08,222
Speaker 1: But what I used to do is just see how

518
00:24:08,302 --> 00:24:10,742
Speaker 1: people react. It does no matter what you talk about.

519
00:24:10,782 --> 00:24:12,542
Speaker 1: And at first, when I was with someone else, they'd

520
00:24:12,581 --> 00:24:14,421
Speaker 1: be like, oh, We've got to get onto the interview

521
00:24:14,422 --> 00:24:15,941
Speaker 1: and why were you talking about that? And I'm like,

522
00:24:16,222 --> 00:24:19,061
Speaker 1: I just want to see what they're like. You know,

523
00:24:19,101 --> 00:24:20,341
Speaker 1: you can learn about someone.

524
00:24:20,222 --> 00:24:23,581
Speaker 2: I know, but but what they're like isn't always going

525
00:24:23,621 --> 00:24:24,941
Speaker 2: to tell you whether or not they're going to be

526
00:24:24,942 --> 00:24:25,542
Speaker 2: good at their job.

527
00:24:25,621 --> 00:24:26,022
Speaker 5: Not all.

528
00:24:26,022 --> 00:24:27,821
Speaker 1: It's just a data point. It's not enough. I don't

529
00:24:27,821 --> 00:24:29,862
Speaker 1: make a decision based on that, but it's just an

530
00:24:29,901 --> 00:24:30,982
Speaker 1: extra data point.

531
00:24:31,222 --> 00:24:32,981
Speaker 2: The thing is, the guy says is that all you

532
00:24:33,022 --> 00:24:34,661
Speaker 2: have to do to pass this test you don't actually

533
00:24:34,702 --> 00:24:36,142
Speaker 2: have to take your cup back to the kitchen, because

534
00:24:36,141 --> 00:24:37,982
Speaker 2: there are a lot of people on TikTok who, like you, Jesse,

535
00:24:38,061 --> 00:24:40,101
Speaker 2: are feeling awkward about that, Like what, I'm just wandering

536
00:24:40,141 --> 00:24:42,461
Speaker 2: through an office that I'm not welcome in putting. You

537
00:24:42,542 --> 00:24:44,741
Speaker 2: have to offer. That's all you have to do. Is

538
00:24:44,782 --> 00:24:46,941
Speaker 2: you have to say, oh, what daught me to do

539
00:24:47,022 --> 00:24:49,101
Speaker 2: with the cup? Shall I take it about in the kitchen.

540
00:24:49,222 --> 00:24:50,861
Speaker 2: That's all you have to do. You have to offer.

541
00:24:50,942 --> 00:24:53,542
Speaker 2: You have to think about the cup. That's the test, Okay.

542
00:24:54,022 --> 00:24:57,302
Speaker 1: My tips also are don't talk too much about your

543
00:24:57,302 --> 00:25:01,421
Speaker 1: personal life. Keep it top line so when someone asks

544
00:25:01,462 --> 00:25:04,341
Speaker 1: you a question, don't be too honest. I know there's

545
00:25:04,341 --> 00:25:06,581
Speaker 1: all bringing your whole self to work. Don't bring your

546
00:25:06,581 --> 00:25:07,742
Speaker 1: whole self to a job interview.

547
00:25:07,942 --> 00:25:10,741
Speaker 4: Don't talk about your IBA no exactly. Do you know

548
00:25:10,782 --> 00:25:13,142
Speaker 4: when farts aren't funny? Probably in that interview.

549
00:25:13,462 --> 00:25:16,782
Speaker 2: Not bitch about your boss, oh.

550
00:25:16,702 --> 00:25:18,621
Speaker 1: Yeah, your former employee.

551
00:25:18,262 --> 00:25:23,302
Speaker 2: All your current like and sometimes your interviewer will try

552
00:25:23,341 --> 00:25:25,622
Speaker 2: and lead you into that trap. Do not do it.

553
00:25:25,861 --> 00:25:29,941
Speaker 2: That's my number one tip. The new season of Australian

554
00:25:29,942 --> 00:25:31,901
Speaker 2: politics has started. I don't know if you've noticed. The

555
00:25:31,901 --> 00:25:33,982
Speaker 2: Parliament came back this week. They've had an even longer

556
00:25:33,982 --> 00:25:36,262
Speaker 2: break than I had on my holiday. They've been gone

557
00:25:36,302 --> 00:25:38,421
Speaker 2: a very long time, but it all came back this

558
00:25:38,502 --> 00:25:41,861
Speaker 2: week and with that attention, obviously there are some new

559
00:25:42,061 --> 00:25:45,221
Speaker 2: bit part players who've stepped into main character. One of

560
00:25:45,262 --> 00:25:48,701
Speaker 2: them is the new leader of the Opposition, Susan Lee.

561
00:25:48,982 --> 00:25:51,702
Speaker 2: So she was the subject of a shiny sixty minutes

562
00:25:51,782 --> 00:25:53,501
Speaker 2: profile on the weekend, because that's what you do when

563
00:25:53,542 --> 00:25:55,222
Speaker 2: you've got a new leader. We've all seen them before.

564
00:25:55,222 --> 00:25:57,462
Speaker 2: We've seen them with albos in Mascomo. We've talked about

565
00:25:57,462 --> 00:26:00,221
Speaker 2: them lots of times, like in themselves. Are they a

566
00:26:00,222 --> 00:26:02,462
Speaker 2: bit problematic? Like you always have to have all these

567
00:26:02,462 --> 00:26:04,142
Speaker 2: sides of yourself that you're showing.

568
00:26:04,302 --> 00:26:06,702
Speaker 1: The two things that you used to do is an

569
00:26:06,702 --> 00:26:10,262
Speaker 1: interview with the Women's Weekly YEP and an interview with

570
00:26:10,302 --> 00:26:10,941
Speaker 1: sixty Minutes.

571
00:26:10,982 --> 00:26:13,341
Speaker 2: Ye, and so they will have been like Susan Lee's

572
00:26:13,341 --> 00:26:15,142
Speaker 2: team and the sixty Minutes people will be like, well,

573
00:26:15,141 --> 00:26:16,542
Speaker 2: what can you show us? And they'll have been like,

574
00:26:16,901 --> 00:26:18,982
Speaker 2: Susan flies planes, which is very impressive.

575
00:26:19,222 --> 00:26:21,421
Speaker 1: That's quite interesting, greag astronaut lane.

576
00:26:21,621 --> 00:26:24,661
Speaker 2: So they go up in a plane. Susan likes to

577
00:26:24,661 --> 00:26:26,101
Speaker 2: go to the pub and talk to the locals. Okay,

578
00:26:26,101 --> 00:26:28,182
Speaker 2: so we'll go and order a beer like that's that right,

579
00:26:28,222 --> 00:26:30,581
Speaker 2: That's what it is. But one of the things that

580
00:26:30,621 --> 00:26:32,342
Speaker 2: we want to talk about that came up in this

581
00:26:32,621 --> 00:26:35,421
Speaker 2: is that when Susan Lee first stepped in as the

582
00:26:35,621 --> 00:26:38,502
Speaker 2: opposition leader, she gave a press club address in which

583
00:26:38,502 --> 00:26:40,901
Speaker 2: she alluded to the fact that she unders because obviously

584
00:26:40,982 --> 00:26:44,542
Speaker 2: the Liberal Party are making a play to show that

585
00:26:44,581 --> 00:26:47,741
Speaker 2: they understand Australian women because they've lost female voters in

586
00:26:47,942 --> 00:26:48,741
Speaker 2: enormous numbers.

587
00:26:48,821 --> 00:26:51,901
Speaker 1: Except they refuse to do quotas and they won't seem

588
00:26:51,942 --> 00:26:53,061
Speaker 1: to pre select any women.

589
00:26:53,101 --> 00:26:55,782
Speaker 2: But if you go he seemed to be the problem anyway.

590
00:26:55,861 --> 00:26:58,022
Speaker 2: In her press club address, she alluded to the fact

591
00:26:58,022 --> 00:27:00,661
Speaker 2: that she understood what Australian women going through, that she

592
00:27:00,702 --> 00:27:05,181
Speaker 2: had been herself in a relationship that maybe involved coers

593
00:27:05,222 --> 00:27:07,302
Speaker 2: of control, and that she understood the issues of coers

594
00:27:07,341 --> 00:27:10,661
Speaker 2: of control and domestic violence. So Tara Brown, the interviewer

595
00:27:10,782 --> 00:27:13,702
Speaker 2: from sixty Minutes, pushed Susan Lee a little bit on

596
00:27:13,742 --> 00:27:15,302
Speaker 2: this in the interview this is how it went.

597
00:27:15,542 --> 00:27:19,022
Speaker 5: You described domestic violence as a great shame, a great

598
00:27:19,022 --> 00:27:23,861
Speaker 5: in Australian shame. Is it something you have personally experienced.

599
00:27:24,341 --> 00:27:27,222
Speaker 6: Like many women in Australia, my life has been touched

600
00:27:27,502 --> 00:27:29,101
Speaker 6: by domestic violence.

601
00:27:29,462 --> 00:27:31,621
Speaker 5: At the time that you were experiencing it, that you

602
00:27:31,661 --> 00:27:34,061
Speaker 5: were touched by it, did you realize you weren't alone?

603
00:27:35,101 --> 00:27:38,101
Speaker 6: I think as a young woman, I didn't really understand

604
00:27:38,101 --> 00:27:41,821
Speaker 6: what was happening. And I've talked about being in challenging

605
00:27:41,861 --> 00:27:46,061
Speaker 6: workplaces and the approaches that have been made in those workplaces.

606
00:27:46,302 --> 00:27:49,502
Speaker 5: So just for clarity, the domestic violence that you experienced,

607
00:27:49,581 --> 00:27:52,222
Speaker 5: did that happen in your home or did that happen

608
00:27:52,621 --> 00:27:54,222
Speaker 5: at work or both?

609
00:27:54,982 --> 00:27:56,901
Speaker 6: I've talked about it in general terms, and I'm not

610
00:27:56,942 --> 00:27:58,462
Speaker 6: going to go into further specifics.

611
00:27:58,982 --> 00:28:03,341
Speaker 5: Why is that just not do you realize obviously people's

612
00:28:03,341 --> 00:28:04,382
Speaker 5: interest and concern.

613
00:28:05,302 --> 00:28:07,821
Speaker 6: I'm not remarkable when it comes to the statistics that

614
00:28:08,022 --> 00:28:11,741
Speaker 6: Australians are staring down the barrel of and this is

615
00:28:11,782 --> 00:28:14,302
Speaker 6: not about me, this is about the women of Australia.

616
00:28:14,381 --> 00:28:17,141
Speaker 1: I think she handled that incredibly well. I recoiled a

617
00:28:17,141 --> 00:28:19,581
Speaker 1: bit from the persistence of the questioning because as she

618
00:28:19,702 --> 00:28:23,742
Speaker 1: said it, I was thinking it might have been her parents,

619
00:28:23,901 --> 00:28:26,742
Speaker 1: it might have been a friend. She said, my life

620
00:28:26,782 --> 00:28:30,101
Speaker 1: has been touched by it. That's not necessarily her story

621
00:28:30,141 --> 00:28:30,942
Speaker 1: to tell.

622
00:28:30,901 --> 00:28:33,302
Speaker 2: Exactly, but I want to tell you the criticism she's

623
00:28:33,341 --> 00:28:35,782
Speaker 2: got so that we know what we're talking about here, right.

624
00:28:35,901 --> 00:28:39,421
Speaker 2: So she said what she said, and then some journalists,

625
00:28:39,462 --> 00:28:42,822
Speaker 2: not everybody, but said she should know that people are

626
00:28:42,822 --> 00:28:44,782
Speaker 2: going to push on that, which I'm sure she did,

627
00:28:44,782 --> 00:28:46,982
Speaker 2: and that's the decision she's made. So in The Nightly

628
00:28:47,022 --> 00:28:49,741
Speaker 2: a writer called Aaron Patrick wrote, for example, saying this

629
00:28:49,822 --> 00:28:51,941
Speaker 2: is not about me and about Australian woman is a

630
00:28:52,022 --> 00:28:55,502
Speaker 2: questionable assertion for anyone to make in a television profile.

631
00:28:55,582 --> 00:28:58,382
Speaker 2: Miss Lee is entitled to keep a sensitive aspect of

632
00:28:58,382 --> 00:29:01,782
Speaker 2: her personal life private, but having presented herself as a

633
00:29:01,862 --> 00:29:06,582
Speaker 2: victim of domestic violence to win over voters, especially women,

634
00:29:06,982 --> 00:29:11,262
Speaker 2: she should expect journalists to ask for the details. Is

635
00:29:11,302 --> 00:29:15,102
Speaker 2: that true? Should she expect journalists to ask for the details?

636
00:29:15,142 --> 00:29:16,941
Speaker 2: And is it fair game to push?

637
00:29:17,542 --> 00:29:22,382
Speaker 3: I thought that Tara Brown's line of questioning was fair

638
00:29:22,742 --> 00:29:27,742
Speaker 3: and was direct, but wasn't necessarily insensitive, And I thought

639
00:29:27,822 --> 00:29:31,342
Speaker 3: that Susan had every right to respond by saying that's

640
00:29:31,382 --> 00:29:35,181
Speaker 3: kind of a boundary. What I found incredibly inappropriate was

641
00:29:35,182 --> 00:29:39,702
Speaker 3: a commentary, the commentary in The Nightly that suggested that

642
00:29:39,862 --> 00:29:44,502
Speaker 3: she owed us the exposure of her wounds in order

643
00:29:44,542 --> 00:29:49,062
Speaker 3: to justify what claim she had over domestic violence. I

644
00:29:49,102 --> 00:29:51,942
Speaker 3: think to say this has touched me in some way

645
00:29:52,702 --> 00:29:55,942
Speaker 3: is fair. And I think that Brown's questioning about did

646
00:29:55,942 --> 00:29:59,382
Speaker 3: it happen at work like Britney Higgins context, you know

647
00:29:59,462 --> 00:30:01,941
Speaker 3: what's happened with the Liberal Party? It would be remiss

648
00:30:01,942 --> 00:30:04,022
Speaker 3: of her not to have asked question.

649
00:30:04,102 --> 00:30:07,782
Speaker 1: Slightly confused about that because domestic violence suggests that it's

650
00:30:07,822 --> 00:30:09,902
Speaker 1: not a workplace issue. That's a diff it's called a

651
00:30:09,902 --> 00:30:10,422
Speaker 1: different thing.

652
00:30:10,582 --> 00:30:12,461
Speaker 2: I think they're talking about two different things now. A

653
00:30:12,462 --> 00:30:15,181
Speaker 2: fresh club address, she kind of when she said about

654
00:30:15,182 --> 00:30:18,221
Speaker 2: the workplace. I think what she meant was issues that

655
00:30:18,262 --> 00:30:22,702
Speaker 2: affect women, from sexual harassment to coercive control.

656
00:30:22,542 --> 00:30:24,502
Speaker 1: To being scared walking down the street at now.

657
00:30:24,502 --> 00:30:28,222
Speaker 2: I see you, I recognize that I've experienced that that I.

658
00:30:28,182 --> 00:30:30,902
Speaker 1: Feel a tiny bit clumsy. To me, it felt a

659
00:30:30,982 --> 00:30:34,142
Speaker 1: tiny bit and again, you know, it's so easy to

660
00:30:34,182 --> 00:30:36,862
Speaker 1: sit back. I think it's great that there's a female

661
00:30:36,862 --> 00:30:41,102
Speaker 1: opposition leader, if that's not just window dressing for an

662
00:30:41,222 --> 00:30:44,981
Speaker 1: endemic problem within that party, which there is one. The

663
00:30:45,062 --> 00:30:47,941
Speaker 1: newspaper came out this week showing that support for the

664
00:30:47,982 --> 00:30:52,022
Speaker 1: Coalition is the lowest it's been since nineteen eighty five.

665
00:30:52,661 --> 00:30:55,982
Speaker 1: My frustration is more if the party thinks that that's

666
00:30:56,022 --> 00:30:58,222
Speaker 1: going to be enough to show cultural change.

667
00:30:58,342 --> 00:31:02,382
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting because traditional political journalism is that

668
00:31:02,422 --> 00:31:05,902
Speaker 2: you do push very hard, right, we push male leaders

669
00:31:05,902 --> 00:31:09,382
Speaker 2: to very hard. It's that, you know, there's a cliche

670
00:31:09,582 --> 00:31:12,102
Speaker 2: at any time a journalist interviews a politician, they should

671
00:31:12,102 --> 00:31:14,542
Speaker 2: be thinking, why is this lying fucker lying to be

672
00:31:14,661 --> 00:31:15,102
Speaker 2: like that's the.

673
00:31:15,022 --> 00:31:18,502
Speaker 1: Bastion, not about their personal life. You wouldn't have Lee Sales.

674
00:31:19,822 --> 00:31:22,182
Speaker 2: You wouldn't No, you wouldn't have Lee Sales doing that.

675
00:31:22,302 --> 00:31:25,222
Speaker 2: But there's no question that we are very interested in

676
00:31:26,182 --> 00:31:29,181
Speaker 2: their experience. Think about Bob Hawk and his daughter experiencing

677
00:31:29,342 --> 00:31:33,902
Speaker 2: drug addiction extramarital affairs, Like, I'm not saying that we

678
00:31:34,022 --> 00:31:36,102
Speaker 2: push them that hard word toward, but I think that

679
00:31:36,182 --> 00:31:39,502
Speaker 2: we do expect a level of transparency from politicians that

680
00:31:39,502 --> 00:31:43,182
Speaker 2: we wouldn't necessarily expect from other people. Right, because it's

681
00:31:43,302 --> 00:31:45,941
Speaker 2: your public person who's asking us to vote for you,

682
00:31:45,982 --> 00:31:48,582
Speaker 2: so show us your stuff, right, That's why they do

683
00:31:48,622 --> 00:31:52,342
Speaker 2: these profiles. The problem is, I don't think the traditional

684
00:31:52,342 --> 00:31:54,622
Speaker 2: media understands how to deal with that when it comes

685
00:31:54,661 --> 00:31:57,902
Speaker 2: to women, like because some of these female issues in

686
00:31:57,902 --> 00:32:01,622
Speaker 2: inverted commas overlap with policy issues, like what do you

687
00:32:01,661 --> 00:32:03,502
Speaker 2: think about women's health? What do you think about domestic

688
00:32:03,582 --> 00:32:05,742
Speaker 2: violence funding? What do you think about making women safer

689
00:32:05,782 --> 00:32:08,942
Speaker 2: on the streets? They're kind of flapping about, going, well,

690
00:32:08,982 --> 00:32:11,862
Speaker 2: is it okay to ask? Have you ever been hit?

691
00:32:11,942 --> 00:32:14,221
Speaker 2: Have you ever had an abortion? Like, no, it's not

692
00:32:14,342 --> 00:32:16,582
Speaker 2: okay to ask. Of course, it's not okay to ask.

693
00:32:16,622 --> 00:32:19,942
Speaker 2: But I think that there's like this mucky confusion there,

694
00:32:20,222 --> 00:32:20,942
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean?

695
00:32:21,062 --> 00:32:25,582
Speaker 3: And sometimes you don't have to explicitly ask. So Caroline o'donna,

696
00:32:25,582 --> 00:32:28,622
Speaker 3: who wrote a newsletter this week in Sentimental Garbage, which

697
00:32:28,661 --> 00:32:33,862
Speaker 3: is her substack about the expectation of female authors to

698
00:32:34,062 --> 00:32:37,462
Speaker 3: write personal essays. This sounds unrelated, but I actually think

699
00:32:37,502 --> 00:32:39,862
Speaker 3: it is exactly what we're talking about, which is that

700
00:32:39,902 --> 00:32:43,261
Speaker 3: when you are a female public figure, be that an author,

701
00:32:43,382 --> 00:32:48,662
Speaker 3: an actor, a politician, you are expected to share the

702
00:32:48,702 --> 00:32:51,221
Speaker 3: worst things that ever happen to you in order to

703
00:32:52,222 --> 00:32:56,862
Speaker 3: validate your existence in this sphere, to validate why you

704
00:32:56,942 --> 00:33:00,342
Speaker 3: might position yourself as an activist, to endear yourself to

705
00:33:00,382 --> 00:33:05,062
Speaker 3: people for connection. And she says that male authors, and

706
00:33:05,102 --> 00:33:07,261
Speaker 3: I would say male politicians too, they get to talk

707
00:33:07,302 --> 00:33:10,382
Speaker 3: about ideas, They get to talk about the the stuff,

708
00:33:10,462 --> 00:33:13,582
Speaker 3: the concepts, whereas women and I think that that is

709
00:33:13,622 --> 00:33:17,862
Speaker 3: where she has found herself. Lee has found herself is like,

710
00:33:18,702 --> 00:33:23,502
Speaker 3: what's your story that you owe us? And the irony

711
00:33:23,542 --> 00:33:25,902
Speaker 3: in it is that then we will use it against you,

712
00:33:25,982 --> 00:33:28,221
Speaker 3: And she knows that that. What will happen is then

713
00:33:28,222 --> 00:33:29,902
Speaker 3: when you google her, the first thing will be, oh,

714
00:33:29,902 --> 00:33:32,582
Speaker 3: she's a survivor of domestic violence. She'll be asked about

715
00:33:32,582 --> 00:33:36,742
Speaker 3: it in every single interview. Then the opposition will suggest

716
00:33:36,942 --> 00:33:39,382
Speaker 3: that she wasn't or that it wasn't bad enough for well,

717
00:33:39,702 --> 00:33:41,701
Speaker 3: your policy isn't good enough, like women then have it

718
00:33:41,742 --> 00:33:45,582
Speaker 3: weaponized against them, but they're forced to disclose, which is

719
00:33:45,702 --> 00:33:47,461
Speaker 3: really dangerous. You know.

720
00:33:47,622 --> 00:33:50,982
Speaker 1: Also, then someone goes and looks up the person maybe

721
00:33:51,022 --> 00:33:53,982
Speaker 1: and tries to do yea, and who was it and

722
00:33:54,022 --> 00:33:56,342
Speaker 1: where are they now and what happened and what's the narrative?

723
00:33:56,342 --> 00:33:59,902
Speaker 1: Because that's more interesting than policy, to be honest, and it.

724
00:33:59,862 --> 00:34:02,502
Speaker 2: Opens it up for debate. Then it's kind of like, well,

725
00:34:02,622 --> 00:34:04,542
Speaker 2: was it really this? And was it really that? We

726
00:34:04,582 --> 00:34:07,102
Speaker 2: all see women's stories being questioned all the time.

727
00:34:07,182 --> 00:34:09,182
Speaker 1: I think the part that friend of the Pod Charlotte

728
00:34:09,182 --> 00:34:11,222
Speaker 1: Mortlock pulled out was really interesting.

729
00:34:11,422 --> 00:34:13,302
Speaker 3: This is in the Nightly column, it said, which was

730
00:34:13,342 --> 00:34:16,822
Speaker 3: about the interview. Yes, it said, who if anyone provides

731
00:34:16,862 --> 00:34:20,582
Speaker 3: the personal advice and emotional support only an intimate partner

732
00:34:20,701 --> 00:34:24,661
Speaker 3: can to this public figure is a mystery. For context,

733
00:34:25,062 --> 00:34:27,341
Speaker 3: she's been married, divorced. The suggestion is.

734
00:34:27,342 --> 00:34:31,142
Speaker 4: That she's currently unpartnered, right, and what.

735
00:34:31,261 --> 00:34:36,661
Speaker 3: This statement suggests is that there is something wrong or

736
00:34:36,701 --> 00:34:40,302
Speaker 3: devoid or like, can you trust a leader who doesn't

737
00:34:40,342 --> 00:34:43,742
Speaker 3: have an intimate partner to throw around ideas with? Which

738
00:34:43,781 --> 00:34:46,981
Speaker 3: is ironic and this is the point that Charlotte made

739
00:34:47,502 --> 00:34:51,502
Speaker 3: with Scott Morrison when he conferred with his wife. It

740
00:34:51,582 --> 00:34:53,982
Speaker 3: was almost like used to undermine him, as though he

741
00:34:54,022 --> 00:34:55,822
Speaker 3: doesn't have enough of a mind of his own.

742
00:34:55,862 --> 00:34:58,022
Speaker 1: Well, because men don't need any support.

743
00:34:58,102 --> 00:35:01,181
Speaker 2: Now I pushed back on that. I think we were

744
00:35:01,302 --> 00:35:06,462
Speaker 2: very suspicious of single male politicians like Albo. Being engaged

745
00:35:06,741 --> 00:35:09,102
Speaker 2: has excused him from that, but he was the first

746
00:35:09,142 --> 00:35:12,261
Speaker 2: on Marria Prime minister by one. We have always been

747
00:35:12,302 --> 00:35:17,421
Speaker 2: interested in politicians' private lives, and politicians have always known

748
00:35:17,502 --> 00:35:19,741
Speaker 2: that and pulled out bits of their private lives to

749
00:35:19,822 --> 00:35:22,382
Speaker 2: help explain who they are to the public. Because remember,

750
00:35:22,422 --> 00:35:24,821
Speaker 2: these are not your normal public figures. They're asking us

751
00:35:24,862 --> 00:35:27,062
Speaker 2: to vote for them. So think about how many times

752
00:35:27,062 --> 00:35:30,262
Speaker 2: Albo talks about his origin story, his single mum, growing

753
00:35:30,302 --> 00:35:32,781
Speaker 2: up hard scrabble in public housing all the time. That's

754
00:35:32,822 --> 00:35:35,502
Speaker 2: his narrative, right, you know. Think about politicians who've talked

755
00:35:35,502 --> 00:35:38,382
Speaker 2: about their family breakdowns and being raised in as the

756
00:35:38,462 --> 00:35:42,022
Speaker 2: child of divorce or whatever it is. You need a narrative, right,

757
00:35:42,382 --> 00:35:45,421
Speaker 2: And I think we've always been interested an interesting thought

758
00:35:45,422 --> 00:35:47,942
Speaker 2: experiment about why it irks me that they're pushing on

759
00:35:48,022 --> 00:35:51,102
Speaker 2: Susan Lee's personal life is Was I bothered when they

760
00:35:51,102 --> 00:35:53,342
Speaker 2: were pushing on Peter Dunnan's You know how Peter Dutton

761
00:35:53,382 --> 00:35:56,182
Speaker 2: had a slightly complicated had a child when he was younger,

762
00:35:56,221 --> 00:35:58,102
Speaker 2: and then a marriage that didn't work out and whatever?

763
00:35:58,622 --> 00:36:01,102
Speaker 2: Was I upset when journalists were pushing him on that.

764
00:36:01,422 --> 00:36:02,781
Speaker 2: I don't think I was upset about it.

765
00:36:02,822 --> 00:36:06,261
Speaker 3: I think that as human beings we can accept that

766
00:36:06,302 --> 00:36:08,942
Speaker 3: there are some subjects that are more sensitive than us.

767
00:36:09,661 --> 00:36:12,462
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, no, no, oh no, sorry. When I say that,

768
00:36:12,502 --> 00:36:14,622
Speaker 2: I'm comparing it to the commentary about whether or not

769
00:36:14,661 --> 00:36:18,262
Speaker 2: she's single, not about the not about the commentary ABOUTDV.

770
00:36:18,342 --> 00:36:20,741
Speaker 2: My god, No, I think that's so different. I think

771
00:36:20,781 --> 00:36:23,821
Speaker 2: Susan Lee has every right to do exactly what she did.

772
00:36:24,261 --> 00:36:26,261
Speaker 2: I think that's actually really smart. As you do me,

773
00:36:26,342 --> 00:36:28,261
Speaker 2: I say yes, but I'm not going to talk about it,

774
00:36:28,261 --> 00:36:31,102
Speaker 2: and you just close the door. The criticism about her

775
00:36:31,142 --> 00:36:33,262
Speaker 2: refusing to talk about a personal life, and the writer

776
00:36:33,382 --> 00:36:36,502
Speaker 2: who wrote about that said her office refuses to discuss

777
00:36:36,542 --> 00:36:40,582
Speaker 2: it like very blatantly, is again. I think she has

778
00:36:40,622 --> 00:36:43,542
Speaker 2: every right to keep that door shut. But I don't

779
00:36:43,582 --> 00:36:46,142
Speaker 2: think it's true that we don't press men on their

780
00:36:46,181 --> 00:36:47,781
Speaker 2: personal lives. We absolutely do.

781
00:36:48,022 --> 00:36:50,781
Speaker 3: My theory is that we punish women for not disclosing

782
00:36:50,822 --> 00:36:51,861
Speaker 3: more than we punish men.

783
00:36:52,181 --> 00:36:53,342
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure that's true.

784
00:36:54,342 --> 00:36:57,902
Speaker 3: After the break, why Jessica Bill's back has sparked an

785
00:36:57,982 --> 00:37:03,181
Speaker 3: online frenzy What unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes

786
00:37:03,261 --> 00:37:07,261
Speaker 3: every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum and MEA subscribers.

787
00:37:07,741 --> 00:37:09,821
Speaker 3: Follow the link in the show notes to get us

788
00:37:09,822 --> 00:37:12,542
Speaker 3: in your ears five days a week, and a huge

789
00:37:12,582 --> 00:37:21,502
Speaker 3: thank you to all our current subscribers.

790
00:37:19,622 --> 00:37:22,742
Speaker 1: In case you missed it. South Koreans are checking themselves

791
00:37:22,822 --> 00:37:26,422
Speaker 1: into relaxation prison to escape stress and also life.

792
00:37:26,781 --> 00:37:29,661
Speaker 3: This feels like that thing that women have spoken about doing,

793
00:37:29,701 --> 00:37:33,622
Speaker 3: where they fantasize about something mildly inconvenient happening that lands

794
00:37:33,661 --> 00:37:35,542
Speaker 3: them in hospital for a week or two with no

795
00:37:35,701 --> 00:37:37,582
Speaker 3: visiting hours, and you can just lay in a bed

796
00:37:37,622 --> 00:37:38,902
Speaker 3: and just relax.

797
00:37:39,022 --> 00:37:43,261
Speaker 1: The relaxation prison is a hotel. It's called Prison inside Me,

798
00:37:43,862 --> 00:37:49,062
Speaker 1: and it's located outside Seoul, and people voluntarily pay to

799
00:37:49,142 --> 00:37:52,662
Speaker 1: lock themselves up. Now, the most popular types of guests

800
00:37:52,701 --> 00:37:57,942
Speaker 1: like office workers, interestingly, university students, entrepreneurs, hard relate, people

801
00:37:57,982 --> 00:38:02,661
Speaker 1: experiencing burnout or anxiety, and mothers of small children. Yeah,

802
00:38:02,701 --> 00:38:03,301
Speaker 1: I made that up.

803
00:38:03,342 --> 00:38:04,422
Speaker 2: I like their uniforms.

804
00:38:04,462 --> 00:38:06,422
Speaker 3: Did you say you get like a onesie?

805
00:38:06,542 --> 00:38:08,302
Speaker 1: Yes, because you don't want to have to make decisions

806
00:38:08,302 --> 00:38:08,861
Speaker 1: about what you're wearing.

807
00:38:08,902 --> 00:38:10,982
Speaker 2: It wouldn't be mother of small children mare, because they

808
00:38:10,982 --> 00:38:11,782
Speaker 2: wouldn't be allowed.

809
00:38:12,342 --> 00:38:15,301
Speaker 1: True, they just think on the website inquiring, but they

810
00:38:15,342 --> 00:38:16,062
Speaker 1: never actually.

811
00:38:15,822 --> 00:38:16,461
Speaker 4: Make a book keep.

812
00:38:17,261 --> 00:38:20,181
Speaker 1: It was actually founded almost ten years ago by a

813
00:38:20,221 --> 00:38:23,302
Speaker 1: former prosecutor who he nearly worked himself into the ground,

814
00:38:23,302 --> 00:38:25,981
Speaker 1: and he decided that jail sounded more RESTful than his job.

815
00:38:26,822 --> 00:38:29,381
Speaker 1: For about one hundred and thirty five dollars, you get

816
00:38:29,382 --> 00:38:32,982
Speaker 1: a twenty four hour stay in a little room with

817
00:38:33,062 --> 00:38:36,262
Speaker 1: a window, guests that are encouraged to open their window

818
00:38:36,302 --> 00:38:39,862
Speaker 1: and look out into the countryside and gaze at nature.

819
00:38:39,942 --> 00:38:42,302
Speaker 1: But there's no phone, there's no mirror, there's no clocks.

820
00:38:42,942 --> 00:38:44,822
Speaker 1: There is room service in a way, but your meals

821
00:38:44,822 --> 00:38:47,142
Speaker 1: are slipped through a slot in the door, so you

822
00:38:47,582 --> 00:38:49,502
Speaker 1: presumably don't have to choose what you eat, and you

823
00:38:49,542 --> 00:38:53,102
Speaker 1: don't interact with anyone, and you're encouraged to meditate, journal

824
00:38:53,701 --> 00:38:55,821
Speaker 1: and I don't know, not totally lose your mind. More

825
00:38:55,822 --> 00:38:59,661
Speaker 1: than two thousand people have done it mostly locals, and

826
00:39:00,181 --> 00:39:02,862
Speaker 1: a lot of them come back. It's like this ultimate detail,

827
00:39:02,942 --> 00:39:06,502
Speaker 1: how long for me? They originally would offer these packages

828
00:39:06,542 --> 00:39:08,741
Speaker 1: for like a week, but that was too long. So

829
00:39:08,822 --> 00:39:10,582
Speaker 1: now it's like you can either get a twenty four

830
00:39:10,582 --> 00:39:14,062
Speaker 1: hour stay for one hundred and thirty five dollars or

831
00:39:14,181 --> 00:39:17,381
Speaker 1: a forty eight hours stay for a bit more so

832
00:39:17,422 --> 00:39:19,381
Speaker 1: that they're the most popular amounts of time. And as

833
00:39:19,382 --> 00:39:20,982
Speaker 1: soon as they've changed that, which they've done in the

834
00:39:21,062 --> 00:39:24,702
Speaker 1: last few years, lots more people came because that idea

835
00:39:24,741 --> 00:39:29,142
Speaker 1: of detoxing from your phone, from technology, from stress, being

836
00:39:29,181 --> 00:39:32,341
Speaker 1: where nobody can reach you is very intoxicated.

837
00:39:32,502 --> 00:39:35,301
Speaker 2: Also think that we can't do it to ourselves, so

838
00:39:35,422 --> 00:39:37,421
Speaker 2: we need it to be forced upon us.

839
00:39:37,582 --> 00:39:40,462
Speaker 3: See, I like, I think I prefer a really expensive

840
00:39:40,582 --> 00:39:43,781
Speaker 3: bougie health retreat. That's what I look at when I'm

841
00:39:43,781 --> 00:39:46,261
Speaker 3: in the throes of feeling like particularly burnt out. I

842
00:39:46,302 --> 00:39:48,862
Speaker 3: look at the really fancy ones I could never afford

843
00:39:48,902 --> 00:39:52,422
Speaker 3: to just like go and stay for a week and meditate.

844
00:39:52,741 --> 00:39:54,982
Speaker 1: Do you know what, though, in all seriousness, the times

845
00:39:55,022 --> 00:39:58,542
Speaker 1: that I've felt most in need of that like nervous

846
00:39:58,582 --> 00:40:02,181
Speaker 1: breakdown edge, it's just felt like so many steps that

847
00:40:02,221 --> 00:40:06,822
Speaker 1: I just have not been able to imagine finding a place,

848
00:40:06,982 --> 00:40:09,221
Speaker 1: looking for a room, booking a room, apart from the

849
00:40:09,261 --> 00:40:12,542
Speaker 1: costs of it getting myself there. It's like, and that's

850
00:40:12,542 --> 00:40:14,181
Speaker 1: why it can feel like such a trap, because what

851
00:40:14,261 --> 00:40:16,302
Speaker 1: a lot of us need to rest from is our phone.

852
00:40:16,542 --> 00:40:18,261
Speaker 1: So of course what I did. You talked about the

853
00:40:18,302 --> 00:40:21,261
Speaker 1: brick device. I bought a brick for me. I bought

854
00:40:21,261 --> 00:40:21,981
Speaker 1: a brick free, Jesse.

855
00:40:22,462 --> 00:40:23,062
Speaker 2: How's it going?

856
00:40:23,102 --> 00:40:24,102
Speaker 4: I haven't, I haven't eaten.

857
00:40:25,142 --> 00:40:28,981
Speaker 1: It costs like one hundred dollars. Basically turns your phone

858
00:40:29,022 --> 00:40:30,701
Speaker 1: into a brick, you know, when you swipe it and

859
00:40:30,741 --> 00:40:32,422
Speaker 1: then you have to swipe it again to unbrick it.

860
00:40:32,661 --> 00:40:35,861
Speaker 3: This is way better actually than my health retreat. Is

861
00:40:35,862 --> 00:40:38,821
Speaker 3: that if I went on my expensive health retreat, I

862
00:40:38,822 --> 00:40:42,021
Speaker 3: think I would feel pressure to enjoy it, whereas being

863
00:40:42,102 --> 00:40:44,622
Speaker 3: locked up in a relaxation for yeah, I don't feel

864
00:40:44,701 --> 00:40:47,261
Speaker 3: like I'd have this pressure to enjoy it and soak

865
00:40:47,302 --> 00:40:47,701
Speaker 3: it all in.

866
00:40:47,982 --> 00:40:48,862
Speaker 2: Like it's also cheaper.

867
00:40:48,982 --> 00:40:49,782
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.

868
00:40:50,462 --> 00:40:53,421
Speaker 7: Everyone is talking or telling me that people are really

869
00:40:53,542 --> 00:40:56,582
Speaker 7: enjoying that a sister, which is amazing, and also talking

870
00:40:56,582 --> 00:40:59,102
Speaker 7: about the weight Joss, and how do we stay strong

871
00:40:59,261 --> 00:41:01,741
Speaker 7: as we get older, specifically as women, how do we

872
00:41:01,862 --> 00:41:04,221
Speaker 7: keep our backstrong? I just felt like I wanted to

873
00:41:04,302 --> 00:41:07,381
Speaker 7: share that that cute sheep in that shell is not

874
00:41:07,542 --> 00:41:11,821
Speaker 7: maintainable unless you are the strictest, most rigid lifestyle with

875
00:41:11,822 --> 00:41:15,062
Speaker 7: your nutrition and with your goodness, which I cannot do.

876
00:41:15,622 --> 00:41:18,781
Speaker 2: So I'm currently back on my plan to.

877
00:41:18,781 --> 00:41:22,382
Speaker 7: Sort of get a little bit back towards that sheep.

878
00:41:22,582 --> 00:41:24,341
Speaker 7: My body is not twenty years old anymore, you know,

879
00:41:25,181 --> 00:41:27,022
Speaker 7: so I am adjusting my.

880
00:41:27,022 --> 00:41:28,702
Speaker 1: Workout what I need to do.

881
00:41:28,701 --> 00:41:31,221
Speaker 7: You out a good muscle, So that's a key part

882
00:41:31,261 --> 00:41:33,901
Speaker 7: of my particular routine and.

883
00:41:33,902 --> 00:41:34,862
Speaker 1: A ton of ptiblity.

884
00:41:35,582 --> 00:41:38,582
Speaker 3: That was forty three year old actor Jessica Biel, who

885
00:41:38,661 --> 00:41:42,182
Speaker 3: has recently start in the series The Better Sister, talking

886
00:41:42,221 --> 00:41:46,021
Speaker 3: about how her back broke the internet. So in one scene,

887
00:41:46,022 --> 00:41:48,542
Speaker 3: there's this iconic image going around. She's walking in a

888
00:41:48,582 --> 00:41:52,902
Speaker 3: white sort of backless dress and she has this incredibly strong,

889
00:41:53,102 --> 00:41:56,501
Speaker 3: defined back, which as a beauty standard, I find really

890
00:41:56,542 --> 00:41:59,542
Speaker 3: interesting the evolution of how that's become a marker of

891
00:41:59,582 --> 00:42:03,422
Speaker 3: sort of fitness. But someone said to her, drop the routine,

892
00:42:03,462 --> 00:42:05,622
Speaker 3: tell us how you're getting that back, and so shumped

893
00:42:05,661 --> 00:42:09,062
Speaker 3: on TikTok posted this video and it has now been viewed.

894
00:42:08,822 --> 00:42:10,142
Speaker 4: Three and a half month million times.

895
00:42:10,342 --> 00:42:11,542
Speaker 1: I'm so tired, She.

896
00:42:11,661 --> 00:42:14,462
Speaker 4: Breaks down this workout. This is what I'm doing.

897
00:42:14,902 --> 00:42:18,261
Speaker 3: We've spoken about the era of radical transparency when it

898
00:42:18,302 --> 00:42:22,821
Speaker 3: comes to cosmetic procedures, and it feels like increasingly we're

899
00:42:22,982 --> 00:42:27,902
Speaker 3: entering the era of radical workout transparency. So Bill says

900
00:42:28,022 --> 00:42:30,341
Speaker 3: that she's not twenty anymore, and this is what I

901
00:42:30,382 --> 00:42:34,982
Speaker 3: do to look like that apart from being brilliant promo

902
00:42:35,062 --> 00:42:37,422
Speaker 3: for the show, because now everyone's seen that dress and

903
00:42:37,422 --> 00:42:39,182
Speaker 3: everyone's going I want to see her in that dress.

904
00:42:39,422 --> 00:42:41,261
Speaker 3: She's just got this ad in front of a lot

905
00:42:41,261 --> 00:42:44,422
Speaker 3: of people. Holly, what did you make of this video?

906
00:42:45,622 --> 00:42:48,661
Speaker 2: It's so funny because when we were talking about this,

907
00:42:49,422 --> 00:42:53,261
Speaker 2: I was all like, yay. I love it when celebrities

908
00:42:53,302 --> 00:42:55,902
Speaker 2: admit that, you know, it takes an enormous amount of

909
00:42:55,942 --> 00:42:59,382
Speaker 2: work and discipline and rigidity, as she says, like to

910
00:42:59,462 --> 00:43:02,062
Speaker 2: be that person that woman in that dress required her

911
00:43:02,062 --> 00:43:04,462
Speaker 2: to basically make that her full time job. I love

912
00:43:04,542 --> 00:43:07,102
Speaker 2: it when celebrities are honest about that because I think

913
00:43:07,142 --> 00:43:09,781
Speaker 2: that kind of pulls back this idea that we're all

914
00:43:09,902 --> 00:43:11,702
Speaker 2: used to just walk around with the idea that this tiny.

915
00:43:11,741 --> 00:43:16,022
Speaker 2: One percent of beautiful people just look like that entirely, effortlessly,

916
00:43:16,062 --> 00:43:18,142
Speaker 2: and the rest of us are unfortunate. So I like

917
00:43:18,181 --> 00:43:20,062
Speaker 2: it when they're like, no, this ruins my life to

918
00:43:20,102 --> 00:43:21,422
Speaker 2: look like that, And then I get to go, well,

919
00:43:21,462 --> 00:43:23,422
Speaker 2: I don't want my life ruined. So I was like, yeay, Jessica,

920
00:43:23,942 --> 00:43:27,502
Speaker 2: and then I've watched the video and now I'm like,

921
00:43:27,862 --> 00:43:32,862
Speaker 2: fuck you, Jessica Biel. Why because so Jessica Bill is

922
00:43:32,902 --> 00:43:36,422
Speaker 2: ten years younger than me, ten years older than you, right, yeah,

923
00:43:36,582 --> 00:43:39,942
Speaker 2: so she is like, not young, not old. She is

924
00:43:40,142 --> 00:43:43,821
Speaker 2: forty three when you watch the video, and she's there

925
00:43:43,862 --> 00:43:47,341
Speaker 2: going I'm not twenty anymore and I'm not in that

926
00:43:47,422 --> 00:43:49,301
Speaker 2: kind of shape anymore, and I'm just trying to work

927
00:43:49,342 --> 00:43:52,381
Speaker 2: my web. She looks no one in the universe has

928
00:43:52,422 --> 00:43:54,422
Speaker 2: ever looked better in a pair of leggings, and she

929
00:43:54,701 --> 00:43:58,462
Speaker 2: is tiny, and she is incredibly toned and her bottom

930
00:43:58,622 --> 00:44:04,022
Speaker 2: is put like. She looks unbelievable. So the relatable queenness

931
00:44:04,102 --> 00:44:06,981
Speaker 2: of it is gone. And now I'm just like, that

932
00:44:07,822 --> 00:44:08,702
Speaker 2: is impossible.

933
00:44:08,862 --> 00:44:12,502
Speaker 3: I don't think there's a relatable queenness element of this.

934
00:44:12,661 --> 00:44:16,142
Speaker 3: I watched this video and then I was among the

935
00:44:16,422 --> 00:44:20,382
Speaker 3: something like one hundred and thirteen thousand people who didn't

936
00:44:20,382 --> 00:44:24,381
Speaker 3: click like they clicked save. I clicked save, and the

937
00:44:24,422 --> 00:44:26,982
Speaker 3: next time I was in the gym, I got this

938
00:44:27,142 --> 00:44:28,062
Speaker 3: up and I did it.

939
00:44:28,382 --> 00:44:28,661
Speaker 2: I did.

940
00:44:30,102 --> 00:44:31,462
Speaker 4: I did not look like her.

941
00:44:31,462 --> 00:44:33,382
Speaker 2: And she's just casually while she's talking to you, a

942
00:44:33,422 --> 00:44:35,062
Speaker 2: little bit out of breath in that video, by the way,

943
00:44:35,261 --> 00:44:36,181
Speaker 2: she's in the splits.

944
00:44:36,422 --> 00:44:37,902
Speaker 4: Oh that bit, that bit.

945
00:44:37,781 --> 00:44:40,301
Speaker 2: I will oh.

946
00:44:40,342 --> 00:44:43,422
Speaker 4: I was so impressed what I seen me do this?

947
00:44:43,422 --> 00:44:45,182
Speaker 1: Please? Why you're talking?

948
00:44:46,542 --> 00:44:49,701
Speaker 3: See, now that's genetic, that's genetic. I stretch and I

949
00:44:49,741 --> 00:44:52,062
Speaker 3: can never do it. She's pretty good.

950
00:44:52,102 --> 00:44:53,461
Speaker 4: You're just like Jessica Bill.

951
00:44:53,781 --> 00:44:56,221
Speaker 2: You Jessica Bill? Are you Jim Bunny? Bitches?

952
00:44:56,502 --> 00:44:57,821
Speaker 4: Do you stretch every day?

953
00:44:58,422 --> 00:44:58,502
Speaker 7: No?

954
00:44:58,582 --> 00:44:59,222
Speaker 1: I know it was stretch.

955
00:44:59,862 --> 00:45:00,902
Speaker 4: See, that's just genetic.

956
00:45:01,102 --> 00:45:03,382
Speaker 1: That was just I did ballet when I was younger.

957
00:45:05,462 --> 00:45:09,022
Speaker 3: Look, the reason I liked this is because I go

958
00:45:09,102 --> 00:45:11,182
Speaker 3: to the gym. I'm getting all this information about strength

959
00:45:11,181 --> 00:45:12,822
Speaker 3: and how we should be doing our strength things.

960
00:45:13,062 --> 00:45:14,942
Speaker 4: But I already muscle building too.

961
00:45:15,221 --> 00:45:17,422
Speaker 2: But I'm a normal person, and I find it almost

962
00:45:17,462 --> 00:45:18,542
Speaker 2: impossible to get there.

963
00:45:18,741 --> 00:45:21,502
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, But when I do get there and I'm

964
00:45:21,502 --> 00:45:23,341
Speaker 3: doing a thing, often I feel like maybe I'm doing

965
00:45:23,382 --> 00:45:25,142
Speaker 3: the wrong thing, and I look around other people and

966
00:45:25,142 --> 00:45:27,542
Speaker 3: I'm like, should I be doing that? You're lifting it

967
00:45:27,622 --> 00:45:30,781
Speaker 3: like this, but I'm doing this. A personal trainer is

968
00:45:31,062 --> 00:45:33,582
Speaker 3: prohibitively expensive. I've got my membership, but.

969
00:45:33,781 --> 00:45:34,381
Speaker 2: You've got time.

970
00:45:34,942 --> 00:45:36,261
Speaker 1: I find Jim's so intimidated.

971
00:45:36,302 --> 00:45:38,861
Speaker 3: But what I like about this is that she has

972
00:45:38,942 --> 00:45:43,542
Speaker 3: access and she cites her very fancy trainer who has

973
00:45:43,582 --> 00:45:47,221
Speaker 3: told her to do very fancy and important exercises, and

974
00:45:47,462 --> 00:45:49,342
Speaker 3: a lot of personal trainers have jumped in and gone,

975
00:45:49,502 --> 00:45:52,301
Speaker 3: Jessica Bill, great form, this is great. This is something

976
00:45:52,342 --> 00:45:54,421
Speaker 3: that women should be doing. And with any workout, it's

977
00:45:54,462 --> 00:45:56,701
Speaker 3: like I probably didn't do it with as heavy weight

978
00:45:56,741 --> 00:45:59,022
Speaker 3: so as she did, but I actually thought it was

979
00:45:59,142 --> 00:46:04,582
Speaker 3: relatively accessible and I liked the transparency of I have

980
00:46:04,661 --> 00:46:08,102
Speaker 3: to do this, probably, you know, several times a week

981
00:46:08,181 --> 00:46:11,221
Speaker 3: in order to look like this, which is Chris Hemsworth

982
00:46:11,261 --> 00:46:13,661
Speaker 3: has come out and said that zac Efron said for

983
00:46:13,741 --> 00:46:18,022
Speaker 3: his Baywatch role that he developed crippling depression and insomnia

984
00:46:18,102 --> 00:46:19,342
Speaker 3: as a result of what they had to do. Like

985
00:46:19,422 --> 00:46:21,901
Speaker 3: Chris Hemsworth doesn't look like Chris Hemsworth. I think that

986
00:46:21,902 --> 00:46:23,542
Speaker 3: that's always a bit of an empowering man.

987
00:46:23,622 --> 00:46:26,982
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I agree. But then you see what Jessica

988
00:46:27,022 --> 00:46:30,142
Speaker 2: Beel's version of I'm out of shape at the moment is,

989
00:46:30,822 --> 00:46:33,062
Speaker 2: and you're right back to the same place that you

990
00:46:33,102 --> 00:46:37,382
Speaker 2: always were, which is like, that's an impossible beauty standard.

991
00:46:37,502 --> 00:46:39,622
Speaker 3: And I just commented, give me the upper body workout.

992
00:46:39,661 --> 00:46:41,062
Speaker 3: That's what I was pissed off about, is that I

993
00:46:41,062 --> 00:46:42,741
Speaker 3: got the lower body. And I was like, bitch, I

994
00:46:42,741 --> 00:46:44,862
Speaker 3: want your back? Am I doing rose?

995
00:46:44,902 --> 00:46:45,382
Speaker 2: I want to know.

996
00:46:46,062 --> 00:46:49,622
Speaker 1: I'm feelty tired for the back to become important, like

997
00:46:49,701 --> 00:46:53,821
Speaker 1: I'm still dealing with my front. I was driving to

998
00:46:53,902 --> 00:46:56,861
Speaker 1: work this morning and I saw an ad at a

999
00:46:56,862 --> 00:46:59,941
Speaker 1: bus stop. It just said back and it had this

1000
00:47:00,622 --> 00:47:03,422
Speaker 1: girl with some spray and I didn't know what the

1001
00:47:03,422 --> 00:47:07,582
Speaker 1: spray was for. And then it said something about all

1002
00:47:07,622 --> 00:47:11,542
Speaker 1: over mist or something. Oh, we're having a cultural moment

1003
00:47:11,582 --> 00:47:15,262
Speaker 1: of the focus on the female back, which I just can't.

1004
00:47:15,502 --> 00:47:16,622
Speaker 1: I just can't.

1005
00:47:16,862 --> 00:47:18,622
Speaker 2: We used to have that. We used to have There

1006
00:47:18,661 --> 00:47:20,062
Speaker 2: was a whole thing about like how do you look

1007
00:47:20,102 --> 00:47:22,182
Speaker 2: when you walk out of the room in your backless dress?

1008
00:47:22,221 --> 00:47:23,781
Speaker 2: And now that is back.

1009
00:47:23,862 --> 00:47:25,102
Speaker 1: Who is a backless dress?

1010
00:47:25,142 --> 00:47:28,502
Speaker 2: My boots are too beep? The problem is and I

1011
00:47:28,542 --> 00:47:31,102
Speaker 2: know this is all individual, and I'm always the one

1012
00:47:31,102 --> 00:47:34,062
Speaker 2: who's here saying like, you know, just because one woman's

1013
00:47:34,102 --> 00:47:35,942
Speaker 2: doing this, it doesn't mean you should feel bad about that.

1014
00:47:36,022 --> 00:47:38,982
Speaker 2: But we are being bombarded by a message at the

1015
00:47:38,982 --> 00:47:41,501
Speaker 2: moment women and not just older women but all women,

1016
00:47:41,622 --> 00:47:44,381
Speaker 2: about strength, and it is true and it is right,

1017
00:47:44,462 --> 00:47:46,301
Speaker 2: and new research is coming out all the time at

1018
00:47:46,342 --> 00:47:49,941
Speaker 2: the moment say it's unbelievably important for us to live long,

1019
00:47:50,062 --> 00:47:52,582
Speaker 2: healthy lives, that we work in our strength. But the

1020
00:47:52,661 --> 00:47:55,182
Speaker 2: problem to me is that so I'm at the moment

1021
00:47:55,221 --> 00:47:56,902
Speaker 2: on in that place you know, where you get to

1022
00:47:56,902 --> 00:47:58,502
Speaker 2: it at certain times where you're like teetering on the

1023
00:47:58,582 --> 00:48:00,102
Speaker 2: edge of I know I need to get back into

1024
00:48:00,142 --> 00:48:02,982
Speaker 2: serious exercise. You two bitches talk about your weight regimes

1025
00:48:03,022 --> 00:48:05,622
Speaker 2: all the time. It's all around me, and I think

1026
00:48:05,622 --> 00:48:07,622
Speaker 2: I'm just about to do it. And for me, when

1027
00:48:07,622 --> 00:48:10,742
Speaker 2: I see something like this, it's a barrier to entry.

1028
00:48:10,822 --> 00:48:14,261
Speaker 1: It's not atage gape, not inspired.

1029
00:48:14,661 --> 00:48:18,941
Speaker 2: What I feel like is like that looks impossible. She

1030
00:48:19,062 --> 00:48:22,062
Speaker 2: is holding herself up as like I'm just doing this

1031
00:48:22,102 --> 00:48:24,502
Speaker 2: because I know that strength is important for my health,

1032
00:48:24,542 --> 00:48:27,781
Speaker 2: when really she's doing it because in order to be

1033
00:48:27,781 --> 00:48:30,022
Speaker 2: allowed on a television screen. She has to be so

1034
00:48:30,862 --> 00:48:33,462
Speaker 2: believably hot, she has to ruin her life to do it.

1035
00:48:33,542 --> 00:48:35,582
Speaker 2: I functionally, I feel like I can't walk into a

1036
00:48:35,622 --> 00:48:36,382
Speaker 2: gym tomorrow.

1037
00:48:36,582 --> 00:48:38,941
Speaker 1: I don't know if she's ruining her life, but she's she.

1038
00:48:38,902 --> 00:48:40,901
Speaker 2: Said herself, she said, I can't live like that all

1039
00:48:40,942 --> 00:48:41,421
Speaker 2: the time. Yeah.

1040
00:48:41,502 --> 00:48:44,942
Speaker 1: Right, Well, she's certainly dedicating her life to it. I

1041
00:48:44,942 --> 00:48:48,382
Speaker 1: think it's this dichotomy that we're caught in as women,

1042
00:48:48,582 --> 00:48:52,622
Speaker 1: where we're not allowed to say we want to exercise

1043
00:48:52,902 --> 00:48:55,422
Speaker 1: or eat more protein or do weights to look a

1044
00:48:55,422 --> 00:48:57,542
Speaker 1: certain way. We've got to say it's for our health.

1045
00:48:58,382 --> 00:49:01,261
Speaker 1: She said the quiet part out loud, which is I

1046
00:49:01,302 --> 00:49:03,301
Speaker 1: couldn't look like this in the dress. I only do

1047
00:49:03,422 --> 00:49:05,542
Speaker 1: this to be in a movie. Now, that's not about health.

1048
00:49:05,542 --> 00:49:07,782
Speaker 1: That's about anesthetics, which is interesting, which is fine.

1049
00:49:07,781 --> 00:49:09,781
Speaker 3: But because I watch that, and maybe the reason that

1050
00:49:09,862 --> 00:49:12,942
Speaker 3: I didn't feel particularly triggered or upset by it is

1051
00:49:12,982 --> 00:49:15,782
Speaker 3: that when I went to do that routine, it actually

1052
00:49:15,822 --> 00:49:18,181
Speaker 3: wasn't to look like Jessica Biel. I can genuinely say that,

1053
00:49:18,221 --> 00:49:19,462
Speaker 3: and the reason I go to the gym is not

1054
00:49:19,462 --> 00:49:21,301
Speaker 3: to look like Jessica Bill. It is because I've had

1055
00:49:21,741 --> 00:49:23,701
Speaker 3: hip and knee and all these issues, and I know

1056
00:49:23,741 --> 00:49:25,501
Speaker 3: that everyone's told me you've got to get stronger glues

1057
00:49:25,542 --> 00:49:27,622
Speaker 3: and blah blah blah, So that is why I'm doing it.

1058
00:49:27,661 --> 00:49:30,782
Speaker 3: But Holly, that's a really good point because my sister

1059
00:49:30,822 --> 00:49:34,902
Speaker 3: Claire wrote a brilliant substack about exercise and the messaging

1060
00:49:34,902 --> 00:49:37,661
Speaker 3: that we're getting. And I see this all the time

1061
00:49:37,701 --> 00:49:40,741
Speaker 3: when I jump online and it is someone going your

1062
00:49:40,741 --> 00:49:43,461
Speaker 3: pilate's workout isn't doing what you think it is, which

1063
00:49:43,462 --> 00:49:46,142
Speaker 3: is probably why I go when I feel like I'm

1064
00:49:46,221 --> 00:49:50,381
Speaker 3: constantly doing the wrong thing, which is so it makes

1065
00:49:50,422 --> 00:49:54,542
Speaker 3: me want to stop going, because in reality, going and

1066
00:49:54,582 --> 00:49:56,981
Speaker 3: moving your body in any form is a great thing.

1067
00:49:57,342 --> 00:49:59,982
Speaker 3: But when we keep moving the benchmark and the expertise

1068
00:50:00,022 --> 00:50:01,942
Speaker 3: of like I was watching something last night that was

1069
00:50:01,982 --> 00:50:03,942
Speaker 3: telling me you've got a lift to fatigue, you've got

1070
00:50:03,982 --> 00:50:06,022
Speaker 3: to do this, or it's not going to do anything exactly,

1071
00:50:06,261 --> 00:50:10,222
Speaker 3: it makes it totally inaccessible to ninety five of people

1072
00:50:10,382 --> 00:50:12,221
Speaker 3: who are not working out to be an athlete and

1073
00:50:12,261 --> 00:50:13,662
Speaker 3: are not working out to be in a film.

1074
00:50:13,781 --> 00:50:16,662
Speaker 2: And I think most people, certainly women around my age,

1075
00:50:16,701 --> 00:50:19,342
Speaker 2: are these days working out for health, like of course

1076
00:50:19,382 --> 00:50:21,502
Speaker 2: they want to keep a certain level of what you

1077
00:50:21,542 --> 00:50:24,502
Speaker 2: look like. But it's the message that we're getting is

1078
00:50:24,542 --> 00:50:26,942
Speaker 2: going in, which is like, if you want to be

1079
00:50:27,542 --> 00:50:29,382
Speaker 2: living the way you want to live when you're older,

1080
00:50:29,661 --> 00:50:31,661
Speaker 2: you need to sort this out. And so I'm so

1081
00:50:32,102 --> 00:50:34,062
Speaker 2: I'm right on the edge of wanting to sort it out.

1082
00:50:34,582 --> 00:50:36,661
Speaker 2: But then you feel like, well, I couldn't possibly walk

1083
00:50:36,701 --> 00:50:38,861
Speaker 2: into a gym and lift some dumbbells because oh my god,

1084
00:50:38,902 --> 00:50:41,462
Speaker 2: look at this, that's how and so it closes the

1085
00:50:41,502 --> 00:50:45,221
Speaker 2: door again. You knowlutely, it's not Jessica Biel's fault. Go Jessica,

1086
00:50:45,902 --> 00:50:48,341
Speaker 2: but honestly, tell me, most people in the gym don't

1087
00:50:48,342 --> 00:50:48,701
Speaker 2: look like that.

1088
00:50:48,862 --> 00:50:50,502
Speaker 4: Oh they don't, don't Holly.

1089
00:50:50,542 --> 00:50:52,261
Speaker 3: I'm there and I might have tried that workout, but

1090
00:50:52,302 --> 00:50:53,941
Speaker 3: I didn't look at anything like Jessica Bielle.

1091
00:50:53,942 --> 00:50:56,502
Speaker 2: I'll tell you that. A big thank you to all

1092
00:50:56,502 --> 00:50:58,582
Speaker 2: of you. That's all we've got time for today. Wherever

1093
00:50:58,582 --> 00:51:00,502
Speaker 2: you're listening to us, maybe you're listening to us while

1094
00:51:00,502 --> 00:51:03,622
Speaker 2: you're lifting your dumbbells or doing the splits like Mia,

1095
00:51:03,701 --> 00:51:05,622
Speaker 2: we love you out loud as for being part of

1096
00:51:05,661 --> 00:51:07,981
Speaker 2: our show, and of course we love our fabulous team

1097
00:51:07,982 --> 00:51:09,022
Speaker 2: for helping us put it together.

1098
00:51:09,582 --> 00:51:11,701
Speaker 1: If you're looking for something else to listen to, We

1099
00:51:11,781 --> 00:51:15,582
Speaker 1: had lots of questions about Hole's summer euro Vaka.

1100
00:51:16,062 --> 00:51:17,462
Speaker 2: I'm one of those awful people.

1101
00:51:17,661 --> 00:51:20,181
Speaker 1: Many nosy questions. We will put a link in the

1102
00:51:20,181 --> 00:51:22,262
Speaker 1: show notes if you want a debrief with Whole.

1103
00:51:22,542 --> 00:51:25,542
Speaker 4: Bye bye by by shout out.

1104
00:51:25,382 --> 00:51:27,582
Speaker 1: To any Mum and Maya subscribers listening.

1105
00:51:27,781 --> 00:51:30,062
Speaker 2: If you love the show and want to support us

1106
00:51:30,102 --> 00:51:30,901
Speaker 2: as well.

1107
00:51:30,741 --> 00:51:33,261
Speaker 1: Subscribing to MoMA Miya is the very best way to

1108
00:51:33,302 --> 00:51:35,701
Speaker 1: do so. There is a link in the episode description.