Speaker 1: You're listening to another Me podcast.
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to part two of our special double
Speaker 2: episode on conversations and speaking at work with one of
Speaker 2: the most listened to people on the planet right now,
Speaker 2: Jefferson Fisher. If you heard part one last week, you
Speaker 2: might already be speaking more clearly and with less words,
Speaker 2: or you might be a little less pissed off a
Speaker 2: people at work because you are choosing curiosity before judgment.
Speaker 2: So how did your homework go? I picked for my
Speaker 2: homework one thing that I really wanted to focus on,
Speaker 2: and for me, this has been a bit of a
Speaker 2: lifelong journey with overapologizing. So this is part of being assertive.
Speaker 2: And you know, I am a prolific overapologizer. I've actually
Speaker 2: had it in several of my performance reviews at work.
Speaker 2: And really, you know, when we're talking about apologizing, it's
Speaker 2: not real apologies. It's the ones where you know it's
Speaker 2: not actually your fault, or you don't really mean you're sorry,
Speaker 2: you mean something else, but you don't feel confident enough
Speaker 2: to say it. So after Jefferson spoke on our last
Speaker 2: episode about stopping over apologizing, I want you to listen
Speaker 2: in to what I say to him about one minute later. Sorry.
Speaker 2: I think there's a bit of a delay on this call,
Speaker 2: which is making it hard. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1: You see what you did?
Speaker 2: Fault?
Speaker 3: I do?
Speaker 2: I did you.
Speaker 1: See what you just did?
Speaker 2: I did? Now I want you to listen in to
Speaker 2: what I say to him at the end of the interview.
Speaker 2: I said I was going to keep you for five
Speaker 2: minutes extra. I kept you for twenty five minutes extra.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry and thank you. You heard me say sorry
Speaker 2: for the delay on the call. What I will now
Speaker 2: say instead is thank you for working through the delay
Speaker 2: with me. Instead of saying sorry, we ran overtime. Now
Speaker 2: I will say thanks for giving us so much of
Speaker 2: your time today, Jefferson. So this is why you sort
Speaker 2: of need to buy the book I think big, because
Speaker 2: what you get out of the book is an understanding
Speaker 2: of why you're doing this behavior. So the groundbreaking thing
Speaker 2: for me was this line that I read, your self
Speaker 2: worth isn't tied to what a little inconvenience you can be.
Speaker 2: And what I realize is so much of my overapologizing
Speaker 2: was tied to my sense of self worth and low
Speaker 2: self esteem and trying to make myself small and not
Speaker 2: being an inconvenience to other people. So where I had
Speaker 2: a shift was in realizing that showing up as assertive
Speaker 2: isn't just for how I am perceived by other people.
Speaker 2: It's actually for how I'm perceiving myself. There is a
Speaker 2: feedback loop you create when you are constantly apologizing for
Speaker 2: things that aren't your fault, and that is diminishing your
Speaker 2: own sense of self worth and it's feeding into this
Speaker 2: loop of low self esteem. So understanding that is what
Speaker 2: has helped me to start to change that behavior. It's
Speaker 2: still a journey. I'm definitely not perfect and I'm still
Speaker 2: doing it, but I've made massive progress and that feels awesome.
Speaker 2: So what you're getting out of the episode today, part
Speaker 2: two is so good. By the way, we are getting
Speaker 2: into the work scenarios that you gave me. I went
Speaker 2: out on socials and I asked you, guys, what are
Speaker 2: your biggest work scenarios that you really want me to
Speaker 2: ask about? And so we are getting into how to
Speaker 2: stop over talking, how to sound confident even when you
Speaker 2: don't feel it, what to do when you feel triggered
Speaker 2: at work, but you need to have a constructive conversation.
Speaker 2: And you're also going to learn something that you can
Speaker 2: do as a parent, so your kids tell the truth more.
Speaker 2: And I start with a question that's possibly the number
Speaker 2: one thing that I get asked by young people. True.
Speaker 2: I work a lot with young people with gen Z,
Speaker 2: and something that they really struggle with in the workplace
Speaker 2: is just this forming connections with people at work, particularly
Speaker 2: people who are more senior than them. You know, they're young.
Speaker 2: Everyone is more senior and more experience than them, so
Speaker 2: this idea of everyone's quite intimidating. They want to be respectful,
Speaker 2: but they also want to, you know, form their social connections.
Speaker 2: Do you have any advice for young people in terms
Speaker 2: of how they can have conversations at.
Speaker 1: Work, whether it's young people or older people. One thing
Speaker 1: that they can do that is going to increase the
Speaker 1: social interactions that they have and improve their status within
Speaker 1: any organization is to become the student. Whenever you are
Speaker 1: talking to somebody, particularly if they are a next level
Speaker 1: above you, supervising and manager, whatever it is, become the student.
Speaker 1: And here's what I mean. When you come into conversation
Speaker 1: with them, maybe you're curious about how you want to
Speaker 1: get promoted, or what you want to do, or what
Speaker 1: you want Instead of coming in with your list of demands,
Speaker 1: you become the student, ask questions about how they got there.
Speaker 1: People love to tell stories. Let's say your upper management
Speaker 1: and I set some time I'm aside. This is key.
Speaker 1: I'm not just randomly coming into your office. I've already emailed,
Speaker 1: We've set aside ten minutes for me to come by.
Speaker 1: I have a quick chat. I'm going to begin with,
Speaker 1: so what did you do in your time here? Do
Speaker 1: you feel like really made a difference in your impact
Speaker 1: or what did you feel really brought you to the
Speaker 1: next level? How did you know that this was the
Speaker 1: place for you? Asking questions that put you as the student,
Speaker 1: and you're writing down notes because that gets them to talk.
Speaker 2: Hear.
Speaker 1: How if let's say, Sophie, I wanted to talk to
Speaker 1: you about a raise, and I sat down and I said, hey, look,
Speaker 1: so I've been doing some research here and I think
Speaker 1: I should be paid more. And if I'm not paid more,
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is the place for me.
Speaker 1: Hear how all of a sudden, it separates immediately, this
Speaker 1: us versus you. You're going to start feeling like I'm
Speaker 1: part of the company, the organization, and you're now the
Speaker 1: outcast because you're making a list of demands, or maybe
Speaker 1: you're trying to not in a threatening way, but now
Speaker 1: you're putting me in a tight spot. We tend to
Speaker 1: think that all all managers are unlike us, and all
Speaker 1: employees are unlike the manager. So, for example, when I
Speaker 1: was at my first law firm, and this happens everywhere
Speaker 1: I'm as start out, I was an associate. That's what
Speaker 1: they're called associates. At a law firm, there's associates and partners.
Speaker 1: When I was an associate, I would complain about the
Speaker 1: partners all the time. I say, these partners they don't
Speaker 1: get us, they didn't understand, you know, they blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: They're on their own world. And the day that I
Speaker 1: became a partner, So if I got an email from
Speaker 1: an associate and I was like, these associates all they
Speaker 1: do is wine and complain, like you have this way
Speaker 1: of just flipping it right, of acting like they're not
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, they're not the same person. They're
Speaker 1: not human. They're unlike you. When you ask yourself instead
Speaker 1: of coming in with your list of demands, saying so,
Speaker 1: when you were in my position, what did you find
Speaker 1: to be the best way to increase your salary, or
Speaker 1: if you wanted to increase your salary in my position,
Speaker 1: what would you do? Become the student and people will
Speaker 1: be glad to teach you why because they love to
Speaker 1: talk about how they got there. They love to tell
Speaker 1: a story about themselves.
Speaker 2: I think with these, you know, six generations in a
Speaker 2: workplace right now, and it's all there's a lot of
Speaker 2: like us versus them going on. Just something you said
Speaker 2: in that you know, we're all just humans and it's
Speaker 2: like putting yourself on the same level, but approaching it
Speaker 2: with curiosity, and you know, every conversation is something you
Speaker 2: can learn from. It immediately makes that person feel less
Speaker 2: intimidating to me because it's just like you're just learning
Speaker 2: from the experience. I love that we're gonna get now, Jefferson,
Speaker 2: into some of our most requested scenarios. So we went
Speaker 2: out to our community and these are the things that
Speaker 2: they really want your help with. So we'll get through
Speaker 2: as many of these as we can. But i'd love
Speaker 2: just sort of some quick advice and maybe one of
Speaker 2: your beautiful phrases. You're so good at these phrases or
Speaker 2: these sentence starters. So I'm just gonna go through some
Speaker 2: of these scenarios now. So the first scenario is you
Speaker 2: want to keep communication constructive, but you're feeling triggered or
Speaker 2: angry in the workplace.
Speaker 1: I would use the phrase I can tell, rather than
Speaker 1: acting upon that trigger. What I say is when you
Speaker 1: claim you control it, Sophie, meaning if I'm feeling defensive
Speaker 1: over something that you said or frustrated. Instead of me
Speaker 1: acting frustrated, which might be me just you know, sighing,
Speaker 1: letting out a big breath, throw it out my hands,
Speaker 1: that's acting on frustration. That's not emotional intelligence. Instead, when
Speaker 1: you claim it, you control it, meaning I'm going to
Speaker 1: say out loud, I can tell that makes me frustrated.
Speaker 1: I can tell I'm getting frustrated. That's you grabbing that emotion,
Speaker 1: looking at it, and then putting it on the table
Speaker 1: and still being engaged in the conversation. And that shows
Speaker 1: so much emotional maturity and conversation. When you can say
Speaker 1: something like I can tell I'm not ready for this conversation.
Speaker 1: I can tell I need a time out. I can
Speaker 1: tell I'm getting defensive. I can tell. Is a wonderful
Speaker 1: way of grabbing your own emotions, having control over them,
Speaker 1: and then more importantly, showing to the other person their
Speaker 1: effect without you unleashing them on them.
Speaker 2: I can instantly imagine using that at work. I think
Speaker 2: that's what I love so much about the way that
Speaker 2: you phrase things. You know, so many other experts and
Speaker 2: even myself sometimes like you hear them say things and
Speaker 2: you're like, nah, I would never say that, but you know,
Speaker 2: it's so human, it's so right, and you're owning what
Speaker 2: you can own, which is how you're feeling, and you're
Speaker 2: just putting it out there so that they know. I
Speaker 2: love that. The next one is, this is a really
Speaker 2: big one, especially for me, but for a lot of people,
Speaker 2: how to stop over talking when you're in a one
Speaker 2: to one with your manager.
Speaker 1: There is one tool that I teach when it comes
Speaker 1: to over talking or over explaining, and it's this mindset,
Speaker 1: don't be a waterfall, be a well. So rather than
Speaker 1: feeling like they have to give you have to give
Speaker 1: all the information, there's this feeling we have to give
Speaker 1: all the context. What happens when we over explain, it's
Speaker 1: almost the opposite effect, this idea of the more words
Speaker 1: it takes to tell the truth, the more it sounds
Speaker 1: like a lie. The more you explain, the longer it
Speaker 1: takes you to get to the point, the more it
Speaker 1: sounds like you may not know exactly what you're talking about.
Speaker 1: So instead you want to think of yourself as a well.
Speaker 1: That means short responses, and if somebody else has a question,
Speaker 1: they will ask. I teach this to when I prepare
Speaker 1: my clients through depositions and cross examinations. I say, when
Speaker 1: you answer, only answer the question. Keep it short and
Speaker 1: brief and sweet, because the longer your answer, I can
Speaker 1: be rest assured the more questions they're going to get.
Speaker 1: So rather than being a waterfall, feel well, Oh my god.
Speaker 2: It's so true, especially when you are communicating with any leaders,
Speaker 2: we feel nervous. They ask us a question after our
Speaker 2: presentation and will want to talk for like three paragraphs.
Speaker 2: And really they wanted like it's launching in June.
Speaker 1: You know exactly? They wanted three words, that was it.
Speaker 2: Silence and pausing is so important, but I find it
Speaker 2: so hard that I'm still trying to learn to pause
Speaker 2: when I talk. Any tips or advice for learning to
Speaker 2: be silent?
Speaker 1: Yes, And I teach this to every single one of
Speaker 1: my clients. Before you respond, or when somebody is saying
Speaker 1: something you don't like and you can feel yourself certainly
Speaker 1: get heated up, use what I call a conversational breath.
Speaker 1: Let your breath be the first word that you say.
Speaker 1: Your first word would be in your response, the very
Speaker 1: first word. You're going to put a breath in its place.
Speaker 1: And there is such a piece and power and control
Speaker 1: that you feel when you understand, Sophie, that you control
Speaker 1: the pace of the conversation. You are in control of
Speaker 1: the pace, the speed of the conversation. It cannot happen
Speaker 1: any faster than you respond. And the person that shows
Speaker 1: most control of the pace is the person who also
Speaker 1: shows themselves to be most control of themselves. And I
Speaker 1: love this rule because you can hear the difference. If
Speaker 1: you were to ask me a Jefferson, how is your day?
Speaker 1: And I immediately said it was good? I mean it
Speaker 1: was real good. I mean, yeah, it was good. It
Speaker 1: was good, Zobe. It doesn't really sound like I listened
Speaker 1: to it, right, It didn't really sound like I engaged
Speaker 1: and thought about your question. Now, if you asked me
Speaker 1: how's your day? And I took a breath and thought
Speaker 1: about it, and I said.
Speaker 2: It's good.
Speaker 1: You know what it was good. You believe that answer
Speaker 1: now because I listened, I acknowledged, I took it in,
Speaker 1: and I thought about it and I chewed on it.
Speaker 1: So people who like in an interview, when somebody has
Speaker 1: a rapid fire response, it's usually telling that they're not listening.
Speaker 1: Same thing I see in the courtroom. But the person
Speaker 1: who in an interview you get a question and you
Speaker 1: take a beat two seconds, three seconds to actually take
Speaker 1: a breath, It shows that I have the control of maturity,
Speaker 1: actually think about this before I respond. Those are the
Speaker 1: people that are more trusted.
Speaker 2: Oh man. I think about every communicator that I've worked
Speaker 2: with that I really admire, and they do that. You're
Speaker 2: just like, wow, they're really thinking about this. This one.
Speaker 2: Next one is how to sound more confident than I feel.
Speaker 2: So you spoke before confidence being a feeling if you
Speaker 2: don't feel confident, but you want to sound confident. Any
Speaker 2: tips for sounding more confident than you feel.
Speaker 1: Yes, here's a phrase. And by the way, we didn't
Speaker 1: rehearse these for anybody listening. We're just rolling with these
Speaker 1: as we're calling. Here's a phrase you're going to like
Speaker 1: for anybody who feels like, you know, I don't feel
Speaker 1: that confident, but I want to sound confident. Is you
Speaker 1: just use the word confident, So instead of saying I
Speaker 1: think so or I believe so, you simply switch it
Speaker 1: to I'm confident that So if you were let's say
Speaker 1: you're interviewing the Sophie and you said, you know, do
Speaker 1: you think you'd be a good part of this company?
Speaker 1: And I could respond I think I would. I think
Speaker 1: it could be a very valued member, versus me saying
Speaker 1: I'm confident I bring a lot of value to this company,
Speaker 1: which you know what they're going to write on their notes.
Speaker 1: They're going to say this person is so confident and
Speaker 1: underline it. I mean, that's just all you need to
Speaker 1: do is use the word and they will naturally align
Speaker 1: you with the feeling of confidence instantly.
Speaker 2: Everyone listening, this is something that you can do today.
Speaker 2: I absolutely love that. This is probably the hardest one.
Speaker 2: So I'm possibly setting you up for complete value here
Speaker 2: because I actually think this is probably the hardest thing
Speaker 2: you can do at work, giving feedback to someone who's
Speaker 2: more senior than you. Any advice you can give us
Speaker 2: on this one.
Speaker 1: So yeah, let's put it in some context, you say,
Speaker 1: somebody is ahead of you in some kind of managerial
Speaker 1: role and you need to give.
Speaker 2: Them Yeah, exactly. So let's say it's someone who is
Speaker 2: more seny than you. But maybe they're on another team.
Speaker 2: So maybe let's say it's not your direct manager. You're
Speaker 2: working with them on a project, and you don't like
Speaker 2: the way that they're interacting with the rest of the
Speaker 2: people in the project, for example, you need to give
Speaker 2: them some feedback on that.
Speaker 1: I'm going to give a thought on feedback that can
Speaker 1: be almost universally applied is whenever you need to get
Speaker 1: feedback with somebody, you need to detach the personal as
Speaker 1: best you can. So if you were going to ask
Speaker 1: me to give you feedback on your proposal, Sophie, and
Speaker 1: I said, you know, your proposal really doesn't make call
Speaker 1: that much sense to me, truthfully. I mean, I just
Speaker 1: I think it's kind of confusing. Now you're going to
Speaker 1: all of a sudden probably get defensive of that because
Speaker 1: I used to word your But if I used to
Speaker 1: word the and I detach it as if it's its
Speaker 1: own separate entity, where I was going to give you
Speaker 1: feedback and I said something along the lines of the
Speaker 1: proposal could benefit from some clarity. I got through it fine,
Speaker 1: but the proposal could be a little bit better. Here,
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you're not going to find that
Speaker 1: you're going to take near lee as personally because it's
Speaker 1: not you. It's not your am. Second of all, when
Speaker 1: you can add on to it. So let's say it's
Speaker 1: your proposal, and I said, instead of this like, it
Speaker 1: was good, it was really good. But and all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, you know a negatives coming. Instead of that,
Speaker 1: use language that adds onto it. So just switch the
Speaker 1: word butt for the word and so it could be
Speaker 1: as simple as No, I really liked it. And what
Speaker 1: I think would make it even better, Sophie, is if
Speaker 1: you did X, Y and Z. So when I use that,
Speaker 1: when I add on to it. You know what would
Speaker 1: be really cool as if idea whatever it is, now
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, it's like we're working on it
Speaker 1: together rather than you saying it's great, but I would
Speaker 1: prefer it have this on it now. You're not taking
Speaker 1: away from it now, I'm not making it personal.
Speaker 2: I love that because I'm connecting so many things right
Speaker 2: now that you've said, which is this idea that it's
Speaker 2: not me versus you put yourself on the same side
Speaker 2: and the problem on the other, you know, the flipping it.
Speaker 2: So don't start with the good thing and then say,
Speaker 2: but you want to be you know, actually the assertive language.
Speaker 2: You want to build, so you want to like what
Speaker 2: could you add and you kind of use that versus
Speaker 2: just saying I don't like it, and then also not
Speaker 2: making it personal. It's about the work, not about them.
Speaker 2: Keep it focused on the work or the thing and
Speaker 2: not about them as a person.
Speaker 1: And you can do that even with let's say, if
Speaker 1: it's somebody's words, instead of saying your words, you could
Speaker 1: do the emails that I get, the language that I'm receiving,
Speaker 1: the words that I get in this office are not
Speaker 1: nearly as uplifting as I need them to be. Like,
Speaker 1: there's always a way to detach the personal. That's the
Speaker 1: point that's going to get you a whole lot farther
Speaker 1: when it comes to feedback.
Speaker 2: That's clever because I actually thought, you know, I've set
Speaker 2: him up for Valley, because I've given him an example
Speaker 2: of an executive kind of interacting with humans. How do
Speaker 2: you separate that it's not actually like a work or
Speaker 2: a document that they made, but you just did it.
Speaker 2: So it's like the words that they're saying, or the
Speaker 2: you know, the vibe they're creating in the room, whatever,
Speaker 2: you just focus on that. I love it. The last
Speaker 2: one is you want to push back on someone, but
Speaker 2: you don't want to sound difficult. Any phrases we can
Speaker 2: use for this one.
Speaker 1: There's a phrase that you can use anytime that you
Speaker 1: disagree with someone without feeling like you have to be
Speaker 1: rude about it or up on their face. And it's this,
Speaker 1: I see things differently. You want to disagree with someone,
Speaker 1: Instead of going I disagree and they're going to get defensive,
Speaker 1: the spikes are going to come out. Instead, just say
Speaker 1: I see things differently, or I take another approach, or
Speaker 1: I have a different perspective. People don't get defensive when
Speaker 1: you use words of vision or something you see. So
Speaker 1: what you're doing is you are not criticizing their point.
Speaker 1: That's what we typically do. We want to argue their point,
Speaker 1: but they could actually have a point. It's just the
Speaker 1: problem is their point isn't yours, and you think your
Speaker 1: point is better. Instead of arguing the point, argue the
Speaker 1: perspective and people are much more prone to go, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: what do you see versus what are you saying? I'm wrong?
Speaker 1: I could never be wrong, and they get really defensive
Speaker 1: over that. So a very easy way to do is
Speaker 1: just say I see things differently.
Speaker 2: It's so true because also that is most of why
Speaker 2: we do disagree at work. A lot of the time
Speaker 2: we are coming from different perspectives, We've had different data,
Speaker 2: we work on different projects, we come from different teams.
Speaker 2: So that is just like the truth. I absolutely love that.
Speaker 2: All right, We're going to bring this home now, Jefferson,
Speaker 2: because I know you've got to get off the call
Speaker 2: very quickly. Any tips for making this stick? I feel
Speaker 2: like I've just learned so much and I really want
Speaker 2: people to be able to create some change after listening
Speaker 2: to this episode. How can we actually make some of
Speaker 2: this stick.
Speaker 1: Well, everybody's a little different, so up to their personal taste.
Speaker 1: But what I have found is you try to only
Speaker 1: remember one point. So just pick one thing that Sophie
Speaker 1: I discussed if you can write it down and why,
Speaker 1: because that just gives you another outlet of absorption rather
Speaker 1: than just listening, you're now writing it out and seeing
Speaker 1: it visually. If you can maybe you're a doodler and
Speaker 1: you like to draw things out, put it on a
Speaker 1: sticky note, whatever it is. And then I think it's
Speaker 1: wonderful to get what we would call an accountability partner,
Speaker 1: somebody that you can talk to a best friend, that
Speaker 1: you can say, hey, look, I'm really trying to work
Speaker 1: on my overapologizing. If you hear me say I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: just tell me or whatever it is, try and fix
Speaker 1: it in your next text, in your next email. All
Speaker 1: of that, it's just one quick way of trying to
Speaker 1: apply one rule at a time.
Speaker 2: I need that accountability partner to help me stop saying sorry.
Speaker 1: I'm here for you, I'm here for you.
Speaker 2: Love it. And finally, very quickly, I want you to
Speaker 2: give us one tip for each of these three things.
Speaker 2: And I'm going to tell you and this is something
Speaker 2: our listeners can start doing tomorrow to be better. What
Speaker 2: is something our listeners can start doing to be a
Speaker 2: better coworker?
Speaker 1: More genuine questions. When somebody shares their weekend with you,
Speaker 1: instead of immediately start sharing your own, ask them one question,
Speaker 1: any question you could say, what was your favorite part,
Speaker 1: what was the funniest moment, or what we're most excited
Speaker 1: about any of that, just asking one question rather than
Speaker 1: trying to steal somebody's thunder and compete with who had
Speaker 1: the better weekend.
Speaker 2: One thing we can start doing to be a better
Speaker 2: life partner be.
Speaker 1: Quick to apologize and to correct intention. The longer you
Speaker 1: hold on to apologizing, the more resentment is created. Instead,
Speaker 1: be very quick to say what your intention was. Say no,
Speaker 1: that wasn't My intention was to say blah blah blah blah,
Speaker 1: and the other person's going, oh, well, what I interpreted
Speaker 1: was blah blah blah blah. So the quicker you can
Speaker 1: get to intentions, it's like it's pulling the way the
Speaker 1: curtain a lot faster instead of just expecting the other
Speaker 1: person to understand what you meant or pick up on something.
Speaker 1: So instead of having these unsaid, unvoiced expectations, get in
Speaker 1: the habit of revealing your intentions sooner when conflict happens.
Speaker 2: And then the final one is something we can do
Speaker 2: to stop being a better parent.
Speaker 1: Be a safe space as much as you can so
Speaker 1: when your kid is coming to you and they've done
Speaker 1: something wrong, instead of going how could you possibly do this?
Speaker 1: And what's wrong with you? And exploding and yelling. All
Speaker 1: you're doing is telling them when you've done something wrong,
Speaker 1: do not come to me. Bad things happen when you
Speaker 1: come to dad. Bad things happen when you come to mom.
Speaker 1: And fast forward when they're going to be sixteen, seventeen, eighteen,
Speaker 1: and they're really going to be doing some bad things,
Speaker 1: they're not going to want to come to you. And
Speaker 1: that's the last place I want to be in my
Speaker 1: life is when my kids. If my kids ever feel
Speaker 1: like they can't come tell me when they do something wrong,
Speaker 1: I want to be the next person they come to.
Speaker 2: Incredibly beautiful Jefferson closing thought from you anything else that
Speaker 2: you think is important for our listeners to know before
Speaker 2: we wrap up.
Speaker 1: I just want them to know that they can really
Speaker 1: change anything. If they felt like their communication is not
Speaker 1: where they want it to be, well they can change
Speaker 1: all of it in the next conversation. It's why I
Speaker 1: wrote the book is because you don't have to worry
Speaker 1: and fred over how you handle the last conversation. You
Speaker 1: can change everything about your life simply by what you
Speaker 1: decided to say next in the next conversation.
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more And this is why I think
Speaker 2: communication should be a core subject taught at school. Jefferson,
Speaker 2: this was an unreal conversation. Thank you so much for
Speaker 2: giving us your time and your wisdom today.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, I'm honored to be on. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much.
Speaker 3: So if I loved those three questions that you posed
Speaker 3: at the end as well. One thing that really stood
Speaker 3: out to me in this second part was the conversational breath.
Speaker 3: I think that is such a good tip and again
Speaker 3: just such an easy one to literally start with today,
Speaker 3: and a great way to slow conversations down, especially if
Speaker 3: you might not even really be clear on like where
Speaker 3: your train of thought is going, so you don't just
Speaker 3: speak for the sake of speaking.
Speaker 2: I agree, I actually think because I have a lot
Speaker 2: of young people say to me, you know, I'm sitting
Speaker 2: there in a meeting room and it's going around the
Speaker 2: room in an update, and I'm just sitting there getting
Speaker 2: more and more nervous and kind of panicking. Giving yourself
Speaker 2: a conversational breath, and even you know that piece around
Speaker 2: stopping over talking, if you just take a breath first
Speaker 2: and almost just like let yourself gather your thoughts, it's
Speaker 2: going to come out so much more clearly.
Speaker 3: Another thing that we wanted to call out for everyone
Speaker 3: listening is Jefferson's book. The Next Conversation is one hundred
Speaker 3: percent something that you could ask your company, your manager
Speaker 3: to expense. So if you want to get the full
Speaker 3: download on his knowledge expert Tease Wisdom, then hit your
Speaker 3: manager up and ask for a copy of his book.
Speaker 2: That's such a good point because honestly, like you can
Speaker 2: learn from his sixty second TikTok videos, you might pick
Speaker 2: up a phrase that you can use, but you need
Speaker 2: to understand your underlying behaviors that are going on and
Speaker 2: your thought patterns, and it goes so deep. And so
Speaker 2: what the book does is it really helps you understand
Speaker 2: the why behind all your behaviors, behind other people's behaviors.
Speaker 2: And that actually means when we're giving you these phrases,
Speaker 2: or when you're seeing the phrases that he's sharing on TikTok,
Speaker 2: you can actually create change for yourself. If you're just
Speaker 2: sort of, you know, doing these simple phrase swaps, it's
Speaker 2: not actually sort of understanding what's going on on a
Speaker 2: deeper level. So I do think reading the book and
Speaker 2: actually having your whole team read the book would genuinely
Speaker 2: create a massive change.
Speaker 3: Yeah, start a book club and you get everyone on
Speaker 3: board this one. I know you also have some quick
Speaker 3: wins in the form of homework for everyone. So what
Speaker 3: can the listeners work on this week?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so noting what we just said around building yourself
Speaker 2: a really solid foundation when it comes to communication. There
Speaker 2: are some very small things that you can change that
Speaker 2: have a massive impact in Some of those things are
Speaker 2: what we shared in the episode. So I'm going to
Speaker 2: run through these homework. Piece Number one how to keep
Speaker 2: constructive when you're feeling triggered. So remember what he said,
Speaker 2: turn it back on yourself and acknowledge how you are feeling,
Speaker 2: so you can say, I can tell I'm getting frustrated
Speaker 2: or I can feel myself getting defensive, and I want
Speaker 2: this conversation to stay constructive. Number two we talked about
Speaker 2: how to stop over talking. This is a big one
Speaker 2: for me if our producer Georgie as well. So try
Speaker 2: this when you were in a meeting with your manager
Speaker 2: or someone else. Practice answering their questions with one sentence
Speaker 2: and then stopping, let people ask if they want more detail,
Speaker 2: and just remember how powerful silence is is it is
Speaker 2: so hard. So like if you were good at having
Speaker 2: silence in conversations. Please send me a DM and tell
Speaker 2: me because I cannot do it. I really struggle, but
Speaker 2: I'm going to try and practice this, So say a sentence,
Speaker 2: stop let them ask questions. Number three homework for you
Speaker 2: is how to sound more confident when you don't feel it.
Speaker 2: So this for me, I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: use the word confident more. So instead of saying you know,
Speaker 2: I think this might help, you can say I'm confident.
Speaker 2: This will add value. Just use the word confident more.
Speaker 3: Number four is.
Speaker 2: How to push back without being combatitive. So this again
Speaker 2: one of my favorite things that I learned in the
Speaker 2: episode was using the words I see it differently. So
Speaker 2: instead of saying I actually disagree with what you're saying,
Speaker 2: you can say I see it differently, and then using
Speaker 2: those words of addition that he said, so you know,
Speaker 2: I see it differently something maybe that we haven't thought
Speaker 2: about yet, and then you can share your point of view, Michelle.
Speaker 2: Of those four, which is the one that you're going
Speaker 2: to focus on the most, the.
Speaker 3: Last one for me, because I am an offender of
Speaker 3: I disagree and you know that robably doesn't start things
Speaker 3: off on the best foot, so I will be switching
Speaker 3: to I see it differently.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening to our double episode.
Speaker 2: Michelle and I genuinely hope that if you can put
Speaker 2: some of this stuff into practice at work, that you
Speaker 2: see actual change for yourself. If you do try this stuff,
Speaker 2: by the way, drop us a DM and let us
Speaker 2: know how it goes. Viz by Mama Mia on Instagram,
Speaker 2: and we're back solving your workplace dilemmas in our Viz
Speaker 2: Inbox episode on Thursday. Bye Bye, Mamma Mia acknowledges the
Speaker 2: traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is
Speaker 2: recorded on