WEBVTT - How To Stop Over-Explaining And Start Impressing: Jefferson Fisher's Communication Secrets 0:00:06.610 --> 0:00:10.250 You're listening to another Me podcast. 0:00:13.490 --> 0:00:16.250 Hello, and welcome to part two of our special double 0:00:16.290 --> 0:00:20.089 episode on conversations and speaking at work with one of 0:00:20.130 --> 0:00:23.010 the most listened to people on the planet right now, 0:00:23.130 --> 0:00:27.170 Jefferson Fisher. If you heard part one last week, you 0:00:27.250 --> 0:00:30.850 might already be speaking more clearly and with less words, 0:00:31.290 --> 0:00:33.970 or you might be a little less pissed off a 0:00:34.050 --> 0:00:38.330 people at work because you are choosing curiosity before judgment. 0:00:38.970 --> 0:00:42.850 So how did your homework go? I picked for my 0:00:43.010 --> 0:00:46.450 homework one thing that I really wanted to focus on, 0:00:46.570 --> 0:00:48.810 and for me, this has been a bit of a 0:00:48.850 --> 0:00:53.770 lifelong journey with overapologizing. So this is part of being assertive. 0:00:53.930 --> 0:00:58.210 And you know, I am a prolific overapologizer. I've actually 0:00:58.210 --> 0:01:01.250 had it in several of my performance reviews at work. 0:01:01.970 --> 0:01:05.330 And really, you know, when we're talking about apologizing, it's 0:01:05.370 --> 0:01:08.089 not real apologies. It's the ones where you know it's 0:01:08.170 --> 0:01:11.610 not actually your fault, or you don't really mean you're sorry, 0:01:11.649 --> 0:01:14.169 you mean something else, but you don't feel confident enough 0:01:14.209 --> 0:01:17.369 to say it. So after Jefferson spoke on our last 0:01:17.410 --> 0:01:21.249 episode about stopping over apologizing, I want you to listen 0:01:21.289 --> 0:01:25.089 in to what I say to him about one minute later. Sorry. 0:01:25.130 --> 0:01:26.649 I think there's a bit of a delay on this call, 0:01:26.690 --> 0:01:28.169 which is making it hard. I'm so sorry. 0:01:28.770 --> 0:01:29.450 You see what you did? 0:01:29.569 --> 0:01:29.850 Fault? 0:01:30.050 --> 0:01:30.410 I do? 0:01:30.569 --> 0:01:31.009 I did you. 0:01:31.089 --> 0:01:32.209 See what you just did? 0:01:32.330 --> 0:01:35.490 I did? Now I want you to listen in to 0:01:35.610 --> 0:01:38.170 what I say to him at the end of the interview. 0:01:38.649 --> 0:01:40.009 I said I was going to keep you for five 0:01:40.009 --> 0:01:42.330 minutes extra. I kept you for twenty five minutes extra. 0:01:42.449 --> 0:01:46.769 I'm sorry and thank you. You heard me say sorry 0:01:46.770 --> 0:01:49.690 for the delay on the call. What I will now 0:01:49.730 --> 0:01:53.570 say instead is thank you for working through the delay 0:01:53.610 --> 0:01:58.210 with me. Instead of saying sorry, we ran overtime. Now 0:01:58.250 --> 0:02:00.770 I will say thanks for giving us so much of 0:02:00.809 --> 0:02:04.090 your time today, Jefferson. So this is why you sort 0:02:04.130 --> 0:02:05.809 of need to buy the book I think big, because 0:02:05.850 --> 0:02:08.450 what you get out of the book is an understanding 0:02:08.450 --> 0:02:10.889 of why you're doing this behavior. So the groundbreaking thing 0:02:10.970 --> 0:02:14.450 for me was this line that I read, your self 0:02:14.490 --> 0:02:18.490 worth isn't tied to what a little inconvenience you can be. 0:02:19.050 --> 0:02:22.169 And what I realize is so much of my overapologizing 0:02:22.650 --> 0:02:25.930 was tied to my sense of self worth and low 0:02:25.970 --> 0:02:28.690 self esteem and trying to make myself small and not 0:02:28.730 --> 0:02:31.690 being an inconvenience to other people. So where I had 0:02:31.690 --> 0:02:35.250 a shift was in realizing that showing up as assertive 0:02:35.450 --> 0:02:38.970 isn't just for how I am perceived by other people. 0:02:39.330 --> 0:02:42.570 It's actually for how I'm perceiving myself. There is a 0:02:42.570 --> 0:02:46.010 feedback loop you create when you are constantly apologizing for 0:02:46.090 --> 0:02:48.850 things that aren't your fault, and that is diminishing your 0:02:48.850 --> 0:02:51.610 own sense of self worth and it's feeding into this 0:02:51.690 --> 0:02:55.090 loop of low self esteem. So understanding that is what 0:02:55.290 --> 0:02:58.850 has helped me to start to change that behavior. It's 0:02:58.850 --> 0:03:00.850 still a journey. I'm definitely not perfect and I'm still 0:03:00.850 --> 0:03:03.730 doing it, but I've made massive progress and that feels awesome. 0:03:03.930 --> 0:03:07.770 So what you're getting out of the episode today, part 0:03:07.770 --> 0:03:10.090 two is so good. By the way, we are getting 0:03:10.090 --> 0:03:12.610 into the work scenarios that you gave me. I went 0:03:12.650 --> 0:03:14.250 out on socials and I asked you, guys, what are 0:03:14.290 --> 0:03:16.490 your biggest work scenarios that you really want me to 0:03:16.530 --> 0:03:19.490 ask about? And so we are getting into how to 0:03:19.490 --> 0:03:22.450 stop over talking, how to sound confident even when you 0:03:22.490 --> 0:03:25.530 don't feel it, what to do when you feel triggered 0:03:25.530 --> 0:03:27.850 at work, but you need to have a constructive conversation. 0:03:28.330 --> 0:03:30.330 And you're also going to learn something that you can 0:03:30.370 --> 0:03:33.090 do as a parent, so your kids tell the truth more. 0:03:33.850 --> 0:03:36.730 And I start with a question that's possibly the number 0:03:36.770 --> 0:03:40.210 one thing that I get asked by young people. True. 0:03:48.250 --> 0:03:50.250 I work a lot with young people with gen Z, 0:03:51.090 --> 0:03:54.130 and something that they really struggle with in the workplace 0:03:54.330 --> 0:03:59.290 is just this forming connections with people at work, particularly 0:03:59.330 --> 0:04:02.290 people who are more senior than them. You know, they're young. 0:04:02.410 --> 0:04:05.170 Everyone is more senior and more experience than them, so 0:04:05.250 --> 0:04:08.850 this idea of everyone's quite intimidating. They want to be respectful, 0:04:08.890 --> 0:04:11.730 but they also want to, you know, form their social connections. 0:04:12.370 --> 0:04:15.450 Do you have any advice for young people in terms 0:04:15.490 --> 0:04:17.490 of how they can have conversations at. 0:04:17.409 --> 0:04:22.250 Work, whether it's young people or older people. One thing 0:04:22.290 --> 0:04:26.729 that they can do that is going to increase the 0:04:26.810 --> 0:04:30.410 social interactions that they have and improve their status within 0:04:30.650 --> 0:04:35.450 any organization is to become the student. Whenever you are 0:04:35.490 --> 0:04:39.370 talking to somebody, particularly if they are a next level 0:04:39.410 --> 0:04:44.290 above you, supervising and manager, whatever it is, become the student. 0:04:44.530 --> 0:04:47.010 And here's what I mean. When you come into conversation 0:04:47.130 --> 0:04:49.490 with them, maybe you're curious about how you want to 0:04:49.490 --> 0:04:51.690 get promoted, or what you want to do, or what 0:04:51.730 --> 0:04:54.250 you want Instead of coming in with your list of demands, 0:04:54.770 --> 0:04:58.450 you become the student, ask questions about how they got there. 0:04:59.210 --> 0:05:02.810 People love to tell stories. Let's say your upper management 0:05:03.490 --> 0:05:06.969 and I set some time I'm aside. This is key. 0:05:07.010 --> 0:05:10.330 I'm not just randomly coming into your office. I've already emailed, 0:05:10.370 --> 0:05:12.570 We've set aside ten minutes for me to come by. 0:05:12.570 --> 0:05:14.570 I have a quick chat. I'm going to begin with, 0:05:14.690 --> 0:05:18.650 so what did you do in your time here? Do 0:05:18.690 --> 0:05:20.810 you feel like really made a difference in your impact 0:05:21.170 --> 0:05:22.730 or what did you feel really brought you to the 0:05:22.770 --> 0:05:24.370 next level? How did you know that this was the 0:05:24.410 --> 0:05:28.330 place for you? Asking questions that put you as the student, 0:05:28.970 --> 0:05:32.370 and you're writing down notes because that gets them to talk. 0:05:33.290 --> 0:05:33.450 Hear. 0:05:33.490 --> 0:05:35.930 How if let's say, Sophie, I wanted to talk to 0:05:35.930 --> 0:05:38.770 you about a raise, and I sat down and I said, hey, look, 0:05:38.770 --> 0:05:41.610 so I've been doing some research here and I think 0:05:41.610 --> 0:05:45.050 I should be paid more. And if I'm not paid more, 0:05:45.170 --> 0:05:46.330 I don't know if this is the place for me. 0:05:47.210 --> 0:05:50.450 Hear how all of a sudden, it separates immediately, this 0:05:50.690 --> 0:05:53.810 us versus you. You're going to start feeling like I'm 0:05:53.850 --> 0:05:55.810 part of the company, the organization, and you're now the 0:05:55.850 --> 0:05:58.410 outcast because you're making a list of demands, or maybe 0:05:58.410 --> 0:06:01.250 you're trying to not in a threatening way, but now 0:06:01.250 --> 0:06:03.370 you're putting me in a tight spot. We tend to 0:06:03.410 --> 0:06:07.130 think that all all managers are unlike us, and all 0:06:07.170 --> 0:06:11.530 employees are unlike the manager. So, for example, when I 0:06:11.650 --> 0:06:14.729 was at my first law firm, and this happens everywhere 0:06:15.010 --> 0:06:16.969 I'm as start out, I was an associate. That's what 0:06:16.970 --> 0:06:20.090 they're called associates. At a law firm, there's associates and partners. 0:06:20.610 --> 0:06:22.490 When I was an associate, I would complain about the 0:06:22.530 --> 0:06:24.490 partners all the time. I say, these partners they don't 0:06:24.490 --> 0:06:27.250 get us, they didn't understand, you know, they blah blah blah. 0:06:27.250 --> 0:06:29.890 They're on their own world. And the day that I 0:06:30.090 --> 0:06:32.490 became a partner, So if I got an email from 0:06:32.530 --> 0:06:35.370 an associate and I was like, these associates all they 0:06:35.490 --> 0:06:38.930 do is wine and complain, like you have this way 0:06:38.970 --> 0:06:41.890 of just flipping it right, of acting like they're not 0:06:42.130 --> 0:06:43.770 all of a sudden, they're not the same person. They're 0:06:43.770 --> 0:06:47.810 not human. They're unlike you. When you ask yourself instead 0:06:47.810 --> 0:06:49.530 of coming in with your list of demands, saying so, 0:06:49.610 --> 0:06:51.930 when you were in my position, what did you find 0:06:51.970 --> 0:06:54.529 to be the best way to increase your salary, or 0:06:54.530 --> 0:06:56.610 if you wanted to increase your salary in my position, 0:06:56.650 --> 0:06:59.730 what would you do? Become the student and people will 0:06:59.770 --> 0:07:02.330 be glad to teach you why because they love to 0:07:02.370 --> 0:07:04.330 talk about how they got there. They love to tell 0:07:04.330 --> 0:07:05.730 a story about themselves. 0:07:06.170 --> 0:07:08.409 I think with these, you know, six generations in a 0:07:08.450 --> 0:07:10.770 workplace right now, and it's all there's a lot of 0:07:10.850 --> 0:07:14.450 like us versus them going on. Just something you said 0:07:14.490 --> 0:07:17.450 in that you know, we're all just humans and it's 0:07:17.490 --> 0:07:20.090 like putting yourself on the same level, but approaching it 0:07:20.090 --> 0:07:22.690 with curiosity, and you know, every conversation is something you 0:07:22.730 --> 0:07:25.890 can learn from. It immediately makes that person feel less 0:07:25.890 --> 0:07:28.090 intimidating to me because it's just like you're just learning 0:07:28.090 --> 0:07:31.650 from the experience. I love that we're gonna get now, Jefferson, 0:07:31.730 --> 0:07:34.810 into some of our most requested scenarios. So we went 0:07:34.850 --> 0:07:37.610 out to our community and these are the things that 0:07:37.610 --> 0:07:39.890 they really want your help with. So we'll get through 0:07:39.890 --> 0:07:41.730 as many of these as we can. But i'd love 0:07:41.890 --> 0:07:44.170 just sort of some quick advice and maybe one of 0:07:44.210 --> 0:07:46.970 your beautiful phrases. You're so good at these phrases or 0:07:47.010 --> 0:07:50.010 these sentence starters. So I'm just gonna go through some 0:07:50.090 --> 0:07:53.450 of these scenarios now. So the first scenario is you 0:07:53.690 --> 0:07:57.690 want to keep communication constructive, but you're feeling triggered or 0:07:57.770 --> 0:07:59.090 angry in the workplace. 0:07:59.450 --> 0:08:02.370 I would use the phrase I can tell, rather than 0:08:02.530 --> 0:08:05.170 acting upon that trigger. What I say is when you 0:08:05.210 --> 0:08:09.130 claim you control it, Sophie, meaning if I'm feeling defensive 0:08:09.330 --> 0:08:12.890 over something that you said or frustrated. Instead of me 0:08:13.010 --> 0:08:17.690 acting frustrated, which might be me just you know, sighing, 0:08:17.770 --> 0:08:20.170 letting out a big breath, throw it out my hands, 0:08:20.170 --> 0:08:23.690 that's acting on frustration. That's not emotional intelligence. Instead, when 0:08:23.730 --> 0:08:25.330 you claim it, you control it, meaning I'm going to 0:08:25.370 --> 0:08:27.690 say out loud, I can tell that makes me frustrated. 0:08:27.890 --> 0:08:32.210 I can tell I'm getting frustrated. That's you grabbing that emotion, 0:08:32.370 --> 0:08:34.210 looking at it, and then putting it on the table 0:08:34.449 --> 0:08:37.850 and still being engaged in the conversation. And that shows 0:08:37.890 --> 0:08:41.890 so much emotional maturity and conversation. When you can say 0:08:41.890 --> 0:08:44.170 something like I can tell I'm not ready for this conversation. 0:08:44.490 --> 0:08:46.010 I can tell I need a time out. I can 0:08:46.010 --> 0:08:49.290 tell I'm getting defensive. I can tell. Is a wonderful 0:08:49.330 --> 0:08:53.090 way of grabbing your own emotions, having control over them, 0:08:53.130 --> 0:08:55.650 and then more importantly, showing to the other person their 0:08:55.690 --> 0:08:58.370 effect without you unleashing them on them. 0:08:58.570 --> 0:09:01.730 I can instantly imagine using that at work. I think 0:09:01.730 --> 0:09:03.290 that's what I love so much about the way that 0:09:03.330 --> 0:09:06.209 you phrase things. You know, so many other experts and 0:09:06.490 --> 0:09:09.050 even myself sometimes like you hear them say things and 0:09:09.090 --> 0:09:10.890 you're like, nah, I would never say that, but you know, 0:09:10.930 --> 0:09:14.250 it's so human, it's so right, and you're owning what 0:09:14.290 --> 0:09:16.170 you can own, which is how you're feeling, and you're 0:09:16.170 --> 0:09:17.810 just putting it out there so that they know. I 0:09:17.850 --> 0:09:20.930 love that. The next one is, this is a really 0:09:20.930 --> 0:09:23.930 big one, especially for me, but for a lot of people, 0:09:24.450 --> 0:09:27.130 how to stop over talking when you're in a one 0:09:27.170 --> 0:09:28.410 to one with your manager. 0:09:28.930 --> 0:09:32.650 There is one tool that I teach when it comes 0:09:32.690 --> 0:09:36.370 to over talking or over explaining, and it's this mindset, 0:09:36.810 --> 0:09:40.730 don't be a waterfall, be a well. So rather than 0:09:40.770 --> 0:09:42.930 feeling like they have to give you have to give 0:09:43.090 --> 0:09:45.850 all the information, there's this feeling we have to give 0:09:45.930 --> 0:09:50.329 all the context. What happens when we over explain, it's 0:09:50.370 --> 0:09:53.970 almost the opposite effect, this idea of the more words 0:09:53.970 --> 0:09:56.690 it takes to tell the truth, the more it sounds 0:09:56.730 --> 0:10:00.690 like a lie. The more you explain, the longer it 0:10:00.690 --> 0:10:02.210 takes you to get to the point, the more it 0:10:02.210 --> 0:10:05.130 sounds like you may not know exactly what you're talking about. 0:10:05.890 --> 0:10:08.850 So instead you want to think of yourself as a well. 0:10:09.210 --> 0:10:12.650 That means short responses, and if somebody else has a question, 0:10:13.130 --> 0:10:16.170 they will ask. I teach this to when I prepare 0:10:16.210 --> 0:10:19.890 my clients through depositions and cross examinations. I say, when 0:10:19.930 --> 0:10:22.650 you answer, only answer the question. Keep it short and 0:10:22.730 --> 0:10:25.090 brief and sweet, because the longer your answer, I can 0:10:25.130 --> 0:10:27.770 be rest assured the more questions they're going to get. 0:10:28.130 --> 0:10:32.050 So rather than being a waterfall, feel well, Oh my god. 0:10:31.890 --> 0:10:35.569 It's so true, especially when you are communicating with any leaders, 0:10:35.890 --> 0:10:38.530 we feel nervous. They ask us a question after our 0:10:38.530 --> 0:10:41.810 presentation and will want to talk for like three paragraphs. 0:10:41.810 --> 0:10:46.530 And really they wanted like it's launching in June. 0:10:45.330 --> 0:10:48.210 You know exactly? They wanted three words, that was it. 0:10:48.570 --> 0:10:52.170 Silence and pausing is so important, but I find it 0:10:52.210 --> 0:10:53.970 so hard that I'm still trying to learn to pause 0:10:54.010 --> 0:10:57.730 when I talk. Any tips or advice for learning to 0:10:57.770 --> 0:10:58.330 be silent? 0:10:58.890 --> 0:11:01.890 Yes, And I teach this to every single one of 0:11:01.930 --> 0:11:06.730 my clients. Before you respond, or when somebody is saying 0:11:06.810 --> 0:11:09.130 something you don't like and you can feel yourself certainly 0:11:09.250 --> 0:11:13.050 get heated up, use what I call a conversational breath. 0:11:13.410 --> 0:11:17.050 Let your breath be the first word that you say. 0:11:17.210 --> 0:11:19.450 Your first word would be in your response, the very 0:11:19.490 --> 0:11:23.370 first word. You're going to put a breath in its place. 0:11:24.210 --> 0:11:28.650 And there is such a piece and power and control 0:11:28.690 --> 0:11:33.330 that you feel when you understand, Sophie, that you control 0:11:33.970 --> 0:11:37.290 the pace of the conversation. You are in control of 0:11:37.330 --> 0:11:40.410 the pace, the speed of the conversation. It cannot happen 0:11:40.810 --> 0:11:44.650 any faster than you respond. And the person that shows 0:11:44.690 --> 0:11:47.730 most control of the pace is the person who also 0:11:47.810 --> 0:11:53.050 shows themselves to be most control of themselves. And I 0:11:53.130 --> 0:11:57.490 love this rule because you can hear the difference. If 0:11:58.210 --> 0:12:00.610 you were to ask me a Jefferson, how is your day? 0:12:00.850 --> 0:12:02.530 And I immediately said it was good? I mean it 0:12:02.570 --> 0:12:04.530 was real good. I mean, yeah, it was good. It 0:12:04.530 --> 0:12:07.450 was good, Zobe. It doesn't really sound like I listened 0:12:07.490 --> 0:12:10.010 to it, right, It didn't really sound like I engaged 0:12:10.050 --> 0:12:13.330 and thought about your question. Now, if you asked me 0:12:13.490 --> 0:12:18.490 how's your day? And I took a breath and thought 0:12:18.490 --> 0:12:20.090 about it, and I said. 0:12:20.690 --> 0:12:21.210 It's good. 0:12:21.970 --> 0:12:24.490 You know what it was good. You believe that answer 0:12:24.530 --> 0:12:28.130 now because I listened, I acknowledged, I took it in, 0:12:28.210 --> 0:12:30.050 and I thought about it and I chewed on it. 0:12:30.530 --> 0:12:33.290 So people who like in an interview, when somebody has 0:12:33.290 --> 0:12:35.970 a rapid fire response, it's usually telling that they're not listening. 0:12:36.250 --> 0:12:38.530 Same thing I see in the courtroom. But the person 0:12:38.570 --> 0:12:40.970 who in an interview you get a question and you 0:12:41.050 --> 0:12:45.329 take a beat two seconds, three seconds to actually take 0:12:45.370 --> 0:12:48.930 a breath, It shows that I have the control of maturity, 0:12:48.970 --> 0:12:51.530 actually think about this before I respond. Those are the 0:12:51.530 --> 0:12:52.610 people that are more trusted. 0:12:52.930 --> 0:12:55.290 Oh man. I think about every communicator that I've worked 0:12:55.330 --> 0:12:57.570 with that I really admire, and they do that. You're 0:12:57.650 --> 0:13:00.530 just like, wow, they're really thinking about this. This one. 0:13:00.650 --> 0:13:04.490 Next one is how to sound more confident than I feel. 0:13:04.530 --> 0:13:07.650 So you spoke before confidence being a feeling if you 0:13:07.650 --> 0:13:09.730 don't feel confident, but you want to sound confident. Any 0:13:09.770 --> 0:13:11.730 tips for sounding more confident than you feel. 0:13:12.210 --> 0:13:14.930 Yes, here's a phrase. And by the way, we didn't 0:13:14.930 --> 0:13:17.650 rehearse these for anybody listening. We're just rolling with these 0:13:17.650 --> 0:13:19.850 as we're calling. Here's a phrase you're going to like 0:13:19.850 --> 0:13:21.490 for anybody who feels like, you know, I don't feel 0:13:21.490 --> 0:13:24.570 that confident, but I want to sound confident. Is you 0:13:24.650 --> 0:13:28.090 just use the word confident, So instead of saying I 0:13:28.130 --> 0:13:31.370 think so or I believe so, you simply switch it 0:13:31.410 --> 0:13:34.850 to I'm confident that So if you were let's say 0:13:34.850 --> 0:13:38.730 you're interviewing the Sophie and you said, you know, do 0:13:38.730 --> 0:13:40.210 you think you'd be a good part of this company? 0:13:40.410 --> 0:13:42.650 And I could respond I think I would. I think 0:13:42.650 --> 0:13:45.850 it could be a very valued member, versus me saying 0:13:46.090 --> 0:13:48.890 I'm confident I bring a lot of value to this company, 0:13:49.290 --> 0:13:50.890 which you know what they're going to write on their notes. 0:13:50.930 --> 0:13:53.170 They're going to say this person is so confident and 0:13:53.250 --> 0:13:55.250 underline it. I mean, that's just all you need to 0:13:55.290 --> 0:13:59.490 do is use the word and they will naturally align 0:13:59.530 --> 0:14:02.930 you with the feeling of confidence instantly. 0:14:03.250 --> 0:14:05.970 Everyone listening, this is something that you can do today. 0:14:06.010 --> 0:14:09.450 I absolutely love that. This is probably the hardest one. 0:14:09.450 --> 0:14:11.730 So I'm possibly setting you up for complete value here 0:14:11.730 --> 0:14:14.290 because I actually think this is probably the hardest thing 0:14:14.290 --> 0:14:17.770 you can do at work, giving feedback to someone who's 0:14:17.770 --> 0:14:20.810 more senior than you. Any advice you can give us 0:14:20.850 --> 0:14:21.570 on this one. 0:14:21.410 --> 0:14:23.410 So yeah, let's put it in some context, you say, 0:14:23.490 --> 0:14:27.170 somebody is ahead of you in some kind of managerial 0:14:27.250 --> 0:14:28.530 role and you need to give. 0:14:28.370 --> 0:14:32.170 Them Yeah, exactly. So let's say it's someone who is 0:14:32.210 --> 0:14:34.290 more seny than you. But maybe they're on another team. 0:14:34.330 --> 0:14:36.650 So maybe let's say it's not your direct manager. You're 0:14:36.690 --> 0:14:40.050 working with them on a project, and you don't like 0:14:40.130 --> 0:14:42.810 the way that they're interacting with the rest of the 0:14:42.810 --> 0:14:44.570 people in the project, for example, you need to give 0:14:44.570 --> 0:14:45.650 them some feedback on that. 0:14:45.890 --> 0:14:48.730 I'm going to give a thought on feedback that can 0:14:48.770 --> 0:14:52.050 be almost universally applied is whenever you need to get 0:14:52.090 --> 0:14:55.570 feedback with somebody, you need to detach the personal as 0:14:55.610 --> 0:14:59.490 best you can. So if you were going to ask 0:14:59.570 --> 0:15:02.890 me to give you feedback on your proposal, Sophie, and 0:15:02.930 --> 0:15:05.650 I said, you know, your proposal really doesn't make call 0:15:05.690 --> 0:15:08.730 that much sense to me, truthfully. I mean, I just 0:15:08.970 --> 0:15:11.650 I think it's kind of confusing. Now you're going to 0:15:11.730 --> 0:15:14.650 all of a sudden probably get defensive of that because 0:15:14.650 --> 0:15:16.570 I used to word your But if I used to 0:15:16.610 --> 0:15:19.050 word the and I detach it as if it's its 0:15:19.090 --> 0:15:21.370 own separate entity, where I was going to give you 0:15:21.450 --> 0:15:25.130 feedback and I said something along the lines of the 0:15:25.130 --> 0:15:28.250 proposal could benefit from some clarity. I got through it fine, 0:15:28.290 --> 0:15:30.490 but the proposal could be a little bit better. Here, 0:15:30.610 --> 0:15:32.370 all of a sudden, you're not going to find that 0:15:32.650 --> 0:15:34.930 you're going to take near lee as personally because it's 0:15:34.970 --> 0:15:38.450 not you. It's not your am. Second of all, when 0:15:38.450 --> 0:15:41.410 you can add on to it. So let's say it's 0:15:41.450 --> 0:15:44.690 your proposal, and I said, instead of this like, it 0:15:44.730 --> 0:15:48.130 was good, it was really good. But and all of 0:15:48.130 --> 0:15:50.610 a sudden, you know a negatives coming. Instead of that, 0:15:51.130 --> 0:15:53.850 use language that adds onto it. So just switch the 0:15:54.210 --> 0:15:56.450 word butt for the word and so it could be 0:15:56.490 --> 0:15:58.890 as simple as No, I really liked it. And what 0:15:58.970 --> 0:16:01.210 I think would make it even better, Sophie, is if 0:16:01.250 --> 0:16:05.250 you did X, Y and Z. So when I use that, 0:16:05.810 --> 0:16:07.610 when I add on to it. You know what would 0:16:07.690 --> 0:16:12.530 be really cool as if idea whatever it is, now 0:16:12.650 --> 0:16:14.330 all of a sudden, it's like we're working on it 0:16:14.370 --> 0:16:17.570 together rather than you saying it's great, but I would 0:16:17.650 --> 0:16:19.850 prefer it have this on it now. You're not taking 0:16:19.890 --> 0:16:21.650 away from it now, I'm not making it personal. 0:16:22.170 --> 0:16:24.770 I love that because I'm connecting so many things right 0:16:24.810 --> 0:16:27.330 now that you've said, which is this idea that it's 0:16:27.330 --> 0:16:29.570 not me versus you put yourself on the same side 0:16:29.570 --> 0:16:32.010 and the problem on the other, you know, the flipping it. 0:16:32.050 --> 0:16:34.210 So don't start with the good thing and then say, 0:16:34.250 --> 0:16:37.250 but you want to be you know, actually the assertive language. 0:16:37.290 --> 0:16:38.970 You want to build, so you want to like what 0:16:39.050 --> 0:16:41.730 could you add and you kind of use that versus 0:16:41.810 --> 0:16:43.570 just saying I don't like it, and then also not 0:16:43.610 --> 0:16:46.490 making it personal. It's about the work, not about them. 0:16:46.930 --> 0:16:48.530 Keep it focused on the work or the thing and 0:16:48.570 --> 0:16:49.930 not about them as a person. 0:16:50.170 --> 0:16:52.090 And you can do that even with let's say, if 0:16:52.090 --> 0:16:56.490 it's somebody's words, instead of saying your words, you could 0:16:56.570 --> 0:17:00.370 do the emails that I get, the language that I'm receiving, 0:17:01.050 --> 0:17:03.130 the words that I get in this office are not 0:17:03.290 --> 0:17:05.530 nearly as uplifting as I need them to be. Like, 0:17:05.690 --> 0:17:08.249 there's always a way to detach the personal. That's the 0:17:08.250 --> 0:17:09.690 point that's going to get you a whole lot farther 0:17:09.730 --> 0:17:10.650 when it comes to feedback. 0:17:11.130 --> 0:17:13.330 That's clever because I actually thought, you know, I've set 0:17:13.410 --> 0:17:15.410 him up for Valley, because I've given him an example 0:17:15.450 --> 0:17:17.970 of an executive kind of interacting with humans. How do 0:17:18.010 --> 0:17:20.649 you separate that it's not actually like a work or 0:17:20.650 --> 0:17:22.409 a document that they made, but you just did it. 0:17:22.490 --> 0:17:24.330 So it's like the words that they're saying, or the 0:17:24.690 --> 0:17:26.690 you know, the vibe they're creating in the room, whatever, 0:17:26.810 --> 0:17:29.570 you just focus on that. I love it. The last 0:17:29.570 --> 0:17:33.010 one is you want to push back on someone, but 0:17:33.050 --> 0:17:36.369 you don't want to sound difficult. Any phrases we can 0:17:36.450 --> 0:17:37.170 use for this one. 0:17:37.410 --> 0:17:40.369 There's a phrase that you can use anytime that you 0:17:40.530 --> 0:17:43.090 disagree with someone without feeling like you have to be 0:17:43.170 --> 0:17:45.490 rude about it or up on their face. And it's this, 0:17:46.609 --> 0:17:49.690 I see things differently. You want to disagree with someone, 0:17:49.730 --> 0:17:52.370 Instead of going I disagree and they're going to get defensive, 0:17:52.410 --> 0:17:54.490 the spikes are going to come out. Instead, just say 0:17:54.650 --> 0:17:57.970 I see things differently, or I take another approach, or 0:17:58.010 --> 0:18:01.930 I have a different perspective. People don't get defensive when 0:18:01.930 --> 0:18:06.129 you use words of vision or something you see. So 0:18:06.290 --> 0:18:10.609 what you're doing is you are not criticizing their point. 0:18:11.170 --> 0:18:13.889 That's what we typically do. We want to argue their point, 0:18:14.290 --> 0:18:16.450 but they could actually have a point. It's just the 0:18:16.490 --> 0:18:19.050 problem is their point isn't yours, and you think your 0:18:19.090 --> 0:18:22.649 point is better. Instead of arguing the point, argue the 0:18:22.730 --> 0:18:26.369 perspective and people are much more prone to go, oh, okay, 0:18:26.410 --> 0:18:29.330 what do you see versus what are you saying? I'm wrong? 0:18:29.490 --> 0:18:31.970 I could never be wrong, and they get really defensive 0:18:32.010 --> 0:18:34.570 over that. So a very easy way to do is 0:18:34.730 --> 0:18:36.130 just say I see things differently. 0:18:36.690 --> 0:18:39.490 It's so true because also that is most of why 0:18:39.530 --> 0:18:41.130 we do disagree at work. A lot of the time 0:18:41.210 --> 0:18:44.410 we are coming from different perspectives, We've had different data, 0:18:44.530 --> 0:18:46.930 we work on different projects, we come from different teams. 0:18:47.290 --> 0:18:50.490 So that is just like the truth. I absolutely love that. 0:18:50.650 --> 0:18:52.810 All right, We're going to bring this home now, Jefferson, 0:18:52.810 --> 0:18:54.330 because I know you've got to get off the call 0:18:54.850 --> 0:18:57.570 very quickly. Any tips for making this stick? I feel 0:18:57.570 --> 0:19:00.490 like I've just learned so much and I really want 0:19:00.530 --> 0:19:03.129 people to be able to create some change after listening 0:19:03.130 --> 0:19:05.169 to this episode. How can we actually make some of 0:19:05.170 --> 0:19:05.770 this stick. 0:19:06.010 --> 0:19:09.129 Well, everybody's a little different, so up to their personal taste. 0:19:09.130 --> 0:19:11.450 But what I have found is you try to only 0:19:11.490 --> 0:19:14.850 remember one point. So just pick one thing that Sophie 0:19:14.850 --> 0:19:18.369 I discussed if you can write it down and why, 0:19:18.490 --> 0:19:21.810 because that just gives you another outlet of absorption rather 0:19:21.850 --> 0:19:25.010 than just listening, you're now writing it out and seeing 0:19:25.050 --> 0:19:28.490 it visually. If you can maybe you're a doodler and 0:19:28.530 --> 0:19:30.450 you like to draw things out, put it on a 0:19:30.450 --> 0:19:33.410 sticky note, whatever it is. And then I think it's 0:19:33.609 --> 0:19:36.810 wonderful to get what we would call an accountability partner, 0:19:36.890 --> 0:19:39.810 somebody that you can talk to a best friend, that 0:19:39.890 --> 0:19:42.370 you can say, hey, look, I'm really trying to work 0:19:42.370 --> 0:19:45.850 on my overapologizing. If you hear me say I'm sorry, 0:19:46.170 --> 0:19:50.210 just tell me or whatever it is, try and fix 0:19:50.290 --> 0:19:52.530