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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waders.

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Speaker 2: This podcast was recorded on Hey, I'm Jemma Bath, host

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Speaker 2: of True Crime Conversations and did you know that the

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Speaker 2: team at Mamma Mia is bringing you over one hundred

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Speaker 2: hours of the best content from your award winning podcasts

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Speaker 2: for the Hot Pod Summer of your Dreams. Well, we

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Speaker 2: are here at two Crime Conversations. We've handpicked some of

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Speaker 2: the most chilling and thought provoking episodes from our feed,

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Speaker 2: including gripping cult stories, powerful interviews with crime victims, and

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Speaker 2: in depth accounts from women who have been incarcerated sharing

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Speaker 2: the journeys that led them to that place. And that's

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Speaker 2: just the beginning. Today, I'm bringing you the story of

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Speaker 2: Eve Wiley from No Filter, another amazing podcast on the

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Speaker 2: MMA mea network hosted by Mia Friedman. In this episode,

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Speaker 2: Miya chats with Eve, who is the child of fertility fraud.

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Speaker 2: She talks about how she discovered who her biological father was,

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Speaker 2: a discovery that turned her world upside down and transformed

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Speaker 2: her into a fearless fighter for the women and families

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Speaker 2: who've been harmed by fraudulent and serial sperm donors. If

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Speaker 2: you've seen the Netflix series The Man with One Thousand Kids,

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Speaker 2: you'll be interested in this conversation. Here's the original episode.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen from Mamma Maya. You're listening to No

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Speaker 1: Filter and I'm mea Friedman. How many times can you

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Speaker 1: find out life changing news about your dad? For Eve Wiley,

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Speaker 1: the answer is three times, and it was about three

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Speaker 1: different men. Eve Wiley has had three fathers in her lifetime.

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Speaker 1: One of them sadly passed away when she was seven.

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Speaker 1: One of them is a great guy, but he wasn't

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Speaker 1: who she thought he was, And one of them was

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Speaker 1: an egomaniacal monster. If you watch the Netflix series The

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Speaker 1: Man with a Thousand Kids that told the story of

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Speaker 1: cereal sperm donor Jonathan Meyer, you might recognize Eve's name.

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Speaker 1: She wasn't impregnated by Jonathan, but she helped try and

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Speaker 1: stop him from harming other women, more women, and from

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Speaker 1: doing more damage to the hundreds, probably thousands of children

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Speaker 1: that he's already conceived. But Jonathan isn't the only guy

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Speaker 1: who's trying to superminate the world. There are more serial

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Speaker 1: sperm donors like him out there who For whatever reason,

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Speaker 1: I obsessed with the idea of impregnating women under false

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Speaker 1: pretenses for their own twisted reasons. And nobody knows that

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Speaker 1: better than eight. If you were seven when your father died,

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Speaker 1: how old were you when you discovered that he wasn't

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Speaker 1: actually your biological father.

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Speaker 3: I was sixteen years old when I was going through

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Speaker 3: my mom's emails. She was a school nurse at my school,

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Speaker 3: and so I kind of had this little habit where

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Speaker 3: I would go under her emails and I would find

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Speaker 3: all the juicy gossip on my code words or if

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Speaker 3: you know, maybe a teacher sent an email that like

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Speaker 3: I had a bad grade or something.

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Speaker 4: You know. It was management for myself, was what it was.

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Speaker 3: And that's when I found the emails of my mom

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Speaker 3: email in California, car a bank, and I saw my

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Speaker 3: birth date on it, and my first thought was, you know,

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Speaker 3: from a small town, my grandpa has cows that my

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Speaker 3: mom was doing something for like artificial insemination for the bulls.

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Speaker 1: That wouldn't have been most people's first thought, but I

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Speaker 1: see why that was relevant for you.

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Speaker 3: It was very relevant. But as soon as I saw

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Speaker 3: my birth date, I knew in that exact moment that

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Speaker 3: I was the juicy gossip within the cowort.

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Speaker 4: So that's when I found out that I was doing

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Speaker 4: or conceived.

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Speaker 1: When someone finds something life changing via snooping, there is

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Speaker 1: a dilemma because you've got to admit to the snooping

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Speaker 1: to be able to confront the person about the thing

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Speaker 1: you've discovered. What did you do next?

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Speaker 4: It was late at night.

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Speaker 3: What I did exactly was I ended up playing sims

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Speaker 3: and creating a lot of babies in my sim's game.

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Speaker 4: Interesting kind of playing it out there.

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Speaker 3: But I went to bed and I woke up the

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Speaker 3: next morning and my mom was in the bathroom getting ready,

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Speaker 3: and I just barged in and I was like, Mom, I.

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Speaker 4: Know that Doug isn't my dad.

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Speaker 3: And I just remember her looking at me in the

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Speaker 3: reflection of the mirror and just turning around.

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Speaker 4: She's like, what are you talking about? And she starts bawling.

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Speaker 3: And at the time at this like, you know, it's

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Speaker 3: just a naive sixteen year old. I was excited, you know.

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Speaker 3: For me, I didn't understand the complexities of donor conception,

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Speaker 3: you know, in a social sense, but also in an

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Speaker 3: ethical sense. For me, I was like, I still have

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Speaker 3: you know a dad, I probably have half siblings, and

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Speaker 3: so it was very like, you know, Pollyanna about this,

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Speaker 3: and that's how I kind of confronted her. And she

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Speaker 3: did a really good job of you know, Eve, you

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Speaker 3: were seven when your dad died. They told us not

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Speaker 3: to ever tell you and it wasn't going to be important.

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Speaker 3: And she brought up this green folder and it was

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Speaker 3: every print out from an email that she had ever

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Speaker 3: spoken to anyone on like Yahoo messenger boards, not to

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Speaker 3: like date myself. You know, it was before Facebook, and

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Speaker 3: you know, her medical records and you know, all of

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Speaker 3: the things to where she really was creating this breadcrumb

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Speaker 3: troell for me. And for me that was really meaningful

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Speaker 3: because I can actually see at that point that she

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Speaker 3: really was going to tell me.

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Speaker 4: She just didn't know how to tell me.

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Speaker 1: I imagine there were lots of different feelings. You say you

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Speaker 1: were quite Pollyanna about it, but I imagine you're losing Doug,

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Speaker 1: who you thought was your father, essentially your stepfather at

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Speaker 1: age seven. That must have been pretty traumatic for you

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Speaker 1: at that age. Did it feel a little bit like

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Speaker 1: a new phase of grief in terms of losing him

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Speaker 1: again at sixteen.

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Speaker 3: You don't know if at sixteen I could wrap my

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Speaker 3: head around that part. You know, there definitely was a

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Speaker 3: lot of grief, and there was a level of trauma

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Speaker 3: of not having you know, that father figure growing up

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Speaker 3: right eventually, But for me, I think it was just

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Speaker 3: trying to look at it in more of a positive sense. Now,

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Speaker 3: Remember at this time, I was not aware that the

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Speaker 3: donor could be like, no, I don't want to have

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Speaker 3: contact with you, because in my head was never a thing.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't until later where I started to realize that,

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Speaker 3: you know, the social constructs of this could be very different.

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Speaker 3: With that new information. I think that there was, you know,

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Speaker 3: a sense of hesitancy on my part and fear that

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Speaker 3: I may be rejected, and so it did kind of

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Speaker 3: like snowball into other types of feelings. But that morning,

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Speaker 3: in that moment, I was excited, but completely naive and

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Speaker 3: completely unaware of what it even meant.

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Speaker 1: Because I guess in a way, you lost Doug again,

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Speaker 1: but then also your father was alive again because you

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Speaker 1: hadn't even met him and he was out there somewhere right.

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Speaker 1: What a lot of emotions it is.

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Speaker 3: And it is I think it's one of those times too,

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Speaker 3: where you know I was having opposite feelings about something.

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Speaker 3: You know, I was excited, but to your point, there

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Speaker 3: was a level of grief. But then, you know, growing

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Speaker 3: up in my nuclear family, I was this blonde hair,

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Speaker 3: blue green eyed little girl. My little sister, who was

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Speaker 3: fourteen months younger than me, had all of skin complexion,

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Speaker 3: dark brown hair, dark brown eyes. I looked like no

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Speaker 3: one in my family. There was no familiarity, and so

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Speaker 3: I was constantly teased for being adopted. And so there

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Speaker 3: is something called the thought unknown, where I always knew

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Speaker 3: there was a secret. I just didn't know that I

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Speaker 3: was the secret until then. So then being able to

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Speaker 3: justify and everything makes sense to have an actual reason

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Speaker 3: for it instead of wondering what it was.

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Speaker 1: Was your sister the biological child of dog and your mom?

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Speaker 3: She was When my parents initially went to their fertility doctor,

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Speaker 3: my dad had Verico's fans around his testes, and so

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Speaker 3: the recommendation was to get a surgery to get us

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Speaker 3: taken care of. So he did that they still aren'

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Speaker 3: getting pregnant. So then the next step was to do

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Speaker 3: artificial insemination by an anonymous ferm donor. When I was

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Speaker 3: born my parents were pregnant four months later, and so

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Speaker 3: it could be that maybe there just wasn't enough time

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Speaker 3: after the surgery of the reversal of the surge. So

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Speaker 3: she is the biological child of my dad, Doug.

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Speaker 1: So how did things feel between you and her? Learning

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Speaker 1: that you were not actually sis, well, you were half sisters,

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Speaker 1: you had different fathers.

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Speaker 4: This one caught me by surprise.

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Speaker 3: I didn't think that it would impact her, and that

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Speaker 3: was just you know, me being shortsighted. But when we

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Speaker 3: sat my sister down and we told her, she started

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Speaker 3: crying and the only thing she said before she ran

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Speaker 3: out of the room was well, least you have a dad,

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Speaker 3: And that was it that hurt, because then it was like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: now I feel guilt, and wow, this is getting really complicated.

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Speaker 3: And you know, there wasn't a book for me to

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Speaker 3: go read. There wasn't a blog yet. There wasn't anyone

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Speaker 3: that I even knew that was donor conceived except for

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Speaker 3: the cows at my grandpa's house, and so I didn't

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Speaker 3: have a north star to be able to have some

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Speaker 3: sort of expectations of how this should go and how

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Speaker 3: this could go. Even when I called California Cryobank. At

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Speaker 3: this time, no one had made a connection with their donor,

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Speaker 3: so they didn't really have any good information for me

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Speaker 3: either on how to proceed with this, so.

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Speaker 4: It was very lonely.

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Speaker 3: And then it became a thing of what, I don't

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Speaker 3: want to talk about this in front of my sister

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Speaker 3: because it all make her sad, which only reinforced that loneliness.

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Speaker 1: In Australia, there are laws that came in a few

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Speaker 1: decades ago. I think that sperm donors could only be

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Speaker 1: anonymous up until the age of any donor children that

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Speaker 1: had been conceived were eighteen, and then those children had

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Speaker 1: a legal right to find them. What are the laws,

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Speaker 1: I imagine it probably differs state by state. But did

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Speaker 1: you know that you would be able to find your

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Speaker 1: the identity of your donor or? Was that tricky?

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Speaker 3: It was tricky because it is literally the wild wild

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Speaker 3: West here in good old us of A.

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Speaker 4: It's entirely left up to the donors in the clinics.

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Speaker 3: And so at the time that I was conceived, the

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Speaker 3: idea of an open donor versus a closed donor wasn't

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Speaker 3: even a topic of conversation. The recommendation in the eighties

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Speaker 3: was don't ask, don't tell, like they don't need to know.

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Speaker 3: It's not important. You're the parent and that's it. So

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Speaker 3: there wasn't a level of education to educate on the

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Speaker 3: donor becacive experience, or about how important genetic identity is.

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Speaker 3: And then even now I just feel like in the

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Speaker 3: last you know, ten years, the sperm banks here in

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Speaker 3: clinics are just now starting to realize, you know, maybe

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Speaker 3: anonymous donation isn't great because here anonymity breeds fraud when

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Speaker 3: you're able to exist under the cloak of anonymity. And

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Speaker 3: it wasn't until the you know, invention of commercial dnate

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Speaker 3: testing that is really blowing the lid off of those

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Speaker 3: So as far as the being the laws here, there's

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Speaker 3: just pure recommendations per the American Society of Reproductive Medicine.

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Speaker 1: Will you be angradate your mum that she hadn't told

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Speaker 1: you and that she had no intention of telling you?

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Speaker 3: Yes, and no, I was angry that I was lied

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Speaker 3: to you, But when she pulled out the green folder,

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Speaker 3: all of that kind of melted away because I could

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Speaker 3: see the amount of hours that she poured into this,

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Speaker 3: and I believed her when she said I didn't know

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Speaker 3: how to tell you. I didn't know when to tell you.

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Speaker 3: But I knew that if I did all of this

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Speaker 3: research and had all this information, that you would believe

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Speaker 3: me that I have been doing this for a very

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Speaker 3: long time. And so I think that that very much

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Speaker 3: helped bridge the gap between those emotions for me, because

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Speaker 3: I could very much empathize with not being able to

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Speaker 3: tell a seven year old whose father just passed away, well,

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Speaker 3: but that's not like your real dad, because let's go

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Speaker 3: talk about.

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Speaker 4: You know, how babies are made now. I mean, there's

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Speaker 4: no way, like I totally.

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Speaker 1: It's a lot of conversation, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Being seven, being like I like, just understanding developmentally, you know,

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Speaker 3: abstract thinking. And it didn't seem as appropriate at that

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Speaker 3: time to explain grief, death and artificial insamination.

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Speaker 1: And your mom must have felt protective of Doug and

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Speaker 1: his relationship with you, and I can say that I

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Speaker 1: can understand why she did it. How did you find

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Speaker 1: the identity of your I know, what did you learn

234
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Speaker 1: in that greenfielder?

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Speaker 3: So in the green folder I had my mom's medical records,

236
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Speaker 3: and in there it said the date that I was

237
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Speaker 3: conceived with Donor one O six from California Crowd Bank

238
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Speaker 3: and this was in the doctor's handwriting, so that was

239
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Speaker 3: confirmation of my conception.

240
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Speaker 4: And my mom had one sheet of paper and it.

241
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Speaker 3: Had California crow Bank all the donors listed, and it

242
00:12:32,862 --> 00:12:34,022
Speaker 3: was just one line.

243
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Speaker 4: Donor number, physical characteristics.

244
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Speaker 3: Level of education, and interest, like just very limited and

245
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Speaker 3: you could see like not this one, not this one,

246
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Speaker 3: maybe this one, and then she circled one in this one.

247
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Speaker 3: And then there were letters to like Wendy or emails

248
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Speaker 3: like Wendy Kramer Single Mothers by Choice Organization. I think

249
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Speaker 3: at one point there was like maybe a Canadian donor

250
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Speaker 3: Conception network, different professional organizations, and all of it was

251
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Speaker 3: like I'm just trying to get more information. We knew

252
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Speaker 3: his religion was of I Made Butcher, this the Bahai faith,

253
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Speaker 3: and so my mom had all of these like communications

254
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Speaker 3: with that religious organization.

255
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Speaker 4: So that was kind of what was the bulk of

256
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Speaker 4: the folder.

257
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Speaker 3: There were also personal emails of personal stories where she

258
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Speaker 3: was asking, how do I tell my daughter you're an

259
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Speaker 3: adult now?

260
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Speaker 4: What should I do? What should I not do? That

261
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Speaker 4: type of stuff.

262
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Speaker 1: Well, so she'd been trying to track down your donor

263
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Speaker 1: secretly all these years.

264
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Speaker 3: Kind of I think that in her very limited way,

265
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Speaker 3: she was trying to understand, you know, what was the

266
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Speaker 3: network in the landscape.

267
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Speaker 4: Donor Sibling registery was.

268
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Speaker 3: Not quite built yet, but that was the only pretty

269
00:13:42,742 --> 00:13:45,502
Speaker 3: much formal platform where you could put it in your

270
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Speaker 3: donor number and you would hope that the donor would

271
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Speaker 3: register as well as other half siblings.

272
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Speaker 1: So ultimately, when she was choosing her donor, she chose

273
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Speaker 1: number one hundred and six because he had certain qualities.

274
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Speaker 1: He had an interest in film and politics, which she

275
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Speaker 1: thought was similar to her and to her husband. And

276
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Speaker 1: you tracked him down, you said about making contact with

277
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Speaker 1: number one hundred and six, Who did you find?

278
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Speaker 3: I found Steve Shoal and I contacted the craw Bank.

279
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Speaker 3: Their roles at the time were we need the medical

280
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Speaker 3: records from the doctor to confirm, and they also had

281
00:14:21,222 --> 00:14:24,262
Speaker 3: their records that were purchasing records from the doctor, so

282
00:14:24,342 --> 00:14:28,342
Speaker 3: those things matched up, and they sent kind of like

283
00:14:28,382 --> 00:14:31,142
Speaker 3: a questionnaire that was like let's update your medical records,

284
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Speaker 3: not saying like, hey, you have a daughter. And so

285
00:14:34,942 --> 00:14:37,742
Speaker 3: that process took about a year because I think eventually

286
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Speaker 3: Steve Doner one of six, who I also call Dad,

287
00:14:42,822 --> 00:14:46,102
Speaker 3: he was like why do y'all need this? And they're like, oh,

288
00:14:46,342 --> 00:14:48,782
Speaker 3: because you have a daughter, and he was like, I'm

289
00:14:48,822 --> 00:14:51,302
Speaker 3: sorry what you know, he was surprised by it. I

290
00:14:51,302 --> 00:14:53,182
Speaker 3: think in his head he was like, I'm just doing

291
00:14:53,182 --> 00:14:53,902
Speaker 3: this for research.

292
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Speaker 1: Well had he forgotten that he donated spam? Like why

293
00:14:56,942 --> 00:14:59,182
Speaker 1: had he donated for money?

294
00:14:59,942 --> 00:15:03,582
Speaker 4: He was in college, easy way to make a bug, like, you.

295
00:15:03,502 --> 00:15:06,182
Speaker 1: Know, he'd sort of forgotten about it. He was probably stoned.

296
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Speaker 1: It was college, he was high, he.

297
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Speaker 3: Was exactly, he wasn't thinking about it. It's like Lodu's

298
00:15:12,262 --> 00:15:14,022
Speaker 3: best life, Like I'm doing it anyway.

299
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Speaker 1: It's like what, oh, yeah, I remember that vaguely, Yeah, exactly.

300
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Speaker 1: And where was he in his life when he found

301
00:15:22,022 --> 00:15:23,022
Speaker 1: out that you existed.

302
00:15:23,262 --> 00:15:27,182
Speaker 3: So he was a father of three children, and the

303
00:15:27,222 --> 00:15:30,062
Speaker 3: youngest one was pretty small, and the oldest one was

304
00:15:30,102 --> 00:15:32,702
Speaker 3: like maybe in middle school, So you know, he was

305
00:15:32,702 --> 00:15:35,502
Speaker 3: in a phase of life that you know, also was complicated.

306
00:15:35,542 --> 00:15:38,702
Speaker 3: He had every ability to be like, oh, he'll no,

307
00:15:39,142 --> 00:15:42,702
Speaker 3: this is not going to work, and he didn't. And

308
00:15:43,022 --> 00:15:44,902
Speaker 3: I had already written a letter and I had asked

309
00:15:44,982 --> 00:15:47,662
Speaker 3: the sperm bank when he made contact to Ford. That

310
00:15:47,742 --> 00:15:50,702
Speaker 3: letter I had in my mom's and her folder. I

311
00:15:50,742 --> 00:15:53,102
Speaker 3: had read so many stories of people who were just

312
00:15:53,182 --> 00:15:57,422
Speaker 3: outright rejected by their biological parent, and it ended up

313
00:15:57,462 --> 00:15:58,982
Speaker 3: becoming a fear of mine, and I was like, if

314
00:15:59,022 --> 00:16:00,822
Speaker 3: I only have one chance, like I want to be

315
00:16:00,822 --> 00:16:04,782
Speaker 3: able to convey who I am through a letter, and

316
00:16:04,862 --> 00:16:06,822
Speaker 3: if that's all he ever sees and reads.

317
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Speaker 4: Like, maybe that'll be enough.

318
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Speaker 3: And we ended up connecting and then it turned into email.

319
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Speaker 3: I would forward an email to the sperm bank, the

320
00:16:13,262 --> 00:16:15,422
Speaker 3: sperm bank would forward him, and that was it. And

321
00:16:15,422 --> 00:16:18,342
Speaker 3: then we cut them out and then ended up talking

322
00:16:18,382 --> 00:16:21,102
Speaker 3: on the phone just like forever. And then I was

323
00:16:21,142 --> 00:16:23,662
Speaker 3: living in Austin and college at this time, and he

324
00:16:23,702 --> 00:16:24,422
Speaker 3: flew down.

325
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Speaker 4: To meet me for the first time.

326
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Speaker 1: What was that like?

327
00:16:26,942 --> 00:16:30,182
Speaker 3: Oh, I was amazing. I mean I was. He came

328
00:16:30,222 --> 00:16:32,222
Speaker 3: to my apartment and I just I opened the door

329
00:16:32,262 --> 00:16:35,502
Speaker 3: and it was just like a huge hug and just

330
00:16:35,662 --> 00:16:38,302
Speaker 3: we stayed for hours talking in my living room and

331
00:16:38,342 --> 00:16:41,582
Speaker 3: then went to dinner and live music and it was

332
00:16:41,662 --> 00:16:45,782
Speaker 3: just catching up on at this point nineteen years. I

333
00:16:45,822 --> 00:16:48,782
Speaker 3: think because I didn't I didn't have any expectations. I

334
00:16:48,782 --> 00:16:51,102
Speaker 3: didn't know how it was supposed to go. And because

335
00:16:51,182 --> 00:16:53,502
Speaker 3: he is who he is, which is just this like

336
00:16:53,582 --> 00:16:56,502
Speaker 3: amazing open person and I am who I am.

337
00:16:56,582 --> 00:16:57,902
Speaker 4: Like it just worked.

338
00:16:58,182 --> 00:17:01,142
Speaker 3: And it was that weekend, the first weekend of meeting him,

339
00:17:01,662 --> 00:17:03,742
Speaker 3: we ran into a friend, one of my friends on

340
00:17:03,782 --> 00:17:07,062
Speaker 3: the street, and just for social clarity, I was like, oh,

341
00:17:07,102 --> 00:17:09,142
Speaker 3: this is my dad. And at the end of that

342
00:17:09,302 --> 00:17:11,502
Speaker 3: he was like, if you call me that, I'm okay

343
00:17:11,542 --> 00:17:13,422
Speaker 3: with that. And then from that moment on.

344
00:17:13,742 --> 00:17:16,542
Speaker 1: He was dad, And you had three new little siblings.

345
00:17:16,902 --> 00:17:19,022
Speaker 3: I did, but they didn't know yet. They didn't know

346
00:17:19,102 --> 00:17:20,182
Speaker 3: until much later.

347
00:17:20,462 --> 00:17:23,342
Speaker 1: Again, it's a tricky conversation with the little kids. So

348
00:17:23,622 --> 00:17:26,062
Speaker 1: dad was high in college and he jumped off into

349
00:17:26,062 --> 00:17:29,022
Speaker 1: a cop one day for twenty bucks.

350
00:17:29,222 --> 00:17:34,142
Speaker 3: Yeah, but for him, you know, it's also he had

351
00:17:34,142 --> 00:17:35,942
Speaker 3: to tell his wife and then I don't know if

352
00:17:35,942 --> 00:17:38,302
Speaker 3: it ever really came up, like, you know, while they

353
00:17:38,302 --> 00:17:41,342
Speaker 3: were dating, it never really came up. So he had

354
00:17:41,382 --> 00:17:44,822
Speaker 3: to tell her. And I totally get this. You know,

355
00:17:44,862 --> 00:17:47,502
Speaker 3: as a mother of three myself, I would be pretty

356
00:17:47,502 --> 00:17:52,662
Speaker 3: protective too, so I really understood her desire to not

357
00:17:52,702 --> 00:17:54,782
Speaker 3: want to tell the kids right away, and so it

358
00:17:54,902 --> 00:17:59,302
Speaker 3: took multiple years for them to disclose me to them.

359
00:17:59,902 --> 00:18:01,942
Speaker 3: I feel like, this is happens in donor conception a

360
00:18:01,942 --> 00:18:04,702
Speaker 3: lot with parents that disclose when when they're older and

361
00:18:04,782 --> 00:18:07,262
Speaker 3: everybody's nervous and like, oh my gosh, this is going

362
00:18:07,342 --> 00:18:09,022
Speaker 3: to go so bad. They're going to like freak out

363
00:18:09,022 --> 00:18:11,862
Speaker 3: and never talk to us again. And they told the kids,

364
00:18:12,302 --> 00:18:14,062
Speaker 3: and my sister was like, oh my god, I have

365
00:18:14,102 --> 00:18:17,542
Speaker 3: a sister. And then the two boys were like, that's cool.

366
00:18:17,582 --> 00:18:18,262
Speaker 4: What's for dinner?

367
00:18:18,942 --> 00:18:21,862
Speaker 3: And my dad's like, that's it and they're like, yeah,

368
00:18:21,902 --> 00:18:23,222
Speaker 3: I mean, do we get to like meet her or

369
00:18:23,222 --> 00:18:25,942
Speaker 3: something like that sounds cool? And they're like, oh my god.

370
00:18:26,622 --> 00:18:31,782
Speaker 1: It never ceases to delight me how disinterested kids are

371
00:18:31,822 --> 00:18:33,302
Speaker 1: in their parents' lives.

372
00:18:34,782 --> 00:18:38,902
Speaker 3: I know, right, it's all our social construction in projection.

373
00:18:38,902 --> 00:18:42,982
Speaker 1: What was your relationship like with your dad's wife, Like,

374
00:18:43,142 --> 00:18:45,062
Speaker 1: and I imagine you have this experience as well with

375
00:18:45,102 --> 00:18:48,022
Speaker 1: the work that you do meeting a lot of donor kids.

376
00:18:48,622 --> 00:18:52,342
Speaker 1: The relationship with the partner of the donum must be

377
00:18:52,542 --> 00:18:53,822
Speaker 1: often fraud, is it?

378
00:18:54,142 --> 00:18:56,902
Speaker 3: You know? I think in this instance, like I could

379
00:18:57,022 --> 00:19:00,422
Speaker 3: recognize the level of protectiveness and I was really leaning

380
00:19:00,422 --> 00:19:04,222
Speaker 3: on dad to kind of facilitate that relationship because I

381
00:19:04,222 --> 00:19:06,902
Speaker 3: didn't want obviously to push But I think that They

382
00:19:06,902 --> 00:19:09,422
Speaker 3: did a really good job of keeping it separate. I

383
00:19:09,462 --> 00:19:11,982
Speaker 3: didn't really get to have a lot of interaction with

384
00:19:12,022 --> 00:19:14,822
Speaker 3: her until my wedding. I think that really kind of

385
00:19:14,862 --> 00:19:17,902
Speaker 3: changed our relationship. We really didn't have a lot of interface.

386
00:19:17,982 --> 00:19:21,302
Speaker 3: You know, geographically we lived in different parts of the country.

387
00:19:22,102 --> 00:19:25,102
Speaker 3: It was always quite an effort to visit on either

388
00:19:25,102 --> 00:19:25,902
Speaker 3: one of our parts.

389
00:19:26,542 --> 00:19:30,422
Speaker 1: After this short break, Eve makes another unsettling discovery that

390
00:19:30,462 --> 00:19:39,382
Speaker 1: will change her life forever. Your relationship with your dad progressed.

391
00:19:39,382 --> 00:19:42,262
Speaker 1: As you say, he officiated at your wedding. He did,

392
00:19:43,022 --> 00:19:45,702
Speaker 1: so you stayed in touch over the next few years.

393
00:19:46,422 --> 00:19:49,862
Speaker 1: The next installment of this story, and the plot twist

394
00:19:49,902 --> 00:19:53,102
Speaker 1: comes when you go on to have children of your

395
00:19:53,142 --> 00:19:56,222
Speaker 1: own and your son becomes sick. What happened to him?

396
00:19:56,662 --> 00:19:59,862
Speaker 3: So my oldest when he was a baby, he was

397
00:19:59,942 --> 00:20:03,422
Speaker 3: vomiting a lot, and he wasn't eating real food, and

398
00:20:03,462 --> 00:20:05,222
Speaker 3: there were all of these things that all of our

399
00:20:05,262 --> 00:20:08,182
Speaker 3: doctors were like, you know, these allergies, and no one

400
00:20:08,182 --> 00:20:09,702
Speaker 3: could really figure out what it is.

401
00:20:10,502 --> 00:20:11,262
Speaker 4: At about three.

402
00:20:11,182 --> 00:20:13,182
Speaker 3: Years of all of that, I was like, we got

403
00:20:13,222 --> 00:20:16,102
Speaker 3: to do something different. They recommended looking in more into

404
00:20:16,142 --> 00:20:18,582
Speaker 3: like genetics, and so I was working with this functional

405
00:20:18,622 --> 00:20:21,822
Speaker 3: medicine doctor, and he was like, let's get some info

406
00:20:21,862 --> 00:20:24,822
Speaker 3: on your DNA. The easiest way to do that at

407
00:20:24,822 --> 00:20:27,102
Speaker 3: the time was the commercial DNA test twenty three and

408
00:20:27,142 --> 00:20:29,422
Speaker 3: mean plus health and he'd get what was called raw data.

409
00:20:30,102 --> 00:20:34,022
Speaker 3: So we did that and he called back and he said, hey, Eve,

410
00:20:34,302 --> 00:20:35,502
Speaker 3: it's Celiac disease.

411
00:20:36,222 --> 00:20:37,582
Speaker 4: And I was like what.

412
00:20:38,142 --> 00:20:41,342
Speaker 3: I had no idea what Celiac disease was. I had

413
00:20:41,342 --> 00:20:44,102
Speaker 3: no idea what an autoimmune disorder was. And he's like, yeah,

414
00:20:44,182 --> 00:20:46,662
Speaker 3: that's what it is, and it's coming from you. And

415
00:20:46,702 --> 00:20:49,142
Speaker 3: I was like, what are you talking about. He's like,

416
00:20:49,182 --> 00:20:51,822
Speaker 3: you need to go get better family history from you know,

417
00:20:51,942 --> 00:20:55,062
Speaker 3: your biological father and biological mother. And so I'm in

418
00:20:55,062 --> 00:20:58,462
Speaker 3: my family, like, who has these stomach issues in coeliac

419
00:20:58,502 --> 00:20:59,142
Speaker 3: and allergies.

420
00:20:59,302 --> 00:21:01,222
Speaker 1: No one because it's hereditary.

421
00:21:01,502 --> 00:21:03,862
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's term serious. So the bigger thing at

422
00:21:03,862 --> 00:21:07,182
Speaker 3: the time was like, Okay, now we know a diagnosis

423
00:21:07,222 --> 00:21:09,862
Speaker 3: is a prognosis, right, And so I was so focused

424
00:21:09,862 --> 00:21:13,102
Speaker 3: on just making my unhealthy. The second part of this

425
00:21:13,222 --> 00:21:16,262
Speaker 3: is that there's an ancestry component to the commercial DNA testing.

426
00:21:16,662 --> 00:21:18,742
Speaker 3: And I don't know if you're familiar with the platforms,

427
00:21:18,982 --> 00:21:22,702
Speaker 3: but a lot of my DNA connections were saying things

428
00:21:22,782 --> 00:21:26,342
Speaker 3: like close family to first cousins, and so I wasn't

429
00:21:26,662 --> 00:21:30,542
Speaker 3: really thinking half sibling because I guess I just assumed

430
00:21:30,542 --> 00:21:32,462
Speaker 3: it was a perfect science and would say half sibling.

431
00:21:32,782 --> 00:21:34,862
Speaker 1: So it was one of those like twenty three and

432
00:21:34,982 --> 00:21:38,382
Speaker 1: Me or ancestry dot Com that you do the test

433
00:21:38,542 --> 00:21:41,622
Speaker 1: and then they show you who all your relatives.

434
00:21:41,142 --> 00:21:44,462
Speaker 3: My bay, right, those who have also taken the test

435
00:21:45,022 --> 00:21:48,422
Speaker 3: and at about you. Yeah, that's exactly what it is.

436
00:21:48,582 --> 00:21:50,982
Speaker 3: And I knew from talking with California car Ibink that

437
00:21:51,342 --> 00:21:53,662
Speaker 3: dad was a popular spirm downer, but they had told

438
00:21:53,702 --> 00:21:55,542
Speaker 3: me that I was one of the older ones, you know.

439
00:21:55,542 --> 00:21:57,142
Speaker 3: I was like, sure, I'm sure this will be happening,

440
00:21:57,182 --> 00:21:58,742
Speaker 3: but it was still newer at this time. This was

441
00:21:58,782 --> 00:22:02,102
Speaker 3: like two thousand and eighteen, and so you know, you

442
00:22:02,142 --> 00:22:04,142
Speaker 3: just don't know what you don't know. So we go

443
00:22:04,222 --> 00:22:07,342
Speaker 3: on vacation and my mom is actually with me and

444
00:22:07,422 --> 00:22:10,062
Speaker 3: she's like, hey, Eve, I actually think those are your

445
00:22:10,102 --> 00:22:13,022
Speaker 3: half siblings. Like, you know, look at like the degree

446
00:22:13,022 --> 00:22:15,542
Speaker 3: in which you're related, and it could be like a

447
00:22:15,622 --> 00:22:19,382
Speaker 3: different each number is for something different, and so then

448
00:22:19,422 --> 00:22:21,782
Speaker 3: I was like, oh my gosh. So then I'm like,

449
00:22:22,022 --> 00:22:24,902
Speaker 3: you know, on social media, and I'm sending the messages

450
00:22:24,942 --> 00:22:28,862
Speaker 3: through the platform, and I connected with one and bless

451
00:22:28,942 --> 00:22:33,502
Speaker 3: his sweet little heart. He is from my area where

452
00:22:33,502 --> 00:22:35,902
Speaker 3: I grew up, and he was like, no, I know

453
00:22:36,022 --> 00:22:39,182
Speaker 3: who you know our dad is and I was like, no, no, no,

454
00:22:39,222 --> 00:22:42,502
Speaker 3: that's our mom's doctor that did the insemination, Steve Donner

455
00:22:42,582 --> 00:22:45,702
Speaker 3: w I six from Oregon. He's our biological father. But

456
00:22:46,102 --> 00:22:48,822
Speaker 3: I don't want to project my story onto you guys,

457
00:22:48,862 --> 00:22:50,742
Speaker 3: So I'm going to have him do that DNA test

458
00:22:50,862 --> 00:22:52,422
Speaker 3: and then you guys can figure out if y'all want

459
00:22:52,422 --> 00:22:53,142
Speaker 3: a relationship.

460
00:22:53,502 --> 00:22:54,902
Speaker 4: And honestly, I just thought he.

461
00:22:54,982 --> 00:22:58,182
Speaker 3: Was love you, Andrew, but a redneck that just wasn't

462
00:22:58,302 --> 00:23:01,382
Speaker 3: very smart. And so that was that one. And then

463
00:23:01,382 --> 00:23:04,422
Speaker 3: I kept going down, you know, the list of connecting

464
00:23:04,422 --> 00:23:07,222
Speaker 3: other siblings, and then I came up with one who

465
00:23:07,542 --> 00:23:09,782
Speaker 3: wasn't on social media, but I found him on LinkedIn

466
00:23:10,502 --> 00:23:13,822
Speaker 3: and it was late at night. I messaged him and

467
00:23:13,982 --> 00:23:16,942
Speaker 3: was like, hey, are you the Adam on twenty three

468
00:23:16,822 --> 00:23:18,702
Speaker 3: and me? And he's like yes. I was like, well,

469
00:23:18,742 --> 00:23:20,022
Speaker 3: I need to talk to you and he's like, well,

470
00:23:20,062 --> 00:23:22,102
Speaker 3: I think it'd be kind of hard to explain to

471
00:23:22,182 --> 00:23:23,702
Speaker 3: my wife, why I need to get out of bed

472
00:23:23,782 --> 00:23:24,662
Speaker 3: to call another woman.

473
00:23:24,942 --> 00:23:27,582
Speaker 4: I was like, oh, to totally get that. I just think.

474
00:23:27,582 --> 00:23:30,982
Speaker 3: I'm like, you're half sibling, so just call me tomorrow

475
00:23:31,382 --> 00:23:34,422
Speaker 3: and my phone immediately rain and he's like, okay, you

476
00:23:34,462 --> 00:23:39,742
Speaker 3: have my attention. Yeah, impulsivity was not my future of

477
00:23:39,742 --> 00:23:42,582
Speaker 3: that night, but yeah, he is the one that I

478
00:23:42,662 --> 00:23:44,702
Speaker 3: talked to you, and I thought that you know so

479
00:23:44,862 --> 00:23:47,222
Speaker 3: much of when you're donor conceived or your non parent

480
00:23:47,262 --> 00:23:51,542
Speaker 3: expected result, there's always someone that is delivering that news

481
00:23:51,782 --> 00:23:54,542
Speaker 3: right or putting the pieces together when it comes out

482
00:23:54,542 --> 00:23:58,582
Speaker 3: of these platforms. I was like, we're donor conceived and

483
00:23:58,582 --> 00:23:59,662
Speaker 3: he's like, no, there's no way.

484
00:23:59,702 --> 00:24:02,182
Speaker 4: I look like my dad. That's our white story. I

485
00:24:02,222 --> 00:24:04,422
Speaker 4: have a brother. Okay, so we got this whole thing,

486
00:24:04,462 --> 00:24:05,102
Speaker 4: and I'm like, all right.

487
00:24:05,142 --> 00:24:06,502
Speaker 1: And you just thought he was in denial.

488
00:24:06,662 --> 00:24:07,582
Speaker 4: I thought he was in denial.

489
00:24:07,622 --> 00:24:09,342
Speaker 3: I mean, and most suppose people are right like this

490
00:24:09,542 --> 00:24:12,302
Speaker 3: stream on the internet and like this is weird. So

491
00:24:12,422 --> 00:24:14,902
Speaker 3: I was like, okay, so if you are my first cousin,

492
00:24:15,182 --> 00:24:18,262
Speaker 3: then that means that your uncle is my biological father.

493
00:24:18,862 --> 00:24:23,062
Speaker 3: Is your uncle Steve Shoul And he said, no, my

494
00:24:23,182 --> 00:24:29,062
Speaker 3: uncle is Kim mcmaury's and my world stopped because Kim

495
00:24:29,142 --> 00:24:33,382
Speaker 3: mcmaury's is doctor Kim mcmoury's and was my mom's fertility doctor.

496
00:24:34,222 --> 00:24:37,742
Speaker 4: And at that time I knew it was like everything

497
00:24:37,782 --> 00:24:38,502
Speaker 4: just kind of made.

498
00:24:38,422 --> 00:24:40,662
Speaker 3: Sense, even like the little red flags that I've been

499
00:24:40,742 --> 00:24:44,382
Speaker 3: seeing before, like the timeline's not matching up. And then

500
00:24:44,462 --> 00:24:48,022
Speaker 3: it was wow, like I know that people lie and

501
00:24:48,142 --> 00:24:52,142
Speaker 3: DNA doesn't lie, and it was just starting all over again,

502
00:24:52,462 --> 00:24:53,662
Speaker 3: and it was the truth.

503
00:24:54,182 --> 00:24:57,222
Speaker 1: After you hung up the phone, what was going through

504
00:24:57,262 --> 00:24:57,702
Speaker 1: your head?

505
00:24:58,702 --> 00:25:00,942
Speaker 3: A little bit like when I was sixteen years old,

506
00:25:00,942 --> 00:25:05,222
Speaker 3: of that moment of I am onto something very big

507
00:25:05,782 --> 00:25:09,782
Speaker 3: that is going to impact more than just myself. I

508
00:25:09,822 --> 00:25:14,662
Speaker 3: remember literally downing my glass of wine and deciding all

509
00:25:14,702 --> 00:25:17,462
Speaker 3: over again because my mom was upstairs watching a movie

510
00:25:17,502 --> 00:25:20,822
Speaker 3: with my in laws, and my choice was to pretend

511
00:25:20,862 --> 00:25:23,702
Speaker 3: like I never discovered this and continue to live a

512
00:25:23,822 --> 00:25:25,942
Speaker 3: fairy tale life with my dad and my mom and

513
00:25:26,022 --> 00:25:27,062
Speaker 3: just pretend like it never.

514
00:25:26,982 --> 00:25:29,542
Speaker 1: Happened, your second dad, stave.

515
00:25:29,502 --> 00:25:33,902
Speaker 3: Yep, my second dad, or to go right upstairs, which

516
00:25:33,942 --> 00:25:36,742
Speaker 3: is what I did, like I was sixteen years old,

517
00:25:36,822 --> 00:25:40,742
Speaker 3: and tell her again that my real biological father was

518
00:25:40,782 --> 00:25:41,742
Speaker 3: her fertility doctor.

519
00:25:42,102 --> 00:25:45,502
Speaker 1: In that moment, did you think, oh, maybe there was

520
00:25:45,542 --> 00:25:49,542
Speaker 1: a mistake or straight away you knew that it had

521
00:25:49,582 --> 00:25:51,142
Speaker 1: been a deliberate deceit.

522
00:25:51,782 --> 00:25:52,702
Speaker 4: Straight Away I knew.

523
00:25:53,022 --> 00:25:56,542
Speaker 3: How did you know one of the half siblings I

524
00:25:56,582 --> 00:25:59,782
Speaker 3: connected with was thirteen years older and that was kind

525
00:25:59,822 --> 00:26:01,862
Speaker 3: of my big indicator. The one that I had just

526
00:26:01,902 --> 00:26:05,182
Speaker 3: spoken to was older. And so it's kind of like

527
00:26:05,262 --> 00:26:09,582
Speaker 3: piecing these things together of you know that timeline didn't work.

528
00:26:10,422 --> 00:26:13,462
Speaker 3: And again, I mean people lie, DNA doesn't lie. It's

529
00:26:13,462 --> 00:26:16,022
Speaker 3: hard to have a level of cognitive dissonance whenever the

530
00:26:16,102 --> 00:26:17,782
Speaker 3: DNA is staring straight at you.

531
00:26:17,782 --> 00:26:20,702
Speaker 1: Your mom must have fain devastated. How did Dave react

532
00:26:21,102 --> 00:26:22,742
Speaker 1: because you had to break then you see him?

533
00:26:23,462 --> 00:26:27,382
Speaker 3: So actually I didn't tell him until weeks later because

534
00:26:27,782 --> 00:26:30,702
Speaker 3: I think there was a small part of me that

535
00:26:30,822 --> 00:26:33,902
Speaker 3: was really hoping that it wasn't true. There was also

536
00:26:34,182 --> 00:26:36,822
Speaker 3: that I knew there was not going to be the

537
00:26:36,862 --> 00:26:39,222
Speaker 3: fairy tale, There was not going to be the relationship

538
00:26:39,422 --> 00:26:43,062
Speaker 3: because I was the one that was protecting the secret,

539
00:26:43,302 --> 00:26:46,822
Speaker 3: and without truth and transparency, there was never going to

540
00:26:46,862 --> 00:26:49,742
Speaker 3: be an authentic relationship with my real biological father if

541
00:26:49,782 --> 00:26:53,542
Speaker 3: I was keeping a secret. I waited until I knew

542
00:26:53,542 --> 00:26:56,222
Speaker 3: that that DNA test the result to Ron was there

543
00:26:56,462 --> 00:26:58,262
Speaker 3: the commercial DNA test. And then I called him and

544
00:26:58,262 --> 00:27:00,142
Speaker 3: I told him, and it was the hardest part of

545
00:27:00,182 --> 00:27:03,182
Speaker 3: this entire process. But it was like a daddy wound

546
00:27:03,222 --> 00:27:05,342
Speaker 3: just being like ripped open again. I was so afraid

547
00:27:05,382 --> 00:27:09,022
Speaker 3: of rejection. And even though I knew that nothing would

548
00:27:09,062 --> 00:27:11,542
Speaker 3: undo the thirteen years of his build in this relationship,

549
00:27:11,582 --> 00:27:14,662
Speaker 3: I was still so worried because so much, you know,

550
00:27:14,782 --> 00:27:17,382
Speaker 3: I initiated this relationship and it was wrong. There was

551
00:27:17,422 --> 00:27:19,982
Speaker 3: so much guilt. And I told him and we.

552
00:27:19,982 --> 00:27:22,822
Speaker 4: Just cried and cried and cried.

553
00:27:22,862 --> 00:27:24,462
Speaker 3: And at the very end of it, he said, you know,

554
00:27:24,502 --> 00:27:26,422
Speaker 3: it changes some things, but it doesn't change.

555
00:27:26,222 --> 00:27:27,902
Speaker 4: The fact that you're my daughter. And it's all I

556
00:27:27,942 --> 00:27:29,742
Speaker 4: needed to do, you know.

557
00:27:29,822 --> 00:27:31,542
Speaker 3: That was he was like, and I support you know,

558
00:27:31,542 --> 00:27:33,582
Speaker 3: whatever you do, but I think that you know, for me,

559
00:27:34,102 --> 00:27:37,422
Speaker 3: I was so shocked by it. But was more shocking

560
00:27:37,662 --> 00:27:40,462
Speaker 3: is that you know, in talking to my attorneys that

561
00:27:40,542 --> 00:27:43,662
Speaker 3: it wasn't a crime, and so how is it that

562
00:27:43,982 --> 00:27:47,142
Speaker 3: we know that this is morally wrong, but this is

563
00:27:47,182 --> 00:27:51,142
Speaker 3: not legally wrong. And so when morality doesn't equal legality,

564
00:27:51,262 --> 00:27:52,262
Speaker 3: what do you do with it?

565
00:27:52,582 --> 00:27:57,902
Speaker 1: So hold on one second. It wasn't legally wrong for

566
00:27:58,062 --> 00:28:03,382
Speaker 1: your mother's fertility doctor to go into another room mastivating

567
00:28:03,422 --> 00:28:08,142
Speaker 1: a cop, come back and put the DNA of someone

568
00:28:08,222 --> 00:28:12,222
Speaker 1: she hasn't consented to being in some with into your

569
00:28:12,262 --> 00:28:16,222
Speaker 1: mother's body without ever telling her or getting her consent.

570
00:28:16,702 --> 00:28:19,422
Speaker 3: Correct, there was no civil cause of action and there

571
00:28:19,502 --> 00:28:22,942
Speaker 3: was no criminal cause of action for this. Remember earlier

572
00:28:23,062 --> 00:28:27,382
Speaker 3: when I talked about anonymity breeds fraud. He can hide

573
00:28:27,422 --> 00:28:31,942
Speaker 3: behind an anonymous sperm donor, even though the informed consent

574
00:28:32,262 --> 00:28:35,382
Speaker 3: was for donor one oh six from California Crybank. And

575
00:28:35,422 --> 00:28:38,142
Speaker 3: the answer is because, quite frankly, we do not have

576
00:28:38,262 --> 00:28:39,182
Speaker 3: laws against it.

577
00:28:39,502 --> 00:28:42,822
Speaker 1: So did you confront this doctor? What did you do? It?

578
00:28:42,902 --> 00:28:43,142
Speaker 4: Did?

579
00:28:44,102 --> 00:28:44,182
Speaker 1: So?

580
00:28:45,222 --> 00:28:47,702
Speaker 3: I've also known this man of pretty much my entire life.

581
00:28:48,022 --> 00:28:51,542
Speaker 3: You know, he has a pillar in our community. People

582
00:28:51,662 --> 00:28:53,942
Speaker 3: love him. You know, he's one of the very few

583
00:28:53,982 --> 00:28:56,862
Speaker 3: doctors in East Texas there was an ov you know,

584
00:28:56,902 --> 00:29:01,702
Speaker 3: everybody loves him. And I did everything by writing told

585
00:29:01,822 --> 00:29:04,462
Speaker 3: him that I am his through commercial study testing, I

586
00:29:04,502 --> 00:29:06,702
Speaker 3: am his daughter, and he wrote me back.

587
00:29:07,582 --> 00:29:08,902
Speaker 4: Just the smoke and mirror show.

588
00:29:09,062 --> 00:29:11,182
Speaker 3: You know, it appears that you would have inherited some

589
00:29:11,222 --> 00:29:13,862
Speaker 3: of my genetics, and I was like, yeah, dumb ass

590
00:29:14,062 --> 00:29:16,702
Speaker 3: fifty percent of them, like kind of know that works.

591
00:29:17,022 --> 00:29:18,742
Speaker 3: And then he went in this whole thing of like, oh,

592
00:29:18,742 --> 00:29:21,142
Speaker 3: I used a mylex cup in this syringe, and in

593
00:29:21,262 --> 00:29:24,822
Speaker 3: my donor program, you know, there were five successful pregnancies,

594
00:29:25,182 --> 00:29:29,222
Speaker 3: three ended with you know, spontaneous miscarriage, and two offspring.

595
00:29:29,662 --> 00:29:32,222
Speaker 3: And I was like, well, that's funny because I'm looking

596
00:29:32,262 --> 00:29:34,382
Speaker 3: at commercial DNA testing and I can see that I

597
00:29:34,382 --> 00:29:35,542
Speaker 3: have five half siblings.

598
00:29:35,542 --> 00:29:37,422
Speaker 4: So immediately I knew he was lying.

599
00:29:37,662 --> 00:29:40,182
Speaker 3: Yeah, And then I was like, Okay, well you want

600
00:29:40,182 --> 00:29:43,942
Speaker 3: to play, let's go. So it just became more correspondence

601
00:29:43,982 --> 00:29:45,902
Speaker 3: where he would say something and then I would poke

602
00:29:45,942 --> 00:29:46,382
Speaker 3: a hole in it.

603
00:29:46,582 --> 00:29:47,982
Speaker 1: He fucked with the wrong woman.

604
00:29:48,462 --> 00:29:51,022
Speaker 3: He fucked with the wrong woman. He did, and he

605
00:29:51,182 --> 00:29:52,942
Speaker 3: knows that now and it was a hard lesson for

606
00:29:53,022 --> 00:29:54,822
Speaker 3: him to learn, but by god, did he learn it.

607
00:29:55,902 --> 00:29:57,542
Speaker 3: And I really think that he thought I would just

608
00:29:57,582 --> 00:30:00,902
Speaker 3: buy as bullshit, and like maybe I wasn't smart enough,

609
00:30:01,062 --> 00:30:02,622
Speaker 3: or you know, I think he so used to being

610
00:30:02,662 --> 00:30:06,422
Speaker 3: the authority and where he lives that you know, my god,

611
00:30:06,462 --> 00:30:07,742
Speaker 3: no woman would challenge him.

612
00:30:08,142 --> 00:30:10,262
Speaker 4: Oh there was one line that was so cringe, you know, it.

613
00:30:10,422 --> 00:30:13,822
Speaker 3: It was a pleasure to be able to deliver a

614
00:30:14,022 --> 00:30:17,102
Speaker 3: baby girl to my mother and my father, and you

615
00:30:17,142 --> 00:30:18,262
Speaker 3: know I should just be grateful.

616
00:30:18,342 --> 00:30:20,862
Speaker 4: Well then I'm like, okay, well I want medical.

617
00:30:20,542 --> 00:30:23,182
Speaker 3: Information because now, like, not only did you fuck with me,

618
00:30:23,342 --> 00:30:25,782
Speaker 3: but it's now it's my kid. Now Mama Bear is mad.

619
00:30:26,302 --> 00:30:29,462
Speaker 3: There's medical information. I would have made different medical decisions

620
00:30:29,502 --> 00:30:32,302
Speaker 3: on my child. He didn't need all of those exploratory

621
00:30:32,342 --> 00:30:34,622
Speaker 3: surgeries had we have known what it was in the

622
00:30:34,622 --> 00:30:38,182
Speaker 3: first place. So then he sends me this response of like,

623
00:30:38,742 --> 00:30:41,222
Speaker 3: my I call him social kids. He says his kids,

624
00:30:41,382 --> 00:30:44,022
Speaker 3: his known kids. You know, they're all iron men and

625
00:30:44,062 --> 00:30:44,902
Speaker 3: they're doctors.

626
00:30:44,942 --> 00:30:45,982
Speaker 4: And it was just a brag list.

627
00:30:46,062 --> 00:30:47,542
Speaker 3: And I was like, well, you forgot the fact that

628
00:30:47,582 --> 00:30:50,422
Speaker 3: you had cancer like melanoma, or that my brother had

629
00:30:50,422 --> 00:30:53,102
Speaker 3: a brain tumor, like it was nothing a substance. So

630
00:30:53,182 --> 00:30:55,862
Speaker 3: we just kind of kept going, and I'm pissed, right,

631
00:30:56,342 --> 00:30:58,022
Speaker 3: but there was still a part of me like I

632
00:30:58,182 --> 00:31:02,222
Speaker 3: still wanted to know him. I still Pollyanna was like,

633
00:31:02,262 --> 00:31:04,862
Speaker 3: you know what, we could totally work.

634
00:31:04,662 --> 00:31:07,622
Speaker 4: Through this, and your dad the doctor, the doctor.

635
00:31:07,662 --> 00:31:09,142
Speaker 3: I was like, we could totally work through this, and

636
00:31:09,222 --> 00:31:10,862
Speaker 3: the only way to do that was to level the

637
00:31:10,862 --> 00:31:13,822
Speaker 3: playing field. So I told him, I said, I am

638
00:31:13,862 --> 00:31:17,102
Speaker 3: going to be going to the Texas legislature and I'm

639
00:31:17,102 --> 00:31:18,982
Speaker 3: going to be lobbying to make this a crime because

640
00:31:18,982 --> 00:31:21,062
Speaker 3: if this is the thinking at the time, it was

641
00:31:21,222 --> 00:31:25,262
Speaker 3: wrong and it needs to be criminalized. So let's make

642
00:31:25,302 --> 00:31:28,302
Speaker 3: this bigger than ourselves. What a beautiful way for us

643
00:31:28,302 --> 00:31:30,182
Speaker 3: to do this together and to be able to share

644
00:31:30,182 --> 00:31:31,822
Speaker 3: that message. And we could and we could do it

645
00:31:31,822 --> 00:31:34,622
Speaker 3: like if you really cared. And then, of course I

646
00:31:34,702 --> 00:31:35,502
Speaker 3: never heard from them.

647
00:31:35,982 --> 00:31:37,942
Speaker 1: So did he try to claim that your mom knew

648
00:31:37,982 --> 00:31:40,582
Speaker 1: about it and that it was his sperm? Or he

649
00:31:40,702 --> 00:31:45,822
Speaker 1: admitted that, yeah, I just used mine, Because why did

650
00:31:45,862 --> 00:31:46,822
Speaker 1: he ever tell you why?

651
00:31:47,622 --> 00:31:50,622
Speaker 3: So he said that he was mixing it. And he

652
00:31:50,902 --> 00:31:54,422
Speaker 3: said that he was a sperm donor when he was

653
00:31:54,462 --> 00:31:57,942
Speaker 3: in college, so that would have been about twelve thirteen

654
00:31:58,022 --> 00:32:01,262
Speaker 3: years before I was conceived. And so he went to

655
00:32:01,502 --> 00:32:05,542
Speaker 3: his former medical school and he got his old dusty

656
00:32:05,662 --> 00:32:09,022
Speaker 3: s sperm viials, drove them to his clinic in East Texas,

657
00:32:09,302 --> 00:32:11,742
Speaker 3: and that is what he used because donor one of

658
00:32:11,902 --> 00:32:14,582
Speaker 3: six wasn't performing like it should have been.

659
00:32:14,982 --> 00:32:17,982
Speaker 1: How many children did he father this way? Or you

660
00:32:18,062 --> 00:32:18,462
Speaker 1: don't know.

661
00:32:18,742 --> 00:32:21,702
Speaker 3: The truth is, we don't know. I currently have fourteen

662
00:32:21,742 --> 00:32:24,622
Speaker 3: half siblings. Three of those are his social children.

663
00:32:25,062 --> 00:32:28,342
Speaker 1: When you say social children, you mean children that he

664
00:32:28,822 --> 00:32:31,102
Speaker 1: consaved with his partner.

665
00:32:31,062 --> 00:32:33,742
Speaker 4: Correct, that are known socially as.

666
00:32:33,622 --> 00:32:36,102
Speaker 1: His And how did the rest feel about it? How

667
00:32:36,102 --> 00:32:37,262
Speaker 1: did they all find out.

668
00:32:37,342 --> 00:32:40,942
Speaker 3: Same way commercial DNA testing. Several of them saw me

669
00:32:41,022 --> 00:32:43,622
Speaker 3: on TV and saw his picture and saw me and

670
00:32:44,142 --> 00:32:46,582
Speaker 3: was like, whoa, I kind of look like that. The

671
00:32:46,702 --> 00:32:50,862
Speaker 3: mcmory's features are pretty defining. I am like kind of

672
00:32:50,942 --> 00:32:53,982
Speaker 3: outlier in the sense that I'm not over six feet tall,

673
00:32:54,702 --> 00:32:57,942
Speaker 3: but all of my siblings are between like six feet

674
00:32:57,982 --> 00:33:00,542
Speaker 3: and like six six even the women are like six

675
00:33:00,622 --> 00:33:03,102
Speaker 3: to six two, very tall. I'm just like the little,

676
00:33:03,222 --> 00:33:06,142
Speaker 3: like five seven short chihuahua. I'm just really loud.

677
00:33:06,382 --> 00:33:08,182
Speaker 1: You were the rumpt.

678
00:33:09,862 --> 00:33:12,542
Speaker 3: The only literally like you have those like this and

679
00:33:12,622 --> 00:33:13,542
Speaker 3: pictures and there's.

680
00:33:13,822 --> 00:33:16,302
Speaker 1: Seven is not that small. But if everyone else is

681
00:33:16,342 --> 00:33:20,342
Speaker 1: six foot two, then it's all in a.

682
00:33:20,302 --> 00:33:25,342
Speaker 3: Few we actually found So I connected with some former

683
00:33:25,502 --> 00:33:27,742
Speaker 3: people that worked with him during the time, and I

684
00:33:27,782 --> 00:33:31,622
Speaker 3: was able to get a pretty accurate historical context of

685
00:33:31,662 --> 00:33:34,222
Speaker 3: just how large his program was. So he was seeing

686
00:33:34,222 --> 00:33:37,862
Speaker 3: between fifty to sixty women a day, and they couldn't

687
00:33:37,862 --> 00:33:42,302
Speaker 3: determine the percentage of those that were infertility patients, but

688
00:33:42,342 --> 00:33:45,022
Speaker 3: they said that it was a lot. One of them

689
00:33:45,582 --> 00:33:49,062
Speaker 3: found out what he was doing and quit, So yeah,

690
00:33:49,102 --> 00:33:52,102
Speaker 3: they kind of pieced together a lot of it. I

691
00:33:52,142 --> 00:33:55,622
Speaker 3: went through yearbooks in the area and like I said,

692
00:33:55,622 --> 00:33:58,582
Speaker 3: defining features, and then people would send me names like hey,

693
00:33:58,662 --> 00:34:00,782
Speaker 3: this person kind of looks like you. And that's how

694
00:34:00,782 --> 00:34:02,782
Speaker 3: we found several of them, is me reaching out to

695
00:34:02,862 --> 00:34:05,462
Speaker 3: them saying, this is kind of weird, but I think

696
00:34:05,622 --> 00:34:07,822
Speaker 3: maybe my sibling, can I send you a DNA test?

697
00:34:07,982 --> 00:34:09,902
Speaker 3: And so that's what I ultimately did.

698
00:34:10,502 --> 00:34:12,822
Speaker 1: When you were in public, you did an interview with

699
00:34:12,902 --> 00:34:17,582
Speaker 1: the Karnifs program twenty twenty. What was the reaction in

700
00:34:17,622 --> 00:34:20,662
Speaker 1: your community where he was this pillar of the community.

701
00:34:21,062 --> 00:34:24,902
Speaker 1: He's a religious man, I believe very religious. Did he

702
00:34:24,982 --> 00:34:27,662
Speaker 1: stop practicing? Was he shunned? What happened?

703
00:34:28,262 --> 00:34:34,462
Speaker 3: His preacher called me that was the first thing that happened. Wow, No,

704
00:34:34,662 --> 00:34:38,182
Speaker 3: he wasn't. There was a big service where you know,

705
00:34:38,222 --> 00:34:40,862
Speaker 3: he was just doing the Lord's work and I should

706
00:34:40,902 --> 00:34:43,542
Speaker 3: just be grateful because I have his wonderful genetics and

707
00:34:43,582 --> 00:34:45,902
Speaker 3: I have a duty to honor my mother and my father,

708
00:34:46,702 --> 00:34:50,262
Speaker 3: except that only fits in that context because also you said,

709
00:34:50,262 --> 00:34:54,222
Speaker 3: you're not my father, and I was the devil. I

710
00:34:54,502 --> 00:34:56,942
Speaker 3: was the one that was spitting in the eye of

711
00:34:56,942 --> 00:35:01,622
Speaker 3: the proverbial monster, and his tribe circled around him to

712
00:35:01,702 --> 00:35:04,742
Speaker 3: protect him, and he was just doing the lord's work,

713
00:35:05,022 --> 00:35:08,062
Speaker 3: and that was it. And it was honestly the most

714
00:35:08,102 --> 00:35:12,182
Speaker 3: disappointing thing. Do you see my commune come out and

715
00:35:12,582 --> 00:35:15,422
Speaker 3: support this man in that capacity when not only do

716
00:35:15,542 --> 00:35:19,462
Speaker 3: you have evidence of it, I am the evidence, but

717
00:35:19,582 --> 00:35:22,262
Speaker 3: for people to actually tell me that I should just

718
00:35:22,382 --> 00:35:25,902
Speaker 3: be grateful to be alive, and me to continuously say

719
00:35:25,902 --> 00:35:28,542
Speaker 3: over and over again, I am not talking about being

720
00:35:28,542 --> 00:35:31,382
Speaker 3: grateful to be alive. I am talking about the deception

721
00:35:31,542 --> 00:35:35,062
Speaker 3: around my conception. And that's what happens so much is

722
00:35:35,062 --> 00:35:37,822
Speaker 3: people just immediately go to the end result, you know,

723
00:35:37,862 --> 00:35:40,422
Speaker 3: they want that silver lining and that projection of their

724
00:35:40,462 --> 00:35:43,622
Speaker 3: uncomfortableness back on to me. Most of the community, I

725
00:35:43,622 --> 00:35:48,022
Speaker 3: would say ninety percent was behind him. He did not retire.

726
00:35:48,542 --> 00:35:52,102
Speaker 3: He continued to practice very successfully. With my half brother.

727
00:35:53,022 --> 00:35:57,422
Speaker 3: I ended up filing a medical board complaint and it

728
00:35:57,462 --> 00:36:01,222
Speaker 3: took the Texas Medical Board years to even hear this complaint,

729
00:36:01,742 --> 00:36:04,982
Speaker 3: and they ultimately, and of course abrad Blane's COVID for everything,

730
00:36:05,262 --> 00:36:08,102
Speaker 3: they ultimately ended up voting to take his license. He

731
00:36:08,142 --> 00:36:11,382
Speaker 3: immediately followed a restraining order again to the Medical Board

732
00:36:11,502 --> 00:36:14,622
Speaker 3: and a lawsuit, and the lawsuit stated they did not

733
00:36:14,742 --> 00:36:17,782
Speaker 3: have jurisdiction to revoke his license because of a statute

734
00:36:17,822 --> 00:36:21,822
Speaker 3: of limitation under standard level of care. The Medical Board

735
00:36:21,822 --> 00:36:24,222
Speaker 3: and the Attorney General were saying that this is not

736
00:36:24,342 --> 00:36:27,022
Speaker 3: standard level of care. This is unethical conduct and behavior

737
00:36:27,062 --> 00:36:29,902
Speaker 3: which does not carry a seven year statute of limitations,

738
00:36:30,342 --> 00:36:33,822
Speaker 3: and so the judge is not going to hear details

739
00:36:33,822 --> 00:36:36,542
Speaker 3: of the case. All they are deciding is whether the

740
00:36:36,542 --> 00:36:40,102
Speaker 3: Medical Board has jurisdiction to do this or not. It

741
00:36:40,142 --> 00:36:44,182
Speaker 3: is still in the court system. He has lost twice,

742
00:36:44,382 --> 00:36:46,302
Speaker 3: but he keeps appealing it. So it will go up

743
00:36:46,302 --> 00:36:49,342
Speaker 3: to the Supreme Court of Texas. They will send it

744
00:36:49,382 --> 00:36:52,422
Speaker 3: back down to the Thirteenth Court of Appeal, and that

745
00:36:52,582 --> 00:36:55,342
Speaker 3: judge has already told him from day one that her

746
00:36:55,462 --> 00:36:58,262
Speaker 3: ruling still stands and it is a very expensive and

747
00:36:58,342 --> 00:37:01,702
Speaker 3: long journey for him to get his license revoked. So

748
00:37:01,822 --> 00:37:06,382
Speaker 3: at this point, his only accountability as attorney fees.

749
00:37:06,662 --> 00:37:08,302
Speaker 1: So he's still practicing.

750
00:37:08,862 --> 00:37:13,702
Speaker 3: He has since retired within the last year, but it's

751
00:37:13,742 --> 00:37:16,822
Speaker 3: a forced early retirement for a seventy something year old man.

752
00:37:17,182 --> 00:37:18,422
Speaker 4: His license is intact.

753
00:37:18,742 --> 00:37:22,942
Speaker 1: Well, of your other siblings and their mothers who were

754
00:37:22,982 --> 00:37:26,102
Speaker 1: all deceived, were they as pissed as you or did

755
00:37:26,102 --> 00:37:27,222
Speaker 1: they want you to let it go?

756
00:37:27,862 --> 00:37:32,702
Speaker 3: Both? So it's interesting. In my sibling pod, I feel

757
00:37:32,742 --> 00:37:35,502
Speaker 3: like we kind of have this difference between the females

758
00:37:35,502 --> 00:37:36,262
Speaker 3: and the males.

759
00:37:36,822 --> 00:37:38,222
Speaker 4: Most of the males.

760
00:37:37,902 --> 00:37:40,382
Speaker 3: Are like whatever, Like you know, it could have been

761
00:37:40,982 --> 00:37:42,902
Speaker 3: so rude, like could have been like the janitor or

762
00:37:42,942 --> 00:37:46,582
Speaker 3: someone off the street. The women are not okay with it.

763
00:37:46,862 --> 00:37:50,822
Speaker 3: But also he was some of their doctor, and so

764
00:37:50,862 --> 00:37:55,462
Speaker 3: he delivered their kids. Oh, he did their passengers, he

765
00:37:55,662 --> 00:37:59,622
Speaker 3: did their breast exams. One of our sisters we sent

766
00:37:59,662 --> 00:38:03,022
Speaker 3: a DNA test to she had an emergency surgery that

767
00:38:03,142 --> 00:38:06,062
Speaker 3: our brother did on her. She woke up to the

768
00:38:06,182 --> 00:38:09,982
Speaker 3: email confirming the DNA results. She was our sister, and

769
00:38:10,022 --> 00:38:12,622
Speaker 3: then she had to when our brother came in for

770
00:38:12,662 --> 00:38:14,782
Speaker 3: the follow up, tell him, hey, you know what, you

771
00:38:14,782 --> 00:38:17,022
Speaker 3: have to transfer my care because you're my brother.

772
00:38:17,422 --> 00:38:19,342
Speaker 1: So one of your brothers is a doctor.

773
00:38:19,462 --> 00:38:21,862
Speaker 4: With my biological father. He took over the.

774
00:38:21,822 --> 00:38:23,942
Speaker 1: Practice, is that one of his social kids.

775
00:38:24,382 --> 00:38:25,542
Speaker 4: That's one of his social kids.

776
00:38:25,702 --> 00:38:29,382
Speaker 3: For them, they obviously feel very strongly about it. But

777
00:38:29,422 --> 00:38:32,702
Speaker 3: then also they are living in that community that supports him,

778
00:38:32,942 --> 00:38:37,262
Speaker 3: so they are not known because of the social implications

779
00:38:37,702 --> 00:38:40,302
Speaker 3: that it has, and to have that level of feedback

780
00:38:40,422 --> 00:38:43,422
Speaker 3: all of the time is difficult for them.

781
00:38:43,902 --> 00:38:44,942
Speaker 4: But then you also.

782
00:38:44,822 --> 00:38:49,502
Speaker 3: Have the different dynamics that's in their nuclear family. For them,

783
00:38:49,582 --> 00:38:53,062
Speaker 3: they have the infertile recipient parent who is still alive,

784
00:38:53,502 --> 00:38:56,102
Speaker 3: so they are also protective of that relationship. So they

785
00:38:56,102 --> 00:38:58,222
Speaker 3: don't want to socially come out and say that not

786
00:38:58,262 --> 00:39:01,462
Speaker 3: only their donor deceived, but to reveal the secret of

787
00:39:01,502 --> 00:39:03,302
Speaker 3: infertility of their fathers.

788
00:39:03,342 --> 00:39:05,822
Speaker 1: So there's you know, it's a real spectrum of different

789
00:39:05,942 --> 00:39:10,142
Speaker 1: situations and different emotions and different probably points on that

790
00:39:10,942 --> 00:39:14,302
Speaker 1: of understanding and acceptance. I like that you just went

791
00:39:14,342 --> 00:39:16,422
Speaker 1: straight to rage such a mood.

792
00:39:16,862 --> 00:39:19,822
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh yes, no, it was like you now fucket.

793
00:39:21,222 --> 00:39:24,982
Speaker 1: After this short break, you'll discover how Eve intersected with

794
00:39:25,142 --> 00:39:29,342
Speaker 1: cereal sperm donor Jonathan Meyer from the Netflix series The

795
00:39:29,382 --> 00:39:36,302
Speaker 1: Man with a Thousand Kids. The place that I obviously

796
00:39:36,582 --> 00:39:39,702
Speaker 1: learned about you and even this idea of fertility fraud

797
00:39:39,782 --> 00:39:42,942
Speaker 1: is from the Netflix documentary The Man with a Thousand Children.

798
00:39:43,382 --> 00:39:46,142
Speaker 1: Can you briefly for people who haven't seen that, because

799
00:39:46,182 --> 00:39:49,382
Speaker 1: when things changed for another group of women who'd been

800
00:39:49,382 --> 00:39:52,542
Speaker 1: the victim of fertility fraud, they found you and you

801
00:39:52,702 --> 00:39:56,182
Speaker 1: really helped them bring this person to justice. Can you

802
00:39:56,222 --> 00:39:58,182
Speaker 1: tell the story of Jonathan Mayer?

803
00:39:58,702 --> 00:40:01,662
Speaker 3: So, I guess I should preface it with how they

804
00:40:01,742 --> 00:40:04,782
Speaker 3: found me. I have been a part of changing eleven

805
00:40:04,822 --> 00:40:07,862
Speaker 3: of the thirteen state laws in the United States that

806
00:40:07,942 --> 00:40:11,662
Speaker 3: criminalize and offers civil causes of actions for fertility fraud.

807
00:40:12,302 --> 00:40:17,262
Speaker 3: And so there was this lovely Australian couple who read

808
00:40:17,462 --> 00:40:20,102
Speaker 3: an article about me, and so they connected with me

809
00:40:20,302 --> 00:40:22,982
Speaker 3: and then got me connected with the other moms. And

810
00:40:23,102 --> 00:40:25,142
Speaker 3: that was I believe at the end of twenty nineteen,

811
00:40:25,142 --> 00:40:28,662
Speaker 3: maybe early twenty twenty, and they just wanted information of

812
00:40:28,702 --> 00:40:31,942
Speaker 3: you know, what can we do? What is the legal landscape?

813
00:40:31,982 --> 00:40:32,902
Speaker 3: Is there something we can do?

814
00:40:33,062 --> 00:40:35,422
Speaker 1: Because they had also been desaved, They.

815
00:40:35,262 --> 00:40:38,862
Speaker 3: Had also been deceived by cereal sperm donor and so

816
00:40:39,102 --> 00:40:43,182
Speaker 3: Jonathan had infiltrated one of the largest sperm banks and

817
00:40:43,302 --> 00:40:46,982
Speaker 3: eleven of the sperm banks, and he was also donating

818
00:40:47,102 --> 00:40:50,502
Speaker 3: on the private market and doing freelance, and so you know,

819
00:40:50,542 --> 00:40:53,382
Speaker 3: they were having hundreds of house siblings and they just

820
00:40:53,422 --> 00:40:54,902
Speaker 3: wanted him to stop.

821
00:40:55,262 --> 00:40:57,262
Speaker 1: And why did they want him to stop? Can you

822
00:40:57,302 --> 00:41:01,422
Speaker 1: explain the danger with unregulation and fertility fraud?

823
00:41:01,462 --> 00:41:05,742
Speaker 3: What's the danger for them in particular is the biodiversity concern.

824
00:41:06,222 --> 00:41:09,342
Speaker 3: What happens when you don't know that your donor conceived,

825
00:41:09,502 --> 00:41:11,422
Speaker 3: you hook up with a half and the level of

826
00:41:11,462 --> 00:41:15,222
Speaker 3: accidental incest that is the concern, especially when you're working

827
00:41:15,302 --> 00:41:19,342
Speaker 3: in a demographic like mainly the Netherlands where it's smaller

828
00:41:19,542 --> 00:41:23,782
Speaker 3: and you're more populous with his children and they don't know.

829
00:41:24,022 --> 00:41:27,502
Speaker 1: And how many children Haddie fathered in the Netherlands for example,

830
00:41:27,742 --> 00:41:28,462
Speaker 1: I don't remember.

831
00:41:28,302 --> 00:41:30,822
Speaker 4: Exactly what it was in the Netherlands, but.

832
00:41:30,822 --> 00:41:32,222
Speaker 1: It was like one hundred. It was like close to

833
00:41:32,342 --> 00:41:34,822
Speaker 1: hundreds up to one thousand all over the world, maybe

834
00:41:34,822 --> 00:41:36,422
Speaker 1: more right, because you know.

835
00:41:36,422 --> 00:41:39,182
Speaker 3: I mean the math with it, which I feel like

836
00:41:39,222 --> 00:41:40,382
Speaker 3: is what a lot of the media is like really

837
00:41:40,462 --> 00:41:43,662
Speaker 3: latched onto you. We can look at just cryos alone,

838
00:41:43,942 --> 00:41:47,622
Speaker 3: where he's going to Copenhagen once a month for four days.

839
00:41:48,702 --> 00:41:52,302
Speaker 1: Is a sperm bank in the sperm Yeah, in demark.

840
00:41:51,982 --> 00:41:55,822
Speaker 3: So that's roughly two hundred donations. And for him, as

841
00:41:55,862 --> 00:42:00,582
Speaker 3: he is brags, you know, fifteen strawls of sperm per ejaculation,

842
00:42:01,382 --> 00:42:04,262
Speaker 3: and if every straw makes a baby, that's the potential

843
00:42:04,262 --> 00:42:07,422
Speaker 3: three thousand. Now he has also come out and said

844
00:42:07,422 --> 00:42:12,582
Speaker 3: that he has spent fifty thousand hours donating. So like

845
00:42:12,822 --> 00:42:15,742
Speaker 3: the math Aine math in here, because if he spent

846
00:42:15,862 --> 00:42:19,942
Speaker 3: fifty thousand hours donating, then is it potentially fifty thousand

847
00:42:20,102 --> 00:42:23,102
Speaker 3: children and not every single one is going to make

848
00:42:23,102 --> 00:42:26,102
Speaker 3: a baby? The math aint math and either way, so

849
00:42:26,102 --> 00:42:28,222
Speaker 3: when he says, you know, I only have five hundred

850
00:42:28,222 --> 00:42:28,902
Speaker 3: and fifty.

851
00:42:28,702 --> 00:42:32,302
Speaker 1: Children, there are laws about this right to prevent accidental

852
00:42:32,382 --> 00:42:35,942
Speaker 1: incest and birth defects that could result from that, as

853
00:42:35,942 --> 00:42:38,902
Speaker 1: well as the moral implications of accidentally hooking up with

854
00:42:38,942 --> 00:42:42,342
Speaker 1: a half sibling. And I think in the Netherlands there's

855
00:42:42,382 --> 00:42:45,182
Speaker 1: a limit on you're only allowed twenty five and then

856
00:42:45,502 --> 00:42:47,262
Speaker 1: you can't donate anymore.

857
00:42:47,182 --> 00:42:48,302
Speaker 4: Per the banks.

858
00:42:48,462 --> 00:42:52,302
Speaker 3: But that's not including freelance, private market, or different countries

859
00:42:52,462 --> 00:42:55,222
Speaker 3: or different countries, because what ultimately ends up happening is

860
00:42:55,302 --> 00:42:58,262
Speaker 3: let's you know, he hits his limit in one country,

861
00:42:58,502 --> 00:43:00,902
Speaker 3: they export it to another country and the number goes

862
00:43:00,942 --> 00:43:04,862
Speaker 3: to zero. And so that is not something that is

863
00:43:04,902 --> 00:43:08,982
Speaker 3: transparent in this process because that may change how you

864
00:43:09,062 --> 00:43:11,862
Speaker 3: think about this. Right, Like my assumption would be when

865
00:43:11,862 --> 00:43:13,462
Speaker 3: I have a sperm donor and you say that it's

866
00:43:13,462 --> 00:43:16,582
Speaker 3: twenty five is the limit? I would think twenty five worldwide.

867
00:43:16,822 --> 00:43:19,462
Speaker 3: It's like read the fine print part, except there's no

868
00:43:19,542 --> 00:43:22,582
Speaker 3: fine print, but every time is to zero. So when

869
00:43:22,622 --> 00:43:24,622
Speaker 3: he does that and he does it as an alias,

870
00:43:24,782 --> 00:43:26,422
Speaker 3: or he's doing it on the private market, they're not

871
00:43:26,542 --> 00:43:30,262
Speaker 3: counting those. It's just deidentified sperm. It's just you know,

872
00:43:30,302 --> 00:43:32,702
Speaker 3: going to clinic to clinic to clinic to clinic.

873
00:43:32,742 --> 00:43:35,982
Speaker 1: And why Eve, why do these men do it?

874
00:43:36,542 --> 00:43:39,662
Speaker 3: Million dollar question. I'm going to put my therapist Haat

875
00:43:39,702 --> 00:43:42,222
Speaker 3: on for a second, and you know, like I do

876
00:43:42,342 --> 00:43:47,262
Speaker 3: psycho educational evaluations, and if we look at these group

877
00:43:47,302 --> 00:43:50,982
Speaker 3: of men as a whole, I definitely think that, you know,

878
00:43:50,982 --> 00:43:55,342
Speaker 3: we could consider a personality disorder on the DSM somewhere

879
00:43:55,342 --> 00:43:59,502
Speaker 3: in access to you. Is it narcissism? This desire is

880
00:43:59,542 --> 00:44:02,502
Speaker 3: an addiction? You know, the way that they talk about

881
00:44:02,502 --> 00:44:06,582
Speaker 3: their successes and it's a number and it's a competition,

882
00:44:07,302 --> 00:44:09,582
Speaker 3: and the way that they just work in general, like

883
00:44:09,622 --> 00:44:13,542
Speaker 3: making the fake profiles look really bad, so their real

884
00:44:13,582 --> 00:44:15,942
Speaker 3: profiles with an alias look really really good.

885
00:44:16,022 --> 00:44:17,662
Speaker 4: Like it's very manipulative.

886
00:44:17,822 --> 00:44:20,822
Speaker 1: Wait, explain that. What the documentary discovered is that there's

887
00:44:20,822 --> 00:44:22,862
Speaker 1: a group of Jonathan was part of these group of

888
00:44:22,902 --> 00:44:25,582
Speaker 1: men who were almost gamifi. Oh they were. They were

889
00:44:25,622 --> 00:44:29,742
Speaker 1: gamifying this idea of who can make the most babies

890
00:44:30,182 --> 00:44:32,902
Speaker 1: in the world. Yes, and so they would compete with

891
00:44:32,942 --> 00:44:35,822
Speaker 1: each other. They would keep score and what do you

892
00:44:35,862 --> 00:44:37,782
Speaker 1: mean about they would make fake profiles.

893
00:44:38,142 --> 00:44:41,342
Speaker 3: So there's lots of different platforms when we're talking about

894
00:44:41,782 --> 00:44:45,222
Speaker 3: the private market or freelance known donors, you know, there's

895
00:44:45,222 --> 00:44:47,902
Speaker 3: lots of different names for it. These men would make

896
00:44:47,982 --> 00:44:50,982
Speaker 3: a Facebook group and they were the admin and the moderators.

897
00:44:51,422 --> 00:44:54,542
Speaker 3: They'll let recipients in, but they won't let competition in,

898
00:44:55,222 --> 00:44:58,742
Speaker 3: and so the other ones like make a baby now

899
00:44:59,102 --> 00:45:01,142
Speaker 3: or you know, every country has.

900
00:45:01,182 --> 00:45:02,222
Speaker 4: Kind of like a different platform.

901
00:45:02,262 --> 00:45:05,662
Speaker 3: Think of it as like Craigslist, backpage ads, kind of

902
00:45:05,742 --> 00:45:07,902
Speaker 3: like that type of thing, and it's like it's for this,

903
00:45:08,742 --> 00:45:12,662
Speaker 3: and so they would make profiles that would be all aliases,

904
00:45:12,822 --> 00:45:14,982
Speaker 3: but one profile would be like, you know, their best

905
00:45:14,982 --> 00:45:17,062
Speaker 3: that picture of Jonathan, you know, looking cute.

906
00:45:16,902 --> 00:45:18,582
Speaker 1: As a baby or as an adult.

907
00:45:18,662 --> 00:45:19,502
Speaker 4: Yet, yeah, that one.

908
00:45:19,742 --> 00:45:21,662
Speaker 3: But then they would make fake ones that are really

909
00:45:21,662 --> 00:45:25,302
Speaker 3: really bad, like you know, miss Feld and all the characteristics,

910
00:45:25,342 --> 00:45:26,942
Speaker 3: so that they knew that they weren't looking for it.

911
00:45:26,942 --> 00:45:29,622
Speaker 3: Because when you are going through these profiles and you

912
00:45:29,622 --> 00:45:32,182
Speaker 3: go through twenty really bad ones and then you see Jonathan,

913
00:45:32,222 --> 00:45:33,782
Speaker 3: you're like, oh, oh my gosh, all.

914
00:45:33,782 --> 00:45:36,702
Speaker 1: Right, and that's why so many women would choose him.

915
00:45:37,622 --> 00:45:40,462
Speaker 3: But all of them did this, and so you know,

916
00:45:40,462 --> 00:45:43,462
Speaker 3: I think of like Simon Watson, Joe Doner, these aren't

917
00:45:43,462 --> 00:45:44,422
Speaker 3: even these guys.

918
00:45:44,262 --> 00:45:46,622
Speaker 4: Real names, except well Jonathan obviously.

919
00:45:47,422 --> 00:45:50,342
Speaker 3: Then they compete, then they have their moderators of the group,

920
00:45:50,662 --> 00:45:53,422
Speaker 3: and then it's just successes. They post pregnancy tests and

921
00:45:53,462 --> 00:45:56,142
Speaker 3: they brag about someone that they got pregnant, and then

922
00:45:56,142 --> 00:45:59,022
Speaker 3: they create their own little mom group. But they don't

923
00:45:59,062 --> 00:46:01,942
Speaker 3: have any of the responsibilities of being you know, a

924
00:46:01,982 --> 00:46:06,142
Speaker 3: father figure. Very few of them had donor contracts, and

925
00:46:06,222 --> 00:46:09,622
Speaker 3: if anybody would speak out of turn, all they do

926
00:46:09,702 --> 00:46:12,262
Speaker 3: is threaten and say, well, I'm just going to sue

927
00:46:12,302 --> 00:46:14,902
Speaker 3: you for custody and then you use your kid happy time.

928
00:46:15,662 --> 00:46:19,182
Speaker 3: So women, you know, are like, well, okay, I definitely

929
00:46:19,182 --> 00:46:22,742
Speaker 3: don't want you to now, you know, be co parenting

930
00:46:22,822 --> 00:46:26,662
Speaker 3: with me, and so it's it's really manipulative in that sense,

931
00:46:26,662 --> 00:46:27,622
Speaker 3: but it's dangerous.

932
00:46:27,862 --> 00:46:28,982
Speaker 1: How do you stop him?

933
00:46:29,262 --> 00:46:32,582
Speaker 3: It was hard in the Netherlands. The moms were very

934
00:46:32,662 --> 00:46:36,382
Speaker 3: much feeling was what I felt, the duty to inform,

935
00:46:36,862 --> 00:46:43,422
Speaker 3: because how can you possibly consent or assent and if

936
00:46:43,422 --> 00:46:46,462
Speaker 3: there is information that would change the way in which

937
00:46:46,502 --> 00:46:49,622
Speaker 3: you made an informed decision, you need to know about it.

938
00:46:49,662 --> 00:46:52,582
Speaker 3: So this duty to warn and inform, how can you

939
00:46:52,662 --> 00:46:55,982
Speaker 3: do that when in the Netherlands you can't name him?

940
00:46:56,542 --> 00:46:59,182
Speaker 3: It was just Dutch donor, Dutch done or Dutch donor.

941
00:46:59,302 --> 00:47:00,822
Speaker 1: Why couldn't he be named.

942
00:47:00,862 --> 00:47:05,142
Speaker 3: Because that's part of some policy, like you can't out

943
00:47:05,182 --> 00:47:06,982
Speaker 3: them in the media for some reason.

944
00:47:07,302 --> 00:47:09,782
Speaker 1: So how can anyone avoid using him again if they

945
00:47:09,782 --> 00:47:12,022
Speaker 1: don't know he's not And.

946
00:47:12,142 --> 00:47:15,502
Speaker 3: Wow, you cannot make an informed decision because no one's

947
00:47:15,542 --> 00:47:18,222
Speaker 3: going to think, oh, let me google Dutch donor, Well,

948
00:47:18,222 --> 00:47:19,582
Speaker 3: which Dutch donor?

949
00:47:19,702 --> 00:47:21,862
Speaker 1: And also, how do you make a lure in one

950
00:47:21,902 --> 00:47:24,582
Speaker 1: country that applies to every country.

951
00:47:24,422 --> 00:47:28,182
Speaker 3: And the answer is you don't. So for us, the

952
00:47:28,302 --> 00:47:31,262
Speaker 3: very first thing was, and this was my experience with everything,

953
00:47:31,302 --> 00:47:33,582
Speaker 3: what do you do when you are existing in a

954
00:47:33,622 --> 00:47:38,222
Speaker 3: legal landscape that has literally nothing. You don't have sperm

955
00:47:38,262 --> 00:47:41,422
Speaker 3: banks that are required to talk to each other. Every

956
00:47:41,542 --> 00:47:44,462
Speaker 3: country is so different. You have some countries that really

957
00:47:44,462 --> 00:47:48,102
Speaker 3: have this buttoned up, but because of their stricter laws,

958
00:47:48,102 --> 00:47:50,622
Speaker 3: it actually pushes people to go underground to these known

959
00:47:50,662 --> 00:47:54,502
Speaker 3: donors and makes them, you know, more susceptible to the

960
00:47:54,502 --> 00:47:57,702
Speaker 3: predatory behavior of these serial donors just out of necessity.

961
00:47:57,902 --> 00:48:00,662
Speaker 3: Right then you have the wild wild West like us

962
00:48:00,702 --> 00:48:03,822
Speaker 3: in America, where it's like what laws. My first thing

963
00:48:03,902 --> 00:48:05,262
Speaker 3: was we got to start really small, and the first

964
00:48:05,262 --> 00:48:07,222
Speaker 3: thing that we can do to meet the first goal

965
00:48:07,822 --> 00:48:11,622
Speaker 3: is to get his name out there. That was, let's

966
00:48:11,702 --> 00:48:13,822
Speaker 3: talk to the New York Times and you guys come forward,

967
00:48:13,902 --> 00:48:16,942
Speaker 3: because in America you can name him. And that's what

968
00:48:16,982 --> 00:48:18,662
Speaker 3: we did. As soon as he was named, then he

969
00:48:18,742 --> 00:48:22,182
Speaker 3: was linked with all of you know, Dutch donor and

970
00:48:22,302 --> 00:48:26,182
Speaker 3: it was all put together and then notifying Cryos International

971
00:48:26,702 --> 00:48:29,422
Speaker 3: and hoping that they could somehow remove all of his

972
00:48:29,462 --> 00:48:31,702
Speaker 3: straws that they had sent all over the world. So

973
00:48:31,782 --> 00:48:34,902
Speaker 3: that was the first part. The second part was the

974
00:48:34,982 --> 00:48:38,382
Speaker 3: moms had been working with donor kind in the Netherlands

975
00:48:38,462 --> 00:48:42,462
Speaker 3: since like twenty seventeen, which is an organization there, and

976
00:48:42,502 --> 00:48:44,342
Speaker 3: the moms ended up coming up with this group called

977
00:48:44,382 --> 00:48:46,142
Speaker 3: Moms on a Mission and that was kind of like

978
00:48:46,262 --> 00:48:49,462
Speaker 3: you know, our mission and you know, having all of

979
00:48:49,502 --> 00:48:52,662
Speaker 3: these pieces fit together to figure out how to stop him.

980
00:48:53,062 --> 00:48:57,102
Speaker 3: So the Brave Moms took him to court and he

981
00:48:57,182 --> 00:49:00,902
Speaker 3: represented himself. The argument was like, listen, he's it's kind

982
00:49:00,902 --> 00:49:03,022
Speaker 3: of like danger to society at this point, Like he

983
00:49:03,102 --> 00:49:05,222
Speaker 3: has this amount of kids that we know of. Our

984
00:49:05,262 --> 00:49:07,862
Speaker 3: kids go to school together, they live right, we're neighbors

985
00:49:07,902 --> 00:49:08,382
Speaker 3: all the time.

986
00:49:08,462 --> 00:49:09,262
Speaker 4: Like this is wild.

987
00:49:09,582 --> 00:49:11,662
Speaker 3: So he comes in and like you see the documentary

988
00:49:11,662 --> 00:49:14,542
Speaker 3: with the story, like it's a oh judge, you don't understand.

989
00:49:14,542 --> 00:49:16,702
Speaker 3: It's a new concept, Like they just need a special

990
00:49:16,742 --> 00:49:19,862
Speaker 3: symbol to be branded next to their name, and like

991
00:49:19,902 --> 00:49:22,222
Speaker 3: my children are so smart, like they won't.

992
00:49:21,982 --> 00:49:23,702
Speaker 4: Hook up with each other. Blah blah blah.

993
00:49:23,702 --> 00:49:25,782
Speaker 3: Me he just ran his mouth like an idiot.

994
00:49:25,902 --> 00:49:28,182
Speaker 1: That was chilling when he said they should be marked

995
00:49:28,182 --> 00:49:29,302
Speaker 1: on social media.

996
00:49:29,502 --> 00:49:34,022
Speaker 3: Yep, that it would be like this pride like verification. Yeah, exactly,

997
00:49:34,062 --> 00:49:34,982
Speaker 3: it's a new concept.

998
00:49:35,582 --> 00:49:38,742
Speaker 1: Oh my god. So he's like a cult leader, but

999
00:49:38,822 --> 00:49:41,182
Speaker 1: it's also eugenics it's terrifying.

1000
00:49:41,662 --> 00:49:42,582
Speaker 4: It is terrifying.

1001
00:49:42,662 --> 00:49:45,182
Speaker 3: And then he has years of these YouTube videos of

1002
00:49:45,262 --> 00:49:49,542
Speaker 3: like him basically seems like he's like parenting his children.

1003
00:49:49,222 --> 00:49:53,022
Speaker 1: Talking about his philosophies on everything from politics to the environment,

1004
00:49:53,142 --> 00:49:57,662
Speaker 1: to being anti woke, to listening to your ancestors and

1005
00:49:57,702 --> 00:50:02,582
Speaker 1: being grateful to your biological parents. Brainwashing cool, like.

1006
00:50:02,702 --> 00:50:06,542
Speaker 3: Right, the judge was he was selling bullshit, but she

1007
00:50:06,702 --> 00:50:09,542
Speaker 3: wasn't buying, and so she was like, you know, you

1008
00:50:09,622 --> 00:50:11,982
Speaker 3: do this again and you're going to get fined one

1009
00:50:12,062 --> 00:50:13,182
Speaker 3: hundred thousand euro.

1010
00:50:13,302 --> 00:50:14,862
Speaker 1: It's what it was, per donation.

1011
00:50:15,382 --> 00:50:16,022
Speaker 4: Yes, you know.

1012
00:50:16,262 --> 00:50:19,102
Speaker 3: My favorite part was when you know, he's like, what,

1013
00:50:19,382 --> 00:50:21,502
Speaker 3: I'm a good father, Like I show up at birthdays,

1014
00:50:21,582 --> 00:50:24,182
Speaker 3: I show up at this and she's like, it's not

1015
00:50:24,342 --> 00:50:28,102
Speaker 3: possible for you to attend every graduation and every birthday

1016
00:50:28,222 --> 00:50:30,702
Speaker 3: and every life Like when you have this many children.

1017
00:50:30,462 --> 00:50:33,062
Speaker 1: You have hundreds and hundreds of thousands and thousands of children.

1018
00:50:33,182 --> 00:50:35,022
Speaker 3: I mean, the reality is like he's only going to

1019
00:50:35,102 --> 00:50:37,662
Speaker 3: admit to what we know, right, And it's just like

1020
00:50:37,702 --> 00:50:41,182
Speaker 3: my biological father, he only admitted to what I said.

1021
00:50:41,902 --> 00:50:44,462
Speaker 3: And so it's like every time anyone comes up, it's

1022
00:50:44,462 --> 00:50:46,382
Speaker 3: going to keep going and keep climbing and keep climbing,

1023
00:50:46,462 --> 00:50:48,782
Speaker 3: keep climbing. And we saw this with the Netflix documentary

1024
00:50:48,862 --> 00:50:52,702
Speaker 3: Our Father, where the number of those have siblings from

1025
00:50:52,742 --> 00:50:56,862
Speaker 3: Donald Climb kept climbing, climbing after the duty to inform

1026
00:50:56,942 --> 00:51:01,102
Speaker 3: and warn had been out there and people recognize, Oh

1027
00:51:01,142 --> 00:51:02,982
Speaker 3: my god, I think that I may have been victimized

1028
00:51:03,022 --> 00:51:03,102
Speaker 3: to you.

1029
00:51:03,342 --> 00:51:05,182
Speaker 4: And that is exactly what we will be seeing.

1030
00:51:05,342 --> 00:51:09,262
Speaker 1: What's Jonathan doing now? What's happened since the documentary came out?

1031
00:51:09,302 --> 00:51:10,982
Speaker 1: Do you know is he still trying to donate? I

1032
00:51:10,982 --> 00:51:13,182
Speaker 1: can't imagine he'd just go, oh okay, I'll stop.

1033
00:51:14,182 --> 00:51:15,702
Speaker 4: Who knows well?

1034
00:51:16,342 --> 00:51:18,662
Speaker 3: He has been giving me some shout outs on his

1035
00:51:18,782 --> 00:51:22,822
Speaker 3: YouTube channel. He thinks I am the mastermind, so you know,

1036
00:51:22,862 --> 00:51:24,782
Speaker 3: I'll put on my best Taylor.

1037
00:51:24,502 --> 00:51:26,222
Speaker 4: Swift, I'll take that.

1038
00:51:26,782 --> 00:51:27,742
Speaker 3: Yeah, that crown.

1039
00:51:28,542 --> 00:51:28,702
Speaker 1: You know.

1040
00:51:28,742 --> 00:51:32,942
Speaker 3: He's threatening a lawsuit for slander and just he's spiraling,

1041
00:51:33,062 --> 00:51:36,222
Speaker 3: is what. I think. He had an opportunity to participate

1042
00:51:36,342 --> 00:51:38,742
Speaker 3: and to you know, give his side of the story,

1043
00:51:38,782 --> 00:51:41,982
Speaker 3: but he didn't. So I think he's just sitting in

1044
00:51:41,982 --> 00:51:43,822
Speaker 3: the woods making YouTube videos right now.

1045
00:51:43,902 --> 00:51:45,302
Speaker 4: That's all from what I can see.

1046
00:51:45,542 --> 00:51:49,662
Speaker 1: Camer Is my boyfriend, Yeah, exactly, that's right. Eve, you

1047
00:51:49,782 --> 00:51:52,662
Speaker 1: are a warrior for women. I wanted to ask you

1048
00:51:52,702 --> 00:51:55,742
Speaker 1: one more question when I was watching you and the

1049
00:51:55,822 --> 00:52:00,622
Speaker 1: other donor deceived people fighting going to Capitol Hill trying

1050
00:52:00,622 --> 00:52:04,342
Speaker 1: to get national legislation, trying to get people to understand

1051
00:52:04,702 --> 00:52:09,182
Speaker 1: what this medical rape is. Essentially women being impregnated with

1052
00:52:09,222 --> 00:52:12,382
Speaker 1: sperm without they can see, or being defrauded. You are

1053
00:52:12,542 --> 00:52:16,862
Speaker 1: essentially arguing against your own existence, and I imagine a

1054
00:52:16,862 --> 00:52:18,742
Speaker 1: lot of people use that as a way to try

1055
00:52:18,782 --> 00:52:21,302
Speaker 1: and shut you up, like the preacher did and those

1056
00:52:21,302 --> 00:52:23,822
Speaker 1: people in your community. How do you feel about that?

1057
00:52:23,982 --> 00:52:25,022
Speaker 1: How do you reconcile that?

1058
00:52:25,382 --> 00:52:25,542
Speaker 4: Well?

1059
00:52:25,622 --> 00:52:29,862
Speaker 3: Usually what I say is I am not talking about

1060
00:52:29,982 --> 00:52:33,102
Speaker 3: being grateful to be alive or my existence in general.

1061
00:52:33,382 --> 00:52:34,822
Speaker 1: Oh, wishing you'd never been born?

1062
00:52:35,142 --> 00:52:36,382
Speaker 4: I whish I would never be born.

1063
00:52:36,542 --> 00:52:39,462
Speaker 3: I'm not debating the facts of that. I am talking

1064
00:52:39,462 --> 00:52:44,182
Speaker 3: about the deception around conception, the lack of enforcing informed consent,

1065
00:52:44,902 --> 00:52:49,902
Speaker 3: and how in this particular instance, morality does not equate legality.

1066
00:52:50,902 --> 00:52:54,822
Speaker 3: And so separating those two things I think are very

1067
00:52:54,862 --> 00:52:58,422
Speaker 3: important because it is very easy to conflate those two things.

1068
00:52:58,902 --> 00:53:01,702
Speaker 3: What is it like, the end to the means means

1069
00:53:01,702 --> 00:53:04,302
Speaker 3: to the end? Yeah, right, Yeah, it's hard to not

1070
00:53:04,422 --> 00:53:07,222
Speaker 3: be able to look at that and say, but you're here,

1071
00:53:07,742 --> 00:53:10,062
Speaker 3: and I am so grateful to be alive. But I

1072
00:53:10,062 --> 00:53:12,662
Speaker 3: can have opposite feelings about this and hold space for that.

1073
00:53:12,702 --> 00:53:14,982
Speaker 3: I'm grateful to be alive, but I am very upset

1074
00:53:14,982 --> 00:53:18,782
Speaker 3: about the deception around my conception. And if I truly

1075
00:53:18,822 --> 00:53:21,702
Speaker 3: believe that we need to leave this world better than

1076
00:53:21,742 --> 00:53:24,422
Speaker 3: we found it, I need to find the purpose in

1077
00:53:24,462 --> 00:53:26,782
Speaker 3: my pain, and I need to do it not only

1078
00:53:26,822 --> 00:53:28,222
Speaker 3: for the rest of the people and the women who

1079
00:53:28,262 --> 00:53:30,782
Speaker 3: have been deceived, but also, you know, at a very

1080
00:53:30,782 --> 00:53:33,182
Speaker 3: basic level, just to be an example from my girls,

1081
00:53:33,262 --> 00:53:36,342
Speaker 3: that it's not always the tragedy that happens to you,

1082
00:53:36,422 --> 00:53:39,822
Speaker 3: it's what you do with it, and that is empowerment.

1083
00:53:40,222 --> 00:53:44,382
Speaker 1: What a note to end on. You're amazing. It is

1084
00:53:44,462 --> 00:53:47,502
Speaker 1: amazing to me that Eve might have got her whole

1085
00:53:47,502 --> 00:53:50,822
Speaker 1: life not knowing the truth about her conception if she

1086
00:53:50,862 --> 00:53:54,022
Speaker 1: hadn't done that thing that teenagers do, which is snoop.

1087
00:53:54,862 --> 00:53:57,542
Speaker 1: I guess she probably would have found out when she

1088
00:53:57,622 --> 00:54:00,702
Speaker 1: did some of those DNA tests after her son got sick.

1089
00:54:01,702 --> 00:54:04,342
Speaker 1: But the fact that that snooping led her to Steve,

1090
00:54:04,782 --> 00:54:07,342
Speaker 1: who for years she believed was her birth father, only

1091
00:54:07,382 --> 00:54:10,222
Speaker 1: to have another grenade launched into her life and her

1092
00:54:11,542 --> 00:54:13,542
Speaker 1: when her son became ill and she found out that

1093
00:54:13,582 --> 00:54:16,462
Speaker 1: he actually wasn't her father. It reminded me of that

1094
00:54:16,502 --> 00:54:19,502
Speaker 1: story about Tony Abbot. It came out that an old

1095
00:54:19,582 --> 00:54:23,022
Speaker 1: girlfriend of his had had a son and had adopted

1096
00:54:23,102 --> 00:54:25,822
Speaker 1: him out and had never told Tony Abbott that she

1097
00:54:25,902 --> 00:54:28,622
Speaker 1: was pregnant. And then this guy who turned out to

1098
00:54:28,622 --> 00:54:32,702
Speaker 1: be a cameraman at Parliament House who'd filmed Tony Abbot

1099
00:54:32,742 --> 00:54:36,622
Speaker 1: many times in his political career, turned out to be

1100
00:54:36,742 --> 00:54:40,502
Speaker 1: this child, and he tracked down his biological mother, who

1101
00:54:40,582 --> 00:54:44,182
Speaker 1: explained who his biological father was, and it was in

1102
00:54:44,222 --> 00:54:46,662
Speaker 1: the press at the time. You know, Tony Abbot handled

1103
00:54:46,662 --> 00:54:49,702
Speaker 1: it really well, and it was quite a beautiful story

1104
00:54:49,742 --> 00:54:52,062
Speaker 1: and everyone loved, you know, the coincidence of the fact

1105
00:54:52,102 --> 00:54:54,222
Speaker 1: that they'd been working in the same workplace without even

1106
00:54:54,222 --> 00:54:57,542
Speaker 1: realizing they were father and son. And then a little

1107
00:54:57,542 --> 00:55:01,102
Speaker 1: while later it turned out that actually Tony Abbot wasn't

1108
00:55:01,102 --> 00:55:03,782
Speaker 1: the father. There was a different biological father, and the

1109
00:55:03,822 --> 00:55:07,222
Speaker 1: mother had actually just got it wrong. I really remember

1110
00:55:07,302 --> 00:55:11,262
Speaker 1: feeling how poignant that situation was, because they'd done interviews

1111
00:55:11,262 --> 00:55:14,622
Speaker 1: and spoken about how they were sort of forging this relationship,

1112
00:55:14,702 --> 00:55:17,222
Speaker 1: and Tony Abbot had three daughters and then he had

1113
00:55:17,222 --> 00:55:20,102
Speaker 1: this son, and it was just a really interesting, quite

1114
00:55:20,142 --> 00:55:22,262
Speaker 1: beautiful story at a time when Tony Abbott was not

1115
00:55:22,302 --> 00:55:26,342
Speaker 1: a very popular guy. And then I remember wondering, how

1116
00:55:26,382 --> 00:55:30,022
Speaker 1: do you unpack that? How do you even find a

1117
00:55:30,342 --> 00:55:32,982
Speaker 1: place to file that in your heart when you thought

1118
00:55:33,022 --> 00:55:36,662
Speaker 1: someone was maybe your biological parent and then they weren't.

1119
00:55:37,422 --> 00:55:40,622
Speaker 1: I was so relieved that Eve has stayed friends with Steve,

1120
00:55:41,462 --> 00:55:43,582
Speaker 1: but then what do you do about the fact that

1121
00:55:43,622 --> 00:55:47,982
Speaker 1: your actual biological father is an asshole. I'll be honest,

1122
00:55:48,022 --> 00:55:50,942
Speaker 1: I've never really thought about fertility fraud before the Netflix series,

1123
00:55:51,422 --> 00:55:54,662
Speaker 1: but now I cannot look away. I'm thinking about it

1124
00:55:54,702 --> 00:55:56,782
Speaker 1: a lot. And it turns out there are a lot

1125
00:55:56,782 --> 00:56:00,782
Speaker 1: of men out there who were, I don't know, narcissistic psychopaths,

1126
00:56:01,622 --> 00:56:03,822
Speaker 1: men who are doing this to women and families every day,

1127
00:56:03,862 --> 00:56:05,662
Speaker 1: and it's really struck a nerve. I think that's why

1128
00:56:05,702 --> 00:56:09,662
Speaker 1: this show on Netflix became number one all over the world,

1129
00:56:09,742 --> 00:56:14,022
Speaker 1: because there's this idea about bodily autonomy, the fact that

1130
00:56:14,102 --> 00:56:17,462
Speaker 1: someone can either give you their sperm under false pretenses

1131
00:56:17,662 --> 00:56:20,702
Speaker 1: or put their sperm in your body without you consenting

1132
00:56:20,742 --> 00:56:23,062
Speaker 1: to it, and it's not even a crime in many

1133
00:56:23,102 --> 00:56:27,102
Speaker 1: states in America. It's just wild. Thank you for listening.

1134
00:56:27,502 --> 00:56:30,902
Speaker 1: No Filter's executive producer is niam A Brown, another woman

1135
00:56:30,942 --> 00:56:34,502
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with, and our audio producer is Leah Porges,

1136
00:56:34,782 --> 00:56:39,142
Speaker 1: who you know I'm obsessed with. I'm Meya Friedman. Be safe,

1137
00:56:39,142 --> 00:56:46,622
Speaker 1: out their friends and watch out for each other. Okay.

1138
00:56:47,342 --> 00:56:49,582
Speaker 2: If you're looking for something else to listen to, like

1139
00:56:49,662 --> 00:56:52,342
Speaker 2: and follow all of our Muma Mea podcasts, which are

1140
00:56:52,342 --> 00:56:55,622
Speaker 2: currently bringing you Hot Pod Summer one hundred hours of

1141
00:56:55,622 --> 00:57:00,422
Speaker 2: summer listens, from spicy conversations to incredible stories, fashion, beauty,

1142
00:57:00,582 --> 00:57:01,182
Speaker 2: and more.