WEBVTT - What Life Is Like After You Decide Not To Have Kids 0:00:10.405 --> 0:00:14.165 You're listening to a Mother and Me a podcast Mama 0:00:14.245 --> 0:00:16.965 Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that 0:00:17.005 --> 0:00:28.045 this podcast is recorded on for MoMA me, Or you're 0:00:28.085 --> 0:00:30.805 listening to no filter. My name's Mia Friedman and my 0:00:30.965 --> 0:00:33.445 voice was a little bit croky, but bear with me 0:00:33.925 --> 0:00:37.725 because this is a really interesting episode. I always knew 0:00:37.765 --> 0:00:38.805 I was going to have kids. 0:00:39.525 --> 0:00:41.605 But if you were a girl or a woman who 0:00:41.645 --> 0:00:44.645 doesn't think she wants to have kids, where are your 0:00:44.765 --> 0:00:48.285 role models for what your life could look like? Because 0:00:48.325 --> 0:00:52.525 portrayals of happy mums and just actually mums are everywhere, 0:00:52.565 --> 0:00:55.565 but rarely do we see women who choose not to 0:00:55.645 --> 0:01:00.085 have children shown in a positive light. Even in this 0:01:00.205 --> 0:01:03.165 year of Our Lord twenty twenty four, a woman over 0:01:03.205 --> 0:01:06.725 thirty five who doesn't have kids is viewed with what 0:01:06.885 --> 0:01:07.285 is it like? 0:01:07.405 --> 0:01:07.765 Pity? 0:01:08.365 --> 0:01:15.045 Suspicion, confusion, apprehension maybe, And if that's you, if you're 0:01:15.085 --> 0:01:18.125 one of those women who for whatever reason doesn't have kids, 0:01:18.925 --> 0:01:23.125 you're forced to deal with some pretty nosy and frankly 0:01:23.245 --> 0:01:27.125 rude questions. Why don't you have them? Do you want kids? 0:01:27.645 --> 0:01:31.885 Don't you like kids? Have you chosen ambition over motherhood? 0:01:32.685 --> 0:01:36.285 Have you put your work and your career before family. 0:01:37.125 --> 0:01:40.045 We'll look after you when you're old. Aren't you worried 0:01:40.085 --> 0:01:43.525 about dying alone? Have you thought about adopting? What about 0:01:43.525 --> 0:01:47.405 ec donation? It's never too late or surrogate. Be sure 0:01:47.405 --> 0:01:50.165 you won't change your mind, and I bet you'll change 0:01:50.165 --> 0:01:54.205 your mind. It's pretty brutal the questions that you get 0:01:54.245 --> 0:01:56.765 asked if you don't have kids. And I am going 0:01:56.845 --> 0:02:00.085 to admit I'm guilty of asking some of those questions 0:02:00.125 --> 0:02:04.885 and saying some of those things myself. Now I'm careful 0:02:04.885 --> 0:02:07.005 who I say them to. Because the thing is, the 0:02:07.045 --> 0:02:10.765 thing that I've learned is because we all know women 0:02:10.925 --> 0:02:14.165 who don't have children, even though they really wanted them, 0:02:14.405 --> 0:02:17.605 because maybe they had fertility issues, or maybe they just 0:02:17.645 --> 0:02:21.045 didn't meet the right person at the right time, and 0:02:21.125 --> 0:02:24.525 now that window and that choice is not available to them. 0:02:25.085 --> 0:02:28.285 And for those people, those women, it's an incredibly fraught 0:02:28.325 --> 0:02:31.085 topic and a really distressing one at times, because they 0:02:31.165 --> 0:02:33.165 really wanted to be a mother, or maybe they thought 0:02:33.165 --> 0:02:36.565 they would be a mother and it just wasn't their 0:02:36.645 --> 0:02:39.965 choice not to be one. But there are more and 0:02:40.045 --> 0:02:43.245 more women who aren't child free by circumstance. They're child 0:02:43.285 --> 0:02:46.965 free by choice. And this seems to bring up a 0:02:46.965 --> 0:02:50.005 whole lot of weird feelings in people who feel like 0:02:50.045 --> 0:02:53.285 it's their job to convince everyone to procreate. And I 0:02:53.325 --> 0:02:55.685 don't even know why this is, But when I was 0:02:55.725 --> 0:02:58.085 thinking about this episode, I started making a list in 0:02:58.085 --> 0:03:00.765 my head of all the famous women I could think 0:03:00.805 --> 0:03:03.725 of who didn't have kids. And I thought of Glorious 0:03:03.725 --> 0:03:08.805 Steinem and Julie Bishop and Elizabeth Gilbert and Julia Gillard, 0:03:09.365 --> 0:03:11.885 all of whom I've interviewed on this show. Actually, Jennifer 0:03:11.885 --> 0:03:16.805 Aniston and Renees Elwigger, Angela Merkele, Kylie Minogue, Tracy Ellis Ross, 0:03:16.965 --> 0:03:22.045 Chelsea Handler, Kamala Harris, the Vice President. These are women 0:03:22.085 --> 0:03:25.205 who've accomplished and are still accomplishing so much. They're living 0:03:25.325 --> 0:03:28.445 very fulfilling lives without children, and so many women are, 0:03:29.445 --> 0:03:32.525 and yet as a society we still don't really know 0:03:33.245 --> 0:03:36.045 not just how to accept that some women don't want children, 0:03:36.765 --> 0:03:39.285 but that some women celebrate it. And if the women 0:03:39.325 --> 0:03:42.245 are listed, we don't know how many of those women 0:03:42.445 --> 0:03:46.045 are child free or childless, because there's kind of a difference, 0:03:46.085 --> 0:03:48.045 is in't there? We don't know how many of them 0:03:48.085 --> 0:03:51.925 actually chose not to have kids. But instead of pichying 0:03:52.005 --> 0:03:55.205 those women or viewing their lives as somehow less than 0:03:55.525 --> 0:03:58.405 the lives of women who are mothers, today you're going 0:03:58.445 --> 0:04:03.125 to hear a different story. Farrest Daw celebrates her life 0:04:03.245 --> 0:04:05.805 and she's proud of her choice to be a non parent, 0:04:06.045 --> 0:04:07.805 which makes it sound like she wears some kind of 0:04:07.845 --> 0:04:10.085 badge going I don't have kids, I'm so proud, or 0:04:10.085 --> 0:04:14.045 that she organizes parades. That's not true. But she prefers 0:04:14.085 --> 0:04:19.645 the term non parent because she says child less makes 0:04:19.645 --> 0:04:21.805 it sound like her life is lacking, which she says 0:04:21.845 --> 0:04:24.925 it's not. And she says child free makes it seem 0:04:25.245 --> 0:04:28.445 like she doesn't like kids, and she does. You're going 0:04:28.525 --> 0:04:30.445 to hear more about all of that in a minute now. 0:04:30.485 --> 0:04:33.165 Throughout her career, Fara has worn many hats. She was 0:04:33.205 --> 0:04:36.245 a journalist before she became the founding editor of Women's 0:04:36.245 --> 0:04:38.925 Health magazine in the UK, she was the editor of 0:04:38.965 --> 0:04:42.565 Cosmo and Elle, and today she works for Substak, which 0:04:42.605 --> 0:04:45.085 is a newsletter platform, and she also writes her own 0:04:45.205 --> 0:04:50.085 essays on Substak called Things Worth Knowing. I'm excited about 0:04:50.125 --> 0:04:53.605 bringing you this conversation today because now at forty five, 0:04:54.325 --> 0:04:58.085 ten years after she and her husband officially decided to 0:04:58.165 --> 0:05:01.805 stop trying to have kids. Fara is offering us a 0:05:01.925 --> 0:05:06.445 much fuller, more optimistic, and positive picture of what choosing 0:05:06.525 --> 0:05:10.005 a life as a non parent can look like. Is 0:05:10.045 --> 0:05:14.325 now one of those role models. Here's my conversation with Firestorm. 0:05:17.525 --> 0:05:19.925 How long had you been trying to get pregnant and 0:05:19.965 --> 0:05:21.125 how old were you at the time. 0:05:21.605 --> 0:05:24.005 So I was thirty six at the time, and we 0:05:24.165 --> 0:05:27.845 had been trying maybe for about three years, I think 0:05:27.925 --> 0:05:30.445 three or four years. But you know, when I say trying, 0:05:30.645 --> 0:05:32.605 I also think that the signs were there. You know, 0:05:33.285 --> 0:05:35.485 my husband had brought me all these fertility monitors, and 0:05:35.525 --> 0:05:37.325 I remember he found it one time and he went, far, 0:05:37.445 --> 0:05:40.245 it's got dust on it, And so all the sort 0:05:40.285 --> 0:05:43.525 of signs were there. Really that even though we were 0:05:43.565 --> 0:05:46.005 sort of doing everything right, you know, we were having 0:05:46.005 --> 0:05:47.845 sex when we knew we had to have sex, and 0:05:47.885 --> 0:05:51.325 I was occasionally using the fertility monitor. You know, I 0:05:51.365 --> 0:05:53.005 was looking after my body. I was making sure I 0:05:53.005 --> 0:05:56.045 was in the best shape of my life. But really 0:05:56.725 --> 0:06:00.005 the sort of dedication I think it needed when I 0:06:00.005 --> 0:06:02.805 look back now, it probably wasn't quite there to the 0:06:02.845 --> 0:06:05.525 degree that I see other women dedicated to the pursuit 0:06:05.605 --> 0:06:07.125 of motherhood and having a child. 0:06:07.445 --> 0:06:10.245 Well, you were actually doing a lot though exactly phoning 0:06:10.245 --> 0:06:11.525 it in, right, I mean, I. 0:06:11.485 --> 0:06:13.325 Did so much. I went on these crazy fasts. I 0:06:13.365 --> 0:06:15.725 went to see this woman who was like, you know, 0:06:15.845 --> 0:06:18.845 she was like the European expert on fertility, you aren't. 0:06:18.685 --> 0:06:19.685 Finding it in No. 0:06:19.965 --> 0:06:21.365 I mean, I'm pretty good at when I set my 0:06:21.405 --> 0:06:23.565 mind on something, I go after it. So I was 0:06:23.725 --> 0:06:25.805 doing all the things that I thought you should do, 0:06:25.965 --> 0:06:27.645 but yet behind the scenes, when it was sort of 0:06:27.725 --> 0:06:31.565 left to my own devices, you know, dusty fertility monitor, 0:06:32.205 --> 0:06:35.765 I think there was this sort of ray ambivalence behind 0:06:35.805 --> 0:06:38.205 it all, but the big sort of show of I'm 0:06:38.205 --> 0:06:41.365 really trying really hard to get pregnant everyone. I definitely 0:06:41.485 --> 0:06:43.125 do all that to the signs and signals that I 0:06:43.165 --> 0:06:47.205 wanted to have a family. Suit that with some gusto. 0:06:47.645 --> 0:06:51.525 For those who haven't experienced the very specific misery of 0:06:51.605 --> 0:06:55.565 conception sex when you're trying to get pregnant, what are 0:06:55.605 --> 0:06:58.925 your memories of that type of sex without you know, 0:06:59.165 --> 0:07:00.445 wanting to pry too much? 0:07:00.725 --> 0:07:03.405 Well, I think it's very mechanical, isn't it. It's like 0:07:03.445 --> 0:07:05.245 there's a goal at the end of it. So of 0:07:05.245 --> 0:07:07.645 course it takes all the emotion away, it takes the 0:07:07.725 --> 0:07:08.565 enjoyment away. 0:07:09.445 --> 0:07:13.045 Lake. I say, speaking from experience, it's very very blak. 0:07:13.165 --> 0:07:17.245 It's like doing your taxes. But also if you are 0:07:17.285 --> 0:07:20.325 desperate to get pregnant, as I was when it wasn't working, 0:07:20.685 --> 0:07:26.045 you're also just incredibly emotional, and yeah, it's deeply unpleasant. 0:07:26.445 --> 0:07:27.085 Was it that for you? 0:07:27.445 --> 0:07:30.605 It wasn't deeply unpleasant because I think the emotions weren't there, 0:07:30.605 --> 0:07:32.605 and I think it was a mechanical thing. It was 0:07:32.645 --> 0:07:34.125 something we knew we had to do, and we had 0:07:34.165 --> 0:07:35.765 to do it on this date and we had to 0:07:35.845 --> 0:07:39.565 quickly make sure that we never missed it. But for me, 0:07:40.445 --> 0:07:43.045 there was never the emotional side to it. And then 0:07:43.085 --> 0:07:46.965 every month when my period came, I didn't have that 0:07:47.325 --> 0:07:51.165 crushing sort of devastation. So every time I went to 0:07:51.205 --> 0:07:52.725 the toilet and it was like, oh, you know, you 0:07:52.765 --> 0:07:55.445 see the spot of blood, it was like fine. And 0:07:55.485 --> 0:07:58.005 I wonder also whether there was a bit of relief 0:07:58.005 --> 0:08:00.645 in it as well. Yeah, you can deceive yourself very well. 0:08:00.685 --> 0:08:03.845 I think sometimes you write a piece a couple of 0:08:03.925 --> 0:08:07.765 years ago saying farewell to motherhood. You started it by writing, 0:08:07.805 --> 0:08:09.485 I always thought I would be a mother, right up 0:08:09.565 --> 0:08:12.205 until the afternoon I walked into my husband's home office 0:08:12.285 --> 0:08:14.685 and told him I no longer wanted to be one. 0:08:15.405 --> 0:08:17.365 Do you remember what you actually said to him. 0:08:17.605 --> 0:08:19.685 I think it was very simple. I think it was 0:08:19.925 --> 0:08:22.405 just I'm not sure I want to be a mother, 0:08:23.165 --> 0:08:26.965 and I remember his response was good, because I'm not 0:08:26.965 --> 0:08:29.285 sure I want to be a father either, So it 0:08:29.325 --> 0:08:30.765 was very simple exchange. 0:08:30.885 --> 0:08:34.805 Well, given you're about to start IVF, this is a 0:08:34.925 --> 0:08:38.245 fairly unexpected time, it would seem from the outside to 0:08:38.285 --> 0:08:42.525 be having that conversation. The decision that you didn't want 0:08:42.565 --> 0:08:45.485 to do it, you wrote it came during an appointment 0:08:46.085 --> 0:08:49.005 with your doctor. Do you remember what happened in that 0:08:49.085 --> 0:08:52.805 appointment and sort of why it became clear to you 0:08:52.885 --> 0:08:55.405 in that moment after so many years of trying. 0:08:55.645 --> 0:08:58.325 Well, I think the moment of clarity was probably in 0:08:58.365 --> 0:09:01.365 that doctor's office, But actually I think there were so 0:09:01.485 --> 0:09:03.245 many things that had led to it. But actually I 0:09:03.285 --> 0:09:05.965 think what it was was she was explaining to me 0:09:06.725 --> 0:09:10.165 the chances of us getting pregnant pretty good, and I 0:09:10.165 --> 0:09:12.165 think she said it was something like forty. 0:09:12.325 --> 0:09:14.045 Forty two percent, she said, and. 0:09:14.045 --> 0:09:17.925 Actually that's really good. But all I was thinking was was, God, 0:09:17.965 --> 0:09:21.805 that's terrible, and actually everything that we will have to 0:09:22.645 --> 0:09:27.005 sacrifice in order to have this relatively in my head 0:09:27.005 --> 0:09:31.165 low probability of getting pregnant. I wasn't sure if I 0:09:31.245 --> 0:09:34.405 was ready for it. Because the other thing about IVF, 0:09:34.765 --> 0:09:36.525 and I'm always very grateful to the women who had 0:09:36.565 --> 0:09:37.885 gone through it, who had told me about this in 0:09:37.885 --> 0:09:39.605 the lead up to it, was they said, you know, 0:09:40.045 --> 0:09:44.165 things will change, your hormones will go crazy, your relationship 0:09:44.245 --> 0:09:48.925 may be a little bit ravaged. And I wasn't sure 0:09:49.165 --> 0:09:51.405 that I was up for the job of doing it. 0:09:51.805 --> 0:09:54.245 And the other point, of course, was that we had 0:09:54.285 --> 0:09:57.045 discussed earlier on that who was going to do the 0:09:57.125 --> 0:10:00.645 chief childcare giving. And actually my husband had said, because 0:10:00.645 --> 0:10:02.325 at that time I was an editor, I was earning 0:10:02.525 --> 0:10:05.125 more than him. He was just sort of making it 0:10:05.165 --> 0:10:06.885 as a writer. He was on the cusp of about 0:10:06.885 --> 0:10:09.285 to make it, and he said, look, I will say 0:10:09.845 --> 0:10:13.045 my career, I'll be the caregiver. And that was another 0:10:13.085 --> 0:10:16.365 thing that I just wasn't sure about that, you know, 0:10:16.445 --> 0:10:18.205 he was sort of going to give up on this 0:10:18.285 --> 0:10:21.245 thing that he was about to break into for something 0:10:21.285 --> 0:10:25.125 that I wasn't sure that I particularly wanted, and I 0:10:25.245 --> 0:10:28.245 was actually not a high probability. Of course, it's actually 0:10:28.285 --> 0:10:30.485 pretty high forty two percent. But at the time I 0:10:30.485 --> 0:10:32.445 thought all of this that we have to give up 0:10:33.005 --> 0:10:34.725 and actually there will not be a child at the 0:10:34.805 --> 0:10:36.765 end of it, and I wasn't really ready to do it. 0:10:37.165 --> 0:10:39.445 Did you have a blueprint for what of life without 0:10:39.525 --> 0:10:42.605 kids in it might look like? Did you have friends 0:10:42.725 --> 0:10:45.845 or anyone in your world who didn't have kids, who 0:10:45.845 --> 0:10:48.805 were around your age, or who didn't want kids. 0:10:48.605 --> 0:10:52.805 Not that I knew intimately. The only blueprints that I 0:10:52.845 --> 0:10:55.605 had actually growing up were there were two men that 0:10:55.605 --> 0:10:57.445 we used to live next to, called Roy and reg 0:10:57.645 --> 0:11:00.365 and they were a married, same sex couple, and obviously 0:11:00.365 --> 0:11:02.365 they didn't have children, and I think, I mean, this 0:11:02.405 --> 0:11:03.645 is in the eighties. I'm not even sure they had 0:11:03.645 --> 0:11:06.165 come out. They lived next door to us, and obviously 0:11:06.285 --> 0:11:08.045 children were not a part of their life, although they 0:11:08.085 --> 0:11:10.405 were lovely to us children and they were really wonderful, 0:11:10.765 --> 0:11:13.045 and I remember they had this wonderful home and this 0:11:13.205 --> 0:11:17.485 perfect garden, and they seemed to have this incredible relationship. 0:11:17.525 --> 0:11:19.725 Obviously we knew that, you know that they were together, 0:11:20.525 --> 0:11:22.245 and then up the road. Further up the road where 0:11:22.285 --> 0:11:25.245 we lived, there was a lady called missus Jenkins who 0:11:25.365 --> 0:11:29.565 was in her eighties, and I think she didn't have children, 0:11:29.605 --> 0:11:31.845 But when I remember her, she was alone. She was 0:11:31.885 --> 0:11:34.685 by herself. She was a spinster. I think perhaps she'd 0:11:34.685 --> 0:11:36.405 lost her husband. I can't remember, but the point was 0:11:36.445 --> 0:11:39.125 she was a single woman. She was eighty and she 0:11:39.165 --> 0:11:41.325 would come to our house sort of every couple of weeks, 0:11:41.325 --> 0:11:43.165 and she would tell us about these she'd been traveling 0:11:43.165 --> 0:11:45.685 around the world. She still had her gusto for life, 0:11:45.805 --> 0:11:49.005 and she was probably without her realizing it was sort 0:11:49.045 --> 0:11:53.005 of a real role model of what, you know, a 0:11:53.205 --> 0:11:56.845 rich life to down the line could look like. And 0:11:56.885 --> 0:11:58.725 it's interesting that there never seemed to be children as 0:11:58.765 --> 0:12:01.725 part of that equation. She went by herself, she traveled alone, 0:12:01.925 --> 0:12:04.565 but she still loved children. You know, she was a 0:12:04.645 --> 0:12:07.525 wonderful woman to be around, and she really enriched our 0:12:07.565 --> 0:12:09.325 imagination of what the world could look like. 0:12:09.845 --> 0:12:12.125 You wrote that after you and your husband made the 0:12:12.165 --> 0:12:15.245 decision not to have kids, and thankfully you were both 0:12:15.245 --> 0:12:18.685 on the same page. We didn't really talk about it again. 0:12:18.845 --> 0:12:21.365 It was a closed chapter. We moved on but I 0:12:21.445 --> 0:12:23.885 did think about it. I still think about it, and 0:12:23.925 --> 0:12:27.605 I suspect he does too. Did you really not talk 0:12:27.605 --> 0:12:29.725 about it much after that initial conversation. 0:12:30.285 --> 0:12:32.925 Not really, I mean the only times and it's still 0:12:33.005 --> 0:12:37.005 we barely talk about it apart from very occasionally. I 0:12:37.085 --> 0:12:39.725 remember one time Will came home and he'd been on 0:12:39.765 --> 0:12:43.045 the train as well as my husband. Of course, he said, oh, 0:12:43.125 --> 0:12:45.765 I saw a man today and this little girl went 0:12:45.845 --> 0:12:48.605 running towards him and wrapped her arms around him, and 0:12:48.645 --> 0:12:51.525 he said, I felt a real moment of sadness. I 0:12:51.645 --> 0:12:54.165 did have moments, but I actually didn't communicate into Will 0:12:54.165 --> 0:12:57.845 where I would see children on the tube with their 0:12:57.885 --> 0:13:00.285 parents and I would get very teary about it, and 0:13:00.325 --> 0:13:02.085 then it would go. It was sort of like this 0:13:02.525 --> 0:13:05.365 weird and emotion would then come. And I think that 0:13:05.405 --> 0:13:07.365 was actually as I got into my later thirties, when 0:13:07.365 --> 0:13:09.725 I knew that time was passing by and actually, door, 0:13:10.045 --> 0:13:12.045 I say, the door is closing. Of course, people have 0:13:12.125 --> 0:13:14.525 children right up into their fifties now, but for me, 0:13:14.605 --> 0:13:16.365 if we're being honest here, I felt that the door 0:13:16.445 --> 0:13:19.085 was closing. It was a firm decision we made together. 0:13:19.405 --> 0:13:21.845 It was a strong decision. I think The strength of 0:13:21.885 --> 0:13:24.525 the decision is shown by the fact that we didn't 0:13:24.765 --> 0:13:28.285 really ever talk about it again. Will occasionally we'll wake 0:13:28.365 --> 0:13:31.245 up and go, I'm really glad we didn't have children, 0:13:31.525 --> 0:13:35.165 and I turned to, yeah, I'm glad to and it's 0:13:35.245 --> 0:13:39.405 quite a statement to make. But I think the only sadness, 0:13:39.405 --> 0:13:42.565 which of course is a very selfish sadness, is that 0:13:42.645 --> 0:13:46.205 you don't get that sort of genetic combination of the 0:13:46.205 --> 0:13:47.925 two of us. You know, it would have been nice 0:13:47.965 --> 0:13:50.445 to know combination of me and my husband would have 0:13:50.485 --> 0:13:54.125 looked like nothing more. The vision that I always had 0:13:54.125 --> 0:13:58.285 of motherhood, which again is wholly selfish, was having a child, 0:13:58.325 --> 0:14:00.765 maybe when they were eighteen and they were grown up 0:14:00.765 --> 0:14:02.205 and we would spend time together. I used to have 0:14:02.245 --> 0:14:03.565 an image of I would have a child and there 0:14:03.565 --> 0:14:05.645 would be eighteen. I'd go and visit them at university 0:14:05.965 --> 0:14:08.325 and we talked about life. But that was an adult 0:14:08.365 --> 0:14:11.285 really that I was envisiging. There were no other daydreams 0:14:11.325 --> 0:14:14.805 about being a mother apart from that, And of course 0:14:15.405 --> 0:14:17.685 there's no guarantee that I was ever going to get that, 0:14:17.805 --> 0:14:20.205 to have that sort of airship with an eighteen year old, 0:14:20.445 --> 0:14:22.245 So we never really spoke about it. 0:14:22.285 --> 0:14:25.005 Ever again, it's funny when you stop and think about 0:14:25.005 --> 0:14:27.645 the parts of other people's lives that we feel entitled 0:14:27.725 --> 0:14:30.605 to ask about or to weigh in on. You know, 0:14:30.645 --> 0:14:33.005 we ask people what they do for work or if 0:14:33.005 --> 0:14:36.965 they're in a relationship, and we're curious about where someone 0:14:37.045 --> 0:14:39.845 lives or what political party they support, or maybe what 0:14:39.965 --> 0:14:42.605 school they went to. And most of the time these 0:14:42.645 --> 0:14:45.605 are just harmless curiosities and sort of part of being 0:14:45.685 --> 0:14:48.525 human right out in the world and small talk, trying 0:14:48.565 --> 0:14:52.165 to relate or connect to other human beings and kind 0:14:52.205 --> 0:14:55.685 of place them in the filing system of our brains 0:14:55.725 --> 0:14:59.325 and our sort of ideas about who people are. It's 0:14:59.365 --> 0:15:01.885 sort of how we're hardwired to try and understand each other. 0:15:02.205 --> 0:15:04.285 But asking a woman whether she has kids or not, 0:15:05.045 --> 0:15:08.365 or whether she wants kids, that can often be far 0:15:08.405 --> 0:15:12.325 more complicated and just very personal to sort of casually 0:15:12.445 --> 0:15:15.565 wander into as far as territory goes. And you know what, 0:15:15.805 --> 0:15:17.805 as I said before, I've done it, You've done it, 0:15:17.805 --> 0:15:19.885 We've all done it, and I've done it so many 0:15:19.925 --> 0:15:22.925 times and then really regretted it. And as you're about 0:15:22.925 --> 0:15:25.405 to hear from Farah, it's time that we learned to 0:15:25.445 --> 0:15:28.805 tread a little more gently around this topic. I was 0:15:28.845 --> 0:15:35.845 taking notes when she said this part. You two were 0:15:35.965 --> 0:15:38.485 very much on the same page, and fast didn't need 0:15:38.525 --> 0:15:41.965 to talk about it much more, but other people did. 0:15:42.365 --> 0:15:45.925 And reading the two pieces that you wrote on your 0:15:45.965 --> 0:15:50.205 substack a couple of years apart, one about farewelling motherhood 0:15:50.205 --> 0:15:52.445 and the other about how not to be a mother, 0:15:52.885 --> 0:15:54.965 which was towards the end of last year, about what 0:15:55.045 --> 0:15:58.165 life is like on the other side, I was really 0:15:58.205 --> 0:16:01.445 struck about the fact that you must have to come 0:16:01.485 --> 0:16:04.645 out almost in a way, again and again and again 0:16:04.845 --> 0:16:08.245 and talk about this decision that you'd made. You write 0:16:08.365 --> 0:16:11.005 about the dinner party question because you were thirty seven 0:16:11.045 --> 0:16:13.925 when you decided to have kids, which meant you say, 0:16:13.965 --> 0:16:16.365 at dinner parties with strangers, the question of children would 0:16:16.405 --> 0:16:19.845 always come up. What would people say? And was it 0:16:19.885 --> 0:16:22.965 something that you had to sort of steal yourself to 0:16:23.045 --> 0:16:24.165 answer again and again. 0:16:24.645 --> 0:16:26.925 Well, what usually would happen is, obviously I look like 0:16:26.965 --> 0:16:30.285 a woman of a certain age, so people very benignly 0:16:30.325 --> 0:16:32.765 would just say do you have children? In the beginning, 0:16:32.765 --> 0:16:34.805 I used to bristle a little bit because, of course, 0:16:34.845 --> 0:16:37.005 admitting that I didn't have children that I didn't have 0:16:37.085 --> 0:16:39.805 children by choice. What I thought the world would perceive 0:16:39.845 --> 0:16:42.365 that to be was I didn't like children, which is 0:16:42.445 --> 0:16:45.205 very different not wanting children. It's not that I didn't 0:16:45.245 --> 0:16:47.525 want children in my life, which is why that child 0:16:47.525 --> 0:16:49.965 free thing really sort of irks me, because actually I 0:16:50.005 --> 0:16:52.285 really like kids. I spent a lot of my life 0:16:52.325 --> 0:16:53.765 with them. I was a mentor when I was twenty 0:16:53.765 --> 0:16:55.965 six to a young child. I mean, I like kids, 0:16:55.965 --> 0:16:57.645 but I didn't want to be a mother, and I 0:16:57.645 --> 0:17:00.845 think that was the difference. But yeah, when people would say, look, 0:17:00.845 --> 0:17:02.405 do you have children, and then I would say no, 0:17:03.165 --> 0:17:05.005 I think they didn't quite know how to do a 0:17:05.045 --> 0:17:07.885 follow up. So what would happen is I would always 0:17:07.885 --> 0:17:10.565 just volunteer the whole story, and then of course people 0:17:10.565 --> 0:17:13.285 look slightly ill at ease because it was like, well, 0:17:13.285 --> 0:17:16.125 what's this person trying to justify their decision not to 0:17:16.125 --> 0:17:18.845 have children. So in the early days, when people would 0:17:18.845 --> 0:17:21.685 ask me that question, do you have children? I would 0:17:21.685 --> 0:17:23.965 then go no, and then I would explain to them why. 0:17:24.765 --> 0:17:27.725 But as I got older, I didn't feel that I 0:17:27.845 --> 0:17:30.885 needed to anymore. So I think I was lucky in that, 0:17:31.005 --> 0:17:35.165 you know, my parents and my in laws have been 0:17:35.245 --> 0:17:37.325 very cool about the whole thing. Obviously they would like 0:17:37.365 --> 0:17:39.805 it if we'd have had children, they'd be grandparents, of course, 0:17:40.525 --> 0:17:43.245 But you know, we're a generation that we're told you 0:17:43.325 --> 0:17:45.285 have choices to how you live your life, and of 0:17:45.325 --> 0:17:47.485 course both sets of parents have been very true to that. 0:17:47.485 --> 0:17:48.565 Their respect to the decision. 0:17:48.645 --> 0:17:50.325 Not that they had a lot of choice. 0:17:50.085 --> 0:17:52.645 No, they had any choice. No, they were very good. 0:17:52.725 --> 0:17:55.965 They didn't really prod and my father is Asian. For him, 0:17:56.005 --> 0:17:58.405 it's a really big thing for you not to have children. 0:17:58.445 --> 0:18:00.685 Do they have any other grandchildren on each side? 0:18:01.085 --> 0:18:03.085 Just one? I mean there's four of us, but there's 0:18:03.205 --> 0:18:05.325 just one, and actually one coming on the way, so 0:18:05.365 --> 0:18:06.805 actually there'll be two grandchildren. 0:18:06.965 --> 0:18:08.725 And what about a near it with your in laws? 0:18:08.725 --> 0:18:10.205 Do they have any grandchildren? 0:18:10.405 --> 0:18:12.925 They all have children? Yeah, so everybody again will is 0:18:12.965 --> 0:18:16.805 one of four and everybody okay, who will Yeah. 0:18:16.565 --> 0:18:19.405 I've just become a grandmother. I think I would find 0:18:19.445 --> 0:18:23.405 it a lot easier to be magnanimous if I had 0:18:23.405 --> 0:18:26.325 at least one, which is can be entirely selfish, do 0:18:26.365 --> 0:18:29.285 you know what I mean? Like completely selfish. But I'm 0:18:29.365 --> 0:18:32.445 happy for them that they didn't have to project all 0:18:32.485 --> 0:18:34.005 of that onto you and Will. 0:18:34.165 --> 0:18:34.605 That's right. 0:18:34.685 --> 0:18:37.205 They got that satisfied elsewhere. If in fact they even 0:18:37.205 --> 0:18:39.405 wanted to become grandparents, maybe they did not want to 0:18:39.405 --> 0:18:40.005 speak for them. 0:18:40.165 --> 0:18:42.085 I think that's right, and I think both me and 0:18:42.125 --> 0:18:44.405 Will are middle children, so I think you're right. The pressure, 0:18:44.485 --> 0:18:47.165 it's the beauty of being a middle child. The pressure 0:18:47.365 --> 0:18:48.605 taken off us completely. 0:18:48.845 --> 0:18:51.525 Finally, there's a good thing about being a middle The 0:18:51.925 --> 0:18:52.565 most pressure. 0:18:52.845 --> 0:18:55.605 I used to find that older people when we used 0:18:55.605 --> 0:18:56.965 to live we used to live in this very small 0:18:57.005 --> 0:18:59.205 village in England and it was mainly populated by people 0:18:59.205 --> 0:19:01.845 who are much older, and they would often pry a 0:19:01.845 --> 0:19:06.365 little bit more, why children, life is long? You know, 0:19:06.405 --> 0:19:07.965 you need to think about that, you need to think 0:19:08.005 --> 0:19:10.965 about purpose. They would do it in a very nice way. 0:19:10.965 --> 0:19:12.725 I mean, you know, I have to say, I don't 0:19:12.845 --> 0:19:15.285 think from my recollection there's anybody who has really insulted 0:19:15.325 --> 0:19:17.725 me about it, but there was always and I always 0:19:17.765 --> 0:19:20.765 felt it was well meaning. But most of the people 0:19:20.845 --> 0:19:24.125 who were in their sort of dotage would often say, 0:19:24.245 --> 0:19:27.885 you know, life is long, and think about it carefully. 0:19:27.645 --> 0:19:30.445 Which is kind of condescending or passive aggressive in a way, 0:19:30.525 --> 0:19:33.205 like you're very gracious to say, giving them the benefit 0:19:33.205 --> 0:19:35.005 of the doubt they were well meaning, and I'm sure 0:19:35.045 --> 0:19:37.605 they were. But it's interesting, and I know I've done 0:19:37.645 --> 0:19:41.485 this myself. When someone says they don't want to have kids, 0:19:41.885 --> 0:19:46.325 I can sometimes go into almost campaign mode, as if 0:19:46.325 --> 0:19:49.565