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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mother and Me a podcast Mama

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Speaker 1: Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that

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Speaker 1: this podcast is recorded on for MoMA me, Or you're

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Speaker 1: listening to no filter. My name's Mia Friedman and my

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Speaker 1: voice was a little bit croky, but bear with me

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Speaker 1: because this is a really interesting episode. I always knew

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Speaker 1: I was going to have kids.

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Speaker 2: But if you were a girl or a woman who

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Speaker 2: doesn't think she wants to have kids, where are your

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Speaker 2: role models for what your life could look like? Because

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Speaker 2: portrayals of happy mums and just actually mums are everywhere,

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Speaker 2: but rarely do we see women who choose not to

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Speaker 2: have children shown in a positive light. Even in this

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Speaker 2: year of Our Lord twenty twenty four, a woman over

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Speaker 2: thirty five who doesn't have kids is viewed with what

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Speaker 2: is it like?

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Speaker 3: Pity?

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Speaker 2: Suspicion, confusion, apprehension maybe, And if that's you, if you're

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Speaker 2: one of those women who for whatever reason doesn't have kids,

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Speaker 2: you're forced to deal with some pretty nosy and frankly

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Speaker 2: rude questions. Why don't you have them? Do you want kids?

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Speaker 2: Don't you like kids? Have you chosen ambition over motherhood?

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Speaker 2: Have you put your work and your career before family.

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Speaker 2: We'll look after you when you're old. Aren't you worried

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Speaker 2: about dying alone? Have you thought about adopting? What about

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Speaker 2: ec donation? It's never too late or surrogate. Be sure

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Speaker 2: you won't change your mind, and I bet you'll change

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Speaker 2: your mind. It's pretty brutal the questions that you get

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Speaker 2: asked if you don't have kids. And I am going

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Speaker 2: to admit I'm guilty of asking some of those questions

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Speaker 2: and saying some of those things myself. Now I'm careful

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Speaker 2: who I say them to. Because the thing is, the

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Speaker 2: thing that I've learned is because we all know women

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Speaker 2: who don't have children, even though they really wanted them,

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Speaker 2: because maybe they had fertility issues, or maybe they just

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Speaker 2: didn't meet the right person at the right time, and

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Speaker 2: now that window and that choice is not available to them.

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Speaker 2: And for those people, those women, it's an incredibly fraught

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Speaker 2: topic and a really distressing one at times, because they

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Speaker 2: really wanted to be a mother, or maybe they thought

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Speaker 2: they would be a mother and it just wasn't their

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Speaker 2: choice not to be one. But there are more and

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Speaker 2: more women who aren't child free by circumstance. They're child

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Speaker 2: free by choice. And this seems to bring up a

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Speaker 2: whole lot of weird feelings in people who feel like

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Speaker 2: it's their job to convince everyone to procreate. And I

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Speaker 2: don't even know why this is, But when I was

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Speaker 2: thinking about this episode, I started making a list in

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Speaker 2: my head of all the famous women I could think

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Speaker 2: of who didn't have kids. And I thought of Glorious

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Speaker 2: Steinem and Julie Bishop and Elizabeth Gilbert and Julia Gillard,

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Speaker 2: all of whom I've interviewed on this show. Actually, Jennifer

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Speaker 2: Aniston and Renees Elwigger, Angela Merkele, Kylie Minogue, Tracy Ellis Ross,

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Speaker 2: Chelsea Handler, Kamala Harris, the Vice President. These are women

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Speaker 2: who've accomplished and are still accomplishing so much. They're living

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Speaker 2: very fulfilling lives without children, and so many women are,

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Speaker 2: and yet as a society we still don't really know

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Speaker 2: not just how to accept that some women don't want children,

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Speaker 2: but that some women celebrate it. And if the women

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Speaker 2: are listed, we don't know how many of those women

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Speaker 2: are child free or childless, because there's kind of a difference,

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Speaker 2: is in't there? We don't know how many of them

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Speaker 2: actually chose not to have kids. But instead of pichying

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Speaker 2: those women or viewing their lives as somehow less than

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Speaker 2: the lives of women who are mothers, today you're going

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Speaker 2: to hear a different story. Farrest Daw celebrates her life

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Speaker 2: and she's proud of her choice to be a non parent,

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Speaker 2: which makes it sound like she wears some kind of

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Speaker 2: badge going I don't have kids, I'm so proud, or

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Speaker 2: that she organizes parades. That's not true. But she prefers

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Speaker 2: the term non parent because she says child less makes

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Speaker 2: it sound like her life is lacking, which she says

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Speaker 2: it's not. And she says child free makes it seem

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Speaker 2: like she doesn't like kids, and she does. You're going

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Speaker 2: to hear more about all of that in a minute now.

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Speaker 2: Throughout her career, Fara has worn many hats. She was

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Speaker 2: a journalist before she became the founding editor of Women's

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Speaker 2: Health magazine in the UK, she was the editor of

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Speaker 2: Cosmo and Elle, and today she works for Substak, which

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Speaker 2: is a newsletter platform, and she also writes her own

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Speaker 2: essays on Substak called Things Worth Knowing. I'm excited about

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Speaker 2: bringing you this conversation today because now at forty five,

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Speaker 2: ten years after she and her husband officially decided to

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Speaker 2: stop trying to have kids. Fara is offering us a

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Speaker 2: much fuller, more optimistic, and positive picture of what choosing

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Speaker 2: a life as a non parent can look like. Is

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Speaker 2: now one of those role models. Here's my conversation with Firestorm.

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Speaker 2: How long had you been trying to get pregnant and

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Speaker 2: how old were you at the time.

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Speaker 3: So I was thirty six at the time, and we

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Speaker 3: had been trying maybe for about three years, I think

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Speaker 3: three or four years. But you know, when I say trying,

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Speaker 3: I also think that the signs were there. You know,

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Speaker 3: my husband had brought me all these fertility monitors, and

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Speaker 3: I remember he found it one time and he went, far,

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Speaker 3: it's got dust on it, And so all the sort

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Speaker 3: of signs were there. Really that even though we were

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Speaker 3: sort of doing everything right, you know, we were having

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Speaker 3: sex when we knew we had to have sex, and

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Speaker 3: I was occasionally using the fertility monitor. You know, I

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Speaker 3: was looking after my body. I was making sure I

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Speaker 3: was in the best shape of my life. But really

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Speaker 3: the sort of dedication I think it needed when I

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Speaker 3: look back now, it probably wasn't quite there to the

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Speaker 3: degree that I see other women dedicated to the pursuit

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Speaker 3: of motherhood and having a child.

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Speaker 2: Well, you were actually doing a lot though exactly phoning

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Speaker 2: it in, right, I mean, I.

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Speaker 3: Did so much. I went on these crazy fasts. I

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Speaker 3: went to see this woman who was like, you know,

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Speaker 3: she was like the European expert on fertility, you aren't.

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Speaker 2: Finding it in No.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I'm pretty good at when I set my

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Speaker 3: mind on something, I go after it. So I was

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Speaker 3: doing all the things that I thought you should do,

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Speaker 3: but yet behind the scenes, when it was sort of

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Speaker 3: left to my own devices, you know, dusty fertility monitor,

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Speaker 3: I think there was this sort of ray ambivalence behind

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Speaker 3: it all, but the big sort of show of I'm

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Speaker 3: really trying really hard to get pregnant everyone. I definitely

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Speaker 3: do all that to the signs and signals that I

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Speaker 3: wanted to have a family. Suit that with some gusto.

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Speaker 2: For those who haven't experienced the very specific misery of

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Speaker 2: conception sex when you're trying to get pregnant, what are

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Speaker 2: your memories of that type of sex without you know,

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Speaker 2: wanting to pry too much?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think it's very mechanical, isn't it. It's like

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Speaker 3: there's a goal at the end of it. So of

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Speaker 3: course it takes all the emotion away, it takes the

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Speaker 3: enjoyment away.

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Speaker 2: Lake. I say, speaking from experience, it's very very blak.

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Speaker 2: It's like doing your taxes. But also if you are

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Speaker 2: desperate to get pregnant, as I was when it wasn't working,

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Speaker 2: you're also just incredibly emotional, and yeah, it's deeply unpleasant.

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Speaker 2: Was it that for you?

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Speaker 3: It wasn't deeply unpleasant because I think the emotions weren't there,

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Speaker 3: and I think it was a mechanical thing. It was

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Speaker 3: something we knew we had to do, and we had

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Speaker 3: to do it on this date and we had to

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Speaker 3: quickly make sure that we never missed it. But for me,

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Speaker 3: there was never the emotional side to it. And then

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Speaker 3: every month when my period came, I didn't have that

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Speaker 3: crushing sort of devastation. So every time I went to

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Speaker 3: the toilet and it was like, oh, you know, you

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Speaker 3: see the spot of blood, it was like fine. And

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Speaker 3: I wonder also whether there was a bit of relief

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Speaker 3: in it as well. Yeah, you can deceive yourself very well.

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Speaker 2: I think sometimes you write a piece a couple of

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Speaker 2: years ago saying farewell to motherhood. You started it by writing,

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Speaker 2: I always thought I would be a mother, right up

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Speaker 2: until the afternoon I walked into my husband's home office

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Speaker 2: and told him I no longer wanted to be one.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember what you actually said to him.

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Speaker 3: I think it was very simple. I think it was

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Speaker 3: just I'm not sure I want to be a mother,

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Speaker 3: and I remember his response was good, because I'm not

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Speaker 3: sure I want to be a father either, So it

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Speaker 3: was very simple exchange.

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Speaker 2: Well, given you're about to start IVF, this is a

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Speaker 2: fairly unexpected time, it would seem from the outside to

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Speaker 2: be having that conversation. The decision that you didn't want

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Speaker 2: to do it, you wrote it came during an appointment

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Speaker 2: with your doctor. Do you remember what happened in that

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Speaker 2: appointment and sort of why it became clear to you

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Speaker 2: in that moment after so many years of trying.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think the moment of clarity was probably in

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Speaker 3: that doctor's office, But actually I think there were so

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Speaker 3: many things that had led to it. But actually I

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Speaker 3: think what it was was she was explaining to me

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Speaker 3: the chances of us getting pregnant pretty good, and I

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Speaker 3: think she said it was something like forty.

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Speaker 2: Forty two percent, she said, and.

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Speaker 3: Actually that's really good. But all I was thinking was was, God,

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Speaker 3: that's terrible, and actually everything that we will have to

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Speaker 3: sacrifice in order to have this relatively in my head

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Speaker 3: low probability of getting pregnant. I wasn't sure if I

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Speaker 3: was ready for it. Because the other thing about IVF,

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Speaker 3: and I'm always very grateful to the women who had

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Speaker 3: gone through it, who had told me about this in

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Speaker 3: the lead up to it, was they said, you know,

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Speaker 3: things will change, your hormones will go crazy, your relationship

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Speaker 3: may be a little bit ravaged. And I wasn't sure

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Speaker 3: that I was up for the job of doing it.

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Speaker 3: And the other point, of course, was that we had

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Speaker 3: discussed earlier on that who was going to do the

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Speaker 3: chief childcare giving. And actually my husband had said, because

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Speaker 3: at that time I was an editor, I was earning

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Speaker 3: more than him. He was just sort of making it

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Speaker 3: as a writer. He was on the cusp of about

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Speaker 3: to make it, and he said, look, I will say

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Speaker 3: my career, I'll be the caregiver. And that was another

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Speaker 3: thing that I just wasn't sure about that, you know,

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Speaker 3: he was sort of going to give up on this

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Speaker 3: thing that he was about to break into for something

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Speaker 3: that I wasn't sure that I particularly wanted, and I

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Speaker 3: was actually not a high probability. Of course, it's actually

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Speaker 3: pretty high forty two percent. But at the time I

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Speaker 3: thought all of this that we have to give up

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Speaker 3: and actually there will not be a child at the

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Speaker 3: end of it, and I wasn't really ready to do it.

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Speaker 2: Did you have a blueprint for what of life without

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Speaker 2: kids in it might look like? Did you have friends

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Speaker 2: or anyone in your world who didn't have kids, who

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Speaker 2: were around your age, or who didn't want kids.

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Speaker 3: Not that I knew intimately. The only blueprints that I

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Speaker 3: had actually growing up were there were two men that

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Speaker 3: we used to live next to, called Roy and reg

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Speaker 3: and they were a married, same sex couple, and obviously

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Speaker 3: they didn't have children, and I think, I mean, this

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Speaker 3: is in the eighties. I'm not even sure they had

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Speaker 3: come out. They lived next door to us, and obviously

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Speaker 3: children were not a part of their life, although they

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Speaker 3: were lovely to us children and they were really wonderful,

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Speaker 3: and I remember they had this wonderful home and this

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Speaker 3: perfect garden, and they seemed to have this incredible relationship.

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Speaker 3: Obviously we knew that, you know that they were together,

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Speaker 3: and then up the road. Further up the road where

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Speaker 3: we lived, there was a lady called missus Jenkins who

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Speaker 3: was in her eighties, and I think she didn't have children,

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Speaker 3: But when I remember her, she was alone. She was

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Speaker 3: by herself. She was a spinster. I think perhaps she'd

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Speaker 3: lost her husband. I can't remember, but the point was

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Speaker 3: she was a single woman. She was eighty and she

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Speaker 3: would come to our house sort of every couple of weeks,

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Speaker 3: and she would tell us about these she'd been traveling

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Speaker 3: around the world. She still had her gusto for life,

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Speaker 3: and she was probably without her realizing it was sort

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Speaker 3: of a real role model of what, you know, a

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Speaker 3: rich life to down the line could look like. And

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Speaker 3: it's interesting that there never seemed to be children as

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Speaker 3: part of that equation. She went by herself, she traveled alone,

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Speaker 3: but she still loved children. You know, she was a

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Speaker 3: wonderful woman to be around, and she really enriched our

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Speaker 3: imagination of what the world could look like.

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Speaker 2: You wrote that after you and your husband made the

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Speaker 2: decision not to have kids, and thankfully you were both

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Speaker 2: on the same page. We didn't really talk about it again.

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Speaker 2: It was a closed chapter. We moved on but I

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Speaker 2: did think about it. I still think about it, and

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Speaker 2: I suspect he does too. Did you really not talk

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Speaker 2: about it much after that initial conversation.

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Speaker 3: Not really, I mean the only times and it's still

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Speaker 3: we barely talk about it apart from very occasionally. I

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Speaker 3: remember one time Will came home and he'd been on

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Speaker 3: the train as well as my husband. Of course, he said, oh,

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Speaker 3: I saw a man today and this little girl went

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Speaker 3: running towards him and wrapped her arms around him, and

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Speaker 3: he said, I felt a real moment of sadness. I

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Speaker 3: did have moments, but I actually didn't communicate into Will

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Speaker 3: where I would see children on the tube with their

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Speaker 3: parents and I would get very teary about it, and

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Speaker 3: then it would go. It was sort of like this

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Speaker 3: weird and emotion would then come. And I think that

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Speaker 3: was actually as I got into my later thirties, when

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Speaker 3: I knew that time was passing by and actually, door,

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Speaker 3: I say, the door is closing. Of course, people have

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Speaker 3: children right up into their fifties now, but for me,

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Speaker 3: if we're being honest here, I felt that the door

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Speaker 3: was closing. It was a firm decision we made together.

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Speaker 3: It was a strong decision. I think The strength of

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Speaker 3: the decision is shown by the fact that we didn't

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Speaker 3: really ever talk about it again. Will occasionally we'll wake

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Speaker 3: up and go, I'm really glad we didn't have children,

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Speaker 3: and I turned to, yeah, I'm glad to and it's

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Speaker 3: quite a statement to make. But I think the only sadness,

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Speaker 3: which of course is a very selfish sadness, is that

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Speaker 3: you don't get that sort of genetic combination of the

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Speaker 3: two of us. You know, it would have been nice

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Speaker 3: to know combination of me and my husband would have

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Speaker 3: looked like nothing more. The vision that I always had

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Speaker 3: of motherhood, which again is wholly selfish, was having a child,

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Speaker 3: maybe when they were eighteen and they were grown up

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Speaker 3: and we would spend time together. I used to have

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Speaker 3: an image of I would have a child and there

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Speaker 3: would be eighteen. I'd go and visit them at university

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Speaker 3: and we talked about life. But that was an adult

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Speaker 3: really that I was envisiging. There were no other daydreams

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Speaker 3: about being a mother apart from that, And of course

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Speaker 3: there's no guarantee that I was ever going to get that,

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Speaker 3: to have that sort of airship with an eighteen year old,

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Speaker 3: So we never really spoke about it.

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Speaker 2: Ever again, it's funny when you stop and think about

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Speaker 2: the parts of other people's lives that we feel entitled

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Speaker 2: to ask about or to weigh in on. You know,

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Speaker 2: we ask people what they do for work or if

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Speaker 2: they're in a relationship, and we're curious about where someone

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Speaker 2: lives or what political party they support, or maybe what

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Speaker 2: school they went to. And most of the time these

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Speaker 2: are just harmless curiosities and sort of part of being

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Speaker 2: human right out in the world and small talk, trying

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Speaker 2: to relate or connect to other human beings and kind

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Speaker 2: of place them in the filing system of our brains

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Speaker 2: and our sort of ideas about who people are. It's

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Speaker 2: sort of how we're hardwired to try and understand each other.

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Speaker 2: But asking a woman whether she has kids or not,

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Speaker 2: or whether she wants kids, that can often be far

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Speaker 2: more complicated and just very personal to sort of casually

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Speaker 2: wander into as far as territory goes. And you know what,

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Speaker 2: as I said before, I've done it, You've done it,

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Speaker 2: We've all done it, and I've done it so many

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Speaker 2: times and then really regretted it. And as you're about

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Speaker 2: to hear from Farah, it's time that we learned to

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Speaker 2: tread a little more gently around this topic. I was

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Speaker 2: taking notes when she said this part. You two were

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Speaker 2: very much on the same page, and fast didn't need

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Speaker 2: to talk about it much more, but other people did.

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Speaker 2: And reading the two pieces that you wrote on your

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Speaker 2: substack a couple of years apart, one about farewelling motherhood

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Speaker 2: and the other about how not to be a mother,

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Speaker 2: which was towards the end of last year, about what

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Speaker 2: life is like on the other side, I was really

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Speaker 2: struck about the fact that you must have to come

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Speaker 2: out almost in a way, again and again and again

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Speaker 2: and talk about this decision that you'd made. You write

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Speaker 2: about the dinner party question because you were thirty seven

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Speaker 2: when you decided to have kids, which meant you say,

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Speaker 2: at dinner parties with strangers, the question of children would

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Speaker 2: always come up. What would people say? And was it

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Speaker 2: something that you had to sort of steal yourself to

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Speaker 2: answer again and again.

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Speaker 3: Well, what usually would happen is, obviously I look like

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Speaker 3: a woman of a certain age, so people very benignly

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Speaker 3: would just say do you have children? In the beginning,

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Speaker 3: I used to bristle a little bit because, of course,

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Speaker 3: admitting that I didn't have children that I didn't have

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Speaker 3: children by choice. What I thought the world would perceive

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Speaker 3: that to be was I didn't like children, which is

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Speaker 3: very different not wanting children. It's not that I didn't

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Speaker 3: want children in my life, which is why that child

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Speaker 3: free thing really sort of irks me, because actually I

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Speaker 3: really like kids. I spent a lot of my life

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Speaker 3: with them. I was a mentor when I was twenty

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Speaker 3: six to a young child. I mean, I like kids,

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Speaker 3: but I didn't want to be a mother, and I

335
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Speaker 3: think that was the difference. But yeah, when people would say, look,

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Speaker 3: do you have children, and then I would say no,

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Speaker 3: I think they didn't quite know how to do a

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Speaker 3: follow up. So what would happen is I would always

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Speaker 3: just volunteer the whole story, and then of course people

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Speaker 3: look slightly ill at ease because it was like, well,

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Speaker 3: what's this person trying to justify their decision not to

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Speaker 3: have children. So in the early days, when people would

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Speaker 3: ask me that question, do you have children? I would

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Speaker 3: then go no, and then I would explain to them why.

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Speaker 3: But as I got older, I didn't feel that I

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Speaker 3: needed to anymore. So I think I was lucky in that,

347
00:17:31,005 --> 00:17:35,165
Speaker 3: you know, my parents and my in laws have been

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Speaker 3: very cool about the whole thing. Obviously they would like

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Speaker 3: it if we'd have had children, they'd be grandparents, of course,

350
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Speaker 3: But you know, we're a generation that we're told you

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Speaker 3: have choices to how you live your life, and of

352
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Speaker 3: course both sets of parents have been very true to that.

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Speaker 3: Their respect to the decision.

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Speaker 2: Not that they had a lot of choice.

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Speaker 3: No, they had any choice. No, they were very good.

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Speaker 3: They didn't really prod and my father is Asian. For him,

357
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Speaker 3: it's a really big thing for you not to have children.

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Speaker 2: Do they have any other grandchildren on each side?

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Speaker 3: Just one? I mean there's four of us, but there's

360
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Speaker 3: just one, and actually one coming on the way, so

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Speaker 3: actually there'll be two grandchildren.

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Speaker 2: And what about a near it with your in laws?

363
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Speaker 2: Do they have any grandchildren?

364
00:18:10,405 --> 00:18:12,925
Speaker 3: They all have children? Yeah, so everybody again will is

365
00:18:12,965 --> 00:18:16,805
Speaker 3: one of four and everybody okay, who will Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I've just become a grandmother. I think I would find

367
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Speaker 2: it a lot easier to be magnanimous if I had

368
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Speaker 2: at least one, which is can be entirely selfish, do

369
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Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Like completely selfish. But I'm

370
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Speaker 2: happy for them that they didn't have to project all

371
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Speaker 2: of that onto you and Will.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 2: They got that satisfied elsewhere. If in fact they even

374
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Speaker 2: wanted to become grandparents, maybe they did not want to

375
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Speaker 2: speak for them.

376
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Speaker 3: I think that's right, and I think both me and

377
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Speaker 3: Will are middle children, so I think you're right. The pressure,

378
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Speaker 3: it's the beauty of being a middle child. The pressure

379
00:18:47,365 --> 00:18:48,605
Speaker 3: taken off us completely.

380
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Speaker 2: Finally, there's a good thing about being a middle The

381
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Speaker 2: most pressure.

382
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Speaker 3: I used to find that older people when we used

383
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Speaker 3: to live we used to live in this very small

384
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Speaker 3: village in England and it was mainly populated by people

385
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Speaker 3: who are much older, and they would often pry a

386
00:19:01,845 --> 00:19:06,365
Speaker 3: little bit more, why children, life is long? You know,

387
00:19:06,405 --> 00:19:07,965
Speaker 3: you need to think about that, you need to think

388
00:19:08,005 --> 00:19:10,965
Speaker 3: about purpose. They would do it in a very nice way.

389
00:19:10,965 --> 00:19:12,725
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I have to say, I don't

390
00:19:12,845 --> 00:19:15,285
Speaker 3: think from my recollection there's anybody who has really insulted

391
00:19:15,325 --> 00:19:17,725
Speaker 3: me about it, but there was always and I always

392
00:19:17,765 --> 00:19:20,765
Speaker 3: felt it was well meaning. But most of the people

393
00:19:20,845 --> 00:19:24,125
Speaker 3: who were in their sort of dotage would often say,

394
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Speaker 3: you know, life is long, and think about it carefully.

395
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Speaker 2: Which is kind of condescending or passive aggressive in a way,

396
00:19:30,525 --> 00:19:33,205
Speaker 2: like you're very gracious to say, giving them the benefit

397
00:19:33,205 --> 00:19:35,005
Speaker 2: of the doubt they were well meaning, and I'm sure

398
00:19:35,045 --> 00:19:37,605
Speaker 2: they were. But it's interesting, and I know I've done

399
00:19:37,645 --> 00:19:41,485
Speaker 2: this myself. When someone says they don't want to have kids,

400
00:19:41,885 --> 00:19:46,325
Speaker 2: I can sometimes go into almost campaign mode, as if

401
00:19:46,325 --> 00:19:49,565
Speaker 2: I want you to vote for team having children, and

402
00:19:49,645 --> 00:19:52,765
Speaker 2: I somehow need to persuade you to vote for my

403
00:19:52,925 --> 00:19:56,845
Speaker 2: team because you've also had that experience right where people

404
00:19:56,925 --> 00:20:01,125
Speaker 2: somehow take it as either a challenge or an implied

405
00:20:01,205 --> 00:20:05,405
Speaker 2: judgment that their life isn't great with kids.

406
00:20:05,765 --> 00:20:07,845
Speaker 3: They can be an implied judgment that's right, is that

407
00:20:07,885 --> 00:20:12,445
Speaker 3: you will have an emptier life essentially, and I definitely have.

408
00:20:12,725 --> 00:20:14,885
Speaker 3: I mean, I try to always sort of see the best.

409
00:20:14,925 --> 00:20:17,525
Speaker 3: But yes, that is the implication, which is you need

410
00:20:17,565 --> 00:20:20,405
Speaker 3: to think carefully because what's going to happen when you're older.

411
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Speaker 3: But I suppose I had so thoroughly dissected the decision.

412
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Speaker 3: One of the things that really stood with me was somebody,

413
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Speaker 3: and I can't remember it was, but they said to

414
00:20:31,205 --> 00:20:34,885
Speaker 3: me quite rightly, there is no guarantee, neither should there be,

415
00:20:35,365 --> 00:20:37,005
Speaker 3: that your children are going to be there for you

416
00:20:37,045 --> 00:20:39,725
Speaker 3: and your dotage, and you should never expect that that

417
00:20:39,845 --> 00:20:41,805
Speaker 3: was the feedback I would give to people, which is,

418
00:20:42,365 --> 00:20:44,205
Speaker 3: there are so many people I know who barely speak

419
00:20:44,205 --> 00:20:46,405
Speaker 3: to their parents or they've phoned their parents farely and

420
00:20:46,445 --> 00:20:49,365
Speaker 3: actually old age without a child in it. You can

421
00:20:49,485 --> 00:20:51,125
Speaker 3: have a family and you might still not have your

422
00:20:51,205 --> 00:20:52,165
Speaker 3: children in your life.

423
00:20:52,445 --> 00:20:54,365
Speaker 2: Yeah, or they could move over the other side of

424
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Speaker 2: the world.

425
00:20:55,045 --> 00:20:57,925
Speaker 3: That's absolutely right. So yes, I think that's right, and

426
00:20:57,965 --> 00:21:00,325
Speaker 3: I think it will make some people feel uncomfortable because

427
00:21:00,365 --> 00:21:02,965
Speaker 3: if you're choosing not to have children, they see it

428
00:21:03,005 --> 00:21:05,245
Speaker 3: as a judgment somehow on the life that they've chosen

429
00:21:05,285 --> 00:21:05,605
Speaker 3: to live.

430
00:21:05,805 --> 00:21:08,645
Speaker 2: Of course, on social media, you've got some lovely feedback

431
00:21:08,725 --> 00:21:12,405
Speaker 2: whenever you write about it, including the question that you

432
00:21:12,445 --> 00:21:15,485
Speaker 2: said you mainly got on social media, which is, aren't

433
00:21:15,525 --> 00:21:18,885
Speaker 2: you worried about being lonely later in life? Or as

434
00:21:18,885 --> 00:21:21,165
Speaker 2: it was put on Twitter, good luck dying alone?

435
00:21:22,005 --> 00:21:24,565
Speaker 3: Yes, and it's the same. I sort of think if

436
00:21:24,605 --> 00:21:29,485
Speaker 3: that was the best, it's not so bad actually dying

437
00:21:29,485 --> 00:21:31,925
Speaker 3: alone or being alone. I'm very good alone, you know,

438
00:21:32,005 --> 00:21:34,485
Speaker 3: I'm very good alone. I choose not to have a

439
00:21:34,565 --> 00:21:37,805
Speaker 3: huge circle of friends, so actually, yeahs that could be

440
00:21:37,965 --> 00:21:40,445
Speaker 3: levied against me. It was like, I'm okay with that,

441
00:21:40,605 --> 00:21:43,085
Speaker 3: and also there's no guarantee you're not going to die

442
00:21:43,085 --> 00:21:43,645
Speaker 3: alone either.

443
00:21:43,965 --> 00:21:46,125
Speaker 2: You're right that deciding not to have children in your

444
00:21:46,125 --> 00:21:48,205
Speaker 2: mid to late thirties, which is how old you were

445
00:21:48,445 --> 00:21:51,485
Speaker 2: when you made the decision, and even into your early forties,

446
00:21:51,645 --> 00:21:55,005
Speaker 2: always feels like a sort of a cheat. What did

447
00:21:55,005 --> 00:21:55,765
Speaker 2: you mean by that?

448
00:21:56,005 --> 00:21:57,685
Speaker 3: Well, I think what I meant was that you have

449
00:21:57,805 --> 00:22:00,645
Speaker 3: the possibility to change your mind still at thirty six

450
00:22:00,765 --> 00:22:04,045
Speaker 3: thirty seven saying I'm child free, Well, of course I

451
00:22:04,125 --> 00:22:06,765
Speaker 3: still had sort of, you know, a window, possibly even

452
00:22:06,805 --> 00:22:09,605
Speaker 3: ten years. I'd probably say less than that, but I

453
00:22:09,645 --> 00:22:12,445
Speaker 3: could still change my mind. It's not sort of so

454
00:22:12,605 --> 00:22:15,045
Speaker 3: wild a statement because actually, and people did say that,

455
00:22:15,085 --> 00:22:17,245
Speaker 3: they go, oh, you've still got time to change your mind.

456
00:22:17,445 --> 00:22:19,845
Speaker 2: Did that annoy you when people said that, because it's

457
00:22:19,965 --> 00:22:22,805
Speaker 2: very like implying that I know better than you about

458
00:22:22,845 --> 00:22:24,405
Speaker 2: your own decisions.

459
00:22:24,725 --> 00:22:26,285
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think it is annoyed.

460
00:22:26,245 --> 00:22:26,885
Speaker 2: It's very smart.

461
00:22:26,925 --> 00:22:29,405
Speaker 3: I think it is. Yeah, And it's like, exactly, we

462
00:22:29,445 --> 00:22:32,525
Speaker 3: know better and trust you, with the wisdom of age,

463
00:22:32,765 --> 00:22:35,965
Speaker 3: you will change your mind. So that whole of you've

464
00:22:35,965 --> 00:22:38,845
Speaker 3: still got time to change your mind. Really, in the

465
00:22:38,845 --> 00:22:41,485
Speaker 3: beginning I perceived as you will change your mind, And

466
00:22:41,565 --> 00:22:43,765
Speaker 3: actually there was a part of me that was like, well,

467
00:22:43,925 --> 00:22:46,645
Speaker 3: maybe I will. I just don't know, but this is

468
00:22:46,645 --> 00:22:49,205
Speaker 3: the best decision that I can make at this point

469
00:22:49,245 --> 00:22:52,565
Speaker 3: in my life. And remember, I'd taken on a very

470
00:22:52,565 --> 00:22:54,805
Speaker 3: big job at that point. I was editor of Cosmo,

471
00:22:54,885 --> 00:22:59,365
Speaker 3: which of course was all about women's choice and underlying

472
00:22:59,365 --> 00:23:01,845
Speaker 3: the decision, which of course you don't go into with strangers,

473
00:23:02,445 --> 00:23:04,605
Speaker 3: but I think if strangers had pressed me more on it.

474
00:23:04,805 --> 00:23:08,085
Speaker 3: One of the other reasons was that whole premise, which

475
00:23:08,125 --> 00:23:12,085
Speaker 3: of course Cosmos star or certainly contributed to the narrative

476
00:23:12,125 --> 00:23:15,245
Speaker 3: of having it all. I never believed it was true

477
00:23:15,405 --> 00:23:18,485
Speaker 3: for me. That's a really important thing to look at,

478
00:23:18,525 --> 00:23:20,285
Speaker 3: which is, of course some people could have it all.

479
00:23:20,325 --> 00:23:23,045
Speaker 3: But I'm a worker. I struggle with things. I have

480
00:23:23,085 --> 00:23:26,005
Speaker 3: to work really really hard to get the success that

481
00:23:26,005 --> 00:23:28,165
Speaker 3: I've had, like really hard, I think, a lot harder

482
00:23:28,205 --> 00:23:31,325
Speaker 3: than other people behind the scenes. It's real grind stuff

483
00:23:31,365 --> 00:23:34,285
Speaker 3: for me. So being the sort of mother I would

484
00:23:34,325 --> 00:23:36,565
Speaker 3: want to be, and I know what I'm like, I'm obsessive,

485
00:23:36,645 --> 00:23:40,805
Speaker 3: it would have been all encompassing. But also just taken

486
00:23:40,845 --> 00:23:43,205
Speaker 3: on this job, which is a job that I'd always wanted.

487
00:23:44,405 --> 00:23:46,765
Speaker 3: I didn't think that I could do both of them

488
00:23:46,805 --> 00:23:49,885
Speaker 3: sufficiently well. And that was a sort of I said.

489
00:23:49,885 --> 00:23:52,205
Speaker 3: There were a myriad number of reasons why I made

490
00:23:52,205 --> 00:23:54,805
Speaker 3: the decision, but that was certainly one that played into

491
00:23:54,845 --> 00:23:55,405
Speaker 3: it for sure.

492
00:23:55,605 --> 00:23:58,245
Speaker 2: Isn't it interesting? Because I got pregnant and expectedly just

493
00:23:58,245 --> 00:24:01,765
Speaker 2: a few months after starting as editor of Cosmo in Australia,

494
00:24:01,805 --> 00:24:05,445
Speaker 2: and it never occurred to me that I couldn't like it.

495
00:24:05,605 --> 00:24:09,285
Speaker 2: Never for one second occurred to me that I couldn't

496
00:24:09,485 --> 00:24:12,685
Speaker 2: both of those things interesting. It's true what you say

497
00:24:12,725 --> 00:24:15,845
Speaker 2: about when a woman tells you that she does or

498
00:24:15,885 --> 00:24:18,085
Speaker 2: doesn't want to become a mother, believe her.

499
00:24:18,365 --> 00:24:20,525
Speaker 3: That's right, that's right. I mean, that's why I have

500
00:24:20,565 --> 00:24:24,285
Speaker 3: to really know yourself incredibly well and work on yourself

501
00:24:24,365 --> 00:24:29,325
Speaker 3: to understand what success and the path to success looks

502
00:24:29,365 --> 00:24:32,045
Speaker 3: like for you. I am not one of these people

503
00:24:32,045 --> 00:24:34,845
Speaker 3: who sort of goes along on the ease through life.

504
00:24:35,765 --> 00:24:37,765
Speaker 3: It takes a lot for me to sort of get

505
00:24:37,805 --> 00:24:40,405
Speaker 3: to where I guess I've got to. I think that

506
00:24:40,445 --> 00:24:42,525
Speaker 3: there's something very important about that. And I always say

507
00:24:42,845 --> 00:24:46,725
Speaker 3: to younger women, it's like, you should really interrogate that

508
00:24:46,765 --> 00:24:49,885
Speaker 3: whole concept of having it all and maybe me that

509
00:24:50,045 --> 00:24:51,485
Speaker 3: you know, a lot of women will be like you

510
00:24:51,525 --> 00:24:53,045
Speaker 3: and they don't question because is like, of course I

511
00:24:53,045 --> 00:24:55,085
Speaker 3: can do it. There will be others who go, yeah,

512
00:24:55,125 --> 00:24:56,605
Speaker 3: I need to stop and have a think about this.

513
00:24:57,125 --> 00:24:59,685
Speaker 3: The other thing I think is because we didn't, Because

514
00:24:59,885 --> 00:25:02,445
Speaker 3: me and Will it took years. We were trying for

515
00:25:02,485 --> 00:25:06,205
Speaker 3: a long time. What also happened is that introspection or

516
00:25:06,205 --> 00:25:09,165
Speaker 3: the interrogation of who I was and what I could do,

517
00:25:09,365 --> 00:25:12,045
Speaker 3: what I was capable of. I had years to think

518
00:25:12,125 --> 00:25:15,525
Speaker 3: about that. Had I got pregnant very quickly, I'm not

519
00:25:15,565 --> 00:25:17,565
Speaker 3: sure I would have reached the same conclusion. Actually, I

520
00:25:17,605 --> 00:25:20,005
Speaker 3: think if we'd have got pregnant at you know, sort

521
00:25:20,005 --> 00:25:22,925
Speaker 3: of thirty four, I don't think i'd be here today.

522
00:25:23,405 --> 00:25:25,405
Speaker 3: I don't think we would have had more than one perhaps,

523
00:25:25,845 --> 00:25:28,205
Speaker 3: but we would have had children. But it was an

524
00:25:28,325 --> 00:25:31,525
Speaker 3: aunting game. That's when the question started to form and

525
00:25:31,525 --> 00:25:33,085
Speaker 3: I had to come up with some answers.

526
00:25:33,805 --> 00:25:35,885
Speaker 2: Fara did come up with the answers that she needed

527
00:25:35,885 --> 00:25:38,765
Speaker 2: for her life and in her self exploration and kind

528
00:25:38,765 --> 00:25:42,525
Speaker 2: of process of self discovery. Those answers became real pearls

529
00:25:42,525 --> 00:25:45,325
Speaker 2: of wisdom about the richness and purpose that can be

530
00:25:45,365 --> 00:25:48,005
Speaker 2: found in life as a non parent as she has.

531
00:25:48,645 --> 00:25:50,765
Speaker 2: And Farah may have set out to understand her own

532
00:25:50,805 --> 00:25:53,085
Speaker 2: feelings about motherhood, but what she learned along the way

533
00:25:53,365 --> 00:25:57,485
Speaker 2: about friendship and about creating our own rituals and defining

534
00:25:57,485 --> 00:26:01,005
Speaker 2: what family really means, it relates to all of us.

535
00:26:01,205 --> 00:26:03,125
Speaker 2: I promise you after the next part of this interview,

536
00:26:03,205 --> 00:26:05,085
Speaker 2: you're going to want to make some calls or actually

537
00:26:05,165 --> 00:26:07,965
Speaker 2: some texts. Let's be honest to the people that you love.

538
00:26:13,005 --> 00:26:17,125
Speaker 2: You wrote basically a fantastic piece for your substat called

539
00:26:17,125 --> 00:26:20,085
Speaker 2: how Not to Be a Mother, and you sort of said,

540
00:26:20,445 --> 00:26:24,085
Speaker 2: so many people write about the choice, but I want

541
00:26:24,085 --> 00:26:26,365
Speaker 2: to talk about what life is like on the other

542
00:26:26,445 --> 00:26:30,365
Speaker 2: side of that choice, down the track where the gates

543
00:26:30,445 --> 00:26:33,125
Speaker 2: kind of closed. It's not still up for debate as

544
00:26:33,125 --> 00:26:35,765
Speaker 2: far as you're concerned. It's done. You say, it's a

545
00:26:35,765 --> 00:26:37,725
Speaker 2: list of things from the other side, things we don't

546
00:26:37,765 --> 00:26:41,605
Speaker 2: really talk about but probably should. Why did you make

547
00:26:41,685 --> 00:26:42,325
Speaker 2: that list?

548
00:26:42,805 --> 00:26:46,685
Speaker 3: I've had sort of almost ten years now of occasionally

549
00:26:46,725 --> 00:26:49,445
Speaker 3: writing about being child free. I don't always write about it.

550
00:26:49,485 --> 00:26:51,125
Speaker 3: I get asked a lot, but I don't always write

551
00:26:51,125 --> 00:26:51,685
Speaker 3: about it.

552
00:26:51,765 --> 00:26:53,845
Speaker 2: Is that because you don't want to be defined by it,

553
00:26:53,965 --> 00:26:56,325
Speaker 2: or because you're bored of it, why do you say

554
00:26:56,365 --> 00:26:58,725
Speaker 2: no to a lot of invitations to talk about it.

555
00:26:59,045 --> 00:27:00,765
Speaker 3: I think a little bit of both. I think it's

556
00:27:00,765 --> 00:27:03,765
Speaker 3: the two things. I think you know, in the same

557
00:27:03,805 --> 00:27:05,845
Speaker 3: way that if I was a mother, I would not

558
00:27:05,885 --> 00:27:08,645
Speaker 3: expect anyone to define me just as a mother. In

559
00:27:08,685 --> 00:27:11,205
Speaker 3: the same way I didn't expect people just to define

560
00:27:11,245 --> 00:27:13,125
Speaker 3: me as there's the child free woman. And as you know,

561
00:27:13,125 --> 00:27:15,285
Speaker 3: in journalism, it's very easy to get in that root

562
00:27:15,325 --> 00:27:18,045
Speaker 3: of people go child free. Let's get fired to write

563
00:27:18,045 --> 00:27:18,445
Speaker 3: about it.

564
00:27:18,685 --> 00:27:21,205
Speaker 2: Let's get fire and write about it. And look here,

565
00:27:21,245 --> 00:27:24,525
Speaker 2: I am Farah, come and talk to me on no filter.

566
00:27:25,045 --> 00:27:27,085
Speaker 2: Thank you for saying yes to me, even though you

567
00:27:27,125 --> 00:27:28,525
Speaker 2: said notice so many other people.

568
00:27:29,005 --> 00:27:31,605
Speaker 3: Very welcome. And also I thought I had written everything

569
00:27:31,605 --> 00:27:34,365
Speaker 3: that there was to say. I didn't, as a woman

570
00:27:34,405 --> 00:27:37,525
Speaker 3: in her late thirties early forties, have anything else to

571
00:27:37,525 --> 00:27:40,805
Speaker 3: say about it. But of course what had happened is

572
00:27:40,845 --> 00:27:43,165
Speaker 3: in the sort of maybe you know, two or three

573
00:27:43,205 --> 00:27:46,165
Speaker 3: pieces I had written, whether I liked it or not.

574
00:27:47,085 --> 00:27:50,565
Speaker 3: There were a number of young women who reached out

575
00:27:50,565 --> 00:27:54,645
Speaker 3: to me all the time, constantly through social media. They'd

576
00:27:54,645 --> 00:27:56,405
Speaker 3: picked up on something and What it made me think

577
00:27:56,485 --> 00:27:58,245
Speaker 3: is these women are obviously looking for answers, and they'd

578
00:27:58,245 --> 00:28:00,365
Speaker 3: probably found an old thing that I'd written years ago,

579
00:28:00,765 --> 00:28:02,325
Speaker 3: and then they walked out to me and they would

580
00:28:02,325 --> 00:28:05,725
Speaker 3: say thank you. I started to notice a pattern, of course,

581
00:28:05,725 --> 00:28:08,245
Speaker 3: which was they didn't seem to be many people who

582
00:28:08,365 --> 00:28:13,085
Speaker 3: were the different or the alternative narrative. And so when

583
00:28:13,125 --> 00:28:16,405
Speaker 3: I reach forty five, you're right, the choice has pretty

584
00:28:16,485 --> 00:28:18,845
Speaker 3: much been taken away from you pretty much. I mean,

585
00:28:19,085 --> 00:28:20,805
Speaker 3: I cannot imagine a world where I would now fell

586
00:28:20,805 --> 00:28:25,165
Speaker 3: pregnant naturally. And actually, I think when the choice has gone,

587
00:28:25,605 --> 00:28:27,045
Speaker 3: you then start to look at the life that you've

588
00:28:27,085 --> 00:28:28,925
Speaker 3: built without children, because if I'd have had a child

589
00:28:28,925 --> 00:28:30,205
Speaker 3: at thirty, where it would have been like ten or

590
00:28:30,245 --> 00:28:31,885
Speaker 3: twelve now, and so it's like, okay, well what did

591
00:28:31,925 --> 00:28:34,725
Speaker 3: I do in those twelve years? I'd actually done an

592
00:28:34,765 --> 00:28:38,565
Speaker 3: awful lot, and the shape of my life actually looked

593
00:28:38,565 --> 00:28:42,365
Speaker 3: pretty good, and I thought that was probably something worth

594
00:28:42,405 --> 00:28:46,525
Speaker 3: sharing with people, particularly these young women who were thanking

595
00:28:46,565 --> 00:28:49,645
Speaker 3: me for talking about the choice to be child free.

596
00:28:50,045 --> 00:28:52,205
Speaker 3: But actually after that they had nowhere else to go.

597
00:28:52,285 --> 00:28:54,405
Speaker 3: And so actually what I wanted to say to them was, well, look,

598
00:28:54,485 --> 00:28:57,245
Speaker 3: this is what once the choice has gone, because that's

599
00:28:57,285 --> 00:29:00,685
Speaker 3: coming for you. Next, this is what an alternative life

600
00:29:00,805 --> 00:29:01,725
Speaker 3: might look like for you.

601
00:29:02,045 --> 00:29:03,445
Speaker 2: I want to go through some of the points on

602
00:29:03,485 --> 00:29:06,325
Speaker 2: your list because they're so full of wisdom. The first

603
00:29:06,325 --> 00:29:10,045
Speaker 2: one is about relief. What kind of relief did you experience?

604
00:29:10,485 --> 00:29:12,645
Speaker 3: Well, I think there's any relief, isn't it when choice

605
00:29:12,685 --> 00:29:14,765
Speaker 3: is taken away from you? If you're a worrier like me,

606
00:29:14,805 --> 00:29:18,165
Speaker 3: if you're sort of high neuroses, choice is a difficult thing.

607
00:29:18,605 --> 00:29:21,725
Speaker 3: There's always of did I do the right thing? Once

608
00:29:21,765 --> 00:29:25,205
Speaker 3: that choice is gone, it's incredible. It's a whole part

609
00:29:25,245 --> 00:29:27,445
Speaker 3: of your brain that doesn't have to deal with this

610
00:29:27,485 --> 00:29:31,365
Speaker 3: subject anymore. And by the way, it probably occupied more

611
00:29:31,405 --> 00:29:33,725
Speaker 3: of my thoughts than I probably let on. You know,

612
00:29:33,805 --> 00:29:35,565
Speaker 3: had we made the right decision, even though me and

613
00:29:35,565 --> 00:29:38,645
Speaker 3: Will didn't talk about it, I'm almost certain it would

614
00:29:38,645 --> 00:29:41,405
Speaker 3: have taken up a huge amount of energy. And so

615
00:29:41,805 --> 00:29:44,245
Speaker 3: now that's gone, it's sort of like this space in

616
00:29:44,245 --> 00:29:47,405
Speaker 3: my mind which is much freer. Children or the whole

617
00:29:47,485 --> 00:29:51,845
Speaker 3: topic of children, my children or my theoretical children. It's

618
00:29:51,925 --> 00:29:54,005
Speaker 3: just gone. So it's sort of a brain space that

619
00:29:54,045 --> 00:29:56,885
Speaker 3: I have, and that's a relief. The other relief, of course,

620
00:29:56,965 --> 00:29:59,365
Speaker 3: is people don't want to talk to you anymore about

621
00:29:59,365 --> 00:30:00,125
Speaker 3: your choices.

622
00:29:59,885 --> 00:30:03,325
Speaker 2: Except me, except me today.

623
00:30:03,445 --> 00:30:05,485
Speaker 3: The assument, of course, you can't change your mind because

624
00:30:05,485 --> 00:30:07,685
Speaker 3: it's too late for you. So people occasionally will still

625
00:30:07,685 --> 00:30:10,405
Speaker 3: ask me do you have children? And I'll say no,

626
00:30:11,085 --> 00:30:13,685
Speaker 3: and then they'll move on to something else. And of

627
00:30:13,725 --> 00:30:15,805
Speaker 3: course that's a two way thing, because I don't feel

628
00:30:15,805 --> 00:30:17,685
Speaker 3: I have to justify to them anymore how as a

629
00:30:17,725 --> 00:30:20,045
Speaker 3: forty five or a woman I don't have children. But

630
00:30:20,125 --> 00:30:22,685
Speaker 3: also I think people just realize, you know, they look

631
00:30:22,685 --> 00:30:23,685
Speaker 3: at me and they go, well, she's a woman of

632
00:30:23,885 --> 00:30:26,445
Speaker 3: a certain age. She probably can't have children anymore. She's

633
00:30:26,445 --> 00:30:28,645
Speaker 3: obviously made some decisions in her life, and it doesn't

634
00:30:28,685 --> 00:30:29,965
Speaker 3: really go any further.

635
00:30:30,285 --> 00:30:32,885
Speaker 2: When we were talking about that earlier, about that question

636
00:30:33,005 --> 00:30:36,325
Speaker 2: do you have kids, I think we've also learned. I'm

637
00:30:36,365 --> 00:30:39,605
Speaker 2: now very careful not to ask that. Occasionally I will,

638
00:30:39,645 --> 00:30:42,045
Speaker 2: and every time I'll regret it. You're right, it's okay

639
00:30:42,045 --> 00:30:44,205
Speaker 2: asking someone our age, or you're younger than me, but

640
00:30:44,285 --> 00:30:47,525
Speaker 2: someone who's kind of mid forties or above. But when

641
00:30:47,565 --> 00:30:51,005
Speaker 2: you ask someone who's perhaps in their late thirties or

642
00:30:51,085 --> 00:30:55,885
Speaker 2: very early forties, you can accidentally trip over a landmine.

643
00:30:55,965 --> 00:30:59,645
Speaker 2: And there can be some very difficult, devastating answers to

644
00:30:59,645 --> 00:31:01,845
Speaker 2: that question. It can be around child loss, it can

645
00:31:01,885 --> 00:31:04,845
Speaker 2: be around not everybody chooses not to become a mother.

646
00:31:05,205 --> 00:31:07,925
Speaker 2: You know, some people are child less, some people are

647
00:31:08,005 --> 00:31:10,725
Speaker 2: child free. You don't like either of those terms. For

648
00:31:10,805 --> 00:31:13,765
Speaker 2: the reasons that you've spoken about. You prefer non parent

649
00:31:14,285 --> 00:31:16,805
Speaker 2: and I think we've understood as a society. I hope

650
00:31:17,165 --> 00:31:19,885
Speaker 2: to be a little more discreet and to just be

651
00:31:20,005 --> 00:31:24,085
Speaker 2: careful about rummaging in people's pockets of maybe things that

652
00:31:24,125 --> 00:31:25,365
Speaker 2: are very close to their heart.

653
00:31:25,605 --> 00:31:28,445
Speaker 3: You're one hundred percent right. And actually I think Mia

654
00:31:28,485 --> 00:31:30,205
Speaker 3: when people used to ask me, and I used to

655
00:31:30,285 --> 00:31:33,125
Speaker 3: bring out this monologue that was me working my way

656
00:31:33,165 --> 00:31:35,685
Speaker 3: through something, it was probably my own sort of themy here.

657
00:31:36,165 --> 00:31:37,765
Speaker 3: So I think you're right. I think if it's a

658
00:31:37,805 --> 00:31:40,725
Speaker 3: woman of a certain age, I agree. I don't go

659
00:31:40,885 --> 00:31:43,245
Speaker 3: near it unless they prompt and ask me about it.

660
00:31:43,605 --> 00:31:45,925
Speaker 2: Okay, So the number two thing on your list, the

661
00:31:46,005 --> 00:31:48,365
Speaker 2: second thing that you've discovered and you want people to know,

662
00:31:48,525 --> 00:31:52,565
Speaker 2: is that other relationships will blossom. Can you explain that

663
00:31:52,645 --> 00:31:54,965
Speaker 2: you wrote about your mother and your relationship with her.

664
00:31:55,485 --> 00:31:58,685
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, once the sort of mother child dynamic

665
00:31:58,805 --> 00:32:01,405
Speaker 3: is out of the equation for you, then you have

666
00:32:01,485 --> 00:32:04,605
Speaker 3: this time to think about, well, what are the other

667
00:32:04,685 --> 00:32:07,485
Speaker 3: relationships which are open to me now? And the other

668
00:32:07,525 --> 00:32:10,245
Speaker 3: relationships are I'm lucky that my parents are still alive.

669
00:32:10,325 --> 00:32:13,085
Speaker 3: My mother is still alive, She's in good health, and

670
00:32:13,685 --> 00:32:16,605
Speaker 3: we have become much closer. And I think one of

671
00:32:16,645 --> 00:32:20,205
Speaker 3: the wonderful things about me not being a mother is

672
00:32:20,245 --> 00:32:23,725
Speaker 3: getting to know my mother as a person as opposed to.

673
00:32:23,685 --> 00:32:26,645
Speaker 2: A mother, yeah, or a grandmother exactly.

674
00:32:26,685 --> 00:32:29,525
Speaker 3: There's no conversation which friends have told me, will you

675
00:32:29,565 --> 00:32:31,165
Speaker 3: talk about the kids. That's what you do when you

676
00:32:31,205 --> 00:32:33,885
Speaker 3: start to understand your mother as a mother, while she

677
00:32:33,925 --> 00:32:37,005
Speaker 3: wants you're a mother, you have that incredible link with

678
00:32:37,085 --> 00:32:38,845
Speaker 3: each other because you empathize with her and what she

679
00:32:38,925 --> 00:32:41,725
Speaker 3: went through. I don't have that, But what I can

680
00:32:41,805 --> 00:32:45,965
Speaker 3: have with my mother is an understanding of her and

681
00:32:46,005 --> 00:32:47,925
Speaker 3: what she was like as a middle aged woman like me.

682
00:32:47,965 --> 00:32:49,805
Speaker 3: And so we have a you know, I was just

683
00:32:49,885 --> 00:32:51,805
Speaker 3: away with her at the weekend in Cambridge. We have

684
00:32:52,485 --> 00:32:56,125
Speaker 3: a really wonderful relationship now where I think I probably

685
00:32:56,485 --> 00:32:58,965
Speaker 3: get to find out much more about her Linda as

686
00:32:59,005 --> 00:33:02,845
Speaker 3: a woman, as opposed to her as a mother. You

687
00:33:02,845 --> 00:33:05,525
Speaker 3: know the other thing. Throughout my whole career, I never

688
00:33:05,565 --> 00:33:07,405
Speaker 3: had a lot of friends. I just didn't have time.

689
00:33:08,245 --> 00:33:11,205
Speaker 3: And now I'm a point in my life where I

690
00:33:11,245 --> 00:33:14,205
Speaker 3: can lean into friendship much more now. Of course, women

691
00:33:14,325 --> 00:33:16,325
Speaker 3: my age, most of them do have families. So actually

692
00:33:16,365 --> 00:33:18,925
Speaker 3: the women that I have friendships with just turned out

693
00:33:18,925 --> 00:33:22,325
Speaker 3: that way. They are mothers, but they're in their fifties.

694
00:33:22,525 --> 00:33:25,725
Speaker 3: And that's not to say just aren't difficult, but they've

695
00:33:25,765 --> 00:33:27,605
Speaker 3: got a bit more freedom in their life. And so

696
00:33:28,405 --> 00:33:32,405
Speaker 3: those relationships with older women is something that is incredible,

697
00:33:32,725 --> 00:33:36,005
Speaker 3: and I feel really lucky that as a forty something women,

698
00:33:36,325 --> 00:33:37,605
Speaker 3: I get to have a lot of women in their

699
00:33:37,645 --> 00:33:39,805
Speaker 3: fifties and sixties in my life who I think are

700
00:33:39,845 --> 00:33:41,685
Speaker 3: at that point in their lives where they have an

701
00:33:41,885 --> 00:33:44,685
Speaker 3: enormous amount of wisdom and space in their life to

702
00:33:44,685 --> 00:33:47,525
Speaker 3: give to friendship. So there's that as well. So there's

703
00:33:47,525 --> 00:33:49,765
Speaker 3: all these different relationships.

704
00:33:50,085 --> 00:33:52,365
Speaker 2: So I'm glad you said that, because unexpected friendships was

705
00:33:52,405 --> 00:33:55,245
Speaker 2: another thing on this list, and because I had kids,

706
00:33:55,325 --> 00:33:57,245
Speaker 2: I was a lot younger than any of my friends.

707
00:33:57,285 --> 00:33:59,845
Speaker 2: I was completely out of step. So when a lot

708
00:33:59,885 --> 00:34:02,445
Speaker 2: of my friends had really young kids. I was in

709
00:34:02,485 --> 00:34:05,245
Speaker 2: a very different life stage because my kids were older.

710
00:34:05,685 --> 00:34:08,965
Speaker 2: And I remember saying to someone or observing that I

711
00:34:09,005 --> 00:34:11,085
Speaker 2: had more in common with my friends who didn't have

712
00:34:11,205 --> 00:34:14,725
Speaker 2: kids than with my friends who had little kids. Yeah,

713
00:34:14,765 --> 00:34:17,005
Speaker 2: And it was like a coming together again with my

714
00:34:17,165 --> 00:34:20,125
Speaker 2: friends after our paths had diverged for a while, when

715
00:34:20,125 --> 00:34:22,845
Speaker 2: I was in the thick of it. Suddenly I had

716
00:34:22,845 --> 00:34:25,445
Speaker 2: the same kinds of freedoms that they had when all

717
00:34:25,565 --> 00:34:28,245
Speaker 2: my friends with little kids were kind of locked down

718
00:34:28,325 --> 00:34:29,205
Speaker 2: for years and years.

719
00:34:29,325 --> 00:34:31,525
Speaker 3: I think that's right, isn't it. And I think there

720
00:34:31,645 --> 00:34:33,965
Speaker 3: is a lockdown, and I sort of understand that. So

721
00:34:34,125 --> 00:34:38,805
Speaker 3: I don't particularly pursue relationships with mothers who have young

722
00:34:38,925 --> 00:34:40,685
Speaker 3: kids because I know there's only so much they're going

723
00:34:40,725 --> 00:34:42,325
Speaker 3: to be able to give. And that's quite the paint.

724
00:34:42,805 --> 00:34:45,445
Speaker 3: That's absolutely yeah, And I'll probably see them on the

725
00:34:45,485 --> 00:34:47,765
Speaker 3: other side and if the friendship's worth anything, it will

726
00:34:47,805 --> 00:34:50,965
Speaker 3: be absolutely fine in ten to fifteen years time. So

727
00:34:51,045 --> 00:34:54,005
Speaker 3: I've sort of gone looking in different areas for friendships, really,

728
00:34:54,005 --> 00:34:57,085
Speaker 3: and who is available to give the friendship at any

729
00:34:57,125 --> 00:34:57,845
Speaker 3: point in life.

730
00:34:57,965 --> 00:35:02,445
Speaker 2: I'm available. The unknown is another thing on your list.

731
00:35:03,165 --> 00:35:05,285
Speaker 2: I really love this. You talked about making your own

732
00:35:05,405 --> 00:35:08,965
Speaker 2: rituals and defining family. Can you talk a bit about that.

733
00:35:09,445 --> 00:35:13,005
Speaker 3: All the rituals that sort of families have, so Christmas

734
00:35:13,045 --> 00:35:15,965
Speaker 3: and opening the presents together and someone dressing up as Sansa,

735
00:35:16,165 --> 00:35:19,805
Speaker 3: and we don't have that, and so you have to

736
00:35:19,845 --> 00:35:23,565
Speaker 3: sort of make your own patchwork quilt of what your

737
00:35:24,165 --> 00:35:27,245
Speaker 3: own family's rituals look like. So you knows the presence

738
00:35:27,285 --> 00:35:29,725
Speaker 3: in the evening or for Christmas, actually we go away

739
00:35:29,765 --> 00:35:31,965
Speaker 3: to like a log cabin in the middle of nowhere.

740
00:35:32,125 --> 00:35:35,085
Speaker 3: We don't really see anybody. It's just us and the dogs,

741
00:35:35,085 --> 00:35:37,725
Speaker 3: and that's a ritual for us. We escape from the world.

742
00:35:38,485 --> 00:35:40,245
Speaker 3: We miss out on a whole load of these things.

743
00:35:40,245 --> 00:35:43,165
Speaker 3: So Halloween comes and goes. Of course you see these

744
00:35:43,205 --> 00:35:45,005
Speaker 3: parents with these kids going out in the streets, and

745
00:35:45,045 --> 00:35:47,605
Speaker 3: that's sort of not available tools, which is absolutely fine.

746
00:35:47,645 --> 00:35:50,325
Speaker 3: But around that time we always go away and minigrate

747
00:35:50,325 --> 00:35:52,565
Speaker 3: with the dogs. But it's not the same. But you

748
00:35:52,725 --> 00:35:57,005
Speaker 3: have to start making different patterns because the ones are

749
00:35:57,045 --> 00:36:00,485
Speaker 3: not available. But actually just because they're not available doesn't

750
00:36:00,525 --> 00:36:02,925
Speaker 3: mean that you can't find a replacement.

751
00:36:02,565 --> 00:36:05,845
Speaker 2: Find meaning in other places. You say that another thing

752
00:36:05,885 --> 00:36:08,485
Speaker 2: on your list is that your worries will differ. What

753
00:36:08,565 --> 00:36:11,685
Speaker 2: do you worry about? It's perhaps different to a parent

754
00:36:12,125 --> 00:36:13,005
Speaker 2: that you've noticed.

755
00:36:13,485 --> 00:36:16,445
Speaker 3: I think the one thing where those people were right

756
00:36:16,485 --> 00:36:18,925
Speaker 3: when they go life is long, except of course now

757
00:36:18,965 --> 00:36:21,885
Speaker 3: I think life is very short. When people say life

758
00:36:21,925 --> 00:36:23,645
Speaker 3: is long and you really need to think about it,

759
00:36:24,445 --> 00:36:26,485
Speaker 3: I think actually it was a very good sort of

760
00:36:26,565 --> 00:36:30,085
Speaker 3: jumping off point to start thinking about, well, what is

761
00:36:30,125 --> 00:36:32,125
Speaker 3: the purpose or what is the point? I mean, purpose

762
00:36:32,165 --> 00:36:34,405
Speaker 3: is now such a bloody cichepe. And of course people's

763
00:36:34,485 --> 00:36:37,925
Speaker 3: children are not always their purpose. But I worry now

764
00:36:37,925 --> 00:36:40,085
Speaker 3: about sort of what, which is very arrogant to say

765
00:36:40,165 --> 00:36:42,685
Speaker 3: what I'm going to leave behind. I worry probably a

766
00:36:42,685 --> 00:36:47,165
Speaker 3: lot more about health, old age. I worry probably more

767
00:36:47,205 --> 00:36:49,805
Speaker 3: about social problems because I have the space to start

768
00:36:49,845 --> 00:36:53,045
Speaker 3: thinking about things outside of rabits. But I don't have

769
00:36:53,085 --> 00:36:57,125
Speaker 3: to worry about raising a human being. So my worries are, well,

770
00:36:57,285 --> 00:36:58,965
Speaker 3: will I ever leave an imprint on the world. I

771
00:36:59,045 --> 00:37:00,765
Speaker 3: might not leave an imprint on the world, but you

772
00:37:00,925 --> 00:37:04,245
Speaker 3: sort of have to try. I think. So my worry

773
00:37:04,405 --> 00:37:07,205
Speaker 3: are what good can I do? Or what can I do?

774
00:37:07,325 --> 00:37:09,205
Speaker 3: Or what I think? Actually it's what can I build?

775
00:37:09,445 --> 00:37:11,085
Speaker 3: I think that's a big thing. I think when you're

776
00:37:11,205 --> 00:37:13,845
Speaker 3: building a human being is a huge amount of energy

777
00:37:13,885 --> 00:37:15,805
Speaker 3: and people will probably take this the wrong way, but

778
00:37:15,805 --> 00:37:18,205
Speaker 3: a huge amount of creativity into building a good human

779
00:37:18,245 --> 00:37:19,885
Speaker 3: being for the world, I imagine. I mean you're a mother,

780
00:37:19,925 --> 00:37:20,885
Speaker 3: you'll know much better than it.

781
00:37:21,205 --> 00:37:25,925
Speaker 2: Yeah, also money, of course, money time you know side,

782
00:37:26,045 --> 00:37:28,165
Speaker 2: there's a lot of emotional energy. And they also say

783
00:37:28,325 --> 00:37:30,565
Speaker 2: you're only as happy as your least happy child.

784
00:37:30,925 --> 00:37:34,285
Speaker 3: I really remember that, I mean the constant threat. I

785
00:37:34,445 --> 00:37:36,925
Speaker 3: wasn't sure again that I wanted that in my life.

786
00:37:37,045 --> 00:37:38,005
Speaker 3: That is a selfish thing.

787
00:37:38,125 --> 00:37:40,245
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know if it's selfish, but

788
00:37:40,325 --> 00:37:43,165
Speaker 2: I just think it's more contained. It's not that your

789
00:37:43,205 --> 00:37:45,645
Speaker 2: life will be happy necessarily if you don't have kids,

790
00:37:45,645 --> 00:37:49,205
Speaker 2: but your happiness or your unhappiness will be your own,

791
00:37:49,405 --> 00:37:51,965
Speaker 2: like your heart will not be living outside of your body.

792
00:37:52,005 --> 00:37:53,685
Speaker 2: It will be living inside of your body.

793
00:37:53,885 --> 00:37:57,205
Speaker 3: You can't rely on another person ultimately, whether that's your child,

794
00:37:57,605 --> 00:38:01,085
Speaker 3: to bring your happiness. So I think that was another

795
00:38:01,125 --> 00:38:04,165
Speaker 3: thing which that phrase is bleak in a way, but

796
00:38:04,205 --> 00:38:06,685
Speaker 3: I think it's probably very true. I mean, don't they

797
00:38:06,725 --> 00:38:08,605
Speaker 3: say that every time a child walks out the door,

798
00:38:08,645 --> 00:38:10,125
Speaker 3: they're taking them mother heart with them.

799
00:38:10,325 --> 00:38:11,845
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just walking around out in the.

800
00:38:11,845 --> 00:38:15,765
Speaker 3: World absolutely terrifying. So you know, I suppose I think

801
00:38:15,805 --> 00:38:18,765
Speaker 3: a lot now about well, actually I do want to

802
00:38:18,765 --> 00:38:20,565
Speaker 3: put my heart out into the world. I actually do

803
00:38:20,645 --> 00:38:22,485
Speaker 3: want that, not in the way that we're talking about,

804
00:38:22,725 --> 00:38:24,525
Speaker 3: but you have to talking about how are you going

805
00:38:24,605 --> 00:38:26,685
Speaker 3: to do that, and actually what is the thing you

806
00:38:26,725 --> 00:38:29,125
Speaker 3: are going to build? Because actually I do think most

807
00:38:29,205 --> 00:38:32,725
Speaker 3: people need projects in life. They need personal projects, they

808
00:38:32,725 --> 00:38:35,365
Speaker 3: need meaning, I need the grind, I need to keep

809
00:38:35,365 --> 00:38:38,605
Speaker 3: building something. So you start thinking about that, what's the

810
00:38:38,645 --> 00:38:41,045
Speaker 3: thing that I want to build? If there's not a

811
00:38:41,125 --> 00:38:41,925
Speaker 3: human life here.

812
00:38:42,205 --> 00:38:44,405
Speaker 2: Another thing you want people to know that's on the

813
00:38:44,445 --> 00:38:48,205
Speaker 2: list is that your feelings about not being a mother change.

814
00:38:48,525 --> 00:38:51,405
Speaker 2: And you talk about in your thirties it still felt

815
00:38:51,405 --> 00:38:53,965
Speaker 2: a bit fraught and you perhaps had to justify it

816
00:38:54,005 --> 00:38:55,845
Speaker 2: and because there was, as you say, there's still that

817
00:38:55,885 --> 00:38:59,565
Speaker 2: opportunity to change your mind and questioning have I made

818
00:38:59,565 --> 00:39:02,045
Speaker 2: the right decision? Okay? Do I still not want kids? Okay?

819
00:39:02,045 --> 00:39:04,245
Speaker 2: How about tomorrow? What about next week? Well, I still

820
00:39:04,245 --> 00:39:07,125
Speaker 2: not want kids. Then then in your forties you said

821
00:39:07,285 --> 00:39:10,965
Speaker 2: you felt relieved, and then how do you feel now

822
00:39:11,045 --> 00:39:12,525
Speaker 2: in your mid forties.

823
00:39:12,605 --> 00:39:15,325
Speaker 3: I don't even think about it. It's not anything apart

824
00:39:15,325 --> 00:39:17,805
Speaker 3: from I knew we were having this conversation, and I

825
00:39:17,845 --> 00:39:20,005
Speaker 3: actually had to remind myself, Okay, well what are my

826
00:39:20,085 --> 00:39:23,685
Speaker 3: thoughts about motherhood? Because actually it's just not a thing.

827
00:39:23,725 --> 00:39:26,005
Speaker 3: It just doesn't occupy my mind at all.

828
00:39:26,045 --> 00:39:29,285
Speaker 2: Now. You used a word though that I found really interesting,

829
00:39:29,965 --> 00:39:33,965
Speaker 2: and it's proud. You feel proud? Can you remember what

830
00:39:34,005 --> 00:39:35,205
Speaker 2: that word means in this?

831
00:39:35,405 --> 00:39:38,445
Speaker 3: I think I feel proud in that everything that I

832
00:39:38,605 --> 00:39:40,365
Speaker 3: thought about, which was how am I going to build

833
00:39:40,405 --> 00:39:42,685
Speaker 3: a life, how am I going to have purpose? How

834
00:39:42,685 --> 00:39:44,445
Speaker 3: am I going to have a narrative to other people

835
00:39:44,485 --> 00:39:46,805
Speaker 3: about why I chose not to be a mother? I

836
00:39:46,925 --> 00:39:49,125
Speaker 3: feel like I've wrapped a lot of that up now

837
00:39:49,165 --> 00:39:51,925
Speaker 3: and I feel like, I mean, who knows, things can change,

838
00:39:52,125 --> 00:39:55,245
Speaker 3: but I feel like I've reached a place where I'm

839
00:39:55,285 --> 00:39:59,365
Speaker 3: happy or certainly content. I feel pretty full. I have

840
00:39:59,565 --> 00:40:03,285
Speaker 3: good relationships which are alternative, perhaps relationships to those some

841
00:40:03,565 --> 00:40:05,605
Speaker 3: you know, forty five year old woman would ordinarily have

842
00:40:05,645 --> 00:40:07,645
Speaker 3: at this point in a life. And I suppose I

843
00:40:07,645 --> 00:40:11,365
Speaker 3: feel proud that I made a decision and that has

844
00:40:11,445 --> 00:40:14,565
Speaker 3: helped some other people. And actually I'm able to show

845
00:40:14,685 --> 00:40:17,805
Speaker 3: that actually not being a mother isn't going to define

846
00:40:17,805 --> 00:40:19,645
Speaker 3: your life, because that's the other thing I worried about

847
00:40:19,645 --> 00:40:21,965
Speaker 3: not being a mother would define my life. And of

848
00:40:22,005 --> 00:40:25,165
Speaker 3: course what I'm proud of is it really doesn't. It

849
00:40:25,205 --> 00:40:29,125
Speaker 3: actually becomes after a certain age, very immateial really finds

850
00:40:29,165 --> 00:40:32,045
Speaker 3: your life is what you choose to build around your life.

851
00:40:32,245 --> 00:40:35,125
Speaker 3: So I think I feel proud of all of those things.

852
00:40:35,165 --> 00:40:39,365
Speaker 2: Actually, another thing on the list that you say people

853
00:40:39,405 --> 00:40:42,405
Speaker 2: should know is that people will be less awkward around you,

854
00:40:42,925 --> 00:40:46,165
Speaker 2: And you talk about the difference between thirties and mid forties,

855
00:40:46,205 --> 00:40:49,805
Speaker 2: which we've touched on, that there's less of that oh

856
00:40:49,845 --> 00:40:53,525
Speaker 2: are you okay? Why like that idea that at forty

857
00:40:53,605 --> 00:40:56,805
Speaker 2: five it's probably more likely to be a scar than

858
00:40:56,805 --> 00:41:00,485
Speaker 2: a wound. Whatever, that your reasons for not having children,

859
00:41:00,485 --> 00:41:03,925
Speaker 2: whether they were proactive or they were sort of thrust

860
00:41:04,045 --> 00:41:06,565
Speaker 2: upon you. Is that what you've noticed that there are

861
00:41:06,605 --> 00:41:08,765
Speaker 2: less of those probing questions.

862
00:41:09,365 --> 00:41:11,245
Speaker 3: I don't go to many dinner parties, but the truth

863
00:41:11,325 --> 00:41:13,725
Speaker 3: is it's not up for common Nobody asked me anymore.

864
00:41:14,125 --> 00:41:16,325
Speaker 3: I imagine new people think I'm a woman of a

865
00:41:16,325 --> 00:41:18,485
Speaker 3: certain age, so probably I have older children. They just

866
00:41:18,525 --> 00:41:21,365
Speaker 3: don't ask and those people that do know me and

867
00:41:21,445 --> 00:41:24,525
Speaker 3: know that I chose not to have children, the concept

868
00:41:24,605 --> 00:41:27,605
Speaker 3: of do you ever regret it? Nobody ever over asked me.

869
00:41:27,845 --> 00:41:29,805
Speaker 3: What I do get a lot of is people going

870
00:41:30,205 --> 00:41:31,965
Speaker 3: what do do any time where you're going away? What

871
00:41:32,085 --> 00:41:33,485
Speaker 3: you know? So I get a lot of that.

872
00:41:33,685 --> 00:41:33,965
Speaker 2: I think.

873
00:41:33,965 --> 00:41:36,845
Speaker 3: The other thing that I get, actually, which is interesting,

874
00:41:37,085 --> 00:41:39,245
Speaker 3: and I wonder if this is because I'm not a mother,

875
00:41:39,885 --> 00:41:42,845
Speaker 3: is I get a lot of women, mothers talking very

876
00:41:42,925 --> 00:41:46,485
Speaker 3: freely to me about being a mother. And I think,

877
00:41:46,605 --> 00:41:50,005
Speaker 3: I'm not sure, but I think it's because there's no

878
00:41:50,045 --> 00:41:53,805
Speaker 3: possibility of judgment because I possibly, however they feel towards

879
00:41:53,885 --> 00:41:56,725
Speaker 3: their child, nothing's going to shock me because I've got

880
00:41:56,725 --> 00:42:00,005
Speaker 3: nothing to compare it to. So that is actually not

881
00:42:00,125 --> 00:42:02,365
Speaker 3: something I don't think was on my list. But actually

882
00:42:02,565 --> 00:42:04,645
Speaker 3: that's a very privileged thing I think I have, which

883
00:42:04,645 --> 00:42:06,805
Speaker 3: is I find a lot of women because I've spoken

884
00:42:06,845 --> 00:42:08,645
Speaker 3: to a lot of women over the years about motherhood,

885
00:42:08,645 --> 00:42:11,165
Speaker 3: and I feel that as a sort of very open

886
00:42:11,205 --> 00:42:14,845
Speaker 3: dialogue which might not I feel it might not be

887
00:42:14,925 --> 00:42:18,005
Speaker 3: available to them with other mothers, because of course, other mothers,

888
00:42:18,005 --> 00:42:21,125
Speaker 3: I imagine, bring so much of their role of being

889
00:42:21,125 --> 00:42:23,885
Speaker 3: a mother, so anything you're going to say. So there

890
00:42:23,885 --> 00:42:26,565
Speaker 3: was a woman I spoke to recently. I interviewed her

891
00:42:26,605 --> 00:42:29,445
Speaker 3: actually for my substack, and she loves a child, and

892
00:42:29,485 --> 00:42:32,525
Speaker 3: I think that goes without question. But she talked about,

893
00:42:32,605 --> 00:42:36,605
Speaker 3: you know, moments of her son was heavily autistic, hearing

894
00:42:36,605 --> 00:42:38,885
Speaker 3: a car one day drive past and he was outside

895
00:42:38,885 --> 00:42:41,085
Speaker 3: in the road, and she thought for one moment he'd

896
00:42:41,085 --> 00:42:42,325
Speaker 3: be run over, and then there was a part of

897
00:42:42,365 --> 00:42:44,725
Speaker 3: that went life would be much easier, and then the

898
00:42:44,765 --> 00:42:48,125
Speaker 3: thought went, but I don't think had I been a mother,

899
00:42:48,205 --> 00:42:50,045
Speaker 3: it might have been as easy for her to talk

900
00:42:50,125 --> 00:42:53,285
Speaker 3: to me about having those momentary dark thoughts.

901
00:42:54,445 --> 00:42:57,285
Speaker 2: That was an incredible piece that you published on your substack.

902
00:42:57,805 --> 00:43:01,005
Speaker 2: I think her name was Jill, and she said, to

903
00:43:01,045 --> 00:43:05,165
Speaker 2: be honest, my son has ruined my life, but he

904
00:43:05,205 --> 00:43:08,565
Speaker 2: has also enriched it in ways beyond measure. And I

905
00:43:09,125 --> 00:43:11,925
Speaker 2: love the level of honesty that she could have. That

906
00:43:12,045 --> 00:43:15,085
Speaker 2: idea of you know, women feeling that they could confess

907
00:43:15,085 --> 00:43:20,205
Speaker 2: to you about regretting motherhood, which is another data point.

908
00:43:20,245 --> 00:43:22,845
Speaker 2: I guess that it's not always happily ever after, It's

909
00:43:22,885 --> 00:43:24,845
Speaker 2: not always a wonderful thing. There are a lot of

910
00:43:25,485 --> 00:43:28,205
Speaker 2: women with children who would be looking at your life

911
00:43:28,245 --> 00:43:31,365
Speaker 2: and feeling incredibly envious of the choice that you made

912
00:43:31,405 --> 00:43:34,125
Speaker 2: and wishing either that they'd made the same choice or

913
00:43:34,125 --> 00:43:36,245
Speaker 2: that they'd had the opportunity to make the same choice

914
00:43:36,285 --> 00:43:39,805
Speaker 2: as you. And that's taboo in our society.

915
00:43:39,125 --> 00:43:42,365
Speaker 3: Because of course, not being a mother is not a

916
00:43:42,365 --> 00:43:45,445
Speaker 3: possibility for a lot of women. I mean, when I

917
00:43:45,485 --> 00:43:48,045
Speaker 3: put a call out, I was very lucky to find Jill,

918
00:43:48,085 --> 00:43:50,405
Speaker 3: who I think had done so much work on herself.

919
00:43:50,925 --> 00:43:55,205
Speaker 3: She spoke with such absolute clarity about that that he'd

920
00:43:55,285 --> 00:43:57,365
Speaker 3: ruined a life, but also he changed in enriched in

921
00:43:57,445 --> 00:43:59,125
Speaker 3: a way she could never And that, of course is

922
00:43:59,125 --> 00:44:01,645
Speaker 3: the dichotomy, isn't it. And that's why when I put

923
00:44:01,645 --> 00:44:03,365
Speaker 3: a call out saying, is that anybody who will speak

924
00:44:03,405 --> 00:44:07,245
Speaker 3: to me about regretting motherhood? Every single person started it

925
00:44:07,285 --> 00:44:09,125
Speaker 3: by going, I love my children, but.

926
00:44:10,685 --> 00:44:13,725
Speaker 2: So things can be true. I love you ruining my life, right?

927
00:44:14,165 --> 00:44:16,165
Speaker 3: But I remember I had one woman and I never

928
00:44:16,205 --> 00:44:17,685
Speaker 3: got in touch with that. We sort of never were

929
00:44:17,725 --> 00:44:20,365
Speaker 3: able to cross paths. But she just said I feel

930
00:44:20,405 --> 00:44:22,285
Speaker 3: trapped in my life, and that was it. I think

931
00:44:22,325 --> 00:44:25,125
Speaker 3: sometimes people just need the space to be able to

932
00:44:25,165 --> 00:44:27,925
Speaker 3: say that, and then you know, to let out these

933
00:44:27,925 --> 00:44:32,045
Speaker 3: thoughts and then retract. But I think the interesting thing

934
00:44:32,085 --> 00:44:34,805
Speaker 3: for me is, and actually this is thanks to mothers.

935
00:44:35,845 --> 00:44:39,645
Speaker 3: Is that because mothers like Jill and actually so many

936
00:44:39,725 --> 00:44:41,645
Speaker 3: since you know, I'm very lucky, I'm forty five, so

937
00:44:41,685 --> 00:44:45,365
Speaker 3: I've had sort of twenty years of this conversation around

938
00:44:45,365 --> 00:44:48,325
Speaker 3: motherhood not being easy. I don't think that was probably

939
00:44:48,325 --> 00:44:52,285
Speaker 3: available to say my mother's generation. But with mothers talking

940
00:44:52,325 --> 00:44:55,885
Speaker 3: about that, actually it can be hard, that helps other

941
00:44:55,925 --> 00:44:58,565
Speaker 3: women make the decision about the realities of what motherhood

942
00:44:58,605 --> 00:45:01,645
Speaker 3: looks like. And I think Jill spoke about this. You know,

943
00:45:01,725 --> 00:45:03,005
Speaker 3: Jill was a little bit older than me. I think

944
00:45:03,045 --> 00:45:05,685
Speaker 3: she was in a mid fifties. She had an idea

945
00:45:05,805 --> 00:45:07,845
Speaker 3: that had been sold to her about what motherhood was.

946
00:45:07,885 --> 00:45:10,165
Speaker 3: It was prams and it was you know, getting together

947
00:45:10,205 --> 00:45:12,525
Speaker 3: with other mothers and it was like, yeah, but there's

948
00:45:12,525 --> 00:45:14,725
Speaker 3: got to be a whole other narrative, but that nobody

949
00:45:14,805 --> 00:45:17,605
Speaker 3: was telling it. So I think that's where I feel

950
00:45:17,685 --> 00:45:20,165
Speaker 3: very strongly about that. And that's down to brave mothers

951
00:45:20,165 --> 00:45:23,525
Speaker 3: who are willing, who know that talking about the dark

952
00:45:23,565 --> 00:45:25,325
Speaker 3: side of motherhood does not in any way in the

953
00:45:25,365 --> 00:45:27,925
Speaker 3: gate how they feel about their child. So you know

954
00:45:28,325 --> 00:45:29,605
Speaker 3: really important, I think.

955
00:45:31,085 --> 00:45:34,045
Speaker 2: And just finally on your list, you will get obsessed

956
00:45:34,085 --> 00:45:37,685
Speaker 2: with your dog. It's a cliche. But it's a cliche

957
00:45:37,725 --> 00:45:39,965
Speaker 2: for a reason, right, tell me it's a cliche.

958
00:45:40,045 --> 00:45:42,285
Speaker 3: I mean, of course, the devastating thing is is that

959
00:45:42,525 --> 00:45:43,565
Speaker 3: they're gone too soon.

960
00:45:45,045 --> 00:45:47,605
Speaker 2: It's another kind of empty nest. It's like empty dogbeds.

961
00:45:48,045 --> 00:45:51,205
Speaker 3: Ken of these constant empty dog beds go through our lives. So,

962
00:45:51,725 --> 00:45:53,445
Speaker 3: I mean, I do remember, but I don't know if

963
00:45:53,485 --> 00:45:55,445
Speaker 3: she was half joking. A friend said to me, you know,

964
00:45:55,565 --> 00:45:57,645
Speaker 3: far if I haven't got the dog, she's got a dog. Now,

965
00:45:57,645 --> 00:45:59,565
Speaker 3: if I've got the dog before I had the kids,

966
00:46:00,085 --> 00:46:02,125
Speaker 3: may not have had the kids.

967
00:46:03,485 --> 00:46:07,485
Speaker 2: Funnily enough, when your kids become older, that's when the

968
00:46:07,525 --> 00:46:10,565
Speaker 2: dog has its time to shine in. Or you need

969
00:46:10,605 --> 00:46:13,525
Speaker 2: a new dog because as someone wants, right, if you

970
00:46:14,125 --> 00:46:17,045
Speaker 2: have teenagers and you want someone to be happy to

971
00:46:17,085 --> 00:46:18,485
Speaker 2: see you when you walk in the door.

972
00:46:18,325 --> 00:46:20,885
Speaker 3: Get a dog. That's totally right. You know, the dogs

973
00:46:21,005 --> 00:46:24,085
Speaker 3: don't fill they're different. People go, oh, do they get

974
00:46:24,085 --> 00:46:26,845
Speaker 3: dogs because they didn't have children. It's like, no, it's

975
00:46:26,885 --> 00:46:27,645
Speaker 3: a different hole.

976
00:46:29,285 --> 00:46:32,365
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's what you say in the list about you

977
00:46:32,445 --> 00:46:34,965
Speaker 2: get to lean into other relationships in your life, right,

978
00:46:35,405 --> 00:46:38,085
Speaker 2: whether it's with your dogs, whether it's with friends, whether

979
00:46:38,125 --> 00:46:42,405
Speaker 2: it's with your parents, there's a space that perhaps people

980
00:46:42,445 --> 00:46:43,365
Speaker 2: with children don't.

981
00:46:43,285 --> 00:46:46,285
Speaker 3: Think that's right. And I think that's the thing. You're

982
00:46:46,325 --> 00:46:49,765
Speaker 3: constantly looking, as you should be in life, to fill

983
00:46:49,805 --> 00:46:51,805
Speaker 3: the spaces. It's like, what's going to fill the space.

984
00:46:51,845 --> 00:46:54,525
Speaker 3: Because I think that's what when those people would say

985
00:46:54,565 --> 00:46:56,365
Speaker 3: to me, life is long, what you're going to do

986
00:46:56,405 --> 00:46:59,725
Speaker 3: with it. As long as you're filling the spaces, then

987
00:46:59,805 --> 00:47:01,685
Speaker 3: life is going to be good. And I think that's

988
00:47:01,725 --> 00:47:03,965
Speaker 3: the point. I think it's those who maybe decide not

989
00:47:03,965 --> 00:47:06,605
Speaker 3: to have children and then there's nothing, because I do

990
00:47:06,645 --> 00:47:08,365
Speaker 3: think you need to think about, even whether you're a

991
00:47:08,405 --> 00:47:10,565
Speaker 3: mother or not a mother, what's going to fill the

992
00:47:10,565 --> 00:47:12,965
Speaker 3: space of life? And I think that's just an important

993
00:47:13,045 --> 00:47:16,005
Speaker 3: question you need to ask yourself, regardless of whether you're

994
00:47:16,085 --> 00:47:18,645
Speaker 3: a mother or not. And I've definitely spent the last

995
00:47:18,845 --> 00:47:22,845
Speaker 3: five years thinking very keyly about that, which I think

996
00:47:22,885 --> 00:47:24,765
Speaker 3: everybody should anyway. I think I've just come to it

997
00:47:24,765 --> 00:47:28,125
Speaker 3: a lot earlier. And I suspect maybe mothers once the

998
00:47:28,125 --> 00:47:30,925
Speaker 3: teenagers have left the house, they start thinking about it too.

999
00:47:31,365 --> 00:47:35,965
Speaker 2: Thank you so much that was just a mirror. I

1000
00:47:36,005 --> 00:47:38,165
Speaker 2: love that conversation, and I think what I liked about

1001
00:47:38,205 --> 00:47:41,445
Speaker 2: it most is that I don't know. On the surface,

1002
00:47:41,485 --> 00:47:43,805
Speaker 2: it's about the question of whether or not to have kids,

1003
00:47:43,845 --> 00:47:46,685
Speaker 2: and about as far as personal journey with that decision,

1004
00:47:46,725 --> 00:47:50,525
Speaker 2: But really this conversation is about a woman making the

1005
00:47:50,685 --> 00:47:54,845
Speaker 2: very deliberate decision to get to know herself and her

1006
00:47:54,885 --> 00:47:58,845
Speaker 2: identity as well as she possibly can, and have that

1007
00:47:58,925 --> 00:48:04,205
Speaker 2: identity exist separately from what society expects of us and

1008
00:48:04,245 --> 00:48:07,085
Speaker 2: perhaps what we internalize about what it means to be

1009
00:48:07,125 --> 00:48:12,085
Speaker 2: a woman, what we expect ourselves because of that. And

1010
00:48:12,125 --> 00:48:14,125
Speaker 2: I really love that, because as women, we give a

1011
00:48:14,125 --> 00:48:16,725
Speaker 2: lot of ourselves to other people, and that's true for

1012
00:48:16,765 --> 00:48:19,405
Speaker 2: women who have kids and for women who don't, and

1013
00:48:19,445 --> 00:48:23,205
Speaker 2: so often in history and still today, we define ourselves

1014
00:48:23,405 --> 00:48:26,485
Speaker 2: by who we are to other people, like we're a wife,

1015
00:48:26,485 --> 00:48:28,645
Speaker 2: we're a mother, where a daughter, We're a friend, we're

1016
00:48:28,685 --> 00:48:32,525
Speaker 2: a sister, And I think Fara is so many of

1017
00:48:32,565 --> 00:48:35,325
Speaker 2: those things. But she's offering us all this kind of

1018
00:48:35,325 --> 00:48:41,325
Speaker 2: imitation to think about our identity apart from what society

1019
00:48:41,365 --> 00:48:44,125
Speaker 2: expects of us and apart from what we're told we

1020
00:48:44,165 --> 00:48:47,605
Speaker 2: should be as women and all of that really begins

1021
00:48:47,645 --> 00:48:51,125
Speaker 2: with honesty and vulnerability, which is how Fara shows to

1022
00:48:51,165 --> 00:48:54,605
Speaker 2: approach her life. And she's such a good writer. People

1023
00:48:54,725 --> 00:48:56,805
Speaker 2: tell her things like really personal things, And if you

1024
00:48:56,845 --> 00:48:58,685
Speaker 2: want to read more of her work, I'm popping a

1025
00:48:58,725 --> 00:49:01,365
Speaker 2: link to her substack in the show notes. And what

1026
00:49:01,445 --> 00:49:04,565
Speaker 2: I hope you take away, and what I've taken away,

1027
00:49:04,845 --> 00:49:09,165
Speaker 2: is that for every woman who doesn't have children, there

1028
00:49:09,205 --> 00:49:12,165
Speaker 2: is a very distinct story, and it's often a very

1029
00:49:12,205 --> 00:49:15,605
Speaker 2: personal story, and it's often a very complex story and

1030
00:49:15,645 --> 00:49:19,165
Speaker 2: a layered story, and it's not necessarily yours to know.

1031
00:49:20,125 --> 00:49:22,365
Speaker 2: And here's me saying that, as the nosiest person you'll

1032
00:49:22,405 --> 00:49:25,565
Speaker 2: ever meet, don't ever assume, and I'm talking to myself here,

1033
00:49:26,245 --> 00:49:30,045
Speaker 2: that someone owes you an explanation for the choice that

1034
00:49:30,045 --> 00:49:32,405
Speaker 2: they've made in their life, whether it's having kids. No

1035
00:49:32,445 --> 00:49:35,005
Speaker 2: one asks anyone, oh, why did you choose to have kids?

1036
00:49:35,325 --> 00:49:38,045
Speaker 2: It's just seen as the default. And maybe we need

1037
00:49:38,085 --> 00:49:41,805
Speaker 2: to just start thinking a little bit more, Noah, before

1038
00:49:41,845 --> 00:49:44,965
Speaker 2: we ask that question to women who have lives that

1039
00:49:45,005 --> 00:49:48,085
Speaker 2: look different to our own. This episode was produced by

1040
00:49:48,205 --> 00:49:51,525
Speaker 2: Naima Brown, the sound production by Leah Paorges. I'm mea

1041
00:49:51,565 --> 00:49:54,565
Speaker 2: Friedman thanks for listening to my croaky voice. I'm going

1042
00:49:54,645 --> 00:49:56,485
Speaker 2: to go and rest it and speak to you soon.