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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on HI. It's Claire Murphy here back in

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Speaker 1: your feed for the weekend to tell you about something

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Speaker 1: you might have seen in the headlines of late and

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Speaker 1: that is the release of a young woman who was

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Speaker 1: involved in what they refer to as the Slender Man stabbing.

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Speaker 1: This happened back in twenty fourteen, and the case made

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Speaker 1: international headlines when two twelve year old girls in Wisconsin

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Speaker 1: lured their best friend into the woods and stabbed her

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Speaker 1: nineteen times. It was in order to appease an internet

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Speaker 1: horror character known as slender Man. But nearly a decade later,

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Speaker 1: as Morgan Geyser walks free from psychiatric care, we're finally

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Speaker 1: learning the devastating truth about untreated childhood, mental illness, a

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Speaker 1: broken justice system, and how America's obsession with trying children

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Speaker 1: as adults changed three young lives forever. In this episode

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Speaker 1: of True Crime Conversations, Jemma Bart sat down with journalist

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Speaker 1: Kathleen Hale. Kathleen spent seven years investstigating the Slender Man case,

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Speaker 1: determined to uncover the complex truth that got lost in

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Speaker 1: the media circus, not just what happened that day in

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Speaker 1: the woods, but why it happened at all.

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Speaker 2: It's a Saturday morning in Waukeshire, Wisconsin, in May twenty fourteen,

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Speaker 2: and friends Bella, Morgan, and Anissa are playing at a

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Speaker 2: local park after spending the night at Morgan's for a

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Speaker 2: birthday sleepover. It was a lovely afternoon. The girls went skating,

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Speaker 2: they played the sims, giggled endlessly, and ate cheese puffs,

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Speaker 2: just regular twelve year old girl stuff. But Anissa and

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Speaker 2: Morgan had a secret plan, a plan to kill Bella

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Speaker 2: to appease a fictional character called slender Man, who they'd

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Speaker 2: read about online and planned to run away with. It

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Speaker 2: was supposed to happen at two am, then five thirty am,

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Speaker 2: then nine thirty am, but the girls keep chickening out.

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Speaker 2: Bella keeps telling them no when they try and get

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Speaker 2: her to lie down or pretend to be asleep, or

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Speaker 2: to sit in the corner. It's harder than they anticipated. Finally,

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Speaker 2: during a game of hide and seek at the park,

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Speaker 2: Morgan takes charge. She straddles her best friend in the

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Speaker 2: dirt and tells her I'm sorry. I have to do

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Speaker 2: this because it's the only way to save my life.

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Speaker 2: Someone from Creepy Pasta is stalking me. She stabs Bella

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Speaker 2: nineteen times and flees with Anissa by her side, bleeding.

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Speaker 2: A gravely injured Bella drags herself into a clearing, where

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Speaker 2: she's spotted by a passing cyclist. You up on a

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Speaker 2: twelve year old female two appears to be stabbed.

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Speaker 3: Stab Are you with this twelve year old female?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: She says she's having trouble breathing. She said she was

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Speaker 3: stabbed multiple times, sab multiple times.

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Speaker 2: As news of the stabbing lands in the inboxes of

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Speaker 2: newsrooms globally, it becomes clear very quickly, this is a story.

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Speaker 2: Worry that the whole world is about to have an

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Speaker 2: opinion on. I'm Jemma Bath and this is true Crime.

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Speaker 2: Conversations Amoma mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes

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Speaker 2: by speaking to the people who know the most about them.

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Speaker 2: Slenderman is a creepy, faceless character with long arms and

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Speaker 2: legs and black tentacles that protrude from his back. He

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Speaker 2: wears a black suit and his victims are pulled into

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Speaker 2: a hypnotized state utterly helpless against him. By twenty fourteen,

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Speaker 2: he was viral, gaining notoriety, in particular on a site

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Speaker 2: called creepypasta dot com, a place for amateur horror stories

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Speaker 2: and young adult content. That's where twelve year olds Morgan

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Speaker 2: Geyser and Anissa Wire found him and became obsessed with him.

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Speaker 2: Morgan had been seeing and hearing things, and they were

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Speaker 2: afraid he had control of him mind and was coming

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Speaker 2: to kill her family. They had to take action. They

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Speaker 2: had to kill someone first, then then run away to

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Speaker 2: Slender Mansion with him and become his proxies. It was

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Speaker 2: the stuff of magic and fantasy for two very young girls,

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Speaker 2: but it was intermixed with severe mental illness on Morgan's

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Speaker 2: part and an undiagnosed disability and mental health condition on

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Speaker 2: a Nissa's side. But it's those details, the mental health

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Speaker 2: of these tween girls that got left behind in twenty

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Speaker 2: fourteen and the years that followed as the girls were

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Speaker 2: tried as adults and prosecuted with the world's eyes and

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Speaker 2: judgment upon them. When journalist Kathleen Hale decided to write

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Speaker 2: about this case, she wanted to tell the whole story.

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Speaker 2: The story that got lost in the media, the story

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Speaker 2: that not only honored the victim and shared her terror

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Speaker 2: and recovery, but tried to understand what actually happened, why

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Speaker 2: it happened. The result was her book slender Man, A

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Speaker 2: Tragic Story of Online obsession and mental Illness, and Kathleen

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Speaker 2: joins us. Now, Kathleen, firstly, can you take us inside

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Speaker 2: the obsession that was slender Man? In twenty fourteen ish?

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Speaker 2: It was pretty huge online, wasn't it.

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Speaker 4: It had been about five years in twenty fourteen since

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Speaker 4: Slenderman first emerged online in two thousand and nine as

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Speaker 4: part of like a photoshop contest in the paranormal sort

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Speaker 4: of message boards of a horror forum. And he was

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Speaker 4: born basically in these doctored photos that people that someone

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Speaker 4: made of their children playing and having a good time,

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Speaker 4: but they didn't notice that from afar was a very tall,

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Speaker 4: sort of thin spectral figure watching them, stocking them, and

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Speaker 4: it sort of just captured the attention of horror fans

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Speaker 4: online who are beginning to congregate in different forums, and

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Speaker 4: by the time this case rolled around in twenty fourteen,

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Speaker 4: he had become a semi popular character on creepypasta Dot

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Speaker 4: com which was a fan fiction horror site where people

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Speaker 4: could read each other's amateur horror stories and sort of

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Speaker 4: borrow characters from each other and write original horror fiction.

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Speaker 4: And he was one of many characters featured on the site.

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Speaker 4: And actually, ironically, he wasn't super super popular in twenty fourteen,

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Speaker 4: not as we know him to be now. It wasn't

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Speaker 4: until a crime, a heinous, globally and famous crime was

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Speaker 4: committed in his name that he really became the popular

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Speaker 4: sort of horror icon that people know him as today.

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Speaker 2: And the idea of him as this kind of horror

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Speaker 2: character was that too, did he stalk paople, manipulate people,

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Speaker 2: kill people? What was his deal?

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Speaker 4: So his sort of powers are more about controlling other

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Speaker 4: people and having them do his bidding. He in some

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Speaker 4: stories he is violent, but for the most part his

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Speaker 4: narratives really revolve around him using mind control to inspire

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Speaker 4: other people to.

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Speaker 3: Commit violence in his name.

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Speaker 4: And so there's a lot of scary stories about him,

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Speaker 4: you know, getting in the heads of people and making

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Speaker 4: them kill their whole families, and then when they're all done,

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Speaker 4: he comes and he takes them away. But that's basically

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Speaker 4: his number one power is mind control and getting other

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Speaker 4: people to kill for him. He doesn't have to do

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Speaker 4: it himself because he can. He can worm his way

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Speaker 4: into the minds of vulnerable people, and that's how he

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Speaker 4: enacts violence.

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Speaker 2: And Creepy Pasta it's kind of just like a forum, right,

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Speaker 2: a website.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a it's a website and it's in twenty fourteen.

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Speaker 3: It was very low fi like. It basically looked like.

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Speaker 4: A middle schooler's horror blog, like black background, red words,

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Speaker 4: really sort of simple interface, and in fact, a lot

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Speaker 4: of the stories on it were written by children, you

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Speaker 4: could just tell. So it was popular among a certain

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Speaker 4: age group. It wasn't sophisticated like you know, Reddit or

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Speaker 4: a place like that.

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Speaker 3: It was. It was a bit dorky, very pg. Thirteen.

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Speaker 4: The submission guidelines were pretty you know, strict. Nothing could

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Speaker 4: have any kind of like sexual overtones. Everything had to

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Speaker 4: be sort of accessible for middle schoolers. It really felt

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Speaker 4: like a site that was catered toward children.

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Speaker 2: Well, I guess that makes sense with a name like

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Speaker 2: Creepy Pasta as well.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know it's Creepy Pasta.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's a great it's a great

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Speaker 4: site name it's a word play on copy and paste,

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Speaker 4: creepy pasta copy and paste, So it's it's evocative of

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Speaker 4: what the site is for, which is to basically copy

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Speaker 4: and paste each other's stories into a new, fresh word document.

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Speaker 4: Take away a lot, add some more of your own,

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Speaker 4: upload it, and know the cycle continues.

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Speaker 2: Can you tell us about where this crime is set?

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Speaker 2: It was a town or city in Wisconsin that you're

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Speaker 2: actually very familiar with.

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Speaker 4: Right, yes, I grew up nearby. The crime took place

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Speaker 4: in Waukeshaw, Wisconsin, which is one of the three most

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Speaker 4: conservative counties in all of Wisconsin, which is sort of

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Speaker 4: saying something people who are not from Wisconsin or not

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Speaker 4: from the United States to really understand it. I guess

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Speaker 4: it reminds me a lot of the Shirley Jackson story.

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Speaker 4: The lottery people are really, really, really friendly, but there

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Speaker 4: are these very strong Gothic undertones, lots of secrets, lots

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Speaker 4: of vengeful attitudes when lines are crossed. But you know,

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Speaker 4: just in terms of what it looks like so that

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Speaker 4: people can picture it, it's extremely suburban, extremely pristine, clean white,

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Speaker 4: and the sort of extreme far right political culture of

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Speaker 4: this locale cannot be overstated. There's a lot of trump

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Speaker 4: Ism there, and when this case was first unfolding, it

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Speaker 4: was two years before he won the twenty sixteen election,

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Speaker 4: and all of the forces that were poised to put

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Speaker 4: him into the White House were very much alive and

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Speaker 4: electric and brewing in the state at that time. It's

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Speaker 4: the sort of place where people are very, very wary

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Speaker 4: of outsiders. There's a lot of sort of quiet racism,

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Speaker 4: and there's a sort of misplaced idea that the reason

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Speaker 4: that Wakasha is so safe is because of these tough

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Speaker 4: on crime laws as they're called in the United States,

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Speaker 4: which you know, which is you know, not true, But

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Speaker 4: it's a sort of self reinforcing ideology that things are

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Speaker 4: safe because things are the way they are, and so

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Speaker 4: that's sort of what the environment is like.

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Speaker 3: But it's beautiful. It's a beautiful, beautiful place.

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Speaker 4: It's a place where you can have a really good

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Speaker 4: life at little cost to yourself, so long as you

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Speaker 4: fit in to what everyone thinks, you know, you should be.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like the kind of place where a crime

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Speaker 2: like this would be particularly shocking.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I think that the prior to this, in

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Speaker 4: all of Waukesha, there's a lot of people there. There

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Speaker 4: had been less than one murder per year, and this

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Speaker 4: was not a murder case. It would be widely mistaken

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Speaker 4: as a murder case. But just to give you an

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Speaker 4: idea of how safe and crime free the area was.

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Speaker 4: Like any suburban place in the US, it had its

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Speaker 4: issues with drugs, you know, there were things like that

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Speaker 4: going on, but in terms of violent crime, no, there's nothing.

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Speaker 4: This was the kind of place where something like this

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Speaker 4: would never No one would have expected this to happen.

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Speaker 2: It took you seven years or so to write your

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Speaker 2: book on this. How did you find writing it? Approaching

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Speaker 2: the people in the story, trying to gain their trusted

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Speaker 2: it helped being as somewhat local.

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Speaker 4: It helped me having been local. Once they would speak

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Speaker 4: to me. I mean a group so close to where

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Speaker 4: this took place, that late that the girls involved in

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Speaker 4: the story and I we had a lot of the

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Speaker 4: same sort of childhood touched ones the same place where

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Speaker 4: these three girls spent Morgan and Anissa's last night of freedom.

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Speaker 4: That was the roller rink where I first held hands

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Speaker 4: with the crush. Like, we had these sort of common

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Speaker 4: cultural monuments, and so once somebody would speak to me

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Speaker 4: and once maybe they heard the way I spoke and

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Speaker 4: they could understand that I understood them on this sort

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Speaker 4: of deeper level. I do think that that helped us.

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Speaker 4: I was looking at it from the point of view

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Speaker 4: of not just this was a horrible crime. I was

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Speaker 4: also looking at it from the point of view of

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Speaker 4: this is a horrible crime that we committed on the

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Speaker 4: so called criminals involved in the case. The judicial process

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Speaker 4: that unfolded was a circus, and the laws that came

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Speaker 4: crashing down on these young girls they need to be

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Speaker 4: revoked and amended. And I just couldn't believe what was happening,

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Speaker 4: and nobody really wanted to look at it from that

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Speaker 4: point of view. To them, my having any compassion for

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Speaker 4: the other two children who were involved in the crime

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Speaker 4: the assailants was the same as saying that the victim's

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Speaker 4: experience didn't matter, which is not how I felt at all.

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Speaker 4: But unfortunately, in the US, were in this place where

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Speaker 4: the two things cannot be.

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Speaker 3: True, right a lot compassion.

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Speaker 4: You can't have compassion for a victim and have compassion

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Speaker 4: for her attackers. Those two ideas seemed mutually exclusive to me.

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Speaker 4: To the people that I talked to, so it was

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Speaker 4: very hard getting people to talk to me, but Morgan's

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Speaker 4: family opened up to me and I got to speak

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Speaker 4: to Morgan, and from there, just because of all of

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Speaker 4: the extensive documentation on the case, thousands and thousands of

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Speaker 4: pages of interviews, etc. And all of the previous reporting,

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Speaker 4: I was able to very laboriously and as you mentioned,

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Speaker 4: slowly build a factual timeline of what had happened, which

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Speaker 4: was shocking because the truth of the story was so

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Speaker 4: at odds with the myth that had grown around it.

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Speaker 4: An urban legend had grown around the case, just as

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Speaker 4: the case had grown around an urban legend, and so

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Speaker 4: the true story was almost I mean, it was so

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Speaker 4: much more shocking than what had been reported in the

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Speaker 4: media prior to that.

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Speaker 2: Well, you mentioned Morgan, and she's the reason that this

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Speaker 2: case is back in the headlines again. She was released

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Speaker 2: only a few weeks ago the judge made the decision.

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Speaker 2: So January twenty twenty five, how did you first come

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Speaker 2: to talk to her? And what was she like?

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Speaker 4: I came to talk with her because her mo mom

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Speaker 4: and I had been talking and I got permission from

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Speaker 4: her mom to speak to her, and Morgan was curious

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Speaker 4: about talking to me because she is a writer and

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Speaker 4: an artist, and we talked a lot about her life,

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Speaker 4: but we also talked a lot about her writing. We

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Speaker 4: would have little sort of like creative writing workshops in

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Speaker 4: the hospital cafeteria when I went to go visit her,

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Speaker 4: and she was fifteen when I first met her, and

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Speaker 4: she was a child. She was so childlike, so seft spoken,

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Speaker 4: so self loathing, so sweet, and so vulnerable. And at

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Speaker 4: that point she had been taken away from her family

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Speaker 4: for three years and had not hugged her parents outside

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Speaker 4: of a legal or medical setting for that entire time.

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Speaker 4: She'd actually been prohibited. She hadn't been allowed to hug

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Speaker 4: them for four months after her arrest when she was

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Speaker 4: twelve years old, so it was and they had never

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Speaker 4: seen where she slept. I mean, all these obvious things

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Speaker 4: about being incarcerated, but she was on an adult ward

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Speaker 4: at the age of I mean, she was so young,

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Speaker 4: so I think that that was sort of for me.

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Speaker 4: The most sort of salient quality that I got from

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Speaker 4: her is just how young she was, and I was

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Speaker 4: shocked by it every time we got together, especially given

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Speaker 4: the context of our meetings. In terms of her personality,

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Speaker 4: she's very smart, can be very funny, very creative, very troubled,

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Speaker 4: and wasn't getting any help at all despite the environment.

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Speaker 3: That she was in.

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Speaker 4: Like you would think, especially in the US, there's a

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Speaker 4: misconception that these kinds of forensic hospitals, which used to

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Speaker 4: be called hospitals for the criminally insane, are more nurturing

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Speaker 4: environments than prisons. I would say they're definitely less dangerous,

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Speaker 4: less physically dangerous than a prison less but that doesn't

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Speaker 4: mean that they're safe. But they're not nurturing. She was

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Speaker 4: receiving almost no therapy, She was receiving no juvenile resources

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Speaker 4: when we met. She was not receiving any education. She

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Speaker 4: had not been in any kind of a classroom setting

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Speaker 4: or received any kind of academic support since sixth grade

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Speaker 4: when she was arrested. And the entire ward, because of

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Speaker 4: the institutionalization in the US in the seventies and eighties,

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Speaker 4: the entire ward was manned not by doctors or nurses,

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Speaker 4: but by these psychiatric care technicians who are entry level.

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Speaker 4: They have no specialized education, they're paid minimum wage, and

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Speaker 4: they're overworked and burnt out, and some of them have

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00:18:04,774 --> 00:18:08,454
Speaker 4: criminal records themselves. And the way that they control people

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Speaker 4: on the board is by using spit hoods, just like

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Speaker 4: last sewing a patient's head with a hood so that

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Speaker 4: they and restraint boards. So everything about this situation was

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Speaker 4: so surreal and unfair. I mean, that's not justice, you know,

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Speaker 4: that's revenge. There's supposed to be two separate things. I

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Speaker 4: can understand why the victim's family in this situation would

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Speaker 4: want Morgan to suffer, but I don't know that the

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Speaker 4: entire judicial system should be built around that that same impulse.

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Speaker 2: Well, especially because the idea of sending someone to a

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Speaker 2: hospital rather than a prison, you would think is to

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Speaker 2: treat them right. But from what I'm hearing, it sounds

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Speaker 2: very old fashioned as well, like like something out of

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Speaker 2: a horror movie.

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Speaker 3: It was something out of a horror movie.

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Speaker 4: The campus was completely open, so I was able to

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Speaker 4: walk around it, and it was a very old hospital

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Speaker 4: that was built in the eighteen nineties. When they first

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Speaker 4: started admitting patients. It was all women at the time.

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Speaker 4: In the eighteen nineties. They were bringing them in for

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Speaker 4: anger and promiscuity and all of this stuff. But the

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Speaker 4: treatments at the time when it first started were very

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Speaker 4: quaint and gentle. It was like Brandy and dancing and gardening,

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Speaker 4: and then the institution over the years, it just it

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Speaker 4: was deformed into this awful, awful place. So there's a dire,

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Speaker 4: dire need for psychiatric hospitals in our country, but because

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Speaker 4: there's no funding for them, a place like whin a Bago,

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Speaker 4: where Morgan spent so many years of her childhood, is

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Speaker 4: basically being turned into a prison and only taking patients

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Speaker 4: found not guilty by reason of insanity, and there's no

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Speaker 4: room for sort of anything else, and there's no resources

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Speaker 4: to even employ full time doctors and nurses in the

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Speaker 4: way that they desperately need to.

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Speaker 2: Did Morgan was she subjected to the split hoods and

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Speaker 2: the being strapped to boards and all of those things

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Speaker 2: that you mentioned.

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Speaker 4: No, she really, i think learned very quickly how to

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Speaker 4: keep her head down and spent a lot of her

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Speaker 4: time feeling really frightened, and she was quite docile because

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Speaker 4: of the heavy duty drugs that they had her on.

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Speaker 3: They had her on.

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Speaker 4: Really heavy duty antipsychotics for a long time. But she

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Speaker 4: was attacked by another patient at the hospital. Everyone knew

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Speaker 4: what she had done, and so that made her sort

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Speaker 4: of a target. She was not abused by the staff

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Speaker 4: to that extent, to the extent that some patients at

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Speaker 4: Winnebago have been, but she was not nurtured by them either,

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Speaker 4: not helped in any way.

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Speaker 2: You're listening to true crime conversations with me. I'm a

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Speaker 2: bass I'm speaking with author Kathleen Hale about the slender

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Speaker 2: Man stabbing case in the US. Up next, Kathleen explains

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Speaker 2: the early signs that Morgan Geyser was mentally ill and

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Speaker 2: what the lack of diagnosis led to. I know you

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Speaker 2: didn't speak to her a lot about the crime itself,

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Speaker 2: but you did really delve into her childhood and how

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Speaker 2: her mental health and illness kind of manifested and it

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Speaker 2: started really young, kind of when she was a toddler.

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Speaker 2: She has memories. Can you take us inside her brain

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Speaker 2: and the descriptions that she gave you?

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Speaker 3: Sure? Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So Morgan was telling me that some of her first

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Speaker 4: memories are being you know, bitten by ghosts, ghosts pulling

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Speaker 4: her hair, ghosts hugging her.

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Speaker 3: She would see colors sort.

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Speaker 4: Of floating like like chalk or dust, rainbow colors floating

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Speaker 4: in front of her face. She would see rainbow colors

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Speaker 4: sort of dripping down the walls, of her bedroom like paint.

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Speaker 4: And then very gradually her world became populated by these

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Speaker 4: imaginary friends. One of them was named Sev. She could

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Speaker 4: see him. He took care of her. He was like

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Speaker 4: a handsome boy in his twenties Ala, you know. He

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Speaker 4: stayed that age for her, and as she got older,

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Speaker 4: he was the same age. And then there was a

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Speaker 4: voice in her head named Maggie who sort of kept

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Speaker 4: her company and was kind for a long time until

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Speaker 4: she became quite cruel as she got older and the

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Speaker 4: crime got closer and closer, her mental unraveling. The way

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Speaker 4: that that looked to her was that more and more

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Speaker 4: imaginary friends started to populate her life, and she stopped

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Speaker 4: being able to control them when they talked to her,

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00:23:05,454 --> 00:23:08,534
Speaker 4: when they didn't talk to her, and they began to

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Speaker 4: scare her, and that that was sort of the shift

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Speaker 4: that occurred. Prior to the stabbing.

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Speaker 2: Her father was a diagnosed schizophrenic, but her parents, I mean,

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Speaker 2: prior to the crime, they didn't really kind of look

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Speaker 2: into her mental health, did they.

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Speaker 3: No, they didn't.

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Speaker 4: They had plans to tell her about her father, Matt's

382
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Speaker 4: mental illness, struggle with mental illness, but they didn't want.

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Speaker 3: To scare her.

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Speaker 4: They thought she was too young to know about it,

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Speaker 4: and they had plans to tell her when she turned sixteen. Uh,

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Speaker 4: sort of like magical age, you know in the US,

387
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Speaker 4: where you get to drive and you get to go

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Speaker 4: to prom. And I guess that they thought that at

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Speaker 4: that age she would be ready. In reality, Morgan knew

390
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Speaker 4: that something was wrong with her dad and she would

391
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Speaker 4: ask who She would ask him, point plank, what is

392
00:24:01,734 --> 00:24:04,574
Speaker 4: wrong with you? Because he was unmedicated and he was

393
00:24:04,614 --> 00:24:07,854
Speaker 4: her full time caregiver from the time she was a

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Speaker 4: baby until this crime of so she spent a lot

395
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Speaker 4: of time with him, and she saw him behave in

396
00:24:13,654 --> 00:24:16,334
Speaker 4: really strange ways, and he would say, I'll tell you

397
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Speaker 4: when you're sixteen. I'll tell you when you're sixteen. Morgan's mom, Angie,

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Speaker 4: was very devoted to her family and she was the

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Speaker 4: primary earner and her job was really intense. She assisted

400
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Speaker 4: on brain and spine surgeries and she was on call

401
00:24:34,654 --> 00:24:38,534
Speaker 4: and would be driving within one hundred miles of her

402
00:24:38,534 --> 00:24:41,174
Speaker 4: house at a moment's notice, and she sometimes worked seven

403
00:24:41,214 --> 00:24:44,014
Speaker 4: days a week just to kind of keep the family afloat.

404
00:24:44,134 --> 00:24:47,934
Speaker 4: On a single salary as a surgery technician, so she

405
00:24:48,094 --> 00:24:51,534
Speaker 4: was often leaving before dawn before Morgan woke up in

406
00:24:51,574 --> 00:24:54,734
Speaker 4: the morning, coming home after bedtime, not always, but a lot,

407
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Speaker 4: and so she was really relying on Matt to be

408
00:24:58,054 --> 00:25:01,614
Speaker 4: an accurate reporter of what was happening at home, and

409
00:25:01,934 --> 00:25:05,294
Speaker 4: unfortunately that just wasn't happening. I do I always feel

410
00:25:05,374 --> 00:25:08,494
Speaker 4: very protective of Angie in this story because I know

411
00:25:08,574 --> 00:25:10,654
Speaker 4: that it's really common for people to say, like, but

412
00:25:10,734 --> 00:25:14,254
Speaker 4: where were the parents, especially where was the mother? And

413
00:25:14,294 --> 00:25:17,294
Speaker 4: you know, as like a mom, I feel really protective

414
00:25:17,334 --> 00:25:19,174
Speaker 4: of her because she was doing everything she could to

415
00:25:19,254 --> 00:25:23,094
Speaker 4: keep her family safe and secure, and I think, like

416
00:25:23,134 --> 00:25:25,414
Speaker 4: any working mom, would have loved to have spent more

417
00:25:25,414 --> 00:25:27,934
Speaker 4: time with her children. But unfortunately that just wasn't the

418
00:25:27,974 --> 00:25:30,614
Speaker 4: situation at the time, and so a lot of warning

419
00:25:30,694 --> 00:25:33,014
Speaker 4: signs were missed, and a lot of it had to

420
00:25:33,054 --> 00:25:36,814
Speaker 4: do with the lack of communication that was happening between

421
00:25:36,814 --> 00:25:39,374
Speaker 4: the adults in Morgan's life.

422
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Speaker 3: Especially her teachers.

423
00:25:41,934 --> 00:25:44,774
Speaker 4: It was actually at school that you see the most

424
00:25:44,814 --> 00:25:50,734
Speaker 4: documented evidence that something was going very very badly for Morgan,

425
00:25:50,774 --> 00:25:53,774
Speaker 4: that she was really suffering and that she was struggling

426
00:25:53,774 --> 00:25:59,734
Speaker 4: and that she was confused, but the school didn't I mean,

427
00:25:59,814 --> 00:26:02,294
Speaker 4: they just didn't. They didn't rope her parents into a

428
00:26:02,294 --> 00:26:03,894
Speaker 4: conversation about it, they didn't address it.

429
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Speaker 3: They ignored it. They told police Slater that they thought

430
00:26:08,414 --> 00:26:10,054
Speaker 3: if they just they thought.

431
00:26:09,894 --> 00:26:14,134
Speaker 4: That Morgan was just trying to get attention, which culturally

432
00:26:14,374 --> 00:26:15,894
Speaker 4: in that area is considered a.

433
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Speaker 3: Very bad character flaw.

434
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Speaker 4: Right, What could be worse in a Scandinavian culture than

435
00:26:22,614 --> 00:26:25,694
Speaker 4: wanting to be an individual, not wanting to conform, not

436
00:26:25,814 --> 00:26:26,294
Speaker 4: wanting to.

437
00:26:26,254 --> 00:26:27,254
Speaker 3: Be part of the collective.

438
00:26:27,614 --> 00:26:29,894
Speaker 4: And so they tried to correct it, and they said

439
00:26:29,934 --> 00:26:33,294
Speaker 4: this themselves by withholding the attention that.

440
00:26:33,254 --> 00:26:35,774
Speaker 3: They thought that she craved. So they just ignored her.

441
00:26:36,414 --> 00:26:42,494
Speaker 4: And that to me was much more upsetting than anything,

442
00:26:43,294 --> 00:26:46,974
Speaker 4: you know, on Angie's part, because Angie wasn't seeing Morgan

443
00:26:47,614 --> 00:26:50,774
Speaker 4: painting with her own blood, which is what Morgan's math

444
00:26:50,814 --> 00:26:54,094
Speaker 4: teacher saw her doing, or like barking on the playground,

445
00:26:54,414 --> 00:26:56,694
Speaker 4: or you know, any of the other things writing.

446
00:26:56,534 --> 00:26:58,694
Speaker 3: Die over and over again in her notebook.

447
00:26:59,374 --> 00:27:04,734
Speaker 4: And so her mother had a really incomplete picture of

448
00:27:04,734 --> 00:27:07,534
Speaker 4: what was happening with Morgan. And by the time I

449
00:27:07,614 --> 00:27:12,694
Speaker 4: met them, and she felt so bad, I mean, I

450
00:27:12,734 --> 00:27:17,174
Speaker 4: can't Morgan felt terrible for what she had done. And

451
00:27:17,214 --> 00:27:22,214
Speaker 4: Angie felt an immense amount of anguish and guilt too.

452
00:27:22,374 --> 00:27:25,654
Speaker 4: She had missed this, She had missed this, and as

453
00:27:25,694 --> 00:27:28,494
Speaker 4: a result, she had lost lost her daughter.

454
00:27:29,454 --> 00:27:33,094
Speaker 2: Those kind of antics that you described Morgan doing, writing

455
00:27:33,094 --> 00:27:35,734
Speaker 2: in her blood, things like that. You know, she didn't

456
00:27:35,774 --> 00:27:38,734
Speaker 2: have a lot of friends. She was considered weird by

457
00:27:38,814 --> 00:27:41,174
Speaker 2: kids at school because of stuff like that. But she

458
00:27:41,254 --> 00:27:45,294
Speaker 2: did have a really close friendship with a girl called Peyton,

459
00:27:45,534 --> 00:27:47,734
Speaker 2: who you referred to as Bella because that was her

460
00:27:47,774 --> 00:27:51,574
Speaker 2: nickname at the time. Can you tell us about their friendship,

461
00:27:51,614 --> 00:27:55,174
Speaker 2: because they really were from your descriptions kind of chalk

462
00:27:55,214 --> 00:27:57,094
Speaker 2: and cheese. They were completely different.

463
00:27:58,574 --> 00:28:01,494
Speaker 4: Yeah, they were very, very different. Morgan was very dark,

464
00:28:01,814 --> 00:28:07,054
Speaker 4: Bella was very light. Bella was bubbly and sweet and

465
00:28:07,974 --> 00:28:12,454
Speaker 4: normal and not very imaginative and very literal, and Morgan

466
00:28:12,574 --> 00:28:17,414
Speaker 4: was extremely imaginative. And you know, she wore dark clothes

467
00:28:17,574 --> 00:28:21,374
Speaker 4: and patterned with like human skulls, and she wore a

468
00:28:21,414 --> 00:28:24,734
Speaker 4: black heart pendant around her neck, and Bella wore like

469
00:28:24,854 --> 00:28:27,494
Speaker 4: rainbows and butterfly wings, and it just sort of captures

470
00:28:27,534 --> 00:28:30,174
Speaker 4: the dynamic of their friendship and basically the way that

471
00:28:30,214 --> 00:28:34,974
Speaker 4: they came together was in fourth grade. Bella was for

472
00:28:35,014 --> 00:28:38,014
Speaker 4: some reason even less popular than Morgan was who knows.

473
00:28:38,054 --> 00:28:41,654
Speaker 4: I mean, kids have all sorts of ways of deciding

474
00:28:41,694 --> 00:28:45,174
Speaker 4: what the social hierarchies are. And no one would sit

475
00:28:45,214 --> 00:28:50,574
Speaker 4: with her at lunch. And Morgan one day across the

476
00:28:50,614 --> 00:28:54,534
Speaker 4: cafeteria to sit with Bella because she liked the way

477
00:28:54,974 --> 00:28:58,174
Speaker 4: that Bella drew kitty cats, and that was the thing

478
00:28:58,334 --> 00:29:01,254
Speaker 4: that sort of brought them together. And they both loved

479
00:29:01,534 --> 00:29:06,614
Speaker 4: dolls and cats and the color purple. And you know, Bella,

480
00:29:06,694 --> 00:29:10,534
Speaker 4: for Morgan's sake, pretended to like Star Trek. Also pretended

481
00:29:10,534 --> 00:29:14,334
Speaker 4: to see and hear Morgan's imaginary friends, and that sort

482
00:29:14,334 --> 00:29:17,894
Speaker 4: of binded them together. And you know, fast forward two

483
00:29:17,974 --> 00:29:23,454
Speaker 4: years to sixth grade, things are really shifting fast. Bella

484
00:29:23,694 --> 00:29:26,574
Speaker 4: is now becoming more liked by her peers because she's

485
00:29:26,614 --> 00:29:31,054
Speaker 4: so kind and so sweet, and Morgan is becoming more

486
00:29:31,094 --> 00:29:32,094
Speaker 4: and more unpopular.

487
00:29:32,694 --> 00:29:34,694
Speaker 3: People are really bullying her.

488
00:29:35,094 --> 00:29:38,374
Speaker 4: They'll, you know, pretend to they'll bump into our purpose

489
00:29:38,534 --> 00:29:40,734
Speaker 4: just to pretend to need to wash their hands and

490
00:29:40,774 --> 00:29:45,614
Speaker 4: scream that they've touched her. And Bella is approached by

491
00:29:45,854 --> 00:29:48,254
Speaker 4: the popular crowd and they say, you know, you can

492
00:29:48,374 --> 00:29:51,774
Speaker 4: join us if you stop being friends with Morgan, and

493
00:29:52,334 --> 00:29:56,934
Speaker 4: Bella refused because Morgan had come to her aid during

494
00:29:56,934 --> 00:30:00,334
Speaker 4: a time when she had nobody, and that had inspired

495
00:30:00,374 --> 00:30:03,774
Speaker 4: such a deep loyalty in her that she was willing

496
00:30:03,814 --> 00:30:06,054
Speaker 4: to stick it out with Morgan. And obviously that's the

497
00:30:06,094 --> 00:30:08,694
Speaker 4: decision that she really came to regret.

498
00:30:09,574 --> 00:30:12,494
Speaker 2: Even Bella's parents were quite wary of Morgan.

499
00:30:13,054 --> 00:30:18,134
Speaker 4: Yes, I mean Morgan set their basement on fire, that'll.

500
00:30:19,654 --> 00:30:22,614
Speaker 3: Do it. But you know they didn't tell her parents. Hmm.

501
00:30:23,894 --> 00:30:26,974
Speaker 4: I mean, I can't imagine if somebody set fire to

502
00:30:27,054 --> 00:30:30,334
Speaker 4: my house, if one of like, it's reflective of, like

503
00:30:30,374 --> 00:30:35,374
Speaker 4: I said, a very very specific Wisconsin Midwestern Gothic culture

504
00:30:35,414 --> 00:30:37,934
Speaker 4: where there's a lot of silence around anything that would

505
00:30:37,974 --> 00:30:42,414
Speaker 4: require a social interaction a confrontation that might not be

506
00:30:42,654 --> 00:30:45,254
Speaker 4: just like friendly talking about the weather keeping things at

507
00:30:45,254 --> 00:30:48,494
Speaker 4: the surface, like, that's a difficult conversation to have, and

508
00:30:48,574 --> 00:30:52,414
Speaker 4: so she just didn't have it. And so, but they

509
00:30:52,494 --> 00:30:58,934
Speaker 4: really didn't. Bella's mom, Stacy, really didn't like Morgan, and

510
00:30:58,974 --> 00:31:02,574
Speaker 4: Morgan later told me that she felt like, and she

511
00:31:02,654 --> 00:31:06,334
Speaker 4: said this almost in an admiring way, that Stacy was

512
00:31:06,374 --> 00:31:09,414
Speaker 4: the only person in her life who knew that there

513
00:31:09,614 --> 00:31:13,014
Speaker 4: is something wrong with her. She noticed, yeah, she noticed,

514
00:31:13,054 --> 00:31:16,334
Speaker 4: she noticed something that nobody else noticed about Morgan, and

515
00:31:16,374 --> 00:31:18,614
Speaker 4: she did what she could to try to extricate the

516
00:31:18,654 --> 00:31:20,294
Speaker 4: two girls. But she did it in sort of a

517
00:31:20,374 --> 00:31:23,814
Speaker 4: roundabout way where she would try to like encourage Bella to,

518
00:31:24,454 --> 00:31:27,894
Speaker 4: you know, hang out with more popular kids, or you know,

519
00:31:28,254 --> 00:31:30,894
Speaker 4: make up an excuse for why Bella couldn't go to

520
00:31:30,974 --> 00:31:34,934
Speaker 4: Morgan's things that were sort of easily ignored or circumvented.

521
00:31:35,574 --> 00:31:37,734
Speaker 4: I don't think that there was ever a conversation like,

522
00:31:37,854 --> 00:31:42,014
Speaker 4: I just don't this doesn't feel good, And in fact,

523
00:31:42,374 --> 00:31:45,534
Speaker 4: she and Bella's dad, Joe, were sort of at odds

524
00:31:45,574 --> 00:31:49,694
Speaker 4: about it. Joe was pretty warm toward Morgan. I saw

525
00:31:49,734 --> 00:31:52,974
Speaker 4: it in the courtroom too, the way that Bella's parents

526
00:31:53,014 --> 00:31:57,614
Speaker 4: were divided by their approach to the aftermass of the crime.

527
00:31:58,334 --> 00:32:02,574
Speaker 4: Bella's mom was at every hearing really wanted the most

528
00:32:02,694 --> 00:32:08,694
Speaker 4: extreme punishment for Morgan, which anyone can understand why Bella's

529
00:32:08,734 --> 00:32:12,094
Speaker 4: mom would want. And Joe was a bit more expansive.

530
00:32:12,734 --> 00:32:16,814
Speaker 4: He held the door for Morgan's mom in court, little

531
00:32:16,854 --> 00:32:18,134
Speaker 4: gestures that I think.

532
00:32:19,614 --> 00:32:22,014
Speaker 3: They frayed the relationship.

533
00:32:21,414 --> 00:32:25,014
Speaker 4: Over time, and they ended up divorcing after this this

534
00:32:25,094 --> 00:32:27,894
Speaker 4: crime unfolded. I'm not saying it's just because of that, obviously,

535
00:32:28,254 --> 00:32:30,774
Speaker 4: It's just that, you know, you could see the differences

536
00:32:30,774 --> 00:32:33,974
Speaker 4: in their reactions to this tragedy, and that's something that

537
00:32:34,334 --> 00:32:36,854
Speaker 4: pulls couples apart when they don't react to something like

538
00:32:36,894 --> 00:32:39,774
Speaker 4: that in lockstep with each other.

539
00:32:40,894 --> 00:32:44,974
Speaker 2: When did Anissa come into their lives and how did

540
00:32:45,014 --> 00:32:48,294
Speaker 2: she kind of change the dynamic between the girls.

541
00:32:48,934 --> 00:32:55,494
Speaker 4: Anissa she joined Morgan and Bella's middle school at the

542
00:32:55,534 --> 00:32:59,654
Speaker 4: beginning of sixth grade. Anisa switched school districts, so they

543
00:32:59,694 --> 00:33:01,974
Speaker 4: were all going to a new middle school. Middle school

544
00:33:02,014 --> 00:33:04,494
Speaker 4: starts in sixth grade in the US, but Bella and

545
00:33:04,534 --> 00:33:07,294
Speaker 4: Morgan had gone to elementary school together and Anissa was

546
00:33:07,334 --> 00:33:11,494
Speaker 4: the new kid, and so also happened to be Morgan's

547
00:33:11,814 --> 00:33:16,214
Speaker 4: neighbor in the same apartment complex, and she began as

548
00:33:16,374 --> 00:33:19,214
Speaker 4: Morgan's bully. She would bullieve Morgan just like the other

549
00:33:19,294 --> 00:33:23,974
Speaker 4: kids believe Morgan. But sort of gradually she realized that

550
00:33:24,014 --> 00:33:26,294
Speaker 4: Morgan was interested in the same things that she was

551
00:33:26,334 --> 00:33:28,974
Speaker 4: interested in, which made them both very different. I mean,

552
00:33:29,014 --> 00:33:32,254
Speaker 4: they both liked horror stories, they liked dark things. It's

553
00:33:32,294 --> 00:33:36,534
Speaker 4: not something that girls in Waukeshaw, Wisconsin are really like

554
00:33:37,134 --> 00:33:41,054
Speaker 4: celebrated for being into I mean, this was when people

555
00:33:41,054 --> 00:33:43,854
Speaker 4: were doing like the ice bucket challenge, you know, like

556
00:33:44,654 --> 00:33:46,734
Speaker 4: Bella wanted.

557
00:33:46,454 --> 00:33:47,814
Speaker 3: To do the ice bocket challenge.

558
00:33:47,854 --> 00:33:50,534
Speaker 4: She wanted to do like social media pranks to raise

559
00:33:50,574 --> 00:33:55,734
Speaker 4: awareness for like causes, and Morgan wanted to like like

560
00:33:56,054 --> 00:33:59,254
Speaker 4: read conspiracy theories online. It was a very different thing,

561
00:33:59,334 --> 00:34:03,174
Speaker 4: and so Anissa noticed that about her and something kind

562
00:34:03,174 --> 00:34:06,574
Speaker 4: of clicked between them. At the time, Anissa's parents were

563
00:34:06,574 --> 00:34:09,774
Speaker 4: getting divorced. Stuff at home was really bad, had a

564
00:34:09,774 --> 00:34:13,534
Speaker 4: lot of reasons to want to leave home, and she

565
00:34:13,614 --> 00:34:17,054
Speaker 4: was lonely. She was super lonely. She doesn't She was

566
00:34:17,094 --> 00:34:19,934
Speaker 4: a bully, which meant that in some ways she had

567
00:34:20,174 --> 00:34:23,694
Speaker 4: power over other children, but she didn't have any friends.

568
00:34:24,534 --> 00:34:28,494
Speaker 4: She operated kind of as a rule enforcer, which is

569
00:34:28,534 --> 00:34:31,254
Speaker 4: where her bullying came from. Like she would when kids

570
00:34:31,294 --> 00:34:33,614
Speaker 4: didn't follow the rules in class, she would punch them

571
00:34:33,694 --> 00:34:36,494
Speaker 4: or call them names while the teacher wasn't looking. She

572
00:34:36,614 --> 00:34:39,774
Speaker 4: was very good at executing that kind of like justice

573
00:34:40,214 --> 00:34:42,694
Speaker 4: in her mind when adults weren't looking.

574
00:34:43,014 --> 00:34:46,174
Speaker 3: Later, all of her teachers would be like, she was amazing,

575
00:34:46,254 --> 00:34:47,214
Speaker 3: and all of the kids would be.

576
00:34:47,254 --> 00:34:50,254
Speaker 4: Like she was a nightmare and she had this fantasy

577
00:34:50,254 --> 00:34:52,894
Speaker 4: of wanting to save the world, but basically she just

578
00:34:52,934 --> 00:34:56,894
Speaker 4: wanted friends and she was obsessed with Morgan, but Bella

579
00:34:57,254 --> 00:34:59,774
Speaker 4: stood between them. Morgan already had a best friend and

580
00:34:59,814 --> 00:35:03,254
Speaker 4: that was always sort of a thorn in a Nissa's side.

581
00:35:03,494 --> 00:35:07,494
Speaker 2: Slender Man kind of became this common ground between the

582
00:35:07,574 --> 00:35:11,974
Speaker 2: Nissa and Morgan, like an obsession started to read about

583
00:35:11,974 --> 00:35:17,654
Speaker 2: Slenderman and obsess about human his character. But how did

584
00:35:17,814 --> 00:35:22,414
Speaker 2: an obsession with this creepy fictional character kind of morph

585
00:35:22,614 --> 00:35:25,894
Speaker 2: into there's no other way to describe it but a

586
00:35:25,974 --> 00:35:28,454
Speaker 2: murder plot and a murder plot to kill Bella.

587
00:35:29,534 --> 00:35:34,174
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was gradual and it was also it would

588
00:35:34,214 --> 00:35:37,734
Speaker 4: also never have happened. If Morgan and Anissa had not

589
00:35:37,814 --> 00:35:41,534
Speaker 4: found each other, none of this would have happened. Basically,

590
00:35:41,774 --> 00:35:44,694
Speaker 4: Morgan had no one to talk to about the things

591
00:35:44,734 --> 00:35:47,734
Speaker 4: that she was seeing and hearing, the hallucinations that she

592
00:35:47,894 --> 00:35:50,174
Speaker 4: was having. She tried to talk to Bella about it.

593
00:35:50,254 --> 00:35:53,054
Speaker 4: Bella was like, I lied about seeing and hearing your

594
00:35:53,094 --> 00:35:55,334
Speaker 4: imaginary friends. I don't want to play this game anymore.

595
00:35:55,574 --> 00:35:58,174
Speaker 4: I'm scared you're scaring me. It's not nice, it's mean,

596
00:35:58,654 --> 00:36:02,014
Speaker 4: and so Morgan felt like if she were to confide

597
00:36:02,054 --> 00:36:04,494
Speaker 4: in Bella that she was going to lose Bella, and

598
00:36:04,534 --> 00:36:08,054
Speaker 4: she didn't want to lose Bella. And eventually it came

599
00:36:08,174 --> 00:36:10,734
Speaker 4: up with Anissa that Morgan saw and heard these things,

600
00:36:10,774 --> 00:36:14,614
Speaker 4: and Anissa was intrigued because she believed in magic and

601
00:36:14,734 --> 00:36:17,334
Speaker 4: dark forces, and you know, she had this creeping sense

602
00:36:17,334 --> 00:36:19,414
Speaker 4: of dread and that's why she loved horror stories because

603
00:36:19,414 --> 00:36:22,174
Speaker 4: they validated this feeling that she had all the time.

604
00:36:22,814 --> 00:36:26,134
Speaker 4: And so Morgan at that point was really afraid that

605
00:36:26,174 --> 00:36:28,014
Speaker 4: she might be going crazy. You can see in her

606
00:36:28,054 --> 00:36:30,414
Speaker 4: Google searches she was searching for like what kind of

607
00:36:30,414 --> 00:36:31,894
Speaker 4: insane am I?

608
00:36:31,894 --> 00:36:33,854
Speaker 3: If Anissa had said.

609
00:36:33,694 --> 00:36:38,054
Speaker 4: Like I think, I think maybe you are, like, you know, crazy,

610
00:36:38,294 --> 00:36:40,294
Speaker 4: things might have gone differently, But instead she goes, no,

611
00:36:40,374 --> 00:36:43,534
Speaker 4: I think you're a medium. I think that you straddle

612
00:36:43,614 --> 00:36:47,214
Speaker 4: to worlds and you're in touch with this side of

613
00:36:47,254 --> 00:36:49,534
Speaker 4: life that like no one else understands. So she made

614
00:36:49,974 --> 00:36:54,974
Speaker 4: Morgan feel you know, special in this in this way

615
00:36:54,974 --> 00:36:57,974
Speaker 4: that was really reassuring to Morgan, but also scary, right,

616
00:36:57,974 --> 00:36:59,854
Speaker 4: because then it means that all of these things that

617
00:36:59,894 --> 00:37:02,454
Speaker 4: she's seeing and hearing are real, and so she keeps

618
00:37:02,454 --> 00:37:04,894
Speaker 4: opening up to Anissa, and she shares that at one

619
00:37:04,934 --> 00:37:07,574
Speaker 4: point in her childhood, the scariest thing she ever saw

620
00:37:08,134 --> 00:37:10,494
Speaker 4: was she was looking in the mirror and she saw

621
00:37:10,574 --> 00:37:16,254
Speaker 4: this shadowy figure standing behind her, really tall and thin,

622
00:37:16,974 --> 00:37:20,054
Speaker 4: and Anissa's like, I've seen him too.

623
00:37:20,054 --> 00:37:22,254
Speaker 3: His name is Slenderman. And that's when she.

624
00:37:22,214 --> 00:37:26,654
Speaker 4: Introduced Morgan to creepypasta dot com. And basically, between all

625
00:37:26,694 --> 00:37:29,214
Speaker 4: of these different variables, what they came up with was

626
00:37:29,254 --> 00:37:32,294
Speaker 4: that Slenderman had appeared to Morgan when she was a

627
00:37:32,294 --> 00:37:35,814
Speaker 4: young child as a warning, and now he was sending

628
00:37:36,814 --> 00:37:42,774
Speaker 4: like demons at her to sort of like to warn

629
00:37:42,854 --> 00:37:46,814
Speaker 4: her that he would come back and kill her and

630
00:37:46,854 --> 00:37:49,934
Speaker 4: her family, in Anissa and Anissa's family, and maybe the

631
00:37:49,934 --> 00:37:53,574
Speaker 4: whole human race like in the creepypasta stories that they read,

632
00:37:54,334 --> 00:37:58,094
Speaker 4: if they didn't sacrifice another human being in his name,

633
00:37:58,494 --> 00:38:01,774
Speaker 4: like in the scary stories that they read. So they

634
00:38:01,854 --> 00:38:04,374
Speaker 4: just put all these pieces together and it was basically,

635
00:38:04,414 --> 00:38:07,774
Speaker 4: when you sort of zoom out, it was two twelve

636
00:38:07,814 --> 00:38:10,294
Speaker 4: year old girls, one of whom Anissa, had a very

637
00:38:10,334 --> 00:38:13,814
Speaker 4: severe learning disability that was undiagnosed at the time, where

638
00:38:13,814 --> 00:38:17,014
Speaker 4: she could not tell the difference between reality and fantasy.

639
00:38:17,454 --> 00:38:19,894
Speaker 4: And then you have another girl who's severely mentally ill,

640
00:38:20,254 --> 00:38:23,414
Speaker 4: and together at the age of twelve, they're trying to

641
00:38:23,534 --> 00:38:27,174
Speaker 4: diagnose her. They're trying to figure out without any help,

642
00:38:27,254 --> 00:38:29,454
Speaker 4: what is wrong. And so this is what they came

643
00:38:29,534 --> 00:38:33,734
Speaker 4: up with. Now, in terms of choosing Bella as the victim,

644
00:38:33,854 --> 00:38:36,614
Speaker 4: that is the one piece of this puzzle that will

645
00:38:36,654 --> 00:38:38,254
Speaker 4: probably always be a mystery.

646
00:38:38,694 --> 00:38:39,814
Speaker 3: It's the only.

647
00:38:39,654 --> 00:38:46,094
Speaker 4: Place where Morgan and Anissa's testimonies diverge. Each one blamed

648
00:38:46,134 --> 00:38:50,574
Speaker 4: the other for picking Bella. So like what Morgan said

649
00:38:51,294 --> 00:38:54,454
Speaker 4: to me is that Anissa said that it had to

650
00:38:54,494 --> 00:38:58,734
Speaker 4: be someone that Morgan loved, and isn't that convenient? Also

651
00:38:58,854 --> 00:39:03,254
Speaker 4: that Anissa happens to hate Bella and Morgan really only

652
00:39:03,294 --> 00:39:05,894
Speaker 4: loved one person other than her family, and that's Bellas.

653
00:39:05,934 --> 00:39:08,494
Speaker 4: It was pretty obvious who Anissa was talking about, and

654
00:39:08,614 --> 00:39:11,534
Speaker 4: Anissa would help reliefs that it was Morgan's idea. That

655
00:39:11,694 --> 00:39:14,974
Speaker 4: Morgan was like, we got to kill Bella first lender man,

656
00:39:15,014 --> 00:39:18,934
Speaker 4: and so it's unclear whose idea it was exactly, But

657
00:39:19,334 --> 00:39:22,894
Speaker 4: I think the one thing that is consistent even in

658
00:39:22,934 --> 00:39:26,534
Speaker 4: that piece of the story is that Morgan and Anissa

659
00:39:26,934 --> 00:39:31,174
Speaker 4: chose Bella because Morgan loved Bella. So it wasn't because

660
00:39:31,214 --> 00:39:35,254
Speaker 4: Morgan hated Bella. It was because it was the opposite.

661
00:39:35,334 --> 00:39:37,414
Speaker 4: It was that Bella was the most important person in

662
00:39:37,414 --> 00:39:40,534
Speaker 4: the world to her and that was the only thing

663
00:39:41,134 --> 00:39:44,894
Speaker 4: she thought that would make the sacrifice count.

664
00:39:46,614 --> 00:39:49,414
Speaker 2: After the break, Kathleen tells us what Morgan and Anissa

665
00:39:49,454 --> 00:39:52,214
Speaker 2: were planning to do to Bella and what exactly went

666
00:39:52,294 --> 00:39:58,654
Speaker 2: down on the night of the Slender Man's sacrifice. When

667
00:39:58,654 --> 00:40:02,334
Speaker 2: you read the details of what these two twelve year

668
00:40:02,334 --> 00:40:06,694
Speaker 2: olds did to Bella, you know, flat on a news report,

669
00:40:06,774 --> 00:40:08,694
Speaker 2: it's kind of like they lured her into the forest

670
00:40:08,694 --> 00:40:11,614
Speaker 2: playing hide and seek, they stabbed her. When you read

671
00:40:11,614 --> 00:40:17,174
Speaker 2: it in your book, it's so obvious when you break

672
00:40:17,214 --> 00:40:20,134
Speaker 2: it all down that these are doing help Like they're

673
00:40:20,174 --> 00:40:25,494
Speaker 2: twelve year old girls, and the way they're thinking into

674
00:40:25,534 --> 00:40:29,374
Speaker 2: how this plot kind of unravels really kind of shows that.

675
00:40:29,454 --> 00:40:32,174
Speaker 2: And I want to kind of help the audience understand

676
00:40:32,294 --> 00:40:37,454
Speaker 2: that by kind of explaining that this started with skating

677
00:40:37,574 --> 00:40:41,894
Speaker 2: at a sleepover, playing sims, eating cheese puffs, sping in

678
00:40:41,934 --> 00:40:45,974
Speaker 2: a pillow for like regular twelve year old girl stuff,

679
00:40:47,014 --> 00:40:49,294
Speaker 2: and then this plan that they kind of had in

680
00:40:49,334 --> 00:40:52,174
Speaker 2: the back of the back of the sleepover, which was like,

681
00:40:52,254 --> 00:40:54,054
Speaker 2: we've got a killer, but how do we do it?

682
00:40:54,134 --> 00:40:57,294
Speaker 2: And they kind of keep chickening out, don't they. Over

683
00:40:57,334 --> 00:40:58,374
Speaker 2: the course of the night.

684
00:40:58,454 --> 00:41:01,134
Speaker 4: They've check it out several times, and Morgan comes up

685
00:41:01,134 --> 00:41:04,374
Speaker 4: with these kind of magical thinking type ways of avoiding

686
00:41:04,614 --> 00:41:07,734
Speaker 4: the stabbing, like without actually stopping it, Like she thinks

687
00:41:07,854 --> 00:41:09,254
Speaker 4: she can stop it if she does this, she can

688
00:41:09,294 --> 00:41:13,254
Speaker 4: startish as that. When you said that the real timeline

689
00:41:13,254 --> 00:41:15,454
Speaker 4: of events leading up to the stabbing, the most glaring

690
00:41:15,494 --> 00:41:17,494
Speaker 4: thing about it is that these were twelve year old girls.

691
00:41:17,534 --> 00:41:20,374
Speaker 4: Like I laughed a little bit, not because it's not

692
00:41:20,454 --> 00:41:23,014
Speaker 4: because it's funny, but because it's so true.

693
00:41:23,174 --> 00:41:25,694
Speaker 3: Like it's like when you read the police reports and

694
00:41:25,734 --> 00:41:29,334
Speaker 3: the interviews and the way that they were thinking the

695
00:41:29,374 --> 00:41:30,934
Speaker 3: things that they were doing.

696
00:41:31,654 --> 00:41:37,934
Speaker 4: It they were so unbelievably shockingly young, and the way

697
00:41:37,974 --> 00:41:41,094
Speaker 4: that their minds worked were it was, you know, their

698
00:41:41,134 --> 00:41:44,214
Speaker 4: minds worked with the absurdity of a child's minds, like

699
00:41:44,734 --> 00:41:48,814
Speaker 4: and and so there are moments in that narrative leading

700
00:41:48,894 --> 00:41:52,094
Speaker 4: up to the stabbing where you kind of it's it's

701
00:41:52,134 --> 00:41:56,894
Speaker 4: it's absurd to the point of feeling like it. It's yes,

702
00:41:56,974 --> 00:42:00,094
Speaker 4: So anyway, So what happened was it was a Friday

703
00:42:00,094 --> 00:42:03,494
Speaker 4: Saturday sleepover. On Friday night, they went to Skateland, which

704
00:42:03,494 --> 00:42:07,014
Speaker 4: is a roller rink, and they you know, they skated,

705
00:42:07,454 --> 00:42:11,454
Speaker 4: They had they had a fun time. They held hands,

706
00:42:12,014 --> 00:42:15,334
Speaker 4: they ate creamsicles. They went home. They gave Morgan her

707
00:42:15,334 --> 00:42:18,894
Speaker 4: birthday presents, which included the stuffed banana and the Star

708
00:42:18,974 --> 00:42:23,694
Speaker 4: Trek mug, among other things. They played the sims. Anissa

709
00:42:23,774 --> 00:42:27,094
Speaker 4: and Bella shared a bed. They slept head to foot.

710
00:42:27,614 --> 00:42:31,054
Speaker 4: Bella slept with a dolly. She brought nine Cap magazines

711
00:42:31,094 --> 00:42:32,054
Speaker 4: with her to the sleepover.

712
00:42:32,934 --> 00:42:35,334
Speaker 2: It's so innocent. It sounds also innocent.

713
00:42:35,414 --> 00:42:39,054
Speaker 4: Yeah, it sounds so innocent. And the plan kept getting subverted.

714
00:42:39,094 --> 00:42:42,294
Speaker 4: The plan had been to kill Bella that night right away.

715
00:42:42,414 --> 00:42:45,134
Speaker 4: The initial plan that they came up with was that

716
00:42:45,894 --> 00:42:50,214
Speaker 4: after Bella fell asleep, Anissa was going to stab her

717
00:42:50,494 --> 00:42:52,574
Speaker 4: and then to death, and that they were going to

718
00:42:52,654 --> 00:42:55,014
Speaker 4: leave her body in the sleeping bag and slip out

719
00:42:55,014 --> 00:42:57,374
Speaker 4: in the middle of the night so that if anyone

720
00:42:57,374 --> 00:42:59,814
Speaker 4: came in it would look like she was sleeping. But

721
00:43:00,094 --> 00:43:03,974
Speaker 4: by the time Bella fell asleep, Anissa was so tired

722
00:43:04,134 --> 00:43:08,854
Speaker 4: from roller skating so much that she was too tired

723
00:43:08,894 --> 00:43:12,574
Speaker 4: to kill anybody. So Morgan said, well, let's just rest.

724
00:43:12,614 --> 00:43:15,134
Speaker 4: I'll set an alarm on my phone for two thirty am.

725
00:43:15,814 --> 00:43:18,334
Speaker 4: But she didn't set the alarm because she didn't want

726
00:43:18,334 --> 00:43:21,454
Speaker 4: the stabbing to happen, but because she was a child,

727
00:43:21,774 --> 00:43:24,974
Speaker 4: she thought that that was like a way to avoid

728
00:43:25,054 --> 00:43:27,774
Speaker 4: the tragedy. She didn't anyway, she didn't want to make

729
00:43:27,774 --> 00:43:30,014
Speaker 4: Anissa mad. Is sort of the thing that was like

730
00:43:30,094 --> 00:43:32,654
Speaker 4: leading her. So then Anissa woke up in the morning

731
00:43:32,694 --> 00:43:36,134
Speaker 4: and she was furious at Morgan for not setting the alarm.

732
00:43:37,214 --> 00:43:39,894
Speaker 4: And then Morgan got permission from her parents to go

733
00:43:39,974 --> 00:43:43,774
Speaker 4: play outside at the nearby park. They'd only let her

734
00:43:43,854 --> 00:43:46,894
Speaker 4: do it like once before, but you know, they they

735
00:43:47,014 --> 00:43:50,654
Speaker 4: reasoned that girls are safer in a group usually, so

736
00:43:50,694 --> 00:43:54,374
Speaker 4: they let them go. And then the plan had become

737
00:43:54,534 --> 00:44:01,454
Speaker 4: to kill Bella in the playground restroom because Anissa thought

738
00:44:01,454 --> 00:44:03,454
Speaker 4: it would work because it had a drain for the

739
00:44:03,454 --> 00:44:06,534
Speaker 4: blood to go down. So they brought her in there,

740
00:44:06,694 --> 00:44:09,134
Speaker 4: telling her that they wanted to show her some vandalism

741
00:44:09,174 --> 00:44:12,654
Speaker 4: and the toilets. She quickly realized that this was not

742
00:44:12,734 --> 00:44:15,534
Speaker 4: true and then but.

743
00:44:15,734 --> 00:44:19,054
Speaker 3: She didn't leave because, I mean, who would think that?

744
00:44:19,294 --> 00:44:20,574
Speaker 3: Who who would think?

745
00:44:20,854 --> 00:44:23,054
Speaker 4: She thought that they were being mean, that they were

746
00:44:23,134 --> 00:44:25,374
Speaker 4: like that they were gossiping about her, that they were

747
00:44:25,414 --> 00:44:28,694
Speaker 4: whispering about her. She wasn't having fun. She wanted to

748
00:44:28,694 --> 00:44:31,774
Speaker 4: go home. She felt like they were excluding her, but

749
00:44:31,854 --> 00:44:33,734
Speaker 4: she didn't call her mom because she wanted to be

750
00:44:33,774 --> 00:44:37,694
Speaker 4: a good friend to Morgan. Anissa tried to knock Bella

751
00:44:37,814 --> 00:44:41,694
Speaker 4: unconscious in the bathroom, which sounds quite violent. It sounds

752
00:44:41,734 --> 00:44:44,254
Speaker 4: like anybody would have left that situation if they had

753
00:44:44,254 --> 00:44:48,014
Speaker 4: been Bella. But Anissa was by her own admission, she

754
00:44:48,134 --> 00:44:49,654
Speaker 4: used these words, I'm not very athletic.

755
00:44:49,854 --> 00:44:50,774
Speaker 3: She's also twelve.

756
00:44:51,174 --> 00:44:53,214
Speaker 4: She also thought that to kill somebody just like kind

757
00:44:53,214 --> 00:44:55,134
Speaker 4: of booped them on the head like in a video game,

758
00:44:55,934 --> 00:44:59,854
Speaker 4: and so she just like sort of pushed Bella's head

759
00:44:59,934 --> 00:45:03,294
Speaker 4: like that, and Bella was like oow, like you're you know,

760
00:45:03,454 --> 00:45:07,014
Speaker 4: like but but she obviously was not knocked unconscious, and

761
00:45:07,014 --> 00:45:08,454
Speaker 4: so then Anissa didn't know what to do.

762
00:45:09,654 --> 00:45:11,494
Speaker 3: So they thought, let's go into the woods.

763
00:45:11,894 --> 00:45:15,814
Speaker 4: So they asked Bella if she wanted to go bird watching.

764
00:45:15,974 --> 00:45:16,534
Speaker 3: She said no.

765
00:45:16,694 --> 00:45:19,694
Speaker 4: She was sulking at this point, so they said hide

766
00:45:19,694 --> 00:45:21,774
Speaker 4: and seek. She agreed to play hide and seek. They

767
00:45:21,774 --> 00:45:25,334
Speaker 4: actually played one game the normal way they you know,

768
00:45:25,414 --> 00:45:29,014
Speaker 4: Morgan counted and they hid and she kind of found them,

769
00:45:29,014 --> 00:45:32,654
Speaker 4: and then they played again. And that time when Morgan

770
00:45:32,814 --> 00:45:38,654
Speaker 4: found Anissa and Bella in a clearing, she couldn't go

771
00:45:38,734 --> 00:45:41,094
Speaker 4: through with it at first, and Anissa got into a

772
00:45:41,094 --> 00:45:42,494
Speaker 4: fight about who was going.

773
00:45:42,374 --> 00:45:42,734
Speaker 3: To do it.

774
00:45:42,774 --> 00:45:46,094
Speaker 4: They're fighting off at the side of this clearing, passing

775
00:45:46,134 --> 00:45:49,214
Speaker 4: the knife that they've taken from Morgan's kitchen. They're passing

776
00:45:49,294 --> 00:45:54,454
Speaker 4: it back and forth, and Morgan's finally, you know, said

777
00:45:54,454 --> 00:45:56,894
Speaker 4: something that annoyed Anissa so much because she's not sticking

778
00:45:56,934 --> 00:45:59,774
Speaker 4: to the plan that Anissa turns to leave and just

779
00:45:59,814 --> 00:46:02,374
Speaker 4: walk away, and if she had, this would not have happened.

780
00:46:02,774 --> 00:46:05,294
Speaker 4: But instead she turned around and she said kitty now.

781
00:46:05,454 --> 00:46:10,134
Speaker 4: And Kitty was her like pet name for Morgan, and

782
00:46:10,134 --> 00:46:13,414
Speaker 4: it sort of ignited something in Morgan. She said to Morgan,

783
00:46:13,454 --> 00:46:19,174
Speaker 4: go berzerk, go crazy. Morgan tackled Fella. She said, don't worry,

784
00:46:19,334 --> 00:46:23,294
Speaker 4: I'm just a little kitty cat, and then she stabbed

785
00:46:23,414 --> 00:46:24,974
Speaker 4: Bella nineteen times.

786
00:46:26,934 --> 00:46:32,494
Speaker 2: It's a miracle she lived nineteen times. How did she live?

787
00:46:33,294 --> 00:46:36,134
Speaker 4: Well, there's a few things. One is that it was

788
00:46:36,174 --> 00:46:37,134
Speaker 4: a medical miracle.

789
00:46:37,734 --> 00:46:38,214
Speaker 3: One of the.

790
00:46:38,374 --> 00:46:43,174
Speaker 4: Stab wounds missed her heart by a millimeter or something

791
00:46:43,414 --> 00:46:46,214
Speaker 4: crazy like that. So that's part of it. There was

792
00:46:46,334 --> 00:46:50,294
Speaker 4: one stab wound that should have killed her. She was

793
00:46:50,294 --> 00:46:52,894
Speaker 4: stabbed in the torso in the arms.

794
00:46:53,814 --> 00:46:54,894
Speaker 3: It was awful.

795
00:46:55,294 --> 00:46:59,614
Speaker 4: The other thing is that Morgan was still in this

796
00:46:59,734 --> 00:47:04,534
Speaker 4: mindset of I don't want this to happen. I don't

797
00:47:04,574 --> 00:47:08,134
Speaker 4: want this to happen. And if you look at the side,

798
00:47:08,254 --> 00:47:12,094
Speaker 4: at the at the scope of the each individual wound,

799
00:47:12,454 --> 00:47:14,334
Speaker 4: and by that I mean in the police report, they

800
00:47:14,374 --> 00:47:18,614
Speaker 4: measure it centimeters millimeters the whole she was using a

801
00:47:18,694 --> 00:47:24,574
Speaker 4: six inch blade and barely breaking the surface in a

802
00:47:24,574 --> 00:47:27,814
Speaker 4: lot of these in a lot of these strikes, very

803
00:47:27,894 --> 00:47:31,614
Speaker 4: very very small wounds. And that's not to minimize the

804
00:47:31,734 --> 00:47:36,054
Speaker 4: violence of this. This crime is awful and Bella suffered enormously.

805
00:47:36,134 --> 00:47:40,374
Speaker 4: She had to have multiple life saving surgeries that left

806
00:47:40,374 --> 00:47:45,134
Speaker 4: her with so much scarring from her throat to her abdomen.

807
00:47:45,254 --> 00:47:48,054
Speaker 4: I mean, and it's a huge, huge trauma. But what

808
00:47:48,094 --> 00:47:52,454
Speaker 4: I'm saying is Morgan was not she was not pressing

809
00:47:52,534 --> 00:47:56,934
Speaker 4: very hard. She was she was flailing and going through

810
00:47:56,974 --> 00:47:59,334
Speaker 4: the motions of this stabbing and of course when you

811
00:47:59,334 --> 00:48:04,974
Speaker 4: stab somebody that many times you're going to create devastating consequences.

812
00:48:05,454 --> 00:48:08,374
Speaker 4: But if you imagine somebody who doesn't really want to

813
00:48:08,374 --> 00:48:10,534
Speaker 4: be doing it, who's kind of holding their arm back

814
00:48:10,574 --> 00:48:13,494
Speaker 4: a bit, who's flailing a bit more than actually striking,

815
00:48:13,934 --> 00:48:17,214
Speaker 4: those were Those were the kinds of wounds that a

816
00:48:17,254 --> 00:48:21,094
Speaker 4: lot of, not all nineteen wounds were kill wounds.

817
00:48:21,534 --> 00:48:26,134
Speaker 2: A few things happened after the stubbing. One Morgan at

818
00:48:26,134 --> 00:48:28,574
Speaker 2: one point tried to administer some first aid with a

819
00:48:28,654 --> 00:48:32,694
Speaker 2: leaf and yeah, but then they kind of said to Bella,

820
00:48:33,174 --> 00:48:36,574
Speaker 2: we'll go and get help. But they weren't going to

821
00:48:36,614 --> 00:48:38,734
Speaker 2: go get help. They were basically going to run away

822
00:48:39,134 --> 00:48:42,894
Speaker 2: to be with Slenderman, because that was the plan. How

823
00:48:44,254 --> 00:48:47,014
Speaker 2: How was Bella found? How was she saved?

824
00:48:47,894 --> 00:48:52,374
Speaker 4: It's really miraculous, and it's a testament to her bravery

825
00:48:52,614 --> 00:48:57,134
Speaker 4: and fortitude and intelligence because she, you know, she had

826
00:48:57,174 --> 00:49:04,694
Speaker 4: believed them all day about everything, and she, in her desperation,

827
00:49:04,854 --> 00:49:07,134
Speaker 4: might have believed them when they said they were going

828
00:49:07,174 --> 00:49:10,534
Speaker 4: to get help. I think another person might have, you know,

829
00:49:10,654 --> 00:49:13,614
Speaker 4: in that sort of vulnerable moment, and she didn't, and

830
00:49:13,654 --> 00:49:16,374
Speaker 4: so she started to drag herself through the woods. She

831
00:49:16,374 --> 00:49:21,054
Speaker 4: couldn't see, she couldn't breathe, and she managed to drag

832
00:49:21,094 --> 00:49:23,974
Speaker 4: herself all the way out of the woods, probably like

833
00:49:24,054 --> 00:49:28,414
Speaker 4: one hundred yards, to a trail off the street. And

834
00:49:28,614 --> 00:49:32,694
Speaker 4: at that very moment, a bicyclist named Greg Steinberg, who

835
00:49:32,694 --> 00:49:35,894
Speaker 4: had just finished running a five k in downtown Waukeshaw

836
00:49:36,054 --> 00:49:39,654
Speaker 4: and he was bicycling home. He crossed the path and

837
00:49:39,654 --> 00:49:42,414
Speaker 4: he saw her, and he saved her.

838
00:49:42,534 --> 00:49:46,574
Speaker 3: He made the ninety one one call that saved her life.

839
00:49:47,054 --> 00:49:51,974
Speaker 2: What about Morgan and Anissa? How were they? Because obviously

840
00:49:52,014 --> 00:49:55,014
Speaker 2: word of a stabbing got out very quickly. Police are like,

841
00:49:56,334 --> 00:49:58,774
Speaker 2: we've got to find these other girls that you know,

842
00:49:59,174 --> 00:50:01,054
Speaker 2: how are they tracked down? And in what state were

843
00:50:01,094 --> 00:50:01,334
Speaker 2: they in?

844
00:50:02,214 --> 00:50:05,454
Speaker 4: So Morgan and Anissa after stabbing Bella, they took off.

845
00:50:05,494 --> 00:50:07,574
Speaker 4: Their plan was to go to what they thought was

846
00:50:07,614 --> 00:50:10,774
Speaker 4: slender Man's mansion called slender Ma, and they thought that

847
00:50:10,814 --> 00:50:12,814
Speaker 4: it was in the Nicolae National Forest, which was three

848
00:50:12,934 --> 00:50:15,654
Speaker 4: hundred miles away, and they were going to walk there

849
00:50:15,774 --> 00:50:19,414
Speaker 4: without a map or a phone or any provisions other

850
00:50:19,494 --> 00:50:22,254
Speaker 4: than some Maxi pads because Morgan had just gotten her

851
00:50:22,254 --> 00:50:26,214
Speaker 4: period and a couple of granola bars and some water bottles,

852
00:50:26,574 --> 00:50:30,174
Speaker 4: and they were twelve, and that was their plan. And

853
00:50:30,494 --> 00:50:33,774
Speaker 4: you know, they because they didn't have a compass or anything,

854
00:50:33,894 --> 00:50:36,054
Speaker 4: they walked a lot. They spent a lot of time

855
00:50:36,454 --> 00:50:39,454
Speaker 4: walking in the wrong direction. They followed the Fox River

856
00:50:39,494 --> 00:50:41,494
Speaker 4: north they knew that that went north, and then after

857
00:50:41,534 --> 00:50:44,814
Speaker 4: that they were did a meandering sort of walk trying

858
00:50:44,814 --> 00:50:46,854
Speaker 4: to get around the highway, and that slowed them down.

859
00:50:47,214 --> 00:50:49,614
Speaker 4: They did manage to walk about ten miles. But then

860
00:50:49,654 --> 00:50:54,694
Speaker 4: what happened was they decided to cross a busy highway

861
00:50:54,774 --> 00:50:58,694
Speaker 4: by walking onto the highway rather than under the highway.

862
00:50:59,174 --> 00:51:03,654
Speaker 4: And they got into the highway and a driver, you know,

863
00:51:04,054 --> 00:51:08,174
Speaker 4: saw these little girls four feet tall walking along the

864
00:51:08,214 --> 00:51:10,574
Speaker 4: side of a busy road called the police, and the

865
00:51:10,574 --> 00:51:14,014
Speaker 4: police were looking for two girls matching that description, one blonde,

866
00:51:14,054 --> 00:51:18,894
Speaker 4: one brunette, just under four feet and they came and

867
00:51:18,934 --> 00:51:21,654
Speaker 4: got them very quickly. And by that point Morgan and

868
00:51:21,694 --> 00:51:25,894
Speaker 4: Anissa were relieved because they were it had stopped being

869
00:51:25,974 --> 00:51:29,134
Speaker 4: fun and they had started to realize that slender Man

870
00:51:29,214 --> 00:51:30,494
Speaker 4: wasn't coming for them.

871
00:51:31,454 --> 00:51:35,254
Speaker 2: And Bella had been able to give those descriptions through

872
00:51:35,414 --> 00:51:36,854
Speaker 2: all of her injuries, so.

873
00:51:36,894 --> 00:51:40,534
Speaker 4: She was able to tell them it was my best friend.

874
00:51:41,334 --> 00:51:44,734
Speaker 4: Then she was whisked away into surgery, so she gave

875
00:51:44,974 --> 00:51:47,334
Speaker 4: the police the names of those girls. They were able

876
00:51:47,374 --> 00:51:50,734
Speaker 4: to then go to Morgan's house where her parents were,

877
00:51:50,814 --> 00:51:54,894
Speaker 4: and they also went to Aniss's house and got descriptions

878
00:51:54,934 --> 00:51:57,374
Speaker 4: of them and what they'd been wearing that way from

879
00:51:57,454 --> 00:51:58,134
Speaker 4: their parents.

880
00:51:58,614 --> 00:52:01,694
Speaker 2: I want to skip to those initial conversations that the

881
00:52:01,734 --> 00:52:07,254
Speaker 2: girls had with police because one their parents weren't with them.

882
00:52:07,454 --> 00:52:07,974
Speaker 2: Was that legal?

883
00:52:08,214 --> 00:52:09,134
Speaker 3: It is in Wisconsin.

884
00:52:09,174 --> 00:52:12,374
Speaker 4: A strange things are legal in Wisconsin, and one is

885
00:52:12,414 --> 00:52:16,534
Speaker 4: that you can interview a child about a crime without

886
00:52:16,574 --> 00:52:20,934
Speaker 4: a parent or attorney present unless the child specifically asks

887
00:52:21,014 --> 00:52:24,854
Speaker 4: for a lawyer, which, as you can imagine, most kids

888
00:52:24,934 --> 00:52:26,774
Speaker 4: are not thinking that way. They've been taught to trust

889
00:52:26,854 --> 00:52:30,014
Speaker 4: the police. Why would a police officer want to trick me?

890
00:52:30,094 --> 00:52:32,534
Speaker 4: Why would a police officer want to hurt me? Especially

891
00:52:32,534 --> 00:52:35,494
Speaker 4: in suburban communities, in white suburban communities, people feel that way.

892
00:52:36,174 --> 00:52:41,174
Speaker 4: So the police interviewed them. I'm interrupted for eight hours,

893
00:52:42,174 --> 00:52:44,094
Speaker 4: and they lied to their parents too about what they

894
00:52:44,094 --> 00:52:45,054
Speaker 4: were talking to them about.

895
00:52:45,334 --> 00:52:46,334
Speaker 3: And it's all legal.

896
00:52:47,094 --> 00:52:50,214
Speaker 2: How would you describe those conversations. The stuff that jumped

897
00:52:50,214 --> 00:52:52,534
Speaker 2: out to me, particularly from a Nissa, was I don't

898
00:52:52,574 --> 00:52:55,254
Speaker 2: think she really grasped what had happened. She was asking

899
00:52:55,294 --> 00:52:57,534
Speaker 2: things like what am I going to get my clothes back?

900
00:52:57,574 --> 00:52:59,814
Speaker 2: And oh, I haven't taken my antihistamy today. It was

901
00:52:59,814 --> 00:53:03,774
Speaker 2: almost like she didn't realize what had happened. Yeah, how

902
00:53:03,774 --> 00:53:07,174
Speaker 2: would you kind of look at those conversations?

903
00:53:07,494 --> 00:53:12,094
Speaker 4: I think is is wild, But if you watch it,

904
00:53:12,174 --> 00:53:15,174
Speaker 4: I mean what I thought was just in Morgan's case,

905
00:53:15,214 --> 00:53:16,774
Speaker 4: I thought, this cop.

906
00:53:16,574 --> 00:53:18,574
Speaker 3: Really has it out for her, he really hates her.

907
00:53:18,974 --> 00:53:23,534
Speaker 4: And also you can see how mentally ill Morgan is.

908
00:53:23,574 --> 00:53:26,054
Speaker 4: You can see all of the science that she's just

909
00:53:26,134 --> 00:53:28,894
Speaker 4: completely unraveling, and that she's sick and that she needs

910
00:53:29,414 --> 00:53:33,414
Speaker 4: she needs help. And with a Nissa, I mean, I

911
00:53:33,974 --> 00:53:36,694
Speaker 4: think you see a learning disability on full display. Like

912
00:53:36,734 --> 00:53:40,494
Speaker 4: that's something that kind of comes out throughout this case.

913
00:53:40,694 --> 00:53:42,614
Speaker 4: Is if you want to see a monster in these girls,

914
00:53:42,654 --> 00:53:45,094
Speaker 4: you can see a monster. But if you go into

915
00:53:45,174 --> 00:53:49,934
Speaker 4: it with the context of their situations of a Nissa's

916
00:53:50,934 --> 00:53:57,134
Speaker 4: incredibly difficult disability in terms of her processing information and

917
00:53:57,214 --> 00:54:00,654
Speaker 4: in terms of Morgan being in a state of psychosis,

918
00:54:00,734 --> 00:54:02,614
Speaker 4: you can see that she's in a state of psychosis.

919
00:54:02,614 --> 00:54:05,054
Speaker 4: That's the short answer is that she is in a

920
00:54:05,054 --> 00:54:10,014
Speaker 4: state of psychosis for the entire interview, and the the

921
00:54:10,134 --> 00:54:16,694
Speaker 4: police officer questioning her is treating her like a serial killer.

922
00:54:17,054 --> 00:54:21,614
Speaker 4: And that's the dynamic in her interrogation room and with

923
00:54:21,694 --> 00:54:24,454
Speaker 4: a niece says, she has no idea, she has no

924
00:54:24,534 --> 00:54:26,654
Speaker 4: idea how much trouble she is, and she wants to

925
00:54:26,654 --> 00:54:28,534
Speaker 4: go back to school on Monday. She wants to make

926
00:54:28,574 --> 00:54:32,214
Speaker 4: sure that she'll be able to do that. And they

927
00:54:32,294 --> 00:54:34,294
Speaker 4: just they talk and talk and talk and talk and

928
00:54:34,334 --> 00:54:38,534
Speaker 4: talk for hours, and by the time they go out

929
00:54:38,534 --> 00:54:43,454
Speaker 4: of there, the police have secured a lengthy confession with

930
00:54:43,854 --> 00:54:47,854
Speaker 4: the explicit purpose of trying to put the girls into

931
00:54:47,894 --> 00:54:51,214
Speaker 4: an adult prison for over one hundred years. The police

932
00:54:51,214 --> 00:54:55,054
Speaker 4: officer's goal that day was to incarcerate the girls for

933
00:54:55,094 --> 00:54:59,334
Speaker 4: as long as possible and the most extreme environment possible

934
00:54:59,454 --> 00:55:02,854
Speaker 4: at an adult women's prison. It was not to understand

935
00:55:02,854 --> 00:55:05,374
Speaker 4: the crime or why it happened, and it was not

936
00:55:05,534 --> 00:55:08,374
Speaker 4: to yeah, it was not to have a deeper understanding

937
00:55:08,414 --> 00:55:10,134
Speaker 4: of the case. It was to punish the case, and

938
00:55:10,174 --> 00:55:12,734
Speaker 4: so they went about it using the methods that would

939
00:55:12,734 --> 00:55:13,654
Speaker 4: best serve that goal.

940
00:55:14,214 --> 00:55:19,014
Speaker 2: Morgan's mental health kind of was assessed five or so

941
00:55:19,174 --> 00:55:22,014
Speaker 2: days into prison. So old this it happened, she'd been

942
00:55:22,294 --> 00:55:27,334
Speaker 2: placed into a prison. How did her mental health kind

943
00:55:27,334 --> 00:55:31,254
Speaker 2: of continue to unravel once she was incarcerated, because it

944
00:55:31,334 --> 00:55:34,574
Speaker 2: was in that first prison visit that her parents finally

945
00:55:34,654 --> 00:55:35,734
Speaker 2: kind of clicked and were.

946
00:55:35,614 --> 00:55:37,774
Speaker 3: Like, oh yeah, yeah.

947
00:55:37,894 --> 00:55:40,934
Speaker 4: People people are like, well, how did she manage? How

948
00:55:40,934 --> 00:55:42,654
Speaker 4: did no one manage to see it? Well, part of

949
00:55:42,694 --> 00:55:45,814
Speaker 4: it is that she hid it, and you know, she

950
00:55:45,934 --> 00:55:50,214
Speaker 4: hid it as well as an extremely intelligent, high IQ

951
00:55:50,854 --> 00:55:54,734
Speaker 4: twelve year old girl with emerging psychosis can hide it.

952
00:55:54,934 --> 00:55:56,254
Speaker 4: And at the end, she was having a lot of

953
00:55:56,294 --> 00:55:58,694
Speaker 4: trouble hiding it leading up to the crime, but her

954
00:55:58,694 --> 00:56:01,574
Speaker 4: friends were helping her hide it. Anissa was helping her

955
00:56:01,654 --> 00:56:03,454
Speaker 4: hide it, like Bella was helping her hide it. Other

956
00:56:03,534 --> 00:56:05,454
Speaker 4: kids were like, what's going on? But they were managing

957
00:56:05,454 --> 00:56:08,294
Speaker 4: to sort of protect her from any sort of adult scrutiny.

958
00:56:08,734 --> 00:56:11,614
Speaker 4: But after crime occurred, she could no longer hide it

959
00:56:11,654 --> 00:56:14,734
Speaker 4: because she had also gone through a traumatic event. When

960
00:56:14,774 --> 00:56:18,814
Speaker 4: you try to kill somebody, it sticks in your brain

961
00:56:19,254 --> 00:56:22,334
Speaker 4: in a real way. It causes PTSD the same way

962
00:56:22,454 --> 00:56:25,774
Speaker 4: that you know with someone else trying to kill you

963
00:56:25,774 --> 00:56:29,814
Speaker 4: will stick in your brain. It's extremely violent and it

964
00:56:29,854 --> 00:56:32,534
Speaker 4: broke her and it made her snap and from then

965
00:56:32,734 --> 00:56:35,734
Speaker 4: on she could not hide the symptoms that had been

966
00:56:35,774 --> 00:56:38,894
Speaker 4: plaguing her prior to that, so she was talking to

967
00:56:38,974 --> 00:56:41,294
Speaker 4: herself in the open, in front of everybody.

968
00:56:41,694 --> 00:56:44,374
Speaker 3: As soon as she was checked into the jail, she.

969
00:56:44,374 --> 00:56:48,894
Speaker 4: Was flagged for a psych evaluation and when her parents,

970
00:56:48,934 --> 00:56:50,654
Speaker 4: by the time her parents managed to get in to

971
00:56:50,694 --> 00:56:54,094
Speaker 4: see her, which didn't happen for many, many many days,

972
00:56:54,534 --> 00:56:58,014
Speaker 4: they weren't allowed in. She had not washed, she was

973
00:56:58,094 --> 00:57:00,694
Speaker 4: muttering to herself. She didn't even seem to know that

974
00:57:00,734 --> 00:57:03,694
Speaker 4: they were there, so she had a full psychotic break

975
00:57:04,774 --> 00:57:05,374
Speaker 4: post crime.

976
00:57:05,934 --> 00:57:10,254
Speaker 2: Was Anissa also assist for her mental health at that time.

977
00:57:10,534 --> 00:57:15,494
Speaker 4: So that's the really messed up part about the post

978
00:57:15,534 --> 00:57:18,294
Speaker 4: crime phase of this story is that because they were

979
00:57:18,374 --> 00:57:21,774
Speaker 4: charged as adults, because that is the law in Wisconsin,

980
00:57:22,574 --> 00:57:27,534
Speaker 4: they did not receive any therapeutic services, which is very

981
00:57:27,574 --> 00:57:31,254
Speaker 4: messed up. We do provide them to children automatically in

982
00:57:31,294 --> 00:57:34,574
Speaker 4: the United States, but not to adults, and so because

983
00:57:34,614 --> 00:57:38,414
Speaker 4: they were adults, they were denied you know, counseling, They

984
00:57:38,414 --> 00:57:41,414
Speaker 4: were denied you know, sort of diagnostic services for a

985
00:57:41,534 --> 00:57:42,494
Speaker 4: very very long time.

986
00:57:42,814 --> 00:57:44,054
Speaker 3: And it was only.

987
00:57:43,894 --> 00:57:50,814
Speaker 4: Because Morgan's attorney was having doctors assess her for the

988
00:57:50,974 --> 00:57:54,814
Speaker 4: trial phase that she was able because and it was

989
00:57:54,814 --> 00:57:58,694
Speaker 4: only because her attorney petitioned really, really, really hard to

990
00:57:58,694 --> 00:58:01,654
Speaker 4: get her assessed that she was taking care of a

991
00:58:01,774 --> 00:58:06,974
Speaker 4: niece of was never really taking care of therapeutically, at

992
00:58:07,054 --> 00:58:11,614
Speaker 4: least not during the preincarceration phase, which is just so

993
00:58:11,734 --> 00:58:14,094
Speaker 4: sad she I mean, she really.

994
00:58:13,814 --> 00:58:17,054
Speaker 3: Could have used some help during that time.

995
00:58:16,814 --> 00:58:18,934
Speaker 2: Because it's not too And this is what a lot

996
00:58:18,934 --> 00:58:22,774
Speaker 2: of people think that talking about mental health is excusing

997
00:58:22,814 --> 00:58:25,974
Speaker 2: the crime, which it's not. But it's hard to separate

998
00:58:26,014 --> 00:58:29,134
Speaker 2: the two when it comes to this particular story, particularly

999
00:58:29,174 --> 00:58:30,734
Speaker 2: when we kind of skip forward a bit and we

1000
00:58:30,774 --> 00:58:33,414
Speaker 2: do talk about the assessments that these two girls end

1001
00:58:33,494 --> 00:58:39,294
Speaker 2: up getting. Morgan is eventually diagnosed with schizophrenia, and I mean,

1002
00:58:39,334 --> 00:58:41,134
Speaker 2: you've used a sentence in your book that stick to me.

1003
00:58:41,494 --> 00:58:44,134
Speaker 2: Sickness cooked her brain like a fever to the point

1004
00:58:44,134 --> 00:58:47,374
Speaker 2: where she didn't even really remember the crime, right. Can

1005
00:58:47,374 --> 00:58:47,934
Speaker 2: you talk to that?

1006
00:58:48,494 --> 00:58:51,534
Speaker 4: Yeah, she was really insulated from the event itself. She

1007
00:58:51,734 --> 00:58:54,614
Speaker 4: seemed to the people around her to be remorseless because

1008
00:58:54,614 --> 00:58:56,974
Speaker 4: she was just lost in a world of her of

1009
00:58:57,334 --> 00:59:03,014
Speaker 4: her own making, from her perspective, Slenderman is coming for her.

1010
00:59:03,414 --> 00:59:05,454
Speaker 4: She is right now in a jail, but she's also

1011
00:59:05,614 --> 00:59:10,694
Speaker 4: there's unicorns in the jail, and there's like Barack Obama

1012
00:59:10,894 --> 00:59:16,054
Speaker 4: is riding through naked on a purple dinosaur. Like that's

1013
00:59:16,094 --> 00:59:19,054
Speaker 4: what she That's what she was seeing during that time.

1014
00:59:19,494 --> 00:59:22,814
Speaker 4: So it wasn't until they put her on medication. She

1015
00:59:22,974 --> 00:59:25,214
Speaker 4: told me once that it took four years for her

1016
00:59:25,254 --> 00:59:27,934
Speaker 4: to accept that Slenderman wasn't coming and to realize what

1017
00:59:28,014 --> 00:59:28,614
Speaker 4: she had done.

1018
00:59:29,894 --> 00:59:34,054
Speaker 2: Right, which people would say is her not showing remorse.

1019
00:59:34,094 --> 00:59:37,774
Speaker 4: Right, I'll tell you that she feels an extreme amount

1020
00:59:37,774 --> 00:59:41,414
Speaker 4: of remorse. I mean it's she hates herself to this

1021
00:59:41,534 --> 00:59:44,734
Speaker 4: day on such a deep level. This is something that

1022
00:59:44,774 --> 00:59:48,854
Speaker 4: she lives with and relives every day. And she misses Bella.

1023
00:59:49,214 --> 00:59:52,374
Speaker 4: That's why she chose her when they were children, or

1024
00:59:52,414 --> 00:59:55,054
Speaker 4: that's why you know, that's why this was the crime

1025
00:59:55,174 --> 00:59:57,294
Speaker 4: is because Morgan loved Bella, not because she hated her.

1026
00:59:57,374 --> 01:00:00,854
Speaker 4: She misses her so much. From one person's point of view,

1027
01:00:00,854 --> 01:00:03,494
Speaker 4: it might look like evil, and then if you look

1028
01:00:03,534 --> 01:00:05,414
Speaker 4: at it in a different way, it's like this person

1029
01:00:05,494 --> 01:00:08,814
Speaker 4: is extremely sick and a danger to themselves and others.

1030
01:00:09,534 --> 01:00:13,334
Speaker 4: But it was definitely mistaken as remorselessness, and it wasn't that.

1031
01:00:13,414 --> 01:00:16,094
Speaker 4: It was just that her reality contact was so limited

1032
01:00:16,534 --> 01:00:21,414
Speaker 4: that she wasn't even really grounded in the realization that

1033
01:00:21,734 --> 01:00:23,054
Speaker 4: she had stabbed her best friend.

1034
01:00:24,014 --> 01:00:27,374
Speaker 2: And then with a Nissa, You've talked about the kind

1035
01:00:27,414 --> 01:00:31,094
Speaker 2: of learning disability, but she is also eventually diagnosed with

1036
01:00:31,534 --> 01:00:33,894
Speaker 2: and I'm like, Butcher this but fully you do, which

1037
01:00:33,934 --> 01:00:36,054
Speaker 2: is kind of like a shared psychotic disorder.

1038
01:00:36,254 --> 01:00:37,774
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, Oh.

1039
01:00:37,854 --> 01:00:40,374
Speaker 4: One thing I do want to say about the emotional,

1040
01:00:40,494 --> 01:00:42,654
Speaker 4: the remorse and the mental illness thing is that something

1041
01:00:42,654 --> 01:00:44,254
Speaker 4: that Morgan's mom said to me that I thought was

1042
01:00:44,254 --> 01:00:46,374
Speaker 4: really profound and simple and true is that when you're

1043
01:00:46,974 --> 01:00:50,734
Speaker 4: when you have psychosis, you don't have emotions. You don't

1044
01:00:50,734 --> 01:00:51,334
Speaker 4: have them at all.

1045
01:00:52,094 --> 01:00:54,534
Speaker 3: So that's another way of looking at it.

1046
01:00:54,774 --> 01:01:02,054
Speaker 4: Yes, So after the crime, Nissa was diagnosed with FALIA

1047
01:01:02,854 --> 01:01:08,334
Speaker 4: and she got very very lucky in this Wisconsin legal system.

1048
01:01:08,374 --> 01:01:11,854
Speaker 4: In the US legal system, it is so hard to

1049
01:01:12,054 --> 01:01:15,934
Speaker 4: get an NNGRI verdict not guilty by reason Evan Sandy.

1050
01:01:15,974 --> 01:01:18,854
Speaker 4: People think it's very widespread in common. It is statistically

1051
01:01:19,014 --> 01:01:24,534
Speaker 4: almost impossible to get that verdict from jury's So she

1052
01:01:24,694 --> 01:01:26,734
Speaker 4: was very lucky to have gotten it at all.

1053
01:01:26,774 --> 01:01:30,974
Speaker 3: But the defense was very creative. They had to get creative.

1054
01:01:30,654 --> 01:01:33,374
Speaker 4: Because she didn't have a mental illness. She had a

1055
01:01:33,454 --> 01:01:36,454
Speaker 4: learning disability, which I don't know why they didn't lean

1056
01:01:36,454 --> 01:01:40,334
Speaker 4: into that more, honestly, but they might have just it

1057
01:01:40,414 --> 01:01:43,374
Speaker 4: might have been too precarious an outcome, but they just

1058
01:01:44,254 --> 01:01:46,214
Speaker 4: The Falia did thing where it came from is that

1059
01:01:46,254 --> 01:01:48,214
Speaker 4: she hadn't been diagnosed with a mental illness, but they

1060
01:01:48,214 --> 01:01:50,734
Speaker 4: needed to. They were trying to put her into a

1061
01:01:50,774 --> 01:01:53,454
Speaker 4: safer environment than prison, and a hospital would have been

1062
01:01:53,494 --> 01:01:55,214
Speaker 4: a safer environment because she was going to be in

1063
01:01:55,254 --> 01:01:59,134
Speaker 4: an adult setting regardless. And so Falia did a nineteenth

1064
01:01:59,134 --> 01:02:02,014
Speaker 4: century French diagnosis, which means the madness of tune. It

1065
01:02:02,054 --> 01:02:07,094
Speaker 4: basically is when one person's mental illness spreads to the

1066
01:02:07,174 --> 01:02:09,774
Speaker 4: other because of the closeness of their relationship, and it

1067
01:02:09,854 --> 01:02:15,294
Speaker 4: usually only happens in like married couples, and it does

1068
01:02:15,334 --> 01:02:17,734
Speaker 4: happen where two people get wrapped in a delusion even

1069
01:02:17,774 --> 01:02:20,574
Speaker 4: though only one of them has a mental illness diagnosis.

1070
01:02:21,094 --> 01:02:23,534
Speaker 3: And so they used that argument with Anissa.

1071
01:02:23,614 --> 01:02:26,854
Speaker 4: But I thought the more persuasive thing, honestly, was that

1072
01:02:26,894 --> 01:02:31,054
Speaker 4: she was so severely learning disabled. I mean, that's kind

1073
01:02:31,054 --> 01:02:33,374
Speaker 4: of all you have to know in that situation. But

1074
01:02:33,734 --> 01:02:39,854
Speaker 4: it was a very very creative argument to use, and

1075
01:02:40,094 --> 01:02:44,534
Speaker 4: the jury, the jury agreed, and they got very lucky

1076
01:02:44,534 --> 01:02:44,774
Speaker 4: with that.

1077
01:02:45,694 --> 01:02:47,934
Speaker 2: So what was the decision? What did the jury decide?

1078
01:02:48,214 --> 01:02:53,494
Speaker 4: The jury decided to give her an ngri verdict, which

1079
01:02:53,534 --> 01:02:57,414
Speaker 4: meant that she would be serving out a sentence yet

1080
01:02:57,454 --> 01:03:01,054
Speaker 4: to be determined by the judge in a hospital instead

1081
01:03:01,054 --> 01:03:06,374
Speaker 4: of a prison, and he gave her twenty years, which

1082
01:03:06,894 --> 01:03:09,334
Speaker 4: was less than she would have been serving in prison.

1083
01:03:10,374 --> 01:03:13,294
Speaker 3: Luckily, she got up sooner, sooner than that. She didn't.

1084
01:03:13,334 --> 01:03:15,214
Speaker 4: She had to spend the rest of her childhood and

1085
01:03:15,214 --> 01:03:18,534
Speaker 4: an adults taking out her board, but she got up.

1086
01:03:19,334 --> 01:03:24,534
Speaker 2: Morgan's proceedings happened after a niece's. How different would they

1087
01:03:24,654 --> 01:03:27,374
Speaker 2: because she didn't end up going to trial. She took

1088
01:03:27,374 --> 01:03:28,654
Speaker 2: a play agreement right.

1089
01:03:29,134 --> 01:03:31,734
Speaker 4: There were a couple of things happening. Bella's family wanted

1090
01:03:31,774 --> 01:03:33,614
Speaker 4: to avoid a trial because if there were a trial,

1091
01:03:33,934 --> 01:03:36,534
Speaker 4: then that Bella would have to testify, and they were

1092
01:03:36,574 --> 01:03:38,294
Speaker 4: really concerned about that and what it would do to

1093
01:03:38,334 --> 01:03:42,574
Speaker 4: her psychologically. Morgan's team wanted to avoid it because if

1094
01:03:42,614 --> 01:03:45,214
Speaker 4: she had been found guilty, you know, she's going to

1095
01:03:45,254 --> 01:03:48,814
Speaker 4: go to prison for at least sixty five years, and

1096
01:03:48,894 --> 01:03:53,654
Speaker 4: she was sick, and she had been denied medication for

1097
01:03:53,774 --> 01:03:56,814
Speaker 4: nineteen months. She was still, you know, really really struggling,

1098
01:03:57,414 --> 01:04:01,094
Speaker 4: and they wanted her to get therapeutic treatment, and they

1099
01:04:01,134 --> 01:04:03,054
Speaker 4: thought that that would be more likely to happen in

1100
01:04:03,094 --> 01:04:08,854
Speaker 4: a hospital. There was also a concern that a niece's verdict,

1101
01:04:08,854 --> 01:04:11,334
Speaker 4: which had shocked to the local community. People were very

1102
01:04:11,334 --> 01:04:14,134
Speaker 4: at odds about it. I mean, on its face, it

1103
01:04:14,174 --> 01:04:18,054
Speaker 4: doesn't sound great that a girl who conspired to stab

1104
01:04:18,574 --> 01:04:24,294
Speaker 4: another local girl got out of prison time because of.

1105
01:04:25,894 --> 01:04:27,414
Speaker 3: I mean, the entire.

1106
01:04:27,214 --> 01:04:31,014
Speaker 4: Thing was just very controversial locally, especially because so many

1107
01:04:31,054 --> 01:04:34,054
Speaker 4: of the local population did not believe that mental illness

1108
01:04:34,134 --> 01:04:36,054
Speaker 4: was real, and so the fact that she had gotten

1109
01:04:36,054 --> 01:04:39,134
Speaker 4: off and she didn't even have a mental illness diagnosed

1110
01:04:39,574 --> 01:04:43,054
Speaker 4: was really angeringto people. And Morgan's team was concerned that

1111
01:04:43,174 --> 01:04:45,414
Speaker 4: if her case went to child even though she had

1112
01:04:45,414 --> 01:04:48,054
Speaker 4: been diagnosed with schizophrenia, even though there was all of

1113
01:04:48,054 --> 01:04:50,934
Speaker 4: this documentation around her mental illness, they were concerned that

1114
01:04:51,974 --> 01:04:54,654
Speaker 4: people would be so angry that the jury would issue

1115
01:04:54,654 --> 01:04:57,214
Speaker 4: a reactionary verdict and at least want to send one

1116
01:04:57,254 --> 01:04:59,734
Speaker 4: of them to prison, you know, So they didn't feel

1117
01:04:59,734 --> 01:05:02,414
Speaker 4: like it was a short bet, even though it probably

1118
01:05:02,414 --> 01:05:04,814
Speaker 4: should have been. So they took a plea agreement and

1119
01:05:05,334 --> 01:05:10,974
Speaker 4: the judge agreed to give her an NNGRI, and he

1120
01:05:11,214 --> 01:05:14,694
Speaker 4: sentenced her to the forensic hospital for forty years.

1121
01:05:15,334 --> 01:05:19,214
Speaker 2: How did Bella and her parents react to those sentences

1122
01:05:19,294 --> 01:05:20,214
Speaker 2: or verdicts?

1123
01:05:21,054 --> 01:05:21,614
Speaker 3: I mean.

1124
01:05:23,334 --> 01:05:28,774
Speaker 4: Bella's family, what they said, their sort of press quotes

1125
01:05:28,814 --> 01:05:35,934
Speaker 4: about it and things basically conveyed that it was unfair

1126
01:05:36,614 --> 01:05:43,574
Speaker 4: that she didn't have to meet the harshest consequences for

1127
01:05:43,694 --> 01:05:46,494
Speaker 4: her behavior. So I don't think that they were were

1128
01:05:46,534 --> 01:05:48,134
Speaker 4: thrilled about it at the time. I think that they

1129
01:05:48,134 --> 01:05:51,534
Speaker 4: wanted the harshest punishment for her. I think that Bella

1130
01:05:51,814 --> 01:05:54,694
Speaker 4: probably is just from what I know of her, would

1131
01:05:54,694 --> 01:05:56,454
Speaker 4: have been the kind of person who actually would have

1132
01:05:56,454 --> 01:05:58,054
Speaker 4: been happy that Morgan was going to be at a

1133
01:05:58,094 --> 01:06:01,534
Speaker 4: hospital getting sort of the help that she needed, but

1134
01:06:01,574 --> 01:06:05,334
Speaker 4: that her representatives, then her spokes sorry, her spokes people,

1135
01:06:05,614 --> 01:06:06,614
Speaker 4: said that it wasn't fair.

1136
01:06:06,894 --> 01:06:10,654
Speaker 2: Well, these girls didn't end up serving twenty and forty years,

1137
01:06:10,854 --> 01:06:13,294
Speaker 2: and Lisa got out in twenty twenty one, and as

1138
01:06:13,294 --> 01:06:17,414
Speaker 2: we've mentioned, Morgan was released this year January twenty twenty five,

1139
01:06:17,974 --> 01:06:21,294
Speaker 2: so three years and you know a few more than that, respectively.

1140
01:06:22,374 --> 01:06:26,094
Speaker 2: Do we know how they're doing. Have you spoken to Morgan?

1141
01:06:26,894 --> 01:06:34,094
Speaker 4: I've heard from her family very I mean, I think.

1142
01:06:33,814 --> 01:06:37,894
Speaker 3: That it's surreal the idea that she might be able to.

1143
01:06:39,414 --> 01:06:42,054
Speaker 4: That she will that might that she will be able

1144
01:06:42,094 --> 01:06:45,134
Speaker 4: to hug her mother outside of a legal medical setting

1145
01:06:45,174 --> 01:06:47,014
Speaker 4: for the first time since she was twelve years old.

1146
01:06:48,214 --> 01:06:53,094
Speaker 4: And I think like is struggling to wrap her mind around,

1147
01:06:53,494 --> 01:06:55,974
Speaker 4: in a good way, around the idea that she might

1148
01:06:56,014 --> 01:06:57,934
Speaker 4: be able to go do normal things like go to

1149
01:06:57,934 --> 01:07:02,414
Speaker 4: a library, you know, be allowed in and out of

1150
01:07:02,454 --> 01:07:03,854
Speaker 4: the building where she lives.

1151
01:07:04,014 --> 01:07:07,374
Speaker 3: You know, Like, I think it's good.

1152
01:07:07,454 --> 01:07:09,454
Speaker 4: I think it's surreal, And I think her family is

1153
01:07:09,574 --> 01:07:13,054
Speaker 4: as completely overjoyed to have her back. They really didn't

1154
01:07:13,054 --> 01:07:15,454
Speaker 4: think that they were gonna that they were going to

1155
01:07:15,934 --> 01:07:17,894
Speaker 4: have this moment. They weren't, you know, they weren't sure

1156
01:07:17,934 --> 01:07:18,254
Speaker 4: about that.

1157
01:07:18,334 --> 01:07:23,014
Speaker 2: So when the media started reporting on Morgan's release in

1158
01:07:23,134 --> 01:07:26,334
Speaker 2: January twenty twenty five, so many years after those additial headlines,

1159
01:07:26,374 --> 01:07:30,054
Speaker 2: do you think that the media has learned anything? Do

1160
01:07:30,054 --> 01:07:32,254
Speaker 2: you think society has learned anything? Are we treating this

1161
01:07:32,334 --> 01:07:33,694
Speaker 2: case differently now.

1162
01:07:33,934 --> 01:07:37,014
Speaker 4: I think we are, I think, and I think it

1163
01:07:37,094 --> 01:07:40,214
Speaker 4: makes me feel really proud again to be from Wisconsin,

1164
01:07:40,494 --> 01:07:44,414
Speaker 4: a place that has such a progressive history, such a

1165
01:07:44,414 --> 01:07:50,774
Speaker 4: community oriented history. And I also think that it signals

1166
01:07:51,414 --> 01:07:54,734
Speaker 4: a few changes in the culture at large. I think

1167
01:07:54,774 --> 01:07:58,134
Speaker 4: that there is much more awareness about mental illness and

1168
01:07:58,174 --> 01:08:02,174
Speaker 4: mental health in general, and neurological diversity. You know, there's

1169
01:08:02,214 --> 01:08:06,974
Speaker 4: a real understanding now of neurodiversity, and so we can

1170
01:08:07,014 --> 01:08:09,614
Speaker 4: talk about the case unlike we did back then, and

1171
01:08:09,734 --> 01:08:12,694
Speaker 4: talk about the case taking for granted that these things

1172
01:08:12,694 --> 01:08:16,094
Speaker 4: are true, that different human brains are different depending on

1173
01:08:16,134 --> 01:08:20,614
Speaker 4: the circumstances of our upbringings and also our biology. So

1174
01:08:21,054 --> 01:08:28,494
Speaker 4: the same sort of reviled girl who was really burned

1175
01:08:28,494 --> 01:08:33,774
Speaker 4: by society in twenty fourteen, she can, you know, exit,

1176
01:08:33,894 --> 01:08:35,934
Speaker 4: she can be released in the same people who are

1177
01:08:35,974 --> 01:08:38,614
Speaker 4: so angry about her don't even know that she's out there.

1178
01:08:38,734 --> 01:08:40,374
Speaker 4: They don't even know it out there anymore. So I

1179
01:08:40,414 --> 01:08:43,614
Speaker 4: think I don't know that the way the internet was

1180
01:08:43,614 --> 01:08:45,734
Speaker 4: in twenty fourteen, if it were still that way, I

1181
01:08:45,734 --> 01:08:48,534
Speaker 4: don't know if we'd be getting this same decision, because

1182
01:08:49,174 --> 01:08:53,814
Speaker 4: the judge would on the case would still feel very scrutinized.

1183
01:08:54,734 --> 01:08:58,094
Speaker 2: Lastly, what do you want people to take away from

1184
01:08:58,174 --> 01:09:01,334
Speaker 2: hearing kind of this version of events, your version of

1185
01:09:01,374 --> 01:09:05,534
Speaker 2: events from the book of kind of delving into more

1186
01:09:05,574 --> 01:09:06,374
Speaker 2: than just the headline.

1187
01:09:07,134 --> 01:09:11,614
Speaker 4: I would invite people to be interested in the gray

1188
01:09:11,694 --> 01:09:14,774
Speaker 4: areas of like good and evil. And you know, we

1189
01:09:14,814 --> 01:09:19,054
Speaker 4: can be very black and white as as human beings

1190
01:09:19,094 --> 01:09:21,574
Speaker 4: in terms of understanding the world. And if you put

1191
01:09:21,614 --> 01:09:24,174
Speaker 4: it into these two categories, you feel a bit safer because,

1192
01:09:24,214 --> 01:09:27,134
Speaker 4: of course none of us would ever be exposed to

1193
01:09:27,174 --> 01:09:31,214
Speaker 4: evil because we're good, you know. But yeah, I would

1194
01:09:31,214 --> 01:09:33,814
Speaker 4: just invite people into the gray area this story because

1195
01:09:33,854 --> 01:09:38,454
Speaker 4: I think once, once you understand more about it, you

1196
01:09:38,574 --> 01:09:41,494
Speaker 4: realize that something like this could happen to anybody. When

1197
01:09:41,534 --> 01:09:43,454
Speaker 4: a lot of people hear about this story, they think,

1198
01:09:44,174 --> 01:09:46,774
Speaker 4: what if my child was stabbed? And now, having looked

1199
01:09:46,774 --> 01:09:50,614
Speaker 4: at it a bit more closely, I am more haunted

1200
01:09:50,614 --> 01:09:52,894
Speaker 4: by the question of, like, what if my child stabs somebody?

1201
01:09:53,174 --> 01:09:55,894
Speaker 4: What if I miss something like what will you know?

1202
01:09:56,814 --> 01:10:03,254
Speaker 4: And and something like this happened. I think anybody, anybody,

1203
01:10:03,294 --> 01:10:09,454
Speaker 4: under the wrong set of circumstances, can become an attempted killer.

1204
01:10:09,654 --> 01:10:13,174
Speaker 4: And I think understanding that part of human reality and

1205
01:10:13,174 --> 01:10:13,894
Speaker 4: a human psyche.

1206
01:10:14,454 --> 01:10:16,414
Speaker 3: I don't know. To me, it feels important.

1207
01:10:20,214 --> 01:10:22,694
Speaker 2: Thanks to Kathleen for helping us to tell this story.

1208
01:10:23,094 --> 01:10:26,254
Speaker 2: True Crime Conversations is a Muma mea podcast hosted and

1209
01:10:26,254 --> 01:10:29,974
Speaker 2: produced by me Jemma Bath and Tarlie Blackman, with audio

1210
01:10:30,014 --> 01:10:33,454
Speaker 2: design by Jacob Brown. Thanks so much for listening. I'll

1211
01:10:33,454 --> 01:10:36,014
Speaker 2: be back next week with another True Crime Conversation.

1212
01:10:42,734 --> 01:10:45,494
Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed this episode of True Crime Conversations.

1213
01:10:45,574 --> 01:10:47,774
Speaker 1: If you're after more stories of some of the world's

1214
01:10:47,814 --> 01:10:50,614
Speaker 1: most notorious crimes, there'll be a link to follow the

1215
01:10:50,614 --> 01:10:53,694
Speaker 1: podcast in our show notes, and of course we will

1216
01:10:53,694 --> 01:10:55,974
Speaker 1: be back in your feed six am tomorrow