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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mother mea podcast. Mama Mia acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and orders. This podcast was

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Speaker 1: recorded on Hello True Crime Conversations listeners. Today, I wanted

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Speaker 1: to share with you another episode of Mamma MIA's news

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Speaker 1: podcast The Quickie. In this episode, Claire Murphy delves into

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Speaker 1: a case that has rocked France and sparked protests outside

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Speaker 1: the courthouse in Avignon. For fifty years, Dominique and Jizelle

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Speaker 1: Pelicot were married, but for a decade of their union,

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Speaker 1: Gizelle was unknowingly drugged and repeatedly assaulted by dozens of men,

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Speaker 1: an unimaginable betrayal. Now, as a survivor, she's speaking out,

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Speaker 1: seeking justice and fighting to be heard. In this episode,

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Speaker 1: Claire speaks with a clinical forensic psychologist and criminal lawyer

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Speaker 1: about the legal protections for victim survivors and what would

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Speaker 1: happen if this case were to unfold here in Australia.

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Speaker 1: Let us know what you think about the episode and

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Speaker 1: if it's helped you to be better in Fomed about

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Speaker 1: the case.

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Speaker 2: Hi, I'm Claire Murphy. This is Mma MIA's daily news podcast,

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Speaker 2: The Quickie. Just a warning this episode deals with a

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Speaker 2: rape case that is currently underway in France. It includes

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Speaker 2: descriptions of sexual assault. If this is a tough topic

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Speaker 2: for you, please take care when listening. In September twenty twenty,

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Speaker 2: a man was caught secretly filming under women's skirts at

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Speaker 2: a shopping center in France. What police would discover after

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Speaker 2: his arrest would lead to a rape trial involving another

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Speaker 2: fifty men. Today will delve into the case of Dominic

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Speaker 2: Pelicot and the man he recruited into his sick, twisted world.

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Speaker 2: For many years, Giselle was struggling with her health. She'd

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Speaker 2: been losing hair, losing weight, and her memory was failing.

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Speaker 2: She'd sometimes feel like whole days would of which she

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Speaker 2: would have little to no recollection. Her friends and her

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Speaker 2: children became concerned that she may be suffering from Alzheimer's

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Speaker 2: after seeing her sit for hours in what seemed like

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Speaker 2: a trance. But all of these health conditions would come

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Speaker 2: into razor sharp focus after her husband was arrested in

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Speaker 2: a local shopping center near where they lived in France.

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Speaker 2: It was twenty twenty and Dominic Pelicot had been caught

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Speaker 2: filming up women's skirts. When police searched his computer, they

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Speaker 2: made a shocking discovery hundreds of photos and videos showing

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Speaker 2: his unconscious wife being sexually assaulted by numerous men. Investigators

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Speaker 2: also found online chatlogs where Dominic had recruited strangers to

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Speaker 2: come to his home and have sex with his sedated wife.

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Speaker 2: He allegedly gave explicit instructions to avoid wearing cologne or

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Speaker 2: smelling of cigarettes, and to leave immediately if she showed

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Speaker 2: any signs of waking. Giselle, now in her seventies, had

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Speaker 2: no memory or knowledge of the assasults. That was until

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Speaker 2: police told her. For years she'd experience these unexplained health

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Speaker 2: issues and memory loss. In reality, she was being repeatedly

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Speaker 2: drugged and assaulted. Prosecutors say Dominic began these assaults on

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Speaker 2: his wife all the way back in twenty eleven, when

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Speaker 2: they lived near Paris. The abuse continued after they moved

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Speaker 2: to Masign in Provence in twenty thirteen, Dominic allegedly crushing

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Speaker 2: up powerful tranquilizers and anti anxiety medications and putting it

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Speaker 2: into Jizelle's food and wine. Medical experts who examined the

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Speaker 2: evidence said her level of sedation was closer to a

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Speaker 2: coma than it was to sleep. Dominic would then invite

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Speaker 2: men he met through those online forums to come to

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Speaker 2: their home and assault his unconscious wife. He would also

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Speaker 2: participate in and film many of the rapes himself. The

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Speaker 2: videos show him using degrading language to encourage the others.

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Speaker 2: Fifty of those men have been tracked down and are

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Speaker 2: on trial with the accused, but the other twenty one

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Speaker 2: are yet to be identified. From the footage, Giselle says

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Speaker 2: she recognized just one of them, a man who had

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Speaker 2: come to their home to discuss cycling with her husband.

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Speaker 2: She would regularly say hello to him at their local bakery.

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Speaker 2: Never did she think that he would come to her

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Speaker 2: home and allegedly rape her. No money ever changed hands.

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Speaker 2: The other participants claim they believed that they were engaging

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Speaker 2: inconsensual activities with a libertine couple. However, Dominic reportedly told

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Speaker 2: investigators that all the men were aware that his wife

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Speaker 2: had been drugged without her knowledge. None of them were

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Speaker 2: asked to wear a condong while allegedly raping Giselle. She

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Speaker 2: contracted four sexually transmitted infections. As a result, the victim survivor,

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Speaker 2: who is now divorcing Dominique, made the brave decision to

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Speaker 2: request a public trial. Her lawyer stated she wants to

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Speaker 2: raise awareness as widely as possible of what happened to her,

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Speaker 2: so that events like this never happen again. The case

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Speaker 2: has sparked national outrage in France and raised serious questions

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Speaker 2: about consent, predatory behavior, and how such extensive abuse could

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Speaker 2: have gone undetected for so long. Some lawmakers hope it

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Speaker 2: will lead to changes in how French law defines rape

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Speaker 2: and consent. The trial has also prompted discussions about cultural

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Speaker 2: attitudes in France regarding sexual crimes and consent. As one

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Speaker 2: French lawmaker told The New York Times, there's a kind

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Speaker 2: of naivete on the topic of predators in France, a

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Speaker 2: kind of denial. Giselle told the court that despite the

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Speaker 2: horror she felt after they showed her disturbing photos of

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Speaker 2: herself naked and being abused by men, she credits the

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Speaker 2: police with saving her life. Over ninety minutes of testimony,

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Speaker 2: she recalled the photos as scenes of horror, saying they

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Speaker 2: treated her like a rag doll. She explained that not

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Speaker 2: a single one of these men alerted police, saying even

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Speaker 2: one anonymous phone call could have saved her. When the

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Speaker 2: defense asked her about whether she and her husband actually

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Speaker 2: had an open relationship and how is it she could

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Speaker 2: have not noticed anything after a decade of this occurring,

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Speaker 2: she responded swiftly saying, don't talk to me about scenes.

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Speaker 2: These are rape scenes. She says she was never complicit

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Speaker 2: and isn't just pretending to be asleep. She turned to

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Speaker 2: the accused in court and said, for once in your lives,

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Speaker 2: at least take responsibility for your actions. Gizelle says she

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Speaker 2: will never forget the sound that her daughter made when

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Speaker 2: she told her she let out a how she said,

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Speaker 2: whose sound is still etched on my mind. Gizelle's daughter

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Speaker 2: Caroline described her father as probably one of the worst

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Speaker 2: sexual criminals of the past twenty years, telling the court

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Speaker 2: the day she found out about her mother's ordeal was

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Speaker 2: like a slow descent into hell. Having to call her

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Speaker 2: brothers and explain what had happened. She left the court

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Speaker 2: in tears on the second day of the trial as

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Speaker 2: the judge recounted how naked photo montages of Caroline had

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Speaker 2: also been found on her father's computer in a folder

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Speaker 2: called around my Daughter Naked. This case has captured the

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Speaker 2: world's attention for all the wrong reasons. It's shocking, it's terrifying,

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Speaker 2: and it makes us wonder what laws would protect us

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Speaker 2: here in Australia if we were to be drugged and assaulted.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Brianna Chesser is an Associate Professor of Criminology and

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Speaker 2: Justice at r MIT, a clinical forensic psychologist and criminal lawyer.

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Speaker 2: Brianna when we see stories like the one coming out

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Speaker 2: of France since this trial began last week, it makes

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Speaker 2: us wonder what laws are protecting us here in Australia,

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Speaker 2: What would that trial look like if it happened here,

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Speaker 2: Because what I'm seeing is that it depends on where

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Speaker 2: you live, because these kinds of laws are decided on

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Speaker 2: a state and territory level.

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Speaker 3: Well, in the last five or so years, we've really

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Speaker 3: had quite a number of changes to many of a

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Speaker 3: state and territory's sex offenses legislation. It was for the

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Speaker 3: inclusion of things like stealthing, rape by compelling and the

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Speaker 3: administration of an intoxicating substance for a sexual purpose. New

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Speaker 3: South Wales, Victoria, Queensland and South Australia in particular has

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Speaker 3: versions of those particular offenses, but there'd be an argument

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Speaker 3: that even in the other jurisdictions that don't specifically prohibit

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Speaker 3: the administration of an intoxicating substance, what they will have

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Speaker 3: is a common law background of really what the definition

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Speaker 3: of consent is even at common law, so cases that

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Speaker 3: sort have passed down that judges rely on when they're

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Speaker 3: making their judgments. Consent is a voluntary, freely willed action

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Speaker 3: that is taken by someone who is participating in a

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Speaker 3: sexual act. So in this case it would be the

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Speaker 3: wife would have to be voluntarily giving her consent to

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Speaker 3: whatever acts were going to be well in this case

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Speaker 3: that she was subjected to.

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Speaker 2: So to be clear too, because in this case, these

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Speaker 2: defendants are saying that, well, the husband gave us the consent,

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Speaker 2: even though he's come back and claimed that they knew

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Speaker 2: full well that she had been drugged without her permission.

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Speaker 2: But in any instance somebody else can't grant consent for you,

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Speaker 2: can they.

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Speaker 3: Correct, she would have to have given that consent willingly,

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Speaker 3: freely and of herself. Now, I don't quite know what

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Speaker 3: the laws in France are like in terms of the

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Speaker 3: sort of marriage, but certainly in Australia women are not

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Speaker 3: owned by their husbands women have the right to consent

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Speaker 3: to any act that they freely choose to do so

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Speaker 3: within the marriage or externally to the marriage, and neither

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Speaker 3: the husband nor the wife can make those decisions on

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Speaker 3: behalf of the other. So not really a defense at

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Speaker 3: all in my opinion.

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Speaker 2: Brianna, how much are we seeing technology becoming a part

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Speaker 2: of sexual assault here in Australia because this is something

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Speaker 2: that the French community have had to come to terms.

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Speaker 2: Where is just how much of this was documented and

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Speaker 2: shared and how these people were recruited through online forums?

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Speaker 2: How much is technology playing a role in sexual assault here?

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Speaker 3: Look, I think the rates are absolutely alarming and increasing

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Speaker 3: where what we're seeing is that technology is involved in

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Speaker 3: every stage of the planning, recruitment, execution of the sexual

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Speaker 3: act and then quite often in the continued torment of

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Speaker 3: the victim survivor with the production of pornographic material, as

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Speaker 3: was the case with the French trial we're currently watching.

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Speaker 2: Do we know what the process is here in Australia

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Speaker 2: Because what Giselle says, who's the victim survivor here is

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Speaker 2: that police made her look at photos and videos directly

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Speaker 2: after informing her that this had happened. To her, which

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Speaker 2: she found quite traumatizing. Is that normal procedure that a

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Speaker 2: victim would be forced to look at the evidence that

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Speaker 2: something had happened to them?

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Speaker 3: Look, I sort of cringe internally as you're saying this

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Speaker 3: to me. My answer will be in two parts. I think. First,

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Speaker 3: I'd like to say I would hope not the exposure

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Speaker 3: to those sort of crime in that sort of systematic

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Speaker 3: way is enough to create traumal in and of itself.

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Speaker 3: I think with the case of Giselle, the police would

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Speaker 3: have been quite concerned that she didn't have any knowledge

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Speaker 3: of being raped almost one hundred times now. From an

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Speaker 3: investigative perspective, I suspect that they were trying to ascertain

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Speaker 3: whether or not that was her in the video, and

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Speaker 3: then whether or not she had some sort of repressed

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Speaker 3: trauma that may well have been unleashed, if you like,

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Speaker 3: by watching the videos. Look, my clinical forensic psychologist's brain

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Speaker 3: here is absolutely horrified at the notion of a victim

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Speaker 3: survivor being re exposed to this trauma in such a

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Speaker 3: callous way. I don't think that this was in her

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Speaker 3: best interest. She really needed to come to terms with

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Speaker 3: the offending by itself and perhaps then if she wanted

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Speaker 3: to view the material, then that ought to have been

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Speaker 3: something at least in my opinion, that she should have

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Speaker 3: had control over.

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Speaker 2: Something that's really difficult for us to understand is how

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Speaker 2: the defense is positioning some of their questioning. And this

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Speaker 2: is something that's been brought up many many times where

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Speaker 2: it comes to sexual assault survivors in court, and in

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Speaker 2: this instance, they're asking her whether she was just pretending

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Speaker 2: to be asleep in these videos and what she complicit

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Speaker 2: in these sexual encounters as they're calling them sexual encounters

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Speaker 2: rather than a rape. This seems a barrant from our

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Speaker 2: perspective when we think of the seventy old men who

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Speaker 2: are involved in this, and the fact that it was

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Speaker 2: so clearly documented and that her husband has it freelyd

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Speaker 2: me that he did the wrong thing, and yet still

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Speaker 2: the defense has to ask those questions.

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Speaker 3: Look, I don't think they have to ask those questions.

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Speaker 3: I will say that in Australia I will have the

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Speaker 3: Uniform Evidence Act and that we have very clear guidelines

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Speaker 3: about how complainants as we would call them in a

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Speaker 3: legal sense in sex cases are to be questioned and

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Speaker 3: costs examined, and certainly I would argue that those types

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Speaker 3: of questions, at least in Australia, would no longer be permissible.

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Speaker 2: Brianna, If this sort of thing were to happen here,

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Speaker 2: do you think it would change the way that we

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Speaker 2: think about sexual assaults and sexual assault victim survivors the

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Speaker 2: same way that it seems to be kind of reframing

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Speaker 2: the conversation in France right now.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think inevitably it would lead to the community

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Speaker 3: thinking about whether the laws that we have currently are

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Speaker 3: adequate to offer protections. It would have us thinking more

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Speaker 3: about the I suppose definition of a victim, if you like,

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Speaker 3: in sexual assault cases. Here we have an example of

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Speaker 3: a woman who had no knowledge but for the police

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Speaker 3: bringing it to her. How do we then assist her

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Speaker 3: to recover, to treat her with respect while we're also

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Speaker 3: assisting the sort of prosecution of these offenders and the

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Speaker 3: very necessary legal trial would have to happen.

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Speaker 2: The trial of Dominic Pelicot, who's admitted to the abuse

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Speaker 2: and the recruitment of strangers to assault his wife, is

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Speaker 2: expected to last until December twenty If convicted, he and

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Speaker 2: the other defendants could face up to twenty years behind bars.

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Speaker 2: But this may not even be the end of legal

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Speaker 2: troubles for Dominic. He's also facing separate charges for a

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety one murder and rape, which he denies, as

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Speaker 2: well as an attempted rape in nineteen ninety nine that

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Speaker 2: he's admitted to after DNA evidence linked him to the crime.

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Speaker 2: We'll update you once a verdict is handed down. The

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Speaker 2: quickie is produced by me Claire Murphy and our senior

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Speaker 2: producer Taylorstrano, with audio production by Tom Lyin

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Speaker 3: Tint