WEBVTT - The Takedown Of Blake Lively 0:00:10.327 --> 0:00:13.047 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.727 --> 0:00:16.767 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.807 --> 0:00:23.767 that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to 0:00:23.807 --> 0:00:26.567 Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking 0:00:26.607 --> 0:00:30.887 about on Monday, the nineteenth of August. I'm Holly Wainwright. 0:00:30.647 --> 0:00:31.767 I'm Jesse Stevens. 0:00:31.967 --> 0:00:34.087 I'm mea Friedman. No, no, I'm still at the logis. 0:00:35.567 --> 0:00:36.967 What time did you have to get there? Yesterday? 0:00:37.687 --> 0:00:37.967 God? 0:00:38.007 --> 0:00:40.367 I got their hat. The red carpet started at three 0:00:40.367 --> 0:00:43.727 point thirty, so we got there at four. I left there. 0:00:44.007 --> 0:00:46.327 I was the first one in Anoba, Brunna and I 0:00:46.567 --> 0:00:50.847 and that was midnight, just after midnight, maybe quarter past twelve. 0:00:51.487 --> 0:00:54.167 I'm justay. So the outlouders are aware. Mia does not 0:00:54.407 --> 0:00:59.167 generally do long long events. That's an absolute marathon for 0:00:59.367 --> 0:01:02.967 event friend events at all. Anyway, on the show today, 0:01:03.087 --> 0:01:05.647 as already discussed, Mia is going to tell us about 0:01:05.647 --> 0:01:08.047 the logis. She's very, very tired, as she said, but 0:01:08.127 --> 0:01:10.127 she's a professional, God damn it, and she's going to 0:01:10.167 --> 0:01:15.567 push through. Also, why is absolutely everything suddenly Blake Lively's fault? 0:01:15.687 --> 0:01:19.727 The anatomy of a mighty backlash and why five people 0:01:19.767 --> 0:01:23.167 have been charged with the death of friend's icon Matthew Perry. 0:01:23.287 --> 0:01:27.207 But first, Jesse, in case you missed it, today, the 0:01:27.247 --> 0:01:31.367 three of us are looking very demure. We're being very mindful, 0:01:31.607 --> 0:01:34.567 very cutesye and if that doesn't make sense to you, 0:01:34.647 --> 0:01:38.647 welcome to the Internet. A TikTok trend has thrusted the 0:01:38.687 --> 0:01:42.647 word demure back into the lexicon, even though I'm fairly 0:01:42.687 --> 0:01:45.927 certain that most people don't actually know what it means. 0:01:46.487 --> 0:01:49.527 It all started with a TikTok creator named Jules Lebron 0:01:49.647 --> 0:01:53.367 posting a video with tips about managing you know, your 0:01:53.367 --> 0:01:56.207 makeup and your mustache sweat, how to deal with it. 0:01:56.447 --> 0:01:59.167 Here's what she said in the og video. 0:01:59.847 --> 0:02:03.007 Very demure, very mindful. I don't come to work with 0:02:03.047 --> 0:02:05.767 a green cut crew, don't look like a clown. When 0:02:05.807 --> 0:02:07.847 I go to work, I don't do too much. I'm 0:02:07.927 --> 0:02:11.607 very mindful while I'm out. See how I look very presentable. 0:02:11.727 --> 0:02:13.887 The way I came to the interview is the way 0:02:13.887 --> 0:02:16.327 I go to the job. A lot of you girls 0:02:16.327 --> 0:02:18.887 go to the interview looking like Marriage Simpson and go 0:02:18.967 --> 0:02:22.487 to the job looking like Patty and Selma, not demure. 0:02:22.807 --> 0:02:25.807 I'm very modest, I'm very mindful. You see my shirt 0:02:26.367 --> 0:02:29.807 only a little chi chio, not my be mindful of 0:02:29.887 --> 0:02:33.687 why they hired you. Here's your reality check, diva. What's 0:02:33.727 --> 0:02:35.287 the name you'd like me to make it out to? 0:02:35.567 --> 0:02:35.767 Oh? 0:02:35.807 --> 0:02:36.527 I love it. 0:02:36.527 --> 0:02:40.327 It's the context to this is that Jules Lebron is 0:02:40.527 --> 0:02:45.327 a trans woman, and so there's something very ironic and 0:02:45.647 --> 0:02:49.887 she is being sarcastic with a raised eyebrow speaking about 0:02:50.087 --> 0:02:54.567 femininity and gender in a way that's actually very cool 0:02:54.647 --> 0:02:56.127 and very transgressive. 0:02:56.527 --> 0:02:59.047 It's like a bit and she's really lent in. Since 0:02:59.087 --> 0:03:01.927 it's gone viral, she's lent in. And now if you 0:03:02.007 --> 0:03:05.967 go to her account, there's like twenty different reels of 0:03:06.007 --> 0:03:09.047 her at the airport. How to be mindful at the airport. 0:03:09.047 --> 0:03:11.007 It's like, I just have a soda at the airport, 0:03:11.167 --> 0:03:14.527 very mindful, very demure. I'm not like you other girls 0:03:14.527 --> 0:03:14.927 who do. 0:03:15.007 --> 0:03:19.527 Shut because demure means reserved and shy. 0:03:19.407 --> 0:03:20.487 And kind of feminist. 0:03:21.167 --> 0:03:24.727 Femin and the trend then, you know, took on a 0:03:24.767 --> 0:03:27.367 life of its own. And you see women going, see 0:03:27.367 --> 0:03:30.367 how I'm eating this donut, very demure, and they're just 0:03:30.407 --> 0:03:33.367 like eating a donut like a mad person, or like 0:03:33.767 --> 0:03:37.087 having a diet coke fountain in my house is very demure, 0:03:37.167 --> 0:03:41.207 which it's not. That's the opposite of So that's why 0:03:41.287 --> 0:03:43.167 it's funny. Have you guys heard this everywhere? 0:03:43.287 --> 0:03:43.567 Look? 0:03:43.687 --> 0:03:44.047 I have. 0:03:44.447 --> 0:03:47.167 And the thing about the internet now, and I know 0:03:47.207 --> 0:03:49.167 that some out louders are like, well are you talking 0:03:49.167 --> 0:03:51.447 about things that are on TikTok? The thing with TikTok 0:03:51.607 --> 0:03:55.607 is that it is dictating culture. And I like that 0:03:55.647 --> 0:03:58.087 there are just random, weird, funny things, but it can 0:03:58.127 --> 0:04:00.727 often feel like the culture has become a joke that 0:04:00.767 --> 0:04:03.767 you're never in on. It's an inside joke, and by 0:04:03.807 --> 0:04:06.927 the time someone explains the joke to you, it's not 0:04:07.007 --> 0:04:09.447 at all funny. And also it's over and there's another one, 0:04:10.567 --> 0:04:13.967 And so you can have that constant feeling like you're 0:04:14.047 --> 0:04:16.527 always just out of the loop, or that you've sort 0:04:16.527 --> 0:04:18.887 of come in halfway through a conversation. And even if 0:04:18.927 --> 0:04:21.287 you're fluent in TikTok and the Internet, which we all are, 0:04:22.407 --> 0:04:25.247 it can be really hard to get to the bottom 0:04:25.287 --> 0:04:28.487 of what it actually is. Like I remember we slipped 0:04:28.527 --> 0:04:31.287 back bun and whatever that thing was when we did 0:04:31.327 --> 0:04:34.807 the stupid dance. I had to google what it means 0:04:34.847 --> 0:04:36.567 and then you go down this rabbit hole and then 0:04:36.567 --> 0:04:39.647 you're like, I have a life. I have a mortgage 0:04:39.647 --> 0:04:46.487 of responsibilities. I can't be playing CSI TikTok every three days. 0:04:46.767 --> 0:04:51.727 Also, the speed is remarkable, right because I'm probably quite 0:04:51.927 --> 0:04:54.127 basic when it comes to this stuff, and I open 0:04:54.247 --> 0:04:58.247 probably my Instagram on Saturday, and suddenly everybody's demule, like 0:04:58.287 --> 0:05:01.967 suddenly just everything, and then the Logi's red carpet last night, 0:05:02.167 --> 0:05:04.327 and Tony Armstrong and his girlfriend are making a joke 0:05:04.367 --> 0:05:07.087 about being demure, like it's just super super quick, and 0:05:07.127 --> 0:05:09.487 then it will be gone again in a day, as 0:05:09.527 --> 0:05:12.247 you say me. So by the time my children get 0:05:12.247 --> 0:05:14.807 home tonight and I asked them about being demure, they 0:05:14.847 --> 0:05:17.127 will think I'm the most embarrassing thing that ever lived. 0:05:17.247 --> 0:05:21.287 And what's hard to is that it's really difficult to 0:05:21.367 --> 0:05:23.127 determine where any of these things start. 0:05:23.247 --> 0:05:24.687 I always want to go back to the start. 0:05:24.767 --> 0:05:26.847 I think it was like Friday night and I was 0:05:26.887 --> 0:05:29.807 in the depths of TikTok, being like, where did demure start? 0:05:30.327 --> 0:05:33.167 Was it a Kardashian thing? It used to be that. 0:05:33.207 --> 0:05:35.727 It was some massive cultural icon who would start a 0:05:35.767 --> 0:05:37.687 trend like jewels. 0:05:37.567 --> 0:05:39.647 Well, like raygun you could see, like the internet was 0:05:39.687 --> 0:05:42.647 doing all these memes and takes on ygun, but you 0:05:42.647 --> 0:05:45.127 could see that was an actual thing that happened, that 0:05:45.367 --> 0:05:48.567 had global significance and everyone could go and see it, 0:05:49.167 --> 0:05:51.127 and it was all just versions of that. But sometimes 0:05:51.127 --> 0:05:54.007 it's like the vernacular where you just don't understand it 0:05:54.047 --> 0:05:57.527 and you always feel like you're just a little bit behind. 0:05:57.847 --> 0:06:01.767 Yeah, look, headline is the three of us not very general, 0:06:01.967 --> 0:06:05.207 not very. 0:06:04.407 --> 0:06:09.127 And the Gold Logi goes to Larry MD. 0:06:10.487 --> 0:06:14.287 Last night was the sixty fourth TV week Logi Awards, 0:06:14.407 --> 0:06:17.207 and Mia Friedman, who was sitting in the front row, 0:06:17.367 --> 0:06:22.407 somehow cried three times and clapped too loudly once. If 0:06:22.447 --> 0:06:25.327 you squinted, you could see her dancing to the John 0:06:25.367 --> 0:06:29.287 Farnham tribute and maybe also darting to the bathroom every 0:06:29.327 --> 0:06:33.127 fifteen minutes, not to do illicit substances, but because her 0:06:33.127 --> 0:06:36.847 bladder can't hold much these days. There's so much to 0:06:36.967 --> 0:06:39.247 unpack and we haven't spoken properly about it yet, so 0:06:39.287 --> 0:06:42.167 we thought we'd do our catch up on the show. Mia, 0:06:42.407 --> 0:06:45.967 Can we please start with what you wore? Was it demure? 0:06:46.047 --> 0:06:49.247 Because everyone saw demure that you threw out and then 0:06:49.287 --> 0:06:51.367 everyone was just sitting there on Instagram being like, oh, 0:06:51.407 --> 0:06:53.967 Maya will post what she's wearing. And then we waited, 0:06:53.967 --> 0:06:56.687 and we waited and we waited, and then Larry Emda 0:06:56.847 --> 0:06:59.047 won a go logan. Wait did she even show up 0:06:59.487 --> 0:07:00.047 the next day? 0:07:00.207 --> 0:07:00.487 Yes? 0:07:00.607 --> 0:07:03.687 Where's your dress? What was it? What do it look like? Please? 0:07:03.927 --> 0:07:06.447 I have a thing where I don't get excited about 0:07:06.447 --> 0:07:08.807 event dressing. I love clothes as our ladders. No, I 0:07:08.847 --> 0:07:13.167 love clothes more than anything, and yet anything red carpet 0:07:13.207 --> 0:07:15.047 it just doesn't feel interesting to me because there's no 0:07:15.127 --> 0:07:18.167 styling involved. It's just like one dress and a shoe, 0:07:18.487 --> 0:07:22.447 which to me is not very creative. So I think 0:07:22.487 --> 0:07:25.687 that's at my heart of complete apathy about. 0:07:25.367 --> 0:07:26.247 These were you not? 0:07:26.887 --> 0:07:29.407 Holly and I were in the depths of panic on 0:07:29.447 --> 0:07:32.167 Sunday morning when we woke up and we saw that 0:07:32.327 --> 0:07:35.327 people were getting their hair and makeup done. They were 0:07:35.367 --> 0:07:38.447 walking down the street in their ballgowns. Sarah Harris looked stunning. 0:07:38.527 --> 0:07:41.647 We saw Laura Byrne and Britt Hockley, they were just 0:07:41.767 --> 0:07:43.727 in these dun downs and we were going, me out 0:07:43.807 --> 0:07:46.967 is woefully unprepared hair, yet. 0:07:46.847 --> 0:07:49.407 It's trying down to get really worried about her when 0:07:49.447 --> 0:07:51.807 it was mid morning on Sunday and I messaged and 0:07:51.847 --> 0:07:54.127 I was like, baby spiraling, spiralingly. 0:07:54.127 --> 0:07:57.047 You could feel it. I wasn't spiraling. 0:07:57.487 --> 0:07:59.927 Two hours away, I could sense it. I'm like, why 0:08:00.007 --> 0:08:01.727 isn't she dressed? What's going on? 0:08:02.967 --> 0:08:06.247 I wasn't spiraling. I just was like not being able 0:08:06.287 --> 0:08:09.887 to summon myself to care, because I mean to say 0:08:09.927 --> 0:08:12.407 that I was a side character last night is a 0:08:12.447 --> 0:08:15.567 gross understatement. I was there because Strife, of which I'm 0:08:15.607 --> 0:08:19.167 an executive producer, was nominated for Best Comedy. I was 0:08:19.247 --> 0:08:23.527 legitimately invited, but I get very intimidated by those things. 0:08:23.527 --> 0:08:26.847 And I until about two hours, three hours before, I 0:08:26.927 --> 0:08:29.487 was still considering not going because I've also been sick, 0:08:29.527 --> 0:08:32.087 and I was just like I could ostensibly get away 0:08:32.087 --> 0:08:33.367 with chucking Asiki. 0:08:33.567 --> 0:08:35.927 I think where you were at on Sunday. I've had 0:08:36.007 --> 0:08:38.447 nightmares about being in that situation. And it's like my 0:08:38.527 --> 0:08:40.967 school formal and all the other girls were getting their 0:08:40.967 --> 0:08:43.047 hair and makeup done, and they had bought really fancy 0:08:43.127 --> 0:08:45.247 dresses and I'd gone with mum, and my dress was 0:08:45.287 --> 0:08:46.407 secondhand and didn't fit. 0:08:47.287 --> 0:08:49.207 That's what I was worried about. 0:08:49.247 --> 0:08:50.807 Well, you're not worried that everyone else was getting their 0:08:50.807 --> 0:08:52.927 hair and makeup professionally done and you had you and 0:08:52.967 --> 0:08:53.647 your ghday. 0:08:53.767 --> 0:08:57.167 Yes no, and then yes no. I was all confident. 0:08:57.247 --> 0:09:00.287 You're confident in your offering, right Maas I. 0:09:00.327 --> 0:09:03.447 Know I would say I'm lazy and I couldn't be bothered. 0:09:03.567 --> 0:09:06.087 So I was offered by Binge a slot at eight 0:09:06.207 --> 0:09:08.807 thirty in the morning, and I was just like, lull, 0:09:09.327 --> 0:09:11.327 it's already going to be a marathon. Can you imagine 0:09:11.367 --> 0:09:13.487 going and getting your hair and makeupsne? I just don't 0:09:13.487 --> 0:09:16.967 care enough. And I also quite like the getting ready part. 0:09:17.047 --> 0:09:19.527 That's actually more of my favorite thing is putting on 0:09:19.527 --> 0:09:22.047 the makeup. I'm not very good at putting on a 0:09:22.047 --> 0:09:24.007 lot of makeup, but I always just like to look 0:09:24.087 --> 0:09:25.567 like myself, and I feel like when you get your 0:09:25.607 --> 0:09:27.407 hair and makeup done, you've got to make a lot 0:09:27.407 --> 0:09:29.807 of small talk. And also I just don't ever quite 0:09:29.807 --> 0:09:34.527 feel like myself anyway. Bloody, first world, lovely problems. So 0:09:34.607 --> 0:09:37.247 I also knew that I had a number of things 0:09:37.287 --> 0:09:39.967 in my wardrobe because I wear kind of things that 0:09:40.007 --> 0:09:42.327 most people might wear to on a red carpet, like 0:09:42.407 --> 0:09:45.287 just to work on a Tuesday, right, So it's not 0:09:45.367 --> 0:09:47.367 like I was like, oh, I don't have anything fancy. 0:09:47.367 --> 0:09:51.127 I've got so much fancy stuff, and so I knew 0:09:51.207 --> 0:09:53.727 that what I wanted to wear was probably in there, 0:09:53.807 --> 0:09:56.847 and if it wasn't, that was kind of exciting because 0:09:56.887 --> 0:09:59.847 I'd have to make it work. You're looking horrified. 0:10:00.207 --> 0:10:02.287 I am, Okay, tell us what you chose, because I saw, 0:10:02.327 --> 0:10:04.407 I actually liked of all your options that you shared 0:10:04.447 --> 0:10:06.447 on Instagram, you had a few suit options, you had 0:10:06.447 --> 0:10:08.767 your bratsuit, and I went, that's kind of cool, because 0:10:09.567 --> 0:10:11.127 but then what did you choose? 0:10:11.167 --> 0:10:11.967 Please tell us? 0:10:12.007 --> 0:10:14.247 Okay, was it something you know quite well? Because I 0:10:14.287 --> 0:10:15.407 wore it to your wedding, so. 0:10:15.447 --> 0:10:17.527 I knew you'd wear the dress. Yeah. 0:10:17.567 --> 0:10:19.647 So there's a good story behind this because I bought 0:10:20.167 --> 0:10:24.527 this skirt from a lady startup called Jumbled, which is 0:10:24.727 --> 0:10:27.487 a brilliant boutique in Orange, and we were there for 0:10:27.527 --> 0:10:29.727 a show quite a few years ago, maybe three years ago. 0:10:29.927 --> 0:10:32.847 Time is slippery to me. But and then I really 0:10:32.927 --> 0:10:35.247 liked it. It was kind of sequined, but muted sequined, 0:10:35.247 --> 0:10:37.687 if that makes sense. And so then I went online 0:10:37.687 --> 0:10:40.407 and found a matching top, but the top was like 0:10:40.927 --> 0:10:44.087 a bit cropped, so I wasn't gonna wear a crop top. 0:10:44.207 --> 0:10:46.887 And this was years ago. And so then for your wedding, Jesse, 0:10:47.007 --> 0:10:48.527 when I went through a similar thing and tried on 0:10:48.567 --> 0:10:51.527 eight billion dresses, I took the top and the skirt 0:10:51.567 --> 0:10:54.887 to my alterationist. Is anyone still listening? This is so boring. 0:10:55.487 --> 0:10:57.647 I took it to my alterationist and got her to 0:10:57.687 --> 0:11:01.087 turn it into just one dress, and so I had that, 0:11:01.367 --> 0:11:03.647 and I tried on a bunch of stuff, and in 0:11:03.687 --> 0:11:06.087 the end that worked for the same reason that it 0:11:06.167 --> 0:11:08.887 worked for your wedding, because it was me in that 0:11:08.967 --> 0:11:12.847 it was. It was fancier than I'd usually wear because 0:11:12.887 --> 0:11:15.367 it was like a dress, and yet it was like 0:11:15.607 --> 0:11:18.567 muted sequence. It didn't feel attention grabby. 0:11:18.767 --> 0:11:21.527 The thing that's interesting about this whole thing, and we 0:11:21.607 --> 0:11:23.407 have to find out if there was anything fun about 0:11:23.407 --> 0:11:26.247 the logis is that this kind of stuff is your 0:11:26.247 --> 0:11:28.887 worst nightmare. You have anxiety around going to these kind 0:11:28.887 --> 0:11:31.007 of big social things, don't you. I want to give 0:11:31.047 --> 0:11:33.447 some context that when I used to work at TV Week, 0:11:33.527 --> 0:11:36.567 who obviously organize the logis it's a big thing. Some 0:11:36.687 --> 0:11:40.487 people are so desperate to go to that event. I 0:11:40.567 --> 0:11:43.727 remember the year I was working at TV week one 0:11:44.207 --> 0:11:47.367 down the list. Celebrity was so desperate for a ticket 0:11:47.447 --> 0:11:49.727 and the editor was like, no, you can't have a ticket. 0:11:49.767 --> 0:11:52.367 Were full that She said, if I shaved my head, 0:11:52.527 --> 0:11:53.167 can I come? 0:11:53.287 --> 0:11:53.767 Oh wow? 0:11:53.807 --> 0:11:56.727 And the editor said yes and she did. That is 0:11:56.767 --> 0:11:59.007 how desperate some people are to be on that red 0:11:59.007 --> 0:12:03.247 carpet because it's about and probably less so now, but 0:12:03.287 --> 0:12:05.527 it's the attention economy, right, And if you're trying to 0:12:05.527 --> 0:12:08.047 get somewhere, if you're trying to be noticed, if you're 0:12:08.087 --> 0:12:10.247 trying to meet the right people, it's a really big deal. 0:12:10.527 --> 0:12:12.927 But all of that kind of stuff, that networking kind 0:12:12.967 --> 0:12:15.327 of stuff is your worst nightmare, right manea. But had 0:12:15.327 --> 0:12:19.167 a thing fun about being there, do you know what? 0:12:19.247 --> 0:12:21.727 I had a really fun time, apart from the fact 0:12:21.767 --> 0:12:23.727 that it was so long. It was like being on 0:12:23.767 --> 0:12:24.887 a long haul flight. 0:12:25.327 --> 0:12:27.127 Why but then you got off. 0:12:26.927 --> 0:12:30.207 And you were still in the same place. I don't know. 0:12:30.287 --> 0:12:32.047 But by the time we sat down. So some people, 0:12:32.087 --> 0:12:34.527 who do they talk to kateline Brook she just had 0:12:34.567 --> 0:12:37.327 to do three hours on the red carpet. It was 0:12:37.367 --> 0:12:39.287 funny because we walked up and down the red carpet. 0:12:39.287 --> 0:12:40.727 Brunner and I It looked like we were trying to 0:12:40.727 --> 0:12:42.367 get interviewed, but we were just looking for the mum 0:12:42.367 --> 0:12:44.687 and mea people who were interviewing people in the red 0:12:44.727 --> 0:12:45.967 carp We thought, we've got to talk to them. We 0:12:45.967 --> 0:12:48.247 couldn't find them, so it looked like we were doing 0:12:48.247 --> 0:12:51.367 desperate laps. We eventually found them how to chat with them, 0:12:51.407 --> 0:12:53.487 how to chat to news dot com who made us 0:12:53.527 --> 0:12:57.087 read at Tongue Twister. You know, everyone needs their content right, 0:12:57.927 --> 0:13:00.407 And it was just quite surreal, like it was very intense. 0:13:00.447 --> 0:13:02.167 And then you go inside and it's just like a 0:13:02.167 --> 0:13:04.007 ballroom if you've ever been to any kind of black 0:13:04.047 --> 0:13:06.687 tie thing, and you sit down, but then it was 0:13:06.767 --> 0:13:10.207 two hours until the ceremony started. It fed us, which 0:13:10.207 --> 0:13:11.327 is good because we sat down up. 0:13:11.247 --> 0:13:12.767 For nice food. 0:13:13.647 --> 0:13:17.447 Bruna pap Andrea, who is the main producer of Strife 0:13:17.727 --> 0:13:20.687 and the producer of everything Big Little Eyes and you know, 0:13:20.807 --> 0:13:23.287 she's big time. She's one Golden Globes and Emmy's and 0:13:23.287 --> 0:13:24.847 all of those things. She's been to all of those 0:13:24.887 --> 0:13:27.367 awards ceremonies. She said it was the best food of 0:13:27.407 --> 0:13:29.007 any awards ceremony she's ever been to. 0:13:29.247 --> 0:13:30.327 Was she just being polite? 0:13:30.727 --> 0:13:33.727 No, she was so into it. It was really funny. 0:13:33.807 --> 0:13:36.807 So the other shock was that we were not just 0:13:36.887 --> 0:13:38.967 in the front row of tables, but in the front 0:13:39.047 --> 0:13:41.367 row in the middle of the table, so we were 0:13:41.407 --> 0:13:45.247 practically directly in front of where the people were on. 0:13:45.287 --> 0:13:47.007 That because Asha Keddy was on your table. 0:13:47.087 --> 0:13:49.447 Correct, it wasn't because of my dress. So we were 0:13:49.567 --> 0:13:51.207 on the table with Asher and so she was a 0:13:51.247 --> 0:13:53.767 Gold LOGI nominee, so she's a big deal. And that 0:13:53.927 --> 0:13:55.727 was really interesting too because I've been to the Logis 0:13:55.767 --> 0:13:57.647 one time before, but I was like in the absolute 0:13:57.727 --> 0:13:59.887 bleaches and I was, you know, not really part of 0:13:59.927 --> 0:14:01.607 it at all. It was when I was doing a 0:14:01.647 --> 0:14:03.447 bit of work for the Today Show, so I just 0:14:03.527 --> 0:14:05.327 felt like I was on someone else's ride, which I 0:14:05.367 --> 0:14:08.047 absolutely was. We had a really funny table. It was 0:14:08.047 --> 0:14:13.567 like me Bruna Ash's husband, Alex Demitriardi's Emma Lung Matt Day, 0:14:14.207 --> 0:14:16.847 whose wife is the EP of sixty Minutes and she 0:14:17.047 --> 0:14:18.847 actually won a LOGI I saw that. 0:14:19.047 --> 0:14:21.367 Yeah, So it was just it was a lovely and 0:14:21.767 --> 0:14:24.087 what outfits did you like as someone who was there? 0:14:24.167 --> 0:14:25.447 Like what stood out to you all? 0:14:25.607 --> 0:14:25.727 Right? 0:14:26.247 --> 0:14:29.047 Like there were so many great looks. There was one 0:14:29.047 --> 0:14:31.167 person who was a publicist for Channel nine who I 0:14:31.247 --> 0:14:33.767 just loved her dress. It was like I went and 0:14:33.807 --> 0:14:36.247 tried to buy it. It was from the curve range 0:14:36.647 --> 0:14:38.927 that aesos do and it was just like head to 0:14:38.927 --> 0:14:41.607 toe bright blue sequence and just like she just looked 0:14:41.647 --> 0:14:45.767 so comfortable, and she was wearing like matching glittery blue trainers. 0:14:46.287 --> 0:14:49.887 But you know, like Sonya Krueger always looks incredible. I mean, 0:14:50.167 --> 0:14:54.087 everyone just tried hard, which was so lovely. Julia Morris 0:14:54.087 --> 0:14:57.247 looked beautiful, she was in this huge gown. Kate Langbrook 0:14:57.287 --> 0:15:01.087 looked phenomenal. Lisa McCune's gown was beautiful. I only saw 0:15:01.087 --> 0:15:03.487 her at the end when she was giving the Gold Low. 0:15:03.927 --> 0:15:05.767 And there were lots of people that you just don't know, 0:15:06.287 --> 0:15:08.447 you know, because a lot of shows were nominated, and 0:15:08.527 --> 0:15:10.607 there was the crew and the cast from all of 0:15:10.647 --> 0:15:12.727 those shows, so a lot of behind the scenes people 0:15:12.727 --> 0:15:16.567 were there looking just stunning, like people went to so 0:15:16.727 --> 0:15:19.247 much effort and that was just interesting to look at. 0:15:19.567 --> 0:15:22.287 And then the other highlight was the John Farnham tribute 0:15:22.327 --> 0:15:25.727 with Guys Sebastian and Jessica Mawboy that was so beautiful. 0:15:27.527 --> 0:15:39.527 Were on and I cried lots. 0:15:39.567 --> 0:15:41.287 I didn't expect to cry, but there were lots of 0:15:41.287 --> 0:15:44.967 speeches that men made and boys made about mothers and 0:15:45.007 --> 0:15:47.607 about their mothers. And that fifteen year old guy that 0:15:47.647 --> 0:15:50.767 won the two big awards, the way he spoke about 0:15:50.807 --> 0:15:52.207 his parents and how he cried. 0:15:52.367 --> 0:15:55.327 I'd love to thank my friend's family, my brother and 0:15:55.367 --> 0:16:11.127 my sister, and my mom and dad, and I love 0:16:11.207 --> 0:16:13.207 to thank my drum turg Ninia Townsend. 0:16:13.807 --> 0:16:14.807 Couldn't die it without you. 0:16:19.167 --> 0:16:22.207 I always find it when people are emotional, it's hard 0:16:22.247 --> 0:16:24.087 not to be emotional back. Like it's easy to sit 0:16:24.127 --> 0:16:26.487 at home and be really cynical about the logis and 0:16:26.527 --> 0:16:29.127 I've done that every single year, but when you're actually 0:16:29.127 --> 0:16:33.367 in the room, it's very moving. Like the amount that 0:16:33.407 --> 0:16:36.927 people care to be nominated or to win, like Rebecca 0:16:36.967 --> 0:16:40.967 Gibney was stunning, like Amda was really moving. What Trent 0:16:41.047 --> 0:16:42.967 Dalton said about the mums watching at. 0:16:42.807 --> 0:16:45.767 Home, I just want to send a shout out to 0:16:45.967 --> 0:16:48.847 all the mums who are a bit like Frankie Bell 0:16:49.287 --> 0:16:53.607 and they're out in the suburbs tonight and they're feeling 0:16:53.607 --> 0:16:57.167 a bit lost in the darkness, and I just want 0:16:57.207 --> 0:17:00.647 to tell you, like, please believe me when I say 0:17:01.367 --> 0:17:04.447 that when your children look at you in the darkness, 0:17:05.487 --> 0:17:07.207 all they see is your light. 0:17:07.767 --> 0:17:09.927 There was a lot of stuff that was just beautiful. 0:17:10.247 --> 0:17:12.647 I cried all those things on the couch, so I'm 0:17:12.647 --> 0:17:14.527 not at all surprised that you were a puddle. I 0:17:14.567 --> 0:17:17.327 were like, they were really lovely. I wanted to ask you, though. 0:17:17.327 --> 0:17:19.927 One thing I always wonder about the room is so 0:17:20.007 --> 0:17:23.167 Sam Pang was the host, and he is quite roasty, 0:17:23.327 --> 0:17:25.007 and this is the second year he's done it, which 0:17:25.047 --> 0:17:26.767 means he must be good at it, right, because it's 0:17:27.207 --> 0:17:29.767 hosting any awards show is the job that nobody wants, 0:17:29.767 --> 0:17:32.367 apparently because you get so slammed for it. But he 0:17:32.407 --> 0:17:35.007 gets up and he does the roasts in the room. 0:17:35.287 --> 0:17:36.167 Does that go down? 0:17:36.207 --> 0:17:36.487 Okay? 0:17:36.527 --> 0:17:38.607 Because I've read commentary before that says one of the 0:17:38.647 --> 0:17:41.887 reasons why awards show hosting is so hard is you've 0:17:41.927 --> 0:17:44.127 got to offend all the people who are right there 0:17:44.167 --> 0:17:46.167 to appease the people at home who want to feel 0:17:46.167 --> 0:17:47.207 good about not being there. 0:17:47.247 --> 0:17:50.447 That's so true. And he nailed it, and the room 0:17:50.567 --> 0:17:52.887 laughed and they were with him, I think because his 0:17:53.087 --> 0:17:56.927 jokes felt pointed, but they didn't feel mean, and so 0:17:57.047 --> 0:18:00.687 the people that he was most funny about, like Andy 0:18:00.767 --> 0:18:03.487 Lee making jokes about Habish and doctor Chris Brown making 0:18:03.567 --> 0:18:05.847 jokes about Robert Owen getting his job and then being 0:18:05.887 --> 0:18:08.327 nominated for Gold. A lot of them were his friends 0:18:08.887 --> 0:18:11.207 and so they're fun. They're you know, comedians, a lot 0:18:11.207 --> 0:18:14.127 of them. So I remember Asha said, oh, I feel 0:18:14.167 --> 0:18:16.007 like Sam was too easy on me. That can't be 0:18:16.047 --> 0:18:17.887 the end of it. You know, she didn't. He didn't 0:18:17.927 --> 0:18:20.887 take me out, So I think it didn't ever feel 0:18:21.167 --> 0:18:22.927 like he was punching down. It felt more like he 0:18:22.967 --> 0:18:25.287 was punching up. He punched up at the networks a lot, 0:18:25.487 --> 0:18:28.807 which everybody really laughed at the room was very much 0:18:28.807 --> 0:18:29.327 with Sam. 0:18:29.487 --> 0:18:31.967 We should probably ask as well, you were nominated, strife 0:18:31.967 --> 0:18:33.047 was nominated. 0:18:32.607 --> 0:18:33.767 We did not win. 0:18:34.087 --> 0:18:35.127 Okay, you didn't win. 0:18:35.487 --> 0:18:38.927 How do you feel about that? Because we are closet competitive? 0:18:39.087 --> 0:18:40.647 But how did it feel to lose? 0:18:40.687 --> 0:18:43.367 A LOGI it never feels good to lose anything. Like 0:18:43.407 --> 0:18:46.367 everybody says they don't care until they win, and then 0:18:46.367 --> 0:18:48.567 they care a lot. Yeah, Like that was what was 0:18:48.567 --> 0:18:50.407 so lovely about when debraah Mammon got up and she 0:18:50.487 --> 0:18:53.647 won Best Lead Actress in a Drama for Total Control 0:18:53.767 --> 0:18:55.927 and that wasn't expected that she would win that, and 0:18:55.967 --> 0:18:58.767 she got up and she just said, I really wanted this, 0:18:59.047 --> 0:19:02.607 And everyone in the room really like laughed in a 0:19:02.647 --> 0:19:06.207 sense of we get it because she said, what you 0:19:06.287 --> 0:19:08.087 meant to be so cool and be like, oh, I 0:19:08.247 --> 0:19:10.967 was fine, it's whatever. But everybody in the room really 0:19:10.967 --> 0:19:11.447 wants to win. 0:19:11.527 --> 0:19:12.647 Like everybody wants to win. 0:19:12.687 --> 0:19:13.527 Who doesn't want to win? 0:19:13.807 --> 0:19:17.167 I am incredibly competitive. But when I saw that we 0:19:17.167 --> 0:19:20.007 were beaten by Utopia, I could sleep. I could sleep 0:19:20.007 --> 0:19:22.367 at night. Yes, I do love Utopia. I think it's 0:19:22.367 --> 0:19:25.847 a great show. We're going to be beaten Utopia, I accept. 0:19:26.007 --> 0:19:28.327 And that was their last season, so and we were 0:19:28.367 --> 0:19:30.567 also saying, look, it was our first season of strife 0:19:30.727 --> 0:19:32.567 in the starting to in the middle of making our 0:19:32.607 --> 0:19:36.087 second season. Maybe by the time we've got third or 0:19:36.087 --> 0:19:38.887 fourth or fifth or sixth seasons, sometimes it takes a 0:19:38.927 --> 0:19:40.407 while to gain that momentum. 0:19:40.447 --> 0:19:42.287 Yeah, that's the first time it's occurred to me that 0:19:42.327 --> 0:19:44.327 you're going to have to go to the logis every year. 0:19:46.287 --> 0:19:48.567 That hasn't occurred to me that as long as we're nominated. 0:19:49.087 --> 0:19:52.167 Okay, out louders, if you've got more questions for Mia 0:19:52.207 --> 0:19:55.087 about her big night at the Logis or anything Logis related. 0:19:55.527 --> 0:19:57.607 Jump in the Outlauders Facebook group and ask them now, 0:19:57.647 --> 0:20:00.647 because we're going to be recording a special subscribers episode 0:20:00.727 --> 0:20:03.407 all about the Logis for those who still haven't got 0:20:03.487 --> 0:20:06.367 enough of me A's debilitating wardrobe. 0:20:06.407 --> 0:20:09.167 My time going to be this Guss. If you want goss, 0:20:09.327 --> 0:20:10.007 That's what I'm. 0:20:09.927 --> 0:20:11.207 Going to be asking about. I need to know who 0:20:11.247 --> 0:20:13.567 you talk to, I need to know precisely what you ate. 0:20:13.687 --> 0:20:14.847 And the other thing is the. 0:20:14.807 --> 0:20:18.887 Poet doing drugs in the toilet. 0:20:19.047 --> 0:20:20.687 Yeah, you're going to be telling us about that in 0:20:20.727 --> 0:20:28.007 tomorrow subscriber episode. 0:20:28.647 --> 0:20:30.287 In the same way that the Internet has a new 0:20:30.367 --> 0:20:32.807 joke every week, as we discussed at the top of 0:20:32.847 --> 0:20:35.567 the show, it can also feel like every week the 0:20:35.647 --> 0:20:40.047 Internet chooses someone, almost always a woman to pylon, and 0:20:40.087 --> 0:20:43.607 the force of that can totally dominate the culture, well, 0:20:43.687 --> 0:20:46.367 certainly the media and social media. A few weeks ago 0:20:46.407 --> 0:20:48.607 it was j Loo, and last week it was Raygun, 0:20:48.687 --> 0:20:51.407 and this week it's Blake Lively, who has a new 0:20:51.447 --> 0:20:53.807 movie out called It Ends with Us that we spoke 0:20:53.847 --> 0:20:57.127 about on last week's show. And in the same way 0:20:57.127 --> 0:21:00.567 that the demure jokes and means can be really hard 0:21:00.567 --> 0:21:03.167 to understand. It can also be hard to understand the 0:21:03.247 --> 0:21:07.287 source of the intense hatred and criticism that engulfs these 0:21:07.327 --> 0:21:09.727 people at the center of these storms. You can find 0:21:09.727 --> 0:21:13.527 yourself wondering, but what actually did she do? Because there 0:21:13.567 --> 0:21:17.207 is so much noise that the storm itself becomes the story. 0:21:17.327 --> 0:21:20.487 And so it is with Blake Lively. This week you 0:21:20.567 --> 0:21:23.527 may have seen her being roasted everywhere, but particularly on 0:21:23.647 --> 0:21:25.927 social media, where she is the villain of the week 0:21:26.487 --> 0:21:29.767 in a huge way. Now, it's important to note that 0:21:29.807 --> 0:21:32.487 we don't like to participate in these pylons or in 0:21:32.567 --> 0:21:35.807 cancel culture, but what we do do on this show 0:21:35.927 --> 0:21:38.487 is to try and get some perspective about what's really 0:21:38.527 --> 0:21:40.807 going on so that we can understand the biggest issue, 0:21:41.207 --> 0:21:45.207 why are people so mad with Blake Lively. So the 0:21:45.247 --> 0:21:48.647 criticism initially came with some drama between Lively and the 0:21:48.647 --> 0:21:52.607 director and co star Justin Baldoni of this movie, but 0:21:52.687 --> 0:21:55.207 since we last discussed it, the tide has seemed to 0:21:55.247 --> 0:21:59.767 turn from criticism for the film's marketing and potentially of 0:21:59.887 --> 0:22:04.647 Justin Baldoni, to a direct attack on Blake. The film 0:22:04.647 --> 0:22:07.727 has so far brought in one hundred million dollars US 0:22:08.007 --> 0:22:10.847 around the world, so people are going to see it, 0:22:11.487 --> 0:22:15.527 and Justin Baldoni has reportedly hired a crisis pr manager. 0:22:16.087 --> 0:22:19.967 Now this bit is important, Melissa Nathan, who specializes in 0:22:20.007 --> 0:22:25.407 publicity and reputation management. She previously represented Johnny Depp during 0:22:25.487 --> 0:22:29.487 the Amber Herd trial, and the shift in the perception 0:22:29.567 --> 0:22:33.887 of Blake Lively has really turned the algorithm on TikTok 0:22:34.047 --> 0:22:39.007 and another social media against her. The criticism is directed 0:22:39.047 --> 0:22:41.527 at the way she's chosen to market the film, people 0:22:41.567 --> 0:22:44.487 saying she's been too glib and chatty, and her outfits 0:22:44.487 --> 0:22:46.407 have been too cheery given that the theme of the 0:22:46.407 --> 0:22:50.927 film is about domestic violence. And then over the weekend, mysteriously, 0:22:51.407 --> 0:22:57.407 seemingly randomly, an interview from twenty sixteen resurfaced by a 0:22:57.767 --> 0:23:01.327 journalist who said it was the interview that made her 0:23:01.487 --> 0:23:04.327 want to quit her job. Here's a little bit of 0:23:04.407 --> 0:23:05.127 that interview. 0:23:05.407 --> 0:23:08.807 First of all, congrats on your little bomb. Congrats on 0:23:08.847 --> 0:23:11.567 your little What about my bum. 0:23:14.047 --> 0:23:18.087 We've got two nice ones and they are kind of bumps. 0:23:18.367 --> 0:23:21.967 They no not bumps. The Lovely Lady lumps. 0:23:22.047 --> 0:23:25.087 To context for that interview is that Blake Lively had 0:23:25.127 --> 0:23:29.007 publicly announced her pregnancy beforehand, and when she sat down, 0:23:29.047 --> 0:23:32.647 the interviewer said congratulations, and then she said congratulations on 0:23:32.687 --> 0:23:37.167 your bump. To clarify the interviewer was not pregnant. It 0:23:37.287 --> 0:23:40.847 was a strange way to react. And then the interviewer 0:23:40.887 --> 0:23:45.167 asked a question about costuming and what they wore, and 0:23:45.207 --> 0:23:47.687 Blake sort of said, oh, would you ask a man 0:23:47.767 --> 0:23:50.167 what he wore. There was something quite off in the 0:23:50.247 --> 0:23:53.847 dynamics of the interview, and even I thought Posey Parker, 0:23:53.887 --> 0:23:57.967 who was beside her, was doing her best to try 0:23:58.007 --> 0:24:02.927 and keep all parties happy. That interview is uncomfortable. 0:24:03.047 --> 0:24:06.807 Yeah, it's cringe to watch, but often those junkets, press 0:24:06.847 --> 0:24:10.767 junkets can be really awkward because because the stars are exhausted, 0:24:10.807 --> 0:24:13.287 they're they're having to see maybe fifty people in a 0:24:13.367 --> 0:24:15.687 day from all around the world an answer the same questions. 0:24:16.047 --> 0:24:18.967 So clearly she was she was over it. I agree, 0:24:18.967 --> 0:24:22.447 and she was a bit snarky, but you know, yeah. 0:24:22.047 --> 0:24:25.007 And look, I see both sides, right, because yes, you 0:24:25.087 --> 0:24:26.927 have to sit there and rumin answer questions about the 0:24:26.927 --> 0:24:29.007 film you made to fifty people. I would hate to 0:24:29.047 --> 0:24:31.887 do it. It's not that hard to be polite like, 0:24:32.007 --> 0:24:33.647 that's part of the job, right, You get paid a 0:24:33.687 --> 0:24:36.807 lot of money to be nice to people on camera. 0:24:36.887 --> 0:24:39.167 There's a camera there, so I agree with that. 0:24:39.207 --> 0:24:41.167 But at the same time, that woman saying this made 0:24:41.207 --> 0:24:42.727 me want to quit my job, like that was just 0:24:42.767 --> 0:24:49.287 a shameless grab for relevance and attention and follows. 0:24:49.447 --> 0:24:52.647 Initially I thought when this video was published and it 0:24:52.687 --> 0:24:54.567 started doing the rounds on YouTube, and then it got 0:24:54.607 --> 0:24:58.247 picked up on TikTok very quickly, I thought, oh, this 0:24:58.287 --> 0:24:59.487 is a Dustin Baldoni move. 0:24:59.567 --> 0:25:00.807 This has been from camp. 0:25:01.007 --> 0:25:06.087 This PR team has gone through the archives and unearthed it. 0:25:06.487 --> 0:25:08.687 And then I actually listened to an interview with the 0:25:08.767 --> 0:25:11.807 journalist who said, that's not what happened. She had seen 0:25:11.847 --> 0:25:13.647 a bit of commentary about that it ends with us 0:25:13.767 --> 0:25:16.647 pressed to her, and she thought, I'm going to share 0:25:16.647 --> 0:25:18.687 this interview I did with Blake Lively. So it seems 0:25:18.727 --> 0:25:21.247 it was organically shared by the journalists who had never 0:25:21.247 --> 0:25:22.087 published it before. 0:25:22.167 --> 0:25:25.767 Well, and also, when you're a journalist and you interview 0:25:25.887 --> 0:25:30.127 famous people, and sometimes those famous people, it doesn't go 0:25:30.247 --> 0:25:32.567 exactly how it did in your head, which is she's 0:25:32.607 --> 0:25:35.247 gonna love me and it's going to be great and 0:25:35.287 --> 0:25:36.967 I'm going to make this joke and she's going to 0:25:37.047 --> 0:25:39.487 laugh so hard. Like a lot of journalists, most of 0:25:39.567 --> 0:25:42.447 us actually have a story like that where the connection 0:25:42.727 --> 0:25:45.807 was somehow disjointed for all the reasons that Mia said before, 0:25:46.207 --> 0:25:49.487 but also they just weren't up for playing that gag 0:25:49.567 --> 0:25:52.487 a million times. And clearly it seems in that instance 0:25:53.007 --> 0:25:56.487 Blake Lively was very and she's always been very boundaried 0:25:56.527 --> 0:25:59.847 about talking about her private life, and clearly she was like, 0:25:59.887 --> 0:26:01.327 I don't want to talk about bumps. I don't want 0:26:01.327 --> 0:26:03.327 to talk about fashion. She was like in one of 0:26:03.367 --> 0:26:06.607 those take me seriously moods, and it came across very 0:26:06.607 --> 0:26:08.967 strongly right. And if I was the journal I know 0:26:09.367 --> 0:26:11.687 knows who've held grudges against celebrities who are route to 0:26:11.727 --> 0:26:14.047 them in interviews. Yeah, I'm not saying that that's a 0:26:14.087 --> 0:26:17.007 professional way for the journalists to behave either. This is 0:26:17.047 --> 0:26:19.287 the moment to unveil that interview if you've got it 0:26:19.327 --> 0:26:20.367 in your pocket. 0:26:20.207 --> 0:26:21.127 Yeah, exactly. 0:26:21.167 --> 0:26:24.287 And that's the thing is that this interview resurfaced, but 0:26:24.407 --> 0:26:27.207 so have a lot of interviews, interviews where she is 0:26:27.247 --> 0:26:31.407 sitting beside America Ferrera, who eye rolls when she's giving an. 0:26:31.287 --> 0:26:34.887 Answer America Ferrera, I rolls at Blake, Yes, in an interview. 0:26:35.047 --> 0:26:36.727 Sorry I didn't understand. 0:26:36.847 --> 0:26:39.327 Yeah, So there's a viral moment that you know was 0:26:39.647 --> 0:26:41.847 like I reckon ten years ago. It was a sisterhood 0:26:41.847 --> 0:26:42.527 of the Traveling Path. 0:26:42.647 --> 0:26:45.327 But Jesse, I need you to explain to me what's 0:26:45.367 --> 0:26:49.367 the They're there? Okay, like what did Blake do? The 0:26:49.487 --> 0:26:50.447 villain of the internet. 0:26:50.487 --> 0:26:53.647 All right, here's where it started. So we knew that 0:26:53.687 --> 0:26:56.087 there was tension between her and Justin Baldoni, which we 0:26:56.087 --> 0:27:00.287 talked about last week. People are seeing clips on TikTok 0:27:00.407 --> 0:27:03.767 where she's talking about where your florals, Grab a girlfriend, 0:27:03.807 --> 0:27:07.727 go and see this movie, and people are angry because 0:27:07.727 --> 0:27:11.247 they're going, this is about domestic violence, which Justin Baldoni 0:27:11.287 --> 0:27:13.127 is making a point of every time he talks about it. 0:27:13.247 --> 0:27:16.087 He talks about domestic violence. So people are going, Blake 0:27:16.127 --> 0:27:18.647 Lively is really undermining the themes of the movie, and 0:27:18.647 --> 0:27:21.847 she's trying to sell her haircare brand and blah blah blah. 0:27:22.207 --> 0:27:25.007 When this comes up, it has started to feed a 0:27:25.127 --> 0:27:28.167 narrative that Blake Lively is a mean girl. That's what 0:27:28.207 --> 0:27:32.127 they've decided, and even Blake Lively not talking about the 0:27:32.167 --> 0:27:37.007 domestic violence themes has become a bit of a trend 0:27:37.167 --> 0:27:40.247 or a myth being perpetuated around the Internet. There was 0:27:40.287 --> 0:27:42.807 something that Vox a quote I read in a Vox 0:27:42.887 --> 0:27:46.367 article that said, while tabloids like TMZ are reporting on 0:27:46.407 --> 0:27:49.247 a behind the scenes pr war between Lively and Baldoni, 0:27:49.727 --> 0:27:52.487 this part of the backlash, what we're talking about comes 0:27:52.487 --> 0:27:56.007 from Lively, all on her own, answering these questions the 0:27:56.047 --> 0:28:00.007 way she's chosen to. I could not disagree more. Because 0:28:00.447 --> 0:28:05.247 they will cut an interview that's fifteen minutes. They will 0:28:05.287 --> 0:28:10.327 cut thirty two seconds where she says something that looks 0:28:10.447 --> 0:28:13.167 insensitive or silly and post it and be like, look, 0:28:13.207 --> 0:28:15.847 she's not talking about domestic violence. Well, actually, if you 0:28:16.207 --> 0:28:19.327 were to extend that clip out, she does answer the question, and. 0:28:19.367 --> 0:28:23.207 Let's talk about how the internet economy works. The people 0:28:23.287 --> 0:28:27.167 who are cutting those clips for their media companies or 0:28:27.167 --> 0:28:29.167 for their you know, the people who are doing the interviews. 0:28:29.647 --> 0:28:31.847 Guess what, if you get to talk to someone for 0:28:32.007 --> 0:28:34.927 three minutes, the bit that you're going to cut and 0:28:35.087 --> 0:28:37.127 use is the bit where she talks about having just 0:28:37.167 --> 0:28:41.047 had a baby, or about her husband, or about something 0:28:41.047 --> 0:28:45.487 that is not domestic violence because it is more marketable 0:28:45.567 --> 0:28:47.287 and more people will click on it. That is not 0:28:47.407 --> 0:28:48.127 her fault. 0:28:48.607 --> 0:28:52.247 And now it's like we've written this story, so we're 0:28:52.287 --> 0:28:55.687 looking for evidence to perpetuate the story. And what we 0:28:55.887 --> 0:29:00.087 do when we cancel people, we do it broadly, but 0:29:00.207 --> 0:29:02.287 we do it in a very specific way to women 0:29:02.967 --> 0:29:06.807 is then we start to dig. And the dig has begun. 0:29:07.167 --> 0:29:11.327 So the dig is about how Ryan Reynolds allegedly cheated 0:29:11.367 --> 0:29:15.367 on Scarlet your Hansen with Blake Lively. We are talking 0:29:15.407 --> 0:29:18.567 again about their twenty twelve wedding, which was twelve years ago, 0:29:18.887 --> 0:29:22.487 which was on a plantation, and so Blake Lively also racist. 0:29:22.847 --> 0:29:25.047 The part of the story that they're not talking about 0:29:25.247 --> 0:29:28.287 is that they didn't know. They came out and apologized, 0:29:28.327 --> 0:29:31.687 they donated thousands of dollars to Black Lives Matter, and 0:29:31.687 --> 0:29:33.047 then they got remarried because they. 0:29:32.967 --> 0:29:33.847 Were so horrified. 0:29:34.527 --> 0:29:37.807 So they're going through now and finding every bit of 0:29:37.807 --> 0:29:41.447 evidence they can that Blake Lively is the devil, and 0:29:41.527 --> 0:29:45.727 the TikTok algorithm is just getting very excited about that. 0:29:45.967 --> 0:29:47.687 Claire and I are doing a bit of work on 0:29:47.727 --> 0:29:50.607 TikTok at the moment around Canceled the other podcast we do, 0:29:51.167 --> 0:29:54.207 and we've done an episode on Blake, an episode on Ryan. 0:29:54.167 --> 0:29:57.847 And explain that Canceled is a comedy podcast, so you're 0:29:57.887 --> 0:29:58.927 not actually canceling. 0:29:59.247 --> 0:30:02.327 No, it's a comedy podcast. The whole reason we started 0:30:02.327 --> 0:30:04.407 it is for moments like these, because it's. 0:30:04.287 --> 0:30:07.127 Satirical about how insane this situation. 0:30:06.807 --> 0:30:09.527 Is and how seriously we take it, and how now, 0:30:09.847 --> 0:30:11.607 for any other crime, you sit there, you get a 0:30:11.647 --> 0:30:13.687 charge and a sentence and we move on with our lives. 0:30:14.047 --> 0:30:15.927 But for Blake Lively, we. 0:30:16.047 --> 0:30:18.527 Just throw and throw and throw, when if you look 0:30:18.567 --> 0:30:22.447 at it, the no they're there thing is what exactly 0:30:22.487 --> 0:30:24.967 are we accusing her off? And that's what the podcast 0:30:24.967 --> 0:30:27.847 tries to do. On TikTok, where you know, doing a 0:30:27.847 --> 0:30:32.847 few videos, and we noticed that if we blatantly defend 0:30:33.087 --> 0:30:37.887 Blake Lively, which is our general position, the reach on 0:30:37.967 --> 0:30:41.527 those videos is minuscule, right, even if there's engagement, it's 0:30:41.527 --> 0:30:44.007 like the reach is being limited. Then there was one 0:30:44.087 --> 0:30:46.487 video that went off about Blake Lively, and when I 0:30:46.527 --> 0:30:49.607 had a look at how we'd sold it, I went, Oh, 0:30:50.287 --> 0:30:53.247 if I was the algorithm, I would probably think that 0:30:53.287 --> 0:30:54.887 we were going to add a little bit of fuel 0:30:54.927 --> 0:30:57.407 to the fire. Now, there are a few things going on. 0:30:57.607 --> 0:31:01.487 The first is that it's a self fulfilling prophecy. People 0:31:01.527 --> 0:31:05.607 want bad things about Blake. I also think something is 0:31:05.647 --> 0:31:08.967 happening with TikTok. You spoke before about Justin Baldoni and 0:31:09.287 --> 0:31:14.047 he's pr Crisis team who won the Johnny Depp amber 0:31:14.087 --> 0:31:18.647 Herd trial. Holly you recently recommended who trolled Amber, which 0:31:18.887 --> 0:31:22.167 looked at how you can basically get bots to win 0:31:22.847 --> 0:31:27.127 your affection in the public narrative. Something is going on here. 0:31:27.247 --> 0:31:28.487 I feel that very strongly. 0:31:28.687 --> 0:31:31.647 I also just think, though we all need the perspective 0:31:31.807 --> 0:31:35.447 that this movie is a big success. It was an 0:31:35.447 --> 0:31:37.967 indie movie that didn't cost very much money to make. 0:31:38.687 --> 0:31:41.967 Everybody is going to see it. All of this attention 0:31:42.127 --> 0:31:44.887 is also making more and more people see it. And 0:31:45.287 --> 0:31:47.527 the thing that's interesting to me is that all of 0:31:47.527 --> 0:31:49.607 this Blake Lively stuff comes down to something that we 0:31:49.647 --> 0:31:52.367 talk about all the time, which is successful woman and 0:31:52.447 --> 0:31:56.167 having a very successful moment. She must be awful, she 0:31:56.247 --> 0:31:58.807 must be a terrible person, she must not be likable, 0:31:59.247 --> 0:32:02.127 and they're digging up everything that makes her seem like 0:32:02.167 --> 0:32:04.247 a bit of a bitch. Basically so that then everyone 0:32:04.247 --> 0:32:06.887 can go Blake Lively bit of a bitch and clearly 0:32:06.927 --> 0:32:10.327 doesn't like women because she doesn't really care about domestic violence, 0:32:11.007 --> 0:32:16.447 and all of those things are so subjective and so nonsense. Also, 0:32:16.527 --> 0:32:20.287 the idea that Blake Lively and Blake Lively alone decided 0:32:20.327 --> 0:32:22.967 how this movie was going to be marketed is so 0:32:23.287 --> 0:32:26.047 stupid that I can't bear it. Yes, of course she 0:32:26.087 --> 0:32:28.247 has a lot of power. She does because she's got 0:32:28.247 --> 0:32:31.007 a producer credit, She's married to one of Hollywood's most 0:32:31.007 --> 0:32:34.047 powerful men, no questions, She's got loads of power. But 0:32:34.247 --> 0:32:37.047 this is not the first film that is about a 0:32:37.167 --> 0:32:40.367 serious topic that has been marketed in a frivolous way. 0:32:40.487 --> 0:32:45.247 It happens all the time, and it particularly happens when 0:32:45.247 --> 0:32:49.047 you are talking about violence against women. It's interesting because 0:32:49.927 --> 0:32:52.607 Colleen Hoover so who wrote these books, and they are 0:32:52.767 --> 0:32:55.207 enormously successful. We touched on this last week, but not 0:32:55.327 --> 0:32:59.527 just a little bit successful, like world headlines successful. She 0:32:59.607 --> 0:33:01.607 is one of the best selling authors in the world. 0:33:01.647 --> 0:33:05.007 So everybody knows what this book is about, right because 0:33:05.007 --> 0:33:08.247 twenty million people have read it. And she also marketed 0:33:08.287 --> 0:33:10.727 the books with pretty flowers on the cover and in 0:33:10.727 --> 0:33:13.687 a particular way. And I spoke a couple of years 0:33:13.687 --> 0:33:16.647 ago about how the last book that I wrote, which 0:33:16.687 --> 0:33:19.727 is termed commercial women's fiction, which is what Colleen Hoover 0:33:19.847 --> 0:33:23.207 is certainly termed as is generally seen to be frivolous 0:33:23.247 --> 0:33:26.047 and silly and you've got to put stripes or flowers 0:33:26.087 --> 0:33:29.167 or pink on the cover, but actually very often deal 0:33:29.207 --> 0:33:31.967 with serious, gritty things that are part of women's lives, 0:33:32.727 --> 0:33:36.287 are always sneered at and always looked down upon when 0:33:36.367 --> 0:33:38.927 actually women love them, like the women who are flocking 0:33:38.927 --> 0:33:41.727 to see this film and the women who read Colleen 0:33:41.767 --> 0:33:45.127 Hoover books. You know, there's snobby attitudes about those books. 0:33:45.487 --> 0:33:47.247 And I want to be really clear that I haven't 0:33:47.247 --> 0:33:49.087 read them, because when we talked about it last time, 0:33:49.127 --> 0:33:51.287 a couple of people said, oh, Holly sounded snooty about 0:33:51.287 --> 0:33:54.687 those books. I haven't read them. But people who are 0:33:54.767 --> 0:33:59.087 very serious about literature in inverted commas look down enormously 0:33:59.127 --> 0:34:01.567 on the Colleen Hoovers of the world because she started 0:34:01.607 --> 0:34:04.927 off self published. She writes books about women's lives that 0:34:04.967 --> 0:34:07.447 women want to read, but she doesn't come from a 0:34:07.567 --> 0:34:11.087 storied literary background. It annoys a lot of people. It 0:34:11.167 --> 0:34:13.727 probably also annoys a lot of people that this movie 0:34:14.047 --> 0:34:17.327 that you know, a powerful woman has helped promote and 0:34:17.407 --> 0:34:20.567 make is doing really well. And I just think we 0:34:20.647 --> 0:34:24.647 need to really examine what we're being sold here. If 0:34:24.687 --> 0:34:25.687 you want to go and see. 0:34:25.567 --> 0:34:27.407 This movie, who cares. 0:34:27.127 --> 0:34:30.167 Whether Blake Lively sometimes is in a bad mood, rolls 0:34:30.167 --> 0:34:32.807 her eyes like have you never been in a bad mood? 0:34:32.807 --> 0:34:35.967 And rolls her eyes like are we what is this about? 0:34:36.167 --> 0:34:39.767 Well, that's a great irony, right is it? Yes, people 0:34:39.807 --> 0:34:41.047 are going to see it, and it's making a lot 0:34:41.087 --> 0:34:43.167 of money, so you go is a success? Who even 0:34:43.207 --> 0:34:45.847 cares about the backlash if people go and see a 0:34:45.887 --> 0:34:49.927 movie that's about domestic violence and about gendered relationships and 0:34:50.047 --> 0:34:53.487 power in those dynamics and they walk out of that 0:34:53.527 --> 0:34:56.407 film going I liked the film, but Blake Lively is 0:34:56.447 --> 0:35:00.287 a bitch. There's a great irony there, which is that 0:35:00.807 --> 0:35:05.647 we are still perpetuating this hatred of women, and we 0:35:05.727 --> 0:35:08.847 can't see that that's a problem. The way that I've 0:35:08.887 --> 0:35:13.167 seen TikTok in particular interpret this is that everything bad 0:35:13.167 --> 0:35:15.687 about this project is the fault of the women. So 0:35:15.807 --> 0:35:19.487 Colleen Hoover in Perfect Story, Blake Lively in perfect marketing, 0:35:19.967 --> 0:35:23.567 and anything good about the film is the work of 0:35:23.647 --> 0:35:28.127 the man. And if you can't see that entrenched within 0:35:28.287 --> 0:35:32.927 that is misogyny, which is the same route that perpetuates 0:35:32.967 --> 0:35:36.447 domestic violence. I think you're missing something. And that's not 0:35:36.487 --> 0:35:38.367 to say that Blake Lively is perfect or that she 0:35:38.487 --> 0:35:40.687 doesn't want criticism. I'm sure that she does. 0:35:40.647 --> 0:35:44.207 But not like this, the volume compared to the crime. 0:35:45.207 --> 0:35:50.967 And I say crime like rolling my eyes, because everybody's 0:35:51.007 --> 0:35:53.007 just looking to hate. And you know, I even read 0:35:53.007 --> 0:35:55.447 a quote that someone had said in one of these interviews, 0:35:55.487 --> 0:35:58.047 if you have a message for victims of domestic violence, 0:35:58.447 --> 0:36:00.367 what would it be? And she said, you should just 0:36:00.447 --> 0:36:04.007 know that you are not defined by what's happened to you. 0:36:04.007 --> 0:36:08.807 You are more than your worst experience, which is something 0:36:08.847 --> 0:36:13.327 that's fairly anadyne to say and is lovely and seemingly inoffensive. 0:36:13.927 --> 0:36:17.287 It's spun into oh, she doesn't care and she doesn't understand, 0:36:17.367 --> 0:36:22.127 and it's just like everyone's just looking to pile on. 0:36:22.367 --> 0:36:25.287 And it's what you say, Jesse. I can't think of 0:36:25.967 --> 0:36:28.447 a time recently when it's been a man like you. 0:36:28.487 --> 0:36:31.807 Look at j Lo, it was similar, you know, whether 0:36:31.847 --> 0:36:34.247 it's Meghan, and perhaps we're also guilty of it on 0:36:34.287 --> 0:36:39.327 this show. It's about Meghan, not Harry, Jlo, not Ben. 0:36:39.487 --> 0:36:41.647 And it's funny. I was thinking at the logis last 0:36:41.727 --> 0:36:46.127 night when Larry Emda won. The men always win and 0:36:46.167 --> 0:36:51.287 are nominated. Carl won gold, Lisa was never not even nominated. 0:36:51.847 --> 0:36:54.807 Larry one gold. Kyler Gillies, who he also sits next 0:36:54.847 --> 0:36:57.367 to you on the couch every single day, you know, 0:36:57.487 --> 0:36:58.527 is not even nominated. 0:36:58.647 --> 0:37:00.367 We do have to look at ourselves about this a 0:37:00.367 --> 0:37:02.247 little bit. I know that you'll tell me I'm finger 0:37:02.287 --> 0:37:05.567 wagging mere and you're probably right, But why can't we 0:37:05.647 --> 0:37:08.767 watch a woman she's having a big pr moment because 0:37:08.767 --> 0:37:11.407 she's got some big to sell. For nine of the 0:37:11.487 --> 0:37:13.487 last ten years, you wouldn't have heard from Blake Lively. 0:37:13.607 --> 0:37:16.167 You know, she's off doing her stuff. She's out there, 0:37:16.207 --> 0:37:19.327 putting herself out there to sell something that she believes in. 0:37:19.647 --> 0:37:21.807 And all any of us want to do is scratch 0:37:21.807 --> 0:37:23.727 away at the surface. There must be something wrong here, 0:37:23.767 --> 0:37:25.967 there must be something bad here, there must be something 0:37:26.047 --> 0:37:29.967 dodgy about her. And it's like, why are we surprised 0:37:29.967 --> 0:37:31.487 that women don't want to put the heads above the 0:37:31.527 --> 0:37:34.407 parapet and put things out there and talk about them 0:37:34.727 --> 0:37:36.087 when this is what will come your way. 0:37:36.007 --> 0:37:36.367 If you do. 0:37:38.687 --> 0:37:41.887 Every Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments of Mummy 0:37:41.927 --> 0:37:45.527 A out Loud just for MUMMYA subscribers. Follow the link 0:37:45.527 --> 0:37:47.407 in the show notes to get your daily dose of 0:37:47.447 --> 0:37:49.927 out Loud and a big thank you to all our 0:37:49.967 --> 0:37:50.927 current subscribers. 0:37:58.927 --> 0:38:03.087 Five people, including two doctors and his personal assistant, have 0:38:03.207 --> 0:38:06.807 been changed in connection with Matthew Perry's drug related death. 0:38:07.047 --> 0:38:10.567 Matthew Perry was so open about his history of drug 0:38:10.607 --> 0:38:13.407 abuse that he wrote an entire book about it. It's 0:38:13.647 --> 0:38:15.887 a really good book. We've spoken about it on the 0:38:15.927 --> 0:38:19.927 show before, published before his death, about the fact that 0:38:20.047 --> 0:38:24.207 he had been so addicted to payingkillers for decades, was 0:38:24.247 --> 0:38:27.367 so deeply entrenched in his battle with addiction that he 0:38:27.527 --> 0:38:32.687 had spent something like nine million American dollars on trying 0:38:32.727 --> 0:38:35.927 to beat it over the years. Of course, Perry was 0:38:35.967 --> 0:38:41.247 the very, very successful Friends star who died last October, 0:38:41.487 --> 0:38:44.327 and many reports said that when he was found on 0:38:44.487 --> 0:38:47.367 responsive in his hot tob and his La home that 0:38:47.447 --> 0:38:49.927 it was a shock but not a surprise, And those 0:38:49.967 --> 0:38:52.767 were actually the words that he used in his book 0:38:53.207 --> 0:38:56.207 about how his own family would have felt at various 0:38:56.247 --> 0:39:00.167 stages of his life if he had overdosed. So, if 0:39:00.167 --> 0:39:03.007 his passing was a case of self inflicted OD, why 0:39:03.087 --> 0:39:08.207 have five people now been charged over his death. Last Friday, 0:39:08.287 --> 0:39:11.207 the news that police had arrested one of Perry's doctors, 0:39:11.247 --> 0:39:14.647 his personal assistant, and a woman widely referred to as 0:39:14.687 --> 0:39:18.967 the Ketamine Queen made headlines around the world. The fact 0:39:19.007 --> 0:39:21.647 that he died of an overdose of ketamine, which is 0:39:21.687 --> 0:39:26.287 a powerful, short acting anesthetic, was widely greeted with some 0:39:26.327 --> 0:39:29.527 surprise in Hollywood last year because that drug has been 0:39:29.567 --> 0:39:33.567 in the headlines a lot as a therapeutic treatment for 0:39:33.727 --> 0:39:38.687 anxiety and depression among sort of Silicon Valley tech bros. 0:39:38.767 --> 0:39:41.047 And there are in American this is certainly not true 0:39:41.047 --> 0:39:44.007 in Australia. It is legal to be used in therapeutic 0:39:44.127 --> 0:39:46.847 settings outside of hospitals, so it was once used as 0:39:46.847 --> 0:39:50.567 an anesthetic and a tranquilizer, a horse tranquilizer, yeah, a 0:39:50.567 --> 0:39:53.687 horse tranquiliser, but also by surgeons as a very effective 0:39:53.887 --> 0:39:58.607 anesthetic for operations and very serious things. You know, I've 0:39:58.607 --> 0:40:01.607 listened to podcast hosts talk about their therapy with it. 0:40:01.487 --> 0:40:06.527 It had become sort of mainstreamed, right, But apparently what 0:40:06.687 --> 0:40:10.487 had happened with Perry is is that his doctor first 0:40:10.487 --> 0:40:13.767 prescribed him ketmine for depression. But as a man had 0:40:13.767 --> 0:40:16.847 fought addictions to painkillers for decades, it's not surprising that 0:40:16.967 --> 0:40:19.607 his use spiraled, and by the time of his death, 0:40:20.127 --> 0:40:23.407 his assistant police alleged was injecting him many times a 0:40:23.487 --> 0:40:25.447 day with dangerous levels. 0:40:25.207 --> 0:40:25.727 Of the drug. 0:40:25.927 --> 0:40:28.367 It was so sad reading about that. It was in 0:40:28.447 --> 0:40:30.087 his doctor tragedy. 0:40:29.767 --> 0:40:32.807 And the woman who was the dealer it seems here, 0:40:32.847 --> 0:40:35.807 who they largely call the ketamine Queen, who apparently deals 0:40:35.807 --> 0:40:38.887 with a lot of very high end Hollywood clients, were 0:40:38.967 --> 0:40:41.287 convinced that they could get Perry to pay almost anything 0:40:41.327 --> 0:40:43.687 for this drug. There was a text from the doctor saying, 0:40:43.727 --> 0:40:46.327 I wonder how much this moron would pay, and the 0:40:46.407 --> 0:40:48.847 answer was a lot. He apparently was paying more than 0:40:48.847 --> 0:40:52.527 one hundred and sixty five times its price by the 0:40:52.607 --> 0:40:55.807 time of his death. Jesse, do you think that this 0:40:55.927 --> 0:41:00.607 story will derail that changing narrative about drugs like ketamine 0:41:00.607 --> 0:41:02.807 being used in therapy or is it just a story 0:41:02.927 --> 0:41:06.847 about a celebrity who was able to push all the guardrails. 0:41:07.047 --> 0:41:07.967 I don't think it will. 0:41:08.407 --> 0:41:12.567 The more I rare about this story, the more I 0:41:13.007 --> 0:41:15.767 realized that it was about someone who was in such 0:41:15.767 --> 0:41:18.087 a position that no one could say no to him, 0:41:18.367 --> 0:41:20.607 and that's the most dangerous position anyone can be in. 0:41:21.127 --> 0:41:24.407 There was a great column by Marina Hyde who said, 0:41:24.807 --> 0:41:28.687 getting yourself into a position where people can't deny you 0:41:29.087 --> 0:41:32.927 of what you ask for is where things get really scary. 0:41:33.047 --> 0:41:36.967 I think Michael Jackson was in a similar position. It 0:41:37.087 --> 0:41:38.887 kind of clarified, and I think that this is more 0:41:38.927 --> 0:41:41.367 the case in the US, and it is in Australia. 0:41:41.407 --> 0:41:45.167 But if you have enough money, the hippocratic oath of 0:41:45.367 --> 0:41:48.447 do no harm can be absolutely ignored. There are people 0:41:48.967 --> 0:41:52.207 at all levels in medicine who have studied this because 0:41:52.927 --> 0:41:54.927 reading this from the outside, you would go, oh, he 0:41:55.007 --> 0:41:57.887 had a drug dealer, like a street drug dealer, but 0:41:57.927 --> 0:42:00.527 you go no. These were people in white coats who 0:42:00.607 --> 0:42:04.807 had an absolute responsibility to him and his health to 0:42:04.927 --> 0:42:07.047 not give him as much as he wanted. Because the 0:42:07.087 --> 0:42:10.647 doctors who had initially prescribed this or his mental health 0:42:10.647 --> 0:42:13.007 issues they were allowed to do that, did so in 0:42:13.047 --> 0:42:16.127 small doses. He felt it wasn't enough for him and 0:42:16.167 --> 0:42:17.367 so he was going. 0:42:17.447 --> 0:42:19.887 And the clinic I think ended up refusing to treat 0:42:19.967 --> 0:42:22.167 him because he was wanting more and more. 0:42:22.207 --> 0:42:23.487 But they were doing the right thing. 0:42:24.007 --> 0:42:29.807 This is the problem with not everyone can take drugs 0:42:29.847 --> 0:42:31.727 and have the same effect. I don't just mean the 0:42:31.727 --> 0:42:35.047 effect of the drugs, I mean how they feel about 0:42:35.087 --> 0:42:37.687 it afterwards. So Holy, I've listened to some of the 0:42:37.687 --> 0:42:40.207 same podcasts as you with people that we both know 0:42:40.367 --> 0:42:44.407 who've tried ketamine therapy, and they literally, because these are 0:42:44.407 --> 0:42:47.127 people who don't take drugs or don't have problems with addiction, 0:42:47.447 --> 0:42:49.487 they go to the clinic, they take it, they go, oh, 0:42:49.527 --> 0:42:51.207 that was interesting, and either they liked it or they 0:42:51.247 --> 0:42:54.327 didn't like it. But then that's the end, right, It's 0:42:54.367 --> 0:42:57.847 like having a one time experience. But people who have 0:42:57.927 --> 0:43:00.487 addiction issues, or who are prone to addiction, who have 0:43:00.527 --> 0:43:03.967 a history of addiction, they can't. So there is no 0:43:04.167 --> 0:43:06.447 safe way. There was never a safe going to be 0:43:06.447 --> 0:43:09.927 a safe way for Matthew Perry to try ketamine. 0:43:10.007 --> 0:43:12.207 And this is what's confusing, right, because I was looking 0:43:12.207 --> 0:43:12.447 it up. 0:43:12.527 --> 0:43:17.607 Ketamine isn't addictive, but the feeling you get from the 0:43:17.727 --> 0:43:21.247 ketamine is likely addictive to someone who has had a 0:43:21.327 --> 0:43:24.047 history of an addictive so I think that the doctors 0:43:24.087 --> 0:43:27.847 who initially prescribed did it in a controlled way were 0:43:27.847 --> 0:43:30.247 probably doing the right thing. And there are doctors who 0:43:30.287 --> 0:43:33.727 are exploring this and doing research papers, and I encourage that. 0:43:33.807 --> 0:43:36.247 I think the more research we do about treatments for 0:43:36.247 --> 0:43:38.927 anxiety and depression and pain and all of it is 0:43:39.007 --> 0:43:39.567 really good. 0:43:40.047 --> 0:43:41.767 But to me, this. 0:43:41.687 --> 0:43:45.967 Became about wanting more and having the means. But I 0:43:46.007 --> 0:43:49.847 suppose that if you're someone who is an addict, whether 0:43:49.967 --> 0:43:52.167 or not you're Matthew Perry, and you have all the 0:43:52.167 --> 0:43:55.327 money in the world, the lengths you'll go to to 0:43:55.447 --> 0:43:59.207 get what you want are pretty extreme, which is what 0:43:59.287 --> 0:43:59.807 we saw. 0:44:00.087 --> 0:44:04.647 His personal assistant had been working for him since nineteen 0:44:04.767 --> 0:44:07.927 ninety four. I also have read the book, and you 0:44:07.927 --> 0:44:10.407 know clearly he was had a lot of drug problems 0:44:10.407 --> 0:44:14.087 through that whole time. He really struggled with addiction. So 0:44:14.167 --> 0:44:17.327 this is obviously someone who has been and it's hard 0:44:17.327 --> 0:44:19.927 to say whether he was enabling Perry. I mean he was, 0:44:19.967 --> 0:44:24.047 but also he needed a job presumably, or was he 0:44:24.167 --> 0:44:29.807 exploding Perry. Was Perry exploiting him. It's really hard to say. 0:44:30.207 --> 0:44:35.007 And that's why when he died suddenly, and all those 0:44:35.047 --> 0:44:37.047 people rushed out to say, no, there were no drug 0:44:37.047 --> 0:44:39.887 paraphernalia found in the house. That's because the assistant who 0:44:39.967 --> 0:44:42.807 had injected him that morning more than once, came home 0:44:42.927 --> 0:44:45.367 found his body quickly before calling nine to one one 0:44:45.727 --> 0:44:48.167 after he'd pulled him out and established that he couldn't 0:44:48.167 --> 0:44:51.607 be arrived, went and cleaned up all the drug paraphernalia, 0:44:51.687 --> 0:44:54.087 so it wasn't found. But then so much catamine was 0:44:54.127 --> 0:44:56.687 found in his system that it started this investigation. But 0:44:56.727 --> 0:44:58.847 I mean, anyone who was following him on social media, 0:44:59.167 --> 0:45:00.767 all these claims, Oh he was sober, He was so 0:45:00.807 --> 0:45:02.927 but he wasn't sober, and you could tell that by 0:45:02.927 --> 0:45:04.767 looking at his social posts. 0:45:04.767 --> 0:45:07.487 There were also they were able to look at the 0:45:07.687 --> 0:45:11.087 Google searches of the ketamine Queen as they called her, 0:45:11.407 --> 0:45:14.127 who had very quickly googled if ketemine can be cited 0:45:14.167 --> 0:45:16.287 as a cause of death, and then in the group 0:45:16.327 --> 0:45:19.327 text were saying delete these threads, delete these threads. I'm 0:45:19.407 --> 0:45:21.887 ninety percent sure we're not liable that kind of thing. 0:45:22.007 --> 0:45:25.487 So there was obviously some understanding of how dangerous these 0:45:25.527 --> 0:45:27.807 levels were. They just didn't care because of the money 0:45:27.807 --> 0:45:29.847 they were getting. I think they said, like twelve US 0:45:29.887 --> 0:45:32.047 dollars for a vile of kenemine. They were selling it 0:45:32.047 --> 0:45:32.767 for thousands. 0:45:33.007 --> 0:45:35.527 One of the reasons why I really I think about 0:45:35.607 --> 0:45:37.727 Matthew Perry's book a lot is because I think it 0:45:37.887 --> 0:45:40.967 is one of the most honest and visceral descriptions of 0:45:40.967 --> 0:45:45.407 addiction that I've ever read. Because I think from the outside, 0:45:45.487 --> 0:45:50.767 it might be simple to dismiss, you know, his struggles 0:45:50.887 --> 0:45:53.047 as well. He was a man with too much privilege 0:45:53.047 --> 0:45:55.927 and too much access to everything, But he often talked 0:45:55.967 --> 0:45:59.487 about how, you know, other people he knew could walk 0:45:59.567 --> 0:46:01.967 away from things that he absolutely couldn't, which is back 0:46:02.007 --> 0:46:04.647 to what you said mea. The thing about it is 0:46:04.727 --> 0:46:07.247 really good, Jesse, that all these different kinds of drugs 0:46:07.247 --> 0:46:10.167 that are illegal and now being re examined in a 0:46:10.207 --> 0:46:14.047 way because there's also lots of hallucinogen research about whether 0:46:14.087 --> 0:46:16.567 that can help with anxiety and depression. But you'll often 0:46:16.567 --> 0:46:19.727 hear addicts say, people who are sober and in recovery, 0:46:19.967 --> 0:46:22.807 that's just not an option that I can take because 0:46:22.807 --> 0:46:26.127 I know what will happen. And Matthew Perry was in 0:46:26.127 --> 0:46:28.447 that camp, and he would have known that too, And 0:46:28.487 --> 0:46:32.487 it's just so heartbreakingly sad that there's a little industry 0:46:32.527 --> 0:46:36.007 there that were just so ready and eager to exploit 0:46:36.087 --> 0:46:39.527 that and call the man a moron and give him 0:46:39.527 --> 0:46:41.807 as much as he could physically, well not even that 0:46:41.887 --> 0:46:45.167 he couldn't physically take. It's just kind of devastatingly sad. 0:46:45.207 --> 0:46:48.447 I think for the people around Matthew Perry who just 0:46:48.487 --> 0:46:51.247 can't understand why this could never be beaten for him. 0:46:52.047 --> 0:46:54.927 Last week, em Rada needed our help, didn't she. 0:46:54.927 --> 0:46:55.807 She did just. 0:46:55.727 --> 0:46:59.887 Because she's divorced, and in a recent interview she opened 0:46:59.967 --> 0:47:03.327 up about what became of her marriage, how the dynamic shifted. 0:47:03.887 --> 0:47:06.967 And there's also a viral video going around talking about 0:47:07.007 --> 0:47:12.047 this theory that no marriage can sustain to big jobs, 0:47:12.607 --> 0:47:16.407 and we discussed whether that's true. We looked at how 0:47:16.527 --> 0:47:19.407 em Rata kind of fell victim to a lot of 0:47:19.447 --> 0:47:22.807 the gendered dynamics that a lot of women do, and 0:47:22.847 --> 0:47:25.767 it made for a very interesting conversation. A link to 0:47:25.807 --> 0:47:28.327 that subscriber episode will be in the show notes. 0:47:28.887 --> 0:47:30.967 Thank you out Louders for being with us on this 0:47:31.047 --> 0:47:33.287 post logis Monday. I don't think that Meo did too 0:47:33.327 --> 0:47:36.087 much of a carl, did she really? She backed that 0:47:36.167 --> 0:47:39.247 up pretty well. We will be back in your ears 0:47:39.247 --> 0:47:43.247 tomorrow and thank you to our fabulous team for helping 0:47:43.287 --> 0:47:44.327 us put this show together. 0:47:44.687 --> 0:47:45.727 We'll see you tomorrow. 0:47:45.807 --> 0:47:46.727 Bye bye. 0:47:47.487 --> 0:47:50.367 Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening. If you 0:47:50.527 --> 0:47:53.407 love the show and you want to support us, subscribing 0:47:53.407 --> 0:47:55.887 to MoMA Mia is the very best way to do it. 0:47:56.047 --> 0:47:57.927 There's a link in the episode description.