1 00:00:10,327 --> 00:00:13,047 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,727 --> 00:00:16,767 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:16,807 --> 00:00:23,767 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to 4 00:00:23,807 --> 00:00:26,567 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking 5 00:00:26,607 --> 00:00:30,887 Speaker 2: about on Monday, the nineteenth of August. I'm Holly Wainwright. 6 00:00:30,647 --> 00:00:31,767 Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stevens. 7 00:00:31,967 --> 00:00:34,087 Speaker 1: I'm mea Friedman. No, no, I'm still at the logis. 8 00:00:35,567 --> 00:00:36,967 Speaker 3: What time did you have to get there? Yesterday? 9 00:00:37,687 --> 00:00:37,967 Speaker 4: God? 10 00:00:38,007 --> 00:00:40,367 Speaker 1: I got their hat. The red carpet started at three 11 00:00:40,367 --> 00:00:43,727 Speaker 1: point thirty, so we got there at four. I left there. 12 00:00:44,007 --> 00:00:46,327 Speaker 1: I was the first one in Anoba, Brunna and I 13 00:00:46,567 --> 00:00:50,847 Speaker 1: and that was midnight, just after midnight, maybe quarter past twelve. 14 00:00:51,487 --> 00:00:54,167 Speaker 2: I'm justay. So the outlouders are aware. Mia does not 15 00:00:54,407 --> 00:00:59,167 Speaker 2: generally do long long events. That's an absolute marathon for 16 00:00:59,367 --> 00:01:02,967 Speaker 2: event friend events at all. Anyway, on the show today, 17 00:01:03,087 --> 00:01:05,647 Speaker 2: as already discussed, Mia is going to tell us about 18 00:01:05,647 --> 00:01:08,047 Speaker 2: the logis. She's very, very tired, as she said, but 19 00:01:08,127 --> 00:01:10,127 Speaker 2: she's a professional, God damn it, and she's going to 20 00:01:10,167 --> 00:01:15,567 Speaker 2: push through. Also, why is absolutely everything suddenly Blake Lively's fault? 21 00:01:15,687 --> 00:01:19,727 Speaker 2: The anatomy of a mighty backlash and why five people 22 00:01:19,767 --> 00:01:23,167 Speaker 2: have been charged with the death of friend's icon Matthew Perry. 23 00:01:23,287 --> 00:01:27,207 Speaker 2: But first, Jesse, in case you missed it, today, the 24 00:01:27,247 --> 00:01:31,367 Speaker 2: three of us are looking very demure. We're being very mindful, 25 00:01:31,607 --> 00:01:34,567 Speaker 2: very cutesye and if that doesn't make sense to you, 26 00:01:34,647 --> 00:01:38,647 Speaker 2: welcome to the Internet. A TikTok trend has thrusted the 27 00:01:38,687 --> 00:01:42,647 Speaker 2: word demure back into the lexicon, even though I'm fairly 28 00:01:42,687 --> 00:01:45,927 Speaker 2: certain that most people don't actually know what it means. 29 00:01:46,487 --> 00:01:49,527 Speaker 2: It all started with a TikTok creator named Jules Lebron 30 00:01:49,647 --> 00:01:53,367 Speaker 2: posting a video with tips about managing you know, your 31 00:01:53,367 --> 00:01:56,207 Speaker 2: makeup and your mustache sweat, how to deal with it. 32 00:01:56,447 --> 00:01:59,167 Speaker 2: Here's what she said in the og video. 33 00:01:59,847 --> 00:02:03,007 Speaker 4: Very demure, very mindful. I don't come to work with 34 00:02:03,047 --> 00:02:05,767 Speaker 4: a green cut crew, don't look like a clown. When 35 00:02:05,807 --> 00:02:07,847 Speaker 4: I go to work, I don't do too much. I'm 36 00:02:07,927 --> 00:02:11,607 Speaker 4: very mindful while I'm out. See how I look very presentable. 37 00:02:11,727 --> 00:02:13,887 Speaker 4: The way I came to the interview is the way 38 00:02:13,887 --> 00:02:16,327 Speaker 4: I go to the job. A lot of you girls 39 00:02:16,327 --> 00:02:18,887 Speaker 4: go to the interview looking like Marriage Simpson and go 40 00:02:18,967 --> 00:02:22,487 Speaker 4: to the job looking like Patty and Selma, not demure. 41 00:02:22,807 --> 00:02:25,807 Speaker 4: I'm very modest, I'm very mindful. You see my shirt 42 00:02:26,367 --> 00:02:29,807 Speaker 4: only a little chi chio, not my be mindful of 43 00:02:29,887 --> 00:02:33,687 Speaker 4: why they hired you. Here's your reality check, diva. What's 44 00:02:33,727 --> 00:02:35,287 Speaker 4: the name you'd like me to make it out to? 45 00:02:35,567 --> 00:02:35,767 Speaker 5: Oh? 46 00:02:35,807 --> 00:02:36,527 Speaker 2: I love it. 47 00:02:36,527 --> 00:02:40,327 Speaker 5: It's the context to this is that Jules Lebron is 48 00:02:40,527 --> 00:02:45,327 Speaker 5: a trans woman, and so there's something very ironic and 49 00:02:45,647 --> 00:02:49,887 Speaker 5: she is being sarcastic with a raised eyebrow speaking about 50 00:02:50,087 --> 00:02:54,567 Speaker 5: femininity and gender in a way that's actually very cool 51 00:02:54,647 --> 00:02:56,127 Speaker 5: and very transgressive. 52 00:02:56,527 --> 00:02:59,047 Speaker 1: It's like a bit and she's really lent in. Since 53 00:02:59,087 --> 00:03:01,927 Speaker 1: it's gone viral, she's lent in. And now if you 54 00:03:02,007 --> 00:03:05,967 Speaker 1: go to her account, there's like twenty different reels of 55 00:03:06,007 --> 00:03:09,047 Speaker 1: her at the airport. How to be mindful at the airport. 56 00:03:09,047 --> 00:03:11,007 Speaker 1: It's like, I just have a soda at the airport, 57 00:03:11,167 --> 00:03:14,527 Speaker 1: very mindful, very demure. I'm not like you other girls 58 00:03:14,527 --> 00:03:14,927 Speaker 1: who do. 59 00:03:15,007 --> 00:03:19,527 Speaker 5: Shut because demure means reserved and shy. 60 00:03:19,407 --> 00:03:20,487 Speaker 1: And kind of feminist. 61 00:03:21,167 --> 00:03:24,727 Speaker 5: Femin and the trend then, you know, took on a 62 00:03:24,767 --> 00:03:27,367 Speaker 5: life of its own. And you see women going, see 63 00:03:27,367 --> 00:03:30,367 Speaker 5: how I'm eating this donut, very demure, and they're just 64 00:03:30,407 --> 00:03:33,367 Speaker 5: like eating a donut like a mad person, or like 65 00:03:33,767 --> 00:03:37,087 Speaker 5: having a diet coke fountain in my house is very demure, 66 00:03:37,167 --> 00:03:41,207 Speaker 5: which it's not. That's the opposite of So that's why 67 00:03:41,287 --> 00:03:43,167 Speaker 5: it's funny. Have you guys heard this everywhere? 68 00:03:43,287 --> 00:03:43,567 Speaker 4: Look? 69 00:03:43,687 --> 00:03:44,047 Speaker 2: I have. 70 00:03:44,447 --> 00:03:47,167 Speaker 1: And the thing about the internet now, and I know 71 00:03:47,207 --> 00:03:49,167 Speaker 1: that some out louders are like, well are you talking 72 00:03:49,167 --> 00:03:51,447 Speaker 1: about things that are on TikTok? The thing with TikTok 73 00:03:51,607 --> 00:03:55,607 Speaker 1: is that it is dictating culture. And I like that 74 00:03:55,647 --> 00:03:58,087 Speaker 1: there are just random, weird, funny things, but it can 75 00:03:58,127 --> 00:04:00,727 Speaker 1: often feel like the culture has become a joke that 76 00:04:00,767 --> 00:04:03,767 Speaker 1: you're never in on. It's an inside joke, and by 77 00:04:03,807 --> 00:04:06,927 Speaker 1: the time someone explains the joke to you, it's not 78 00:04:07,007 --> 00:04:09,447 Speaker 1: at all funny. And also it's over and there's another one, 79 00:04:10,567 --> 00:04:13,967 Speaker 1: And so you can have that constant feeling like you're 80 00:04:14,047 --> 00:04:16,527 Speaker 1: always just out of the loop, or that you've sort 81 00:04:16,527 --> 00:04:18,887 Speaker 1: of come in halfway through a conversation. And even if 82 00:04:18,927 --> 00:04:21,287 Speaker 1: you're fluent in TikTok and the Internet, which we all are, 83 00:04:22,407 --> 00:04:25,247 Speaker 1: it can be really hard to get to the bottom 84 00:04:25,287 --> 00:04:28,487 Speaker 1: of what it actually is. Like I remember we slipped 85 00:04:28,527 --> 00:04:31,287 Speaker 1: back bun and whatever that thing was when we did 86 00:04:31,327 --> 00:04:34,807 Speaker 1: the stupid dance. I had to google what it means 87 00:04:34,847 --> 00:04:36,567 Speaker 1: and then you go down this rabbit hole and then 88 00:04:36,567 --> 00:04:39,647 Speaker 1: you're like, I have a life. I have a mortgage 89 00:04:39,647 --> 00:04:46,487 Speaker 1: of responsibilities. I can't be playing CSI TikTok every three days. 90 00:04:46,767 --> 00:04:51,727 Speaker 2: Also, the speed is remarkable, right because I'm probably quite 91 00:04:51,927 --> 00:04:54,127 Speaker 2: basic when it comes to this stuff, and I open 92 00:04:54,247 --> 00:04:58,247 Speaker 2: probably my Instagram on Saturday, and suddenly everybody's demule, like 93 00:04:58,287 --> 00:05:01,967 Speaker 2: suddenly just everything, and then the Logi's red carpet last night, 94 00:05:02,167 --> 00:05:04,327 Speaker 2: and Tony Armstrong and his girlfriend are making a joke 95 00:05:04,367 --> 00:05:07,087 Speaker 2: about being demure, like it's just super super quick, and 96 00:05:07,127 --> 00:05:09,487 Speaker 2: then it will be gone again in a day, as 97 00:05:09,527 --> 00:05:12,247 Speaker 2: you say me. So by the time my children get 98 00:05:12,247 --> 00:05:14,807 Speaker 2: home tonight and I asked them about being demure, they 99 00:05:14,847 --> 00:05:17,127 Speaker 2: will think I'm the most embarrassing thing that ever lived. 100 00:05:17,247 --> 00:05:21,287 Speaker 5: And what's hard to is that it's really difficult to 101 00:05:21,367 --> 00:05:23,127 Speaker 5: determine where any of these things start. 102 00:05:23,247 --> 00:05:24,687 Speaker 3: I always want to go back to the start. 103 00:05:24,767 --> 00:05:26,847 Speaker 5: I think it was like Friday night and I was 104 00:05:26,887 --> 00:05:29,807 Speaker 5: in the depths of TikTok, being like, where did demure start? 105 00:05:30,327 --> 00:05:33,167 Speaker 3: Was it a Kardashian thing? It used to be that. 106 00:05:33,207 --> 00:05:35,727 Speaker 5: It was some massive cultural icon who would start a 107 00:05:35,767 --> 00:05:37,687 Speaker 5: trend like jewels. 108 00:05:37,567 --> 00:05:39,647 Speaker 1: Well, like raygun you could see, like the internet was 109 00:05:39,687 --> 00:05:42,647 Speaker 1: doing all these memes and takes on ygun, but you 110 00:05:42,647 --> 00:05:45,127 Speaker 1: could see that was an actual thing that happened, that 111 00:05:45,367 --> 00:05:48,567 Speaker 1: had global significance and everyone could go and see it, 112 00:05:49,167 --> 00:05:51,127 Speaker 1: and it was all just versions of that. But sometimes 113 00:05:51,127 --> 00:05:54,007 Speaker 1: it's like the vernacular where you just don't understand it 114 00:05:54,047 --> 00:05:57,527 Speaker 1: and you always feel like you're just a little bit behind. 115 00:05:57,847 --> 00:06:01,767 Speaker 5: Yeah, look, headline is the three of us not very general, 116 00:06:01,967 --> 00:06:05,207 Speaker 5: not very. 117 00:06:04,407 --> 00:06:09,127 Speaker 1: And the Gold Logi goes to Larry MD. 118 00:06:10,487 --> 00:06:14,287 Speaker 5: Last night was the sixty fourth TV week Logi Awards, 119 00:06:14,407 --> 00:06:17,207 Speaker 5: and Mia Friedman, who was sitting in the front row, 120 00:06:17,367 --> 00:06:22,407 Speaker 5: somehow cried three times and clapped too loudly once. If 121 00:06:22,447 --> 00:06:25,327 Speaker 5: you squinted, you could see her dancing to the John 122 00:06:25,367 --> 00:06:29,287 Speaker 5: Farnham tribute and maybe also darting to the bathroom every 123 00:06:29,327 --> 00:06:33,127 Speaker 5: fifteen minutes, not to do illicit substances, but because her 124 00:06:33,127 --> 00:06:36,847 Speaker 5: bladder can't hold much these days. There's so much to 125 00:06:36,967 --> 00:06:39,247 Speaker 5: unpack and we haven't spoken properly about it yet, so 126 00:06:39,287 --> 00:06:42,167 Speaker 5: we thought we'd do our catch up on the show. Mia, 127 00:06:42,407 --> 00:06:45,967 Speaker 5: Can we please start with what you wore? Was it demure? 128 00:06:46,047 --> 00:06:49,247 Speaker 5: Because everyone saw demure that you threw out and then 129 00:06:49,287 --> 00:06:51,367 Speaker 5: everyone was just sitting there on Instagram being like, oh, 130 00:06:51,407 --> 00:06:53,967 Speaker 5: Maya will post what she's wearing. And then we waited, 131 00:06:53,967 --> 00:06:56,687 Speaker 5: and we waited and we waited, and then Larry Emda 132 00:06:56,847 --> 00:06:59,047 Speaker 5: won a go logan. Wait did she even show up 133 00:06:59,487 --> 00:07:00,047 Speaker 5: the next day? 134 00:07:00,207 --> 00:07:00,487 Speaker 6: Yes? 135 00:07:00,607 --> 00:07:03,687 Speaker 3: Where's your dress? What was it? What do it look like? Please? 136 00:07:03,927 --> 00:07:06,447 Speaker 1: I have a thing where I don't get excited about 137 00:07:06,447 --> 00:07:08,807 Speaker 1: event dressing. I love clothes as our ladders. No, I 138 00:07:08,847 --> 00:07:13,167 Speaker 1: love clothes more than anything, and yet anything red carpet 139 00:07:13,207 --> 00:07:15,047 Speaker 1: it just doesn't feel interesting to me because there's no 140 00:07:15,127 --> 00:07:18,167 Speaker 1: styling involved. It's just like one dress and a shoe, 141 00:07:18,487 --> 00:07:22,447 Speaker 1: which to me is not very creative. So I think 142 00:07:22,487 --> 00:07:25,687 Speaker 1: that's at my heart of complete apathy about. 143 00:07:25,367 --> 00:07:26,247 Speaker 3: These were you not? 144 00:07:26,887 --> 00:07:29,407 Speaker 5: Holly and I were in the depths of panic on 145 00:07:29,447 --> 00:07:32,167 Speaker 5: Sunday morning when we woke up and we saw that 146 00:07:32,327 --> 00:07:35,327 Speaker 5: people were getting their hair and makeup done. They were 147 00:07:35,367 --> 00:07:38,447 Speaker 5: walking down the street in their ballgowns. Sarah Harris looked stunning. 148 00:07:38,527 --> 00:07:41,647 Speaker 5: We saw Laura Byrne and Britt Hockley, they were just 149 00:07:41,767 --> 00:07:43,727 Speaker 5: in these dun downs and we were going, me out 150 00:07:43,807 --> 00:07:46,967 Speaker 5: is woefully unprepared hair, yet. 151 00:07:46,847 --> 00:07:49,407 Speaker 2: It's trying down to get really worried about her when 152 00:07:49,447 --> 00:07:51,807 Speaker 2: it was mid morning on Sunday and I messaged and 153 00:07:51,847 --> 00:07:54,127 Speaker 2: I was like, baby spiraling, spiralingly. 154 00:07:54,127 --> 00:07:57,047 Speaker 1: You could feel it. I wasn't spiraling. 155 00:07:57,487 --> 00:07:59,927 Speaker 2: Two hours away, I could sense it. I'm like, why 156 00:08:00,007 --> 00:08:01,727 Speaker 2: isn't she dressed? What's going on? 157 00:08:02,967 --> 00:08:06,247 Speaker 1: I wasn't spiraling. I just was like not being able 158 00:08:06,287 --> 00:08:09,887 Speaker 1: to summon myself to care, because I mean to say 159 00:08:09,927 --> 00:08:12,407 Speaker 1: that I was a side character last night is a 160 00:08:12,447 --> 00:08:15,567 Speaker 1: gross understatement. I was there because Strife, of which I'm 161 00:08:15,607 --> 00:08:19,167 Speaker 1: an executive producer, was nominated for Best Comedy. I was 162 00:08:19,247 --> 00:08:23,527 Speaker 1: legitimately invited, but I get very intimidated by those things. 163 00:08:23,527 --> 00:08:26,847 Speaker 1: And I until about two hours, three hours before, I 164 00:08:26,927 --> 00:08:29,487 Speaker 1: was still considering not going because I've also been sick, 165 00:08:29,527 --> 00:08:32,087 Speaker 1: and I was just like I could ostensibly get away 166 00:08:32,087 --> 00:08:33,367 Speaker 1: with chucking Asiki. 167 00:08:33,567 --> 00:08:35,927 Speaker 5: I think where you were at on Sunday. I've had 168 00:08:36,007 --> 00:08:38,447 Speaker 5: nightmares about being in that situation. And it's like my 169 00:08:38,527 --> 00:08:40,967 Speaker 5: school formal and all the other girls were getting their 170 00:08:40,967 --> 00:08:43,047 Speaker 5: hair and makeup done, and they had bought really fancy 171 00:08:43,127 --> 00:08:45,247 Speaker 5: dresses and I'd gone with mum, and my dress was 172 00:08:45,287 --> 00:08:46,407 Speaker 5: secondhand and didn't fit. 173 00:08:47,287 --> 00:08:49,207 Speaker 3: That's what I was worried about. 174 00:08:49,247 --> 00:08:50,807 Speaker 5: Well, you're not worried that everyone else was getting their 175 00:08:50,807 --> 00:08:52,927 Speaker 5: hair and makeup professionally done and you had you and 176 00:08:52,967 --> 00:08:53,647 Speaker 5: your ghday. 177 00:08:53,767 --> 00:08:57,167 Speaker 1: Yes no, and then yes no. I was all confident. 178 00:08:57,247 --> 00:09:00,287 Speaker 2: You're confident in your offering, right Maas I. 179 00:09:00,327 --> 00:09:03,447 Speaker 1: Know I would say I'm lazy and I couldn't be bothered. 180 00:09:03,567 --> 00:09:06,087 Speaker 1: So I was offered by Binge a slot at eight 181 00:09:06,207 --> 00:09:08,807 Speaker 1: thirty in the morning, and I was just like, lull, 182 00:09:09,327 --> 00:09:11,327 Speaker 1: it's already going to be a marathon. Can you imagine 183 00:09:11,367 --> 00:09:13,487 Speaker 1: going and getting your hair and makeupsne? I just don't 184 00:09:13,487 --> 00:09:16,967 Speaker 1: care enough. And I also quite like the getting ready part. 185 00:09:17,047 --> 00:09:19,527 Speaker 1: That's actually more of my favorite thing is putting on 186 00:09:19,527 --> 00:09:22,047 Speaker 1: the makeup. I'm not very good at putting on a 187 00:09:22,047 --> 00:09:24,007 Speaker 1: lot of makeup, but I always just like to look 188 00:09:24,087 --> 00:09:25,567 Speaker 1: like myself, and I feel like when you get your 189 00:09:25,607 --> 00:09:27,407 Speaker 1: hair and makeup done, you've got to make a lot 190 00:09:27,407 --> 00:09:29,807 Speaker 1: of small talk. And also I just don't ever quite 191 00:09:29,807 --> 00:09:34,527 Speaker 1: feel like myself anyway. Bloody, first world, lovely problems. So 192 00:09:34,607 --> 00:09:37,247 Speaker 1: I also knew that I had a number of things 193 00:09:37,287 --> 00:09:39,967 Speaker 1: in my wardrobe because I wear kind of things that 194 00:09:40,007 --> 00:09:42,327 Speaker 1: most people might wear to on a red carpet, like 195 00:09:42,407 --> 00:09:45,287 Speaker 1: just to work on a Tuesday, right, So it's not 196 00:09:45,367 --> 00:09:47,367 Speaker 1: like I was like, oh, I don't have anything fancy. 197 00:09:47,367 --> 00:09:51,127 Speaker 1: I've got so much fancy stuff, and so I knew 198 00:09:51,207 --> 00:09:53,727 Speaker 1: that what I wanted to wear was probably in there, 199 00:09:53,807 --> 00:09:56,847 Speaker 1: and if it wasn't, that was kind of exciting because 200 00:09:56,887 --> 00:09:59,847 Speaker 1: I'd have to make it work. You're looking horrified. 201 00:10:00,207 --> 00:10:02,287 Speaker 5: I am, Okay, tell us what you chose, because I saw, 202 00:10:02,327 --> 00:10:04,407 Speaker 5: I actually liked of all your options that you shared 203 00:10:04,447 --> 00:10:06,447 Speaker 5: on Instagram, you had a few suit options, you had 204 00:10:06,447 --> 00:10:08,767 Speaker 5: your bratsuit, and I went, that's kind of cool, because 205 00:10:09,567 --> 00:10:11,127 Speaker 5: but then what did you choose? 206 00:10:11,167 --> 00:10:11,967 Speaker 3: Please tell us? 207 00:10:12,007 --> 00:10:14,247 Speaker 1: Okay, was it something you know quite well? Because I 208 00:10:14,287 --> 00:10:15,407 Speaker 1: wore it to your wedding, so. 209 00:10:15,447 --> 00:10:17,527 Speaker 3: I knew you'd wear the dress. Yeah. 210 00:10:17,567 --> 00:10:19,647 Speaker 1: So there's a good story behind this because I bought 211 00:10:20,167 --> 00:10:24,527 Speaker 1: this skirt from a lady startup called Jumbled, which is 212 00:10:24,727 --> 00:10:27,487 Speaker 1: a brilliant boutique in Orange, and we were there for 213 00:10:27,527 --> 00:10:29,727 Speaker 1: a show quite a few years ago, maybe three years ago. 214 00:10:29,927 --> 00:10:32,847 Speaker 1: Time is slippery to me. But and then I really 215 00:10:32,927 --> 00:10:35,247 Speaker 1: liked it. It was kind of sequined, but muted sequined, 216 00:10:35,247 --> 00:10:37,687 Speaker 1: if that makes sense. And so then I went online 217 00:10:37,687 --> 00:10:40,407 Speaker 1: and found a matching top, but the top was like 218 00:10:40,927 --> 00:10:44,087 Speaker 1: a bit cropped, so I wasn't gonna wear a crop top. 219 00:10:44,207 --> 00:10:46,887 Speaker 1: And this was years ago. And so then for your wedding, Jesse, 220 00:10:47,007 --> 00:10:48,527 Speaker 1: when I went through a similar thing and tried on 221 00:10:48,567 --> 00:10:51,527 Speaker 1: eight billion dresses, I took the top and the skirt 222 00:10:51,567 --> 00:10:54,887 Speaker 1: to my alterationist. Is anyone still listening? This is so boring. 223 00:10:55,487 --> 00:10:57,647 Speaker 1: I took it to my alterationist and got her to 224 00:10:57,687 --> 00:11:01,087 Speaker 1: turn it into just one dress, and so I had that, 225 00:11:01,367 --> 00:11:03,647 Speaker 1: and I tried on a bunch of stuff, and in 226 00:11:03,687 --> 00:11:06,087 Speaker 1: the end that worked for the same reason that it 227 00:11:06,167 --> 00:11:08,887 Speaker 1: worked for your wedding, because it was me in that 228 00:11:08,967 --> 00:11:12,847 Speaker 1: it was. It was fancier than I'd usually wear because 229 00:11:12,887 --> 00:11:15,367 Speaker 1: it was like a dress, and yet it was like 230 00:11:15,607 --> 00:11:18,567 Speaker 1: muted sequence. It didn't feel attention grabby. 231 00:11:18,767 --> 00:11:21,527 Speaker 2: The thing that's interesting about this whole thing, and we 232 00:11:21,607 --> 00:11:23,407 Speaker 2: have to find out if there was anything fun about 233 00:11:23,407 --> 00:11:26,247 Speaker 2: the logis is that this kind of stuff is your 234 00:11:26,247 --> 00:11:28,887 Speaker 2: worst nightmare. You have anxiety around going to these kind 235 00:11:28,887 --> 00:11:31,007 Speaker 2: of big social things, don't you. I want to give 236 00:11:31,047 --> 00:11:33,447 Speaker 2: some context that when I used to work at TV Week, 237 00:11:33,527 --> 00:11:36,567 Speaker 2: who obviously organize the logis it's a big thing. Some 238 00:11:36,687 --> 00:11:40,487 Speaker 2: people are so desperate to go to that event. I 239 00:11:40,567 --> 00:11:43,727 Speaker 2: remember the year I was working at TV week one 240 00:11:44,207 --> 00:11:47,367 Speaker 2: down the list. Celebrity was so desperate for a ticket 241 00:11:47,447 --> 00:11:49,727 Speaker 2: and the editor was like, no, you can't have a ticket. 242 00:11:49,767 --> 00:11:52,367 Speaker 2: Were full that She said, if I shaved my head, 243 00:11:52,527 --> 00:11:53,167 Speaker 2: can I come? 244 00:11:53,287 --> 00:11:53,767 Speaker 3: Oh wow? 245 00:11:53,807 --> 00:11:56,727 Speaker 2: And the editor said yes and she did. That is 246 00:11:56,767 --> 00:11:59,007 Speaker 2: how desperate some people are to be on that red 247 00:11:59,007 --> 00:12:03,247 Speaker 2: carpet because it's about and probably less so now, but 248 00:12:03,287 --> 00:12:05,527 Speaker 2: it's the attention economy, right, And if you're trying to 249 00:12:05,527 --> 00:12:08,047 Speaker 2: get somewhere, if you're trying to be noticed, if you're 250 00:12:08,087 --> 00:12:10,247 Speaker 2: trying to meet the right people, it's a really big deal. 251 00:12:10,527 --> 00:12:12,927 Speaker 2: But all of that kind of stuff, that networking kind 252 00:12:12,967 --> 00:12:15,327 Speaker 2: of stuff is your worst nightmare, right manea. But had 253 00:12:15,327 --> 00:12:19,167 Speaker 2: a thing fun about being there, do you know what? 254 00:12:19,247 --> 00:12:21,727 Speaker 1: I had a really fun time, apart from the fact 255 00:12:21,767 --> 00:12:23,727 Speaker 1: that it was so long. It was like being on 256 00:12:23,767 --> 00:12:24,887 Speaker 1: a long haul flight. 257 00:12:25,327 --> 00:12:27,127 Speaker 2: Why but then you got off. 258 00:12:26,927 --> 00:12:30,207 Speaker 1: And you were still in the same place. I don't know. 259 00:12:30,287 --> 00:12:32,047 Speaker 1: But by the time we sat down. So some people, 260 00:12:32,087 --> 00:12:34,527 Speaker 1: who do they talk to kateline Brook she just had 261 00:12:34,567 --> 00:12:37,327 Speaker 1: to do three hours on the red carpet. It was 262 00:12:37,367 --> 00:12:39,287 Speaker 1: funny because we walked up and down the red carpet. 263 00:12:39,287 --> 00:12:40,727 Speaker 1: Brunner and I It looked like we were trying to 264 00:12:40,727 --> 00:12:42,367 Speaker 1: get interviewed, but we were just looking for the mum 265 00:12:42,367 --> 00:12:44,687 Speaker 1: and mea people who were interviewing people in the red 266 00:12:44,727 --> 00:12:45,967 Speaker 1: carp We thought, we've got to talk to them. We 267 00:12:45,967 --> 00:12:48,247 Speaker 1: couldn't find them, so it looked like we were doing 268 00:12:48,247 --> 00:12:51,367 Speaker 1: desperate laps. We eventually found them how to chat with them, 269 00:12:51,407 --> 00:12:53,487 Speaker 1: how to chat to news dot com who made us 270 00:12:53,527 --> 00:12:57,087 Speaker 1: read at Tongue Twister. You know, everyone needs their content right, 271 00:12:57,927 --> 00:13:00,407 Speaker 1: And it was just quite surreal, like it was very intense. 272 00:13:00,447 --> 00:13:02,167 Speaker 1: And then you go inside and it's just like a 273 00:13:02,167 --> 00:13:04,007 Speaker 1: ballroom if you've ever been to any kind of black 274 00:13:04,047 --> 00:13:06,687 Speaker 1: tie thing, and you sit down, but then it was 275 00:13:06,767 --> 00:13:10,207 Speaker 1: two hours until the ceremony started. It fed us, which 276 00:13:10,207 --> 00:13:11,327 Speaker 1: is good because we sat down up. 277 00:13:11,247 --> 00:13:12,767 Speaker 2: For nice food. 278 00:13:13,647 --> 00:13:17,447 Speaker 1: Bruna pap Andrea, who is the main producer of Strife 279 00:13:17,727 --> 00:13:20,687 Speaker 1: and the producer of everything Big Little Eyes and you know, 280 00:13:20,807 --> 00:13:23,287 Speaker 1: she's big time. She's one Golden Globes and Emmy's and 281 00:13:23,287 --> 00:13:24,847 Speaker 1: all of those things. She's been to all of those 282 00:13:24,887 --> 00:13:27,367 Speaker 1: awards ceremonies. She said it was the best food of 283 00:13:27,407 --> 00:13:29,007 Speaker 1: any awards ceremony she's ever been to. 284 00:13:29,247 --> 00:13:30,327 Speaker 3: Was she just being polite? 285 00:13:30,727 --> 00:13:33,727 Speaker 1: No, she was so into it. It was really funny. 286 00:13:33,807 --> 00:13:36,807 Speaker 1: So the other shock was that we were not just 287 00:13:36,887 --> 00:13:38,967 Speaker 1: in the front row of tables, but in the front 288 00:13:39,047 --> 00:13:41,367 Speaker 1: row in the middle of the table, so we were 289 00:13:41,407 --> 00:13:45,247 Speaker 1: practically directly in front of where the people were on. 290 00:13:45,287 --> 00:13:47,007 Speaker 2: That because Asha Keddy was on your table. 291 00:13:47,087 --> 00:13:49,447 Speaker 1: Correct, it wasn't because of my dress. So we were 292 00:13:49,567 --> 00:13:51,207 Speaker 1: on the table with Asher and so she was a 293 00:13:51,247 --> 00:13:53,767 Speaker 1: Gold LOGI nominee, so she's a big deal. And that 294 00:13:53,927 --> 00:13:55,727 Speaker 1: was really interesting too because I've been to the Logis 295 00:13:55,767 --> 00:13:57,647 Speaker 1: one time before, but I was like in the absolute 296 00:13:57,727 --> 00:13:59,887 Speaker 1: bleaches and I was, you know, not really part of 297 00:13:59,927 --> 00:14:01,607 Speaker 1: it at all. It was when I was doing a 298 00:14:01,647 --> 00:14:03,447 Speaker 1: bit of work for the Today Show, so I just 299 00:14:03,527 --> 00:14:05,327 Speaker 1: felt like I was on someone else's ride, which I 300 00:14:05,367 --> 00:14:08,047 Speaker 1: absolutely was. We had a really funny table. It was 301 00:14:08,047 --> 00:14:13,567 Speaker 1: like me Bruna Ash's husband, Alex Demitriardi's Emma Lung Matt Day, 302 00:14:14,207 --> 00:14:16,847 Speaker 1: whose wife is the EP of sixty Minutes and she 303 00:14:17,047 --> 00:14:18,847 Speaker 1: actually won a LOGI I saw that. 304 00:14:19,047 --> 00:14:21,367 Speaker 5: Yeah, So it was just it was a lovely and 305 00:14:21,767 --> 00:14:24,087 Speaker 5: what outfits did you like as someone who was there? 306 00:14:24,167 --> 00:14:25,447 Speaker 3: Like what stood out to you all? 307 00:14:25,607 --> 00:14:25,727 Speaker 7: Right? 308 00:14:26,247 --> 00:14:29,047 Speaker 1: Like there were so many great looks. There was one 309 00:14:29,047 --> 00:14:31,167 Speaker 1: person who was a publicist for Channel nine who I 310 00:14:31,247 --> 00:14:33,767 Speaker 1: just loved her dress. It was like I went and 311 00:14:33,807 --> 00:14:36,247 Speaker 1: tried to buy it. It was from the curve range 312 00:14:36,647 --> 00:14:38,927 Speaker 1: that aesos do and it was just like head to 313 00:14:38,927 --> 00:14:41,607 Speaker 1: toe bright blue sequence and just like she just looked 314 00:14:41,647 --> 00:14:45,767 Speaker 1: so comfortable, and she was wearing like matching glittery blue trainers. 315 00:14:46,287 --> 00:14:49,887 Speaker 1: But you know, like Sonya Krueger always looks incredible. I mean, 316 00:14:50,167 --> 00:14:54,087 Speaker 1: everyone just tried hard, which was so lovely. Julia Morris 317 00:14:54,087 --> 00:14:57,247 Speaker 1: looked beautiful, she was in this huge gown. Kate Langbrook 318 00:14:57,287 --> 00:15:01,087 Speaker 1: looked phenomenal. Lisa McCune's gown was beautiful. I only saw 319 00:15:01,087 --> 00:15:03,487 Speaker 1: her at the end when she was giving the Gold Low. 320 00:15:03,927 --> 00:15:05,767 Speaker 1: And there were lots of people that you just don't know, 321 00:15:06,287 --> 00:15:08,447 Speaker 1: you know, because a lot of shows were nominated, and 322 00:15:08,527 --> 00:15:10,607 Speaker 1: there was the crew and the cast from all of 323 00:15:10,647 --> 00:15:12,727 Speaker 1: those shows, so a lot of behind the scenes people 324 00:15:12,727 --> 00:15:16,567 Speaker 1: were there looking just stunning, like people went to so 325 00:15:16,727 --> 00:15:19,247 Speaker 1: much effort and that was just interesting to look at. 326 00:15:19,567 --> 00:15:22,287 Speaker 1: And then the other highlight was the John Farnham tribute 327 00:15:22,327 --> 00:15:25,727 Speaker 1: with Guys Sebastian and Jessica Mawboy that was so beautiful. 328 00:15:27,527 --> 00:15:39,527 Speaker 2: Were on and I cried lots. 329 00:15:39,567 --> 00:15:41,287 Speaker 1: I didn't expect to cry, but there were lots of 330 00:15:41,287 --> 00:15:44,967 Speaker 1: speeches that men made and boys made about mothers and 331 00:15:45,007 --> 00:15:47,607 Speaker 1: about their mothers. And that fifteen year old guy that 332 00:15:47,647 --> 00:15:50,767 Speaker 1: won the two big awards, the way he spoke about 333 00:15:50,807 --> 00:15:52,207 Speaker 1: his parents and how he cried. 334 00:15:52,367 --> 00:15:55,327 Speaker 7: I'd love to thank my friend's family, my brother and 335 00:15:55,367 --> 00:16:11,127 Speaker 7: my sister, and my mom and dad, and I love 336 00:16:11,207 --> 00:16:13,207 Speaker 7: to thank my drum turg Ninia Townsend. 337 00:16:13,807 --> 00:16:14,807 Speaker 3: Couldn't die it without you. 338 00:16:19,167 --> 00:16:22,207 Speaker 1: I always find it when people are emotional, it's hard 339 00:16:22,247 --> 00:16:24,087 Speaker 1: not to be emotional back. Like it's easy to sit 340 00:16:24,127 --> 00:16:26,487 Speaker 1: at home and be really cynical about the logis and 341 00:16:26,527 --> 00:16:29,127 Speaker 1: I've done that every single year, but when you're actually 342 00:16:29,127 --> 00:16:33,367 Speaker 1: in the room, it's very moving. Like the amount that 343 00:16:33,407 --> 00:16:36,927 Speaker 1: people care to be nominated or to win, like Rebecca 344 00:16:36,967 --> 00:16:40,967 Speaker 1: Gibney was stunning, like Amda was really moving. What Trent 345 00:16:41,047 --> 00:16:42,967 Speaker 1: Dalton said about the mums watching at. 346 00:16:42,807 --> 00:16:45,767 Speaker 6: Home, I just want to send a shout out to 347 00:16:45,967 --> 00:16:48,847 Speaker 6: all the mums who are a bit like Frankie Bell 348 00:16:49,287 --> 00:16:53,607 Speaker 6: and they're out in the suburbs tonight and they're feeling 349 00:16:53,607 --> 00:16:57,167 Speaker 6: a bit lost in the darkness, and I just want 350 00:16:57,207 --> 00:17:00,647 Speaker 6: to tell you, like, please believe me when I say 351 00:17:01,367 --> 00:17:04,447 Speaker 6: that when your children look at you in the darkness, 352 00:17:05,487 --> 00:17:07,207 Speaker 6: all they see is your light. 353 00:17:07,767 --> 00:17:09,927 Speaker 1: There was a lot of stuff that was just beautiful. 354 00:17:10,247 --> 00:17:12,647 Speaker 2: I cried all those things on the couch, so I'm 355 00:17:12,647 --> 00:17:14,527 Speaker 2: not at all surprised that you were a puddle. I 356 00:17:14,567 --> 00:17:17,327 Speaker 2: were like, they were really lovely. I wanted to ask you, though. 357 00:17:17,327 --> 00:17:19,927 Speaker 2: One thing I always wonder about the room is so 358 00:17:20,007 --> 00:17:23,167 Speaker 2: Sam Pang was the host, and he is quite roasty, 359 00:17:23,327 --> 00:17:25,007 Speaker 2: and this is the second year he's done it, which 360 00:17:25,047 --> 00:17:26,767 Speaker 2: means he must be good at it, right, because it's 361 00:17:27,207 --> 00:17:29,767 Speaker 2: hosting any awards show is the job that nobody wants, 362 00:17:29,767 --> 00:17:32,367 Speaker 2: apparently because you get so slammed for it. But he 363 00:17:32,407 --> 00:17:35,007 Speaker 2: gets up and he does the roasts in the room. 364 00:17:35,287 --> 00:17:36,167 Speaker 2: Does that go down? 365 00:17:36,207 --> 00:17:36,487 Speaker 1: Okay? 366 00:17:36,527 --> 00:17:38,607 Speaker 2: Because I've read commentary before that says one of the 367 00:17:38,647 --> 00:17:41,887 Speaker 2: reasons why awards show hosting is so hard is you've 368 00:17:41,927 --> 00:17:44,127 Speaker 2: got to offend all the people who are right there 369 00:17:44,167 --> 00:17:46,167 Speaker 2: to appease the people at home who want to feel 370 00:17:46,167 --> 00:17:47,207 Speaker 2: good about not being there. 371 00:17:47,247 --> 00:17:50,447 Speaker 1: That's so true. And he nailed it, and the room 372 00:17:50,567 --> 00:17:52,887 Speaker 1: laughed and they were with him, I think because his 373 00:17:53,087 --> 00:17:56,927 Speaker 1: jokes felt pointed, but they didn't feel mean, and so 374 00:17:57,047 --> 00:18:00,687 Speaker 1: the people that he was most funny about, like Andy 375 00:18:00,767 --> 00:18:03,487 Speaker 1: Lee making jokes about Habish and doctor Chris Brown making 376 00:18:03,567 --> 00:18:05,847 Speaker 1: jokes about Robert Owen getting his job and then being 377 00:18:05,887 --> 00:18:08,327 Speaker 1: nominated for Gold. A lot of them were his friends 378 00:18:08,887 --> 00:18:11,207 Speaker 1: and so they're fun. They're you know, comedians, a lot 379 00:18:11,207 --> 00:18:14,127 Speaker 1: of them. So I remember Asha said, oh, I feel 380 00:18:14,167 --> 00:18:16,007 Speaker 1: like Sam was too easy on me. That can't be 381 00:18:16,047 --> 00:18:17,887 Speaker 1: the end of it. You know, she didn't. He didn't 382 00:18:17,927 --> 00:18:20,887 Speaker 1: take me out, So I think it didn't ever feel 383 00:18:21,167 --> 00:18:22,927 Speaker 1: like he was punching down. It felt more like he 384 00:18:22,967 --> 00:18:25,287 Speaker 1: was punching up. He punched up at the networks a lot, 385 00:18:25,487 --> 00:18:28,807 Speaker 1: which everybody really laughed at the room was very much 386 00:18:28,807 --> 00:18:29,327 Speaker 1: with Sam. 387 00:18:29,487 --> 00:18:31,967 Speaker 5: We should probably ask as well, you were nominated, strife 388 00:18:31,967 --> 00:18:33,047 Speaker 5: was nominated. 389 00:18:32,607 --> 00:18:33,767 Speaker 1: We did not win. 390 00:18:34,087 --> 00:18:35,127 Speaker 3: Okay, you didn't win. 391 00:18:35,487 --> 00:18:38,927 Speaker 5: How do you feel about that? Because we are closet competitive? 392 00:18:39,087 --> 00:18:40,647 Speaker 5: But how did it feel to lose? 393 00:18:40,687 --> 00:18:43,367 Speaker 1: A LOGI it never feels good to lose anything. Like 394 00:18:43,407 --> 00:18:46,367 Speaker 1: everybody says they don't care until they win, and then 395 00:18:46,367 --> 00:18:48,567 Speaker 1: they care a lot. Yeah, Like that was what was 396 00:18:48,567 --> 00:18:50,407 Speaker 1: so lovely about when debraah Mammon got up and she 397 00:18:50,487 --> 00:18:53,647 Speaker 1: won Best Lead Actress in a Drama for Total Control 398 00:18:53,767 --> 00:18:55,927 Speaker 1: and that wasn't expected that she would win that, and 399 00:18:55,967 --> 00:18:58,767 Speaker 1: she got up and she just said, I really wanted this, 400 00:18:59,047 --> 00:19:02,607 Speaker 1: And everyone in the room really like laughed in a 401 00:19:02,647 --> 00:19:06,207 Speaker 1: sense of we get it because she said, what you 402 00:19:06,287 --> 00:19:08,087 Speaker 1: meant to be so cool and be like, oh, I 403 00:19:08,247 --> 00:19:10,967 Speaker 1: was fine, it's whatever. But everybody in the room really 404 00:19:10,967 --> 00:19:11,447 Speaker 1: wants to win. 405 00:19:11,527 --> 00:19:12,647 Speaker 3: Like everybody wants to win. 406 00:19:12,687 --> 00:19:13,527 Speaker 1: Who doesn't want to win? 407 00:19:13,807 --> 00:19:17,167 Speaker 5: I am incredibly competitive. But when I saw that we 408 00:19:17,167 --> 00:19:20,007 Speaker 5: were beaten by Utopia, I could sleep. I could sleep 409 00:19:20,007 --> 00:19:22,367 Speaker 5: at night. Yes, I do love Utopia. I think it's 410 00:19:22,367 --> 00:19:25,847 Speaker 5: a great show. We're going to be beaten Utopia, I accept. 411 00:19:26,007 --> 00:19:28,327 Speaker 1: And that was their last season, so and we were 412 00:19:28,367 --> 00:19:30,567 Speaker 1: also saying, look, it was our first season of strife 413 00:19:30,727 --> 00:19:32,567 Speaker 1: in the starting to in the middle of making our 414 00:19:32,607 --> 00:19:36,087 Speaker 1: second season. Maybe by the time we've got third or 415 00:19:36,087 --> 00:19:38,887 Speaker 1: fourth or fifth or sixth seasons, sometimes it takes a 416 00:19:38,927 --> 00:19:40,407 Speaker 1: while to gain that momentum. 417 00:19:40,447 --> 00:19:42,287 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the first time it's occurred to me that 418 00:19:42,327 --> 00:19:44,327 Speaker 2: you're going to have to go to the logis every year. 419 00:19:46,287 --> 00:19:48,567 Speaker 1: That hasn't occurred to me that as long as we're nominated. 420 00:19:49,087 --> 00:19:52,167 Speaker 2: Okay, out louders, if you've got more questions for Mia 421 00:19:52,207 --> 00:19:55,087 Speaker 2: about her big night at the Logis or anything Logis related. 422 00:19:55,527 --> 00:19:57,607 Speaker 2: Jump in the Outlauders Facebook group and ask them now, 423 00:19:57,647 --> 00:20:00,647 Speaker 2: because we're going to be recording a special subscribers episode 424 00:20:00,727 --> 00:20:03,407 Speaker 2: all about the Logis for those who still haven't got 425 00:20:03,487 --> 00:20:06,367 Speaker 2: enough of me A's debilitating wardrobe. 426 00:20:06,407 --> 00:20:09,167 Speaker 3: My time going to be this Guss. If you want goss, 427 00:20:09,327 --> 00:20:10,007 Speaker 3: That's what I'm. 428 00:20:09,927 --> 00:20:11,207 Speaker 5: Going to be asking about. I need to know who 429 00:20:11,247 --> 00:20:13,567 Speaker 5: you talk to, I need to know precisely what you ate. 430 00:20:13,687 --> 00:20:14,847 Speaker 5: And the other thing is the. 431 00:20:14,807 --> 00:20:18,887 Speaker 1: Poet doing drugs in the toilet. 432 00:20:19,047 --> 00:20:20,687 Speaker 5: Yeah, you're going to be telling us about that in 433 00:20:20,727 --> 00:20:28,007 Speaker 5: tomorrow subscriber episode. 434 00:20:28,647 --> 00:20:30,287 Speaker 1: In the same way that the Internet has a new 435 00:20:30,367 --> 00:20:32,807 Speaker 1: joke every week, as we discussed at the top of 436 00:20:32,847 --> 00:20:35,567 Speaker 1: the show, it can also feel like every week the 437 00:20:35,647 --> 00:20:40,047 Speaker 1: Internet chooses someone, almost always a woman to pylon, and 438 00:20:40,087 --> 00:20:43,607 Speaker 1: the force of that can totally dominate the culture, well, 439 00:20:43,687 --> 00:20:46,367 Speaker 1: certainly the media and social media. A few weeks ago 440 00:20:46,407 --> 00:20:48,607 Speaker 1: it was j Loo, and last week it was Raygun, 441 00:20:48,687 --> 00:20:51,407 Speaker 1: and this week it's Blake Lively, who has a new 442 00:20:51,447 --> 00:20:53,807 Speaker 1: movie out called It Ends with Us that we spoke 443 00:20:53,847 --> 00:20:57,127 Speaker 1: about on last week's show. And in the same way 444 00:20:57,127 --> 00:21:00,567 Speaker 1: that the demure jokes and means can be really hard 445 00:21:00,567 --> 00:21:03,167 Speaker 1: to understand. It can also be hard to understand the 446 00:21:03,247 --> 00:21:07,287 Speaker 1: source of the intense hatred and criticism that engulfs these 447 00:21:07,327 --> 00:21:09,727 Speaker 1: people at the center of these storms. You can find 448 00:21:09,727 --> 00:21:13,527 Speaker 1: yourself wondering, but what actually did she do? Because there 449 00:21:13,567 --> 00:21:17,207 Speaker 1: is so much noise that the storm itself becomes the story. 450 00:21:17,327 --> 00:21:20,487 Speaker 1: And so it is with Blake Lively. This week you 451 00:21:20,567 --> 00:21:23,527 Speaker 1: may have seen her being roasted everywhere, but particularly on 452 00:21:23,647 --> 00:21:25,927 Speaker 1: social media, where she is the villain of the week 453 00:21:26,487 --> 00:21:29,767 Speaker 1: in a huge way. Now, it's important to note that 454 00:21:29,807 --> 00:21:32,487 Speaker 1: we don't like to participate in these pylons or in 455 00:21:32,567 --> 00:21:35,807 Speaker 1: cancel culture, but what we do do on this show 456 00:21:35,927 --> 00:21:38,487 Speaker 1: is to try and get some perspective about what's really 457 00:21:38,527 --> 00:21:40,807 Speaker 1: going on so that we can understand the biggest issue, 458 00:21:41,207 --> 00:21:45,207 Speaker 1: why are people so mad with Blake Lively. So the 459 00:21:45,247 --> 00:21:48,647 Speaker 1: criticism initially came with some drama between Lively and the 460 00:21:48,647 --> 00:21:52,607 Speaker 1: director and co star Justin Baldoni of this movie, but 461 00:21:52,687 --> 00:21:55,207 Speaker 1: since we last discussed it, the tide has seemed to 462 00:21:55,247 --> 00:21:59,767 Speaker 1: turn from criticism for the film's marketing and potentially of 463 00:21:59,887 --> 00:22:04,647 Speaker 1: Justin Baldoni, to a direct attack on Blake. The film 464 00:22:04,647 --> 00:22:07,727 Speaker 1: has so far brought in one hundred million dollars US 465 00:22:08,007 --> 00:22:10,847 Speaker 1: around the world, so people are going to see it, 466 00:22:11,487 --> 00:22:15,527 Speaker 1: and Justin Baldoni has reportedly hired a crisis pr manager. 467 00:22:16,087 --> 00:22:19,967 Speaker 1: Now this bit is important, Melissa Nathan, who specializes in 468 00:22:20,007 --> 00:22:25,407 Speaker 1: publicity and reputation management. She previously represented Johnny Depp during 469 00:22:25,487 --> 00:22:29,487 Speaker 1: the Amber Herd trial, and the shift in the perception 470 00:22:29,567 --> 00:22:33,887 Speaker 1: of Blake Lively has really turned the algorithm on TikTok 471 00:22:34,047 --> 00:22:39,007 Speaker 1: and another social media against her. The criticism is directed 472 00:22:39,047 --> 00:22:41,527 Speaker 1: at the way she's chosen to market the film, people 473 00:22:41,567 --> 00:22:44,487 Speaker 1: saying she's been too glib and chatty, and her outfits 474 00:22:44,487 --> 00:22:46,407 Speaker 1: have been too cheery given that the theme of the 475 00:22:46,407 --> 00:22:50,927 Speaker 1: film is about domestic violence. And then over the weekend, mysteriously, 476 00:22:51,407 --> 00:22:57,407 Speaker 1: seemingly randomly, an interview from twenty sixteen resurfaced by a 477 00:22:57,767 --> 00:23:01,327 Speaker 1: journalist who said it was the interview that made her 478 00:23:01,487 --> 00:23:04,327 Speaker 1: want to quit her job. Here's a little bit of 479 00:23:04,407 --> 00:23:05,127 Speaker 1: that interview. 480 00:23:05,407 --> 00:23:08,807 Speaker 3: First of all, congrats on your little bomb. Congrats on 481 00:23:08,847 --> 00:23:11,567 Speaker 3: your little What about my bum. 482 00:23:14,047 --> 00:23:18,087 Speaker 7: We've got two nice ones and they are kind of bumps. 483 00:23:18,367 --> 00:23:21,967 Speaker 7: They no not bumps. The Lovely Lady lumps. 484 00:23:22,047 --> 00:23:25,087 Speaker 5: To context for that interview is that Blake Lively had 485 00:23:25,127 --> 00:23:29,007 Speaker 5: publicly announced her pregnancy beforehand, and when she sat down, 486 00:23:29,047 --> 00:23:32,647 Speaker 5: the interviewer said congratulations, and then she said congratulations on 487 00:23:32,687 --> 00:23:37,167 Speaker 5: your bump. To clarify the interviewer was not pregnant. It 488 00:23:37,287 --> 00:23:40,847 Speaker 5: was a strange way to react. And then the interviewer 489 00:23:40,887 --> 00:23:45,167 Speaker 5: asked a question about costuming and what they wore, and 490 00:23:45,207 --> 00:23:47,687 Speaker 5: Blake sort of said, oh, would you ask a man 491 00:23:47,767 --> 00:23:50,167 Speaker 5: what he wore. There was something quite off in the 492 00:23:50,247 --> 00:23:53,847 Speaker 5: dynamics of the interview, and even I thought Posey Parker, 493 00:23:53,887 --> 00:23:57,967 Speaker 5: who was beside her, was doing her best to try 494 00:23:58,007 --> 00:24:02,927 Speaker 5: and keep all parties happy. That interview is uncomfortable. 495 00:24:03,047 --> 00:24:06,807 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's cringe to watch, but often those junkets, press 496 00:24:06,847 --> 00:24:10,767 Speaker 1: junkets can be really awkward because because the stars are exhausted, 497 00:24:10,807 --> 00:24:13,287 Speaker 1: they're they're having to see maybe fifty people in a 498 00:24:13,367 --> 00:24:15,687 Speaker 1: day from all around the world an answer the same questions. 499 00:24:16,047 --> 00:24:18,967 Speaker 1: So clearly she was she was over it. I agree, 500 00:24:18,967 --> 00:24:22,447 Speaker 1: and she was a bit snarky, but you know, yeah. 501 00:24:22,047 --> 00:24:25,007 Speaker 5: And look, I see both sides, right, because yes, you 502 00:24:25,087 --> 00:24:26,927 Speaker 5: have to sit there and rumin answer questions about the 503 00:24:26,927 --> 00:24:29,007 Speaker 5: film you made to fifty people. I would hate to 504 00:24:29,047 --> 00:24:31,887 Speaker 5: do it. It's not that hard to be polite like, 505 00:24:32,007 --> 00:24:33,647 Speaker 5: that's part of the job, right, You get paid a 506 00:24:33,687 --> 00:24:36,807 Speaker 5: lot of money to be nice to people on camera. 507 00:24:36,887 --> 00:24:39,167 Speaker 5: There's a camera there, so I agree with that. 508 00:24:39,207 --> 00:24:41,167 Speaker 1: But at the same time, that woman saying this made 509 00:24:41,207 --> 00:24:42,727 Speaker 1: me want to quit my job, like that was just 510 00:24:42,767 --> 00:24:49,287 Speaker 1: a shameless grab for relevance and attention and follows. 511 00:24:49,447 --> 00:24:52,647 Speaker 5: Initially I thought when this video was published and it 512 00:24:52,687 --> 00:24:54,567 Speaker 5: started doing the rounds on YouTube, and then it got 513 00:24:54,607 --> 00:24:58,247 Speaker 5: picked up on TikTok very quickly, I thought, oh, this 514 00:24:58,287 --> 00:24:59,487 Speaker 5: is a Dustin Baldoni move. 515 00:24:59,567 --> 00:25:00,807 Speaker 3: This has been from camp. 516 00:25:01,007 --> 00:25:06,087 Speaker 5: This PR team has gone through the archives and unearthed it. 517 00:25:06,487 --> 00:25:08,687 Speaker 5: And then I actually listened to an interview with the 518 00:25:08,767 --> 00:25:11,807 Speaker 5: journalist who said, that's not what happened. She had seen 519 00:25:11,847 --> 00:25:13,647 Speaker 5: a bit of commentary about that it ends with us 520 00:25:13,767 --> 00:25:16,647 Speaker 5: pressed to her, and she thought, I'm going to share 521 00:25:16,647 --> 00:25:18,687 Speaker 5: this interview I did with Blake Lively. So it seems 522 00:25:18,727 --> 00:25:21,247 Speaker 5: it was organically shared by the journalists who had never 523 00:25:21,247 --> 00:25:22,087 Speaker 5: published it before. 524 00:25:22,167 --> 00:25:25,767 Speaker 2: Well, and also, when you're a journalist and you interview 525 00:25:25,887 --> 00:25:30,127 Speaker 2: famous people, and sometimes those famous people, it doesn't go 526 00:25:30,247 --> 00:25:32,567 Speaker 2: exactly how it did in your head, which is she's 527 00:25:32,607 --> 00:25:35,247 Speaker 2: gonna love me and it's going to be great and 528 00:25:35,287 --> 00:25:36,967 Speaker 2: I'm going to make this joke and she's going to 529 00:25:37,047 --> 00:25:39,487 Speaker 2: laugh so hard. Like a lot of journalists, most of 530 00:25:39,567 --> 00:25:42,447 Speaker 2: us actually have a story like that where the connection 531 00:25:42,727 --> 00:25:45,807 Speaker 2: was somehow disjointed for all the reasons that Mia said before, 532 00:25:46,207 --> 00:25:49,487 Speaker 2: but also they just weren't up for playing that gag 533 00:25:49,567 --> 00:25:52,487 Speaker 2: a million times. And clearly it seems in that instance 534 00:25:53,007 --> 00:25:56,487 Speaker 2: Blake Lively was very and she's always been very boundaried 535 00:25:56,527 --> 00:25:59,847 Speaker 2: about talking about her private life, and clearly she was like, 536 00:25:59,887 --> 00:26:01,327 Speaker 2: I don't want to talk about bumps. I don't want 537 00:26:01,327 --> 00:26:03,327 Speaker 2: to talk about fashion. She was like in one of 538 00:26:03,367 --> 00:26:06,607 Speaker 2: those take me seriously moods, and it came across very 539 00:26:06,607 --> 00:26:08,967 Speaker 2: strongly right. And if I was the journal I know 540 00:26:09,367 --> 00:26:11,687 Speaker 2: knows who've held grudges against celebrities who are route to 541 00:26:11,727 --> 00:26:14,047 Speaker 2: them in interviews. Yeah, I'm not saying that that's a 542 00:26:14,087 --> 00:26:17,007 Speaker 2: professional way for the journalists to behave either. This is 543 00:26:17,047 --> 00:26:19,287 Speaker 2: the moment to unveil that interview if you've got it 544 00:26:19,327 --> 00:26:20,367 Speaker 2: in your pocket. 545 00:26:20,207 --> 00:26:21,127 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. 546 00:26:21,167 --> 00:26:24,287 Speaker 5: And that's the thing is that this interview resurfaced, but 547 00:26:24,407 --> 00:26:27,207 Speaker 5: so have a lot of interviews, interviews where she is 548 00:26:27,247 --> 00:26:31,407 Speaker 5: sitting beside America Ferrera, who eye rolls when she's giving an. 549 00:26:31,287 --> 00:26:34,887 Speaker 1: Answer America Ferrera, I rolls at Blake, Yes, in an interview. 550 00:26:35,047 --> 00:26:36,727 Speaker 1: Sorry I didn't understand. 551 00:26:36,847 --> 00:26:39,327 Speaker 5: Yeah, So there's a viral moment that you know was 552 00:26:39,647 --> 00:26:41,847 Speaker 5: like I reckon ten years ago. It was a sisterhood 553 00:26:41,847 --> 00:26:42,527 Speaker 5: of the Traveling Path. 554 00:26:42,647 --> 00:26:45,327 Speaker 1: But Jesse, I need you to explain to me what's 555 00:26:45,367 --> 00:26:49,367 Speaker 1: the They're there? Okay, like what did Blake do? The 556 00:26:49,487 --> 00:26:50,447 Speaker 1: villain of the internet. 557 00:26:50,487 --> 00:26:53,647 Speaker 5: All right, here's where it started. So we knew that 558 00:26:53,687 --> 00:26:56,087 Speaker 5: there was tension between her and Justin Baldoni, which we 559 00:26:56,087 --> 00:27:00,287 Speaker 5: talked about last week. People are seeing clips on TikTok 560 00:27:00,407 --> 00:27:03,767 Speaker 5: where she's talking about where your florals, Grab a girlfriend, 561 00:27:03,807 --> 00:27:07,727 Speaker 5: go and see this movie, and people are angry because 562 00:27:07,727 --> 00:27:11,247 Speaker 5: they're going, this is about domestic violence, which Justin Baldoni 563 00:27:11,287 --> 00:27:13,127 Speaker 5: is making a point of every time he talks about it. 564 00:27:13,247 --> 00:27:16,087 Speaker 5: He talks about domestic violence. So people are going, Blake 565 00:27:16,127 --> 00:27:18,647 Speaker 5: Lively is really undermining the themes of the movie, and 566 00:27:18,647 --> 00:27:21,847 Speaker 5: she's trying to sell her haircare brand and blah blah blah. 567 00:27:22,207 --> 00:27:25,007 Speaker 5: When this comes up, it has started to feed a 568 00:27:25,127 --> 00:27:28,167 Speaker 5: narrative that Blake Lively is a mean girl. That's what 569 00:27:28,207 --> 00:27:32,127 Speaker 5: they've decided, and even Blake Lively not talking about the 570 00:27:32,167 --> 00:27:37,007 Speaker 5: domestic violence themes has become a bit of a trend 571 00:27:37,167 --> 00:27:40,247 Speaker 5: or a myth being perpetuated around the Internet. There was 572 00:27:40,287 --> 00:27:42,807 Speaker 5: something that Vox a quote I read in a Vox 573 00:27:42,887 --> 00:27:46,367 Speaker 5: article that said, while tabloids like TMZ are reporting on 574 00:27:46,407 --> 00:27:49,247 Speaker 5: a behind the scenes pr war between Lively and Baldoni, 575 00:27:49,727 --> 00:27:52,487 Speaker 5: this part of the backlash, what we're talking about comes 576 00:27:52,487 --> 00:27:56,007 Speaker 5: from Lively, all on her own, answering these questions the 577 00:27:56,047 --> 00:28:00,007 Speaker 5: way she's chosen to. I could not disagree more. Because 578 00:28:00,447 --> 00:28:05,247 Speaker 5: they will cut an interview that's fifteen minutes. They will 579 00:28:05,287 --> 00:28:10,327 Speaker 5: cut thirty two seconds where she says something that looks 580 00:28:10,447 --> 00:28:13,167 Speaker 5: insensitive or silly and post it and be like, look, 581 00:28:13,207 --> 00:28:15,847 Speaker 5: she's not talking about domestic violence. Well, actually, if you 582 00:28:16,207 --> 00:28:19,327 Speaker 5: were to extend that clip out, she does answer the question, and. 583 00:28:19,367 --> 00:28:23,207 Speaker 1: Let's talk about how the internet economy works. The people 584 00:28:23,287 --> 00:28:27,167 Speaker 1: who are cutting those clips for their media companies or 585 00:28:27,167 --> 00:28:29,167 Speaker 1: for their you know, the people who are doing the interviews. 586 00:28:29,647 --> 00:28:31,847 Speaker 1: Guess what, if you get to talk to someone for 587 00:28:32,007 --> 00:28:34,927 Speaker 1: three minutes, the bit that you're going to cut and 588 00:28:35,087 --> 00:28:37,127 Speaker 1: use is the bit where she talks about having just 589 00:28:37,167 --> 00:28:41,047 Speaker 1: had a baby, or about her husband, or about something 590 00:28:41,047 --> 00:28:45,487 Speaker 1: that is not domestic violence because it is more marketable 591 00:28:45,567 --> 00:28:47,287 Speaker 1: and more people will click on it. That is not 592 00:28:47,407 --> 00:28:48,127 Speaker 1: her fault. 593 00:28:48,607 --> 00:28:52,247 Speaker 5: And now it's like we've written this story, so we're 594 00:28:52,287 --> 00:28:55,687 Speaker 5: looking for evidence to perpetuate the story. And what we 595 00:28:55,887 --> 00:29:00,087 Speaker 5: do when we cancel people, we do it broadly, but 596 00:29:00,207 --> 00:29:02,287 Speaker 5: we do it in a very specific way to women 597 00:29:02,967 --> 00:29:06,807 Speaker 5: is then we start to dig. And the dig has begun. 598 00:29:07,167 --> 00:29:11,327 Speaker 5: So the dig is about how Ryan Reynolds allegedly cheated 599 00:29:11,367 --> 00:29:15,367 Speaker 5: on Scarlet your Hansen with Blake Lively. We are talking 600 00:29:15,407 --> 00:29:18,567 Speaker 5: again about their twenty twelve wedding, which was twelve years ago, 601 00:29:18,887 --> 00:29:22,487 Speaker 5: which was on a plantation, and so Blake Lively also racist. 602 00:29:22,847 --> 00:29:25,047 Speaker 5: The part of the story that they're not talking about 603 00:29:25,247 --> 00:29:28,287 Speaker 5: is that they didn't know. They came out and apologized, 604 00:29:28,327 --> 00:29:31,687 Speaker 5: they donated thousands of dollars to Black Lives Matter, and 605 00:29:31,687 --> 00:29:33,047 Speaker 5: then they got remarried because they. 606 00:29:32,967 --> 00:29:33,847 Speaker 3: Were so horrified. 607 00:29:34,527 --> 00:29:37,807 Speaker 5: So they're going through now and finding every bit of 608 00:29:37,807 --> 00:29:41,447 Speaker 5: evidence they can that Blake Lively is the devil, and 609 00:29:41,527 --> 00:29:45,727 Speaker 5: the TikTok algorithm is just getting very excited about that. 610 00:29:45,967 --> 00:29:47,687 Speaker 5: Claire and I are doing a bit of work on 611 00:29:47,727 --> 00:29:50,607 Speaker 5: TikTok at the moment around Canceled the other podcast we do, 612 00:29:51,167 --> 00:29:54,207 Speaker 5: and we've done an episode on Blake, an episode on Ryan. 613 00:29:54,167 --> 00:29:57,847 Speaker 1: And explain that Canceled is a comedy podcast, so you're 614 00:29:57,887 --> 00:29:58,927 Speaker 1: not actually canceling. 615 00:29:59,247 --> 00:30:02,327 Speaker 5: No, it's a comedy podcast. The whole reason we started 616 00:30:02,327 --> 00:30:04,407 Speaker 5: it is for moments like these, because it's. 617 00:30:04,287 --> 00:30:07,127 Speaker 1: Satirical about how insane this situation. 618 00:30:06,807 --> 00:30:09,527 Speaker 5: Is and how seriously we take it, and how now, 619 00:30:09,847 --> 00:30:11,607 Speaker 5: for any other crime, you sit there, you get a 620 00:30:11,647 --> 00:30:13,687 Speaker 5: charge and a sentence and we move on with our lives. 621 00:30:14,047 --> 00:30:15,927 Speaker 3: But for Blake Lively, we. 622 00:30:16,047 --> 00:30:18,527 Speaker 5: Just throw and throw and throw, when if you look 623 00:30:18,567 --> 00:30:22,447 Speaker 5: at it, the no they're there thing is what exactly 624 00:30:22,487 --> 00:30:24,967 Speaker 5: are we accusing her off? And that's what the podcast 625 00:30:24,967 --> 00:30:27,847 Speaker 5: tries to do. On TikTok, where you know, doing a 626 00:30:27,847 --> 00:30:32,847 Speaker 5: few videos, and we noticed that if we blatantly defend 627 00:30:33,087 --> 00:30:37,887 Speaker 5: Blake Lively, which is our general position, the reach on 628 00:30:37,967 --> 00:30:41,527 Speaker 5: those videos is minuscule, right, even if there's engagement, it's 629 00:30:41,527 --> 00:30:44,007 Speaker 5: like the reach is being limited. Then there was one 630 00:30:44,087 --> 00:30:46,487 Speaker 5: video that went off about Blake Lively, and when I 631 00:30:46,527 --> 00:30:49,607 Speaker 5: had a look at how we'd sold it, I went, Oh, 632 00:30:50,287 --> 00:30:53,247 Speaker 5: if I was the algorithm, I would probably think that 633 00:30:53,287 --> 00:30:54,887 Speaker 5: we were going to add a little bit of fuel 634 00:30:54,927 --> 00:30:57,407 Speaker 5: to the fire. Now, there are a few things going on. 635 00:30:57,607 --> 00:31:01,487 Speaker 5: The first is that it's a self fulfilling prophecy. People 636 00:31:01,527 --> 00:31:05,607 Speaker 5: want bad things about Blake. I also think something is 637 00:31:05,647 --> 00:31:08,967 Speaker 5: happening with TikTok. You spoke before about Justin Baldoni and 638 00:31:09,287 --> 00:31:14,047 Speaker 5: he's pr Crisis team who won the Johnny Depp amber 639 00:31:14,087 --> 00:31:18,647 Speaker 5: Herd trial. Holly you recently recommended who trolled Amber, which 640 00:31:18,887 --> 00:31:22,167 Speaker 5: looked at how you can basically get bots to win 641 00:31:22,847 --> 00:31:27,127 Speaker 5: your affection in the public narrative. Something is going on here. 642 00:31:27,247 --> 00:31:28,487 Speaker 5: I feel that very strongly. 643 00:31:28,687 --> 00:31:31,647 Speaker 2: I also just think, though we all need the perspective 644 00:31:31,807 --> 00:31:35,447 Speaker 2: that this movie is a big success. It was an 645 00:31:35,447 --> 00:31:37,967 Speaker 2: indie movie that didn't cost very much money to make. 646 00:31:38,687 --> 00:31:41,967 Speaker 2: Everybody is going to see it. All of this attention 647 00:31:42,127 --> 00:31:44,887 Speaker 2: is also making more and more people see it. And 648 00:31:45,287 --> 00:31:47,527 Speaker 2: the thing that's interesting to me is that all of 649 00:31:47,527 --> 00:31:49,607 Speaker 2: this Blake Lively stuff comes down to something that we 650 00:31:49,647 --> 00:31:52,367 Speaker 2: talk about all the time, which is successful woman and 651 00:31:52,447 --> 00:31:56,167 Speaker 2: having a very successful moment. She must be awful, she 652 00:31:56,247 --> 00:31:58,807 Speaker 2: must be a terrible person, she must not be likable, 653 00:31:59,247 --> 00:32:02,127 Speaker 2: and they're digging up everything that makes her seem like 654 00:32:02,167 --> 00:32:04,247 Speaker 2: a bit of a bitch. Basically so that then everyone 655 00:32:04,247 --> 00:32:06,887 Speaker 2: can go Blake Lively bit of a bitch and clearly 656 00:32:06,927 --> 00:32:10,327 Speaker 2: doesn't like women because she doesn't really care about domestic violence, 657 00:32:11,007 --> 00:32:16,447 Speaker 2: and all of those things are so subjective and so nonsense. Also, 658 00:32:16,527 --> 00:32:20,287 Speaker 2: the idea that Blake Lively and Blake Lively alone decided 659 00:32:20,327 --> 00:32:22,967 Speaker 2: how this movie was going to be marketed is so 660 00:32:23,287 --> 00:32:26,047 Speaker 2: stupid that I can't bear it. Yes, of course she 661 00:32:26,087 --> 00:32:28,247 Speaker 2: has a lot of power. She does because she's got 662 00:32:28,247 --> 00:32:31,007 Speaker 2: a producer credit, She's married to one of Hollywood's most 663 00:32:31,007 --> 00:32:34,047 Speaker 2: powerful men, no questions, She's got loads of power. But 664 00:32:34,247 --> 00:32:37,047 Speaker 2: this is not the first film that is about a 665 00:32:37,167 --> 00:32:40,367 Speaker 2: serious topic that has been marketed in a frivolous way. 666 00:32:40,487 --> 00:32:45,247 Speaker 2: It happens all the time, and it particularly happens when 667 00:32:45,247 --> 00:32:49,047 Speaker 2: you are talking about violence against women. It's interesting because 668 00:32:49,927 --> 00:32:52,607 Speaker 2: Colleen Hoover so who wrote these books, and they are 669 00:32:52,767 --> 00:32:55,207 Speaker 2: enormously successful. We touched on this last week, but not 670 00:32:55,327 --> 00:32:59,527 Speaker 2: just a little bit successful, like world headlines successful. She 671 00:32:59,607 --> 00:33:01,607 Speaker 2: is one of the best selling authors in the world. 672 00:33:01,647 --> 00:33:05,007 Speaker 2: So everybody knows what this book is about, right because 673 00:33:05,007 --> 00:33:08,247 Speaker 2: twenty million people have read it. And she also marketed 674 00:33:08,287 --> 00:33:10,727 Speaker 2: the books with pretty flowers on the cover and in 675 00:33:10,727 --> 00:33:13,687 Speaker 2: a particular way. And I spoke a couple of years 676 00:33:13,687 --> 00:33:16,647 Speaker 2: ago about how the last book that I wrote, which 677 00:33:16,687 --> 00:33:19,727 Speaker 2: is termed commercial women's fiction, which is what Colleen Hoover 678 00:33:19,847 --> 00:33:23,207 Speaker 2: is certainly termed as is generally seen to be frivolous 679 00:33:23,247 --> 00:33:26,047 Speaker 2: and silly and you've got to put stripes or flowers 680 00:33:26,087 --> 00:33:29,167 Speaker 2: or pink on the cover, but actually very often deal 681 00:33:29,207 --> 00:33:31,967 Speaker 2: with serious, gritty things that are part of women's lives, 682 00:33:32,727 --> 00:33:36,287 Speaker 2: are always sneered at and always looked down upon when 683 00:33:36,367 --> 00:33:38,927 Speaker 2: actually women love them, like the women who are flocking 684 00:33:38,927 --> 00:33:41,727 Speaker 2: to see this film and the women who read Colleen 685 00:33:41,767 --> 00:33:45,127 Speaker 2: Hoover books. You know, there's snobby attitudes about those books. 686 00:33:45,487 --> 00:33:47,247 Speaker 2: And I want to be really clear that I haven't 687 00:33:47,247 --> 00:33:49,087 Speaker 2: read them, because when we talked about it last time, 688 00:33:49,127 --> 00:33:51,287 Speaker 2: a couple of people said, oh, Holly sounded snooty about 689 00:33:51,287 --> 00:33:54,687 Speaker 2: those books. I haven't read them. But people who are 690 00:33:54,767 --> 00:33:59,087 Speaker 2: very serious about literature in inverted commas look down enormously 691 00:33:59,127 --> 00:34:01,567 Speaker 2: on the Colleen Hoovers of the world because she started 692 00:34:01,607 --> 00:34:04,927 Speaker 2: off self published. She writes books about women's lives that 693 00:34:04,967 --> 00:34:07,447 Speaker 2: women want to read, but she doesn't come from a 694 00:34:07,567 --> 00:34:11,087 Speaker 2: storied literary background. It annoys a lot of people. It 695 00:34:11,167 --> 00:34:13,727 Speaker 2: probably also annoys a lot of people that this movie 696 00:34:14,047 --> 00:34:17,327 Speaker 2: that you know, a powerful woman has helped promote and 697 00:34:17,407 --> 00:34:20,567 Speaker 2: make is doing really well. And I just think we 698 00:34:20,647 --> 00:34:24,647 Speaker 2: need to really examine what we're being sold here. If 699 00:34:24,687 --> 00:34:25,687 Speaker 2: you want to go and see. 700 00:34:25,567 --> 00:34:27,407 Speaker 3: This movie, who cares. 701 00:34:27,127 --> 00:34:30,167 Speaker 2: Whether Blake Lively sometimes is in a bad mood, rolls 702 00:34:30,167 --> 00:34:32,807 Speaker 2: her eyes like have you never been in a bad mood? 703 00:34:32,807 --> 00:34:35,967 Speaker 2: And rolls her eyes like are we what is this about? 704 00:34:36,167 --> 00:34:39,767 Speaker 5: Well, that's a great irony, right is it? Yes, people 705 00:34:39,807 --> 00:34:41,047 Speaker 5: are going to see it, and it's making a lot 706 00:34:41,087 --> 00:34:43,167 Speaker 5: of money, so you go is a success? Who even 707 00:34:43,207 --> 00:34:45,847 Speaker 5: cares about the backlash if people go and see a 708 00:34:45,887 --> 00:34:49,927 Speaker 5: movie that's about domestic violence and about gendered relationships and 709 00:34:50,047 --> 00:34:53,487 Speaker 5: power in those dynamics and they walk out of that 710 00:34:53,527 --> 00:34:56,407 Speaker 5: film going I liked the film, but Blake Lively is 711 00:34:56,447 --> 00:35:00,287 Speaker 5: a bitch. There's a great irony there, which is that 712 00:35:00,807 --> 00:35:05,647 Speaker 5: we are still perpetuating this hatred of women, and we 713 00:35:05,727 --> 00:35:08,847 Speaker 5: can't see that that's a problem. The way that I've 714 00:35:08,887 --> 00:35:13,167 Speaker 5: seen TikTok in particular interpret this is that everything bad 715 00:35:13,167 --> 00:35:15,687 Speaker 5: about this project is the fault of the women. So 716 00:35:15,807 --> 00:35:19,487 Speaker 5: Colleen Hoover in Perfect Story, Blake Lively in perfect marketing, 717 00:35:19,967 --> 00:35:23,567 Speaker 5: and anything good about the film is the work of 718 00:35:23,647 --> 00:35:28,127 Speaker 5: the man. And if you can't see that entrenched within 719 00:35:28,287 --> 00:35:32,927 Speaker 5: that is misogyny, which is the same route that perpetuates 720 00:35:32,967 --> 00:35:36,447 Speaker 5: domestic violence. I think you're missing something. And that's not 721 00:35:36,487 --> 00:35:38,367 Speaker 5: to say that Blake Lively is perfect or that she 722 00:35:38,487 --> 00:35:40,687 Speaker 5: doesn't want criticism. I'm sure that she does. 723 00:35:40,647 --> 00:35:44,207 Speaker 1: But not like this, the volume compared to the crime. 724 00:35:45,207 --> 00:35:50,967 Speaker 1: And I say crime like rolling my eyes, because everybody's 725 00:35:51,007 --> 00:35:53,007 Speaker 1: just looking to hate. And you know, I even read 726 00:35:53,007 --> 00:35:55,447 Speaker 1: a quote that someone had said in one of these interviews, 727 00:35:55,487 --> 00:35:58,047 Speaker 1: if you have a message for victims of domestic violence, 728 00:35:58,447 --> 00:36:00,367 Speaker 1: what would it be? And she said, you should just 729 00:36:00,447 --> 00:36:04,007 Speaker 1: know that you are not defined by what's happened to you. 730 00:36:04,007 --> 00:36:08,807 Speaker 1: You are more than your worst experience, which is something 731 00:36:08,847 --> 00:36:13,327 Speaker 1: that's fairly anadyne to say and is lovely and seemingly inoffensive. 732 00:36:13,927 --> 00:36:17,287 Speaker 1: It's spun into oh, she doesn't care and she doesn't understand, 733 00:36:17,367 --> 00:36:22,127 Speaker 1: and it's just like everyone's just looking to pile on. 734 00:36:22,367 --> 00:36:25,287 Speaker 1: And it's what you say, Jesse. I can't think of 735 00:36:25,967 --> 00:36:28,447 Speaker 1: a time recently when it's been a man like you. 736 00:36:28,487 --> 00:36:31,807 Speaker 1: Look at j Lo, it was similar, you know, whether 737 00:36:31,847 --> 00:36:34,247 Speaker 1: it's Meghan, and perhaps we're also guilty of it on 738 00:36:34,287 --> 00:36:39,327 Speaker 1: this show. It's about Meghan, not Harry, Jlo, not Ben. 739 00:36:39,487 --> 00:36:41,647 Speaker 1: And it's funny. I was thinking at the logis last 740 00:36:41,727 --> 00:36:46,127 Speaker 1: night when Larry Emda won. The men always win and 741 00:36:46,167 --> 00:36:51,287 Speaker 1: are nominated. Carl won gold, Lisa was never not even nominated. 742 00:36:51,847 --> 00:36:54,807 Speaker 1: Larry one gold. Kyler Gillies, who he also sits next 743 00:36:54,847 --> 00:36:57,367 Speaker 1: to you on the couch every single day, you know, 744 00:36:57,487 --> 00:36:58,527 Speaker 1: is not even nominated. 745 00:36:58,647 --> 00:37:00,367 Speaker 2: We do have to look at ourselves about this a 746 00:37:00,367 --> 00:37:02,247 Speaker 2: little bit. I know that you'll tell me I'm finger 747 00:37:02,287 --> 00:37:05,567 Speaker 2: wagging mere and you're probably right, But why can't we 748 00:37:05,647 --> 00:37:08,767 Speaker 2: watch a woman she's having a big pr moment because 749 00:37:08,767 --> 00:37:11,407 Speaker 2: she's got some big to sell. For nine of the 750 00:37:11,487 --> 00:37:13,487 Speaker 2: last ten years, you wouldn't have heard from Blake Lively. 751 00:37:13,607 --> 00:37:16,167 Speaker 2: You know, she's off doing her stuff. She's out there, 752 00:37:16,207 --> 00:37:19,327 Speaker 2: putting herself out there to sell something that she believes in. 753 00:37:19,647 --> 00:37:21,807 Speaker 2: And all any of us want to do is scratch 754 00:37:21,807 --> 00:37:23,727 Speaker 2: away at the surface. There must be something wrong here, 755 00:37:23,767 --> 00:37:25,967 Speaker 2: there must be something bad here, there must be something 756 00:37:26,047 --> 00:37:29,967 Speaker 2: dodgy about her. And it's like, why are we surprised 757 00:37:29,967 --> 00:37:31,487 Speaker 2: that women don't want to put the heads above the 758 00:37:31,527 --> 00:37:34,407 Speaker 2: parapet and put things out there and talk about them 759 00:37:34,727 --> 00:37:36,087 Speaker 2: when this is what will come your way. 760 00:37:36,007 --> 00:37:36,367 Speaker 7: If you do. 761 00:37:38,687 --> 00:37:41,887 Speaker 5: Every Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments of Mummy 762 00:37:41,927 --> 00:37:45,527 Speaker 5: A out Loud just for MUMMYA subscribers. Follow the link 763 00:37:45,527 --> 00:37:47,407 Speaker 5: in the show notes to get your daily dose of 764 00:37:47,447 --> 00:37:49,927 Speaker 5: out Loud and a big thank you to all our 765 00:37:49,967 --> 00:37:50,927 Speaker 5: current subscribers. 766 00:37:58,927 --> 00:38:03,087 Speaker 2: Five people, including two doctors and his personal assistant, have 767 00:38:03,207 --> 00:38:06,807 Speaker 2: been changed in connection with Matthew Perry's drug related death. 768 00:38:07,047 --> 00:38:10,567 Speaker 2: Matthew Perry was so open about his history of drug 769 00:38:10,607 --> 00:38:13,407 Speaker 2: abuse that he wrote an entire book about it. It's 770 00:38:13,647 --> 00:38:15,887 Speaker 2: a really good book. We've spoken about it on the 771 00:38:15,927 --> 00:38:19,927 Speaker 2: show before, published before his death, about the fact that 772 00:38:20,047 --> 00:38:24,207 Speaker 2: he had been so addicted to payingkillers for decades, was 773 00:38:24,247 --> 00:38:27,367 Speaker 2: so deeply entrenched in his battle with addiction that he 774 00:38:27,527 --> 00:38:32,687 Speaker 2: had spent something like nine million American dollars on trying 775 00:38:32,727 --> 00:38:35,927 Speaker 2: to beat it over the years. Of course, Perry was 776 00:38:35,967 --> 00:38:41,247 Speaker 2: the very, very successful Friends star who died last October, 777 00:38:41,487 --> 00:38:44,327 Speaker 2: and many reports said that when he was found on 778 00:38:44,487 --> 00:38:47,367 Speaker 2: responsive in his hot tob and his La home that 779 00:38:47,447 --> 00:38:49,927 Speaker 2: it was a shock but not a surprise, And those 780 00:38:49,967 --> 00:38:52,767 Speaker 2: were actually the words that he used in his book 781 00:38:53,207 --> 00:38:56,207 Speaker 2: about how his own family would have felt at various 782 00:38:56,247 --> 00:39:00,167 Speaker 2: stages of his life if he had overdosed. So, if 783 00:39:00,167 --> 00:39:03,007 Speaker 2: his passing was a case of self inflicted OD, why 784 00:39:03,087 --> 00:39:08,207 Speaker 2: have five people now been charged over his death. Last Friday, 785 00:39:08,287 --> 00:39:11,207 Speaker 2: the news that police had arrested one of Perry's doctors, 786 00:39:11,247 --> 00:39:14,647 Speaker 2: his personal assistant, and a woman widely referred to as 787 00:39:14,687 --> 00:39:18,967 Speaker 2: the Ketamine Queen made headlines around the world. The fact 788 00:39:19,007 --> 00:39:21,647 Speaker 2: that he died of an overdose of ketamine, which is 789 00:39:21,687 --> 00:39:26,287 Speaker 2: a powerful, short acting anesthetic, was widely greeted with some 790 00:39:26,327 --> 00:39:29,527 Speaker 2: surprise in Hollywood last year because that drug has been 791 00:39:29,567 --> 00:39:33,567 Speaker 2: in the headlines a lot as a therapeutic treatment for 792 00:39:33,727 --> 00:39:38,687 Speaker 2: anxiety and depression among sort of Silicon Valley tech bros. 793 00:39:38,767 --> 00:39:41,047 Speaker 2: And there are in American this is certainly not true 794 00:39:41,047 --> 00:39:44,007 Speaker 2: in Australia. It is legal to be used in therapeutic 795 00:39:44,127 --> 00:39:46,847 Speaker 2: settings outside of hospitals, so it was once used as 796 00:39:46,847 --> 00:39:50,567 Speaker 2: an anesthetic and a tranquilizer, a horse tranquilizer, yeah, a 797 00:39:50,567 --> 00:39:53,687 Speaker 2: horse tranquiliser, but also by surgeons as a very effective 798 00:39:53,887 --> 00:39:58,607 Speaker 2: anesthetic for operations and very serious things. You know, I've 799 00:39:58,607 --> 00:40:01,607 Speaker 2: listened to podcast hosts talk about their therapy with it. 800 00:40:01,487 --> 00:40:06,527 Speaker 2: It had become sort of mainstreamed, right, But apparently what 801 00:40:06,687 --> 00:40:10,487 Speaker 2: had happened with Perry is is that his doctor first 802 00:40:10,487 --> 00:40:13,767 Speaker 2: prescribed him ketmine for depression. But as a man had 803 00:40:13,767 --> 00:40:16,847 Speaker 2: fought addictions to painkillers for decades, it's not surprising that 804 00:40:16,967 --> 00:40:19,607 Speaker 2: his use spiraled, and by the time of his death, 805 00:40:20,127 --> 00:40:23,407 Speaker 2: his assistant police alleged was injecting him many times a 806 00:40:23,487 --> 00:40:25,447 Speaker 2: day with dangerous levels. 807 00:40:25,207 --> 00:40:25,727 Speaker 7: Of the drug. 808 00:40:25,927 --> 00:40:28,367 Speaker 1: It was so sad reading about that. It was in 809 00:40:28,447 --> 00:40:30,087 Speaker 1: his doctor tragedy. 810 00:40:29,767 --> 00:40:32,807 Speaker 2: And the woman who was the dealer it seems here, 811 00:40:32,847 --> 00:40:35,807 Speaker 2: who they largely call the ketamine Queen, who apparently deals 812 00:40:35,807 --> 00:40:38,887 Speaker 2: with a lot of very high end Hollywood clients, were 813 00:40:38,967 --> 00:40:41,287 Speaker 2: convinced that they could get Perry to pay almost anything 814 00:40:41,327 --> 00:40:43,687 Speaker 2: for this drug. There was a text from the doctor saying, 815 00:40:43,727 --> 00:40:46,327 Speaker 2: I wonder how much this moron would pay, and the 816 00:40:46,407 --> 00:40:48,847 Speaker 2: answer was a lot. He apparently was paying more than 817 00:40:48,847 --> 00:40:52,527 Speaker 2: one hundred and sixty five times its price by the 818 00:40:52,607 --> 00:40:55,807 Speaker 2: time of his death. Jesse, do you think that this 819 00:40:55,927 --> 00:41:00,607 Speaker 2: story will derail that changing narrative about drugs like ketamine 820 00:41:00,607 --> 00:41:02,807 Speaker 2: being used in therapy or is it just a story 821 00:41:02,927 --> 00:41:06,847 Speaker 2: about a celebrity who was able to push all the guardrails. 822 00:41:07,047 --> 00:41:07,967 Speaker 3: I don't think it will. 823 00:41:08,407 --> 00:41:12,567 Speaker 5: The more I rare about this story, the more I 824 00:41:13,007 --> 00:41:15,767 Speaker 5: realized that it was about someone who was in such 825 00:41:15,767 --> 00:41:18,087 Speaker 5: a position that no one could say no to him, 826 00:41:18,367 --> 00:41:20,607 Speaker 5: and that's the most dangerous position anyone can be in. 827 00:41:21,127 --> 00:41:24,407 Speaker 5: There was a great column by Marina Hyde who said, 828 00:41:24,807 --> 00:41:28,687 Speaker 5: getting yourself into a position where people can't deny you 829 00:41:29,087 --> 00:41:32,927 Speaker 5: of what you ask for is where things get really scary. 830 00:41:33,047 --> 00:41:36,967 Speaker 5: I think Michael Jackson was in a similar position. It 831 00:41:37,087 --> 00:41:38,887 Speaker 5: kind of clarified, and I think that this is more 832 00:41:38,927 --> 00:41:41,367 Speaker 5: the case in the US, and it is in Australia. 833 00:41:41,407 --> 00:41:45,167 Speaker 5: But if you have enough money, the hippocratic oath of 834 00:41:45,367 --> 00:41:48,447 Speaker 5: do no harm can be absolutely ignored. There are people 835 00:41:48,967 --> 00:41:52,207 Speaker 5: at all levels in medicine who have studied this because 836 00:41:52,927 --> 00:41:54,927 Speaker 5: reading this from the outside, you would go, oh, he 837 00:41:55,007 --> 00:41:57,887 Speaker 5: had a drug dealer, like a street drug dealer, but 838 00:41:57,927 --> 00:42:00,527 Speaker 5: you go no. These were people in white coats who 839 00:42:00,607 --> 00:42:04,807 Speaker 5: had an absolute responsibility to him and his health to 840 00:42:04,927 --> 00:42:07,047 Speaker 5: not give him as much as he wanted. Because the 841 00:42:07,087 --> 00:42:10,647 Speaker 5: doctors who had initially prescribed this or his mental health 842 00:42:10,647 --> 00:42:13,007 Speaker 5: issues they were allowed to do that, did so in 843 00:42:13,047 --> 00:42:16,127 Speaker 5: small doses. He felt it wasn't enough for him and 844 00:42:16,167 --> 00:42:17,367 Speaker 5: so he was going. 845 00:42:17,447 --> 00:42:19,887 Speaker 1: And the clinic I think ended up refusing to treat 846 00:42:19,967 --> 00:42:22,167 Speaker 1: him because he was wanting more and more. 847 00:42:22,207 --> 00:42:23,487 Speaker 3: But they were doing the right thing. 848 00:42:24,007 --> 00:42:29,807 Speaker 1: This is the problem with not everyone can take drugs 849 00:42:29,847 --> 00:42:31,727 Speaker 1: and have the same effect. I don't just mean the 850 00:42:31,727 --> 00:42:35,047 Speaker 1: effect of the drugs, I mean how they feel about 851 00:42:35,087 --> 00:42:37,687 Speaker 1: it afterwards. So Holy, I've listened to some of the 852 00:42:37,687 --> 00:42:40,207 Speaker 1: same podcasts as you with people that we both know 853 00:42:40,367 --> 00:42:44,407 Speaker 1: who've tried ketamine therapy, and they literally, because these are 854 00:42:44,407 --> 00:42:47,127 Speaker 1: people who don't take drugs or don't have problems with addiction, 855 00:42:47,447 --> 00:42:49,487 Speaker 1: they go to the clinic, they take it, they go, oh, 856 00:42:49,527 --> 00:42:51,207 Speaker 1: that was interesting, and either they liked it or they 857 00:42:51,247 --> 00:42:54,327 Speaker 1: didn't like it. But then that's the end, right, It's 858 00:42:54,367 --> 00:42:57,847 Speaker 1: like having a one time experience. But people who have 859 00:42:57,927 --> 00:43:00,487 Speaker 1: addiction issues, or who are prone to addiction, who have 860 00:43:00,527 --> 00:43:03,967 Speaker 1: a history of addiction, they can't. So there is no 861 00:43:04,167 --> 00:43:06,447 Speaker 1: safe way. There was never a safe going to be 862 00:43:06,447 --> 00:43:09,927 Speaker 1: a safe way for Matthew Perry to try ketamine. 863 00:43:10,007 --> 00:43:12,207 Speaker 3: And this is what's confusing, right, because I was looking 864 00:43:12,207 --> 00:43:12,447 Speaker 3: it up. 865 00:43:12,527 --> 00:43:17,607 Speaker 5: Ketamine isn't addictive, but the feeling you get from the 866 00:43:17,727 --> 00:43:21,247 Speaker 5: ketamine is likely addictive to someone who has had a 867 00:43:21,327 --> 00:43:24,047 Speaker 5: history of an addictive so I think that the doctors 868 00:43:24,087 --> 00:43:27,847 Speaker 5: who initially prescribed did it in a controlled way were 869 00:43:27,847 --> 00:43:30,247 Speaker 5: probably doing the right thing. And there are doctors who 870 00:43:30,287 --> 00:43:33,727 Speaker 5: are exploring this and doing research papers, and I encourage that. 871 00:43:33,807 --> 00:43:36,247 Speaker 5: I think the more research we do about treatments for 872 00:43:36,247 --> 00:43:38,927 Speaker 5: anxiety and depression and pain and all of it is 873 00:43:39,007 --> 00:43:39,567 Speaker 5: really good. 874 00:43:40,047 --> 00:43:41,767 Speaker 3: But to me, this. 875 00:43:41,687 --> 00:43:45,967 Speaker 5: Became about wanting more and having the means. But I 876 00:43:46,007 --> 00:43:49,847 Speaker 5: suppose that if you're someone who is an addict, whether 877 00:43:49,967 --> 00:43:52,167 Speaker 5: or not you're Matthew Perry, and you have all the 878 00:43:52,167 --> 00:43:55,327 Speaker 5: money in the world, the lengths you'll go to to 879 00:43:55,447 --> 00:43:59,207 Speaker 5: get what you want are pretty extreme, which is what 880 00:43:59,287 --> 00:43:59,807 Speaker 5: we saw. 881 00:44:00,087 --> 00:44:04,647 Speaker 1: His personal assistant had been working for him since nineteen 882 00:44:04,767 --> 00:44:07,927 Speaker 1: ninety four. I also have read the book, and you 883 00:44:07,927 --> 00:44:10,407 Speaker 1: know clearly he was had a lot of drug problems 884 00:44:10,407 --> 00:44:14,087 Speaker 1: through that whole time. He really struggled with addiction. So 885 00:44:14,167 --> 00:44:17,327 Speaker 1: this is obviously someone who has been and it's hard 886 00:44:17,327 --> 00:44:19,927 Speaker 1: to say whether he was enabling Perry. I mean he was, 887 00:44:19,967 --> 00:44:24,047 Speaker 1: but also he needed a job presumably, or was he 888 00:44:24,167 --> 00:44:29,807 Speaker 1: exploding Perry. Was Perry exploiting him. It's really hard to say. 889 00:44:30,207 --> 00:44:35,007 Speaker 1: And that's why when he died suddenly, and all those 890 00:44:35,047 --> 00:44:37,047 Speaker 1: people rushed out to say, no, there were no drug 891 00:44:37,047 --> 00:44:39,887 Speaker 1: paraphernalia found in the house. That's because the assistant who 892 00:44:39,967 --> 00:44:42,807 Speaker 1: had injected him that morning more than once, came home 893 00:44:42,927 --> 00:44:45,367 Speaker 1: found his body quickly before calling nine to one one 894 00:44:45,727 --> 00:44:48,167 Speaker 1: after he'd pulled him out and established that he couldn't 895 00:44:48,167 --> 00:44:51,607 Speaker 1: be arrived, went and cleaned up all the drug paraphernalia, 896 00:44:51,687 --> 00:44:54,087 Speaker 1: so it wasn't found. But then so much catamine was 897 00:44:54,127 --> 00:44:56,687 Speaker 1: found in his system that it started this investigation. But 898 00:44:56,727 --> 00:44:58,847 Speaker 1: I mean, anyone who was following him on social media, 899 00:44:59,167 --> 00:45:00,767 Speaker 1: all these claims, Oh he was sober, He was so 900 00:45:00,807 --> 00:45:02,927 Speaker 1: but he wasn't sober, and you could tell that by 901 00:45:02,927 --> 00:45:04,767 Speaker 1: looking at his social posts. 902 00:45:04,767 --> 00:45:07,487 Speaker 5: There were also they were able to look at the 903 00:45:07,687 --> 00:45:11,087 Speaker 5: Google searches of the ketamine Queen as they called her, 904 00:45:11,407 --> 00:45:14,127 Speaker 5: who had very quickly googled if ketemine can be cited 905 00:45:14,167 --> 00:45:16,287 Speaker 5: as a cause of death, and then in the group 906 00:45:16,327 --> 00:45:19,327 Speaker 5: text were saying delete these threads, delete these threads. I'm 907 00:45:19,407 --> 00:45:21,887 Speaker 5: ninety percent sure we're not liable that kind of thing. 908 00:45:22,007 --> 00:45:25,487 Speaker 5: So there was obviously some understanding of how dangerous these 909 00:45:25,527 --> 00:45:27,807 Speaker 5: levels were. They just didn't care because of the money 910 00:45:27,807 --> 00:45:29,847 Speaker 5: they were getting. I think they said, like twelve US 911 00:45:29,887 --> 00:45:32,047 Speaker 5: dollars for a vile of kenemine. They were selling it 912 00:45:32,047 --> 00:45:32,767 Speaker 5: for thousands. 913 00:45:33,007 --> 00:45:35,527 Speaker 2: One of the reasons why I really I think about 914 00:45:35,607 --> 00:45:37,727 Speaker 2: Matthew Perry's book a lot is because I think it 915 00:45:37,887 --> 00:45:40,967 Speaker 2: is one of the most honest and visceral descriptions of 916 00:45:40,967 --> 00:45:45,407 Speaker 2: addiction that I've ever read. Because I think from the outside, 917 00:45:45,487 --> 00:45:50,767 Speaker 2: it might be simple to dismiss, you know, his struggles 918 00:45:50,887 --> 00:45:53,047 Speaker 2: as well. He was a man with too much privilege 919 00:45:53,047 --> 00:45:55,927 Speaker 2: and too much access to everything, But he often talked 920 00:45:55,967 --> 00:45:59,487 Speaker 2: about how, you know, other people he knew could walk 921 00:45:59,567 --> 00:46:01,967 Speaker 2: away from things that he absolutely couldn't, which is back 922 00:46:02,007 --> 00:46:04,647 Speaker 2: to what you said mea. The thing about it is 923 00:46:04,727 --> 00:46:07,247 Speaker 2: really good, Jesse, that all these different kinds of drugs 924 00:46:07,247 --> 00:46:10,167 Speaker 2: that are illegal and now being re examined in a 925 00:46:10,207 --> 00:46:14,047 Speaker 2: way because there's also lots of hallucinogen research about whether 926 00:46:14,087 --> 00:46:16,567 Speaker 2: that can help with anxiety and depression. But you'll often 927 00:46:16,567 --> 00:46:19,727 Speaker 2: hear addicts say, people who are sober and in recovery, 928 00:46:19,967 --> 00:46:22,807 Speaker 2: that's just not an option that I can take because 929 00:46:22,807 --> 00:46:26,127 Speaker 2: I know what will happen. And Matthew Perry was in 930 00:46:26,127 --> 00:46:28,447 Speaker 2: that camp, and he would have known that too, And 931 00:46:28,487 --> 00:46:32,487 Speaker 2: it's just so heartbreakingly sad that there's a little industry 932 00:46:32,527 --> 00:46:36,007 Speaker 2: there that were just so ready and eager to exploit 933 00:46:36,087 --> 00:46:39,527 Speaker 2: that and call the man a moron and give him 934 00:46:39,527 --> 00:46:41,807 Speaker 2: as much as he could physically, well not even that 935 00:46:41,887 --> 00:46:45,167 Speaker 2: he couldn't physically take. It's just kind of devastatingly sad. 936 00:46:45,207 --> 00:46:48,447 Speaker 2: I think for the people around Matthew Perry who just 937 00:46:48,487 --> 00:46:51,247 Speaker 2: can't understand why this could never be beaten for him. 938 00:46:52,047 --> 00:46:54,927 Speaker 1: Last week, em Rada needed our help, didn't she. 939 00:46:54,927 --> 00:46:55,807 Speaker 3: She did just. 940 00:46:55,727 --> 00:46:59,887 Speaker 5: Because she's divorced, and in a recent interview she opened 941 00:46:59,967 --> 00:47:03,327 Speaker 5: up about what became of her marriage, how the dynamic shifted. 942 00:47:03,887 --> 00:47:06,967 Speaker 5: And there's also a viral video going around talking about 943 00:47:07,007 --> 00:47:12,047 Speaker 5: this theory that no marriage can sustain to big jobs, 944 00:47:12,607 --> 00:47:16,407 Speaker 5: and we discussed whether that's true. We looked at how 945 00:47:16,527 --> 00:47:19,407 Speaker 5: em Rata kind of fell victim to a lot of 946 00:47:19,447 --> 00:47:22,807 Speaker 5: the gendered dynamics that a lot of women do, and 947 00:47:22,847 --> 00:47:25,767 Speaker 5: it made for a very interesting conversation. A link to 948 00:47:25,807 --> 00:47:28,327 Speaker 5: that subscriber episode will be in the show notes. 949 00:47:28,887 --> 00:47:30,967 Speaker 2: Thank you out Louders for being with us on this 950 00:47:31,047 --> 00:47:33,287 Speaker 2: post logis Monday. I don't think that Meo did too 951 00:47:33,327 --> 00:47:36,087 Speaker 2: much of a carl, did she really? She backed that 952 00:47:36,167 --> 00:47:39,247 Speaker 2: up pretty well. We will be back in your ears 953 00:47:39,247 --> 00:47:43,247 Speaker 2: tomorrow and thank you to our fabulous team for helping 954 00:47:43,287 --> 00:47:44,327 Speaker 2: us put this show together. 955 00:47:44,687 --> 00:47:45,727 Speaker 4: We'll see you tomorrow. 956 00:47:45,807 --> 00:47:46,727 Speaker 7: Bye bye. 957 00:47:47,487 --> 00:47:50,367 Speaker 2: Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening. If you 958 00:47:50,527 --> 00:47:53,407 Speaker 2: love the show and you want to support us, subscribing 959 00:47:53,407 --> 00:47:55,887 Speaker 2: to MoMA Mia is the very best way to do it. 960 00:47:56,047 --> 00:47:57,927 Speaker 2: There's a link in the episode description.