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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Mama Mia out Loud. It's what

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Speaker 2: women are actually talking about on Wednesday, the twenty eighth

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Speaker 2: of January.

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Speaker 3: I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm Amelia Luster.

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Speaker 4: And I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 2: And here's what's on our agenda for today. The latest

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Speaker 2: chapter in a very public Australian cheating scandal and what

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Speaker 2: it tells us about a woman scorned in twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 1: And we've been reading a lot of celebrity text messages

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Speaker 1: these last couple of days, and it turns out they

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Speaker 1: really are just like us and Minneapolis.

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Speaker 4: What is going on? What does the video footage tell us?

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Speaker 4: And where to from here?

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Speaker 3: But first, Jesse Stevens, In.

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Speaker 4: Case you missed it, Coco Goff, the twenty one year

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Speaker 4: old US tennis player who last night lost to Ukrainian

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Speaker 4: Elena Spittelina at the Australian Open, wishes we hadn't seen

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Speaker 4: that video. So she lost in under an hour. It

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Speaker 4: was very decisive and in the aftermath she was caught

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Speaker 4: on video. You would have seen it if you've clicked

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Speaker 4: on any articles today or you've had the TV on

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Speaker 4: of her just smashing that tennis racket on like a

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Speaker 4: concrete ramp.

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Speaker 2: She's gone a little bit behind a wall. Yep, so

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Speaker 2: she's like hiding herself from view. Yes, but there's a

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Speaker 2: camera up behind her the right everything exactly.

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Speaker 4: And so that has been broadcast all around the world.

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Speaker 4: And look, a tennis player losing and then smashing a

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Speaker 4: racket not unusual. What is unusual is how unimpressed golf was.

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Speaker 4: And she expressed this that that moment was broadcast. So

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Speaker 4: in a post match press conference, she said, certain moments

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Speaker 4: I feel like they don't need to be broadcast. I

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Speaker 4: tried to go somewhere where I thought there wasn't a

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Speaker 4: camera because I don't necessarily like breaking rackets. I broke

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Speaker 4: one racket at the French Open. This was a few

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Speaker 4: years ago. I said I'd never do it again on

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Speaker 4: court because I don't feel like that's a good representation.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, maybe some conversations can be had. And she

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Speaker 4: said that she wanted to take herself away so that

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Speaker 4: she didn't take it out on her team, and she

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Speaker 4: doesn't like to set a bad example for kids who

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Speaker 4: are watching, who watch someone just lose their temper.

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Speaker 3: Tic tick Coco Goff is.

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Speaker 4: My pictick at the time where recording there's talk of

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Speaker 4: a potential fine fifty thousand dollars.

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Speaker 2: I don't think smashing the racket. Yes, behind the scenes, yes.

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Speaker 4: So if you are playing a Grand Slam. The rules

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Speaker 4: state that players shall not violently, dangerously or with anger, hit, kick,

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Speaker 4: or throw a racket or other equipment within the precincts

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Speaker 4: of the tournament site.

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Speaker 3: Does that why Nick Kurrios stop playing?

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Speaker 4: He's gone quiet, hasn't he?

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Speaker 3: That's a little bit.

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Speaker 4: Now what do we think? I'm not sure what I

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Speaker 4: make of this, because, I mean, do we expect them

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Speaker 4: not to broadcast it? The cameras are there. This is

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Speaker 4: part of the theater of tennis. It's not like a

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Speaker 4: camera chaster in. It's not like a guy with a

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Speaker 4: camera chaster in and invaded her privacy in that way.

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Speaker 4: I think it's fair game. What do you reckon, Amelia?

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Speaker 1: I do think we're just seeing too much these days,

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Speaker 1: just in everything, including the tennis. On the weekend, I

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Speaker 1: was subjected to Novak Djokovic's foot like a closer of

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Speaker 1: his foot as it was getting a band aid put

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Speaker 1: on it, and I just thought, why do.

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Speaker 4: I need to see now, I don't want to google that.

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Speaker 1: Well, you can google feet in your own time, but

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Speaker 1: I don't have to watch them.

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Speaker 5: As the point, I don't know.

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Speaker 4: It's like, isn't this why they are paid so much

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Speaker 4: money because we are going to broadcast them tantrums, feet, injuries,

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Speaker 4: all of it.

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Speaker 3: I have a lot of sympathy for her.

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Speaker 2: She said that she's felt like at this tournament, and

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Speaker 2: she made appointed this tournament dig she feels like the

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Speaker 2: only place where you're not on cameras in the change rooms.

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Speaker 2: And the reason I have a lot of sympathy for

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Speaker 2: I think is that she's trying to play against a

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Speaker 2: lot of stereotypes about because she's really young, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's really young player, about angry women, about all those things.

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Speaker 2: She's trying to play against those stereotypes by keeping her

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Speaker 2: tanty and frustration private and then everyone saw it.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, I would be really pissed off too.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but you could go to the bathroom. You could

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Speaker 4: go to the bathroom, Like I'm thinking, she.

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Speaker 3: Couldn't make it to the bathroom.

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Speaker 4: She was too angry. She was like in NRL, you've

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Speaker 4: got cameras in the locker room. F one you've got

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Speaker 4: broadcasting what they're saying to each other. I think that

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Speaker 4: access is increasing to all sports people like we are

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Speaker 4: seeing them. Certainly the access is and sorry, but we

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Speaker 4: want it, Like look at how viral this footage went.

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Speaker 2: The thing about this is that she will be labeled

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Speaker 2: in some quarters as a tennis brat, right, which is

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Speaker 2: a cliche that is handed around a lot, not only

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Speaker 2: to women, I mean, obviously lots to men that she

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Speaker 2: clearly is actively trying to play against by not taking

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Speaker 2: out on her team, not yelling at people on court,

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Speaker 2: not doing any of those things.

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Speaker 3: And is that fair?

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Speaker 1: I'm going to argue against myself here having said that

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Speaker 1: we see too much. On the other hand, part of

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Speaker 1: the reason why we watch sport is not just for

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Speaker 1: the athletic achievement. It is because it is interesting to

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Speaker 1: us as humans to watch other humans deal with enormous

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Speaker 1: psychological pressure and to see how they deal with it,

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Speaker 1: and sports people try and keep it under wraps in

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Speaker 1: a way that us ordinary people could never do. We

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Speaker 1: were talking before about how Jesse, you and I if

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Speaker 1: we were professional tennis players.

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Speaker 5: We would absolutely be labeled as hottheads.

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Speaker 1: I would absolutely be arguing with the umpire routinely, so

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Speaker 1: I have nothing but sympathy for them. But that's part

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Speaker 1: of why we like watching sport. We like watching people

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Speaker 1: under pressure.

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Speaker 4: I found this incredibly relatable. I didn't judge her for it.

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Speaker 3: I was like, oh, will.

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Speaker 4: And you know, I understand she's trying to play against that.

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Speaker 4: She's a woman. We're a lot harsher on women, not

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Speaker 4: to mention black women. We saw it with the Williams sisters,

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Speaker 4: like the idea that you've got a.

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Speaker 5: Temper that you can't control to a higher stand.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I think tennis in particular, like any sport that's solo,

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Speaker 4: you see these outbursts and they have been part and

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Speaker 4: parcel of what tennis is since the game began.

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Speaker 5: So sny Caveman with fashioning rackets out of tweet.

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Speaker 4: It's whether or not in grass or clay. I mean,

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Speaker 4: I kind of love moments like this. So maybe I'm

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Speaker 4: just a bit of a perf and I just want

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Speaker 4: to see people as this shit.

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Speaker 3: Look.

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Speaker 2: I think Amelia started twenty twenty six thinking maybe there'll

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Speaker 2: be a show sometime where I don't have to do

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Speaker 2: an explainer about some helli ish shit that has been

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Speaker 2: unleashed in America.

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Speaker 3: This week is not that week. Sorry, Amelia.

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Speaker 2: We need you to help us understand what is going

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Speaker 2: on in America right now. If you've been seeing headlines

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Speaker 2: and frankly, very distressing videos all over your feeds about

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Speaker 2: what's going on in Minneapolis at the moment, She's gonna

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Speaker 2: tell us, and we're also going to get a little

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Speaker 2: glimpse into a movie you might be seeing Ads Force,

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Speaker 2: starring the First Lady. But first, Amelia, can we start

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Speaker 2: with the videos. There has been incredibly distressing footage coming

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Speaker 2: out of Minneapolis, not just this week but for a month.

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Speaker 2: But everything seemed to really come to another head on

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Speaker 2: Sunday with the shooting of a young man.

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Speaker 3: Can you tell us a bit about that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're referring to the fact that there've been

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Speaker 1: two civilians killed this month in Minneapolis, which is a

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Speaker 1: city in the state of Minnesota, and both of these

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Speaker 1: killings were captured on mobile phones by many people who

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Speaker 1: were there. The first killing was of a woman named

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Speaker 1: Renee Good. She was a poet, she was a mother

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Speaker 1: of three, and she was in her car talking with

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Speaker 1: an Immigration and Customs enforcement agent. And we'll get to

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Speaker 1: who those people are in a minute, but she actually says.

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Speaker 1: Her last words in the video are she says to

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Speaker 1: this Ice agent, I'm not mad at you, and she

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Speaker 1: is seen visibly turning her car around to get away

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Speaker 1: from him, to get away from this tense confrontation with someone,

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Speaker 1: and then she is shot four times, including in the head,

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Speaker 1: and a man's voice is heard afterwards calling her a

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Speaker 1: fucking bitch'nbelievably distressing, it's very upsetting. And then the second

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Speaker 1: video footage that people may have seen involves the killing

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Speaker 1: of Alex Pretty, who was.

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Speaker 5: Also in his thirties.

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Speaker 1: He was an icy U nurse at a veterans hospital

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Speaker 1: and the video that we've seen there is it's become

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Speaker 1: pretty clear that he was actually attempting to stand in

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Speaker 1: front of a woman who was being gassed by ice agents.

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Speaker 1: He wanted to stop her from getting the gas in her.

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Speaker 5: Eyes, yep.

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Speaker 1: And then he is tackled to the ground by ice

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Speaker 1: agents and then they shot him multiple times after they

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Speaker 1: tackled him. And both of these videos are pretty bad,

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Speaker 1: they're pretty difficult to watch, they're very upsetting, but it's

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Speaker 1: interesting that renee Good was killed in the first week

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Speaker 1: of January Alex Preddy was killed this past weekend, and

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Speaker 1: it does seem that the pretty case is the one

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Speaker 1: that is really turning the tide of public opinion against

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Speaker 1: what the Trump administration is doing in Minneapolis.

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Speaker 3: And what is that?

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Speaker 2: So if we don't understand what these ICE raids are

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Speaker 2: that are bringing sort of protesters and these agents into

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Speaker 2: such close context, well, what is meant to be happening there?

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Speaker 2: What is Trump trying to achieve by sending in these guys.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so Immigrations and Customs enforcement agents, they're called ICE agents.

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Speaker 1: They were sent to Minneapolis in what was called the

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Speaker 1: biggest immigration enforcement action ever. There were two thousand of

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Speaker 1: them who were sent there over the course of January. Now,

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Speaker 1: to put that in context for Australian listeners, Minneapolis is

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Speaker 1: about the size of Canberra population wise, but it's actually

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Speaker 1: much genser. So it's like as if Canberra was sort

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Speaker 1: of packed together population wise about half a million people.

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Speaker 1: So you can imagine that if two armed people came

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Speaker 1: to Canberra and were dragging people out of their homes,

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Speaker 1: arresting people, detaining people because they say that they are

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Speaker 1: in the country illegally. Although there's plenty of evidence that

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Speaker 1: they were also detaining people who were in the country legally.

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Speaker 1: That would be very upsetting for the residents of Canberra,

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Speaker 1: and they might try and do things to help protect

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Speaker 1: their neighbors, as people in Minneapolis are doing so. They

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Speaker 1: are blowing whistles to let neighbors know that ICE agents

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Speaker 1: are coming into their street. They are following ICE agents.

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Speaker 1: The governor of Minnesota, Tim Waaltz, who was Kamala Harris's

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Speaker 1: vice presidential candidate, he has actually asked residents in Minneapolis

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Speaker 1: to get out their phones and to record what the

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Speaker 1: ICE agents are doing. That's part of why we have

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Speaker 1: just so much footage of these shocking killings.

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Speaker 4: So can you tell me who the ICE agents are?

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Speaker 4: Are they like police? Are they separate to police? Who

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Speaker 4: are they working for? Because they just seem like this

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Speaker 4: other species of law enforcement if you would even call

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Speaker 4: it that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they are another species of law enforcement. Look, if

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Speaker 1: you're curious as to who they want to join ICE

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Speaker 1: the Trump administration, I would suggest you go to the

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Speaker 1: website ICE dot gov slash join. I looked at this

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Speaker 1: website last week and it was kind of shocking. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't look like a boring website with government jobs. You

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Speaker 1: know what government websites look like. They're usually pretty boring.

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Speaker 1: There's some sort of like stock art of people standing

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Speaker 1: around a conference table smiling at each other. No, that's

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Speaker 1: not what they have on this website. It's very stark,

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Speaker 1: and there's just this really big text and it reads

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Speaker 1: America has been invaded by criminals and predators. We need

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Speaker 1: you to get them out. You do not need an

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Speaker 1: undergraduate degree. Good news, Holley. So yeah, if you join,

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Speaker 1: And it's pretty clear from this that they just want

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Speaker 1: anyone who feels angry at immigrants to come and join them.

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Speaker 1: The training process has been really shortened ever since the

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Speaker 1: Trump administration decided that immigration enforcement was their nother one priority.

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Speaker 1: So they have allocated more money to US than any

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Speaker 1: military anywhere in the world except the US military. That's

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Speaker 1: how much money they have.

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Speaker 2: And they're moving quickly, right, So they're recruiting these people

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Speaker 2: and sending them out because they've sent them into other

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Speaker 2: cities too, haven't they. So they're sort of moving them

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Speaker 2: around the country almost.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And there is some anecdotal evidence. We know they've

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Speaker 1: really shortened training period for them. So ICE agents used

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Speaker 1: to be trained for sixteen weeks, which I think is

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Speaker 1: a reasonable amount of time for people who are allowed

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Speaker 1: to walk around with guns, like dragging people out of

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Speaker 1: their homes. But that's been shortened to forty seven days,

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Speaker 1: which happens to be the number President Trump is. He's

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Speaker 1: the forty seventh president.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: And that doesn't seem like long enough to train people

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Speaker 1: to use guns and to detain people.

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Speaker 4: And how is it that these videos come up? I

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Speaker 4: have chosen not to watch these videos, but what I

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Speaker 4: have seen is then like press conferences of people in

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Speaker 4: their government denying what's in the videos and saying like, oh,

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Speaker 4: he was a threat, he was armed, she did this,

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Speaker 4: she did that. There seems to be these two counter

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Speaker 4: narratives operating, and neither side can even speak to each

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Speaker 4: other on the basis of fact.

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Speaker 5: So let's get this out of the way. Alex pretty was,

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Speaker 5: in fact armed.

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Speaker 1: He was carrying a gun as the second amen, Yes,

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Speaker 1: he was legally allowed to carry this gun, and it

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Speaker 1: was I guess in his pocket or not visible. And

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Speaker 1: he was holding up his phone in one hand and

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Speaker 1: an open palm in his other. So what the Trump

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Speaker 1: administration has tried to say is that he was coming

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Speaker 1: to this protest to massacre law enforcement. But it turns

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Speaker 1: out from the video that law enforcement didn't know that

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Speaker 1: he had a gun until they tackled him. So the

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Speaker 1: notion that they decided to go after this guy because

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Speaker 1: he was brandishing a gun is not true. The interesting

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Speaker 1: thing about this is that Minneapolis may ring a bell

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Speaker 1: for some listeners as the place where George Floyd was

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Speaker 1: murdered in twenty twenty and which led to the on

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Speaker 1: mass black Lives Matter protests that happened in the American

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Speaker 1: summer of twenty twenty. That murder was committed by Minneapolis

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Speaker 1: police officers. But what's happening now is that the Minneapolis

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Speaker 1: police is saying, we have tried really hard since twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty to build relationships and trust back in the community,

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Speaker 1: and now these ice agents who are separate from the

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Speaker 1: police are coming in, They are brandishing guns, they are

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Speaker 1: detaining people who are in the country legally, and they're

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Speaker 1: eroding a lot of that trust that the police built

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Speaker 1: up with the local community.

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Speaker 5: So that brings us to what's happening.

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Speaker 1: Now, which is that in the last twenty four hours,

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Speaker 1: Trump has basically said, Okay, this went too far, which

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Speaker 1: is fascinating.

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Speaker 2: I've heard a lot of commentary which suggests that the

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Speaker 2: videos and the fact that, for example, the shooting of

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Speaker 2: Alex Prette, you can watch from every angle, right, So

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Speaker 2: you were saying before that Tim Waltz said, go forth

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Speaker 2: and film, and there's something a little bit there's very confronting,

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Speaker 2: but it means that the spinning doesn't work. And I've

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Speaker 2: seen a lot of commentary that's sort of saying that

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Speaker 2: Trump is now looking at those videos and going, I

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Speaker 2: can't satify as raw.

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Speaker 1: And a key component is guess who's mad at him?

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Speaker 1: The National Rifle Association the NRA. These are the people

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Speaker 1: who for years have been pushing this idea that it

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Speaker 1: is Americans god given right to carry guns, as outlined

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Speaker 1: in the Second Amendment. You mentioned Jesse that school shootings

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Speaker 1: happen because there aren't enough good guys with guns, And

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, Trump, a Republican president who is

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Speaker 1: meant to be supported by the NRA, is saying that

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Speaker 1: Alex pretty maybe deserve to be killed because he took

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Speaker 1: a gun to a protest. This has angered them. So

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Speaker 1: you're seeing all these interesting fractures in what used to

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Speaker 1: be a coalition of say the police the NRA, the

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Speaker 1: Republican president, and now that is all being torn apart,

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Speaker 1: and Trump does not like that. He doesn't like feeling

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Speaker 1: like his support base is dwindling, and Americans are saying

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Speaker 1: in polls, we don't want we don't want people meted

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Speaker 1: in the streets like It's fair to point out that

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Speaker 1: a majority of Americans do want an immigration crackdown, that's

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Speaker 1: what they voted for, and they also support ICE agents

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Speaker 1: going into cities and doing this, but what they don't

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Speaker 1: support is killing people.

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Speaker 3: All of this sounds horrific.

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Speaker 2: What I am seeing, though, is a lot of reporting

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Speaker 2: from all kinds of publications in different places saying this

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Speaker 2: is a turning point, This is a breaking point, this

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Speaker 2: is going to be everything's going to change from here,

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Speaker 2: maybe for the good.

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Speaker 3: Maybe Trump's going to back down.

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Speaker 5: Maybe.

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Speaker 2: Why do you think that this particular incident or series

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Speaker 2: of incidents has become quite so? I don't know if

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Speaker 2: important is the right word, but seeing significant.

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Speaker 1: Well, another incident that we haven't talked about, which I

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Speaker 1: think has contributed to the sense that it's a turning point.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you saw that a five year

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Speaker 1: old boy whose father was detained by Ice agents was

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Speaker 1: also detained and CenTra, an immigration facility in Texas. There's

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Speaker 1: photos of him wearing his Spider Man backpack. He's come

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Speaker 1: home from school, his father is being led away by

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Speaker 1: these Ice agents, and by all accounts, his mother, who

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Speaker 1: was in the house where his father was detained, is saying.

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Speaker 5: Please let him stay with me.

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Speaker 1: But the five year old was instead taken away to

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Speaker 1: Texas with his father for who knows how long. So

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Speaker 1: I think the visuals of this are really upsetting. To

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Speaker 1: see this five year old boy in his Spider Man backpack,

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Speaker 1: with this huge looming Ice agent with a covered face

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Speaker 1: and a mask standing over him, and then pushing him

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Speaker 1: into a car. I don't think most Americans like that.

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Speaker 1: I want to be clear. They wanted a crackdown on immigration.

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Speaker 1: There is a perception that immigrants are bringing crime and disorder,

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Speaker 1: particularly to American cities.

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Speaker 5: But I don't think people like to.

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Speaker 1: See a five year old separated from his mother and

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Speaker 1: pushed into the back of a car for doing nothing wrong.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think people like Alex Pretty, who was

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Speaker 1: by all accounts a great guy an icy U nurse,

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Speaker 1: I don't think they like to see him killed in

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Speaker 1: the street either, and this gun component has really scrambled

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Speaker 1: things culturally because for the right, they're very uncomfortable about

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Speaker 1: Trump saying well, he shouldn't have had a gun. That's

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Speaker 1: a really uncomfortable clash of cultures.

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Speaker 2: Okay, onto something that is adjacent but seems ridiculous in comparison.

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Speaker 2: The First Lady has a movie out this week. I

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Speaker 2: hope you've all seen the trailer. This morning, I was

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Speaker 2: getting ready and I had Breakfast TV on in the

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Speaker 2: background and in the ad breaks, I saw several full

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Speaker 2: length Milania trailers out in cinemas January the thirtieth.

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Speaker 4: I've totally miss it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, so I want to hear a bit

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Speaker 3: about this movie.

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Speaker 4: Sorry, Is it out in cinemas in Austria?

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Speaker 3: Is in Australia you can go and see.

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Speaker 4: I can go to Hoyt. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: This is in a break on Sunrise this morning, like

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Speaker 2: out in cinemas in Australia January thirty, they had a

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Speaker 2: screening of this movie. It's going to have its official premiere.

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Speaker 2: I saw in New York a glittering premiere.

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Speaker 5: That's why I'm going to America in a weekend.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think. Also January the twenty ninth New York.

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Speaker 2: But they had a screening at the White House on

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Speaker 2: the night of the Alex Preddie killing in Minneapolis, so

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Speaker 2: things are very heightened there. They still had this screening.

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Speaker 2: Lots of very important people turned up to bend the

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Speaker 2: knee and watch the movie. Amelia, what the frick is

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Speaker 2: going on with the Millennia Trump documentary?

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Speaker 1: You know, if anyone listening to this things, what does

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Speaker 1: she know about this? I'll tell you I am the

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Speaker 1: world's foremost expert on Millannia Trump because I read her

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Speaker 1: memoir and I don't think anyone else.

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Speaker 4: You're the only person I know who read the whole memoir.

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Speaker 4: Everything there is, Tom.

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Speaker 3: If you also watched the whole documentary.

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Speaker 4: Every time she comes up, we're going to be like,

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Speaker 4: we're calling in an expert.

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Speaker 5: And I might have to go. Actually, shall we listen

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Speaker 5: to a little bit of it?

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Speaker 3: Yes? You can.

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Speaker 2: Want will be there, trumph together, we'd like minded leaders.

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Speaker 6: We have a voice.

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Speaker 5: Is it safe?

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Speaker 2: Sure?

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Speaker 1: Everyone wants to know.

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Speaker 3: So here it is, Hi, mister President.

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Speaker 2: Congratulations, I did not Yeah, I will see it on

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Speaker 2: the news.

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Speaker 3: I really want to go see this documentary. What about

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Speaker 3: a team outing? Shall we all go.

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Speaker 5: I think we need to go. Why is the soundtrack

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Speaker 5: like Teams Succession?

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Speaker 4: I know it is. I think it's North Korea. I

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Speaker 4: think that it's some sort of It's like a fascist

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Speaker 4: propaganda film where I can see like the posters coming

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Speaker 4: down and everyone has to do.

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Speaker 2: It's made by Milania, really right bye? Well by Ratner,

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Speaker 2: who's a very terrible person by all accounts.

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Speaker 3: But this is Millania endorsed.

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Speaker 1: Correct, Oh very much mine here endorsed. Amazon paid forty

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Speaker 1: million dollars for it, which will a lot of filmmakers

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Speaker 1: thought was a lot of money for this documentary. I

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Speaker 1: love this quote from a Vogue correspondent who wrote, somehow

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Speaker 1: I know less about this woman's life than I did

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Speaker 1: before I watched this trailer.

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Speaker 4: Is that how you felt after reading the book?

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Speaker 1: No, and you way too much about her after reading

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Speaker 1: the book. I love this bit. I was looking at

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Speaker 1: the news headlines about how the ticket sales were going worldwide.

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Speaker 1: Apparently in the UK ticket sales are soft.

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Speaker 5: Does that surprise you?

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Speaker 2: Holy, I can't imagine why love It'd be as keen

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Speaker 2: as the Wuthering.

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Speaker 4: High Hamna Marti Supreme Millennia.

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Speaker 1: Why don't we see look outliers. If you want us

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Speaker 1: to go and see it, we will do that for you,

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Speaker 1: or I will do it.

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Speaker 5: I don't know about you.

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Speaker 4: No, I'm actually kind of keen after hearing that trailer.

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Speaker 2: I'd quite like to wait for streaming. I don't think

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Speaker 2: I'll have to wait too long.

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Speaker 5: Life in a moment.

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Speaker 1: Reading celebrities text messages makes me feel icky, but I

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Speaker 1: can't look away.

442
00:22:07,234 --> 00:22:08,474
Speaker 3: Louders, It's mea here.

443
00:22:08,514 --> 00:22:09,313
Speaker 5: Do you remember me?

444
00:22:09,914 --> 00:22:11,834
Speaker 6: I am back in your ears twice a week on

445
00:22:11,954 --> 00:22:13,834
Speaker 6: Tuesdays and Thursdays.

446
00:22:13,834 --> 00:22:14,634
Speaker 5: I hope you remember me.

447
00:22:15,074 --> 00:22:19,033
Speaker 6: Exclusively for Mum and Maya subscribers. Yesterday I did a

448
00:22:19,114 --> 00:22:22,914
Speaker 6: Royal rap a wrap up, not a rap dance, although

449
00:22:23,634 --> 00:22:25,793
Speaker 6: Holly and Jesse were in the studio for that one.

450
00:22:25,914 --> 00:22:28,794
Speaker 6: So if you're not already a subscriber, follow the link

451
00:22:28,834 --> 00:22:30,674
Speaker 6: in the show notes to get us in your ears

452
00:22:31,034 --> 00:22:32,314
Speaker 6: five days a week.

453
00:22:33,634 --> 00:22:35,674
Speaker 1: We've been reading a lot of text sent by famous

454
00:22:35,674 --> 00:22:37,154
Speaker 1: people recently. Have you noticed that?

455
00:22:37,514 --> 00:22:37,714
Speaker 3: Oh?

456
00:22:37,754 --> 00:22:40,714
Speaker 1: Yes, it's been fascinating but also a little bit troubling

457
00:22:40,754 --> 00:22:43,594
Speaker 1: to get this peek into their lives. And in many ways,

458
00:22:43,714 --> 00:22:46,154
Speaker 1: what I feel like when I read these text message

459
00:22:46,234 --> 00:22:48,073
Speaker 1: is that they're just like us. They text like us,

460
00:22:48,114 --> 00:22:50,634
Speaker 1: they talk like us. They have the same friendship disputes

461
00:22:50,634 --> 00:22:52,674
Speaker 1: and the same kind of bitch sessions about people in

462
00:22:52,714 --> 00:22:53,154
Speaker 1: their lives.

463
00:22:53,194 --> 00:22:54,314
Speaker 4: That's why it's so mortified.

464
00:22:54,274 --> 00:22:57,394
Speaker 1: That's why I can't look away. And Jamila Jamil has

465
00:22:57,434 --> 00:22:59,834
Speaker 1: popped up in some of these text messages in this

466
00:22:59,994 --> 00:23:03,994
Speaker 1: ongoing Blake Lively Justin Baldoni. It ends with us situation

467
00:23:04,594 --> 00:23:08,593
Speaker 1: because she is best friends with Justin Baldoni's publicist, and

468
00:23:08,714 --> 00:23:11,593
Speaker 1: texts have come out between her and the publicist because

469
00:23:11,634 --> 00:23:13,754
Speaker 1: of the ongoing court case, which I'm not even going

470
00:23:13,834 --> 00:23:15,954
Speaker 1: to pretend to summarize for you, who knows where it

471
00:23:15,994 --> 00:23:16,313
Speaker 1: is at this.

472
00:23:16,314 --> 00:23:19,033
Speaker 2: Point, we're not reading all these text messages because the

473
00:23:19,074 --> 00:23:20,554
Speaker 2: celebrities have willingly.

474
00:23:20,234 --> 00:23:21,194
Speaker 3: Handed the moment right.

475
00:23:21,794 --> 00:23:24,554
Speaker 2: They have been subpoened as part of this very complex

476
00:23:24,754 --> 00:23:25,793
Speaker 2: yes exactly.

477
00:23:26,394 --> 00:23:30,794
Speaker 1: Jamil texted Jennifer Abel, who is the Baldoni publicist, about

478
00:23:30,834 --> 00:23:34,674
Speaker 1: Blake Lively. She said she's such a suicide bomber at

479
00:23:34,674 --> 00:23:37,874
Speaker 1: this point, and she also wrote of Lively, I've never

480
00:23:37,914 --> 00:23:42,114
Speaker 1: seen such a bizarre villain act before. Now I don't

481
00:23:42,114 --> 00:23:44,833
Speaker 1: see any problem with this. I think Jamil is just

482
00:23:44,874 --> 00:23:47,674
Speaker 1: being a supportive friend and I don't think there are

483
00:23:47,674 --> 00:23:50,954
Speaker 1: any winners or heroes in this Blake Lively Justin Baldoni thing,

484
00:23:51,034 --> 00:23:53,154
Speaker 1: And if my best friend was involved in it, I

485
00:23:53,154 --> 00:23:55,194
Speaker 1: would also be complaining about Blake Lively.

486
00:23:55,274 --> 00:23:55,834
Speaker 5: Am I wrong?

487
00:23:56,194 --> 00:23:58,833
Speaker 4: I actually completely agree with you. I saw that Jamila

488
00:23:58,874 --> 00:24:01,234
Speaker 4: Jamil had written a substect about it, and it was like,

489
00:24:01,394 --> 00:24:03,714
Speaker 4: I defend my right to say aweful things.

490
00:24:03,714 --> 00:24:06,674
Speaker 5: Don't women say that? She wasn't allowed to say anything.

491
00:24:06,994 --> 00:24:09,754
Speaker 4: I think people went, hang on, you call yourself a feminist.

492
00:24:09,914 --> 00:24:12,594
Speaker 4: And Blake Lively has come out and said she was

493
00:24:12,594 --> 00:24:16,834
Speaker 4: the victim of sexual harassment and a smear campaign. Justin

494
00:24:16,834 --> 00:24:19,954
Speaker 4: Baldoni has denied those allegations, and that's going to court

495
00:24:19,994 --> 00:24:22,513
Speaker 4: in May. I think there is so much confusion about

496
00:24:22,514 --> 00:24:25,234
Speaker 4: what the court case is even about anymore, and why

497
00:24:25,554 --> 00:24:28,474
Speaker 4: we are reading everyone's text messages all the time. What's

498
00:24:28,554 --> 00:24:32,593
Speaker 4: going critical is that these text messages that Jamila Jamil

499
00:24:32,714 --> 00:24:36,114
Speaker 4: sent were actually sent before any of those allegations came

500
00:24:36,154 --> 00:24:38,394
Speaker 4: to life. So she was just seeing bits of the

501
00:24:38,394 --> 00:24:42,874
Speaker 4: press conference where you'll remember Blake Lively was like, go

502
00:24:42,914 --> 00:24:45,834
Speaker 4: watch it ends with us where your florals, and a

503
00:24:45,874 --> 00:24:49,194
Speaker 4: lot of people saw that as distasteful.

504
00:24:48,714 --> 00:24:51,354
Speaker 2: But also she would have because Abel is her friend,

505
00:24:51,554 --> 00:24:54,474
Speaker 2: she would have known about all the drama that we

506
00:24:54,554 --> 00:24:56,793
Speaker 2: did not yet know about at that time, which was

507
00:24:56,794 --> 00:24:59,154
Speaker 2: the whole Blake Lively tried to hijack the movie Blake

508
00:24:59,234 --> 00:25:02,194
Speaker 2: Lively did a recover on, so she would have known

509
00:25:02,234 --> 00:25:04,634
Speaker 2: about all that, which would inform those comments.

510
00:25:04,714 --> 00:25:08,634
Speaker 4: And now these text messages come to light. Question like

511
00:25:08,754 --> 00:25:11,754
Speaker 4: as even as I was reading these, was like, why

512
00:25:11,794 --> 00:25:13,634
Speaker 4: am I reading these? And what do they have to

513
00:25:13,674 --> 00:25:17,313
Speaker 4: do with anything? And why is her name available?

514
00:25:18,154 --> 00:25:19,314
Speaker 3: That's what she says.

515
00:25:19,194 --> 00:25:22,594
Speaker 1: Also in that sort of document dump where text messages

516
00:25:22,634 --> 00:25:25,234
Speaker 1: between Blake Lively and Taylor Swift and I know Mia

517
00:25:25,354 --> 00:25:27,553
Speaker 1: spoke about this on a Subs episode last week, but

518
00:25:27,634 --> 00:25:31,274
Speaker 1: those texts are like so cringe because it's basically about

519
00:25:31,274 --> 00:25:32,714
Speaker 1: Blake being like are you mad at me?

520
00:25:32,794 --> 00:25:33,914
Speaker 5: Which is a text.

521
00:25:33,594 --> 00:25:35,914
Speaker 1: Every woman has sent a close friend at one point

522
00:25:35,994 --> 00:25:36,394
Speaker 1: or another.

523
00:25:36,994 --> 00:25:38,754
Speaker 5: And what I kept thinking.

524
00:25:38,634 --> 00:25:41,553
Speaker 1: Was, God, this is such proof that we do have

525
00:25:41,594 --> 00:25:43,434
Speaker 1: to be more careful about what we put in writing,

526
00:25:43,514 --> 00:25:46,754
Speaker 1: and none of us, not even the celebrities, are paying

527
00:25:46,834 --> 00:25:47,513
Speaker 1: attention to that.

528
00:25:47,634 --> 00:25:50,794
Speaker 4: We're not being savvy because I was reading those as well,

529
00:25:50,834 --> 00:25:52,874
Speaker 4: and I always think, no, one comes across well when

530
00:25:52,874 --> 00:25:56,954
Speaker 4: they're private. Texts aleaked like no one Taylor Swift almost did.

531
00:25:57,274 --> 00:25:59,994
Speaker 4: I thought that the more I read from Taylor Swift,

532
00:26:00,034 --> 00:26:03,074
Speaker 4: the more I went, Oh, I respect you, I respect

533
00:26:03,194 --> 00:26:05,714
Speaker 4: your She was very forthright. She said, Yeah, I'm a

534
00:26:05,714 --> 00:26:08,033
Speaker 4: bit annoyed because You've been talking to me as though

535
00:26:08,554 --> 00:26:10,314
Speaker 4: I'm on the receiving end of a leegal.

536
00:26:10,594 --> 00:26:11,474
Speaker 5: Eck whipmus test.

537
00:26:11,794 --> 00:26:14,114
Speaker 1: A friend who said to you, Jesse in the past,

538
00:26:14,114 --> 00:26:15,794
Speaker 1: are you annoyed at me? I'm sure someone has said

539
00:26:15,834 --> 00:26:18,714
Speaker 1: that to you. Have you ever responded with, yeah, I'm

540
00:26:18,714 --> 00:26:19,554
Speaker 1: a little bit annoyed.

541
00:26:19,954 --> 00:26:22,553
Speaker 4: No, No, that's why I respect it. That's why I

542
00:26:22,634 --> 00:26:26,994
Speaker 4: was like, good on Taylor for kind of acknowledging because

543
00:26:27,554 --> 00:26:31,074
Speaker 4: Blake is really and I can I can understand that

544
00:26:31,154 --> 00:26:37,194
Speaker 4: Blake Lively is paranoid, traumatized, overwhelmed, the whole world has

545
00:26:37,234 --> 00:26:40,793
Speaker 4: turned against her. But you read her messages and you're like,

546
00:26:40,914 --> 00:26:44,714
Speaker 4: i'd be so annoyed, Like they are quite irritating messages.

547
00:26:45,074 --> 00:26:46,994
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know about that.

548
00:26:47,194 --> 00:26:50,553
Speaker 2: I also was impressed by Taylor Swift's friendship politics handling,

549
00:26:51,154 --> 00:26:53,994
Speaker 2: but also those messages prove that what Justin Baldoni was

550
00:26:54,034 --> 00:26:56,394
Speaker 2: saying was right is that Taylor Swift was very much

551
00:26:56,474 --> 00:26:57,914
Speaker 2: on Blake's side.

552
00:26:57,994 --> 00:27:01,273
Speaker 5: I think what we see in those texts is Blake making.

553
00:27:00,954 --> 00:27:04,914
Speaker 7: A lot of asks of Taylor, say this to justin

554
00:27:05,354 --> 00:27:08,994
Speaker 7: read this script, like watch this cut, and we don't

555
00:27:09,074 --> 00:27:12,474
Speaker 7: actually see Taylor necessarily following through on any of that.

556
00:27:12,594 --> 00:27:14,434
Speaker 4: I can see Taylor feeling used.

557
00:27:14,634 --> 00:27:15,674
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, fair enough.

558
00:27:15,714 --> 00:27:18,154
Speaker 2: But the point I'm thinking about the day that she

559
00:27:18,234 --> 00:27:20,594
Speaker 2: goes over there and then Blake says you were.

560
00:27:20,554 --> 00:27:22,434
Speaker 3: A lion today or whatever.

561
00:27:23,154 --> 00:27:25,634
Speaker 2: I'm thinking about all that stuff before the point, like

562
00:27:25,954 --> 00:27:28,874
Speaker 2: clearly she did stick up for her mate until the

563
00:27:28,954 --> 00:27:30,674
Speaker 2: point where it all became too annoying.

564
00:27:30,954 --> 00:27:34,034
Speaker 3: All well, and then it seems backed away slowly.

565
00:27:34,394 --> 00:27:38,354
Speaker 2: But I think what's interesting about this and the fact,

566
00:27:38,354 --> 00:27:41,914
Speaker 2: like I read Jamila Jamil's newsletter about the horror of

567
00:27:41,954 --> 00:27:45,314
Speaker 2: having your group texts leaked whatever they say, and as

568
00:27:45,314 --> 00:27:47,994
Speaker 2: you've said, we can all respond to that. But one

569
00:27:47,994 --> 00:27:51,074
Speaker 2: of the problems with this is it's so mortifying. It

570
00:27:51,234 --> 00:27:54,354
Speaker 2: can only really have a chilling effect. Like you hear

571
00:27:54,354 --> 00:27:57,514
Speaker 2: people say all the time, why would I, for argument's sake,

572
00:27:57,994 --> 00:28:01,553
Speaker 2: sue my sexually harassing boss If every single message and

573
00:28:01,634 --> 00:28:03,794
Speaker 2: every single thing I've ever said about him, and every

574
00:28:03,834 --> 00:28:06,154
Speaker 2: group text I ever sent to my girlfriends, and maybe

575
00:28:06,234 --> 00:28:08,114
Speaker 2: once I said that I thought he was handsome or

576
00:28:08,114 --> 00:28:10,074
Speaker 2: whatever is all going to come out in court now

577
00:28:10,114 --> 00:28:14,074
Speaker 2: that we all know is very often weaponized. But it's

578
00:28:14,394 --> 00:28:17,794
Speaker 2: very interesting because to your earlier point, Emeli, we all

579
00:28:18,354 --> 00:28:20,714
Speaker 2: like to imagine that what we say online is private,

580
00:28:20,794 --> 00:28:22,754
Speaker 2: but we know and we know, and we know and

581
00:28:22,794 --> 00:28:25,554
Speaker 2: we know that it absolutely is not, and yet we

582
00:28:25,594 --> 00:28:26,514
Speaker 2: can't help ourselves.

583
00:28:26,634 --> 00:28:29,194
Speaker 4: We can't help ourselves. And this is I have had

584
00:28:29,954 --> 00:28:33,313
Speaker 4: friends say this. I know high profile people who have

585
00:28:33,354 --> 00:28:38,114
Speaker 4: said this, that they feel hamstrung that they can't sue

586
00:28:38,354 --> 00:28:40,994
Speaker 4: or pursue something in a court of law because they're like,

587
00:28:41,194 --> 00:28:46,514
Speaker 4: my text message is irrelevant. Text messages will be printed

588
00:28:46,554 --> 00:28:49,354
Speaker 4: and made for public consumption, and no one remembers what

589
00:28:49,394 --> 00:28:52,314
Speaker 4: the court case is even for. So it's like, in

590
00:28:52,434 --> 00:28:55,954
Speaker 4: terms of who is actually behind this court case, it

591
00:28:55,954 --> 00:28:58,274
Speaker 4: would look like Blake Lively is on trial, which I

592
00:28:58,274 --> 00:29:00,194
Speaker 4: suppose you sort of are if you ever bring a

593
00:29:00,234 --> 00:29:01,074
Speaker 4: court case forward.

594
00:29:01,274 --> 00:29:04,114
Speaker 1: Imagine then having your text on the front page of

595
00:29:04,154 --> 00:29:06,674
Speaker 1: the newspaper. And I have to admit it's making me

596
00:29:06,754 --> 00:29:09,274
Speaker 1: really start thinking about the fact that I wish I

597
00:29:09,314 --> 00:29:12,074
Speaker 1: could be more careful in my tones, like.

598
00:29:12,474 --> 00:29:14,914
Speaker 4: Yeah in theory. I think that for thirty seconds and

599
00:29:14,914 --> 00:29:17,354
Speaker 4: then I get on my phone and just like there's

600
00:29:17,394 --> 00:29:19,434
Speaker 4: a bit that Jamila Jamil wrote no newsletter that was

601
00:29:19,514 --> 00:29:22,674
Speaker 4: spot on. She said, sometimes in a moment of hurt

602
00:29:22,754 --> 00:29:25,874
Speaker 4: or weakness, we actually genuinely feel something dark and unfair.

603
00:29:26,154 --> 00:29:28,314
Speaker 4: We just want to say the unsayable in response to

604
00:29:28,354 --> 00:29:30,474
Speaker 4: a culture of thought policing. We want to touch that

605
00:29:30,514 --> 00:29:32,874
Speaker 4: red button. We make duck jokes, we say on savory

606
00:29:32,874 --> 00:29:35,954
Speaker 4: things away from those who could be hurt by our words.

607
00:29:35,994 --> 00:29:37,714
Speaker 4: We want to shock, we want to make someone laugh.

608
00:29:37,754 --> 00:29:39,594
Speaker 4: We want to buy back. We want to be the

609
00:29:39,674 --> 00:29:43,674
Speaker 4: smaller man. We want violence, we want vengeance. And I'm like,

610
00:29:44,034 --> 00:29:44,514
Speaker 4: I get it.

611
00:29:44,674 --> 00:29:47,514
Speaker 3: Don't put it in writing. There's this button on your phone.

612
00:29:47,714 --> 00:29:49,674
Speaker 2: You press it, you get to talk to the person

613
00:29:49,714 --> 00:29:51,394
Speaker 2: that you want to talk to, and you can have.

614
00:29:51,394 --> 00:29:53,274
Speaker 5: Aig old round about it that it is so generic.

615
00:29:54,114 --> 00:29:56,674
Speaker 2: But we avoid all this. If you just call and

616
00:29:56,714 --> 00:29:59,834
Speaker 2: you go putting anything in writing.

617
00:29:59,794 --> 00:30:01,994
Speaker 5: You got to be careful. But holy are you living that?

618
00:30:02,234 --> 00:30:05,114
Speaker 1: Because I'm still a lot of bitch in this day

619
00:30:05,154 --> 00:30:09,394
Speaker 1: and age to say it, But I doult You've got discipline.

620
00:30:08,914 --> 00:30:11,834
Speaker 2: No, not really, but I I don't trust them, you

621
00:30:11,874 --> 00:30:14,594
Speaker 2: know what i mean, Like even without the I mean,

622
00:30:14,634 --> 00:30:16,554
Speaker 2: I'm not a famous person who's going to be invaded,

623
00:30:16,594 --> 00:30:20,154
Speaker 2: but I've got friends who will just randomly add people

624
00:30:20,194 --> 00:30:21,034
Speaker 2: to the group chats in.

625
00:30:21,034 --> 00:30:21,634
Speaker 3: A whole minute.

626
00:30:21,674 --> 00:30:24,954
Speaker 2: And so I'm always thinking, has anyone ever said anything

627
00:30:24,954 --> 00:30:27,034
Speaker 2: about that person back in the history, like is it

628
00:30:27,074 --> 00:30:29,754
Speaker 2: this or that? You know, like none of us ordinary

629
00:30:29,794 --> 00:30:33,114
Speaker 2: people are text savvy enough to protect ourselves from just

630
00:30:33,194 --> 00:30:36,114
Speaker 2: the little fires that will start in our friendship groups.

631
00:30:35,794 --> 00:30:38,274
Speaker 3: And the the snubs.

632
00:30:38,314 --> 00:30:40,274
Speaker 2: And though you had you had a thing and you

633
00:30:40,314 --> 00:30:42,754
Speaker 2: didn't invite me, or like I'd forgotten Betty's in that group,

634
00:30:42,794 --> 00:30:44,474
Speaker 2: but I said this thing about Betty, Like.

635
00:30:44,994 --> 00:30:47,874
Speaker 3: In our tiny little lives, we're not disciplined at all.

636
00:30:47,994 --> 00:30:51,594
Speaker 4: I think as well, there was something so confronting about

637
00:30:51,594 --> 00:30:53,754
Speaker 4: the email that Blake Lively sent Ben.

638
00:30:53,554 --> 00:30:58,114
Speaker 2: Affleck Oh that to me was the most cringing to

639
00:30:58,154 --> 00:31:02,034
Speaker 2: do with anything. Just for a tiny bit of context,

640
00:31:02,034 --> 00:31:04,914
Speaker 2: I know it's all too complicated, but basically it is

641
00:31:04,994 --> 00:31:08,274
Speaker 2: true that Blake and Ryan Reynolds, her husband, took a

642
00:31:08,354 --> 00:31:10,674
Speaker 2: cut of the movie from Justin Balderoni and.

643
00:31:10,674 --> 00:31:11,394
Speaker 3: Redid it right?

644
00:31:11,394 --> 00:31:13,674
Speaker 2: They basically did, and there's a lot of chitty chat

645
00:31:13,714 --> 00:31:16,114
Speaker 2: about that, and then they sent it to all of

646
00:31:16,154 --> 00:31:19,114
Speaker 2: their famous friends and said, give us feedback, tell us

647
00:31:19,114 --> 00:31:19,594
Speaker 2: what you think.

648
00:31:19,634 --> 00:31:22,234
Speaker 3: But the cringe worthiness of the language, the.

649
00:31:22,274 --> 00:31:25,154
Speaker 4: Language, and I think that it's because we probably see

650
00:31:25,154 --> 00:31:27,674
Speaker 4: some of ourselves in it, right, is because we've all

651
00:31:27,714 --> 00:31:30,194
Speaker 4: asked for favors from people in the industry, and we

652
00:31:30,274 --> 00:31:32,434
Speaker 4: know that in order to ask those favors, we have

653
00:31:32,554 --> 00:31:35,314
Speaker 4: to absolutely grovel, And.

654
00:31:35,714 --> 00:31:38,754
Speaker 1: So it's not so much even like the favors. What

655
00:31:38,834 --> 00:31:41,034
Speaker 1: I related to is we've all been in a situation

656
00:31:41,074 --> 00:31:43,634
Speaker 1: where we cannot stop thinking about something where we feel

657
00:31:43,674 --> 00:31:46,554
Speaker 1: we have been uniquely agreed and you can't stop talking

658
00:31:46,554 --> 00:31:47,834
Speaker 1: to every person in your life.

659
00:31:47,874 --> 00:31:48,354
Speaker 3: Yeahbout it?

660
00:31:48,474 --> 00:31:49,234
Speaker 5: Yeah, And that's why.

661
00:31:49,274 --> 00:31:52,034
Speaker 4: And it's being printed. So she's like, Ben, it's Blake,

662
00:31:52,074 --> 00:31:55,074
Speaker 4: don't hang up. I'm writing with a zero pressure ask

663
00:31:55,434 --> 00:31:58,594
Speaker 4: I've just come out the other side of well, almost

664
00:31:58,674 --> 00:32:01,074
Speaker 4: the most upsetting experience I've ever had on a movie.

665
00:32:01,554 --> 00:32:03,714
Speaker 4: And then she kind of makes these jokes and then

666
00:32:03,714 --> 00:32:07,274
Speaker 4: she says Ryan has asked Matt Damon to watch as well.

667
00:32:07,514 --> 00:32:10,034
Speaker 4: Can you believe Jason Bourne is watching my movie. I'll

668
00:32:10,034 --> 00:32:11,874
Speaker 4: get you an autograph one day, don't worry you.

669
00:32:11,914 --> 00:32:17,834
Speaker 1: Just it's that meme of ben Affleck with the cigarette

670
00:32:17,874 --> 00:32:20,194
Speaker 1: and the duncan you know, head up?

671
00:32:20,234 --> 00:32:23,554
Speaker 4: And he's just and you know that ben Affleck got

672
00:32:23,554 --> 00:32:24,074
Speaker 4: that email.

673
00:32:24,434 --> 00:32:27,074
Speaker 5: He's dealing with the two Jennifers. He can't deal with

674
00:32:27,114 --> 00:32:27,634
Speaker 5: this as well.

675
00:32:27,674 --> 00:32:29,434
Speaker 4: And he's savvy enough to pick up the phone and

676
00:32:29,434 --> 00:32:32,394
Speaker 4: he called Matt. He went, Matte, have you got this

677
00:32:32,554 --> 00:32:36,514
Speaker 4: fucking email from Blake? Are you actually watching it? I

678
00:32:36,554 --> 00:32:39,034
Speaker 4: Am not getting dragged into this. I have enough drama

679
00:32:39,114 --> 00:32:39,954
Speaker 4: going on right now. No.

680
00:32:40,034 --> 00:32:41,274
Speaker 5: But you know why Matt.

681
00:32:41,114 --> 00:32:44,234
Speaker 1: Responded because she was savvy enough just to send the

682
00:32:44,314 --> 00:32:46,394
Speaker 1: message to Matt, to Matt and his wife.

683
00:32:46,794 --> 00:32:50,114
Speaker 5: And women feel a need to respond to emails. Yes,

684
00:32:50,554 --> 00:32:51,314
Speaker 5: And Matt.

685
00:32:51,154 --> 00:32:55,394
Speaker 1: Damon's wife dautifully responded and hit the ball back and

686
00:32:55,514 --> 00:32:58,914
Speaker 1: bothered with Blake because women take on that emotional.

687
00:32:58,554 --> 00:32:59,914
Speaker 5: Letter of correspondence. Yeah.

688
00:32:59,954 --> 00:33:02,634
Speaker 2: The thing that's most surprising to me after reading all

689
00:33:02,674 --> 00:33:05,154
Speaker 2: this is that that movie ever came out, that they

690
00:33:05,194 --> 00:33:06,954
Speaker 2: ever thought no one was going to find out about

691
00:33:06,994 --> 00:33:10,074
Speaker 2: all that it was a massive hit. Because also the

692
00:33:10,154 --> 00:33:12,314
Speaker 2: hypocrisy of Hollywood is on clear display.

693
00:33:13,194 --> 00:33:15,274
Speaker 4: If you'll allow me. I would like to update you

694
00:33:15,354 --> 00:33:18,834
Speaker 4: both on the status of the Brooklyn Beckham v. Please

695
00:33:19,034 --> 00:33:21,474
Speaker 4: please Beckham brand feud right.

696
00:33:21,514 --> 00:33:23,914
Speaker 3: It obsessed us all for a few days. And then

697
00:33:23,954 --> 00:33:27,034
Speaker 3: have you moved on? I was a little bit moved on,

698
00:33:27,234 --> 00:33:29,274
Speaker 3: but I I still want to know what's no no.

699
00:33:29,314 --> 00:33:32,554
Speaker 4: I thought I'd moved on, and then Tory put a

700
00:33:32,594 --> 00:33:34,554
Speaker 4: picture up with the Spice girls and I have not

701
00:33:34,634 --> 00:33:37,874
Speaker 4: moved on. I have still heavily invested. So firstly, two

702
00:33:37,914 --> 00:33:41,114
Speaker 4: of Brooklyn's ex girlfriends have come out in support of him.

703
00:33:41,194 --> 00:33:42,314
Speaker 5: This is so damning.

704
00:33:42,474 --> 00:33:45,794
Speaker 4: This is damning, Like I keep wondering if the ex

705
00:33:45,834 --> 00:33:47,474
Speaker 4: girlfriends reached out to Brooklyn first.

706
00:33:47,674 --> 00:33:50,074
Speaker 1: I'm not speaking out against my like in support of

707
00:33:50,074 --> 00:33:51,274
Speaker 1: my ex's on literally.

708
00:33:52,794 --> 00:33:57,154
Speaker 4: Okay, So the first one Aften McKeith. I used to

709
00:33:57,194 --> 00:34:00,034
Speaker 4: watch this show called like Embarrassing Bodies or something in

710
00:34:00,074 --> 00:34:01,914
Speaker 4: the UK, and I'm pretty sure her mum was on

711
00:34:01,994 --> 00:34:04,714
Speaker 4: it and she was anyway, I'm obsessed with this. Google

712
00:34:04,794 --> 00:34:05,994
Speaker 4: her mum. She's famous.

713
00:34:06,554 --> 00:34:06,954
Speaker 5: Often.

714
00:34:07,354 --> 00:34:10,513
Speaker 4: Keith dated Brooklyn in twenty seventeen and she saw these

715
00:34:10,554 --> 00:34:13,194
Speaker 4: Instagram stories last week and then she went, you know who,

716
00:34:13,194 --> 00:34:15,873
Speaker 4: I need to talk to the Sun so she called

717
00:34:15,914 --> 00:34:17,634
Speaker 4: up the Sun and she said it was hard for

718
00:34:17,714 --> 00:34:20,274
Speaker 4: him growing up. There are two sides to every story,

719
00:34:20,354 --> 00:34:22,913
Speaker 4: but I know growing up in the spotlight was very

720
00:34:22,994 --> 00:34:26,674
Speaker 4: challenging for him. And she recalled that whenever he got

721
00:34:26,674 --> 00:34:29,474
Speaker 4: his picture taken by the paparazzi, he was really upset.

722
00:34:29,594 --> 00:34:33,433
Speaker 4: She talked about his anxiety and how his parents were

723
00:34:33,474 --> 00:34:37,594
Speaker 4: away a lot and that left him feeling isolated. Then

724
00:34:37,794 --> 00:34:42,834
Speaker 4: another ex named Talia Storm, who was Brooklyn's teenage girlfriend.

725
00:34:42,914 --> 00:34:45,074
Speaker 3: Talia storm yame love it.

726
00:34:45,314 --> 00:34:48,114
Speaker 4: Victoria is, like I thought I'd heard the last view

727
00:34:48,154 --> 00:34:53,914
Speaker 4: Talia Storm. Well, apparently Victoria never liked her. She Talia

728
00:34:54,274 --> 00:34:57,314
Speaker 4: called the Mirror and she said, my first wife, Victoria

729
00:34:57,394 --> 00:35:00,953
Speaker 4: never liked She said. My first thought was good for him.

730
00:35:00,994 --> 00:35:03,314
Speaker 4: People have all heard a million stories over the years,

731
00:35:03,314 --> 00:35:06,033
Speaker 4: and I just thank God, bless Brooklyn for coming out

732
00:35:06,034 --> 00:35:07,114
Speaker 4: and sticking up for himself.

733
00:35:07,154 --> 00:35:07,434
Speaker 5: Elf.

734
00:35:07,474 --> 00:35:11,554
Speaker 4: I think he's just had enough. So this is all happening.

735
00:35:11,914 --> 00:35:13,873
Speaker 4: And then the Spice.

736
00:35:13,634 --> 00:35:14,594
Speaker 5: Girls picture drops.

737
00:35:14,714 --> 00:35:17,354
Speaker 4: So Victoria Beckham, I guess she's at an event or

738
00:35:17,354 --> 00:35:18,834
Speaker 4: something and she's.

739
00:35:18,554 --> 00:35:23,714
Speaker 3: With somebody babies, babies, baby, okay.

740
00:35:23,314 --> 00:35:26,754
Speaker 4: And so more of them. Look I am a little bit.

741
00:35:29,154 --> 00:35:31,033
Speaker 5: Jerry was there, Jerry was there. One of the main

742
00:35:31,554 --> 00:35:31,993
Speaker 5: wasn't there.

743
00:35:32,074 --> 00:35:33,754
Speaker 4: Okay, That's what I need to ask you about because

744
00:35:33,794 --> 00:35:36,194
Speaker 4: I'm a little bit rusty on my Spice girl's law.

745
00:35:37,034 --> 00:35:37,794
Speaker 4: Is there friction?

746
00:35:37,994 --> 00:35:38,993
Speaker 5: They don't like each other?

747
00:35:39,554 --> 00:35:42,114
Speaker 4: Okay, so we had they all showed.

748
00:35:41,874 --> 00:35:45,234
Speaker 5: Up for Jerry's fiftieth. I need to point that out. Okay,

749
00:35:45,274 --> 00:35:48,074
Speaker 5: maybe baby's actually not easy to get along with.

750
00:35:48,194 --> 00:35:48,634
Speaker 1: I don't know.

751
00:35:48,834 --> 00:35:51,234
Speaker 4: Okay, because there were four of the five Spice Girls

752
00:35:51,274 --> 00:35:54,513
Speaker 4: and everyone got very excited about that. And then I

753
00:35:54,554 --> 00:35:58,393
Speaker 4: think Victoria got given an award that's also a by

754
00:35:58,394 --> 00:36:01,314
Speaker 4: the French. Everyone was there, lots of picture the.

755
00:36:01,234 --> 00:36:03,514
Speaker 1: Best people to give you awards because it always happens

756
00:36:03,514 --> 00:36:04,674
Speaker 1: in like a fancy chateau.

757
00:36:04,994 --> 00:36:09,274
Speaker 2: Yes, told us everything about the Beckham strategy. They are

758
00:36:09,354 --> 00:36:13,154
Speaker 2: keeping calm and carrying on because basically, although everybody said

759
00:36:13,194 --> 00:36:14,553
Speaker 2: last week and we talked about this on the show,

760
00:36:14,594 --> 00:36:17,714
Speaker 2: oh David, he's responded in Davos, he didn't. He just

761
00:36:17,794 --> 00:36:19,513
Speaker 2: had that on the schedule and he had to do it.

762
00:36:19,874 --> 00:36:23,274
Speaker 2: This Paris thing is very much. She did what she

763
00:36:23,274 --> 00:36:26,834
Speaker 2: would have always done. Everybody went, everybody wore their nice dresses,

764
00:36:26,914 --> 00:36:29,754
Speaker 2: everybody smiled at the camera, the sons, the girlfriend's harper.

765
00:36:30,154 --> 00:36:34,114
Speaker 2: She is just keep the playbook, keep going faces forward,

766
00:36:34,234 --> 00:36:36,274
Speaker 2: everybody spit wash your face.

767
00:36:36,474 --> 00:36:37,234
Speaker 3: We're getting on with it.

768
00:36:37,394 --> 00:36:38,674
Speaker 4: Do you reckon We're done?

769
00:36:38,994 --> 00:36:41,913
Speaker 2: I think from the Beckham side, I do not think

770
00:36:41,914 --> 00:36:43,794
Speaker 2: they are about to spill their guts. I don't think

771
00:36:43,794 --> 00:36:47,194
Speaker 2: Brooklyn's done because Brooklyn and Nikola have got a huge

772
00:36:47,234 --> 00:36:51,474
Speaker 2: boost from this publicity wise, because as often discussed, what

773
00:36:51,674 --> 00:36:55,234
Speaker 2: do they do right? So their profile is brasing.

774
00:36:56,074 --> 00:36:57,634
Speaker 5: Holly, you have the hot sauce?

775
00:36:57,674 --> 00:37:00,234
Speaker 1: Do you know how many iterations there were before on

776
00:37:00,274 --> 00:37:02,994
Speaker 1: the right formula trying your hot sauce?

777
00:37:02,994 --> 00:37:04,554
Speaker 2: I nearly run out of it and I will be

778
00:37:04,634 --> 00:37:06,794
Speaker 2: sad when that happens, because it's fricking delicious.

779
00:37:06,794 --> 00:37:08,034
Speaker 3: But that's true. Okay.

780
00:37:08,074 --> 00:37:11,154
Speaker 2: So apart from test out hot saws in one of

781
00:37:11,194 --> 00:37:13,954
Speaker 2: their many mansions, what do they do? So this is

782
00:37:13,994 --> 00:37:16,314
Speaker 2: great for them? And as we talked about last week,

783
00:37:16,354 --> 00:37:17,834
Speaker 2: apparently the rumors of the book.

784
00:37:17,714 --> 00:37:21,514
Speaker 4: Are headlines great which books all?

785
00:37:22,194 --> 00:37:24,514
Speaker 2: Nicola will do a tell all that Brooklyn will do

786
00:37:24,514 --> 00:37:29,154
Speaker 2: a Harry. Basically, no, I think the Brooklyn will write

787
00:37:29,154 --> 00:37:31,873
Speaker 2: oh good. But I think that these things are all.

788
00:37:32,074 --> 00:37:34,354
Speaker 2: I don't think that Brooklyn has done. But I think

789
00:37:34,394 --> 00:37:38,874
Speaker 2: that for now we've seen the Beckhams decide to keep going.

790
00:37:39,954 --> 00:37:42,354
Speaker 2: And there was a little bit of shade thrown by

791
00:37:42,394 --> 00:37:46,034
Speaker 2: the boys. They posted a TikTok cruise and Romeo with

792
00:37:46,114 --> 00:37:47,954
Speaker 2: their girlfriends and Harper I think in the back of

793
00:37:47,994 --> 00:37:50,553
Speaker 2: the car and they were doing some silly TikTok trend

794
00:37:50,594 --> 00:37:52,634
Speaker 2: and it was like, imagine hating and we're just here

795
00:37:52,674 --> 00:37:55,914
Speaker 2: like that. But I mean it wasn't exactly skating. No,

796
00:37:56,234 --> 00:37:58,794
Speaker 2: I think they're going to keep trying. I just imagine

797
00:37:58,794 --> 00:38:01,114
Speaker 2: that Vicky is telling those boys every day Romeo and

798
00:38:01,514 --> 00:38:02,474
Speaker 2: do not do not.

799
00:38:02,674 --> 00:38:04,873
Speaker 3: I don't want to hear it. No posting, but they're

800
00:38:04,914 --> 00:38:06,834
Speaker 3: going I hate him.

801
00:38:07,114 --> 00:38:07,873
Speaker 1: What are.

802
00:38:09,834 --> 00:38:10,554
Speaker 3: After the break?

803
00:38:10,834 --> 00:38:13,434
Speaker 2: What is the right way to show up in public

804
00:38:13,634 --> 00:38:18,474
Speaker 2: after your partner has publicly humiliated you. An Australian influencer

805
00:38:18,714 --> 00:38:26,394
Speaker 2: has a new playbook for us.

806
00:38:27,674 --> 00:38:30,034
Speaker 3: Friends, gather around. I have a story and a question.

807
00:38:31,234 --> 00:38:32,074
Speaker 3: This story was.

808
00:38:32,114 --> 00:38:35,674
Speaker 2: Absolutely everywhere over Christmas and New Year when we were

809
00:38:35,674 --> 00:38:36,114
Speaker 2: not on the.

810
00:38:36,074 --> 00:38:38,393
Speaker 4: Air, right I totally missed it. I came back, I

811
00:38:38,434 --> 00:38:41,194
Speaker 4: heard bits and pieces and I'm desperate for you to

812
00:38:41,234 --> 00:38:41,754
Speaker 4: fill me in.

813
00:38:42,714 --> 00:38:44,993
Speaker 2: We also one of the reasons why we haven't talked

814
00:38:44,994 --> 00:38:46,594
Speaker 2: about it is also because it is a bit icky,

815
00:38:46,994 --> 00:38:49,194
Speaker 2: but it keeps getting more public. So we are going

816
00:38:49,234 --> 00:38:51,474
Speaker 2: to talk about it because I think there are some

817
00:38:51,594 --> 00:38:55,754
Speaker 2: lessons in here for us all. When your relationship explodes

818
00:38:55,794 --> 00:38:59,594
Speaker 2: in spectacular fashion and you are betrayed and humiliated, whether

819
00:38:59,634 --> 00:39:02,354
Speaker 2: that's either in your little community, because this is something.

820
00:39:02,114 --> 00:39:03,554
Speaker 3: Like, you've still got to show up at work.

821
00:39:03,754 --> 00:39:06,473
Speaker 2: Everybody knows that your marriage has gone through a bad time, whatever,

822
00:39:06,514 --> 00:39:07,913
Speaker 2: You've still got to show up at the schoolgate. You

823
00:39:07,954 --> 00:39:09,554
Speaker 2: still got to go whatever it is right. You know,

824
00:39:09,554 --> 00:39:12,473
Speaker 2: people talking about how are you meant to behave when

825
00:39:12,474 --> 00:39:15,114
Speaker 2: you're the wronged woman? Are you meant to a hideaway?

826
00:39:15,554 --> 00:39:18,674
Speaker 2: Lick your wounds, protect your peace? You might have some

827
00:39:18,834 --> 00:39:22,674
Speaker 2: shame attached to it. Let that fade, reassure the kids

828
00:39:22,674 --> 00:39:26,434
Speaker 2: everything's going to be fine, or do you go hard relaunch?

829
00:39:26,514 --> 00:39:29,674
Speaker 3: I will survive. Fuck you all of that stuff. The

830
00:39:29,714 --> 00:39:32,634
Speaker 3: Lily Allen Roote, We could call it the Lily Allen Root.

831
00:39:32,994 --> 00:39:36,873
Speaker 2: Tabloid readers and Instagram scrollers have been watching this particular

832
00:39:36,914 --> 00:39:40,794
Speaker 2: decision being made in real time by Australian influencer.

833
00:39:41,154 --> 00:39:42,594
Speaker 3: She used to be called a wag.

834
00:39:42,674 --> 00:39:44,594
Speaker 2: She hates being called a wag, but all the wags

835
00:39:44,594 --> 00:39:47,274
Speaker 2: hate being called a wag. She is a wag or

836
00:39:47,314 --> 00:39:52,314
Speaker 2: she was Jules Neil? Right, she has picked aside and

837
00:39:52,354 --> 00:39:54,954
Speaker 2: she's picked the second one and yesterday she went publics

838
00:39:54,994 --> 00:39:55,154
Speaker 2: with it.

839
00:39:55,274 --> 00:39:56,953
Speaker 3: Do you know who I'm talking about when I said

840
00:39:56,994 --> 00:39:57,754
Speaker 3: Jules Neil.

841
00:39:57,634 --> 00:40:00,433
Speaker 4: I had never heard her name before this morning. Who

842
00:40:00,674 --> 00:40:03,114
Speaker 4: was she married too? Or is she married?

843
00:40:03,234 --> 00:40:06,434
Speaker 2: Jules Neil is married to Lucky Neil. He's an AFL

844
00:40:06,434 --> 00:40:09,234
Speaker 2: player and he's a big deal AFL player. Until a

845
00:40:09,234 --> 00:40:11,553
Speaker 2: hot minute ago, he was captain of the Brisbane Lines.

846
00:40:11,594 --> 00:40:14,634
Speaker 2: The Brisbane Lines won the premiership last year, so he's

847
00:40:14,914 --> 00:40:18,594
Speaker 2: the lead player in the most successful team in the country.

848
00:40:18,874 --> 00:40:20,314
Speaker 2: He's won the Brownlow twice.

849
00:40:20,394 --> 00:40:21,514
Speaker 3: He's a big deal. Okay.

850
00:40:22,154 --> 00:40:25,354
Speaker 2: His wife is called Jules Neil. They were teenage sweethearts.

851
00:40:25,354 --> 00:40:28,314
Speaker 2: They have been together forever. They are from Perth. They

852
00:40:28,354 --> 00:40:30,634
Speaker 2: got married in twenty eighteen. They've got two little kids

853
00:40:30,674 --> 00:40:33,234
Speaker 2: under four. She is a bit of an influencer, not

854
00:40:33,394 --> 00:40:36,634
Speaker 2: like a big deal influencer, but like she's always had

855
00:40:36,674 --> 00:40:38,634
Speaker 2: a quite a public profile, posting.

856
00:40:38,274 --> 00:40:39,874
Speaker 3: About their lifestyle and the babies.

857
00:40:39,874 --> 00:40:42,393
Speaker 2: And obviously they moved to Brisbane and when they moved

858
00:40:42,434 --> 00:40:46,394
Speaker 2: to Brisbane, she became really good friends with Tess Crosley,

859
00:40:46,914 --> 00:40:50,834
Speaker 2: who was an influencer and entrepreneur and interestingly a former

860
00:40:50,874 --> 00:40:51,714
Speaker 2: Mormon missionary.

861
00:40:51,714 --> 00:40:54,154
Speaker 3: We won't go down that rabbit hole, but oh my god,

862
00:40:54,274 --> 00:40:54,834
Speaker 3: I love that.

863
00:40:56,114 --> 00:40:58,634
Speaker 2: And as beck Day wrote on Mama Mia this week,

864
00:40:58,754 --> 00:41:02,314
Speaker 2: the pair were the ultimate influencer BFFs, posting together from

865
00:41:02,354 --> 00:41:05,393
Speaker 2: AFL red carpets, lux holidays, and footy games, as well

866
00:41:05,434 --> 00:41:08,634
Speaker 2: as for a time co hosting a podcast together where

867
00:41:08,634 --> 00:41:11,274
Speaker 2: they discussed their lives, fashion, and the reality for Jewels

868
00:41:11,314 --> 00:41:14,594
Speaker 2: being in the AFL spotlight. The two families social media

869
00:41:14,674 --> 00:41:18,873
Speaker 2: was intertwined, shared holidays, social outings, and dinners populating both

870
00:41:18,874 --> 00:41:21,874
Speaker 2: women's feeds. I bet you can guess what's going to happen.

871
00:41:22,114 --> 00:41:24,154
Speaker 2: Apparently they live five minutes away from each other and

872
00:41:24,194 --> 00:41:28,154
Speaker 2: everything's cozy until in December, Instagram detectives noticed that the

873
00:41:28,194 --> 00:41:30,834
Speaker 2: pair had unfollowed each other and that Jewels.

874
00:41:30,554 --> 00:41:32,834
Speaker 3: Had deleted all the pictures of tests from her feed.

875
00:41:33,234 --> 00:41:36,194
Speaker 2: And then in December, Jewles abruptly moves back to Perth

876
00:41:36,234 --> 00:41:38,594
Speaker 2: with the kids. So Lockey's wife moves back to Perth,

877
00:41:39,034 --> 00:41:41,754
Speaker 2: and when stories started to appear about this, she posted

878
00:41:41,794 --> 00:41:44,714
Speaker 2: on Instagram story. This is why this has become very

879
00:41:44,754 --> 00:41:47,994
Speaker 2: popul because she commented She posted on an Instagram story

880
00:41:48,314 --> 00:41:52,154
Speaker 2: Brooklyn Beckham style, outlining in no uncertain terms where she

881
00:41:52,194 --> 00:41:55,073
Speaker 2: stood with the separation. I want to make it very

882
00:41:55,114 --> 00:41:58,674
Speaker 2: clear that I am not working through anything she posted.

883
00:41:59,154 --> 00:42:03,314
Speaker 2: I have been betrayed in the most unimaginable way. All

884
00:42:03,354 --> 00:42:05,274
Speaker 2: I can do now is try to heal and do

885
00:42:05,314 --> 00:42:10,274
Speaker 2: what's best for my children. And the tabloid world went so.

886
00:42:10,554 --> 00:42:15,393
Speaker 4: The translation is that Lockeye, the football captain, has had

887
00:42:15,914 --> 00:42:16,594
Speaker 4: an affair.

888
00:42:16,714 --> 00:42:20,393
Speaker 2: Well, nothing has been confirmed in that way, but if

889
00:42:20,394 --> 00:42:24,154
Speaker 2: we would expect, stories fly that another footballer's partner found

890
00:42:24,194 --> 00:42:26,194
Speaker 2: Locke and Tess in a car together.

891
00:42:25,954 --> 00:42:27,674
Speaker 3: Told Jules and all hell bros.

892
00:42:27,754 --> 00:42:31,554
Speaker 2: Right, that's never been confirmed. But what definitely did happen,

893
00:42:31,594 --> 00:42:34,194
Speaker 2: which tells us that we all know something really happened,

894
00:42:34,514 --> 00:42:36,794
Speaker 2: is that Locke quits his job. He is still playing,

895
00:42:36,834 --> 00:42:38,953
Speaker 2: to be clear, but he gave up his captaincy, which

896
00:42:38,994 --> 00:42:41,274
Speaker 2: is a big deal when you rise to that point.

897
00:42:41,754 --> 00:42:44,674
Speaker 2: He's got the most high profile job in all of AFL.

898
00:42:44,754 --> 00:42:47,274
Speaker 2: And on January the second, I think earlier this year,

899
00:42:47,674 --> 00:42:50,274
Speaker 2: he stands up and gives a press conference where he

900
00:42:50,434 --> 00:42:54,114
Speaker 2: confirmed he'd done something, and he stepped down as captain confirmed.

901
00:42:54,914 --> 00:42:57,834
Speaker 2: He says this, I can confirm that Jules and I

902
00:42:57,874 --> 00:43:01,354
Speaker 2: have separated. I have let my family down. He's standing

903
00:43:01,394 --> 00:43:03,354
Speaker 2: in front of a camera with all the mics and

904
00:43:03,474 --> 00:43:05,514
Speaker 2: all the all of the media in front of him

905
00:43:05,514 --> 00:43:08,033
Speaker 2: when he says this, and I have let my family down,

906
00:43:08,034 --> 00:43:10,674
Speaker 2: and I apologize for my actions which have hurt those

907
00:43:10,714 --> 00:43:13,873
Speaker 2: closest to me. I accept that this is a consequence

908
00:43:13,914 --> 00:43:16,114
Speaker 2: of my actions, and I need to rebuild the trust

909
00:43:16,194 --> 00:43:18,634
Speaker 2: with Jules, who is in Perth and nowhere near him.

910
00:43:19,194 --> 00:43:19,794
Speaker 3: Are you with me?

911
00:43:20,154 --> 00:43:21,393
Speaker 4: I am so with you?

912
00:43:21,434 --> 00:43:21,794
Speaker 5: Okay.

913
00:43:22,394 --> 00:43:25,554
Speaker 2: Ever since juwles Neil, everybody's looking at her right, So

914
00:43:25,594 --> 00:43:27,634
Speaker 2: this story is all over the Daily Mail and news

915
00:43:27,634 --> 00:43:30,834
Speaker 2: dot Com and all over Instagram and everywhere, and everyone's

916
00:43:30,834 --> 00:43:32,434
Speaker 2: looking at juwles Neil to go what's she going to

917
00:43:32,474 --> 00:43:34,953
Speaker 2: say next? And she's been giving a bit of a

918
00:43:34,994 --> 00:43:38,194
Speaker 2: masterclass in refusing to play the wronged wife. Really, she's

919
00:43:38,194 --> 00:43:41,874
Speaker 2: been like tiktoking vision boards of nights with the girls

920
00:43:42,314 --> 00:43:46,114
Speaker 2: sipping wine with like Olivia Dean songs playing in the background, with.

921
00:43:46,154 --> 00:43:47,634
Speaker 5: A really great shaguitary board.

922
00:43:47,794 --> 00:43:50,794
Speaker 2: Yes, Taylor swift song's playing in the background, and then

923
00:43:50,834 --> 00:43:53,553
Speaker 2: she signed with a talent agency. There have been think

924
00:43:53,634 --> 00:43:56,234
Speaker 2: pieces about how she's rejecting the shame of a public

925
00:43:56,314 --> 00:43:59,274
Speaker 2: cheating scandal, and then also people saying she shouldn't have

926
00:43:59,314 --> 00:44:01,754
Speaker 2: gone public at all because somebody think of the children.

927
00:44:02,074 --> 00:44:05,034
Speaker 2: And then this morning the Daily Mail carries this story,

928
00:44:05,154 --> 00:44:07,074
Speaker 2: which is also on the front page of The Age,

929
00:44:07,154 --> 00:44:11,634
Speaker 2: inexplicably on every morning TV news bulletin, which sounds a

930
00:44:11,634 --> 00:44:13,834
Speaker 2: bit like it's out of Bridgington, which is the former

931
00:44:13,874 --> 00:44:17,034
Speaker 2: wag stepped out at the Australian Open in Melbourne on Tuesday,

932
00:44:17,394 --> 00:44:20,074
Speaker 2: making her society debut as a single woman.

933
00:44:20,234 --> 00:44:23,074
Speaker 1: Stepped out is the greatest. We need to do more

934
00:44:23,114 --> 00:44:23,834
Speaker 1: stepping out.

935
00:44:23,994 --> 00:44:25,834
Speaker 4: I know I never stepped out.

936
00:44:26,514 --> 00:44:28,874
Speaker 2: Now, I know that Jules Neil is a real person

937
00:44:28,914 --> 00:44:32,354
Speaker 2: and she is building her career back up. I know

938
00:44:32,474 --> 00:44:35,194
Speaker 2: that these people aren't normal though in terms of the

939
00:44:35,234 --> 00:44:39,074
Speaker 2: amount of attention that's on this, the level of public

940
00:44:39,114 --> 00:44:41,434
Speaker 2: interest isn't normal. But what I can tell you is

941
00:44:41,474 --> 00:44:44,274
Speaker 2: that when any big split happens in a friend group

942
00:44:44,394 --> 00:44:47,154
Speaker 2: or a community, it does come with a lot of

943
00:44:47,154 --> 00:44:49,794
Speaker 2: public opinion. The mom's at the schoolgate or the parents

944
00:44:49,834 --> 00:44:51,954
Speaker 2: at Schoolgate. Let's not be sexist about it. We'll be

945
00:44:51,994 --> 00:44:53,473
Speaker 2: playing the role of the Daily Mail here.

946
00:44:53,634 --> 00:44:57,433
Speaker 3: They'll all be like, poor you, oh dear, did that

947
00:44:57,554 --> 00:44:59,714
Speaker 3: really happen? Or did you hear about that?

948
00:45:00,034 --> 00:45:02,433
Speaker 2: Or they'll be talking about it. She must have known

949
00:45:02,474 --> 00:45:04,674
Speaker 2: something was going on. How could she not? Like a

950
00:45:04,714 --> 00:45:09,234
Speaker 2: million opinions and the score woman is usually portrayed as

951
00:45:09,274 --> 00:45:10,754
Speaker 2: something as a shameful figure.

952
00:45:12,234 --> 00:45:13,953
Speaker 3: Are we seeing the end of that?

953
00:45:14,154 --> 00:45:16,514
Speaker 2: With the Lily Allen's of it, but also of this

954
00:45:16,674 --> 00:45:20,234
Speaker 2: very Australian example where Jules Neil is looking a million

955
00:45:20,354 --> 00:45:23,714
Speaker 2: and twenty bucks at the Australian Open, sip in her champagne,

956
00:45:23,754 --> 00:45:26,594
Speaker 2: going this is me, screw you all.

957
00:45:26,954 --> 00:45:31,514
Speaker 4: It's like the Schoolgate example is oh, she must be

958
00:45:31,594 --> 00:45:35,234
Speaker 4: so embarrassed, like there's a sense that the embarrassment lies

959
00:45:35,234 --> 00:45:37,594
Speaker 4: with you. And what I love about this narrative and

960
00:45:37,594 --> 00:45:39,913
Speaker 4: how she's handled it is that there's no trace of

961
00:45:39,914 --> 00:45:42,594
Speaker 4: her feeling embarrassed. And in fact, when she got a

962
00:45:42,634 --> 00:45:46,194
Speaker 4: whiff of that, she jumped out and went, hang on,

963
00:45:46,234 --> 00:45:48,953
Speaker 4: I'm not going to let you all speculate about what

964
00:45:49,034 --> 00:45:52,394
Speaker 4: I am and am not working through. I've done nothing wrong,

965
00:45:52,834 --> 00:45:57,554
Speaker 4: which by all accounts she hasn't and she didn't go

966
00:45:57,714 --> 00:46:00,754
Speaker 4: into an enormous amount of detail, but she did enough

967
00:46:00,794 --> 00:46:04,114
Speaker 4: to kind of go I'm in Perth looking after my kids.

968
00:46:04,674 --> 00:46:07,513
Speaker 4: And then for her to reclaim that narrative of a bit,

969
00:46:07,674 --> 00:46:10,553
Speaker 4: I think she has been listening to Lily Allen.

970
00:46:12,754 --> 00:46:15,913
Speaker 1: There's a difference with Lily Allen because Lily Allen goes

971
00:46:15,954 --> 00:46:20,114
Speaker 1: into minute details on how she is wronged. What I

972
00:46:20,234 --> 00:46:26,234
Speaker 1: find so graceful about what Jules has done is she

973
00:46:26,394 --> 00:46:29,834
Speaker 1: told us where she was at. She didn't know allegations

974
00:46:29,954 --> 00:46:33,194
Speaker 1: or disclose what anyone else had done or hadn't done.

975
00:46:33,274 --> 00:46:34,873
Speaker 5: She tells us what she's up to.

976
00:46:35,434 --> 00:46:37,794
Speaker 2: And to be clear, she would probably be offered quite

977
00:46:37,834 --> 00:46:39,873
Speaker 2: a lot of money to do that. This kind of

978
00:46:39,954 --> 00:46:42,994
Speaker 2: consumed everybody for a period over that quiet news time,

979
00:46:43,474 --> 00:46:46,434
Speaker 2: and there would be tabloids and there would be tabloid

980
00:46:46,514 --> 00:46:49,034
Speaker 2: news shows. Who would be like Jules Neil Tellell And

981
00:46:49,114 --> 00:46:51,314
Speaker 2: so far she's obviously chosen not to do.

982
00:46:51,194 --> 00:46:54,634
Speaker 4: That, but I can't understand the pool though. There were

983
00:46:54,674 --> 00:46:57,354
Speaker 4: reports as well that she did comment on her former

984
00:46:57,394 --> 00:47:00,394
Speaker 4: friends Instagram basically being like, remove these images.

985
00:47:00,634 --> 00:47:01,594
Speaker 3: You're embarrassing your.

986
00:47:01,714 --> 00:47:02,954
Speaker 4: You're embarrassing yourself.

987
00:47:03,434 --> 00:47:04,754
Speaker 5: So, and I deleted it.

988
00:47:05,074 --> 00:47:09,194
Speaker 4: Yes, then deleted it, which I've found incredibly relatable. And

989
00:47:09,434 --> 00:47:12,513
Speaker 4: I think that when you're in moments like this, you're

990
00:47:12,634 --> 00:47:16,953
Speaker 4: so up and down, like sometimes you're full of adrenaline

991
00:47:16,994 --> 00:47:19,234
Speaker 4: and you're angry and you want to respond and you

992
00:47:19,314 --> 00:47:21,953
Speaker 4: want to put it all out there. But I think

993
00:47:21,994 --> 00:47:25,314
Speaker 4: so far she's shown kind of a lot of restraint,

994
00:47:25,634 --> 00:47:29,194
Speaker 4: and I love the idea that she gets to own this.

995
00:47:29,354 --> 00:47:33,074
Speaker 4: She has a talent agency thing. She's just like, you

996
00:47:33,114 --> 00:47:35,194
Speaker 4: don't get to shame me. I'm going to go to

997
00:47:35,234 --> 00:47:37,433
Speaker 4: the Australian Open with a drink in my hand and

998
00:47:37,474 --> 00:47:40,634
Speaker 4: pose on this media wall and I've got nothing to

999
00:47:40,674 --> 00:47:41,314
Speaker 4: be embarrassed by.

1000
00:47:41,354 --> 00:47:43,754
Speaker 1: And I think that's what the vibe shift is. I

1001
00:47:43,754 --> 00:47:46,274
Speaker 1: think you've really nailed it there by saying that it's

1002
00:47:46,314 --> 00:47:51,274
Speaker 1: about taking away the shame and embarrassment factor, because the

1003
00:47:51,314 --> 00:47:53,954
Speaker 1: woman in this case has not done anything.

1004
00:47:53,874 --> 00:47:56,634
Speaker 4: Whereas it sounds like it's sitting on his shoulder. It's

1005
00:47:56,634 --> 00:48:00,674
Speaker 4: like even that press conference, like he ought to be

1006
00:48:01,394 --> 00:48:03,114
Speaker 4: mortified by what he's done.

1007
00:48:03,194 --> 00:48:05,634
Speaker 2: I mean, there's another question there about whether you have

1008
00:48:05,714 --> 00:48:09,874
Speaker 2: to quit your job. She's done something you know terrible.

1009
00:48:09,954 --> 00:48:13,234
Speaker 2: Is maybe an overstatement, but it's not criminal, but something

1010
00:48:13,834 --> 00:48:17,714
Speaker 2: you know bad, Yeah, in your private life. That's like

1011
00:48:17,794 --> 00:48:20,514
Speaker 2: almost another conversation. I mean, who knows where he'll end up,

1012
00:48:20,514 --> 00:48:22,114
Speaker 2: whether he'll end up going back to playing Perth and

1013
00:48:22,114 --> 00:48:25,953
Speaker 2: all those things. But I wonder also if maybe the

1014
00:48:26,074 --> 00:48:29,953
Speaker 2: narrative of a woman's life being entirely ruined by a

1015
00:48:30,034 --> 00:48:34,354
Speaker 2: man's actions or choices maybe one of the reasons why

1016
00:48:34,434 --> 00:48:36,834
Speaker 2: the vibe shift is there, because does that have to

1017
00:48:36,914 --> 00:48:37,434
Speaker 2: be true?

1018
00:48:37,874 --> 00:48:41,074
Speaker 1: And increasingly it's not, as women are able to build

1019
00:48:41,114 --> 00:48:43,474
Speaker 1: their own lives separate from their partner. There was a

1020
00:48:43,514 --> 00:48:47,314
Speaker 1: substack recently by Lisa Dawson, who's a writer in her fifties,

1021
00:48:47,354 --> 00:48:51,114
Speaker 1: talking about how the script on divorce has been flipped.

1022
00:48:51,154 --> 00:48:53,234
Speaker 5: It's no longer an inevitable tragedy.

1023
00:48:53,794 --> 00:48:55,754
Speaker 1: It was called if you leave me now, I'm going

1024
00:48:55,754 --> 00:48:59,274
Speaker 1: to be absolutely fine, and she talks about her husband

1025
00:48:59,354 --> 00:49:01,794
Speaker 1: basically seemingly out of the blue, telling her I'm not.

1026
00:49:01,714 --> 00:49:02,634
Speaker 5: Happy in the marriage.

1027
00:49:02,714 --> 00:49:05,194
Speaker 1: They're both in their mid fifties, him pretty much up

1028
00:49:05,234 --> 00:49:08,514
Speaker 1: and leaving after that, and she tracks how she felt

1029
00:49:08,634 --> 00:49:11,154
Speaker 1: on the first few days after he left, and it's

1030
00:49:11,234 --> 00:49:15,434
Speaker 1: really surprising to her because on day one, yes, she's unhappy,

1031
00:49:15,554 --> 00:49:18,473
Speaker 1: she's sobbing. Her twenty three year old daughter is comforting her.

1032
00:49:19,074 --> 00:49:22,674
Speaker 1: On day two she's actually back to doing Instagram ads

1033
00:49:22,754 --> 00:49:26,034
Speaker 1: that's part of her career. And then by day three

1034
00:49:26,114 --> 00:49:30,154
Speaker 1: she describes actually feeling liberated, and she's also just very surprised.

1035
00:49:30,194 --> 00:49:32,634
Speaker 1: This is not what she thought was going to happen,

1036
00:49:33,274 --> 00:49:35,473
Speaker 1: and she tries to figure out why she's having this

1037
00:49:35,554 --> 00:49:39,514
Speaker 1: really unexpected response, and she has this interesting theory. She

1038
00:49:39,634 --> 00:49:43,473
Speaker 1: says that women in midlife experiencing divorce have actually been

1039
00:49:43,514 --> 00:49:47,074
Speaker 1: on this upward trajectory to that point. They've been climbing

1040
00:49:47,114 --> 00:49:49,913
Speaker 1: career ladders, they have been raising children. They have, by

1041
00:49:49,954 --> 00:49:54,154
Speaker 1: her telling, often taken on more of that work than

1042
00:49:54,474 --> 00:49:57,194
Speaker 1: the male partners in their lives. So they've been improving

1043
00:49:57,194 --> 00:50:01,154
Speaker 1: themselves basically getting tough, as stronger, more organized, whereas she

1044
00:50:01,274 --> 00:50:05,993
Speaker 1: says that for men in midlife, they're typically plateauing. They're

1045
00:50:06,034 --> 00:50:08,834
Speaker 1: not doing that self improvement journey in the same way

1046
00:50:08,834 --> 00:50:10,954
Speaker 1: as women are. What do you think about that theory?

1047
00:50:11,274 --> 00:50:14,194
Speaker 2: I see that theory play out a lot around me.

1048
00:50:14,794 --> 00:50:18,234
Speaker 2: It's interesting because it's very different life stage to the

1049
00:50:18,354 --> 00:50:20,714
Speaker 2: Juels Neil story, but in a way it echoes itself,

1050
00:50:20,754 --> 00:50:23,994
Speaker 2: because in both those cases it's kind of like I

1051
00:50:24,194 --> 00:50:28,274
Speaker 2: can get on with things and my life can be fine,

1052
00:50:28,354 --> 00:50:30,834
Speaker 2: whereas before there may have been more of a well,

1053
00:50:30,834 --> 00:50:31,554
Speaker 2: it depends.

1054
00:50:31,274 --> 00:50:33,794
Speaker 4: A bit what he decides to do, isn't it Also

1055
00:50:33,874 --> 00:50:36,674
Speaker 4: isn't the common denominator in all of these stories, Lily Allen,

1056
00:50:36,994 --> 00:50:40,314
Speaker 4: this one, and Jules Neil, they're all supporting themselves financially.

1057
00:50:40,594 --> 00:50:45,194
Speaker 4: I think that it's like that's the part where you

1058
00:50:45,234 --> 00:50:49,474
Speaker 4: can remove the feeling of feeling completely disposed by someone,

1059
00:50:49,554 --> 00:50:52,593
Speaker 4: or feeling pathetic or feeling which none of those are true.

1060
00:50:52,634 --> 00:50:56,234
Speaker 4: And there are so many women who do sacrifice career

1061
00:50:56,314 --> 00:50:59,674
Speaker 4: to look after children and then if they are dumped tomorrow,

1062
00:50:59,834 --> 00:51:01,274
Speaker 4: that's a very very different.

1063
00:51:01,234 --> 00:51:03,634
Speaker 2: There's different also different life stage. Yeah, right, So if

1064
00:51:03,714 --> 00:51:05,993
Speaker 2: Jules Neil's got tiny little kids, and I mean again,

1065
00:51:06,034 --> 00:51:09,274
Speaker 2: they're not normal people and when it comes with normal incomes,

1066
00:51:09,274 --> 00:51:11,553
Speaker 2: but if you're in the middle of that time little kids,

1067
00:51:11,674 --> 00:51:14,634
Speaker 2: is very different to the place where the substack writer is,

1068
00:51:14,674 --> 00:51:18,114
Speaker 2: where she's got grown up children and she has been

1069
00:51:18,114 --> 00:51:21,634
Speaker 2: rebuilding her career. But I think that's very absolutely true,

1070
00:51:21,754 --> 00:51:24,754
Speaker 2: is that the financial cost of divorce is enormous in

1071
00:51:24,834 --> 00:51:27,914
Speaker 2: terms of lifestyle change in terms of all the decisions

1072
00:51:27,914 --> 00:51:29,674
Speaker 2: that have to be made, in terms of what it

1073
00:51:29,714 --> 00:51:33,074
Speaker 2: means for your future. That's why an enormous amount of

1074
00:51:33,074 --> 00:51:36,234
Speaker 2: people don't do it, who may want to, is because

1075
00:51:36,274 --> 00:51:39,913
Speaker 2: they're like, everything will shift, And that is absolutely true,

1076
00:51:39,914 --> 00:51:41,873
Speaker 2: and it's not to minimize it in any way, but

1077
00:51:42,034 --> 00:51:46,154
Speaker 2: when more and more and more women are financially independent.

1078
00:51:46,074 --> 00:51:47,794
Speaker 3: It does shift that switch a bit.

1079
00:51:47,914 --> 00:51:50,874
Speaker 2: It does move that needle and go, well, I could

1080
00:51:51,234 --> 00:51:54,194
Speaker 2: I could support myself, I could move on, I could

1081
00:51:54,274 --> 00:51:57,234
Speaker 2: do this, I could do that, and emotionally what I

1082
00:51:57,394 --> 00:51:59,914
Speaker 2: liked in that sub stack. Anyone in long term relationship

1083
00:51:59,914 --> 00:52:03,794
Speaker 2: knows how complicated they are, and it's very rarely you know,

1084
00:52:03,874 --> 00:52:07,354
Speaker 2: he's bad, she's good, or she's bad like whatever, either

1085
00:52:07,354 --> 00:52:10,594
Speaker 2: of these women are prepared to wear. The woman in

1086
00:52:10,594 --> 00:52:13,874
Speaker 2: the subtext says, no, my marriage was good, we were happy,

1087
00:52:13,914 --> 00:52:15,754
Speaker 2: we did talk about things, we did do this, we

1088
00:52:15,834 --> 00:52:19,674
Speaker 2: did do that. He has chosen that he wants something else. Yes,

1089
00:52:19,874 --> 00:52:22,714
Speaker 2: it doesn't necessarily mean that I did anything wrong.

1090
00:52:22,834 --> 00:52:24,634
Speaker 4: I'm not going to wear that rejection for the rest

1091
00:52:24,714 --> 00:52:25,914
Speaker 4: of my life.

1092
00:52:25,674 --> 00:52:29,194
Speaker 1: Or readjust what I was perceiving reality to be. That's

1093
00:52:29,194 --> 00:52:31,393
Speaker 1: a really key point she made. She's like, well, I

1094
00:52:31,554 --> 00:52:33,634
Speaker 1: was happy, and I'm pretty sure he was happy too,

1095
00:52:33,634 --> 00:52:35,274
Speaker 1: and I'm not going to erase all of that just

1096
00:52:35,314 --> 00:52:36,913
Speaker 1: because he made a choice.

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00:52:37,714 --> 00:52:39,994
Speaker 2: That is all we have time for on this Wednesday.

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00:52:40,074 --> 00:52:42,074
Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us as always, and thank

1099
00:52:42,154 --> 00:52:43,913
Speaker 2: you to our amazing team for helping us put the

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00:52:43,914 --> 00:52:44,514
Speaker 2: show together.

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00:52:44,714 --> 00:52:52,954
Speaker 4: Bye. Mom and Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of the

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00:52:53,034 --> 00:52:55,234
Speaker 4: land on which we have recorded this podcast.