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Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

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Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on. For those of

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Speaker 1: us who live down here in Australia, we don't have

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Speaker 1: to consider a life with the threat of capital punishment

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Speaker 1: hanging over our heads for crimes that we may potentially

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Speaker 1: commit or are wrongfully accused of. If we do commit

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Speaker 1: a crime, we'll spend time behind bars, sometimes for the

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Speaker 1: rest of our lives, but we will never be in

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Speaker 1: a prison cell awaiting our end at a predetermined date

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Speaker 1: and time. In fact, the last person to be put

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Speaker 1: to death here was a man called Ronald Ryan, and

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Speaker 1: it was much closer in the past than you might think.

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Speaker 1: He was found guilty of shooting and killing a warden

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Speaker 1: on attempting to escape Pentridge Prison in nineteen sixty five.

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Speaker 1: He was hanged at that very same jail in Victoria

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Speaker 1: on February third, nineteen sixty seven. But that wasn't when

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Speaker 1: capital punishment was outlawed here in Australia. That didn't happen

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Speaker 1: until nineteen eighty five. But we know for some of

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Speaker 1: you listening to this right now, you might not be

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Speaker 1: so lucky. Amnesty International recorded Oney one hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: three executions across sixteen countries in twenty twenty three. The

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Speaker 1: majority of those were in China, followed by Iran, Saudi Arabia,

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Speaker 1: and the US.

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Speaker 2: And the US executed.

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Speaker 1: Sixteen people in twenty twenty four, all of the men

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Speaker 1: and almost all in the Southern States, but the exact

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Speaker 1: numbers of those put to death by their country's justice

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Speaker 1: system aren't even fully known, and that's mostly due to

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Speaker 1: the secrecy surrounding just how many people China puts to

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Speaker 1: death every year. Australia also almost exclusively hanged its criminals.

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Speaker 1: We didn't behead them, as was tradition in French history.

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Speaker 1: They're Guiartine, famously removing the heads of people like King

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Speaker 1: Louis the sixteenth and Marie Antoinette. Or in Iceland, where

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Speaker 1: today's story is centered, where in a rare case, a

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Speaker 1: special acts was brought in from the ruling kingdom of

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Speaker 1: Denmark to end the lives of those who done wrong.

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Speaker 1: Mostly they sent them back to Denmark to die, but

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Speaker 1: they stopped the practice of killing criminals more than one

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Speaker 1: hundred and thirty years before Australia did. Back in the

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Speaker 1: early eighteen hundreds, capital punishment was still very much an

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Speaker 1: option for those Icelandic folk who broke the law in

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Speaker 1: the small island country, and for a young woman trying

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Speaker 1: to make her way in the world. At that time,

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Speaker 1: it was a brutal and harsh environment to exist in.

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Speaker 1: It was into that world that Agnes Magnustote arrived. Her

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Speaker 1: young life was scarred by the loss of every person

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Speaker 1: she loved. She worked tirelessly just to survive. So when

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Speaker 1: a wealthy man came into her life with promises that

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Speaker 1: he wouldn't keep, she made a decision that will ultimately

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Speaker 1: see her death be set at a predetermined date and

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Speaker 1: time and become the very last person to die at

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Speaker 1: the hand of an executioner in her country. I'm Claire

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Speaker 1: Murphy and this is True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring

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Speaker 1: the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people

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Speaker 1: who know the most about them. More than half of

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Speaker 1: the world's population currently lives in a country that has

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Speaker 1: corporal punishment. The US, China, many Middle Eastern and African

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Speaker 1: countries still choosing to punish crimes with death, from lethal

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Speaker 1: injections to electric chairs and firing squads. It's a practice

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Speaker 1: that sees thousands of human lives ended in what those

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Speaker 1: in their justice system believe is a punishment befitting the crime.

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Speaker 1: Agnes Magnoestotia is now legend in Iceland as the last person,

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Speaker 1: the last woman to be put to death after she

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Speaker 1: was found guilty of killing a man who was much

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Speaker 1: more powerful and influential than she could ever be. But

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Speaker 1: Agnes's story didn't end with the fall of the acts.

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Speaker 1: Did she return from the other side to ensure her

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Speaker 1: final wishes were carried out. Who was responsible for a

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Speaker 1: part of her going missing for more than one hundred years,

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Speaker 1: and how did they find her again. Agnes's legacy has

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Speaker 1: been helped in part by Australian author Hannah Kent, who

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Speaker 1: took her journey and turned it into a book called

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Speaker 1: Burial Rights, imagining what the final days of Agnes's existence

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Speaker 1: would have looked like and the conversation she may have

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Speaker 1: had with those around her as she awaited her fate.

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Speaker 1: Enjoy this chat with Hannah, whose obsession with this Icelandic

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Speaker 1: woman might just prove that the murderess's power continues to

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Speaker 1: influence us. Nearly two hundred years after her physical body

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Speaker 1: was committed back to the earth, Hannah thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for joining us. Before we get into Agnes's incredible story,

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Speaker 1: I'd like to get a bit of background on your

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Speaker 1: story first. Can you take me to when you were seventeen.

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Speaker 1: You're trying to figure out what you want to do

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Speaker 1: with your life, and then you somehow end up in Iceland.

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Speaker 2: How did that happen?

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Speaker 3: I know it was as much probably as a surprise

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Speaker 3: to me as to anyone else. I had never planned

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Speaker 3: on going to Iceland. All I knew was that I

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Speaker 3: wanted some kind of adventure before I decided what to

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Speaker 3: do with my life. At seventeen, like I think many

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Speaker 3: people are at that age, I was overwhelmed by the

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Speaker 3: sense that I needed to decide on a certain career path,

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Speaker 3: that I needed to choose a vocation, and not really

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Speaker 3: knowing what that should be, I grabbed the opportunity to

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Speaker 3: spend twelve months overseas when the local Rotary club was

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Speaker 3: accepting applications. And with rotary you don't actually get to

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Speaker 3: choose where you're sent. Instead, the country is selected for you,

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Speaker 3: and I ended up being the only person being sent

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Speaker 3: to Iceland, whereas everyone else, you know, went off to

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Speaker 3: the US and France. But yeah, and so that then

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Speaker 3: began twelve months living in a very small fishing village

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Speaker 3: in the north of Iceland as Shy of the Arctic Circle,

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Speaker 3: called soThe Crocker.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember the first time you heard Agnes's name.

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Speaker 3: I do. I don't think I'll ever forget it. I

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Speaker 3: was with my first host family, and it was a

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Speaker 3: strange home to be in. They were not particularly warm.

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Speaker 3: Certainly they didn't really speak to me. My host brother

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Speaker 3: never spoke to me at all, and so that probably

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Speaker 3: also heightened my feelings of homesickness and alienation in this

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Speaker 3: small community. But I remember they did take me with

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Speaker 3: them on a trip down south, and we were traveling

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Speaker 3: through the north country of Iceland, and we rounded the

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Speaker 3: corner of the mountain and suddenly were in this area

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Speaker 3: a valley mouth, which was everywhere you could see there

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Speaker 3: were hundreds, even thousands of these small hillocks. It looked

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Speaker 3: completely bizarre, something like out of a dream. And I

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Speaker 3: remember sort of broaching the silence and the car to say,

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Speaker 3: you know, are these are these Viking burial mounds? Because

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Speaker 3: I knew Iistin had some history with Vikings, and I

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Speaker 3: just could not, for the life of me think what

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Speaker 3: else they could be, and I was told that no, no,

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Speaker 3: they were caused by an avalanche. But then three as

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Speaker 3: we were driving through three hills were pointed out to

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Speaker 3: me and I was told that they were called Thristepa

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Speaker 3: and that it was there that the last execution occurred

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Speaker 3: in Iceland. And I was immediately interested, as I think

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Speaker 3: anyone would be, on hearing this snippet, and asked, you know,

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Speaker 3: who was it and what had happened? And I wasn't

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Speaker 3: told too much then, but I was told that the

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Speaker 3: last person to be beheaded by broad acts, as is

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Speaker 3: what happened on those three heels was a woman called

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Speaker 3: Agnes Magnus doot Did, And that, I think is what

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Speaker 3: I found immediately interesting, that this was a woman, and

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Speaker 3: not a particularly old woman. She was in her thirties.

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Speaker 3: And when I asked them why, I was told something

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Speaker 3: which I found immediately dissatisfying. I was told that, oh, well,

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Speaker 3: you know, we don't really know why she did it.

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Speaker 3: She you know, we know that she stabbed the man

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Speaker 3: that she worked for, this farmer, to death in bed

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Speaker 3: as he lay asleep, and then she tried to burn

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Speaker 3: down the house, this turf farm as Iceland has lived

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Speaker 3: in back then, and we think that she did it

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Speaker 3: because you know, she wasn't a good person. There was

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Speaker 3: some sort of mutterings about maybe she had been in

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Speaker 3: love with the farmer and he hadn't reciprocated her feelings.

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Speaker 3: But mostly I was told, well, you know, was she

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Speaker 3: just you know, she was just bad. She was just

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Speaker 3: a bad person. And that was kind of left it there.

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Speaker 3: And I remember thinking of her as we continue driving

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Speaker 3: for the rest of the three hours or whatever however

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Speaker 3: long it took, and then that night too, trying to

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Speaker 3: go to sleep and listening to this winter wind just

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Speaker 3: howling outside the house and thinking of her and wondering,

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Speaker 3: wondering about her, wondering who she had been really, because

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Speaker 3: I think even then I had this very strong sense

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Speaker 3: that no one is unequivocally evil, no one is all bad.

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Speaker 3: I just desperately wanted to know more about her story

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Speaker 3: and why she had ended up on those three hills

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Speaker 3: in January in eighteen thirty, which is when she died.

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Speaker 1: You return home to Australia, and I'm going to get

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Speaker 1: into the supernaturalness of Agnes's story a little bit later on,

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Speaker 1: but you returned to Australia in her presence in your

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Speaker 1: mind never truly goes away. She's still with you. Why

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Speaker 1: do you think her story stuck with you?

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Speaker 3: Like?

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Speaker 1: What is it about her? And do you feel like this?

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Speaker 1: And I'm not a woo woo person, not a big

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Speaker 1: believer in ghosts, but do you feel it all like

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Speaker 1: Agnes guided you at all to write the book Burial

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Speaker 1: Rights about her final days?

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Speaker 2: Like how do you see that process?

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Speaker 1: Because we all learn bits of history as we travel

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Speaker 1: around the world, and not many of us end up

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Speaker 1: writing books about one woman they happen to hear about

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Speaker 1: on a car ride one day.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's true, and it's a question I've asked myself many,

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Speaker 3: many times, and I still don't think I have a

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Speaker 3: firm answer for it. I know that there are people

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Speaker 3: who have come to me, readers particularly, who say, you know,

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Speaker 3: I think that she was there, and I think that she,

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Speaker 3: you know, she guided you towards writing this book, And

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Speaker 3: I think that's that's a lovely interpretation, and I'm open

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Speaker 3: to that. I think I have to be open to

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Speaker 3: the mystery of it all, honestly, and honestly, I quite

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Speaker 3: like that. It is a mystery that I ended up

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Speaker 3: becoming so obsessed with this case. I still can't quite

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Speaker 3: explain it, and I don't have a dif a answer,

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Speaker 3: And I don't mind that. I don't mind that that's

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Speaker 3: something of this is still inexplicable.

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Speaker 1: All right, Well, let's learn a little bit about Agnes then,

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Speaker 1: from the research that you did, because, as you said,

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Speaker 1: the idea of Agnes to the people around her in

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Speaker 1: the community after this crime was committed, that she was

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Speaker 1: just this awful, evil human being.

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Speaker 2: But what did you.

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Speaker 1: Find out about who she was as a person like

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Speaker 1: her character in your research?

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Speaker 3: Well, the first thing I found out was that no

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Speaker 3: one really knew very much at all. I remember throughout

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Speaker 3: the rest of my exchange, even as it became a

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Speaker 3: lot better, and certainly as I learned the language, asking

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Speaker 3: people about her and being frustrated at how little was

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Speaker 3: known about her early life, particularly, which is what I

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Speaker 3: was interested in. I think even then I was trying

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Speaker 3: to get a sense of context for what happened. I

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Speaker 3: wasn't necessarily looking to find innocence in any explanations of

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Speaker 3: her character, but I just wanted to understand her. And

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Speaker 3: I realized that while people were very familiar with the case,

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Speaker 3: but then not everyone knows the exact details of what happened.

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Speaker 3: I was frustrated by that, which probably heightened my curiosity.

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Speaker 3: And then when I did go back to Australia, I

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Speaker 3: still hadn't decided that I was going to write a book,

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Speaker 3: but I still had this burning desire to find out

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Speaker 3: more about her, and so I ended up finding the

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Speaker 3: resources which were available to me as a unique student

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Speaker 3: in Adelaide, which was using the resources in the library

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Speaker 3: trying to find online articles, and I soon realized that

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Speaker 3: I was not able to access any primary resources, but

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Speaker 3: I was able to find several I guess you would

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Speaker 3: describe them as local histories or several accounts of the

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Speaker 3: murders and the execution, and in them, again my frustration

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Speaker 3: just multiplied. There were so many accounts which suggested I

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Speaker 3: remember one of them suggested that yes, Agnes Magnustotti had

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Speaker 3: fallen in love with a farmer, not Tom Kettelsen, who

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Speaker 3: was an extraordinary man in his own right. You know,

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Speaker 3: he was known. He seemed to be very complex, very contradictory.

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Speaker 3: He was a very gifted healer, but he was also

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Speaker 3: were a womanizer. He always seemed to have a lot

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Speaker 3: of money and people there were rumors at the time

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Speaker 3: that he had stolen it, which it was. You know,

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Speaker 3: he had been accused of thievery before, and other people

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Speaker 3: thought he was just a sorcerer, and he did really

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Speaker 3: nothing to deny these claims. So people thought, well, you know,

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Speaker 3: he was an enigmatic and charismatic man, and Agnes fell

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Speaker 3: in love with him. She was a servant woman. She

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Speaker 3: went to go work for him, and then sometime during

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Speaker 3: that year that she worked with him, he spurned her,

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Speaker 3: and one source literally described her as then going insane,

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Speaker 3: that you know that, you know, being spurned made her

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Speaker 3: go mad, and then she killed him. There were two

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Speaker 3: other people involved in the murders. One was another maid

243
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Speaker 3: at the house, a woman called Sigare fut And who

244
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Speaker 3: was very young at the time. Was she was not

245
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Speaker 3: yet an adult. I believe she was sixteen years old.

246
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Speaker 3: And there was another young man from the area called

247
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Speaker 3: Fridrik Sigerson who ended up being beheaded before Agnes, and

248
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Speaker 3: he was only seventeen. He was a farmer's son, quite poor,

249
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Speaker 3: and people thought, you know, very envious of Utan's supposed wealth.

250
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Speaker 3: In every account that I came across, or every sort

251
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Speaker 3: of document I was able to have delivered to me

252
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Speaker 3: the same idea of Agnes being the one who really

253
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Speaker 3: created a gang out of the three, and who incited

254
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Speaker 3: Fludrich to be, you know, to be violent towards Natan.

255
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Speaker 3: It was her. She was the manipulator. She was the

256
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Speaker 3: one behind the scenes, sort of rubbing her hands together.

257
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Speaker 3: I was again, I just wanted something which suggested otherwise.

258
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Speaker 3: I wanted to find out about her early life. I

259
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Speaker 3: wanted to know why Agnes was then working at a

260
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Speaker 3: lucastar there Natan's farm, which is very far away from

261
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Speaker 3: many other settlements. It's very remote, very isolated. And yes,

262
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Speaker 3: and I couldn't. I couldn't really find much at all.

263
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Speaker 3: So I knew then that for me and ordered by

264
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Speaker 3: that stage to find out about any wider context as

265
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Speaker 3: to why she went there, whether she was in love

266
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Speaker 3: with this man, how the murder might have happened, might

267
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Speaker 3: have unfolded, I would need to return to Iceland.

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Speaker 2: So what do you find on your return?

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Speaker 1: I understand that we know that Agnes's early life wasn't pleasant,

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Speaker 1: that she was growing up in a time in Iceland

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Speaker 1: that was only just a decade past a major volcanic eruption,

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Speaker 1: and they were living in this time called the mist time,

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Speaker 1: which meant that their primary source of income, which was agriculture.

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Speaker 1: Farming was being very heavily tested, and so poverty was

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Speaker 1: widespread and it was difficult. It was a difficult life.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you've already discussed what the weather conditions are

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Speaker 1: like in Iceland. It's not an easy place to live

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Speaker 1: at the best of times. So what world was Agnes

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Speaker 1: growing up in and what was her family life like

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Speaker 1: with her parents.

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Speaker 3: I was able to discover some of this before I

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Speaker 3: went back to Iceland, and again that had fueled my

283
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Speaker 3: curiosity about her life because I had learned that it

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Speaker 3: was exactly as you say that Iceland really we're experiencing

285
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Speaker 3: incredible poverty. At this time, Iceland was still a Danish colony.

286
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Speaker 3: Danish merchants set all the prices. They very much kept

287
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Speaker 3: the Icelandic people. You know, in subjugation, everyone lived in

288
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Speaker 3: turf houses, you know, houses literally made out of earth

289
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Speaker 3: and grass that became very damp in the winter, that

290
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Speaker 3: were often very smoky. There were lots of illnesses, and

291
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Speaker 3: even when you had people who held land such as

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Speaker 3: nat On, a better class of farmers. I guess you

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Speaker 3: might say most people were in a serving sort of

294
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Speaker 3: a laboring class, and for men this meant that they

295
00:15:34,032 --> 00:15:36,552
Speaker 3: were paid a pittance, so for some women they might

296
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Speaker 3: not be paid anything at all. And what would happen

297
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Speaker 3: is that you would go into work as a venomrther

298
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Speaker 3: or a vender corner, you know, a maid or a servant,

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Speaker 3: and you would work from a very early age, you know,

300
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Speaker 3: possibly six, sometimes seven. You were sent out ideally to

301
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Speaker 3: people who you knew, often to people who you didn't,

302
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Speaker 3: and then you had to stay at the farm. You

303
00:15:58,792 --> 00:16:01,592
Speaker 3: were not permitted to leave the farm until this time

304
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Speaker 3: called the flitting days, which is when you could change

305
00:16:04,152 --> 00:16:07,432
Speaker 3: your place of employment. But there was also wider infrastructure

306
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Speaker 3: in Iceland at this time. I mean, there was one

307
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Speaker 3: school in the south Bessasta there which is now the

308
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Speaker 3: President's Residents. But there were no you know, it's not

309
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Speaker 3: like there were really there were no hospitals, there were

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Speaker 3: no schools up north, there were no sort of social

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00:16:22,672 --> 00:16:26,272
Speaker 3: services whatsoever. And most of that came down to the

312
00:16:26,312 --> 00:16:29,712
Speaker 3: priests involvement in their parishes' lives and their community's lives.

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Speaker 3: So for example, there was quite a lot of problems

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Speaker 3: regarding children who were illegitimate or children who were born

315
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Speaker 3: to people who were servants themselves, and in this case

316
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Speaker 3: they would often try to split up the families. So

317
00:16:43,832 --> 00:16:46,512
Speaker 3: you had many, many children who were born illegitimate or

318
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Speaker 3: born to people who couldn't properly support them. You were

319
00:16:48,872 --> 00:16:50,792
Speaker 3: unable to get married if you didn't own land, so

320
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Speaker 3: a lot of these children were illegitimate, and you would

321
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Speaker 3: be farmed out to other families where you would essentially

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Speaker 3: start your life of labor. And particularly if you were

323
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Speaker 3: a woman, there were very little means available to you

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Speaker 3: outside of you know, marriage or you know, slightly elevated

325
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Speaker 3: working position where you could better your conditions. You're essentially,

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Speaker 3: in many ways kind of in working for life in

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Speaker 3: very very difficult, very hostile environment. So absolutely not a

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Speaker 3: place where it was possible to easily get by without

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Speaker 3: a wide range of supportive kinship networks. That was something

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Speaker 3: that I was very aware of.

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Speaker 1: So for Agnes, she's born into that exact situation. So

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Speaker 1: her parents are both working and are unable to get married.

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Speaker 1: Their father abandons the family quite early. Well that's the story.

334
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Speaker 1: He may have been sent to work somewhere else. We

335
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Speaker 1: don't fully know his motives for leaving his partner and children,

336
00:17:47,111 --> 00:17:51,111
Speaker 1: and so the children, Agnes and her brother are farmed

337
00:17:51,151 --> 00:17:54,232
Speaker 1: out to other families and they start their working life

338
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Speaker 1: very very young. So wouldn't have been unusual for Agnes,

339
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Speaker 1: because I guess from a Western perspective, when we look

340
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Speaker 1: at history, we expect young women to be married off

341
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Speaker 1: very young. But it wouldn't have been on usual for

342
00:18:06,752 --> 00:18:09,071
Speaker 1: Agnes because she would have been a laborer and unable

343
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Speaker 1: to marry anyway. But when she meets Natan, he's a

344
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Speaker 1: landowner and so he potentially would have seemed quite a

345
00:18:18,232 --> 00:18:22,311
Speaker 1: lovely prospect for her, and from all reports he was

346
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Speaker 1: quite smitten with her when they did meet. And we're

347
00:18:26,391 --> 00:18:29,032
Speaker 1: piecing things together from the very little information that we

348
00:18:29,071 --> 00:18:32,432
Speaker 1: have about this, So it could have been very possible

349
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Speaker 1: that she saw him as a way out of her situation,

350
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Speaker 1: a way out of poverty at that time. I think

351
00:18:38,151 --> 00:18:41,351
Speaker 1: that's a valid interpretation, and that's certainly supported by the

352
00:18:41,351 --> 00:18:45,031
Speaker 1: many anecdotes which suggest that they had an affair. Naton

353
00:18:45,151 --> 00:18:47,272
Speaker 1: at the time was also having an affair with a

354
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Speaker 1: married woman who was married to another landowner. She was

355
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Speaker 1: sort of in a class above Agnes She's quite well

356
00:18:53,752 --> 00:18:57,831
Speaker 1: known as poet Rosa's she wrote incredible poetry, and Natonto

357
00:18:58,032 --> 00:18:59,952
Speaker 1: was known as a poet. And then when I went

358
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Speaker 1: to Iceland, I discovered Agnes also was someone who was

359
00:19:03,151 --> 00:19:05,792
Speaker 1: described as a very good poet and someone who sort

360
00:19:05,792 --> 00:19:09,752
Speaker 1: of had held all these literary ambitions, who was highly literate,

361
00:19:09,871 --> 00:19:12,871
Speaker 1: who was seemed very intelligent, even by the people who

362
00:19:12,871 --> 00:19:17,272
Speaker 1: were you writing anecdotes or recounting the events, and you know,

363
00:19:17,351 --> 00:19:19,311
Speaker 1: calling her a devil in the same word, they were

364
00:19:19,311 --> 00:19:21,912
Speaker 1: at least acknowledging that she was incredibly smart. And I've

365
00:19:21,952 --> 00:19:24,792
Speaker 1: often thought about this because I do think Agnes is

366
00:19:24,871 --> 00:19:26,152
Speaker 1: someone who was illegitimate.

367
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Speaker 3: You know. The first account I found of her was

368
00:19:28,351 --> 00:19:30,591
Speaker 3: in a census when she was six years old. She

369
00:19:30,671 --> 00:19:33,552
Speaker 3: already had a half brother, her mother was in service.

370
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Speaker 3: She had been named after a man who turned out

371
00:19:36,631 --> 00:19:38,471
Speaker 3: not to be her father at all. In fact, her

372
00:19:38,512 --> 00:19:41,831
Speaker 3: father was another married farmer. That she was someone who

373
00:19:41,831 --> 00:19:45,512
Speaker 3: from an early age was probably incredibly aware of how

374
00:19:45,631 --> 00:19:48,992
Speaker 3: unfair her lot was. I think it would be hard

375
00:19:49,032 --> 00:19:53,351
Speaker 3: not to imagine her thinking of the injustice of her situation.

376
00:19:53,911 --> 00:19:57,792
Speaker 3: And certainly Natan, with his intelligence, his love of literature

377
00:19:57,831 --> 00:20:01,031
Speaker 3: and poetry, his education would have been an interesting man

378
00:20:01,151 --> 00:20:04,151
Speaker 3: for her, you know, to strike up a friendship or

379
00:20:04,151 --> 00:20:06,792
Speaker 3: to strike up any kind of relationship with part of

380
00:20:06,831 --> 00:20:09,911
Speaker 3: me is still uncertain as to whether or not she

381
00:20:10,552 --> 00:20:12,752
Speaker 3: was in love with him, and whether he spurned her

382
00:20:13,351 --> 00:20:15,752
Speaker 3: to a certain extent. These are the stories that have

383
00:20:15,871 --> 00:20:18,152
Speaker 3: been passed down by people with very you know, all

384
00:20:18,192 --> 00:20:20,552
Speaker 3: sorts of skin in the game. It's very hard to

385
00:20:20,631 --> 00:20:25,512
Speaker 3: know exactly what their early connection looked like. But one

386
00:20:25,552 --> 00:20:29,032
Speaker 3: thing is known that after living with Natan for a

387
00:20:29,032 --> 00:20:32,071
Speaker 3: certain amount of time that things soured between them. That

388
00:20:32,192 --> 00:20:34,911
Speaker 3: is known, and it's also known and has been shown

389
00:20:34,911 --> 00:20:37,791
Speaker 3: and has been proven throughout the court documents that Agnes

390
00:20:37,831 --> 00:20:40,631
Speaker 3: started to run away from a luga star there and

391
00:20:40,671 --> 00:20:42,951
Speaker 3: this is extraordinary. It sounds, you know, like she just

392
00:20:43,071 --> 00:20:45,032
Speaker 3: had enough that she went out. But this was something

393
00:20:45,071 --> 00:20:47,792
Speaker 3: which was illegal for her to do. So it was

394
00:20:47,911 --> 00:20:50,311
Speaker 3: it was not permitted for servants to leave without the

395
00:20:50,311 --> 00:20:54,152
Speaker 3: permission of the farmer. So I start to think then that,

396
00:20:54,351 --> 00:20:56,792
Speaker 3: you know, what was it like for her being stuck

397
00:20:56,831 --> 00:20:59,351
Speaker 3: in a tiny turf house in a winter with a

398
00:20:59,351 --> 00:21:02,392
Speaker 3: man with whom perhaps she had a very who knows

399
00:21:02,391 --> 00:21:04,632
Speaker 3: what kind of relationship, who knows what kind of connection

400
00:21:04,712 --> 00:21:06,671
Speaker 3: they were having, then who knows what kind of abuse

401
00:21:06,712 --> 00:21:09,511
Speaker 3: that she was also subjected to. Who was willing to

402
00:21:09,591 --> 00:21:14,472
Speaker 3: sort of face discipline, face fines, face punishment, and physically

403
00:21:14,591 --> 00:21:17,432
Speaker 3: run away from this very isolated farm over several distance

404
00:21:17,552 --> 00:21:19,552
Speaker 3: in that weather to try and seek support.

405
00:21:20,071 --> 00:21:22,351
Speaker 1: Well, that then kind of brings us to the next

406
00:21:22,351 --> 00:21:25,191
Speaker 1: part of the story, because, as you mentioned, Natan was

407
00:21:25,232 --> 00:21:26,792
Speaker 1: known as a bit of a womanizer, and there was

408
00:21:26,831 --> 00:21:30,191
Speaker 1: a young maid who you've mentioned Sigur, she's known for short.

409
00:21:30,671 --> 00:21:35,071
Speaker 1: She's sixteen years old, and the story goes that he's

410
00:21:35,151 --> 00:21:38,271
Speaker 1: actually taking her to bed as well as having an

411
00:21:38,272 --> 00:21:41,952
Speaker 1: affair with this married lady the poet and had at

412
00:21:41,992 --> 00:21:44,911
Speaker 1: some stage had a relationship with Agnes, And that's the

413
00:21:44,952 --> 00:21:47,391
Speaker 1: way the story kind of unfolds. But what can we

414
00:21:47,472 --> 00:21:50,391
Speaker 1: read into there is you say, perhaps there was some

415
00:21:50,472 --> 00:21:53,032
Speaker 1: abuse because this young girl has no choice but to

416
00:21:53,071 --> 00:21:56,032
Speaker 1: go to bed with the wealthy farmer who is essentially

417
00:21:56,111 --> 00:21:59,751
Speaker 1: her lord and master, as Agnes would have had to

418
00:21:59,792 --> 00:22:02,071
Speaker 1: have done she was told as well, So we don't

419
00:22:02,111 --> 00:22:05,631
Speaker 1: know whether he was just a womanizer who was you know,

420
00:22:06,391 --> 00:22:08,071
Speaker 1: had access to women that he could deal with as

421
00:22:08,111 --> 00:22:10,272
Speaker 1: he pleased, or whether there was some abuse going on.

422
00:22:10,472 --> 00:22:15,391
Speaker 1: What do we know about this sort of quadruple relationship

423
00:22:15,472 --> 00:22:18,192
Speaker 1: going on? And then Frederick who you've mentioned, also comes

424
00:22:18,232 --> 00:22:20,792
Speaker 1: in as well as supposedly being in love with Sigar,

425
00:22:20,871 --> 00:22:23,471
Speaker 1: this young maid, and this is what has set off

426
00:22:24,192 --> 00:22:26,991
Speaker 1: the chain of events that eventually leads to them being executed.

427
00:22:27,272 --> 00:22:30,151
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, this is something that I have thought so

428
00:22:30,311 --> 00:22:33,431
Speaker 3: long about. And you know, when I wrote Burial Rights,

429
00:22:34,111 --> 00:22:36,711
Speaker 3: my knowledge was incomplete. I only had access to the

430
00:22:36,712 --> 00:22:40,471
Speaker 3: sources that I had access to. Something quite extraordinary happened

431
00:22:40,512 --> 00:22:43,631
Speaker 3: in twenty nineteen. This case, which I think has long

432
00:22:43,671 --> 00:22:47,752
Speaker 3: had a held of sort of the Icelandic Nations imagination,

433
00:22:48,311 --> 00:22:52,871
Speaker 3: was retried. A modern trial was held by the Icelandic

434
00:22:52,952 --> 00:22:57,232
Speaker 3: Legal Association, but they held it according to contemporary Icelandic law.

435
00:22:57,671 --> 00:23:00,111
Speaker 3: It was extraordinary. I was able to access the transcript

436
00:23:00,111 --> 00:23:03,631
Speaker 3: and I was so fascinated finally getting additional insight into

437
00:23:03,631 --> 00:23:06,752
Speaker 3: the nature of the relationships between Natan and Siga.

438
00:23:06,472 --> 00:23:09,712
Speaker 1: Because they used the primary source documents from that original

439
00:23:09,712 --> 00:23:10,712
Speaker 1: trial to do this right.

440
00:23:10,792 --> 00:23:13,192
Speaker 3: Yes, and a few things were pointed out that seemed

441
00:23:13,911 --> 00:23:16,792
Speaker 3: to both be a miscarriage of justice and also more

442
00:23:16,831 --> 00:23:18,591
Speaker 3: than anything, I mean it's very interesting what is in

443
00:23:18,631 --> 00:23:21,792
Speaker 3: the trial transcripts, but it's also very interesting as to

444
00:23:21,831 --> 00:23:25,351
Speaker 3: what has been omitted and also was not picked up

445
00:23:25,391 --> 00:23:27,792
Speaker 3: as a point of further inquiry. And one of the

446
00:23:27,792 --> 00:23:32,951
Speaker 3: things that really struck me reading the transcript was that Agnes,

447
00:23:33,071 --> 00:23:36,391
Speaker 3: in running away and in the trial had alluded to

448
00:23:37,351 --> 00:23:41,032
Speaker 3: had actually used a word which I think has highly

449
00:23:41,071 --> 00:23:44,792
Speaker 3: euphimistic meaning. It's not actually an Icelandic word at all,

450
00:23:44,831 --> 00:23:47,151
Speaker 3: and there was some consternation amongst the lawyers as to

451
00:23:47,192 --> 00:23:49,351
Speaker 3: what she might have intended, or whether she was alluding

452
00:23:49,391 --> 00:23:51,751
Speaker 3: to a French word, being again a very educated and

453
00:23:51,792 --> 00:23:56,192
Speaker 3: literary person despite her low station, and the word basically translates,

454
00:23:56,272 --> 00:23:58,992
Speaker 3: or it's approximation is that she was being scolded by

455
00:23:59,071 --> 00:24:02,272
Speaker 3: Natan and Siger was being scolded. Now, I found it

456
00:24:02,391 --> 00:24:05,392
Speaker 3: very interesting that several male academics have taken that at

457
00:24:05,431 --> 00:24:09,472
Speaker 3: literal value, suggesting verbal abuse eventually between Natan and Siga.

458
00:24:09,831 --> 00:24:13,152
Speaker 3: There are several other linguists, and there are several other

459
00:24:13,192 --> 00:24:16,392
Speaker 3: female historians who have taken a different view and say

460
00:24:16,431 --> 00:24:19,752
Speaker 3: that no, no, no, she was clearly alluding to sexual abuse,

461
00:24:20,032 --> 00:24:21,951
Speaker 3: that this was a way where she could speak to

462
00:24:21,992 --> 00:24:24,871
Speaker 3: that at a time where you could not speak very

463
00:24:25,032 --> 00:24:28,591
Speaker 3: you know, explicitly about these sorts of things. That Agnes,

464
00:24:28,831 --> 00:24:31,512
Speaker 3: in running away and seeking help from the priest, had

465
00:24:31,512 --> 00:24:33,992
Speaker 3: probably been in a situation where both she and Sega

466
00:24:34,032 --> 00:24:37,272
Speaker 3: were being sexually abused by Natan, and that no longer

467
00:24:37,391 --> 00:24:39,751
Speaker 3: was a place where they felt safe, that she was

468
00:24:39,792 --> 00:24:42,432
Speaker 3: willing to risk punishment in order to tell people about

469
00:24:42,431 --> 00:24:45,392
Speaker 3: what was happening. And in both instances she was simply

470
00:24:45,431 --> 00:24:48,351
Speaker 3: returned back home to a lucas da there and was

471
00:24:48,552 --> 00:24:51,872
Speaker 3: also made she was forced to apologize to Natan. What

472
00:24:51,911 --> 00:24:54,552
Speaker 3: the modern Icelandic lawyers pointed out was that no one

473
00:24:54,631 --> 00:24:57,431
Speaker 3: ever asked the priests what she had come to him about.

474
00:24:57,591 --> 00:25:01,191
Speaker 3: No one ever in the original trial interrogated the reasons

475
00:25:01,192 --> 00:25:04,311
Speaker 3: for her running away. If anything, it was probably just

476
00:25:04,431 --> 00:25:10,512
Speaker 3: pointed to, you know, general kind of strict streak of disobedience,

477
00:25:10,631 --> 00:25:13,111
Speaker 3: I guess, And I find that so interesting. I feel

478
00:25:13,151 --> 00:25:15,511
Speaker 3: like there is this whole thread of interrogation which was

479
00:25:15,671 --> 00:25:19,831
Speaker 3: neglected in the original trials, which didn't at all question

480
00:25:19,911 --> 00:25:21,991
Speaker 3: the conditions that the women were living under. And one

481
00:25:22,032 --> 00:25:24,951
Speaker 3: of the very interesting things was that they also pointed

482
00:25:24,952 --> 00:25:28,431
Speaker 3: out what sentence Nataan would have received for sexual abuse

483
00:25:28,472 --> 00:25:30,512
Speaker 3: of a minor. In terms of saying that, I find

484
00:25:30,512 --> 00:25:31,232
Speaker 3: that very good telling.

485
00:25:34,631 --> 00:25:37,631
Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime conversations with me, Claire Murphy,

486
00:25:38,151 --> 00:25:41,552
Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Hannah Kent, author of Burial Rights, a

487
00:25:41,631 --> 00:25:45,471
Speaker 1: novel inspired by the true story of Agnes Martistotia, the

488
00:25:45,591 --> 00:25:48,272
Speaker 1: last woman to be executed in Northern Iceland.

489
00:25:48,871 --> 00:25:50,512
Speaker 2: Next, we head back to March.

490
00:25:50,311 --> 00:25:54,311
Speaker 1: Fourteen, eighteen twenty eight to piece together what really led

491
00:25:54,351 --> 00:26:01,591
Speaker 1: to the plan to kill Natan Kettelsen. Let's go back

492
00:26:02,071 --> 00:26:08,071
Speaker 1: to March fourteen, eighteen twenty eight. There is a lot

493
00:26:08,151 --> 00:26:12,192
Speaker 1: of conjecture about what happened that night and what led

494
00:26:12,272 --> 00:26:15,751
Speaker 1: up to happening that night, because as far as Agnes

495
00:26:15,752 --> 00:26:18,512
Speaker 1: has been painted, she was the one, as you mentioned,

496
00:26:18,552 --> 00:26:22,432
Speaker 1: who kind of banded Frederic and Siga together with her

497
00:26:22,631 --> 00:26:26,472
Speaker 1: to take down Natan. But then there's also some commentary

498
00:26:26,512 --> 00:26:30,191
Speaker 1: about Frederick's mother being involved in this as well. Or

499
00:26:30,272 --> 00:26:32,111
Speaker 1: was it Frederick who was in love with Siga who

500
00:26:32,151 --> 00:26:35,111
Speaker 1: wanted to kill Natan in order to take her as

501
00:26:35,272 --> 00:26:37,232
Speaker 1: his bride if he was allowed to at that time.

502
00:26:37,272 --> 00:26:39,191
Speaker 1: I imagine his father owned a farm he would have

503
00:26:39,192 --> 00:26:44,231
Speaker 1: been allowed to. So what's your understanding of who was

504
00:26:44,272 --> 00:26:47,752
Speaker 1: the one who set this plan in motion, Who was

505
00:26:47,792 --> 00:26:50,792
Speaker 1: the one who was the motivator for all of these

506
00:26:50,792 --> 00:26:53,152
Speaker 1: people to become entangled in Natan's death.

507
00:26:54,111 --> 00:26:55,952
Speaker 3: It's a very good question, and to a certain degree

508
00:26:55,992 --> 00:26:57,711
Speaker 3: we will never know. Let me take you through the

509
00:26:57,712 --> 00:27:00,631
Speaker 3: events of March fourteenth, as then known and generally proved

510
00:27:00,631 --> 00:27:02,712
Speaker 3: to be correct. That in the middle of the night,

511
00:27:03,311 --> 00:27:07,552
Speaker 3: Agnes woke up the neighboring farm at Stapoko. It was

512
00:27:07,591 --> 00:27:09,831
Speaker 3: a considerable distance away. She would have had to travel

513
00:27:09,871 --> 00:27:12,391
Speaker 3: throughout the night to reach there, and she woke up

514
00:27:12,431 --> 00:27:14,591
Speaker 3: the family, and she said that at Lucasta there was

515
00:27:14,631 --> 00:27:17,311
Speaker 3: on fire, and that Natan and another guest he had

516
00:27:17,351 --> 00:27:19,831
Speaker 3: had over for the night, a man called Pieta, were

517
00:27:19,871 --> 00:27:23,232
Speaker 3: trapped inside, and the family came running back with her.

518
00:27:23,712 --> 00:27:25,672
Speaker 3: She had said that she thought the fire started from

519
00:27:25,671 --> 00:27:28,512
Speaker 3: the kitchen, that it was accidental, and in the early

520
00:27:28,552 --> 00:27:30,112
Speaker 3: hours of the morning the bodies of the two men

521
00:27:30,151 --> 00:27:32,951
Speaker 3: were found in their beds. However, as it grew lighter,

522
00:27:33,631 --> 00:27:37,391
Speaker 3: it was realized by the farmer of Stappocote that perhaps

523
00:27:37,472 --> 00:27:40,151
Speaker 3: not all was as it seemed, because on closer examination

524
00:27:40,232 --> 00:27:43,271
Speaker 3: of the corps's blood was found on remnants of unbird clothing,

525
00:27:43,631 --> 00:27:47,071
Speaker 3: and both seemed to also have stab wounds. This then

526
00:27:47,151 --> 00:27:50,351
Speaker 3: led the farmer to contact the district commissioner, who was

527
00:27:50,391 --> 00:27:52,071
Speaker 3: a man called Bion Blundell. He was sort of like

528
00:27:52,111 --> 00:27:55,272
Speaker 3: the local sheriff in the area, and then he questioned

529
00:27:55,311 --> 00:27:59,032
Speaker 3: Agnes and Cigareta. Apparently there were some discrepancies in what

530
00:27:59,111 --> 00:28:02,351
Speaker 3: they said, and then both of them eventually said that yes,

531
00:28:02,472 --> 00:28:04,631
Speaker 3: the men had been murdered, and they both said it

532
00:28:04,671 --> 00:28:08,232
Speaker 3: had been done by Fredrik Sigerson, the local farmer. Now,

533
00:28:08,391 --> 00:28:11,911
Speaker 3: Friedrich and Natan had had some very public disputes in

534
00:28:11,952 --> 00:28:15,311
Speaker 3: the past, so there was enmity between the two men.

535
00:28:15,831 --> 00:28:19,792
Speaker 3: The enmity increased when it became known to people that

536
00:28:19,831 --> 00:28:24,672
Speaker 3: Fridrich wished to marry Sigritha. Naton at this time was probably,

537
00:28:24,752 --> 00:28:29,151
Speaker 3: I believe, abusing Sigritha. He Friedrich would have needed Natan's

538
00:28:29,151 --> 00:28:32,152
Speaker 3: permission to marry Siga, and he refused to give it.

539
00:28:32,552 --> 00:28:34,792
Speaker 3: So these are all sort of the various threads of

540
00:28:34,871 --> 00:28:38,191
Speaker 3: conflict which I think came together to the point where

541
00:28:38,272 --> 00:28:42,552
Speaker 3: Friedrich said that Agnes had suggested that he killed Natan

542
00:28:43,152 --> 00:28:45,471
Speaker 3: and that they all take a share of his money

543
00:28:45,671 --> 00:28:48,751
Speaker 3: that was supposedly somewhere again in the house, and that

544
00:28:48,872 --> 00:28:52,512
Speaker 3: was Frithric's story. Sigritha too seemed to say that both

545
00:28:52,592 --> 00:28:55,312
Speaker 3: she and Friedrich and Agnes were hopeful to get their

546
00:28:55,352 --> 00:28:57,911
Speaker 3: hands on Naton's wealth and that was the motivation for

547
00:28:57,992 --> 00:29:02,511
Speaker 3: the murder. However, Agnes, whose testimony, as I said, was

548
00:29:02,512 --> 00:29:06,072
Speaker 3: not transcribed, did not say that that was the reason why.

549
00:29:06,392 --> 00:29:10,352
Speaker 3: She instead indicated that it was Natan's behavior towards her

550
00:29:10,472 --> 00:29:13,232
Speaker 3: and Sigrotha, and also Friedrich in his sort of powermongering

551
00:29:13,312 --> 00:29:15,511
Speaker 3: and you know, abusing the whole that he had as

552
00:29:15,552 --> 00:29:20,072
Speaker 3: farmer over you know, Sigretha and Agnes, and that she

553
00:29:20,192 --> 00:29:23,632
Speaker 3: wanted to be rid of him in the sense that

554
00:29:23,712 --> 00:29:26,751
Speaker 3: she wanted her misery and her suffering to end. We

555
00:29:26,792 --> 00:29:29,711
Speaker 3: don't know if she ever said anything explicitly. In a

556
00:29:29,792 --> 00:29:32,632
Speaker 3: very strange turn of events, Sigrotha was permitted to speak

557
00:29:32,671 --> 00:29:35,711
Speaker 3: with Agnes before Agnes came up and testified during the courts,

558
00:29:35,752 --> 00:29:37,472
Speaker 3: and then it was never written down what she said,

559
00:29:37,472 --> 00:29:40,032
Speaker 3: so we actually don't know. We only have anecdotal evidence.

560
00:29:40,552 --> 00:29:43,272
Speaker 3: So then from that point onwards, it was decided that

561
00:29:43,272 --> 00:29:44,792
Speaker 3: the three had been a gang, and whether it was

562
00:29:44,792 --> 00:29:48,352
Speaker 3: through public opinion or because people took pity on Siga

563
00:29:48,472 --> 00:29:50,392
Speaker 3: because she was young and also believed to be quite

564
00:29:50,392 --> 00:29:54,392
Speaker 3: simple minded. People really thought Friedrich and Agnes were the

565
00:29:54,431 --> 00:29:56,191
Speaker 3: ones to blame, and that it had been Agnes who

566
00:29:56,232 --> 00:29:59,791
Speaker 3: had prodded Friedrich to you know, essentially with a hammer

567
00:29:59,832 --> 00:30:03,672
Speaker 3: and a knife kill not done. Pieta, who was also murdered,

568
00:30:04,152 --> 00:30:06,832
Speaker 3: was thought to be just simply in the wrong place time.

569
00:30:07,232 --> 00:30:09,712
Speaker 3: So that is what is thought to be happened. Beyond Lundell,

570
00:30:09,872 --> 00:30:13,472
Speaker 3: who was the man who investigated the crime, who then

571
00:30:13,671 --> 00:30:16,512
Speaker 3: you know also you know, ran the trial and then

572
00:30:16,552 --> 00:30:19,152
Speaker 3: also judge them and sentence these people, something which you

573
00:30:19,312 --> 00:30:23,632
Speaker 3: cannot actually do under contemporary you know, humanitarian law. He

574
00:30:23,671 --> 00:30:26,632
Speaker 3: actually was the person a Sigretha was originally also condemned

575
00:30:26,671 --> 00:30:29,392
Speaker 3: to death, but he later then ran a petition on

576
00:30:29,392 --> 00:30:32,472
Speaker 3: her behalf and had her sentence commuted. And certainly there

577
00:30:32,512 --> 00:30:35,512
Speaker 3: was a lot of warm feeling towards Sigatha as someone

578
00:30:35,552 --> 00:30:38,792
Speaker 3: who was considered to be again quite simple minded, again

579
00:30:38,832 --> 00:30:40,792
Speaker 3: probably in the wrong place at the wrong time, but

580
00:30:40,832 --> 00:30:44,032
Speaker 3: that sympathy was not extended to Agnes, who was you know,

581
00:30:44,272 --> 00:30:46,312
Speaker 3: she was in her early thirties, she was much older

582
00:30:46,352 --> 00:30:50,192
Speaker 3: than Fredric and Cigaretha, and so the trial was then

583
00:30:50,272 --> 00:30:52,991
Speaker 3: supported in Regumik. That I mean that the original verdict,

584
00:30:52,992 --> 00:30:56,431
Speaker 3: and the verdict was then also supported in Copenhagen, and

585
00:30:56,512 --> 00:30:59,432
Speaker 3: it was decided that Agnes and Fridrich would be beheaded

586
00:30:59,472 --> 00:31:02,352
Speaker 3: by broad acts, and interestingly, that it would occur in

587
00:31:02,392 --> 00:31:05,191
Speaker 3: the district in which the murders occurred, something which just

588
00:31:05,232 --> 00:31:08,592
Speaker 3: simply did not happen in Iceland at that time. At

589
00:31:08,592 --> 00:31:11,392
Speaker 3: the time, and this is supported by many sources I read.

590
00:31:11,832 --> 00:31:15,191
Speaker 3: When someone had committed a very very you know, a

591
00:31:15,232 --> 00:31:18,832
Speaker 3: heinous crime and received capital punishment, they were sent to

592
00:31:18,872 --> 00:31:21,992
Speaker 3: Copenhagen where it was carried out. And many sources that

593
00:31:22,032 --> 00:31:24,872
Speaker 3: I read, including diaries from foreign travelers, said that the

594
00:31:24,952 --> 00:31:30,232
Speaker 3: reason for this was because no Icelander was willing to

595
00:31:30,312 --> 00:31:34,191
Speaker 3: kill another Icelander. They just couldn't find anyone to be executioner. Now,

596
00:31:34,392 --> 00:31:38,112
Speaker 3: in a really I find fascinating sort of twist on this,

597
00:31:38,552 --> 00:31:41,751
Speaker 3: beyond Blundell, the district commissioner, the same man who investigated

598
00:31:41,792 --> 00:31:43,952
Speaker 3: the case, the same man whose own wife had been

599
00:31:44,032 --> 00:31:48,072
Speaker 3: saved by Natan when she was very unwell, decided that

600
00:31:48,112 --> 00:31:51,272
Speaker 3: the execution was going to occur not very far away

601
00:31:51,312 --> 00:31:54,032
Speaker 3: at all, from the site of the murders, from where

602
00:31:54,072 --> 00:31:56,592
Speaker 3: all these people lived. He also said that I think

603
00:31:56,592 --> 00:31:58,471
Speaker 3: it was one hundred and fifty men from the local

604
00:31:58,512 --> 00:32:02,392
Speaker 3: community had to attend. His orders were engen mawun danlita,

605
00:32:02,431 --> 00:32:05,152
Speaker 3: which translates to no one may look away, and that

606
00:32:05,192 --> 00:32:08,072
Speaker 3: people who did not attend be fined. And now, in

607
00:32:08,112 --> 00:32:10,832
Speaker 3: my mind, this is a man who is attempting to

608
00:32:11,072 --> 00:32:14,672
Speaker 3: seize control and re establish his dominance over a district.

609
00:32:14,792 --> 00:32:17,431
Speaker 3: So we basically that's where we end up on the

610
00:32:17,431 --> 00:32:20,312
Speaker 3: twelfth of January in eighteen thirty, where first Prutik was

611
00:32:20,352 --> 00:32:23,792
Speaker 3: beheaded and then Agnes and surrounded by one hundred and

612
00:32:23,832 --> 00:32:26,352
Speaker 3: fifty local farmers who were told that they could they

613
00:32:26,352 --> 00:32:27,191
Speaker 3: could not look away.

614
00:32:28,431 --> 00:32:31,392
Speaker 1: We touched on earlier that there wasn't a lot of

615
00:32:31,392 --> 00:32:38,471
Speaker 1: infrastructure in Iceland outside of reykievic really, so where do

616
00:32:38,712 --> 00:32:44,112
Speaker 1: Frederick and Agnes stay? I imagine there's no prisons in

617
00:32:44,152 --> 00:32:46,112
Speaker 1: the area where they're going to be executed.

618
00:32:46,152 --> 00:32:49,272
Speaker 2: It's farming land. So what happens to them?

619
00:32:49,312 --> 00:32:51,552
Speaker 1: And this is really where your book where a rights

620
00:32:51,592 --> 00:32:54,951
Speaker 1: kind of picks up, is this time between being found

621
00:32:54,992 --> 00:32:59,032
Speaker 1: guilty and getting sentenced to then the execution.

622
00:32:59,352 --> 00:33:03,152
Speaker 3: So what happens to them. It's extraordinary. I remember I

623
00:33:03,192 --> 00:33:05,912
Speaker 3: had done all this research about Iceland in the nineteenth century,

624
00:33:06,312 --> 00:33:08,592
Speaker 3: had researched as much as I could about Agnes's life,

625
00:33:08,632 --> 00:33:10,792
Speaker 3: which by that stage wasn't a great deal. But when

626
00:33:10,792 --> 00:33:12,991
Speaker 3: I finally arrived in Iceland, i think it was in

627
00:33:12,992 --> 00:33:15,752
Speaker 3: twenty ten, to find out as much as I could.

628
00:33:16,431 --> 00:33:18,592
Speaker 3: One of the things I discovered was exactly this that

629
00:33:18,712 --> 00:33:20,832
Speaker 3: I had always assumed that Agnes would have been sent out,

630
00:33:20,832 --> 00:33:23,112
Speaker 3: whether it sent down south where there was a prison,

631
00:33:23,392 --> 00:33:28,272
Speaker 3: but she wasn't. She was essentially she was essentially billeted

632
00:33:28,312 --> 00:33:32,032
Speaker 3: out because there were no local sort of services. But also,

633
00:33:33,671 --> 00:33:36,632
Speaker 3: you know, I don't know whether it was Blondell talked

634
00:33:36,632 --> 00:33:39,592
Speaker 3: a lot about having His reasons for having the execution

635
00:33:39,712 --> 00:33:42,112
Speaker 3: in Iceland was to save money, something which I think

636
00:33:42,152 --> 00:33:45,511
Speaker 3: can be easily disproven by his many letters apologizing for

637
00:33:45,552 --> 00:33:48,752
Speaker 3: overdrawn States of funds for feeding and clothing the prisoners.

638
00:33:49,232 --> 00:33:52,192
Speaker 3: But Agnes was sent to a family. She was sent

639
00:33:52,232 --> 00:33:54,832
Speaker 3: to a family who lived basically in the house next

640
00:33:54,872 --> 00:33:58,191
Speaker 3: door to where she was born, people that she probably knew,

641
00:33:58,272 --> 00:34:01,032
Speaker 3: it being a very very small community, and she lived

642
00:34:01,072 --> 00:34:05,352
Speaker 3: with them, or I think it was approximately six months

643
00:34:05,552 --> 00:34:09,752
Speaker 3: until the time her execution was arranged, and that was

644
00:34:09,792 --> 00:34:13,192
Speaker 3: where I think, particularly as a novelist, I really wanted

645
00:34:13,232 --> 00:34:16,591
Speaker 3: to go in and look at what that would have

646
00:34:16,592 --> 00:34:19,152
Speaker 3: been like, both for the family but also for Agnes,

647
00:34:19,551 --> 00:34:21,991
Speaker 3: because I do really think that it is impossible to

648
00:34:22,031 --> 00:34:25,072
Speaker 3: spend a considerable amount of time with someone in close

649
00:34:25,112 --> 00:34:30,071
Speaker 3: proximity without reaching a kind of intimacy, whether that's for

650
00:34:30,152 --> 00:34:32,471
Speaker 3: good or bad. And that's where I guess, you know,

651
00:34:32,672 --> 00:34:35,712
Speaker 3: my role as a storyteller, my interest in the human

652
00:34:35,752 --> 00:34:37,832
Speaker 3: face of history, really came to the fore and in

653
00:34:38,112 --> 00:34:40,352
Speaker 3: wanting to write the book in that way. So Barriya

654
00:34:40,392 --> 00:34:42,352
Speaker 3: Wrightes is set in the last six months of Agnes's

655
00:34:42,392 --> 00:34:45,031
Speaker 3: life as she is sent for this family. But I

656
00:34:45,031 --> 00:34:49,752
Speaker 3: mean the family existed. I've heard from relatives. I found

657
00:34:49,792 --> 00:34:52,991
Speaker 3: all their names and the soul registers, which is when

658
00:34:52,991 --> 00:34:55,272
Speaker 3: the priests would come around every winter and write down

659
00:34:55,272 --> 00:34:57,151
Speaker 3: everyone who was living in every farm and what their

660
00:34:57,192 --> 00:34:59,431
Speaker 3: position to the head was and how well they could read,

661
00:34:59,632 --> 00:35:02,272
Speaker 3: and what their behavior was like. And I found the

662
00:35:02,352 --> 00:35:04,911
Speaker 3: last entry in Agnes's life where she was living with

663
00:35:04,951 --> 00:35:07,392
Speaker 3: this family at Cornsa. It was said that she was

664
00:35:07,471 --> 00:35:11,912
Speaker 3: highly literate. She gave her name as Agnes Jomstoty, which

665
00:35:11,951 --> 00:35:14,752
Speaker 3: proved my suspicion that she was aware that the father,

666
00:35:15,312 --> 00:35:17,832
Speaker 3: you know, Icelanic having a patronymic naming system, was not

667
00:35:17,911 --> 00:35:20,591
Speaker 3: Magnus Magnus stot did at all, but was in fact

668
00:35:20,712 --> 00:35:24,071
Speaker 3: this married farmer. And then, in a very interesting sort

669
00:35:24,072 --> 00:35:28,672
Speaker 3: of discovery, the priest had provided one word to describe

670
00:35:28,672 --> 00:35:31,752
Speaker 3: her behavior since living with the family, and that was mixed.

671
00:35:32,192 --> 00:35:34,392
Speaker 3: That she had a lot of mixed behavior, And that,

672
00:35:34,471 --> 00:35:36,111
Speaker 3: to me, was all I needed to know, because at

673
00:35:36,112 --> 00:35:37,911
Speaker 3: this stage, all I had been hearing was that she

674
00:35:37,991 --> 00:35:41,151
Speaker 3: was terrible, she was bad, she was argumentative, she had

675
00:35:41,192 --> 00:35:43,951
Speaker 3: a very sharp tongue. And then there's this word, which

676
00:35:43,991 --> 00:35:47,471
Speaker 3: is like, you know, she was complex, she was good

677
00:35:47,511 --> 00:35:49,631
Speaker 3: and bad, she was a bit of everything, which is

678
00:35:49,991 --> 00:35:52,071
Speaker 3: really what I had been striving to find. I wasn't

679
00:35:52,112 --> 00:35:54,072
Speaker 3: trying to find her innocence at all. I was simply

680
00:35:54,112 --> 00:35:57,272
Speaker 3: trying to find evidence of her humanity. And I took

681
00:35:57,312 --> 00:35:59,832
Speaker 3: a great deal from that word, and then really sort

682
00:35:59,872 --> 00:36:03,392
Speaker 3: of ib speculated and imagined what the relationship she might

683
00:36:03,431 --> 00:36:05,431
Speaker 3: have had with the individual members of that family would

684
00:36:05,431 --> 00:36:05,832
Speaker 3: have been like.

685
00:36:09,392 --> 00:36:12,712
Speaker 1: After the break, I asked Hannah, what the people witnessed

686
00:36:12,792 --> 00:36:15,912
Speaker 1: on the day of Agnes's execution and who was told

687
00:36:16,232 --> 00:36:21,511
Speaker 1: they had to watch. So she spent six months living

688
00:36:21,511 --> 00:36:25,832
Speaker 1: with this family on this rather isolated farm, and then

689
00:36:26,272 --> 00:36:28,791
Speaker 1: she's taken to the execution site, which is the place

690
00:36:28,832 --> 00:36:31,392
Speaker 1: that you saw that first brought this story to you.

691
00:36:32,832 --> 00:36:36,231
Speaker 1: What would have been like for the people who were

692
00:36:36,551 --> 00:36:38,112
Speaker 1: told that they could not look away?

693
00:36:38,152 --> 00:36:41,151
Speaker 2: Like, what are they seeing on these hillicks on.

694
00:36:41,152 --> 00:36:44,832
Speaker 1: The day that this execution happens, Because Agnes isn't the

695
00:36:44,872 --> 00:36:47,591
Speaker 1: only one. Frederick is also executed on the same day,

696
00:36:47,632 --> 00:36:49,712
Speaker 1: So what is it that they're seeing.

697
00:36:50,632 --> 00:36:52,951
Speaker 3: It's so interesting. I've read many accounts of the execution

698
00:36:53,031 --> 00:36:55,231
Speaker 3: and they're all a little bit different. But some things

699
00:36:55,232 --> 00:36:57,312
Speaker 3: we do know. We know that a platform was built

700
00:36:57,392 --> 00:36:59,312
Speaker 3: upon the three hills and that it was dressed with

701
00:36:59,392 --> 00:37:02,632
Speaker 3: red cloth. We know that an axe had been specially

702
00:37:02,712 --> 00:37:06,511
Speaker 3: commissioned for this event, and we also know that a

703
00:37:06,551 --> 00:37:09,511
Speaker 3: block of wood, an oak block, had been imported again

704
00:37:09,632 --> 00:37:12,792
Speaker 3: specifically for the execution, which again kind of flies in

705
00:37:12,792 --> 00:37:15,911
Speaker 3: the face of Blundell's assertion that this was an inexpensive operation.

706
00:37:16,072 --> 00:37:18,031
Speaker 3: All of these things cost a lot of money, and

707
00:37:18,031 --> 00:37:20,712
Speaker 3: there's many letters where again he's talking about how expensive

708
00:37:20,712 --> 00:37:23,712
Speaker 3: it was to procure these items in Iceland. We also

709
00:37:23,832 --> 00:37:27,872
Speaker 3: know that very interestingly enough, Gwydmund de Kettlsen, who was

710
00:37:27,951 --> 00:37:33,272
Speaker 3: Nutton's brother, was asked by Blundall to execute Agnes and Fridrich,

711
00:37:33,352 --> 00:37:35,511
Speaker 3: which I find extraordinary. Can you imagine that in a

712
00:37:35,511 --> 00:37:37,511
Speaker 3: modern day going to the brother and saying, will you

713
00:37:37,551 --> 00:37:40,232
Speaker 3: take off their heads? It was something that he did do.

714
00:37:40,951 --> 00:37:44,031
Speaker 3: There is considerable amount of speculation as to whether he

715
00:37:44,152 --> 00:37:46,312
Speaker 3: was forced to do it or whether he asked to

716
00:37:46,352 --> 00:37:50,031
Speaker 3: do it. In fact, Gwydmund de Kettelsen's family have long

717
00:37:50,192 --> 00:37:52,431
Speaker 3: argued that no, no, no, he absolutely did not want

718
00:37:52,471 --> 00:37:54,031
Speaker 3: to do it. He was made to do it. He

719
00:37:54,192 --> 00:37:57,272
Speaker 3: was paid I think, you know, silver dollars. I think

720
00:37:57,352 --> 00:38:00,312
Speaker 3: is described, and he gave it all the way, so

721
00:38:00,431 --> 00:38:01,991
Speaker 3: you know, you can understand why they're at pains to

722
00:38:02,031 --> 00:38:05,911
Speaker 3: stress his reluctance. But it's true that he first of all,

723
00:38:05,951 --> 00:38:08,591
Speaker 3: Fritri was let out, Agnes was kept out of sight.

724
00:38:09,192 --> 00:38:13,792
Speaker 3: He had by that stage apparently recognized his guilt and

725
00:38:13,832 --> 00:38:16,832
Speaker 3: he saw the acts as a blessed branch of justice,

726
00:38:16,951 --> 00:38:20,231
Speaker 3: which is my English translation of what it was thought

727
00:38:20,272 --> 00:38:23,431
Speaker 3: he said. And he seemed to be. He seemed to

728
00:38:23,431 --> 00:38:29,072
Speaker 3: have accepted his execution, He seemed to have accepted his sentence. However,

729
00:38:29,072 --> 00:38:33,031
Speaker 3: when it came to Agnes, the various anecdotes, you know,

730
00:38:33,072 --> 00:38:36,272
Speaker 3: whether this is just ancestors relating accounts that they had

731
00:38:36,312 --> 00:38:38,672
Speaker 3: heard and what had been passed down the family to

732
00:38:39,272 --> 00:38:42,991
Speaker 3: more formal letters, you know, they varied so wildly. The

733
00:38:43,072 --> 00:38:45,911
Speaker 3: formal report was that they both went contentedly and peacefully

734
00:38:45,911 --> 00:38:48,952
Speaker 3: to their deaths. That was that. But then I also,

735
00:38:48,991 --> 00:38:51,312
Speaker 3: when I was in Iceland, started to find out that no,

736
00:38:51,672 --> 00:38:54,031
Speaker 3: there was lots of people who thought that Agnes had

737
00:38:54,072 --> 00:38:58,591
Speaker 3: actually fainted, that she was hysterical, that she had wet herself,

738
00:38:58,991 --> 00:39:02,151
Speaker 3: that she had to have her hair held to bring

739
00:39:02,192 --> 00:39:04,191
Speaker 3: her head down, that she had faced the wrong way.

740
00:39:04,911 --> 00:39:08,312
Speaker 3: All these accounts, again not official and not formal in

741
00:39:08,352 --> 00:39:10,511
Speaker 3: any way, and all differing from one another, but all

742
00:39:10,551 --> 00:39:13,512
Speaker 3: having a similar truth in the sense of her emotional state.

743
00:39:14,031 --> 00:39:16,792
Speaker 3: And I think I would absolutely put money on the

744
00:39:16,792 --> 00:39:18,991
Speaker 3: fact that she did not go contentedly to her death,

745
00:39:19,031 --> 00:39:21,792
Speaker 3: that she was incredibly distraught. We also know that she

746
00:39:21,991 --> 00:39:25,551
Speaker 3: was accompanied by a priest who she had specifically requested

747
00:39:25,592 --> 00:39:28,192
Speaker 3: attend her in the last months of her life. In

748
00:39:28,232 --> 00:39:31,352
Speaker 3: one account, he was holding her shawl about her and

749
00:39:31,392 --> 00:39:33,911
Speaker 3: offered to take it off her himself as she went

750
00:39:33,991 --> 00:39:36,431
Speaker 3: to go put her head on the block, and Beyondale

751
00:39:36,511 --> 00:39:40,032
Speaker 3: chastised him and called him her serving lady. There's another

752
00:39:40,072 --> 00:39:43,231
Speaker 3: account which says that he put his arms around her

753
00:39:43,431 --> 00:39:46,152
Speaker 3: as she knelt down. There is another account that she

754
00:39:46,232 --> 00:39:48,071
Speaker 3: reached out and took his hand and he held it

755
00:39:48,152 --> 00:39:50,711
Speaker 3: while she was beheaded. And so when you put all

756
00:39:50,792 --> 00:39:53,951
Speaker 3: these various local stories together, you start to get a

757
00:39:54,192 --> 00:39:57,632
Speaker 3: very kind of harrowing and incredibly move being seen of

758
00:39:58,471 --> 00:40:01,471
Speaker 3: what their execution was like. And in the very interesting

759
00:40:01,511 --> 00:40:05,431
Speaker 3: thing was that, in the years after Barry Arts was published,

760
00:40:05,511 --> 00:40:08,751
Speaker 3: I have been tacted by several descendants of this truce

761
00:40:08,911 --> 00:40:11,872
Speaker 3: thought far their consent, and all of them agreed and

762
00:40:11,951 --> 00:40:15,192
Speaker 3: said that they had heard from their grandmothers that he

763
00:40:15,312 --> 00:40:18,551
Speaker 3: was forever changed after this event, and that it had

764
00:40:18,592 --> 00:40:21,591
Speaker 3: affected him very deeply, and that there had absolutely been

765
00:40:21,592 --> 00:40:25,272
Speaker 3: a sympathy between him and Agnes. So that too, is

766
00:40:25,312 --> 00:40:30,112
Speaker 3: something that I think I felt intuitively or had gleaned

767
00:40:30,152 --> 00:40:32,192
Speaker 3: from the resources that I was reading, and wanted to

768
00:40:32,192 --> 00:40:34,312
Speaker 3: put in the book. But it's also something which has

769
00:40:34,352 --> 00:40:37,431
Speaker 3: then belatedly sort of stood up to the local anecdotes

770
00:40:37,431 --> 00:40:39,152
Speaker 3: and the family histories. I haven't encountered.

771
00:40:39,991 --> 00:40:43,431
Speaker 1: That must have been just awful for those who were

772
00:40:43,511 --> 00:40:48,151
Speaker 1: forced to watch that. But the horror doesn't end there.

773
00:40:48,192 --> 00:40:51,352
Speaker 1: Because Frederic and Agnes are denied Christian burials, and in

774
00:40:51,392 --> 00:40:55,152
Speaker 1: fact their heads are separated from burial from their bodies

775
00:40:55,551 --> 00:40:58,352
Speaker 1: and placed on pikes on the side of the road.

776
00:40:59,152 --> 00:41:02,872
Speaker 1: What message was being sent to the community by them

777
00:41:02,911 --> 00:41:03,312
Speaker 1: doing this.

778
00:41:03,792 --> 00:41:05,832
Speaker 3: I think it's very clear. I think that it was

779
00:41:05,911 --> 00:41:10,112
Speaker 3: very clear that Bien Blondeau was basically bidding to regain

780
00:41:10,232 --> 00:41:13,911
Speaker 3: quite strict control over the people in his jurisdiction. It's

781
00:41:13,951 --> 00:41:16,111
Speaker 3: also backed up by the fact that this area there

782
00:41:16,152 --> 00:41:19,432
Speaker 3: had been a rise, a documented rise of petty theft.

783
00:41:19,872 --> 00:41:23,672
Speaker 3: There was you know, behavior that wasn't you know, possibly illegal,

784
00:41:23,712 --> 00:41:26,111
Speaker 3: and you know, in a multitude of ways, we do

785
00:41:26,192 --> 00:41:28,632
Speaker 3: know that theft was a real issue, particularly sheep stealing,

786
00:41:28,911 --> 00:41:31,232
Speaker 3: and I really do think that this is further evidence,

787
00:41:31,272 --> 00:41:33,711
Speaker 3: like the barbarity of sticking heads on pikes and leaving

788
00:41:33,752 --> 00:41:37,232
Speaker 3: them for everyone was further evidence that he was really

789
00:41:37,232 --> 00:41:39,272
Speaker 3: trying to set an example. You know that he was

790
00:41:39,352 --> 00:41:41,431
Speaker 3: not a district commissioner to be messed with that he

791
00:41:41,471 --> 00:41:43,511
Speaker 3: was really going to lay down the law. And I

792
00:41:43,511 --> 00:41:45,511
Speaker 3: think this is further supported by the reaction of the

793
00:41:45,551 --> 00:41:47,671
Speaker 3: local communities to the fact that their heads were set

794
00:41:47,712 --> 00:41:51,471
Speaker 3: on spikes. Everyone was against it. Everyone thought it was horrible,

795
00:41:51,991 --> 00:41:55,672
Speaker 3: and they disappeared during the night, and it was thought,

796
00:41:55,832 --> 00:41:58,072
Speaker 3: or there was whispered about that there was one woman,

797
00:41:58,352 --> 00:42:02,872
Speaker 3: in particular, a house mistress of a local farm, who

798
00:42:03,031 --> 00:42:05,632
Speaker 3: was dead set against it. Thought it was absolutely, you know,

799
00:42:05,712 --> 00:42:08,591
Speaker 3: a terrible thing to do, and she ordered her serving boy,

800
00:42:09,352 --> 00:42:11,312
Speaker 3: a servant who lived with her, to go in the

801
00:42:11,431 --> 00:42:14,472
Speaker 3: night to take the heads off the spikes and bury

802
00:42:14,511 --> 00:42:17,031
Speaker 3: them in the Thingata churchyard, which is near where her

803
00:42:17,031 --> 00:42:20,192
Speaker 3: farm was. And every account I read said that this

804
00:42:20,712 --> 00:42:22,671
Speaker 3: is what they thought happened. So it was probably like

805
00:42:22,672 --> 00:42:24,872
Speaker 3: a very well known secret. It was something that people

806
00:42:24,911 --> 00:42:26,792
Speaker 3: were sort of aware of, and this was sort of

807
00:42:26,832 --> 00:42:30,591
Speaker 3: accepted as why the heads disappeared during the night, that

808
00:42:30,632 --> 00:42:32,951
Speaker 3: they were buried by local farmers who thought it apparent.

809
00:42:33,872 --> 00:42:37,232
Speaker 1: It's interesting, though, because in the records of the aftermath

810
00:42:37,272 --> 00:42:41,032
Speaker 1: of this execution, there's this idea that the heads have disappeared,

811
00:42:41,112 --> 00:42:42,912
Speaker 1: even though you say that it was kind of common

812
00:42:42,951 --> 00:42:45,112
Speaker 1: knowledge as to where they might be. But then like

813
00:42:45,152 --> 00:42:48,552
Speaker 1: one hundred years later, a woman comes forward and says,

814
00:42:49,392 --> 00:42:51,751
Speaker 1: she's come to me in a dream, I know where

815
00:42:51,752 --> 00:42:55,471
Speaker 1: the heads are, and is able to point them to

816
00:42:55,551 --> 00:42:58,951
Speaker 1: exactly where those heads are buried. Do we presume that

817
00:42:59,152 --> 00:43:01,191
Speaker 1: maybe some law had been passed down to her over

818
00:43:01,192 --> 00:43:03,272
Speaker 1: the years that she kind of knew where this was.

819
00:43:03,792 --> 00:43:06,711
Speaker 3: This is the extraordinary thing. Yeah. The story as it's known,

820
00:43:06,832 --> 00:43:09,591
Speaker 3: and it is quite famous because it is extraordinary, is

821
00:43:09,632 --> 00:43:12,111
Speaker 3: that there was a psychic we know. Her name was Cecelia.

822
00:43:13,031 --> 00:43:15,111
Speaker 3: She asked that her name not be made known until

823
00:43:15,112 --> 00:43:19,511
Speaker 3: after her death. But for some years she was aware

824
00:43:19,511 --> 00:43:22,352
Speaker 3: of her own psychic abilities, but she she lardly kept secret.

825
00:43:22,991 --> 00:43:25,392
Speaker 3: But for some years she had found herself engaged in

826
00:43:25,471 --> 00:43:27,752
Speaker 3: automatic writing. You know where you sort of enter estate

827
00:43:27,792 --> 00:43:29,832
Speaker 3: and the words are not yours that are coming out

828
00:43:29,832 --> 00:43:32,511
Speaker 3: on the paper. And she realized after a time that

829
00:43:32,551 --> 00:43:35,232
Speaker 3: this was the voice of Agnes Magness dotted, and that

830
00:43:35,312 --> 00:43:37,632
Speaker 3: Agnes had come to her with a very specific request,

831
00:43:37,672 --> 00:43:40,832
Speaker 3: which was that her body be moved to consecrated ground. Now,

832
00:43:40,832 --> 00:43:44,352
Speaker 3: as you say, the directions were essentially to bury them

833
00:43:44,352 --> 00:43:48,591
Speaker 3: without market in very simple coffins. You know, not what

834
00:43:48,672 --> 00:43:50,991
Speaker 3: is it not facing west or east or you know,

835
00:43:51,072 --> 00:43:54,312
Speaker 3: the proper direction that people had that the ground absolutely

836
00:43:54,392 --> 00:43:57,471
Speaker 3: could not be consecrated, and no one by this stage

837
00:43:57,551 --> 00:44:00,631
Speaker 3: knew where they were buried. She ignored the letters, which

838
00:44:00,632 --> 00:44:03,671
Speaker 3: I think is really interesting. She thought, no, no, I'm good,

839
00:44:03,872 --> 00:44:06,152
Speaker 3: but they kept coming. So eventually she reached out, this

840
00:44:06,232 --> 00:44:09,872
Speaker 3: is after two or three years, and contacted someone and said, look,

841
00:44:09,911 --> 00:44:12,152
Speaker 3: I think I think we need to I think we

842
00:44:12,152 --> 00:44:14,671
Speaker 3: need to find the bodies, and we need to move

843
00:44:14,712 --> 00:44:17,352
Speaker 3: them to a church yard, probably thing it out, because

844
00:44:17,392 --> 00:44:21,551
Speaker 3: that's where everyone assumes at the headsone. So this other

845
00:44:21,632 --> 00:44:25,752
Speaker 3: man goes up north and with the directions of the

846
00:44:25,792 --> 00:44:29,792
Speaker 3: psychic and people and went to a local farmer, which

847
00:44:29,792 --> 00:44:32,272
Speaker 3: Agnes had said would be helpful in finding the bodies.

848
00:44:32,951 --> 00:44:35,791
Speaker 3: The farm was basically right next to the execution site,

849
00:44:35,832 --> 00:44:38,631
Speaker 3: if not the land on which it occurred, and he

850
00:44:38,752 --> 00:44:41,232
Speaker 3: was called old Magnus by Agnes. His name was in

851
00:44:41,272 --> 00:44:43,392
Speaker 3: fact Magnus fains Starre. There a man who went north

852
00:44:43,471 --> 00:44:45,152
Speaker 3: was very surprised to find that, yes, there was a

853
00:44:45,232 --> 00:44:47,991
Speaker 3: man worth living on this farm, and he basically said

854
00:44:48,031 --> 00:44:51,312
Speaker 3: to the emissary of the psychics, look, I don't believe

855
00:44:51,352 --> 00:44:54,191
Speaker 3: that she's been contacted by Agnes. But I do think

856
00:44:54,232 --> 00:44:56,631
Speaker 3: that it's probably right to move them to consecrated ground,

857
00:44:56,672 --> 00:44:58,591
Speaker 3: that we probably shouldn't just have bodies lying out in

858
00:44:58,632 --> 00:45:01,712
Speaker 3: this field, And so he agreed to help search for them,

859
00:45:01,951 --> 00:45:04,272
Speaker 3: and the man said, well, the psychic actually ended up

860
00:45:04,312 --> 00:45:07,392
Speaker 3: asking Agnes where the bodies were, and she had given

861
00:45:07,431 --> 00:45:09,951
Speaker 3: a very sort of poetic series of directions, which is

862
00:45:10,031 --> 00:45:14,511
Speaker 3: sort of lucky at high summer's sunset next to a

863
00:45:14,592 --> 00:45:18,792
Speaker 3: boar of gravel. And so they followed the instructions and

864
00:45:18,911 --> 00:45:22,832
Speaker 3: within fifteen minutes they found the heads, which Agnes had

865
00:45:22,832 --> 00:45:25,951
Speaker 3: also said were not buried in the Thing Gada churchyard,

866
00:45:26,031 --> 00:45:29,071
Speaker 3: but had in fact been buried on the site her

867
00:45:29,312 --> 00:45:31,551
Speaker 3: and the man thought, well, no, everyone knows they're in

868
00:45:31,592 --> 00:45:33,392
Speaker 3: Thing Gata. I don't think that's true when the psychic

869
00:45:33,431 --> 00:45:35,792
Speaker 3: had originally told him, but that's what they found. They

870
00:45:35,872 --> 00:45:38,352
Speaker 3: found the heads buried there, and it was then thought

871
00:45:38,872 --> 00:45:41,071
Speaker 3: that the servant who had been sent to get them

872
00:45:41,112 --> 00:45:43,031
Speaker 3: had been too spooked and simply buried them on the

873
00:45:43,112 --> 00:45:47,031
Speaker 3: ground just underneath where they lay. The most extraordinary thing

874
00:45:47,031 --> 00:45:49,752
Speaker 3: about this discovery, too, was that Agnes, in denying that

875
00:45:49,832 --> 00:45:52,151
Speaker 3: they were in Thing Gata through the psychic had said

876
00:45:52,192 --> 00:45:54,832
Speaker 3: that a remnant of the steak still remained in her head,

877
00:45:55,192 --> 00:45:57,872
Speaker 3: And when they unburied the skulls they found ten centimeters

878
00:45:57,911 --> 00:46:00,951
Speaker 3: of wood inside one of them, and that's kind of extraordinary.

879
00:46:01,352 --> 00:46:03,872
Speaker 3: And then following the rest of her directions in a

880
00:46:03,911 --> 00:46:06,872
Speaker 3: bar of gravel, they found two coffins buried, and that

881
00:46:07,031 --> 00:46:09,192
Speaker 3: was the way that the bodies ended up being discovered.

882
00:46:09,312 --> 00:46:12,232
Speaker 3: And then later latterly, I think, after a week or so,

883
00:46:12,832 --> 00:46:15,151
Speaker 3: moved up to the church at at Turn, where again

884
00:46:15,272 --> 00:46:19,232
Speaker 3: Agnes had requested that they be buried. It's extraordinary story.

885
00:46:19,551 --> 00:46:21,712
Speaker 3: It's one of those things where lots of people have

886
00:46:21,832 --> 00:46:24,352
Speaker 3: tried to find I think there were some distant relations

887
00:46:24,551 --> 00:46:27,392
Speaker 3: or the psychic had married into people from the area,

888
00:46:27,392 --> 00:46:29,271
Speaker 3: and people said, well, surely she knew all this time.

889
00:46:29,752 --> 00:46:31,992
Speaker 3: But there are some facts which I think are really curious,

890
00:46:32,031 --> 00:46:33,792
Speaker 3: such as the fact that she had refused to do

891
00:46:33,832 --> 00:46:35,991
Speaker 3: anything about it for a very long time, the fact

892
00:46:35,991 --> 00:46:38,431
Speaker 3: that even the farming family who had lived on the

893
00:46:38,511 --> 00:46:40,551
Speaker 3: site still didn't know where they were buried. This is

894
00:46:40,551 --> 00:46:45,192
Speaker 3: an extraordinarily kind of spooky, paranormal epilogue to this incredibly

895
00:46:45,272 --> 00:46:45,752
Speaker 3: sad story.

896
00:46:46,511 --> 00:46:49,071
Speaker 1: Seems Agnes has a habit of reaching out from beyond

897
00:46:49,112 --> 00:46:52,792
Speaker 1: the grave, if your book is any marker of that too.

898
00:46:53,471 --> 00:46:57,671
Speaker 1: But it's interesting now to look back at because there's

899
00:46:57,672 --> 00:47:00,792
Speaker 1: a lot of Icelandic people who've read your book who

900
00:47:01,072 --> 00:47:06,752
Speaker 1: really have then rethought about what they've known about this story.

901
00:47:07,551 --> 00:47:12,991
Speaker 1: And do you think her legacy has changed somewhat over

902
00:47:13,031 --> 00:47:15,792
Speaker 1: the years from that immediate aftermath where she was considered

903
00:47:15,792 --> 00:47:18,872
Speaker 1: to be this monster? Do you think people have rethought

904
00:47:18,951 --> 00:47:22,712
Speaker 1: about her motivations and perhaps the injustices that she was

905
00:47:23,352 --> 00:47:24,431
Speaker 1: experiencing at that time.

906
00:47:24,832 --> 00:47:27,551
Speaker 3: I think people are undoubtedly curious, and I don't think

907
00:47:27,592 --> 00:47:29,832
Speaker 3: this is necessarily because of burial rights. I think it's

908
00:47:29,872 --> 00:47:33,632
Speaker 3: a contemporary concern. But I also think that there have

909
00:47:33,712 --> 00:47:36,152
Speaker 3: been many people who with whom it never sat easy.

910
00:47:36,352 --> 00:47:39,031
Speaker 3: This depiction of Agnes is evil. I think that the

911
00:47:39,712 --> 00:47:44,151
Speaker 3: execution particularly was a very widely traumatic event for many

912
00:47:44,192 --> 00:47:46,312
Speaker 3: people in this area. And I mean, you have to

913
00:47:46,392 --> 00:47:49,752
Speaker 3: appreciate too, I think that Icelanders are very close to

914
00:47:49,832 --> 00:47:53,432
Speaker 3: the past. They're very sort of genealogically aware. The past

915
00:47:53,592 --> 00:47:55,792
Speaker 3: is not as far away as perhaps it is in

916
00:47:55,911 --> 00:47:59,511
Speaker 3: other cultures, and many people are able to sort of,

917
00:47:59,872 --> 00:48:03,712
Speaker 3: you know, trace their descendancy from times in the Sagas,

918
00:48:04,232 --> 00:48:07,591
Speaker 3: and I think that what has been so apparent is

919
00:48:07,991 --> 00:48:11,192
Speaker 3: to me particularly is that people still are connected to

920
00:48:11,312 --> 00:48:14,032
Speaker 3: this case, not simply because they might live in the area,

921
00:48:14,112 --> 00:48:16,872
Speaker 3: but because they're related to people who were involved. So

922
00:48:17,272 --> 00:48:23,792
Speaker 3: everyone's viewpoints, I think, are colored by you know, family stories,

923
00:48:23,911 --> 00:48:27,471
Speaker 3: their own connection. I think that Agnes is someone who

924
00:48:27,712 --> 00:48:30,551
Speaker 3: has mystified people for many years, probably because not a

925
00:48:30,592 --> 00:48:33,192
Speaker 3: great deal has been about her, and all the accounts

926
00:48:33,232 --> 00:48:35,352
Speaker 3: of the execution and the murders, they're all sort of

927
00:48:35,431 --> 00:48:39,152
Speaker 3: titled the story of Nartan Kettelsen, and Agnes being a

928
00:48:39,232 --> 00:48:42,752
Speaker 3: maligned figure kind of works in his story. You know,

929
00:48:42,872 --> 00:48:45,631
Speaker 3: she's just kind of the cooked up, stereotypical evil woman,

930
00:48:45,752 --> 00:48:48,312
Speaker 3: like she's Lady Macbeth rubbing her hands together behind the scenes.

931
00:48:48,712 --> 00:48:51,832
Speaker 3: And I think people have always, maybe quietly or you know,

932
00:48:51,951 --> 00:48:54,031
Speaker 3: been troubled by that. There was a really interesting film

933
00:48:54,072 --> 00:48:56,632
Speaker 3: which came out in nineteen ninety five in Iceland called Agnes,

934
00:48:57,152 --> 00:49:00,471
Speaker 3: and in that they made her incredibly sympathetic, they made

935
00:49:00,511 --> 00:49:04,112
Speaker 3: her someone who was almost angelic, and I'd seen it

936
00:49:04,272 --> 00:49:08,312
Speaker 3: and was interested in the reasons for doing that. But

937
00:49:08,592 --> 00:49:10,792
Speaker 3: in my mind, particularly as a novelist, and what I

938
00:49:10,951 --> 00:49:13,792
Speaker 3: was interested in. I felt that, you know, good and

939
00:49:13,872 --> 00:49:16,431
Speaker 3: bad at the same dichomic dichotomy, right. I wanted to,

940
00:49:16,832 --> 00:49:18,911
Speaker 3: you know, I wanted to muddy the waters a little bit.

941
00:49:18,951 --> 00:49:22,152
Speaker 3: I wanted to get some more complexity and contradiction. But

942
00:49:22,232 --> 00:49:24,552
Speaker 3: I think even the fact that that was made shows

943
00:49:24,592 --> 00:49:27,632
Speaker 3: a lingering desire to understand more about her. A farmer

944
00:49:27,712 --> 00:49:30,191
Speaker 3: once said to me, there's a great uneasiness he has

945
00:49:30,511 --> 00:49:34,032
Speaker 3: with this story and that it really doesn't leave people alone.

946
00:49:34,112 --> 00:49:35,792
Speaker 3: And I think that's very true. And I think it's

947
00:49:35,872 --> 00:49:38,911
Speaker 3: because there is so much about it which is mysterious.

948
00:49:39,392 --> 00:49:41,911
Speaker 3: There is so much about it which is you know,

949
00:49:42,072 --> 00:49:45,431
Speaker 3: filled with conflict or you know, things that we don't know.

950
00:49:45,511 --> 00:49:47,112
Speaker 3: I think there are just so many gaps still in

951
00:49:47,152 --> 00:49:48,952
Speaker 3: the story, and I think that's one of the reasons

952
00:49:48,991 --> 00:49:51,031
Speaker 3: why it continues to hold people's curiosity.

953
00:49:51,632 --> 00:49:54,872
Speaker 1: Hannah, thank you so much for sharing your insights on

954
00:49:55,031 --> 00:49:58,031
Speaker 1: Agnes with us today. We really appreciate it for you

955
00:49:58,272 --> 00:49:59,911
Speaker 1: sharing some time with us and talking about this.

956
00:50:00,072 --> 00:50:02,872
Speaker 3: Thank you, it's a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

957
00:50:05,632 --> 00:50:07,792
Speaker 2: Thanks to Hannah for helping us tell this story.

958
00:50:07,991 --> 00:50:10,432
Speaker 1: You can find her book Burial Rights and her memoir

959
00:50:10,551 --> 00:50:13,551
Speaker 1: Always Home, Always Homesick at the link in our show notes.

960
00:50:13,911 --> 00:50:17,232
Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations is hosted by me Claire Murphy. The

961
00:50:17,312 --> 00:50:20,711
Speaker 1: producer is Charlie Blackman, with audio designed by Jacob Brown.

962
00:50:21,272 --> 00:50:23,671
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back next week

963
00:50:23,832 --> 00:50:25,471
Speaker 1: with another True Crime Conversation