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Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Mama Meyer acknowledges the

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Speaker 1: traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is

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Speaker 1: recorded on.

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Speaker 2: Hello out louders, we are bringing you something a bit

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Speaker 2: special in your feet today. It is a special episode

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Speaker 2: of Mama MIA's podcast, Sees the Yay.

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Speaker 1: Who's on it? Jesse?

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Speaker 2: I am did you guys get asked? I thought you

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Speaker 2: would both like to listen to it actually, because it's

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Speaker 2: really interesting in that the host, Sarah Davidson interviews me.

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Speaker 2: She speaks to me about such things as you come up,

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Speaker 2: mayor maybe you come up and I try to just

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Speaker 2: like really politely talk about our relationship, but career, ambition

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Speaker 2: and the juggle that all working parents. The podcast is

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Speaker 2: all about people who have found their version of joy

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Speaker 2: in their own lives. So Sarah Davidson, Ye, so she

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Speaker 2: was a lawyer. You've got that hope A moment took

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Speaker 2: me a moment. She was a lawyer who turned into

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Speaker 2: an entrepeur word and she basically interviews a variety of

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Speaker 2: really interesting people for this week about slumming it, their work,

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Speaker 2: the guest must have canceled, and their play. Look, I

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Speaker 2: think everyone's going to go viral guys, can you make

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Speaker 2: this episode also that everyone knows I am please enjoy.

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Speaker 2: Happiness can't be felt by the other people around you

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Speaker 2: who are envious. If you think that other people's envy

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Speaker 2: is going to build you up, it's it's not because

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Speaker 2: you can't touch that. Like who says you have to

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Speaker 2: write a book every year? Who says that you've got

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Speaker 2: to say yes to this incredible opportunity that is going

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Speaker 2: to tire you out so much that your marriage suffers.

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Speaker 2: That's my goal when I get those incredible moments, to

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Speaker 2: actually be able to feel them.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the C's the YA Podcast. Busy and happy

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Speaker 1: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what

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Speaker 1: makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but

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Speaker 1: rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than

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Speaker 1: one way. So this is a platform to hear and

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Speaker 1: explore the stories of those who found lives. They adore,

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Speaker 1: the good, bad and ugly. The best and worst days

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Speaker 1: will bear all the facets of seizing your yay. I'm

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Speaker 1: Sarah Davidson or Spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned unentrepreneur

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Speaker 1: who swapped the suits and heels to co found matcha

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Speaker 1: maiden and matcha milkbar. CZA is a series of conversations

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Speaker 1: on finding a life you love and exploring the self doubt, challenge,

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Speaker 1: joy and fulfillment along the way. Yiahborhood, we are back

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Speaker 1: with a guest episode for you, and I'm thrilled to

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Speaker 1: have one of Australia's most known and loved voices on

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Speaker 1: the show this week, the inimitable Jesse Stevens. Many of

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Speaker 1: you will probably recognize Jesse, or at least recognize her voice,

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Speaker 1: as one of the hosts of the chart topping podcast

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Speaker 1: Mamma Mia Out Loud, among many other shows in the

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Speaker 1: prolific mummamea network of which Jesse is also an executive

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Speaker 1: editor and which we you may have noticed, are so

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Speaker 1: excited to have joined recently in a brand new chapter

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Speaker 1: for CZA. While Jesse is now dominating the airwaves and

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Speaker 1: has also authored two incredible books, you may not know

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Speaker 1: that she actually began as a very junior Burger editorial

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Speaker 1: assistant a decade ago at Mamma Maya and worked her

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Speaker 1: way up the ranks to become one of the few

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Speaker 1: people who can say that they've been in the one

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Speaker 1: workplace for ten years. An example that you don't have

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Speaker 1: to leave your job or leave your workplace to grow

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Speaker 1: and find new yea's and one of the coolest parts

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Speaker 1: of this story. Jesse is an executive editor at Mamma

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Speaker 1: Mia alongside her twin sister, Claire Stevens, another of Australia's

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Speaker 1: most known and loved voices that you will likely recognize.

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Speaker 1: They both study different things in their undergraduate but then

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Speaker 1: went on to complete a master's of research left academia,

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Speaker 1: began as editorial assistants together at Mamma Maya, and they

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Speaker 1: have worked their way up in different but parallel ways.

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Speaker 1: And the two also have not just brothers, twin brothers.

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Speaker 1: That's two sets in one family, so it was fascinating

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Speaker 1: to learn about such a unique and special facet to

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Speaker 1: her path. Ya Jesse is also just a little bit

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Speaker 1: ahead of me as a working mum and such a

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Speaker 1: great source of inspiration, having lent her wisdom on the

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Speaker 1: Juggle on a chapter of The Juggle, the book by

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Speaker 1: my dear friend and manager Genevieve Day, who you've heard

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Speaker 1: from just a couple of episodes ago in our Caesar

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Speaker 1: Baby episode. Despite having many mutual friends and working in

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Speaker 1: some of the same circles. I'd actually never chatted to

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Speaker 1: Jesse before, but you would never know because she is

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Speaker 1: such an incredible conversationalist. And I hope that you guys

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Speaker 1: enjoy this one as much as I did. Jesse Stevens,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to CZA.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I'm very excited.

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited that we made it through multiple reschedules

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Speaker 1: to sit down and record today, being in similar chapters

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Speaker 1: of juggling motherhood with work, and that you just completely

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Speaker 1: understood the logistical che challenges of recording. But I'm also

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Speaker 1: excited because, of course, you were a voice that most

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Speaker 1: of Australia already knows and loves. Executive editor and host

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Speaker 1: at Mama Mia, which is a family CZA is so

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Speaker 1: thrilled to have recently joined, So absolutely delighted to have

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Speaker 1: you today.

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Speaker 2: It's the relief of having when you have been unreliable

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Speaker 2: in terms of I have to reschedule because babysitting issues, work, whatever.

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Speaker 2: The relief of having someone else cancel the next one

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Speaker 2: is just so good. All my guilt evaporates and I'm like, yes,

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Speaker 2: I'm not the only one who's stuffed up this scheduling,

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Speaker 2: so I quite like that I feel like you genuinely

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Speaker 2: didn't judge.

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Speaker 1: Me, oh only because I knew I would also reschedule,

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Speaker 1: just as manager. So I am very proud of us

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Speaker 1: for making it today.

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Speaker 2: Me too. It's a miracle.

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Speaker 1: Well for the very few people who don't already know.

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Speaker 1: You are the executive editor at Mamma Mia, hosting Mama

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Speaker 1: Mia out Loud, Canceled, and most recently the Baby Bubble,

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Speaker 1: as well as having hosted Hello book Club and once

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Speaker 1: upon a Time, much to my pleasure, True Crime Conversations.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I did that for the first probably two years

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Speaker 2: I launched it, and I love true crime. I still

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Speaker 2: love true crime. But after doing it for a few years,

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Speaker 2: you know, I did some fascinating interviews and I learned

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Speaker 2: so much, but I felt like I was overstretched, and

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Speaker 2: that when there's a project, or when there's a thing

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Speaker 2: that you really care about, like that podcast and giving

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Speaker 2: the audience quality, then the kindest thing I could do

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Speaker 2: for them was to hand it over. And so I've

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Speaker 2: handed it over and to watch it just grow under

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Speaker 2: hosts that could give it more than I could has

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Speaker 2: been such a joy. But like I learned so much

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Speaker 2: doing that project.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I'm so obsessed with true crime, and

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Speaker 1: I love that you've been able to dip your toe

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Speaker 1: in so many different things and podcast across many different

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Speaker 1: topics within the network during your time. But my favorite

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Speaker 1: thing really is that people walk into your life in

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Speaker 1: the chapter you're in now, and it's so easy to

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Speaker 1: assume that you know, it's such a prestigious role as

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Speaker 1: executive editor, it's easy to assume that it was an

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Speaker 1: overnight success, that it happened, you know, in a really smooth,

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Speaker 1: straightforward way, that you always knew you wanted to end

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Speaker 1: up in the media, and it so rarely actually happens

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Speaker 1: that way. We get to hear you speak about so

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Speaker 1: many things that are really topical, but rarely get to

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Speaker 1: hear about, you know, your childhood, or what your earliest

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Speaker 1: hopes and dreams were. That you ended up studying degrees

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Speaker 1: that don't necessarily make sense for a career later on

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Speaker 1: in the media. So let's go back to your childhood,

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Speaker 1: those early days, your first part time job, you know,

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Speaker 1: fourteen and nine months your school life. I read an

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Speaker 1: article you wrote recently about how people's year twelve results

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily correlate to later on, but you put other

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Speaker 1: peoples in and not your own. I researched and found

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Speaker 1: out it was a ninety eight point five, so I

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Speaker 1: obviously started out very academically strong. So yeah, tell us

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Speaker 1: about childhood.

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Speaker 2: It's funny you say fourteen and nine months, because I

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Speaker 2: think there are probably two types of teenagers, and I

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Speaker 2: was the fourteen and nine months teenager. Definitely wanted a job,

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Speaker 2: definitely wanted some independence so that I could buy my

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Speaker 2: own clothes from soup prey, and I worked at a

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Speaker 2: video shop and Boost Juice was the big was the

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Speaker 2: big job, and I was never very good at any

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Speaker 2: of them because my I think I'm hard working, but

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Speaker 2: I think I'm a bit vague. And I remember once

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Speaker 2: at Boost, like leaving the till open. I was meant

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Speaker 2: to close that night, and I think I counted the money,

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Speaker 2: but I left the money in the till and left

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Speaker 2: it open. Don't tell Janine Alistair and the person got

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Speaker 2: there the next morning and like couldn't believe that I'd

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Speaker 2: done it. Look, no one stole it. But I've just

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Speaker 2: never been good at the basics. And even when I

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Speaker 2: started at my mayor a million years later, Claire and

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Speaker 2: I laughed that you know, you'd be asked to go

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Speaker 2: and get a handful of coffees and we'd get all

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Speaker 2: the orders wrong, like, and that's just basic one oh

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Speaker 2: one attention to detail. There's a real vagueness to my

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Speaker 2: brain that I wish I could fix, and I'm yet

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Speaker 2: to be able to do it. But I really enjoyed

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Speaker 2: that independence, I suppose, And at school I certainly wasn't,

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Speaker 2: you know, the smartest in my class or like I

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Speaker 2: remember really loving English and history and all the essay

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Speaker 2: like subjects. And then it was year eleven that I

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Speaker 2: thought Claire and I both thought, what would happen if we,

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Speaker 2: you know, tried our hardest, like really gave something one

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Speaker 2: hundred percent? And maybe other kids have that with sport

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Speaker 2: or with art or with certain hobbies, Like kids who

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Speaker 2: get really good at an instrument. I think it's so

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Speaker 2: important for your self esteem not to see if you

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Speaker 2: come first or tenth or whatever, but like, what am

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Speaker 2: I capable of if I throw everything at this thing?

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Speaker 2: And so Claire and I just got really focused and

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Speaker 2: worked hard in year eleven and twelve, and more than anything,

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Speaker 2: just loved it. We found the harder we worked, the

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Speaker 2: more we enjoyed it, and you know, that year was brilliant.

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Speaker 2: It was the first time I'd ever felt like I

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Speaker 2: guess I felt smart, and I felt like that could

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Speaker 2: be one of my things. And we went to a

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Speaker 2: school that wasn't selective or you know, known for being

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Speaker 2: academic or anything like that. And in year twelve, after

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Speaker 2: we did our HC and I had not you know

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Speaker 2: how all the special private schools do, like you get

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Speaker 2: an estimation of what you're going to get. So all

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Speaker 2: our friends across the river, they were like, I know

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Speaker 2: I'm going to get above ninety five. I had no

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Speaker 2: idea if I was going to get seventy or one hundred,

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Speaker 2: Like no, no, no sense of it. And then it

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Speaker 2: was a few weeks before the results came out a

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Speaker 2: call on my phone from the Department of Studies being like,

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Speaker 2: you have come first in extension history in the state.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know there were state rankings. I could not

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Speaker 2: believe it. And the extension history class we did wasn't

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Speaker 2: a real class. It was six people that met at

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Speaker 2: seven o'clock in the morning, and you know, it was

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Speaker 2: quite self guided. They almost didn't offer it. And so

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Speaker 2: I came first in the state and Claire came fifth, and.

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Speaker 1: Just to be clear to everybody, yeah, so it.

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Speaker 2: Was like Claire came fifth in the state and still

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Speaker 2: was like I'm the Luga in this family. But it

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Speaker 2: was just the weirdest end to the year, and there

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Speaker 2: was all this fuss and Claire and I were on

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Speaker 2: the front page of the paper because every year they

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Speaker 2: love a twin story because it's always a bit weird,

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Speaker 2: the twins that accidentally get the same mark or something.

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Speaker 2: And that was a high. But then, like a lot

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Speaker 2: of kids who feel like they succeeded in year twelve,

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Speaker 2: it was a rude shock. The next five or so

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Speaker 2: years were really really hard, and of course I think

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Speaker 2: they were actually, you know, more important and more character

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Speaker 2: forming than anything before it.

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Speaker 1: And I love the article that you wrote about that

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Speaker 1: sort of intensity of how we approach our year twelve

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Speaker 1: results at the time, and I think it's only getting

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Speaker 1: more and more intense for young people each year, and

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Speaker 1: the pressure that comes with a trying to do the

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Speaker 1: best that you can, but then when you do get

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Speaker 1: your score, trying to do you know, as much as

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Speaker 1: you can with that score, and there's like a hierarchy

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Speaker 1: of jobs and there's these perceptions of success, and then

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Speaker 1: there's you know, there's also the siloing of well, I

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Speaker 1: did humanities, so I'm not, you know, a science person,

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Speaker 1: so I could never be a scientist if I didn't

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Speaker 1: want to. And you know, coming from sort of a

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Speaker 1: historical background, you don't automatically think that that translates to journalism, media, podcasting,

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Speaker 1: public speaking. You know, it's just so interesting that ultimately

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Speaker 1: it doesn't matter, just at the time you don't really

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Speaker 1: know that. So that's why I love hashing through like

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Speaker 1: what your relationship was to your concept of success and

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Speaker 1: your goals kind of at the time, but before we

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Speaker 1: kind of trace through what you actually ended up doing

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Speaker 1: with such an incredible academic performance. The twin thing, so

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Speaker 1: the fact that they the fact that you've already said

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Speaker 1: Claire and I quite a few times, and that obviously

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Speaker 1: other people externally are always making a big deal about

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Speaker 1: it from your perspective, and this is probably I think

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Speaker 1: you probably have been asked about this more than everything else.

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Speaker 1: But what was it like growing up as a twin

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Speaker 1: And are your brothers also twins?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we've got two sets of twins in our family,

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Speaker 2: and in that way, like people who weren't twins were

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Speaker 2: weird like in our sense. Not only was it I

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Speaker 2: don't know what it's like to not be a twin,

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Speaker 2: but I don't know what it's like to grow up

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Speaker 2: with anyone who isn't a twin, because in our family,

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Speaker 2: Mum and Dad were the odd ones out because they

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Speaker 2: didn't have a twin, losers, such losers. So to have

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Speaker 2: this built in best friend. And I don't think all

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Speaker 2: twins are like this, but for both sets of us.

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Speaker 2: And you know, there's also an innate thing of being

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Speaker 2: very shy. I see it in my daughter now, there's

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Speaker 2: a shyness, and I think that it can make you

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Speaker 2: socially maybe a little bit lazy. And you know, whether

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Speaker 2: it's your first day of kindergarten or your first day

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Speaker 2: of year seven, the feeling that everyone else had of

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Speaker 2: taking a deep breath and going, I've got to put

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Speaker 2: myself out there, I've got to meet people, and those

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Speaker 2: really important social skills where you say you know, hi,

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Speaker 2: Aunt Sarah. I didn't necessarily have to develop those until

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Speaker 2: maybe earlier adulthood, where I was known as an individual.

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Speaker 2: But to walk into every room in your whole life

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Speaker 2: besides someone, it's such a safety blanket, I think, and

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Speaker 2: a privilege, and in some ways, you know, in year

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Speaker 2: seven and eight, we got quite badly bullied by a

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Speaker 2: few girls, and I think that there was a I

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Speaker 2: look back, maybe there's something a bit intimidating about twins

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Speaker 2: because they felt like the best friend thing was built

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Speaker 2: in and it couldn't be infiltrated. So there's this thing

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Speaker 2: with young girls where they want their person, like there's

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Speaker 2: this obsession with best friends and they want their one person,

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Speaker 2: and when it couldn't be clear or eye, it was

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Speaker 2: quite easy to push us out. And so those years

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Speaker 2: were really really hard, you know. I remember once we

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Speaker 2: went to the movies with a bunch of friends and

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Speaker 2: we're just stop to be invited because they'd been all

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Speaker 2: this stuff going on. And we got there and they

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Speaker 2: ran away and hid like this, and they hid and

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Speaker 2: they played this practical joke, and so we were at

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Speaker 2: this shopping center like, oh, they've they hid from us,

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Speaker 2: And we didn't have phones, so we had to call

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Speaker 2: mom on a public phone and be like, can you

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Speaker 2: come pick us up? Our friends hid from us, Jessy.

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Speaker 2: And then later we're like, oh, that was really mean.

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Speaker 2: How you hit from us? And they were like it

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Speaker 2: was a joke. You can't take a joke, So.

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Speaker 1: It's not awful.

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Speaker 2: Aren't they awful? They're so so awful, And it's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I just think about Learner and hitting those those years

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Speaker 2: like it, you know, years on, there's like an impact.

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Speaker 2: I still meet certain people who remind me of this

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Speaker 2: girl in year eight, and like this kind of alarm

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Speaker 2: goes off in my head, But I mostly just feel

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Speaker 2: so lucky that I've had someone to debrief on every

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Speaker 2: single day of my life with no judgment and no

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Speaker 2: fear that she's going to go anywhere.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that is the most beautiful description I

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Speaker 1: have ever heard of twin shit, because I feel like,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's so fascinating to anyone who's not a twin.

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Speaker 1: And I love that you said it was so normalized

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Speaker 1: for you, and it's I think that's the same with

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Speaker 1: any defining characteristic of your childhood, is that in all

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Speaker 1: the ways it's different to everyone else. You don't know that,

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Speaker 1: and like we don't become aware of that until much later,

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Speaker 1: and that's when all the like everything starts to kind

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Speaker 1: of go downhill, once we start the comparison and all

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Speaker 1: that stuff. But I love that you had firstly no

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Speaker 1: idea that anyone else was different, but that it has

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Speaker 1: been so formative and positive in that way. Like it's

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Speaker 1: so sweet because I feel like sometimes the dialogue is

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Speaker 1: like the first question so many people ask is like,

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Speaker 1: have you heard a threesome? Do you chick a boyfriend? Like,

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Speaker 1: and it's like, no, I want to know what it

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Speaker 1: was actually like, like, yeah, did you guys get you know,

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Speaker 1: frustrated if people would confuse you, like in a sense

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Speaker 1: that fraternal twins don't get How did it change your

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Speaker 1: identity forming at that age? And I love that you

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Speaker 1: are actually close because I imagine like at times it

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Speaker 1: could have gone the other way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I remember in primary school people used to call

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Speaker 2: us the twins or twinies and we hated it, like

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Speaker 2: we just felt like we weren't even afforded our own names.

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Speaker 2: And it's funny because in adulthood we've kind of re

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Speaker 2: embrace that and being like, oh, that's fine, we are

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Speaker 2: the twins, maybe because we feel more secure in our

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Speaker 2: own identities. But there were moments then, I suppose and

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Speaker 2: maybe same with my brothers, where we felt you feel

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Speaker 2: like a bit of a freak. Show in that way,

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Speaker 2: or that people are looking at you and thinking you're

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Speaker 2: a bit weird, and I didn't love that. And weirdly,

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Speaker 2: we didn't have any other twins in our year, ever,

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Speaker 2: whereas my brother's had three sets of twins, and I

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Speaker 2: think it's probably more common now, but certainly an adulthood,

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Speaker 2: I've seen what a gift it is as well. And

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Speaker 2: having Claire now has her baby is nearly eleven months old,

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Speaker 2: so to have them so close is I didn't realize

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Speaker 2: when we were pregnant what that would mean.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's so special, so special, And I'm an awe

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Speaker 1: of you as well, because I think that it's already

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Speaker 1: such a difficult, like just that chunk of your life

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Speaker 1: formative years is so hard to figure out who you are,

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Speaker 1: and there's so much pressure and so many social norms

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Speaker 1: and expectations that kind of start to creep in. And

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Speaker 1: we talk so much about like the comparison trap, but

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Speaker 1: for you guys there, and I'm always like, well, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't really matter, because there's no parallel universe. You can't

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Speaker 1: compare to the you if you would have done something else.

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Speaker 1: Whereas you guys, it's like there's this living even though

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Speaker 1: you're separate people. In other people's estimation, it's like, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, one of them sciencey and one of them's

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Speaker 1: already like you know, there is this kind of parallel

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Speaker 1: comparison that I can imagine would be kind of difficult

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Speaker 1: for people to be like, well, she chose this and

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Speaker 1: she chose this. But it's beautiful that you ended up

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Speaker 1: both doing the same masters and somehow both ending up

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Speaker 1: in the same job and workplace for the same nearly

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Speaker 1: ten year period, which is incredible, an incredible testament to

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Speaker 1: you both.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and we actually studied different things. Claire went on

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Speaker 2: and did I saw psychology and could have gone on

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Speaker 2: and become a psychologist, like I think it was something

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Speaker 2: she was thinking about for a while. And then I

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Speaker 2: did a master's in history and gender studies, and then

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Speaker 2: we started writing this blog together, which we were just

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Speaker 2: having lots of fun doing. In twenty twelve, and after

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Speaker 2: a few years of doing that, Maya Friedman, who owns

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Speaker 2: One Maya came across it and reached out to us,

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Speaker 2: and I guess that was the dream. But we've never

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Speaker 2: really looked forward, Like, never when we started UNI, it

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Speaker 2: was never like I want to do this and then

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Speaker 2: when we started at my mayor, it was never like

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Speaker 2: I want to do this, It was very much like

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Speaker 2: what do I enjoy doing in this moment. I think

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Speaker 2: I'm still a bit like that, and there's definitely no

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Speaker 2: five to ten, fifteen year plan, but we've definitely shown

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Speaker 2: each other what's possible in different arenas. So I think

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Speaker 2: the comparison thing probably has been hard at times where

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Speaker 2: one of us, you know, has had a moment of

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Speaker 2: six sess and the other is felt a little bit

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Speaker 2: left out. But Claire recently submitted her first manuscript for

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Speaker 2: her first book, and I probably I'm not meant to

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Speaker 2: say this, but screw it or say it. The acknowledgment

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Speaker 2: at the front is just like to Jesse for showing

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Speaker 2: me I could, which was so touching because I didn't

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Speaker 2: realize that by sitting down and going I'm going to

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Speaker 2: write a book, I taught Claire that it was possible.

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Speaker 2: Because of course there are other women who have done that.

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Speaker 2: For me, I would say that watching Holly, my co

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Speaker 2: host on Mummeer out Loud showed me I could do it.

401
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Speaker 2: So I love that idea that it's like you're just

402
00:21:51,367 --> 00:21:53,447
Speaker 2: providing a bit of a blueprint of how such a

403
00:21:53,807 --> 00:21:54,967
Speaker 2: big project can be done.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's why I love this podcast so much,

405
00:22:00,007 --> 00:22:03,807
Speaker 1: is because every different pathway and story that I have

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Speaker 1: the privilege to tell, and I am always trying to

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00:22:06,967 --> 00:22:09,127
Speaker 1: make sure they are as different from each other as possible.

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Speaker 1: I hope that is one listener's blueprint for them believing

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Speaker 1: they could do that, because it's just a visibility thing

410
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Speaker 1: most of the time that you need to believe someone

411
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Speaker 1: else has done it. And I think there is still

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Speaker 1: this romance around When I was five, I wanted to

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Speaker 1: go to space, and this was the astronaut that we

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Speaker 1: had on a couple of weeks ago. She wanted to

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Speaker 1: go to space from her early early childhood and she

416
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Speaker 1: spent her whole life positioning herself to be selected, and

417
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Speaker 1: she became an astronaut and she is in Australia's first

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Speaker 1: astronaut that is astronomically astronomically rare, so rare, and so

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Speaker 1: I love that you haven't always had that plan. You

420
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Speaker 1: haven't needed I think the dots connect anyway, but you

421
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Speaker 1: haven't needed to know that necessarily, as you've put one

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Speaker 1: foot in front of the other exactly and sort of

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Speaker 1: going following your nose in terms of what interests me

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Speaker 1: and what brings me joy and the other stuff will follow.

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Speaker 1: And I've always thought as well that and I think

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Speaker 1: it's similar with the astronaut aspiration. It's like you can

427
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Speaker 1: want something and dream of something, you don't have to

428
00:23:20,247 --> 00:23:23,327
Speaker 1: believe you can do it yet, Like that's okay. I

429
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Speaker 1: think that we've got this thing of like in order

430
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Speaker 1: to actually do the thing, we think we've got to

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Speaker 1: mentally believe in ourselves.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's a bit of a lie. It's

433
00:23:34,767 --> 00:23:37,127
Speaker 2: like when I started writing a book, no part of

434
00:23:37,167 --> 00:23:39,927
Speaker 2: me believed I would finish a book. Yeah, I just

435
00:23:40,527 --> 00:23:43,727
Speaker 2: prove to myself. The belief comes after you do the thing,

436
00:23:44,207 --> 00:23:47,207
Speaker 2: not before it. And so like I think we can

437
00:23:47,207 --> 00:23:50,767
Speaker 2: get focused on kind of eliminating all the self doubt

438
00:23:51,087 --> 00:23:54,567
Speaker 2: cognitively and it's like, just do the thing just like

439
00:23:55,167 --> 00:23:57,847
Speaker 2: whatever it is. Don't think you've got to get into

440
00:23:57,887 --> 00:23:59,767
Speaker 2: the right head space. Same with a podcast, Like if

441
00:23:59,767 --> 00:24:01,567
Speaker 2: you'd said to you years ago, oh, you're going to

442
00:24:01,567 --> 00:24:03,607
Speaker 2: make this many episodes of a podcast, you'd be like,

443
00:24:04,367 --> 00:24:06,887
Speaker 2: I can't do that. I don't have the skills or whatever.

444
00:24:07,287 --> 00:24:09,967
Speaker 2: But then you just develop the skills and you look back,

445
00:24:10,007 --> 00:24:14,407
Speaker 2: and that's where the self esteem actually comes from.

446
00:24:14,447 --> 00:24:17,527
Speaker 1: I love that. I often refer to the quote even

447
00:24:17,527 --> 00:24:19,407
Speaker 1: in my own brain when I've like I'm such a

448
00:24:19,687 --> 00:24:22,967
Speaker 1: we become a product of our generation, which is instigratuity.

449
00:24:23,007 --> 00:24:24,647
Speaker 1: And it's like, I have this dream. I want the

450
00:24:24,727 --> 00:24:27,647
Speaker 1: dream tomorrow, like by nine am, like all before close

451
00:24:27,687 --> 00:24:30,927
Speaker 1: a business, like at the latest. You know, I won't

452
00:24:30,967 --> 00:24:32,967
Speaker 1: wait years for my dream to come true. We want

453
00:24:33,007 --> 00:24:35,527
Speaker 1: everything now, And yeah, I have to remind myself like

454
00:24:35,567 --> 00:24:37,247
Speaker 1: you don't have to see the whole staircase to take

455
00:24:37,287 --> 00:24:40,127
Speaker 1: the first step. You don't need to see the end

456
00:24:40,247 --> 00:24:42,567
Speaker 1: of the story. You just need to start it. And

457
00:24:42,607 --> 00:24:45,207
Speaker 1: the naivety actually often works in your favor because if

458
00:24:45,207 --> 00:24:46,607
Speaker 1: you knew how hard it would be at the end,

459
00:24:46,687 --> 00:24:48,767
Speaker 1: like you wouldn't do it. So it's a good thing

460
00:24:48,847 --> 00:24:52,007
Speaker 1: that we all have to start somewhere exactly. This is

461
00:24:52,047 --> 00:24:56,527
Speaker 1: my favorite part of your story that firstly, you didn't

462
00:24:56,527 --> 00:24:59,647
Speaker 1: necessarily study and get qualified in the thing that you

463
00:24:59,727 --> 00:25:03,167
Speaker 1: ended up doing. But secondly, it's very very rare in

464
00:25:03,207 --> 00:25:05,247
Speaker 1: this day and age to find anyone who has worked

465
00:25:05,247 --> 00:25:08,927
Speaker 1: in the same workplace for nearly ten years. That's incredibly unusual,

466
00:25:09,567 --> 00:25:12,607
Speaker 1: but also that you are now an executive editor in

467
00:25:12,687 --> 00:25:15,527
Speaker 1: the workplace where you began. And I loved this description

468
00:25:15,607 --> 00:25:18,967
Speaker 1: of your first job as an editorial assistant, and the

469
00:25:19,047 --> 00:25:24,807
Speaker 1: job description was loading posts. I loaded posts. I was like,

470
00:25:25,647 --> 00:25:28,007
Speaker 1: if there's ever been an example of like started from

471
00:25:28,047 --> 00:25:31,767
Speaker 1: the bottom. Now I'm here, I was loading posts. Now

472
00:25:31,767 --> 00:25:36,407
Speaker 1: I'm an executive editor. You can climb the ladder. Oh yeah.

473
00:25:36,687 --> 00:25:41,687
Speaker 2: And I started by like there would be submissions sent

474
00:25:41,727 --> 00:25:44,407
Speaker 2: to the inbox, and then I wasn't picking the submissions.

475
00:25:44,447 --> 00:25:46,207
Speaker 2: I was then sent them by an editor being like,

476
00:25:46,247 --> 00:25:48,127
Speaker 2: can you load this into the back end. So it

477
00:25:48,207 --> 00:25:51,607
Speaker 2: was really was putting in images and coming trying with

478
00:25:51,687 --> 00:25:54,727
Speaker 2: a headline and SEO and all of that kind of

479
00:25:54,767 --> 00:25:57,407
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. And then I think they actually

480
00:25:57,487 --> 00:26:00,247
Speaker 2: didn't have that job for a period. So there was

481
00:26:00,287 --> 00:26:03,727
Speaker 2: another job which was basically like filing video. So I

482
00:26:03,727 --> 00:26:05,807
Speaker 2: would go into the back and every video that had

483
00:26:05,807 --> 00:26:08,887
Speaker 2: been done, it was like tag it with relevant terms,

484
00:26:09,247 --> 00:26:10,527
Speaker 2: and I would sit there and tag it and I

485
00:26:10,567 --> 00:26:13,087
Speaker 2: was like, I just like being in this office. And

486
00:26:13,167 --> 00:26:15,087
Speaker 2: sometimes I would load a posts and I would think,

487
00:26:15,447 --> 00:26:17,447
Speaker 2: I think I can write something better than this, Like

488
00:26:17,487 --> 00:26:22,087
Speaker 2: I really I don't think much of myself, but I

489
00:26:22,167 --> 00:26:25,647
Speaker 2: can do better than this, and so Claire and I

490
00:26:25,727 --> 00:26:28,807
Speaker 2: would stay back and write our own stuff, and some

491
00:26:28,847 --> 00:26:31,127
Speaker 2: of it got up and some of it absolutely didn't.

492
00:26:31,567 --> 00:26:35,287
Speaker 2: And we didn't even have the skills to write a

493
00:26:35,327 --> 00:26:38,087
Speaker 2: news story. I had no idea the structure of a

494
00:26:38,167 --> 00:26:43,247
Speaker 2: news I wouldn't know what the first sentence should be. Nothing.

495
00:26:43,247 --> 00:26:44,647
Speaker 2: I knew how to write nessa. I didn't know how

496
00:26:44,687 --> 00:26:47,247
Speaker 2: to write for the internet. And it was only the

497
00:26:47,287 --> 00:26:51,927
Speaker 2: generosity of other people in the office who were very

498
00:26:51,967 --> 00:26:54,607
Speaker 2: busy and shouldn't have given us the time because that

499
00:26:54,767 --> 00:26:57,847
Speaker 2: was not part of their job to sit down and go,

500
00:26:58,447 --> 00:27:01,287
Speaker 2: this is how you do it, give us a like

501
00:27:01,807 --> 00:27:06,247
Speaker 2: pretty stern feedback about what was and wasn't working, and

502
00:27:07,367 --> 00:27:11,327
Speaker 2: we took that on and learn. I don't even I

503
00:27:11,367 --> 00:27:13,607
Speaker 2: wouldn't even say I was a particularly quick learner with

504
00:27:13,647 --> 00:27:17,967
Speaker 2: that stuff, but I was definitely interested and determined. But

505
00:27:18,047 --> 00:27:21,287
Speaker 2: it took like at least a year or two before

506
00:27:21,647 --> 00:27:25,207
Speaker 2: I was writing for the site. And then an opportunity

507
00:27:25,247 --> 00:27:27,807
Speaker 2: came up on Mummy out Loud. One of the hosts left,

508
00:27:28,367 --> 00:27:30,527
Speaker 2: and I think they wanted a younger voice, so they

509
00:27:30,527 --> 00:27:34,167
Speaker 2: gave me an opportunity. I was appalling, like I to

510
00:27:34,247 --> 00:27:38,887
Speaker 2: talk about Chloe Kardashian story maybe, and I couldn't tell

511
00:27:38,927 --> 00:27:42,487
Speaker 2: a story, Like I had no idea how to explain

512
00:27:42,567 --> 00:27:45,407
Speaker 2: how this thing happened because I'd never done it before.

513
00:27:45,927 --> 00:27:50,287
Speaker 2: But for some reason, they gave me another go. And

514
00:27:50,327 --> 00:27:53,007
Speaker 2: I was so nervous and so over prepared and like

515
00:27:53,487 --> 00:27:56,727
Speaker 2: so trying to prove how smart I was, and I

516
00:27:57,047 --> 00:27:59,967
Speaker 2: would just you know, they eventually gave me another go,

517
00:28:00,087 --> 00:28:05,127
Speaker 2: another go, and I got the gig and from there

518
00:28:05,287 --> 00:28:08,407
Speaker 2: it's been you know, I think I was maybe weekend

519
00:28:08,567 --> 00:28:11,487
Speaker 2: editor for a while, assistant head of content and now

520
00:28:11,567 --> 00:28:14,847
Speaker 2: executive editor. Means that I can kind of operate a

521
00:28:14,847 --> 00:28:17,607
Speaker 2: little bit of as an island and do the projects

522
00:28:17,607 --> 00:28:21,647
Speaker 2: and really own the projects that I love, which at

523
00:28:21,647 --> 00:28:25,247
Speaker 2: the moment is podcasting. I just love it.

524
00:28:25,767 --> 00:28:28,847
Speaker 1: Well, you are extraordinary at it, which is amazing. But

525
00:28:28,927 --> 00:28:34,727
Speaker 1: I bet that telling twenty fifteen Jesse who was loading posts,

526
00:28:35,047 --> 00:28:37,487
Speaker 1: that this is where you'd end up. There's just no

527
00:28:37,567 --> 00:28:40,727
Speaker 1: way that you could possibly conceive of being like right

528
00:28:40,727 --> 00:28:43,207
Speaker 1: at the top of this business where you started sort

529
00:28:43,207 --> 00:28:46,207
Speaker 1: of as such a junior. But before we move on

530
00:28:46,287 --> 00:28:48,967
Speaker 1: to sort of how you can position yourself in a

531
00:28:49,007 --> 00:28:52,407
Speaker 1: business and have that faith to keep trying even if

532
00:28:52,447 --> 00:28:54,207
Speaker 1: you don't feel that you're very good at something. At

533
00:28:54,207 --> 00:28:58,247
Speaker 1: the beginning you mentioned just then proving that you were

534
00:28:58,287 --> 00:29:01,487
Speaker 1: really smart. And I think a lot of where people

535
00:29:01,567 --> 00:29:07,527
Speaker 1: go maybe on tangents or diversions or have not misguided

536
00:29:07,567 --> 00:29:09,207
Speaker 1: but have chapters that kind of don't really make sense

537
00:29:09,327 --> 00:29:12,807
Speaker 1: for them, is where they do fall into trying to

538
00:29:12,847 --> 00:29:15,447
Speaker 1: prove things to other people or making decisions from ego

539
00:29:15,527 --> 00:29:17,687
Speaker 1: rather than as you mentioned, just like what makes me happy,

540
00:29:17,727 --> 00:29:20,047
Speaker 1: what's joyful? And I think that is trying to prove

541
00:29:20,087 --> 00:29:23,247
Speaker 1: that you're smart or getting a really good interscore and

542
00:29:23,247 --> 00:29:25,567
Speaker 1: feeling like you have to use every point on the

543
00:29:25,727 --> 00:29:28,807
Speaker 1: degree that you choose, and then you know you do.

544
00:29:28,927 --> 00:29:31,487
Speaker 1: You have a bachelor's degree in modern history and gender

545
00:29:31,527 --> 00:29:34,407
Speaker 1: studies and then a master's degree of research, which is

546
00:29:34,447 --> 00:29:37,927
Speaker 1: an incredible like not overqualification for what you do, but

547
00:29:38,007 --> 00:29:41,887
Speaker 1: it's not necessarily correlating. Yeah, did you ever feel like, oh,

548
00:29:41,927 --> 00:29:45,447
Speaker 1: I'm walking away from this kind of very academic investment

549
00:29:45,487 --> 00:29:48,407
Speaker 1: of time, Like how how did you reconcile that?

550
00:29:48,687 --> 00:29:54,327
Speaker 2: Definitely? And that's a pool like that research and feeling

551
00:29:54,327 --> 00:29:57,367
Speaker 2: like I existed in this certain environment there was actually

552
00:29:57,727 --> 00:30:01,607
Speaker 2: definitely and I still sense it from the environment. I

553
00:30:01,687 --> 00:30:05,007
Speaker 2: came from a little bit of eyebrow raising.

554
00:30:05,127 --> 00:30:07,207
Speaker 1: I was gonna ask, yeah, a bit of.

555
00:30:07,167 --> 00:30:11,727
Speaker 2: Like seeing as a demotion or like you've sold out

556
00:30:11,887 --> 00:30:17,087
Speaker 2: because and this is actually why I found academia flawed,

557
00:30:17,367 --> 00:30:21,047
Speaker 2: which everyone I know who works in academia agrees with me,

558
00:30:21,567 --> 00:30:26,967
Speaker 2: which is that it is very small, very insular. You

559
00:30:27,087 --> 00:30:30,847
Speaker 2: have the most exciting and important research and papers being

560
00:30:30,887 --> 00:30:36,887
Speaker 2: published that are so inaccessible to anyone outside of the academy,

561
00:30:37,527 --> 00:30:40,767
Speaker 2: and it is an incredible shame because it's really important stuff,

562
00:30:40,847 --> 00:30:44,927
Speaker 2: and there's not enough investment in communicating, Like you can

563
00:30:44,967 --> 00:30:47,127
Speaker 2: do the best research in the world, but if you're

564
00:30:47,167 --> 00:30:49,967
Speaker 2: not able to communicate it to a lot of people,

565
00:30:50,527 --> 00:30:53,567
Speaker 2: then did it ever really get written? And that's what

566
00:30:53,607 --> 00:30:55,447
Speaker 2: I was frustrated by, is that I would write this

567
00:30:56,007 --> 00:30:59,807
Speaker 2: twenty thousand word thesis and I think two people read it.

568
00:31:00,127 --> 00:31:02,527
Speaker 2: And so then when you get on the internet and

569
00:31:02,567 --> 00:31:05,167
Speaker 2: you can write in an hour an article that a

570
00:31:05,247 --> 00:31:08,727
Speaker 2: quarter of a million people read, there is something very

571
00:31:08,767 --> 00:31:13,927
Speaker 2: addictive about that. It's like this this sugar rush, and

572
00:31:14,887 --> 00:31:18,487
Speaker 2: in a way you can get addicted to that and

573
00:31:18,647 --> 00:31:21,567
Speaker 2: see it as more worthwhile, which I don't necessarily think

574
00:31:21,607 --> 00:31:24,847
Speaker 2: it is, and I think there's dangers in that. But

575
00:31:24,927 --> 00:31:28,247
Speaker 2: I also learned with the you know, with thinking you

576
00:31:28,287 --> 00:31:32,647
Speaker 2: need to use everything, you know, every mark that you've

577
00:31:32,647 --> 00:31:35,647
Speaker 2: got or every degree that you have. It's like, every

578
00:31:35,687 --> 00:31:37,807
Speaker 2: time there's an achievement, there's this thing that we do

579
00:31:37,847 --> 00:31:43,007
Speaker 2: where it's like, what's next, What's next, What's next? And

580
00:31:43,047 --> 00:31:47,287
Speaker 2: the pressure and the suffocation of that, and whether it's

581
00:31:47,327 --> 00:31:49,527
Speaker 2: that you've just done really well in your HC or

582
00:31:49,567 --> 00:31:53,487
Speaker 2: you've just had a professional moment, Often those moments like

583
00:31:53,647 --> 00:31:56,007
Speaker 2: the scariest because everyone looks at you and they're like,

584
00:31:56,007 --> 00:31:58,327
Speaker 2: how are you going to back this up? And it's like,

585
00:31:58,927 --> 00:32:02,367
Speaker 2: oh shit, it's never enough, Like it's I've never finished.

586
00:32:03,047 --> 00:32:05,647
Speaker 2: And I think I've learned to kind of let go

587
00:32:05,767 --> 00:32:10,207
Speaker 2: of that a little bit now and go, I'm going

588
00:32:10,287 --> 00:32:12,407
Speaker 2: to consolidate some of the projects I'm already on and

589
00:32:13,247 --> 00:32:14,967
Speaker 2: go and do the best job at this podcast that

590
00:32:15,047 --> 00:32:18,687
Speaker 2: I can. But I think that pressure is a real

591
00:32:18,727 --> 00:32:21,527
Speaker 2: shame because you never get to actually celebrate some of

592
00:32:21,567 --> 00:32:22,567
Speaker 2: those wins.

593
00:32:22,887 --> 00:32:26,127
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, totally. It's just the pace of everything is

594
00:32:26,167 --> 00:32:28,247
Speaker 1: so fast as well that you feel like you'll fall

595
00:32:28,247 --> 00:32:30,407
Speaker 1: out of relevance if you pause for like two seconds

596
00:32:30,447 --> 00:32:33,447
Speaker 1: to celebrate the thing that you were actually hard to achieve.

597
00:32:33,527 --> 00:32:36,167
Speaker 1: And it's interesting that you did feel a bit of

598
00:32:36,207 --> 00:32:39,767
Speaker 1: a raised eyebrow kind of situation because I found that

599
00:32:39,887 --> 00:32:43,887
Speaker 1: when I left law and started business. But that was

600
00:32:43,967 --> 00:32:46,527
Speaker 1: very heavily eCOM based that it was sort of like, Oh,

601
00:32:46,527 --> 00:32:48,727
Speaker 1: what's that cute little thing you're doing on the internet,

602
00:32:49,247 --> 00:32:51,727
Speaker 1: like social media? And it was it was definitely until

603
00:32:51,727 --> 00:32:53,927
Speaker 1: it started making money and then kind of getting in

604
00:32:53,927 --> 00:32:57,247
Speaker 1: the AFR and stuff like that. It was definitely this little, funny,

605
00:32:57,247 --> 00:33:00,127
Speaker 1: cute little side thing that I was doing. And even

606
00:33:00,287 --> 00:33:03,367
Speaker 1: still though I noticed that, and I've admitted this only

607
00:33:03,407 --> 00:33:06,247
Speaker 1: recently because I only realized recently, but I've said it

608
00:33:06,247 --> 00:33:09,847
Speaker 1: in a few episodes that I still can't drop the

609
00:33:10,007 --> 00:33:14,847
Speaker 1: lawyer turned entrepreneur from my title in my mind because

610
00:33:14,847 --> 00:33:17,447
Speaker 1: I'm like, I just need you to know that I

611
00:33:17,487 --> 00:33:19,887
Speaker 1: did do that thing. Yeah, and I do have that

612
00:33:19,967 --> 00:33:22,807
Speaker 1: side of my personality and I don't do it anymore,

613
00:33:23,367 --> 00:33:25,087
Speaker 1: but and I don't think it was a waste of time,

614
00:33:25,127 --> 00:33:28,127
Speaker 1: but it's just there. It's just still part of everything,

615
00:33:28,327 --> 00:33:30,047
Speaker 1: you know, and it's interesting.

616
00:33:30,207 --> 00:33:36,927
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, it's I think as women in any

617
00:33:36,967 --> 00:33:40,567
Speaker 2: sort of media, people are looking for ways to dismiss

618
00:33:40,567 --> 00:33:42,767
Speaker 2: you and call you an idiot, especially if you do

619
00:33:42,847 --> 00:33:48,127
Speaker 2: anything on social media. It's like you are vacuous, you

620
00:33:48,207 --> 00:33:53,167
Speaker 2: are dumb, you are a sellout. So we feel this

621
00:33:53,287 --> 00:33:58,807
Speaker 2: need to like legitimize that, justify that there's actually skill

622
00:33:58,847 --> 00:34:01,687
Speaker 2: in it and that you kind of even building a platform.

623
00:34:01,727 --> 00:34:04,767
Speaker 2: It's like, it's taken a really really long time to

624
00:34:04,807 --> 00:34:08,687
Speaker 2: do pretty much everything in my career, and I I

625
00:34:08,727 --> 00:34:10,207
Speaker 2: don't know if I've feel envy, but there are some

626
00:34:10,287 --> 00:34:13,447
Speaker 2: people who, like, you know, do have this, whether it's

627
00:34:13,487 --> 00:34:16,207
Speaker 2: a breakout book or whether it's something go viral and

628
00:34:16,527 --> 00:34:19,727
Speaker 2: they explode. I certainly haven't had that experience. It's been

629
00:34:19,767 --> 00:34:24,527
Speaker 2: like a really slow growth of doing you know, the

630
00:34:24,567 --> 00:34:27,247
Speaker 2: podcast for a lot of years or whatever. And so

631
00:34:27,407 --> 00:34:31,247
Speaker 2: I do kind of feel like, yeah, maybe I've got

632
00:34:31,247 --> 00:34:37,167
Speaker 2: to justify why I have a right to say anything

633
00:34:37,647 --> 00:34:41,967
Speaker 2: like because and I do actually feel that that's part

634
00:34:41,967 --> 00:34:46,087
Speaker 2: of my identity and that we live in a world

635
00:34:46,127 --> 00:34:51,007
Speaker 2: that is trying to deny research and facts and objectivity,

636
00:34:51,047 --> 00:34:53,367
Speaker 2: which I believe very very strongly in and I think

637
00:34:53,367 --> 00:34:59,167
Speaker 2: it's never been more important to argue with data and research.

638
00:34:59,647 --> 00:35:04,767
Speaker 2: But yeah, I certainly feel like you can be very

639
00:35:04,887 --> 00:35:07,807
Speaker 2: dismissed if you're a woman with any kind of profile.

640
00:35:08,607 --> 00:35:12,247
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting, the subtle type. How long it took

641
00:35:12,247 --> 00:35:14,407
Speaker 1: me to realize that's what I was doing as well?

642
00:35:14,847 --> 00:35:17,327
Speaker 1: I just thought it was funny, and now I'm like, oh,

643
00:35:17,527 --> 00:35:21,567
Speaker 1: there's some weird psychology going on. I think declar about

644
00:35:21,567 --> 00:35:26,527
Speaker 1: that totally. But it's also I think that's another reason

645
00:35:26,527 --> 00:35:28,927
Speaker 1: why I kind of labor over these earlier chapters of

646
00:35:28,927 --> 00:35:31,927
Speaker 1: people's lives, because they don't get as much airtime because

647
00:35:31,927 --> 00:35:34,927
Speaker 1: it's not necessarily what you do right now, but it

648
00:35:35,007 --> 00:35:38,407
Speaker 1: is to remind everyone that you did labor over all

649
00:35:38,487 --> 00:35:40,127
Speaker 1: of the chapters that you've been in to get to

650
00:35:40,167 --> 00:35:42,287
Speaker 1: the position that you're in now. You didn't just walk

651
00:35:42,327 --> 00:35:44,687
Speaker 1: into the host role of one of the bigger shows

652
00:35:44,687 --> 00:35:47,207
Speaker 1: in Australia and know what to do. Like I was

653
00:35:47,247 --> 00:35:49,887
Speaker 1: going back, and your first internship in media was like

654
00:35:50,447 --> 00:35:53,407
Speaker 1: MTV in twenty eleven, and then you've done short courses

655
00:35:53,447 --> 00:35:55,887
Speaker 1: to upskill. So it's and like you said, when you

656
00:35:55,927 --> 00:35:59,727
Speaker 1: first began, you weren't good at podcasting, and I don't

657
00:35:59,847 --> 00:36:03,207
Speaker 1: think people believe that they can upskill in a totally

658
00:36:03,207 --> 00:36:04,967
Speaker 1: new area. I think they think I've got to be

659
00:36:05,007 --> 00:36:08,287
Speaker 1: good at X, or, like I mentioned earlier, the siloing thing.

660
00:36:08,327 --> 00:36:10,327
Speaker 1: It's like, I'm not academic, so I can't do this.

661
00:36:10,487 --> 00:36:12,567
Speaker 1: Or I'm not creative so I can't do this. It's like,

662
00:36:13,367 --> 00:36:16,247
Speaker 1: or you could just find really good mentors and do

663
00:36:16,367 --> 00:36:21,007
Speaker 1: some short courses and try and see. And I feel

664
00:36:21,007 --> 00:36:23,847
Speaker 1: like you've done that. You've added so many strings to

665
00:36:23,887 --> 00:36:27,367
Speaker 1: your bowl along the way to books, writing and producing

666
00:36:27,367 --> 00:36:30,807
Speaker 1: a TV show. Like it's been this beautiful progression of

667
00:36:31,567 --> 00:36:34,567
Speaker 1: every next level has been a different set of skills.

668
00:36:34,647 --> 00:36:38,127
Speaker 2: And in that way, I think it's the only thing

669
00:36:38,247 --> 00:36:40,287
Speaker 2: I think I've done other than And I know it's

670
00:36:40,327 --> 00:36:42,367
Speaker 2: very unpopular to say luck, but I do think that

671
00:36:42,447 --> 00:36:46,327
Speaker 2: luck plays a part. Is that I have said yes.

672
00:36:46,607 --> 00:36:48,927
Speaker 2: I have to my own detriment. I have said yes

673
00:36:48,927 --> 00:36:53,447
Speaker 2: when I probably should have said no. But if someone said, hey,

674
00:36:53,807 --> 00:36:56,927
Speaker 2: do you want to be a weekend writer and that

675
00:36:57,007 --> 00:37:00,487
Speaker 2: means that you work Saturdays and Sundays, I said yes.

676
00:37:00,727 --> 00:37:03,967
Speaker 2: When someone said can you work Christmas Day? I said yes.

677
00:37:04,807 --> 00:37:07,407
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say yes now because I think that that

678
00:37:07,607 --> 00:37:10,367
Speaker 2: has shifted. I think I've earned the right to say no,

679
00:37:11,287 --> 00:37:14,527
Speaker 2: But I do not think I would have had any

680
00:37:14,567 --> 00:37:19,367
Speaker 2: of those things, even like the TV or the You

681
00:37:19,407 --> 00:37:21,647
Speaker 2: might get the opportunity to go into a TV spot

682
00:37:21,727 --> 00:37:23,727
Speaker 2: and it's not paid and it's at seven o'clock in

683
00:37:23,727 --> 00:37:26,407
Speaker 2: the morning and it's going to take work, but I

684
00:37:26,567 --> 00:37:28,927
Speaker 2: said yes because it was something I wanted to get

685
00:37:28,967 --> 00:37:32,687
Speaker 2: good at. And I think when you say no to things,

686
00:37:32,727 --> 00:37:34,567
Speaker 2: that's a cost, and as long as you know what

687
00:37:34,607 --> 00:37:39,767
Speaker 2: that cost is, like own the no. But I definitely

688
00:37:40,047 --> 00:37:44,007
Speaker 2: feel like being open to a lot of those things

689
00:37:44,287 --> 00:37:48,607
Speaker 2: has helped take me in a very strange direction. And

690
00:37:48,647 --> 00:37:51,767
Speaker 2: we talk at work about a ladder and a lattice,

691
00:37:51,887 --> 00:37:54,567
Speaker 2: like a ladder is just up. And I was on

692
00:37:54,607 --> 00:37:56,607
Speaker 2: that trajectory for a little bit in terms of, oh,

693
00:37:56,647 --> 00:37:58,487
Speaker 2: will you be the head of content or the editor

694
00:37:58,607 --> 00:38:02,127
Speaker 2: or whatever, and I realized I didn't want to do that,

695
00:38:02,847 --> 00:38:06,047
Speaker 2: and so I sidestepped and went, Okay, rather than that,

696
00:38:06,167 --> 00:38:08,767
Speaker 2: I'm going to go and do some TV writing and

697
00:38:08,927 --> 00:38:11,527
Speaker 2: I'm going to write a book and I'm going to

698
00:38:11,647 --> 00:38:15,287
Speaker 2: do some TV spots or whatever. And that made me

699
00:38:15,327 --> 00:38:18,647
Speaker 2: feel satisfied. Rather than being the big boss, I have

700
00:38:18,807 --> 00:38:21,687
Speaker 2: no desire to be anyone's boss. Yeah.

701
00:38:21,727 --> 00:38:26,167
Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, So this is one of my favorite realizations

702
00:38:26,607 --> 00:38:29,847
Speaker 1: in the kind of matrix of seizing anyone's yea, and

703
00:38:29,887 --> 00:38:33,367
Speaker 1: that is that we spend so much of our journey

704
00:38:33,407 --> 00:38:37,287
Speaker 1: thinking that bigger and further upwards is better, just necessarily,

705
00:38:37,447 --> 00:38:41,487
Speaker 1: like without any other considerations. And same with the hierarchy

706
00:38:41,527 --> 00:38:44,527
Speaker 1: of jobs. We think that quitting corporate and working for

707
00:38:44,607 --> 00:38:48,247
Speaker 1: yourself is better, Like that's because it's romanticized, and or

708
00:38:48,247 --> 00:38:51,727
Speaker 1: being a CEO is better, And like, what I think

709
00:38:51,847 --> 00:38:54,287
Speaker 1: people don't realize is that we are not all built

710
00:38:54,287 --> 00:38:56,967
Speaker 1: the same. The fabric of what lights you up but

711
00:38:57,047 --> 00:39:00,247
Speaker 1: also makes you desperately unhappy, or what is your fear

712
00:39:00,327 --> 00:39:03,287
Speaker 1: versus what is your passion? It looks different for everyone else.

713
00:39:03,287 --> 00:39:05,447
Speaker 1: So we can't all be CEOs and enjoy it. We

714
00:39:05,487 --> 00:39:08,447
Speaker 1: can't all be business owners as enjoy it. And it's

715
00:39:08,527 --> 00:39:11,927
Speaker 1: actually normal to think I don't want to be my

716
00:39:12,007 --> 00:39:14,647
Speaker 1: boss or I don't like it's the most empowering thing. Ever,

717
00:39:14,727 --> 00:39:17,847
Speaker 1: maybe for some people is to say I just don't

718
00:39:17,887 --> 00:39:20,007
Speaker 1: need to progress. I'm happy here, and like, I don't

719
00:39:20,007 --> 00:39:22,887
Speaker 1: think we allow people to have that realization.

720
00:39:23,167 --> 00:39:26,647
Speaker 2: No, I was reading maybe it's Atomic Habits, It's some

721
00:39:27,167 --> 00:39:29,127
Speaker 2: book that I was reading a little while ago that

722
00:39:29,207 --> 00:39:32,967
Speaker 2: said the first thing you should choose, rather than like

723
00:39:33,007 --> 00:39:34,367
Speaker 2: how much money do I want to make or what

724
00:39:34,447 --> 00:39:35,967
Speaker 2: job do I want to do? Or do I want

725
00:39:35,967 --> 00:39:38,607
Speaker 2: the promotion, is like what do you want your day

726
00:39:38,647 --> 00:39:40,727
Speaker 2: to look like? And then what do you want your

727
00:39:40,727 --> 00:39:44,647
Speaker 2: week to look like? And then work backwards from there,

728
00:39:44,767 --> 00:39:48,247
Speaker 2: Because I do not want my day to look like meetings.

729
00:39:48,407 --> 00:39:51,967
Speaker 2: I don't want my day to look like I'm really

730
00:39:52,047 --> 00:39:54,247
Speaker 2: bad at any sort of confrontation, Like if I was

731
00:39:54,287 --> 00:39:57,087
Speaker 2: managing someone and there was an issue with performance, I

732
00:39:57,167 --> 00:40:00,647
Speaker 2: just can't. It's just not worth how much anxiety it

733
00:40:00,647 --> 00:40:03,607
Speaker 2: gives me to give that feedback. I don't want to

734
00:40:03,927 --> 00:40:08,927
Speaker 2: be up at six and working late like that's not me.

735
00:40:09,767 --> 00:40:11,887
Speaker 2: And that's been actually more important since I've had a

736
00:40:11,927 --> 00:40:15,447
Speaker 2: baby to go What exactly do you want your days

737
00:40:15,447 --> 00:40:21,207
Speaker 2: to look like? When do you feel most connected to Luna?

738
00:40:21,367 --> 00:40:24,687
Speaker 2: Like there's a threshold at which you lean into work

739
00:40:24,727 --> 00:40:26,607
Speaker 2: so much that you feel disconnected and you're just a

740
00:40:26,727 --> 00:40:32,527
Speaker 2: nightmare for everyone around you. And you know the money

741
00:40:32,527 --> 00:40:34,367
Speaker 2: and the promotion and the career goals can all fit

742
00:40:34,447 --> 00:40:37,967
Speaker 2: around it, But if your day is hell, then no

743
00:40:38,047 --> 00:40:42,127
Speaker 2: matter what goals you hit your unhappy. So that's kind

744
00:40:42,127 --> 00:40:45,127
Speaker 2: of the granular what I've found going back to has

745
00:40:45,247 --> 00:40:46,807
Speaker 2: really helped me since having a baby.

746
00:40:47,287 --> 00:40:49,607
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. I often describe it as like

747
00:40:50,047 --> 00:40:52,767
Speaker 1: we all spend our brain, like our thinking time and

748
00:40:52,807 --> 00:40:56,367
Speaker 1: goal setting time in the macro like macro my title

749
00:40:56,407 --> 00:40:59,807
Speaker 1: to be or what are my macro goals? And unfortunately,

750
00:40:59,967 --> 00:41:02,247
Speaker 1: if you leave out the micro of what does that

751
00:41:02,327 --> 00:41:06,527
Speaker 1: translate to day to day? That's how people find achieving

752
00:41:06,527 --> 00:41:09,487
Speaker 1: their goal sometimes doesn't feel the way that they thought

753
00:41:09,487 --> 00:41:11,447
Speaker 1: it would because they didn't consider the micro. So I'm

754
00:41:11,447 --> 00:41:14,447
Speaker 1: always like, think about both levels before you decide anything

755
00:41:14,447 --> 00:41:15,127
Speaker 1: in your life.

756
00:41:15,567 --> 00:41:17,367
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I totally agree.

757
00:41:17,527 --> 00:41:20,607
Speaker 1: When we had the match of business, the pressure to

758
00:41:20,647 --> 00:41:23,327
Speaker 1: get into supermarkets was so high because it was like, well,

759
00:41:23,327 --> 00:41:27,007
Speaker 1: instantly you become a multimillion dollar business, and why would

760
00:41:27,007 --> 00:41:30,647
Speaker 1: you not want to you know, ten times your revenue overnight.

761
00:41:31,087 --> 00:41:33,767
Speaker 1: And of course, for Ages, we invested so much money

762
00:41:33,807 --> 00:41:36,127
Speaker 1: in that process, thinking that was the logical next step,

763
00:41:36,407 --> 00:41:41,487
Speaker 1: and then I realized I left corporate to not do that,

764
00:41:42,087 --> 00:41:44,967
Speaker 1: and this is corporatizing the thing that I created. So

765
00:41:45,007 --> 00:41:46,647
Speaker 1: I could leave the corporate world and I don't want

766
00:41:46,687 --> 00:41:48,687
Speaker 1: to be in a hy best in a factory every

767
00:41:48,767 --> 00:41:52,047
Speaker 1: day like it. But the ego of like realizing it's

768
00:41:52,087 --> 00:41:54,567
Speaker 1: okay to not try for that next big thing is

769
00:41:55,247 --> 00:41:56,927
Speaker 1: I think, really really complex.

770
00:41:57,367 --> 00:42:01,407
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you've got to create time in your schedule

771
00:42:02,287 --> 00:42:05,767
Speaker 2: to enjoy the big moments like I often, you know,

772
00:42:05,847 --> 00:42:10,807
Speaker 2: whether it's live shows or submit a book or book publicity.

773
00:42:10,847 --> 00:42:14,007
Speaker 2: It's like that stuff of like reaping the rewards for

774
00:42:14,087 --> 00:42:18,607
Speaker 2: hard work. If that is all done between other hard

775
00:42:18,607 --> 00:42:23,487
Speaker 2: work and you're tired and burnt out and grumpy, then

776
00:42:23,567 --> 00:42:26,047
Speaker 2: none of that is fun. Like and I've had that

777
00:42:26,167 --> 00:42:29,927
Speaker 2: experience of like being in this situation and looking around

778
00:42:29,967 --> 00:42:32,767
Speaker 2: and going, this is a career. I remember going to

779
00:42:32,807 --> 00:42:35,927
Speaker 2: this writer's festival, total career goal who I was on

780
00:42:35,967 --> 00:42:38,447
Speaker 2: a panel with, who I got to spend time with,

781
00:42:38,927 --> 00:42:40,687
Speaker 2: And it was traveling, and I was in this great

782
00:42:40,727 --> 00:42:45,047
Speaker 2: hotel and I resented every minute of it because I

783
00:42:45,087 --> 00:42:47,847
Speaker 2: wanted to be at home, because I was tired, because

784
00:42:47,887 --> 00:42:50,567
Speaker 2: I had stuff I knew I needed to do between everything.

785
00:42:51,167 --> 00:42:55,727
Speaker 2: And in that way, it's like, what's the point if

786
00:42:55,727 --> 00:42:58,647
Speaker 2: you don't get to have fun at those sorts of moments?

787
00:42:58,727 --> 00:43:01,327
Speaker 2: And maybe that means you write a book every five

788
00:43:01,447 --> 00:43:03,727
Speaker 2: years rather than a book every year, Like who says

789
00:43:03,727 --> 00:43:05,847
Speaker 2: you have to write a book every year? Who says

790
00:43:05,887 --> 00:43:09,167
Speaker 2: that you've got to say yes to this, you know,

791
00:43:10,167 --> 00:43:15,167
Speaker 2: incredible opportunity that is going to tire you out so

792
00:43:15,327 --> 00:43:21,207
Speaker 2: much that your marriage suffers, Like no one, So I, yeah,

793
00:43:21,447 --> 00:43:26,047
Speaker 2: have certainly that's my goal when I get those incredible moments,

794
00:43:26,167 --> 00:43:27,647
Speaker 2: to actually be able to feel them.

795
00:43:27,927 --> 00:43:31,087
Speaker 1: I love that reminder because I think, Yeah, we think

796
00:43:31,087 --> 00:43:35,727
Speaker 1: of everything monetarily and don't consider that that quote of

797
00:43:35,767 --> 00:43:37,727
Speaker 1: like if it costs you your peace, it's too expensive,

798
00:43:37,767 --> 00:43:39,647
Speaker 1: so it doesn't really matter what you make from it

799
00:43:39,687 --> 00:43:42,007
Speaker 1: if you're unhappy, Like what's the point. And You've got

800
00:43:42,007 --> 00:43:45,127
Speaker 1: a beautiful chapter in my dear friend Genevieve Day's book

801
00:43:45,207 --> 00:43:47,607
Speaker 1: on the Juggle, and there was something you said that

802
00:43:47,767 --> 00:43:50,247
Speaker 1: I highlighted and scribbled down because I thought it was

803
00:43:50,287 --> 00:43:54,087
Speaker 1: just so valid that you had become ungrateful for objectively

804
00:43:54,207 --> 00:43:57,487
Speaker 1: joyful moments. And I think that's when you know you've

805
00:43:57,487 --> 00:43:59,847
Speaker 1: pushed it too far when you can't even enjoy the

806
00:43:59,847 --> 00:44:01,927
Speaker 1: good bits, so like why have any bits at all?

807
00:44:02,607 --> 00:44:05,287
Speaker 2: Yes? And then you become I've got a real thing

808
00:44:05,327 --> 00:44:08,887
Speaker 2: about being in moments and thinking I should feel one

809
00:44:08,887 --> 00:44:11,487
Speaker 2: way not feeling that way, which is this. I heard

810
00:44:11,527 --> 00:44:15,527
Speaker 2: this term recently about emotional perfectionism. I think that's what

811
00:44:15,607 --> 00:44:18,367
Speaker 2: I had that I think my emotion should be perfect

812
00:44:18,367 --> 00:44:21,207
Speaker 2: every moment, and they're not. And that's been a real

813
00:44:22,127 --> 00:44:25,647
Speaker 2: like relief actually, because you look at like, for example,

814
00:44:25,687 --> 00:44:28,607
Speaker 2: I went and saw Dolly Alderton recently at the Opera House,

815
00:44:28,607 --> 00:44:30,367
Speaker 2: and you look at her in the opera House, and

816
00:44:30,407 --> 00:44:32,927
Speaker 2: she sold out the opera House and she looks gorgeous

817
00:44:32,967 --> 00:44:35,887
Speaker 2: and what a career. And most people in media would

818
00:44:35,887 --> 00:44:37,887
Speaker 2: look at her and go, that is what I want.

819
00:44:38,447 --> 00:44:42,807
Speaker 2: But my own life has taught me you have no

820
00:44:42,887 --> 00:44:47,367
Speaker 2: idea how she feels you have. It can look so glamorous,

821
00:44:47,887 --> 00:44:50,567
Speaker 2: but she might have had the worst day and been

822
00:44:50,687 --> 00:44:53,887
Speaker 2: slogging over a script that she submitted that got rejected,

823
00:44:54,647 --> 00:44:57,127
Speaker 2: Like you just have no idea, And then someone in

824
00:44:57,127 --> 00:45:01,207
Speaker 2: the audience who's just come here and she's been looking

825
00:45:01,247 --> 00:45:03,407
Speaker 2: forward to it all week is probably feeling a lot

826
00:45:03,447 --> 00:45:06,487
Speaker 2: happier than Dolly on stage, like and who's the winner?

827
00:45:06,567 --> 00:45:10,367
Speaker 2: Are Like, happiness can't be felt by the other people

828
00:45:10,367 --> 00:45:13,287
Speaker 2: around you who are envious. If you think that other

829
00:45:13,287 --> 00:45:15,647
Speaker 2: people's envy is going to build you up, it's not

830
00:45:15,687 --> 00:45:19,847
Speaker 2: because you can't touch that. So it's I think realizing

831
00:45:19,887 --> 00:45:24,527
Speaker 2: as well as cliche as it is the tiny, tiny

832
00:45:25,407 --> 00:45:30,327
Speaker 2: joys that bring you just as much happiness, which is like,

833
00:45:30,607 --> 00:45:33,927
Speaker 2: you know, today I'm mostly at home with Luna, and

834
00:45:34,007 --> 00:45:35,527
Speaker 2: it'll be the best day of my week. No matter

835
00:45:35,527 --> 00:45:37,087
Speaker 2: what else happens, it'll be the best day of my week.

836
00:45:37,127 --> 00:45:40,767
Speaker 2: And yeah, that's certainly been a surprise.

837
00:45:40,887 --> 00:45:44,247
Speaker 1: I think, Oh, I love that, and I can't wait

838
00:45:44,287 --> 00:45:47,887
Speaker 1: to get to more on Luna and oh my goodness,

839
00:45:47,887 --> 00:45:50,287
Speaker 1: you're sixty two and a half hour labor like you

840
00:45:50,407 --> 00:45:52,287
Speaker 1: will talk about proving to yourself that you can do

841
00:45:52,367 --> 00:45:55,527
Speaker 1: hard things in just a moment, but just wrapping up

842
00:45:55,567 --> 00:45:59,567
Speaker 1: the sort of career progression, and particularly the lattice, I

843
00:45:59,567 --> 00:46:02,087
Speaker 1: love that analogy. I think that's such a good visual

844
00:46:02,207 --> 00:46:06,367
Speaker 1: reminder that it doesn't have to just go upwards in

845
00:46:06,447 --> 00:46:10,127
Speaker 1: the sort of complicated matrix, particularly is women that we have,

846
00:46:10,207 --> 00:46:13,407
Speaker 1: but just for anyone really of putting yourself forward for

847
00:46:13,487 --> 00:46:18,007
Speaker 1: new positions, not believing that you can do them, imposter syndrome,

848
00:46:18,167 --> 00:46:22,527
Speaker 1: self doubt, burnout, everything that comes with going, you know,

849
00:46:22,607 --> 00:46:25,927
Speaker 1: getting promotions and putting yourself forward for those things. What

850
00:46:26,127 --> 00:46:28,327
Speaker 1: has been your You mentioned that you're not always thinking

851
00:46:28,527 --> 00:46:32,007
Speaker 1: you know too far ahead? What has been your model

852
00:46:32,407 --> 00:46:34,927
Speaker 1: for those moves? For each of those jumps, has it

853
00:46:34,967 --> 00:46:37,767
Speaker 1: been like a mentor that you turn to, Like, how

854
00:46:37,767 --> 00:46:39,687
Speaker 1: do you even know that it's time for a new role?

855
00:46:39,727 --> 00:46:41,527
Speaker 1: How did you decide I want to be an author?

856
00:46:41,967 --> 00:46:44,927
Speaker 1: How did you kind of know when the cusp of

857
00:46:44,927 --> 00:46:46,727
Speaker 1: a new chapter was happening?

858
00:46:47,207 --> 00:46:51,367
Speaker 2: I and this is not necessarily a great model, but

859
00:46:51,487 --> 00:47:01,967
Speaker 2: it's true. Is I have used jealousy. So anytime I

860
00:47:02,007 --> 00:47:06,287
Speaker 2: feel jealousy, which I am quite a jealous envious person

861
00:47:06,287 --> 00:47:09,007
Speaker 2: at something I don't like about myself, But every time

862
00:47:09,007 --> 00:47:12,807
Speaker 2: I it, every time I feel it, I go, what

863
00:47:13,007 --> 00:47:15,567
Speaker 2: is it that you want? And sometimes if I look

864
00:47:15,567 --> 00:47:18,687
Speaker 2: at it really closely and I go, you actually don't

865
00:47:18,687 --> 00:47:21,607
Speaker 2: want that, the jealousy of vaporates, which is great. So

866
00:47:21,647 --> 00:47:25,007
Speaker 2: it's like sometimes I say something and I'm like, oh,

867
00:47:25,087 --> 00:47:26,887
Speaker 2: you said no to that, you actually don't want to

868
00:47:26,927 --> 00:47:29,727
Speaker 2: do that, And then you go, ah, oh cool, I'm

869
00:47:29,727 --> 00:47:32,647
Speaker 2: actually not jealous. And then other times I go, Okay,

870
00:47:32,687 --> 00:47:35,487
Speaker 2: this person has written a book. Oh, this person wrote

871
00:47:35,487 --> 00:47:37,927
Speaker 2: a fiction book. I've always want to write a fiction book.

872
00:47:37,967 --> 00:47:41,367
Speaker 2: And it's like, oh, great. That was clarifying. You want

873
00:47:41,367 --> 00:47:45,927
Speaker 2: to write a fiction book, well, then do it instead

874
00:47:45,927 --> 00:47:48,487
Speaker 2: of sitting there stewing on how jealous you feel about

875
00:47:48,487 --> 00:47:50,647
Speaker 2: this person or thinking it has anything to do with them,

876
00:47:50,687 --> 00:47:56,327
Speaker 2: because it doesn't. It's just your own navigation system of

877
00:47:57,287 --> 00:48:02,887
Speaker 2: what's next. And then like I found that with television

878
00:48:02,927 --> 00:48:05,927
Speaker 2: as well, and I think it all builds on each other,

879
00:48:05,967 --> 00:48:07,487
Speaker 2: Like I wouldn't have been able to write fiction if

880
00:48:07,527 --> 00:48:10,087
Speaker 2: I hadn't written nonfiction. That was my putting my toe

881
00:48:10,087 --> 00:48:13,327
Speaker 2: in and going can we write a book and playing

882
00:48:13,367 --> 00:48:16,247
Speaker 2: with narrative, and then going, I think I've skilled up

883
00:48:16,287 --> 00:48:20,207
Speaker 2: to go, Okay, I can write fiction, which is dialogue.

884
00:48:20,447 --> 00:48:22,607
Speaker 2: You learn how to write dialogue and then you go

885
00:48:22,927 --> 00:48:25,207
Speaker 2: all right, I actually do think I can write for screen,

886
00:48:25,567 --> 00:48:27,447
Speaker 2: but there's no way I could have started with screen.

887
00:48:27,807 --> 00:48:31,367
Speaker 2: And in saying that, it's like when Claire and I

888
00:48:31,407 --> 00:48:35,327
Speaker 2: wrote our first episode of something, we did not know

889
00:48:35,607 --> 00:48:39,207
Speaker 2: the program, so it's like everyone was sending us, We're like, oh,

890
00:48:39,207 --> 00:48:42,327
Speaker 2: can we just see you like what a script looks like?

891
00:48:42,447 --> 00:48:44,807
Speaker 2: Because I was like, what what do you do? Do

892
00:48:44,847 --> 00:48:49,167
Speaker 2: you write? Is the name in capitals? Like I've never

893
00:48:49,247 --> 00:48:52,687
Speaker 2: I literally have on my bookshelf all the succession scripts

894
00:48:52,967 --> 00:48:55,567
Speaker 2: and I've got the script for Fleabag and I've got

895
00:48:55,607 --> 00:48:57,407
Speaker 2: the script for normal people. Because I was like, I

896
00:48:57,487 --> 00:49:01,927
Speaker 2: need to self teap, like I haven't done a course

897
00:49:01,967 --> 00:49:03,607
Speaker 2: in this. I don't know all these people went to

898
00:49:04,247 --> 00:49:06,767
Speaker 2: UNI to go and learn to script write, Like I

899
00:49:06,887 --> 00:49:11,287
Speaker 2: need to learn in one day how to write a script.

900
00:49:12,367 --> 00:49:15,847
Speaker 2: And maybe that comes down to like studying, Like I

901
00:49:15,927 --> 00:49:21,207
Speaker 2: quite like that intense getting across something quickly, and a

902
00:49:21,287 --> 00:49:25,807
Speaker 2: belief that if you work hard at something you'll be

903
00:49:25,847 --> 00:49:27,447
Speaker 2: able to do it. Like I have a very strong

904
00:49:27,487 --> 00:49:30,527
Speaker 2: belief in prep that's the only way that I get

905
00:49:30,567 --> 00:49:33,687
Speaker 2: over nerves. Is like if I were to go on

906
00:49:33,847 --> 00:49:36,727
Speaker 2: stage in an hour, I would probably be really nervous

907
00:49:36,767 --> 00:49:38,407
Speaker 2: because like I don't know what I'm going to say.

908
00:49:38,767 --> 00:49:41,647
Speaker 2: But if I know what I'm going to say, know

909
00:49:41,767 --> 00:49:45,367
Speaker 2: how it's going to go, and I trust my ability

910
00:49:45,447 --> 00:49:49,567
Speaker 2: to prepare, I don't trust myself. So that I think

911
00:49:50,087 --> 00:49:53,447
Speaker 2: has been a good mantra for me is that like

912
00:49:53,767 --> 00:49:58,367
Speaker 2: if you work hard enough, the imposter syndrome or whatever

913
00:49:58,407 --> 00:50:02,927
Speaker 2: you want to call it will dissipate because you know

914
00:50:02,967 --> 00:50:03,967
Speaker 2: you've put in the hours.

915
00:50:04,607 --> 00:50:08,007
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like giving yourself data points to sort of

916
00:50:08,047 --> 00:50:13,887
Speaker 1: rely on yeah exactly, you know, self doubt in Korea

917
00:50:14,207 --> 00:50:18,087
Speaker 1: and upskilling it sort of seems like the biggest thing

918
00:50:18,167 --> 00:50:21,767
Speaker 1: in your entire life until you become a mum and

919
00:50:21,887 --> 00:50:24,767
Speaker 1: then all the problems you thought you have become very

920
00:50:24,807 --> 00:50:28,607
Speaker 1: simple and they've become really one dimensional compared to sort

921
00:50:28,607 --> 00:50:30,807
Speaker 1: of this whole new thing that you're facing where you're like, oh,

922
00:50:30,927 --> 00:50:34,767
Speaker 1: I thought I knew what the word hard meant until now,

923
00:50:35,207 --> 00:50:36,807
Speaker 1: and I don't even know. I mean, I had a

924
00:50:36,847 --> 00:50:38,767
Speaker 1: C section, so it was like ten minutes and then

925
00:50:38,807 --> 00:50:40,807
Speaker 1: it was just kind of done. But sixty two and

926
00:50:40,807 --> 00:50:43,327
Speaker 1: a half hours, Like, tell me you didn't have moments

927
00:50:43,327 --> 00:50:47,607
Speaker 1: of self doubt like I can't do this? What happened?

928
00:50:47,887 --> 00:50:52,927
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, that was the whole pregnancy, and I

929
00:50:53,007 --> 00:50:58,727
Speaker 2: got perinatal depression and anxiety like I was, I have

930
00:50:59,007 --> 00:51:04,127
Speaker 2: a total phobia of pain of being stuck, which is

931
00:51:04,367 --> 00:51:07,367
Speaker 2: kind of what labor is, like you are experience that

932
00:51:07,407 --> 00:51:13,367
Speaker 2: you can't endbsolutely no belief that I could do that,

933
00:51:13,407 --> 00:51:15,967
Speaker 2: And it didn't matter how many women said they'd done it,

934
00:51:15,967 --> 00:51:18,087
Speaker 2: because I was like, yeah, yeah, but you're stronger than me.

935
00:51:18,327 --> 00:51:20,967
Speaker 2: You don't get it. I'm weak you're strong. I have

936
00:51:21,127 --> 00:51:23,847
Speaker 2: no doubt that you did that. I saw my psychologist

937
00:51:23,927 --> 00:51:27,607
Speaker 2: during it and he said he kind of got to

938
00:51:27,647 --> 00:51:30,447
Speaker 2: the bottom of it and was like, you are scared

939
00:51:30,607 --> 00:51:32,847
Speaker 2: that you're going to die. And I was like, I am.

940
00:51:33,047 --> 00:51:35,287
Speaker 2: I am scared that I'm going to die when I

941
00:51:35,327 --> 00:51:38,447
Speaker 2: give birth, Like I just don't have any faithor in

942
00:51:38,847 --> 00:51:43,327
Speaker 2: my body's ability to do it. And so I actually

943
00:51:43,327 --> 00:51:45,927
Speaker 2: went in initially and said I need to get a

944
00:51:45,967 --> 00:51:48,847
Speaker 2: C section. I'd had a really traumatic experience with pain

945
00:51:49,447 --> 00:51:51,607
Speaker 2: where I had been stuck in pain for a long

946
00:51:51,647 --> 00:51:55,447
Speaker 2: period prior just a year prior, and I was like,

947
00:51:55,567 --> 00:51:58,647
Speaker 2: if I get stuck in pain, I will panic and

948
00:51:58,687 --> 00:52:01,927
Speaker 2: I really don't want to panic, and I need to

949
00:52:02,007 --> 00:52:05,247
Speaker 2: control what I can. And the obstetrician said, I hear you,

950
00:52:05,327 --> 00:52:07,567
Speaker 2: and if that's the choice you want to make, absolutely,

951
00:52:08,327 --> 00:52:11,487
Speaker 2: but think about it, like and he said to me,

952
00:52:12,127 --> 00:52:14,367
Speaker 2: it's one day of your life, which ironically it wasn't.

953
00:52:17,247 --> 00:52:19,967
Speaker 2: I think, let's just keep an eye on this baby

954
00:52:20,087 --> 00:52:24,927
Speaker 2: and positioning and measurements, and I think you'll be surprised.

955
00:52:25,687 --> 00:52:29,087
Speaker 2: And so I did lots of research. I did the

956
00:52:29,127 --> 00:52:31,687
Speaker 2: Bourbon classes, I read all the books, and I went

957
00:52:32,647 --> 00:52:36,687
Speaker 2: I think this is important for me to try like that,

958
00:52:36,807 --> 00:52:40,167
Speaker 2: it could be quite a big thing if I'm able

959
00:52:40,207 --> 00:52:44,167
Speaker 2: to do it. And so me and my my twin

960
00:52:44,207 --> 00:52:49,207
Speaker 2: sister both had very very long labors and they just

961
00:52:49,327 --> 00:52:53,687
Speaker 2: weren't progressing and kept getting sent home from hospital and

962
00:52:53,727 --> 00:52:55,687
Speaker 2: all of that. And then I went in. I got

963
00:52:55,727 --> 00:52:58,767
Speaker 2: an epidural. They say to wait till you're like, I

964
00:52:58,767 --> 00:53:00,967
Speaker 2: don't know five centimeters. I think I was two, And

965
00:53:01,007 --> 00:53:03,247
Speaker 2: I was like, stick it in. I just I have

966
00:53:03,407 --> 00:53:07,527
Speaker 2: got let's just I have no pain threshold. Just do it.

967
00:53:08,167 --> 00:53:12,367
Speaker 2: And then the apt utual giving birth is the best

968
00:53:12,407 --> 00:53:16,967
Speaker 2: experience I've ever had, Like I absolutely loved it, and

969
00:53:17,127 --> 00:53:20,607
Speaker 2: I have walked around the world since. And I've been

970
00:53:20,647 --> 00:53:23,327
Speaker 2: really careful about talking about this because you do not

971
00:53:23,487 --> 00:53:26,327
Speaker 2: earn a birth. My twin sister, with the same body

972
00:53:26,407 --> 00:53:29,887
Speaker 2: had a traumatic birth, Like we could not be more identical.

973
00:53:30,127 --> 00:53:34,407
Speaker 2: We prepared exactly the same. I didn't earn anything. But

974
00:53:34,527 --> 00:53:39,807
Speaker 2: even with her traumatic birth, we've both said, you can

975
00:53:39,847 --> 00:53:43,007
Speaker 2: walk around the world a little bit straighter because you're like,

976
00:53:43,447 --> 00:53:46,207
Speaker 2: I cannot believe what my body did, whether that is

977
00:53:47,047 --> 00:53:51,767
Speaker 2: vaginal c section, however that baby comes out, you're like,

978
00:53:52,367 --> 00:53:55,887
Speaker 2: holy shit, Like I didn't know I could grow a

979
00:53:56,207 --> 00:53:59,327
Speaker 2: baby and even like look after it and you feel

980
00:53:59,327 --> 00:54:01,487
Speaker 2: like a bailout there every minute of every day. But

981
00:54:01,607 --> 00:54:04,967
Speaker 2: like that to me has given me more self esteem

982
00:54:05,127 --> 00:54:08,327
Speaker 2: than anything I've ever done. Like I just can't be

983
00:54:08,487 --> 00:54:11,487
Speaker 2: if that baby, who I think is the most perfect

984
00:54:11,487 --> 00:54:13,847
Speaker 2: thing in the world, has anything to do with me,

985
00:54:14,487 --> 00:54:17,847
Speaker 2: then like I am great.

986
00:54:19,127 --> 00:54:24,567
Speaker 1: I am the actual shit, Like the actual shit. I

987
00:54:24,607 --> 00:54:28,487
Speaker 1: think that's just one thing that's amazing about listening to

988
00:54:28,527 --> 00:54:30,967
Speaker 1: you is that in every regard, whether it's like your

989
00:54:31,047 --> 00:54:35,207
Speaker 1: childhood or your career or even giving birth, it's your

990
00:54:35,327 --> 00:54:39,247
Speaker 1: incredible self awareness. And I think the disconnect for a

991
00:54:39,247 --> 00:54:42,327
Speaker 1: lot of people in fulfillment or happiness or whatever you

992
00:54:42,367 --> 00:54:46,207
Speaker 1: want to call it with their life is that they

993
00:54:46,287 --> 00:54:49,367
Speaker 1: don't just really get in touch with like what am

994
00:54:49,367 --> 00:54:51,807
Speaker 1: I good at? What are my incentives? What motivates me?

995
00:54:51,847 --> 00:54:54,127
Speaker 1: What doesn't motivate me? Like you know that you to

996
00:54:54,167 --> 00:54:57,727
Speaker 1: even be able to articulate that you operate from jealousy,

997
00:54:57,767 --> 00:55:00,407
Speaker 1: Like that's a motivator, Like it's you know, you don't

998
00:55:00,447 --> 00:55:02,007
Speaker 1: want to be a jealous person, but the fact that

999
00:55:02,007 --> 00:55:04,967
Speaker 1: you can use that to your advantage, Like all you

1000
00:55:05,047 --> 00:55:07,127
Speaker 1: need to know is the fabric that makes up your

1001
00:55:07,247 --> 00:55:10,807
Speaker 1: exact composition of like filment, and then just build your

1002
00:55:10,807 --> 00:55:13,247
Speaker 1: life around it. And I think the problem is that

1003
00:55:13,327 --> 00:55:17,047
Speaker 1: people look at other people's fabric and then make decisions

1004
00:55:17,047 --> 00:55:19,647
Speaker 1: based on that, and it's like, well, of course horse

1005
00:55:19,727 --> 00:55:21,847
Speaker 1: riding wasn't going to make you happy because you hate animals,

1006
00:55:21,887 --> 00:55:25,087
Speaker 1: Like that doesn't make sense, you know exactly, And it's

1007
00:55:25,127 --> 00:55:29,287
Speaker 1: about that acceptance, Like it's I think being really close

1008
00:55:29,327 --> 00:55:32,007
Speaker 1: to your siblings helps because even if you don't have

1009
00:55:32,047 --> 00:55:35,167
Speaker 1: self awareness, they will give it to you. Like no

1010
00:55:35,207 --> 00:55:39,607
Speaker 1: one will tell me in how many different ways I'm flawed,

1011
00:55:39,807 --> 00:55:41,927
Speaker 1: like my family will in a very loving way.

1012
00:55:42,447 --> 00:55:45,807
Speaker 2: But I think you're absolutely right. It's like we're very

1013
00:55:45,847 --> 00:55:52,527
Speaker 2: quick to see everyone else's issues and neuroses and diagnose

1014
00:55:52,687 --> 00:55:54,647
Speaker 2: and narcissism and all of those things that we throw

1015
00:55:54,687 --> 00:55:59,927
Speaker 2: around without seeing that we have exactly the same level

1016
00:56:00,367 --> 00:56:02,687
Speaker 2: of shit that we're dealing with. And I think self

1017
00:56:02,727 --> 00:56:08,127
Speaker 2: awareness gets you a long way. And you know that

1018
00:56:08,247 --> 00:56:14,047
Speaker 2: self reflection because I've seen like going and seeing a

1019
00:56:14,087 --> 00:56:17,007
Speaker 2: psychologist and that's because I've had years of knowing that

1020
00:56:17,087 --> 00:56:20,487
Speaker 2: I'm anxious or having episodes of depression and being able

1021
00:56:20,527 --> 00:56:25,487
Speaker 2: to work out why that happens and where I get stuck.

1022
00:56:25,647 --> 00:56:28,127
Speaker 2: I can't always see that in the moment, but I

1023
00:56:28,327 --> 00:56:33,047
Speaker 2: certainly see the value in untangling it after, and sometimes

1024
00:56:33,087 --> 00:56:35,127
Speaker 2: if it's writing it down. I've found writing really good

1025
00:56:35,127 --> 00:56:38,967
Speaker 2: for that in terms of processing what's going on. And

1026
00:56:39,007 --> 00:56:40,967
Speaker 2: even like after giving birth, it was like I didn't

1027
00:56:40,967 --> 00:56:44,367
Speaker 2: write anything to publish, but like I might just write

1028
00:56:44,367 --> 00:56:47,727
Speaker 2: in a journal to just understand the complexity of all

1029
00:56:47,727 --> 00:56:48,527
Speaker 2: the feelings.

1030
00:56:49,047 --> 00:56:52,247
Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, And now would you say, I mean like

1031
00:56:52,327 --> 00:56:54,367
Speaker 1: we need a whole nother episode to talk about the

1032
00:56:54,447 --> 00:56:59,047
Speaker 1: juggle and the way that your goal setting, time management, prioritization,

1033
00:56:59,767 --> 00:57:03,287
Speaker 1: like self care, all of those things just completely changes

1034
00:57:03,287 --> 00:57:05,567
Speaker 1: in such a radical way once you have a baby.

1035
00:57:06,447 --> 00:57:10,527
Speaker 1: Now that Luna's sort of sixteen months, did you say, yeah, yeah,

1036
00:57:11,247 --> 00:57:14,167
Speaker 1: how are you feeling in terms of are you full

1037
00:57:14,247 --> 00:57:16,447
Speaker 1: pelt back at work? Do you feel like is there

1038
00:57:16,487 --> 00:57:20,767
Speaker 1: still the mumfog? Are you like how you feeling with

1039
00:57:21,207 --> 00:57:21,687
Speaker 1: the juggle?

1040
00:57:23,647 --> 00:57:26,367
Speaker 2: Every like every week since I've had Lunar, I would

1041
00:57:26,407 --> 00:57:29,887
Speaker 2: have a different answer still now, like I think it changes.

1042
00:57:30,407 --> 00:57:36,647
Speaker 2: Right now, I'm feeling very good because I went away

1043
00:57:36,647 --> 00:57:39,927
Speaker 2: with my family last weekend. I have It's funny because

1044
00:57:39,927 --> 00:57:42,007
Speaker 2: a lot of what I do is public facing, right,

1045
00:57:42,047 --> 00:57:45,287
Speaker 2: So it's like if I'm on a podcast, then my

1046
00:57:45,407 --> 00:57:47,607
Speaker 2: friends and family will probably see a video of it

1047
00:57:47,647 --> 00:57:50,007
Speaker 2: on Instagram. What you can't see is how many of

1048
00:57:50,007 --> 00:57:52,407
Speaker 2: those podcasts I did in one day. So it might

1049
00:57:52,407 --> 00:57:54,887
Speaker 2: look like I'm working every day, but I'm absolutely not

1050
00:57:54,967 --> 00:57:58,367
Speaker 2: working every day. It's like I try and have at

1051
00:57:58,447 --> 00:58:02,567
Speaker 2: least probably one to two days during the week that

1052
00:58:02,647 --> 00:58:06,727
Speaker 2: can be lunar days and during her naps. I will,

1053
00:58:07,207 --> 00:58:09,247
Speaker 2: you know, whether it's a bit of script writing or

1054
00:58:09,367 --> 00:58:11,927
Speaker 2: or other projects I'm working on, I will try and

1055
00:58:11,927 --> 00:58:16,687
Speaker 2: get that done. But my vision of success has totally

1056
00:58:16,807 --> 00:58:21,447
Speaker 2: changed and the cost of what projects like, I think

1057
00:58:21,487 --> 00:58:25,047
Speaker 2: I was very like, very ambitious, and I still am

1058
00:58:25,167 --> 00:58:28,167
Speaker 2: very ambitious. And I felt it coming back actually because

1059
00:58:28,207 --> 00:58:32,007
Speaker 2: I think that for a while the ambition did dull,

1060
00:58:32,087 --> 00:58:34,287
Speaker 2: not in a bad way, but I was just very

1061
00:58:35,127 --> 00:58:38,847
Speaker 2: focused on as much time as possible with Luna. I'm

1062
00:58:38,847 --> 00:58:42,447
Speaker 2: feeling it come back because I simply have more time,

1063
00:58:42,607 --> 00:58:47,327
Speaker 2: and like even the difference between my baby and Clare's

1064
00:58:47,847 --> 00:58:49,567
Speaker 2: is that she's at an age now where like she'll

1065
00:58:49,567 --> 00:58:51,447
Speaker 2: sit there and read her book and like she kind

1066
00:58:51,447 --> 00:58:54,687
Speaker 2: of wants a bit of independence. And that might mean

1067
00:58:54,807 --> 00:58:57,087
Speaker 2: that I can read a book, or that I can

1068
00:58:57,927 --> 00:59:00,447
Speaker 2: go and do like I know that she doesn't. There's

1069
00:59:00,527 --> 00:59:04,447
Speaker 2: just I'm feeling more and more independence, I think. So

1070
00:59:05,247 --> 00:59:08,247
Speaker 2: at the moment, yeah, I'd probably do like I reckon

1071
00:59:09,607 --> 00:59:11,847
Speaker 2: three three and a half full days a week of

1072
00:59:11,967 --> 00:59:17,767
Speaker 2: work and then around naps try and work however I can.

1073
00:59:18,447 --> 00:59:22,567
Speaker 2: But the big thing has been family. I have enormous

1074
00:59:22,767 --> 00:59:28,167
Speaker 2: my mother in law, my mum, Like, we have a

1075
00:59:28,287 --> 00:59:31,047
Speaker 2: nanny who comes a day a week right now, my

1076
00:59:31,367 --> 00:59:34,647
Speaker 2: father in law and Luca's brother is downstairs with Luna.

1077
00:59:34,807 --> 00:59:39,727
Speaker 2: Like that has been the greatest, the greatest blessing. There

1078
00:59:39,767 --> 00:59:43,767
Speaker 2: is no privilege when you have kids like. Family like

1079
00:59:43,807 --> 00:59:47,887
Speaker 2: that has just made this experience totally different than it

1080
00:59:47,967 --> 00:59:50,807
Speaker 2: might be if I lived regionally or overseas and had

1081
00:59:50,847 --> 00:59:51,407
Speaker 2: no support.

1082
00:59:52,047 --> 00:59:54,087
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I'm the same. My family live within

1083
00:59:54,167 --> 00:59:57,167
Speaker 1: like four ks or three k's and over every day,

1084
00:59:57,167 --> 01:00:00,767
Speaker 1: and I just think on those days where I'm not

1085
01:00:00,807 --> 01:00:02,767
Speaker 1: feeling great and I don't feel like I'm getting the

1086
01:00:02,807 --> 01:00:06,967
Speaker 1: balance right, I'm just like and I have all that. Imagine. Yeah,

1087
01:00:07,167 --> 01:00:09,367
Speaker 1: without thatsh how I would.

1088
01:00:10,207 --> 01:00:13,887
Speaker 2: Even on the days when you don't need the help,

1089
01:00:13,967 --> 01:00:16,247
Speaker 2: or you don't call in the help, you do know

1090
01:00:16,287 --> 01:00:20,807
Speaker 2: it's there, and that's very different. Like imagine not sleeping

1091
01:00:21,047 --> 01:00:23,847
Speaker 2: waking up and going there is no one I can call.

1092
01:00:24,087 --> 01:00:27,767
Speaker 2: Knowing that there are people you can call is totally

1093
01:00:27,887 --> 01:00:33,367
Speaker 2: totally different. Like I just think, yeah, the experience for people,

1094
01:00:33,767 --> 01:00:35,967
Speaker 2: I feel like I've always got to preface everything with

1095
01:00:36,007 --> 01:00:39,607
Speaker 2: that because I just think i'd have it'd be completely

1096
01:00:39,647 --> 01:00:40,967
Speaker 2: different if I didn't have that sort.

1097
01:00:41,167 --> 01:00:44,127
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm absolutely in the same boat, and it is.

1098
01:00:44,887 --> 01:00:48,647
Speaker 1: It does allow a big part of your brain the

1099
01:00:48,647 --> 01:00:51,567
Speaker 1: freedom to just enjoy the experience a lot more because

1100
01:00:51,607 --> 01:00:56,447
Speaker 1: you're not completely without any break or without any time

1101
01:00:56,487 --> 01:00:58,847
Speaker 1: to like miss them, you know, it's like absence makes

1102
01:00:58,847 --> 01:01:01,407
Speaker 1: the heart grow fonder with everything. But I think also

1103
01:01:01,447 --> 01:01:04,607
Speaker 1: in motherhood it's nice to yeah, I mean, once you

1104
01:01:04,647 --> 01:01:06,847
Speaker 1: first get through that first kind of bit, to be

1105
01:01:06,927 --> 01:01:09,007
Speaker 1: able to start to miss them and then be so

1106
01:01:09,047 --> 01:01:11,767
Speaker 1: excited when you get to get to see them again.

1107
01:01:12,927 --> 01:01:15,087
Speaker 2: Exactly and to know that, you know, I get up

1108
01:01:15,127 --> 01:01:17,127
Speaker 2: and have this great I get to do breakfast and

1109
01:01:17,167 --> 01:01:19,127
Speaker 2: we hang out in the morning and we have this

1110
01:01:19,247 --> 01:01:22,247
Speaker 2: great time before my mom comes and seeing her face

1111
01:01:22,327 --> 01:01:24,967
Speaker 2: light up when she sees my mom or Luca's mom

1112
01:01:25,047 --> 01:01:27,127
Speaker 2: is just the greatest joy. And then I get to

1113
01:01:27,447 --> 01:01:33,247
Speaker 2: run in the door, like after work, and I've never

1114
01:01:33,327 --> 01:01:36,527
Speaker 2: run home from work before, Like I just am so

1115
01:01:36,807 --> 01:01:40,047
Speaker 2: keen to get back, and I feel like that helps

1116
01:01:40,087 --> 01:01:44,287
Speaker 2: me to appreciate it, Like it's just so so much fun.

1117
01:01:44,327 --> 01:01:47,967
Speaker 2: And to see other people what they see in your baby.

1118
01:01:48,087 --> 01:01:51,247
Speaker 2: To have that shared and to just all of you

1119
01:01:51,327 --> 01:01:56,647
Speaker 2: marvel at this baby together is like, yeah, it's how

1120
01:01:56,727 --> 01:02:01,247
Speaker 2: our ancestors did it. And I just the loneliness that's

1121
01:02:01,247 --> 01:02:04,807
Speaker 2: some and I think you feel loneliness regardless, but yeah,

1122
01:02:04,847 --> 01:02:07,527
Speaker 2: it's definitely different when you've got a real support network.

1123
01:02:08,527 --> 01:02:10,527
Speaker 1: Well, Jesse, I know today is a lunar day and

1124
01:02:10,527 --> 01:02:12,847
Speaker 1: I don't want to take any more of your precious time,

1125
01:02:13,447 --> 01:02:16,007
Speaker 1: but I feel like I could. I've there's so many

1126
01:02:16,007 --> 01:02:18,007
Speaker 1: things I want to talk. We didn't even touch on strife.

1127
01:02:18,087 --> 01:02:20,167
Speaker 1: We hardly even got into your books. But I'll include

1128
01:02:20,167 --> 01:02:23,007
Speaker 1: links to everything in the show notes. And of course

1129
01:02:23,047 --> 01:02:24,687
Speaker 1: I don't think I need to link one mayor out

1130
01:02:24,727 --> 01:02:26,127
Speaker 1: loud or any of the shows because I feel like

1131
01:02:26,127 --> 01:02:28,567
Speaker 1: everyone will already know what they are, but just in case,

1132
01:02:28,607 --> 01:02:30,567
Speaker 1: I will make sure to include all that. But Thank

1133
01:02:30,607 --> 01:02:32,807
Speaker 1: you so much for your time. It's been such a joy.

1134
01:02:33,247 --> 01:02:37,167
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me, and I've really enjoyed listening

1135
01:02:37,207 --> 01:02:39,967
Speaker 2: to your podcast and seeing all your work and the

1136
01:02:39,967 --> 01:02:42,607
Speaker 2: community that you've built. So thank you for everything you've done.

1137
01:02:42,767 --> 01:02:44,807
Speaker 1: Like I said at the start of this conversation, this

1138
01:02:44,967 --> 01:02:46,767
Speaker 1: was actually the first time I'd ever sat down to

1139
01:02:46,847 --> 01:02:49,727
Speaker 1: chat with Jesse, and yet somehow I feel like we

1140
01:02:49,807 --> 01:02:51,847
Speaker 1: had been friends for a million years. I could tell

1141
01:02:51,847 --> 01:02:55,527
Speaker 1: her pretty much anything, my deebest, darkest fears, all my vulnerabilities.

1142
01:02:55,847 --> 01:02:59,527
Speaker 1: She's just one of those warm, intelligent, articulate people that

1143
01:02:59,567 --> 01:03:01,607
Speaker 1: you just can't hear enough of. I could have chatted

1144
01:03:01,607 --> 01:03:04,287
Speaker 1: to her for hours and probably will have her back

1145
01:03:04,327 --> 01:03:06,927
Speaker 1: on the show at some point. Definitely going to go

1146
01:03:07,287 --> 01:03:10,607
Speaker 1: and reread her two books. If you don't follow her already,

1147
01:03:10,647 --> 01:03:13,247
Speaker 1: you absolutely should. I suspect most of you probably already do.

1148
01:03:13,367 --> 01:03:15,207
Speaker 1: But in case you don't, I will pop the link

1149
01:03:15,287 --> 01:03:17,847
Speaker 1: to her page in the show notes, as well as

1150
01:03:18,207 --> 01:03:20,367
Speaker 1: the link to the shows she hosts on Mamma Maya

1151
01:03:20,527 --> 01:03:24,087
Speaker 1: and her two beautiful books. In the meantime, I hope

1152
01:03:24,127 --> 01:03:27,247
Speaker 1: you guys are having a wonderful week. The silly season

1153
01:03:27,407 --> 01:03:31,007
Speaker 1: isn't too silly, too quickly. I feel like it's starting

1154
01:03:31,047 --> 01:03:33,367
Speaker 1: earlier and earlier every year. It is absolutely wild. But

1155
01:03:33,407 --> 01:03:37,287
Speaker 1: I hope you're all looking after yourselves and seizing ya.

1156
01:03:55,047 --> 01:03:57,647
Speaker 2: How loud as. We hope you enjoyed this episode of

1157
01:03:57,887 --> 01:04:00,007
Speaker 2: hearing Jesse wang.

1158
01:03:59,727 --> 01:04:04,487
Speaker 1: On, hang on, hang on about things. I'm the wonderful

1159
01:04:04,567 --> 01:04:10,047
Speaker 1: season like this, I know from you. I think Sarah

1160
01:04:10,087 --> 01:04:12,727
Speaker 1: Davidson is really interesting.

1161
01:04:12,847 --> 01:04:14,967
Speaker 2: I like her vibes, I know, And there are great

1162
01:04:15,007 --> 01:04:17,367
Speaker 2: conversations happening in that podcast feed all the time, So

1163
01:04:17,447 --> 01:04:19,407
Speaker 2: go over there if you would like to hear more.

1164
01:04:19,687 --> 01:04:21,647
Speaker 2: If you haven't had a chance to listen to Friday's

1165
01:04:21,687 --> 01:04:25,487
Speaker 2: episode of Mummer out Loud, we discussed boredom. There is

1166
01:04:25,527 --> 01:04:27,407
Speaker 2: a link in the show notes. We'll be back in

1167
01:04:27,447 --> 01:04:28,807
Speaker 2: your ears tomorrow. Bite