Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Speaker 2: Mama Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking
Speaker 2: about on Monday, the twenty sixth of August, and I'm
Speaker 2: Holly Wainwright, I'm.
Speaker 3: Mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2: On the show today, how a seventeen year old boy
Speaker 2: and some down shifting alpha blokes started a conversation about
Speaker 2: good men on the world stage. Also, as of today,
Speaker 2: you are legally allowed to ignore your boss after hours,
Speaker 2: or are you? That sound you can hear is me
Speaker 2: leaving all my group chats with Mia and she's going
Speaker 2: to steal herself for that. For that conversation.
Speaker 1: Hollywayen Wrights left the chat and the trick to solving
Speaker 1: all your clothes problems comes down apparently to a three
Speaker 1: word system.
Speaker 2: But first, Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 3: In case you missed it, Ben Affleck has been pictured
Speaker 3: with another woman amid his separation from Jennifer Lopez, and
Speaker 3: that woman is Kick Kennedy, the daughter of Robert F. Kennedy.
Speaker 3: Just a note on the Kennedy's there's a lot of them.
Speaker 3: Can someone I tried to google? But Kick Kennedy was
Speaker 3: a sister and a niece and a nephew and blah
Speaker 3: blah blah. So is my Kick. Yes, the niece of
Speaker 3: the JFK.
Speaker 1: One, Robert Kennedy Junior. His father was Robert Kennedy, who
Speaker 1: was the brother.
Speaker 3: Of I've missed a generation here. See there's a lot.
Speaker 1: He was assassinated as well as JFK being assassinated.
Speaker 2: But Kick's dad, as Maya says, is the one who
Speaker 2: was running for president until five minutes.
Speaker 1: It was a very big weekend for the that part
Speaker 1: of the Kennedy family.
Speaker 2: The backup, back up, Ben has moved on so quickly.
Speaker 3: This is correct, it's this scoreless gossip. Yes it is.
Speaker 3: Kick Kennedy is thirty six years old. She's been pictured
Speaker 3: with fifty two year old Ben at the Polo Lounge
Speaker 3: at the Beverly Hills Hotel, as well as at other
Speaker 3: hotspots hotspots. Holly discuss it's probably not.
Speaker 1: True, but I'm here for it's it's very random because
Speaker 1: I read it.
Speaker 2: Well, that's true, And often the more random the story,
Speaker 2: the more real it is. And again, out loud as
Speaker 2: we know this is scurrilous gossip, but we also know
Speaker 2: you're invested in the benefit divorce, so we want to
Speaker 2: keep you up to date because you wouldn't want to
Speaker 2: miss anything.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, wouldn't want to.
Speaker 1: Miss anthy you mean us.
Speaker 2: But also it maybe explains the timing of the divorce
Speaker 2: filing because, as we discussed last week, they've been separated
Speaker 2: for a while. They've been working out whether or not
Speaker 2: to push the button, pull the trigger, whatever you want
Speaker 2: to call it. And maybe the fact that Ben is
Speaker 2: hanging around with someone new it seems like a push
Speaker 2: the trigger.
Speaker 3: No, incorrect, You've got the timing wrong. What's happened is
Speaker 3: that Jlo has filed for divorce, which we all said
Speaker 3: was a bit of a power move. He kind of
Speaker 3: played her cards when she filed for the separation. Now
Speaker 3: it was Ben's move, and this is Ben's move. It
Speaker 3: was ball in his court and he went, I've got kick,
Speaker 3: who is even though I don't fully understand the family
Speaker 3: tree an American institution, I'm hanging out with thirty six
Speaker 3: year old.
Speaker 2: Kick Another American institution, Jennifer Lopezi, the American institution. So
Speaker 2: you think divorce filing. Wednesday, Ben got out his little
Speaker 2: black book and went who could I go on a
Speaker 2: high profile date with? To the poet last tonight?
Speaker 3: And the reason I want to talk about this is
Speaker 3: because of how relatable it is because I once broke
Speaker 3: up with someone. Well I think he broke up with me,
Speaker 3: but anyway, that doesn't matter. And then I went on
Speaker 3: Instagram and he posted a picture of him with some
Speaker 3: woman Where did she come from? At the end of
Speaker 3: a run which was very passag because I can't run,
Speaker 3: so it was like a very I went for a
Speaker 3: run with this beautiful who can woman who's got rosy
Speaker 3: cheeks from exerting herself. And when I saw that, I
Speaker 3: went I know how Ja Loo feels because I have
Speaker 3: also had to have a look at the new woman.
Speaker 1: Had they gone for rhinal had they just had.
Speaker 3: Sex, Maybe they'd had sex, but they made it look
Speaker 3: like they were doing very something, very wholesome on a Saturday,
Speaker 3: and it made me feel bad. And I think that
Speaker 3: j Loo is annoyed today. Help Gosh and Gwen.
Speaker 4: You are my empire world and I love you.
Speaker 2: Last week in America was all about Kamala Harris in
Speaker 2: the minds of delusional small el liberals like me everywhere.
Speaker 2: We have a new queen and she wears a navy
Speaker 2: pantsuit with a pussy bow shirt.
Speaker 3: It's a pussy bow shirt back.
Speaker 2: Yes, I know this isn't important louds for her big
Speaker 2: speech on Friday.
Speaker 1: It's important.
Speaker 2: She wore a very like, understated but very classy. I
Speaker 2: wouldn't you agree me, Chloe suit, which is fancy A
Speaker 2: class designer pantsuit fitted pussy bow shirt. Excellent. Anyway, It
Speaker 2: was the DNC, the Democratic National Convention, as we discussed
Speaker 2: briefly last week, and it dominated did the global news
Speaker 2: cycle for a week, as it was designed to do.
Speaker 2: There were quite a few storylines. There were impassioned talks
Speaker 2: about abortion from survivors of sexual abuse, about gun violence
Speaker 2: from survivors of shootings. There were anti war protesters outside.
Speaker 2: There was the much admired speeches from Michelle Obama, Oprah Winfrey,
Speaker 2: Hillary Clinton, and of course Kamala Harris herself. But I
Speaker 2: want to talk about blokes, not about all those amazing women,
Speaker 2: because of course I do, because whether or not you
Speaker 2: give U stuff about American politics, and I know quite
Speaker 2: a lot of you listening do not there is something
Speaker 2: very interesting bubbling along here about masculinity and celebrations of
Speaker 2: a different kind of masculinity that was on big display
Speaker 2: last week, and it's in very stark opposition to Trump's
Speaker 2: very basic man strong, big, strong man, face down, scary
Speaker 2: of the strong men act.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: Obviously, there's the subtext here that every powerful man who
Speaker 2: took the stage over those four days was in support
Speaker 2: of a powerful woman. But also those men showing a human,
Speaker 2: emotional and family side seemed to be very high on
Speaker 2: the priority scale of what they were there to do.
Speaker 2: There was Kamala's husband, Doug em Hoff, who was beautifully
Speaker 2: introduced by a very emotional video by his son. Now
Speaker 2: Doug is a hyper successful lawyer entertainment lawyer in Los
Speaker 2: Angeles who quit his regular job to support Kamala as
Speaker 2: VP and now to get her elected. And her talk
Speaker 2: he gave, and the pride and the strength he shows
Speaker 2: at being the man behind the woman is a vibe
Speaker 2: he will be, obviously if she is elected, the first
Speaker 2: first gentleman and the last time a woman ran. Obviously,
Speaker 2: her first gentleman had been the president. So this is
Speaker 2: an entirely new vibe that was.
Speaker 1: Currently the second gentleman, because she's the vice president.
Speaker 2: And that's the job. Apparently it is a job, not
Speaker 2: a paid one. And then there was of course Tim Waltz,
Speaker 2: who's Harris's nice guy running mate, and his excellent mind
Speaker 2: your own goddamn business speech, which is what he's very
Speaker 2: good at doing. Is like where I'm from in the Midwest,
Speaker 2: we stay out of each other's bedrooms. Like he's really
Speaker 2: good at that stuff. But his speech was almost overshadowed
Speaker 2: by the attendants of his young son Gus. Now Gus
Speaker 2: was in the stands watching his dad speak, along with
Speaker 2: his mum, Gwen and his sister Hope. Gus Waltz, according
Speaker 2: to his parents, has a non verbal learning disorder in
Speaker 2: addition to an anxiety disorder and ADHD. In this case,
Speaker 2: a non verbal disorder is not the same as non speaking.
Speaker 2: It's a disorder that impacts the way that kids absorb
Speaker 2: and utilize information. But there are lots of interventions you
Speaker 2: can have and it doesn't mean that Gus can't talk
Speaker 2: and Gus drives and all of those things. Tim and
Speaker 2: Gwen have spoken about it several times, and they definitely
Speaker 2: refer to him as neurodivergent and his very enthusiastic response
Speaker 2: to his dad led some people to mock him. Imagine
Speaker 2: being that awful, But anyway.
Speaker 1: Are you serious, because all I've seen is love for him.
Speaker 1: He became quite iconic quite quickly because when I saw it,
Speaker 1: I saw this young man getting very emotional tears in
Speaker 1: his eyes, getting up and saying, that's my dad, that's
Speaker 1: my dad, and this is awful. But I thought at
Speaker 1: the time, Oh no, that kid's going to cop it
Speaker 1: at school and he's just been caught up in the moment.
Speaker 1: That's before I learned that he was neurodivergent and had
Speaker 1: some challenges in his life, and then it made more
Speaker 1: sense to me. But have some people been horrible to him?
Speaker 2: So I'm going to play you a tiny bit of
Speaker 2: a TikTok for an example. So there's a famous conservative
Speaker 2: commentator called Ann Coulter. She has written book about Donald
Speaker 2: Trump and all the rest of it, and she immediately
Speaker 2: shared a shot of Gus Waltz along with the line
Speaker 2: talk about weird, which was obviously in response to the
Speaker 2: fact that Tim Waltz has coined the term weird for
Speaker 2: the religious conservatives on the Republican side. Anyway, here's a
Speaker 2: little TikTok by somebody responding to that.
Speaker 1: Y'all.
Speaker 5: I'm recording on the very last day of the Democratic
Speaker 5: National Convention here in Chicago, Illinois, and I feel like
Speaker 5: the entire week I've been very demure, very mindful, very cutesy.
Speaker 5: But ever since I saw Ian Coulter say this about
Speaker 5: Tim Walls's son who was disabled, I'm gonna say, fuck
Speaker 5: that shit, it's all out of the window.
Speaker 2: And then she went on to drag hard culture into
Speaker 2: the coach and say, never mind, we go Hi, We're
Speaker 2: dragging everybody down into hell with us now. So it
Speaker 2: pissed a lot of people off, but equally, as you say,
Speaker 2: Mia Gos kind of became iconic, and Tim Waltz drew
Speaker 2: an enormous amount of praise, which is also weird when
Speaker 2: you think about it, for actively loving his family, which
Speaker 2: kind of shows you how low the bar is here.
Speaker 1: Well, compare and contrast it with the other model of
Speaker 1: masculinity and family that we're seeing, which is the big
Speaker 1: difference between the Republican National Convention and the Democratic National Convention.
Speaker 1: It's so clear, like when you see the Trump family
Speaker 1: on stage, like Milania has got a contract. She won't
Speaker 1: even look at him, will barely touch his hand, like
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of love in that family. Donald
Speaker 1: Trump never speaks about his kids in any way except
Speaker 1: to say his daughter's got good tits and his youngest
Speaker 1: son's really tall.
Speaker 3: Are you maligning what he said. I don't think he
Speaker 3: said that she had good tits. I think he said
Speaker 3: he would not mind sleeping with her. Oh sorry, I
Speaker 3: have also misrepresented Trump.
Speaker 1: So I think it's interesting these contrasting because Tim Walls,
Speaker 1: he didn't expect to be vice president, right, He's not
Speaker 1: like I've been waiting for this. He got the call
Speaker 1: from the bench pretty unexpectedly two weeks after he came
Speaker 1: out and had this amazing cut through by the weird comment,
Speaker 1: And so he's been visibly moved by the big crowds,
Speaker 1: by the reception, by the people chanting coach, coach, coach.
Speaker 1: We've seen I think a degree of emotional intelligence, not
Speaker 1: just from Gus Walls, who I think has been emblematic
Speaker 1: of something, but this idea that men can not just
Speaker 1: get emotional, but also that they can respect women, that
Speaker 1: they can fight for the rights of women, and that
Speaker 1: the be able to have control over their own bodies,
Speaker 1: and that idea of contrasted with Donald Trump, which is
Speaker 1: this cruel, what I would call toxic masculinity, which is
Speaker 1: about mocking people, being cruel to people, being very sort
Speaker 1: of thrusting and aggressive, and then JD Vance, which is
Speaker 1: about oppressing women and being really malevolent and wanting to
Speaker 1: wind the clock back for women. That type of masculinity.
Speaker 3: I've heard Tim Waltz's masculinity described as tonic masculinity as
Speaker 3: sort of the opposite to toxic. And what's so refreshing
Speaker 3: about it is that it is still a vision of masculinity.
Speaker 3: It's not effeminate. And this is what I think the
Speaker 3: Republicans have set it up, that it's like we are
Speaker 3: losing what it is to be a man. Tim Wiltz
Speaker 3: is a man.
Speaker 1: He's still who introduced Tim Wells at the convention, a
Speaker 1: whole bunch of football players who he'd coached. And what's
Speaker 1: so interesting about his time as a football coach is
Speaker 1: that the kids at the school where he was working,
Speaker 1: some of the queer kids, had been bullied and harassed.
Speaker 1: He enlisted all the young men on his football team
Speaker 1: to protect them and to stand between bullies and these guys,
Speaker 1: and I mean that is a new model.
Speaker 3: It's sort of the definition of inspiring. And the other
Speaker 3: thing that's refreshing is that all of us have Tim
Speaker 3: Wlson's in our life, and it's been really difficult to
Speaker 3: describe this healthy masculinity that exists. And maybe Tim walsall
Speaker 3: fix your car and dougs and yeah, exactly right. They
Speaker 3: do see themselves as fathers and husbands and all of
Speaker 3: those things, but it doesn't rely on the oppression of women.
Speaker 1: They're protective without being controlling. Controlling.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they seem to like all the people on all
Speaker 2: the very long list of impressive men who stood up
Speaker 2: and spoke at that that none of them were threatened
Speaker 2: by the powerful females in their lives, or at least
Speaker 2: it seemed that way. But Jesse, I want to ask you,
Speaker 2: is the fact that everybody's so excited about the fact
Speaker 2: that Tim Waltz appears to it like his family. It's
Speaker 2: like a little bit table steakes.
Speaker 3: Most people like their families.
Speaker 2: And also hasn't family values always belong to the right right,
Speaker 2: So what we're seeing is it being reclaimed by the left.
Speaker 2: But also it's kind of hilarious that people might be
Speaker 2: surprised by that.
Speaker 3: The irony I think is that the Republican convention talked
Speaker 3: a lot about families, but at the Democratic Convention, we
Speaker 3: saw a lot of families. And that's the difference. It's like,
Speaker 3: show don't Tell. In all the yelling about abortion and
Speaker 3: contraception and all of that that's been done, and the
Speaker 3: JD vance and the trump of it all, I keep thinking.
Speaker 3: I think in that same Republican image of masculinity is
Speaker 3: the elon Musks who have a thousand children that they
Speaker 3: don't spend any time with, and it's because they believe
Speaker 3: that the world needs more children or whatever. White children, yes, exactly,
Speaker 3: but with tim to actually see a family that loved
Speaker 3: each other and to see that express I think the
Speaker 3: neurodivergent element of this is really important. And everyone had
Speaker 3: someone in their lives who is neurodivergent. Everyone that is
Speaker 3: not represented in the mainstream with politics, with conventions, with elections,
Speaker 3: it is so contrived, it is so performative. So to
Speaker 3: see a the word authentic is overused, but there was
Speaker 3: nothing preempted about that response. It was so pure that
Speaker 3: that's why everyone leaned into it.
Speaker 2: You know what, I loved about it. I can't understand
Speaker 2: the attacks, Like I just don't understand having a mind
Speaker 2: that closed that you would not think that a Gus
Speaker 2: Waltz is not like a wonderful gift to have in
Speaker 2: your family. But also it would have been a big
Speaker 2: decision for Gwen and Tim to have Gos at that event,
Speaker 2: not that he has been in any way sheltered or
Speaker 2: like Tim Wells has spoken about Gus before, he's very
Speaker 2: proud of his family, He's relatively po but that is
Speaker 2: a level of attention that is hard for any of
Speaker 2: us to comprehend. And what I particularly liked about it
Speaker 2: is they would have known that Gus was going to
Speaker 2: react in an excited way in the way that he did.
Speaker 2: To an extent, no one was trying to like shush him,
Speaker 2: make him sit down, like be smaller, be quiet, be less,
Speaker 2: like Hope and Gwen were barely looking at him, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean. They were looking at Tim on
Speaker 2: the stage, support him for his big moment, like it
Speaker 2: was just a very natural family moment. But it would
Speaker 2: have taken some balls to do, because nothing happens on
Speaker 2: that kind of stage without the nth degree of stage management.
Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean, And it was really
Speaker 2: I just loved that that that was there.
Speaker 3: I agree, and that was one element they couldn't control,
Speaker 3: and to watch that none of them were trying to
Speaker 3: suggest that he sit down, and it would have just
Speaker 3: been in a sense of protection for him. But I
Speaker 3: also think that we're used to a narrative, even though
Speaker 3: we we think we've moved past it, that to have
Speaker 3: a child with any sort of disability or any sort
Speaker 3: of difference is a tragedy, is something that we're fed
Speaker 3: and that it makes your life harder, and that I
Speaker 3: don't know, the love is different, but and that it's
Speaker 3: something to be hidden, and that it's embarrassed. Yes, But
Speaker 3: for him, the sentence that tim Oltz said before his
Speaker 3: son said that's my dad is you are my entire
Speaker 3: world and I love you. About his family, there was
Speaker 3: no whiffs, there was no butts, there was no reference
Speaker 3: to the fact that his son was neurodivergent. That was
Speaker 3: a representation you don't see very often, just untridled.
Speaker 1: I see it in your family, you know. It reminded
Speaker 1: me so much of the way your family are, with
Speaker 1: your cousin Simon and your aunt Michelle. This sounds so obvious,
Speaker 1: but by treating people without kid gloves and just being
Speaker 1: around them publicly and not making a big deal, you
Speaker 1: give them such dignity to just be themselves. What you
Speaker 1: said whole is so true. They weren't trying to make
Speaker 1: him smaller. They weren't trying to make him conform. They
Speaker 1: weren't trying to make him be in a box of
Speaker 1: what you should be. And to me, this idea of
Speaker 1: freedom which the Democratic Party is trying to harness, the
Speaker 1: word freedom, it's a very beautiful thing and it's being
Speaker 1: shown in all these different ways. And back to family,
Speaker 1: I think that the other thing that was really notable
Speaker 1: is Kamala Harris is in a blended family. She has
Speaker 1: two step kids who are adults, and they were there.
Speaker 1: And the other person who just looked incredibly moved and happy,
Speaker 1: who I couldn't take my eyes off in her speech,
Speaker 1: she's her stepdaughter, Ella, who was in the glasses and
Speaker 1: was wearing that amazing ball gown. She's very cool and
Speaker 1: she was next to her dad, and they all came
Speaker 1: on the stage afterwards. And I don't know if you
Speaker 1: saw many of the images from the Republican Convention, but
Speaker 1: when you said at the beginning, hohole, I don't know
Speaker 1: why we're talking about what they're wearing. It is actually
Speaker 1: really important what politicians wear because they do send messages.
Speaker 1: Whether we like it or not. We live in a
Speaker 1: visual world. People do send messages with their clothes in
Speaker 1: the same way that royals do, right, particularly people who
Speaker 1: might not speak freely. And if you looked at the
Speaker 1: esthetics of the Republican Convention, it was all women who
Speaker 1: looked like I'm going to say fembots, a highly surgery,
Speaker 1: had this big hair, tight dresses, sky high heels, and
Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with that look. But when every woman
Speaker 1: on the stage looks the same like a Fox News
Speaker 1: female newsreader, that makes me feel nervous. That has power
Speaker 1: in saying, this is what we believe women should be
Speaker 1: and what women should look like, and this idea of
Speaker 1: our idea about women is that they are a threash.
Speaker 1: They need to be an ornament, and they need to
Speaker 1: be controlled by taking away their rights.
Speaker 3: The best commentary I've been hearing about the US election
Speaker 3: has been from Ezra Kleine. I recommend listening to Ezra
Speaker 3: Klein at the moment. He's just on fire. But he
Speaker 3: said that every election, if you look back, it's about
Speaker 3: one issue, and that this election is about gender. You
Speaker 3: look at abortion, and that's obvious on the agenda. But
Speaker 3: for him, he was like, no, no, no, this is about
Speaker 3: masculinity and different ways in which it's manifesting. So he
Speaker 3: was saying that you've got the Tim Waltz, and he
Speaker 3: actually dissected the differences in the masculinity between Trump and JD. Vance.
Speaker 4: In Donald Trump and in Tim Walls, you have two
Speaker 4: very different but very explicit archetypes visions of what it
Speaker 4: means to be a man. Trump's pitch is built on
Speaker 4: I would call it an almost cartoonish overperformance of masculinity,
Speaker 4: which is aimed at alienated young men. I mean, having
Speaker 4: Hulk Hogan and the head of the UFC on your
Speaker 4: night at the convention really puts a sharp point on that.
Speaker 4: But in Tim Walls, Democrats have found their own version
Speaker 4: of a male archetype. A football coach, a soldier, a
Speaker 4: guy who will fix your car, but also an ally,
Speaker 4: a man comfortable being in the role of supporting women,
Speaker 4: a man unthreatened by social change, a man even excited
Speaker 4: by it.
Speaker 3: Because they're both responses to this underground rejection of feminism
Speaker 3: that the Andrew tates that the younger generations are going
Speaker 3: feminism has threatened us.
Speaker 1: It's a real clap back to the or a pushback
Speaker 1: against the way Hillary Clinton ran and her idea of
Speaker 1: I'm with her glass ceiling. I agree. I loved what
Speaker 1: Ezra Klin said.
Speaker 2: I love it. But again, I'm just gonna throw it
Speaker 2: in there. Low bar man has to think woman should
Speaker 2: be allowed to have a job and seem to be
Speaker 2: interested in his children and know their names.
Speaker 1: But I love guys. But that's what's been so crazy
Speaker 1: about the last ten years, if for anyone who's been
Speaker 1: following American politics, and how can you not, because you've
Speaker 1: got a man who says I'm going to grab her
Speaker 1: by the pussy and he is elected.
Speaker 2: I agree, and I loved like Doug's speech made me
Speaker 2: so happy, And I love the confidence and joy that
Speaker 2: he carries with him in the role of being like
Speaker 2: second gentleman and possibly the first gentleman. Apparently he has
Speaker 2: like second gentleman on his mugs, like he fully embraces it,
Speaker 2: and apparently he's right there with Kamala like making the calls,
Speaker 2: getting it like They are clearly a very tight unit,
Speaker 2: and I love to see it. But I'm also always
Speaker 2: just a little bit like, gosh, we really don't expect
Speaker 2: much from the chaps, do we look?
Speaker 3: I agree, and looking at the Trump example, he had
Speaker 3: Hulk Hogan at the Republican convention, like, there's a representation,
Speaker 3: and you were talking about a caulter. But there was
Speaker 3: another tweet by a guy named Mike Crispy, who is
Speaker 3: like a reporter, TV host, maga person, and he said
Speaker 3: Tim Waltz's stupid crying son. Isn't the flex the left
Speaker 3: think it is? You raised your kid to be a puffy,
Speaker 3: beta male congrat. Does Baron Trump cry? Nope? Does he
Speaker 3: love his father? Of course? That's the types of values
Speaker 3: I want leading the country. What's telling about that is
Speaker 3: the use of the word beta, because I think that
Speaker 3: the Republicans have thought that the only model of masculinity
Speaker 3: is alpha, and the Democrats are saying the opposite to that.
Speaker 3: Isn't beta. It's just this diverse representation and the.
Speaker 2: World isn't that simple? Guys? And ohso Baron Trump probably
Speaker 2: barely those who his days. Does he cry every night
Speaker 2: himself to sleep?
Speaker 1: You are my Empire World and I love you. As
Speaker 1: of today, there are new rules for work and they
Speaker 1: affect anyone who has a boss or is a boss.
Speaker 1: From today, you will be legally able to clock off
Speaker 1: from work without having to be available after hours. It's
Speaker 1: called the right to disconnect law, and you may have
Speaker 1: seen people freaking out about it, bosses complaining that they
Speaker 1: can't send an email at five point fifteen PM, or
Speaker 1: employees complaining that one time their boss rang them while
Speaker 1: they were giving birth to ask if they'd mark the
Speaker 1: exams for their class. So what's going on, really? I
Speaker 1: think we can all agree that's a bit unreasonable, unless,
Speaker 1: of course the boss didn't know that she was giving
Speaker 1: birth at that time.
Speaker 3: You messaged me a lot during my labor, but in
Speaker 3: your defense, you were emotionally invested.
Speaker 1: I wanted to know what you thought of my fringe.
Speaker 1: From today, in businesses with more than fifteen employees, workers
Speaker 1: will have the right to refuse contact outside their working hours,
Speaker 1: including calls and emails, unless that refusal is unreasonable. Now.
Speaker 1: Brent Ferguson, who is the head of an employer group
Speaker 1: called AI Group, explained that these new laws won't bring
Speaker 1: an end to late night calls. He said, it's a
Speaker 1: new right for an employee to refuse that contact, to
Speaker 1: refuse to monitor their emails, or to refuse to take
Speaker 1: a telephone call from their employer if it's outside their
Speaker 1: working hours. So emails and calls, it's got to be reasonable,
Speaker 1: but you have got the right not to respond.
Speaker 3: Did you know that it also doesn't apply to you
Speaker 3: if you earn over one hundred and seventy five thousand
Speaker 3: dollars a year.
Speaker 2: I did.
Speaker 3: I found that in the fine Brint.
Speaker 1: What's going to happen though, is in August next year
Speaker 1: this will apply to all businesses, including small businesses where
Speaker 1: there's less than fifteen employees, unless the Coalition win the
Speaker 1: election in May, because Peter Dutton has said they will
Speaker 1: repeal this law. Why because he says it's very bad
Speaker 1: for employers. Now more than twenty countries have similar laws
Speaker 1: in place, and research has found that it improved well
Speaker 1: being and work satisfaction in any companies with these right
Speaker 1: to disconnect policies. Holly doesn't seem reasonable when I text
Speaker 1: you at six am to tell you that Jalo has
Speaker 1: filed for divorce and will you be blocking me from
Speaker 1: the grip chat.
Speaker 2: You've just horrified me by telling me there's an election
Speaker 2: in May. I'm not ready for that now. Anyway, back
Speaker 2: to your question, is it unreasonable, No, it's not unreasonable.
Speaker 2: I think these laws are great. I do. I think
Speaker 2: that it's a correction because basically what's happened over the
Speaker 2: past ten years is there's been a creep, right, there's
Speaker 2: been a creep into all kinds of workplaces where it's
Speaker 2: not essential or urgent that you answer the boss's message
Speaker 2: in that very moment that they send it. But they can,
Speaker 2: and very often you feel pressure to. And when I
Speaker 2: say you, I don't mean me, I mean people in
Speaker 2: the world. So it's kind of normal and expected now
Speaker 2: that if you're we'll sends you an email or a
Speaker 2: group taxst or whatever your mode of communication is that
Speaker 2: it's a sign of how invested in how much you
Speaker 2: like your job, whether or not you answer it at
Speaker 2: nine o'clock at night. But what this is saying is
Speaker 2: if your boss is messaging you at nine o'clock at night,
Speaker 2: you don't have to answer it, and you can't be
Speaker 2: punished for not answering it. But if it's urgent, they can't. Right,
Speaker 2: So we work in the media. It's very different. It's
Speaker 2: hard to switch it off. So the queen dies at.
Speaker 1: She didn't do it during business. She didn't do it
Speaker 1: during business, Now sign with Matthew Perry. The queen dies
Speaker 1: in the middle of the night. Is it reasonable that
Speaker 1: the owner of a business or your superior in a
Speaker 1: media business gets online and says, hey, hey, hey, who's up.
Speaker 1: We've got to do the queen or whatever.
Speaker 2: Yes it is. I don't think that this would apply
Speaker 2: that it wouldn't be reasonable. But should you have to
Speaker 2: answer your message from your boss who's just going at
Speaker 2: ten o'clock at night because they've caught up on their
Speaker 2: emails and they're going, hey, you know that thing we
Speaker 2: talked about for that thing next week? You know we
Speaker 2: should do blah blah blah. That's the message you're allowed
Speaker 2: to ignore, right.
Speaker 3: I agree with the Holy completely and I really like
Speaker 3: these laws. And it's probably worth noting that there are
Speaker 3: a lot of details that haven't been ironed out. They're
Speaker 3: actually going to wait to see what happens and what
Speaker 3: discussions take place in workplaces to get all the regulations perfected.
Speaker 1: Because the first thing you said, Holly, when we talked
Speaker 1: about this this morning was what's the definition of reasonable
Speaker 1: Because the employer and the employee might have very different definitions.
Speaker 1: This feels a little bit unhelpful. The Fair Work Commission
Speaker 1: is going to provide guidelines around this, but it's so
Speaker 1: far said it's not going to do so until people
Speaker 1: start complaining, and then they're going to use real world
Speaker 1: examples to help form those guidelines. So it's a bit
Speaker 1: wild West at the moment.
Speaker 3: The issue that I foresee is that if you are
Speaker 3: someone who's earning over one hundred and seventy five thousand dollars,
Speaker 3: it's not applied to you this right to disconnect thing.
Speaker 3: It's often that person who's reaching out to the twenty
Speaker 3: two year old who is on a way less salary.
Speaker 3: In that way, it takes someone very boundaried and someone
Speaker 3: with a bit willpower to ignore it. My dream is
Speaker 3: that I could walk into my house and have a
Speaker 3: box that I could lock, and my phone would go
Speaker 3: in there, and I would ignore it until I put
Speaker 3: my baby to sleep, so two or three hours that
Speaker 3: would be.
Speaker 2: I could do that.
Speaker 3: I could, I could.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I like no offense, Jesse, but
Speaker 2: you're not saving lives.
Speaker 3: I'm not on your own.
Speaker 2: Your role is no longer a news breaking covering role
Speaker 2: on the website. Yeah, it's unlikely there would be an
Speaker 2: out loud emergency that wouldn't need to be addressed in
Speaker 2: that moment between the hours of five and seven pm.
Speaker 1: But the problem is, and this is why laws like
Speaker 1: this are relevant, the place where we get our work
Speaker 1: communication is also the place where we get communication from
Speaker 1: our families, our friends about our social life, where we
Speaker 1: do a million things. So it's not like you can say, okay,
Speaker 1: the work parts of my phone I want to put
Speaker 1: in a locked box.
Speaker 3: Yes, I was listening to a podcast over the weekend
Speaker 3: that said, we even know this with food, right. You
Speaker 3: know how you unpack your grocery and you put your
Speaker 3: dessert food and your sweet food in a different place
Speaker 3: you put your bread because you know that when you
Speaker 3: go to get your breakfast food, you only want to
Speaker 3: see what's for breakfast, and like you know, you've got
Speaker 3: your bread plates and then you've got your milk places
Speaker 3: and blah blah blah, like you sought. That's how the
Speaker 3: human brain works. A fine doesn't allow you to sort,
Speaker 3: it's just bombarded.
Speaker 1: It all comes at you at once.
Speaker 3: But I want to play devil's advocate of it. Because
Speaker 3: there was an article that came out in the Sydney
Speaker 3: Morning Herald by Paul o'haleran. The headline was lazy workers
Speaker 3: are licking their lips as the right to disconnect laws
Speaker 3: loom and I hated that headline, but then he made
Speaker 3: some valid points. Let me explain, he's an employment lawyer,
Speaker 3: so he would know, and he said, lazy workers exist
Speaker 3: in every workplace. Can we agree? Of course, of course
Speaker 3: there are lots of lazy workers, and he had a
Speaker 3: bunch of quite funny examples. But he said the concern
Speaker 3: is that it will often new protections to the workers
Speaker 3: who were already idle. And he actually said that laziness
Speaker 3: is becoming in his line of work and increasing trend
Speaker 3: in the case that he's taken on, so things like
Speaker 3: forging time sheets for fabricated hours, fake medical certificates, and
Speaker 3: watching Netflix while claiming to be working from home, sleeping
Speaker 3: on the job. Do we think that if you're a
Speaker 3: lazy worker, you're jumping up and down today, you're pretty excited.
Speaker 1: Well, the thing is that it actually goes both ways.
Speaker 1: So in terms of what fair work can do, if
Speaker 1: you feel that your boss is making unreasonable requests, you
Speaker 1: can go to fair work and get them to adjudicate it.
Speaker 1: If you're a boss who you feel like your worker
Speaker 1: is not replying to reasonable requests, like say if I
Speaker 1: run a cafe and someone's called in sick, and so
Speaker 1: I message everybody to say can anyone work this shift? Again,
Speaker 1: this is not just about once, this is repeatedly. If
Speaker 1: you never respond, then I can say, well, I'm going
Speaker 1: to have to let you go or I'm going to
Speaker 1: go to fair work because you do need to reply. Sometimes.
Speaker 1: It's interesting to read some of the responses from out
Speaker 1: louders when we've asked about this in the past, and
Speaker 1: they say, if you're, for example, a shift worker, if
Speaker 1: you're a nurse or something, you're working casual work, your
Speaker 1: phone can be going twenty four to seven with can
Speaker 1: anyone do this shift? Can anyone do this shift? Can
Speaker 1: anyone do this shift?
Speaker 4: Now?
Speaker 1: Let's also give the benefit of the doubt to the
Speaker 1: person who needs to cover the shift, right And so
Speaker 1: what I've learned, and I learned this lesson early on.
Speaker 1: I've said it on the show before. When you're working
Speaker 1: in an industry that's twenty four seven, and it's really hard.
Speaker 1: And when you're the owner of the business, obviously you
Speaker 1: never get to rest. But then there's also potentially upside
Speaker 1: for you that there aren't for people who work for you.
Speaker 1: But I once got told I can't keep me of
Speaker 1: Friedman's hours anymore, and I can't be in the shower
Speaker 1: worried that she's messaged me. And I've never forgotten that.
Speaker 1: It was quite early in Mamma Maya. The work hours
Speaker 1: work crazy because the internet was crazy. So now I'm
Speaker 1: always very clear because I as a manager and a boss,
Speaker 1: I can't get all my work done in my hours,
Speaker 1: so I will often be working on weekends and after work.
Speaker 1: Now I always make it very clear you do not
Speaker 1: need to respond until it's work out. If it's really important,
Speaker 1: I will text you. But what I don't want to
Speaker 1: be told I can't do is even send the emails. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like if I give you permission to ignore them, if
Speaker 1: the fact that I've sent them is causing you stress
Speaker 1: and you can complain about it, that's tricky. Different if
Speaker 1: it's on your phone, like if I was texting people
Speaker 1: all ours, that would be different. But I only do
Speaker 1: that to you too.
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting because obviously I've managed teams too,
Speaker 2: and you do like the person who will respond to
Speaker 2: you out of ours? You do. If I'm the Queen's
Speaker 2: dead who's around, first person who jumps on and goes yep,
Speaker 2: no problem getting then I'm like, good, nice pattern head,
Speaker 2: like I do, you know. But the thing is is
Speaker 2: that that prejudice to responders to that kind of thing.
Speaker 2: I don't know if that means that you're back to
Speaker 2: the lazy thing. Is our definition of lazy, that you're
Speaker 2: not constantly prioritizing work. No, because I think, like the
Speaker 2: example that you were giving about somebody who is not
Speaker 2: really doing their job, that's another issue that doesn't really
Speaker 2: have anything to do with out of ours or not
Speaker 2: like they should be dealing with that anyway, not because
Speaker 2: of is. Whereas the thing is is that I think
Speaker 2: we've got a culture now, and I certainly have internalized
Speaker 2: this culture, and it's you know for many years. Is
Speaker 2: that if my phone beeps with work and I'm out
Speaker 2: for dinner with friends, if I'm putting the kids to bed,
Speaker 2: if I'm cooking dinner at work, is more important. That's
Speaker 2: the message that the twenty four to seven. Culture gives right,
Speaker 2: and this is trying to redress that a bit, to
Speaker 2: give you permission to go. And I think that you
Speaker 2: know gen Z much better at this yaound Jes boundaries
Speaker 2: is that they're and they.
Speaker 3: Ought to be, because gen Z on average are also
Speaker 3: being paid less because they're less experience.
Speaker 2: But then you'd argue from the other side, you'd go,
Speaker 2: but don't you want to be the one who had
Speaker 2: the advantage.
Speaker 3: The argument about jumping on and the Queen, for example,
Speaker 3: is that and these laws cover this, is that you've
Speaker 3: got to be compensated. So if I jump on and
Speaker 3: do the queen, which we do, and I then work
Speaker 3: two hours, I get two hours off on Monday, and
Speaker 3: that should be the way.
Speaker 2: And also what they're trying to do is say, compensate
Speaker 2: people if you want them to work outside of hours.
Speaker 2: And the idea about the wage cap as in that
Speaker 2: this doesn't apply to you if you earn really good
Speaker 2: money is that that's what you're getting paid good money
Speaker 2: for exactly. So I think that that's all very reasonable.
Speaker 2: But I agree with you Maya that you shouldn't not
Speaker 2: be able to send messages.
Speaker 1: I think what work means has just changed so much
Speaker 1: because I think that everybody's expectations around work, they've been
Speaker 1: so many changes. As you said at the start in
Speaker 1: what work looks like, I mean, now you can potentially
Speaker 1: work from home a lot of people, some people can't,
Speaker 1: the idea of working part time, the idea of working
Speaker 1: flexible hours, the idea of coworking, all of these things,
Speaker 1: and now the right to disconnect and boundaries technology. Work
Speaker 1: has changed so much. You used to go to work
Speaker 1: at a certain time and then you would finish work
Speaker 1: at a certain time and that would be the end.
Speaker 1: You couldn't take work playing with you.
Speaker 3: Really, the element of this that the out loud has
Speaker 3: told us, which I thought was something I hadn't considered,
Speaker 3: is that we're talking about availability, creep and bosses and employees. Actually,
Speaker 3: what a lot about louders are having issues with are
Speaker 3: clients parents. If you're a real estate agent, then the
Speaker 3: people who are contacting you out of hours and expecting
Speaker 3: an immediate response isn't your boss, it's your client or
Speaker 3: teachers are getting cents parents or students. There were out
Speaker 3: louders who said, hang on, my daughter is emailing her
Speaker 3: teacher at eight thirty pm. That teacher should be offline.
Speaker 3: That's true, which I think is it's actually a symptom
Speaker 3: of an entire culture that now expects you to respect a.
Speaker 1: Meeting I do. I mean it used to be that
Speaker 1: working hours were widely understood to be nine to five.
Speaker 1: Right now that everybody like we like flexibility. Some people
Speaker 1: want to work part time, some people want to work
Speaker 1: different hours. Some people want to you know, look after
Speaker 1: their kids in the day and work at night. So
Speaker 1: how do we manage that? Because let's give everybody the
Speaker 1: benefit of the doubt. How am I meant to know
Speaker 1: that you don't work on a Wednesday, and Holly doesn't
Speaker 1: work on a Thursday afternoon, and someone else works at night,
Speaker 1: but not on every second Friday. I think that's what's difficult.
Speaker 3: Yes, but this is an issue with our sense of
Speaker 3: immediacy about things that actually aren't urgent. I realized that
Speaker 3: I start every email with sorry for my delay. Your
Speaker 3: email wasn't actually urgent, and I'm responding two days later.
Speaker 3: I think I need to delete that sentence and just
Speaker 3: go I'll give you the responsible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, what fair work are saying too. It's about
Speaker 2: setting up the expectation between the employer and the employee,
Speaker 2: right is that I mean, again, media business different, but
Speaker 2: anytime we've ever hired anybody, you sort of make it
Speaker 2: obvious that not to say you will be working around
Speaker 2: the clock, not that at all, but that sometimes things
Speaker 2: will happen and we will expect, you know, xyz. And
Speaker 2: I think there's room in this legislation. It seems that
Speaker 2: way for that kind of give and take and that
Speaker 2: kind of flexibility. But it is interesting because you know,
Speaker 2: we were saying before that it's not that the boss
Speaker 2: shouldn't send the email, but I guess this is giving
Speaker 2: permission to the person who's taken their work email notifications
Speaker 2: off their phone, you know what I mean. But the
Speaker 2: tricky part is is that if you're in a team
Speaker 2: and you've taken your work email notifications off your phone
Speaker 2: and your colleague has not, that's tricky because and I
Speaker 2: guess that's what this legislation is trying to sort of
Speaker 2: on pick right, is that the person who has not
Speaker 2: doesn't get the advantage. It's hard.
Speaker 3: On unlimited out loud access, we drop episodes every Tuesday
Speaker 3: and Thursday exclusively from mum and MAYA. Subscribers follow the
Speaker 3: link in the show notes to get us in your
Speaker 3: ears five days a week, and a huge thank you
Speaker 3: to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 6: The three word method is essentially distilling your style to
Speaker 6: three adjectives. So the three word method not only helps
Speaker 6: people identify their style, but also helps them cultivate it
Speaker 6: into something that is exciting and expressive and fun.
Speaker 3: Apparently all you need to transform your wardrobe is three words.
Speaker 3: In Sydney, at least, it feels like we're on the
Speaker 3: cusp of a new season. It's warming up, springers around
Speaker 3: the corner, and I am yet again in a wardrobe crisis.
Speaker 3: Then I came across Alison Bornstein's dialist and a wardrobe
Speaker 3: consultant big on TikTok. She has a three word method
Speaker 3: that is meant to change how you dress. And here's
Speaker 3: how it works. You choose three adjectives. For those who
Speaker 3: are already stuck, that's three describing words, one practical, one aspirational,
Speaker 3: and one emotional to encapsulate the way you want to
Speaker 3: show up in the world. Now to help, I actually
Speaker 3: went to her TikTok and I found out how she
Speaker 3: would describe Carrie Bradshaw's style. I thought this would help
Speaker 3: everyone three words she had for Carrie were daring, elaborate,
Speaker 3: and mismatched.
Speaker 1: So that's how she's done it in the wrong order.
Speaker 1: Mismatched is practical because it's just a description.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree, what aspirational would be daring?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 3: And emotional, Well, elaborate doesn't really work anyway. She broke
Speaker 3: her roles and we're not going to break them. We're
Speaker 3: not going to break them.
Speaker 1: I've got again.
Speaker 2: I want to hear me? Is three?
Speaker 1: My practical word is comfortable?
Speaker 4: Ye.
Speaker 1: My aspirational word is cool, which is so try hard,
Speaker 1: you try hard. And my emotional word is joy.
Speaker 2: That's perfect for you.
Speaker 3: What's really troubling me about those three words is it
Speaker 3: two out of the three were the same as my words,
Speaker 3: and that's my worst nightmare.
Speaker 2: What's your practical word?
Speaker 3: My practical word is obviously comfort, which is why I
Speaker 3: always have my camel too leggings on my aspirational And
Speaker 3: this is what she says is that words mean different
Speaker 3: things to different people.
Speaker 1: That's true. What's your aspirational word cool? Oh no, that's
Speaker 1: not right for you.
Speaker 2: What do you mean temperature wise?
Speaker 1: But you don't seem like you're trying to be cool
Speaker 1: like I'm the biggest try hard in the world. I'm
Speaker 1: always trying so hard. You're not.
Speaker 3: I don't mean coolers in trendy, I mean temperature. I
Speaker 3: mean coolers in I want it to look like I
Speaker 3: haven't tried, which I do do disheveled, disheveled, effortless.
Speaker 1: I think you're a effortless whereas I don't want to
Speaker 1: look effortless.
Speaker 2: Now you want to look like and what's your last word?
Speaker 2: What's your emotional word?
Speaker 3: From emotional? I really thought about it and I went,
Speaker 3: I want to look self assured. I want to look
Speaker 3: like I know who I am. When I wear my clothes,
Speaker 3: It's like, say what you like. It might not be
Speaker 3: on trend. It's certainly not feminine or sexy. But is
Speaker 3: that something that you'd look at and go, Jessee, I
Speaker 3: wear that kind of you know what I mean? I
Speaker 3: don't want to look generic. No, I do want to
Speaker 3: look I.
Speaker 1: Want to look Who's going to say unassuming? But that's
Speaker 1: not an emotion.
Speaker 3: No, Like I don't want to be wearing the latest.
Speaker 3: I have no desire to be wearing the shoes everyone's wearing,
Speaker 3: or to have the latest like I don't know thinging
Speaker 3: in Zara. That's really and it's not not classic.
Speaker 1: Your word isn't classic. I mean that would be a
Speaker 1: practical word, but it's not classic. It's what did you say?
Speaker 1: The word was plain?
Speaker 3: Simple, like just simple.
Speaker 1: Basically that's not an emotion, Holly.
Speaker 3: I think it's confident. I think that I just want
Speaker 3: to feel like myself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, emotional.
Speaker 3: I don't want to feel like I'm dressing. I get
Speaker 3: that comfort cool, yeah, which we've changed to effortless.
Speaker 2: Effortless and confident. I like that. That sounds good. Okay.
Speaker 2: My practical word is easy. Has to be easy, like
Speaker 2: I get dressed. Don't want to have a fucking clock
Speaker 2: in the morning. It has to be easy, put it on,
Speaker 2: throw it on, yeah done.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because yours wouldn't be comfortable because you're always in heels,
Speaker 1: whereas mine wouldn't be easy because I find that's so sad.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it has to be for me easy and my
Speaker 2: aspirational world is classy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's why she was Jean's am.
Speaker 2: I am I allowed that one. I want to look classy.
Speaker 3: She never looks slutty.
Speaker 2: I'd like to.
Speaker 1: I wish you could see my face that I'm not
Speaker 1: dissing you in any way.
Speaker 2: I don't know that you're my stylist.
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's it's interesting that that's what
Speaker 1: you're aspiring to.
Speaker 2: Aspiring to mean classic, I mean like the kind of
Speaker 2: clothes that I look at and I go, I love
Speaker 2: that is people who wear very classic, maybe classic, but
Speaker 2: like an effort less good word, like a silk shirt
Speaker 2: and a well. I like classy, like sophisticated.
Speaker 1: I'm going to say modern classy, because classy to me
Speaker 1: might feel.
Speaker 3: A bit like a pencil skirt.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Like fancy you're rich, like you're not that, Like you
Speaker 1: don't want that book?
Speaker 2: I don't want.
Speaker 1: You're not fancy you're rich? What about elevated?
Speaker 3: Elevated? I think that could elevated, I do.
Speaker 2: I always think I would like quiet luxury if I
Speaker 2: could afford. What's your my emotional word? I don't know.
Speaker 2: You have to help me with that. What's my emotional word?
Speaker 2: The things I like wearing the most, that I feel
Speaker 2: the most mean emotional, blue.
Speaker 1: Exactly.
Speaker 3: Emotional. I don't know, I do not really, I do
Speaker 3: really like it. I actually, yes, I went to her
Speaker 3: thing because I couldn't think of any words. So playful.
Speaker 3: I'm just gonna throw words.
Speaker 1: But these emotional words are just words.
Speaker 3: These are just all the words, okay, soft, romantic, sensual,
Speaker 3: not holly, demure, no, no floral, no hard, edgy, sexy, tough, minimal, sculptural, neutral, polished, graphic,
Speaker 3: elaborate what I need some emotional.
Speaker 2: This is the thing about people who can speak fashion
Speaker 2: and people who can't write, is that most of us
Speaker 2: know I'm not obviously a fashion person.
Speaker 3: Like me is.
Speaker 2: But there's like when you look at a pair of genes,
Speaker 2: you instinctively know I would wear those, or I wouldn't
Speaker 2: wear those. You know what I mean and like, but
Speaker 2: it's hard to put the words around.
Speaker 1: I actually think that for you, the word is classy,
Speaker 1: even though you know that idea of classy isn't really
Speaker 1: an emotion, but I think for you it is. It's
Speaker 1: like they say fat isn't a feeling, but every woman
Speaker 1: knows that it is, and so I think for you,
Speaker 1: the emotional word is classy because you want to feel classy.
Speaker 1: I'm going to look at the aspirational word is classic
Speaker 1: for you, but modern classic, And the practical word is
Speaker 1: easy easy Jesse. Where did we get stuck with you,
Speaker 1: we couldn't find your third word, which is your emotional word.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have self assured.
Speaker 2: Yeah, confident, I think is good.
Speaker 3: The days I feel the best are when I think
Speaker 3: I have something on. This sounds weird because I don't
Speaker 3: really care about clothes, but I like going to the
Speaker 3: office and being like, I know no one else is
Speaker 3: going to have this on. I feel really like myself
Speaker 3: in this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what about distinctive isn't right because you do. It's
Speaker 1: not like you want to look different to everybody else.
Speaker 1: You just want to look like yourself.
Speaker 3: But I don't know who I am. Oh, this is
Speaker 3: so deep problem.
Speaker 2: It's getting hard. Yeah, because confident, as it would also
Speaker 2: probably be one of my aspirational words. It's like I
Speaker 2: want to look like I know what I'm doing. And
Speaker 2: sometimes you know when you see yourself on a video
Speaker 2: and like you're sitting across from somebody who's really polished
Speaker 2: and stuff, and you go, oh my god, I look
Speaker 2: like the world's oldest work experience kid.
Speaker 3: Yeah. The days I feel the worst are when I
Speaker 3: come in and I feel messy, I feel crinkled. I
Speaker 3: feel like I threw this together at the last minute
Speaker 3: and it doesn't work. Yeah, it's just not consistent with
Speaker 3: who I want to be today. I don't feel like
Speaker 3: I look elevated and not.
Speaker 1: What's interesting about your fashion is that, like I think
Speaker 1: I know it, and then you'll come in like you
Speaker 1: did last week wearing an amazing two piece from Witchery
Speaker 1: that looks stunning. You never look bad like you had
Speaker 1: on like this brown skirt with a matching sort of
Speaker 1: cropped shirt and a belt, and it was unlike anything
Speaker 1: I'd ever seen before, and it was unlike anything I'd
Speaker 1: ever think of you wearing. But you seemed kind of
Speaker 1: comfortable in it and confident.
Speaker 3: And I suppose this is actually this is what she says,
Speaker 3: that these words are ever changing, and I'm finding that
Speaker 3: in this period of my life it's very different. Like definitely,
Speaker 3: in my early twenties, feminine or something would have come
Speaker 3: out right. There would have been something where I felt
Speaker 3: more sculpted, or I had to have a particular neckline
Speaker 3: or whatever. I feel very diff I.
Speaker 1: Know what the word is for you, possibly emotionally independent,
Speaker 1: because you're not trendy. You don't want to be trendy.
Speaker 1: You just want to look like yourself and how you
Speaker 1: feel on any day might change. It might be one
Speaker 1: day leggings and another day it might be this two
Speaker 1: piece with a belt. But that's you, Holly and I
Speaker 1: are much more. I mean, I'm obviously the biggest trendslot. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Holly likes a version of a trend, but she's always
Speaker 1: very late to it, and you are willfully. It's not
Speaker 1: like I'm going to wear something really crazy. You're just independent.
Speaker 1: You won't be told. And if I ever because I'm like,
Speaker 1: I think Jesse should wear this. And when I've ever
Speaker 1: tried to like give your clothes or whatever, you won't
Speaker 1: have a bar of it because it's someone else's idea
Speaker 1: of you.
Speaker 3: Do you think that your words have changed over time?
Speaker 1: No? Really, Like in my magazine days, I don't think
Speaker 1: I would have.
Speaker 3: Remember when you were trying to dress like a boss,
Speaker 3: like a little while ago.
Speaker 1: Oh god, I had a very weird thing that happened
Speaker 1: for about a year. It's actually Katy's fault. I started
Speaker 1: dressing like her character Evelyn on Strife in suits.
Speaker 3: You know what it was. You were trying to dress
Speaker 3: like someone who took themselves seriously for a minute, and
Speaker 3: then you were like, wait, I don't.
Speaker 1: I wanted to do a full version of me, but
Speaker 1: it just wasn't me.
Speaker 2: But also that was true to your I think your
Speaker 2: words are spot on, and it's not the surprise that
Speaker 2: you're the person who's most clothes focused about that because
Speaker 2: those things were bringing your joy at the time, but
Speaker 2: then they stopped. And when things stopped giving you joy,
Speaker 2: cond dead, which I very much respect. Whereas I'll be like, oh,
Speaker 2: I used to like wearing that thing. Better.
Speaker 1: Still, my practical word, apart from comfort would probably be
Speaker 1: wetex or sponge because I'm just so suggestible. I'm so suggestible,
Speaker 1: Like I'll see Asher wearing something and I go, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm going to dress like Asher. And then I'll see
Speaker 1: Copenhagen fashion Week and I'm like, oh, I'm going to
Speaker 1: dress like those scandy girls. I'm very porous.
Speaker 2: So what's the useful part of this conversation. You're supposed
Speaker 2: to find you three words, and then it's supposed to
Speaker 2: help you what decide what you're going to buy. So
Speaker 2: a bit of advice which I quite liked. The first
Speaker 2: was that she said, if you're having trouble with your words,
Speaker 2: have a chat to some friends or some family or
Speaker 2: your partner, which made me laugh because Luca would be like,
Speaker 2: I don't want to talk about this, and she said,
Speaker 2: don't get offended, which I felt like was for me
Speaker 2: because I would say how do I dress? And me
Speaker 2: would be like ugly stupid.
Speaker 3: It might be like, they're not criticals. I'm looking for today.
Speaker 3: So you meant to do that, and then you're meant
Speaker 3: to write what that word means to you because our
Speaker 3: definitions are different, as mey or and I said, cool,
Speaker 3: they mean different things to us. So we've got to
Speaker 3: really flesh it out. And the third thing is if
Speaker 3: you've got Pinterest or something, they say, make a board.
Speaker 3: You'll see consistent things come through, Like I'm not big
Speaker 3: on color, like I quite like a monochromatic. Blacks and
Speaker 3: whites and bright things just don't work for me. And
Speaker 3: so she said to do that, and that will help
Speaker 3: you with your wardrobe, and like going out and deciding.
Speaker 1: Another way to get those first two words. The practical
Speaker 1: word is pull out all the things that you wear
Speaker 1: the most. Yes, stay in your wardrobe, the ten percent
Speaker 1: of your wardrobe that you wear ninety percent of the time,
Speaker 1: and look at what it all has in common. Maybe
Speaker 1: that word is black. Maybe that word is jenes. Maybe
Speaker 1: that word is comfort, maybe that word is sexy. You've
Speaker 1: got to find what the things that you wear all
Speaker 1: the time have in common. The aspirational word is who
Speaker 1: do you want to dress? Like? Like who would you
Speaker 1: love to be? Who do you like? Follow on Pinterest
Speaker 1: and whatever? And then for the emotion is thinking about
Speaker 1: when you're wearing something, and we all know that feeling
Speaker 1: where you just go, I feel.
Speaker 3: Right, I feel like myself today. Do you have a
Speaker 3: style like on like one person You've always said, carry Bradshaw?
Speaker 3: But like, is there anyone else, like a real person
Speaker 3: who you look to?
Speaker 1: It's the suggestible thing because I'm always looking for different people,
Speaker 1: so I'll like carries Bradshaw style. For a while, I
Speaker 1: reminded myself of her style when I started going too
Speaker 1: far down the suit route and I got a bit sad.
Speaker 1: And then I was like, oh, I remember wearing prints
Speaker 1: and miss things actually gives me a lot of joy.
Speaker 1: So the suits weren't giving me joy. I'd sort of
Speaker 1: moved back. But now there's no particular designer, there's no
Speaker 1: particular celebrity that I'm always like, I want to dress
Speaker 1: how about you? Holly?
Speaker 2: My complete style crush. And the only reason why I
Speaker 2: watched this terrible show is Sylvie and Emily in Paris.
Speaker 3: Have you ever seen that?
Speaker 2: But I can't dress like her because she's like a
Speaker 2: teeny little stick person, but like she is the older
Speaker 2: person in Emily woman. She's a mid life French woman
Speaker 2: and she's very sexy, very sexy, got lots of like
Speaker 2: silk shirts and lots of very like. I love and
Speaker 2: admire people who can wear very simple things and make
Speaker 2: them look amazing.
Speaker 1: Rich women would be rich women slightly.
Speaker 2: Undone like hair, which is easy for me.
Speaker 3: Your feeling is French.
Speaker 1: No, your aspirational word is French.
Speaker 2: French. There you go.
Speaker 1: And I wish I was.
Speaker 2: I wish I was that, but I'm not. But like
Speaker 2: vibes of that. I remember when it was the last
Speaker 2: season was on. I became obsessed with this gold silk
Speaker 2: shirt she wore, and I was messaging our fashion editor
Speaker 2: all the time, going and she's like, Babe, it's Gucci.
Speaker 1: Well that's not gonna.
Speaker 3: Happen, or she can't buy Gucci, but we should buy
Speaker 3: Hollya beret, oh yeah, and a bagette out louders. We
Speaker 3: did a subscriber episode about whether or not it's appropriate
Speaker 3: to buy your friend a sex toy, and look, I
Speaker 3: got very personal because spoiler that dilemma was written in
Speaker 3: by Maya, and yeah it was me that thought it
Speaker 3: was inappropriate. There were a bunch of responses by the
Speaker 3: out louders. Some said best gift ever, those things are
Speaker 3: bloody expensive. Others said it's a hard note from me,
Speaker 3: and another said, as long as it isn't pre loved,
Speaker 3: which I feel like Mayor.
Speaker 1: I imagine if I'm giving people use vibrated, I would
Speaker 1: put it.
Speaker 3: It's not beyond you.
Speaker 2: There was another dilemma in the episode two, so go
Speaker 2: and listen. The link is in our show notes for
Speaker 2: you to follow it. A big thank you to all
Speaker 2: of you out louders for listening to us on today's show.
Speaker 2: Please send us your three words about your fashion, and
Speaker 2: actually send us the three words you think that we
Speaker 2: should have because we're probably delusional and we will be
Speaker 2: back in your ears tomorrow. Thank you to our fabulous
Speaker 2: team for helping us put this show together.
Speaker 3: Bye bye, bye bye.
Speaker 1: Shout out to any Muma Mia subscribers listening if you
Speaker 1: love the show and want to support us as well.
Speaker 1: Subscribing to MoMA mia is the very best way to
Speaker 1: do so. There is a link in the episode description