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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 2: Mama Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking

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Speaker 2: about on Monday, the twenty sixth of August, and I'm

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Speaker 2: Holly Wainwright, I'm.

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Speaker 3: Mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 2: On the show today, how a seventeen year old boy

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Speaker 2: and some down shifting alpha blokes started a conversation about

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Speaker 2: good men on the world stage. Also, as of today,

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Speaker 2: you are legally allowed to ignore your boss after hours,

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Speaker 2: or are you? That sound you can hear is me

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Speaker 2: leaving all my group chats with Mia and she's going

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Speaker 2: to steal herself for that. For that conversation.

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Speaker 1: Hollywayen Wrights left the chat and the trick to solving

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Speaker 1: all your clothes problems comes down apparently to a three

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Speaker 1: word system.

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Speaker 2: But first, Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 3: In case you missed it, Ben Affleck has been pictured

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Speaker 3: with another woman amid his separation from Jennifer Lopez, and

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Speaker 3: that woman is Kick Kennedy, the daughter of Robert F. Kennedy.

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Speaker 3: Just a note on the Kennedy's there's a lot of them.

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Speaker 3: Can someone I tried to google? But Kick Kennedy was

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Speaker 3: a sister and a niece and a nephew and blah

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Speaker 3: blah blah. So is my Kick. Yes, the niece of

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Speaker 3: the JFK.

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Speaker 1: One, Robert Kennedy Junior. His father was Robert Kennedy, who

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Speaker 1: was the brother.

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Speaker 3: Of I've missed a generation here. See there's a lot.

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Speaker 1: He was assassinated as well as JFK being assassinated.

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Speaker 2: But Kick's dad, as Maya says, is the one who

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Speaker 2: was running for president until five minutes.

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Speaker 1: It was a very big weekend for the that part

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Speaker 1: of the Kennedy family.

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Speaker 2: The backup, back up, Ben has moved on so quickly.

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Speaker 3: This is correct, it's this scoreless gossip. Yes it is.

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Speaker 3: Kick Kennedy is thirty six years old. She's been pictured

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Speaker 3: with fifty two year old Ben at the Polo Lounge

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Speaker 3: at the Beverly Hills Hotel, as well as at other

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Speaker 3: hotspots hotspots. Holly discuss it's probably not.

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Speaker 1: True, but I'm here for it's it's very random because

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Speaker 1: I read it.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's true, And often the more random the story,

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Speaker 2: the more real it is. And again, out loud as

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Speaker 2: we know this is scurrilous gossip, but we also know

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Speaker 2: you're invested in the benefit divorce, so we want to

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Speaker 2: keep you up to date because you wouldn't want to

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Speaker 2: miss anything.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, wouldn't want to.

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Speaker 1: Miss anthy you mean us.

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Speaker 2: But also it maybe explains the timing of the divorce

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Speaker 2: filing because, as we discussed last week, they've been separated

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Speaker 2: for a while. They've been working out whether or not

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Speaker 2: to push the button, pull the trigger, whatever you want

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Speaker 2: to call it. And maybe the fact that Ben is

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Speaker 2: hanging around with someone new it seems like a push

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Speaker 2: the trigger.

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Speaker 3: No, incorrect, You've got the timing wrong. What's happened is

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Speaker 3: that Jlo has filed for divorce, which we all said

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Speaker 3: was a bit of a power move. He kind of

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Speaker 3: played her cards when she filed for the separation. Now

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Speaker 3: it was Ben's move, and this is Ben's move. It

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Speaker 3: was ball in his court and he went, I've got kick,

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Speaker 3: who is even though I don't fully understand the family

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Speaker 3: tree an American institution, I'm hanging out with thirty six

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Speaker 3: year old.

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Speaker 2: Kick Another American institution, Jennifer Lopezi, the American institution. So

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Speaker 2: you think divorce filing. Wednesday, Ben got out his little

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Speaker 2: black book and went who could I go on a

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Speaker 2: high profile date with? To the poet last tonight?

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Speaker 3: And the reason I want to talk about this is

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Speaker 3: because of how relatable it is because I once broke

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Speaker 3: up with someone. Well I think he broke up with me,

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Speaker 3: but anyway, that doesn't matter. And then I went on

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Speaker 3: Instagram and he posted a picture of him with some

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Speaker 3: woman Where did she come from? At the end of

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Speaker 3: a run which was very passag because I can't run,

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Speaker 3: so it was like a very I went for a

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Speaker 3: run with this beautiful who can woman who's got rosy

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Speaker 3: cheeks from exerting herself. And when I saw that, I

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Speaker 3: went I know how Ja Loo feels because I have

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Speaker 3: also had to have a look at the new woman.

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Speaker 1: Had they gone for rhinal had they just had.

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Speaker 3: Sex, Maybe they'd had sex, but they made it look

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Speaker 3: like they were doing very something, very wholesome on a Saturday,

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Speaker 3: and it made me feel bad. And I think that

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Speaker 3: j Loo is annoyed today. Help Gosh and Gwen.

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Speaker 4: You are my empire world and I love you.

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Speaker 2: Last week in America was all about Kamala Harris in

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Speaker 2: the minds of delusional small el liberals like me everywhere.

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Speaker 2: We have a new queen and she wears a navy

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Speaker 2: pantsuit with a pussy bow shirt.

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Speaker 3: It's a pussy bow shirt back.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I know this isn't important louds for her big

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Speaker 2: speech on Friday.

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Speaker 1: It's important.

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Speaker 2: She wore a very like, understated but very classy. I

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Speaker 2: wouldn't you agree me, Chloe suit, which is fancy A

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Speaker 2: class designer pantsuit fitted pussy bow shirt. Excellent. Anyway, It

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Speaker 2: was the DNC, the Democratic National Convention, as we discussed

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Speaker 2: briefly last week, and it dominated did the global news

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Speaker 2: cycle for a week, as it was designed to do.

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Speaker 2: There were quite a few storylines. There were impassioned talks

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Speaker 2: about abortion from survivors of sexual abuse, about gun violence

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Speaker 2: from survivors of shootings. There were anti war protesters outside.

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Speaker 2: There was the much admired speeches from Michelle Obama, Oprah Winfrey,

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Speaker 2: Hillary Clinton, and of course Kamala Harris herself. But I

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Speaker 2: want to talk about blokes, not about all those amazing women,

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Speaker 2: because of course I do, because whether or not you

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Speaker 2: give U stuff about American politics, and I know quite

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Speaker 2: a lot of you listening do not there is something

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Speaker 2: very interesting bubbling along here about masculinity and celebrations of

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Speaker 2: a different kind of masculinity that was on big display

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Speaker 2: last week, and it's in very stark opposition to Trump's

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Speaker 2: very basic man strong, big, strong man, face down, scary

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Speaker 2: of the strong men act.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: Obviously, there's the subtext here that every powerful man who

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Speaker 2: took the stage over those four days was in support

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Speaker 2: of a powerful woman. But also those men showing a human,

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Speaker 2: emotional and family side seemed to be very high on

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Speaker 2: the priority scale of what they were there to do.

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Speaker 2: There was Kamala's husband, Doug em Hoff, who was beautifully

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Speaker 2: introduced by a very emotional video by his son. Now

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Speaker 2: Doug is a hyper successful lawyer entertainment lawyer in Los

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Speaker 2: Angeles who quit his regular job to support Kamala as

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Speaker 2: VP and now to get her elected. And her talk

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Speaker 2: he gave, and the pride and the strength he shows

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Speaker 2: at being the man behind the woman is a vibe

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Speaker 2: he will be, obviously if she is elected, the first

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Speaker 2: first gentleman and the last time a woman ran. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: her first gentleman had been the president. So this is

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Speaker 2: an entirely new vibe that was.

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Speaker 1: Currently the second gentleman, because she's the vice president.

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Speaker 2: And that's the job. Apparently it is a job, not

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Speaker 2: a paid one. And then there was of course Tim Waltz,

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Speaker 2: who's Harris's nice guy running mate, and his excellent mind

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Speaker 2: your own goddamn business speech, which is what he's very

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Speaker 2: good at doing. Is like where I'm from in the Midwest,

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Speaker 2: we stay out of each other's bedrooms. Like he's really

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Speaker 2: good at that stuff. But his speech was almost overshadowed

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Speaker 2: by the attendants of his young son Gus. Now Gus

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Speaker 2: was in the stands watching his dad speak, along with

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Speaker 2: his mum, Gwen and his sister Hope. Gus Waltz, according

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Speaker 2: to his parents, has a non verbal learning disorder in

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Speaker 2: addition to an anxiety disorder and ADHD. In this case,

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Speaker 2: a non verbal disorder is not the same as non speaking.

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Speaker 2: It's a disorder that impacts the way that kids absorb

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Speaker 2: and utilize information. But there are lots of interventions you

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Speaker 2: can have and it doesn't mean that Gus can't talk

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Speaker 2: and Gus drives and all of those things. Tim and

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Speaker 2: Gwen have spoken about it several times, and they definitely

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Speaker 2: refer to him as neurodivergent and his very enthusiastic response

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Speaker 2: to his dad led some people to mock him. Imagine

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Speaker 2: being that awful, But anyway.

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Speaker 1: Are you serious, because all I've seen is love for him.

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Speaker 1: He became quite iconic quite quickly because when I saw it,

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Speaker 1: I saw this young man getting very emotional tears in

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Speaker 1: his eyes, getting up and saying, that's my dad, that's

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Speaker 1: my dad, and this is awful. But I thought at

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Speaker 1: the time, Oh no, that kid's going to cop it

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Speaker 1: at school and he's just been caught up in the moment.

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Speaker 1: That's before I learned that he was neurodivergent and had

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Speaker 1: some challenges in his life, and then it made more

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Speaker 1: sense to me. But have some people been horrible to him?

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Speaker 2: So I'm going to play you a tiny bit of

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Speaker 2: a TikTok for an example. So there's a famous conservative

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Speaker 2: commentator called Ann Coulter. She has written book about Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump and all the rest of it, and she immediately

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Speaker 2: shared a shot of Gus Waltz along with the line

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Speaker 2: talk about weird, which was obviously in response to the

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Speaker 2: fact that Tim Waltz has coined the term weird for

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Speaker 2: the religious conservatives on the Republican side. Anyway, here's a

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Speaker 2: little TikTok by somebody responding to that.

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Speaker 1: Y'all.

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Speaker 5: I'm recording on the very last day of the Democratic

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Speaker 5: National Convention here in Chicago, Illinois, and I feel like

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Speaker 5: the entire week I've been very demure, very mindful, very cutesy.

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Speaker 5: But ever since I saw Ian Coulter say this about

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Speaker 5: Tim Walls's son who was disabled, I'm gonna say, fuck

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Speaker 5: that shit, it's all out of the window.

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Speaker 2: And then she went on to drag hard culture into

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Speaker 2: the coach and say, never mind, we go Hi, We're

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Speaker 2: dragging everybody down into hell with us now. So it

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Speaker 2: pissed a lot of people off, but equally, as you say,

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Speaker 2: Mia Gos kind of became iconic, and Tim Waltz drew

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Speaker 2: an enormous amount of praise, which is also weird when

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Speaker 2: you think about it, for actively loving his family, which

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Speaker 2: kind of shows you how low the bar is here.

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Speaker 1: Well, compare and contrast it with the other model of

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Speaker 1: masculinity and family that we're seeing, which is the big

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Speaker 1: difference between the Republican National Convention and the Democratic National Convention.

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Speaker 1: It's so clear, like when you see the Trump family

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Speaker 1: on stage, like Milania has got a contract. She won't

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Speaker 1: even look at him, will barely touch his hand, like

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Speaker 1: there's not a lot of love in that family. Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump never speaks about his kids in any way except

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Speaker 1: to say his daughter's got good tits and his youngest

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Speaker 1: son's really tall.

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Speaker 3: Are you maligning what he said. I don't think he

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Speaker 3: said that she had good tits. I think he said

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Speaker 3: he would not mind sleeping with her. Oh sorry, I

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Speaker 3: have also misrepresented Trump.

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Speaker 1: So I think it's interesting these contrasting because Tim Walls,

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Speaker 1: he didn't expect to be vice president, right, He's not

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Speaker 1: like I've been waiting for this. He got the call

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Speaker 1: from the bench pretty unexpectedly two weeks after he came

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Speaker 1: out and had this amazing cut through by the weird comment,

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Speaker 1: And so he's been visibly moved by the big crowds,

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Speaker 1: by the reception, by the people chanting coach, coach, coach.

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Speaker 1: We've seen I think a degree of emotional intelligence, not

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Speaker 1: just from Gus Walls, who I think has been emblematic

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Speaker 1: of something, but this idea that men can not just

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Speaker 1: get emotional, but also that they can respect women, that

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Speaker 1: they can fight for the rights of women, and that

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Speaker 1: the be able to have control over their own bodies,

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Speaker 1: and that idea of contrasted with Donald Trump, which is

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Speaker 1: this cruel, what I would call toxic masculinity, which is

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Speaker 1: about mocking people, being cruel to people, being very sort

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Speaker 1: of thrusting and aggressive, and then JD Vance, which is

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Speaker 1: about oppressing women and being really malevolent and wanting to

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Speaker 1: wind the clock back for women. That type of masculinity.

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Speaker 3: I've heard Tim Waltz's masculinity described as tonic masculinity as

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Speaker 3: sort of the opposite to toxic. And what's so refreshing

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Speaker 3: about it is that it is still a vision of masculinity.

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Speaker 3: It's not effeminate. And this is what I think the

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Speaker 3: Republicans have set it up, that it's like we are

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Speaker 3: losing what it is to be a man. Tim Wiltz

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Speaker 3: is a man.

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Speaker 1: He's still who introduced Tim Wells at the convention, a

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Speaker 1: whole bunch of football players who he'd coached. And what's

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Speaker 1: so interesting about his time as a football coach is

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Speaker 1: that the kids at the school where he was working,

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Speaker 1: some of the queer kids, had been bullied and harassed.

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Speaker 1: He enlisted all the young men on his football team

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Speaker 1: to protect them and to stand between bullies and these guys,

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Speaker 1: and I mean that is a new model.

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Speaker 3: It's sort of the definition of inspiring. And the other

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Speaker 3: thing that's refreshing is that all of us have Tim

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Speaker 3: Wlson's in our life, and it's been really difficult to

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Speaker 3: describe this healthy masculinity that exists. And maybe Tim walsall

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Speaker 3: fix your car and dougs and yeah, exactly right. They

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Speaker 3: do see themselves as fathers and husbands and all of

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Speaker 3: those things, but it doesn't rely on the oppression of women.

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Speaker 1: They're protective without being controlling. Controlling.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they seem to like all the people on all

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Speaker 2: the very long list of impressive men who stood up

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Speaker 2: and spoke at that that none of them were threatened

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Speaker 2: by the powerful females in their lives, or at least

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Speaker 2: it seemed that way. But Jesse, I want to ask you,

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Speaker 2: is the fact that everybody's so excited about the fact

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Speaker 2: that Tim Waltz appears to it like his family. It's

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Speaker 2: like a little bit table steakes.

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Speaker 3: Most people like their families.

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Speaker 2: And also hasn't family values always belong to the right right,

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Speaker 2: So what we're seeing is it being reclaimed by the left.

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Speaker 2: But also it's kind of hilarious that people might be

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Speaker 2: surprised by that.

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Speaker 3: The irony I think is that the Republican convention talked

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Speaker 3: a lot about families, but at the Democratic Convention, we

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Speaker 3: saw a lot of families. And that's the difference. It's like,

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Speaker 3: show don't Tell. In all the yelling about abortion and

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Speaker 3: contraception and all of that that's been done, and the

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Speaker 3: JD vance and the trump of it all, I keep thinking.

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Speaker 3: I think in that same Republican image of masculinity is

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Speaker 3: the elon Musks who have a thousand children that they

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Speaker 3: don't spend any time with, and it's because they believe

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Speaker 3: that the world needs more children or whatever. White children, yes, exactly,

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Speaker 3: but with tim to actually see a family that loved

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Speaker 3: each other and to see that express I think the

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Speaker 3: neurodivergent element of this is really important. And everyone had

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Speaker 3: someone in their lives who is neurodivergent. Everyone that is

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Speaker 3: not represented in the mainstream with politics, with conventions, with elections,

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Speaker 3: it is so contrived, it is so performative. So to

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Speaker 3: see a the word authentic is overused, but there was

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Speaker 3: nothing preempted about that response. It was so pure that

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Speaker 3: that's why everyone leaned into it.

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Speaker 2: You know what, I loved about it. I can't understand

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Speaker 2: the attacks, Like I just don't understand having a mind

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Speaker 2: that closed that you would not think that a Gus

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Speaker 2: Waltz is not like a wonderful gift to have in

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Speaker 2: your family. But also it would have been a big

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Speaker 2: decision for Gwen and Tim to have Gos at that event,

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Speaker 2: not that he has been in any way sheltered or

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Speaker 2: like Tim Wells has spoken about Gus before, he's very

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Speaker 2: proud of his family, He's relatively po but that is

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Speaker 2: a level of attention that is hard for any of

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Speaker 2: us to comprehend. And what I particularly liked about it

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Speaker 2: is they would have known that Gus was going to

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Speaker 2: react in an excited way in the way that he did.

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Speaker 2: To an extent, no one was trying to like shush him,

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Speaker 2: make him sit down, like be smaller, be quiet, be less,

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Speaker 2: like Hope and Gwen were barely looking at him, you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean. They were looking at Tim on

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Speaker 2: the stage, support him for his big moment, like it

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Speaker 2: was just a very natural family moment. But it would

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Speaker 2: have taken some balls to do, because nothing happens on

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Speaker 2: that kind of stage without the nth degree of stage management.

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Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean, And it was really

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Speaker 2: I just loved that that that was there.

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Speaker 3: I agree, and that was one element they couldn't control,

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Speaker 3: and to watch that none of them were trying to

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Speaker 3: suggest that he sit down, and it would have just

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Speaker 3: been in a sense of protection for him. But I

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Speaker 3: also think that we're used to a narrative, even though

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Speaker 3: we we think we've moved past it, that to have

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Speaker 3: a child with any sort of disability or any sort

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Speaker 3: of difference is a tragedy, is something that we're fed

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Speaker 3: and that it makes your life harder, and that I

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Speaker 3: don't know, the love is different, but and that it's

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Speaker 3: something to be hidden, and that it's embarrassed. Yes, But

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Speaker 3: for him, the sentence that tim Oltz said before his

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Speaker 3: son said that's my dad is you are my entire

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Speaker 3: world and I love you. About his family, there was

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Speaker 3: no whiffs, there was no butts, there was no reference

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Speaker 3: to the fact that his son was neurodivergent. That was

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Speaker 3: a representation you don't see very often, just untridled.

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Speaker 1: I see it in your family, you know. It reminded

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Speaker 1: me so much of the way your family are, with

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Speaker 1: your cousin Simon and your aunt Michelle. This sounds so obvious,

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Speaker 1: but by treating people without kid gloves and just being

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Speaker 1: around them publicly and not making a big deal, you

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Speaker 1: give them such dignity to just be themselves. What you

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Speaker 1: said whole is so true. They weren't trying to make

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Speaker 1: him smaller. They weren't trying to make him conform. They

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Speaker 1: weren't trying to make him be in a box of

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Speaker 1: what you should be. And to me, this idea of

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Speaker 1: freedom which the Democratic Party is trying to harness, the

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Speaker 1: word freedom, it's a very beautiful thing and it's being

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Speaker 1: shown in all these different ways. And back to family,

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Speaker 1: I think that the other thing that was really notable

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Speaker 1: is Kamala Harris is in a blended family. She has

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Speaker 1: two step kids who are adults, and they were there.

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Speaker 1: And the other person who just looked incredibly moved and happy,

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Speaker 1: who I couldn't take my eyes off in her speech,

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Speaker 1: she's her stepdaughter, Ella, who was in the glasses and

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Speaker 1: was wearing that amazing ball gown. She's very cool and

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Speaker 1: she was next to her dad, and they all came

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Speaker 1: on the stage afterwards. And I don't know if you

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Speaker 1: saw many of the images from the Republican Convention, but

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Speaker 1: when you said at the beginning, hohole, I don't know

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Speaker 1: why we're talking about what they're wearing. It is actually

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Speaker 1: really important what politicians wear because they do send messages.

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Speaker 1: Whether we like it or not. We live in a

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Speaker 1: visual world. People do send messages with their clothes in

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Speaker 1: the same way that royals do, right, particularly people who

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Speaker 1: might not speak freely. And if you looked at the

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Speaker 1: esthetics of the Republican Convention, it was all women who

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Speaker 1: looked like I'm going to say fembots, a highly surgery,

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Speaker 1: had this big hair, tight dresses, sky high heels, and

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Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with that look. But when every woman

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Speaker 1: on the stage looks the same like a Fox News

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Speaker 1: female newsreader, that makes me feel nervous. That has power

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Speaker 1: in saying, this is what we believe women should be

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Speaker 1: and what women should look like, and this idea of

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Speaker 1: our idea about women is that they are a threash.

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Speaker 1: They need to be an ornament, and they need to

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Speaker 1: be controlled by taking away their rights.

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Speaker 3: The best commentary I've been hearing about the US election

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Speaker 3: has been from Ezra Kleine. I recommend listening to Ezra

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Speaker 3: Klein at the moment. He's just on fire. But he

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Speaker 3: said that every election, if you look back, it's about

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Speaker 3: one issue, and that this election is about gender. You

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Speaker 3: look at abortion, and that's obvious on the agenda. But

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Speaker 3: for him, he was like, no, no, no, this is about

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Speaker 3: masculinity and different ways in which it's manifesting. So he

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Speaker 3: was saying that you've got the Tim Waltz, and he

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Speaker 3: actually dissected the differences in the masculinity between Trump and JD. Vance.

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Speaker 4: In Donald Trump and in Tim Walls, you have two

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Speaker 4: very different but very explicit archetypes visions of what it

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Speaker 4: means to be a man. Trump's pitch is built on

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Speaker 4: I would call it an almost cartoonish overperformance of masculinity,

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Speaker 4: which is aimed at alienated young men. I mean, having

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Speaker 4: Hulk Hogan and the head of the UFC on your

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Speaker 4: night at the convention really puts a sharp point on that.

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Speaker 4: But in Tim Walls, Democrats have found their own version

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Speaker 4: of a male archetype. A football coach, a soldier, a

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Speaker 4: guy who will fix your car, but also an ally,

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Speaker 4: a man comfortable being in the role of supporting women,

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Speaker 4: a man unthreatened by social change, a man even excited

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Speaker 4: by it.

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Speaker 3: Because they're both responses to this underground rejection of feminism

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Speaker 3: that the Andrew tates that the younger generations are going

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Speaker 3: feminism has threatened us.

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Speaker 1: It's a real clap back to the or a pushback

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Speaker 1: against the way Hillary Clinton ran and her idea of

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Speaker 1: I'm with her glass ceiling. I agree. I loved what

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Speaker 1: Ezra Klin said.

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Speaker 2: I love it. But again, I'm just gonna throw it

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Speaker 2: in there. Low bar man has to think woman should

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Speaker 2: be allowed to have a job and seem to be

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Speaker 2: interested in his children and know their names.

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Speaker 1: But I love guys. But that's what's been so crazy

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Speaker 1: about the last ten years, if for anyone who's been

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Speaker 1: following American politics, and how can you not, because you've

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Speaker 1: got a man who says I'm going to grab her

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Speaker 1: by the pussy and he is elected.

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Speaker 2: I agree, and I loved like Doug's speech made me

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Speaker 2: so happy, And I love the confidence and joy that

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Speaker 2: he carries with him in the role of being like

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Speaker 2: second gentleman and possibly the first gentleman. Apparently he has

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Speaker 2: like second gentleman on his mugs, like he fully embraces it,

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Speaker 2: and apparently he's right there with Kamala like making the calls,

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Speaker 2: getting it like They are clearly a very tight unit,

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Speaker 2: and I love to see it. But I'm also always

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Speaker 2: just a little bit like, gosh, we really don't expect

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Speaker 2: much from the chaps, do we look?

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Speaker 3: I agree, and looking at the Trump example, he had

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Speaker 3: Hulk Hogan at the Republican convention, like, there's a representation,

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Speaker 3: and you were talking about a caulter. But there was

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Speaker 3: another tweet by a guy named Mike Crispy, who is

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Speaker 3: like a reporter, TV host, maga person, and he said

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Speaker 3: Tim Waltz's stupid crying son. Isn't the flex the left

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Speaker 3: think it is? You raised your kid to be a puffy,

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Speaker 3: beta male congrat. Does Baron Trump cry? Nope? Does he

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Speaker 3: love his father? Of course? That's the types of values

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Speaker 3: I want leading the country. What's telling about that is

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Speaker 3: the use of the word beta, because I think that

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Speaker 3: the Republicans have thought that the only model of masculinity

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Speaker 3: is alpha, and the Democrats are saying the opposite to that.

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Speaker 3: Isn't beta. It's just this diverse representation and the.

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Speaker 2: World isn't that simple? Guys? And ohso Baron Trump probably

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Speaker 2: barely those who his days. Does he cry every night

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Speaker 2: himself to sleep?

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Speaker 1: You are my Empire World and I love you. As

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Speaker 1: of today, there are new rules for work and they

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Speaker 1: affect anyone who has a boss or is a boss.

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Speaker 1: From today, you will be legally able to clock off

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Speaker 1: from work without having to be available after hours. It's

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Speaker 1: called the right to disconnect law, and you may have

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Speaker 1: seen people freaking out about it, bosses complaining that they

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Speaker 1: can't send an email at five point fifteen PM, or

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Speaker 1: employees complaining that one time their boss rang them while

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Speaker 1: they were giving birth to ask if they'd mark the

435
00:22:52,247 --> 00:22:56,487
Speaker 1: exams for their class. So what's going on, really? I

436
00:22:56,487 --> 00:22:59,047
Speaker 1: think we can all agree that's a bit unreasonable, unless,

437
00:22:59,087 --> 00:23:01,807
Speaker 1: of course the boss didn't know that she was giving

438
00:23:01,807 --> 00:23:02,647
Speaker 1: birth at that time.

439
00:23:02,767 --> 00:23:05,007
Speaker 3: You messaged me a lot during my labor, but in

440
00:23:05,047 --> 00:23:06,847
Speaker 3: your defense, you were emotionally invested.

441
00:23:07,327 --> 00:23:09,327
Speaker 1: I wanted to know what you thought of my fringe.

442
00:23:10,007 --> 00:23:14,607
Speaker 1: From today, in businesses with more than fifteen employees, workers

443
00:23:14,607 --> 00:23:17,927
Speaker 1: will have the right to refuse contact outside their working hours,

444
00:23:17,967 --> 00:23:22,807
Speaker 1: including calls and emails, unless that refusal is unreasonable. Now.

445
00:23:22,847 --> 00:23:26,647
Speaker 1: Brent Ferguson, who is the head of an employer group

446
00:23:26,767 --> 00:23:30,207
Speaker 1: called AI Group, explained that these new laws won't bring

447
00:23:30,247 --> 00:23:33,367
Speaker 1: an end to late night calls. He said, it's a

448
00:23:33,407 --> 00:23:37,047
Speaker 1: new right for an employee to refuse that contact, to

449
00:23:37,167 --> 00:23:39,407
Speaker 1: refuse to monitor their emails, or to refuse to take

450
00:23:39,447 --> 00:23:42,847
Speaker 1: a telephone call from their employer if it's outside their

451
00:23:42,887 --> 00:23:46,967
Speaker 1: working hours. So emails and calls, it's got to be reasonable,

452
00:23:47,447 --> 00:23:49,647
Speaker 1: but you have got the right not to respond.

453
00:23:49,887 --> 00:23:51,447
Speaker 3: Did you know that it also doesn't apply to you

454
00:23:51,487 --> 00:23:53,967
Speaker 3: if you earn over one hundred and seventy five thousand

455
00:23:54,007 --> 00:23:54,487
Speaker 3: dollars a year.

456
00:23:54,567 --> 00:23:54,887
Speaker 2: I did.

457
00:23:54,927 --> 00:23:56,047
Speaker 3: I found that in the fine Brint.

458
00:23:56,127 --> 00:23:59,087
Speaker 1: What's going to happen though, is in August next year

459
00:23:59,207 --> 00:24:01,967
Speaker 1: this will apply to all businesses, including small businesses where

460
00:24:01,967 --> 00:24:05,767
Speaker 1: there's less than fifteen employees, unless the Coalition win the

461
00:24:05,767 --> 00:24:08,767
Speaker 1: election in May, because Peter Dutton has said they will

462
00:24:08,767 --> 00:24:11,727
Speaker 1: repeal this law. Why because he says it's very bad

463
00:24:12,167 --> 00:24:16,767
Speaker 1: for employers. Now more than twenty countries have similar laws

464
00:24:16,807 --> 00:24:19,447
Speaker 1: in place, and research has found that it improved well

465
00:24:19,447 --> 00:24:23,167
Speaker 1: being and work satisfaction in any companies with these right

466
00:24:23,247 --> 00:24:27,807
Speaker 1: to disconnect policies. Holly doesn't seem reasonable when I text

467
00:24:27,807 --> 00:24:29,727
Speaker 1: you at six am to tell you that Jalo has

468
00:24:29,767 --> 00:24:33,047
Speaker 1: filed for divorce and will you be blocking me from

469
00:24:33,087 --> 00:24:33,847
Speaker 1: the grip chat.

470
00:24:35,247 --> 00:24:37,327
Speaker 2: You've just horrified me by telling me there's an election

471
00:24:37,447 --> 00:24:40,487
Speaker 2: in May. I'm not ready for that now. Anyway, back

472
00:24:40,487 --> 00:24:43,487
Speaker 2: to your question, is it unreasonable, No, it's not unreasonable.

473
00:24:44,167 --> 00:24:46,767
Speaker 2: I think these laws are great. I do. I think

474
00:24:46,807 --> 00:24:49,847
Speaker 2: that it's a correction because basically what's happened over the

475
00:24:49,887 --> 00:24:52,687
Speaker 2: past ten years is there's been a creep, right, there's

476
00:24:52,687 --> 00:24:55,007
Speaker 2: been a creep into all kinds of workplaces where it's

477
00:24:55,007 --> 00:24:57,647
Speaker 2: not essential or urgent that you answer the boss's message

478
00:24:57,687 --> 00:25:00,087
Speaker 2: in that very moment that they send it. But they can,

479
00:25:00,887 --> 00:25:03,287
Speaker 2: and very often you feel pressure to. And when I

480
00:25:03,327 --> 00:25:05,327
Speaker 2: say you, I don't mean me, I mean people in

481
00:25:05,367 --> 00:25:08,607
Speaker 2: the world. So it's kind of normal and expected now

482
00:25:08,687 --> 00:25:10,487
Speaker 2: that if you're we'll sends you an email or a

483
00:25:10,527 --> 00:25:14,167
Speaker 2: group taxst or whatever your mode of communication is that

484
00:25:14,407 --> 00:25:16,207
Speaker 2: it's a sign of how invested in how much you

485
00:25:16,327 --> 00:25:18,287
Speaker 2: like your job, whether or not you answer it at

486
00:25:18,367 --> 00:25:20,927
Speaker 2: nine o'clock at night. But what this is saying is

487
00:25:21,207 --> 00:25:23,487
Speaker 2: if your boss is messaging you at nine o'clock at night,

488
00:25:23,567 --> 00:25:25,807
Speaker 2: you don't have to answer it, and you can't be

489
00:25:25,927 --> 00:25:31,127
Speaker 2: punished for not answering it. But if it's urgent, they can't. Right,

490
00:25:31,247 --> 00:25:33,367
Speaker 2: So we work in the media. It's very different. It's

491
00:25:33,367 --> 00:25:36,567
Speaker 2: hard to switch it off. So the queen dies at.

492
00:25:36,447 --> 00:25:38,327
Speaker 1: She didn't do it during business. She didn't do it

493
00:25:38,367 --> 00:25:40,447
Speaker 1: during business, Now sign with Matthew Perry. The queen dies

494
00:25:40,447 --> 00:25:42,967
Speaker 1: in the middle of the night. Is it reasonable that

495
00:25:43,287 --> 00:25:46,167
Speaker 1: the owner of a business or your superior in a

496
00:25:46,207 --> 00:25:48,487
Speaker 1: media business gets online and says, hey, hey, hey, who's up.

497
00:25:48,487 --> 00:25:49,887
Speaker 1: We've got to do the queen or whatever.

498
00:25:50,207 --> 00:25:52,487
Speaker 2: Yes it is. I don't think that this would apply

499
00:25:53,047 --> 00:25:55,807
Speaker 2: that it wouldn't be reasonable. But should you have to

500
00:25:55,847 --> 00:25:57,847
Speaker 2: answer your message from your boss who's just going at

501
00:25:57,847 --> 00:25:59,567
Speaker 2: ten o'clock at night because they've caught up on their

502
00:25:59,607 --> 00:26:01,767
Speaker 2: emails and they're going, hey, you know that thing we

503
00:26:01,887 --> 00:26:04,847
Speaker 2: talked about for that thing next week? You know we

504
00:26:04,887 --> 00:26:07,687
Speaker 2: should do blah blah blah. That's the message you're allowed

505
00:26:07,687 --> 00:26:08,447
Speaker 2: to ignore, right.

506
00:26:08,527 --> 00:26:11,607
Speaker 3: I agree with the Holy completely and I really like

507
00:26:11,687 --> 00:26:15,167
Speaker 3: these laws. And it's probably worth noting that there are

508
00:26:15,207 --> 00:26:17,247
Speaker 3: a lot of details that haven't been ironed out. They're

509
00:26:17,247 --> 00:26:19,207
Speaker 3: actually going to wait to see what happens and what

510
00:26:19,247 --> 00:26:23,087
Speaker 3: discussions take place in workplaces to get all the regulations perfected.

511
00:26:23,167 --> 00:26:25,487
Speaker 1: Because the first thing you said, Holly, when we talked

512
00:26:25,527 --> 00:26:28,807
Speaker 1: about this this morning was what's the definition of reasonable

513
00:26:28,887 --> 00:26:32,287
Speaker 1: Because the employer and the employee might have very different definitions.

514
00:26:32,687 --> 00:26:36,127
Speaker 1: This feels a little bit unhelpful. The Fair Work Commission

515
00:26:36,447 --> 00:26:40,567
Speaker 1: is going to provide guidelines around this, but it's so

516
00:26:40,687 --> 00:26:42,647
Speaker 1: far said it's not going to do so until people

517
00:26:42,687 --> 00:26:45,407
Speaker 1: start complaining, and then they're going to use real world

518
00:26:45,447 --> 00:26:48,247
Speaker 1: examples to help form those guidelines. So it's a bit

519
00:26:48,287 --> 00:26:49,247
Speaker 1: wild West at the moment.

520
00:26:49,607 --> 00:26:52,807
Speaker 3: The issue that I foresee is that if you are

521
00:26:53,527 --> 00:26:55,807
Speaker 3: someone who's earning over one hundred and seventy five thousand dollars,

522
00:26:55,847 --> 00:26:58,847
Speaker 3: it's not applied to you this right to disconnect thing.

523
00:26:59,407 --> 00:27:02,047
Speaker 3: It's often that person who's reaching out to the twenty

524
00:27:02,047 --> 00:27:04,447
Speaker 3: two year old who is on a way less salary.

525
00:27:04,967 --> 00:27:08,887
Speaker 3: In that way, it takes someone very boundaried and someone

526
00:27:08,927 --> 00:27:12,367
Speaker 3: with a bit willpower to ignore it. My dream is

527
00:27:12,367 --> 00:27:14,567
Speaker 3: that I could walk into my house and have a

528
00:27:14,607 --> 00:27:16,527
Speaker 3: box that I could lock, and my phone would go

529
00:27:16,647 --> 00:27:19,407
Speaker 3: in there, and I would ignore it until I put

530
00:27:19,407 --> 00:27:21,167
Speaker 3: my baby to sleep, so two or three hours that

531
00:27:21,207 --> 00:27:21,647
Speaker 3: would be.

532
00:27:21,687 --> 00:27:22,527
Speaker 2: I could do that.

533
00:27:23,127 --> 00:27:24,287
Speaker 3: I could, I could.

534
00:27:24,447 --> 00:27:27,407
Speaker 2: I don't know if I like no offense, Jesse, but

535
00:27:27,407 --> 00:27:28,527
Speaker 2: you're not saving lives.

536
00:27:28,607 --> 00:27:29,287
Speaker 3: I'm not on your own.

537
00:27:29,407 --> 00:27:33,367
Speaker 2: Your role is no longer a news breaking covering role

538
00:27:33,647 --> 00:27:36,767
Speaker 2: on the website. Yeah, it's unlikely there would be an

539
00:27:36,807 --> 00:27:39,887
Speaker 2: out loud emergency that wouldn't need to be addressed in

540
00:27:39,967 --> 00:27:43,687
Speaker 2: that moment between the hours of five and seven pm.

541
00:27:43,807 --> 00:27:46,967
Speaker 1: But the problem is, and this is why laws like

542
00:27:47,007 --> 00:27:50,407
Speaker 1: this are relevant, the place where we get our work

543
00:27:50,407 --> 00:27:53,687
Speaker 1: communication is also the place where we get communication from

544
00:27:53,727 --> 00:27:57,007
Speaker 1: our families, our friends about our social life, where we

545
00:27:57,087 --> 00:27:59,847
Speaker 1: do a million things. So it's not like you can say, okay,

546
00:27:59,887 --> 00:28:02,247
Speaker 1: the work parts of my phone I want to put

547
00:28:02,287 --> 00:28:03,087
Speaker 1: in a locked box.

548
00:28:03,327 --> 00:28:05,367
Speaker 3: Yes, I was listening to a podcast over the weekend

549
00:28:05,447 --> 00:28:07,767
Speaker 3: that said, we even know this with food, right. You

550
00:28:07,807 --> 00:28:10,487
Speaker 3: know how you unpack your grocery and you put your

551
00:28:10,487 --> 00:28:13,127
Speaker 3: dessert food and your sweet food in a different place

552
00:28:13,167 --> 00:28:14,847
Speaker 3: you put your bread because you know that when you

553
00:28:14,887 --> 00:28:16,567
Speaker 3: go to get your breakfast food, you only want to

554
00:28:16,607 --> 00:28:19,767
Speaker 3: see what's for breakfast, and like you know, you've got

555
00:28:19,767 --> 00:28:21,687
Speaker 3: your bread plates and then you've got your milk places

556
00:28:21,687 --> 00:28:23,607
Speaker 3: and blah blah blah, like you sought. That's how the

557
00:28:23,687 --> 00:28:26,127
Speaker 3: human brain works. A fine doesn't allow you to sort,

558
00:28:26,407 --> 00:28:27,127
Speaker 3: it's just bombarded.

559
00:28:27,167 --> 00:28:28,367
Speaker 1: It all comes at you at once.

560
00:28:28,487 --> 00:28:30,167
Speaker 3: But I want to play devil's advocate of it. Because

561
00:28:30,167 --> 00:28:31,887
Speaker 3: there was an article that came out in the Sydney

562
00:28:31,927 --> 00:28:36,407
Speaker 3: Morning Herald by Paul o'haleran. The headline was lazy workers

563
00:28:36,407 --> 00:28:39,407
Speaker 3: are licking their lips as the right to disconnect laws

564
00:28:39,487 --> 00:28:42,967
Speaker 3: loom and I hated that headline, but then he made

565
00:28:42,967 --> 00:28:46,607
Speaker 3: some valid points. Let me explain, he's an employment lawyer,

566
00:28:46,647 --> 00:28:49,567
Speaker 3: so he would know, and he said, lazy workers exist

567
00:28:49,647 --> 00:28:52,407
Speaker 3: in every workplace. Can we agree? Of course, of course

568
00:28:52,407 --> 00:28:54,567
Speaker 3: there are lots of lazy workers, and he had a

569
00:28:54,607 --> 00:28:57,287
Speaker 3: bunch of quite funny examples. But he said the concern

570
00:28:57,527 --> 00:28:59,967
Speaker 3: is that it will often new protections to the workers

571
00:29:00,007 --> 00:29:04,167
Speaker 3: who were already idle. And he actually said that laziness

572
00:29:04,287 --> 00:29:07,567
Speaker 3: is becoming in his line of work and increasing trend

573
00:29:07,647 --> 00:29:10,727
Speaker 3: in the case that he's taken on, so things like

574
00:29:10,967 --> 00:29:14,727
Speaker 3: forging time sheets for fabricated hours, fake medical certificates, and

575
00:29:14,767 --> 00:29:17,607
Speaker 3: watching Netflix while claiming to be working from home, sleeping

576
00:29:17,607 --> 00:29:20,527
Speaker 3: on the job. Do we think that if you're a

577
00:29:20,687 --> 00:29:24,287
Speaker 3: lazy worker, you're jumping up and down today, you're pretty excited.

578
00:29:24,487 --> 00:29:27,087
Speaker 1: Well, the thing is that it actually goes both ways.

579
00:29:27,167 --> 00:29:30,167
Speaker 1: So in terms of what fair work can do, if

580
00:29:30,247 --> 00:29:33,327
Speaker 1: you feel that your boss is making unreasonable requests, you

581
00:29:33,367 --> 00:29:36,127
Speaker 1: can go to fair work and get them to adjudicate it.

582
00:29:36,767 --> 00:29:40,287
Speaker 1: If you're a boss who you feel like your worker

583
00:29:40,527 --> 00:29:44,007
Speaker 1: is not replying to reasonable requests, like say if I

584
00:29:44,087 --> 00:29:47,087
Speaker 1: run a cafe and someone's called in sick, and so

585
00:29:47,167 --> 00:29:50,687
Speaker 1: I message everybody to say can anyone work this shift? Again,

586
00:29:50,767 --> 00:29:53,127
Speaker 1: this is not just about once, this is repeatedly. If

587
00:29:53,207 --> 00:29:56,967
Speaker 1: you never respond, then I can say, well, I'm going

588
00:29:57,047 --> 00:29:58,127
Speaker 1: to have to let you go or I'm going to

589
00:29:58,167 --> 00:30:01,007
Speaker 1: go to fair work because you do need to reply. Sometimes.

590
00:30:01,247 --> 00:30:03,727
Speaker 1: It's interesting to read some of the responses from out

591
00:30:03,767 --> 00:30:06,127
Speaker 1: louders when we've asked about this in the past, and

592
00:30:06,167 --> 00:30:08,247
Speaker 1: they say, if you're, for example, a shift worker, if

593
00:30:08,287 --> 00:30:11,167
Speaker 1: you're a nurse or something, you're working casual work, your

594
00:30:11,207 --> 00:30:14,447
Speaker 1: phone can be going twenty four to seven with can

595
00:30:14,487 --> 00:30:16,447
Speaker 1: anyone do this shift? Can anyone do this shift? Can

596
00:30:16,447 --> 00:30:17,287
Speaker 1: anyone do this shift?

597
00:30:18,007 --> 00:30:18,167
Speaker 4: Now?

598
00:30:18,247 --> 00:30:20,487
Speaker 1: Let's also give the benefit of the doubt to the

599
00:30:20,487 --> 00:30:23,527
Speaker 1: person who needs to cover the shift, right And so

600
00:30:24,007 --> 00:30:26,647
Speaker 1: what I've learned, and I learned this lesson early on.

601
00:30:26,687 --> 00:30:29,287
Speaker 1: I've said it on the show before. When you're working

602
00:30:29,527 --> 00:30:32,047
Speaker 1: in an industry that's twenty four seven, and it's really hard.

603
00:30:32,047 --> 00:30:34,487
Speaker 1: And when you're the owner of the business, obviously you

604
00:30:34,607 --> 00:30:38,207
Speaker 1: never get to rest. But then there's also potentially upside

605
00:30:38,207 --> 00:30:40,247
Speaker 1: for you that there aren't for people who work for you.

606
00:30:40,927 --> 00:30:43,887
Speaker 1: But I once got told I can't keep me of

607
00:30:43,927 --> 00:30:46,967
Speaker 1: Friedman's hours anymore, and I can't be in the shower

608
00:30:47,247 --> 00:30:50,447
Speaker 1: worried that she's messaged me. And I've never forgotten that.

609
00:30:50,447 --> 00:30:52,807
Speaker 1: It was quite early in Mamma Maya. The work hours

610
00:30:52,807 --> 00:30:55,207
Speaker 1: work crazy because the internet was crazy. So now I'm

611
00:30:55,207 --> 00:30:58,807
Speaker 1: always very clear because I as a manager and a boss,

612
00:30:59,367 --> 00:31:01,407
Speaker 1: I can't get all my work done in my hours,

613
00:31:01,407 --> 00:31:04,207
Speaker 1: so I will often be working on weekends and after work.

614
00:31:04,487 --> 00:31:06,847
Speaker 1: Now I always make it very clear you do not

615
00:31:07,007 --> 00:31:10,567
Speaker 1: need to respond until it's work out. If it's really important,

616
00:31:10,887 --> 00:31:13,247
Speaker 1: I will text you. But what I don't want to

617
00:31:13,287 --> 00:31:16,407
Speaker 1: be told I can't do is even send the emails. Yeah,

618
00:31:16,407 --> 00:31:18,767
Speaker 1: like if I give you permission to ignore them, if

619
00:31:18,767 --> 00:31:20,727
Speaker 1: the fact that I've sent them is causing you stress

620
00:31:20,767 --> 00:31:23,727
Speaker 1: and you can complain about it, that's tricky. Different if

621
00:31:23,767 --> 00:31:25,927
Speaker 1: it's on your phone, like if I was texting people

622
00:31:25,967 --> 00:31:27,847
Speaker 1: all ours, that would be different. But I only do

623
00:31:27,887 --> 00:31:28,367
Speaker 1: that to you too.

624
00:31:28,607 --> 00:31:32,407
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting because obviously I've managed teams too,

625
00:31:32,847 --> 00:31:35,047
Speaker 2: and you do like the person who will respond to

626
00:31:35,047 --> 00:31:36,887
Speaker 2: you out of ours? You do. If I'm the Queen's

627
00:31:36,927 --> 00:31:39,727
Speaker 2: dead who's around, first person who jumps on and goes yep,

628
00:31:39,807 --> 00:31:42,447
Speaker 2: no problem getting then I'm like, good, nice pattern head,

629
00:31:42,487 --> 00:31:44,487
Speaker 2: like I do, you know. But the thing is is

630
00:31:44,527 --> 00:31:48,567
Speaker 2: that that prejudice to responders to that kind of thing.

631
00:31:48,687 --> 00:31:50,927
Speaker 2: I don't know if that means that you're back to

632
00:31:50,927 --> 00:31:54,567
Speaker 2: the lazy thing. Is our definition of lazy, that you're

633
00:31:54,647 --> 00:31:58,567
Speaker 2: not constantly prioritizing work. No, because I think, like the

634
00:31:58,607 --> 00:32:01,087
Speaker 2: example that you were giving about somebody who is not

635
00:32:01,167 --> 00:32:04,167
Speaker 2: really doing their job, that's another issue that doesn't really

636
00:32:04,167 --> 00:32:05,927
Speaker 2: have anything to do with out of ours or not

637
00:32:06,127 --> 00:32:09,047
Speaker 2: like they should be dealing with that anyway, not because

638
00:32:09,047 --> 00:32:12,047
Speaker 2: of is. Whereas the thing is is that I think

639
00:32:12,047 --> 00:32:14,727
Speaker 2: we've got a culture now, and I certainly have internalized

640
00:32:14,767 --> 00:32:17,647
Speaker 2: this culture, and it's you know for many years. Is

641
00:32:17,687 --> 00:32:20,367
Speaker 2: that if my phone beeps with work and I'm out

642
00:32:20,367 --> 00:32:22,807
Speaker 2: for dinner with friends, if I'm putting the kids to bed,

643
00:32:22,847 --> 00:32:25,287
Speaker 2: if I'm cooking dinner at work, is more important. That's

644
00:32:25,287 --> 00:32:28,127
Speaker 2: the message that the twenty four to seven. Culture gives right,

645
00:32:28,807 --> 00:32:30,767
Speaker 2: and this is trying to redress that a bit, to

646
00:32:30,807 --> 00:32:33,167
Speaker 2: give you permission to go. And I think that you

647
00:32:33,207 --> 00:32:36,527
Speaker 2: know gen Z much better at this yaound Jes boundaries

648
00:32:36,807 --> 00:32:37,607
Speaker 2: is that they're and they.

649
00:32:37,527 --> 00:32:39,767
Speaker 3: Ought to be, because gen Z on average are also

650
00:32:39,807 --> 00:32:41,567
Speaker 3: being paid less because they're less experience.

651
00:32:41,647 --> 00:32:43,567
Speaker 2: But then you'd argue from the other side, you'd go,

652
00:32:43,607 --> 00:32:45,967
Speaker 2: but don't you want to be the one who had

653
00:32:46,007 --> 00:32:46,807
Speaker 2: the advantage.

654
00:32:46,967 --> 00:32:49,767
Speaker 3: The argument about jumping on and the Queen, for example,

655
00:32:49,967 --> 00:32:51,887
Speaker 3: is that and these laws cover this, is that you've

656
00:32:51,887 --> 00:32:53,567
Speaker 3: got to be compensated. So if I jump on and

657
00:32:53,567 --> 00:32:55,487
Speaker 3: do the queen, which we do, and I then work

658
00:32:55,527 --> 00:32:57,927
Speaker 3: two hours, I get two hours off on Monday, and

659
00:32:57,967 --> 00:32:58,647
Speaker 3: that should be the way.

660
00:32:58,807 --> 00:33:01,487
Speaker 2: And also what they're trying to do is say, compensate

661
00:33:01,527 --> 00:33:04,207
Speaker 2: people if you want them to work outside of hours.

662
00:33:04,247 --> 00:33:06,407
Speaker 2: And the idea about the wage cap as in that

663
00:33:06,487 --> 00:33:08,007
Speaker 2: this doesn't apply to you if you earn really good

664
00:33:08,047 --> 00:33:09,767
Speaker 2: money is that that's what you're getting paid good money

665
00:33:09,807 --> 00:33:13,287
Speaker 2: for exactly. So I think that that's all very reasonable.

666
00:33:13,487 --> 00:33:15,447
Speaker 2: But I agree with you Maya that you shouldn't not

667
00:33:15,847 --> 00:33:17,407
Speaker 2: be able to send messages.

668
00:33:17,927 --> 00:33:21,807
Speaker 1: I think what work means has just changed so much

669
00:33:22,207 --> 00:33:27,327
Speaker 1: because I think that everybody's expectations around work, they've been

670
00:33:27,487 --> 00:33:30,287
Speaker 1: so many changes. As you said at the start in

671
00:33:30,367 --> 00:33:33,047
Speaker 1: what work looks like, I mean, now you can potentially

672
00:33:33,127 --> 00:33:35,007
Speaker 1: work from home a lot of people, some people can't,

673
00:33:35,887 --> 00:33:38,567
Speaker 1: the idea of working part time, the idea of working

674
00:33:39,247 --> 00:33:43,727
Speaker 1: flexible hours, the idea of coworking, all of these things,

675
00:33:43,767 --> 00:33:47,567
Speaker 1: and now the right to disconnect and boundaries technology. Work

676
00:33:47,607 --> 00:33:50,127
Speaker 1: has changed so much. You used to go to work

677
00:33:50,167 --> 00:33:52,127
Speaker 1: at a certain time and then you would finish work

678
00:33:52,127 --> 00:33:54,327
Speaker 1: at a certain time and that would be the end.

679
00:33:54,327 --> 00:33:55,927
Speaker 1: You couldn't take work playing with you.

680
00:33:55,967 --> 00:33:58,327
Speaker 3: Really, the element of this that the out loud has

681
00:33:58,327 --> 00:34:00,847
Speaker 3: told us, which I thought was something I hadn't considered,

682
00:34:01,607 --> 00:34:06,927
Speaker 3: is that we're talking about availability, creep and bosses and employees. Actually,

683
00:34:07,007 --> 00:34:09,567
Speaker 3: what a lot about louders are having issues with are

684
00:34:09,927 --> 00:34:13,487
Speaker 3: clients parents. If you're a real estate agent, then the

685
00:34:13,487 --> 00:34:15,887
Speaker 3: people who are contacting you out of hours and expecting

686
00:34:15,887 --> 00:34:18,967
Speaker 3: an immediate response isn't your boss, it's your client or

687
00:34:19,047 --> 00:34:22,887
Speaker 3: teachers are getting cents parents or students. There were out

688
00:34:22,927 --> 00:34:25,567
Speaker 3: louders who said, hang on, my daughter is emailing her

689
00:34:25,607 --> 00:34:28,127
Speaker 3: teacher at eight thirty pm. That teacher should be offline.

690
00:34:28,167 --> 00:34:31,167
Speaker 3: That's true, which I think is it's actually a symptom

691
00:34:31,207 --> 00:34:34,207
Speaker 3: of an entire culture that now expects you to respect a.

692
00:34:34,247 --> 00:34:35,847
Speaker 1: Meeting I do. I mean it used to be that

693
00:34:35,887 --> 00:34:38,327
Speaker 1: working hours were widely understood to be nine to five.

694
00:34:38,487 --> 00:34:42,447
Speaker 1: Right now that everybody like we like flexibility. Some people

695
00:34:42,487 --> 00:34:44,407
Speaker 1: want to work part time, some people want to work

696
00:34:44,407 --> 00:34:47,007
Speaker 1: different hours. Some people want to you know, look after

697
00:34:47,047 --> 00:34:49,447
Speaker 1: their kids in the day and work at night. So

698
00:34:49,487 --> 00:34:51,967
Speaker 1: how do we manage that? Because let's give everybody the

699
00:34:51,967 --> 00:34:54,447
Speaker 1: benefit of the doubt. How am I meant to know

700
00:34:54,487 --> 00:34:56,927
Speaker 1: that you don't work on a Wednesday, and Holly doesn't

701
00:34:56,967 --> 00:34:59,887
Speaker 1: work on a Thursday afternoon, and someone else works at night,

702
00:34:59,967 --> 00:35:03,887
Speaker 1: but not on every second Friday. I think that's what's difficult.

703
00:35:04,047 --> 00:35:06,127
Speaker 3: Yes, but this is an issue with our sense of

704
00:35:06,167 --> 00:35:09,167
Speaker 3: immediacy about things that actually aren't urgent. I realized that

705
00:35:09,527 --> 00:35:13,047
Speaker 3: I start every email with sorry for my delay. Your

706
00:35:13,367 --> 00:35:15,967
Speaker 3: email wasn't actually urgent, and I'm responding two days later.

707
00:35:16,287 --> 00:35:18,327
Speaker 3: I think I need to delete that sentence and just

708
00:35:18,407 --> 00:35:20,247
Speaker 3: go I'll give you the responsible.

709
00:35:19,887 --> 00:35:21,807
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, what fair work are saying too. It's about

710
00:35:21,847 --> 00:35:24,487
Speaker 2: setting up the expectation between the employer and the employee,

711
00:35:24,567 --> 00:35:27,367
Speaker 2: right is that I mean, again, media business different, but

712
00:35:27,487 --> 00:35:30,127
Speaker 2: anytime we've ever hired anybody, you sort of make it

713
00:35:30,207 --> 00:35:32,767
Speaker 2: obvious that not to say you will be working around

714
00:35:32,807 --> 00:35:34,927
Speaker 2: the clock, not that at all, but that sometimes things

715
00:35:34,927 --> 00:35:38,127
Speaker 2: will happen and we will expect, you know, xyz. And

716
00:35:38,167 --> 00:35:41,167
Speaker 2: I think there's room in this legislation. It seems that

717
00:35:41,247 --> 00:35:42,767
Speaker 2: way for that kind of give and take and that

718
00:35:42,847 --> 00:35:46,287
Speaker 2: kind of flexibility. But it is interesting because you know,

719
00:35:46,367 --> 00:35:48,687
Speaker 2: we were saying before that it's not that the boss

720
00:35:48,687 --> 00:35:51,807
Speaker 2: shouldn't send the email, but I guess this is giving

721
00:35:51,927 --> 00:35:55,447
Speaker 2: permission to the person who's taken their work email notifications

722
00:35:55,447 --> 00:35:57,727
Speaker 2: off their phone, you know what I mean. But the

723
00:35:57,767 --> 00:35:59,687
Speaker 2: tricky part is is that if you're in a team

724
00:35:59,727 --> 00:36:02,407
Speaker 2: and you've taken your work email notifications off your phone

725
00:36:02,967 --> 00:36:06,647
Speaker 2: and your colleague has not, that's tricky because and I

726
00:36:06,647 --> 00:36:08,967
Speaker 2: guess that's what this legislation is trying to sort of

727
00:36:09,327 --> 00:36:11,327
Speaker 2: on pick right, is that the person who has not

728
00:36:11,527 --> 00:36:14,247
Speaker 2: doesn't get the advantage. It's hard.

729
00:36:15,767 --> 00:36:19,767
Speaker 3: On unlimited out loud access, we drop episodes every Tuesday

730
00:36:19,767 --> 00:36:23,967
Speaker 3: and Thursday exclusively from mum and MAYA. Subscribers follow the

731
00:36:24,047 --> 00:36:25,887
Speaker 3: link in the show notes to get us in your

732
00:36:25,927 --> 00:36:28,767
Speaker 3: ears five days a week, and a huge thank you

733
00:36:28,887 --> 00:36:30,407
Speaker 3: to all our current subscribers.

734
00:36:35,847 --> 00:36:39,687
Speaker 6: The three word method is essentially distilling your style to

735
00:36:40,167 --> 00:36:44,007
Speaker 6: three adjectives. So the three word method not only helps

736
00:36:44,007 --> 00:36:47,527
Speaker 6: people identify their style, but also helps them cultivate it

737
00:36:47,647 --> 00:36:52,287
Speaker 6: into something that is exciting and expressive and fun.

738
00:36:52,567 --> 00:36:57,087
Speaker 3: Apparently all you need to transform your wardrobe is three words.

739
00:36:58,047 --> 00:37:00,087
Speaker 3: In Sydney, at least, it feels like we're on the

740
00:37:00,127 --> 00:37:02,847
Speaker 3: cusp of a new season. It's warming up, springers around

741
00:37:02,887 --> 00:37:05,407
Speaker 3: the corner, and I am yet again in a wardrobe crisis.

742
00:37:06,247 --> 00:37:10,287
Speaker 3: Then I came across Alison Bornstein's dialist and a wardrobe

743
00:37:10,327 --> 00:37:13,727
Speaker 3: consultant big on TikTok. She has a three word method

744
00:37:13,927 --> 00:37:16,847
Speaker 3: that is meant to change how you dress. And here's

745
00:37:16,887 --> 00:37:20,607
Speaker 3: how it works. You choose three adjectives. For those who

746
00:37:20,607 --> 00:37:25,767
Speaker 3: are already stuck, that's three describing words, one practical, one aspirational,

747
00:37:25,847 --> 00:37:29,327
Speaker 3: and one emotional to encapsulate the way you want to

748
00:37:29,367 --> 00:37:32,287
Speaker 3: show up in the world. Now to help, I actually

749
00:37:32,367 --> 00:37:34,647
Speaker 3: went to her TikTok and I found out how she

750
00:37:34,687 --> 00:37:38,487
Speaker 3: would describe Carrie Bradshaw's style. I thought this would help

751
00:37:38,527 --> 00:37:42,327
Speaker 3: everyone three words she had for Carrie were daring, elaborate,

752
00:37:42,527 --> 00:37:43,367
Speaker 3: and mismatched.

753
00:37:43,927 --> 00:37:46,767
Speaker 1: So that's how she's done it in the wrong order.

754
00:37:46,807 --> 00:37:49,327
Speaker 1: Mismatched is practical because it's just a description.

755
00:37:49,527 --> 00:37:53,047
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree, what aspirational would be daring?

756
00:37:53,367 --> 00:37:53,687
Speaker 1: Yes?

757
00:37:53,727 --> 00:37:56,407
Speaker 3: And emotional, Well, elaborate doesn't really work anyway. She broke

758
00:37:56,407 --> 00:37:58,767
Speaker 3: her roles and we're not going to break them. We're

759
00:37:58,807 --> 00:37:59,487
Speaker 3: not going to break them.

760
00:37:59,687 --> 00:38:00,887
Speaker 1: I've got again.

761
00:38:01,207 --> 00:38:02,407
Speaker 2: I want to hear me? Is three?

762
00:38:02,567 --> 00:38:04,207
Speaker 1: My practical word is comfortable?

763
00:38:04,567 --> 00:38:04,647
Speaker 4: Ye.

764
00:38:05,687 --> 00:38:10,767
Speaker 1: My aspirational word is cool, which is so try hard,

765
00:38:10,447 --> 00:38:15,247
Speaker 1: you try hard. And my emotional word is joy.

766
00:38:15,407 --> 00:38:16,727
Speaker 2: That's perfect for you.

767
00:38:16,767 --> 00:38:20,167
Speaker 3: What's really troubling me about those three words is it

768
00:38:20,167 --> 00:38:21,967
Speaker 3: two out of the three were the same as my words,

769
00:38:23,087 --> 00:38:24,207
Speaker 3: and that's my worst nightmare.

770
00:38:24,407 --> 00:38:25,927
Speaker 2: What's your practical word?

771
00:38:26,607 --> 00:38:29,367
Speaker 3: My practical word is obviously comfort, which is why I

772
00:38:29,407 --> 00:38:33,687
Speaker 3: always have my camel too leggings on my aspirational And

773
00:38:33,727 --> 00:38:35,927
Speaker 3: this is what she says is that words mean different

774
00:38:35,967 --> 00:38:36,807
Speaker 3: things to different people.

775
00:38:36,807 --> 00:38:40,887
Speaker 1: That's true. What's your aspirational word cool? Oh no, that's

776
00:38:40,927 --> 00:38:42,047
Speaker 1: not right for you.

777
00:38:42,287 --> 00:38:44,447
Speaker 2: What do you mean temperature wise?

778
00:38:46,847 --> 00:38:49,207
Speaker 1: But you don't seem like you're trying to be cool

779
00:38:49,247 --> 00:38:50,927
Speaker 1: like I'm the biggest try hard in the world. I'm

780
00:38:51,007 --> 00:38:53,447
Speaker 1: always trying so hard. You're not.

781
00:38:53,767 --> 00:38:57,247
Speaker 3: I don't mean coolers in trendy, I mean temperature. I

782
00:38:57,247 --> 00:39:00,087
Speaker 3: mean coolers in I want it to look like I

783
00:39:00,127 --> 00:39:05,687
Speaker 3: haven't tried, which I do do disheveled, disheveled, effortless.

784
00:39:04,647 --> 00:39:07,767
Speaker 1: I think you're a effortless whereas I don't want to

785
00:39:07,807 --> 00:39:08,447
Speaker 1: look effortless.

786
00:39:08,487 --> 00:39:10,847
Speaker 2: Now you want to look like and what's your last word?

787
00:39:10,847 --> 00:39:11,687
Speaker 2: What's your emotional word?

788
00:39:11,727 --> 00:39:15,327
Speaker 3: From emotional? I really thought about it and I went,

789
00:39:16,287 --> 00:39:20,527
Speaker 3: I want to look self assured. I want to look

790
00:39:20,607 --> 00:39:24,807
Speaker 3: like I know who I am. When I wear my clothes,

791
00:39:25,127 --> 00:39:27,967
Speaker 3: It's like, say what you like. It might not be

792
00:39:28,047 --> 00:39:31,967
Speaker 3: on trend. It's certainly not feminine or sexy. But is

793
00:39:32,007 --> 00:39:33,727
Speaker 3: that something that you'd look at and go, Jessee, I

794
00:39:33,847 --> 00:39:37,047
Speaker 3: wear that kind of you know what I mean? I

795
00:39:37,047 --> 00:39:40,007
Speaker 3: don't want to look generic. No, I do want to

796
00:39:40,047 --> 00:39:42,367
Speaker 3: look I.

797
00:39:42,367 --> 00:39:45,487
Speaker 1: Want to look Who's going to say unassuming? But that's

798
00:39:45,487 --> 00:39:46,607
Speaker 1: not an emotion.

799
00:39:46,967 --> 00:39:51,407
Speaker 3: No, Like I don't want to be wearing the latest.

800
00:39:51,447 --> 00:39:54,247
Speaker 3: I have no desire to be wearing the shoes everyone's wearing,

801
00:39:54,967 --> 00:39:58,567
Speaker 3: or to have the latest like I don't know thinging

802
00:39:58,727 --> 00:40:01,207
Speaker 3: in Zara. That's really and it's not not classic.

803
00:40:02,167 --> 00:40:04,167
Speaker 1: Your word isn't classic. I mean that would be a

804
00:40:04,167 --> 00:40:06,967
Speaker 1: practical word, but it's not classic. It's what did you say?

805
00:40:07,047 --> 00:40:08,127
Speaker 1: The word was plain?

806
00:40:08,327 --> 00:40:09,887
Speaker 3: Simple, like just simple.

807
00:40:10,047 --> 00:40:13,167
Speaker 1: Basically that's not an emotion, Holly.

808
00:40:13,607 --> 00:40:15,567
Speaker 3: I think it's confident. I think that I just want

809
00:40:15,567 --> 00:40:16,487
Speaker 3: to feel like myself.

810
00:40:16,687 --> 00:40:18,127
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, emotional.

811
00:40:18,167 --> 00:40:20,687
Speaker 3: I don't want to feel like I'm dressing. I get

812
00:40:20,767 --> 00:40:25,407
Speaker 3: that comfort cool, yeah, which we've changed to effortless.

813
00:40:24,847 --> 00:40:28,927
Speaker 2: Effortless and confident. I like that. That sounds good. Okay.

814
00:40:29,127 --> 00:40:32,847
Speaker 2: My practical word is easy. Has to be easy, like

815
00:40:32,927 --> 00:40:34,647
Speaker 2: I get dressed. Don't want to have a fucking clock

816
00:40:34,687 --> 00:40:37,647
Speaker 2: in the morning. It has to be easy, put it on,

817
00:40:37,927 --> 00:40:39,007
Speaker 2: throw it on, yeah done.

818
00:40:39,487 --> 00:40:41,887
Speaker 1: Yeah, because yours wouldn't be comfortable because you're always in heels,

819
00:40:41,927 --> 00:40:44,767
Speaker 1: whereas mine wouldn't be easy because I find that's so sad.

820
00:40:44,887 --> 00:40:47,847
Speaker 2: Yeah, it has to be for me easy and my

821
00:40:48,087 --> 00:40:50,487
Speaker 2: aspirational world is classy.

822
00:40:51,327 --> 00:40:54,447
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's why she was Jean's am.

823
00:40:54,447 --> 00:40:58,447
Speaker 2: I am I allowed that one. I want to look classy.

824
00:40:59,247 --> 00:41:00,727
Speaker 3: She never looks slutty.

825
00:41:00,967 --> 00:41:01,567
Speaker 2: I'd like to.

826
00:41:03,927 --> 00:41:06,847
Speaker 1: I wish you could see my face that I'm not

827
00:41:06,927 --> 00:41:07,967
Speaker 1: dissing you in any way.

828
00:41:08,207 --> 00:41:10,527
Speaker 2: I don't know that you're my stylist.

829
00:41:10,607 --> 00:41:13,047
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's it's interesting that that's what

830
00:41:13,047 --> 00:41:13,927
Speaker 1: you're aspiring to.

831
00:41:14,607 --> 00:41:18,047
Speaker 2: Aspiring to mean classic, I mean like the kind of

832
00:41:18,087 --> 00:41:19,967
Speaker 2: clothes that I look at and I go, I love

833
00:41:20,087 --> 00:41:23,447
Speaker 2: that is people who wear very classic, maybe classic, but

834
00:41:23,567 --> 00:41:27,087
Speaker 2: like an effort less good word, like a silk shirt

835
00:41:27,127 --> 00:41:32,207
Speaker 2: and a well. I like classy, like sophisticated.

836
00:41:33,727 --> 00:41:36,927
Speaker 1: I'm going to say modern classy, because classy to me

837
00:41:37,127 --> 00:41:37,847
Speaker 1: might feel.

838
00:41:37,607 --> 00:41:39,007
Speaker 3: A bit like a pencil skirt.

839
00:41:39,127 --> 00:41:39,367
Speaker 2: Yeah.

840
00:41:39,527 --> 00:41:42,207
Speaker 1: Like fancy you're rich, like you're not that, Like you

841
00:41:42,207 --> 00:41:43,047
Speaker 1: don't want that book?

842
00:41:43,087 --> 00:41:43,487
Speaker 2: I don't want.

843
00:41:43,487 --> 00:41:45,847
Speaker 1: You're not fancy you're rich? What about elevated?

844
00:41:46,247 --> 00:41:49,047
Speaker 3: Elevated? I think that could elevated, I do.

845
00:41:49,167 --> 00:41:51,047
Speaker 2: I always think I would like quiet luxury if I

846
00:41:51,047 --> 00:41:53,887
Speaker 2: could afford. What's your my emotional word? I don't know.

847
00:41:53,887 --> 00:41:56,567
Speaker 2: You have to help me with that. What's my emotional word?

848
00:41:56,967 --> 00:41:59,247
Speaker 2: The things I like wearing the most, that I feel

849
00:41:59,247 --> 00:42:02,607
Speaker 2: the most mean emotional, blue.

850
00:42:02,807 --> 00:42:04,087
Speaker 1: Exactly.

851
00:42:05,447 --> 00:42:11,127
Speaker 3: Emotional. I don't know, I do not really, I do

852
00:42:11,287 --> 00:42:15,447
Speaker 3: really like it. I actually, yes, I went to her

853
00:42:15,447 --> 00:42:18,167
Speaker 3: thing because I couldn't think of any words. So playful.

854
00:42:20,247 --> 00:42:21,487
Speaker 3: I'm just gonna throw words.

855
00:42:21,247 --> 00:42:22,807
Speaker 1: But these emotional words are just words.

856
00:42:22,847 --> 00:42:26,327
Speaker 3: These are just all the words, okay, soft, romantic, sensual,

857
00:42:26,727 --> 00:42:37,487
Speaker 3: not holly, demure, no, no floral, no hard, edgy, sexy, tough, minimal, sculptural, neutral, polished, graphic,

858
00:42:38,047 --> 00:42:40,127
Speaker 3: elaborate what I need some emotional.

859
00:42:40,327 --> 00:42:42,047
Speaker 2: This is the thing about people who can speak fashion

860
00:42:42,087 --> 00:42:44,007
Speaker 2: and people who can't write, is that most of us

861
00:42:44,047 --> 00:42:46,567
Speaker 2: know I'm not obviously a fashion person.

862
00:42:46,407 --> 00:42:47,007
Speaker 3: Like me is.

863
00:42:47,287 --> 00:42:49,087
Speaker 2: But there's like when you look at a pair of genes,

864
00:42:49,127 --> 00:42:51,487
Speaker 2: you instinctively know I would wear those, or I wouldn't

865
00:42:51,487 --> 00:42:53,367
Speaker 2: wear those. You know what I mean and like, but

866
00:42:53,407 --> 00:42:54,967
Speaker 2: it's hard to put the words around.

867
00:42:55,287 --> 00:42:58,047
Speaker 1: I actually think that for you, the word is classy,

868
00:42:58,367 --> 00:43:01,167
Speaker 1: even though you know that idea of classy isn't really

869
00:43:01,167 --> 00:43:03,567
Speaker 1: an emotion, but I think for you it is. It's

870
00:43:03,607 --> 00:43:05,927
Speaker 1: like they say fat isn't a feeling, but every woman

871
00:43:06,007 --> 00:43:09,247
Speaker 1: knows that it is, and so I think for you,

872
00:43:09,327 --> 00:43:12,927
Speaker 1: the emotional word is classy because you want to feel classy.

873
00:43:13,407 --> 00:43:16,927
Speaker 1: I'm going to look at the aspirational word is classic

874
00:43:17,287 --> 00:43:20,487
Speaker 1: for you, but modern classic, And the practical word is

875
00:43:20,527 --> 00:43:23,247
Speaker 1: easy easy Jesse. Where did we get stuck with you,

876
00:43:23,287 --> 00:43:26,127
Speaker 1: we couldn't find your third word, which is your emotional word.

877
00:43:26,487 --> 00:43:27,847
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have self assured.

878
00:43:28,487 --> 00:43:30,207
Speaker 2: Yeah, confident, I think is good.

879
00:43:30,327 --> 00:43:34,687
Speaker 3: The days I feel the best are when I think

880
00:43:34,927 --> 00:43:37,567
Speaker 3: I have something on. This sounds weird because I don't

881
00:43:37,567 --> 00:43:39,607
Speaker 3: really care about clothes, but I like going to the

882
00:43:39,607 --> 00:43:41,287
Speaker 3: office and being like, I know no one else is

883
00:43:41,327 --> 00:43:44,407
Speaker 3: going to have this on. I feel really like myself

884
00:43:44,407 --> 00:43:44,647
Speaker 3: in this.

885
00:43:44,927 --> 00:43:47,687
Speaker 1: Yeah, what about distinctive isn't right because you do. It's

886
00:43:47,687 --> 00:43:49,407
Speaker 1: not like you want to look different to everybody else.

887
00:43:49,847 --> 00:43:52,967
Speaker 1: You just want to look like yourself.

888
00:43:53,407 --> 00:43:55,607
Speaker 3: But I don't know who I am. Oh, this is

889
00:43:55,687 --> 00:43:57,327
Speaker 3: so deep problem.

890
00:43:57,807 --> 00:44:00,847
Speaker 2: It's getting hard. Yeah, because confident, as it would also

891
00:44:00,887 --> 00:44:03,367
Speaker 2: probably be one of my aspirational words. It's like I

892
00:44:03,407 --> 00:44:05,807
Speaker 2: want to look like I know what I'm doing. And

893
00:44:05,847 --> 00:44:07,807
Speaker 2: sometimes you know when you see yourself on a video

894
00:44:08,127 --> 00:44:10,887
Speaker 2: and like you're sitting across from somebody who's really polished

895
00:44:10,927 --> 00:44:12,447
Speaker 2: and stuff, and you go, oh my god, I look

896
00:44:12,487 --> 00:44:14,527
Speaker 2: like the world's oldest work experience kid.

897
00:44:15,007 --> 00:44:18,047
Speaker 3: Yeah. The days I feel the worst are when I

898
00:44:18,127 --> 00:44:23,447
Speaker 3: come in and I feel messy, I feel crinkled. I

899
00:44:23,527 --> 00:44:26,367
Speaker 3: feel like I threw this together at the last minute

900
00:44:26,407 --> 00:44:29,767
Speaker 3: and it doesn't work. Yeah, it's just not consistent with

901
00:44:29,807 --> 00:44:32,247
Speaker 3: who I want to be today. I don't feel like

902
00:44:32,367 --> 00:44:34,007
Speaker 3: I look elevated and not.

903
00:44:34,207 --> 00:44:37,367
Speaker 1: What's interesting about your fashion is that, like I think

904
00:44:37,407 --> 00:44:39,007
Speaker 1: I know it, and then you'll come in like you

905
00:44:39,047 --> 00:44:42,527
Speaker 1: did last week wearing an amazing two piece from Witchery

906
00:44:42,847 --> 00:44:44,927
Speaker 1: that looks stunning. You never look bad like you had

907
00:44:44,927 --> 00:44:48,167
Speaker 1: on like this brown skirt with a matching sort of

908
00:44:48,207 --> 00:44:50,687
Speaker 1: cropped shirt and a belt, and it was unlike anything

909
00:44:50,687 --> 00:44:53,327
Speaker 1: I'd ever seen before, and it was unlike anything I'd

910
00:44:53,327 --> 00:44:57,007
Speaker 1: ever think of you wearing. But you seemed kind of

911
00:44:57,207 --> 00:44:58,607
Speaker 1: comfortable in it and confident.

912
00:44:58,927 --> 00:45:01,367
Speaker 3: And I suppose this is actually this is what she says,

913
00:45:01,927 --> 00:45:05,487
Speaker 3: that these words are ever changing, and I'm finding that

914
00:45:06,447 --> 00:45:09,167
Speaker 3: in this period of my life it's very different. Like definitely,

915
00:45:09,247 --> 00:45:12,167
Speaker 3: in my early twenties, feminine or something would have come

916
00:45:12,207 --> 00:45:14,167
Speaker 3: out right. There would have been something where I felt

917
00:45:14,167 --> 00:45:16,447
Speaker 3: more sculpted, or I had to have a particular neckline

918
00:45:16,527 --> 00:45:18,647
Speaker 3: or whatever. I feel very diff I.

919
00:45:18,607 --> 00:45:22,687
Speaker 1: Know what the word is for you, possibly emotionally independent,

920
00:45:23,767 --> 00:45:27,127
Speaker 1: because you're not trendy. You don't want to be trendy.

921
00:45:27,727 --> 00:45:30,047
Speaker 1: You just want to look like yourself and how you

922
00:45:30,287 --> 00:45:32,567
Speaker 1: feel on any day might change. It might be one

923
00:45:32,647 --> 00:45:35,287
Speaker 1: day leggings and another day it might be this two

924
00:45:35,327 --> 00:45:38,447
Speaker 1: piece with a belt. But that's you, Holly and I

925
00:45:38,447 --> 00:45:41,447
Speaker 1: are much more. I mean, I'm obviously the biggest trendslot. Yeah,

926
00:45:41,567 --> 00:45:45,247
Speaker 1: Holly likes a version of a trend, but she's always

927
00:45:45,407 --> 00:45:51,927
Speaker 1: very late to it, and you are willfully. It's not

928
00:45:52,007 --> 00:45:55,687
Speaker 1: like I'm going to wear something really crazy. You're just independent.

929
00:45:55,767 --> 00:45:57,727
Speaker 1: You won't be told. And if I ever because I'm like,

930
00:45:57,767 --> 00:45:59,967
Speaker 1: I think Jesse should wear this. And when I've ever

931
00:46:00,007 --> 00:46:02,767
Speaker 1: tried to like give your clothes or whatever, you won't

932
00:46:02,767 --> 00:46:04,727
Speaker 1: have a bar of it because it's someone else's idea

933
00:46:04,807 --> 00:46:04,967
Speaker 1: of you.

934
00:46:05,767 --> 00:46:08,367
Speaker 3: Do you think that your words have changed over time?

935
00:46:08,967 --> 00:46:12,367
Speaker 1: No? Really, Like in my magazine days, I don't think

936
00:46:12,407 --> 00:46:12,727
Speaker 1: I would have.

937
00:46:12,887 --> 00:46:15,287
Speaker 3: Remember when you were trying to dress like a boss,

938
00:46:15,327 --> 00:46:16,087
Speaker 3: like a little while ago.

939
00:46:16,127 --> 00:46:18,407
Speaker 1: Oh god, I had a very weird thing that happened

940
00:46:18,407 --> 00:46:21,167
Speaker 1: for about a year. It's actually Katy's fault. I started

941
00:46:21,247 --> 00:46:25,047
Speaker 1: dressing like her character Evelyn on Strife in suits.

942
00:46:25,367 --> 00:46:26,887
Speaker 3: You know what it was. You were trying to dress

943
00:46:26,927 --> 00:46:29,047
Speaker 3: like someone who took themselves seriously for a minute, and

944
00:46:29,047 --> 00:46:30,167
Speaker 3: then you were like, wait, I don't.

945
00:46:30,327 --> 00:46:31,967
Speaker 1: I wanted to do a full version of me, but

946
00:46:32,007 --> 00:46:32,607
Speaker 1: it just wasn't me.

947
00:46:32,727 --> 00:46:34,767
Speaker 2: But also that was true to your I think your

948
00:46:34,767 --> 00:46:36,527
Speaker 2: words are spot on, and it's not the surprise that

949
00:46:36,567 --> 00:46:40,047
Speaker 2: you're the person who's most clothes focused about that because

950
00:46:40,287 --> 00:46:42,007
Speaker 2: those things were bringing your joy at the time, but

951
00:46:42,047 --> 00:46:44,167
Speaker 2: then they stopped. And when things stopped giving you joy,

952
00:46:44,247 --> 00:46:47,767
Speaker 2: cond dead, which I very much respect. Whereas I'll be like, oh,

953
00:46:47,807 --> 00:46:49,687
Speaker 2: I used to like wearing that thing. Better.

954
00:46:49,727 --> 00:46:52,407
Speaker 1: Still, my practical word, apart from comfort would probably be

955
00:46:52,407 --> 00:46:57,887
Speaker 1: wetex or sponge because I'm just so suggestible. I'm so suggestible,

956
00:46:57,927 --> 00:47:00,167
Speaker 1: Like I'll see Asher wearing something and I go, oh,

957
00:47:00,167 --> 00:47:01,847
Speaker 1: I'm going to dress like Asher. And then I'll see

958
00:47:02,127 --> 00:47:03,887
Speaker 1: Copenhagen fashion Week and I'm like, oh, I'm going to

959
00:47:04,007 --> 00:47:06,767
Speaker 1: dress like those scandy girls. I'm very porous.

960
00:47:07,087 --> 00:47:09,727
Speaker 2: So what's the useful part of this conversation. You're supposed

961
00:47:09,767 --> 00:47:11,647
Speaker 2: to find you three words, and then it's supposed to

962
00:47:11,647 --> 00:47:14,127
Speaker 2: help you what decide what you're going to buy. So

963
00:47:14,487 --> 00:47:17,007
Speaker 2: a bit of advice which I quite liked. The first

964
00:47:17,287 --> 00:47:19,887
Speaker 2: was that she said, if you're having trouble with your words,

965
00:47:20,607 --> 00:47:23,487
Speaker 2: have a chat to some friends or some family or

966
00:47:23,487 --> 00:47:25,327
Speaker 2: your partner, which made me laugh because Luca would be like,

967
00:47:25,367 --> 00:47:28,167
Speaker 2: I don't want to talk about this, and she said,

968
00:47:28,207 --> 00:47:30,647
Speaker 2: don't get offended, which I felt like was for me

969
00:47:30,687 --> 00:47:32,247
Speaker 2: because I would say how do I dress? And me

970
00:47:32,247 --> 00:47:35,407
Speaker 2: would be like ugly stupid.

971
00:47:35,487 --> 00:47:38,447
Speaker 3: It might be like, they're not criticals. I'm looking for today.

972
00:47:38,487 --> 00:47:39,847
Speaker 3: So you meant to do that, and then you're meant

973
00:47:39,847 --> 00:47:41,847
Speaker 3: to write what that word means to you because our

974
00:47:41,887 --> 00:47:44,407
Speaker 3: definitions are different, as mey or and I said, cool,

975
00:47:44,807 --> 00:47:46,527
Speaker 3: they mean different things to us. So we've got to

976
00:47:46,527 --> 00:47:48,767
Speaker 3: really flesh it out. And the third thing is if

977
00:47:48,807 --> 00:47:51,167
Speaker 3: you've got Pinterest or something, they say, make a board.

978
00:47:51,847 --> 00:47:54,967
Speaker 3: You'll see consistent things come through, Like I'm not big

979
00:47:55,007 --> 00:47:58,407
Speaker 3: on color, like I quite like a monochromatic. Blacks and

980
00:47:58,447 --> 00:48:01,007
Speaker 3: whites and bright things just don't work for me. And

981
00:48:01,087 --> 00:48:03,727
Speaker 3: so she said to do that, and that will help

982
00:48:03,807 --> 00:48:07,047
Speaker 3: you with your wardrobe, and like going out and deciding.

983
00:48:06,727 --> 00:48:09,087
Speaker 1: Another way to get those first two words. The practical

984
00:48:09,087 --> 00:48:12,327
Speaker 1: word is pull out all the things that you wear

985
00:48:12,367 --> 00:48:14,767
Speaker 1: the most. Yes, stay in your wardrobe, the ten percent

986
00:48:14,807 --> 00:48:16,847
Speaker 1: of your wardrobe that you wear ninety percent of the time,

987
00:48:17,167 --> 00:48:18,967
Speaker 1: and look at what it all has in common. Maybe

988
00:48:19,007 --> 00:48:21,247
Speaker 1: that word is black. Maybe that word is jenes. Maybe

989
00:48:21,247 --> 00:48:23,767
Speaker 1: that word is comfort, maybe that word is sexy. You've

990
00:48:23,807 --> 00:48:26,287
Speaker 1: got to find what the things that you wear all

991
00:48:26,327 --> 00:48:30,327
Speaker 1: the time have in common. The aspirational word is who

992
00:48:30,447 --> 00:48:32,607
Speaker 1: do you want to dress? Like? Like who would you

993
00:48:32,687 --> 00:48:34,687
Speaker 1: love to be? Who do you like? Follow on Pinterest

994
00:48:34,767 --> 00:48:39,047
Speaker 1: and whatever? And then for the emotion is thinking about

995
00:48:39,487 --> 00:48:42,887
Speaker 1: when you're wearing something, and we all know that feeling

996
00:48:42,927 --> 00:48:44,887
Speaker 1: where you just go, I feel.

997
00:48:44,647 --> 00:48:46,767
Speaker 3: Right, I feel like myself today. Do you have a

998
00:48:46,767 --> 00:48:50,167
Speaker 3: style like on like one person You've always said, carry Bradshaw?

999
00:48:50,247 --> 00:48:52,127
Speaker 3: But like, is there anyone else, like a real person

1000
00:48:52,167 --> 00:48:52,807
Speaker 3: who you look to?

1001
00:48:53,127 --> 00:48:56,647
Speaker 1: It's the suggestible thing because I'm always looking for different people,

1002
00:48:56,767 --> 00:49:00,847
Speaker 1: so I'll like carries Bradshaw style. For a while, I

1003
00:49:00,887 --> 00:49:04,327
Speaker 1: reminded myself of her style when I started going too

1004
00:49:04,367 --> 00:49:06,927
Speaker 1: far down the suit route and I got a bit sad.

1005
00:49:07,007 --> 00:49:08,847
Speaker 1: And then I was like, oh, I remember wearing prints

1006
00:49:08,847 --> 00:49:11,047
Speaker 1: and miss things actually gives me a lot of joy.

1007
00:49:11,527 --> 00:49:14,007
Speaker 1: So the suits weren't giving me joy. I'd sort of

1008
00:49:14,007 --> 00:49:17,207
Speaker 1: moved back. But now there's no particular designer, there's no

1009
00:49:17,247 --> 00:49:20,367
Speaker 1: particular celebrity that I'm always like, I want to dress

1010
00:49:20,367 --> 00:49:21,207
Speaker 1: how about you? Holly?

1011
00:49:21,567 --> 00:49:24,527
Speaker 2: My complete style crush. And the only reason why I

1012
00:49:24,567 --> 00:49:27,967
Speaker 2: watched this terrible show is Sylvie and Emily in Paris.

1013
00:49:28,167 --> 00:49:29,967
Speaker 3: Have you ever seen that?

1014
00:49:30,407 --> 00:49:32,447
Speaker 2: But I can't dress like her because she's like a

1015
00:49:32,607 --> 00:49:35,687
Speaker 2: teeny little stick person, but like she is the older

1016
00:49:35,727 --> 00:49:39,647
Speaker 2: person in Emily woman. She's a mid life French woman

1017
00:49:39,687 --> 00:49:43,287
Speaker 2: and she's very sexy, very sexy, got lots of like

1018
00:49:43,567 --> 00:49:46,407
Speaker 2: silk shirts and lots of very like. I love and

1019
00:49:46,527 --> 00:49:50,247
Speaker 2: admire people who can wear very simple things and make

1020
00:49:50,287 --> 00:49:50,967
Speaker 2: them look amazing.

1021
00:49:51,127 --> 00:49:54,407
Speaker 1: Rich women would be rich women slightly.

1022
00:49:54,167 --> 00:49:57,247
Speaker 2: Undone like hair, which is easy for me.

1023
00:49:57,367 --> 00:49:58,367
Speaker 3: Your feeling is French.

1024
00:49:58,487 --> 00:50:00,887
Speaker 1: No, your aspirational word is French.

1025
00:50:01,087 --> 00:50:02,047
Speaker 2: French. There you go.

1026
00:50:02,207 --> 00:50:03,007
Speaker 1: And I wish I was.

1027
00:50:03,127 --> 00:50:05,527
Speaker 2: I wish I was that, but I'm not. But like

1028
00:50:05,687 --> 00:50:07,727
Speaker 2: vibes of that. I remember when it was the last

1029
00:50:07,727 --> 00:50:10,247
Speaker 2: season was on. I became obsessed with this gold silk

1030
00:50:10,287 --> 00:50:12,847
Speaker 2: shirt she wore, and I was messaging our fashion editor

1031
00:50:12,847 --> 00:50:15,167
Speaker 2: all the time, going and she's like, Babe, it's Gucci.

1032
00:50:16,287 --> 00:50:17,727
Speaker 1: Well that's not gonna.

1033
00:50:17,447 --> 00:50:19,327
Speaker 3: Happen, or she can't buy Gucci, but we should buy

1034
00:50:19,367 --> 00:50:24,367
Speaker 3: Hollya beret, oh yeah, and a bagette out louders. We

1035
00:50:24,407 --> 00:50:27,967
Speaker 3: did a subscriber episode about whether or not it's appropriate

1036
00:50:27,967 --> 00:50:29,927
Speaker 3: to buy your friend a sex toy, and look, I

1037
00:50:29,927 --> 00:50:33,207
Speaker 3: got very personal because spoiler that dilemma was written in

1038
00:50:33,247 --> 00:50:35,287
Speaker 3: by Maya, and yeah it was me that thought it

1039
00:50:35,327 --> 00:50:37,927
Speaker 3: was inappropriate. There were a bunch of responses by the

1040
00:50:37,927 --> 00:50:40,847
Speaker 3: out louders. Some said best gift ever, those things are

1041
00:50:40,847 --> 00:50:44,487
Speaker 3: bloody expensive. Others said it's a hard note from me,

1042
00:50:44,967 --> 00:50:47,847
Speaker 3: and another said, as long as it isn't pre loved,

1043
00:50:48,007 --> 00:50:49,367
Speaker 3: which I feel like Mayor.

1044
00:50:49,207 --> 00:50:51,567
Speaker 1: I imagine if I'm giving people use vibrated, I would

1045
00:50:51,647 --> 00:50:51,927
Speaker 1: put it.

1046
00:50:51,927 --> 00:50:52,687
Speaker 3: It's not beyond you.

1047
00:50:52,767 --> 00:50:55,247
Speaker 2: There was another dilemma in the episode two, so go

1048
00:50:55,367 --> 00:50:57,327
Speaker 2: and listen. The link is in our show notes for

1049
00:50:57,367 --> 00:50:59,807
Speaker 2: you to follow it. A big thank you to all

1050
00:50:59,847 --> 00:51:02,007
Speaker 2: of you out louders for listening to us on today's show.

1051
00:51:02,047 --> 00:51:04,327
Speaker 2: Please send us your three words about your fashion, and

1052
00:51:04,367 --> 00:51:07,527
Speaker 2: actually send us the three words you think that we

1053
00:51:07,567 --> 00:51:11,207
Speaker 2: should have because we're probably delusional and we will be

1054
00:51:11,287 --> 00:51:14,047
Speaker 2: back in your ears tomorrow. Thank you to our fabulous

1055
00:51:14,047 --> 00:51:15,487
Speaker 2: team for helping us put this show together.

1056
00:51:15,687 --> 00:51:17,807
Speaker 3: Bye bye, bye bye.

1057
00:51:18,287 --> 00:51:21,567
Speaker 1: Shout out to any Muma Mia subscribers listening if you

1058
00:51:21,687 --> 00:51:24,047
Speaker 1: love the show and want to support us as well.

1059
00:51:24,247 --> 00:51:26,767
Speaker 1: Subscribing to MoMA mia is the very best way to

1060
00:51:26,807 --> 00:51:29,207
Speaker 1: do so. There is a link in the episode description