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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mamma Mia podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters. This podcast was

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Speaker 1: recorded on It's close to midnight on a Wednesday evening

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Speaker 1: in early July two thousand and Japanese police are knocking

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Speaker 1: at the door of number four oh one at an

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Speaker 1: apartment complex in the seaside town of Abaratzibo, about an

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Speaker 1: hour and a half from Tokyo. The man leasing it

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Speaker 1: is rarely there and tonight neighbors can hear thumping and

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Speaker 1: banging coming from inside. When one of them knocked. The

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Speaker 1: lights on inside were swiftly turned off, so four policemen

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Speaker 1: are here to check it out. After several demands to

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Speaker 1: be let in, finally the door creaks open. Standing there

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Speaker 1: is a half naked man breathing heavily with beads of

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Speaker 1: sweat on his face. He's covered in dust and dirt.

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Speaker 1: Behind him, off us can see chips of what appears

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Speaker 1: to be concrete and a large linen bag with something

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Speaker 1: inside it. I'm retiling my bathroom, he tells them. They

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Speaker 1: ask to come in and see, but the man gets

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Speaker 1: agitated and refuses to let them in. They don't push

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Speaker 1: it he's obviously not an intruder, so they leave him

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Speaker 1: to it. What they don't realize is the sinister scene

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Speaker 1: they've just witnessed, because the half naked man is Joji Abara,

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Speaker 1: and pretty soon he's going to be charged with murder,

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Speaker 1: manslaughter and implicated in the horrific sexual assaults of as

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Speaker 1: many as four hundred women. I'm Jemma Bath and this

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Speaker 1: is True Crime Conversations among of mere podcast exploring the

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Speaker 1: world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who

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Speaker 1: know the most about them. Ridgeway from Australia and Lucy

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Speaker 1: Blackman from England touched down in the bright lights of

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Speaker 1: Japan eight years apart. Both went with a plan to

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Speaker 1: work for a few months in Tokyo's super exclusive nightclubs

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Speaker 1: as a hostess, earn a bunch of cash, fund their

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Speaker 1: travels and adventures around the world, and then return to

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Speaker 1: their lives in their respective countries and start building their futures.

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Speaker 1: They were both twenty one, beautiful and full of dreams.

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Speaker 1: It's a pretty normal post schooling trope leave and explore

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Speaker 1: the world before settling into a life of study and career.

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Speaker 1: For Karita in the eighties and Lucy in the two thousands,

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Speaker 1: Japan was sold to them as a safe place to go.

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Speaker 1: In fact, the hostessing world was sold to them as safe,

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Speaker 1: despite it being on the fringes of the lucrative sex industry.

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Speaker 1: But for these two women, it was anything but, because

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Speaker 1: they found themselves coming face to face with a sadistic

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Speaker 1: criminal mastermind who hid behind flashy cars and suits. While

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Speaker 1: they were two of hundreds of victims, they were the

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Speaker 1: only ones that we know about that also lost their lives.

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Speaker 1: Claire Campbell is the author of Tokyo Hostess. Inside the

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Speaker 1: shocking world of Tokyo nightclub hostessing, she explores the stories

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Speaker 1: of Careta and Lucy, the complicated Japanese sex industry, and

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Speaker 1: the serial rapist who sparked an international investigation. Claire joins us, now, Claire,

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Speaker 1: can you take me inside the lure of hostessing in Japan?

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Speaker 1: Why are young women, particularly Western women, drawn to this industry.

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Speaker 2: It was a fantastic opportunity for young women, or it

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Speaker 2: seemed to be at the time. It was a way

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Speaker 2: to go abroad, somewhere exotic, and to make lots of

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Speaker 2: money in a very what seemed a very easy and

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Speaker 2: a very safe way. And it was the message coming

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Speaker 2: from Tokyo at the time was it was safe, safe, safe,

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Speaker 2: and it wasn't a sexual transaction. They were just going

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Speaker 2: in the manner of it would have been the closest

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Speaker 2: analogy would be geisha girls to go and talk and

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Speaker 2: light men's cigarettes and give them a drink and just

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Speaker 2: chat to them and get paid a relatively large amount

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Speaker 2: of money. I mean, Lucy was being paid between twenty

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Speaker 2: and forty pounds an hour, and Lucy at the time

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Speaker 2: had a seven thousand pound credit card debt. So she

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Speaker 2: said to her sister, I'm just going to go out

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Speaker 2: there and I'm going to make as much money as

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Speaker 2: I can in a shorter time as I can.

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Speaker 1: I know you say that it's not the sex industry technically,

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Speaker 1: but it's kind of on the fringes. I've heard it

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Speaker 1: described as and when you dive into the actual sex

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Speaker 1: industry in Japan, it's called the water trade. If I'm

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Speaker 1: saying that right, that's right.

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Speaker 2: It is the water trade. But there's various degrees of

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Speaker 2: the water trade. So Lucy was and Careta were at

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Speaker 2: the very top, which is the girls in the clubs.

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Speaker 2: Then there's the cabaret clubs, and then underneath there's what

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Speaker 2: are called snack girls, and below that you're really getting

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Speaker 2: into like blowjob bars line, so that there are all these.

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Speaker 2: The Japanese have a very strange attitude towards sex. So

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Speaker 2: they love sex. They don't see anything wrong in sex,

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Speaker 2: but it has to be ordered and they have to

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Speaker 2: have rules about it, and they don't like people not

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Speaker 2: obeying the rules. So the bars that Lucy and Kreta

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Speaker 2: worked in, they wouldn't expect the girls to have sex,

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Speaker 2: and in fact, if the girls suggested it, they'd be

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Speaker 2: quite shocked, even though the other way round. Occasionally people

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Speaker 2: were paid for sex. But in the bars where Lucy

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Speaker 2: and Creata worked, not really, not really. I mean the

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Speaker 2: men would try, but that they would be quite shot

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Speaker 2: themselves and probably go run away if the girls agree

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Speaker 2: to it.

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Speaker 1: I think all of us have heard about, you know,

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Speaker 1: the vending machines with used women's underwear, but it goes

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Speaker 1: much further than that. You kind of explored erotic fish

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Speaker 1: women image class, right, take me in there. What are

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Speaker 1: some of the weirder things that the Japanese sex industry

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Speaker 1: can offer you?

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Speaker 2: That there are some really really weird, like going to

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Speaker 2: strange bars where people dress up. Cosplay is a big thing,

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Speaker 2: and the borders of pedophilia as well. They have images

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Speaker 2: of children but children in like weird costumes and people

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Speaker 2: can go and you can all dress up and people

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Speaker 2: pretend to have sex with fish. Having sex with fish

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Speaker 2: is a big thing. Having sex with octopi is also

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Speaker 2: a big thing. I mean, it seems very very weird

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Speaker 2: to us that it's bordering on sort of bestiality and

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Speaker 2: things that we just wouldn't go near.

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Speaker 1: But I guess it explains just how big business sex

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Speaker 1: is in Japan because it does go into all of

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Speaker 1: these different areas.

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Speaker 2: It does. It does. It's massively cleaned up since the

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Speaker 2: time when Lucy was there. But Rapongi, where Lucy was working,

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Speaker 2: was the wild wild West, as one girl who'd been

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Speaker 2: a hostessa described it to me afterwards, and she said

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Speaker 2: her sister worked there after Lucy's death, and it was

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Speaker 2: completely different because at this time it was largely unregulated.

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Speaker 2: The hostesses were largely unregulated. A lot were working on

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Speaker 2: working visas, which they weren't technically allowed to do. You

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Speaker 2: weren't allowed to either have a tourist visa or a

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Speaker 2: working visa to work in the clubs, so it was

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Speaker 2: all bordering on illegal anyway.

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Speaker 1: But did Japanese officials kind of know that was happening

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Speaker 1: in turn a blind eye? Or how did that work?

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Speaker 2: Did and turned a blind eye to it? Right? And

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Speaker 2: when Lucy went missing, her friend Louise went the embassy

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Speaker 2: that the consul was really shocked that it was going on.

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Speaker 2: He had no idea that girls gave up business cards.

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Speaker 2: The first thing you did when you went into the

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Speaker 2: hostess bar, when you met a man was to give

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Speaker 2: him your card. But nobody knew who you were with,

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Speaker 2: and there was no way of checking who you'd gone

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Speaker 2: off with, which is what of course Lucy did and

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Speaker 2: Careta had done before her.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because I want to back to hostessing. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's in a club setting, but part of being a

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Speaker 1: hostess was going on these dates outside of the club,

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Speaker 1: which was quite a regular thing to do, wasn't it.

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Speaker 1: Can you explain that concept?

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Speaker 2: Yes, it was called a dohan, which was technically a

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Speaker 2: paid date. So a man would pick you from what

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Speaker 2: was called a doggie box. There was a group of

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Speaker 2: girls all waiting to be chosen, and a man would

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Speaker 2: pick one girl and then if he came the next

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Speaker 2: night and he picked that girl again and kept wanting

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Speaker 2: to see her, he'd ask her on a dough hand

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Speaker 2: and a date and he'd take her. It would really

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Speaker 2: bizarre things. I mean quite often. These were middle aged

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Speaker 2: businessmen and they'd take the girls out to the golf

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Speaker 2: course or something, sometimes with their families, and the girls

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Speaker 2: would go on a date with them, or it could

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Speaker 2: be to dinner or to a bar. And if you

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Speaker 2: got you were expected to get at least four dough

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Speaker 2: hands a month. And if you had two dough hands

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Speaker 2: with the same man, he would become your customer. He

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Speaker 2: was your personal property after that, and girls got bonuses

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Speaker 2: if they had more than twelve dough hands a month,

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Speaker 2: and then you would get a cut of the money

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Speaker 2: when they were coming into the bar.

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Speaker 1: But what in it? So the men, they're not getting

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Speaker 1: sex out of this, No, no, so why would they

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Speaker 1: do this? Just take girls off.

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Speaker 2: It's all about a fantasy.

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Speaker 1: Really.

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Speaker 2: A dohan is a sort of fantasy date that you

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Speaker 2: pretend that instead of getting paid for it, this girl

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Speaker 2: is choosing to go out with you because she likes

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Speaker 2: you and because she just wants the pleasure of your company.

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Speaker 2: So you're being paid to flatter him, basically, but it's

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Speaker 2: quite servile. And what several of the hostesses said to

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Speaker 2: me that European men coming into the bars found it

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Speaker 2: all very embarrassing and they wouldn't have any part in it,

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Speaker 2: because if you were talking to if you were British

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Speaker 2: and you met a British girl, you'd be embarrassed if

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Speaker 2: she started following you to the loo and offering you

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Speaker 2: water to wash your hands afterwards, and it just wouldn't work.

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Speaker 2: So it's a fantasy date for these men. There's nothing

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Speaker 2: shameful about ex outside marriage in Japan, even though these

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Speaker 2: men weren't on the whole having sex with the girls,

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Speaker 2: But there isn't anything shameful about it. It's more shameful

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Speaker 2: not to be married. So you would be married, but

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Speaker 2: wives would have to tolerate all this sort of extracurricular

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Speaker 2: behavior that was going extracurricular well, because there was something

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Speaker 2: they'd do on the way home from work. I mean

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Speaker 2: to us, it's extraordinary. Yeah, the wives were tolerated. I

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Speaker 2: mean the idea you'd take your girlfriend out on the

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Speaker 2: golf course with your wife and your family. Sometimes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a different world. Isn't it.

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Speaker 2: It really really is.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about Karata creata Ridgeway. She's an Australian and

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Speaker 1: she found herself dipping in and out of the hostessing

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Speaker 1: industry in the late eighties early nineties. Can you tell

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Speaker 1: us about her? She grew up in perse What do

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Speaker 1: we know about her life?

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Speaker 2: Okay? So she grew up in Perth with her sister Sam,

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Speaker 2: and her sister Sam was teaching English. At one stage

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Speaker 2: they both worked as hostesses. Sam had worked in Sydney

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Speaker 2: at a hostess bar where she met her boyfriend Hideki,

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Speaker 2: a Japanese guy called Hideki Toyama, who was the head

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Speaker 2: waiter at her hostess bar in Sydney. And Careta was

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Speaker 2: her younger sister, and she had a boyfriend a liver

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Speaker 2: a Pudley and called Robert too. They Robert Finnegan, who

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Speaker 2: she'd met while backpacking in eighty eight, and then the

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Speaker 2: Careta went for the first time to Tokyo in late

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Speaker 2: eighty eight with her friend Linda, and she worked for

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Speaker 2: three months in a hostess bar to try and make money.

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Speaker 2: Then the following year she met up with Robert again

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Speaker 2: and they carried on traveling around the world. And then

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Speaker 2: Robert and Careta decided to settle in Sydney and they

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Speaker 2: bought somewhere to live in Clavelli and Sam went to

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Speaker 2: live with them. And then Kreta decided she was going

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Speaker 2: to go back to Tokyo to make some more money,

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Speaker 2: and she went back for one year, and it was

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Speaker 2: on the third time that she met Joji Bara and

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Speaker 2: she wasn't working in the same district as Lucy. She

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Speaker 2: was working at the Ayakogi Club which was in Ginza,

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Speaker 2: which was a much more upmarket area of Tokyo. And

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Speaker 2: her sister Sam and you can see from the pictures,

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Speaker 2: described kretas very beautiful. She said she was like a

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Speaker 2: cross between Kate Moss and Winola Ryder, and men just melted.

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Speaker 2: And when she went to the hostess bar to be hired,

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Speaker 2: the Manusan just agreed straight away on seeing Kreta for

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Speaker 2: her to come and work. So she'd had two successful

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Speaker 2: stints of hostessing in Tokyo before she went to work

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Speaker 2: at the bar where she met Joji.

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Speaker 1: And she she was doing these doughhunts, these dates with me.

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Speaker 2: She was she was and very successfully.

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Speaker 1: Tell us about the phone call that her sister received

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Speaker 1: from you know a mystery man claiming to know Careta.

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Speaker 1: It was February nineteen, nineteen two.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it was Valentine's Day in nineteen ninety two, and

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Speaker 2: the last time Sam saw her sister was the morning

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Speaker 2: of February the fourteenth, where she went off to work

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Speaker 2: at the Burlitz School to teach English, and Careta disappeared

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Speaker 2: to go off to work at the bar. And that

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Speaker 2: night Sam was meeting her boyfriend Hideki, and she stayed

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Speaker 2: over at Hidekie, so she didn't see She didn't expect

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Speaker 2: to see Creata until the next morning, but when she

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Speaker 2: got back to the friendship house where they both lived,

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Speaker 2: a friend who was sharing the house said that a

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Speaker 2: strange call had come in from a man calling himself

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Speaker 2: a Kiera and as she and he'd said that he'd

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Speaker 2: taken Careta out for the evening and they'd gone to

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Speaker 2: eat shellfish, but that Creta had been taken very ill

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Speaker 2: and he dropped her off to hospital. And Sam thought

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Speaker 2: this was very odd and who is this man? And

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Speaker 2: she didn't know where to go with it, and so

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Speaker 2: she was worried all night waiting for Creta to come home.

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Speaker 2: And then the following morning she got a call from

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Speaker 2: Hidashima Hospital to say that this man had dropped Kreta

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Speaker 2: at a hospital and that Creta was very very ill indeed,

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Speaker 2: and could she come straight away.

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Speaker 1: Or so ill that basically the whole family came over immediately.

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Speaker 2: Yes, well, well, Sam went first, not realizing how ill

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Speaker 2: her sister was, and she kept saying to Kreta, who

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Speaker 2: is Nishidah, Who is Nishidah? Who is this man that

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Speaker 2: ran the house? And she couldn't really speak to Kreta,

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Speaker 2: and Creta seemed at first to be falling asleep, and

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Speaker 2: then Sam said that she realized she was losing consciousness

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Speaker 2: and she was horrified and she called the staff and

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Speaker 2: then the staff said, we're very very concerned about her.

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Speaker 2: We think she might be dying. So Sam was horrified

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Speaker 2: and rang her parents in Australia and also Robert Finnegan,

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Speaker 2: who was starting in Sydney, and they both said that

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Speaker 2: they'd come straight away and come and to fly out.

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Speaker 1: What did the doctors say was wrong with her?

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Speaker 2: They couldn't work it out to begin with, but they

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Speaker 2: said that she had liver failure, but they couldn't work

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Speaker 2: out what it was from. And so at first they

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Speaker 2: thought she had hepatitis D, and then they changed the

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Speaker 2: diagnosis to hepatitis E, but it still didn't quite fit.

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Speaker 2: So they were very confused, and of course the only

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Speaker 2: information that they had was that they believed her to

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Speaker 2: have food poisoning, but that just didn't seem to fit

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Speaker 2: with anything. So Sam was getting terribly worried, and she

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Speaker 2: asked her day her boyfriend to try and find out

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Speaker 2: who this Nashidah was, because in the days while Coreta's

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Speaker 2: condition was worsening, he kept calling and kept asking after her,

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Speaker 2: and finally called and asked to speak to Kreta's mother, Annette,

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Speaker 2: who'd arrived by them. Anette spoke to him and they

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Speaker 2: would They agreed that they'd meet him at the airport

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Speaker 2: hotel the following week, but in the meantime, Careta's condition

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Speaker 2: worsened and worsened, until by I think it was the

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Speaker 2: nineteenth of February, the doctor said that they weren't They

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Speaker 2: did a pin prick test and they said that Creata

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Speaker 2: was brain deed and they asked them if they wanted

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Speaker 2: to turn off the life support machine. So they did really,

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Speaker 2: really terrible. I mean, you just can't imagine how the

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Speaker 2: family must have felt.

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Speaker 1: There was an important detail that the dad asked happen

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Speaker 1: to Creta's body before they did that. Can you tell

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Speaker 1: us about that?

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Speaker 2: Yes, And this was crucial not only to finding out

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Speaker 2: what happened to Kreta, but also finding out what happened

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Speaker 2: to Lucy. He asked for a liver biopsy to be taken,

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Speaker 2: although they didn't wait for the liver biopsy results in

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Speaker 2: the end because they were so overwhelmed by Creta's death.

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Speaker 2: And afterwards they said they regretted that they hadn't asked

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Speaker 2: for a post mortem, but that they agreed in the shock,

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Speaker 2: really the shock state that they were in, for her

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Speaker 2: body to be cremated the following day.

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Speaker 1: And the parents actually did end up going through with

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Speaker 1: that meeting, didn't they after her death?

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Speaker 2: They did on the Sunday evening at they met him

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Speaker 2: at the airport hotel and the mother, Annette Ridgeway, when

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Speaker 2: she saw him, was really shocked because she thought Creta

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Speaker 2: couldn't possibly be interested in this middle aged man. And

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Speaker 2: he bought a diamond necklace and a ring and said

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Speaker 2: that he'd really loved Kreta and that he would have

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Speaker 2: loved to spend more time with her, and they were

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00:19:08,262 --> 00:19:12,382
Speaker 2: sort of horrified by this man. And Annette said she

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Speaker 2: just kept thinking she couldn't believe Kreta would ever have

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Speaker 2: had anything to do with him.

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Speaker 1: Did the police help? Like what happened from here?

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Speaker 2: That whole week before Coreta's death, Hideki and Sam were

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Speaker 2: trying to get the police to become interested, and they

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Speaker 2: just didn't. They just kept asking Sam if Kreta was

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Speaker 2: taking drugs, to which you know, Sam was really offended

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Speaker 2: and said no, that neither of them had ever taken

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Speaker 2: drugs and it was nothing to do with that. And

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Speaker 2: the police did nothing, and in fact, they started asking

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Speaker 2: them what visas they were on, and just investigating Kreta

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Speaker 2: and Sam rather than try to find out who Nishida was.

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Speaker 1: And so the family just decided to go back to

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Speaker 1: Australia grieve, yes, And that's where it kind of ended

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Speaker 1: for the time being for.

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Speaker 2: Them, and Sam left. She broke up with Hideki. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it must have been really difficult for her to be

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Speaker 2: involved with a Japanese man. After water it happened to

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Speaker 2: her sister, and so she also went home, although she

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Speaker 2: came back to Tokyo Two years later.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to true Crime Conversations with me Jemma Bass.

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Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Claire Campbell, author of the book Tokyo Hostess.

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Speaker 1: Up Next, Claire tells us the story of Lucy Blackman,

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Speaker 1: a British hostess in Tokyo who's murder by Jojiabara captured

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Speaker 1: intense media attention. So let's skip forward eighty ish years.

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Speaker 1: Lucy Blackman arrives in Tokyo. She's also twenty one, young,

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Speaker 1: looking to earn a lot of cash. Quickly, tell us

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Speaker 1: a bit about her because she arrived in the year

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Speaker 1: two thousand. She's British. What else do we know about her?

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Speaker 2: She'd done very well at school, she was very bright,

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Speaker 2: she was attractive, she had three A levels. She'd gone

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Speaker 2: to work in a bank. She chose not to go

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Speaker 2: to college, but she went to work in a bank,

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Speaker 2: and then she went to work British Airways, both jobs

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Speaker 2: with her friend Louise, the one that accompanied her out

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Speaker 2: to Tokyo. And Louise had an old sister called Emma

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Speaker 2: who'd done hostessing very successfully and made a lot of money.

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Speaker 2: So it was Louise who put the idea to Lucy

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Speaker 2: that they should go out, and so Lucy told her

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Speaker 2: father actually and her mother that they were going to

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Speaker 2: stay with an aunt of Louise's in Tokyo, which wasn't true,

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Speaker 2: and that there was they had work were waiting for

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Speaker 2: them when they got there, which also wasn't true. They

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Speaker 2: just arrived at Larisa Airport and looked in Tokyo classified

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00:21:49,502 --> 00:21:53,142
Speaker 2: for somewhere to live and a job, because they had

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Speaker 2: nowhere to live when they arrived.

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Speaker 1: So Lucy starts working at a club called Casablanca. You've

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Speaker 1: described it in your book as being Tachi, but one

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Speaker 1: of the better ones, so reasonably good place to work.

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Speaker 2: It was, although Lucy wasn't happy at first, if you

363
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Speaker 2: go by her diaries and what she told her sister,

364
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Speaker 2: she wasn't happy at first because she was quite competitive.

365
00:22:20,942 --> 00:22:24,342
Speaker 2: Another girl, another hostess, who met her, said that she

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Speaker 2: was quite guarded, whereas Louise was quite open. Lucy was

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Speaker 2: quite guarded and quite defensive, and she was very competitive,

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Speaker 2: and she felt personally that she wasn't doing as well

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Speaker 2: as Louise in that she felt, and I'm sure it

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Speaker 2: was just her perspective on it, because there was no

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Speaker 2: real evidence of that, but she felt that Louise was

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00:22:44,502 --> 00:22:48,782
Speaker 2: a far more successful hostess than she was, and Louise

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Speaker 2: was getting dough hands, and at the end of the

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Speaker 2: first month, I think that Lucy was ranked eleven out

375
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Speaker 2: of twenty and she'd been stood up on one doughhan

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Speaker 2: and she said, how bad you have to be as

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Speaker 2: a hostess to be stood up on a doe hand.

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Speaker 2: So she was very self critical.

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Speaker 1: So I guess that kind of explains why she was

380
00:23:08,302 --> 00:23:11,142
Speaker 1: excited to get dough heads, because she was going to

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Speaker 1: go up that leaderboard exactly.

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00:23:13,382 --> 00:23:16,982
Speaker 2: And she did. She did. She had Suddenly, after about

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00:23:17,022 --> 00:23:20,862
Speaker 2: a month in she started becoming more popular, and she

384
00:23:21,022 --> 00:23:25,822
Speaker 2: met an American boyfriend, a marine called Scott Fraser, and

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00:23:25,902 --> 00:23:28,502
Speaker 2: she was very happy. And in fact, the point at

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00:23:28,582 --> 00:23:34,622
Speaker 2: which she met Jojibara, she was doing really well. She

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Speaker 2: felt that she'd sort of she was now coping with

388
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Speaker 2: Tokyo and was managing very well. She was making quite

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Speaker 2: a lot of money, and she was popular and she

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Speaker 2: turned the corner.

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Speaker 1: Let's skip to July first, two thousand. She met a

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Speaker 1: customer for a dohan, which we now know was Joji.

393
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Speaker 1: But what, yes, what was Louise hearing about that date?

394
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Speaker 1: And that day she was getting a few phone calls

395
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Speaker 1: from her.

396
00:24:02,142 --> 00:24:06,942
Speaker 2: She was because that night Lucy and Scott Fraser, her boyfriend,

397
00:24:06,982 --> 00:24:09,702
Speaker 2: were meant to be going out in a pongee with

398
00:24:09,902 --> 00:24:13,422
Speaker 2: Louise on a night off from the Casa Blanca. They

399
00:24:13,422 --> 00:24:15,942
Speaker 2: were just going to go out and enjoy themselves and

400
00:24:15,982 --> 00:24:20,982
Speaker 2: it was all planned. But Louise left the guidin house

401
00:24:21,022 --> 00:24:25,182
Speaker 2: at about lunchtime and Lucy was getting dressed and she

402
00:24:25,302 --> 00:24:28,502
Speaker 2: was putting on a black dress and silver jewelry and handbag,

403
00:24:29,142 --> 00:24:31,622
Speaker 2: and Louise assumed she was going on a dough hand,

404
00:24:31,702 --> 00:24:34,102
Speaker 2: but Lucy didn't say very much about it because she

405
00:24:34,182 --> 00:24:37,502
Speaker 2: was quite competitive about it and didn't want Louise to

406
00:24:37,502 --> 00:24:39,702
Speaker 2: know who she was going out with. And she said

407
00:24:39,702 --> 00:24:42,102
Speaker 2: she was going on a doughhan, but she'd be back

408
00:24:42,142 --> 00:24:44,862
Speaker 2: in plenty of time and to go out in the evening.

409
00:24:45,022 --> 00:24:47,622
Speaker 2: I think they planned to meet about seven or seven thirty.

410
00:24:48,942 --> 00:24:51,742
Speaker 2: And the next thing that Louise heard was a call

411
00:24:51,982 --> 00:24:54,342
Speaker 2: from Lucy to say that she was with a very

412
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Speaker 2: nice man somewhere by the sea and that she'd be

413
00:24:59,502 --> 00:25:02,302
Speaker 2: on time, she wouldn't be late. And that was the

414
00:25:02,382 --> 00:25:04,902
Speaker 2: last call that Louise ever had from her.

415
00:25:05,582 --> 00:25:07,822
Speaker 1: So the only real clue she had was that she

416
00:25:07,942 --> 00:25:08,822
Speaker 1: was by the sea with.

417
00:25:08,822 --> 00:25:11,302
Speaker 2: A mele yes yes.

418
00:25:11,742 --> 00:25:15,342
Speaker 1: How quickly did Louise start to worry and raise the alarm?

419
00:25:16,822 --> 00:25:20,102
Speaker 2: It was the next morning. Well, at first they were

420
00:25:20,182 --> 00:25:22,622
Speaker 2: very alarmed when she didn't come home that night, but

421
00:25:22,662 --> 00:25:26,142
Speaker 2: they assumed that she'd just stayed on the dohan. And

422
00:25:26,182 --> 00:25:29,382
Speaker 2: then the following morning she just began to get more

423
00:25:29,422 --> 00:25:31,622
Speaker 2: and more worried with no word from Lucy, and she

424
00:25:31,742 --> 00:25:34,742
Speaker 2: kept thinking what should she do? But she was worried

425
00:25:34,822 --> 00:25:37,902
Speaker 2: because she wasn't on the right visa what she'd say

426
00:25:37,942 --> 00:25:41,702
Speaker 2: to the police, So she left it all day Sunday,

427
00:25:41,942 --> 00:25:44,142
Speaker 2: and then on the Monday she went to the police

428
00:25:44,702 --> 00:25:46,982
Speaker 2: and said that Lucy had gone on a date with

429
00:25:47,062 --> 00:25:51,022
Speaker 2: the Japanese businessman and hadn't come home, So she was

430
00:25:51,102 --> 00:25:54,662
Speaker 2: quite concerned, but she also went to see the console

431
00:25:54,862 --> 00:25:59,382
Speaker 2: in the afternoon Ian Ferguson, the British consul, and as

432
00:25:59,502 --> 00:26:02,702
Speaker 2: he was very alarmed when he heard what the girls

433
00:26:02,702 --> 00:26:06,302
Speaker 2: had been doing, and he told Louise to go back

434
00:26:06,342 --> 00:26:09,742
Speaker 2: to the police and tell them the truth. And as

435
00:26:09,822 --> 00:26:13,062
Speaker 2: Louise was leaving the embassy that afternoon, she got a

436
00:26:13,102 --> 00:26:18,502
Speaker 2: strange call from a man calling himself Akira Tagaki, because

437
00:26:18,542 --> 00:26:21,542
Speaker 2: Doji Bara was always using pseudonyms and.

438
00:26:21,542 --> 00:26:23,942
Speaker 1: Dakira is the same first name he was using.

439
00:26:24,182 --> 00:26:27,102
Speaker 2: Kira was saying the first name but a different surname.

440
00:26:27,782 --> 00:26:30,302
Speaker 2: And he said not to worry about Lucy, that she

441
00:26:30,382 --> 00:26:33,342
Speaker 2: was quite safe, but that she joined a cult, and

442
00:26:33,382 --> 00:26:36,342
Speaker 2: that Louise would never hear from her again, but that

443
00:26:36,422 --> 00:26:39,302
Speaker 2: she was quite happy, and not to worry about her.

444
00:26:40,102 --> 00:26:42,982
Speaker 2: So Louise straight away, you know, thought this is mad.

445
00:26:43,262 --> 00:26:45,742
Speaker 2: You know, I'm really worried. So she tried to keep

446
00:26:45,782 --> 00:26:48,382
Speaker 2: him talking on the telephone and to ask more questions,

447
00:26:48,902 --> 00:26:51,182
Speaker 2: and then when he rang off, she went straight back

448
00:26:51,222 --> 00:26:54,822
Speaker 2: into the embassy and told Ian Ferguson and Ian Ferguson

449
00:26:54,902 --> 00:26:58,542
Speaker 2: panic then, and he said, you must go straight to

450
00:26:58,542 --> 00:27:02,422
Speaker 2: the police and don't bother saying it's a Japanese businessman.

451
00:27:02,782 --> 00:27:06,942
Speaker 2: Just say that your friend has been abducted and tell

452
00:27:06,982 --> 00:27:10,062
Speaker 2: them the full story that you're working as hostesses and

453
00:27:10,062 --> 00:27:14,342
Speaker 2: what would happened. So that was what Louise did, and

454
00:27:14,822 --> 00:27:18,782
Speaker 2: she also called home at that point and told Paul

455
00:27:18,982 --> 00:27:23,942
Speaker 2: Lucy's mother Jane, what had happened, and Jane was terribly shocked.

456
00:27:23,982 --> 00:27:26,062
Speaker 2: In factually, I think she was sick when she got

457
00:27:26,142 --> 00:27:29,062
Speaker 2: the phone call to say because she'd just been packing

458
00:27:29,182 --> 00:27:32,222
Speaker 2: up a parcel to send out to Lucy when she

459
00:27:32,302 --> 00:27:34,822
Speaker 2: got the call from Louise to say that Lucy had

460
00:27:34,862 --> 00:27:37,822
Speaker 2: gone missing. So it must have been a terrible, terrible

461
00:27:37,862 --> 00:27:39,262
Speaker 2: shock to her because.

462
00:27:39,022 --> 00:27:41,502
Speaker 1: The family was never going to believe that she joined

463
00:27:41,502 --> 00:27:42,422
Speaker 1: a cult, were they?

464
00:27:43,222 --> 00:27:45,822
Speaker 2: No? No, I mean it was rubbish from the beginning.

465
00:27:46,022 --> 00:27:48,902
Speaker 2: I mean, it just shows you what a fantasist Joji

466
00:27:49,222 --> 00:27:52,342
Speaker 2: was really to think that any family would believe that.

467
00:27:53,182 --> 00:27:56,182
Speaker 1: It took a few days, quite a few days for

468
00:27:56,262 --> 00:27:59,502
Speaker 1: this story to blow up, but it did. It became

469
00:27:59,542 --> 00:28:04,342
Speaker 1: an international news story, thanks in part to Lucy's dad,

470
00:28:04,462 --> 00:28:06,902
Speaker 1: who just went right, We've got to get this story out.

471
00:28:07,262 --> 00:28:09,862
Speaker 1: He knew how to work the media because the police

472
00:28:10,102 --> 00:28:14,742
Speaker 1: were being as cooperative at that point. How big did

473
00:28:14,742 --> 00:28:15,462
Speaker 1: this story get?

474
00:28:16,622 --> 00:28:19,782
Speaker 2: It was? Tim told me afterwards that he realized when

475
00:28:19,822 --> 00:28:24,062
Speaker 2: he got to Narita Airport when he saw the numbers

476
00:28:24,102 --> 00:28:27,422
Speaker 2: of press, because what had happened was word had got

477
00:28:27,462 --> 00:28:30,982
Speaker 2: out that at first the British press thought that Lucy

478
00:28:31,062 --> 00:28:33,622
Speaker 2: was an air hostess, and then they got the full

479
00:28:33,662 --> 00:28:36,262
Speaker 2: story that she'd been working as a hostess in a

480
00:28:36,342 --> 00:28:39,182
Speaker 2: Japanese bar, which nobody had ever heard of at that

481
00:28:39,262 --> 00:28:42,622
Speaker 2: time in the UK. So the press went mad, particularly

482
00:28:42,702 --> 00:28:46,382
Speaker 2: the tabloids, and so there was a massive number of

483
00:28:46,462 --> 00:28:51,062
Speaker 2: press at Narisia Airport, all waiting to speak to Tim.

484
00:28:51,382 --> 00:28:54,342
Speaker 2: And he realized as he walked into the room, he said,

485
00:28:54,382 --> 00:28:56,982
Speaker 2: and saw the numbers of press there, that he could

486
00:28:57,062 --> 00:28:59,942
Speaker 2: work that to his advantage, that if there were that

487
00:29:00,102 --> 00:29:03,142
Speaker 2: number of press, they could all help find Bluesy. So

488
00:29:03,182 --> 00:29:06,422
Speaker 2: he decided to play it that way, and which he

489
00:29:06,462 --> 00:29:07,502
Speaker 2: did do brilliantly.

490
00:29:09,182 --> 00:29:11,942
Speaker 1: So we've got Tim and to Lucy's sister over in

491
00:29:12,062 --> 00:29:15,822
Speaker 1: Japan kind of leading the search. The police start to

492
00:29:15,902 --> 00:29:18,062
Speaker 1: actually get on board because of all of the press,

493
00:29:18,542 --> 00:29:22,142
Speaker 1: and it turns into quite a big operation. You know,

494
00:29:22,222 --> 00:29:25,782
Speaker 1: Lucy's family's putting up posters, they even set up an

495
00:29:25,822 --> 00:29:31,862
Speaker 1: information line. It got quite serious, didn't it quite extensive?

496
00:29:32,022 --> 00:29:32,462
Speaker 1: That search?

497
00:29:32,782 --> 00:29:35,182
Speaker 2: It did? It did, and they were getting a lot

498
00:29:35,222 --> 00:29:39,982
Speaker 2: of false information in as well. But the crucial information

499
00:29:40,142 --> 00:29:44,702
Speaker 2: that Sophie did get was some calls from former hostesses

500
00:29:45,222 --> 00:29:48,302
Speaker 2: who all came up with this similar story. There was

501
00:29:48,342 --> 00:29:51,222
Speaker 2: an Australian girl, there was a Canadian girl, and a

502
00:29:51,262 --> 00:29:54,942
Speaker 2: British girl who all claimed that they'd been taken to

503
00:29:55,302 --> 00:29:58,862
Speaker 2: an apartment by the sea and given something weird to drink,

504
00:29:59,782 --> 00:30:03,462
Speaker 2: and that they couldn't remember anything the next morning. And

505
00:30:03,702 --> 00:30:07,502
Speaker 2: one girl, the Canadian girl Donna, had clearly she was

506
00:30:07,622 --> 00:30:10,142
Speaker 2: clear that she'd been raped. But they all thought that

507
00:30:10,222 --> 00:30:14,342
Speaker 2: they been given GHB or something, that their drinks had

508
00:30:14,382 --> 00:30:18,742
Speaker 2: been spiked. And so these stories, when they put them

509
00:30:18,742 --> 00:30:23,222
Speaker 2: all together, seemed to be bringing this picture. Although Tim

510
00:30:23,302 --> 00:30:25,702
Speaker 2: said to me that he thought that the police, the

511
00:30:25,782 --> 00:30:29,142
Speaker 2: Japanese police, had been watching Joji for some time and

512
00:30:29,222 --> 00:30:31,502
Speaker 2: had had their eye on him, but hadn't done anything.

513
00:30:32,222 --> 00:30:34,502
Speaker 2: So we don't know really.

514
00:30:34,702 --> 00:30:36,622
Speaker 1: Why wouldn't they have done anything. They were just biding

515
00:30:36,622 --> 00:30:38,622
Speaker 1: their time for him to slip up.

516
00:30:39,102 --> 00:30:40,582
Speaker 2: Until they had evidence.

517
00:30:40,702 --> 00:30:43,822
Speaker 1: Right, Yes, well, they made an arrest in the October,

518
00:30:43,902 --> 00:30:46,822
Speaker 1: so she went missing quite a few months earlier she did.

519
00:30:47,142 --> 00:30:50,102
Speaker 1: They made an arrest, What do we know about how

520
00:30:50,142 --> 00:30:52,982
Speaker 1: they actually came to making that at rest. What evidence

521
00:30:53,062 --> 00:30:54,942
Speaker 1: led them to that? Was it these phone calls?

522
00:30:55,262 --> 00:30:58,982
Speaker 2: It was it was the phone calls because they began

523
00:30:59,182 --> 00:31:08,502
Speaker 2: to piece together information. And also they finally traced the mobiles,

524
00:31:08,782 --> 00:31:11,862
Speaker 2: because to begin with, Tim had been pressing them to

525
00:31:11,942 --> 00:31:17,582
Speaker 2: trace the mobile calls that the Louise had got, and

526
00:31:17,742 --> 00:31:19,622
Speaker 2: at first they kept saying they couldn't do it and

527
00:31:19,662 --> 00:31:21,862
Speaker 2: it was a matter of data privacy, they couldn't do

528
00:31:21,942 --> 00:31:25,982
Speaker 2: anything like that. And then Tim spoke to Tony Blair,

529
00:31:26,142 --> 00:31:29,782
Speaker 2: the Prime Minister at the time, and then suddenly Derry Irvin,

530
00:31:30,542 --> 00:31:34,022
Speaker 2: the Chancellor, was onto it and he spoke to Tim

531
00:31:34,182 --> 00:31:37,462
Speaker 2: and the next minute it was all sorted and they

532
00:31:37,462 --> 00:31:40,622
Speaker 2: could trace the calls, and that led them to Joji Abara.

533
00:31:41,542 --> 00:31:44,862
Speaker 1: So who is Joji Abara? From the outside, who was he?

534
00:31:45,422 --> 00:31:47,902
Speaker 2: Joji Barro? He was born in nineteen fifty two. He's

535
00:31:47,942 --> 00:31:52,102
Speaker 2: actually Korean and not Japanese at all, and he was

536
00:31:52,142 --> 00:31:55,822
Speaker 2: born to a Korean who'd made a lot of money

537
00:31:56,222 --> 00:32:01,902
Speaker 2: in pachinko parlors and also in property and of taxis,

538
00:32:02,022 --> 00:32:04,262
Speaker 2: I think, but he'd made a massive amount of money

539
00:32:04,542 --> 00:32:08,902
Speaker 2: during the boom in Japan. And Joji had a very

540
00:32:08,942 --> 00:32:12,342
Speaker 2: weird upbringing. Was brought up in this strange house which

541
00:32:12,422 --> 00:32:15,022
Speaker 2: I went to see in Tokyo called dn En Chofu,

542
00:32:15,982 --> 00:32:18,782
Speaker 2: and he lived there with a maid by himself as

543
00:32:18,822 --> 00:32:22,062
Speaker 2: a child for years. So he had a very very

544
00:32:22,102 --> 00:32:26,102
Speaker 2: weird upbringing. And he went to university and read politics

545
00:32:26,102 --> 00:32:29,822
Speaker 2: and law, and everybody who knew him from college at

546
00:32:29,862 --> 00:32:32,182
Speaker 2: the time said that he was a loner and that

547
00:32:32,262 --> 00:32:35,662
Speaker 2: he never had a girlfriend, and so he was all

548
00:32:35,742 --> 00:32:40,182
Speaker 2: together a very strange character. And when the police raided

549
00:32:40,822 --> 00:32:44,022
Speaker 2: the house at den En Chofu and also two of

550
00:32:44,062 --> 00:32:49,342
Speaker 2: his other properties, they found all these notebooks and about

551
00:32:49,462 --> 00:32:54,502
Speaker 2: four hundred videotapes, all of girls that he drugged or

552
00:32:54,582 --> 00:32:58,542
Speaker 2: raped and what he was doing to them. And clearly

553
00:32:58,622 --> 00:33:02,542
Speaker 2: the police then had a massive amount of evidence. And

554
00:33:02,582 --> 00:33:07,382
Speaker 2: the crucial thing was that amongst the videotapes they found

555
00:33:07,422 --> 00:33:11,262
Speaker 2: one of Careta, and they also found his name in

556
00:33:11,342 --> 00:33:14,942
Speaker 2: a notebook, and in the notebook it said Carreta Ridgeway

557
00:33:15,022 --> 00:33:16,502
Speaker 2: too much chloroform.

558
00:33:17,342 --> 00:33:19,902
Speaker 1: It took them a while to kind of connect the

559
00:33:19,942 --> 00:33:23,462
Speaker 1: dots there, though I didn't it in terms of Creata,

560
00:33:23,902 --> 00:33:25,982
Speaker 1: the fact that she died and that she was on

561
00:33:26,022 --> 00:33:26,582
Speaker 1: these tapes.

562
00:33:27,502 --> 00:33:29,262
Speaker 2: Sam picked up the story and was in touch with

563
00:33:29,342 --> 00:33:34,902
Speaker 2: Robert Finnegan, who was Carita's former fiancee, and they both

564
00:33:34,982 --> 00:33:37,942
Speaker 2: kept talking to another and saying, could this man be

565
00:33:38,142 --> 00:33:42,542
Speaker 2: anything to do with Creta's death? And Robert contacted the

566
00:33:42,622 --> 00:33:47,382
Speaker 2: Japanese authorities, so that brought up the name Kreta Ridgeway again,

567
00:33:47,982 --> 00:33:51,102
Speaker 2: and so when they found the notebooks and they found

568
00:33:51,142 --> 00:33:55,142
Speaker 2: the name Careta Ridgeway too much chloroform, they put everything

569
00:33:55,182 --> 00:34:02,102
Speaker 2: together and that led them to thinking that he'd killed Creata.

570
00:34:02,462 --> 00:34:06,502
Speaker 1: Next, we discuss a Bara's chilling notebook and disturbing videotapes,

571
00:34:06,822 --> 00:34:10,022
Speaker 1: which ultimately led police to connect him to Creta's murder.

572
00:34:14,742 --> 00:34:18,822
Speaker 1: Obviously we're focusing in on Lucy and Kreta, but there

573
00:34:18,862 --> 00:34:24,422
Speaker 1: were four hundred tapes, potentially four hundred women. What happened

574
00:34:24,422 --> 00:34:24,782
Speaker 1: to them?

575
00:34:25,582 --> 00:34:29,502
Speaker 2: Well, this is what really intrigues me, And you know,

576
00:34:29,582 --> 00:34:32,462
Speaker 2: I think there's another story there because a lot of

577
00:34:32,502 --> 00:34:36,822
Speaker 2: these women they don't know. The police tried to contact

578
00:34:36,862 --> 00:34:39,702
Speaker 2: those that they could trace, but there must be lots

579
00:34:39,742 --> 00:34:42,742
Speaker 2: of women who read the story and they must be

580
00:34:42,782 --> 00:34:45,782
Speaker 2: wondering was it then or what happened? Could he have

581
00:34:45,902 --> 00:34:49,302
Speaker 2: killed other people? And we don't know, I mean, we

582
00:34:50,022 --> 00:34:54,622
Speaker 2: just don't know, and it's really really horrible.

583
00:34:54,262 --> 00:34:57,862
Speaker 1: Idea not to go into too much graphic detail, but

584
00:34:57,902 --> 00:35:01,382
Speaker 1: the videos all kind of followed a similar pattern in

585
00:35:01,462 --> 00:35:06,742
Speaker 1: that he would videotape them being naked, their faces covered,

586
00:35:07,142 --> 00:35:10,462
Speaker 1: his face covered, and then him sexually assaulting them.

587
00:35:10,622 --> 00:35:14,662
Speaker 2: Right, he used to put on a mask and so

588
00:35:14,702 --> 00:35:17,582
Speaker 2: he would sort of prance about naked with this horrible

589
00:35:17,662 --> 00:35:21,342
Speaker 2: mask on. And in fact, on the tape of Careta,

590
00:35:21,862 --> 00:35:24,462
Speaker 2: they wouldn't show the whole tape to her mother because

591
00:35:24,462 --> 00:35:28,302
Speaker 2: obviously it would be too distressing. But she saw her

592
00:35:28,422 --> 00:35:33,142
Speaker 2: daughter like a doll like coming round from the chloroform

593
00:35:33,622 --> 00:35:36,502
Speaker 2: and tried to sit up and then just falling back again,

594
00:35:36,982 --> 00:35:42,022
Speaker 2: and he was just dancing around her. But Joji himself

595
00:35:42,022 --> 00:35:45,542
Speaker 2: said he couldn't do women who are conscious, and the

596
00:35:45,582 --> 00:35:47,982
Speaker 2: only way he had of having sex with these women

597
00:35:48,582 --> 00:35:52,502
Speaker 2: was to render them unconscious and then have sex with them.

598
00:35:53,182 --> 00:35:56,502
Speaker 2: And in the notebooks he clearly was you know, I

599
00:35:56,542 --> 00:36:00,582
Speaker 2: don't know what his diagnosis was, but you'd think he

600
00:36:00,662 --> 00:36:04,022
Speaker 2: must have been psychotic because he was saying, you know,

601
00:36:04,182 --> 00:36:07,782
Speaker 2: that he wanted he obviously wanted revenge on women for something,

602
00:36:08,622 --> 00:36:12,102
Speaker 2: and his ambition was to have sex with five hundred

603
00:36:12,102 --> 00:36:13,662
Speaker 2: women by the time he was fifty.

604
00:36:14,582 --> 00:36:16,542
Speaker 1: So we've got all of these tapes, they've obviously got

605
00:36:16,582 --> 00:36:19,902
Speaker 1: all of this evidence of the sexual assaults and the rapes.

606
00:36:20,662 --> 00:36:22,702
Speaker 1: Then they kind of link him to Kreta. They're able

607
00:36:22,782 --> 00:36:24,502
Speaker 1: to charge him with that but we still don't have

608
00:36:24,622 --> 00:36:28,222
Speaker 1: charges for Lucy. We don't know where Lucy is. But

609
00:36:28,342 --> 00:36:31,342
Speaker 1: there were as his name started to make the headlines,

610
00:36:31,422 --> 00:36:34,302
Speaker 1: a lot of stories that started to come out about him.

611
00:36:34,382 --> 00:36:35,902
Speaker 1: Can you tell us some of those? There was a

612
00:36:35,942 --> 00:36:40,822
Speaker 1: particularly haunting one in early July at one of his

613
00:36:40,902 --> 00:36:45,622
Speaker 1: seaside apartments involving him half naked, concrete, a dog.

614
00:36:47,142 --> 00:36:50,662
Speaker 2: Yes. People began to phone into the police and they

615
00:36:50,702 --> 00:36:55,742
Speaker 2: began to put these stories together. At first, the caretaker

616
00:36:55,822 --> 00:37:00,462
Speaker 2: reported that Joji had changed the locks without authorization because

617
00:37:00,462 --> 00:37:02,902
Speaker 2: he was meant to tell the caretaker when you change

618
00:37:02,942 --> 00:37:05,902
Speaker 2: the locks of one of his apartments at the Zushi

619
00:37:05,942 --> 00:37:10,782
Speaker 2: Marina the Blue Sea, and he hadn't asked permission. He

620
00:37:10,942 --> 00:37:14,942
Speaker 2: was also seen buying cement and a sort of hoe

621
00:37:15,102 --> 00:37:18,942
Speaker 2: or a shovel by somebody else. Another woman reported that

622
00:37:18,982 --> 00:37:22,662
Speaker 2: she'd seen a man matching Joji's description walking down a

623
00:37:22,702 --> 00:37:27,062
Speaker 2: beach with a tall, thin, blonde woman, and the blonde

624
00:37:27,062 --> 00:37:29,342
Speaker 2: woman didn't look very happy. They didn't look as though

625
00:37:29,342 --> 00:37:32,342
Speaker 2: if they were a couple, and Lucy was walking behind him.

626
00:37:32,942 --> 00:37:37,062
Speaker 2: And so all these stories put together led the police

627
00:37:38,742 --> 00:37:41,342
Speaker 2: to get more evidence against him.

628
00:37:41,982 --> 00:37:46,262
Speaker 1: So how did they end up linking him to Lucy,

629
00:37:46,382 --> 00:37:49,502
Speaker 1: did it take finding her body, which they did eventually.

630
00:37:50,342 --> 00:37:52,662
Speaker 2: They found her body eventually in the caves which they

631
00:37:52,742 --> 00:37:56,902
Speaker 2: had searched before. And then they went back when all

632
00:37:56,942 --> 00:38:00,102
Speaker 2: these stories started to come in and they found Lucy's

633
00:38:00,182 --> 00:38:03,862
Speaker 2: head entombed in this cave that I've been to, which

634
00:38:03,902 --> 00:38:07,222
Speaker 2: is really sort of bleak place down by the sea,

635
00:38:07,742 --> 00:38:09,382
Speaker 2: which is where he'd buried her.

636
00:38:09,462 --> 00:38:11,702
Speaker 1: And he'd he dismembered her.

637
00:38:12,102 --> 00:38:16,142
Speaker 2: It was hod Yes, he dismembered her. They also found

638
00:38:16,222 --> 00:38:20,542
Speaker 2: blonde hairs which they matched with DNA from Jane Blackman

639
00:38:20,622 --> 00:38:23,902
Speaker 2: and other members of the family, which couldn't prove conclusively

640
00:38:23,942 --> 00:38:27,502
Speaker 2: that it was Lucy's but very close. So they knew

641
00:38:27,582 --> 00:38:31,462
Speaker 2: then that he dismembered her body. They knew that she'd

642
00:38:31,462 --> 00:38:34,742
Speaker 2: been to the flat because they found a photo negative

643
00:38:35,102 --> 00:38:39,222
Speaker 2: which showed Lucy by looking out to see from the

644
00:38:39,302 --> 00:38:42,862
Speaker 2: window in his apartment in Zushi Marina, not not at

645
00:38:42,862 --> 00:38:47,182
Speaker 2: the Blue Sea apartment. So he'd obviously taken her from

646
00:38:47,262 --> 00:38:51,462
Speaker 2: the Zushi Marina to the Blue Sea apartment where he

647
00:38:51,542 --> 00:38:54,702
Speaker 2: must have dismembered her. So they had all this evidence,

648
00:38:54,782 --> 00:38:56,942
Speaker 2: but what they didn't have was a tape of Lucy,

649
00:38:57,502 --> 00:38:59,342
Speaker 2: and we don't know what happened to the tape. He

650
00:38:59,422 --> 00:39:01,782
Speaker 2: must have made a tape of Lucy, but we don't know.

651
00:39:01,822 --> 00:39:06,942
Speaker 2: He probably destroyed that because that was never found. So

652
00:39:07,142 --> 00:39:11,582
Speaker 2: they couldn't get him in the trial, which took six years.

653
00:39:11,982 --> 00:39:16,742
Speaker 2: But they couldn't get They couldn't convict him of Lucy's murder.

654
00:39:17,462 --> 00:39:21,582
Speaker 1: Only that he'd dismembered her, only that he dismembered her.

655
00:39:21,822 --> 00:39:24,502
Speaker 2: But what they could the reason they could convict him

656
00:39:24,622 --> 00:39:28,502
Speaker 2: of Creta's murder was all down to the liver biopsy

657
00:39:28,862 --> 00:39:33,422
Speaker 2: because Robert Finnegan, her fiance, a former Creta's former fiance,

658
00:39:33,982 --> 00:39:38,462
Speaker 2: remembered the liver biopsy, and the liver biopsy was found

659
00:39:38,622 --> 00:39:42,702
Speaker 2: and looked at, and when it was analyzed it showed chloroform,

660
00:39:43,182 --> 00:39:46,302
Speaker 2: So that proved conclusively. They'd got the tape, they've got

661
00:39:46,302 --> 00:39:49,702
Speaker 2: Creta's name, and now they've got the liver biopsy, which

662
00:39:49,782 --> 00:39:51,502
Speaker 2: proved that he'd given her chloroform.

663
00:39:51,902 --> 00:39:54,102
Speaker 1: It seems that he didn't mean to kill these women.

664
00:39:54,222 --> 00:39:56,382
Speaker 1: That he's motive is sexual assault.

665
00:39:56,782 --> 00:39:59,782
Speaker 2: He didn't in that sense. He wasn't a serial killer.

666
00:39:59,902 --> 00:40:03,022
Speaker 2: But it was just so gruesome and awful was the

667
00:40:03,102 --> 00:40:05,862
Speaker 2: fact that he couldn't have sex with them unless they

668
00:40:05,902 --> 00:40:08,982
Speaker 2: were unconscious, so he had find a means to render

669
00:40:08,982 --> 00:40:13,022
Speaker 2: them unconscious. It was chloroform that kills Creator because he

670
00:40:13,062 --> 00:40:14,062
Speaker 2: gave her too much.

671
00:40:14,662 --> 00:40:16,542
Speaker 1: Do we know what killed Lucy? Would it have been

672
00:40:16,622 --> 00:40:17,582
Speaker 1: chloroform as well?

673
00:40:17,822 --> 00:40:20,382
Speaker 2: Probably we don't know what he gave her.

674
00:40:21,302 --> 00:40:24,982
Speaker 1: Because then I guess to jump from you know, he's

675
00:40:25,022 --> 00:40:28,182
Speaker 1: sexually assaulting these people, but then to do what he

676
00:40:28,262 --> 00:40:30,582
Speaker 1: did to Lucy's body, like he is just a.

677
00:40:30,702 --> 00:40:34,582
Speaker 2: Oh exactly, like you think, no, who could do that?

678
00:40:35,022 --> 00:40:35,902
Speaker 2: Who could do that?

679
00:40:36,622 --> 00:40:39,862
Speaker 1: We touched on the judicial system in Japan in that

680
00:40:39,942 --> 00:40:44,022
Speaker 1: the trial took six years, and that's not like here

681
00:40:44,022 --> 00:40:46,942
Speaker 1: in Australia. You might wait in prison for three years

682
00:40:46,982 --> 00:40:49,662
Speaker 1: and then finally go to trial, which might be a

683
00:40:49,702 --> 00:40:55,062
Speaker 1: few months. But this was him in court numerous times

684
00:40:55,142 --> 00:40:59,062
Speaker 1: over six seven years. That is a long drawn out

685
00:40:59,102 --> 00:41:00,262
Speaker 1: process and.

686
00:41:00,222 --> 00:41:05,382
Speaker 2: It's not unusual. The longest trial I think was twelve years.

687
00:41:05,622 --> 00:41:09,382
Speaker 2: Well somebody, and the assumption is you're guilty, so it's

688
00:41:09,502 --> 00:41:14,302
Speaker 2: just all question of repeated, repeated questioning until you admit

689
00:41:14,462 --> 00:41:18,462
Speaker 2: your bills. But Joji will never come out. I mean

690
00:41:18,502 --> 00:41:21,502
Speaker 2: the Japanese police have said to me, he'll never come

691
00:41:21,542 --> 00:41:24,342
Speaker 2: out of prison. He got a life sentence, but which

692
00:41:24,422 --> 00:41:28,022
Speaker 2: I know in this country doesn't necessarily mean life at all.

693
00:41:28,102 --> 00:41:30,982
Speaker 2: But they said he will never come out of prison.

694
00:41:31,022 --> 00:41:33,302
Speaker 2: They would always find a reason to keep in there.

695
00:41:34,102 --> 00:41:37,982
Speaker 1: And what was Joji like in court? Because he took

696
00:41:38,022 --> 00:41:39,742
Speaker 1: to the stand quite a bit. He had quite a

697
00:41:39,742 --> 00:41:43,342
Speaker 1: bit to say that was very damaging to the families.

698
00:41:44,382 --> 00:41:47,182
Speaker 2: It was, it was all bizarre. He said that all

699
00:41:47,262 --> 00:41:50,582
Speaker 2: the girls had had sex with him willingly, that they

700
00:41:50,622 --> 00:41:53,822
Speaker 2: were all on drugs, they were all, you know, drug

701
00:41:53,862 --> 00:41:56,702
Speaker 2: addal prostitutes who were just having sex for money, and

702
00:41:56,742 --> 00:42:02,142
Speaker 2: that it was consenting, and that said terrible things about

703
00:42:02,182 --> 00:42:02,742
Speaker 2: all of them.

704
00:42:03,382 --> 00:42:06,662
Speaker 1: An interesting kind of fact I read in your book

705
00:42:07,062 --> 00:42:11,302
Speaker 1: was that going to his trial became fashionable.

706
00:42:12,262 --> 00:42:15,222
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, that's right, because it was the big story

707
00:42:15,262 --> 00:42:20,142
Speaker 2: at the time, and even over here the papers kept

708
00:42:20,262 --> 00:42:22,342
Speaker 2: leaving it and picking it up again. You know, on

709
00:42:22,382 --> 00:42:24,302
Speaker 2: a dull news day it would be like, oh, well,

710
00:42:24,342 --> 00:42:28,262
Speaker 2: what's happening in Japan with Jojiobara because they knew the

711
00:42:28,342 --> 00:42:29,782
Speaker 2: trial was taking so long.

712
00:42:30,382 --> 00:42:33,182
Speaker 1: But Japanese couples were like going on dates and sitting

713
00:42:33,262 --> 00:42:35,742
Speaker 1: in the courtroom bizarre.

714
00:42:36,022 --> 00:42:40,182
Speaker 2: Which is again very bizarre. To ask, isn't it? It's gruesome.

715
00:42:40,662 --> 00:42:43,782
Speaker 1: So in April two thousand and seven, he was given

716
00:42:43,822 --> 00:42:47,222
Speaker 1: life in prison, as you've said, for Kreta's death and

717
00:42:47,462 --> 00:42:48,582
Speaker 1: eight charges of rape.

718
00:42:48,622 --> 00:42:49,062
Speaker 2: But he was.

719
00:42:49,062 --> 00:42:54,782
Speaker 1: Actually acquitted of Lucy's murder in that instance, he was.

720
00:42:55,382 --> 00:42:57,822
Speaker 1: That must have been so shocking for Tim and the

721
00:42:57,862 --> 00:42:58,702
Speaker 1: rest of the family.

722
00:42:59,622 --> 00:43:02,702
Speaker 2: It was, it was, and the Ridgeways were equally upset

723
00:43:02,822 --> 00:43:07,662
Speaker 2: because obviously they'd bonded over losing two daughters, and the

724
00:43:07,742 --> 00:43:11,662
Speaker 2: Ridgeways were equally upset that he wore wasn't although they

725
00:43:11,702 --> 00:43:15,902
Speaker 2: were satisfied that he was found guilty of Creator's murder,

726
00:43:16,022 --> 00:43:21,222
Speaker 2: that Lucy wasn't. It was a terrible thing for the family.

727
00:43:21,302 --> 00:43:23,382
Speaker 1: But that was rectified the following year.

728
00:43:24,222 --> 00:43:28,022
Speaker 2: It was. It was because they it's more or less

729
00:43:28,222 --> 00:43:31,462
Speaker 2: we have a phrase for it here. I'm just trying

730
00:43:31,502 --> 00:43:35,382
Speaker 2: to think what the phrase is. But it's like beyond

731
00:43:35,502 --> 00:43:38,902
Speaker 2: reasonable doubt that the fact they knew Lucy was in

732
00:43:38,942 --> 00:43:41,942
Speaker 2: the flat, they found her hair, he dismembered the body,

733
00:43:42,182 --> 00:43:46,702
Speaker 2: so the assumption was that he had somehow caused her death.

734
00:43:47,982 --> 00:43:51,302
Speaker 2: He wasn't ever convicted of Lucy's murder as such, but

735
00:43:51,422 --> 00:43:53,982
Speaker 2: of causing her death and disposing the body.

736
00:43:54,822 --> 00:43:59,302
Speaker 1: Another thing I wanted to touch on was the payments

737
00:43:59,542 --> 00:44:03,022
Speaker 1: that both of the dads actually kind of took or

738
00:44:04,422 --> 00:44:07,222
Speaker 1: thought about taking, which was it's a kind of a

739
00:44:07,222 --> 00:44:09,582
Speaker 1: thing that happens in the Japanese system. Can you explain

740
00:44:10,622 --> 00:44:11,342
Speaker 1: what that was.

741
00:44:12,142 --> 00:44:15,302
Speaker 2: It's sort of they feel that they've offended you. It's

742
00:44:15,382 --> 00:44:18,582
Speaker 2: like your honor has been damaged by the death of

743
00:44:18,622 --> 00:44:23,022
Speaker 2: a family member, and so it's quite common to pay.

744
00:44:23,302 --> 00:44:26,422
Speaker 2: I mean, to ask him, it seems like compensation, and

745
00:44:26,422 --> 00:44:28,742
Speaker 2: that was why the families didn't want to take it,

746
00:44:28,782 --> 00:44:32,782
Speaker 2: particularly the mothers. But Tim explained it to me. I mean,

747
00:44:32,782 --> 00:44:35,502
Speaker 2: it calls a terrible falling out in their family. But

748
00:44:35,622 --> 00:44:38,862
Speaker 2: Tim explained to me that he'd had to leave his

749
00:44:38,982 --> 00:44:43,262
Speaker 2: job and he stopped work the whole time he was

750
00:44:43,302 --> 00:44:46,502
Speaker 2: searching for Lucy, and he needed money as well to

751
00:44:46,542 --> 00:44:50,102
Speaker 2: continue the search for Lucy. So it had cost him

752
00:44:50,142 --> 00:44:52,862
Speaker 2: personally an awful lot of money. And he said he

753
00:44:52,902 --> 00:44:55,782
Speaker 2: felt that if he accepted this money on behalf of

754
00:44:55,822 --> 00:44:59,782
Speaker 2: his children, he could give it to the family and

755
00:44:59,822 --> 00:45:02,902
Speaker 2: that it would help him to support Rupert and Sophie

756
00:45:03,022 --> 00:45:04,302
Speaker 2: lose his brother and sister.

757
00:45:04,982 --> 00:45:09,062
Speaker 1: But that money was coming from Joji or Jogi's defense team.

758
00:45:09,382 --> 00:45:13,422
Speaker 2: Yes, it's it's a difficult one, isn't it. And Jane

759
00:45:13,542 --> 00:45:15,942
Speaker 2: was terribly upset Lucy's mother and.

760
00:45:16,422 --> 00:45:19,982
Speaker 1: The courts kind of no, this is happening. It's a

761
00:45:20,022 --> 00:45:22,662
Speaker 1: regular part of the kind of process and it doesn't

762
00:45:22,702 --> 00:45:26,222
Speaker 1: affect the kind of outcome. Is that right?

763
00:45:26,862 --> 00:45:31,382
Speaker 2: That's correct? But Sam said to me that I think

764
00:45:31,462 --> 00:45:34,302
Speaker 2: when her father, I think her father did accept some

765
00:45:34,422 --> 00:45:38,342
Speaker 2: money in the end, and they said they would only

766
00:45:38,422 --> 00:45:41,902
Speaker 2: do it on condition that it didn't mean it didn't

767
00:45:41,982 --> 00:45:45,782
Speaker 2: absolve Jojio Bar of any guilt for Kreta's death.

768
00:45:47,102 --> 00:45:51,742
Speaker 1: Lucy Blackman's name was everywhere. Obviously, her family, her dad

769
00:45:51,862 --> 00:45:54,462
Speaker 1: did so much to get her story out there, the

770
00:45:54,582 --> 00:46:00,102
Speaker 1: search out there. Her face is very familiar, but Coreta

771
00:46:00,982 --> 00:46:04,982
Speaker 1: she wasn't as familiar. And many people today who might

772
00:46:05,022 --> 00:46:08,262
Speaker 1: remember Lucy's story might not remember her story. Why do

773
00:46:08,302 --> 00:46:09,022
Speaker 1: you think that is?

774
00:46:09,422 --> 00:46:12,902
Speaker 2: I think because I just didn't receive so much publicity.

775
00:46:13,142 --> 00:46:17,342
Speaker 2: And I don't really know why. I mean, other than

776
00:46:17,382 --> 00:46:21,222
Speaker 2: the fact that Tim went to Australia and it got

777
00:46:21,262 --> 00:46:25,022
Speaker 2: the world's press. But I don't know why. I suppose

778
00:46:25,062 --> 00:46:29,702
Speaker 2: because with Lucy was she was missing and that involved

779
00:46:29,702 --> 00:46:31,662
Speaker 2: the press, you know, where is she? Where is she?

780
00:46:31,742 --> 00:46:37,702
Speaker 2: Where is she? Whereas with Coretakreta had supposedly died in

781
00:46:37,822 --> 00:46:41,702
Speaker 2: hospital and disappeared, and then you know, she was never

782
00:46:41,782 --> 00:46:44,342
Speaker 2: missing for any period. She went out on the date

783
00:46:44,422 --> 00:46:46,342
Speaker 2: with Joji Barr and then she was in hospital and

784
00:46:46,382 --> 00:46:49,982
Speaker 2: then she died. So I think the story just didn't

785
00:46:50,022 --> 00:46:53,582
Speaker 2: get picked up. And certainly, you know, as I said,

786
00:46:53,622 --> 00:46:56,382
Speaker 2: it just wasn't covered here at all. I didn't know

787
00:46:56,502 --> 00:46:58,662
Speaker 2: until Mary Claire asked me to go out and cover

788
00:46:58,702 --> 00:47:03,342
Speaker 2: the story about Kreta Ridgeway. And it was such a tragic,

789
00:47:03,462 --> 00:47:06,342
Speaker 2: tragic story, and she was such a lovely girl, you know,

790
00:47:06,742 --> 00:47:10,782
Speaker 2: I feel it it's terrible that she should be gotten

791
00:47:10,782 --> 00:47:12,582
Speaker 2: in this way out and by her family.

792
00:47:13,622 --> 00:47:18,982
Speaker 1: Did the depravity of what Joji did to not just

793
00:47:19,102 --> 00:47:22,222
Speaker 1: Lucy into Karata, but all of these women, did it

794
00:47:22,302 --> 00:47:24,982
Speaker 1: help to kind of clean up Japan's sex industry a bit,

795
00:47:25,062 --> 00:47:29,182
Speaker 1: or at least kind of discourage women from joining certain

796
00:47:29,222 --> 00:47:30,302
Speaker 1: parts of the industry.

797
00:47:30,942 --> 00:47:34,302
Speaker 2: It did, It did very much. So I think that

798
00:47:34,702 --> 00:47:39,222
Speaker 2: after Lucy's death they went into Rapongie and everything was

799
00:47:39,302 --> 00:47:42,702
Speaker 2: cleaned up massively, and people I know have been there

800
00:47:42,742 --> 00:47:47,582
Speaker 2: since then said it's changed totally today and that you

801
00:47:47,742 --> 00:47:51,622
Speaker 2: have to have there's very strict rules about being a hostess,

802
00:47:52,182 --> 00:47:54,822
Speaker 2: and you can't go off and not say who you're with,

803
00:47:55,142 --> 00:47:57,142
Speaker 2: and they keep a track of the men that are

804
00:47:57,182 --> 00:48:00,102
Speaker 2: coming into the bars. And also I think the whole

805
00:48:00,382 --> 00:48:04,702
Speaker 2: hostess culture declined after Lucy, you know, because people no

806
00:48:04,782 --> 00:48:06,182
Speaker 2: longer felt that it was safe.

807
00:48:07,222 --> 00:48:10,422
Speaker 1: What did you take away from Dick diving into this story?

808
00:48:10,462 --> 00:48:12,862
Speaker 1: Because you went to Japan, you went to these bars,

809
00:48:13,222 --> 00:48:15,862
Speaker 1: you saw everything, You visited all of the houses that

810
00:48:15,942 --> 00:48:19,102
Speaker 1: Joji was at. It's such a complex case and also

811
00:48:19,142 --> 00:48:22,102
Speaker 1: such a different criminal system to what you're used to

812
00:48:22,142 --> 00:48:24,222
Speaker 1: in the UK or what we're used to do in Australia.

813
00:48:24,342 --> 00:48:26,462
Speaker 1: What stays with you from doing this story?

814
00:48:27,662 --> 00:48:32,062
Speaker 2: I think just how different Japanese culture is still to

815
00:48:32,262 --> 00:48:36,622
Speaker 2: us really, and that you know, to Joji was such

816
00:48:36,662 --> 00:48:40,302
Speaker 2: a monster, He was such a to a degree that

817
00:48:40,862 --> 00:48:44,102
Speaker 2: we find very different fathom in a way that we

818
00:48:44,182 --> 00:48:48,182
Speaker 2: could understand some British murders. I think this is still

819
00:48:48,742 --> 00:48:53,142
Speaker 2: so bizarre to us. The whole thing is a bizarre story.

820
00:48:54,382 --> 00:48:59,102
Speaker 1: I did watch a Netflix documentary about Lucy's story in particular,

821
00:48:59,222 --> 00:49:02,662
Speaker 1: and the Japanese investigators. This is a story that's really

822
00:49:02,662 --> 00:49:06,422
Speaker 1: stayed with them as well, and they've visited Lucy's family.

823
00:49:06,422 --> 00:49:09,262
Speaker 1: I'm not sure about creators, but it has been something

824
00:49:09,302 --> 00:49:13,222
Speaker 1: that has had a really big effect on not just

825
00:49:13,262 --> 00:49:15,822
Speaker 1: the families, but also the police and everyone else that

826
00:49:15,862 --> 00:49:16,382
Speaker 1: worked on it.

827
00:49:17,342 --> 00:49:20,542
Speaker 2: Oh, very much so. And what really touched me when

828
00:49:20,902 --> 00:49:23,182
Speaker 2: I went out to the beach where they found Las's

829
00:49:23,222 --> 00:49:27,102
Speaker 2: body was there a jar. It's a nest cafe jar

830
00:49:27,302 --> 00:49:32,822
Speaker 2: or something, an empty coffee jar, and every day Japanese

831
00:49:32,902 --> 00:49:36,582
Speaker 2: people put fresh flowers there, and I believe that's still

832
00:49:36,582 --> 00:49:38,622
Speaker 2: the case. I have a friend Barbara, who still lives

833
00:49:38,622 --> 00:49:41,022
Speaker 2: in Tokyo, and she says it's still the case today

834
00:49:41,462 --> 00:49:46,062
Speaker 2: that Japanese people feel that Tokyo and Japan should have

835
00:49:46,102 --> 00:49:50,302
Speaker 2: been somewhere safe that people families could send their daughters to,

836
00:49:51,182 --> 00:49:52,622
Speaker 2: and they feel it very deeply.

837
00:49:59,582 --> 00:50:01,782
Speaker 1: Thanks to Claire for helping us to tell this story.

838
00:50:02,302 --> 00:50:05,342
Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations is a Mum of mea podcast hosted

839
00:50:05,382 --> 00:50:08,462
Speaker 1: and produced by me Jemma Buss and Talie Blackman, with

840
00:50:08,582 --> 00:50:12,022
Speaker 1: audio design by Jacob Brown. Thanks so much for listening.

841
00:50:12,102 --> 00:50:14,862
Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation