Speaker 1: Welcome to Parenting out Loud, the podcast of parents who
Speaker 1: don't always listen to parenting podcasts. We like to take
Speaker 1: a look at the news, trends and culture and what
Speaker 1: parents are thinking about.
Speaker 2: I'm Monique Bowley, I'm Amelia Lester and I'm Stacy Kicks
Speaker 2: and coming off on today's show, it's being described as
Speaker 2: the saddest murder case in the world. So why is
Speaker 2: every mother you know obsessed with it?
Speaker 1: I've got the case for radical Irwin parenting. I think
Speaker 1: Australia's top parenting expert is hiding in plain sight in
Speaker 1: a Safari suit.
Speaker 3: Actually, And I'm going to tell you about the podcast
Speaker 3: that I put on when my kids in the bath
Speaker 3: and I'm sitting on the toilet seat next to them
Speaker 3: and we're just having a little gab at the end
Speaker 3: of the day.
Speaker 4: I love it. Can't wait.
Speaker 3: But first, Bluie's got a new look and not everyone
Speaker 3: is pleased about it. A trailer for the new Bluey movie,
Speaker 3: which is being made by Disney and released a year
Speaker 3: from now in August twenty twenty seven, just came out
Speaker 3: and the animation is quite different from the TV show.
Speaker 3: It looks quite different the trailer is very simple. It's
Speaker 3: Bluey and Bingo playing keep it uppy with an iconic
Speaker 3: red balloon, of course. But what struck me about it
Speaker 3: is that looks very similar to say, a Toy Story.
Speaker 3: And that's because rather than being in that flat two
Speaker 3: D the Healer.
Speaker 4: Family, and now in more of.
Speaker 3: A three D, more kind of realistic if you can
Speaker 3: be a family of dogs talking, I've had more realistic universe.
Speaker 4: It's the Hollywood glow up. Yeah, Louie, Yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 3: And while lots of people are very excited for that
Speaker 3: sort of more more dimensional image, some are having a
Speaker 3: bit of a hard time with it, so I think
Speaker 3: to get ahead of it. Louie's creator Jo Brahm, Yeah yeah,
Speaker 3: was talking about why they made that shift this week.
Speaker 5: The first short film I ever made in my third
Speaker 5: year of our college was in three D.
Speaker 4: It brought the.
Speaker 5: House down at our screening, and I just thought, I'm
Speaker 5: going to be a three D animator. And then I
Speaker 5: spent the rest of my career in two D hand drawn,
Speaker 5: and I love two D and I love hand drawn,
Speaker 5: but three D was a thing. And at the same
Speaker 5: time as I made that film, Toy Story was coming
Speaker 5: out and it felt like this is my generation of animation.
Speaker 5: We're always striving to get a beauty of nature in
Speaker 5: the show, and I wanted to have every tool available
Speaker 5: to capture a beautiful blade of grass and light rays
Speaker 5: and all that. And I wanted kids to be able
Speaker 5: to feel like they could reach in and give these
Speaker 5: little dogs a scratch on their furry heads.
Speaker 3: Now that's obviously so cute, and we love Joe and
Speaker 3: his Australian invention of Bluie. That's made us also proud.
Speaker 4: Even the background music maybe, Oh.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, You've got to bring your tisses to the movie.
Speaker 3: And I'm so excited for the movie. But I find
Speaker 3: what's interesting about this is that Joe Bram has been
Speaker 3: wrestling with fame and success in front of us for
Speaker 3: so long now. Because that final episode of Blue about
Speaker 3: whether or not they're going to move, It's really about
Speaker 3: Joe debating am I ready for the big time?
Speaker 4: Am I ready to go to Hollywood?
Speaker 3: And I love how he's kind of being open with
Speaker 3: us in that way through his art.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I've never thought about that before. What
Speaker 1: other messages are you getting from Louis?
Speaker 3: That final episode was a meditation on whether or not
Speaker 3: he could accept the success and the accolades and the
Speaker 3: big time and all the demands that that were put
Speaker 3: on him. Yes, it would bring him more money, it
Speaker 3: would bring him more acclaim, but it would also it's
Speaker 3: a trade off. Like I think for him to then
Speaker 3: go to Hollywood and take on a Disney movie project,
Speaker 3: there's trade offs involved in that for him, and I
Speaker 3: love how he was honest with us about that in
Speaker 3: that episode. Do they stay? They don't such an interesting stay?
Speaker 3: They stay in two D? Becausever but not forever?
Speaker 4: But not Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2: I think we just don't. We don't love change. Yes,
Speaker 2: you know, like when something kind of is changing in
Speaker 2: a way that we didn't we didn't choose, it is
Speaker 2: this hard thing of oh that's not how That's why
Speaker 2: parenting is so emotionally wrenching because every day has changed.
Speaker 4: That is so true and so just ding some real
Speaker 4: truth bombs here. Yeah really are wow.
Speaker 1: Curious question from me. The way you brought this to
Speaker 1: the show, Melia, thank you. So interesting was the criticism
Speaker 1: against the three D Did that happen first and then
Speaker 1: they released this reel of him talking about it, or
Speaker 1: like you said something about it being a productive.
Speaker 3: So yeah, there was a little bit of chatter before
Speaker 3: the trailer came out about what it would look like.
Speaker 3: Then the trailer comes out and it's in. It's in
Speaker 3: this more three D look. And I don't know exactly
Speaker 3: when they filmed the interview that we played from there,
Speaker 3: but the comments on that are very divided. Once the
Speaker 3: trailer came out, people there were two camps, wouldn't you say, Stacy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, people being like, I don't care give
Speaker 2: me Bluey in any form that it comes to me,
Speaker 2: like we know it will be.
Speaker 4: It has to be too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it does look like a richer, more visualous, sumptuous
Speaker 3: universe does.
Speaker 2: And then other people going, this isn't my Bluey. I
Speaker 2: don't know this Bluey.
Speaker 1: I think it's going to be one of those things
Speaker 1: that you notice for the first two minutes and then
Speaker 1: you just forget that it even was any different.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll look. I'll be wrestling you too.
Speaker 3: For the August twenty twenty seven We'll be Live podcast
Speaker 3: will be there regardless. Another little in case you missed
Speaker 3: it this week, cast your mind back to how you
Speaker 3: felt four weeks after your first baby. Now imagine going
Speaker 3: on National Live TV with that baby in your arms,
Speaker 3: in my truck suit that I'm born for four days straight.
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, cool, Yeah, I'd look great.
Speaker 3: Today's show host Sarah Arbo is living what would be
Speaker 3: my nightmare, but she's looking lovely while doing it. She
Speaker 3: returned to the morning TV show Couch this week with
Speaker 3: her four week old Sonny, and I have to say
Speaker 3: he was remarkably well behaved and she looked remarkably put together.
Speaker 3: Here's some of what she had to say.
Speaker 6: Oh my god, we have a child now, and from
Speaker 6: the moment you first meet them in hospital to you know,
Speaker 6: the nightly feeds and more daily morning, all the time feeds.
Speaker 6: Just nursing him is so beautiful, and you just go,
Speaker 6: this little guy is so dependent on us, and you know,
Speaker 6: we just want to make him proud and just give
Speaker 6: him the best start in life.
Speaker 3: That's what morning TV hosts do so well. They share
Speaker 3: with us such relatable insights into how you think in
Speaker 3: any time of life. Like when she said that about
Speaker 3: the responsibility, Yeah, that's what everyone think. I was just thinking, Wow,
Speaker 3: that was a really succinct, well put together sentence, something
Speaker 3: I was not doing for weeks post part even more incredibly,
Speaker 3: Sarah attended the Logis on Sunday night, which I cannot
Speaker 3: imagine putting on an evening gown and spanks So for
Speaker 3: weeks after you have a baby.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a no from me. This is not
Speaker 1: a criticism of Sarah Arbo by any means. What I
Speaker 1: want to do here is play the ball and not
Speaker 1: the man. So what I want to sort of challenge
Speaker 1: is the idea that she went on that couch, not
Speaker 1: her doing it or her decision. Right, It's kind of
Speaker 1: like that the context around her having to go and
Speaker 1: do that. I think for me this feels suchually feels
Speaker 1: really gendered, and I think it also speaks to kind
Speaker 1: of the pressure of retaining relevance in the workplace when
Speaker 1: you step out and have a baby. Like we know
Speaker 1: that we already live in a culture where women feel
Speaker 1: really worried that when they go on maternity leave that
Speaker 1: they're going to lose relevance, that people are going to
Speaker 1: forget about them, that they won't maintain the same kind
Speaker 1: of value in the workplace. So to see her on
Speaker 1: the couch four weeks postpartum just raankle me.
Speaker 4: A little bit. Go on, I know what you're going
Speaker 4: to say, yeah, I don't see a problem with this.
Speaker 2: I feel like everyone wants to take their baby in
Speaker 2: and show them off and pretend that they're doing great.
Speaker 2: Like maybe she is legitimately doing great in every way,
Speaker 2: but I think you do want to go back and
Speaker 2: show those people. And I think by extension, they talk
Speaker 2: about it on morning TV all the time that their
Speaker 2: audience is their family and they feel this very parasocial
Speaker 2: relationship with them.
Speaker 4: So she's just sharing the good news.
Speaker 1: No, that's very true, and I agree with that. I
Speaker 1: agree with the parasocial relationship. I agree, but this isn't
Speaker 1: pop into the workplace and say hi.
Speaker 4: For five minutes.
Speaker 1: She's in a makeup chair an hour before she's like,
Speaker 1: you know, this is a huge undertaking to take a
Speaker 1: baby in and sit there and smile. And she performed
Speaker 1: like she was wonderful, and I know the audience would
Speaker 1: have loved it. I'm more talking about that kind of
Speaker 1: feeling of like that I'm still here, don't forget about
Speaker 1: me kind of Maybe I'm overthinking it.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 1: No, I think the thing that got me sorry to
Speaker 1: jump in again is that the reason I think it's
Speaker 1: gendered is like Carl Stefanovic didn't schlep baby Harper into
Speaker 1: the Today Show couch when he had her, you know,
Speaker 1: four weeks after he had that baby. And I just
Speaker 1: think and because no one would have ever expected him to,
Speaker 1: and yet Sarah Arbo does.
Speaker 3: I think it's a good point once and I think
Speaker 3: maybe it's even more heightened for her that feeling, whether
Speaker 3: or not she's actual feeling it. I think a lot
Speaker 3: of women do feel that way, and it might be
Speaker 3: heightened in her case because in the lead up to
Speaker 3: her taking her parental leave, it was such a charge
Speaker 3: time at the Today Show with Carl leaving and a
Speaker 3: lot of controversy, and I just wonder if that wouldn't
Speaker 3: have heightened that feeling. I've got to get back there,
Speaker 3: I've got to keep.
Speaker 4: Things smooth and running.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the pressure that women are under all the time.
Speaker 1: It's like, you're four weeks go rest be with your baby, Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I just felt I know it was probably her choice
Speaker 1: and it was probably all fine, but just there was
Speaker 1: that little part of me that thought, I wish she
Speaker 1: didn't have to do this. Before we get into it,
Speaker 1: this segment is going to canvas issues of mental illness
Speaker 1: and infant death. So if that's not something you want
Speaker 1: in your ears today, please look after yourself and skip forward.
Speaker 1: We will have the exact time code in the show notes.
Speaker 2: If you haven't heard the name Lindsey Clancy yet, you
Speaker 2: are about to hear it everywhere. And why I really
Speaker 2: wanted to bring this story to the show today is
Speaker 2: that I haven't seen a story capture the attention of women,
Speaker 2: particularly mothers, like this in my sixteen years in media.
Speaker 2: So Lindsay is a thirty six year old nurse and
Speaker 2: a mother, and she's at the center of what they're
Speaker 2: describing as the saddest murder trial in the world. And
Speaker 2: what's unique about this is while Lindsay is on trial
Speaker 2: for the murder of her three children, which I think
Speaker 2: all of us can agree is just the most horrific circumstances,
Speaker 2: she's being met with widespread sympathy. And I have a
Speaker 2: few theories as to why this is happening, but I
Speaker 2: wanted to ask, are you two starting to see this
Speaker 2: story coming into your algorithms a lot?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 2: Are you starting to hear your group chats talking about
Speaker 2: this case?
Speaker 1: I wasn't, and then I was blissfully ignorant until very
Speaker 1: late this week, and then because I know you wanted
Speaker 1: to bring it up, I had to google it. I'm
Speaker 1: afraid to admit I did. Yea yeah, and now it's everywhere.
Speaker 1: Now I feel like, how did I miss this?
Speaker 3: I've been hearing about it, but I had consciously switched off,
Speaker 3: but it got this week to the point where I
Speaker 3: couldn't do that anymore. Yeah, and so I do really
Speaker 3: want to hear from you once we've established the facts.
Speaker 3: For people like me who are not caught up on
Speaker 3: it all, why this horrific true crime story has captured
Speaker 3: the attention of so many women who aren't even normally
Speaker 3: into true crime.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, And I think people maybe listen to this
Speaker 2: show as a comfort during postpartum time, and the last
Speaker 2: thing we would want is for that to hinder you
Speaker 2: in any way. So please take care of yourself and
Speaker 2: know that we're thinking of you if that.
Speaker 4: Is the case.
Speaker 2: So, if you are aware of all the circumstances, I'm
Speaker 2: just going to catch you up really quickly on what
Speaker 2: this story is and what Lindsay is accused of doing.
Speaker 7: So.
Speaker 2: Lindsay is accused of murdering her three children, this five
Speaker 2: year old Cora, three year old Dawson, and eight month
Speaker 2: old Callan. So they were killed in their home in Massachusetts.
Speaker 2: Back in twenty twenty three. The court heard that Lindsay's
Speaker 2: now ex husband Patrick was picking up takeaway while this happened.
Speaker 2: And it's been heard in court that Lindsay then attempted
Speaker 2: to die by suicide by self harming and then jumping
Speaker 2: out of their second story window. She's been left with
Speaker 2: lifelong injuries from that and she's now in a wheelchair
Speaker 2: while she's in court at the moment. So Lindsay's defense team,
Speaker 2: I just want to make this really clear that Lindsay's
Speaker 2: defense team are not denying that she caused their deaths.
Speaker 2: Lindsay has admitted to causing their deaths.
Speaker 1: What they said, so this is not a case of
Speaker 1: did she or didn't she. No, they're saying she did.
Speaker 2: Despite what you might be seeing on social media, this
Speaker 2: is not a case of that. What Lindsay's defense team
Speaker 2: are saying is that she is not guilty by reason
Speaker 2: of insanity. So they're citing that this was active postpartum
Speaker 2: psychosis that caused what happened, and that's that's what's being
Speaker 2: heard in the court right now, so so far, they're
Speaker 2: hearing that Lindsay repeatedly attempted to seek help for her
Speaker 2: worsening mental state and which included intrusive thoughts and depression.
Speaker 2: The court has heard that she was on a combination
Speaker 2: of up to thirteen prescribed medications and she raised concerns
Speaker 2: multiple times that they were hindering her more, that they
Speaker 2: were making her symptoms worse, and people, including a nanny
Speaker 2: that worked for the Clancys, testified that Lindsay was a
Speaker 2: wonderful mother who loved her kids. In fact, no one
Speaker 2: has said a bad word about Lindsay and the evidence
Speaker 2: we've heard thus far.
Speaker 1: She's a former nurse, isn't she.
Speaker 4: She is, yeah, former midwife.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I read an article about how in the post,
Speaker 1: you know, in the maternity ward, people would ask for her.
Speaker 1: She was like the top nurse, the best, the most caring,
Speaker 1: the most loving.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's widely been what's been reported inside and outside
Speaker 2: of the courtroom.
Speaker 3: But Stacey, what does what has the prosecution had to
Speaker 3: say about her seeking the help and her raising the
Speaker 3: flags about the drugs?
Speaker 2: I think that is that is the thing that they're
Speaker 2: they're hinging their argument on here is that Lindsay was
Speaker 2: a victim of a system that allowed her to fall
Speaker 2: through the crack.
Speaker 3: So if the defense is saying, look, this was a
Speaker 3: woman in medical need who was in fact trying to
Speaker 3: raise the alarm with her doctors about the fact that
Speaker 3: she was on a lot of medications and maybe they
Speaker 3: weren't working well together, and that she wasn't feeling herself,
Speaker 3: what does the prosecution have to counter that with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the prosecutioner trying to prove that she was
Speaker 2: of sound mind at the time and that she purposely
Speaker 2: sent Patrick, her now ex husband, out on an errand
Speaker 2: during that time, so that she could commit the murders.
Speaker 4: And in fact, she.
Speaker 2: Took a phone call from him while while he was
Speaker 2: out he went to the chemist to get medication.
Speaker 4: For the children. Have we heard the phone call.
Speaker 2: We haven't heard the phone call. We've just heard that
Speaker 2: it was fourteen seconds or fifteen seconds, something really short
Speaker 2: like that, but that they chatted in that time and.
Speaker 1: Checking on a medication.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and she sounded normal, distracted.
Speaker 2: That they might be in the bath, or that she
Speaker 2: might be in the middle of something, but that she
Speaker 2: seemed fine.
Speaker 4: Right, But I mean.
Speaker 2: Patrick himself, it should be said, is sympathetic to Lindsey
Speaker 2: and has spoken multiple times previously to the court case
Speaker 2: about the fact that he's found it in his heart
Speaker 2: to forgive her. And one of the quotes that always
Speaker 2: stands out to me is that he said he didn't
Speaker 2: marry a monster, he married someone who became ill.
Speaker 4: And that was that big New York piece about Yeah.
Speaker 4: So he is in support of Lindsay in this kind has.
Speaker 3: Well stayed that way because I read that he has remarried,
Speaker 3: he's still taking that stance of sympathy towards her.
Speaker 4: I believe.
Speaker 2: So he hasn't kind of spoken about that in the
Speaker 2: court case now, but he's kind of remade steadfast in
Speaker 2: that support of her that she was suffering in that time.
Speaker 1: Discourse around this seems to be kind of split into
Speaker 1: three really distinct parts. Number one is the true crime
Speaker 1: obsessive seem to be on this track, and there's a
Speaker 1: huge conspiracy that actually Patrick he's actually the murderer. We
Speaker 1: can discount that, But then what we're left with is
Speaker 1: that Lindsey many many people are siding with her and
Speaker 1: standing with her and saying this is a woman who
Speaker 1: was in deep psychological distress and she was let down.
Speaker 1: And she was a woman who asked for help multiple
Speaker 1: times and yet still fell through the cracks and was
Speaker 1: let down by the systems around her and by the
Speaker 1: people around her. But then there's the third tranch of
Speaker 1: the internet that's saying, hang on, three children are dead
Speaker 1: and at her hands. And so no matter what psychological
Speaker 1: situation is happening here, somebody needs to be kept held
Speaker 1: to account for this.
Speaker 4: Yep. So yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2: I think that second point is the crux of why
Speaker 2: everyone is so invested in this case. And I've been
Speaker 2: reading a lot about this because, as you said, yeah, so,
Speaker 2: first of all, online, what you see in the courtroom
Speaker 2: and what's being presented in the courtroom is very different
Speaker 2: to what you're seeing on social media. As Mon's just said,
Speaker 2: then a lot of people on social media will have
Speaker 2: you believe that her husband did it, which is unfounded
Speaker 2: in this situation. This case is not about whether he
Speaker 2: did it or he did it. People are so passionate
Speaker 2: about this, and I think part of what I'm going
Speaker 2: to explain is why so in this case, there's a
Speaker 2: lack of what they call defensive attribution. So doctor Kristen
Speaker 2: Summer did a great video about this week and link
Speaker 2: to where she talks about how when a tragedy happens,
Speaker 2: we like to say a child drowning in a backyard
Speaker 2: swimming pool, we like to blame it on a person's
Speaker 2: choices rather than saying it was an unavoidable situation. So
Speaker 2: we like to say, well, that person wasn't watching their child,
Speaker 2: and you could avoid that because you could watch your child.
Speaker 2: So that won't happen in my situation, because I will
Speaker 2: avoid this by watching my child. And that's how your
Speaker 2: mind tricks itself into feeling like life is controllable again.
Speaker 2: But in a case like this, where there's potential postpartum psychosis,
Speaker 2: we can't comfort ourselves out of that thought because it
Speaker 2: feels like something that's impossible for us to avoid. And
Speaker 2: so she explains it as the one way our brain
Speaker 2: finds a way out is sympathy for Lindsey that we
Speaker 2: just we can't rationalize it.
Speaker 3: I feel like this happens again and again in these
Speaker 3: horrible cases, that we collectively seem to have some idea
Speaker 3: of how parents should cope in these unimaginable situations.
Speaker 4: Yeah, where do we get that from Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think it is probably that thing of it feels
Speaker 2: so horrific and so unbelievable to us that we feel
Speaker 2: like we could never we could never do that, and
Speaker 2: we just don't know because we're not in that situation.
Speaker 4: That's reason one why people are obsessed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So my other two things I want to point out.
Speaker 2: One of the other reasons I think is that Lindsay
Speaker 2: Clancy is a beautiful white woman, and we know that
Speaker 2: the media definitely draws more attention to cases like that,
Speaker 2: So I think that may.
Speaker 1: Be so tough to be said perfectionist. She's slender, she's beautiful, yep.
Speaker 2: Yep, she was a nurse, she fits all these things
Speaker 2: that we think of as the perfect mother, rightly or wrongly.
Speaker 2: But I think one of the other things that really
Speaker 2: gets to the crux of why we all feel so
Speaker 2: emotional about this story is that we can see us
Speaker 2: a bit in Lindsey Clancy. And while we might not
Speaker 2: even ever be able to imagine the depths of where
Speaker 2: she got to at the end, for a lot of us,
Speaker 2: I think we can recognize the beginning because we've been
Speaker 2: postpartum and we know how dark that place can get.
Speaker 2: And I think it's one of those things where you
Speaker 2: can see how without intervention you can take steps down
Speaker 2: that path, and it doesn't feel that far from the
Speaker 2: path that we're on. Beckday wrote a brilliant piece for
Speaker 2: mom and Mia, which we can link to in the
Speaker 2: show notes, and there was a comment under the piece.
Speaker 2: She wrote that I just want to read to you
Speaker 2: because it really stuck with me, perfectly encapsulating why women
Speaker 2: feel so emotionally tied to this story. This woman said,
Speaker 2: it's been eighteen years and I still clearly remember holding
Speaker 2: my screaming four month old little boy with my hands
Speaker 2: around his tiny little chest, just wanting to shake him,
Speaker 2: saying to myself, put him down. I remember removing each finger,
Speaker 2: laying him down safely, going to the bathroom and crying.
Speaker 2: It wasn't psychosis, it wasn't depression. It was sleep, deprivation
Speaker 2: and desperation. So I can only imagine how if your
Speaker 2: brain is working against you, how hard that must be.
Speaker 4: This poor woman.
Speaker 2: My heart breaks for her, and I think, regardless of
Speaker 2: whether Lindsay is held criminally responsible or not in this case,
Speaker 2: she will be in a living hell for the rest
Speaker 2: of her life. And seeing it happen feels too close
Speaker 2: to home for a lot of us. Is that resonating
Speaker 2: with you?
Speaker 1: It is, but the data also backs that up. So
Speaker 1: the rates of postpartum anxiety and depression are climbing. It
Speaker 1: is one in five women will experience either. But I
Speaker 1: do want to distinguish between those things and postpartum psychosis,
Speaker 1: which is the point in this case here. Postpartum psychosis
Speaker 1: is a very serious mental illness.
Speaker 4: It is rare.
Speaker 1: It can cause extreme mood changes both high and low,
Speaker 1: so manic highs of euphoria and very low lows. But
Speaker 1: it also can cause hallucinations, delusions, a person loses touch
Speaker 1: with reality, and postpartum psychosis is a medical emergency.
Speaker 3: I think that's all really important to say, Mom's and Stacy,
Speaker 3: thank you for explaining that. That actually makes so much sense.
Speaker 3: Why this story has captivated so many people.
Speaker 2: And I think that's the thing that gets lost sight
Speaker 2: of in cases like this is because true crime is
Speaker 2: such a big genre that we now consume. We almost
Speaker 2: feel removed from that a little bit. That at the
Speaker 2: center of this are three little children that lost their
Speaker 2: lives and nothing is going to change that. I think
Speaker 2: the best thing we can hope for in this case,
Speaker 2: regardless of the outcome, is that postpart and mental health
Speaker 2: is put very much at the forefront, and it feels
Speaker 2: like conversations are happening around that more and more now.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, this is a conversation that is in the
Speaker 1: culture right now. And I think what's troubling me is
Speaker 1: that Australia is considered world leading in this space because
Speaker 1: we were one of the first countries to actually screen
Speaker 1: every new mother for depression. You would remember, you go
Speaker 1: to that six week check after you have a baby
Speaker 1: and they run through that questionnaire with you and for
Speaker 1: some like that's going to catch a few things, but
Speaker 1: for others it won't. Because that five minute exercise of
Speaker 1: ticking boxes. We know that if women are under having anxiety,
Speaker 1: We've read a lot of case studies, a lot of
Speaker 1: reports out there of women not wanting to be truthful
Speaker 1: about how they feel postpartum with the fear that their
Speaker 1: baby will be taken away from them. So I guess
Speaker 1: what's disturbing is like Australia is seen as kind of
Speaker 1: ahead of the curve here and yet and yet so
Speaker 1: many women still fall through the gaps, and especially culturally
Speaker 1: and linguistically, diverse women. The rates of postpartum anxiety depression
Speaker 1: that go untreated in those communities are really high. So
Speaker 1: what we're less good at is what happens after the screening.
Speaker 1: You have that sort of rudimentary screening, and then the
Speaker 1: follow up care is this giant wasteland and the system's
Speaker 1: really patchy. And I guess this week, encouragingly, Senator Mariel
Speaker 1: Smith put a motion in the Senate to establish a
Speaker 1: Senate inquiry into postpartum health, the costs of it, the
Speaker 1: accessibility of it, the delivery of mental health support and
Speaker 1: of physical support in that postpartum period. And she's essentially
Speaker 1: saying how you recover from birth, and this is live birth,
Speaker 1: and it's also babies that are steelborn as well. She's
Speaker 1: saying both of those things. She's saying, how you recover
Speaker 1: from that birth shouldn't depend on money, on postcode, on privilege,
Speaker 1: or whether you happen to luck out and stumble across
Speaker 1: the right practitioner or the right GP at the right time.
Speaker 1: This needs to be infrastructure. This needs to be legislated infrastructure.
Speaker 1: And guys, I've never watched Parliament in my life, and
Speaker 1: I put the Senate on live stream so I could
Speaker 1: hear what she had to say. I feel that invested
Speaker 1: in this. This is that important for women. So here's
Speaker 1: what she said in the Senate.
Speaker 7: Access to good quality care in the postpartum period should
Speaker 7: not be a matter of what you can afford where
Speaker 7: you live, and it can't be left to luck. We
Speaker 7: can break down the stigma that stops women reaching out
Speaker 7: in this critical period of their lives. It stops them
Speaker 7: from getting help. There is still a group of women
Speaker 7: that I am afraid as a community, we are not
Speaker 7: reaching women who are struggling with their own experiences. Women
Speaker 7: struggling with feelings of failure or shame, women too overwhelmed
Speaker 7: to leave their house because of anxiety or the physical
Speaker 7: impacts of their births. How do we find them?
Speaker 1: So you know Australia's senators are on it, and let's
Speaker 1: hope that that reform can happen. If anything in this
Speaker 1: conversation hit close to home for you or for someone
Speaker 1: that you know, the Panda Helpline is thirteen hundred seven
Speaker 1: two six three oh six and Lifeline is thirteen eleven fourteen.
Speaker 1: We will put links in the show notes. Please please
Speaker 1: reach out though the resources are there for you?
Speaker 2: All right?
Speaker 1: A little gear change now. I want to bring some
Speaker 1: positivity to the show after that heavy segment when I
Speaker 1: say to you both, name a parenting expert in Australia
Speaker 1: who comes to mind?
Speaker 4: Hi you Dan right, Steve Bidoff right?
Speaker 1: Okay, I want to posit the case for a sleeper expert,
Speaker 1: a parent who is hiding in plain sight because she
Speaker 1: does wear a lot of khaki. It's this week. I
Speaker 1: watched at the Logis as many people did. I watched
Speaker 1: Australia's darling, Robert Irwin, and I thought, as I think
Speaker 1: every time I see him, what a fine young man.
Speaker 1: And I look at his sister, Bindi, and I think,
Speaker 1: what a fine young woman. And this week at a thought,
Speaker 1: what did their mother do to raise two wholesome, pure
Speaker 1: kind like people with integrity. These are children who have
Speaker 1: been brought up in the spotlight, and yet they remain grounded,
Speaker 1: they remain wholesome, and they remain very values driven. And
Speaker 1: so and I say, what did she do? Because as
Speaker 1: we know, she raised them largely as a widow. Bindy
Speaker 1: was eight and Robert was two when their father, Steve
Speaker 1: Erwin died. So I went hunting. I was like, what
Speaker 1: does Terry Erwin do with her parenting that has raised
Speaker 1: these two wholesome, beautiful children. And I found out two
Speaker 1: very interesting things and I would like to posit the
Speaker 1: case for radical Irwin parenting.
Speaker 4: Hey give it to us, okay.
Speaker 1: The first one is that she had them meaningfully working
Speaker 1: at Australia Zoo from like contributing to the family business
Speaker 1: from a very young age. So's she's Terry's the owner
Speaker 1: in the chairwoman of Australia Zoo. And she put them
Speaker 1: to work. And this was not just make your bed
Speaker 1: and take your dishes up to the sink when you
Speaker 1: finish with them, and unpack your school bag. This was
Speaker 1: feed the crocodiles, clean up the rhino, pooh and muck
Speaker 1: in right. So they were meaningfully contributing to the family business.
Speaker 1: And the second thing that she did was she made
Speaker 1: them present to crowds from when they were really young.
Speaker 1: So she told People magazine about BINDI. I wanted to
Speaker 1: give her the opportunity to feel comfortable with public speaking,
Speaker 1: so she joined me to tell guests about our amazing wildlife.
Speaker 1: I felt that if she could learn about wildlife and
Speaker 1: teach others by addressing a large crowd, she'd be able
Speaker 1: to have the confidence to be a leader in her
Speaker 1: chosen field. So Bindi was out there doing galapagus tortoise
Speaker 1: presentations from the age of about seven.
Speaker 2: They really do seem wise beyond their years, Like I
Speaker 2: wonder whether that's come into it. Even from when Bindi
Speaker 2: was twelve, there was almost this how can that be
Speaker 2: a real child? She's so clever and she's so grown up,
Speaker 2: like she feels like they really are just.
Speaker 4: I don't know much about them.
Speaker 3: Don't you explain when you said they lived by the
Speaker 3: right values?
Speaker 4: What are their values? Tell me more about how such good.
Speaker 1: Kids conservation Amelia, and they just seemed to have never
Speaker 1: really put a foot wrong. There was a period of
Speaker 1: time when Bindi was younger where people sort of viewed
Speaker 1: her as a bit precocious, But then she got up
Speaker 1: and did the eulogy at Steve's funeral and it was
Speaker 1: this watershed moment for Australia to just be like, this
Speaker 1: kid is incredible. And I just think that we've talked
Speaker 1: about the importance of sort of risky play on this
Speaker 1: show before to kind of build resilience. But I do
Speaker 1: think that the irwins and the way that they were
Speaker 1: raised traversus this terrain that we haven't talked about before,
Speaker 1: which is that there's a really strong correlation between kids
Speaker 1: that do like meaningful chores and contribute in a family
Speaker 1: sense turning out to be very well rounded adults with
Speaker 1: a lot of self worth and a lot of confidence
Speaker 1: and work ethic and empathy. So I just think, what
Speaker 1: do you reckon? Like, do we need a Tarry Erwin
Speaker 1: parenting book?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Or maybe we could get our kids to write
Speaker 3: our scripts for this show. We're going to say, why
Speaker 3: don't we just put them on the mix and just
Speaker 3: see what happens.
Speaker 4: It's meaning great play for them. Yeah, Yeah, I'm all
Speaker 4: for it.
Speaker 2: I think that's the only That's the thing is that's
Speaker 2: the only opportunity we have. I don't have rhinopuh in
Speaker 2: my backyard for my kid to be cleaning up. Maybe
Speaker 2: I need to go make a mess and then she
Speaker 2: can sort that out.
Speaker 1: I mean, Hell was screaming at me last night to
Speaker 1: make her smoothie, and I said, Robert Erwin was feeding
Speaker 1: crocodiles at your age, I'm pretty sure you can make
Speaker 1: your own smoothie.
Speaker 2: That was the thing though, Mon's they were, they have
Speaker 2: seemed so perfect and like they have the most beautiful,
Speaker 2: like positive mental attitude to things, these kids that it
Speaker 2: was almost when it was only Bindi that was really
Speaker 2: in the public eye, she did get a lot of flak,
Speaker 2: like you said, for being too precocious. And when Robert
Speaker 2: came along, and now we see him a lot more,
Speaker 2: obviously through the logis and all the shows he's on.
Speaker 2: You go, oh, no, that's that's just who they are
Speaker 2: as a family. That's just that's just how they are,
Speaker 2: and of course we want our kids to be like that, right,
Speaker 2: it's lovely.
Speaker 1: A lot of said about Steve Irwin, but I actually
Speaker 1: think Terry Owen.
Speaker 4: Yeah, she's the real mvpain. Yes, she's the goat. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Okay, before we finish up today, it's time for recommendations,
Speaker 1: where we bring you the very best that we've seen, used, bought,
Speaker 1: and tried, and we skipped out on last week, so
Speaker 1: we've got to bumper one for you this week. Stacey,
Speaker 1: You've got something for us to watch.
Speaker 2: Yes, I want you all to watch Five Star Weekend
Speaker 2: on Binch.
Speaker 3: Have you seen this around? I'm so curious about this.
Speaker 3: It looks just like a delightful, relaxing.
Speaker 2: Wa it is so visually stunning, Like one of our
Speaker 2: writers here described it as like the perfect crisp glass
Speaker 2: of rose, and that is how I would describe the show.
Speaker 2: It stars Jennifer Gana and it's got Chloe Sevignier and
Speaker 2: Regina Hall like great cast in this show. And Jennifer
Speaker 2: Ganner plays a food influencer who loses her husband. That's
Speaker 2: not a spoiler, that happens immediately in one of the
Speaker 2: early episodes, and she invites four friends from four different
Speaker 2: lives ages for this weekend away. That's the five stars,
Speaker 2: the five of them together. But what's really interesting is
Speaker 2: how they portray female friendship and how different friends at
Speaker 2: different points in your life get such a different version
Speaker 2: of you. So you see a lot of tension between
Speaker 2: like her childhood best friend and her college best friend,
Speaker 2: and then her friend that she met once they had children.
Speaker 2: Like it's just so interesting to watch that play out,
Speaker 2: and it's just it's just a fun and light, but
Speaker 2: then it's got lots of juicy bits in there to
Speaker 2: keep you in. And the last ep dropped this week.
Speaker 2: I have not watched the last episode yet, so I'm
Speaker 2: kind of doing a Monsie.
Speaker 3: When she prerecorded Oh oh, it's not going to be
Speaker 3: like Gas. Yes, when she pre recorded ted Lasso season four.
Speaker 3: Hopefully it's not like that. But the first seven episodes
Speaker 3: have been absolute bangers.
Speaker 4: So watch it.
Speaker 3: It's great, really lovely. I'm recommending a podcast. It's called
Speaker 3: The Listies Make You loll Cast. It's made by two
Speaker 3: Melbourne comedians. Mons You spent a lot of time in Melbourne,
Speaker 3: do you know. Richard Higgins and Matt Kelly.
Speaker 4: Were my neighbors.
Speaker 3: So they say they make comedy for kids aged five
Speaker 3: to five hundred million dinosaurs allowed, so you get a
Speaker 3: sense of the humor from that. It's it's very heavy
Speaker 3: on slapstick and fart jokes.
Speaker 4: But what I love to do is.
Speaker 3: I put it on when my kid is in the
Speaker 3: bath and I sit on the toilet seat and we
Speaker 3: both have a giggle, not the seat itself on top of.
Speaker 4: The toilet, the toilet lid.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we all know, and we have a bit of
Speaker 3: a giggle, and it's just very funny. They recently went
Speaker 3: to New York and they riffed about Taylor's was sweating
Speaker 3: at Madison Oblong Garden And I recommend it highly.
Speaker 4: Are they long episodes or they're like half.
Speaker 3: An hour each? And my kid loves it so much
Speaker 3: he's even written in can they read out like emails
Speaker 3: from their listeners?
Speaker 4: It's very whole side note.
Speaker 1: Do you know stamps are a dollars seventy now?
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 4: Oh my god? Yeah, dollars.
Speaker 1: I remember when they are forty five cents. That's how
Speaker 1: I'm showing my age. Yeah, So receiving something in the
Speaker 1: mail now has this extra layer of like, wow, someone's
Speaker 1: really gone above and beyond that.
Speaker 4: It's guested.
Speaker 1: I have also a podcast recommendation for you, and it's spring,
Speaker 1: which means just one thing. It's time to throw open
Speaker 1: the windows of your house. It's time to hire a
Speaker 1: skippin and throw everything away. It's declutter season.
Speaker 3: Before you get into declutter season, just give me a
Speaker 3: sort of paint me a quick picture of how Facebook
Speaker 3: Christmas Mums of Australia is feeling right now as the
Speaker 3: seasons turn.
Speaker 4: Is that holding up? You want to update on Christmas Mums?
Speaker 4: Where are they at right now? They are in the
Speaker 4: third quarter.
Speaker 1: You know they talk about the championship quarter of the game,
Speaker 1: like the third quarter is just important. Okay, the third
Speaker 1: quarter in a game is the most important. It's where
Speaker 1: you focus. You hope this is where games are.
Speaker 4: One or lot. The fourth quarter was important.
Speaker 1: It's not.
Speaker 4: It's done in the third.
Speaker 1: The hard work's done in the third and that's where
Speaker 1: Christmas Mums Australia are at right now. The two things
Speaker 1: to report from that group. Number one, Christmas pajamas are
Speaker 1: available for pre order already on Best and Less.
Speaker 4: You're welcome. Target will have theirs out very soon as well.
Speaker 1: But the secondly second thing to report is that Costco
Speaker 1: have got their Christmas stock coming in as we speak.
Speaker 1: So yes, if you want to join the Christmas Mon's
Speaker 1: Australia Facebook group, I'm in there all the time. It's
Speaker 1: a lot of fun. But this recommendation is more suited
Speaker 1: to the mums who clean Facebook group that I'm in
Speaker 1: or mums who organize. Are you willing?
Speaker 4: I need for control? My life's a mess.
Speaker 1: I spend my time looking at these groups, is what
Speaker 1: it is. This podcast episode is an episode of The
Speaker 1: Mel Robins Show and it's called It's a couple of
Speaker 1: weeks old now, so you have to scroll through. The
Speaker 1: title of it is Organize your Life and Home the
Speaker 1: simple system that gives you more time, energy and control.
Speaker 4: Mel Robins has let them, right, she's let them. Yes,
Speaker 4: I thought her vibe would have just been just let
Speaker 4: just leave it, man, I leave it all there whatever, Right.
Speaker 1: It's not. So believe me when I tell you I've
Speaker 1: listened to many, many decluttering podcasts, and this one is
Speaker 1: the best episode I've ever heard. I have now listened
Speaker 1: to it three times. That's how good it is.
Speaker 4: Going back.
Speaker 3: Does it have a philosophy? That's yeah, it does, And
Speaker 3: what's the philosophy.
Speaker 1: Does The philosophy is, don't think about decluttering your house,
Speaker 1: think about editing. So you guys are both editors, right,
Speaker 1: you edit in, you keep the good things in, and
Speaker 1: you get rid of the rubbish. Just edit your home
Speaker 1: to make it work for you. But the other thing
Speaker 1: they say, which I've never heard before, is that organized
Speaker 1: people are too lazy to look for things. So being
Speaker 1: organized is actually like way more efficient. I was just
Speaker 1: lazy to go look for things because everything's just got
Speaker 1: us place to go.
Speaker 2: So you don't have to rifle. Everything's just there. So
Speaker 2: actually you're making it easier for you to be lazy
Speaker 2: by putting in the hard.
Speaker 3: Something that you have organized after listening to this many things.
Speaker 4: I've done my bookshelf.
Speaker 1: I've edited my bookshelf, I've edited my pantry, i have
Speaker 1: edited my linen closet. Because what I'm doing now is
Speaker 1: at night time, everyone's in bed and the house is
Speaker 1: dark and quiet.
Speaker 4: I put this podcast on and I.
Speaker 1: Hyper focus on one area of my house and it's
Speaker 1: like it like motivates me to do it.
Speaker 4: Okay, all right, I can't start telling people about this episode.
Speaker 2: Recommend that people also just put us in your ears,
Speaker 2: just any of the episodes while you do that at
Speaker 2: night as well.
Speaker 4: It doesn't have to be mel it can be us.
Speaker 4: We'll be with you at rage clean.
Speaker 1: I could do extra episodes of this podcast work read
Speaker 1: out posts from the Christmas Mum's Facebook group.
Speaker 3: What's the opposite of ASMR? We should be wrapping this
Speaker 3: up now.
Speaker 4: Hey, that is all we have time for.
Speaker 1: Thank you Amelia for wrapping us up, and thank you
Speaker 1: Stacy Hicks, thank you for your follow thank you for listening, and.
Speaker 4: We'll see you again next week.
Speaker 3: Bye.
Speaker 4: MoMA.
Speaker 1: Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of Bland on which we
Speaker 1: have recorded this podcast