WEBVTT - Part 1: Nina Funnell Has A New Fight. This One Will Shock You 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.360 Before you listen today. This episode contains stories of child 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:09.240 sexual abuse, sexual assault, and suicide. Nina Fanelle is lying 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:12.440 in the dirt. It's two thousand and seven and she'd 0:00:12.480 --> 0:00:15.320 been walking home from a university celebration to her parents' 0:00:15.320 --> 0:00:18.520 house in Sydney's Lower north Shore when she was attacked 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:23.880 by a stranger. At first, her reaction to being punched, threatened, 0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:28.800 pulled into a nearby park and sexually assaulted was to freeze. 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:34.000 But right now she's ready to fight. The man's grasp 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:38.440 is still on her throat. She can't breathe, she can't move. 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:42.839 I don't want to die, not like this, she thinks. 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:50.040 Then she's fighting him, thrashing, kicking, punching, anything to get 0:00:50.080 --> 0:01:00.280 his body off hers. It works, He retreats and she runs. 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:04.880 I'm Jemma Bath and you're listening to True Crime Conversations, 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:09.200 a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:12.680 to the people who know the most about them. Nina 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:16.560 Fanel didn't get justice in her own story. They never 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:20.120 found the guy who sexually assaulted and attacked her, but 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:23.760 her experience lit a fire in her belly, and she 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:26.720 has used her career as a journalist to help other 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:31.840 victim survivors of assault. She has changed laws across the country, 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:36.360 held systems and people and abuses to account, and helped 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:41.040 reshape the way the Australian media tells the stories of survivors. 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:45.280 Her various campaigns, such as the let Her Speak campaign, 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:50.120 which targeted gag laws preventing victims from naming themselves, introduced 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:52.960 us to survivors like Grace Tamee, who went on to 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:56.200 become Australian of the Year for her own advocacy in 0:01:56.280 --> 0:02:00.800 this space. The Justice Shouldn't Hurt campaign helped Pipper and 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:04.960 Rose Milthorpe share their experience as child victim survivors in 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:08.440 the new South Wales court system, ultimately leading to an 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:11.360 enormous change for the state in the way young people 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:14.760 give evidence. We've actually had their mum Michelle speak on 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:19.160 a recent episode of this podcast right now, she's in 0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:24.120 the midst of another campaign. It's called Keep Counseling Confidential, 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:28.120 which I'll let her explain. Nina is a force to 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:31.760 be reckoned with. She is a tireless advocate and has 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:34.919 become a safe place for people to share their truth. 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:38.800 She has won various awards for her work, including the 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:42.480 Australian Human Rights Award and a Kennedy Award. She joins 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:45.240 us now to talk about it all. Nina, thank you 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:48.960 for joining us on True Crime Conversations. You have built 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:54.079 your career on telling the stories of victim survivors as 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:57.960 a victim survivor yourself. How hard is that to do 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:01.360 this day in and day out, to tell these stories. 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:04.880 Yeah. I mean it's a bit of a double edged 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:08.000 sword in the sense that a lot of the details 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:11.560 that I'm looking at, particularly in police reports, are very 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:16.560 graphic and very harrowing, but the people themselves are extraordinary. 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:18.880 And the thing about my work is that I'm not 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:20.960 a court reporter. I'm not going And I did that 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:24.120 for one day and I actually didn't survive it because, yeah, yeah, 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:27.119 I was reporting on a rape case and I went 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:31.320 to trial and I was watching a survivor being cross examined, 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:36.240 and I actually felt like I was watching someone being tortured. 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:38.119 It was very very clear that they did not want 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:41.800 to be there, and I felt sick. I couldn't do 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:44.600 that kind of reporting. I learned court reporting is not 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:44.840 for me. 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:47.119 It's very hard. I've done it before too, and it's 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:48.480 very confronting. It is. 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:51.280 It is, whereas the sort of reporting that I'm doing 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:54.720 is I'm usually so the way that I work is 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:57.520 that victim survivors approach me. I never do call out, 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:00.440 and there are a range of reasons why I don't 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:03.400 do callouts. But when victim survivors approach me, if I 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:06.320 have capacity to do the story, usually they're at a 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:08.840 point in their own recovery and healing where they've actually 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:12.320 had some therapy, they've regained some agency, They're at a 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:16.280 point where they're reclaiming, and so I'm meeting people not 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:18.200 on the worst day of their life. I'm actually usually 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:20.400 meeting them at a point where they're beginning to become 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:24.400 re empowered, and I view my role as walking alongside 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:26.599 them in that process. And so the people themselves are 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:30.799 actually quite extraordinary. The details are harrowing, but I actually 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:32.360 really enjoy the work with the people. 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:35.440 That's such an amazing way to look at it, like 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:38.200 you are the vehicle that helps them kind of yeah, yeah, 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:40.239 get back out there and reclaim everything. 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:43.760 And that's exactly how I view it, as I'm facilitating 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:50.279 them at taking that next step in their process towards 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:54.120 healing and recovery or you know, reclaiming agency over their story. 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:57.280 I want to start with your story. Sure, lots of 0:04:57.320 --> 0:05:00.799 people might not have heard it us about what happened 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:02.200 to you in two thousand and seven. 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:06.880 Yeah. Sure. So I was studying Media and Communications at 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:11.640 Sydney University. I wanted to be a journalist, and I 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:16.200 was doing my honors year in Media and Comms. And 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:19.120 it was actually on the day of my honors presentation. 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:25.400 I was traveling home afterwards, and I was walking down 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:30.000 my street, which is in Sydney. At the time, I 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:32.559 was living with my parents and it's in a pretty 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:38.400 safe suburbs in Hunters Hill, and I was I had 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:45.479 headphones on, and I remember I was carrying my university 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:49.040 notes and a bottle of Coachs Hero and I had 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:52.080 a guy approach me from behind and he grabbed me 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:54.920 around here and he held a box cut of blade 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:58.520 to my throat and he dragged me into a park 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:01.920 and he said he released me, and he came in and 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:04.159 he stood in front of me and he said, point blank, 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:08.159 he said, I'm going to kill you. And he made 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:10.280 a fist and he struck me and I fell back 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:12.880 on my back and he climbed on top of me 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:19.279 and began strangling me and bashing me and then indecently 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:25.080 sexually assaulting me. And you know, this is nineteen years 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:29.760 ago now, so it's I've had a lot of therapy 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:34.360 and a lot of processing since then. But I fought back, 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:39.240 and there's parts of my memory that are missing or 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:42.840 that are fragmented. I do remember a feeling. I mean, 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:44.480 the most terrifying part was actually when I was being 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:46.240 strangled because I couldn't breathe and I thought I was 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:50.440 going to die. When he got off me, I remember 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:53.080 like just the sensation, the feeling of lightness on my 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:55.560 chest that I could breathe again. And then the next 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:57.760 memory that I have is actually standing up and looking 0:06:57.800 --> 0:07:01.800 down and I had blood on my hands, and because 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:03.599 he'd had a box cut of blade, I didn't know, 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:06.040 you know, I was in shock. I didn't know if 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:08.200 I'd been stabbed. I didn't know why I had blood 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:11.560 on my hands. I didn't I was disoriented and confused. 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:14.400 The first thing I did was I checked my body 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:17.040 to see if I was bleeding anywhere, And when I 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:21.360 couldn't find anywhere that I was bleeding, I just grabbed 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:27.040 my bag which was on the ground, and got out 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:30.240 my phone and began running. And I called the police 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:33.400 as I was running down my street and telling them 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:35.200 my name, where I live, what had happened to me. 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:37.960 And I got to the front door of my parents' 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:40.600 house and I got out my key, and I just 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:43.280 remember my hands were shaking so much that I couldn't 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:45.600 get my key in the front door, and I just 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:48.880 remember having this sort of another surge of the adrenaline, 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:50.640 thinking like, is he going to grab me again because 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:53.680 I can't get inside anyway. Eventually I calmed my hand 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:55.040 down enough to get the key in the door, and 0:07:55.080 --> 0:08:00.320 I got inside, and soon after the police arrived. They 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:04.080 took me back to the park where it happened, straightway, 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:07.520 straight away. Yeah, but it was interesting because you don't 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:09.920 necessarily respond in these moments where you think you're going 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:11.520 to respond, like people have often said, you know, it 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:13.440 was that terrifying. And I was like no, I was like, 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:18.880 by then I had gone from freeze mode to fight mode, 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:21.720 into flight mode, then back into fight mode, and so 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:23.480 when we went back to the park, I was ready 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:25.120 to fight like I had by then. There were a 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:27.240 number of police, there were police dogs, I thought that 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:29.280 they were going to catch him. I was like, let's 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:31.920 get him, let's get him. Yeah, they I mean they 0:08:31.920 --> 0:08:34.600 found a bunch of like he'd ripped my necklace off, 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:36.880 they found there was scuff marks in the ground, like 0:08:37.679 --> 0:08:41.960 all of that. I remember seeing my coke, my bottle 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:44.160 of cokes here on the ground and instinctively going to 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:47.600 pick it up because it was like like rubbish, like 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:50.600 you clean up, you know, and then being like, no, 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:52.800 don't touch that. That's now evidence, and me just kind 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:58.800 of going right like right of course, okay, this is 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:02.560 evidence now, and it being this weird anyway, So they 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:06.360 took me to the police station, and yeah, that night 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:11.760 I went through the process of you know, the photographs, swabs, 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:13.800 all of that sort of stuff, making the police report, 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:17.440 and then getting referred to to raw No Sure sexual 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:20.720 assault Service. So that was. Yeah, that was when I 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:24.320 was twenty three, and yeah, like it changed my life. 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:26.960 I talk about it now quite just passionately, probably because 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:29.400 I've had sort of certain therapies and so on. But 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:32.600 I don't think you do. You're just very matter of fact. Yeah. 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:34.920 Yeah, I mean, firstly, I'm sorry that happened to you. 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:36.040 Thank you, thank you. 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:39.839 How did you find your interactions with the police, because 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:41.840 had you interacted with police before this? 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:44.040 No, I don't think I'd ever been inside a police 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:46.960 station before that. I had a challenging experience with the 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:51.480 police in that I gave a description of the offender 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:54.040 and they did what's called a comfit, which is like 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:57.280 a sketch drawing yes. Yeah, And so they got me 0:09:57.360 --> 0:10:00.319 back in the station a few days later. I was still, 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:03.840 you know, in acute trauma, and they got me to 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:08.120 look through like these big binders of sex offenders who 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:10.760 live in my area. And I had no idea that 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:14.120 there were that many sex offenders that live locally. Like 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:17.600 that in and of itself was actually really quite overwhelming 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:22.280 and traumatic. So I'm flicking through these binders of these 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:26.160 faces and they're essentially asking me do you recognize the person? 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:29.960 And I didn't. He wasn't in there. But as I 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:32.560 was doing that, there was a conversation happening behind me 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:36.360 between a couple of guys, and they were talking about how, oh, 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:38.120 you know the problem is, you know, these young women 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:40.319 they don't understand the risk out there and the risks 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:42.839 that they're putting themselves in. And I was just like 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:46.400 you know, I was. The problem is not young women, no, 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:49.319 full stop no. And the problem is not the decision. 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:51.320 You know, I was walking down my street and I'd 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:53.600 had that sort of attitude from other people in my 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:59.400 life who I disclosed to already of you know, how 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:01.360 could you be so stupid to be walking home alone? 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:03.640 Da da da da da. You know, and you know, 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:07.960 when your human rights have just been violated, the last 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:11.199 thing that you expect is that people are then going 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:15.200 to turn around and blame you or question you or 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:17.920 suggest that you've made the mistake as opposed to the 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:21.040 person that's violated your human rights. And that was both. 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:22.640 I mean, look, it was at the time, it was 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:26.960 incredibly challenging. In retrospect, it's been incredibly motivating. 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:30.120 Very motivating, I would say, yeah. 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:34.000 So I look. I actually subsequently found out that so 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:36.439 that police station was Glades Or Police station, and several 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:39.760 years later, in twenty thirteen, I got an alert that 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:44.160 the station was actually there was a culture in that 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:48.120 station where one of the cops there had been secretly 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:52.160 recording himself having sex with women using a pinhole camera 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:55.480 and then bringing the footage to work and showing it 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:58.640 around to no. No, and I remember reading that going, 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:02.240 are you fucking kidding me? My goodness, So that was 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:05.040 the culture of that police station, where he would this 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:08.240 individual was bringing this footage to work, showing it to 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:12.120 his mates, are the coppers, so that they could all 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:15.160 have a good laugh at this woman whose human rights 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:15.640 were being. 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:18.200 Exploited and people fighting for. 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:20.480 These were the people who were meant to support me 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:26.360 in my most vulnerable moment of my life. So when 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:30.720 I found that story in twenty thirteen, it was, you know, 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:33.640 it was horrifying to think about the women that that 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:35.839 had happened to, who had been filmed without their consent, 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:39.000 and how they would be filming feeling sorry. It was 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:46.160 also oddly vindicating in that because this isn't the first 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:49.880 time I've spoken publicly about the fact that the police, 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:52.680 the attitudes that I experienced from police were not ideal, 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:55.240 and when I spoke about that, I copped backlash and 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:57.760 intimidation from police, and I felt like this moment of like, 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:00.680 have I done the wrong thing? Now? I absolutely don't 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:03.160 think I've done the wrong at all, and would make 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:04.160 the same decision again. 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:06.240 Did they ever find the guy? 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:09.240 No? So that's an interesting story in and of itself. 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:16.200 So that night they you know, they took the swabs 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:18.000 and so on, and because I had blood, we didn't 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:19.880 know if it was my blood or his blood, and 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:22.199 there was a few things. They ended up being able 0:13:22.240 --> 0:13:26.839 to find his DNA on me, but they have never 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:31.760 found a match in the system. Now, the interesting thing 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:33.680 about that was it took them more than six months 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:36.120 to actually test the DNA, and that was six months 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:38.920 of my life where firstly I was thinking, you know, 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:42.800 this is this guy fits the criteria of the serial rapist, 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:45.280 wouldn't you and the level of violence involved in the 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:47.199 fact that he was a complete stranger, you would think 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:49.280 that they would make it a priority to test that 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:52.560 kind of DNA. Evidently not. It wasn't until I wrote 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:56.520 a press release and spoke to Channel seven and put 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:59.520 pressure on the then Premier Morris Yemma to step in 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:03.840 the back when and tested the DNA. They and again, 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:06.720 like that begs the question of why victim survivors having 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:10.120 to advocate for justice in their own cases, let alone 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:14.760 systemic reform. And what happened was after I'd you know, 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:17.160 highlighted the fact that six months had gone by and 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:19.680 the DNA had still not been tested. The premier did 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:22.920 step in and ask for it to be tested, and 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:24.720 that was good for me in the sense that the 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:26.760 squeaky wheel gets to the grease. I got my answer, 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:29.320 but it just meant that everybody else in the queue 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:31.400 now had to wait one extra day. Yeah, and I 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:34.560 think that was like, that was a in some ways, 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:37.680 that was a real learning lesson for me in terms 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:40.720 of campaigning and advocacy of I'd made a strategic error there. 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:43.640 I shouldn't have asked for my the DNA in my case, 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:45.560 to be tested. I should have asked for them to 0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:46.880 resolve the entire backlog. 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:48.480 Now you can see why you were a bit more 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:49.600 selfish in that scenario. 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:51.360 Yeah, I mean in that moment, I was, you know, 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:53.720 I you know, I think I was twenty four by 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:59.400 then and in deep trauma. But yeah, like I walked 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:01.680 away from that going, huh, there's a lesson there for 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:02.240 next time. 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:05.360 So that's obviously why you decided to speak out and 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:07.160 tell your story so soon after. 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:09.480 So I spoke out five weeks after, and it was 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:12.720 because he hadn't been apprehended, Like my goal at that 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:15.440 point in time was to get him arrested and removed 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:17.040 from the street so that he couldn't do this to 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:22.040 anyone else. And that was my motivation in speaking publicly, 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:25.360 because we know, as you know working in media, that 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:27.520 when you attach a face and a name to a story, 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:30.400 it gives it more prominence in the media. So that's 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:32.760 why I did it Initially. They now have his DNA 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:34.920 on file, they've never found a match. That's not to 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:37.359 say that they won't now find a match given advances, 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:39.760 particularly in genealogy, DNA. 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:42.080 Testing and so on. Yeah, not having a day in court, 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:45.080 not having a resolution to your own story, has that 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:45.960 had an impact on you? 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:50.080 Yes, But I think mainly for that first six months 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:54.520 when I was waiting every day to get the phone 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:56.160 call to tell me whether or not they'd found his 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:58.320 DNA and whether or not, because for that six months 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:02.720 I was in complete paralysis because I didn't know. Are 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:05.120 they going to call me and say we've got his 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:06.960 DNA and we know who he is and we're going 0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:08.160 off to a rest of the guy. You need to 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:09.840 get ready for court, in which case I need to 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:14.120 preserve every detail in my mind of what happened, you know, 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:16.600 for the purposes of cross examination and so on. Or 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:19.880 am I going to get the phone call saying you know, sorry, love, 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:23.320 we couldn't work. You know, we didn't get any DNA. 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:25.800 We don't know who he is, in which case I 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:30.280 need to, you know, process that in a way, which 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:33.320 is about trying to get to a point of acceptance 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:35.680 and moving on with the rest of my life. And 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:39.320 so for that six months, I was like seesawing between 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:42.120 am I meant to be moving on with my life 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:44.800 or am I meant to be preserving every detail and 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:47.800 sort of mentally preparing for court? And they're two very 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:51.400 different emotional states they are. So that was and that's 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:53.640 why when it got to the six month mark and 0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:56.080 the DNA still hadn't been tested, I was in an 0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:58.480 absolute frenzy and was like, I just need this answer 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:00.720 so that I can plan the rest of my life. Yeah, 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:04.720 after I got that answer that they had male DNA 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:06.280 but they didn't have a match, at least gave me 0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:09.760 some resolution, which meant that I could sort of park 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:12.040 it a little bit and focus on, well, what are 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:15.000 the things that I do have control over in my life? 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:17.320 And obviously the nature of sexual violence is that it 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:21.560 robs you of power and control, and so within therapy, 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:24.280 one of the things that you know, we plotted out 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:26.560 was well, what do I have agency in control over 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:28.520 and how can I put my energy into those things? 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:33.080 In a way that's become my therapy of well, you know, 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:35.359 I'm not going to get justice in the traditional sense, 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:37.520 you know, through the criminal justice system, but justice comes 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:39.800 in many forms, and for some of us, telling our 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:43.399 story is justice, or you know, working in solidarity with 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:44.800 other survivors is a form of. 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:46.719 Healing and justice changing the system. 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:48.400 Yeah, exactly, exactly. 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:51.320 So you mentioned that you were studying journalism at the time. 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:55.320 Had you thought about where you might specialize, what you 0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:58.760 wanted to do, and how did that change after what 0:17:58.840 --> 0:17:59.399 happened to you? 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:02.760 Yeah, so I did want to be a journalist. I 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:06.480 hadn't thought about what area I would specialize in. Interestingly, 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:09.520 I had actually I was very interested in human rights, 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:13.240 and I had done some gender studies subjects at university. 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:15.359 But it was a bit of a baptism by fire 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:18.320 in the sense that my first experience of journalism other 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:21.960 than as a consumer, was not me reporting the news. 0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:26.080 It was me being to the subjective news. And at 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:27.960 the time, like back in two thousand and seven, when 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:30.359 my story broke, there were very few public survivors, you know, 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:33.040 like this was an era before the Me Too movement, 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:35.760 before there was that sort of public push for survivors, 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:40.159 or not even a public pusher, an awareness that the 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:41.920 shame sits on the other side, and that we can 0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:44.720 tell our stories without fear or stigma. 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:47.440 And so when I was wild that we didn't do 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:50.000 that back then, Yeah, I mean, it's so common now 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:51.320 for people to tell their stories. 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:53.159 Yeah, and there's reasons for that. I mean, back then, 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:55.119 we didn't have social media, at least not to the 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:57.200 extent that we have now, and so there were real 0:18:57.280 --> 0:19:00.640 gatekeepers around which stories get told in media and how 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:03.800 they get told. And the way that victim survivors stories 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:08.440 were traditionally told was in this really paternalist stick way, 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:11.400 which was not necessarily inspiring or empowering from the victim 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:14.320 survivors to come forward. So I mean, and there was still, 0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:18.399 you know, as there are now many pervasive rape myths, 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:21.439 but back then it was even worse. So when I 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:25.879 went public, it was a really interesting experience in that 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:30.119 I now know personally firsthand what it's like to be 0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:33.080 in the vulnerable seat, you know, on the vulnerable side 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:37.480 of you know, the camera or the microphone and to 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:42.760 feel like you're handing over trust to the journalist to 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:46.440 tell your story. And at twenty three and I had, 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:52.360 you know, very little understanding of exactly what it meant 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:54.600 to go public as a survivor back then. So I 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:59.640 learned the hard way, really, and I had some very 0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:03.880 positi experiences with some journalists. I had some really challenging 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:07.000 experiences with a couple of journalists, but it taught me 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:09.600 that there is a way to do you know, the 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:11.760 positive experience has made me think, yeah, there is a 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:14.560 way to do this work, and it is important work. 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:16.520 I also noticed that a lot of the things that 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:19.600 really harmed me at the time were not necessarily intentional 0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:23.240 on behalf of the journalist. So back back in the day, 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:26.240 back in two thousand and seven, the Sydney Morning Herald 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:28.960 is too and all the newspapers they would refresh at midnight. 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:33.800 So I would be up at eleven fifty nine pressing refresh, Refresh, refresh, 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:36.080 waiting for my story to come up about what had 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:38.720 happened to me, And then when it's not there, I 0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:41.200 panic and I start spiraling, going, you know, has something 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:44.320 happened did they not believe me? Is something wrong? And 0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:46.520 by the time nine am rolls around and I can 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:49.080 call the journalist and find out the story just got 0:20:49.160 --> 0:20:51.639 held over. As you know, stories get held over all 0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:54.199 the time for all kinds of reasons. I've been up 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:57.560 half the night having an anxiety attack. Now that's not 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:02.720 because of a bad journalist. It's because of they weren't 0:21:02.720 --> 0:21:07.040 aware of the fact that for someone in my situation, 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:11.399 I would be hyper anxious about that story. You know. 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:14.359 There were other things like one journalist went to the 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:16.399 police and asked for a copy of my police report, 0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:22.720