WEBVTT - The Most Bizarre Celebrity Profile We’ve Ever Read

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello, and welcome to Mom and Mia out Loud. It's

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<v Speaker 2>what women are actually talking about on Monday, the night

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<v Speaker 2>of February. And I am Holly Waynwright.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm Jesse Stevens, and I'm Claire Stephens, filling in for Amelia,

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<v Speaker 3>who's going to be back on Wednesday, and also for

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<v Speaker 3>em both of whom are gallivanting around the world while

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<v Speaker 3>we're sitting here.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think I've ever been on a show with

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<v Speaker 2>a double Stevens situation before, have I think this is

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<v Speaker 2>a whole new thing. I'm a little bit nervous.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I hope people can tell our voices apart. I'll

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<v Speaker 3>speak slightly deeper just for Claric. I think you have

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<v Speaker 3>a tone of despair at the moment.

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<v Speaker 4>I'll try to be more upbeat.

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<v Speaker 2>You have to declare every time you speak. You'd be like,

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<v Speaker 2>this is Jesse, this is Claire. Do not attribute my

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<v Speaker 2>thoughts to another anyway. Don't gang up on me. That's

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<v Speaker 2>all I'm saying on our agenda for to Claire, what

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<v Speaker 2>have you.

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<v Speaker 3>Got the Melinda Gates comments about the Epstein Files that

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<v Speaker 3>I cannot stop thinking about and Bianca Ston. Sorry, we

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<v Speaker 3>need to talk about the profile that was in Vanity Fair.

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<v Speaker 3>She is the wife of Yee, formerly known as Kanye West.

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<v Speaker 1>Yay, yay?

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<v Speaker 2>Is it? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 3>I don't like having her.

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<v Speaker 2>She's a corrector, yay.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. We talked about this on Friday show. That was

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<v Speaker 3>actually really rude.

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<v Speaker 2>How you just corrected me?

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<v Speaker 3>Yay formerly known as Kanye West. She is finally ready

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<v Speaker 3>to speak. There is just one problem and.

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<v Speaker 2>Also dozer recipe to eats and recognizing the particular agony

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<v Speaker 2>of losing a pet.

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<v Speaker 3>But first, as we are recording this episode, the super

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<v Speaker 3>Bowl is occurring. It is we don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>We're calling it the Benito Bowl.

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<v Speaker 3>Friends, Okay, yes, because of our friend bad.

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<v Speaker 2>Money, Bad Bunny, And we're going to get into who

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<v Speaker 2>why in case you're not across mister Bunny all of that.

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<v Speaker 3>But the out louders have just let out a collective

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<v Speaker 3>squeal because there has been imagery of friends of the Pod,

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<v Speaker 3>Lewis Hamilton and Kim kardash In in the audience together

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<v Speaker 3>on a date there. I think I've seen three to

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<v Speaker 3>four seconds of footage, and I'm feeling a lot of feelings.

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<v Speaker 2>Jessie, it must be serious, because that is a serious

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<v Speaker 2>coming out date.

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<v Speaker 5>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>You do not take someone to the Super Bowl with

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<v Speaker 2>every camera in the world unless you're like, well.

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<v Speaker 3>They look really happy.

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<v Speaker 2>We kissing.

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<v Speaker 3>They look I see happiness in his eyes. I see

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<v Speaker 3>I see joy. She's feeling herself. She's feeling Yeah, she's

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<v Speaker 3>feeling herself. I just think the out louders are really

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<v Speaker 3>mad that I didn't know he was short. I can

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<v Speaker 3>see when they sit next to each other that he's

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<v Speaker 3>not a tall man, but she's tiny. But she's tiny,

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<v Speaker 3>which I think is fine.

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<v Speaker 2>We need to move off that and not onto what's

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<v Speaker 2>happening on the field with the football, because let's be honest,

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<v Speaker 2>that's not our specialty. It's not even Australian football. We

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<v Speaker 2>don't understand it, not even English football. I don't even know.

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<v Speaker 2>But what we do care about is Benita, mister bad bunny.

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<v Speaker 2>It is Super Bowl today, it's Super Bowl Sunday, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's Monday. But you know what I mean, right, And

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<v Speaker 2>by the time you're listening to this, it's all happened already.

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<v Speaker 2>And I couldn't tell you who was playing in it.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know because Travis Kelsey wasn't involved, So therefore

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<v Speaker 2>my pop culture references did not coincide. But I need

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<v Speaker 2>to give you a very quick introduction to a man

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<v Speaker 2>whose face and potentially other body parts you have seen

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<v Speaker 2>everywhere today, Bad Bunny.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, I know who he is, to be clear, but

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<v Speaker 3>my mum would be asking who and what is a

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<v Speaker 3>bad Yes, exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>So if you woke up this morning and you were like,

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<v Speaker 2>but all Bunny's bad in this case, yes, Bunny is

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<v Speaker 2>very bad in the old fashioned nineteen eighties meaning of

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<v Speaker 2>the word bad meaning good. He's really bad as in good.

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<v Speaker 3>He's also hot, which isn't relevant.

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<v Speaker 2>Really hot, so it is also if you're not fully

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<v Speaker 2>across Bad Bunny, whose real name, by the way, is

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<v Speaker 2>Benito Antonio Martinez Orcasio. He is the most streamed artist

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<v Speaker 2>in the world. Last year he had more streams than

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<v Speaker 2>anyone else, Yes, including Taylor Swift. He is huge.

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<v Speaker 3>I've gotta not laugh because of the video.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll get to that later. Cheat sheets. Things you need

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<v Speaker 2>to know about Bad Bunny is that he's from Puerto Rico.

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<v Speaker 2>He grew up in a small town there. Puerto Rico

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<v Speaker 2>is in the Caribbean. It's a collection of Irelands. It's

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<v Speaker 2>an American territory, so it's not like part of America,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's governed by America and its citizens are American citizens,

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<v Speaker 2>so he is an American citizen, which is a bit

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<v Speaker 2>hawcs for the Mega people who keep being like, why

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<v Speaker 2>was a foreigner headlining the super Bowl? Ah?

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, bad argument, not a.

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<v Speaker 2>Foreigner, but also didn't seem to mind when Coldplay were

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<v Speaker 2>doing it. But anyway, other famous Puerto Ricans for context, j.

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<v Speaker 3>Loo, she's done the super Bowl.

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<v Speaker 2>She has done the Super Bowl. She with her friendship

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<v Speaker 2>Ricky Martin. He might have done the super Bowl and

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<v Speaker 2>they claim him they do. Manuel Miranda Benicio del Toro AOC.

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<v Speaker 2>Lots of people, very talented people be for Puerto Rico.

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<v Speaker 2>So mister Bunny as we shall call him, sings in

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<v Speaker 2>Spanish only. Now. Lots of crossover Latin stars over the

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<v Speaker 2>years who've become big deals in America in the English

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<v Speaker 2>speaking world have also released songs in English. He has not,

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<v Speaker 2>He says he never will. He says he doesn't care

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<v Speaker 2>if you understand his songs or not if you don't

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<v Speaker 2>speak Spanish. This is how he communicates his music and

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<v Speaker 2>he does it very very well. That's hot. It's really

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<v Speaker 2>like everything about that bunny is very hot. Traditionally, the

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<v Speaker 2>music he makes might be called reggaeton, that's what it

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<v Speaker 2>was called, this kind of breakthrough mix of like Jamaican

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<v Speaker 2>dancehall and hip hop and Latin Caribbean music. And when

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<v Speaker 2>he became a really big deal, he moved to America.

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<v Speaker 2>He moved to the Hollywood Hills and he started dating

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<v Speaker 2>Kendall Jenna. That's where many of us might have bumped

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<v Speaker 2>into him. Culturally.

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<v Speaker 3>For me, that just ran into like a whole lot

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<v Speaker 3>of names of people who have dated Kardashians and Jenna's

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<v Speaker 3>that I can't differentiate. So I'm glad you're kind of

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<v Speaker 3>spelling this out.

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<v Speaker 2>They didn't go out for all that long, by the way.

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<v Speaker 2>And apparently the way the story goes is that after

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<v Speaker 2>that kind of period, like that was his kind of

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<v Speaker 2>Hollywood period, right, and then he moved back to Puerto Rico.

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<v Speaker 2>He made the album that is just when the Grammy

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<v Speaker 2>of the Album of the Year for which is called

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<v Speaker 2>DeBie Tara Masfhoto, which loosely translates as I should have

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<v Speaker 2>taken more photos And it's kind of like a breakup album.

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<v Speaker 2>That's also about home. So maybe it could be about Kendallwi.

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<v Speaker 2>Probably not, And it's very much about like I should

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<v Speaker 2>have embraced the moment more. And it's sort of mashed

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<v Speaker 2>in with all these traditional rooms and it has been massive.

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<v Speaker 3>And the irony is like I hear all of this,

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<v Speaker 3>and it's like, how has an artist who spans continents

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<v Speaker 3>and like is just widely popular and beloved, How is

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<v Speaker 3>he at the center of a culture war?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, here we go, just in case you haven't heard

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<v Speaker 2>Bad Money, I'm going to play you a tiny bit

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<v Speaker 2>of his most famous song at the moment, and it's

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<v Speaker 2>called d T MF. You know it. Here's a little

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<v Speaker 2>tiny bit of it. Okay, we got it. We're on board.

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<v Speaker 2>The reason he's ended up in the middle of a

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<v Speaker 2>culture is because America, for a start, right over the

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<v Speaker 2>last few years, the person who organizes who performs at

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<v Speaker 2>the super Bowl halftime it's jay Z. Jay Z's Rock

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<v Speaker 2>Nation runs the super Bowl halftime show. They have done

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<v Speaker 2>that since the first one they did was j Loo Shakira.

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<v Speaker 2>Then they've done Usher, they did that amazing one with

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<v Speaker 2>all the West Coast hip hop with Dr Dre, and

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<v Speaker 2>they did Kendrick and this year Bad Bunny, and it's

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<v Speaker 2>largely seen as a bit of a nod to let

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<v Speaker 2>the NFL want to remain relevant cool reflect the multicultural

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<v Speaker 2>nature of their fans because of America multicultural nation, lots

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<v Speaker 2>of different people play and watch football. But also it

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<v Speaker 2>means that very often there's a little bit of friction,

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<v Speaker 2>like a little bit of like, we're gonna like mess

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<v Speaker 2>things up a bit here. We're not just gonna give

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<v Speaker 2>you country stars and pop stars every time. So this

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<v Speaker 2>year it's landed in a very feebro moment because Bad

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<v Speaker 2>Bunny is not a particularly political person, but in the

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<v Speaker 2>last couple of years he has been quite a critic

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<v Speaker 2>of Trump, and he is really supportive of Puerto Ricans,

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<v Speaker 2>and he's really against Ice and all the anti immigration rhetoric.

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<v Speaker 3>Well even the politics of speaking Spanish in America right

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<v Speaker 3>now with the Ice raids. Like whether or not he

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<v Speaker 3>wanted to be political is kind of enforced exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>So when he became the biggest person in the world

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<v Speaker 2>last year, he could have gone, everyone says, on a

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<v Speaker 2>massive stadium tour like Tata and made hundreds of millions,

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<v Speaker 2>but he went, no, you know what I'm gonna do

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<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna build a place in Puerto Rico, do a

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<v Speaker 2>ten week residency and if you want to come see me,

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<v Speaker 2>you come to Puerto Rico, put money into the economy

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<v Speaker 2>here and everybody did. All the famous people went. You've

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<v Speaker 2>all seen John Hamm going ham as it were at

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<v Speaker 2>the concerts.

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<v Speaker 3>Speaking of John ham you just because you showed me

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<v Speaker 3>just a lovely video for my Monday morning morning, can

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<v Speaker 3>you just talk to me about the relevance of bad

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<v Speaker 3>bunnies thrusting.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't want to be a creep. I don't want

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<v Speaker 2>to objectify mister bunny. I don't want to suggest anything

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<v Speaker 2>about anything except that if you watch some of the

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<v Speaker 2>videos from that residency where he's gyrating, where he is

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<v Speaker 2>gyrating clearly perhaps unrestrained by under Okay, it's pretty exciting.

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<v Speaker 4>Do you think that upsets the MAGA people.

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<v Speaker 2>I think they don't like that. They don't like the spanishness,

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<v Speaker 2>they don't like the fact that. So for example, when

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<v Speaker 2>he won his big award at the Grammys last week,

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<v Speaker 2>he did speak out against ice. He also said, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we are not He was talking about Puerto Ricans, obviously,

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<v Speaker 2>and he was like, we're not savage. We're not animals,

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<v Speaker 2>we're not aliens. We are humans and we are Americans.

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<v Speaker 2>That would not necessarily seem like an outrageous thing to say,

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<v Speaker 2>but where it lands now anyway, So lots of pressure

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<v Speaker 2>on mister Bunny for the halftime show. Is he going

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<v Speaker 2>to be political? Is he going to be polytical? You

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<v Speaker 2>would know that by now because it will have happened.

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<v Speaker 3>But unfortunately for bad Bunny, there is a competitor. There's

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<v Speaker 3>another super Bowl happening, and who is headlining that?

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<v Speaker 2>So Turning Point USA, which is the charity run by

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<v Speaker 2>Erica Kirk after the widow of Charlie Kirk, they decided

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<v Speaker 2>to put on at the same time what they are

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<v Speaker 2>calling an alternative all American halftime show with a couple

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<v Speaker 2>of country singers and Kid Rock as headliner.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't want to watch that one, rather watch they.

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<v Speaker 2>There will be too many underpans. Do we feel that

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<v Speaker 2>we know now who Benito is? Oh?

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, and I'm very excited. I'm very excited to watch

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<v Speaker 3>this halftime show as soon as we're out of this studio. Same,

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<v Speaker 3>I am desperate to talk about Melinda Gates. So it's

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<v Speaker 3>been just over a week since the release of millions

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<v Speaker 3>of files relating to late convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein

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<v Speaker 3>and his correspondents with some of the world's most powerful men.

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<v Speaker 3>We talked about ailon Musk on last Monday show. The

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<v Speaker 3>sheer volume of the files is overwhelming and sickening, but

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<v Speaker 3>among them is a draft email written by Epstein claiming

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<v Speaker 3>that tech billionaire Bill Gates contracted a sexually transmitted disease

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<v Speaker 3>after sleeping with Russian girls. That's how he's written it,

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<v Speaker 3>and had asked Epstein to get him antibiotics to secretly

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<v Speaker 3>give to his then wife. Days after the files were released,

0:11:39.194 --> 0:11:43.794
<v Speaker 3>Bill Gates's ex wife, Melinda Gates, was interviewed on MPR's

0:11:43.994 --> 0:11:47.234
<v Speaker 3>wild Card podcast, and here's a bit of what she said.

0:11:47.554 --> 0:11:50.674
<v Speaker 1>For me, it's personally hard whenever those details come up,

0:11:50.794 --> 0:11:56.274
<v Speaker 1>right because brings back memories of some very very painful

0:11:56.314 --> 0:11:59.074
<v Speaker 1>times in my marriage. But I have moved on from that.

0:12:00.234 --> 0:12:04.274
<v Speaker 1>I purposely pushed it away and I moved on.

0:12:04.514 --> 0:12:05.754
<v Speaker 2>I'm in a really.

0:12:05.994 --> 0:12:11.034
<v Speaker 1>Unexpected, beautiful place in my life. So whatever questions remain

0:12:11.114 --> 0:12:13.954
<v Speaker 1>there of what I don't can't even begin to know

0:12:14.034 --> 0:12:16.634
<v Speaker 1>all of it. Those questions are for those people and

0:12:16.674 --> 0:12:18.953
<v Speaker 1>from even my ex husband. They need to answer to

0:12:18.994 --> 0:12:22.474
<v Speaker 1>those things, not me well, and I am so happy

0:12:22.514 --> 0:12:27.154
<v Speaker 1>to be away from all the muck that it was there.

0:12:27.514 --> 0:12:31.514
<v Speaker 3>Later in the week, Bill Gates did answer to the allegations.

0:12:31.754 --> 0:12:34.754
<v Speaker 3>He said the claims in the email were false and

0:12:34.834 --> 0:12:38.354
<v Speaker 3>he didn't know what Epstein was thinking there. But Melinda

0:12:38.394 --> 0:12:42.514
<v Speaker 3>Gates publicly weighing in begs the question what do we

0:12:42.594 --> 0:12:46.674
<v Speaker 3>owe an X and are we culpable for their sins?

0:12:46.874 --> 0:12:52.034
<v Speaker 2>Holly, I think Melinda Gates is in a really tricky

0:12:52.074 --> 0:12:54.874
<v Speaker 2>position here, and I think she's carrying herself with a

0:12:54.874 --> 0:13:00.554
<v Speaker 2>lot of class. So I interviewed flex I introd I

0:13:00.754 --> 0:13:03.594
<v Speaker 2>Introdude that was like that too. She was really impressed

0:13:03.594 --> 0:13:07.674
<v Speaker 2>with that. I interviewed Melinda French Gates last year when

0:13:07.674 --> 0:13:09.394
<v Speaker 2>her book came out the next day, which is all

0:13:09.434 --> 0:13:14.154
<v Speaker 2>about rebuilding after trauma or after big changes and transitions, right,

0:13:14.834 --> 0:13:17.114
<v Speaker 2>And in that book she speaks kind and obviously I

0:13:17.154 --> 0:13:20.514
<v Speaker 2>read the book, she speaks kind of obliquely about the

0:13:20.554 --> 0:13:22.394
<v Speaker 2>fact that after her and Bill were together for a

0:13:22.394 --> 0:13:24.874
<v Speaker 2>really long time, they had three kids, they've built this

0:13:24.954 --> 0:13:27.994
<v Speaker 2>huge foundation together that she was running and very much

0:13:28.034 --> 0:13:31.474
<v Speaker 2>part of. She's kind of clear about the fact there

0:13:31.514 --> 0:13:34.994
<v Speaker 2>was just stuff going on that she could no longer ignore. Like,

0:13:35.074 --> 0:13:37.514
<v Speaker 2>reading between the lines, you kind of got the impression

0:13:37.554 --> 0:13:41.194
<v Speaker 2>that she tolerated a certain amount of things. That's not

0:13:41.234 --> 0:13:43.354
<v Speaker 2>what she says, but that's kind of the impression you get.

0:13:43.674 --> 0:13:45.354
<v Speaker 3>He admitted to an affair, Yes.

0:13:45.194 --> 0:13:48.394
<v Speaker 2>He admitted to an affair, and then it became untenable

0:13:48.474 --> 0:13:50.674
<v Speaker 2>for her, is the vibe that you get. And as

0:13:50.714 --> 0:13:54.394
<v Speaker 2>this muck literal muck is coming out, I think we're

0:13:54.394 --> 0:13:55.953
<v Speaker 2>beginning to get a picture of what that might have

0:13:56.034 --> 0:14:00.474
<v Speaker 2>been like. I think it's really hard because she is,

0:14:00.674 --> 0:14:04.474
<v Speaker 2>without doubt, a deeply principled, serious person. She comes across

0:14:04.474 --> 0:14:06.154
<v Speaker 2>that way. She's like that when you talk to her.

0:14:06.194 --> 0:14:10.194
<v Speaker 2>She's very head girl energy. She was a computer science major.

0:14:10.274 --> 0:14:14.034
<v Speaker 2>She's so brainy. She obviously believed so deeply in everything

0:14:14.074 --> 0:14:17.274
<v Speaker 2>they'd built together, and she doesn't want to trash the

0:14:17.314 --> 0:14:20.274
<v Speaker 2>father of her kids. But on the other hand, this

0:14:20.354 --> 0:14:23.514
<v Speaker 2>stuff coming out is so horrendous. I think it puts

0:14:24.474 --> 0:14:27.554
<v Speaker 2>the women in these men's lives in a really difficult position.

0:14:27.834 --> 0:14:30.274
<v Speaker 3>She didn't have to acknowledge it, and I don't think

0:14:30.314 --> 0:14:35.314
<v Speaker 3>that answering to your ex's potential misdeeds or allegations against

0:14:35.314 --> 0:14:37.914
<v Speaker 3>them is on you to answer. So the fact she

0:14:37.994 --> 0:14:41.434
<v Speaker 3>did is clearly like she was comfortable making a statement.

0:14:41.794 --> 0:14:44.754
<v Speaker 3>But I keep thinking. There was a brilliant column by

0:14:44.994 --> 0:14:48.834
<v Speaker 3>Julia Baird published by the ABS over the weekend about

0:14:48.914 --> 0:14:53.674
<v Speaker 3>how these are meant to be, like the names that

0:14:53.714 --> 0:14:57.354
<v Speaker 3>come up in this, from Deepak ch Opra to Nome

0:14:57.434 --> 0:15:01.474
<v Speaker 3>Chompsky to Bill Gates, these are meant to be the

0:15:01.514 --> 0:15:07.874
<v Speaker 3>brightest minds that the planet has potentially ever seen. Right,

0:15:08.634 --> 0:15:15.874
<v Speaker 3>and yet these men had allegedly no idea that Jeffrey Epstein,

0:15:15.874 --> 0:15:21.234
<v Speaker 3>who is at this stage been accused of sex trafficking assault,

0:15:21.754 --> 0:15:26.954
<v Speaker 3>basically victimizing more than one thousand women. The fact that

0:15:27.074 --> 0:15:30.634
<v Speaker 3>none of those men have willfully come forward and said,

0:15:30.914 --> 0:15:32.954
<v Speaker 3>you know what, I did smell that something was off.

0:15:32.994 --> 0:15:37.634
<v Speaker 3>They've all gone what, which is interesting given that so

0:15:37.874 --> 0:15:41.994
<v Speaker 3>many women, including Melinda Gates, have come out and said

0:15:42.914 --> 0:15:44.954
<v Speaker 3>I felt it, I saw it. So Melinda Gates in

0:15:44.994 --> 0:15:48.034
<v Speaker 3>twenty twenty two told Gail King that she'd met with

0:15:48.234 --> 0:15:51.314
<v Speaker 3>Epstein one time because she wanted to see what kind

0:15:51.354 --> 0:15:53.314
<v Speaker 3>of man he was, and she said, I regretted it

0:15:53.394 --> 0:15:55.274
<v Speaker 3>the second I walked in the door. He was a Borrn.

0:15:55.434 --> 0:15:58.354
<v Speaker 3>He was evil personified. I had nightmares about it afterwards.

0:15:58.794 --> 0:16:02.394
<v Speaker 3>How is it that the dozens and dozens potentially hundreds

0:16:02.594 --> 0:16:05.714
<v Speaker 3>of men that come up in the files never say

0:16:05.794 --> 0:16:11.514
<v Speaker 3>anything like that. This isn't just like you know, normal guys.

0:16:11.554 --> 0:16:15.674
<v Speaker 3>They're meant to be real, like business entrepreneurs and like

0:16:15.714 --> 0:16:18.634
<v Speaker 3>they read people really well and they're running the world,

0:16:18.714 --> 0:16:20.914
<v Speaker 3>and yet they can't tell when they're sitting across from

0:16:20.954 --> 0:16:24.234
<v Speaker 3>a sexual predator. There was no critical thinking. And I

0:16:24.234 --> 0:16:26.754
<v Speaker 3>mean the important thing is that he was convicted by

0:16:26.754 --> 0:16:29.714
<v Speaker 3>the time. Yeah, these a lot of the more acknowledging

0:16:29.834 --> 0:16:31.034
<v Speaker 3>that in their correspondence.

0:16:31.234 --> 0:16:31.794
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:16:31.914 --> 0:16:35.794
<v Speaker 3>The person that I'm obsessed with in this situation as

0:16:35.834 --> 0:16:39.034
<v Speaker 3>well is award winning writer and editor in chief Tina Brown,

0:16:39.474 --> 0:16:41.794
<v Speaker 3>who wrote on her sub stack that when she was

0:16:41.954 --> 0:16:44.514
<v Speaker 3>editor of The Daily Beast in twenty ten, she got

0:16:44.514 --> 0:16:48.034
<v Speaker 3>a call from a pr person asking her to come

0:16:48.074 --> 0:16:51.794
<v Speaker 3>to dinner with then Prince Andrew. It was hosted by

0:16:51.794 --> 0:16:55.394
<v Speaker 3>Epstein and Woody Allen would also be attending. Her response

0:16:55.714 --> 0:16:58.234
<v Speaker 3>is iconic. She said, what the F is this?

0:16:58.394 --> 0:16:58.794
<v Speaker 4>Peggy?

0:16:58.994 --> 0:17:02.674
<v Speaker 3>The pedophiles ball? And I just think, why were men

0:17:02.794 --> 0:17:04.434
<v Speaker 3>not reacting like that?

0:17:04.714 --> 0:17:07.674
<v Speaker 2>The most cynical read answer to that question because they

0:17:07.714 --> 0:17:10.714
<v Speaker 2>don't care that, you know that what was clearly being

0:17:10.714 --> 0:17:12.314
<v Speaker 2>built by epsy. And we talked about this a bit

0:17:12.474 --> 0:17:16.074
<v Speaker 2>last week. Last Monday, he was obviously scratching the backs

0:17:16.074 --> 0:17:19.314
<v Speaker 2>of enough powerful people and an important enough connector fundraiser,

0:17:19.394 --> 0:17:24.714
<v Speaker 2>benefactor that his peccadillos as they saw them, like oh

0:17:24.794 --> 0:17:27.114
<v Speaker 2>maybe he's I mean, like, this is a generous read.

0:17:27.274 --> 0:17:29.314
<v Speaker 2>Let me just put that out there, A very generous

0:17:29.354 --> 0:17:32.073
<v Speaker 2>read of like, oh maybe he's a bit and wouldn't

0:17:32.114 --> 0:17:34.313
<v Speaker 2>leave your daughter with him kind of thing was not

0:17:34.434 --> 0:17:37.114
<v Speaker 2>important enough to them in the scheme of things for

0:17:37.234 --> 0:17:42.354
<v Speaker 2>them to feel that they had to distance themselves, and that, unfortunately,

0:17:42.514 --> 0:17:44.593
<v Speaker 2>is a pattern you see played out a lot in

0:17:44.634 --> 0:17:46.554
<v Speaker 2>these kind of circles where it's like, so he's not

0:17:46.594 --> 0:17:49.034
<v Speaker 2>great with women, whatever that might mean, and that could

0:17:49.114 --> 0:17:51.754
<v Speaker 2>mean anything from maybe just not a good boyfriend to

0:17:52.114 --> 0:17:55.033
<v Speaker 2>downright abusive. But hey, you know he's important, he'll get

0:17:55.074 --> 0:17:57.514
<v Speaker 2>things done, he's a connector, you know, he's an important guy.

0:17:58.194 --> 0:18:01.514
<v Speaker 2>I feel for the wives, except for the ones who

0:18:01.554 --> 0:18:06.234
<v Speaker 2>seemed clearly complicit, like perhaps Sarah Ferguson, former Duchess of York,

0:18:06.234 --> 0:18:09.434
<v Speaker 2>whose emails jest that she was very close to Epstein

0:18:09.554 --> 0:18:11.914
<v Speaker 2>and she relied on him for lots of things.

0:18:11.794 --> 0:18:14.314
<v Speaker 3>Which is at odds with what she said publicly.

0:18:14.874 --> 0:18:17.834
<v Speaker 2>And also I feel for the adult daughters of these men,

0:18:17.994 --> 0:18:20.754
<v Speaker 2>I really do, because I think there's a particular betrayal,

0:18:20.834 --> 0:18:23.794
<v Speaker 2>and that includes obviously princesses Eugenie Beatrice who seemed to

0:18:23.834 --> 0:18:26.354
<v Speaker 2>be having quite different reactions to what's going on with

0:18:26.394 --> 0:18:29.234
<v Speaker 2>their dad, but to Bill Gates's kids too. I think

0:18:29.274 --> 0:18:33.714
<v Speaker 2>there's a particular betrayal that young women feel understanding that

0:18:33.754 --> 0:18:37.194
<v Speaker 2>their dads could or did or do treat other young

0:18:37.194 --> 0:18:41.074
<v Speaker 2>women in at best a dismissive way and at worst

0:18:41.074 --> 0:18:45.194
<v Speaker 2>a potentially abusive way. I think that's a really difficult

0:18:45.514 --> 0:18:48.394
<v Speaker 2>head scramble, and I just do have a lot of

0:18:48.394 --> 0:18:50.954
<v Speaker 2>empathy for those young women as well as obviously more

0:18:50.994 --> 0:18:54.354
<v Speaker 2>and most empathy always to the victims who keep being

0:18:54.754 --> 0:18:58.314
<v Speaker 2>thrown under the bus, named rolled out to give evidence

0:18:58.314 --> 0:18:59.474
<v Speaker 2>in situations.

0:18:58.994 --> 0:19:02.594
<v Speaker 3>Well well, other names are redacted. And Melinda Gates actually

0:19:02.834 --> 0:19:04.754
<v Speaker 3>in that statement, she goes on to say when she's

0:19:04.794 --> 0:19:06.634
<v Speaker 3>talking in the podcast, and I'm pretty sure that every

0:19:06.634 --> 0:19:09.674
<v Speaker 3>time she's made just talked about the victims and the

0:19:09.794 --> 0:19:13.074
<v Speaker 3>men who have come out to clear their names and go.

0:19:13.074 --> 0:19:13.714
<v Speaker 2>I didn't know.

0:19:13.874 --> 0:19:16.834
<v Speaker 4>I didn't even get that email. I was manipulated.

0:19:17.714 --> 0:19:22.354
<v Speaker 3>Most men never ever acknowledge that there even were victims.

0:19:22.474 --> 0:19:24.714
<v Speaker 3>It's more about clearing their names. Their own name. And

0:19:25.554 --> 0:19:28.273
<v Speaker 3>as you were saying, Jesse, about these are meant to

0:19:28.314 --> 0:19:33.754
<v Speaker 3>be intelligent, successful, high functioning men. Bill Gates's response didn't

0:19:33.794 --> 0:19:37.154
<v Speaker 3>even make sense, like that the email was false. I

0:19:37.194 --> 0:19:41.033
<v Speaker 3>don't know why Epstein did that. Can you give some

0:19:41.194 --> 0:19:44.714
<v Speaker 3>kind of insight into why you were close with this person?

0:19:44.954 --> 0:19:46.714
<v Speaker 3>And this is why this trial feels like, I said,

0:19:46.754 --> 0:19:50.314
<v Speaker 3>such a standstill, because it's like someone here knows something.

0:19:50.394 --> 0:19:55.234
<v Speaker 3>Come on, who saw andrew on all fours? Who saw

0:19:55.514 --> 0:19:57.914
<v Speaker 3>like something at a party that you walked in? And

0:19:57.954 --> 0:19:59.474
<v Speaker 3>a few people have come out and said, I saw

0:19:59.474 --> 0:20:01.314
<v Speaker 3>something at a party that was a little bit weird.

0:20:01.314 --> 0:20:04.194
<v Speaker 3>But it's like they're holding hands and deciding not to speak,

0:20:04.674 --> 0:20:07.674
<v Speaker 3>which some people have come out and said, it's almost

0:20:07.674 --> 0:20:11.114
<v Speaker 3>like this QAnon thing that was coming out years ago

0:20:11.194 --> 0:20:15.313
<v Speaker 3>with the tinfoil hats is coming true. The idea that

0:20:15.314 --> 0:20:19.834
<v Speaker 3>there's some kind of elite pedophile ring running the world.

0:20:20.114 --> 0:20:22.954
<v Speaker 3>There seems to be some credibility to that, and at

0:20:22.994 --> 0:20:25.354
<v Speaker 3>what point are they going to drop each other's hands

0:20:25.434 --> 0:20:27.074
<v Speaker 3>and start telling on each.

0:20:26.954 --> 0:20:30.434
<v Speaker 2>Other on the fact of women with terrible exes?

0:20:30.514 --> 0:20:30.674
<v Speaker 1>Right?

0:20:30.714 --> 0:20:33.074
<v Speaker 2>And I know that's a very broad spectrum, but this

0:20:33.194 --> 0:20:38.314
<v Speaker 2>rumor about the STI is so upsetting and so awful

0:20:38.674 --> 0:20:42.074
<v Speaker 2>and humiliating, exactly humiliating. And if that was you, you would

0:20:42.154 --> 0:20:43.874
<v Speaker 2>hate for that to be out there. But the thing

0:20:43.914 --> 0:20:46.634
<v Speaker 2>that is really important that she has said, and I

0:20:46.674 --> 0:20:49.274
<v Speaker 2>think is so important that we all get our heads

0:20:49.314 --> 0:20:51.914
<v Speaker 2>around again and again and again. The shame is not hers.

0:20:52.154 --> 0:20:54.674
<v Speaker 2>The shame is his. If that story is true. Maybe

0:20:54.674 --> 0:20:57.793
<v Speaker 2>it is, maybe it isn't. The shame is not hers.

0:20:57.834 --> 0:21:01.314
<v Speaker 2>The humiliation shouldn't be hers. It's his entirely, And there's

0:21:01.314 --> 0:21:05.754
<v Speaker 2>no reason for her to hang ahead or go silent

0:21:05.994 --> 0:21:09.033
<v Speaker 2>or any of those things. I think we've just got

0:21:09.114 --> 0:21:12.234
<v Speaker 2>to keep pushing that shame back that everybody always wants

0:21:12.234 --> 0:21:14.514
<v Speaker 2>to put on women, Like how embarrassing for you? That's

0:21:14.554 --> 0:21:17.554
<v Speaker 2>awful for you, poor you. It's like what about that guy?

0:21:17.874 --> 0:21:20.793
<v Speaker 2>You know? So I have a lot of respect for

0:21:20.834 --> 0:21:23.554
<v Speaker 2>the fact that she addressed it. Even though she did

0:21:23.594 --> 0:21:27.793
<v Speaker 2>so in the most careful, liber and emotional terms that

0:21:27.834 --> 0:21:30.513
<v Speaker 2>she could, her voice was heard.

0:21:30.474 --> 0:21:33.434
<v Speaker 3>And the fact that she said the questions are for

0:21:33.514 --> 0:21:37.033
<v Speaker 3>those men. That was an understated thing to say, but

0:21:37.114 --> 0:21:40.073
<v Speaker 3>there are still so many men named in there that

0:21:40.114 --> 0:21:43.274
<v Speaker 3>have not even acknowledged it, or who have previously said

0:21:43.314 --> 0:21:47.114
<v Speaker 3>things that are now completely proved to not be true

0:21:47.594 --> 0:21:51.274
<v Speaker 3>and don't seem to need to confront that publicly.

0:21:51.874 --> 0:21:52.394
<v Speaker 4>I agree.

0:21:52.434 --> 0:21:54.154
<v Speaker 3>I think we've had this rhetoric for the last few

0:21:54.234 --> 0:21:58.154
<v Speaker 3>years about believe women, believe women, and it's become almost mocked.

0:21:58.594 --> 0:22:00.234
<v Speaker 3>And then you look at this and you go, there

0:22:00.274 --> 0:22:03.593
<v Speaker 3>are so many women who have come forward. Epstein has

0:22:03.634 --> 0:22:07.034
<v Speaker 3>been found to have been a convicted sex offender in Call,

0:22:07.794 --> 0:22:11.034
<v Speaker 3>and yet all of those women were not believed until

0:22:11.154 --> 0:22:14.834
<v Speaker 3>these documents came out. And even still, I don't think

0:22:14.834 --> 0:22:17.154
<v Speaker 3>we're getting the reckoning that I would like to see.

0:22:18.434 --> 0:22:21.994
<v Speaker 2>After the break recipes and eats Dozer and how the

0:22:22.034 --> 0:22:24.354
<v Speaker 2>loss of a pet really really matters.

0:22:28.554 --> 0:22:31.273
<v Speaker 5>It's mea out louders and I'm back in your ears

0:22:31.314 --> 0:22:35.914
<v Speaker 5>twice a week on Tuesdays and Thursdays exclusively for Muma

0:22:35.954 --> 0:22:38.554
<v Speaker 5>Miya subscribers, and this week I want to talk about

0:22:38.554 --> 0:22:39.194
<v Speaker 5>some weird shit.

0:22:39.474 --> 0:22:41.114
<v Speaker 2>First of all, the weird shit that.

0:22:41.114 --> 0:22:45.434
<v Speaker 5>Comes with the way different generations parent who is on

0:22:45.474 --> 0:22:48.354
<v Speaker 5>top of the leaderboard? Is it x's, is it boomers

0:22:48.834 --> 0:22:51.594
<v Speaker 5>or is it millennials? Holly Jesse and I have such

0:22:51.634 --> 0:22:54.594
<v Speaker 5>an interesting chat about that, and you'll be shocked to

0:22:54.634 --> 0:22:58.354
<v Speaker 5>hear we don't agree. And then I'm desperate to talk

0:22:58.394 --> 0:23:01.994
<v Speaker 5>to you about the deeply weird twin shit that's going

0:23:02.034 --> 0:23:05.954
<v Speaker 5>on around here, so weird, and we have a bit

0:23:05.994 --> 0:23:09.154
<v Speaker 5>of a surprise that's coming on Thursday, if I can

0:23:09.194 --> 0:23:11.634
<v Speaker 5>wait that long. So, if you're not already a subscriber,

0:23:12.074 --> 0:23:14.474
<v Speaker 5>follow the link in the show notes to get us

0:23:14.514 --> 0:23:16.754
<v Speaker 5>in your ears five days a week and you will

0:23:16.794 --> 0:23:19.234
<v Speaker 5>be the first to hear some great gossip.

0:23:20.794 --> 0:23:24.634
<v Speaker 2>A very famous Australian dog has died, and we need

0:23:24.674 --> 0:23:27.914
<v Speaker 2>to talk about the very specific grief of losing a pet.

0:23:28.714 --> 0:23:31.474
<v Speaker 2>If you've ever clicked on a recipe to eats recipe

0:23:31.554 --> 0:23:35.513
<v Speaker 2>or bought one of Nagi Mahashi's million selling cookbooks, you

0:23:35.634 --> 0:23:39.434
<v Speaker 2>know who Dosa is because Doza is all over recipe.

0:23:39.514 --> 0:23:43.114
<v Speaker 2>He eats, his face is on the cookbooks on the website.

0:23:43.234 --> 0:23:46.194
<v Speaker 2>He's always at any of her public events. He's been

0:23:46.194 --> 0:23:48.114
<v Speaker 2>on play School, he's been on the cover of the

0:23:48.114 --> 0:23:50.553
<v Speaker 2>Big Issue. Because Nagi has a big charitable arm with

0:23:50.634 --> 0:23:53.714
<v Speaker 2>recipes in the kitchen. He's been you know, in a

0:23:53.834 --> 0:23:58.754
<v Speaker 2>children's book. He's a very famous dog. Last week, Nagi

0:23:58.874 --> 0:24:01.914
<v Speaker 2>shared that he was really, really unwell, that he'd entered

0:24:01.994 --> 0:24:04.994
<v Speaker 2>veterinary I see you on January the twenty second with

0:24:05.074 --> 0:24:09.154
<v Speaker 2>a double lung infection. She posted at the time that

0:24:09.194 --> 0:24:11.554
<v Speaker 2>she was going to take a step back from work

0:24:11.594 --> 0:24:13.474
<v Speaker 2>for a little while to be with him. She said,

0:24:13.474 --> 0:24:15.514
<v Speaker 2>I've cried a thousand tears and there's a million more

0:24:15.554 --> 0:24:19.114
<v Speaker 2>to come. He died last Thursday, February the fifth, and

0:24:19.194 --> 0:24:22.754
<v Speaker 2>she announced it on her socials yesterday. The post, which

0:24:22.794 --> 0:24:26.154
<v Speaker 2>was a beautiful video of Doza, just said, he didn't

0:24:26.154 --> 0:24:30.354
<v Speaker 2>make it. My heart is shattered. Look, the loss of

0:24:30.354 --> 0:24:33.114
<v Speaker 2>a pet is extremely common grief. Everyone around this table

0:24:33.154 --> 0:24:35.274
<v Speaker 2>has experienced it, and I'm sure most of the out

0:24:35.314 --> 0:24:39.074
<v Speaker 2>louders listening to this have Why is it a grief

0:24:39.114 --> 0:24:41.994
<v Speaker 2>that we downplay a bit? And do we agree with

0:24:42.034 --> 0:24:44.554
<v Speaker 2>this article that I read on the ABC last week

0:24:44.594 --> 0:24:49.234
<v Speaker 2>that said recipe Tineat's Nagi Mahashi is normalizing taking time

0:24:49.274 --> 0:24:52.513
<v Speaker 2>off for pets. Here's why that matters in it. A

0:24:52.514 --> 0:24:55.474
<v Speaker 2>psychologist called Amanda Ferguson was quoted as saying, if people

0:24:55.514 --> 0:24:57.714
<v Speaker 2>don't take the time they need to grieve a sick

0:24:57.794 --> 0:25:00.434
<v Speaker 2>or dying pet, it can be detrimental to their mental

0:25:00.434 --> 0:25:03.274
<v Speaker 2>health and end up with a problem called rested grief

0:25:03.354 --> 0:25:07.074
<v Speaker 2>or adjustment disorder. She said that sensitive workplace leaders record

0:25:07.194 --> 0:25:09.074
<v Speaker 2>as the need for people to take time off with

0:25:09.154 --> 0:25:11.914
<v Speaker 2>their pets to grieve. What do we think?

0:25:12.754 --> 0:25:16.794
<v Speaker 3>I would say, firstly, just on that kind of insight

0:25:16.994 --> 0:25:20.954
<v Speaker 3>from a psychologist, that it's important to acknowledge that not

0:25:21.034 --> 0:25:24.914
<v Speaker 3>everybody grieves the same way, and sometimes distraction can be

0:25:24.954 --> 0:25:27.554
<v Speaker 3>really good, and being around people can be really good

0:25:27.634 --> 0:25:31.314
<v Speaker 3>rather than being on your own. But in terms of Nagi,

0:25:31.594 --> 0:25:35.434
<v Speaker 3>that video, just I watched it and just you can't

0:25:35.474 --> 0:25:36.634
<v Speaker 3>watch it without crying.

0:25:36.794 --> 0:25:37.553
<v Speaker 4>Just give it a go.

0:25:37.714 --> 0:25:40.994
<v Speaker 3>But she wrote in it, thank you Doza for the

0:25:40.994 --> 0:25:44.474
<v Speaker 3>best years of my life. And I thought that was

0:25:44.954 --> 0:25:50.194
<v Speaker 3>actually a really profound statement, because when we grieve a pet,

0:25:50.434 --> 0:25:54.794
<v Speaker 3>it's often not just the pet that we're grieving. I

0:25:54.834 --> 0:25:59.194
<v Speaker 3>lost my fourteen year old, beautiful gentleman Caesar in April

0:25:59.274 --> 0:26:03.394
<v Speaker 3>last year, and you are grieving that dog and the

0:26:03.394 --> 0:26:06.793
<v Speaker 3>familiar sound of their footsteps in your house and the

0:26:06.834 --> 0:26:12.274
<v Speaker 3>snort and all of that, But you're also grieving the

0:26:12.314 --> 0:26:16.954
<v Speaker 3>fact that this has been a fixture of your life

0:26:17.114 --> 0:26:22.594
<v Speaker 3>for a period of time, and that they represent the

0:26:22.634 --> 0:26:27.914
<v Speaker 3>inevitability of everything ending. And it can be about how

0:26:28.034 --> 0:26:31.434
<v Speaker 3>time just keeps speeding up and all of us are

0:26:31.434 --> 0:26:34.514
<v Speaker 3>moving closer and closer in the direction of facing our

0:26:34.554 --> 0:26:39.234
<v Speaker 3>own mortality. With Nagi, I imagine just from the information

0:26:39.314 --> 0:26:41.354
<v Speaker 3>I've seen, that she was in a similar position to

0:26:41.394 --> 0:26:45.234
<v Speaker 3>what we were in that your dog is really, really

0:26:45.314 --> 0:26:45.994
<v Speaker 3>really unwell.

0:26:46.154 --> 0:26:49.074
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he'd been unwell the year before, and yes, early

0:26:49.114 --> 0:26:51.474
<v Speaker 2>in the year been hospitalized, I think too, Yes.

0:26:51.754 --> 0:26:54.273
<v Speaker 3>And the hard thing with pets is that very often

0:26:54.994 --> 0:26:56.954
<v Speaker 3>the person who loves the most has to make the

0:26:57.034 --> 0:26:59.874
<v Speaker 3>call at some point, and there's a lot of guilt

0:27:00.314 --> 0:27:03.274
<v Speaker 3>and weird emotion wrapped up in that. I remember thinking

0:27:03.314 --> 0:27:07.513
<v Speaker 3>with Caesar, Caesar outlived his life expectancy by eighteen months,

0:27:07.554 --> 0:27:10.994
<v Speaker 3>and still I felt like a monster having to make

0:27:11.034 --> 0:27:14.954
<v Speaker 3>the decision. And there's something so confronting about the fact

0:27:14.994 --> 0:27:17.114
<v Speaker 3>that they can't tell you when they're ready, or if

0:27:17.154 --> 0:27:20.033
<v Speaker 3>they're going to have a second wind or anything like that.

0:27:20.074 --> 0:27:22.033
<v Speaker 2>I Caesar was given a period of time that he

0:27:22.114 --> 0:27:22.954
<v Speaker 2>was expected to live.

0:27:23.034 --> 0:27:26.154
<v Speaker 3>Wasn't he any Yeah, defied he defied it. And in

0:27:26.194 --> 0:27:29.034
<v Speaker 3>some ways the death of an animal can be more

0:27:29.274 --> 0:27:31.994
<v Speaker 3>dignified than the death of a human in the way

0:27:32.034 --> 0:27:35.313
<v Speaker 3>that you euthanize, and it can be really peaceful and stuff.

0:27:35.554 --> 0:27:40.834
<v Speaker 3>And in other ways, there's no ritual, there's no marker

0:27:41.074 --> 0:27:43.794
<v Speaker 3>of grief in the same way there is for a human.

0:27:43.834 --> 0:27:45.634
<v Speaker 3>People don't all wear black and turn up to a

0:27:45.674 --> 0:27:49.074
<v Speaker 3>funeral and say eulogies, right, that would seem ridiculous. And

0:27:49.114 --> 0:27:52.594
<v Speaker 3>there is this kind of cultural snootiness, probably because when

0:27:52.594 --> 0:27:56.674
<v Speaker 3>your grandfather dies, there aren't people who go, no, I

0:27:56.714 --> 0:28:00.434
<v Speaker 3>don't like grandfathers. I've never been a grandfather person. They

0:28:00.474 --> 0:28:03.074
<v Speaker 3>kind of annoy me and I find them yappy. Point.

0:28:03.234 --> 0:28:06.314
<v Speaker 3>But with dogs and with cats and with any pet

0:28:06.354 --> 0:28:08.033
<v Speaker 3>that's in a family, kind of either get it or

0:28:08.034 --> 0:28:10.914
<v Speaker 3>you don't. So there's a cultural snootiness. But then in

0:28:10.954 --> 0:28:13.954
<v Speaker 3>the same way, I was so heartened to read all

0:28:14.034 --> 0:28:17.833
<v Speaker 3>the comments. There were tens of thousands of comments of

0:28:17.874 --> 0:28:20.234
<v Speaker 3>people who just got it that this is like a

0:28:20.274 --> 0:28:25.273
<v Speaker 3>member of your family, and they represent so many seasons

0:28:25.474 --> 0:28:29.674
<v Speaker 3>and moments of our family. Dog who we got kind

0:28:29.714 --> 0:28:33.513
<v Speaker 3>of just as I became a teenager, and when Ted died,

0:28:34.314 --> 0:28:37.394
<v Speaker 3>it was like I was mourning that period and all

0:28:37.394 --> 0:28:40.554
<v Speaker 3>the times, whether it was heartbreak or whether it was

0:28:40.594 --> 0:28:44.674
<v Speaker 3>getting home really late at night, or any season I

0:28:44.794 --> 0:28:48.834
<v Speaker 3>was in, he was there and he was there, sitting

0:28:48.874 --> 0:28:52.954
<v Speaker 3>there kind of keeping me company. And there's just this

0:28:53.034 --> 0:28:55.714
<v Speaker 3>simplicity to the relationship with a dog that there isn't

0:28:55.754 --> 0:28:58.794
<v Speaker 3>with humans that I find so beautiful.

0:28:58.954 --> 0:29:01.154
<v Speaker 2>I have a theory that a dog, in particular, if

0:29:01.154 --> 0:29:03.674
<v Speaker 2>you're a dog person, is like a place you put

0:29:03.674 --> 0:29:06.914
<v Speaker 2>your feelings. Like a dog allows you to be silly

0:29:07.194 --> 0:29:09.354
<v Speaker 2>with them, you know, when you would never be silly

0:29:09.394 --> 0:29:11.434
<v Speaker 2>in front of anybody else, And they allow you to

0:29:11.474 --> 0:29:13.154
<v Speaker 2>cuddle them, as you say, when they are sad, and

0:29:13.314 --> 0:29:15.514
<v Speaker 2>run around with them, and they offer you all these

0:29:15.634 --> 0:29:18.674
<v Speaker 2>wonderful things. But I also think they are place to

0:29:18.714 --> 0:29:22.594
<v Speaker 2>put When people think that grief for a lost pet

0:29:22.834 --> 0:29:27.314
<v Speaker 2>is outsized, I think that they're often not considering all

0:29:27.314 --> 0:29:29.914
<v Speaker 2>the things you've said about what they represent. But also,

0:29:30.514 --> 0:29:33.154
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, because of that simplicity of that relationship,

0:29:33.154 --> 0:29:34.994
<v Speaker 2>but it allows you to express a lot of things

0:29:35.034 --> 0:29:36.994
<v Speaker 2>that you would find difficult to do in a more

0:29:37.034 --> 0:29:40.394
<v Speaker 2>complex relationship. When we lost our beautiful dog Elvy, And

0:29:40.714 --> 0:29:42.114
<v Speaker 2>there'll be people listening to this who are like, I

0:29:42.114 --> 0:29:44.194
<v Speaker 2>can't even listen to this because it's so upsetting, Like

0:29:44.234 --> 0:29:47.074
<v Speaker 2>people get very upset, and rightly so. But when we

0:29:47.114 --> 0:29:49.354
<v Speaker 2>lost our beautiful dog, Elvy, it was a surprise. It

0:29:49.434 --> 0:29:53.074
<v Speaker 2>wasn't a long illness, and we were all really shocked

0:29:53.074 --> 0:29:55.714
<v Speaker 2>by how much it messed with us, not least Brent, right,

0:29:55.794 --> 0:29:58.594
<v Speaker 2>he was absolutely devastated. And I remember at the time

0:29:58.594 --> 0:30:00.994
<v Speaker 2>I got a message from someone I didn't know, an

0:30:01.034 --> 0:30:04.714
<v Speaker 2>out louder probably, who said, my husband lost his brother

0:30:04.914 --> 0:30:07.634
<v Speaker 2>and he didn't cry, but when he lost the family dog,

0:30:08.074 --> 0:30:11.754
<v Speaker 2>he fell to pieces. That doesn't mean that he loved

0:30:11.754 --> 0:30:14.274
<v Speaker 2>the dog more than he loved his brother. It means

0:30:14.314 --> 0:30:17.474
<v Speaker 2>that you can put your feelings in this simple relationship

0:30:17.474 --> 0:30:19.954
<v Speaker 2>in a way that you can't in a more complex one.

0:30:20.474 --> 0:30:23.674
<v Speaker 2>That it kind of takes you by surprise how much

0:30:24.554 --> 0:30:27.514
<v Speaker 2>you have kind of invested in that. And also to

0:30:27.594 --> 0:30:31.594
<v Speaker 2>your earlier point, Claire, I think it's such a tangible loss,

0:30:31.634 --> 0:30:34.274
<v Speaker 2>particularly if you live alone. My neighbor's just recently lost

0:30:34.274 --> 0:30:36.194
<v Speaker 2>her dog, and she's a widow who lives alone. But

0:30:36.514 --> 0:30:39.754
<v Speaker 2>it's such a tangible loss that might not actually be

0:30:40.234 --> 0:30:42.634
<v Speaker 2>real in other situations have lost someone you see every

0:30:42.714 --> 0:30:44.794
<v Speaker 2>day who lives in your house, who is a fixture

0:30:44.834 --> 0:30:47.554
<v Speaker 2>of every daily routine that you make, whether it's getting

0:30:47.634 --> 0:30:49.514
<v Speaker 2>up and taking them for a walk or what you

0:30:49.554 --> 0:30:51.554
<v Speaker 2>do in the evenings, Like they are a fixture of

0:30:51.594 --> 0:30:54.554
<v Speaker 2>your day every day, design your life around them, and

0:30:54.594 --> 0:30:57.914
<v Speaker 2>so I think that that's why it upends everything so much,

0:30:58.594 --> 0:31:01.154
<v Speaker 2>as well as just obviously the pure love you feel.

0:31:01.994 --> 0:31:05.714
<v Speaker 2>I think it's beautiful that Nagi has said she needs time.

0:31:05.754 --> 0:31:08.754
<v Speaker 3>And the fact that she's had this astronomical success and

0:31:08.834 --> 0:31:12.114
<v Speaker 3>you've got this dog. He doesn't give a share, whether

0:31:12.154 --> 0:31:14.754
<v Speaker 3>it's the best or an award or how much money

0:31:14.794 --> 0:31:18.554
<v Speaker 3>you've got, just absolutely doesn't care. Is just they're no

0:31:18.554 --> 0:31:20.754
<v Speaker 3>matter what. I think that there's something grounding about that.

0:31:20.794 --> 0:31:23.914
<v Speaker 3>We talked off Friday about mattering, and I think people

0:31:23.994 --> 0:31:27.794
<v Speaker 3>who and you know, not everyone has the relationship with

0:31:27.834 --> 0:31:31.354
<v Speaker 3>their dog that Nagi did, but there are people who

0:31:31.394 --> 0:31:32.954
<v Speaker 3>like wake up in the morning like that's for a

0:31:32.994 --> 0:31:35.634
<v Speaker 3>lot of people, their purpose is like looking after their dog.

0:31:35.634 --> 0:31:37.434
<v Speaker 3>It gives them a sense of purpose every single day,

0:31:37.474 --> 0:31:40.554
<v Speaker 3>and then that evaporates overnight. I also think one of

0:31:40.594 --> 0:31:46.194
<v Speaker 3>the reasons it is quite shattering, is because most of

0:31:46.234 --> 0:31:49.994
<v Speaker 3>us are really insulated from the reality of death, especially

0:31:50.034 --> 0:31:53.394
<v Speaker 3>if you haven't seen, you know, your parents go through it,

0:31:53.434 --> 0:31:56.354
<v Speaker 3>if you haven't been confronted with it in a really

0:31:56.394 --> 0:32:01.434
<v Speaker 3>close way, holding your pet's hand and watching as the

0:32:01.514 --> 0:32:03.434
<v Speaker 3>light goes out of their eyes and they take a

0:32:03.474 --> 0:32:06.874
<v Speaker 3>breath in and don't take a breath out. That is

0:32:07.114 --> 0:32:09.354
<v Speaker 3>it might be the first time you've ever in Canada. Yeah,

0:32:09.474 --> 0:32:13.834
<v Speaker 3>it's a really destabilizing type of grief. And I think,

0:32:13.874 --> 0:32:16.594
<v Speaker 3>as you say, Holly, it then becomes a bit of

0:32:16.634 --> 0:32:19.674
<v Speaker 3>a channel to put a lot of a lot of feelings.

0:32:19.714 --> 0:32:23.234
<v Speaker 3>And I remember thinking with Caesar because I just could

0:32:23.314 --> 0:32:26.834
<v Speaker 3>not believe how I cried and how distraught I was.

0:32:27.514 --> 0:32:29.914
<v Speaker 3>And then I thought that maybe it's it's kind of

0:32:29.954 --> 0:32:35.674
<v Speaker 3>this weird tear through time where you momentarily feel the

0:32:35.674 --> 0:32:39.754
<v Speaker 3>weight of what you've already lost. So with the person

0:32:39.794 --> 0:32:42.234
<v Speaker 3>you were saying who didn't cry for their brother, they

0:32:42.274 --> 0:32:45.834
<v Speaker 3>probably are crying for their brother through their dog, and

0:32:45.874 --> 0:32:47.914
<v Speaker 3>then what they're still is to lose. I remember looking

0:32:47.914 --> 0:32:50.954
<v Speaker 3>at Caesar and it's just a reminder of mortality and

0:32:51.354 --> 0:32:54.434
<v Speaker 3>how terrifying that is, and you're confronted with it in

0:32:54.474 --> 0:32:57.914
<v Speaker 3>a way that so few of us are in the

0:32:57.914 --> 0:32:58.474
<v Speaker 3>modern world.

0:32:59.114 --> 0:33:01.434
<v Speaker 2>I want to send massive love both to Nagi of

0:33:01.474 --> 0:33:03.114
<v Speaker 2>course and all the fans of Dozer, but to any

0:33:03.114 --> 0:33:06.114
<v Speaker 2>out louders who are struggling with loss of all kinds

0:33:06.274 --> 0:33:08.114
<v Speaker 2>like I think that one of the reasons why that

0:33:08.154 --> 0:33:09.994
<v Speaker 2>you get a big reaction to a story like this,

0:33:10.074 --> 0:33:12.674
<v Speaker 2>And I know a lot of people. When Nagi posted

0:33:12.674 --> 0:33:16.034
<v Speaker 2>that Dozer was unwell last year and then also in

0:33:16.114 --> 0:33:20.354
<v Speaker 2>recent weeks, people have been really invested and worrying about

0:33:20.434 --> 0:33:22.354
<v Speaker 2>him and posting about him and talking about it. And

0:33:22.474 --> 0:33:26.154
<v Speaker 2>I think it's because it's a grief we can very

0:33:26.154 --> 0:33:29.074
<v Speaker 2>many of us that can touch and understand. So massive

0:33:29.114 --> 0:33:30.474
<v Speaker 2>love to you out louders.

0:33:32.234 --> 0:33:35.634
<v Speaker 3>Okay, do you guys remember the Coldplay kiss Camp?

0:33:35.994 --> 0:33:36.714
<v Speaker 4>How could we not?

0:33:37.394 --> 0:33:40.874
<v Speaker 3>Oh the couple kissing on the Jumpertron who then jumped

0:33:40.874 --> 0:33:43.274
<v Speaker 3>apart as soon as they appeared on the big screen

0:33:43.314 --> 0:33:45.714
<v Speaker 3>because turns out they were both married to other people.

0:33:45.834 --> 0:33:47.754
<v Speaker 2>How long ago was that? Do you think it's one

0:33:47.794 --> 0:33:51.954
<v Speaker 2>of those moments in time? Yeah, we all moved.

0:33:51.674 --> 0:33:54.674
<v Speaker 3>On, Yeah, but yeah, it was really fun for the

0:33:54.674 --> 0:33:55.274
<v Speaker 3>whole family.

0:33:55.394 --> 0:33:57.074
<v Speaker 4>I thought likely.

0:33:58.434 --> 0:34:02.354
<v Speaker 3>Families exactly, so fun for all of us except mostly

0:34:02.434 --> 0:34:05.594
<v Speaker 3>two people in their families. So a man named Andy Byron,

0:34:05.754 --> 0:34:08.593
<v Speaker 3>who was the CEO of a company called Astronomer, and

0:34:08.634 --> 0:34:11.274
<v Speaker 3>the woman he was cheating on his wife with his

0:34:11.433 --> 0:34:15.473
<v Speaker 3>human resources executive, Christian Cabot, Well, a bit of who

0:34:15.554 --> 0:34:17.314
<v Speaker 3>wasn't even cheating? She was separated.

0:34:17.474 --> 0:34:18.514
<v Speaker 4>She was separated.

0:34:18.994 --> 0:34:21.074
<v Speaker 3>Yes, I feel like that's an important detail that we

0:34:21.114 --> 0:34:24.394
<v Speaker 3>need to keep reminding people. Well she has don't worry okay,

0:34:24.394 --> 0:34:26.114
<v Speaker 3>so but a bit of an update, so I know

0:34:26.154 --> 0:34:29.114
<v Speaker 3>you guys were hanging out to know what has been

0:34:29.154 --> 0:34:33.994
<v Speaker 3>happening since for just eight hundred and seventy five dollars.

0:34:34.234 --> 0:34:37.114
<v Speaker 3>You can hear Christian Cabot speak at a one day

0:34:37.434 --> 0:34:40.954
<v Speaker 3>Crisis Comm's conference about how she took control of the

0:34:41.034 --> 0:34:45.234
<v Speaker 3>narrative and rewrote her story. My first question was, did

0:34:45.274 --> 0:34:46.554
<v Speaker 3>she should I miss that.

0:34:48.754 --> 0:34:50.754
<v Speaker 4>Popular yeah, opinion.

0:34:50.554 --> 0:34:52.714
<v Speaker 2>Like she gave that interview to the New York Time.

0:34:52.914 --> 0:34:57.074
<v Speaker 3>Well, so the description her like kind of bio for

0:34:57.154 --> 0:34:59.913
<v Speaker 3>the conference said, while attending a Coldplay concert in July,

0:34:59.994 --> 0:35:02.874
<v Speaker 3>there would go middle of last year and unwittingly appearing

0:35:02.874 --> 0:35:06.074
<v Speaker 3>on the kiss cam, Kristian Cabot's life blew up. She

0:35:06.154 --> 0:35:09.834
<v Speaker 3>experienced firsthand the extremity of public shaming that women have

0:35:09.874 --> 0:35:12.754
<v Speaker 3>long experienced when in the negative spotlight of the media,

0:35:13.154 --> 0:35:16.274
<v Speaker 3>won their male counterparts often seemed to avoid. I would

0:35:16.354 --> 0:35:20.194
<v Speaker 3>argue Andy Byron did not avoid that in this particular situation.

0:35:21.074 --> 0:35:24.074
<v Speaker 3>But in terms of crisis comms, you're exactly right, Holly.

0:35:24.234 --> 0:35:26.914
<v Speaker 3>She did an interview with The New York Times in December.

0:35:26.994 --> 0:35:31.194
<v Speaker 3>I missed it, which I'm obsessed with this story of

0:35:31.274 --> 0:35:33.474
<v Speaker 3>the passing of time. Is that no one cares.

0:35:33.674 --> 0:35:35.354
<v Speaker 4>I know that.

0:35:35.354 --> 0:35:38.994
<v Speaker 3>That's part of the strategy, is that you wait for

0:35:39.034 --> 0:35:41.274
<v Speaker 3>everything to blow over, and then you go, I'm ready

0:35:41.314 --> 0:35:45.674
<v Speaker 3>to tell my story, and everyone's like who.

0:35:45.834 --> 0:35:49.074
<v Speaker 2>But also crucially, everybody's already made up your story in

0:35:49.114 --> 0:35:52.074
<v Speaker 2>their head. So when she gave that interview to the

0:35:52.114 --> 0:35:55.393
<v Speaker 2>New York Times, she did give some very important details,

0:35:55.554 --> 0:35:57.954
<v Speaker 2>like the fact she was separated, like the fact that

0:35:57.994 --> 0:36:00.433
<v Speaker 2>their relationship didn't continue. It did for a hot minute

0:36:00.434 --> 0:36:02.114
<v Speaker 2>and then it didn't. It was the first time she

0:36:02.234 --> 0:36:05.234
<v Speaker 2>kissed him, Yeah, exactly. Allegedly, she gave all these details.

0:36:05.234 --> 0:36:07.794
<v Speaker 2>But the thing is is we'd all gone cheetahs, dirty

0:36:07.834 --> 0:36:11.314
<v Speaker 2>ditty cheetahs, and we just didn't have space to listen to.

0:36:12.114 --> 0:36:13.634
<v Speaker 4>But when you actually read it.

0:36:13.634 --> 0:36:16.274
<v Speaker 3>It's a brilliant interview and what she says about public

0:36:16.314 --> 0:36:18.593
<v Speaker 3>shaming and trying to teach your kids that it's okay

0:36:18.634 --> 0:36:21.034
<v Speaker 3>to make mistakes while she's being yelled at in the

0:36:21.074 --> 0:36:24.114
<v Speaker 3>street for being a home wreck card can I.

0:36:24.074 --> 0:36:25.194
<v Speaker 4>Ask, do you guys reckon?

0:36:25.234 --> 0:36:27.234
<v Speaker 3>She should write a book? Do you reckon? Anyone would

0:36:27.234 --> 0:36:27.474
<v Speaker 3>buy it?

0:36:27.834 --> 0:36:28.714
<v Speaker 2>Whole book?

0:36:29.154 --> 0:36:31.754
<v Speaker 3>Well, I mean, I think she could write an essay

0:36:31.914 --> 0:36:36.954
<v Speaker 3>I'd read. I wouldn't so once I'm wondering, I'm wondering

0:36:36.994 --> 0:36:37.834
<v Speaker 3>how she can make a buck.

0:36:38.074 --> 0:36:41.194
<v Speaker 2>Well, well, here she can talk at pre conferences, Holly.

0:36:41.274 --> 0:36:43.914
<v Speaker 3>I read that even though they're charging that much for

0:36:43.914 --> 0:36:45.354
<v Speaker 3>a day, that she's not getting paid.

0:36:45.474 --> 0:36:47.234
<v Speaker 2>Why would you do it if you weren't getting paid?

0:36:47.394 --> 0:36:49.034
<v Speaker 3>So here's she's unemployed.

0:36:49.154 --> 0:36:50.794
<v Speaker 2>Well, this is what I mean. So I would expect

0:36:50.834 --> 0:36:53.473
<v Speaker 2>she was getting paid because the problem with this kind

0:36:53.554 --> 0:36:56.114
<v Speaker 2>of fame, this is a very tricky, particular kind of

0:36:56.154 --> 0:37:00.634
<v Speaker 2>notoriety infamy. Right. So I remember at the time people

0:37:00.674 --> 0:37:03.873
<v Speaker 2>said that story will follow these people everywhere. She'll go

0:37:03.914 --> 0:37:05.953
<v Speaker 2>off and get another job in corporate comms or whatever

0:37:05.994 --> 0:37:09.554
<v Speaker 2>she was doing. Hr he lost his job, but he'll

0:37:09.594 --> 0:37:11.913
<v Speaker 2>go and get another CEO job somewhere as some non

0:37:11.994 --> 0:37:14.594
<v Speaker 2>high profile company and everyone will forget about it. And

0:37:14.634 --> 0:37:16.634
<v Speaker 2>then people are like, but would they like, if Christian

0:37:16.674 --> 0:37:18.754
<v Speaker 2>Cabbot turn up in your pilates class, would you be like,

0:37:18.834 --> 0:37:20.114
<v Speaker 2>that's the sea lady.

0:37:20.194 --> 0:37:22.194
<v Speaker 3>But the interesting thing is I didn't know her name

0:37:22.434 --> 0:37:24.034
<v Speaker 3>or I couldn't recognize her face.

0:37:24.154 --> 0:37:26.354
<v Speaker 2>That's why this is a tricky thing to get right,

0:37:26.474 --> 0:37:28.994
<v Speaker 2>isn't it Because by following it up and putting the

0:37:29.034 --> 0:37:32.834
<v Speaker 2>record straight, she now has entered the public conversation in

0:37:32.874 --> 0:37:36.634
<v Speaker 2>a way that maybe she wouldn't have needed to. But then,

0:37:36.674 --> 0:37:39.874
<v Speaker 2>on the other hand, she does have an interesting story

0:37:39.914 --> 0:37:42.594
<v Speaker 2>to tell about what happens when you get busted cheating

0:37:42.634 --> 0:37:47.114
<v Speaker 2>at a Coldplay concert and the entire world, like Australia, India,

0:37:47.194 --> 0:37:49.154
<v Speaker 2>everywhere in the world is showing your face on the

0:37:49.154 --> 0:37:52.714
<v Speaker 2>telly and being like, look at these idiots loll like and.

0:37:52.714 --> 0:37:54.553
<v Speaker 3>Imagine if we're at work and they were like, hey,

0:37:54.714 --> 0:37:57.834
<v Speaker 3>new HR person, it's Kristin Cabot and you went, oh,

0:37:57.874 --> 0:37:58.434
<v Speaker 3>I kind.

0:37:58.234 --> 0:37:59.354
<v Speaker 2>Of can you imagine the group?

0:38:00.114 --> 0:38:02.154
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, didn't she have an affair with a CEO? Like

0:38:02.194 --> 0:38:05.274
<v Speaker 3>it also was probably incongruous with the role she wants

0:38:05.314 --> 0:38:07.634
<v Speaker 3>to do. So she probably does need a career a pivot,

0:38:08.314 --> 0:38:10.154
<v Speaker 3>but I think she needs better advice if she's doing

0:38:10.194 --> 0:38:12.714
<v Speaker 3>conferences for free. Yeah yeah, yeah, not a good myths

0:38:12.794 --> 0:38:13.834
<v Speaker 3>this movie, I reckon.

0:38:14.114 --> 0:38:15.874
<v Speaker 2>We have to pay then.

0:38:15.834 --> 0:38:19.954
<v Speaker 3>For their Wayah, I reckon in a couple of years,

0:38:20.274 --> 0:38:22.714
<v Speaker 3>I'd watch a docco. I think she should produce the

0:38:22.754 --> 0:38:26.834
<v Speaker 3>document do flick stocko through Parter. Yeah. If Chris Martin

0:38:26.914 --> 0:38:30.034
<v Speaker 3>was in interview, yes, because the I want Gwyneth Paltrow.

0:38:30.514 --> 0:38:32.874
<v Speaker 2>She was really so, she was really mad about Gwyneth.

0:38:32.874 --> 0:38:34.754
<v Speaker 2>That was another thing that Kristin Cabot said in the

0:38:34.754 --> 0:38:37.834
<v Speaker 2>New York Times. Thing because people will remember. Maybe they won't,

0:38:37.874 --> 0:38:41.274
<v Speaker 2>but I clearly do that Gwyneth jumped on very quickly

0:38:41.354 --> 0:38:44.114
<v Speaker 2>and didn't add for Astronomer, which was genius pre moved

0:38:44.114 --> 0:38:46.154
<v Speaker 2>from astronomer. But it kind of really took the piss

0:38:46.154 --> 0:38:48.714
<v Speaker 2>out of the situation. And we all thought that was funny.

0:38:49.074 --> 0:38:51.874
<v Speaker 2>But Kristin Cabot did not. She thought it was mean

0:38:52.234 --> 0:38:55.434
<v Speaker 2>and unsisterly. How dare she say those things about my Gwyneth?

0:38:58.034 --> 0:39:02.034
<v Speaker 3>She said, you're the one who talked about unconscious uncoupling,

0:39:02.074 --> 0:39:03.393
<v Speaker 3>and now you're making fun of me.

0:39:03.994 --> 0:39:06.433
<v Speaker 4>It would be really hard to be. I don't know.

0:39:06.634 --> 0:39:08.554
<v Speaker 3>I do think there's something in it. I do think

0:39:08.554 --> 0:39:10.794
<v Speaker 3>there's a career opportunity. I would go to the session

0:39:10.914 --> 0:39:18.434
<v Speaker 3>if it was free, I wouldn't pay it. Fair after

0:39:18.474 --> 0:39:22.393
<v Speaker 3>the Break the most bamboozling celebrity profile I have ever

0:39:22.474 --> 0:39:33.274
<v Speaker 3>personally read. Okay, have we all read the Bianca Sensory

0:39:33.394 --> 0:39:34.433
<v Speaker 3>profile in Vanity Fail?

0:39:34.554 --> 0:39:35.074
<v Speaker 4>Every word?

0:39:35.274 --> 0:39:39.474
<v Speaker 2>I have and look. I like Vanity Fair. I respect

0:39:39.514 --> 0:39:43.914
<v Speaker 2>their journalism, but that story was too long. What actually

0:39:43.994 --> 0:39:46.553
<v Speaker 2>happened in that story? Nothing? All right?

0:39:46.634 --> 0:39:48.953
<v Speaker 3>This is what I need to get to the bottom of.

0:39:49.194 --> 0:39:55.834
<v Speaker 3>So a reminder, Censory is the wife of Yay formerly

0:39:55.874 --> 0:39:58.234
<v Speaker 3>known as Kanye West. She grew up in Melbourne, and

0:39:58.354 --> 0:40:01.714
<v Speaker 3>let's all be honest and transparent about what she's best

0:40:01.754 --> 0:40:04.114
<v Speaker 3>known for, and that would be how she dresses, or

0:40:04.194 --> 0:40:08.034
<v Speaker 3>rather doesn't. She three years she's been with him, and

0:40:08.074 --> 0:40:14.154
<v Speaker 3>for most of her public appearances she has been somewhat naked.

0:40:14.274 --> 0:40:18.274
<v Speaker 3>She's been naked so Grammy's last year, she wore a

0:40:18.594 --> 0:40:21.513
<v Speaker 3>naked dress, but like it was completely see through and

0:40:21.554 --> 0:40:24.034
<v Speaker 3>in order to I think that we put a picture

0:40:24.074 --> 0:40:26.194
<v Speaker 3>on our Instagram, and I think that meta punished us

0:40:26.394 --> 0:40:29.714
<v Speaker 3>Like it was you could see nipples, you could see bottom,

0:40:29.874 --> 0:40:30.834
<v Speaker 3>you could see everything.

0:40:30.994 --> 0:40:32.754
<v Speaker 2>There was also a lot of pap shots where she

0:40:32.794 --> 0:40:34.634
<v Speaker 2>appeared to not be wearing anything in public.

0:40:35.114 --> 0:40:38.954
<v Speaker 3>Yes, exactly right, although sometimes she covers her face and

0:40:38.994 --> 0:40:42.393
<v Speaker 3>everything else is kind of nude. So she's worn fishnets

0:40:42.474 --> 0:40:46.754
<v Speaker 3>with no underwear underneath. She has worn a like plastic

0:40:46.834 --> 0:40:51.674
<v Speaker 3>sea through poncho, again no underwear. Sheer naked body suits

0:40:51.914 --> 0:40:55.034
<v Speaker 3>stockings like you can see she's got stockings, but then

0:40:55.074 --> 0:40:58.034
<v Speaker 3>she's also got stockings on her head. You get the drift,

0:40:58.274 --> 0:41:02.114
<v Speaker 3>So vanity fair. This article seems to be an attempt

0:41:02.234 --> 0:41:09.234
<v Speaker 3>to rehabilitate sensory and by extension, Yay's image. There have

0:41:09.314 --> 0:41:13.433
<v Speaker 3>been stories coming out about what Yay has said for

0:41:13.794 --> 0:41:16.993
<v Speaker 3>literally years. We have touched on some of them. Some

0:41:17.074 --> 0:41:21.714
<v Speaker 3>of them are almost too borrent to go into. And

0:41:21.794 --> 0:41:27.354
<v Speaker 3>the line between mental illness and hate speech and what

0:41:27.514 --> 0:41:29.513
<v Speaker 3>sense can be made of any of it, we've kind

0:41:29.554 --> 0:41:33.473
<v Speaker 3>of struggled to work that out at times. Back to sensory,

0:41:34.034 --> 0:41:37.873
<v Speaker 3>the profile starts with the sentence Bianca Sensory says she's

0:41:37.954 --> 0:41:42.554
<v Speaker 3>done being naked. Did you notice that nowhere did she say.

0:41:42.394 --> 0:41:44.834
<v Speaker 2>That it's going to be awkward having a bath having

0:41:44.874 --> 0:41:45.994
<v Speaker 2>sex like she needs to be that.

0:41:46.314 --> 0:41:48.154
<v Speaker 3>She needs to be naked sometimes. And also the feature

0:41:48.154 --> 0:41:51.034
<v Speaker 3>image on the article is her riding a horse naked. Naked, Yeah,

0:41:51.074 --> 0:41:51.914
<v Speaker 3>I worry about fleets.

0:41:51.994 --> 0:41:54.834
<v Speaker 2>I can't be entirely done with being naked. No, not really.

0:41:55.074 --> 0:41:57.754
<v Speaker 3>No, I worry about the cleanliness of the horse and

0:41:57.754 --> 0:42:00.354
<v Speaker 3>what my climb up. That's why we don't straddle horses nude.

0:42:00.994 --> 0:42:01.754
<v Speaker 2>It's that why.

0:42:01.794 --> 0:42:02.354
<v Speaker 4>That's why.

0:42:02.474 --> 0:42:03.194
<v Speaker 3>That's why.

0:42:03.394 --> 0:42:04.714
<v Speaker 2>I thought that might be other reasons.

0:42:04.714 --> 0:42:07.473
<v Speaker 3>But guys, she's ready to expect. Paragraph four, she ready

0:42:07.514 --> 0:42:11.114
<v Speaker 3>to speak. Paragraph eight, she is ready to speak. I

0:42:11.114 --> 0:42:13.634
<v Speaker 3>don't understand a single thing, she says. A nice entire article.

0:42:13.874 --> 0:42:15.114
<v Speaker 4>I'm trying to be kind.

0:42:15.234 --> 0:42:18.074
<v Speaker 3>I'm trying. But the high lights I suppose when she

0:42:18.154 --> 0:42:23.114
<v Speaker 3>says I love my artwork, which I think is her nudity.

0:42:23.674 --> 0:42:27.154
<v Speaker 3>She also asks the author of the piece to tell

0:42:27.194 --> 0:42:29.433
<v Speaker 3>the Vanity Fair editor that last year she was the

0:42:29.434 --> 0:42:30.473
<v Speaker 3>most googled woman in the world.

0:42:30.554 --> 0:42:31.594
<v Speaker 2>That's my favorite part of this.

0:42:32.274 --> 0:42:34.274
<v Speaker 3>I really enjoyed that detail. And she said, it's not

0:42:34.394 --> 0:42:39.953
<v Speaker 3>about me bragging. Basically, she says, it is not a

0:42:39.954 --> 0:42:42.913
<v Speaker 3>position that anybody in time has ever had that much

0:42:42.994 --> 0:42:46.434
<v Speaker 3>visibility without speech, which is like, if you ever wanted

0:42:46.434 --> 0:42:48.754
<v Speaker 3>to say anything, everyone's listening. It's just you have stockings

0:42:48.794 --> 0:42:51.514
<v Speaker 3>on your head. But I also kind of I'm not

0:42:51.634 --> 0:42:55.114
<v Speaker 3>quite sure about that. I'm like, oh, I don't know, Cleopatra,

0:42:55.234 --> 0:42:55.873
<v Speaker 3>what'd she say?

0:42:56.034 --> 0:42:56.754
<v Speaker 4>Do you know what I mean?

0:42:56.754 --> 0:43:01.194
<v Speaker 2>Marilyn Monroe modlight weird. Yeah, actually that revelationary that women

0:43:01.234 --> 0:43:03.354
<v Speaker 2>are seen and not heard. She didn't get the cover,

0:43:03.394 --> 0:43:06.953
<v Speaker 2>by the way, Tayana Taylor got the cover. She's asking

0:43:07.034 --> 0:43:08.794
<v Speaker 2>to dominated Bianca do better.

0:43:08.914 --> 0:43:10.434
<v Speaker 4>Sorry, sorry, mate, your performance.

0:43:11.194 --> 0:43:14.034
<v Speaker 3>So ann Appeal, who is the author, wants to know

0:43:14.074 --> 0:43:16.074
<v Speaker 3>who is in control of her life because that's been

0:43:16.114 --> 0:43:20.474
<v Speaker 3>a big theme. Is like, is Bianca sen sorry being controlled?

0:43:20.714 --> 0:43:23.594
<v Speaker 2>Because yay, Like among all the awful shit he's said

0:43:23.594 --> 0:43:26.114
<v Speaker 2>in the past couple of years, he has quite explicitly

0:43:26.154 --> 0:43:27.114
<v Speaker 2>said at times that.

0:43:27.034 --> 0:43:29.433
<v Speaker 3>He was controlling her yep, and that she tried to leave.

0:43:29.514 --> 0:43:33.033
<v Speaker 3>He posted he posted on x I have dominion over

0:43:33.114 --> 0:43:36.154
<v Speaker 3>my wife in capitals. Yeah, he released a song. I

0:43:36.154 --> 0:43:37.953
<v Speaker 3>think that was all about where she went and like

0:43:37.994 --> 0:43:39.234
<v Speaker 3>it's really scary stuff.

0:43:39.274 --> 0:43:42.114
<v Speaker 4>So it's not like a weird question to ask, no,

0:43:42.234 --> 0:43:42.554
<v Speaker 4>but she.

0:43:42.554 --> 0:43:44.754
<v Speaker 3>Keeps giving answers, like a tree is the shape of

0:43:44.794 --> 0:43:46.913
<v Speaker 3>a tree because that's what nature does, or whatever. What

0:43:46.994 --> 0:43:48.593
<v Speaker 3>does a house want to be? And that I feel

0:43:48.634 --> 0:43:51.513
<v Speaker 3>will be my life's work. I don't understand what's going on.

0:43:51.834 --> 0:43:52.754
<v Speaker 3>I don't understand.

0:43:52.874 --> 0:43:56.074
<v Speaker 2>Look generally speaking, I quite like it when celebrities are

0:43:56.194 --> 0:43:59.754
<v Speaker 2>bat shit. I generally think I don't want my celebrities

0:43:59.754 --> 0:44:01.873
<v Speaker 2>to be dislike me. I am boring, I go to

0:44:01.914 --> 0:44:04.754
<v Speaker 2>the shops, I scrub toilet. I don't want my celebrities

0:44:04.794 --> 0:44:06.834
<v Speaker 2>like that. I'm sorry. Sometimes I want them riding a

0:44:06.834 --> 0:44:09.993
<v Speaker 2>horse in the nude and talking about how they bought

0:44:09.994 --> 0:44:12.194
<v Speaker 2>a house just to gut it and move out again,

0:44:12.234 --> 0:44:14.914
<v Speaker 2>which is another thing that happens in this article.

0:44:15.354 --> 0:44:18.074
<v Speaker 3>Even though she has a degree in architect Okay, that's

0:44:18.074 --> 0:44:19.154
<v Speaker 3>something I have to talk about.

0:44:19.394 --> 0:44:20.714
<v Speaker 4>She's not thriving with her.

0:44:20.634 --> 0:44:24.234
<v Speaker 2>Arquet whatever whatever we think about, and I do struggle,

0:44:24.314 --> 0:44:26.194
<v Speaker 2>you know. I try it not to be judgmental, but

0:44:26.514 --> 0:44:32.114
<v Speaker 2>that period of the naked Bianca yay paparazzi was very

0:44:32.154 --> 0:44:35.354
<v Speaker 2>tricky to get through as a mother, as a bothering

0:44:35.394 --> 0:44:38.034
<v Speaker 2>It in inverted commas is that you know, you've got

0:44:38.034 --> 0:44:41.154
<v Speaker 2>a teenage daughter who notices these things, and she's like,

0:44:41.234 --> 0:44:44.074
<v Speaker 2>why is that? Lady, always naked, and why is everybody

0:44:44.114 --> 0:44:45.634
<v Speaker 2>always looking at her? And why is she the most

0:44:45.634 --> 0:44:46.314
<v Speaker 2>google woman.

0:44:46.114 --> 0:44:48.393
<v Speaker 3>In the world standing next to a fully clothed Kanye And.

0:44:48.594 --> 0:44:51.834
<v Speaker 2>These are difficult questions to answer. Bianki, you did not

0:44:51.954 --> 0:44:55.234
<v Speaker 2>make our lives easy there for a little while. You

0:44:55.394 --> 0:44:58.314
<v Speaker 2>can't deny, though, that this is an interesting story, like

0:44:58.394 --> 0:45:03.114
<v Speaker 2>a pretty ordinary and inverted Commas schoolgirl from Melbourne who's

0:45:03.114 --> 0:45:05.074
<v Speaker 2>got sisters and a mom and just normal life.

0:45:05.154 --> 0:45:09.234
<v Speaker 4>Ever, brother who refuses to a brother of ends up.

0:45:09.674 --> 0:45:12.154
<v Speaker 4>I want him to talk. He knows what he's doing.

0:45:12.394 --> 0:45:14.314
<v Speaker 2>But that is an interesting story.

0:45:14.514 --> 0:45:16.794
<v Speaker 3>I mean, the thing I love the most is that

0:45:16.834 --> 0:45:19.074
<v Speaker 3>she's so insistent that she didn't want to use her

0:45:19.114 --> 0:45:20.714
<v Speaker 3>voice until she had something to say. And yet she

0:45:20.754 --> 0:45:23.514
<v Speaker 3>says absolutely nothing in all of these words. But in

0:45:23.594 --> 0:45:28.194
<v Speaker 3>the age of Epstein, where we've got widespread sex trafficking

0:45:28.274 --> 0:45:31.513
<v Speaker 3>and women who have no voice while rich, powerful men

0:45:31.714 --> 0:45:35.274
<v Speaker 3>use them solely as sex objects, is it radical to

0:45:35.274 --> 0:45:37.714
<v Speaker 3>be naked and say nothing. That's what I'd like to

0:45:37.754 --> 0:45:39.674
<v Speaker 3>ask her. And you know what, the one thing she

0:45:39.754 --> 0:45:42.074
<v Speaker 3>does say, and this is on a more serious note,

0:45:42.114 --> 0:45:44.994
<v Speaker 3>is she does say, I am not anti Semitic, and

0:45:44.994 --> 0:45:46.674
<v Speaker 3>she's like, I knew I'd have an opportunity to say

0:45:46.674 --> 0:45:49.194
<v Speaker 3>that one day and then moves on. But then in

0:45:49.234 --> 0:45:52.234
<v Speaker 3>the same breath she says she's talking about how in

0:45:52.274 --> 0:45:54.953
<v Speaker 3>love she is with Yay, and she says, I love

0:45:55.034 --> 0:45:58.194
<v Speaker 3>him so much. We're like the same person. I'm like,

0:45:58.274 --> 0:46:01.794
<v Speaker 3>this is the issue. You've become so enmeshed and work

0:46:01.834 --> 0:46:05.154
<v Speaker 3>in the same business and excuse him, and you say

0:46:05.194 --> 0:46:07.714
<v Speaker 3>it's been like doing CPR on him for last year.

0:46:07.754 --> 0:46:10.674
<v Speaker 3>We all know he has mental health issues, and we

0:46:10.714 --> 0:46:13.554
<v Speaker 3>can't possibly understand or speculate how much of that has

0:46:13.634 --> 0:46:17.314
<v Speaker 3>to do with the objective hate speech that's come out

0:46:17.354 --> 0:46:20.354
<v Speaker 3>of him over the years. But when you say we're

0:46:20.474 --> 0:46:23.554
<v Speaker 3>like the same person, it's very difficult for us to

0:46:23.714 --> 0:46:27.594
<v Speaker 3>watch her stand next to him at events and hold

0:46:27.634 --> 0:46:34.234
<v Speaker 3>his hand and enable him when he is literally threatening

0:46:34.514 --> 0:46:38.473
<v Speaker 3>violence to Jewish people all over the world. Like, I

0:46:38.474 --> 0:46:42.234
<v Speaker 3>don't think that's actually sexist to kind of look at

0:46:42.274 --> 0:46:45.474
<v Speaker 3>her and go, mate, you're working in the same business endeavors,

0:46:45.514 --> 0:46:49.234
<v Speaker 3>you're in the same meetings, you're privy to your benefiting

0:46:49.314 --> 0:46:51.834
<v Speaker 3>from this man's his career.

0:46:52.434 --> 0:46:55.314
<v Speaker 2>I find that a bit difficult because she didn't say

0:46:55.354 --> 0:46:57.794
<v Speaker 2>any of those things, like he has been. I mean,

0:46:57.914 --> 0:47:00.994
<v Speaker 2>it's hard to overstate how offensive a lot of the

0:47:00.994 --> 0:47:02.873
<v Speaker 2>stuff that has come out out of his mouth over

0:47:02.874 --> 0:47:05.394
<v Speaker 2>the past couple of years had been. But it didn't

0:47:05.434 --> 0:47:09.114
<v Speaker 2>come out of her mouth. And benefit of the doubt,

0:47:10.034 --> 0:47:12.513
<v Speaker 2>it is very difficult being in a relationship with someone

0:47:12.554 --> 0:47:16.473
<v Speaker 2>who is suffering from very severe mental health issues. On

0:47:16.514 --> 0:47:19.914
<v Speaker 2>its face, it appears that that is what's been happening

0:47:19.954 --> 0:47:23.074
<v Speaker 2>with Kanye. It doesn't excuse any of it, you know,

0:47:23.114 --> 0:47:25.393
<v Speaker 2>the anti semitism, the racism, any of that stuff. It

0:47:25.394 --> 0:47:29.514
<v Speaker 2>doesn't excuse it. The misogyny, it doesn't excuse it. But

0:47:29.754 --> 0:47:32.314
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't her. And sometimes I think, and this is

0:47:32.314 --> 0:47:33.913
<v Speaker 2>a thing we've been talking about a bit today, we

0:47:34.074 --> 0:47:38.674
<v Speaker 2>do love to blame a woman, particularly a provocative woman,

0:47:38.754 --> 0:47:41.073
<v Speaker 2>which there's no question that the way she dresses everything,

0:47:41.114 --> 0:47:44.393
<v Speaker 2>provocative is a loaded word. But she says herself deliberately

0:47:44.394 --> 0:47:47.714
<v Speaker 2>trying to provoke a reaction for a man's awful deeds,

0:47:47.794 --> 0:47:50.234
<v Speaker 2>Like it wasn't Biancher Sensory who said those things.

0:47:50.794 --> 0:47:53.154
<v Speaker 3>I will say I actually quite liked this she said.

0:47:53.514 --> 0:47:55.834
<v Speaker 3>This year was a lot like doing CPR for months.

0:47:56.314 --> 0:47:58.274
<v Speaker 3>I have the love and empathy for him to be

0:47:58.354 --> 0:48:00.914
<v Speaker 3>able to do that, and I understand the world doesn't

0:48:01.634 --> 0:48:04.514
<v Speaker 3>I quite liked. I was like, yeah, like you might

0:48:04.674 --> 0:48:06.794
<v Speaker 3>have the patience to do that for the person you love,

0:48:06.914 --> 0:48:07.873
<v Speaker 3>but I don't.

0:48:08.074 --> 0:48:10.114
<v Speaker 2>This is why this is very complicated talk about in

0:48:10.154 --> 0:48:12.634
<v Speaker 2>a way, because there are clearly a lot of mental

0:48:12.714 --> 0:48:14.913
<v Speaker 2>health issues going on here. She also in another part

0:48:14.954 --> 0:48:16.953
<v Speaker 2>of this, she talks about going into rehabit. She talks

0:48:16.954 --> 0:48:20.754
<v Speaker 2>about having issues with drugs. They both definitely read and

0:48:20.954 --> 0:48:23.354
<v Speaker 2>did for that manic period at least, like people with

0:48:23.554 --> 0:48:26.594
<v Speaker 2>some serious issues going on, and so to sort of

0:48:26.714 --> 0:48:29.794
<v Speaker 2>celebrate that is really difficult, but also to look at

0:48:29.834 --> 0:48:33.274
<v Speaker 2>it through a lens of normality is also really difficult.

0:48:33.874 --> 0:48:36.754
<v Speaker 2>And it's interesting how a lot of people wanted to

0:48:36.834 --> 0:48:40.873
<v Speaker 2>believe that she was under his control and maybe she wasn't.

0:48:40.994 --> 0:48:43.274
<v Speaker 2>She says that she wasn't, But I also don't necessarily

0:48:43.354 --> 0:48:45.514
<v Speaker 2>believe that either. There are lots of you know, she

0:48:45.634 --> 0:48:48.274
<v Speaker 2>certainly wouldn't be the first woman who's been in a

0:48:48.314 --> 0:48:50.873
<v Speaker 2>difficult relationship who is like everything's fine, totally want to

0:48:50.914 --> 0:48:53.554
<v Speaker 2>be here. He's a lovely guy like that. Whole stuff

0:48:53.634 --> 0:48:57.434
<v Speaker 2>is very it's complicated territory, right, whether or not people

0:48:57.634 --> 0:49:01.154
<v Speaker 2>know that they're being controlled or not. All we can

0:49:01.234 --> 0:49:04.234
<v Speaker 2>do is critique this on its face, and on its face,

0:49:04.354 --> 0:49:06.473
<v Speaker 2>she's like, it was an art project. You lot were

0:49:06.474 --> 0:49:08.554
<v Speaker 2>all obsessed with my boobs, but I was doing an

0:49:08.674 --> 0:49:11.554
<v Speaker 2>art project, is basically what she was. And that's the

0:49:11.674 --> 0:49:15.154
<v Speaker 2>interesting question, right is It's like, maybe it doesn't matter

0:49:15.194 --> 0:49:17.194
<v Speaker 2>at all that she was naked for a year and

0:49:17.274 --> 0:49:20.234
<v Speaker 2>we all obsessed about it. But also it's a very

0:49:20.354 --> 0:49:23.554
<v Speaker 2>unsatisfactory answer, isn't it just like it is art?

0:49:23.954 --> 0:49:25.794
<v Speaker 3>And I got to the end of it and I went,

0:49:26.874 --> 0:49:30.234
<v Speaker 3>I just had this epiphany. Biankson, sorry belongs on a

0:49:30.314 --> 0:49:34.154
<v Speaker 3>season of Maths. Yes, that's where she would thrive. I

0:49:34.274 --> 0:49:37.634
<v Speaker 3>think she'd make great reality television. I think i'd watch.

0:49:38.234 --> 0:49:40.154
<v Speaker 3>I think she'd be mashed with someone. I think she'd

0:49:40.194 --> 0:49:43.354
<v Speaker 3>have some great outfits. I think she'd have some fabulous outfits.

0:49:43.794 --> 0:49:49.354
<v Speaker 3>She's risen to this level of power that's actually quite dangerous. Yeah, well,

0:49:49.434 --> 0:49:51.593
<v Speaker 3>this is a quote that I think belongs on mass

0:49:52.074 --> 0:49:54.114
<v Speaker 3>So it says when she was a child who would

0:49:54.114 --> 0:49:57.594
<v Speaker 3>read books of factoids, so she'd have something to say

0:49:57.674 --> 0:49:59.634
<v Speaker 3>about any topic that I wrote. So I think this

0:49:59.754 --> 0:50:01.913
<v Speaker 3>is trying to paint her as like brain. She has

0:50:01.954 --> 0:50:06.154
<v Speaker 3>a bachelor's degree and a master's degree. She's she's not idiot,

0:50:06.234 --> 0:50:08.114
<v Speaker 3>so why doesn't any of this makes sense? But anyway,

0:50:08.514 --> 0:50:10.913
<v Speaker 3>she says, people would bring something up and then I'd

0:50:10.954 --> 0:50:13.634
<v Speaker 3>know something about that topic of information. She says, that's

0:50:13.674 --> 0:50:17.794
<v Speaker 3>a fun map. She says, I'm a researcher and factual.

0:50:17.914 --> 0:50:21.034
<v Speaker 3>Also great, put that in your valve that like, I

0:50:21.114 --> 0:50:23.994
<v Speaker 3>would watch that. I'm a researcher and factual. Also, I

0:50:24.754 --> 0:50:29.074
<v Speaker 3>think you're taking the piss and maybe this is also yeah,

0:50:29.514 --> 0:50:32.434
<v Speaker 3>that probably is, I know, And just all the stuff,

0:50:32.514 --> 0:50:35.514
<v Speaker 3>like even the description of what the show is in

0:50:35.674 --> 0:50:42.194
<v Speaker 3>South Korea, the performance arte and it's seven and something

0:50:42.274 --> 0:50:44.594
<v Speaker 3>about fame and having images projected on you.

0:50:44.754 --> 0:50:46.114
<v Speaker 4>But you are in control.

0:50:46.234 --> 0:50:49.474
<v Speaker 3>Apparently, it's like the Emperor's got no close. It's like

0:50:49.514 --> 0:50:53.154
<v Speaker 3>when does art just You're like, hold on, nobody's making

0:50:53.354 --> 0:50:57.674
<v Speaker 3>literally no little bit of sense. No, exactly right, exactly

0:50:58.794 --> 0:50:59.433
<v Speaker 3>out loud as I.

0:50:59.474 --> 0:51:02.634
<v Speaker 2>Hope you've had a fabulous, bad bunnyish day. We are

0:51:02.674 --> 0:51:04.794
<v Speaker 2>certainly happy to be here with you through it. Thank

0:51:04.834 --> 0:51:07.873
<v Speaker 2>you for filling in Klaid Stevens, thanks for having you

0:51:07.994 --> 0:51:10.474
<v Speaker 2>got such a pleasure, and thank you to our amazing

0:51:10.514 --> 0:51:13.234
<v Speaker 2>out loud team as always for helpings put the show together.

0:51:13.594 --> 0:51:15.834
<v Speaker 2>We will be back in your ears. Well, Miya will

0:51:15.914 --> 0:51:18.274
<v Speaker 2>certainly be back in your ears tomorrow. Who knows which

0:51:18.314 --> 0:51:21.114
<v Speaker 2>of us she will choose to sit beside her and

0:51:21.234 --> 0:51:23.434
<v Speaker 2>tomorrow's subscriber episode.

0:51:23.114 --> 0:51:25.234
<v Speaker 3>I personally prefer having a longer lunch break.

0:51:27.354 --> 0:51:29.674
<v Speaker 4>Don't tell her, she'll.

0:51:29.554 --> 0:51:30.674
<v Speaker 2>Definitely call you in.

0:51:31.594 --> 0:51:33.594
<v Speaker 4>But we'll be back in your ears tomorrow.

0:51:34.034 --> 0:51:34.314
<v Speaker 1>Bye.

0:51:40.914 --> 0:51:41.114
<v Speaker 2>Mama.

0:51:41.194 --> 0:51:44.114
<v Speaker 3>Mayor acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which

0:51:44.154 --> 0:51:45.554
<v Speaker 3>we have recorded this podcast.