Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Mom and Mia out Loud. It's
Speaker 2: what women are actually talking about on Monday, the night
Speaker 2: of February. And I am Holly Waynwright.
Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stevens, and I'm Claire Stephens, filling in for Amelia,
Speaker 3: who's going to be back on Wednesday, and also for
Speaker 3: em both of whom are gallivanting around the world while
Speaker 3: we're sitting here.
Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever been on a show with
Speaker 2: a double Stevens situation before, have I think this is
Speaker 2: a whole new thing. I'm a little bit nervous.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I hope people can tell our voices apart. I'll
Speaker 3: speak slightly deeper just for Claric. I think you have
Speaker 3: a tone of despair at the moment.
Speaker 4: I'll try to be more upbeat.
Speaker 2: You have to declare every time you speak. You'd be like,
Speaker 2: this is Jesse, this is Claire. Do not attribute my
Speaker 2: thoughts to another anyway. Don't gang up on me. That's
Speaker 2: all I'm saying on our agenda for to Claire, what
Speaker 2: have you.
Speaker 3: Got the Melinda Gates comments about the Epstein Files that
Speaker 3: I cannot stop thinking about and Bianca Ston. Sorry, we
Speaker 3: need to talk about the profile that was in Vanity Fair.
Speaker 3: She is the wife of Yee, formerly known as Kanye West.
Speaker 1: Yay, yay?
Speaker 2: Is it? Yeah?
Speaker 3: I don't like having her.
Speaker 2: She's a corrector, yay.
Speaker 3: Yeah. We talked about this on Friday show. That was
Speaker 3: actually really rude.
Speaker 2: How you just corrected me?
Speaker 3: Yay formerly known as Kanye West. She is finally ready
Speaker 3: to speak. There is just one problem and.
Speaker 2: Also dozer recipe to eats and recognizing the particular agony
Speaker 2: of losing a pet.
Speaker 3: But first, as we are recording this episode, the super
Speaker 3: Bowl is occurring. It is we don't know.
Speaker 2: We're calling it the Benito Bowl.
Speaker 3: Friends, Okay, yes, because of our friend bad.
Speaker 2: Money, Bad Bunny, And we're going to get into who
Speaker 2: why in case you're not across mister Bunny all of that.
Speaker 3: But the out louders have just let out a collective
Speaker 3: squeal because there has been imagery of friends of the Pod,
Speaker 3: Lewis Hamilton and Kim kardash In in the audience together
Speaker 3: on a date there. I think I've seen three to
Speaker 3: four seconds of footage, and I'm feeling a lot of feelings.
Speaker 2: Jessie, it must be serious, because that is a serious
Speaker 2: coming out date.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 2: You do not take someone to the Super Bowl with
Speaker 2: every camera in the world unless you're like, well.
Speaker 3: They look really happy.
Speaker 2: We kissing.
Speaker 3: They look I see happiness in his eyes. I see
Speaker 3: I see joy. She's feeling herself. She's feeling Yeah, she's
Speaker 3: feeling herself. I just think the out louders are really
Speaker 3: mad that I didn't know he was short. I can
Speaker 3: see when they sit next to each other that he's
Speaker 3: not a tall man, but she's tiny. But she's tiny,
Speaker 3: which I think is fine.
Speaker 2: We need to move off that and not onto what's
Speaker 2: happening on the field with the football, because let's be honest,
Speaker 2: that's not our specialty. It's not even Australian football. We
Speaker 2: don't understand it, not even English football. I don't even know.
Speaker 2: But what we do care about is Benita, mister bad bunny.
Speaker 2: It is Super Bowl today, it's Super Bowl Sunday, but
Speaker 2: it's Monday. But you know what I mean, right, And
Speaker 2: by the time you're listening to this, it's all happened already.
Speaker 2: And I couldn't tell you who was playing in it.
Speaker 2: I don't know because Travis Kelsey wasn't involved, So therefore
Speaker 2: my pop culture references did not coincide. But I need
Speaker 2: to give you a very quick introduction to a man
Speaker 2: whose face and potentially other body parts you have seen
Speaker 2: everywhere today, Bad Bunny.
Speaker 3: Okay, I know who he is, to be clear, but
Speaker 3: my mum would be asking who and what is a
Speaker 3: bad Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2: So if you woke up this morning and you were like,
Speaker 2: but all Bunny's bad in this case, yes, Bunny is
Speaker 2: very bad in the old fashioned nineteen eighties meaning of
Speaker 2: the word bad meaning good. He's really bad as in good.
Speaker 3: He's also hot, which isn't relevant.
Speaker 2: Really hot, so it is also if you're not fully
Speaker 2: across Bad Bunny, whose real name, by the way, is
Speaker 2: Benito Antonio Martinez Orcasio. He is the most streamed artist
Speaker 2: in the world. Last year he had more streams than
Speaker 2: anyone else, Yes, including Taylor Swift. He is huge.
Speaker 3: I've gotta not laugh because of the video.
Speaker 2: We'll get to that later. Cheat sheets. Things you need
Speaker 2: to know about Bad Bunny is that he's from Puerto Rico.
Speaker 2: He grew up in a small town there. Puerto Rico
Speaker 2: is in the Caribbean. It's a collection of Irelands. It's
Speaker 2: an American territory, so it's not like part of America,
Speaker 2: but it's governed by America and its citizens are American citizens,
Speaker 2: so he is an American citizen, which is a bit
Speaker 2: hawcs for the Mega people who keep being like, why
Speaker 2: was a foreigner headlining the super Bowl? Ah?
Speaker 4: Yes, bad argument, not a.
Speaker 2: Foreigner, but also didn't seem to mind when Coldplay were
Speaker 2: doing it. But anyway, other famous Puerto Ricans for context, j.
Speaker 3: Loo, she's done the super Bowl.
Speaker 2: She has done the Super Bowl. She with her friendship
Speaker 2: Ricky Martin. He might have done the super Bowl and
Speaker 2: they claim him they do. Manuel Miranda Benicio del Toro AOC.
Speaker 2: Lots of people, very talented people be for Puerto Rico.
Speaker 2: So mister Bunny as we shall call him, sings in
Speaker 2: Spanish only. Now. Lots of crossover Latin stars over the
Speaker 2: years who've become big deals in America in the English
Speaker 2: speaking world have also released songs in English. He has not,
Speaker 2: He says he never will. He says he doesn't care
Speaker 2: if you understand his songs or not if you don't
Speaker 2: speak Spanish. This is how he communicates his music and
Speaker 2: he does it very very well. That's hot. It's really
Speaker 2: like everything about that bunny is very hot. Traditionally, the
Speaker 2: music he makes might be called reggaeton, that's what it
Speaker 2: was called, this kind of breakthrough mix of like Jamaican
Speaker 2: dancehall and hip hop and Latin Caribbean music. And when
Speaker 2: he became a really big deal, he moved to America.
Speaker 2: He moved to the Hollywood Hills and he started dating
Speaker 2: Kendall Jenna. That's where many of us might have bumped
Speaker 2: into him. Culturally.
Speaker 3: For me, that just ran into like a whole lot
Speaker 3: of names of people who have dated Kardashians and Jenna's
Speaker 3: that I can't differentiate. So I'm glad you're kind of
Speaker 3: spelling this out.
Speaker 2: They didn't go out for all that long, by the way.
Speaker 2: And apparently the way the story goes is that after
Speaker 2: that kind of period, like that was his kind of
Speaker 2: Hollywood period, right, and then he moved back to Puerto Rico.
Speaker 2: He made the album that is just when the Grammy
Speaker 2: of the Album of the Year for which is called
Speaker 2: DeBie Tara Masfhoto, which loosely translates as I should have
Speaker 2: taken more photos And it's kind of like a breakup album.
Speaker 2: That's also about home. So maybe it could be about Kendallwi.
Speaker 2: Probably not, And it's very much about like I should
Speaker 2: have embraced the moment more. And it's sort of mashed
Speaker 2: in with all these traditional rooms and it has been massive.
Speaker 3: And the irony is like I hear all of this,
Speaker 3: and it's like, how has an artist who spans continents
Speaker 3: and like is just widely popular and beloved, How is
Speaker 3: he at the center of a culture war?
Speaker 2: Well, here we go, just in case you haven't heard
Speaker 2: Bad Money, I'm going to play you a tiny bit
Speaker 2: of his most famous song at the moment, and it's
Speaker 2: called d T MF. You know it. Here's a little
Speaker 2: tiny bit of it. Okay, we got it. We're on board.
Speaker 2: The reason he's ended up in the middle of a
Speaker 2: culture is because America, for a start, right over the
Speaker 2: last few years, the person who organizes who performs at
Speaker 2: the super Bowl halftime it's jay Z. Jay Z's Rock
Speaker 2: Nation runs the super Bowl halftime show. They have done
Speaker 2: that since the first one they did was j Loo Shakira.
Speaker 2: Then they've done Usher, they did that amazing one with
Speaker 2: all the West Coast hip hop with Dr Dre, and
Speaker 2: they did Kendrick and this year Bad Bunny, and it's
Speaker 2: largely seen as a bit of a nod to let
Speaker 2: the NFL want to remain relevant cool reflect the multicultural
Speaker 2: nature of their fans because of America multicultural nation, lots
Speaker 2: of different people play and watch football. But also it
Speaker 2: means that very often there's a little bit of friction,
Speaker 2: like a little bit of like, we're gonna like mess
Speaker 2: things up a bit here. We're not just gonna give
Speaker 2: you country stars and pop stars every time. So this
Speaker 2: year it's landed in a very feebro moment because Bad
Speaker 2: Bunny is not a particularly political person, but in the
Speaker 2: last couple of years he has been quite a critic
Speaker 2: of Trump, and he is really supportive of Puerto Ricans,
Speaker 2: and he's really against Ice and all the anti immigration rhetoric.
Speaker 3: Well even the politics of speaking Spanish in America right
Speaker 3: now with the Ice raids. Like whether or not he
Speaker 3: wanted to be political is kind of enforced exactly.
Speaker 2: So when he became the biggest person in the world
Speaker 2: last year, he could have gone, everyone says, on a
Speaker 2: massive stadium tour like Tata and made hundreds of millions,
Speaker 2: but he went, no, you know what I'm gonna do
Speaker 2: I'm gonna build a place in Puerto Rico, do a
Speaker 2: ten week residency and if you want to come see me,
Speaker 2: you come to Puerto Rico, put money into the economy
Speaker 2: here and everybody did. All the famous people went. You've
Speaker 2: all seen John Hamm going ham as it were at
Speaker 2: the concerts.
Speaker 3: Speaking of John ham you just because you showed me
Speaker 3: just a lovely video for my Monday morning morning, can
Speaker 3: you just talk to me about the relevance of bad
Speaker 3: bunnies thrusting.
Speaker 2: I don't want to be a creep. I don't want
Speaker 2: to objectify mister bunny. I don't want to suggest anything
Speaker 2: about anything except that if you watch some of the
Speaker 2: videos from that residency where he's gyrating, where he is
Speaker 2: gyrating clearly perhaps unrestrained by under Okay, it's pretty exciting.
Speaker 4: Do you think that upsets the MAGA people.
Speaker 2: I think they don't like that. They don't like the spanishness,
Speaker 2: they don't like the fact that. So for example, when
Speaker 2: he won his big award at the Grammys last week,
Speaker 2: he did speak out against ice. He also said, you know,
Speaker 2: we are not He was talking about Puerto Ricans, obviously,
Speaker 2: and he was like, we're not savage. We're not animals,
Speaker 2: we're not aliens. We are humans and we are Americans.
Speaker 2: That would not necessarily seem like an outrageous thing to say,
Speaker 2: but where it lands now anyway, So lots of pressure
Speaker 2: on mister Bunny for the halftime show. Is he going
Speaker 2: to be political? Is he going to be polytical? You
Speaker 2: would know that by now because it will have happened.
Speaker 3: But unfortunately for bad Bunny, there is a competitor. There's
Speaker 3: another super Bowl happening, and who is headlining that?
Speaker 2: So Turning Point USA, which is the charity run by
Speaker 2: Erica Kirk after the widow of Charlie Kirk, they decided
Speaker 2: to put on at the same time what they are
Speaker 2: calling an alternative all American halftime show with a couple
Speaker 2: of country singers and Kid Rock as headliner.
Speaker 3: I don't want to watch that one, rather watch they.
Speaker 2: There will be too many underpans. Do we feel that
Speaker 2: we know now who Benito is? Oh?
Speaker 3: Yes, and I'm very excited. I'm very excited to watch
Speaker 3: this halftime show as soon as we're out of this studio. Same,
Speaker 3: I am desperate to talk about Melinda Gates. So it's
Speaker 3: been just over a week since the release of millions
Speaker 3: of files relating to late convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein
Speaker 3: and his correspondents with some of the world's most powerful men.
Speaker 3: We talked about ailon Musk on last Monday show. The
Speaker 3: sheer volume of the files is overwhelming and sickening, but
Speaker 3: among them is a draft email written by Epstein claiming
Speaker 3: that tech billionaire Bill Gates contracted a sexually transmitted disease
Speaker 3: after sleeping with Russian girls. That's how he's written it,
Speaker 3: and had asked Epstein to get him antibiotics to secretly
Speaker 3: give to his then wife. Days after the files were released,
Speaker 3: Bill Gates's ex wife, Melinda Gates, was interviewed on MPR's
Speaker 3: wild Card podcast, and here's a bit of what she said.
Speaker 1: For me, it's personally hard whenever those details come up,
Speaker 1: right because brings back memories of some very very painful
Speaker 1: times in my marriage. But I have moved on from that.
Speaker 1: I purposely pushed it away and I moved on.
Speaker 2: I'm in a really.
Speaker 1: Unexpected, beautiful place in my life. So whatever questions remain
Speaker 1: there of what I don't can't even begin to know
Speaker 1: all of it. Those questions are for those people and
Speaker 1: from even my ex husband. They need to answer to
Speaker 1: those things, not me well, and I am so happy
Speaker 1: to be away from all the muck that it was there.
Speaker 3: Later in the week, Bill Gates did answer to the allegations.
Speaker 3: He said the claims in the email were false and
Speaker 3: he didn't know what Epstein was thinking there. But Melinda
Speaker 3: Gates publicly weighing in begs the question what do we
Speaker 3: owe an X and are we culpable for their sins?
Speaker 2: Holly, I think Melinda Gates is in a really tricky
Speaker 2: position here, and I think she's carrying herself with a
Speaker 2: lot of class. So I interviewed flex I introd I
Speaker 2: Introdude that was like that too. She was really impressed
Speaker 2: with that. I interviewed Melinda French Gates last year when
Speaker 2: her book came out the next day, which is all
Speaker 2: about rebuilding after trauma or after big changes and transitions, right,
Speaker 2: And in that book she speaks kind and obviously I
Speaker 2: read the book, she speaks kind of obliquely about the
Speaker 2: fact that after her and Bill were together for a
Speaker 2: really long time, they had three kids, they've built this
Speaker 2: huge foundation together that she was running and very much
Speaker 2: part of. She's kind of clear about the fact there
Speaker 2: was just stuff going on that she could no longer ignore. Like,
Speaker 2: reading between the lines, you kind of got the impression
Speaker 2: that she tolerated a certain amount of things. That's not
Speaker 2: what she says, but that's kind of the impression you get.
Speaker 3: He admitted to an affair, Yes.
Speaker 2: He admitted to an affair, and then it became untenable
Speaker 2: for her, is the vibe that you get. And as
Speaker 2: this muck literal muck is coming out, I think we're
Speaker 2: beginning to get a picture of what that might have
Speaker 2: been like. I think it's really hard because she is,
Speaker 2: without doubt, a deeply principled, serious person. She comes across
Speaker 2: that way. She's like that when you talk to her.
Speaker 2: She's very head girl energy. She was a computer science major.
Speaker 2: She's so brainy. She obviously believed so deeply in everything
Speaker 2: they'd built together, and she doesn't want to trash the
Speaker 2: father of her kids. But on the other hand, this
Speaker 2: stuff coming out is so horrendous. I think it puts
Speaker 2: the women in these men's lives in a really difficult position.
Speaker 3: She didn't have to acknowledge it, and I don't think
Speaker 3: that answering to your ex's potential misdeeds or allegations against
Speaker 3: them is on you to answer. So the fact she
Speaker 3: did is clearly like she was comfortable making a statement.
Speaker 3: But I keep thinking. There was a brilliant column by
Speaker 3: Julia Baird published by the ABS over the weekend about
Speaker 3: how these are meant to be, like the names that
Speaker 3: come up in this, from Deepak ch Opra to Nome
Speaker 3: Chompsky to Bill Gates, these are meant to be the
Speaker 3: brightest minds that the planet has potentially ever seen. Right,
Speaker 3: and yet these men had allegedly no idea that Jeffrey Epstein,
Speaker 3: who is at this stage been accused of sex trafficking assault,
Speaker 3: basically victimizing more than one thousand women. The fact that
Speaker 3: none of those men have willfully come forward and said,
Speaker 3: you know what, I did smell that something was off.
Speaker 3: They've all gone what, which is interesting given that so
Speaker 3: many women, including Melinda Gates, have come out and said
Speaker 3: I felt it, I saw it. So Melinda Gates in
Speaker 3: twenty twenty two told Gail King that she'd met with
Speaker 3: Epstein one time because she wanted to see what kind
Speaker 3: of man he was, and she said, I regretted it
Speaker 3: the second I walked in the door. He was a Borrn.
Speaker 3: He was evil personified. I had nightmares about it afterwards.
Speaker 3: How is it that the dozens and dozens potentially hundreds
Speaker 3: of men that come up in the files never say
Speaker 3: anything like that. This isn't just like you know, normal guys.
Speaker 3: They're meant to be real, like business entrepreneurs and like
Speaker 3: they read people really well and they're running the world,
Speaker 3: and yet they can't tell when they're sitting across from
Speaker 3: a sexual predator. There was no critical thinking. And I
Speaker 3: mean the important thing is that he was convicted by
Speaker 3: the time. Yeah, these a lot of the more acknowledging
Speaker 3: that in their correspondence.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: The person that I'm obsessed with in this situation as
Speaker 3: well is award winning writer and editor in chief Tina Brown,
Speaker 3: who wrote on her sub stack that when she was
Speaker 3: editor of The Daily Beast in twenty ten, she got
Speaker 3: a call from a pr person asking her to come
Speaker 3: to dinner with then Prince Andrew. It was hosted by
Speaker 3: Epstein and Woody Allen would also be attending. Her response
Speaker 3: is iconic. She said, what the F is this?
Speaker 4: Peggy?
Speaker 3: The pedophiles ball? And I just think, why were men
Speaker 3: not reacting like that?
Speaker 2: The most cynical read answer to that question because they
Speaker 2: don't care that, you know that what was clearly being
Speaker 2: built by epsy. And we talked about this a bit
Speaker 2: last week. Last Monday, he was obviously scratching the backs
Speaker 2: of enough powerful people and an important enough connector fundraiser,
Speaker 2: benefactor that his peccadillos as they saw them, like oh
Speaker 2: maybe he's I mean, like, this is a generous read.
Speaker 2: Let me just put that out there, A very generous
Speaker 2: read of like, oh maybe he's a bit and wouldn't
Speaker 2: leave your daughter with him kind of thing was not
Speaker 2: important enough to them in the scheme of things for
Speaker 2: them to feel that they had to distance themselves, and that, unfortunately,
Speaker 2: is a pattern you see played out a lot in
Speaker 2: these kind of circles where it's like, so he's not
Speaker 2: great with women, whatever that might mean, and that could
Speaker 2: mean anything from maybe just not a good boyfriend to
Speaker 2: downright abusive. But hey, you know he's important, he'll get
Speaker 2: things done, he's a connector, you know, he's an important guy.
Speaker 2: I feel for the wives, except for the ones who
Speaker 2: seemed clearly complicit, like perhaps Sarah Ferguson, former Duchess of York,
Speaker 2: whose emails jest that she was very close to Epstein
Speaker 2: and she relied on him for lots of things.
Speaker 3: Which is at odds with what she said publicly.
Speaker 2: And also I feel for the adult daughters of these men,
Speaker 2: I really do, because I think there's a particular betrayal,
Speaker 2: and that includes obviously princesses Eugenie Beatrice who seemed to
Speaker 2: be having quite different reactions to what's going on with
Speaker 2: their dad, but to Bill Gates's kids too. I think
Speaker 2: there's a particular betrayal that young women feel understanding that
Speaker 2: their dads could or did or do treat other young
Speaker 2: women in at best a dismissive way and at worst
Speaker 2: a potentially abusive way. I think that's a really difficult
Speaker 2: head scramble, and I just do have a lot of
Speaker 2: empathy for those young women as well as obviously more
Speaker 2: and most empathy always to the victims who keep being
Speaker 2: thrown under the bus, named rolled out to give evidence
Speaker 2: in situations.
Speaker 3: Well well, other names are redacted. And Melinda Gates actually
Speaker 3: in that statement, she goes on to say when she's
Speaker 3: talking in the podcast, and I'm pretty sure that every
Speaker 3: time she's made just talked about the victims and the
Speaker 3: men who have come out to clear their names and go.
Speaker 2: I didn't know.
Speaker 4: I didn't even get that email. I was manipulated.
Speaker 3: Most men never ever acknowledge that there even were victims.
Speaker 3: It's more about clearing their names. Their own name. And
Speaker 3: as you were saying, Jesse, about these are meant to
Speaker 3: be intelligent, successful, high functioning men. Bill Gates's response didn't
Speaker 3: even make sense, like that the email was false. I
Speaker 3: don't know why Epstein did that. Can you give some
Speaker 3: kind of insight into why you were close with this person?
Speaker 3: And this is why this trial feels like, I said,
Speaker 3: such a standstill, because it's like someone here knows something.
Speaker 3: Come on, who saw andrew on all fours? Who saw
Speaker 3: like something at a party that you walked in? And
Speaker 3: a few people have come out and said, I saw
Speaker 3: something at a party that was a little bit weird.
Speaker 3: But it's like they're holding hands and deciding not to speak,
Speaker 3: which some people have come out and said, it's almost
Speaker 3: like this QAnon thing that was coming out years ago
Speaker 3: with the tinfoil hats is coming true. The idea that
Speaker 3: there's some kind of elite pedophile ring running the world.
Speaker 3: There seems to be some credibility to that, and at
Speaker 3: what point are they going to drop each other's hands
Speaker 3: and start telling on each.
Speaker 2: Other on the fact of women with terrible exes?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: And I know that's a very broad spectrum, but this
Speaker 2: rumor about the STI is so upsetting and so awful
Speaker 2: and humiliating, exactly humiliating. And if that was you, you would
Speaker 2: hate for that to be out there. But the thing
Speaker 2: that is really important that she has said, and I
Speaker 2: think is so important that we all get our heads
Speaker 2: around again and again and again. The shame is not hers.
Speaker 2: The shame is his. If that story is true. Maybe
Speaker 2: it is, maybe it isn't. The shame is not hers.
Speaker 2: The humiliation shouldn't be hers. It's his entirely, And there's
Speaker 2: no reason for her to hang ahead or go silent
Speaker 2: or any of those things. I think we've just got
Speaker 2: to keep pushing that shame back that everybody always wants
Speaker 2: to put on women, Like how embarrassing for you? That's
Speaker 2: awful for you, poor you. It's like what about that guy?
Speaker 2: You know? So I have a lot of respect for
Speaker 2: the fact that she addressed it. Even though she did
Speaker 2: so in the most careful, liber and emotional terms that
Speaker 2: she could, her voice was heard.
Speaker 3: And the fact that she said the questions are for
Speaker 3: those men. That was an understated thing to say, but
Speaker 3: there are still so many men named in there that
Speaker 3: have not even acknowledged it, or who have previously said
Speaker 3: things that are now completely proved to not be true
Speaker 3: and don't seem to need to confront that publicly.
Speaker 4: I agree.
Speaker 3: I think we've had this rhetoric for the last few
Speaker 3: years about believe women, believe women, and it's become almost mocked.
Speaker 3: And then you look at this and you go, there
Speaker 3: are so many women who have come forward. Epstein has
Speaker 3: been found to have been a convicted sex offender in Call,
Speaker 3: and yet all of those women were not believed until
Speaker 3: these documents came out. And even still, I don't think
Speaker 3: we're getting the reckoning that I would like to see.
Speaker 2: After the break recipes and eats Dozer and how the
Speaker 2: loss of a pet really really matters.
Speaker 5: It's mea out louders and I'm back in your ears
Speaker 5: twice a week on Tuesdays and Thursdays exclusively for Muma
Speaker 5: Miya subscribers, and this week I want to talk about
Speaker 5: some weird shit.
Speaker 2: First of all, the weird shit that.
Speaker 5: Comes with the way different generations parent who is on
Speaker 5: top of the leaderboard? Is it x's, is it boomers
Speaker 5: or is it millennials? Holly Jesse and I have such
Speaker 5: an interesting chat about that, and you'll be shocked to
Speaker 5: hear we don't agree. And then I'm desperate to talk
Speaker 5: to you about the deeply weird twin shit that's going
Speaker 5: on around here, so weird, and we have a bit
Speaker 5: of a surprise that's coming on Thursday, if I can
Speaker 5: wait that long. So, if you're not already a subscriber,
Speaker 5: follow the link in the show notes to get us
Speaker 5: in your ears five days a week and you will
Speaker 5: be the first to hear some great gossip.
Speaker 2: A very famous Australian dog has died, and we need
Speaker 2: to talk about the very specific grief of losing a pet.
Speaker 2: If you've ever clicked on a recipe to eats recipe
Speaker 2: or bought one of Nagi Mahashi's million selling cookbooks, you
Speaker 2: know who Dosa is because Doza is all over recipe.
Speaker 2: He eats, his face is on the cookbooks on the website.
Speaker 2: He's always at any of her public events. He's been
Speaker 2: on play School, he's been on the cover of the
Speaker 2: Big Issue. Because Nagi has a big charitable arm with
Speaker 2: recipes in the kitchen. He's been you know, in a
Speaker 2: children's book. He's a very famous dog. Last week, Nagi
Speaker 2: shared that he was really, really unwell, that he'd entered
Speaker 2: veterinary I see you on January the twenty second with
Speaker 2: a double lung infection. She posted at the time that
Speaker 2: she was going to take a step back from work
Speaker 2: for a little while to be with him. She said,
Speaker 2: I've cried a thousand tears and there's a million more
Speaker 2: to come. He died last Thursday, February the fifth, and
Speaker 2: she announced it on her socials yesterday. The post, which
Speaker 2: was a beautiful video of Doza, just said, he didn't
Speaker 2: make it. My heart is shattered. Look, the loss of
Speaker 2: a pet is extremely common grief. Everyone around this table
Speaker 2: has experienced it, and I'm sure most of the out
Speaker 2: louders listening to this have Why is it a grief
Speaker 2: that we downplay a bit? And do we agree with
Speaker 2: this article that I read on the ABC last week
Speaker 2: that said recipe Tineat's Nagi Mahashi is normalizing taking time
Speaker 2: off for pets. Here's why that matters in it. A
Speaker 2: psychologist called Amanda Ferguson was quoted as saying, if people
Speaker 2: don't take the time they need to grieve a sick
Speaker 2: or dying pet, it can be detrimental to their mental
Speaker 2: health and end up with a problem called rested grief
Speaker 2: or adjustment disorder. She said that sensitive workplace leaders record
Speaker 2: as the need for people to take time off with
Speaker 2: their pets to grieve. What do we think?
Speaker 3: I would say, firstly, just on that kind of insight
Speaker 3: from a psychologist, that it's important to acknowledge that not
Speaker 3: everybody grieves the same way, and sometimes distraction can be
Speaker 3: really good, and being around people can be really good
Speaker 3: rather than being on your own. But in terms of Nagi,
Speaker 3: that video, just I watched it and just you can't
Speaker 3: watch it without crying.
Speaker 4: Just give it a go.
Speaker 3: But she wrote in it, thank you Doza for the
Speaker 3: best years of my life. And I thought that was
Speaker 3: actually a really profound statement, because when we grieve a pet,
Speaker 3: it's often not just the pet that we're grieving. I
Speaker 3: lost my fourteen year old, beautiful gentleman Caesar in April
Speaker 3: last year, and you are grieving that dog and the
Speaker 3: familiar sound of their footsteps in your house and the
Speaker 3: snort and all of that, But you're also grieving the
Speaker 3: fact that this has been a fixture of your life
Speaker 3: for a period of time, and that they represent the
Speaker 3: inevitability of everything ending. And it can be about how
Speaker 3: time just keeps speeding up and all of us are
Speaker 3: moving closer and closer in the direction of facing our
Speaker 3: own mortality. With Nagi, I imagine just from the information
Speaker 3: I've seen, that she was in a similar position to
Speaker 3: what we were in that your dog is really, really
Speaker 3: really unwell.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he'd been unwell the year before, and yes, early
Speaker 2: in the year been hospitalized, I think too, Yes.
Speaker 3: And the hard thing with pets is that very often
Speaker 3: the person who loves the most has to make the
Speaker 3: call at some point, and there's a lot of guilt
Speaker 3: and weird emotion wrapped up in that. I remember thinking
Speaker 3: with Caesar, Caesar outlived his life expectancy by eighteen months,
Speaker 3: and still I felt like a monster having to make
Speaker 3: the decision. And there's something so confronting about the fact
Speaker 3: that they can't tell you when they're ready, or if
Speaker 3: they're going to have a second wind or anything like that.
Speaker 2: I Caesar was given a period of time that he
Speaker 2: was expected to live.
Speaker 3: Wasn't he any Yeah, defied he defied it. And in
Speaker 3: some ways the death of an animal can be more
Speaker 3: dignified than the death of a human in the way
Speaker 3: that you euthanize, and it can be really peaceful and stuff.
Speaker 3: And in other ways, there's no ritual, there's no marker
Speaker 3: of grief in the same way there is for a human.
Speaker 3: People don't all wear black and turn up to a
Speaker 3: funeral and say eulogies, right, that would seem ridiculous. And
Speaker 3: there is this kind of cultural snootiness, probably because when
Speaker 3: your grandfather dies, there aren't people who go, no, I
Speaker 3: don't like grandfathers. I've never been a grandfather person. They
Speaker 3: kind of annoy me and I find them yappy. Point.
Speaker 3: But with dogs and with cats and with any pet
Speaker 3: that's in a family, kind of either get it or
Speaker 3: you don't. So there's a cultural snootiness. But then in
Speaker 3: the same way, I was so heartened to read all
Speaker 3: the comments. There were tens of thousands of comments of
Speaker 3: people who just got it that this is like a
Speaker 3: member of your family, and they represent so many seasons
Speaker 3: and moments of our family. Dog who we got kind
Speaker 3: of just as I became a teenager, and when Ted died,
Speaker 3: it was like I was mourning that period and all
Speaker 3: the times, whether it was heartbreak or whether it was
Speaker 3: getting home really late at night, or any season I
Speaker 3: was in, he was there and he was there, sitting
Speaker 3: there kind of keeping me company. And there's just this
Speaker 3: simplicity to the relationship with a dog that there isn't
Speaker 3: with humans that I find so beautiful.
Speaker 2: I have a theory that a dog, in particular, if
Speaker 2: you're a dog person, is like a place you put
Speaker 2: your feelings. Like a dog allows you to be silly
Speaker 2: with them, you know, when you would never be silly
Speaker 2: in front of anybody else, And they allow you to
Speaker 2: cuddle them, as you say, when they are sad, and
Speaker 2: run around with them, and they offer you all these
Speaker 2: wonderful things. But I also think they are place to
Speaker 2: put When people think that grief for a lost pet
Speaker 2: is outsized, I think that they're often not considering all
Speaker 2: the things you've said about what they represent. But also,
Speaker 2: I don't know, because of that simplicity of that relationship,
Speaker 2: but it allows you to express a lot of things
Speaker 2: that you would find difficult to do in a more
Speaker 2: complex relationship. When we lost our beautiful dog Elvy, And
Speaker 2: there'll be people listening to this who are like, I
Speaker 2: can't even listen to this because it's so upsetting, Like
Speaker 2: people get very upset, and rightly so. But when we
Speaker 2: lost our beautiful dog, Elvy, it was a surprise. It
Speaker 2: wasn't a long illness, and we were all really shocked
Speaker 2: by how much it messed with us, not least Brent, right,
Speaker 2: he was absolutely devastated. And I remember at the time
Speaker 2: I got a message from someone I didn't know, an
Speaker 2: out louder probably, who said, my husband lost his brother
Speaker 2: and he didn't cry, but when he lost the family dog,
Speaker 2: he fell to pieces. That doesn't mean that he loved
Speaker 2: the dog more than he loved his brother. It means
Speaker 2: that you can put your feelings in this simple relationship
Speaker 2: in a way that you can't in a more complex one.
Speaker 2: That it kind of takes you by surprise how much
Speaker 2: you have kind of invested in that. And also to
Speaker 2: your earlier point, Claire, I think it's such a tangible loss,
Speaker 2: particularly if you live alone. My neighbor's just recently lost
Speaker 2: her dog, and she's a widow who lives alone. But
Speaker 2: it's such a tangible loss that might not actually be
Speaker 2: real in other situations have lost someone you see every
Speaker 2: day who lives in your house, who is a fixture
Speaker 2: of every daily routine that you make, whether it's getting
Speaker 2: up and taking them for a walk or what you
Speaker 2: do in the evenings, Like they are a fixture of
Speaker 2: your day every day, design your life around them, and
Speaker 2: so I think that that's why it upends everything so much,
Speaker 2: as well as just obviously the pure love you feel.
Speaker 2: I think it's beautiful that Nagi has said she needs time.
Speaker 3: And the fact that she's had this astronomical success and
Speaker 3: you've got this dog. He doesn't give a share, whether
Speaker 3: it's the best or an award or how much money
Speaker 3: you've got, just absolutely doesn't care. Is just they're no
Speaker 3: matter what. I think that there's something grounding about that.
Speaker 3: We talked off Friday about mattering, and I think people
Speaker 3: who and you know, not everyone has the relationship with
Speaker 3: their dog that Nagi did, but there are people who
Speaker 3: like wake up in the morning like that's for a
Speaker 3: lot of people, their purpose is like looking after their dog.
Speaker 3: It gives them a sense of purpose every single day,
Speaker 3: and then that evaporates overnight. I also think one of
Speaker 3: the reasons it is quite shattering, is because most of
Speaker 3: us are really insulated from the reality of death, especially
Speaker 3: if you haven't seen, you know, your parents go through it,
Speaker 3: if you haven't been confronted with it in a really
Speaker 3: close way, holding your pet's hand and watching as the
Speaker 3: light goes out of their eyes and they take a
Speaker 3: breath in and don't take a breath out. That is
Speaker 3: it might be the first time you've ever in Canada. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's a really destabilizing type of grief. And I think,
Speaker 3: as you say, Holly, it then becomes a bit of
Speaker 3: a channel to put a lot of a lot of feelings.
Speaker 3: And I remember thinking with Caesar because I just could
Speaker 3: not believe how I cried and how distraught I was.
Speaker 3: And then I thought that maybe it's it's kind of
Speaker 3: this weird tear through time where you momentarily feel the
Speaker 3: weight of what you've already lost. So with the person
Speaker 3: you were saying who didn't cry for their brother, they
Speaker 3: probably are crying for their brother through their dog, and
Speaker 3: then what they're still is to lose. I remember looking
Speaker 3: at Caesar and it's just a reminder of mortality and
Speaker 3: how terrifying that is, and you're confronted with it in
Speaker 3: a way that so few of us are in the
Speaker 3: modern world.
Speaker 2: I want to send massive love both to Nagi of
Speaker 2: course and all the fans of Dozer, but to any
Speaker 2: out louders who are struggling with loss of all kinds
Speaker 2: like I think that one of the reasons why that
Speaker 2: you get a big reaction to a story like this,
Speaker 2: And I know a lot of people. When Nagi posted
Speaker 2: that Dozer was unwell last year and then also in
Speaker 2: recent weeks, people have been really invested and worrying about
Speaker 2: him and posting about him and talking about it. And
Speaker 2: I think it's because it's a grief we can very
Speaker 2: many of us that can touch and understand. So massive
Speaker 2: love to you out louders.
Speaker 3: Okay, do you guys remember the Coldplay kiss Camp?
Speaker 4: How could we not?
Speaker 3: Oh the couple kissing on the Jumpertron who then jumped
Speaker 3: apart as soon as they appeared on the big screen
Speaker 3: because turns out they were both married to other people.
Speaker 2: How long ago was that? Do you think it's one
Speaker 2: of those moments in time? Yeah, we all moved.
Speaker 3: On, Yeah, but yeah, it was really fun for the
Speaker 3: whole family.
Speaker 4: I thought likely.
Speaker 3: Families exactly, so fun for all of us except mostly
Speaker 3: two people in their families. So a man named Andy Byron,
Speaker 3: who was the CEO of a company called Astronomer, and
Speaker 3: the woman he was cheating on his wife with his
Speaker 3: human resources executive, Christian Cabot, Well, a bit of who
Speaker 3: wasn't even cheating? She was separated.
Speaker 4: She was separated.
Speaker 3: Yes, I feel like that's an important detail that we
Speaker 3: need to keep reminding people. Well she has don't worry okay,
Speaker 3: so but a bit of an update, so I know
Speaker 3: you guys were hanging out to know what has been
Speaker 3: happening since for just eight hundred and seventy five dollars.
Speaker 3: You can hear Christian Cabot speak at a one day
Speaker 3: Crisis Comm's conference about how she took control of the
Speaker 3: narrative and rewrote her story. My first question was, did
Speaker 3: she should I miss that.
Speaker 4: Popular yeah, opinion.
Speaker 2: Like she gave that interview to the New York Time.
Speaker 3: Well, so the description her like kind of bio for
Speaker 3: the conference said, while attending a Coldplay concert in July,
Speaker 3: there would go middle of last year and unwittingly appearing
Speaker 3: on the kiss cam, Kristian Cabot's life blew up. She
Speaker 3: experienced firsthand the extremity of public shaming that women have
Speaker 3: long experienced when in the negative spotlight of the media,
Speaker 3: won their male counterparts often seemed to avoid. I would
Speaker 3: argue Andy Byron did not avoid that in this particular situation.
Speaker 3: But in terms of crisis comms, you're exactly right, Holly.
Speaker 3: She did an interview with The New York Times in December.
Speaker 3: I missed it, which I'm obsessed with this story of
Speaker 3: the passing of time. Is that no one cares.
Speaker 4: I know that.
Speaker 3: That's part of the strategy, is that you wait for
Speaker 3: everything to blow over, and then you go, I'm ready
Speaker 3: to tell my story, and everyone's like who.
Speaker 2: But also crucially, everybody's already made up your story in
Speaker 2: their head. So when she gave that interview to the
Speaker 2: New York Times, she did give some very important details,
Speaker 2: like the fact she was separated, like the fact that
Speaker 2: their relationship didn't continue. It did for a hot minute
Speaker 2: and then it didn't. It was the first time she
Speaker 2: kissed him, Yeah, exactly. Allegedly, she gave all these details.
Speaker 2: But the thing is is we'd all gone cheetahs, dirty
Speaker 2: ditty cheetahs, and we just didn't have space to listen to.
Speaker 4: But when you actually read it.
Speaker 3: It's a brilliant interview and what she says about public
Speaker 3: shaming and trying to teach your kids that it's okay
Speaker 3: to make mistakes while she's being yelled at in the
Speaker 3: street for being a home wreck card can I.
Speaker 4: Ask, do you guys reckon?
Speaker 3: She should write a book? Do you reckon? Anyone would
Speaker 3: buy it?
Speaker 2: Whole book?
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I think she could write an essay
Speaker 3: I'd read. I wouldn't so once I'm wondering, I'm wondering
Speaker 3: how she can make a buck.
Speaker 2: Well, well, here she can talk at pre conferences, Holly.
Speaker 3: I read that even though they're charging that much for
Speaker 3: a day, that she's not getting paid.
Speaker 2: Why would you do it if you weren't getting paid?
Speaker 3: So here's she's unemployed.
Speaker 2: Well, this is what I mean. So I would expect
Speaker 2: she was getting paid because the problem with this kind
Speaker 2: of fame, this is a very tricky, particular kind of
Speaker 2: notoriety infamy. Right. So I remember at the time people
Speaker 2: said that story will follow these people everywhere. She'll go
Speaker 2: off and get another job in corporate comms or whatever
Speaker 2: she was doing. Hr he lost his job, but he'll
Speaker 2: go and get another CEO job somewhere as some non
Speaker 2: high profile company and everyone will forget about it. And
Speaker 2: then people are like, but would they like, if Christian
Speaker 2: Cabbot turn up in your pilates class, would you be like,
Speaker 2: that's the sea lady.
Speaker 3: But the interesting thing is I didn't know her name
Speaker 3: or I couldn't recognize her face.
Speaker 2: That's why this is a tricky thing to get right,
Speaker 2: isn't it Because by following it up and putting the
Speaker 2: record straight, she now has entered the public conversation in
Speaker 2: a way that maybe she wouldn't have needed to. But then,
Speaker 2: on the other hand, she does have an interesting story
Speaker 2: to tell about what happens when you get busted cheating
Speaker 2: at a Coldplay concert and the entire world, like Australia, India,
Speaker 2: everywhere in the world is showing your face on the
Speaker 2: telly and being like, look at these idiots loll like and.
Speaker 3: Imagine if we're at work and they were like, hey,
Speaker 3: new HR person, it's Kristin Cabot and you went, oh,
Speaker 3: I kind.
Speaker 2: Of can you imagine the group?
Speaker 3: Yeah, didn't she have an affair with a CEO? Like
Speaker 3: it also was probably incongruous with the role she wants
Speaker 3: to do. So she probably does need a career a pivot,
Speaker 3: but I think she needs better advice if she's doing
Speaker 3: conferences for free. Yeah yeah, yeah, not a good myths
Speaker 3: this movie, I reckon.
Speaker 2: We have to pay then.
Speaker 3: For their Wayah, I reckon in a couple of years,
Speaker 3: I'd watch a docco. I think she should produce the
Speaker 3: document do flick stocko through Parter. Yeah. If Chris Martin
Speaker 3: was in interview, yes, because the I want Gwyneth Paltrow.
Speaker 2: She was really so, she was really mad about Gwyneth.
Speaker 2: That was another thing that Kristin Cabot said in the
Speaker 2: New York Times. Thing because people will remember. Maybe they won't,
Speaker 2: but I clearly do that Gwyneth jumped on very quickly
Speaker 2: and didn't add for Astronomer, which was genius pre moved
Speaker 2: from astronomer. But it kind of really took the piss
Speaker 2: out of the situation. And we all thought that was funny.
Speaker 2: But Kristin Cabot did not. She thought it was mean
Speaker 2: and unsisterly. How dare she say those things about my Gwyneth?
Speaker 3: She said, you're the one who talked about unconscious uncoupling,
Speaker 3: and now you're making fun of me.
Speaker 4: It would be really hard to be. I don't know.
Speaker 3: I do think there's something in it. I do think
Speaker 3: there's a career opportunity. I would go to the session
Speaker 3: if it was free, I wouldn't pay it. Fair after
Speaker 3: the Break the most bamboozling celebrity profile I have ever
Speaker 3: personally read. Okay, have we all read the Bianca Sensory
Speaker 3: profile in Vanity Fail?
Speaker 4: Every word?
Speaker 2: I have and look. I like Vanity Fair. I respect
Speaker 2: their journalism, but that story was too long. What actually
Speaker 2: happened in that story? Nothing? All right?
Speaker 3: This is what I need to get to the bottom of.
Speaker 3: So a reminder, Censory is the wife of Yay formerly
Speaker 3: known as Kanye West. She grew up in Melbourne, and
Speaker 3: let's all be honest and transparent about what she's best
Speaker 3: known for, and that would be how she dresses, or
Speaker 3: rather doesn't. She three years she's been with him, and
Speaker 3: for most of her public appearances she has been somewhat naked.
Speaker 3: She's been naked so Grammy's last year, she wore a
Speaker 3: naked dress, but like it was completely see through and
Speaker 3: in order to I think that we put a picture
Speaker 3: on our Instagram, and I think that meta punished us
Speaker 3: Like it was you could see nipples, you could see bottom,
Speaker 3: you could see everything.
Speaker 2: There was also a lot of pap shots where she
Speaker 2: appeared to not be wearing anything in public.
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly right, although sometimes she covers her face and
Speaker 3: everything else is kind of nude. So she's worn fishnets
Speaker 3: with no underwear underneath. She has worn a like plastic
Speaker 3: sea through poncho, again no underwear. Sheer naked body suits
Speaker 3: stockings like you can see she's got stockings, but then
Speaker 3: she's also got stockings on her head. You get the drift,
Speaker 3: So vanity fair. This article seems to be an attempt
Speaker 3: to rehabilitate sensory and by extension, Yay's image. There have
Speaker 3: been stories coming out about what Yay has said for
Speaker 3: literally years. We have touched on some of them. Some
Speaker 3: of them are almost too borrent to go into. And
Speaker 3: the line between mental illness and hate speech and what
Speaker 3: sense can be made of any of it, we've kind
Speaker 3: of struggled to work that out at times. Back to sensory,
Speaker 3: the profile starts with the sentence Bianca Sensory says she's
Speaker 3: done being naked. Did you notice that nowhere did she say.
Speaker 2: That it's going to be awkward having a bath having
Speaker 2: sex like she needs to be that.
Speaker 3: She needs to be naked sometimes. And also the feature
Speaker 3: image on the article is her riding a horse naked. Naked, Yeah,
Speaker 3: I worry about fleets.
Speaker 2: I can't be entirely done with being naked. No, not really.
Speaker 3: No, I worry about the cleanliness of the horse and
Speaker 3: what my climb up. That's why we don't straddle horses nude.
Speaker 2: It's that why.
Speaker 4: That's why.
Speaker 3: That's why.
Speaker 2: I thought that might be other reasons.
Speaker 3: But guys, she's ready to expect. Paragraph four, she ready
Speaker 3: to speak. Paragraph eight, she is ready to speak. I
Speaker 3: don't understand a single thing, she says. A nice entire article.
Speaker 4: I'm trying to be kind.
Speaker 3: I'm trying. But the high lights I suppose when she
Speaker 3: says I love my artwork, which I think is her nudity.
Speaker 3: She also asks the author of the piece to tell
Speaker 3: the Vanity Fair editor that last year she was the
Speaker 3: most googled woman in the world.
Speaker 2: That's my favorite part of this.
Speaker 3: I really enjoyed that detail. And she said, it's not
Speaker 3: about me bragging. Basically, she says, it is not a
Speaker 3: position that anybody in time has ever had that much
Speaker 3: visibility without speech, which is like, if you ever wanted
Speaker 3: to say anything, everyone's listening. It's just you have stockings
Speaker 3: on your head. But I also kind of I'm not
Speaker 3: quite sure about that. I'm like, oh, I don't know, Cleopatra,
Speaker 3: what'd she say?
Speaker 4: Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Marilyn Monroe modlight weird. Yeah, actually that revelationary that women
Speaker 2: are seen and not heard. She didn't get the cover,
Speaker 2: by the way, Tayana Taylor got the cover. She's asking
Speaker 2: to dominated Bianca do better.
Speaker 4: Sorry, sorry, mate, your performance.
Speaker 3: So ann Appeal, who is the author, wants to know
Speaker 3: who is in control of her life because that's been
Speaker 3: a big theme. Is like, is Bianca sen sorry being controlled?
Speaker 2: Because yay, Like among all the awful shit he's said
Speaker 2: in the past couple of years, he has quite explicitly
Speaker 2: said at times that.
Speaker 3: He was controlling her yep, and that she tried to leave.
Speaker 3: He posted he posted on x I have dominion over
Speaker 3: my wife in capitals. Yeah, he released a song. I
Speaker 3: think that was all about where she went and like
Speaker 3: it's really scary stuff.
Speaker 4: So it's not like a weird question to ask, no,
Speaker 4: but she.
Speaker 3: Keeps giving answers, like a tree is the shape of
Speaker 3: a tree because that's what nature does, or whatever. What
Speaker 3: does a house want to be? And that I feel
Speaker 3: will be my life's work. I don't understand what's going on.
Speaker 3: I don't understand.
Speaker 2: Look generally speaking, I quite like it when celebrities are
Speaker 2: bat shit. I generally think I don't want my celebrities
Speaker 2: to be dislike me. I am boring, I go to
Speaker 2: the shops, I scrub toilet. I don't want my celebrities
Speaker 2: like that. I'm sorry. Sometimes I want them riding a
Speaker 2: horse in the nude and talking about how they bought
Speaker 2: a house just to gut it and move out again,
Speaker 2: which is another thing that happens in this article.
Speaker 3: Even though she has a degree in architect Okay, that's
Speaker 3: something I have to talk about.
Speaker 4: She's not thriving with her.
Speaker 2: Arquet whatever whatever we think about, and I do struggle,
Speaker 2: you know. I try it not to be judgmental, but
Speaker 2: that period of the naked Bianca yay paparazzi was very
Speaker 2: tricky to get through as a mother, as a bothering
Speaker 2: It in inverted commas is that you know, you've got
Speaker 2: a teenage daughter who notices these things, and she's like,
Speaker 2: why is that? Lady, always naked, and why is everybody
Speaker 2: always looking at her? And why is she the most
Speaker 2: google woman.
Speaker 3: In the world standing next to a fully clothed Kanye And.
Speaker 2: These are difficult questions to answer. Bianki, you did not
Speaker 2: make our lives easy there for a little while. You
Speaker 2: can't deny, though, that this is an interesting story, like
Speaker 2: a pretty ordinary and inverted Commas schoolgirl from Melbourne who's
Speaker 2: got sisters and a mom and just normal life.
Speaker 4: Ever, brother who refuses to a brother of ends up.
Speaker 4: I want him to talk. He knows what he's doing.
Speaker 2: But that is an interesting story.
Speaker 3: I mean, the thing I love the most is that
Speaker 3: she's so insistent that she didn't want to use her
Speaker 3: voice until she had something to say. And yet she
Speaker 3: says absolutely nothing in all of these words. But in
Speaker 3: the age of Epstein, where we've got widespread sex trafficking
Speaker 3: and women who have no voice while rich, powerful men
Speaker 3: use them solely as sex objects, is it radical to
Speaker 3: be naked and say nothing. That's what I'd like to
Speaker 3: ask her. And you know what, the one thing she
Speaker 3: does say, and this is on a more serious note,
Speaker 3: is she does say, I am not anti Semitic, and
Speaker 3: she's like, I knew I'd have an opportunity to say
Speaker 3: that one day and then moves on. But then in
Speaker 3: the same breath she says she's talking about how in
Speaker 3: love she is with Yay, and she says, I love
Speaker 3: him so much. We're like the same person. I'm like,
Speaker 3: this is the issue. You've become so enmeshed and work
Speaker 3: in the same business and excuse him, and you say
Speaker 3: it's been like doing CPR on him for last year.
Speaker 3: We all know he has mental health issues, and we
Speaker 3: can't possibly understand or speculate how much of that has
Speaker 3: to do with the objective hate speech that's come out
Speaker 3: of him over the years. But when you say we're
Speaker 3: like the same person, it's very difficult for us to
Speaker 3: watch her stand next to him at events and hold
Speaker 3: his hand and enable him when he is literally threatening
Speaker 3: violence to Jewish people all over the world. Like, I
Speaker 3: don't think that's actually sexist to kind of look at
Speaker 3: her and go, mate, you're working in the same business endeavors,
Speaker 3: you're in the same meetings, you're privy to your benefiting
Speaker 3: from this man's his career.
Speaker 2: I find that a bit difficult because she didn't say
Speaker 2: any of those things, like he has been. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's hard to overstate how offensive a lot of the
Speaker 2: stuff that has come out out of his mouth over
Speaker 2: the past couple of years had been. But it didn't
Speaker 2: come out of her mouth. And benefit of the doubt,
Speaker 2: it is very difficult being in a relationship with someone
Speaker 2: who is suffering from very severe mental health issues. On
Speaker 2: its face, it appears that that is what's been happening
Speaker 2: with Kanye. It doesn't excuse any of it, you know,
Speaker 2: the anti semitism, the racism, any of that stuff. It
Speaker 2: doesn't excuse it. The misogyny, it doesn't excuse it. But
Speaker 2: it wasn't her. And sometimes I think, and this is
Speaker 2: a thing we've been talking about a bit today, we
Speaker 2: do love to blame a woman, particularly a provocative woman,
Speaker 2: which there's no question that the way she dresses everything,
Speaker 2: provocative is a loaded word. But she says herself deliberately
Speaker 2: trying to provoke a reaction for a man's awful deeds,
Speaker 2: Like it wasn't Biancher Sensory who said those things.
Speaker 3: I will say I actually quite liked this she said.
Speaker 3: This year was a lot like doing CPR for months.
Speaker 3: I have the love and empathy for him to be
Speaker 3: able to do that, and I understand the world doesn't
Speaker 3: I quite liked. I was like, yeah, like you might
Speaker 3: have the patience to do that for the person you love,
Speaker 3: but I don't.
Speaker 2: This is why this is very complicated talk about in
Speaker 2: a way, because there are clearly a lot of mental
Speaker 2: health issues going on here. She also in another part
Speaker 2: of this, she talks about going into rehabit. She talks
Speaker 2: about having issues with drugs. They both definitely read and
Speaker 2: did for that manic period at least, like people with
Speaker 2: some serious issues going on, and so to sort of
Speaker 2: celebrate that is really difficult, but also to look at
Speaker 2: it through a lens of normality is also really difficult.
Speaker 2: And it's interesting how a lot of people wanted to
Speaker 2: believe that she was under his control and maybe she wasn't.
Speaker 2: She says that she wasn't, But I also don't necessarily
Speaker 2: believe that either. There are lots of you know, she
Speaker 2: certainly wouldn't be the first woman who's been in a
Speaker 2: difficult relationship who is like everything's fine, totally want to
Speaker 2: be here. He's a lovely guy like that. Whole stuff
Speaker 2: is very it's complicated territory, right, whether or not people
Speaker 2: know that they're being controlled or not. All we can
Speaker 2: do is critique this on its face, and on its face,
Speaker 2: she's like, it was an art project. You lot were
Speaker 2: all obsessed with my boobs, but I was doing an
Speaker 2: art project, is basically what she was. And that's the
Speaker 2: interesting question, right is It's like, maybe it doesn't matter
Speaker 2: at all that she was naked for a year and
Speaker 2: we all obsessed about it. But also it's a very
Speaker 2: unsatisfactory answer, isn't it just like it is art?
Speaker 3: And I got to the end of it and I went,
Speaker 3: I just had this epiphany. Biankson, sorry belongs on a
Speaker 3: season of Maths. Yes, that's where she would thrive. I
Speaker 3: think she'd make great reality television. I think i'd watch.
Speaker 3: I think she'd be mashed with someone. I think she'd
Speaker 3: have some great outfits. I think she'd have some fabulous outfits.
Speaker 3: She's risen to this level of power that's actually quite dangerous. Yeah, well,
Speaker 3: this is a quote that I think belongs on mass
Speaker 3: So it says when she was a child who would
Speaker 3: read books of factoids, so she'd have something to say
Speaker 3: about any topic that I wrote. So I think this
Speaker 3: is trying to paint her as like brain. She has
Speaker 3: a bachelor's degree and a master's degree. She's she's not idiot,
Speaker 3: so why doesn't any of this makes sense? But anyway,
Speaker 3: she says, people would bring something up and then I'd
Speaker 3: know something about that topic of information. She says, that's
Speaker 3: a fun map. She says, I'm a researcher and factual.
Speaker 3: Also great, put that in your valve that like, I
Speaker 3: would watch that. I'm a researcher and factual. Also, I
Speaker 3: think you're taking the piss and maybe this is also yeah,
Speaker 3: that probably is, I know, And just all the stuff,
Speaker 3: like even the description of what the show is in
Speaker 3: South Korea, the performance arte and it's seven and something
Speaker 3: about fame and having images projected on you.
Speaker 4: But you are in control.
Speaker 3: Apparently, it's like the Emperor's got no close. It's like
Speaker 3: when does art just You're like, hold on, nobody's making
Speaker 3: literally no little bit of sense. No, exactly right, exactly
Speaker 3: out loud as I.
Speaker 2: Hope you've had a fabulous, bad bunnyish day. We are
Speaker 2: certainly happy to be here with you through it. Thank
Speaker 2: you for filling in Klaid Stevens, thanks for having you
Speaker 2: got such a pleasure, and thank you to our amazing
Speaker 2: out loud team as always for helpings put the show together.
Speaker 2: We will be back in your ears. Well, Miya will
Speaker 2: certainly be back in your ears tomorrow. Who knows which
Speaker 2: of us she will choose to sit beside her and
Speaker 2: tomorrow's subscriber episode.
Speaker 3: I personally prefer having a longer lunch break.
Speaker 4: Don't tell her, she'll.
Speaker 2: Definitely call you in.
Speaker 4: But we'll be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 1: Bye.
Speaker 2: Mama.
Speaker 3: Mayor acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which
Speaker 3: we have recorded this podcast.