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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Mom and Mia out Loud. It's

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Speaker 2: what women are actually talking about on Monday, the night

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Speaker 2: of February. And I am Holly Waynwright.

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Speaker 3: I'm Jesse Stevens, and I'm Claire Stephens, filling in for Amelia,

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Speaker 3: who's going to be back on Wednesday, and also for

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Speaker 3: em both of whom are gallivanting around the world while

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Speaker 3: we're sitting here.

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Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever been on a show with

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Speaker 2: a double Stevens situation before, have I think this is

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Speaker 2: a whole new thing. I'm a little bit nervous.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I hope people can tell our voices apart. I'll

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Speaker 3: speak slightly deeper just for Claric. I think you have

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Speaker 3: a tone of despair at the moment.

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Speaker 4: I'll try to be more upbeat.

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Speaker 2: You have to declare every time you speak. You'd be like,

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Speaker 2: this is Jesse, this is Claire. Do not attribute my

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Speaker 2: thoughts to another anyway. Don't gang up on me. That's

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Speaker 2: all I'm saying on our agenda for to Claire, what

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Speaker 2: have you.

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Speaker 3: Got the Melinda Gates comments about the Epstein Files that

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Speaker 3: I cannot stop thinking about and Bianca Ston. Sorry, we

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Speaker 3: need to talk about the profile that was in Vanity Fair.

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Speaker 3: She is the wife of Yee, formerly known as Kanye West.

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Speaker 1: Yay, yay?

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Speaker 2: Is it? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I don't like having her.

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Speaker 2: She's a corrector, yay.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. We talked about this on Friday show. That was

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Speaker 3: actually really rude.

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Speaker 2: How you just corrected me?

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Speaker 3: Yay formerly known as Kanye West. She is finally ready

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Speaker 3: to speak. There is just one problem and.

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Speaker 2: Also dozer recipe to eats and recognizing the particular agony

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Speaker 2: of losing a pet.

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Speaker 3: But first, as we are recording this episode, the super

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Speaker 3: Bowl is occurring. It is we don't know.

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Speaker 2: We're calling it the Benito Bowl.

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Speaker 3: Friends, Okay, yes, because of our friend bad.

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Speaker 2: Money, Bad Bunny, And we're going to get into who

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Speaker 2: why in case you're not across mister Bunny all of that.

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Speaker 3: But the out louders have just let out a collective

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Speaker 3: squeal because there has been imagery of friends of the Pod,

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Speaker 3: Lewis Hamilton and Kim kardash In in the audience together

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Speaker 3: on a date there. I think I've seen three to

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Speaker 3: four seconds of footage, and I'm feeling a lot of feelings.

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Speaker 2: Jessie, it must be serious, because that is a serious

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Speaker 2: coming out date.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 2: You do not take someone to the Super Bowl with

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Speaker 2: every camera in the world unless you're like, well.

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Speaker 3: They look really happy.

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Speaker 2: We kissing.

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Speaker 3: They look I see happiness in his eyes. I see

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Speaker 3: I see joy. She's feeling herself. She's feeling Yeah, she's

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Speaker 3: feeling herself. I just think the out louders are really

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Speaker 3: mad that I didn't know he was short. I can

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Speaker 3: see when they sit next to each other that he's

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Speaker 3: not a tall man, but she's tiny. But she's tiny,

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Speaker 3: which I think is fine.

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Speaker 2: We need to move off that and not onto what's

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Speaker 2: happening on the field with the football, because let's be honest,

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Speaker 2: that's not our specialty. It's not even Australian football. We

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Speaker 2: don't understand it, not even English football. I don't even know.

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Speaker 2: But what we do care about is Benita, mister bad bunny.

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Speaker 2: It is Super Bowl today, it's Super Bowl Sunday, but

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Speaker 2: it's Monday. But you know what I mean, right, And

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Speaker 2: by the time you're listening to this, it's all happened already.

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Speaker 2: And I couldn't tell you who was playing in it.

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Speaker 2: I don't know because Travis Kelsey wasn't involved, So therefore

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Speaker 2: my pop culture references did not coincide. But I need

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Speaker 2: to give you a very quick introduction to a man

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Speaker 2: whose face and potentially other body parts you have seen

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Speaker 2: everywhere today, Bad Bunny.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I know who he is, to be clear, but

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Speaker 3: my mum would be asking who and what is a

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Speaker 3: bad Yes, exactly.

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Speaker 2: So if you woke up this morning and you were like,

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Speaker 2: but all Bunny's bad in this case, yes, Bunny is

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Speaker 2: very bad in the old fashioned nineteen eighties meaning of

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Speaker 2: the word bad meaning good. He's really bad as in good.

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Speaker 3: He's also hot, which isn't relevant.

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Speaker 2: Really hot, so it is also if you're not fully

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Speaker 2: across Bad Bunny, whose real name, by the way, is

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Speaker 2: Benito Antonio Martinez Orcasio. He is the most streamed artist

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Speaker 2: in the world. Last year he had more streams than

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Speaker 2: anyone else, Yes, including Taylor Swift. He is huge.

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Speaker 3: I've gotta not laugh because of the video.

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Speaker 2: We'll get to that later. Cheat sheets. Things you need

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Speaker 2: to know about Bad Bunny is that he's from Puerto Rico.

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Speaker 2: He grew up in a small town there. Puerto Rico

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Speaker 2: is in the Caribbean. It's a collection of Irelands. It's

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Speaker 2: an American territory, so it's not like part of America,

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Speaker 2: but it's governed by America and its citizens are American citizens,

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Speaker 2: so he is an American citizen, which is a bit

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Speaker 2: hawcs for the Mega people who keep being like, why

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Speaker 2: was a foreigner headlining the super Bowl? Ah?

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Speaker 4: Yes, bad argument, not a.

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Speaker 2: Foreigner, but also didn't seem to mind when Coldplay were

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Speaker 2: doing it. But anyway, other famous Puerto Ricans for context, j.

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Speaker 3: Loo, she's done the super Bowl.

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Speaker 2: She has done the Super Bowl. She with her friendship

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Speaker 2: Ricky Martin. He might have done the super Bowl and

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Speaker 2: they claim him they do. Manuel Miranda Benicio del Toro AOC.

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Speaker 2: Lots of people, very talented people be for Puerto Rico.

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Speaker 2: So mister Bunny as we shall call him, sings in

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Speaker 2: Spanish only. Now. Lots of crossover Latin stars over the

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Speaker 2: years who've become big deals in America in the English

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Speaker 2: speaking world have also released songs in English. He has not,

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Speaker 2: He says he never will. He says he doesn't care

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Speaker 2: if you understand his songs or not if you don't

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Speaker 2: speak Spanish. This is how he communicates his music and

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Speaker 2: he does it very very well. That's hot. It's really

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Speaker 2: like everything about that bunny is very hot. Traditionally, the

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Speaker 2: music he makes might be called reggaeton, that's what it

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Speaker 2: was called, this kind of breakthrough mix of like Jamaican

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Speaker 2: dancehall and hip hop and Latin Caribbean music. And when

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Speaker 2: he became a really big deal, he moved to America.

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Speaker 2: He moved to the Hollywood Hills and he started dating

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Speaker 2: Kendall Jenna. That's where many of us might have bumped

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Speaker 2: into him. Culturally.

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Speaker 3: For me, that just ran into like a whole lot

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Speaker 3: of names of people who have dated Kardashians and Jenna's

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Speaker 3: that I can't differentiate. So I'm glad you're kind of

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Speaker 3: spelling this out.

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Speaker 2: They didn't go out for all that long, by the way.

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Speaker 2: And apparently the way the story goes is that after

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Speaker 2: that kind of period, like that was his kind of

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Speaker 2: Hollywood period, right, and then he moved back to Puerto Rico.

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Speaker 2: He made the album that is just when the Grammy

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Speaker 2: of the Album of the Year for which is called

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Speaker 2: DeBie Tara Masfhoto, which loosely translates as I should have

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Speaker 2: taken more photos And it's kind of like a breakup album.

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Speaker 2: That's also about home. So maybe it could be about Kendallwi.

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Speaker 2: Probably not, And it's very much about like I should

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Speaker 2: have embraced the moment more. And it's sort of mashed

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Speaker 2: in with all these traditional rooms and it has been massive.

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Speaker 3: And the irony is like I hear all of this,

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Speaker 3: and it's like, how has an artist who spans continents

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Speaker 3: and like is just widely popular and beloved, How is

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Speaker 3: he at the center of a culture war?

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Speaker 2: Well, here we go, just in case you haven't heard

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Speaker 2: Bad Money, I'm going to play you a tiny bit

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Speaker 2: of his most famous song at the moment, and it's

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Speaker 2: called d T MF. You know it. Here's a little

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Speaker 2: tiny bit of it. Okay, we got it. We're on board.

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Speaker 2: The reason he's ended up in the middle of a

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Speaker 2: culture is because America, for a start, right over the

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Speaker 2: last few years, the person who organizes who performs at

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Speaker 2: the super Bowl halftime it's jay Z. Jay Z's Rock

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Speaker 2: Nation runs the super Bowl halftime show. They have done

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Speaker 2: that since the first one they did was j Loo Shakira.

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Speaker 2: Then they've done Usher, they did that amazing one with

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Speaker 2: all the West Coast hip hop with Dr Dre, and

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Speaker 2: they did Kendrick and this year Bad Bunny, and it's

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Speaker 2: largely seen as a bit of a nod to let

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Speaker 2: the NFL want to remain relevant cool reflect the multicultural

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Speaker 2: nature of their fans because of America multicultural nation, lots

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Speaker 2: of different people play and watch football. But also it

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Speaker 2: means that very often there's a little bit of friction,

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Speaker 2: like a little bit of like, we're gonna like mess

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Speaker 2: things up a bit here. We're not just gonna give

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Speaker 2: you country stars and pop stars every time. So this

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Speaker 2: year it's landed in a very feebro moment because Bad

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Speaker 2: Bunny is not a particularly political person, but in the

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Speaker 2: last couple of years he has been quite a critic

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Speaker 2: of Trump, and he is really supportive of Puerto Ricans,

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Speaker 2: and he's really against Ice and all the anti immigration rhetoric.

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Speaker 3: Well even the politics of speaking Spanish in America right

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Speaker 3: now with the Ice raids. Like whether or not he

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Speaker 3: wanted to be political is kind of enforced exactly.

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Speaker 2: So when he became the biggest person in the world

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Speaker 2: last year, he could have gone, everyone says, on a

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Speaker 2: massive stadium tour like Tata and made hundreds of millions,

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Speaker 2: but he went, no, you know what I'm gonna do

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna build a place in Puerto Rico, do a

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Speaker 2: ten week residency and if you want to come see me,

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Speaker 2: you come to Puerto Rico, put money into the economy

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Speaker 2: here and everybody did. All the famous people went. You've

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Speaker 2: all seen John Hamm going ham as it were at

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Speaker 2: the concerts.

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Speaker 3: Speaking of John ham you just because you showed me

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Speaker 3: just a lovely video for my Monday morning morning, can

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Speaker 3: you just talk to me about the relevance of bad

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Speaker 3: bunnies thrusting.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to be a creep. I don't want

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Speaker 2: to objectify mister bunny. I don't want to suggest anything

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Speaker 2: about anything except that if you watch some of the

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Speaker 2: videos from that residency where he's gyrating, where he is

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Speaker 2: gyrating clearly perhaps unrestrained by under Okay, it's pretty exciting.

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Speaker 4: Do you think that upsets the MAGA people.

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Speaker 2: I think they don't like that. They don't like the spanishness,

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Speaker 2: they don't like the fact that. So for example, when

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Speaker 2: he won his big award at the Grammys last week,

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Speaker 2: he did speak out against ice. He also said, you know,

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Speaker 2: we are not He was talking about Puerto Ricans, obviously,

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Speaker 2: and he was like, we're not savage. We're not animals,

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Speaker 2: we're not aliens. We are humans and we are Americans.

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Speaker 2: That would not necessarily seem like an outrageous thing to say,

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Speaker 2: but where it lands now anyway, So lots of pressure

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Speaker 2: on mister Bunny for the halftime show. Is he going

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Speaker 2: to be political? Is he going to be polytical? You

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Speaker 2: would know that by now because it will have happened.

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Speaker 3: But unfortunately for bad Bunny, there is a competitor. There's

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Speaker 3: another super Bowl happening, and who is headlining that?

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Speaker 2: So Turning Point USA, which is the charity run by

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Speaker 2: Erica Kirk after the widow of Charlie Kirk, they decided

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Speaker 2: to put on at the same time what they are

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Speaker 2: calling an alternative all American halftime show with a couple

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Speaker 2: of country singers and Kid Rock as headliner.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to watch that one, rather watch they.

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Speaker 2: There will be too many underpans. Do we feel that

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Speaker 2: we know now who Benito is? Oh?

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Speaker 3: Yes, and I'm very excited. I'm very excited to watch

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Speaker 3: this halftime show as soon as we're out of this studio. Same,

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Speaker 3: I am desperate to talk about Melinda Gates. So it's

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Speaker 3: been just over a week since the release of millions

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Speaker 3: of files relating to late convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein

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Speaker 3: and his correspondents with some of the world's most powerful men.

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Speaker 3: We talked about ailon Musk on last Monday show. The

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Speaker 3: sheer volume of the files is overwhelming and sickening, but

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Speaker 3: among them is a draft email written by Epstein claiming

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Speaker 3: that tech billionaire Bill Gates contracted a sexually transmitted disease

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Speaker 3: after sleeping with Russian girls. That's how he's written it,

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Speaker 3: and had asked Epstein to get him antibiotics to secretly

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Speaker 3: give to his then wife. Days after the files were released,

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Speaker 3: Bill Gates's ex wife, Melinda Gates, was interviewed on MPR's

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Speaker 3: wild Card podcast, and here's a bit of what she said.

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Speaker 1: For me, it's personally hard whenever those details come up,

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Speaker 1: right because brings back memories of some very very painful

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Speaker 1: times in my marriage. But I have moved on from that.

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Speaker 1: I purposely pushed it away and I moved on.

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Speaker 2: I'm in a really.

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Speaker 1: Unexpected, beautiful place in my life. So whatever questions remain

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Speaker 1: there of what I don't can't even begin to know

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Speaker 1: all of it. Those questions are for those people and

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Speaker 1: from even my ex husband. They need to answer to

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Speaker 1: those things, not me well, and I am so happy

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Speaker 1: to be away from all the muck that it was there.

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Speaker 3: Later in the week, Bill Gates did answer to the allegations.

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Speaker 3: He said the claims in the email were false and

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Speaker 3: he didn't know what Epstein was thinking there. But Melinda

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Speaker 3: Gates publicly weighing in begs the question what do we

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Speaker 3: owe an X and are we culpable for their sins?

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Speaker 2: Holly, I think Melinda Gates is in a really tricky

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Speaker 2: position here, and I think she's carrying herself with a

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Speaker 2: lot of class. So I interviewed flex I introd I

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Speaker 2: Introdude that was like that too. She was really impressed

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Speaker 2: with that. I interviewed Melinda French Gates last year when

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Speaker 2: her book came out the next day, which is all

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Speaker 2: about rebuilding after trauma or after big changes and transitions, right,

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Speaker 2: And in that book she speaks kind and obviously I

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Speaker 2: read the book, she speaks kind of obliquely about the

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Speaker 2: fact that after her and Bill were together for a

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Speaker 2: really long time, they had three kids, they've built this

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Speaker 2: huge foundation together that she was running and very much

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Speaker 2: part of. She's kind of clear about the fact there

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Speaker 2: was just stuff going on that she could no longer ignore. Like,

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Speaker 2: reading between the lines, you kind of got the impression

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Speaker 2: that she tolerated a certain amount of things. That's not

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Speaker 2: what she says, but that's kind of the impression you get.

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Speaker 3: He admitted to an affair, Yes.

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Speaker 2: He admitted to an affair, and then it became untenable

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Speaker 2: for her, is the vibe that you get. And as

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Speaker 2: this muck literal muck is coming out, I think we're

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Speaker 2: beginning to get a picture of what that might have

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Speaker 2: been like. I think it's really hard because she is,

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Speaker 2: without doubt, a deeply principled, serious person. She comes across

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Speaker 2: that way. She's like that when you talk to her.

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Speaker 2: She's very head girl energy. She was a computer science major.

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Speaker 2: She's so brainy. She obviously believed so deeply in everything

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Speaker 2: they'd built together, and she doesn't want to trash the

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Speaker 2: father of her kids. But on the other hand, this

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Speaker 2: stuff coming out is so horrendous. I think it puts

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Speaker 2: the women in these men's lives in a really difficult position.

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Speaker 3: She didn't have to acknowledge it, and I don't think

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Speaker 3: that answering to your ex's potential misdeeds or allegations against

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Speaker 3: them is on you to answer. So the fact she

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Speaker 3: did is clearly like she was comfortable making a statement.

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Speaker 3: But I keep thinking. There was a brilliant column by

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Speaker 3: Julia Baird published by the ABS over the weekend about

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Speaker 3: how these are meant to be, like the names that

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Speaker 3: come up in this, from Deepak ch Opra to Nome

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Speaker 3: Chompsky to Bill Gates, these are meant to be the

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Speaker 3: brightest minds that the planet has potentially ever seen. Right,

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Speaker 3: and yet these men had allegedly no idea that Jeffrey Epstein,

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Speaker 3: who is at this stage been accused of sex trafficking assault,

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Speaker 3: basically victimizing more than one thousand women. The fact that

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Speaker 3: none of those men have willfully come forward and said,

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Speaker 3: you know what, I did smell that something was off.

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Speaker 3: They've all gone what, which is interesting given that so

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Speaker 3: many women, including Melinda Gates, have come out and said

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Speaker 3: I felt it, I saw it. So Melinda Gates in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty two told Gail King that she'd met with

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Speaker 3: Epstein one time because she wanted to see what kind

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Speaker 3: of man he was, and she said, I regretted it

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Speaker 3: the second I walked in the door. He was a Borrn.

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Speaker 3: He was evil personified. I had nightmares about it afterwards.

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Speaker 3: How is it that the dozens and dozens potentially hundreds

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Speaker 3: of men that come up in the files never say

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Speaker 3: anything like that. This isn't just like you know, normal guys.

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Speaker 3: They're meant to be real, like business entrepreneurs and like

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Speaker 3: they read people really well and they're running the world,

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Speaker 3: and yet they can't tell when they're sitting across from

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Speaker 3: a sexual predator. There was no critical thinking. And I

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Speaker 3: mean the important thing is that he was convicted by

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Speaker 3: the time. Yeah, these a lot of the more acknowledging

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Speaker 3: that in their correspondence.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: The person that I'm obsessed with in this situation as

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Speaker 3: well is award winning writer and editor in chief Tina Brown,

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Speaker 3: who wrote on her sub stack that when she was

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Speaker 3: editor of The Daily Beast in twenty ten, she got

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Speaker 3: a call from a pr person asking her to come

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Speaker 3: to dinner with then Prince Andrew. It was hosted by

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Speaker 3: Epstein and Woody Allen would also be attending. Her response

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Speaker 3: is iconic. She said, what the F is this?

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Speaker 4: Peggy?

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Speaker 3: The pedophiles ball? And I just think, why were men

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Speaker 3: not reacting like that?

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Speaker 2: The most cynical read answer to that question because they

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Speaker 2: don't care that, you know that what was clearly being

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Speaker 2: built by epsy. And we talked about this a bit

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Speaker 2: last week. Last Monday, he was obviously scratching the backs

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Speaker 2: of enough powerful people and an important enough connector fundraiser,

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Speaker 2: benefactor that his peccadillos as they saw them, like oh

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Speaker 2: maybe he's I mean, like, this is a generous read.

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Speaker 2: Let me just put that out there, A very generous

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Speaker 2: read of like, oh maybe he's a bit and wouldn't

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Speaker 2: leave your daughter with him kind of thing was not

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Speaker 2: important enough to them in the scheme of things for

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Speaker 2: them to feel that they had to distance themselves, and that, unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: is a pattern you see played out a lot in

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Speaker 2: these kind of circles where it's like, so he's not

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Speaker 2: great with women, whatever that might mean, and that could

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Speaker 2: mean anything from maybe just not a good boyfriend to

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Speaker 2: downright abusive. But hey, you know he's important, he'll get

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Speaker 2: things done, he's a connector, you know, he's an important guy.

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Speaker 2: I feel for the wives, except for the ones who

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Speaker 2: seemed clearly complicit, like perhaps Sarah Ferguson, former Duchess of York,

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Speaker 2: whose emails jest that she was very close to Epstein

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Speaker 2: and she relied on him for lots of things.

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Speaker 3: Which is at odds with what she said publicly.

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Speaker 2: And also I feel for the adult daughters of these men,

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Speaker 2: I really do, because I think there's a particular betrayal,

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Speaker 2: and that includes obviously princesses Eugenie Beatrice who seemed to

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Speaker 2: be having quite different reactions to what's going on with

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Speaker 2: their dad, but to Bill Gates's kids too. I think

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Speaker 2: there's a particular betrayal that young women feel understanding that

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Speaker 2: their dads could or did or do treat other young

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Speaker 2: women in at best a dismissive way and at worst

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Speaker 2: a potentially abusive way. I think that's a really difficult

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Speaker 2: head scramble, and I just do have a lot of

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Speaker 2: empathy for those young women as well as obviously more

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Speaker 2: and most empathy always to the victims who keep being

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Speaker 2: thrown under the bus, named rolled out to give evidence

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Speaker 2: in situations.

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Speaker 3: Well well, other names are redacted. And Melinda Gates actually

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Speaker 3: in that statement, she goes on to say when she's

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Speaker 3: talking in the podcast, and I'm pretty sure that every

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Speaker 3: time she's made just talked about the victims and the

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Speaker 3: men who have come out to clear their names and go.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know.

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Speaker 4: I didn't even get that email. I was manipulated.

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Speaker 3: Most men never ever acknowledge that there even were victims.

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Speaker 3: It's more about clearing their names. Their own name. And

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Speaker 3: as you were saying, Jesse, about these are meant to

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Speaker 3: be intelligent, successful, high functioning men. Bill Gates's response didn't

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Speaker 3: even make sense, like that the email was false. I

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Speaker 3: don't know why Epstein did that. Can you give some

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Speaker 3: kind of insight into why you were close with this person?

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Speaker 3: And this is why this trial feels like, I said,

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Speaker 3: such a standstill, because it's like someone here knows something.

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Speaker 3: Come on, who saw andrew on all fours? Who saw

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Speaker 3: like something at a party that you walked in? And

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Speaker 3: a few people have come out and said, I saw

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Speaker 3: something at a party that was a little bit weird.

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Speaker 3: But it's like they're holding hands and deciding not to speak,

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Speaker 3: which some people have come out and said, it's almost

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Speaker 3: like this QAnon thing that was coming out years ago

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Speaker 3: with the tinfoil hats is coming true. The idea that

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Speaker 3: there's some kind of elite pedophile ring running the world.

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Speaker 3: There seems to be some credibility to that, and at

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Speaker 3: what point are they going to drop each other's hands

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Speaker 3: and start telling on each.

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Speaker 2: Other on the fact of women with terrible exes?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: And I know that's a very broad spectrum, but this

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Speaker 2: rumor about the STI is so upsetting and so awful

390
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Speaker 2: and humiliating, exactly humiliating. And if that was you, you would

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Speaker 2: hate for that to be out there. But the thing

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Speaker 2: that is really important that she has said, and I

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Speaker 2: think is so important that we all get our heads

394
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Speaker 2: around again and again and again. The shame is not hers.

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Speaker 2: The shame is his. If that story is true. Maybe

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Speaker 2: it is, maybe it isn't. The shame is not hers.

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Speaker 2: The humiliation shouldn't be hers. It's his entirely, And there's

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Speaker 2: no reason for her to hang ahead or go silent

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Speaker 2: or any of those things. I think we've just got

400
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Speaker 2: to keep pushing that shame back that everybody always wants

401
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Speaker 2: to put on women, Like how embarrassing for you? That's

402
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Speaker 2: awful for you, poor you. It's like what about that guy?

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Speaker 2: You know? So I have a lot of respect for

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Speaker 2: the fact that she addressed it. Even though she did

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Speaker 2: so in the most careful, liber and emotional terms that

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Speaker 2: she could, her voice was heard.

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Speaker 3: And the fact that she said the questions are for

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Speaker 3: those men. That was an understated thing to say, but

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Speaker 3: there are still so many men named in there that

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Speaker 3: have not even acknowledged it, or who have previously said

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Speaker 3: things that are now completely proved to not be true

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Speaker 3: and don't seem to need to confront that publicly.

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Speaker 4: I agree.

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Speaker 3: I think we've had this rhetoric for the last few

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Speaker 3: years about believe women, believe women, and it's become almost mocked.

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Speaker 3: And then you look at this and you go, there

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Speaker 3: are so many women who have come forward. Epstein has

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Speaker 3: been found to have been a convicted sex offender in Call,

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Speaker 3: and yet all of those women were not believed until

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Speaker 3: these documents came out. And even still, I don't think

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Speaker 3: we're getting the reckoning that I would like to see.

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Speaker 2: After the break recipes and eats Dozer and how the

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Speaker 2: loss of a pet really really matters.

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Speaker 5: It's mea out louders and I'm back in your ears

425
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Speaker 5: twice a week on Tuesdays and Thursdays exclusively for Muma

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Speaker 5: Miya subscribers, and this week I want to talk about

427
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Speaker 5: some weird shit.

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Speaker 2: First of all, the weird shit that.

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Speaker 5: Comes with the way different generations parent who is on

430
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Speaker 5: top of the leaderboard? Is it x's, is it boomers

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Speaker 5: or is it millennials? Holly Jesse and I have such

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Speaker 5: an interesting chat about that, and you'll be shocked to

433
00:22:54,634 --> 00:22:58,354
Speaker 5: hear we don't agree. And then I'm desperate to talk

434
00:22:58,394 --> 00:23:01,994
Speaker 5: to you about the deeply weird twin shit that's going

435
00:23:02,034 --> 00:23:05,954
Speaker 5: on around here, so weird, and we have a bit

436
00:23:05,994 --> 00:23:09,154
Speaker 5: of a surprise that's coming on Thursday, if I can

437
00:23:09,194 --> 00:23:11,634
Speaker 5: wait that long. So, if you're not already a subscriber,

438
00:23:12,074 --> 00:23:14,474
Speaker 5: follow the link in the show notes to get us

439
00:23:14,514 --> 00:23:16,754
Speaker 5: in your ears five days a week and you will

440
00:23:16,794 --> 00:23:19,234
Speaker 5: be the first to hear some great gossip.

441
00:23:20,794 --> 00:23:24,634
Speaker 2: A very famous Australian dog has died, and we need

442
00:23:24,674 --> 00:23:27,914
Speaker 2: to talk about the very specific grief of losing a pet.

443
00:23:28,714 --> 00:23:31,474
Speaker 2: If you've ever clicked on a recipe to eats recipe

444
00:23:31,554 --> 00:23:35,513
Speaker 2: or bought one of Nagi Mahashi's million selling cookbooks, you

445
00:23:35,634 --> 00:23:39,434
Speaker 2: know who Dosa is because Doza is all over recipe.

446
00:23:39,514 --> 00:23:43,114
Speaker 2: He eats, his face is on the cookbooks on the website.

447
00:23:43,234 --> 00:23:46,194
Speaker 2: He's always at any of her public events. He's been

448
00:23:46,194 --> 00:23:48,114
Speaker 2: on play School, he's been on the cover of the

449
00:23:48,114 --> 00:23:50,553
Speaker 2: Big Issue. Because Nagi has a big charitable arm with

450
00:23:50,634 --> 00:23:53,714
Speaker 2: recipes in the kitchen. He's been you know, in a

451
00:23:53,834 --> 00:23:58,754
Speaker 2: children's book. He's a very famous dog. Last week, Nagi

452
00:23:58,874 --> 00:24:01,914
Speaker 2: shared that he was really, really unwell, that he'd entered

453
00:24:01,994 --> 00:24:04,994
Speaker 2: veterinary I see you on January the twenty second with

454
00:24:05,074 --> 00:24:09,154
Speaker 2: a double lung infection. She posted at the time that

455
00:24:09,194 --> 00:24:11,554
Speaker 2: she was going to take a step back from work

456
00:24:11,594 --> 00:24:13,474
Speaker 2: for a little while to be with him. She said,

457
00:24:13,474 --> 00:24:15,514
Speaker 2: I've cried a thousand tears and there's a million more

458
00:24:15,554 --> 00:24:19,114
Speaker 2: to come. He died last Thursday, February the fifth, and

459
00:24:19,194 --> 00:24:22,754
Speaker 2: she announced it on her socials yesterday. The post, which

460
00:24:22,794 --> 00:24:26,154
Speaker 2: was a beautiful video of Doza, just said, he didn't

461
00:24:26,154 --> 00:24:30,354
Speaker 2: make it. My heart is shattered. Look, the loss of

462
00:24:30,354 --> 00:24:33,114
Speaker 2: a pet is extremely common grief. Everyone around this table

463
00:24:33,154 --> 00:24:35,274
Speaker 2: has experienced it, and I'm sure most of the out

464
00:24:35,314 --> 00:24:39,074
Speaker 2: louders listening to this have Why is it a grief

465
00:24:39,114 --> 00:24:41,994
Speaker 2: that we downplay a bit? And do we agree with

466
00:24:42,034 --> 00:24:44,554
Speaker 2: this article that I read on the ABC last week

467
00:24:44,594 --> 00:24:49,234
Speaker 2: that said recipe Tineat's Nagi Mahashi is normalizing taking time

468
00:24:49,274 --> 00:24:52,513
Speaker 2: off for pets. Here's why that matters in it. A

469
00:24:52,514 --> 00:24:55,474
Speaker 2: psychologist called Amanda Ferguson was quoted as saying, if people

470
00:24:55,514 --> 00:24:57,714
Speaker 2: don't take the time they need to grieve a sick

471
00:24:57,794 --> 00:25:00,434
Speaker 2: or dying pet, it can be detrimental to their mental

472
00:25:00,434 --> 00:25:03,274
Speaker 2: health and end up with a problem called rested grief

473
00:25:03,354 --> 00:25:07,074
Speaker 2: or adjustment disorder. She said that sensitive workplace leaders record

474
00:25:07,194 --> 00:25:09,074
Speaker 2: as the need for people to take time off with

475
00:25:09,154 --> 00:25:11,914
Speaker 2: their pets to grieve. What do we think?

476
00:25:12,754 --> 00:25:16,794
Speaker 3: I would say, firstly, just on that kind of insight

477
00:25:16,994 --> 00:25:20,954
Speaker 3: from a psychologist, that it's important to acknowledge that not

478
00:25:21,034 --> 00:25:24,914
Speaker 3: everybody grieves the same way, and sometimes distraction can be

479
00:25:24,954 --> 00:25:27,554
Speaker 3: really good, and being around people can be really good

480
00:25:27,634 --> 00:25:31,314
Speaker 3: rather than being on your own. But in terms of Nagi,

481
00:25:31,594 --> 00:25:35,434
Speaker 3: that video, just I watched it and just you can't

482
00:25:35,474 --> 00:25:36,634
Speaker 3: watch it without crying.

483
00:25:36,794 --> 00:25:37,553
Speaker 4: Just give it a go.

484
00:25:37,714 --> 00:25:40,994
Speaker 3: But she wrote in it, thank you Doza for the

485
00:25:40,994 --> 00:25:44,474
Speaker 3: best years of my life. And I thought that was

486
00:25:44,954 --> 00:25:50,194
Speaker 3: actually a really profound statement, because when we grieve a pet,

487
00:25:50,434 --> 00:25:54,794
Speaker 3: it's often not just the pet that we're grieving. I

488
00:25:54,834 --> 00:25:59,194
Speaker 3: lost my fourteen year old, beautiful gentleman Caesar in April

489
00:25:59,274 --> 00:26:03,394
Speaker 3: last year, and you are grieving that dog and the

490
00:26:03,394 --> 00:26:06,793
Speaker 3: familiar sound of their footsteps in your house and the

491
00:26:06,834 --> 00:26:12,274
Speaker 3: snort and all of that, But you're also grieving the

492
00:26:12,314 --> 00:26:16,954
Speaker 3: fact that this has been a fixture of your life

493
00:26:17,114 --> 00:26:22,594
Speaker 3: for a period of time, and that they represent the

494
00:26:22,634 --> 00:26:27,914
Speaker 3: inevitability of everything ending. And it can be about how

495
00:26:28,034 --> 00:26:31,434
Speaker 3: time just keeps speeding up and all of us are

496
00:26:31,434 --> 00:26:34,514
Speaker 3: moving closer and closer in the direction of facing our

497
00:26:34,554 --> 00:26:39,234
Speaker 3: own mortality. With Nagi, I imagine just from the information

498
00:26:39,314 --> 00:26:41,354
Speaker 3: I've seen, that she was in a similar position to

499
00:26:41,394 --> 00:26:45,234
Speaker 3: what we were in that your dog is really, really

500
00:26:45,314 --> 00:26:45,994
Speaker 3: really unwell.

501
00:26:46,154 --> 00:26:49,074
Speaker 2: Yeah, he'd been unwell the year before, and yes, early

502
00:26:49,114 --> 00:26:51,474
Speaker 2: in the year been hospitalized, I think too, Yes.

503
00:26:51,754 --> 00:26:54,273
Speaker 3: And the hard thing with pets is that very often

504
00:26:54,994 --> 00:26:56,954
Speaker 3: the person who loves the most has to make the

505
00:26:57,034 --> 00:26:59,874
Speaker 3: call at some point, and there's a lot of guilt

506
00:27:00,314 --> 00:27:03,274
Speaker 3: and weird emotion wrapped up in that. I remember thinking

507
00:27:03,314 --> 00:27:07,513
Speaker 3: with Caesar, Caesar outlived his life expectancy by eighteen months,

508
00:27:07,554 --> 00:27:10,994
Speaker 3: and still I felt like a monster having to make

509
00:27:11,034 --> 00:27:14,954
Speaker 3: the decision. And there's something so confronting about the fact

510
00:27:14,994 --> 00:27:17,114
Speaker 3: that they can't tell you when they're ready, or if

511
00:27:17,154 --> 00:27:20,033
Speaker 3: they're going to have a second wind or anything like that.

512
00:27:20,074 --> 00:27:22,033
Speaker 2: I Caesar was given a period of time that he

513
00:27:22,114 --> 00:27:22,954
Speaker 2: was expected to live.

514
00:27:23,034 --> 00:27:26,154
Speaker 3: Wasn't he any Yeah, defied he defied it. And in

515
00:27:26,194 --> 00:27:29,034
Speaker 3: some ways the death of an animal can be more

516
00:27:29,274 --> 00:27:31,994
Speaker 3: dignified than the death of a human in the way

517
00:27:32,034 --> 00:27:35,313
Speaker 3: that you euthanize, and it can be really peaceful and stuff.

518
00:27:35,554 --> 00:27:40,834
Speaker 3: And in other ways, there's no ritual, there's no marker

519
00:27:41,074 --> 00:27:43,794
Speaker 3: of grief in the same way there is for a human.

520
00:27:43,834 --> 00:27:45,634
Speaker 3: People don't all wear black and turn up to a

521
00:27:45,674 --> 00:27:49,074
Speaker 3: funeral and say eulogies, right, that would seem ridiculous. And

522
00:27:49,114 --> 00:27:52,594
Speaker 3: there is this kind of cultural snootiness, probably because when

523
00:27:52,594 --> 00:27:56,674
Speaker 3: your grandfather dies, there aren't people who go, no, I

524
00:27:56,714 --> 00:28:00,434
Speaker 3: don't like grandfathers. I've never been a grandfather person. They

525
00:28:00,474 --> 00:28:03,074
Speaker 3: kind of annoy me and I find them yappy. Point.

526
00:28:03,234 --> 00:28:06,314
Speaker 3: But with dogs and with cats and with any pet

527
00:28:06,354 --> 00:28:08,033
Speaker 3: that's in a family, kind of either get it or

528
00:28:08,034 --> 00:28:10,914
Speaker 3: you don't. So there's a cultural snootiness. But then in

529
00:28:10,954 --> 00:28:13,954
Speaker 3: the same way, I was so heartened to read all

530
00:28:14,034 --> 00:28:17,833
Speaker 3: the comments. There were tens of thousands of comments of

531
00:28:17,874 --> 00:28:20,234
Speaker 3: people who just got it that this is like a

532
00:28:20,274 --> 00:28:25,273
Speaker 3: member of your family, and they represent so many seasons

533
00:28:25,474 --> 00:28:29,674
Speaker 3: and moments of our family. Dog who we got kind

534
00:28:29,714 --> 00:28:33,513
Speaker 3: of just as I became a teenager, and when Ted died,

535
00:28:34,314 --> 00:28:37,394
Speaker 3: it was like I was mourning that period and all

536
00:28:37,394 --> 00:28:40,554
Speaker 3: the times, whether it was heartbreak or whether it was

537
00:28:40,594 --> 00:28:44,674
Speaker 3: getting home really late at night, or any season I

538
00:28:44,794 --> 00:28:48,834
Speaker 3: was in, he was there and he was there, sitting

539
00:28:48,874 --> 00:28:52,954
Speaker 3: there kind of keeping me company. And there's just this

540
00:28:53,034 --> 00:28:55,714
Speaker 3: simplicity to the relationship with a dog that there isn't

541
00:28:55,754 --> 00:28:58,794
Speaker 3: with humans that I find so beautiful.

542
00:28:58,954 --> 00:29:01,154
Speaker 2: I have a theory that a dog, in particular, if

543
00:29:01,154 --> 00:29:03,674
Speaker 2: you're a dog person, is like a place you put

544
00:29:03,674 --> 00:29:06,914
Speaker 2: your feelings. Like a dog allows you to be silly

545
00:29:07,194 --> 00:29:09,354
Speaker 2: with them, you know, when you would never be silly

546
00:29:09,394 --> 00:29:11,434
Speaker 2: in front of anybody else, And they allow you to

547
00:29:11,474 --> 00:29:13,154
Speaker 2: cuddle them, as you say, when they are sad, and

548
00:29:13,314 --> 00:29:15,514
Speaker 2: run around with them, and they offer you all these

549
00:29:15,634 --> 00:29:18,674
Speaker 2: wonderful things. But I also think they are place to

550
00:29:18,714 --> 00:29:22,594
Speaker 2: put When people think that grief for a lost pet

551
00:29:22,834 --> 00:29:27,314
Speaker 2: is outsized, I think that they're often not considering all

552
00:29:27,314 --> 00:29:29,914
Speaker 2: the things you've said about what they represent. But also,

553
00:29:30,514 --> 00:29:33,154
Speaker 2: I don't know, because of that simplicity of that relationship,

554
00:29:33,154 --> 00:29:34,994
Speaker 2: but it allows you to express a lot of things

555
00:29:35,034 --> 00:29:36,994
Speaker 2: that you would find difficult to do in a more

556
00:29:37,034 --> 00:29:40,394
Speaker 2: complex relationship. When we lost our beautiful dog Elvy, And

557
00:29:40,714 --> 00:29:42,114
Speaker 2: there'll be people listening to this who are like, I

558
00:29:42,114 --> 00:29:44,194
Speaker 2: can't even listen to this because it's so upsetting, Like

559
00:29:44,234 --> 00:29:47,074
Speaker 2: people get very upset, and rightly so. But when we

560
00:29:47,114 --> 00:29:49,354
Speaker 2: lost our beautiful dog, Elvy, it was a surprise. It

561
00:29:49,434 --> 00:29:53,074
Speaker 2: wasn't a long illness, and we were all really shocked

562
00:29:53,074 --> 00:29:55,714
Speaker 2: by how much it messed with us, not least Brent, right,

563
00:29:55,794 --> 00:29:58,594
Speaker 2: he was absolutely devastated. And I remember at the time

564
00:29:58,594 --> 00:30:00,994
Speaker 2: I got a message from someone I didn't know, an

565
00:30:01,034 --> 00:30:04,714
Speaker 2: out louder probably, who said, my husband lost his brother

566
00:30:04,914 --> 00:30:07,634
Speaker 2: and he didn't cry, but when he lost the family dog,

567
00:30:08,074 --> 00:30:11,754
Speaker 2: he fell to pieces. That doesn't mean that he loved

568
00:30:11,754 --> 00:30:14,274
Speaker 2: the dog more than he loved his brother. It means

569
00:30:14,314 --> 00:30:17,474
Speaker 2: that you can put your feelings in this simple relationship

570
00:30:17,474 --> 00:30:19,954
Speaker 2: in a way that you can't in a more complex one.

571
00:30:20,474 --> 00:30:23,674
Speaker 2: That it kind of takes you by surprise how much

572
00:30:24,554 --> 00:30:27,514
Speaker 2: you have kind of invested in that. And also to

573
00:30:27,594 --> 00:30:31,594
Speaker 2: your earlier point, Claire, I think it's such a tangible loss,

574
00:30:31,634 --> 00:30:34,274
Speaker 2: particularly if you live alone. My neighbor's just recently lost

575
00:30:34,274 --> 00:30:36,194
Speaker 2: her dog, and she's a widow who lives alone. But

576
00:30:36,514 --> 00:30:39,754
Speaker 2: it's such a tangible loss that might not actually be

577
00:30:40,234 --> 00:30:42,634
Speaker 2: real in other situations have lost someone you see every

578
00:30:42,714 --> 00:30:44,794
Speaker 2: day who lives in your house, who is a fixture

579
00:30:44,834 --> 00:30:47,554
Speaker 2: of every daily routine that you make, whether it's getting

580
00:30:47,634 --> 00:30:49,514
Speaker 2: up and taking them for a walk or what you

581
00:30:49,554 --> 00:30:51,554
Speaker 2: do in the evenings, Like they are a fixture of

582
00:30:51,594 --> 00:30:54,554
Speaker 2: your day every day, design your life around them, and

583
00:30:54,594 --> 00:30:57,914
Speaker 2: so I think that that's why it upends everything so much,

584
00:30:58,594 --> 00:31:01,154
Speaker 2: as well as just obviously the pure love you feel.

585
00:31:01,994 --> 00:31:05,714
Speaker 2: I think it's beautiful that Nagi has said she needs time.

586
00:31:05,754 --> 00:31:08,754
Speaker 3: And the fact that she's had this astronomical success and

587
00:31:08,834 --> 00:31:12,114
Speaker 3: you've got this dog. He doesn't give a share, whether

588
00:31:12,154 --> 00:31:14,754
Speaker 3: it's the best or an award or how much money

589
00:31:14,794 --> 00:31:18,554
Speaker 3: you've got, just absolutely doesn't care. Is just they're no

590
00:31:18,554 --> 00:31:20,754
Speaker 3: matter what. I think that there's something grounding about that.

591
00:31:20,794 --> 00:31:23,914
Speaker 3: We talked off Friday about mattering, and I think people

592
00:31:23,994 --> 00:31:27,794
Speaker 3: who and you know, not everyone has the relationship with

593
00:31:27,834 --> 00:31:31,354
Speaker 3: their dog that Nagi did, but there are people who

594
00:31:31,394 --> 00:31:32,954
Speaker 3: like wake up in the morning like that's for a

595
00:31:32,994 --> 00:31:35,634
Speaker 3: lot of people, their purpose is like looking after their dog.

596
00:31:35,634 --> 00:31:37,434
Speaker 3: It gives them a sense of purpose every single day,

597
00:31:37,474 --> 00:31:40,554
Speaker 3: and then that evaporates overnight. I also think one of

598
00:31:40,594 --> 00:31:46,194
Speaker 3: the reasons it is quite shattering, is because most of

599
00:31:46,234 --> 00:31:49,994
Speaker 3: us are really insulated from the reality of death, especially

600
00:31:50,034 --> 00:31:53,394
Speaker 3: if you haven't seen, you know, your parents go through it,

601
00:31:53,434 --> 00:31:56,354
Speaker 3: if you haven't been confronted with it in a really

602
00:31:56,394 --> 00:32:01,434
Speaker 3: close way, holding your pet's hand and watching as the

603
00:32:01,514 --> 00:32:03,434
Speaker 3: light goes out of their eyes and they take a

604
00:32:03,474 --> 00:32:06,874
Speaker 3: breath in and don't take a breath out. That is

605
00:32:07,114 --> 00:32:09,354
Speaker 3: it might be the first time you've ever in Canada. Yeah,

606
00:32:09,474 --> 00:32:13,834
Speaker 3: it's a really destabilizing type of grief. And I think,

607
00:32:13,874 --> 00:32:16,594
Speaker 3: as you say, Holly, it then becomes a bit of

608
00:32:16,634 --> 00:32:19,674
Speaker 3: a channel to put a lot of a lot of feelings.

609
00:32:19,714 --> 00:32:23,234
Speaker 3: And I remember thinking with Caesar because I just could

610
00:32:23,314 --> 00:32:26,834
Speaker 3: not believe how I cried and how distraught I was.

611
00:32:27,514 --> 00:32:29,914
Speaker 3: And then I thought that maybe it's it's kind of

612
00:32:29,954 --> 00:32:35,674
Speaker 3: this weird tear through time where you momentarily feel the

613
00:32:35,674 --> 00:32:39,754
Speaker 3: weight of what you've already lost. So with the person

614
00:32:39,794 --> 00:32:42,234
Speaker 3: you were saying who didn't cry for their brother, they

615
00:32:42,274 --> 00:32:45,834
Speaker 3: probably are crying for their brother through their dog, and

616
00:32:45,874 --> 00:32:47,914
Speaker 3: then what they're still is to lose. I remember looking

617
00:32:47,914 --> 00:32:50,954
Speaker 3: at Caesar and it's just a reminder of mortality and

618
00:32:51,354 --> 00:32:54,434
Speaker 3: how terrifying that is, and you're confronted with it in

619
00:32:54,474 --> 00:32:57,914
Speaker 3: a way that so few of us are in the

620
00:32:57,914 --> 00:32:58,474
Speaker 3: modern world.

621
00:32:59,114 --> 00:33:01,434
Speaker 2: I want to send massive love both to Nagi of

622
00:33:01,474 --> 00:33:03,114
Speaker 2: course and all the fans of Dozer, but to any

623
00:33:03,114 --> 00:33:06,114
Speaker 2: out louders who are struggling with loss of all kinds

624
00:33:06,274 --> 00:33:08,114
Speaker 2: like I think that one of the reasons why that

625
00:33:08,154 --> 00:33:09,994
Speaker 2: you get a big reaction to a story like this,

626
00:33:10,074 --> 00:33:12,674
Speaker 2: And I know a lot of people. When Nagi posted

627
00:33:12,674 --> 00:33:16,034
Speaker 2: that Dozer was unwell last year and then also in

628
00:33:16,114 --> 00:33:20,354
Speaker 2: recent weeks, people have been really invested and worrying about

629
00:33:20,434 --> 00:33:22,354
Speaker 2: him and posting about him and talking about it. And

630
00:33:22,474 --> 00:33:26,154
Speaker 2: I think it's because it's a grief we can very

631
00:33:26,154 --> 00:33:29,074
Speaker 2: many of us that can touch and understand. So massive

632
00:33:29,114 --> 00:33:30,474
Speaker 2: love to you out louders.

633
00:33:32,234 --> 00:33:35,634
Speaker 3: Okay, do you guys remember the Coldplay kiss Camp?

634
00:33:35,994 --> 00:33:36,714
Speaker 4: How could we not?

635
00:33:37,394 --> 00:33:40,874
Speaker 3: Oh the couple kissing on the Jumpertron who then jumped

636
00:33:40,874 --> 00:33:43,274
Speaker 3: apart as soon as they appeared on the big screen

637
00:33:43,314 --> 00:33:45,714
Speaker 3: because turns out they were both married to other people.

638
00:33:45,834 --> 00:33:47,754
Speaker 2: How long ago was that? Do you think it's one

639
00:33:47,794 --> 00:33:51,954
Speaker 2: of those moments in time? Yeah, we all moved.

640
00:33:51,674 --> 00:33:54,674
Speaker 3: On, Yeah, but yeah, it was really fun for the

641
00:33:54,674 --> 00:33:55,274
Speaker 3: whole family.

642
00:33:55,394 --> 00:33:57,074
Speaker 4: I thought likely.

643
00:33:58,434 --> 00:34:02,354
Speaker 3: Families exactly, so fun for all of us except mostly

644
00:34:02,434 --> 00:34:05,594
Speaker 3: two people in their families. So a man named Andy Byron,

645
00:34:05,754 --> 00:34:08,593
Speaker 3: who was the CEO of a company called Astronomer, and

646
00:34:08,634 --> 00:34:11,274
Speaker 3: the woman he was cheating on his wife with his

647
00:34:11,433 --> 00:34:15,473
Speaker 3: human resources executive, Christian Cabot, Well, a bit of who

648
00:34:15,554 --> 00:34:17,314
Speaker 3: wasn't even cheating? She was separated.

649
00:34:17,474 --> 00:34:18,514
Speaker 4: She was separated.

650
00:34:18,994 --> 00:34:21,074
Speaker 3: Yes, I feel like that's an important detail that we

651
00:34:21,114 --> 00:34:24,394
Speaker 3: need to keep reminding people. Well she has don't worry okay,

652
00:34:24,394 --> 00:34:26,114
Speaker 3: so but a bit of an update, so I know

653
00:34:26,154 --> 00:34:29,114
Speaker 3: you guys were hanging out to know what has been

654
00:34:29,154 --> 00:34:33,994
Speaker 3: happening since for just eight hundred and seventy five dollars.

655
00:34:34,234 --> 00:34:37,114
Speaker 3: You can hear Christian Cabot speak at a one day

656
00:34:37,434 --> 00:34:40,954
Speaker 3: Crisis Comm's conference about how she took control of the

657
00:34:41,034 --> 00:34:45,234
Speaker 3: narrative and rewrote her story. My first question was, did

658
00:34:45,274 --> 00:34:46,554
Speaker 3: she should I miss that.

659
00:34:48,754 --> 00:34:50,754
Speaker 4: Popular yeah, opinion.

660
00:34:50,554 --> 00:34:52,714
Speaker 2: Like she gave that interview to the New York Time.

661
00:34:52,914 --> 00:34:57,074
Speaker 3: Well, so the description her like kind of bio for

662
00:34:57,154 --> 00:34:59,913
Speaker 3: the conference said, while attending a Coldplay concert in July,

663
00:34:59,994 --> 00:35:02,874
Speaker 3: there would go middle of last year and unwittingly appearing

664
00:35:02,874 --> 00:35:06,074
Speaker 3: on the kiss cam, Kristian Cabot's life blew up. She

665
00:35:06,154 --> 00:35:09,834
Speaker 3: experienced firsthand the extremity of public shaming that women have

666
00:35:09,874 --> 00:35:12,754
Speaker 3: long experienced when in the negative spotlight of the media,

667
00:35:13,154 --> 00:35:16,274
Speaker 3: won their male counterparts often seemed to avoid. I would

668
00:35:16,354 --> 00:35:20,194
Speaker 3: argue Andy Byron did not avoid that in this particular situation.

669
00:35:21,074 --> 00:35:24,074
Speaker 3: But in terms of crisis comms, you're exactly right, Holly.

670
00:35:24,234 --> 00:35:26,914
Speaker 3: She did an interview with The New York Times in December.

671
00:35:26,994 --> 00:35:31,194
Speaker 3: I missed it, which I'm obsessed with this story of

672
00:35:31,274 --> 00:35:33,474
Speaker 3: the passing of time. Is that no one cares.

673
00:35:33,674 --> 00:35:35,354
Speaker 4: I know that.

674
00:35:35,354 --> 00:35:38,994
Speaker 3: That's part of the strategy, is that you wait for

675
00:35:39,034 --> 00:35:41,274
Speaker 3: everything to blow over, and then you go, I'm ready

676
00:35:41,314 --> 00:35:45,674
Speaker 3: to tell my story, and everyone's like who.

677
00:35:45,834 --> 00:35:49,074
Speaker 2: But also crucially, everybody's already made up your story in

678
00:35:49,114 --> 00:35:52,074
Speaker 2: their head. So when she gave that interview to the

679
00:35:52,114 --> 00:35:55,393
Speaker 2: New York Times, she did give some very important details,

680
00:35:55,554 --> 00:35:57,954
Speaker 2: like the fact she was separated, like the fact that

681
00:35:57,994 --> 00:36:00,433
Speaker 2: their relationship didn't continue. It did for a hot minute

682
00:36:00,434 --> 00:36:02,114
Speaker 2: and then it didn't. It was the first time she

683
00:36:02,234 --> 00:36:05,234
Speaker 2: kissed him, Yeah, exactly. Allegedly, she gave all these details.

684
00:36:05,234 --> 00:36:07,794
Speaker 2: But the thing is is we'd all gone cheetahs, dirty

685
00:36:07,834 --> 00:36:11,314
Speaker 2: ditty cheetahs, and we just didn't have space to listen to.

686
00:36:12,114 --> 00:36:13,634
Speaker 4: But when you actually read it.

687
00:36:13,634 --> 00:36:16,274
Speaker 3: It's a brilliant interview and what she says about public

688
00:36:16,314 --> 00:36:18,593
Speaker 3: shaming and trying to teach your kids that it's okay

689
00:36:18,634 --> 00:36:21,034
Speaker 3: to make mistakes while she's being yelled at in the

690
00:36:21,074 --> 00:36:24,114
Speaker 3: street for being a home wreck card can I.

691
00:36:24,074 --> 00:36:25,194
Speaker 4: Ask, do you guys reckon?

692
00:36:25,234 --> 00:36:27,234
Speaker 3: She should write a book? Do you reckon? Anyone would

693
00:36:27,234 --> 00:36:27,474
Speaker 3: buy it?

694
00:36:27,834 --> 00:36:28,714
Speaker 2: Whole book?

695
00:36:29,154 --> 00:36:31,754
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I think she could write an essay

696
00:36:31,914 --> 00:36:36,954
Speaker 3: I'd read. I wouldn't so once I'm wondering, I'm wondering

697
00:36:36,994 --> 00:36:37,834
Speaker 3: how she can make a buck.

698
00:36:38,074 --> 00:36:41,194
Speaker 2: Well, well, here she can talk at pre conferences, Holly.

699
00:36:41,274 --> 00:36:43,914
Speaker 3: I read that even though they're charging that much for

700
00:36:43,914 --> 00:36:45,354
Speaker 3: a day, that she's not getting paid.

701
00:36:45,474 --> 00:36:47,234
Speaker 2: Why would you do it if you weren't getting paid?

702
00:36:47,394 --> 00:36:49,034
Speaker 3: So here's she's unemployed.

703
00:36:49,154 --> 00:36:50,794
Speaker 2: Well, this is what I mean. So I would expect

704
00:36:50,834 --> 00:36:53,473
Speaker 2: she was getting paid because the problem with this kind

705
00:36:53,554 --> 00:36:56,114
Speaker 2: of fame, this is a very tricky, particular kind of

706
00:36:56,154 --> 00:37:00,634
Speaker 2: notoriety infamy. Right. So I remember at the time people

707
00:37:00,674 --> 00:37:03,873
Speaker 2: said that story will follow these people everywhere. She'll go

708
00:37:03,914 --> 00:37:05,953
Speaker 2: off and get another job in corporate comms or whatever

709
00:37:05,994 --> 00:37:09,554
Speaker 2: she was doing. Hr he lost his job, but he'll

710
00:37:09,594 --> 00:37:11,913
Speaker 2: go and get another CEO job somewhere as some non

711
00:37:11,994 --> 00:37:14,594
Speaker 2: high profile company and everyone will forget about it. And

712
00:37:14,634 --> 00:37:16,634
Speaker 2: then people are like, but would they like, if Christian

713
00:37:16,674 --> 00:37:18,754
Speaker 2: Cabbot turn up in your pilates class, would you be like,

714
00:37:18,834 --> 00:37:20,114
Speaker 2: that's the sea lady.

715
00:37:20,194 --> 00:37:22,194
Speaker 3: But the interesting thing is I didn't know her name

716
00:37:22,434 --> 00:37:24,034
Speaker 3: or I couldn't recognize her face.

717
00:37:24,154 --> 00:37:26,354
Speaker 2: That's why this is a tricky thing to get right,

718
00:37:26,474 --> 00:37:28,994
Speaker 2: isn't it Because by following it up and putting the

719
00:37:29,034 --> 00:37:32,834
Speaker 2: record straight, she now has entered the public conversation in

720
00:37:32,874 --> 00:37:36,634
Speaker 2: a way that maybe she wouldn't have needed to. But then,

721
00:37:36,674 --> 00:37:39,874
Speaker 2: on the other hand, she does have an interesting story

722
00:37:39,914 --> 00:37:42,594
Speaker 2: to tell about what happens when you get busted cheating

723
00:37:42,634 --> 00:37:47,114
Speaker 2: at a Coldplay concert and the entire world, like Australia, India,

724
00:37:47,194 --> 00:37:49,154
Speaker 2: everywhere in the world is showing your face on the

725
00:37:49,154 --> 00:37:52,714
Speaker 2: telly and being like, look at these idiots loll like and.

726
00:37:52,714 --> 00:37:54,553
Speaker 3: Imagine if we're at work and they were like, hey,

727
00:37:54,714 --> 00:37:57,834
Speaker 3: new HR person, it's Kristin Cabot and you went, oh,

728
00:37:57,874 --> 00:37:58,434
Speaker 3: I kind.

729
00:37:58,234 --> 00:37:59,354
Speaker 2: Of can you imagine the group?

730
00:38:00,114 --> 00:38:02,154
Speaker 3: Yeah, didn't she have an affair with a CEO? Like

731
00:38:02,194 --> 00:38:05,274
Speaker 3: it also was probably incongruous with the role she wants

732
00:38:05,314 --> 00:38:07,634
Speaker 3: to do. So she probably does need a career a pivot,

733
00:38:08,314 --> 00:38:10,154
Speaker 3: but I think she needs better advice if she's doing

734
00:38:10,194 --> 00:38:12,714
Speaker 3: conferences for free. Yeah yeah, yeah, not a good myths

735
00:38:12,794 --> 00:38:13,834
Speaker 3: this movie, I reckon.

736
00:38:14,114 --> 00:38:15,874
Speaker 2: We have to pay then.

737
00:38:15,834 --> 00:38:19,954
Speaker 3: For their Wayah, I reckon in a couple of years,

738
00:38:20,274 --> 00:38:22,714
Speaker 3: I'd watch a docco. I think she should produce the

739
00:38:22,754 --> 00:38:26,834
Speaker 3: document do flick stocko through Parter. Yeah. If Chris Martin

740
00:38:26,914 --> 00:38:30,034
Speaker 3: was in interview, yes, because the I want Gwyneth Paltrow.

741
00:38:30,514 --> 00:38:32,874
Speaker 2: She was really so, she was really mad about Gwyneth.

742
00:38:32,874 --> 00:38:34,754
Speaker 2: That was another thing that Kristin Cabot said in the

743
00:38:34,754 --> 00:38:37,834
Speaker 2: New York Times. Thing because people will remember. Maybe they won't,

744
00:38:37,874 --> 00:38:41,274
Speaker 2: but I clearly do that Gwyneth jumped on very quickly

745
00:38:41,354 --> 00:38:44,114
Speaker 2: and didn't add for Astronomer, which was genius pre moved

746
00:38:44,114 --> 00:38:46,154
Speaker 2: from astronomer. But it kind of really took the piss

747
00:38:46,154 --> 00:38:48,714
Speaker 2: out of the situation. And we all thought that was funny.

748
00:38:49,074 --> 00:38:51,874
Speaker 2: But Kristin Cabot did not. She thought it was mean

749
00:38:52,234 --> 00:38:55,434
Speaker 2: and unsisterly. How dare she say those things about my Gwyneth?

750
00:38:58,034 --> 00:39:02,034
Speaker 3: She said, you're the one who talked about unconscious uncoupling,

751
00:39:02,074 --> 00:39:03,393
Speaker 3: and now you're making fun of me.

752
00:39:03,994 --> 00:39:06,433
Speaker 4: It would be really hard to be. I don't know.

753
00:39:06,634 --> 00:39:08,554
Speaker 3: I do think there's something in it. I do think

754
00:39:08,554 --> 00:39:10,794
Speaker 3: there's a career opportunity. I would go to the session

755
00:39:10,914 --> 00:39:18,434
Speaker 3: if it was free, I wouldn't pay it. Fair after

756
00:39:18,474 --> 00:39:22,393
Speaker 3: the Break the most bamboozling celebrity profile I have ever

757
00:39:22,474 --> 00:39:33,274
Speaker 3: personally read. Okay, have we all read the Bianca Sensory

758
00:39:33,394 --> 00:39:34,433
Speaker 3: profile in Vanity Fail?

759
00:39:34,554 --> 00:39:35,074
Speaker 4: Every word?

760
00:39:35,274 --> 00:39:39,474
Speaker 2: I have and look. I like Vanity Fair. I respect

761
00:39:39,514 --> 00:39:43,914
Speaker 2: their journalism, but that story was too long. What actually

762
00:39:43,994 --> 00:39:46,553
Speaker 2: happened in that story? Nothing? All right?

763
00:39:46,634 --> 00:39:48,953
Speaker 3: This is what I need to get to the bottom of.

764
00:39:49,194 --> 00:39:55,834
Speaker 3: So a reminder, Censory is the wife of Yay formerly

765
00:39:55,874 --> 00:39:58,234
Speaker 3: known as Kanye West. She grew up in Melbourne, and

766
00:39:58,354 --> 00:40:01,714
Speaker 3: let's all be honest and transparent about what she's best

767
00:40:01,754 --> 00:40:04,114
Speaker 3: known for, and that would be how she dresses, or

768
00:40:04,194 --> 00:40:08,034
Speaker 3: rather doesn't. She three years she's been with him, and

769
00:40:08,074 --> 00:40:14,154
Speaker 3: for most of her public appearances she has been somewhat naked.

770
00:40:14,274 --> 00:40:18,274
Speaker 3: She's been naked so Grammy's last year, she wore a

771
00:40:18,594 --> 00:40:21,513
Speaker 3: naked dress, but like it was completely see through and

772
00:40:21,554 --> 00:40:24,034
Speaker 3: in order to I think that we put a picture

773
00:40:24,074 --> 00:40:26,194
Speaker 3: on our Instagram, and I think that meta punished us

774
00:40:26,394 --> 00:40:29,714
Speaker 3: Like it was you could see nipples, you could see bottom,

775
00:40:29,874 --> 00:40:30,834
Speaker 3: you could see everything.

776
00:40:30,994 --> 00:40:32,754
Speaker 2: There was also a lot of pap shots where she

777
00:40:32,794 --> 00:40:34,634
Speaker 2: appeared to not be wearing anything in public.

778
00:40:35,114 --> 00:40:38,954
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly right, although sometimes she covers her face and

779
00:40:38,994 --> 00:40:42,393
Speaker 3: everything else is kind of nude. So she's worn fishnets

780
00:40:42,474 --> 00:40:46,754
Speaker 3: with no underwear underneath. She has worn a like plastic

781
00:40:46,834 --> 00:40:51,674
Speaker 3: sea through poncho, again no underwear. Sheer naked body suits

782
00:40:51,914 --> 00:40:55,034
Speaker 3: stockings like you can see she's got stockings, but then

783
00:40:55,074 --> 00:40:58,034
Speaker 3: she's also got stockings on her head. You get the drift,

784
00:40:58,274 --> 00:41:02,114
Speaker 3: So vanity fair. This article seems to be an attempt

785
00:41:02,234 --> 00:41:09,234
Speaker 3: to rehabilitate sensory and by extension, Yay's image. There have

786
00:41:09,314 --> 00:41:13,433
Speaker 3: been stories coming out about what Yay has said for

787
00:41:13,794 --> 00:41:16,993
Speaker 3: literally years. We have touched on some of them. Some

788
00:41:17,074 --> 00:41:21,714
Speaker 3: of them are almost too borrent to go into. And

789
00:41:21,794 --> 00:41:27,354
Speaker 3: the line between mental illness and hate speech and what

790
00:41:27,514 --> 00:41:29,513
Speaker 3: sense can be made of any of it, we've kind

791
00:41:29,554 --> 00:41:33,473
Speaker 3: of struggled to work that out at times. Back to sensory,

792
00:41:34,034 --> 00:41:37,873
Speaker 3: the profile starts with the sentence Bianca Sensory says she's

793
00:41:37,954 --> 00:41:42,554
Speaker 3: done being naked. Did you notice that nowhere did she say.

794
00:41:42,394 --> 00:41:44,834
Speaker 2: That it's going to be awkward having a bath having

795
00:41:44,874 --> 00:41:45,994
Speaker 2: sex like she needs to be that.

796
00:41:46,314 --> 00:41:48,154
Speaker 3: She needs to be naked sometimes. And also the feature

797
00:41:48,154 --> 00:41:51,034
Speaker 3: image on the article is her riding a horse naked. Naked, Yeah,

798
00:41:51,074 --> 00:41:51,914
Speaker 3: I worry about fleets.

799
00:41:51,994 --> 00:41:54,834
Speaker 2: I can't be entirely done with being naked. No, not really.

800
00:41:55,074 --> 00:41:57,754
Speaker 3: No, I worry about the cleanliness of the horse and

801
00:41:57,754 --> 00:42:00,354
Speaker 3: what my climb up. That's why we don't straddle horses nude.

802
00:42:00,994 --> 00:42:01,754
Speaker 2: It's that why.

803
00:42:01,794 --> 00:42:02,354
Speaker 4: That's why.

804
00:42:02,474 --> 00:42:03,194
Speaker 3: That's why.

805
00:42:03,394 --> 00:42:04,714
Speaker 2: I thought that might be other reasons.

806
00:42:04,714 --> 00:42:07,473
Speaker 3: But guys, she's ready to expect. Paragraph four, she ready

807
00:42:07,514 --> 00:42:11,114
Speaker 3: to speak. Paragraph eight, she is ready to speak. I

808
00:42:11,114 --> 00:42:13,634
Speaker 3: don't understand a single thing, she says. A nice entire article.

809
00:42:13,874 --> 00:42:15,114
Speaker 4: I'm trying to be kind.

810
00:42:15,234 --> 00:42:18,074
Speaker 3: I'm trying. But the high lights I suppose when she

811
00:42:18,154 --> 00:42:23,114
Speaker 3: says I love my artwork, which I think is her nudity.

812
00:42:23,674 --> 00:42:27,154
Speaker 3: She also asks the author of the piece to tell

813
00:42:27,194 --> 00:42:29,433
Speaker 3: the Vanity Fair editor that last year she was the

814
00:42:29,434 --> 00:42:30,473
Speaker 3: most googled woman in the world.

815
00:42:30,554 --> 00:42:31,594
Speaker 2: That's my favorite part of this.

816
00:42:32,274 --> 00:42:34,274
Speaker 3: I really enjoyed that detail. And she said, it's not

817
00:42:34,394 --> 00:42:39,953
Speaker 3: about me bragging. Basically, she says, it is not a

818
00:42:39,954 --> 00:42:42,913
Speaker 3: position that anybody in time has ever had that much

819
00:42:42,994 --> 00:42:46,434
Speaker 3: visibility without speech, which is like, if you ever wanted

820
00:42:46,434 --> 00:42:48,754
Speaker 3: to say anything, everyone's listening. It's just you have stockings

821
00:42:48,794 --> 00:42:51,514
Speaker 3: on your head. But I also kind of I'm not

822
00:42:51,634 --> 00:42:55,114
Speaker 3: quite sure about that. I'm like, oh, I don't know, Cleopatra,

823
00:42:55,234 --> 00:42:55,873
Speaker 3: what'd she say?

824
00:42:56,034 --> 00:42:56,754
Speaker 4: Do you know what I mean?

825
00:42:56,754 --> 00:43:01,194
Speaker 2: Marilyn Monroe modlight weird. Yeah, actually that revelationary that women

826
00:43:01,234 --> 00:43:03,354
Speaker 2: are seen and not heard. She didn't get the cover,

827
00:43:03,394 --> 00:43:06,953
Speaker 2: by the way, Tayana Taylor got the cover. She's asking

828
00:43:07,034 --> 00:43:08,794
Speaker 2: to dominated Bianca do better.

829
00:43:08,914 --> 00:43:10,434
Speaker 4: Sorry, sorry, mate, your performance.

830
00:43:11,194 --> 00:43:14,034
Speaker 3: So ann Appeal, who is the author, wants to know

831
00:43:14,074 --> 00:43:16,074
Speaker 3: who is in control of her life because that's been

832
00:43:16,114 --> 00:43:20,474
Speaker 3: a big theme. Is like, is Bianca sen sorry being controlled?

833
00:43:20,714 --> 00:43:23,594
Speaker 2: Because yay, Like among all the awful shit he's said

834
00:43:23,594 --> 00:43:26,114
Speaker 2: in the past couple of years, he has quite explicitly

835
00:43:26,154 --> 00:43:27,114
Speaker 2: said at times that.

836
00:43:27,034 --> 00:43:29,433
Speaker 3: He was controlling her yep, and that she tried to leave.

837
00:43:29,514 --> 00:43:33,033
Speaker 3: He posted he posted on x I have dominion over

838
00:43:33,114 --> 00:43:36,154
Speaker 3: my wife in capitals. Yeah, he released a song. I

839
00:43:36,154 --> 00:43:37,953
Speaker 3: think that was all about where she went and like

840
00:43:37,994 --> 00:43:39,234
Speaker 3: it's really scary stuff.

841
00:43:39,274 --> 00:43:42,114
Speaker 4: So it's not like a weird question to ask, no,

842
00:43:42,234 --> 00:43:42,554
Speaker 4: but she.

843
00:43:42,554 --> 00:43:44,754
Speaker 3: Keeps giving answers, like a tree is the shape of

844
00:43:44,794 --> 00:43:46,913
Speaker 3: a tree because that's what nature does, or whatever. What

845
00:43:46,994 --> 00:43:48,593
Speaker 3: does a house want to be? And that I feel

846
00:43:48,634 --> 00:43:51,513
Speaker 3: will be my life's work. I don't understand what's going on.

847
00:43:51,834 --> 00:43:52,754
Speaker 3: I don't understand.

848
00:43:52,874 --> 00:43:56,074
Speaker 2: Look generally speaking, I quite like it when celebrities are

849
00:43:56,194 --> 00:43:59,754
Speaker 2: bat shit. I generally think I don't want my celebrities

850
00:43:59,754 --> 00:44:01,873
Speaker 2: to be dislike me. I am boring, I go to

851
00:44:01,914 --> 00:44:04,754
Speaker 2: the shops, I scrub toilet. I don't want my celebrities

852
00:44:04,794 --> 00:44:06,834
Speaker 2: like that. I'm sorry. Sometimes I want them riding a

853
00:44:06,834 --> 00:44:09,993
Speaker 2: horse in the nude and talking about how they bought

854
00:44:09,994 --> 00:44:12,194
Speaker 2: a house just to gut it and move out again,

855
00:44:12,234 --> 00:44:14,914
Speaker 2: which is another thing that happens in this article.

856
00:44:15,354 --> 00:44:18,074
Speaker 3: Even though she has a degree in architect Okay, that's

857
00:44:18,074 --> 00:44:19,154
Speaker 3: something I have to talk about.

858
00:44:19,394 --> 00:44:20,714
Speaker 4: She's not thriving with her.

859
00:44:20,634 --> 00:44:24,234
Speaker 2: Arquet whatever whatever we think about, and I do struggle,

860
00:44:24,314 --> 00:44:26,194
Speaker 2: you know. I try it not to be judgmental, but

861
00:44:26,514 --> 00:44:32,114
Speaker 2: that period of the naked Bianca yay paparazzi was very

862
00:44:32,154 --> 00:44:35,354
Speaker 2: tricky to get through as a mother, as a bothering

863
00:44:35,394 --> 00:44:38,034
Speaker 2: It in inverted commas is that you know, you've got

864
00:44:38,034 --> 00:44:41,154
Speaker 2: a teenage daughter who notices these things, and she's like,

865
00:44:41,234 --> 00:44:44,074
Speaker 2: why is that? Lady, always naked, and why is everybody

866
00:44:44,114 --> 00:44:45,634
Speaker 2: always looking at her? And why is she the most

867
00:44:45,634 --> 00:44:46,314
Speaker 2: google woman.

868
00:44:46,114 --> 00:44:48,393
Speaker 3: In the world standing next to a fully clothed Kanye And.

869
00:44:48,594 --> 00:44:51,834
Speaker 2: These are difficult questions to answer. Bianki, you did not

870
00:44:51,954 --> 00:44:55,234
Speaker 2: make our lives easy there for a little while. You

871
00:44:55,394 --> 00:44:58,314
Speaker 2: can't deny, though, that this is an interesting story, like

872
00:44:58,394 --> 00:45:03,114
Speaker 2: a pretty ordinary and inverted Commas schoolgirl from Melbourne who's

873
00:45:03,114 --> 00:45:05,074
Speaker 2: got sisters and a mom and just normal life.

874
00:45:05,154 --> 00:45:09,234
Speaker 4: Ever, brother who refuses to a brother of ends up.

875
00:45:09,674 --> 00:45:12,154
Speaker 4: I want him to talk. He knows what he's doing.

876
00:45:12,394 --> 00:45:14,314
Speaker 2: But that is an interesting story.

877
00:45:14,514 --> 00:45:16,794
Speaker 3: I mean, the thing I love the most is that

878
00:45:16,834 --> 00:45:19,074
Speaker 3: she's so insistent that she didn't want to use her

879
00:45:19,114 --> 00:45:20,714
Speaker 3: voice until she had something to say. And yet she

880
00:45:20,754 --> 00:45:23,514
Speaker 3: says absolutely nothing in all of these words. But in

881
00:45:23,594 --> 00:45:28,194
Speaker 3: the age of Epstein, where we've got widespread sex trafficking

882
00:45:28,274 --> 00:45:31,513
Speaker 3: and women who have no voice while rich, powerful men

883
00:45:31,714 --> 00:45:35,274
Speaker 3: use them solely as sex objects, is it radical to

884
00:45:35,274 --> 00:45:37,714
Speaker 3: be naked and say nothing. That's what I'd like to

885
00:45:37,754 --> 00:45:39,674
Speaker 3: ask her. And you know what, the one thing she

886
00:45:39,754 --> 00:45:42,074
Speaker 3: does say, and this is on a more serious note,

887
00:45:42,114 --> 00:45:44,994
Speaker 3: is she does say, I am not anti Semitic, and

888
00:45:44,994 --> 00:45:46,674
Speaker 3: she's like, I knew I'd have an opportunity to say

889
00:45:46,674 --> 00:45:49,194
Speaker 3: that one day and then moves on. But then in

890
00:45:49,234 --> 00:45:52,234
Speaker 3: the same breath she says she's talking about how in

891
00:45:52,274 --> 00:45:54,953
Speaker 3: love she is with Yay, and she says, I love

892
00:45:55,034 --> 00:45:58,194
Speaker 3: him so much. We're like the same person. I'm like,

893
00:45:58,274 --> 00:46:01,794
Speaker 3: this is the issue. You've become so enmeshed and work

894
00:46:01,834 --> 00:46:05,154
Speaker 3: in the same business and excuse him, and you say

895
00:46:05,194 --> 00:46:07,714
Speaker 3: it's been like doing CPR on him for last year.

896
00:46:07,754 --> 00:46:10,674
Speaker 3: We all know he has mental health issues, and we

897
00:46:10,714 --> 00:46:13,554
Speaker 3: can't possibly understand or speculate how much of that has

898
00:46:13,634 --> 00:46:17,314
Speaker 3: to do with the objective hate speech that's come out

899
00:46:17,354 --> 00:46:20,354
Speaker 3: of him over the years. But when you say we're

900
00:46:20,474 --> 00:46:23,554
Speaker 3: like the same person, it's very difficult for us to

901
00:46:23,714 --> 00:46:27,594
Speaker 3: watch her stand next to him at events and hold

902
00:46:27,634 --> 00:46:34,234
Speaker 3: his hand and enable him when he is literally threatening

903
00:46:34,514 --> 00:46:38,473
Speaker 3: violence to Jewish people all over the world. Like, I

904
00:46:38,474 --> 00:46:42,234
Speaker 3: don't think that's actually sexist to kind of look at

905
00:46:42,274 --> 00:46:45,474
Speaker 3: her and go, mate, you're working in the same business endeavors,

906
00:46:45,514 --> 00:46:49,234
Speaker 3: you're in the same meetings, you're privy to your benefiting

907
00:46:49,314 --> 00:46:51,834
Speaker 3: from this man's his career.

908
00:46:52,434 --> 00:46:55,314
Speaker 2: I find that a bit difficult because she didn't say

909
00:46:55,354 --> 00:46:57,794
Speaker 2: any of those things, like he has been. I mean,

910
00:46:57,914 --> 00:47:00,994
Speaker 2: it's hard to overstate how offensive a lot of the

911
00:47:00,994 --> 00:47:02,873
Speaker 2: stuff that has come out out of his mouth over

912
00:47:02,874 --> 00:47:05,394
Speaker 2: the past couple of years had been. But it didn't

913
00:47:05,434 --> 00:47:09,114
Speaker 2: come out of her mouth. And benefit of the doubt,

914
00:47:10,034 --> 00:47:12,513
Speaker 2: it is very difficult being in a relationship with someone

915
00:47:12,554 --> 00:47:16,473
Speaker 2: who is suffering from very severe mental health issues. On

916
00:47:16,514 --> 00:47:19,914
Speaker 2: its face, it appears that that is what's been happening

917
00:47:19,954 --> 00:47:23,074
Speaker 2: with Kanye. It doesn't excuse any of it, you know,

918
00:47:23,114 --> 00:47:25,393
Speaker 2: the anti semitism, the racism, any of that stuff. It

919
00:47:25,394 --> 00:47:29,514
Speaker 2: doesn't excuse it. The misogyny, it doesn't excuse it. But

920
00:47:29,754 --> 00:47:32,314
Speaker 2: it wasn't her. And sometimes I think, and this is

921
00:47:32,314 --> 00:47:33,913
Speaker 2: a thing we've been talking about a bit today, we

922
00:47:34,074 --> 00:47:38,674
Speaker 2: do love to blame a woman, particularly a provocative woman,

923
00:47:38,754 --> 00:47:41,073
Speaker 2: which there's no question that the way she dresses everything,

924
00:47:41,114 --> 00:47:44,393
Speaker 2: provocative is a loaded word. But she says herself deliberately

925
00:47:44,394 --> 00:47:47,714
Speaker 2: trying to provoke a reaction for a man's awful deeds,

926
00:47:47,794 --> 00:47:50,234
Speaker 2: Like it wasn't Biancher Sensory who said those things.

927
00:47:50,794 --> 00:47:53,154
Speaker 3: I will say I actually quite liked this she said.

928
00:47:53,514 --> 00:47:55,834
Speaker 3: This year was a lot like doing CPR for months.

929
00:47:56,314 --> 00:47:58,274
Speaker 3: I have the love and empathy for him to be

930
00:47:58,354 --> 00:48:00,914
Speaker 3: able to do that, and I understand the world doesn't

931
00:48:01,634 --> 00:48:04,514
Speaker 3: I quite liked. I was like, yeah, like you might

932
00:48:04,674 --> 00:48:06,794
Speaker 3: have the patience to do that for the person you love,

933
00:48:06,914 --> 00:48:07,873
Speaker 3: but I don't.

934
00:48:08,074 --> 00:48:10,114
Speaker 2: This is why this is very complicated talk about in

935
00:48:10,154 --> 00:48:12,634
Speaker 2: a way, because there are clearly a lot of mental

936
00:48:12,714 --> 00:48:14,913
Speaker 2: health issues going on here. She also in another part

937
00:48:14,954 --> 00:48:16,953
Speaker 2: of this, she talks about going into rehabit. She talks

938
00:48:16,954 --> 00:48:20,754
Speaker 2: about having issues with drugs. They both definitely read and

939
00:48:20,954 --> 00:48:23,354
Speaker 2: did for that manic period at least, like people with

940
00:48:23,554 --> 00:48:26,594
Speaker 2: some serious issues going on, and so to sort of

941
00:48:26,714 --> 00:48:29,794
Speaker 2: celebrate that is really difficult, but also to look at

942
00:48:29,834 --> 00:48:33,274
Speaker 2: it through a lens of normality is also really difficult.

943
00:48:33,874 --> 00:48:36,754
Speaker 2: And it's interesting how a lot of people wanted to

944
00:48:36,834 --> 00:48:40,873
Speaker 2: believe that she was under his control and maybe she wasn't.

945
00:48:40,994 --> 00:48:43,274
Speaker 2: She says that she wasn't, But I also don't necessarily

946
00:48:43,354 --> 00:48:45,514
Speaker 2: believe that either. There are lots of you know, she

947
00:48:45,634 --> 00:48:48,274
Speaker 2: certainly wouldn't be the first woman who's been in a

948
00:48:48,314 --> 00:48:50,873
Speaker 2: difficult relationship who is like everything's fine, totally want to

949
00:48:50,914 --> 00:48:53,554
Speaker 2: be here. He's a lovely guy like that. Whole stuff

950
00:48:53,634 --> 00:48:57,434
Speaker 2: is very it's complicated territory, right, whether or not people

951
00:48:57,634 --> 00:49:01,154
Speaker 2: know that they're being controlled or not. All we can

952
00:49:01,234 --> 00:49:04,234
Speaker 2: do is critique this on its face, and on its face,

953
00:49:04,354 --> 00:49:06,473
Speaker 2: she's like, it was an art project. You lot were

954
00:49:06,474 --> 00:49:08,554
Speaker 2: all obsessed with my boobs, but I was doing an

955
00:49:08,674 --> 00:49:11,554
Speaker 2: art project, is basically what she was. And that's the

956
00:49:11,674 --> 00:49:15,154
Speaker 2: interesting question, right is It's like, maybe it doesn't matter

957
00:49:15,194 --> 00:49:17,194
Speaker 2: at all that she was naked for a year and

958
00:49:17,274 --> 00:49:20,234
Speaker 2: we all obsessed about it. But also it's a very

959
00:49:20,354 --> 00:49:23,554
Speaker 2: unsatisfactory answer, isn't it just like it is art?

960
00:49:23,954 --> 00:49:25,794
Speaker 3: And I got to the end of it and I went,

961
00:49:26,874 --> 00:49:30,234
Speaker 3: I just had this epiphany. Biankson, sorry belongs on a

962
00:49:30,314 --> 00:49:34,154
Speaker 3: season of Maths. Yes, that's where she would thrive. I

963
00:49:34,274 --> 00:49:37,634
Speaker 3: think she'd make great reality television. I think i'd watch.

964
00:49:38,234 --> 00:49:40,154
Speaker 3: I think she'd be mashed with someone. I think she'd

965
00:49:40,194 --> 00:49:43,354
Speaker 3: have some great outfits. I think she'd have some fabulous outfits.

966
00:49:43,794 --> 00:49:49,354
Speaker 3: She's risen to this level of power that's actually quite dangerous. Yeah, well,

967
00:49:49,434 --> 00:49:51,593
Speaker 3: this is a quote that I think belongs on mass

968
00:49:52,074 --> 00:49:54,114
Speaker 3: So it says when she was a child who would

969
00:49:54,114 --> 00:49:57,594
Speaker 3: read books of factoids, so she'd have something to say

970
00:49:57,674 --> 00:49:59,634
Speaker 3: about any topic that I wrote. So I think this

971
00:49:59,754 --> 00:50:01,913
Speaker 3: is trying to paint her as like brain. She has

972
00:50:01,954 --> 00:50:06,154
Speaker 3: a bachelor's degree and a master's degree. She's she's not idiot,

973
00:50:06,234 --> 00:50:08,114
Speaker 3: so why doesn't any of this makes sense? But anyway,

974
00:50:08,514 --> 00:50:10,913
Speaker 3: she says, people would bring something up and then I'd

975
00:50:10,954 --> 00:50:13,634
Speaker 3: know something about that topic of information. She says, that's

976
00:50:13,674 --> 00:50:17,794
Speaker 3: a fun map. She says, I'm a researcher and factual.

977
00:50:17,914 --> 00:50:21,034
Speaker 3: Also great, put that in your valve that like, I

978
00:50:21,114 --> 00:50:23,994
Speaker 3: would watch that. I'm a researcher and factual. Also, I

979
00:50:24,754 --> 00:50:29,074
Speaker 3: think you're taking the piss and maybe this is also yeah,

980
00:50:29,514 --> 00:50:32,434
Speaker 3: that probably is, I know, And just all the stuff,

981
00:50:32,514 --> 00:50:35,514
Speaker 3: like even the description of what the show is in

982
00:50:35,674 --> 00:50:42,194
Speaker 3: South Korea, the performance arte and it's seven and something

983
00:50:42,274 --> 00:50:44,594
Speaker 3: about fame and having images projected on you.

984
00:50:44,754 --> 00:50:46,114
Speaker 4: But you are in control.

985
00:50:46,234 --> 00:50:49,474
Speaker 3: Apparently, it's like the Emperor's got no close. It's like

986
00:50:49,514 --> 00:50:53,154
Speaker 3: when does art just You're like, hold on, nobody's making

987
00:50:53,354 --> 00:50:57,674
Speaker 3: literally no little bit of sense. No, exactly right, exactly

988
00:50:58,794 --> 00:50:59,433
Speaker 3: out loud as I.

989
00:50:59,474 --> 00:51:02,634
Speaker 2: Hope you've had a fabulous, bad bunnyish day. We are

990
00:51:02,674 --> 00:51:04,794
Speaker 2: certainly happy to be here with you through it. Thank

991
00:51:04,834 --> 00:51:07,873
Speaker 2: you for filling in Klaid Stevens, thanks for having you

992
00:51:07,994 --> 00:51:10,474
Speaker 2: got such a pleasure, and thank you to our amazing

993
00:51:10,514 --> 00:51:13,234
Speaker 2: out loud team as always for helpings put the show together.

994
00:51:13,594 --> 00:51:15,834
Speaker 2: We will be back in your ears. Well, Miya will

995
00:51:15,914 --> 00:51:18,274
Speaker 2: certainly be back in your ears tomorrow. Who knows which

996
00:51:18,314 --> 00:51:21,114
Speaker 2: of us she will choose to sit beside her and

997
00:51:21,234 --> 00:51:23,434
Speaker 2: tomorrow's subscriber episode.

998
00:51:23,114 --> 00:51:25,234
Speaker 3: I personally prefer having a longer lunch break.

999
00:51:27,354 --> 00:51:29,674
Speaker 4: Don't tell her, she'll.

1000
00:51:29,554 --> 00:51:30,674
Speaker 2: Definitely call you in.

1001
00:51:31,594 --> 00:51:33,594
Speaker 4: But we'll be back in your ears tomorrow.

1002
00:51:34,034 --> 00:51:34,314
Speaker 1: Bye.

1003
00:51:40,914 --> 00:51:41,114
Speaker 2: Mama.

1004
00:51:41,194 --> 00:51:44,114
Speaker 3: Mayor acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which

1005
00:51:44,154 --> 00:51:45,554
Speaker 3: we have recorded this podcast.