1 00:00:11,149 --> 00:00:13,909 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:14,829 --> 00:00:17,869 Speaker 2: Mom and Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and 3 00:00:17,949 --> 00:00:20,069 Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded on. 4 00:00:20,269 --> 00:00:23,109 Speaker 3: Hello. I'm Stacy Hicks. I'm the editor of Mamma Mia 5 00:00:23,189 --> 00:00:25,629 Speaker 3: and I'm also the host of our new parenting podcast, 6 00:00:25,749 --> 00:00:29,149 Speaker 3: Parenting out Loud. And this summer, we're curating your listening 7 00:00:29,149 --> 00:00:32,189 Speaker 3: with a healthy dose of culture savvy conversations that parents 8 00:00:32,309 --> 00:00:36,229 Speaker 3: actually want. This holiday season, we're bringing you unmissable episodes 9 00:00:36,349 --> 00:00:39,829 Speaker 3: right here into your podcast playlist. It's your summer listening sorted. 10 00:00:40,229 --> 00:00:42,109 Speaker 3: And if you're looking for more to listen to, every 11 00:00:42,189 --> 00:00:45,069 Speaker 3: Muma Mia podcast is curating some are listening right across 12 00:00:45,109 --> 00:00:48,909 Speaker 3: the network, from pop culture to beauty to powerful interviews, 13 00:00:49,189 --> 00:00:51,629 Speaker 3: there's something for everyone. There's a link in the show notes. 14 00:00:57,909 --> 00:01:01,309 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Parenting out Loud. I'm Jesse Stevens 15 00:01:01,349 --> 00:01:04,389 Speaker 2: and I am joined by Amelia Lester, and we are 16 00:01:04,429 --> 00:01:07,109 Speaker 2: here to talk about some of the stories that dominated 17 00:01:07,349 --> 00:01:10,589 Speaker 2: the week, because if parents are thinking about it, we're 18 00:01:10,789 --> 00:01:12,749 Speaker 2: talking about it. Amerely are welcome. 19 00:01:13,109 --> 00:01:13,749 Speaker 1: Thanks Jesse. 20 00:01:14,229 --> 00:01:17,189 Speaker 2: I wanted to thank you because a lot of people 21 00:01:17,269 --> 00:01:19,469 Speaker 2: may know you as a fashionist stuff. I believe that 22 00:01:19,549 --> 00:01:23,429 Speaker 2: tree is the correct term. And you recommended to me 23 00:01:23,989 --> 00:01:28,709 Speaker 2: your Lulu Lemon fled pants. We both agreed that they 24 00:01:28,709 --> 00:01:30,909 Speaker 2: were an elevated active way. 25 00:01:30,829 --> 00:01:35,429 Speaker 1: Look an elevated pant the term that fashion is to 26 00:01:35,469 --> 00:01:38,109 Speaker 1: be used, and I bought them. 27 00:01:38,229 --> 00:01:40,149 Speaker 2: I went and found them, like, secondhand. 28 00:01:39,669 --> 00:01:41,269 Speaker 1: Are you wearing your elevated pants? 29 00:01:41,309 --> 00:01:42,669 Speaker 2: I feel so much. 30 00:01:43,909 --> 00:01:47,269 Speaker 1: They're so good because no one knows their leggings except you. 31 00:01:47,549 --> 00:01:49,589 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're my new uniform. 32 00:01:49,829 --> 00:01:53,229 Speaker 1: Like I feel so jem Z like how I'm like 33 00:01:53,309 --> 00:01:56,149 Speaker 1: Billie Eilish the same I feel she has them. 34 00:01:56,189 --> 00:01:58,709 Speaker 2: I'm so bad in them. I just just. 35 00:01:58,749 --> 00:02:00,989 Speaker 1: Mixed metaphors there, but let's go with it. 36 00:02:01,229 --> 00:02:04,429 Speaker 2: Infinitely cooler, So you are my cool guru. 37 00:02:05,389 --> 00:02:07,549 Speaker 1: People say that to me a lot, actually. 38 00:02:07,789 --> 00:02:10,109 Speaker 2: And on the show today, one of the most pervasive 39 00:02:10,269 --> 00:02:14,149 Speaker 2: pieces of parenting advice is making everyone feel bad about themselves. 40 00:02:14,429 --> 00:02:17,349 Speaker 2: We've solved the mystery of what happened to the family 41 00:02:17,349 --> 00:02:21,709 Speaker 2: dinner table. Plus Courtney Kardashian thinks school is dated, why 42 00:02:21,749 --> 00:02:25,869 Speaker 2: more kids are being homeschooled than ever before? And Skinny 43 00:02:25,909 --> 00:02:29,509 Speaker 2: Talk Amelia is here to explain the social media phenomenon 44 00:02:29,749 --> 00:02:31,709 Speaker 2: promoting a skinny lifestyle. 45 00:02:32,109 --> 00:02:35,269 Speaker 1: But first, in case you missed it. Kate Hudson has 46 00:02:35,349 --> 00:02:38,829 Speaker 1: revealed Mindy Kayling was back to work an hour after 47 00:02:38,869 --> 00:02:42,749 Speaker 1: giving birth, which made me feel bad. Hudson, who will 48 00:02:42,749 --> 00:02:45,269 Speaker 1: be forever almost famous to me and I'm assuming to 49 00:02:45,349 --> 00:02:48,509 Speaker 1: you too, Jesse, but is in fact, somehow now forty 50 00:02:48,549 --> 00:02:51,189 Speaker 1: six years old and has three children. She is on 51 00:02:51,229 --> 00:02:53,189 Speaker 1: a press tour with Mindy Kayling and they have a 52 00:02:53,189 --> 00:02:56,189 Speaker 1: new show on Netflix called Running Point. I had to 53 00:02:56,189 --> 00:02:58,309 Speaker 1: look up what this was about. It's apparently about a 54 00:02:58,349 --> 00:03:01,189 Speaker 1: reformed party girl put in charge of her family's pro 55 00:03:01,269 --> 00:03:02,189 Speaker 1: basketball team. 56 00:03:02,669 --> 00:03:04,669 Speaker 2: Apparently it's a lot of fun. It's like a female 57 00:03:04,709 --> 00:03:06,229 Speaker 2: ted Lasso. That's what I've had. 58 00:03:06,349 --> 00:03:08,869 Speaker 1: Okay, well, it's not an immediately interesting plot to me, 59 00:03:08,909 --> 00:03:10,789 Speaker 1: I had to admit. But I do like everything Mindy 60 00:03:10,869 --> 00:03:14,469 Speaker 1: Kayling does, and she co created the show. Anyway, Hudson said, 61 00:03:14,669 --> 00:03:16,989 Speaker 1: we had a script. She and Mindy at our first 62 00:03:17,029 --> 00:03:19,949 Speaker 1: table read. She's on zoom. Then she has a baby 63 00:03:19,989 --> 00:03:22,429 Speaker 1: and is sending notes like an hour after she has 64 00:03:22,469 --> 00:03:25,909 Speaker 1: the baby. I was like, isn't Mindy literally in labor? 65 00:03:26,469 --> 00:03:29,389 Speaker 1: She is a powerhouse and delivers what she's going to deliver. 66 00:03:29,589 --> 00:03:33,269 Speaker 1: Hudson continued, I want to unpack this with you, because 67 00:03:33,709 --> 00:03:35,909 Speaker 1: so Mindy Kayling is forty five, she has three children. 68 00:03:36,309 --> 00:03:39,269 Speaker 1: I don't have an issue with Mindy Kayling doing anything 69 00:03:39,309 --> 00:03:42,549 Speaker 1: an hour after giving birth. Godspeed to Mindy Kaling. She's 70 00:03:42,749 --> 00:03:46,749 Speaker 1: an amazing creative woman. But I think what I'm annoyed 71 00:03:46,749 --> 00:03:50,869 Speaker 1: about here is Kate Hudson lionizing the behavior. I think 72 00:03:50,909 --> 00:03:53,909 Speaker 1: that's what annoys me, because doesn't it just put pressure 73 00:03:53,949 --> 00:03:57,469 Speaker 1: on other women who have maybe less power, fewer financial 74 00:03:57,509 --> 00:04:00,429 Speaker 1: resources to immediately get back to work after having a 75 00:04:00,429 --> 00:04:01,709 Speaker 1: baby when they hear stuff like this. 76 00:04:02,029 --> 00:04:04,949 Speaker 2: Yeah right, I agree with you. I'm in two minds 77 00:04:04,989 --> 00:04:09,189 Speaker 2: about it, because, like you, I think a woman can do. 78 00:04:09,589 --> 00:04:11,909 Speaker 2: I was gonna say whatever she wants post birth probably 79 00:04:11,949 --> 00:04:14,029 Speaker 2: limits on that. I think that she can pick up 80 00:04:14,029 --> 00:04:16,509 Speaker 2: her phone if she wants, right, I've heard I remember 81 00:04:16,589 --> 00:04:19,549 Speaker 2: Roxy just saying co speaking years ago, she's had two babies, 82 00:04:19,629 --> 00:04:22,269 Speaker 2: and she joked that she took one hour maternity leave 83 00:04:22,309 --> 00:04:24,589 Speaker 2: and she said she checked her emails laying in the 84 00:04:24,589 --> 00:04:26,389 Speaker 2: hospital bed, and when she was sort of pressed on it, 85 00:04:26,429 --> 00:04:28,549 Speaker 2: she said, the baby was sleeping. I was going to 86 00:04:28,589 --> 00:04:30,029 Speaker 2: turn on the TV. I was gonna have a sleeper. 87 00:04:30,109 --> 00:04:31,909 Speaker 2: I was going to open my emails. And I chose that, 88 00:04:32,029 --> 00:04:34,709 Speaker 2: and she's a woman running her own business like you do. 89 00:04:34,869 --> 00:04:34,949 Speaker 1: You. 90 00:04:35,269 --> 00:04:38,069 Speaker 2: I actually find it really infantalizing when people tell women 91 00:04:38,309 --> 00:04:39,429 Speaker 2: what they can and can't do. 92 00:04:39,749 --> 00:04:39,949 Speaker 1: Yep. 93 00:04:40,629 --> 00:04:43,509 Speaker 2: But I agree that the pressure it then puts on 94 00:04:43,829 --> 00:04:47,909 Speaker 2: other mothers in particular, because let's not pretend like we 95 00:04:47,949 --> 00:04:51,189 Speaker 2: wouldn't have any issue really with a dad checking his 96 00:04:51,309 --> 00:04:53,869 Speaker 2: emails an hour or two birth, that doesn't have the same. 97 00:04:53,749 --> 00:04:55,629 Speaker 1: He's probably checking his emails during. 98 00:04:55,549 --> 00:04:58,069 Speaker 2: During birth, yep, just checking his slack, making sure there's 99 00:04:58,109 --> 00:05:02,869 Speaker 2: nothing urgent coming through. But women, I think we do 100 00:05:02,949 --> 00:05:06,269 Speaker 2: put this pressure on each other. I remember seeing this 101 00:05:06,389 --> 00:05:09,789 Speaker 2: imagery of a woman pumping in the boardroom and that 102 00:05:09,869 --> 00:05:12,069 Speaker 2: being like it was some image that was going around 103 00:05:12,109 --> 00:05:13,069 Speaker 2: and it's like working mother. 104 00:05:13,229 --> 00:05:15,349 Speaker 1: I feel like when I was growing up, that was 105 00:05:15,469 --> 00:05:17,829 Speaker 1: just sort of an image you saw every day. Yeah, 106 00:05:17,829 --> 00:05:19,629 Speaker 1: it was like in the nineties there was this say, 107 00:05:19,749 --> 00:05:23,469 Speaker 1: you have women in boardrooms pumping, yeah, with babies. 108 00:05:23,109 --> 00:05:26,309 Speaker 2: And I saw that and I felt furious because it 109 00:05:26,389 --> 00:05:28,389 Speaker 2: was like that, I don't want to be pumping in 110 00:05:28,389 --> 00:05:30,269 Speaker 2: a boardroom. I want to be at home with my baby. 111 00:05:30,349 --> 00:05:33,429 Speaker 2: And does that make me less ambitious or less hard working? 112 00:05:33,509 --> 00:05:37,589 Speaker 2: I think when it's used as a proxy for unshakable 113 00:05:37,629 --> 00:05:40,789 Speaker 2: work ethic. It's super, super dangerous because if there's ever 114 00:05:40,829 --> 00:05:44,429 Speaker 2: an excuse to not be on your emails, yeah, surely 115 00:05:44,509 --> 00:05:45,829 Speaker 2: it's when you've had a baby. 116 00:05:45,869 --> 00:05:50,349 Speaker 1: You've dislodged a memory deep within me of a cover 117 00:05:50,589 --> 00:05:53,789 Speaker 1: of a magazine with Rachel McAdams pumping. 118 00:05:53,989 --> 00:05:55,189 Speaker 2: Oh, I remember that. 119 00:05:55,829 --> 00:05:58,629 Speaker 1: Now there's also been covers. For instance, Australian l I 120 00:05:58,629 --> 00:06:00,549 Speaker 1: think was a world leader in a cover with a 121 00:06:00,589 --> 00:06:04,469 Speaker 1: woman breastfeeding. So I guess I shouldn't have an issue 122 00:06:04,469 --> 00:06:07,909 Speaker 1: with the Rachel McAdams pumping cover. It's certainly not anything prudish. 123 00:06:08,029 --> 00:06:11,349 Speaker 1: But again it's the sense of why are you multitasking? 124 00:06:11,949 --> 00:06:15,629 Speaker 1: Because now I have to multitask. Isn't it enough to 125 00:06:15,749 --> 00:06:17,549 Speaker 1: just do one thing at a time. 126 00:06:17,749 --> 00:06:20,349 Speaker 2: And the thing with pumping is that it's always it's 127 00:06:20,349 --> 00:06:22,869 Speaker 2: always spilling, and you're always running, like that's the imagery 128 00:06:22,909 --> 00:06:27,149 Speaker 2: of the pumping that it's like, now you're not physically bound, 129 00:06:27,669 --> 00:06:28,989 Speaker 2: you too can do a marriage. 130 00:06:29,069 --> 00:06:32,389 Speaker 1: Sorry, do you not run when you pump? That's weird, Jessie. 131 00:06:32,789 --> 00:06:36,109 Speaker 2: It's like if you do want to sit down, it's lazy. 132 00:06:36,149 --> 00:06:38,549 Speaker 2: And I looked at this story and I even looked 133 00:06:38,549 --> 00:06:40,709 Speaker 2: at Roxy a little bit more closely, and I thought, 134 00:06:41,229 --> 00:06:44,589 Speaker 2: I don't know if anyone here is actually telling us 135 00:06:45,029 --> 00:06:49,349 Speaker 2: that this is aspirational. But there is this sensitivity when 136 00:06:49,349 --> 00:06:53,069 Speaker 2: it comes to anything motherhood that we internalize it, that 137 00:06:53,109 --> 00:06:55,709 Speaker 2: we immediately go, You've just made me feel bad. 138 00:06:55,549 --> 00:06:58,709 Speaker 1: And specifically the competition element, like this is probably my 139 00:06:58,869 --> 00:07:01,429 Speaker 1: problem more than it is Kate Hudson's. Yeah, yeah, I 140 00:07:01,429 --> 00:07:04,309 Speaker 1: should understand that what Mindy Kayling does after birth has 141 00:07:04,349 --> 00:07:08,069 Speaker 1: nothing to do with me, and yet we're always implicitly comparing. 142 00:07:08,749 --> 00:07:12,549 Speaker 2: One of the most pervasive pieces of parenting advice is 143 00:07:12,629 --> 00:07:14,869 Speaker 2: making people feel bad about themselves, and it's got to 144 00:07:14,869 --> 00:07:17,989 Speaker 2: do with the dinner table. Eating dinner as a family 145 00:07:18,269 --> 00:07:21,749 Speaker 2: is seen as a cornerstone of good parenting. According to 146 00:07:21,789 --> 00:07:25,549 Speaker 2: an article published in Slate last month, research has linked 147 00:07:25,549 --> 00:07:30,549 Speaker 2: the practice too better nutrition, improved academic performance, decreased depression, anxiety, 148 00:07:30,589 --> 00:07:34,509 Speaker 2: and kids improve communication. I could go on, but the 149 00:07:34,549 --> 00:07:37,709 Speaker 2: author of this article, her name is Dawn t says 150 00:07:37,789 --> 00:07:41,269 Speaker 2: that in reality, most families just can't make it work. 151 00:07:41,669 --> 00:07:46,149 Speaker 2: In Australia, less than half of families currently eat together Amelia, 152 00:07:46,349 --> 00:07:49,069 Speaker 2: Why do you think this is on the surface it 153 00:07:49,069 --> 00:07:50,629 Speaker 2: looks like a relatively simple thing to do. 154 00:07:51,589 --> 00:07:55,669 Speaker 1: I think, Jessie, that this is a real estate story. 155 00:07:55,869 --> 00:07:58,669 Speaker 1: In what way let me unpack this? Do people even 156 00:07:58,789 --> 00:08:02,389 Speaker 1: have dining room tables anymore? And aren't they doubling mostly 157 00:08:02,509 --> 00:08:04,509 Speaker 1: as laundry rooms or is that just me? 158 00:08:04,829 --> 00:08:08,349 Speaker 2: I had my first dining table when I moved into 159 00:08:08,349 --> 00:08:10,469 Speaker 2: a home two months before we had lunar and my 160 00:08:10,629 --> 00:08:12,789 Speaker 2: twin sister did not have a dining table for the 161 00:08:12,829 --> 00:08:15,149 Speaker 2: first year of her baby's life. 162 00:08:15,229 --> 00:08:17,309 Speaker 1: So did you grow up sitting around the dining room table? 163 00:08:17,429 --> 00:08:17,669 Speaker 3: Yeah? 164 00:08:17,869 --> 00:08:22,949 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I was reading about Actually, they surveyed a 165 00:08:22,989 --> 00:08:25,149 Speaker 2: bunch of millennials about whether you grew up in a 166 00:08:25,189 --> 00:08:27,709 Speaker 2: house or an apartment, and the overwhelming majority was a house. 167 00:08:27,749 --> 00:08:30,309 Speaker 2: Not necessarily a big house, not necessarily in a city. 168 00:08:30,629 --> 00:08:33,469 Speaker 2: But there was a house, which meant you had a backyard, 169 00:08:34,029 --> 00:08:37,789 Speaker 2: It meant you didn't have super close neighbors who were 170 00:08:37,789 --> 00:08:42,589 Speaker 2: maybe sensitive to yelling and crying. And now the percentage 171 00:08:42,869 --> 00:08:46,149 Speaker 2: because of high density living in cities, I believe it's 172 00:08:46,189 --> 00:08:47,389 Speaker 2: gone through the roof. 173 00:08:47,829 --> 00:08:51,069 Speaker 1: Yeah. An SPS story basically summed it up with the 174 00:08:51,109 --> 00:08:54,069 Speaker 1: headline raised in a house, but parenting in an apartment. 175 00:08:54,229 --> 00:08:57,949 Speaker 1: That is the experience. It's certainly my experience, and just 176 00:08:58,029 --> 00:08:59,749 Speaker 1: to throw some numbers at you because I thought they 177 00:08:59,789 --> 00:09:02,389 Speaker 1: were really interesting. The number of families with children and 178 00:09:02,429 --> 00:09:06,189 Speaker 1: apartments has increased by fifty six percent from twenty eleven. 179 00:09:06,549 --> 00:09:09,629 Speaker 1: Wh okay, yeah, and then one in five apartments now 180 00:09:09,749 --> 00:09:14,029 Speaker 1: are occupied by a family with children. Certainly, anecdotally, almost 181 00:09:14,109 --> 00:09:17,589 Speaker 1: everyone I know lives in an apartment and yet grew 182 00:09:17,669 --> 00:09:18,309 Speaker 1: up in a house. 183 00:09:18,389 --> 00:09:21,869 Speaker 2: But apartments fundamentally are not built for families. They're not well. 184 00:09:21,989 --> 00:09:23,909 Speaker 1: This is what I need to get on my high 185 00:09:23,949 --> 00:09:26,909 Speaker 1: horse about. I think even though Australians are now living 186 00:09:26,949 --> 00:09:29,789 Speaker 1: more and more in apartments and raising children in apartments, 187 00:09:29,829 --> 00:09:32,189 Speaker 1: I don't think that culturally we've caught up with this. 188 00:09:32,389 --> 00:09:35,149 Speaker 1: And I want to mention one particular aspect that you 189 00:09:35,229 --> 00:09:38,149 Speaker 1: touched on before. I think noise is a real issue. 190 00:09:38,189 --> 00:09:40,709 Speaker 1: So I live in an apartment with two kids, and 191 00:09:40,789 --> 00:09:45,189 Speaker 1: I've noticed that I'm not the most popular resident of 192 00:09:45,189 --> 00:09:47,709 Speaker 1: the apartment building. I think that's safe to say. I 193 00:09:47,749 --> 00:09:49,549 Speaker 1: don't think any of them listen to this, and I 194 00:09:49,589 --> 00:09:51,949 Speaker 1: don't think that I need to worry about them being offended. 195 00:09:51,989 --> 00:09:54,509 Speaker 1: I just don't think they like us living in the 196 00:09:54,549 --> 00:09:58,229 Speaker 1: apartment very much. Can talk about the various microaggressions, but 197 00:09:58,309 --> 00:10:00,869 Speaker 1: this is not time for my real estate gripes. It's 198 00:10:00,869 --> 00:10:02,469 Speaker 1: not just in my head, because it turns out a 199 00:10:02,469 --> 00:10:06,469 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen study found that Australians correlate being a good 200 00:10:06,509 --> 00:10:09,269 Speaker 1: neighbor with being a quiet neighbor, which fair enough, I 201 00:10:09,309 --> 00:10:11,869 Speaker 1: get it, Yeah quite yea. They're probably better on balance 202 00:10:11,909 --> 00:10:14,829 Speaker 1: than loud neighbors. But also the survey found that people 203 00:10:14,909 --> 00:10:17,669 Speaker 1: think that children shouldn't be the norm in apartments. They 204 00:10:17,669 --> 00:10:20,069 Speaker 1: think that there shouldn't be noise from children in apartments. 205 00:10:20,109 --> 00:10:23,549 Speaker 1: And so how this changes my parenting is that I'm 206 00:10:23,549 --> 00:10:26,869 Speaker 1: constantly telling my children to speak less loudly. The net 207 00:10:26,909 --> 00:10:29,229 Speaker 1: result is that they actually play less. They certainly horse 208 00:10:29,229 --> 00:10:32,229 Speaker 1: play less because that's very loud. And often if I'm 209 00:10:32,269 --> 00:10:34,429 Speaker 1: really stressed out about the volume, I'll just turn on 210 00:10:34,469 --> 00:10:36,669 Speaker 1: the TV because then I know they won't be screaming 211 00:10:36,669 --> 00:10:39,589 Speaker 1: and running through the apartment playing tip And I think 212 00:10:39,589 --> 00:10:41,509 Speaker 1: that we're seeing the same thing with the dinner table idea. 213 00:10:41,509 --> 00:10:45,109 Speaker 1: We're constantly told that you'll only raise good conversation as 214 00:10:45,109 --> 00:10:47,469 Speaker 1: if you sit down at the dinner table, and certainly 215 00:10:47,549 --> 00:10:49,469 Speaker 1: I was raised sitting at the dinner table watching the 216 00:10:49,469 --> 00:10:52,309 Speaker 1: news every night. I cannot imagine subjecting my children to 217 00:10:52,309 --> 00:10:54,429 Speaker 1: the news in this day and age. But the idea 218 00:10:54,549 --> 00:10:57,349 Speaker 1: of that's what makes you a good parent is grounded 219 00:10:57,429 --> 00:11:01,149 Speaker 1: in an assumption that people are living in houses, not flats. 220 00:11:01,509 --> 00:11:04,829 Speaker 2: Exactly right, And I suppose as well, the difference from 221 00:11:04,869 --> 00:11:08,549 Speaker 2: parenting in an apartment is a necessity every single day 222 00:11:08,589 --> 00:11:11,149 Speaker 2: to get out of the house. There is no like 223 00:11:11,229 --> 00:11:14,789 Speaker 2: they talk about how important it is to know, not supervise, 224 00:11:14,869 --> 00:11:18,589 Speaker 2: and to let kids sort of play and explore. When 225 00:11:18,629 --> 00:11:21,069 Speaker 2: you've got an apartment that's for square meters, there isn't 226 00:11:21,069 --> 00:11:23,549 Speaker 2: a lot of places to explore. And I was reading 227 00:11:23,589 --> 00:11:27,389 Speaker 2: about how in Singapore, for example, they open up public 228 00:11:27,429 --> 00:11:30,909 Speaker 2: schools after school hours and stuff so that parents because 229 00:11:31,069 --> 00:11:33,149 Speaker 2: let's not pretend like Australia is the only place with 230 00:11:33,229 --> 00:11:36,989 Speaker 2: high density living right like France, China, Singapore is one 231 00:11:36,989 --> 00:11:40,829 Speaker 2: of them, and so they've found ways to make communal 232 00:11:40,829 --> 00:11:43,549 Speaker 2: green space where people can go out and play. And 233 00:11:43,669 --> 00:11:47,989 Speaker 2: Australia or the cities, it really depends on your suburit. 234 00:11:48,349 --> 00:11:50,989 Speaker 1: This was something that really surprised me when I moved 235 00:11:51,029 --> 00:11:53,549 Speaker 1: back to Australia last year after many years in the US. 236 00:11:53,709 --> 00:11:57,749 Speaker 1: Public schools in the US routinely are open after school, 237 00:11:57,749 --> 00:12:00,709 Speaker 1: before school, and on the weekends they're just not closed 238 00:12:00,909 --> 00:12:02,749 Speaker 1: so you can take your kid in and play on 239 00:12:02,749 --> 00:12:05,789 Speaker 1: the playground equipment. Here, I was shocked by this notion 240 00:12:05,909 --> 00:12:08,669 Speaker 1: that when school ends, the gates close and you can't 241 00:12:08,749 --> 00:12:11,469 Speaker 1: use the playground, and that feels like a waste of 242 00:12:11,509 --> 00:12:14,469 Speaker 1: space because you've got all these areas for kids to play. 243 00:12:14,509 --> 00:12:17,029 Speaker 1: And it also again feels like it's a relic from 244 00:12:17,069 --> 00:12:19,709 Speaker 1: a time when kids went home from school and maybe 245 00:12:19,749 --> 00:12:22,109 Speaker 1: frolicked around the yard like chickens. We don't have a 246 00:12:22,229 --> 00:12:22,989 Speaker 1: yard now. 247 00:12:22,829 --> 00:12:25,029 Speaker 2: Most people don't. It makes a really big difference. But 248 00:12:25,109 --> 00:12:28,709 Speaker 2: back to the dinner table example, I think even people 249 00:12:28,989 --> 00:12:31,949 Speaker 2: who live in homes or who do have dining tables, 250 00:12:31,989 --> 00:12:33,909 Speaker 2: and I think the apartment thing is that open it's 251 00:12:33,949 --> 00:12:36,229 Speaker 2: too small for a dining table, or they've got like 252 00:12:36,349 --> 00:12:39,509 Speaker 2: built in benches, so the bench is kind of the hub. 253 00:12:39,869 --> 00:12:42,269 Speaker 2: But I think the way our homes have changed is 254 00:12:42,269 --> 00:12:44,309 Speaker 2: that the centerpiece of the house is now the living 255 00:12:44,389 --> 00:12:47,789 Speaker 2: room with a television. So true, and so screens have 256 00:12:48,389 --> 00:12:51,629 Speaker 2: stolen the time that we would ordinarily sit around and 257 00:12:51,949 --> 00:12:55,949 Speaker 2: have a chat. Maybe and that's not like we don't 258 00:12:56,069 --> 00:12:59,469 Speaker 2: value that as much, or because we are living in smaller, 259 00:12:59,549 --> 00:13:03,949 Speaker 2: smaller places, the dining table has become a place with 260 00:13:04,069 --> 00:13:05,349 Speaker 2: just a lot of crap on it. So it could 261 00:13:05,349 --> 00:13:07,949 Speaker 2: be where you work during the day, if you're working remotely, 262 00:13:07,989 --> 00:13:10,949 Speaker 2: it could be homework. It could be lawn because I 263 00:13:10,949 --> 00:13:13,949 Speaker 2: don't have a laundry, like we have to put it somewhere. 264 00:13:14,549 --> 00:13:16,629 Speaker 2: The other thing I thought, Amelia, and I wanted to 265 00:13:16,629 --> 00:13:18,869 Speaker 2: know whether you feel the same when I now picture 266 00:13:18,949 --> 00:13:21,869 Speaker 2: a family sitting around at dinner table, do you see 267 00:13:21,869 --> 00:13:26,109 Speaker 2: that as class coded because I see it as a 268 00:13:26,189 --> 00:13:30,709 Speaker 2: sign of money. Yes, Like because you've got both parents 269 00:13:30,749 --> 00:13:33,509 Speaker 2: at home at six pm, which is I would say 270 00:13:33,509 --> 00:13:35,829 Speaker 2: pretty rare. You've got someone who's made the meal, but 271 00:13:35,949 --> 00:13:39,469 Speaker 2: four six pm, or maybe you've got help who's made 272 00:13:39,629 --> 00:13:43,069 Speaker 2: the meal. But when I see that image, I go, oh, 273 00:13:43,189 --> 00:13:45,589 Speaker 2: that's become really loaded with class for me. 274 00:13:45,749 --> 00:13:49,189 Speaker 1: You're so right, because there's a fundamental physics problem in 275 00:13:49,589 --> 00:13:53,229 Speaker 1: getting a hot meal on a table at the time 276 00:13:53,309 --> 00:13:56,069 Speaker 1: that children want to eat it, when we're all working 277 00:13:56,349 --> 00:13:58,229 Speaker 1: around the clock. How does that work? 278 00:13:58,469 --> 00:14:00,189 Speaker 2: I don't know. It's like an impossible equation. 279 00:14:00,349 --> 00:14:03,309 Speaker 1: And so this idea of having the space for the 280 00:14:03,389 --> 00:14:07,149 Speaker 1: dining room table, having the parents who have divided the 281 00:14:07,349 --> 00:14:10,829 Speaker 1: labor of such that someone's made the meal or they, 282 00:14:11,029 --> 00:14:13,989 Speaker 1: as you say, assigned that to someone else, and then 283 00:14:14,349 --> 00:14:16,789 Speaker 1: having you all sit around the table. Yeah, it does 284 00:14:16,829 --> 00:14:18,829 Speaker 1: feel like a luxury in this day and age. But 285 00:14:18,909 --> 00:14:21,069 Speaker 1: I wonder do you think we should be worried about 286 00:14:21,109 --> 00:14:24,069 Speaker 1: this or do you think that the studies themselves are 287 00:14:24,109 --> 00:14:25,269 Speaker 1: kind of caught in the past. 288 00:14:25,709 --> 00:14:28,389 Speaker 2: Look, I think ideally it would be really good for us. 289 00:14:28,469 --> 00:14:32,349 Speaker 2: I think it would because in terms of nutrition and mindfulness, 290 00:14:32,349 --> 00:14:34,629 Speaker 2: when you're eating, it is better to not be looking 291 00:14:34,669 --> 00:14:36,549 Speaker 2: at a screen. I say, this is someone who often 292 00:14:36,589 --> 00:14:38,989 Speaker 2: eats in front of a screen. And the second thing 293 00:14:39,069 --> 00:14:44,269 Speaker 2: is I was reading about how evolutionarily we tend to 294 00:14:44,509 --> 00:14:47,589 Speaker 2: trust people we eat with. It's like a programmed thing. 295 00:14:47,829 --> 00:14:51,589 Speaker 2: That's like there's a sense of connection we feel equal to. 296 00:14:52,149 --> 00:14:56,189 Speaker 2: It is hardwired into us that something social happens when 297 00:14:56,189 --> 00:14:58,269 Speaker 2: we eat, Like, for example, if you're doing a business 298 00:14:58,269 --> 00:15:00,949 Speaker 2: negotiation you have snacks on the table, it's more likely 299 00:15:00,989 --> 00:15:04,309 Speaker 2: to go well. So that's hardwired into us. And I 300 00:15:04,309 --> 00:15:06,629 Speaker 2: think that that connection even growing up. I think they're 301 00:15:06,669 --> 00:15:08,909 Speaker 2: some of my favorite memories, So I keep going. I'll 302 00:15:08,949 --> 00:15:12,229 Speaker 2: do it eventually, I'll do it eventually. It's aspirational, it's 303 00:15:12,269 --> 00:15:16,589 Speaker 2: a work in progress. Courtney cutashi In, the forty six 304 00:15:16,709 --> 00:15:19,909 Speaker 2: year old reality star and mum of four biological children 305 00:15:19,949 --> 00:15:23,189 Speaker 2: and two step kids, says going to school is dated 306 00:15:23,669 --> 00:15:24,629 Speaker 2: and let me explain. 307 00:15:25,549 --> 00:15:25,669 Speaker 1: So. 308 00:15:25,709 --> 00:15:28,709 Speaker 2: She was recently on her sister Chloe's podcast and said 309 00:15:28,749 --> 00:15:32,229 Speaker 2: she has a rebel streak that includes questioning the purpose 310 00:15:32,269 --> 00:15:35,349 Speaker 2: of sending her kids to school. Apparently, her kids started 311 00:15:35,429 --> 00:15:38,909 Speaker 2: sending her videos of successful people. She didn't quantify that. 312 00:15:38,949 --> 00:15:41,189 Speaker 2: I don't know what her definition is. I'm going to 313 00:15:41,229 --> 00:15:44,149 Speaker 2: say that's coded for rich saying that their kids will 314 00:15:44,189 --> 00:15:47,309 Speaker 2: never go to school. And when she really grappled with 315 00:15:47,349 --> 00:15:50,709 Speaker 2: what the goal was, she agreed that it was unnecessary 316 00:15:50,749 --> 00:15:55,389 Speaker 2: and decided to homeschool, and Chloe enthusiastically agreed. Now, there 317 00:15:55,429 --> 00:15:58,869 Speaker 2: are a myriad of reasons why you at homeschool your children. 318 00:15:59,189 --> 00:16:02,549 Speaker 2: But Amelia, do you think it's possible that Courtney just 319 00:16:02,589 --> 00:16:04,509 Speaker 2: got played by her kids who didn't want to go 320 00:16:04,549 --> 00:16:05,349 Speaker 2: to school next week? 321 00:16:05,509 --> 00:16:08,189 Speaker 1: I am intrigued by this notion of the videos of 322 00:16:08,269 --> 00:16:13,149 Speaker 1: successful people their kids will never go to school. Look, 323 00:16:13,189 --> 00:16:15,469 Speaker 1: I think This is part of a trend that has 324 00:16:15,509 --> 00:16:19,029 Speaker 1: come out of the US post COVID, and I'm actually 325 00:16:19,069 --> 00:16:22,669 Speaker 1: surprised that this trend has taken so long to make waves. Basically, 326 00:16:22,949 --> 00:16:26,069 Speaker 1: I think that as society becomes less equal, as the 327 00:16:26,229 --> 00:16:28,949 Speaker 1: very rich become not just very rich, but sort of 328 00:16:28,989 --> 00:16:33,389 Speaker 1: gluttonously extravagantly rich, there's no wonder they've decided school is 329 00:16:33,429 --> 00:16:36,509 Speaker 1: not for them. School is a fundamental leveling field. It's 330 00:16:36,509 --> 00:16:39,029 Speaker 1: a place where all children are meant to go to 331 00:16:39,109 --> 00:16:41,749 Speaker 1: learn the same things. And it's actually surprising that we've 332 00:16:41,749 --> 00:16:44,509 Speaker 1: managed to hold on to this kind of egalitarian institution 333 00:16:44,629 --> 00:16:47,629 Speaker 1: for as long as we have in such a stratified society. 334 00:16:47,949 --> 00:16:50,589 Speaker 2: So, in Courtney's defense, does it kind of not matter 335 00:16:50,629 --> 00:16:53,309 Speaker 2: if her kids go to school? Like for the rest 336 00:16:53,349 --> 00:16:56,029 Speaker 2: of us, it does matter because it is a great equalizer. 337 00:16:56,429 --> 00:17:00,189 Speaker 2: But if you are the child of Kourtney Kardashian, maybe 338 00:17:00,229 --> 00:17:02,549 Speaker 2: you don't need that, Maybe you don't need that background. 339 00:17:02,629 --> 00:17:04,989 Speaker 1: Well, now that we have this phrase generational wealth in 340 00:17:05,069 --> 00:17:07,909 Speaker 1: the language, I guess it doesn't really matter from a 341 00:17:08,389 --> 00:17:11,629 Speaker 1: financial perspective. But I think that once the rich start 342 00:17:11,709 --> 00:17:14,789 Speaker 1: pulling their kids from school, the institution starts to crumble. 343 00:17:14,829 --> 00:17:17,509 Speaker 1: I'm very worried about this. We've seen it also in 344 00:17:17,549 --> 00:17:20,549 Speaker 1: the US with the way that Silicon Valley has rejected 345 00:17:20,549 --> 00:17:23,749 Speaker 1: the idea of higher education and of university. They've decided 346 00:17:23,749 --> 00:17:26,429 Speaker 1: that you don't need to go to university at all, 347 00:17:26,589 --> 00:17:29,589 Speaker 1: no matter what. It's a waste of time, it's indoctrinating 348 00:17:29,629 --> 00:17:32,669 Speaker 1: you and certain sort of center left ideological beliefs that 349 00:17:32,709 --> 00:17:35,589 Speaker 1: they don't approve of now they've come for school. It's 350 00:17:35,629 --> 00:17:36,989 Speaker 1: all part of the same movement. 351 00:17:37,229 --> 00:17:41,869 Speaker 2: There's obviously been this widespread rejection of institutions, some of 352 00:17:41,909 --> 00:17:45,149 Speaker 2: it which is really understandable, for example the Catholic Church 353 00:17:45,269 --> 00:17:49,269 Speaker 2: that have been criticized, and understandably people are moving away. 354 00:17:49,749 --> 00:17:56,269 Speaker 2: But there's also this rejection of education, of the scientific method, 355 00:17:56,909 --> 00:18:02,149 Speaker 2: of academia, of studies, of any sort of rigor to 356 00:18:02,669 --> 00:18:05,069 Speaker 2: the ideas that we put forward. And I wonder if 357 00:18:05,109 --> 00:18:07,829 Speaker 2: this is the beginning of the end in terms of 358 00:18:07,869 --> 00:18:10,829 Speaker 2: any sort of Enlightenment ideals. It is it's worth reading 359 00:18:10,829 --> 00:18:13,949 Speaker 2: what other people say so that you can evolve how 360 00:18:13,989 --> 00:18:14,469 Speaker 2: you'd think. 361 00:18:14,549 --> 00:18:17,749 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fundamentally anti intellectual, and I think that what 362 00:18:18,029 --> 00:18:19,909 Speaker 1: is of a piece with it is the Robert F. 363 00:18:19,989 --> 00:18:24,029 Speaker 1: Kennedy make America Healthy Again movement. This idea that the 364 00:18:24,109 --> 00:18:27,789 Speaker 1: scientists might say that vaccines are worthwhile and that fluoride 365 00:18:27,989 --> 00:18:31,229 Speaker 1: makes your teams stronger, but what do they know. I'm 366 00:18:31,309 --> 00:18:35,429 Speaker 1: sure that Courtney Kardashian is sympathetic to that kind of 367 00:18:35,549 --> 00:18:38,829 Speaker 1: quasi scientific thinking as well. It's really a rejection not 368 00:18:38,909 --> 00:18:40,989 Speaker 1: just of education, but of expertise. 369 00:18:41,429 --> 00:18:44,509 Speaker 2: Yes, and the rejection of that expertise doesn't hurt the 370 00:18:44,549 --> 00:18:47,789 Speaker 2: Courtney Kardashians. It hurts the people who don't get the 371 00:18:47,869 --> 00:18:52,709 Speaker 2: vaccination and have comobidities and are black or Hispanic and 372 00:18:52,949 --> 00:18:55,269 Speaker 2: have you know a number of things that would make 373 00:18:55,309 --> 00:18:58,989 Speaker 2: them particularly vulnerable to an illness, right, And that's what 374 00:18:59,109 --> 00:19:03,229 Speaker 2: I think. Hearing her talk about that, I agree, made 375 00:19:03,269 --> 00:19:06,869 Speaker 2: me worried. And I agree as well that this has 376 00:19:06,909 --> 00:19:09,429 Speaker 2: a lot to do with the pandemic because in Australia, 377 00:19:09,469 --> 00:19:13,789 Speaker 2: if you look at homeschooling rates, absenteeism, which we should 378 00:19:13,829 --> 00:19:16,549 Speaker 2: say are not the same thing, but absenteeism school refusal, 379 00:19:17,309 --> 00:19:22,269 Speaker 2: they've gone through the roof, and experts have said they 380 00:19:22,389 --> 00:19:26,989 Speaker 2: think that COVID made parents see schooling as something that 381 00:19:27,029 --> 00:19:29,789 Speaker 2: could be done from home. So in the same way 382 00:19:29,789 --> 00:19:32,669 Speaker 2: that working from home became something all employees went, well, 383 00:19:32,669 --> 00:19:35,709 Speaker 2: it's possible, you just sent us home. If they saw 384 00:19:35,749 --> 00:19:37,909 Speaker 2: that as something that worked for them or was even 385 00:19:37,949 --> 00:19:41,069 Speaker 2: a possibility, then suddenly you've got literally there are more 386 00:19:41,069 --> 00:19:43,589 Speaker 2: Australians being homeschool than ever before. And they say that's 387 00:19:43,589 --> 00:19:47,549 Speaker 2: a result of things like bullying, of obviously the increase 388 00:19:47,589 --> 00:19:50,149 Speaker 2: in tech that it can be done, and also of 389 00:19:50,389 --> 00:19:53,469 Speaker 2: safety like them not feeling safe at school, which I 390 00:19:53,509 --> 00:19:58,349 Speaker 2: think is everyone's prerogative. And also homeschooling is a lot 391 00:19:58,429 --> 00:20:01,989 Speaker 2: higher among people with an autism diagnosis or an ADHD diagnosis. 392 00:20:02,069 --> 00:20:03,829 Speaker 2: Maybe there's also a discussion to be had about the 393 00:20:03,829 --> 00:20:07,589 Speaker 2: failings of some schools to cater to those diverse needs. 394 00:20:07,389 --> 00:20:11,109 Speaker 1: And specifically the underfunding of public educ around the country 395 00:20:11,149 --> 00:20:14,029 Speaker 1: as well. I've heard similar things from friends in the US. 396 00:20:14,069 --> 00:20:16,909 Speaker 1: I have a friend in a US state that is 397 00:20:17,029 --> 00:20:22,069 Speaker 1: very religious and she has to homeschool her child because 398 00:20:22,109 --> 00:20:24,629 Speaker 1: they do not have a lot of schools to choose 399 00:20:24,629 --> 00:20:28,069 Speaker 1: from around and her child has many additional needs that 400 00:20:28,749 --> 00:20:30,909 Speaker 1: the local schools were just not really able to meet. 401 00:20:31,349 --> 00:20:35,029 Speaker 1: So they made the decision to hire a private tutor 402 00:20:35,109 --> 00:20:38,669 Speaker 1: and homeschool their child. When she went to the local 403 00:20:38,949 --> 00:20:42,789 Speaker 1: town office to put in the application to homeschool. She 404 00:20:42,949 --> 00:20:45,669 Speaker 1: was shocked by how easy it was to say that 405 00:20:45,669 --> 00:20:48,349 Speaker 1: you're going to homeschool your child, and how little supervision 406 00:20:49,029 --> 00:20:51,829 Speaker 1: was applied to this process. So she basically filled in 407 00:20:51,869 --> 00:20:55,389 Speaker 1: a one page form that asked her very little about 408 00:20:55,389 --> 00:20:57,349 Speaker 1: what she was going to teach, didn't provide her with 409 00:20:57,389 --> 00:21:01,189 Speaker 1: any resources visa v curriculum or anything else. She essentially 410 00:21:01,229 --> 00:21:03,429 Speaker 1: just had to say, I want to homeschool my child. 411 00:21:03,509 --> 00:21:05,469 Speaker 1: I don't need to tell you the reasons, and then 412 00:21:05,669 --> 00:21:09,149 Speaker 1: got approved for it. And it was really viscerally upsetting 413 00:21:09,149 --> 00:21:11,429 Speaker 1: to her because while she she's going to be making 414 00:21:11,469 --> 00:21:15,149 Speaker 1: sure that her child is meeting the state curriculum requirements 415 00:21:15,189 --> 00:21:17,309 Speaker 1: and has been in a position where she can hire 416 00:21:17,309 --> 00:21:19,669 Speaker 1: a tutor who she feels really confident in that can 417 00:21:19,789 --> 00:21:22,949 Speaker 1: educate her child properly, there are many people in this 418 00:21:23,029 --> 00:21:27,949 Speaker 1: state who clearly have parents who are not necessarily trying 419 00:21:27,949 --> 00:21:30,629 Speaker 1: to check all those boxes and are doing it because 420 00:21:30,629 --> 00:21:33,149 Speaker 1: they don't want them to be exposed to a mainstream 421 00:21:33,229 --> 00:21:36,309 Speaker 1: school curriculum. And that's really concerning to me. 422 00:21:36,509 --> 00:21:39,789 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I agree, And that speaks to the Courtney 423 00:21:39,869 --> 00:21:43,709 Speaker 2: Kardashian example too, because I don't think any of us 424 00:21:43,709 --> 00:21:45,589 Speaker 2: would imagine that Courtney is going to sit at home 425 00:21:45,629 --> 00:21:48,149 Speaker 2: and teach maths. Like that's access to a private tutor, 426 00:21:48,309 --> 00:21:51,749 Speaker 2: which is again like something that's on offer to some 427 00:21:51,949 --> 00:21:55,229 Speaker 2: families and not to others. Right, another thing that I've 428 00:21:55,269 --> 00:21:59,469 Speaker 2: heard everyone in my family teaches, and both my parents 429 00:21:59,549 --> 00:22:03,749 Speaker 2: spoke about an enormous rise in this school refusal phenomenon 430 00:22:03,829 --> 00:22:07,389 Speaker 2: after COVID. It's been almost rebranded by some people in 431 00:22:07,429 --> 00:22:11,869 Speaker 2: the space as school can't because they say refusal suggests 432 00:22:12,149 --> 00:22:14,429 Speaker 2: they're making a decision, and these are kids who cannot 433 00:22:14,509 --> 00:22:18,549 Speaker 2: go to school, and so all these psychologists are trying 434 00:22:18,589 --> 00:22:20,349 Speaker 2: to work out what to do because in Australia you 435 00:22:20,429 --> 00:22:22,549 Speaker 2: have to go to school, like there are repercussions and 436 00:22:22,589 --> 00:22:24,789 Speaker 2: the school has to get involved, and it can be 437 00:22:24,829 --> 00:22:27,949 Speaker 2: really complicated. I would look at these stories and kind 438 00:22:27,989 --> 00:22:30,229 Speaker 2: of go all right, there were days I didn't want 439 00:22:30,269 --> 00:22:32,109 Speaker 2: to go to school either, Like I didn't have a 440 00:22:32,149 --> 00:22:34,709 Speaker 2: lot of empathy for it. And Dad told me this 441 00:22:34,829 --> 00:22:37,949 Speaker 2: story about a kid, the poor mother just putting the 442 00:22:38,029 --> 00:22:40,229 Speaker 2: kid in the car and dads standing there and the 443 00:22:40,269 --> 00:22:42,869 Speaker 2: mother just trying to pull him by his ankles and 444 00:22:42,869 --> 00:22:44,589 Speaker 2: being like you have to go to school. This is 445 00:22:44,629 --> 00:22:48,149 Speaker 2: so important, and the kid just couldn't, like, couldn't go 446 00:22:48,229 --> 00:22:49,429 Speaker 2: into the classroom. 447 00:22:49,549 --> 00:22:50,789 Speaker 1: This is a post COVID story. 448 00:22:50,829 --> 00:22:54,349 Speaker 2: This is a post COVID story. And the numbers nearly 449 00:22:54,429 --> 00:22:57,109 Speaker 2: half of all students missed ten percent of school in 450 00:22:57,109 --> 00:23:01,229 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, so that's actually quite a lot. The 451 00:23:01,269 --> 00:23:06,509 Speaker 2: sick days thing is becoming more and more prominent, which 452 00:23:06,549 --> 00:23:09,029 Speaker 2: I guess is probably to do with screens, but again 453 00:23:09,709 --> 00:23:13,429 Speaker 2: the idea that it's optional. When something becomes optional as well, 454 00:23:13,469 --> 00:23:16,749 Speaker 2: then I suppose you go. I'm not going to go today. 455 00:23:17,069 --> 00:23:20,549 Speaker 1: I was surprised when I started my kids at their 456 00:23:20,589 --> 00:23:24,549 Speaker 1: school that they still give out prizes for best attendancy. 457 00:23:24,669 --> 00:23:26,189 Speaker 2: Yes, that's controversial. 458 00:23:27,149 --> 00:23:30,069 Speaker 1: I can see why, because kids can't help it when 459 00:23:30,109 --> 00:23:33,389 Speaker 1: they get sick. Do we learn nothing from COVID? I'm 460 00:23:33,469 --> 00:23:36,709 Speaker 1: just really surprised. Why do you think schools I mean, 461 00:23:36,749 --> 00:23:38,429 Speaker 1: I guess I'm going to answer something own question here. 462 00:23:38,469 --> 00:23:41,069 Speaker 1: I think schools are persisting with that idea of perfect 463 00:23:41,069 --> 00:23:44,269 Speaker 1: intendance and rewarding kids who make it into school the 464 00:23:44,309 --> 00:23:48,669 Speaker 1: most because they're seeing this trend of school refusal or 465 00:23:48,709 --> 00:23:51,629 Speaker 1: school can't and they want to hammer home what an 466 00:23:51,669 --> 00:23:53,269 Speaker 1: example of a kid showing up. 467 00:23:53,229 --> 00:23:54,989 Speaker 2: Every day looks like and the importance of sitting in 468 00:23:55,029 --> 00:23:57,869 Speaker 2: the classroom because my parents would say that, you know, 469 00:23:57,909 --> 00:23:59,389 Speaker 2: you might look at your nine or you might look 470 00:23:59,389 --> 00:24:02,029 Speaker 2: at your five and go, come on, what's a day. 471 00:24:02,349 --> 00:24:06,589 Speaker 2: But if you repeatedly miss that, there are certain blocks 472 00:24:06,629 --> 00:24:09,349 Speaker 2: in learning that are very difficult to catch up on. 473 00:24:09,509 --> 00:24:11,269 Speaker 2: So there is some that you will learn in year five. 474 00:24:11,269 --> 00:24:12,869 Speaker 2: I'm not saying on one day. I'm just saying like, 475 00:24:12,949 --> 00:24:15,189 Speaker 2: if you you know, and people who have had a 476 00:24:15,229 --> 00:24:18,069 Speaker 2: prolonged illness will know this, you miss that and become 477 00:24:18,269 --> 00:24:20,029 Speaker 2: very hard to catch up in year six or year seven. 478 00:24:20,109 --> 00:24:23,149 Speaker 2: So I suppose it is like if you're on the fence, 479 00:24:23,309 --> 00:24:27,309 Speaker 2: go but presentee is a more forcing that also, isn't 480 00:24:27,349 --> 00:24:27,789 Speaker 2: the ideal? 481 00:24:28,189 --> 00:24:30,029 Speaker 1: Yeah, So I guess we're kind of talking about a 482 00:24:30,069 --> 00:24:34,469 Speaker 1: few different things here. One is the rise of homeschooling, 483 00:24:34,549 --> 00:24:38,749 Speaker 1: which I think we can attribute to the general decline 484 00:24:38,789 --> 00:24:42,669 Speaker 1: of trust in authority and expertise post COVID, And it's 485 00:24:42,749 --> 00:24:45,029 Speaker 1: right now, it's being led by very wealthy people, I 486 00:24:45,029 --> 00:24:47,349 Speaker 1: would say, who want to control what their children learn 487 00:24:47,389 --> 00:24:48,829 Speaker 1: and are maybe not very interested. 488 00:24:49,189 --> 00:24:51,429 Speaker 2: And then on the other hand, people with kids with 489 00:24:51,629 --> 00:24:55,069 Speaker 2: different needs. I think that's the other group. Yeah, we've 490 00:24:55,109 --> 00:24:58,309 Speaker 2: probably got to acknowledge and in fact, for them, the 491 00:24:58,389 --> 00:25:00,229 Speaker 2: outcomes are really good. 492 00:25:01,549 --> 00:25:04,269 Speaker 1: Live Schmidt is a twenty three year old model in 493 00:25:04,309 --> 00:25:07,229 Speaker 1: New York City who makes her money encouraging women and 494 00:25:07,309 --> 00:25:11,229 Speaker 1: girls to follow the skinny lifestyle. This was a story 495 00:25:11,269 --> 00:25:14,589 Speaker 1: in The Cut last week that is causing people to 496 00:25:14,669 --> 00:25:17,789 Speaker 1: lose their minds. Basically, I knew nothing about this but 497 00:25:17,869 --> 00:25:20,469 Speaker 1: Live Schmidt. She was on TikTok until last year, then 498 00:25:20,509 --> 00:25:23,309 Speaker 1: she was banned after a Wall Street Journal article. Now 499 00:25:23,349 --> 00:25:26,509 Speaker 1: she's on Instagram. She's just been banned from Instagram as 500 00:25:26,509 --> 00:25:30,429 Speaker 1: a result of this article. Basically, she mocks women, who 501 00:25:30,469 --> 00:25:34,429 Speaker 1: she says are large and fat. She posts videos where 502 00:25:34,469 --> 00:25:37,589 Speaker 1: she says things like girls be three hundred pounds, saying 503 00:25:37,749 --> 00:25:41,909 Speaker 1: I'm a snack. No Megatron, you're the fkn vending machine. 504 00:25:42,349 --> 00:25:45,109 Speaker 1: So just really nice things like that. She has a 505 00:25:45,149 --> 00:25:50,389 Speaker 1: subscription only group called Skinny Society, which for twenty dollars 506 00:25:50,429 --> 00:25:54,469 Speaker 1: a month, members gain access to exclusive content, including recipes, 507 00:25:54,509 --> 00:25:58,429 Speaker 1: workout videos, and diaries of everything Schmidt eats in one day. 508 00:25:59,229 --> 00:26:02,669 Speaker 1: She gained some notoriety recently because she said that instead 509 00:26:02,669 --> 00:26:07,949 Speaker 1: of having dessert, you could swallow your boyfriend's semen, and 510 00:26:07,989 --> 00:26:11,349 Speaker 1: she said that semen's only something like fivealries a tea spoons, 511 00:26:11,429 --> 00:26:14,229 Speaker 1: so that's good to know. There's also a group dm 512 00:26:14,349 --> 00:26:17,149 Speaker 1: thread that you get access to where people basically egg 513 00:26:17,229 --> 00:26:22,269 Speaker 1: themselves on to eat less, and it's just really distressing 514 00:26:22,349 --> 00:26:26,149 Speaker 1: to read about Airmail. The publication Airmail recently estimated that 515 00:26:26,229 --> 00:26:28,549 Speaker 1: she makes one hundred and thirty thousand US dollars a 516 00:26:28,589 --> 00:26:30,869 Speaker 1: month from the six and a half thousand members in 517 00:26:30,909 --> 00:26:35,389 Speaker 1: the skinny society. So look, I think why this article 518 00:26:35,429 --> 00:26:38,469 Speaker 1: made such as splash is that people definitely did not 519 00:26:38,589 --> 00:26:43,389 Speaker 1: realize how thriving this somewhat underground community is because as 520 00:26:43,389 --> 00:26:46,269 Speaker 1: shown by the fact that TikTok and Meta both had 521 00:26:46,269 --> 00:26:49,189 Speaker 1: to ban her after news articles came out, so clearly 522 00:26:49,189 --> 00:26:52,469 Speaker 1: they're not moderating their platforms very well. If you search 523 00:26:52,509 --> 00:26:55,949 Speaker 1: skinny or skinny talk on TikTok and Instagram, you'll apparently 524 00:26:55,949 --> 00:26:59,109 Speaker 1: see thousands of videos along these lines of very thin 525 00:26:59,149 --> 00:27:03,589 Speaker 1: women showing off their locale diets. What's interesting about liv 526 00:27:03,629 --> 00:27:06,349 Speaker 1: Schmidt to me, having lived through the nineties and Kate 527 00:27:06,469 --> 00:27:09,789 Speaker 1: Moss and Heroin Chic, is that she's very careful not 528 00:27:09,789 --> 00:27:14,469 Speaker 1: to add advocate for particular foods, particular diets. She frames 529 00:27:14,509 --> 00:27:17,669 Speaker 1: it all in this sort of faux feminist empowering language. 530 00:27:17,709 --> 00:27:20,389 Speaker 1: She says things like eat like you're the main character, 531 00:27:20,509 --> 00:27:23,949 Speaker 1: because you are. She says, eat like your highest self 532 00:27:24,069 --> 00:27:28,429 Speaker 1: is watching. So it's a very interesting kind of twist 533 00:27:28,669 --> 00:27:32,829 Speaker 1: on that feminist rhetoric to basically further eating disorders. And 534 00:27:32,989 --> 00:27:35,869 Speaker 1: the Cut article found evidence of girls in high school 535 00:27:35,909 --> 00:27:39,869 Speaker 1: posting on skinny society, including about how thin they were 536 00:27:40,309 --> 00:27:43,669 Speaker 1: for their graduations. I was shocked by this, but maybe 537 00:27:43,709 --> 00:27:46,829 Speaker 1: that's because I'm not super immersed in social media. Jesse, 538 00:27:47,149 --> 00:27:49,909 Speaker 1: how did this article make you feel? Were you shocked 539 00:27:49,909 --> 00:27:50,149 Speaker 1: by it? 540 00:27:50,669 --> 00:27:54,909 Speaker 2: I was because I'm not being served this. But then 541 00:27:54,949 --> 00:27:57,509 Speaker 2: the way the algorithms work, the people who will be 542 00:27:57,589 --> 00:28:01,109 Speaker 2: my sensitive to it will right. And maybe it's easy 543 00:28:01,189 --> 00:28:04,069 Speaker 2: for us to assume that the culture has shifted. But 544 00:28:04,349 --> 00:28:07,789 Speaker 2: I was at something a few weeks ago where it 545 00:28:07,829 --> 00:28:09,749 Speaker 2: was like a kid's fun day thing, right, And they 546 00:28:09,829 --> 00:28:11,589 Speaker 2: was like an obstacle course and there was a jumping 547 00:28:11,629 --> 00:28:15,109 Speaker 2: castle and there was face painting and in the obstacle 548 00:28:15,189 --> 00:28:18,629 Speaker 2: course there was a tunnel thing you know kids, yea 549 00:28:18,909 --> 00:28:21,509 Speaker 2: like run through these little tunnels, and there was a girl, 550 00:28:21,589 --> 00:28:24,709 Speaker 2: she might have been six or seven, and she was 551 00:28:24,749 --> 00:28:27,669 Speaker 2: standing there and her friend said, why aren't you going 552 00:28:27,669 --> 00:28:30,069 Speaker 2: through the tunnel, like because she hadn't been doing it, 553 00:28:30,109 --> 00:28:32,629 Speaker 2: and she said, I can't fit through the tunnel. I'm 554 00:28:32,629 --> 00:28:37,629 Speaker 2: too fat. And the look on this girl's face, I went, oh, 555 00:28:37,709 --> 00:28:40,149 Speaker 2: I thought that didn't happen anything. Yes, I thought that 556 00:28:40,149 --> 00:28:42,269 Speaker 2: that's not how we spoke exact. It wasn't that she 557 00:28:42,309 --> 00:28:44,029 Speaker 2: said I can't fit, because she could have gone I'm 558 00:28:44,069 --> 00:28:45,469 Speaker 2: too big. She was a little bit older than the 559 00:28:45,509 --> 00:28:48,229 Speaker 2: four year old's going through. It was the way the 560 00:28:48,269 --> 00:28:51,669 Speaker 2: word fat came out of her mouth that I went, Oh, 561 00:28:51,709 --> 00:28:55,829 Speaker 2: that's got to her at seven. Yeah, Like that is sickening. 562 00:28:56,109 --> 00:29:00,549 Speaker 2: There is so much information now on food and solids 563 00:29:00,589 --> 00:29:03,269 Speaker 2: and feeding and all of that and how to prevent 564 00:29:03,909 --> 00:29:05,909 Speaker 2: you know, restriction and all of that. And I've been 565 00:29:05,949 --> 00:29:08,429 Speaker 2: deep in this because I have a child who eating 566 00:29:08,429 --> 00:29:11,429 Speaker 2: has never been very straightforward. And the idea that you 567 00:29:11,549 --> 00:29:13,509 Speaker 2: put it there and as you decide when you're full, 568 00:29:13,629 --> 00:29:17,829 Speaker 2: and you don't comment on things like that. But I've 569 00:29:17,869 --> 00:29:22,229 Speaker 2: certainly noticed that even like oh she's so little or 570 00:29:22,669 --> 00:29:28,949 Speaker 2: whatever has already started and I wonder how you then 571 00:29:29,469 --> 00:29:33,349 Speaker 2: protect them from because inevitably, and I went through this, 572 00:29:33,429 --> 00:29:35,509 Speaker 2: you then go through puberty where your body starts to 573 00:29:35,629 --> 00:29:38,309 Speaker 2: change and suddenly you know, maybe you're not that little 574 00:29:38,389 --> 00:29:40,869 Speaker 2: or parts of you, whatever it is, it's a really 575 00:29:40,909 --> 00:29:44,669 Speaker 2: hard thing to sort of recalibrate. I wouldn't think that 576 00:29:44,709 --> 00:29:46,509 Speaker 2: seven year old is even on social media, so I 577 00:29:46,509 --> 00:29:49,109 Speaker 2: imagine that it's just coming into the well, it's background. 578 00:29:49,229 --> 00:29:52,669 Speaker 1: As you point out, with your own child, people are 579 00:29:52,709 --> 00:29:57,989 Speaker 1: already judging or commenting on her body. Yeah, on Luna's body. 580 00:29:58,549 --> 00:30:02,949 Speaker 1: So it's happening early. And I completely agree with what 581 00:30:02,949 --> 00:30:06,149 Speaker 1: you said about thinking that we were over this, because 582 00:30:06,189 --> 00:30:09,149 Speaker 1: you and I both live through the body positivity moment 583 00:30:09,349 --> 00:30:11,949 Speaker 1: in the mid two thousands. I'm thinking back to I 584 00:30:11,989 --> 00:30:14,989 Speaker 1: guess it all started actually with the Dove ads. Yeah, 585 00:30:15,069 --> 00:30:17,069 Speaker 1: and then it kind of snowballed from there, and it 586 00:30:17,349 --> 00:30:20,589 Speaker 1: coincided actually with the decline of magazines, which is where 587 00:30:20,709 --> 00:30:24,669 Speaker 1: I certainly inhaled a lot of this content in the nineties, 588 00:30:25,109 --> 00:30:26,869 Speaker 1: and I sort of thought we were just beyond it 589 00:30:26,909 --> 00:30:29,349 Speaker 1: that along with them more nuanced understanding of things like 590 00:30:29,429 --> 00:30:33,509 Speaker 1: sexuality and race relations and the environment and taking care 591 00:30:33,589 --> 00:30:36,549 Speaker 1: of the environment. We were just getting more progressive, more enlightened, 592 00:30:36,589 --> 00:30:38,749 Speaker 1: and that our children wouldn't have to deal with this. 593 00:30:39,109 --> 00:30:41,629 Speaker 1: While it turns out I was wrong, and what came 594 00:30:41,669 --> 00:30:45,189 Speaker 1: through to me in this cut article is that every 595 00:30:45,269 --> 00:30:49,149 Speaker 1: generation ends up having this issue, and it's just that 596 00:30:49,229 --> 00:30:51,469 Speaker 1: the language around it changes and the media in which 597 00:30:51,469 --> 00:30:54,349 Speaker 1: it's consumed changes. So I mentioned that. For me, in 598 00:30:54,389 --> 00:30:57,109 Speaker 1: the nineties, it was very much magazines that were conveying 599 00:30:57,149 --> 00:30:59,429 Speaker 1: the diet tips. In the early two thousands, it was 600 00:30:59,509 --> 00:31:02,429 Speaker 1: probably live journal, tumbler of those kinds of platforms. 601 00:31:02,509 --> 00:31:05,789 Speaker 2: Oh, Tumblr, I forgot how and that was very much 602 00:31:05,909 --> 00:31:09,309 Speaker 2: the image that it had. This really there was a 603 00:31:09,389 --> 00:31:13,029 Speaker 2: term that was used that was almost hashtagged, and it 604 00:31:13,109 --> 00:31:16,749 Speaker 2: attracted people who were struggling with eating disorders and glorified. 605 00:31:16,309 --> 00:31:18,829 Speaker 1: Bro Anna right, yes, yes, yeah, So that was the 606 00:31:18,909 --> 00:31:20,909 Speaker 1: thing then and now it's just moved on to a 607 00:31:20,949 --> 00:31:23,829 Speaker 1: different platform. What I want to ask you is do 608 00:31:23,909 --> 00:31:26,509 Speaker 1: you think that there is any escaping it or is 609 00:31:26,549 --> 00:31:30,309 Speaker 1: this kind of like nihilistic idea that every generation of 610 00:31:30,389 --> 00:31:33,309 Speaker 1: young women inevitably has to cope with this. 611 00:31:33,869 --> 00:31:36,589 Speaker 2: I think that's true that we had this optimism. I 612 00:31:36,629 --> 00:31:38,789 Speaker 2: remember hearing mums talk about it in the office of 613 00:31:38,869 --> 00:31:40,789 Speaker 2: like I'm going to get my daughter when she has 614 00:31:40,829 --> 00:31:43,029 Speaker 2: a phone, I'll just follow a bunch of diverse people 615 00:31:43,149 --> 00:31:45,429 Speaker 2: on Instagram, so she'll see all of those images and 616 00:31:45,469 --> 00:31:48,869 Speaker 2: it'll be the antithesis of a magazine or whatever because 617 00:31:48,909 --> 00:31:51,229 Speaker 2: she'll have all of these different bodies and shapes coming up. 618 00:31:51,909 --> 00:31:54,589 Speaker 2: You can't do that on TikTok, like you just can't, 619 00:31:54,829 --> 00:31:55,589 Speaker 2: and it. 620 00:31:55,589 --> 00:31:57,469 Speaker 1: Won't curate in that way. No control. 621 00:31:57,829 --> 00:32:00,269 Speaker 2: All it takes is you know, I'm pretty sure if 622 00:32:00,269 --> 00:32:02,669 Speaker 2: that app knows that you're a young girl, it's going 623 00:32:02,749 --> 00:32:04,909 Speaker 2: to go I know what to give you, and then 624 00:32:04,949 --> 00:32:07,069 Speaker 2: all you have to do is stay for a second 625 00:32:07,349 --> 00:32:10,189 Speaker 2: and you're just going to get more and more. So 626 00:32:10,269 --> 00:32:14,069 Speaker 2: in that way, I don't think so. But from what 627 00:32:14,149 --> 00:32:17,429 Speaker 2: I've heard, people I know that grew up with a 628 00:32:17,509 --> 00:32:22,349 Speaker 2: real complex around weight seemed to absorb some of that 629 00:32:22,949 --> 00:32:26,989 Speaker 2: from their family. And I just maybe the hope or 630 00:32:26,989 --> 00:32:29,229 Speaker 2: the thing that I go the difference we can make 631 00:32:29,349 --> 00:32:31,589 Speaker 2: is like how we talk about it inside the house 632 00:32:32,189 --> 00:32:34,709 Speaker 2: and the language, how you speak about other people, how 633 00:32:34,709 --> 00:32:36,829 Speaker 2: you speak about food, how you speak about bodies, how 634 00:32:36,829 --> 00:32:38,429 Speaker 2: you look at yourself in the mirror. All of those 635 00:32:38,469 --> 00:32:41,029 Speaker 2: things I think does impact it. I grew up with 636 00:32:41,029 --> 00:32:45,229 Speaker 2: a mum who never commented on her body once, not negatively, 637 00:32:45,389 --> 00:32:48,029 Speaker 2: not her face, not anything, and I think it was 638 00:32:48,109 --> 00:32:50,069 Speaker 2: just like to me in my house, it felt irrelevant, 639 00:32:50,589 --> 00:32:53,469 Speaker 2: whereas I know that that really impacted other people who 640 00:32:53,469 --> 00:32:54,749 Speaker 2: grew up with a different experience. 641 00:32:55,069 --> 00:32:57,869 Speaker 1: It's also really hard to escape even when you are 642 00:32:57,989 --> 00:33:02,509 Speaker 1: trying to create a body neutral space within your family. So, 643 00:33:02,589 --> 00:33:06,229 Speaker 1: for instance, I loved Roll Dyle books growing up. Oh yeah, 644 00:33:06,549 --> 00:33:09,509 Speaker 1: been reading them to my children, Matilda, Charlie and the 645 00:33:09,549 --> 00:33:12,669 Speaker 1: Chocolate famc and the Twits. And the problem with these 646 00:33:12,709 --> 00:33:18,029 Speaker 1: books is that the word fat and the idea that 647 00:33:18,669 --> 00:33:21,949 Speaker 1: people who are ugly on the inside are always ugly 648 00:33:21,989 --> 00:33:24,949 Speaker 1: on the outside, and that those two things are essentially synonymous. 649 00:33:24,989 --> 00:33:29,789 Speaker 1: It pervades those books a sort of repulsion for women's bodies, 650 00:33:30,069 --> 00:33:34,149 Speaker 1: particularly fat women's bodies, particularly women who are maybe not 651 00:33:34,349 --> 00:33:38,789 Speaker 1: your platonic ideal of beauty and the merging of the 652 00:33:38,829 --> 00:33:42,469 Speaker 1: inner and outer self. It's there, great and just through 653 00:33:42,549 --> 00:33:45,309 Speaker 1: those books. It's shot through them. And a lot of 654 00:33:45,429 --> 00:33:49,269 Speaker 1: older books do have that idea of inner beauty being 655 00:33:49,269 --> 00:33:51,749 Speaker 1: the same as out of beauty, and if fairy tales 656 00:33:51,789 --> 00:33:55,029 Speaker 1: have it too. In fact, the ugly stepsisters in Cinderella, 657 00:33:55,069 --> 00:33:59,389 Speaker 1: for instance, they're both ugly and mean. Cinderella is both 658 00:33:59,429 --> 00:34:04,709 Speaker 1: beautiful and kind, and to decouple those qualities if you're 659 00:34:04,709 --> 00:34:07,589 Speaker 1: going to read classic kids literature, it's really difficult to 660 00:34:07,669 --> 00:34:10,029 Speaker 1: convey that those two things are not synonymous. 661 00:34:10,229 --> 00:34:13,469 Speaker 2: That must be why every children's book now is animal. 662 00:34:13,949 --> 00:34:16,629 Speaker 2: It's like it's a gendlest animal, because it's like we 663 00:34:16,709 --> 00:34:19,549 Speaker 2: could project on it. It doesn't matter the size. Sometimes it's 664 00:34:19,549 --> 00:34:22,349 Speaker 2: an elephant, sometimes it's a mouse. But it's like you 665 00:34:22,429 --> 00:34:25,629 Speaker 2: don't get all of that complexity of trying to then 666 00:34:25,709 --> 00:34:29,269 Speaker 2: identify them into a certain body or you know that's. 667 00:34:29,149 --> 00:34:32,709 Speaker 1: True because it is also quite recent that we've started 668 00:34:32,749 --> 00:34:35,589 Speaker 1: to talk about this in this way. For instance, Harry 669 00:34:35,589 --> 00:34:38,469 Speaker 1: Potter is full of the same thing, and that was 670 00:34:38,509 --> 00:34:41,949 Speaker 1: written in the two thousands. So it just goes to 671 00:34:42,029 --> 00:34:44,909 Speaker 1: show that we're hopefully on the cutting edge of trying 672 00:34:44,949 --> 00:34:47,909 Speaker 1: to teach a different thing to our children. But then again, 673 00:34:48,429 --> 00:34:50,869 Speaker 1: I'm sure our feminist mothers thought that they were doing 674 00:34:50,909 --> 00:34:54,309 Speaker 1: that too. Alright, it's time for recommendations, Jesse. 675 00:34:54,429 --> 00:34:56,309 Speaker 2: What have you got for us, Amelia? Have you ever 676 00:34:56,309 --> 00:34:57,269 Speaker 2: been to a toy library? 677 00:34:57,389 --> 00:34:57,469 Speaker 3: No? 678 00:34:57,709 --> 00:35:00,149 Speaker 2: I see these signs tell me what they're like. They 679 00:35:00,189 --> 00:35:03,269 Speaker 2: sound wondering, They're so good, and it's so not something 680 00:35:03,309 --> 00:35:06,149 Speaker 2: I would ever have gone and found. 681 00:35:06,229 --> 00:35:08,549 Speaker 1: Well, it would be weird if you didn't have kids 682 00:35:08,589 --> 00:35:11,149 Speaker 1: and we're just hanging out at toilet exactly. 683 00:35:11,229 --> 00:35:14,469 Speaker 2: But the toy library is part of my local library, 684 00:35:14,469 --> 00:35:17,349 Speaker 2: which is on my string, so it's very very easy. 685 00:35:17,429 --> 00:35:18,949 Speaker 2: But I looked it up and there are hundreds across 686 00:35:18,949 --> 00:35:21,629 Speaker 2: the country. It's not just my neighborhood. But a toy 687 00:35:21,709 --> 00:35:24,949 Speaker 2: library is literally you go in and it's got every 688 00:35:25,069 --> 00:35:28,349 Speaker 2: toy you could possibly imagine. It has costumes. You know, 689 00:35:28,429 --> 00:35:30,989 Speaker 2: there's a stage at which they might like a little 690 00:35:30,989 --> 00:35:33,269 Speaker 2: pram to practice their walking because they're not, and you know, 691 00:35:33,309 --> 00:35:35,149 Speaker 2: you need that for like two months and then you 692 00:35:35,189 --> 00:35:38,109 Speaker 2: never need it again. It has things like that, and 693 00:35:38,149 --> 00:35:40,269 Speaker 2: then you do weigh. I think it was like seventy 694 00:35:40,349 --> 00:35:42,749 Speaker 2: bucks for a twelve month subscription, and I could go 695 00:35:42,829 --> 00:35:44,709 Speaker 2: every week if I want it, and I can get 696 00:35:44,749 --> 00:35:47,149 Speaker 2: like three or four toys and then I get three time. 697 00:35:47,349 --> 00:35:47,509 Speaker 1: Yeah. 698 00:35:47,589 --> 00:35:50,429 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you get multiple toys return them. And I 699 00:35:50,469 --> 00:35:52,229 Speaker 2: was like, can I donate toys to this? Because I 700 00:35:52,229 --> 00:35:54,949 Speaker 2: remember reading something a while ago about how there's an 701 00:35:54,949 --> 00:35:59,589 Speaker 2: ideal amount of toys. They say it's between ten and fifteen. 702 00:35:59,909 --> 00:36:02,989 Speaker 1: So it probably wouldn't and probably wouldn't. 703 00:36:03,229 --> 00:36:06,429 Speaker 2: And it inspires creativity because it's like, if they don't 704 00:36:06,549 --> 00:36:08,549 Speaker 2: have the doll, then they have to make the doll 705 00:36:08,589 --> 00:36:12,069 Speaker 2: out of playtoes, which yeah, yeah, that's. 706 00:36:12,189 --> 00:36:13,909 Speaker 1: That's where my parents went wrong. 707 00:36:15,269 --> 00:36:17,789 Speaker 2: But Toy library is so so good because we all 708 00:36:17,829 --> 00:36:20,909 Speaker 2: know the clutter everything. Often your kid just wants it 709 00:36:20,909 --> 00:36:22,629 Speaker 2: for two weeks and then it disappears and they never 710 00:36:22,709 --> 00:36:23,469 Speaker 2: think about it again. 711 00:36:23,629 --> 00:36:24,589 Speaker 1: So I love that. 712 00:36:24,589 --> 00:36:27,149 Speaker 2: That's my my hack. How about you, Amelia. 713 00:36:27,229 --> 00:36:30,669 Speaker 1: My recommendation is one very near and dear to my heart. 714 00:36:30,789 --> 00:36:33,189 Speaker 1: It's been a companion in my life for years now. 715 00:36:33,389 --> 00:36:36,469 Speaker 1: It's a podcast. It's called Grim Grimmer Grimmist. 716 00:36:36,829 --> 00:36:38,869 Speaker 2: Have you heard of it? Is it Grim Brothers related? 717 00:36:38,989 --> 00:36:39,189 Speaker 1: Yes? 718 00:36:39,469 --> 00:36:40,109 Speaker 2: I love them. 719 00:36:40,589 --> 00:36:43,469 Speaker 1: Yes, it is grim fairy tales. I mean the Grim 720 00:36:43,469 --> 00:36:45,829 Speaker 1: Brothers are like true crime for the eighteenth century. 721 00:36:46,109 --> 00:36:48,029 Speaker 2: Were they twins or just brothers? I think they want 722 00:36:48,429 --> 00:36:50,229 Speaker 2: maybe just brothers. But Clara and I find them very 723 00:36:50,269 --> 00:36:53,029 Speaker 2: inspiring because they wa yeah, it's really sweet. 724 00:36:53,069 --> 00:36:56,269 Speaker 1: So the host is Adam Gidwitz. It's an American podcast 725 00:36:56,429 --> 00:36:59,469 Speaker 1: and the fifth season of this podcast drops, and yes 726 00:36:59,509 --> 00:37:02,389 Speaker 1: I did say dropped. I'm very excited about it. Dropped 727 00:37:02,389 --> 00:37:05,869 Speaker 1: a couple of days ago. That's my household version of 728 00:37:05,909 --> 00:37:07,829 Speaker 1: rep TV, just to give you a sense of how 729 00:37:07,909 --> 00:37:11,029 Speaker 1: exciting this is. So here's the premise. Adam Gibwitz goes 730 00:37:11,069 --> 00:37:13,549 Speaker 1: to the classroom of a very fancy school in Brooklyn, 731 00:37:13,589 --> 00:37:16,189 Speaker 1: New York to tell grim fairy tales, and he records 732 00:37:16,229 --> 00:37:19,669 Speaker 1: himself telling the story and also records the kids responding 733 00:37:19,749 --> 00:37:23,189 Speaker 1: in real time to the story. So this podcast works 734 00:37:23,229 --> 00:37:26,949 Speaker 1: on a number of levels for parents. There's something slightly 735 00:37:27,069 --> 00:37:30,509 Speaker 1: voyeuristic about the milieu of this podcast, which is, like 736 00:37:30,549 --> 00:37:33,229 Speaker 1: I mentioned this very fancy school, because the kid's parents, 737 00:37:33,269 --> 00:37:36,509 Speaker 1: you learn through their anecdotes, are all like really fancy careers, 738 00:37:36,549 --> 00:37:39,909 Speaker 1: like their set designers, their novelists, and you're just getting 739 00:37:39,909 --> 00:37:42,989 Speaker 1: this glimpse into kind of like the upper crust of 740 00:37:43,029 --> 00:37:45,349 Speaker 1: New York and how they're raising their kids. It's heavy. 741 00:37:45,349 --> 00:37:46,789 Speaker 1: I love it, Yeah, I love it. And then the 742 00:37:46,829 --> 00:37:50,069 Speaker 1: second thing is the kids are extremely precocious and well 743 00:37:50,069 --> 00:37:53,469 Speaker 1: spoken because their parents are again set designers, a novelist 744 00:37:53,509 --> 00:37:55,269 Speaker 1: in the upper crust of New York. So they add 745 00:37:55,269 --> 00:37:59,629 Speaker 1: in these actually very witty interjections to the stories. And 746 00:37:59,669 --> 00:38:01,349 Speaker 1: then the third thing that's great about it is that 747 00:38:01,389 --> 00:38:03,949 Speaker 1: the grim fairy tales are just the best stories. 748 00:38:03,949 --> 00:38:06,429 Speaker 2: It's like canceling Gretelin stuff. Yeah, right, Like it's all 749 00:38:06,469 --> 00:38:08,589 Speaker 2: the really disturbing ones that I loved. 750 00:38:08,589 --> 00:38:11,589 Speaker 1: Is really disturbing. And so that's why it's called grim, Grimmer, grimmest, 751 00:38:11,669 --> 00:38:15,669 Speaker 1: because each fairy tale is ranked is it grim, is 752 00:38:15,709 --> 00:38:18,509 Speaker 1: it grimmer, or is it grimmest, And so you can 753 00:38:18,629 --> 00:38:21,109 Speaker 1: kind of pick how dark you want the story to be. 754 00:38:21,869 --> 00:38:24,109 Speaker 1: They're not sugar coated, they're not done down. In fact, 755 00:38:24,109 --> 00:38:26,469 Speaker 1: some of the stories. Most of the stories are quite violent. 756 00:38:26,749 --> 00:38:30,349 Speaker 1: Love that, but in a kind of kid's storybook somehow 757 00:38:30,389 --> 00:38:33,829 Speaker 1: age appropriate way. How long are the episodes They range 758 00:38:33,869 --> 00:38:37,429 Speaker 1: in between about twenty and fifty minutes. You probably need 759 00:38:37,509 --> 00:38:41,429 Speaker 1: to buy some episodes if you want the whole back catalog, 760 00:38:41,469 --> 00:38:44,789 Speaker 1: but there's plenty available for free on podcast platforms to 761 00:38:44,949 --> 00:38:48,189 Speaker 1: just try out. A good one to try out versus Rumpelstiltskin, 762 00:38:48,789 --> 00:38:51,789 Speaker 1: which is one of my favorites, and Gidwitz itself. He's 763 00:38:51,829 --> 00:38:54,589 Speaker 1: just a fantastic storyteller. There's a reason why when you 764 00:38:54,669 --> 00:38:57,549 Speaker 1: type his name into Google, the first result is Adam 765 00:38:57,589 --> 00:39:01,549 Speaker 1: Gibwits married because I've definitely googled that and you will too. 766 00:39:02,669 --> 00:39:06,269 Speaker 2: I love that. Thank you so much. That is all 767 00:39:06,309 --> 00:39:09,349 Speaker 2: we have time for on parenting out Loud today. Mom 768 00:39:09,349 --> 00:39:12,469 Speaker 2: and me a studio are Style with furniture from Fenton Inventon. 769 00:39:12,629 --> 00:39:15,949 Speaker 2: Visit Fenton Inventon dot com dot au. We will see 770 00:39:15,989 --> 00:39:21,029 Speaker 2: you next Saturday. Bye,