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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mama Miya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. How far away was

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Speaker 2: it from your life?

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Speaker 1: Very different. I'm twenty nine and I now live in

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Speaker 1: New York, but had been living in London at the

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Speaker 1: beginning of the year.

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Speaker 2: This is journalist Meghan Agnew.

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Speaker 1: And I don't have any children, and I'm not married, and.

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Speaker 2: You have a career outside the home, and I.

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Speaker 1: Have a career and unmarried and childless at the same

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Speaker 1: age as my mom was when she was married and

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Speaker 1: with children.

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Speaker 2: I'm talking to her today about trad wives. One trad

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Speaker 2: wife in particular, perhaps the queen of the tradwives, Hannah Nielman.

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Speaker 2: She's thirty four and she runs Ballerina Farm with her husband, Daniel,

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Speaker 2: who's thirty five, and their eight children. They live in Utah,

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Speaker 2: which is often referred to as Mormon Country because a

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Speaker 2: lot of Mormons live there, and Hannah and Daniel are

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Speaker 2: both Mormons. Ballerina Farm is an actual farm with actual

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Speaker 2: animals which are farmed for food, and Hannah is an

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Speaker 2: actual Ballerina at least she was until about after child

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Speaker 2: number two or three. When she stopped dancing professionally and

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Speaker 2: switched to farm life with her family. Ballerina Farm, though,

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Speaker 2: is also a brand, a huge brand with millions of

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Speaker 2: Instagram followers, where Hannah makes content about her farm life,

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Speaker 2: the meals that she makes from scratch, the babies she

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Speaker 2: births in her bedroom, the farm work that she and

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Speaker 2: her husband do, and all the many many children that

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Speaker 2: she homeschools. You'll see all of that on the Ballerina

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Speaker 2: Farm Instagram account. Here's the audio of one of Hannah's

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Speaker 2: reels about what an average day.

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Speaker 1: For her looks like.

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Speaker 2: This one has been liked by one hundred and sixty

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Speaker 2: thousd people.

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Speaker 3: I wake up nurse for Joe, with the kids fed

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Speaker 3: and ready for school, which is in a little schoolhouse

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Speaker 3: we have here on the farm. Then today I decided

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Speaker 3: to make some soup.

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Speaker 2: Now, the images that you see when you watch this

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Speaker 2: reel are almost like a country music.

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Speaker 1: Video entered gathering food.

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Speaker 2: It's this depiction of a very wholesome Americana lifestyle, big

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Speaker 2: ranch under a big wide open sky, happy kids running

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Speaker 2: barefoot everywhere. We see Hannah exercising and nursing her youngest baby,

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Speaker 2: picking fresh produce from the garden, cooking, and parenting. And

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Speaker 2: there's also a fair amount of Ballerina Farm product placement

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Speaker 2: because they sell protein powder and meat and sour dough

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Speaker 2: starters as well as merch through their Ballerina Farm website,

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Speaker 2: and all of it's a very sort of soft focus,

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Speaker 2: aesthetically pleasing, simple vibe. Hannah never breaks a sweat or

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Speaker 2: looks stressed or overwhelmed or even disheveled, and as you're

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Speaker 2: about to hear in this episode, that's not by accident.

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Speaker 2: Because to sell products, the Ballerina Farm sells a lifestyle,

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Speaker 2: and the lifestyle it sells is that of a traditional

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Speaker 2: wife and mother. Some even call it an ideology.

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Speaker 4: If you've been on social media, you've probably seen the

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Speaker 4: hashtag beautiful women cooking, cleaning, and embracing life as stay

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Speaker 4: at home moms. These glassy, gorgeous videos showcasing life seemingly

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Speaker 4: plucked out of history.

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Speaker 2: But for all the instagramminess of tradwives and their proliferation

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Speaker 2: on social media, it's rare for journalists to get access

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Speaker 2: to them. And maybe that's because it's a hard image

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Speaker 2: to keep up all day long in front of strangers.

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Speaker 2: But somehow the times journalist Megan Agnew did get access.

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Speaker 2: She spent a whole day at Ballerina Farm with Hannah

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Speaker 2: Nuw and her family, and then she wrote a profile

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Speaker 2: for The Times that went viral and sparked a million

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Speaker 2: think pieces about Ballerina Farm and tradwives. And what was

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Speaker 2: the reaction from Hannah and her husband Daniel after the

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Speaker 2: profile came out.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that they were thrilled.

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Speaker 2: Yeah from mom and Maya, this is no filter. I'm

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Speaker 2: meya Friedman, and let's get into it by starting with

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Speaker 2: some basics. What even is a trad wife and how

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Speaker 2: is a tradwife different to say, a housewife or a

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Speaker 2: stay at home mother.

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Speaker 1: My feeling about it is that it's about the public

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Speaker 1: way of being a housewife. So you can be a housewife,

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Speaker 1: but that's not being a trad wife because tradwife is

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Speaker 1: performing it on the internet for other people's consumption and

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Speaker 1: as a product that has the sort of shop front.

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Speaker 2: I guess when I interview former tradwives who've sort of

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Speaker 2: escaped from what they call the col of trad wifery,

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Speaker 2: we free all rides tend to laid back to the

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Speaker 2: duggers in terms of, you know, Michelle and Jimbob who

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Speaker 2: with all of their children in that reality show. That

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Speaker 2: was the first time we saw this tread wife life

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Speaker 2: being performed. Is that your understanding of where it all began.

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Speaker 1: I saw it beginning in Lockdown, really on social media,

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Speaker 1: specifically when lots of people went back to this really

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Speaker 1: earthy existence of having their fingers in the soil and

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Speaker 1: making every morning. And we really wanted to do that,

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Speaker 1: and we really wanted to escapism, and I think we

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Speaker 1: really sort it out, and you know, we were like

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Speaker 1: on zoom calls and we kind of wanted that alternate lifestyle.

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Speaker 1: But I also think it's been rumbling on in the

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Speaker 1: background through pop culture as well. You look at like

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Speaker 1: the Kudashians, for example, who are a product that sells

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Speaker 1: glamorous motherhood, an easy motherhood. You know, you don't see

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Speaker 1: the nannies and you don't see the things happening. They

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Speaker 1: are occasionally referenced, but this is not a new thing

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Speaker 1: that's just appeared out of nowhere. It's really underwritten by

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Speaker 1: lots of other sort of pop culture politics, reality TV,

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Speaker 1: weird random things like COVID that we can't predict. So

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Speaker 1: I think it's sort of been rambling on for a while.

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Speaker 2: Would you consider it like mostly an American phenomenon. It's

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Speaker 2: certainly been boosted by Instagram, because you're right, a big

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Speaker 2: part of the trad wife aesthetic is the aesthetics. So

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Speaker 2: Michelle Dugger certainly didn't tick that box because no one

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Speaker 2: wanted to look that kind of amish depiction of what

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Speaker 2: a traditional wife looks like. There's also this overlay of

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Speaker 2: hotness to treadwives, isn't there. How do you say that?

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Speaker 1: Well, it's kind of a man's dream, right, It's like

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Speaker 1: she can have all of my children that I impregnate her with,

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Speaker 1: and she's a beauty queen and she turns out well,

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Speaker 1: and she looks like this while she's on my arm,

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Speaker 1: and that's the perfect presentation of like American family values,

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Speaker 1: which I think you're right. I think in the US

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Speaker 1: the emphasis on family is so strong, particularly as you

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Speaker 1: know a foreigner landing here from the UK. Comparatively, it's

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Speaker 1: really core to existence and also to existence since you know,

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Speaker 1: the pioneers went west, it was drawing a boundary of

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Speaker 1: your own land and building a house on it. And

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Speaker 1: you know, the politics, the darker politics, you know, obviously

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Speaker 1: exists alongside that, building a house on it and filling

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Speaker 1: it with your family and pro creating this brilliant, pioneering

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Speaker 1: American society. So it's really built on that. And you

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Speaker 1: can hear it as well in the current election from

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Speaker 1: the Republicans talking about the importance of family and JD.

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Speaker 1: Vance talking about Kamala Harris not having a steak in

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Speaker 1: the world because she doesn't have children, and it all

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Speaker 1: harks back to this importance placed on nuclear, heterosexual family

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Speaker 1: by a certain aspect of American society.

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Speaker 2: How does Mormonism overlay because I've been thinking about past

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Speaker 2: incarnations of this. Of course, there was Martha Stewart, who

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Speaker 2: was that sort of waspy, whitebread homemaker, you know, making

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Speaker 2: it all look aesthetically pleasing, but there wasn't the hotness

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Speaker 2: with her. And then there was Nigella Lawson, which is

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Speaker 2: of course, you know, her whole tongue in cheek domestic

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Speaker 2: Goddess series in her book. But that felt different because

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Speaker 2: she was clearly How was that different? Because it was Nigella.

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Speaker 1: Was naughty and is naughty, and she does everything with

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Speaker 1: this wink and she kind of makes shortcuts and she

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Speaker 1: like crushes packets of salt and vinegar crisps on top

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Speaker 1: of her dinner parties, pasta bake that she's just done,

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Speaker 1: and she like Wham's whole packs of butter into things

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Speaker 1: and yeah, and it's all about it's about being a listen.

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Speaker 1: It's about doing the things that you shouldn't do, which

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Speaker 1: is also within the confines of another sort of femininity.

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Speaker 1: It's not straightforward, but it is about naughty nurse and

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Speaker 1: it's about cutting corners, and it's about sort of making

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Speaker 1: it all look good but being a bit cheeky and

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Speaker 1: probably a great shag, you know, kind of like packaged

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Speaker 1: that with all of that, and that was thrilling in

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Speaker 1: that era. Before that, we had Delia Smith who was

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Speaker 1: like very colored between the lines and it was about

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Speaker 1: baking your cakes in the ark and you do it

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Speaker 1: like this and you follow the instructions and she was

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Speaker 1: very posh. And then Nigella was yeah, cheeky and right.

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Speaker 2: So Nigella was sexy, but it wasn't that traditional model

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Speaker 2: of femininity with I guess it would be cool, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's often referred to as modesty.

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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. And also the new wave of tradwives or

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Speaker 1: the wave of tradwise and not sexual. There is no

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Speaker 1: sexuality to them at all. They're very beautiful, but there's

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Speaker 1: no sexuality.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk about Hannah. Hannah Nielman is unequivocally the

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Speaker 2: queen of tradwives. How did you first hear about bellerin

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Speaker 2: a farm and Hannah?

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Speaker 1: I first heard about her when she did the New

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Speaker 1: York Times interview in January February, shortly after or during

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Speaker 1: the pageant, when she was twelve days postpartum, and that

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Speaker 1: went pretty viral. And then in those months after, I

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Speaker 1: started getting fed loads of content by her, and my

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Speaker 1: friends were sending me things like how funny is this?

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Speaker 1: And it would be Nara Smith making chewing gum and

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Speaker 1: talking in this sort of really breathy voice, and it

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Speaker 1: all just seemed quite mad and you couldn't really believe it.

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Speaker 2: How far away was it from your life?

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Speaker 3: Like?

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Speaker 2: How old are you? What's your life like? I'm interested

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Speaker 2: in the juxtaposition very different.

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Speaker 1: I'm twenty nine and I now live in New York,

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Speaker 1: but had been living in London at the beginning of

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Speaker 1: the year, and I don't have any children and I'm

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Speaker 1: not married.

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Speaker 2: And you have a career outside that, and I have a.

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Speaker 1: Career, and I am unmarried and childless at the same

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Speaker 1: age as my mom was when she was married and

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Speaker 1: with children, So there's a diversion there. And I had

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Speaker 1: lots of conversations with my mum actually through this, because

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Speaker 1: she was like, I'm a trad wife. I was a

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Speaker 1: trad wife, you know. She stayed at home for a

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Speaker 1: period of time to look after us. So we had

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Speaker 1: lots of conversations about that. And a lot of the

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Speaker 1: pushback from the article and the controversy from the people

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Speaker 1: who felt it was so was around the fact that

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Speaker 1: I was in some way judging their lifestyle who had

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Speaker 1: chosen these traditional models. But from conversations with my mom

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Speaker 1: and her friends and other people, it is a structure

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Speaker 1: that enables, not always, but enables for the issues. You know,

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Speaker 1: like you can and this is not my parents, just

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Speaker 1: for the record, but not having access to money in

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Speaker 1: a household has the potential to lead to really serious

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Speaker 1: financial and emotional abuse. Or not having a boss separate

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Speaker 1: to your husband or your children can also do the same.

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Speaker 1: This is a structure that actually deserves more scrutiny. That's

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Speaker 1: not to say that we can't choose it, But I

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Speaker 1: do think and still believe now despite the endless DMS

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Speaker 1: that I received otherwise, but I still do believe that

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Speaker 1: it deserves a little bit more eyebrow raising because we've

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Speaker 1: seen it before, We've been sold this before, and we've

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Speaker 1: been missold it before, and I think that we just

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Speaker 1: need to slightly go into it, like not completely blinkered

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Speaker 1: by what's happened previously.

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Speaker 2: Before I ask you about your interview with the Nielmans.

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Speaker 2: For anyone who's not familiar with Hannah and Bellerina Farm,

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Speaker 2: can you tell us who she was before she became

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Speaker 2: famous as Bellerina Farm. What's her origin story.

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Speaker 1: She was born into a Mormon family sort of near

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Speaker 1: to Salt Lake City, and she was the eighth of

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Speaker 1: nine children, and they were pretty working class family. They

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Speaker 1: owned a sort of mum and pop flower shop basically,

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Speaker 1: and she was homeschooled and gravitated very naturally towards ballet.

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Speaker 1: Her brothers actually both went on to have a really

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Speaker 1: successful shed building company, so they were really naturally entrepreneurial family,

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Speaker 1: as with the parents, and so she gravitated towards ballet,

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Speaker 1: and over various summer holidays got these sort of summer

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Speaker 1: camps at Juilliard and eventually qualified to do ballet at Juilliard,

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Speaker 1: which is this incredibly prestigious performing art school in New

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Speaker 1: York on the Upper Side West Side.

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Speaker 2: One of the and I'm not going to contradict, you

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Speaker 2: don't worry anyway, super fancy and it's very lofty. And

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Speaker 2: that's what she did. And she wanted to be a ballerina,

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Speaker 2: and she wanted to live in New York City, which

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Speaker 2: seemed wild. You know, it's a long way from Utah,

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Speaker 2: and it's a long way from Mormon life, though she

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Speaker 2: did live with other Mormon girls who she knew from church.

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Speaker 2: Do we know much about her life in New York

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Speaker 2: when she was studying ballet, It.

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Speaker 1: Was pretty church orientated, and I think in and culture

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Speaker 1: that is quite important.

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Speaker 2: So it wasn't a sex in the city, you know,

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Speaker 2: coming to New York and living that kind of carry

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Speaker 2: breadshare life.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't a sex in the city life. But she

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Speaker 1: also said like something along the lines of New York

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Speaker 1: was my dream and New York is where I wanted

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Speaker 1: to be, So there obviously was a bit of that

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Speaker 1: in her. And she said, when they still go back

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Speaker 1: now with all the kids they go back every year

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Speaker 1: or whatever. She was like, I love it. I just

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Speaker 1: love the energy, and I love the vibe and I

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Speaker 1: love being there. So she was obviously really taken by it.

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Speaker 1: And you know, if you're taken by New York, then

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Speaker 1: you are also taken by the sort of sex and

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Speaker 1: city late night it's lots going on kind of vibe

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Speaker 1: because that's everywhere. It is sort of implicit in the

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Speaker 1: city too.

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Speaker 2: So what about Daniel Nielman, Where did he grow up?

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Speaker 2: He had similar Mormon origins, but he grew up in

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Speaker 2: a very different way.

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Speaker 1: He grew up in a very very rich family. So

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Speaker 1: his father was the founder of Jet Blue, which is

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Speaker 1: an airline in the US, and various others and was

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Speaker 1: incredibly successful. And they grew up in Connecticut, which is

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Speaker 1: real sort of commuter belt. You know, there are so

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Speaker 1: many associations with Connecticut, and he would get on the

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Speaker 1: train every day and go to New York. And Daniel,

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Speaker 1: as a teenager would get on the train with his

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Speaker 1: friends and go to the city. And so he lived

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Speaker 1: a life that was closer to it all and a

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Speaker 1: bit more integrated, I suppose, with secular culture. And they

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Speaker 1: had a suburban life. They didn't have any animals. They

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Speaker 1: had no animals. He had no family who were farmers,

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Speaker 1: but he dreamt of this big wildlife on a farm

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Speaker 1: way way out in the west. They had come from

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Speaker 1: Utah though his family and they have since returned there,

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Speaker 1: so they had a base there. And he at the

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Speaker 1: time was at university in Utah when he met Hannah

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Speaker 1: and was looking. I suppose to work at one of

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Speaker 1: his father's companies. That's what he was going to graduate onto.

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Speaker 1: How did they meet, So, as they told me when

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Speaker 1: I was there, they met a basketball game, like a

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Speaker 1: college basketball game. They were introduced by mutual friends.

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Speaker 3: So we're ment of the basketball game.

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Speaker 2: I was doing Thanksgiving break.

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Speaker 3: I was going to school in New York and Daniel

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Speaker 3: was going to school in Utah, so we kind of

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Speaker 3: like switched starts. So I went. I went back to

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Speaker 3: school the following weekend.

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Speaker 1: Daniel was like, oh my god, yes, let's go. I

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Speaker 1: want to marry this woman.

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Speaker 5: I was instantly smitten.

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Speaker 1: Hannah didn't want to date, didn't want to do that yet.

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Speaker 3: It took Hannah longer to realize.

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Speaker 6: That we were so mad.

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Speaker 1: He texted her. He was like, please commendate with me.

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Speaker 1: She said no for six months.

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Speaker 5: So we didn't see each other for six months.

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Speaker 6: After the first night we met, she.

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Speaker 1: Was back in Utah and mentioned to him that she

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Speaker 1: was flying to New York City on this flight from

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Speaker 1: Salt Lake and he said, oh, that's so funny. I'm

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Speaker 1: on the same flight. So they went and they checked

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Speaker 1: in and she was like, this is so weird. We

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Speaker 1: were sitting on seats next to each other, and he

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Speaker 1: had made a call to jat Blue, which is the

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Speaker 1: airline they're flying with.

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Speaker 2: Which had found mind.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which as father owned, and they sat next to

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Speaker 1: each other, and that was their first proper date, which

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Speaker 1: is a five and a half hour it's quite a

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Speaker 1: long flight. I have done it, So five and a

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Speaker 1: half hour flight, it's quite a long date where you

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Speaker 1: you can't go anywhere. And that was their first date.

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Speaker 2: And so how did things progress from there? Because it's

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Speaker 2: interesting when you said she didn't want to date, she

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Speaker 2: clearly knew for her what dating meant and that it

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Speaker 2: would probably lead to marriage, which would lead to children,

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Speaker 2: and she was still focused on her career.

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Speaker 1: And this is a Mormon culture too, so you're right,

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Speaker 1: it's that you don't date in the same way as

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Speaker 1: I would. For example, it's much more proper, and it's

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Speaker 1: much more chased, and it's much more you have to

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Speaker 1: be respectable. So often it leads to marriage. And that

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have been an unusual time for them to have

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Speaker 1: got married. In fact, lots of people get married earlier.

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Speaker 1: Because one Yeah, and they dated and he said, we

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Speaker 1: need to get married, we need to get married, and

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Speaker 1: she wanted to date for a year and then finish

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Speaker 1: her course and then get married, and he said that's

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Speaker 1: not going to work. So they got married three months later.

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Speaker 2: Why do you think he said that? Is that because

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Speaker 2: the subtext to me on that was that I can't

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Speaker 2: wait that long to have sex with you.

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Speaker 1: I did also think.

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Speaker 2: That, Yeah, because it's like when he said that won't

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Speaker 2: work for me, I mean like, there's not a lot

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Speaker 2: of guys who are like, I really want to get married.

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Speaker 2: It's urgent.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And they also said, you know, we were so

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Speaker 1: in love with each other and we couldn't stay away

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Speaker 1: from each other. Yeah, So that is some of the

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Speaker 1: subtexts that I read too. But I also think that

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Speaker 1: he probably just wanted to lock it down. Yeah. She

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Speaker 1: was a cat. She's gorgeous, and she comes from a

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Speaker 1: good family in Utah and also had the sort of

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Speaker 1: glamour of New York too, which reflected his own life

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Speaker 1: in a way. I mean, I'm just reading into what

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Speaker 1: they told me. So this is just me speculating, But

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Speaker 1: I think he just wanted to lock it down. And

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Speaker 1: I wonder if she did a bit as well. You know,

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Speaker 1: it wouldn't have been respectable necessarily for her to have

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Speaker 1: dated for a year. She wasn't an unwilling participant in

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Speaker 1: all of this, but that was just how the stick went.

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Speaker 1: That was the bit that they did and the story

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Speaker 1: that they told. So it's difficult to know who felt what.

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Speaker 2: When I like that it subverts that idea of the

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Speaker 2: you know, young woman trying to lock down the rich

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Speaker 2: guy and him wanting to keep his freedom until the

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Speaker 2: last possible minute. He was very much the one who

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Speaker 2: wanted the commitment. And so then what happened after they

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Speaker 2: got married. Did she give up her dancing career?

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Speaker 1: Well, they stayed in New York for a couple of years,

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Speaker 1: and they had their first and second child there, I think,

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Speaker 1: and then they moved to Brazil because Daniel was made

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Speaker 1: the chairman of one of his father's companies, which is

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Speaker 1: a security business. And Brazil's quite a big outlet finally

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Speaker 1: for Mormon missions, so instead of a gap year, a

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Speaker 1: lot of Mormons go and do mission and they work

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Speaker 1: with local community and they volunteer and they also sort

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Speaker 1: of spread the word of the Latter day Saints. So

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Speaker 1: there's a large community of Mormons in Brazil, and they

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Speaker 1: also have a lot of business there. So they went

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Speaker 1: to live there and she had a third child, and

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Speaker 1: then that is when she gave up ballet.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's amazing. There's not a lot of dancers

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Speaker 2: who come back even after one child, you know, you

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Speaker 2: writing your piece that she kept dancing, and she stayed

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Speaker 2: at Juilliard even when she was pregnant, and was the

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Speaker 2: first dancer to do so.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean she said that it was really difficult.

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Speaker 1: It was like it's one of those things that you

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Speaker 1: just can't do when you have babies and when you

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00:22:16,845 --> 00:22:21,925
Speaker 1: have children, which is a universal experience, I'm sure for

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Speaker 1: women that it's a difficult career to continue, not impossible,

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Speaker 1: a bit difficult. And so I think there was some

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Speaker 1: relief when she decided to give it up, but I

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Speaker 1: went back through her blogs. She had this blog when

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Speaker 1: they moved there and in the early days of her

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Speaker 1: career as a sort of online influencer, I suppose. And

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Speaker 1: it's really cute. It's just an account, a really honest

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Speaker 1: written account of her days and what she does and

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Speaker 1: having babies. And there was real heartbreak about her figuring

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Speaker 1: out her new identity as a mother and the long

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Speaker 1: days with the children. And as the blog post goes on,

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Speaker 1: she says something like, you know, I made the decision

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Speaker 1: not to see this as a sacrifice. I am making

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Speaker 1: the active decision to see this as a gift that

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Speaker 1: I am bringing down the souls from heaven and embodying

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Speaker 1: them in my children. And we are creating something bigger,

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Speaker 1: And we are creating a legacy, a family legacy. And

405
00:23:26,725 --> 00:23:29,845
Speaker 1: how important is that? And there's nothing else more important.

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Speaker 1: So you could see the shift from her really struggling

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Speaker 1: with it and losing that identity of her own as

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Speaker 1: a ballerina, to then reframing it essentially.

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Speaker 2: In a moment. Bellerina farm is big business and Hannah

410
00:23:45,965 --> 00:23:49,685
Speaker 2: and Daniel are super savvy. So is the treadwife thing

411
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Speaker 2: really just a marketing tool or are they for real.

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Speaker 2: More of my conversation with journalist Megan Agnew in just

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Speaker 2: a tick. So I didn't realize that she had an

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Speaker 2: online presence before she got married and before Ballerina Farm

415
00:24:05,925 --> 00:24:09,205
Speaker 2: was born. How was that brand, Ballerina Farm born.

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Speaker 1: The name or the brand itself or both.

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Speaker 2: Well both of it? Like how did she go? You know?

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Speaker 2: I know his dream was to live in a farm,

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Speaker 2: hers wasn't, and they ended up doing it, which a

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Speaker 2: lot of couples make sacrifices like that to pursue one

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00:24:22,325 --> 00:24:24,445
Speaker 2: partner's dream and then the other one does often get

422
00:24:24,485 --> 00:24:26,965
Speaker 2: on board with it. But how did that happen? And

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Speaker 2: where did Bellerina Farm come from? Because by the time

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Speaker 2: I heard of it, it was just this huge viral

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Speaker 2: sensation and she had millions of followers.

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Speaker 1: It was a really conscious maneuver. So she had been

427
00:24:40,645 --> 00:24:43,765
Speaker 1: blogging and while they were in Brazil, she really fell

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00:24:43,805 --> 00:24:46,205
Speaker 1: in love with animals and farming. So, as you say,

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Speaker 1: this was a transition that was made voluntarily, like she

430
00:24:50,005 --> 00:24:52,165
Speaker 1: wasn't dragged onto the farm in the middle of Utah.

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00:24:52,645 --> 00:24:57,205
Speaker 1: So then they decide to move back and they buy

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00:24:57,245 --> 00:25:01,445
Speaker 1: this first farm, and she starts blogging about it and

433
00:25:01,485 --> 00:25:03,525
Speaker 1: there's not even there's not running water on this farm.

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Speaker 1: There's no building, there's nothing. It's like completely raw land.

435
00:25:08,485 --> 00:25:11,725
Speaker 1: And every every day after Daniel's work and after the

436
00:25:11,805 --> 00:25:15,045
Speaker 1: kids have done school, they drove an hour there from

437
00:25:15,045 --> 00:25:19,525
Speaker 1: this basement apartment they were renting, and she cooked meals

438
00:25:19,605 --> 00:25:23,245
Speaker 1: on an open fire basically, and Daniel was like building

439
00:25:23,245 --> 00:25:26,445
Speaker 1: this house with his bare hands, and they said it

440
00:25:26,485 --> 00:25:30,765
Speaker 1: was great content. They got loads of followers, and then

441
00:25:30,925 --> 00:25:33,205
Speaker 1: they had this terrible fire in the summer and it

442
00:25:33,325 --> 00:25:36,885
Speaker 1: burnt everything they'd done. It just burnt to the ground,

443
00:25:37,645 --> 00:25:41,245
Speaker 1: and it got them even more followers. And Hannah was like,

444
00:25:41,325 --> 00:25:43,285
Speaker 1: oh no, I think after the fire it went from

445
00:25:43,365 --> 00:25:46,445
Speaker 1: ten thousand to fourteen thousand, and Daniel was like, no, no, no,

446
00:25:46,485 --> 00:25:48,845
Speaker 1: it was eleven thousand to seventeen thousand.

447
00:25:49,285 --> 00:25:54,765
Speaker 2: Oh wow. So they've always seen it as a mark

448
00:25:54,805 --> 00:25:57,805
Speaker 2: of what is it Their entrepreneur is his entrepreneurial brain

449
00:25:57,885 --> 00:26:02,005
Speaker 2: and clearly hers too, that had seen it very consciously.

450
00:26:02,085 --> 00:26:03,765
Speaker 2: It's not a happy accident.

451
00:26:04,045 --> 00:26:08,205
Speaker 1: No, And she did courses, you know, online internet courses

452
00:26:08,245 --> 00:26:12,045
Speaker 1: to learn how to do it properly. This enabled their

453
00:26:12,125 --> 00:26:16,365
Speaker 1: dream essentially, or his initially, you know, this was the

454
00:26:16,445 --> 00:26:23,565
Speaker 1: way to bankroll a really traditional small holding which you

455
00:26:23,765 --> 00:26:30,045
Speaker 1: cannot uphold just by farming eighty cows. That's impossible in America.

456
00:26:30,125 --> 00:26:34,125
Speaker 2: So she was monetizing the account early on what sort

457
00:26:34,125 --> 00:26:35,645
Speaker 2: of brands wanted to work with her.

458
00:26:36,125 --> 00:26:40,885
Speaker 1: They were sort of doing like tee tat, like homewear

459
00:26:41,045 --> 00:26:45,045
Speaker 1: things and some food things, and now they do things

460
00:26:45,125 --> 00:26:49,565
Speaker 1: like protein shakes and like it's sort of an FedEx,

461
00:26:50,445 --> 00:26:54,685
Speaker 1: so it's much more mainstream. But it was planned, but

462
00:26:54,725 --> 00:26:57,645
Speaker 1: they were also I think it just worked, you know,

463
00:26:57,725 --> 00:26:59,965
Speaker 1: like it just worked because it was beautiful and it

464
00:27:00,045 --> 00:27:04,125
Speaker 1: was an amazing location. And then they bought after the fire,

465
00:27:04,645 --> 00:27:07,165
Speaker 1: they bought this other piece of land which then went

466
00:27:07,205 --> 00:27:09,645
Speaker 1: on to become Ballerina Farm. And they were trying to

467
00:27:09,645 --> 00:27:11,925
Speaker 1: figure out a name, and her brother was there, who

468
00:27:12,005 --> 00:27:15,085
Speaker 1: was this entrepreneur, and he said, what about Ballerina Farm,

469
00:27:15,285 --> 00:27:19,605
Speaker 1: because obviously she had been a ballerina and that's what

470
00:27:19,645 --> 00:27:20,085
Speaker 1: it is.

471
00:27:21,005 --> 00:27:23,845
Speaker 2: I thought that was really interesting, Megan, because you know,

472
00:27:24,125 --> 00:27:27,725
Speaker 2: you describe Daniel Nielman as an all American stake of

473
00:27:27,765 --> 00:27:31,925
Speaker 2: her husband square Jewed Denham Clad, you know, from this

474
00:27:32,045 --> 00:27:37,325
Speaker 2: conservative Mormon family, and in some ways, the idea of

475
00:27:37,365 --> 00:27:41,045
Speaker 2: calling your farm Ballerina farm could be seen to be

476
00:27:41,205 --> 00:27:45,885
Speaker 2: quite emasculating or quite feminizing, but he was into it.

477
00:27:45,925 --> 00:27:48,045
Speaker 2: Is that because he understood the value of marketing.

478
00:27:48,965 --> 00:27:52,765
Speaker 1: I think there are two reasons. One is that Hannah

479
00:27:52,845 --> 00:27:56,605
Speaker 1: was the face, you know, and she's also the brains,

480
00:27:56,725 --> 00:27:58,605
Speaker 1: but she was the face of it. She's head of marketing.

481
00:27:59,045 --> 00:28:00,845
Speaker 2: When you say she's the brains, what do you mean.

482
00:28:01,365 --> 00:28:04,565
Speaker 1: She understands social media in a way that Daniel doesn't.

483
00:28:04,645 --> 00:28:07,525
Speaker 1: She understands it really thoroughly, and she understands what other

484
00:28:07,565 --> 00:28:11,605
Speaker 1: people are doing and what works, and she's very engaged

485
00:28:12,365 --> 00:28:14,165
Speaker 1: with it all. And she's the one who uploads all

486
00:28:14,165 --> 00:28:19,165
Speaker 1: the content. But Daniel is the one who makes, from

487
00:28:19,245 --> 00:28:24,445
Speaker 1: what I understand, the main business decisions. So I think

488
00:28:24,485 --> 00:28:26,805
Speaker 1: that he understood that the way that they were going

489
00:28:26,845 --> 00:28:30,125
Speaker 1: to sell it was through her. And the second reason

490
00:28:30,245 --> 00:28:32,485
Speaker 1: is I think that central to the brand is the

491
00:28:32,485 --> 00:28:35,045
Speaker 1: fact that she went to Juilliard, and is the fact

492
00:28:35,045 --> 00:28:39,085
Speaker 1: that she no longer is a vallerina. You know, is

493
00:28:39,125 --> 00:28:44,245
Speaker 1: there a more worthy decision as a super talented, qualified

494
00:28:44,365 --> 00:28:48,725
Speaker 1: woman than to choose looking after and bringing up your children.

495
00:28:49,245 --> 00:28:52,885
Speaker 2: So self sacrifice becomes part of the origin story as well.

496
00:28:53,365 --> 00:28:58,045
Speaker 1: And it always has been every bio, every interview is

497
00:28:58,285 --> 00:29:01,005
Speaker 1: absolutely central. The fact that she went to Juilliard and

498
00:29:01,045 --> 00:29:04,645
Speaker 1: then gave up is one hundred per central to the

499
00:29:04,685 --> 00:29:05,605
Speaker 1: brand from the beginning.

500
00:29:06,325 --> 00:29:09,965
Speaker 2: I'm interested to know whether Daniel is an actual farmer

501
00:29:10,125 --> 00:29:12,205
Speaker 2: or is he just cause playing being a farmer.

502
00:29:13,125 --> 00:29:16,285
Speaker 1: Now he's an actual farmer. He's out on the farm

503
00:29:16,325 --> 00:29:20,405
Speaker 1: all the time, and he loves it. He absolutely loves it.

504
00:29:20,485 --> 00:29:23,445
Speaker 1: He loves all the animals, and he loves all the land,

505
00:29:23,525 --> 00:29:25,605
Speaker 1: and he loves all the stuff. He called himself an

506
00:29:25,645 --> 00:29:29,845
Speaker 1: agricultural missionary though, so not only is it about farming,

507
00:29:29,885 --> 00:29:33,605
Speaker 1: but it's about sharing the farming with other people and

508
00:29:33,765 --> 00:29:38,205
Speaker 1: encouraging people to start their own small farms and repopulate

509
00:29:38,245 --> 00:29:41,765
Speaker 1: America with these homesteads, which I did say to him,

510
00:29:42,245 --> 00:29:46,085
Speaker 1: that's financially impossible, though, how are you suggesting people do it?

511
00:29:46,125 --> 00:29:48,245
Speaker 1: And he was like, yeah, well, you know, social media

512
00:29:48,285 --> 00:29:51,045
Speaker 1: pays for all of our basically allows us to have

513
00:29:51,125 --> 00:29:53,645
Speaker 1: this farm, and it's a thing that allows us to

514
00:29:53,805 --> 00:29:55,805
Speaker 1: charge four times more for a pint of milk than

515
00:29:55,805 --> 00:29:56,525
Speaker 1: the farmer down.

516
00:29:56,405 --> 00:30:00,445
Speaker 2: The road or a steak, so it's not sustainable on

517
00:30:00,485 --> 00:30:04,205
Speaker 2: its own. The income or the revenue comes from social

518
00:30:04,885 --> 00:30:06,885
Speaker 2: and from her Instagram.

519
00:30:06,765 --> 00:30:09,885
Speaker 1: And it comes from being able to sell products mark

520
00:30:09,965 --> 00:30:13,925
Speaker 1: them up by five times, four times more than if

521
00:30:14,085 --> 00:30:16,205
Speaker 1: I had a milk farm.

522
00:30:16,165 --> 00:30:19,205
Speaker 2: Or and you were just so much year old Jerry had.

523
00:30:19,045 --> 00:30:22,965
Speaker 1: A milk farm, right, And I said, like, you know,

524
00:30:23,965 --> 00:30:27,205
Speaker 1: about what if Jerry doesn't have a pageant, queen wife

525
00:30:27,365 --> 00:30:30,445
Speaker 1: and eight beautiful children. And he was like, well, yeah,

526
00:30:30,525 --> 00:30:33,605
Speaker 1: well you know, social media isn't for everyone. So yeah,

527
00:30:33,845 --> 00:30:38,085
Speaker 1: he was quite deluded, if I'm big completely honest in

528
00:30:38,805 --> 00:30:42,085
Speaker 1: like what exactly he was promoting, because the thing that

529
00:30:42,125 --> 00:30:46,005
Speaker 1: he was promoting, that is impossible unless you're really hot.

530
00:30:46,445 --> 00:30:50,925
Speaker 2: Over the years that they have been, you know, working

531
00:30:50,965 --> 00:30:52,965
Speaker 2: under the brand Ballerina Farm and on that farm and

532
00:30:53,005 --> 00:30:57,045
Speaker 2: having all the babies are there's certain points where things

533
00:30:57,245 --> 00:31:00,845
Speaker 2: went viral and their their fame and their followers jumped.

534
00:31:01,325 --> 00:31:04,965
Speaker 1: The pageant definitely was because that was quite recently. The

535
00:31:05,005 --> 00:31:08,485
Speaker 1: pageant that was January of this year. Yeah, it was

536
00:31:08,565 --> 00:31:11,685
Speaker 1: recent and then I don't know. There have definitely been

537
00:31:11,725 --> 00:31:16,325
Speaker 1: these controversies around her not looking after her children properly

538
00:31:16,365 --> 00:31:20,445
Speaker 1: and then running too wild or them abusing animals. She

539
00:31:20,485 --> 00:31:24,045
Speaker 1: said that she dropped kicked to cockrel across the farmyard

540
00:31:24,125 --> 00:31:26,165
Speaker 1: because it had packed one of her children and it

541
00:31:26,245 --> 00:31:28,805
Speaker 1: drew blood. So everyone was pretty hurt up about that.

542
00:31:29,445 --> 00:31:31,885
Speaker 1: And then I think COVID was the thing that really

543
00:31:32,125 --> 00:31:35,445
Speaker 1: like propels them upwards. In her recipes, she was making

544
00:31:35,485 --> 00:31:38,205
Speaker 1: a lot of sour dough and churning a lot of butter,

545
00:31:38,325 --> 00:31:40,685
Speaker 1: and so people went to have that.

546
00:31:40,925 --> 00:31:43,045
Speaker 7: And then we're going to mix the starter with the

547
00:31:43,125 --> 00:31:48,125
Speaker 7: water until it's completely dissolved in nice and milky. Then

548
00:31:48,165 --> 00:31:52,365
Speaker 7: we're going to add our flour. We're going to mix

549
00:31:52,405 --> 00:31:54,445
Speaker 7: it together, and then I just need it with my

550
00:31:54,565 --> 00:31:57,365
Speaker 7: hand because I feel like that's the easiest until it's

551
00:31:57,525 --> 00:31:58,365
Speaker 7: nice and smooth.

552
00:31:59,325 --> 00:32:01,885
Speaker 2: This idea of the tread wife in the case of

553
00:32:01,965 --> 00:32:06,045
Speaker 2: Narasmith and of Hannah, this obsession with building or making

554
00:32:06,085 --> 00:32:09,005
Speaker 2: things from scratch. Can you talk a little bit about that,

555
00:32:09,125 --> 00:32:12,405
Speaker 2: because I mean, I know Narra Smith makes bubblegummy.

556
00:32:12,845 --> 00:32:15,645
Speaker 6: I poured some powdered sugar on some waxed paper and

557
00:32:15,925 --> 00:32:19,125
Speaker 6: created a well before combining my gumbased with some corn

558
00:32:19,205 --> 00:32:21,765
Speaker 6: syrup and slowly melting it down. And so that was

559
00:32:21,805 --> 00:32:24,485
Speaker 6: all melted, I gave it a good stir and poured

560
00:32:24,525 --> 00:32:28,325
Speaker 6: it into my little powdered sugar well as I created, just.

561
00:32:28,285 --> 00:32:31,045
Speaker 2: Like it's almost a joke. Why don't you just go

562
00:32:31,125 --> 00:32:32,885
Speaker 2: and buy some butter? Why do you have to make

563
00:32:32,965 --> 00:32:36,325
Speaker 2: better from scratch? Particularly when you have eight children? Like,

564
00:32:36,365 --> 00:32:38,845
Speaker 2: what's that about? Is that just a weird flex or

565
00:32:38,885 --> 00:32:40,005
Speaker 2: it's an ideology.

566
00:32:40,525 --> 00:32:43,845
Speaker 1: I think the Narasmeth thing is like more knowing, and

567
00:32:43,885 --> 00:32:45,925
Speaker 1: I think it's a bit more baiting people, and it's

568
00:32:46,005 --> 00:32:48,205
Speaker 1: quite silly, I hope.

569
00:32:48,925 --> 00:32:50,925
Speaker 2: But does Hannah do the same thing. I mean there aren't.

570
00:32:50,925 --> 00:32:53,525
Speaker 2: They don't have processed food, they don't have ready made meals.

571
00:32:53,685 --> 00:32:55,965
Speaker 2: She does make it? Does she make everything from scratch?

572
00:32:56,325 --> 00:33:00,005
Speaker 1: Yeah? I said, do you never get like a cheeky pizza?

573
00:33:00,525 --> 00:33:03,125
Speaker 1: She's like, no, no, don't. We don't do ready meals.

574
00:33:03,445 --> 00:33:07,245
Speaker 1: I think more widely in the US, so much is

575
00:33:07,285 --> 00:33:10,685
Speaker 1: processed and so much comes from big farms in a

576
00:33:10,725 --> 00:33:14,445
Speaker 1: way that I wasn't actually ready for moving from the UK.

577
00:33:14,685 --> 00:33:20,045
Speaker 1: It's extraordinary how difficult it is to get good raw produce,

578
00:33:20,645 --> 00:33:25,525
Speaker 1: and so I think here there's a real desire to

579
00:33:25,565 --> 00:33:29,285
Speaker 1: see and then hopefully consume that sort of cooking and

580
00:33:29,325 --> 00:33:32,845
Speaker 1: that way of life. But I think, as we've touched

581
00:33:32,845 --> 00:33:35,605
Speaker 1: on a number of times, it's about this effortlessness, and

582
00:33:35,645 --> 00:33:39,925
Speaker 1: it's about providing, and it's about your role as a

583
00:33:39,965 --> 00:33:43,285
Speaker 1: woman to feed and nourish your children and your family

584
00:33:43,325 --> 00:33:46,165
Speaker 1: in a way that is healthy and not cheating.

585
00:33:47,005 --> 00:33:50,125
Speaker 2: That's what's interesting to me because there's the implied judgment

586
00:33:50,285 --> 00:33:54,925
Speaker 2: of cheating. And when she said to you, no, we

587
00:33:55,005 --> 00:33:59,525
Speaker 2: don't do that. We don't do ready meals, I mean

588
00:33:59,685 --> 00:34:02,725
Speaker 2: even bread, Like I wouldn't even consider bread a ready meal.

589
00:34:02,725 --> 00:34:05,525
Speaker 2: I would consider bread of staple or pasta, or butter

590
00:34:05,845 --> 00:34:09,645
Speaker 2: or cheese. It's everything from scrap, which.

591
00:34:10,685 --> 00:34:14,205
Speaker 1: Like why, it's a really good question.

592
00:34:14,045 --> 00:34:16,045
Speaker 2: Because it's kind of saying I'm better than you, isn't it?

593
00:34:16,165 --> 00:34:20,365
Speaker 2: Or Am I being defensive of my storeboard butter and bread.

594
00:34:21,965 --> 00:34:26,685
Speaker 1: I think in a way it is. Yes. I think

595
00:34:26,725 --> 00:34:28,565
Speaker 1: what she's saying is this is how it's meant to

596
00:34:28,605 --> 00:34:31,165
Speaker 1: be right, this is how family life is meant to be,

597
00:34:31,285 --> 00:34:35,405
Speaker 1: and it's about and it should be away from modernity

598
00:34:35,485 --> 00:34:39,285
Speaker 1: in some way and things that are not good for

599
00:34:39,365 --> 00:34:44,325
Speaker 1: your children. And that's it's so enthrined in Mormon teachings too,

600
00:34:44,445 --> 00:34:48,645
Speaker 1: which is this domesticity of the wife and also this

601
00:34:48,805 --> 00:34:51,845
Speaker 1: performed effortlessness of she can do it, and she never

602
00:34:51,885 --> 00:34:56,325
Speaker 1: complains and it's like the last ten years was kind

603
00:34:56,365 --> 00:34:59,885
Speaker 1: of missed on her. And I said, you know, how

604
00:34:59,885 --> 00:35:02,165
Speaker 1: do you feel about all the women who exactly feel

605
00:35:02,205 --> 00:35:04,525
Speaker 1: like this is judging in some way and are really

606
00:35:04,565 --> 00:35:08,245
Speaker 1: angry about that. And she completely missed the point of

607
00:35:08,285 --> 00:35:11,165
Speaker 1: the question and said, you know, I hope that what

608
00:35:11,205 --> 00:35:14,445
Speaker 1: I'm doing encourages women to see how lovely it is

609
00:35:14,485 --> 00:35:18,085
Speaker 1: to cook lovely males for your family, But that's kind

610
00:35:18,085 --> 00:35:19,725
Speaker 1: of not the point because a lot of people don't

611
00:35:19,765 --> 00:35:22,165
Speaker 1: have time to do that. Most people don't.

612
00:35:23,205 --> 00:35:25,965
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the word privilege is sometimes overused, but

613
00:35:26,165 --> 00:35:30,925
Speaker 2: this whole idea relies on women doing nothing or someone.

614
00:35:31,045 --> 00:35:32,685
Speaker 2: Of course it could be a man, but it never is.

615
00:35:32,725 --> 00:35:36,485
Speaker 2: There aren't trad husbands. Really, it relies on these very

616
00:35:37,005 --> 00:35:40,365
Speaker 2: you know, stereotypical gender roles, doesn't it, and like really

617
00:35:40,485 --> 00:35:44,285
Speaker 2: hardcore gender roles, because the woman is only the carer

618
00:35:44,605 --> 00:35:47,565
Speaker 2: because preparing all that food, I don't even know how

619
00:35:47,565 --> 00:35:51,245
Speaker 2: she has time to look after the children. And that's where,

620
00:35:51,365 --> 00:35:55,205
Speaker 2: you know, the way social media condenses it and flattens

621
00:35:55,205 --> 00:35:57,685
Speaker 2: it in terms of oh, here I made the butter,

622
00:35:57,765 --> 00:36:00,405
Speaker 2: and I churned the butter, and it literally probably is

623
00:36:00,445 --> 00:36:03,685
Speaker 2: shown for two seconds, but that's something that would take

624
00:36:03,765 --> 00:36:04,485
Speaker 2: hours to do.

625
00:36:05,365 --> 00:36:10,085
Speaker 1: And it's also really boring. Again, you know, there's no

626
00:36:10,245 --> 00:36:14,685
Speaker 1: promotion here, like you know, this is eighteen no longer

627
00:36:14,725 --> 00:36:16,725
Speaker 1: than that, who ever knows how many years it is,

628
00:36:16,805 --> 00:36:23,245
Speaker 1: thirty years straight of every day doing the bloody food. Yeah,

629
00:36:23,565 --> 00:36:25,885
Speaker 1: I just I know that some people enjoy it more

630
00:36:25,925 --> 00:36:29,285
Speaker 1: than others. But it's also it has got to get boring.

631
00:36:30,125 --> 00:36:34,885
Speaker 2: Yeah, And there's no acknowledgment. And you know, for her

632
00:36:34,965 --> 00:36:38,485
Speaker 2: perhaps it isn't boring. But it's interesting what you said

633
00:36:38,485 --> 00:36:40,805
Speaker 2: in her blog, how she said I made a conscious

634
00:36:40,805 --> 00:36:43,765
Speaker 2: decision essentially not to complain, to see this as a

635
00:36:43,765 --> 00:36:48,485
Speaker 2: gift and a calling. And so it's the implication, even

636
00:36:48,525 --> 00:36:50,805
Speaker 2: if she might not be doing it consciously, is if

637
00:36:50,845 --> 00:36:53,445
Speaker 2: you don't find this as rewarding as I do, there's

638
00:36:53,445 --> 00:36:56,845
Speaker 2: something wrong with you and you're not a real woman.

639
00:36:57,565 --> 00:37:03,205
Speaker 1: I think that's why it's so controversial, why people get angry, right, Yeah,

640
00:37:03,285 --> 00:37:07,245
Speaker 1: and they have really strongly held believes about saying sex

641
00:37:07,325 --> 00:37:12,045
Speaker 1: marriage and sex before marriage. These have been really really destructive.

642
00:37:12,925 --> 00:37:15,925
Speaker 1: You know, a lot of these belief systems have been

643
00:37:15,965 --> 00:37:21,205
Speaker 1: really destructive, particularly towards women and around abortion and rights

644
00:37:21,245 --> 00:37:25,125
Speaker 1: over our bodies, and you know, part of that, part

645
00:37:25,165 --> 00:37:28,005
Speaker 1: of not having so many rights over our bodies, is

646
00:37:28,045 --> 00:37:31,285
Speaker 1: that we have to continue to give up our rights

647
00:37:31,325 --> 00:37:35,005
Speaker 1: to our children to provide for them at the expense

648
00:37:35,085 --> 00:37:38,325
Speaker 1: of everything else, and the expense of time for yourself,

649
00:37:38,325 --> 00:37:41,885
Speaker 1: which is really important so that you don't go insane

650
00:37:42,485 --> 00:37:45,885
Speaker 1: and so that you slightly remember where you're at to

651
00:37:45,885 --> 00:37:48,285
Speaker 1: collect your thoughts and all of these things. So, yeah,

652
00:37:48,325 --> 00:37:51,845
Speaker 1: it's complicated and it can be dangerous as well.

653
00:37:53,285 --> 00:37:56,805
Speaker 2: After this break, how did Megan actually convince the nailman's

654
00:37:57,005 --> 00:37:59,325
Speaker 2: to give her so much access and let her into

655
00:37:59,405 --> 00:38:02,565
Speaker 2: their house and once she actually gets to bellerin a farm?

656
00:38:03,125 --> 00:38:05,605
Speaker 2: Why is it so hard to get Hannah on her own?

657
00:38:06,405 --> 00:38:11,045
Speaker 2: The rest of our conversation coming up. Tell me about

658
00:38:11,045 --> 00:38:13,685
Speaker 2: the process of securing the interview. Was it easy to

659
00:38:13,685 --> 00:38:15,685
Speaker 2: get then to a huge number of interviews? I mean,

660
00:38:15,725 --> 00:38:18,765
Speaker 2: the Times is obviously very prestigious, but what was it like?

661
00:38:18,805 --> 00:38:22,085
Speaker 2: There's always back and forth negotiating an interview and access.

662
00:38:22,485 --> 00:38:23,125
Speaker 2: How did that play?

663
00:38:23,245 --> 00:38:26,845
Speaker 1: That was my brilliant colleagues in London, my commissioning editor

664
00:38:26,965 --> 00:38:31,605
Speaker 1: at the magazine, who is so good at doing this.

665
00:38:32,405 --> 00:38:34,565
Speaker 1: But my understanding is that they were pretty keen.

666
00:38:35,525 --> 00:38:38,485
Speaker 2: Well expanding their market to the UK, so you can

667
00:38:38,525 --> 00:38:39,845
Speaker 2: see what was you know, for them.

668
00:38:40,205 --> 00:38:44,485
Speaker 1: And they also love England. They were like constantly asking me, like,

669
00:38:45,285 --> 00:38:48,165
Speaker 1: you know, do we turna argar off in in the summer?

670
00:38:49,765 --> 00:38:51,765
Speaker 1: I bet it's really beautiful. Where do you live? What's

671
00:38:51,765 --> 00:38:54,485
Speaker 1: it like? Like they were so fetishistic about England and

672
00:38:54,525 --> 00:38:57,285
Speaker 1: it was kind of an interesting element actually to that

673
00:38:57,445 --> 00:39:03,125
Speaker 1: form of really old fashioned countryside e domesticity that they

674
00:39:03,165 --> 00:39:05,645
Speaker 1: want in habit. Like they were asking, they were really

675
00:39:05,685 --> 00:39:08,045
Speaker 1: desperate to hear in a way that they were like

676
00:39:08,085 --> 00:39:10,805
Speaker 1: taking notes and then they just said come, come for

677
00:39:10,845 --> 00:39:13,125
Speaker 1: the day. Come for the day and we'll do the

678
00:39:13,165 --> 00:39:16,085
Speaker 1: interview and you can see the farm. So they were

679
00:39:16,205 --> 00:39:16,885
Speaker 1: really open.

680
00:39:17,525 --> 00:39:19,685
Speaker 2: You'd seen it all obviously on social media a lot,

681
00:39:19,725 --> 00:39:23,245
Speaker 2: as has anyone who's followed Bellerina Farm. When you actually

682
00:39:23,325 --> 00:39:25,485
Speaker 2: arrived on the farm, what does it look like?

683
00:39:26,485 --> 00:39:30,565
Speaker 1: It's I mean, it's quite near to this skiing town

684
00:39:31,245 --> 00:39:35,085
Speaker 1: which is pretty like bougie. Actually there are like you know,

685
00:39:35,365 --> 00:39:38,165
Speaker 1: flashy cars and stuff as but forty five minutes away,

686
00:39:38,245 --> 00:39:41,125
Speaker 1: so it's not miles away from anything. But it's really

687
00:39:41,165 --> 00:39:44,045
Speaker 1: out in the sticks and it's along this long track

688
00:39:44,125 --> 00:39:47,285
Speaker 1: off a main road, and it's sort of between these

689
00:39:47,325 --> 00:39:50,605
Speaker 1: water meadows which is where the cows graze, and the

690
00:39:50,645 --> 00:39:54,205
Speaker 1: more arid mountains which go sort of behind the farmhouse,

691
00:39:54,445 --> 00:39:56,565
Speaker 1: which is where they have their rodeo horses and they

692
00:39:56,565 --> 00:40:00,885
Speaker 1: have the pigs and the chickens. And it's really unbelievably beautiful,

693
00:40:01,045 --> 00:40:03,885
Speaker 1: like you just get your phone out and it looks

694
00:40:03,925 --> 00:40:07,725
Speaker 1: amazing on your phone and it's made for Instagram. But

695
00:40:07,805 --> 00:40:11,125
Speaker 1: it's also kind of scary. Like the day before when

696
00:40:11,165 --> 00:40:13,685
Speaker 1: I arrived, I just wanted to go for a drive

697
00:40:14,485 --> 00:40:16,405
Speaker 1: and I was driving along this really really really long

698
00:40:16,485 --> 00:40:19,805
Speaker 1: road and I was planning on doing this big loop

699
00:40:19,885 --> 00:40:22,645
Speaker 1: and I got about half an hour down this road

700
00:40:22,925 --> 00:40:26,285
Speaker 1: and I was like, there is nobody else here if

701
00:40:26,325 --> 00:40:29,885
Speaker 1: I break down or something happens. I just suddenly started

702
00:40:29,925 --> 00:40:33,765
Speaker 1: freaking out at the ruralness of it. And there's something

703
00:40:33,805 --> 00:40:37,565
Speaker 1: a bit scary about it. I mean, you live in Australia,

704
00:40:37,605 --> 00:40:39,805
Speaker 1: I'm sure you have had moments like that when you're like,

705
00:40:39,845 --> 00:40:40,645
Speaker 1: oh shit, this is.

706
00:40:40,605 --> 00:40:42,565
Speaker 2: Actually really nice.

707
00:40:43,365 --> 00:40:45,765
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, and then your brain goes a bit funny.

708
00:40:45,885 --> 00:40:47,725
Speaker 1: And I grew up in the countryside in the UK,

709
00:40:47,805 --> 00:40:50,405
Speaker 1: so I'm not like, you know, a city girl through

710
00:40:50,405 --> 00:40:54,005
Speaker 1: and through. So there was this sense of like, oh, wow,

711
00:40:54,085 --> 00:40:55,525
Speaker 1: you're far away.

712
00:40:55,765 --> 00:40:58,325
Speaker 2: When you opened the door. When the door was opened

713
00:40:58,805 --> 00:41:02,485
Speaker 2: of the house and you met Daniel and Hannah, what

714
00:41:02,525 --> 00:41:03,565
Speaker 2: were your first impressions?

715
00:41:04,285 --> 00:41:10,605
Speaker 1: Really relaxed, The kids were everywhere. Daniel is actually very

716
00:41:10,685 --> 00:41:14,285
Speaker 1: hands on with the kids and like with the babies,

717
00:41:15,085 --> 00:41:18,165
Speaker 1: and it just looked exactly how it did on Instagram.

718
00:41:18,245 --> 00:41:21,245
Speaker 1: It was kind of chaotic and loose living. You know

719
00:41:21,285 --> 00:41:23,365
Speaker 1: that they're not in any way. I mean, I don't

720
00:41:23,365 --> 00:41:28,085
Speaker 1: think you can be uptight about like presentation of the house.

721
00:41:28,645 --> 00:41:31,045
Speaker 1: It was sort of like rough and tumble, and it

722
00:41:31,085 --> 00:41:32,405
Speaker 1: looked great.

723
00:41:32,685 --> 00:41:34,445
Speaker 2: So like the kid with the kids all sort of

724
00:41:34,485 --> 00:41:39,285
Speaker 2: in coordinated outfits or share complimentary shades of neutral linen

725
00:41:39,925 --> 00:41:40,645
Speaker 2: pretty much.

726
00:41:40,685 --> 00:41:42,725
Speaker 1: But they were also like very muddy and like had

727
00:41:42,925 --> 00:41:46,125
Speaker 1: fruit all over their places, and I think they just

728
00:41:46,165 --> 00:41:48,605
Speaker 1: have really good clothes. And it was good. I mean,

729
00:41:48,885 --> 00:41:52,765
Speaker 1: the interview was very much involving Daniel, much more than

730
00:41:52,805 --> 00:41:57,445
Speaker 1: I initially anticipated, particularly when it came to politics and

731
00:41:57,565 --> 00:42:01,565
Speaker 1: religion and trad wifeeness. He was the one who sort

732
00:42:01,565 --> 00:42:02,885
Speaker 1: of took the lead on those answers.

733
00:42:03,285 --> 00:42:06,485
Speaker 2: That's interesting, and it felt a little. I know you

734
00:42:06,525 --> 00:42:09,765
Speaker 2: were obviously very tried hard not to inject your opinion

735
00:42:09,845 --> 00:42:13,165
Speaker 2: into the story, and you reported it out very carefully

736
00:42:13,165 --> 00:42:16,285
Speaker 2: in in a balanced way, but it did come across

737
00:42:16,405 --> 00:42:20,125
Speaker 2: as controlling and a little ominous. His refusal to leave

738
00:42:20,125 --> 00:42:23,925
Speaker 2: you alone with her, it seemed like he was diverting

739
00:42:23,965 --> 00:42:27,805
Speaker 2: you away from being able to talk to her. Tell

740
00:42:27,805 --> 00:42:29,885
Speaker 2: me a bit about that. Is that how you felt.

741
00:42:30,085 --> 00:42:32,245
Speaker 1: I think it would be extreme to say that he

742
00:42:32,365 --> 00:42:38,045
Speaker 1: was like diverting or in any way possessive, but he was.

743
00:42:38,445 --> 00:42:42,765
Speaker 1: He's the master of the house. And I've spoken to

744
00:42:42,845 --> 00:42:45,765
Speaker 1: a lot of Mormon women since who've got in touch

745
00:42:45,805 --> 00:42:48,645
Speaker 1: with me to say that, which was very moving actually

746
00:42:48,645 --> 00:42:51,045
Speaker 1: and meant a lot, to say that it was an

747
00:42:51,165 --> 00:42:54,205
Speaker 1: accurate portrayal. They felt it to be an accurate portrayal

748
00:42:54,285 --> 00:42:57,005
Speaker 1: of the gender roles that they see in their own

749
00:42:57,045 --> 00:43:02,405
Speaker 1: lives and throughout their community. And in Mormonism, the men

750
00:43:02,605 --> 00:43:05,565
Speaker 1: have the priesthood. All of the men have the priesthood

751
00:43:05,605 --> 00:43:08,765
Speaker 1: after baptism, so they really are the ones who lead

752
00:43:08,965 --> 00:43:13,925
Speaker 1: the press and who are able to make authoritative comments

753
00:43:14,045 --> 00:43:17,645
Speaker 1: on culture, society, and their community. And it's the women

754
00:43:17,685 --> 00:43:21,125
Speaker 1: who are the homemakers. And that added so much context

755
00:43:21,485 --> 00:43:24,085
Speaker 1: to why she looked to him when it was about

756
00:43:24,165 --> 00:43:27,165
Speaker 1: the bigger world, because it's the men who go out

757
00:43:27,205 --> 00:43:29,565
Speaker 1: into it. They do their missions, and then they return

758
00:43:29,685 --> 00:43:33,885
Speaker 1: and they're full of worldly knowledge. So that's what it

759
00:43:33,965 --> 00:43:37,365
Speaker 1: really reminded me of, was that he is the one

760
00:43:37,405 --> 00:43:41,605
Speaker 1: who's right and has the important views on things, and

761
00:43:42,725 --> 00:43:46,045
Speaker 1: she is the one who looks after the children. So

762
00:43:46,085 --> 00:43:48,645
Speaker 1: I think him leading was more that rather than him

763
00:43:48,645 --> 00:43:49,125
Speaker 1: taking away.

764
00:43:49,165 --> 00:43:52,245
Speaker 2: But did they seem like equals? Yeah, I know they

765
00:43:52,285 --> 00:43:55,525
Speaker 2: call themselves co CEOs. Did they seem like equals? That

766
00:43:55,845 --> 00:43:59,085
Speaker 2: is really important context what you say about it wasn't

767
00:43:59,085 --> 00:44:04,245
Speaker 2: necessarily a sinister thing or a dysfunctional thing in their relationship.

768
00:44:04,325 --> 00:44:08,765
Speaker 2: It's more just the strictures of Mormonism and how they

769
00:44:08,805 --> 00:44:12,245
Speaker 2: were both and those really hardcore gender roles.

770
00:44:12,565 --> 00:44:15,325
Speaker 1: Yes, in terms of the kids and looking after the kids,

771
00:44:15,605 --> 00:44:20,645
Speaker 1: he was way more involved than many other modern dads.

772
00:44:20,685 --> 00:44:22,685
Speaker 1: I would have thought. You know, the kids joined him

773
00:44:22,685 --> 00:44:23,085
Speaker 1: on the farm.

774
00:44:23,445 --> 00:44:25,045
Speaker 5: We have a lot of kids, so we have a

775
00:44:25,085 --> 00:44:29,525
Speaker 5: lot of responsibilities, and I take care of more of

776
00:44:29,525 --> 00:44:32,085
Speaker 5: the ranch side of things. Hannah takes care of more

777
00:44:32,205 --> 00:44:37,125
Speaker 5: the marketing, but we also share so many roles, especially

778
00:44:37,165 --> 00:44:40,525
Speaker 5: with parenting when we're very fifty to fifty. Hannah does more.

779
00:44:40,765 --> 00:44:42,165
Speaker 5: I do as much as I can.

780
00:44:42,645 --> 00:44:45,325
Speaker 7: Well, especially because the kids are homeschooled and both of

781
00:44:45,405 --> 00:44:46,605
Speaker 7: us are at home every day.

782
00:44:47,125 --> 00:44:50,405
Speaker 1: But his decision was the final one. Like we went

783
00:44:50,445 --> 00:44:53,045
Speaker 1: out to the barn and this new barn that they're

784
00:44:53,045 --> 00:44:56,365
Speaker 1: built and it's really beautiful's where the dairy cows are

785
00:44:56,365 --> 00:44:59,485
Speaker 1: going to go, and had built this platform in the

786
00:44:59,525 --> 00:45:04,605
Speaker 1: middle of it all, and I said, oh, why is

787
00:45:04,605 --> 00:45:08,005
Speaker 1: this here? And he was like, well, I want to

788
00:45:08,005 --> 00:45:10,845
Speaker 1: do tours. I want to do tours so that I

789
00:45:10,885 --> 00:45:13,645
Speaker 1: can show people the building, but Hannah doesn't want to

790
00:45:13,645 --> 00:45:17,165
Speaker 1: do them. And I kind of like looked down and

791
00:45:17,205 --> 00:45:20,645
Speaker 1: we were standing on the platform that he had built

792
00:45:21,285 --> 00:45:24,085
Speaker 1: to do the farm tours, and he was telling me

793
00:45:24,125 --> 00:45:25,925
Speaker 1: that they're not going to do them because Hannah doesn't

794
00:45:25,965 --> 00:45:29,085
Speaker 1: want to do them, and I just thought, I think

795
00:45:29,125 --> 00:45:33,525
Speaker 1: the decision might already have been made. Interesting. So I

796
00:45:33,565 --> 00:45:37,485
Speaker 1: think that they are equals and that they're they both

797
00:45:37,525 --> 00:45:40,165
Speaker 1: have different stakes in the same company, But I think

798
00:45:40,205 --> 00:45:44,805
Speaker 1: that from my interactions with him and her, he seemed

799
00:45:44,805 --> 00:45:46,845
Speaker 1: to have the final say in it.

800
00:45:47,645 --> 00:45:51,485
Speaker 2: What are the practicalities of running a farm with eight

801
00:45:51,565 --> 00:45:55,605
Speaker 2: children that you have to prepare all their meals for, Like,

802
00:45:56,285 --> 00:45:58,605
Speaker 2: they must have help. I know that she says that

803
00:45:58,645 --> 00:46:00,445
Speaker 2: they don't. But did you get the sense that the

804
00:46:00,485 --> 00:46:02,045
Speaker 2: help had been sent away for the day.

805
00:46:02,445 --> 00:46:04,285
Speaker 1: No, I don't think they want the help.

806
00:46:04,685 --> 00:46:07,445
Speaker 2: So who teaches the children? Because they're all homeschooled in the.

807
00:46:07,405 --> 00:46:09,965
Speaker 1: Barn, they have a teacher. So they have a Mormon

808
00:46:10,005 --> 00:46:12,285
Speaker 1: teacher from down the road who comes to school the kids, but.

809
00:46:12,325 --> 00:46:14,485
Speaker 2: Most of them, I suppose. How old are the kids, Like,

810
00:46:14,565 --> 00:46:17,605
Speaker 2: they range in age from almost newborn to what the

811
00:46:17,685 --> 00:46:21,925
Speaker 2: eldest is thirty, right, So she's obviously preoccupied with the

812
00:46:21,925 --> 00:46:24,685
Speaker 2: little ones all through the day. And then when they're

813
00:46:24,725 --> 00:46:26,765
Speaker 2: not at school, all of them, I mean even just

814
00:46:26,805 --> 00:46:30,325
Speaker 2: the physicality of supervising them and making sure they don't

815
00:46:30,365 --> 00:46:32,765
Speaker 2: run off into a damn How do they even do that?

816
00:46:33,285 --> 00:46:35,325
Speaker 1: Well, they kind of look after each other, the kids,

817
00:46:35,325 --> 00:46:37,445
Speaker 1: and the older ones look after the younger ones. It's

818
00:46:37,485 --> 00:46:41,645
Speaker 1: like now joined into a circle, and they're pretty wild,

819
00:46:41,765 --> 00:46:43,645
Speaker 1: like they do just go off and do their own thing,

820
00:46:44,205 --> 00:46:47,925
Speaker 1: which again, like that is a genuine fantasy, Like that

821
00:46:47,965 --> 00:46:51,045
Speaker 1: actually really worked and that is really real. And the

822
00:46:51,045 --> 00:46:53,285
Speaker 1: fact that the kids just like kind of run wild

823
00:46:53,325 --> 00:46:56,005
Speaker 1: and are happy with it. Yeah, And that's the core

824
00:46:56,045 --> 00:46:58,085
Speaker 1: of why people love it and want to watch it,

825
00:46:58,245 --> 00:47:00,565
Speaker 1: because you think, oh god, I need to check that

826
00:47:00,605 --> 00:47:02,845
Speaker 1: my baby's not picking up a cigarette bart.

827
00:47:02,965 --> 00:47:07,245
Speaker 2: Yeah, and instead of helicoptering, So they're not helicopter parents.

828
00:47:07,685 --> 00:47:09,845
Speaker 1: No, but they don't have to be because they.

829
00:47:10,365 --> 00:47:13,925
Speaker 2: You had some brief time alone with her, and there

830
00:47:13,925 --> 00:47:15,645
Speaker 2: are a couple of things you asked her. You asked

831
00:47:15,645 --> 00:47:17,565
Speaker 2: her if this was what she always wanted. What did

832
00:47:17,605 --> 00:47:18,005
Speaker 2: she say?

833
00:47:18,885 --> 00:47:22,005
Speaker 1: She said no, She was like, I wanted New York.

834
00:47:22,125 --> 00:47:25,485
Speaker 1: That was my dream. But as we said earlier, she

835
00:47:25,565 --> 00:47:29,405
Speaker 1: wants it now. Dreams changed her life now. But I

836
00:47:29,445 --> 00:47:34,285
Speaker 1: couldn't believe that it's so extreme that life. It's so extreme.

837
00:47:34,925 --> 00:47:37,525
Speaker 1: And I was really surprised actually when she said.

838
00:47:37,365 --> 00:47:41,605
Speaker 2: That you start your pace like this. Hannah Neielman was

839
00:47:41,605 --> 00:47:44,605
Speaker 2: pregnant with her eighth child, and she had two due dates.

840
00:47:44,845 --> 00:47:47,565
Speaker 2: The first was for a baby, obviously, the second, just

841
00:47:47,685 --> 00:47:51,565
Speaker 2: under two weeks later, was for a beauty pageant. Tell

842
00:47:51,565 --> 00:47:55,525
Speaker 2: me about what you think was the reason she entered

843
00:47:55,525 --> 00:47:56,165
Speaker 2: that pageant.

844
00:47:57,205 --> 00:48:00,005
Speaker 1: I think that so much of this sort of femininity

845
00:48:00,525 --> 00:48:05,645
Speaker 1: is about performing ease and about making things look easy

846
00:48:06,165 --> 00:48:10,725
Speaker 1: and pleasant and nice. And I think that she knew

847
00:48:11,125 --> 00:48:13,525
Speaker 1: and thought that she could do it. She'd had seven

848
00:48:13,605 --> 00:48:17,765
Speaker 1: children before that, and it was in the diary. She

849
00:48:17,845 --> 00:48:21,605
Speaker 1: had this commitment, she had this duty, and I think

850
00:48:21,885 --> 00:48:26,285
Speaker 1: to her it was slightly unthinkable that she wouldn't do it.

851
00:48:26,965 --> 00:48:30,325
Speaker 2: She trained, and you wrote about her extensive preparation for

852
00:48:30,405 --> 00:48:33,485
Speaker 2: the pageant. It seemed to me to be a real

853
00:48:33,525 --> 00:48:37,245
Speaker 2: act of defiance doing that pageant and competing in Missus

854
00:48:37,245 --> 00:48:40,925
Speaker 2: World because she'd won the Missus America title. Is that

855
00:48:41,005 --> 00:48:42,805
Speaker 2: how it came across to you, where it was like,

856
00:48:43,445 --> 00:48:47,925
Speaker 2: I am determined to maintain my identity and do something

857
00:48:47,965 --> 00:48:49,845
Speaker 2: that's not about me being a wife and a mother.

858
00:48:50,605 --> 00:48:53,565
Speaker 1: That's such a good way of putting it that there

859
00:48:53,725 --> 00:48:59,885
Speaker 1: was this determination in her. But I don't necessarily think

860
00:48:59,925 --> 00:49:02,045
Speaker 1: that it was about her detaching herself from being a

861
00:49:02,045 --> 00:49:04,445
Speaker 1: wife and a mother, because the pageant itself is about

862
00:49:04,485 --> 00:49:07,725
Speaker 1: being a wife and a mother. Missus American is about

863
00:49:07,765 --> 00:49:10,685
Speaker 1: being a wife and they talk about that children and

864
00:49:11,325 --> 00:49:14,085
Speaker 1: it's part of that brand. So I think it was

865
00:49:14,325 --> 00:49:18,045
Speaker 1: a defiance in showing people she could do it. But

866
00:49:18,085 --> 00:49:20,365
Speaker 1: I think it was a defiance in showing people she

867
00:49:20,365 --> 00:49:24,285
Speaker 1: could do it with children and with a husband, and

868
00:49:24,605 --> 00:49:29,805
Speaker 1: while remaining modest, wearing her garments and wearing her you know,

869
00:49:30,165 --> 00:49:33,005
Speaker 1: the modesty clothing that she's required to from her religion.

870
00:49:33,405 --> 00:49:36,165
Speaker 2: Well, the pageant itself isn't. I mean, I can't. I

871
00:49:36,205 --> 00:49:39,085
Speaker 2: hate the term modest because it kind of implies that

872
00:49:39,085 --> 00:49:42,285
Speaker 2: people who don't dress like that are immodest. But you know,

873
00:49:42,325 --> 00:49:46,245
Speaker 2: I noticed just this week or last week, she reposted

874
00:49:46,525 --> 00:49:48,245
Speaker 2: some footage of her and it was in a tight

875
00:49:48,325 --> 00:49:52,045
Speaker 2: dress from the pageant. Tight dress. It wasn't the Missus World,

876
00:49:52,045 --> 00:49:55,805
Speaker 2: it was I think the Missus America. And she wrote

877
00:49:56,405 --> 00:49:59,005
Speaker 2: a night I will never forget this year has flown

878
00:49:59,005 --> 00:50:01,805
Speaker 2: by heading to Las Vegas next week to crown my successor.

879
00:50:02,485 --> 00:50:05,805
Speaker 2: I was twenty weeks pregnant with Miss Flora Joe during

880
00:50:05,845 --> 00:50:09,085
Speaker 2: this pageant, and I thought that last line was so

881
00:50:09,125 --> 00:50:11,725
Speaker 2: to because she's in a swimsuit. She doesn't look like

882
00:50:11,725 --> 00:50:13,685
Speaker 2: she's pregnant at all. And this is I think her

883
00:50:14,245 --> 00:50:17,765
Speaker 2: seventh or eighth child. And to me, you know, there's

884
00:50:17,765 --> 00:50:19,805
Speaker 2: a lot of talk about body image and ballerinas and

885
00:50:21,005 --> 00:50:23,245
Speaker 2: weight and all of those kinds of things, and the

886
00:50:23,925 --> 00:50:28,085
Speaker 2: very strict structures and confines that women who are ballerinas

887
00:50:28,125 --> 00:50:32,485
Speaker 2: have to live within but it seemed very important to

888
00:50:32,525 --> 00:50:35,445
Speaker 2: her that she didn't look pregnant, and to be saying,

889
00:50:35,765 --> 00:50:40,205
Speaker 2: look how skinny I am, Look how unpregnant I am.

890
00:50:40,285 --> 00:50:42,845
Speaker 2: And it was again as if that was a flex

891
00:50:42,925 --> 00:50:45,685
Speaker 2: and as if that was an achievement. That she was

892
00:50:45,725 --> 00:50:48,045
Speaker 2: in a swim suit, competing in a pageant with high

893
00:50:48,125 --> 00:50:51,245
Speaker 2: heels makeup and she won, and yet she was twenty

894
00:50:51,245 --> 00:50:54,885
Speaker 2: weeks pregnant. What did you get any sense of sort

895
00:50:54,925 --> 00:50:57,045
Speaker 2: of body issues for her? And this because one of

896
00:50:57,085 --> 00:50:58,925
Speaker 2: the things that the Internet's obsessed with is how skinnys

897
00:50:58,965 --> 00:51:02,285
Speaker 2: she is despite having eight children. You know, she bounces back,

898
00:51:02,365 --> 00:51:04,805
Speaker 2: She got back in that twelve days after postpartum. She

899
00:51:04,925 --> 00:51:08,045
Speaker 2: was back in that you know, tight dress, walking in

900
00:51:08,125 --> 00:51:09,405
Speaker 2: high heels, and.

901
00:51:09,485 --> 00:51:12,245
Speaker 1: She works out hard. She goes to the gym every morning.

902
00:51:12,725 --> 00:51:14,805
Speaker 2: It's like that a razure of evet as well, isn't it.

903
00:51:14,805 --> 00:51:16,845
Speaker 2: It's this demand that I've had eight children, but you

904
00:51:16,845 --> 00:51:18,885
Speaker 2: will see no sign of any of it on my body.

905
00:51:19,525 --> 00:51:23,165
Speaker 1: And in Mormonism again, how you look after your body

906
00:51:23,405 --> 00:51:26,525
Speaker 1: is a reflection of how you attending to your soul.

907
00:51:27,365 --> 00:51:29,445
Speaker 1: So that's why so many Mormon women, I don't know

908
00:51:29,485 --> 00:51:32,525
Speaker 1: if you're watching this Mormon wives thing on Hulu, are

909
00:51:32,605 --> 00:51:35,525
Speaker 1: so beautiful because it's they see it as being a

910
00:51:35,565 --> 00:51:39,405
Speaker 1: reflection on your goodness, your spiritual goodness.

911
00:51:39,485 --> 00:51:43,685
Speaker 2: Is it the same for men? Them looking hot also

912
00:51:44,125 --> 00:51:47,965
Speaker 2: a reflection of their spiritual goodness? Probably not. It's probably

913
00:51:47,965 --> 00:51:50,725
Speaker 2: about how hard they work, right, that's probably the reflection

914
00:51:50,805 --> 00:51:52,045
Speaker 2: of their spiritual.

915
00:51:51,565 --> 00:51:53,485
Speaker 1: Goodness, right, and how much money they're making.

916
00:51:53,525 --> 00:51:55,605
Speaker 2: And for women, it's how many children they have and

917
00:51:56,045 --> 00:51:57,245
Speaker 2: they look, and.

918
00:51:57,165 --> 00:51:58,645
Speaker 1: How effortless you make it look.

919
00:51:58,845 --> 00:51:59,125
Speaker 6: Wow.

920
00:51:59,205 --> 00:52:01,965
Speaker 1: So I was expecting, like, it's funny that you say,

921
00:52:02,085 --> 00:52:03,685
Speaker 1: like she was kind of like, look at me, look

922
00:52:03,685 --> 00:52:05,845
Speaker 1: at me. I was expecting so much more of that

923
00:52:05,965 --> 00:52:10,845
Speaker 1: metal and she'd had so much backlash, and she continued

924
00:52:10,885 --> 00:52:13,165
Speaker 1: to do it and still does. I thought, Oh, this

925
00:52:13,205 --> 00:52:14,965
Speaker 1: is going to be a woman who's like kind of

926
00:52:15,005 --> 00:52:18,085
Speaker 1: doing a bit of an f you, who knows exactly

927
00:52:18,125 --> 00:52:20,565
Speaker 1: what it's all about and exactly what she's saying and

928
00:52:20,605 --> 00:52:24,405
Speaker 1: exactly what the other argument was. But what I found

929
00:52:24,565 --> 00:52:27,245
Speaker 1: was actually a woman who just said, well, I just

930
00:52:27,285 --> 00:52:29,645
Speaker 1: wanted to do it, and I like doing it, and

931
00:52:29,685 --> 00:52:32,725
Speaker 1: so why wouldn't I post about being twenty weeks pregnant,

932
00:52:32,765 --> 00:52:35,565
Speaker 1: being pregnant, beautiful thing, and blah blah blah, and that

933
00:52:35,605 --> 00:52:37,965
Speaker 1: I didn't find that deceitful. I didn't think that she

934
00:52:38,085 --> 00:52:40,045
Speaker 1: was doing that in a deceitful way.

935
00:52:40,285 --> 00:52:42,445
Speaker 2: It's sort of guileless a little bit, though, isn't it.

936
00:52:42,445 --> 00:52:45,965
Speaker 2: It's kind of like, oh, look, I'm twenty weeks pregnant.

937
00:52:46,565 --> 00:52:49,045
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, and she's tiny, she's like a little

938
00:52:49,125 --> 00:52:50,605
Speaker 1: like she's a Vallerina.

939
00:52:50,885 --> 00:52:53,085
Speaker 2: Yeah. So it's again that there's no sign of effort.

940
00:52:53,085 --> 00:52:55,285
Speaker 2: There's no I work out, I'll go and dip in

941
00:52:55,285 --> 00:52:58,245
Speaker 2: the dam while I'm nine months pregnant so that I

942
00:52:58,285 --> 00:53:00,725
Speaker 2: can bounce back and get into this pageant and really

943
00:53:01,085 --> 00:53:04,605
Speaker 2: punish myself and torture my body and arraise all sign

944
00:53:04,645 --> 00:53:06,885
Speaker 2: of effort. Like in everywhere else in her life, it's

945
00:53:06,925 --> 00:53:09,485
Speaker 2: all about it being effortless. Do you think that's why

946
00:53:09,485 --> 00:53:14,205
Speaker 2: I Bellerina firm particularly, but treadwives in general make so

947
00:53:14,325 --> 00:53:15,325
Speaker 2: many women angry.

948
00:53:15,645 --> 00:53:18,045
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I also think that we see it as

949
00:53:18,045 --> 00:53:21,365
Speaker 1: being a judgment on our own lives and our own decisions,

950
00:53:21,445 --> 00:53:29,045
Speaker 1: So we project things onto what they're posting, and we

951
00:53:29,245 --> 00:53:32,925
Speaker 1: politicize it in a way that we're already angry about

952
00:53:33,565 --> 00:53:36,445
Speaker 1: and I think it's really frightening. It's really, really, really

953
00:53:36,485 --> 00:53:39,245
Speaker 1: scary to see that because you think, oh God, don't,

954
00:53:39,685 --> 00:53:42,085
Speaker 1: please don't make me go there. I really don't want

955
00:53:42,085 --> 00:53:43,965
Speaker 1: men to think that this is the way it has

956
00:53:44,045 --> 00:53:46,085
Speaker 1: to be. I really don't want men to think that

957
00:53:46,125 --> 00:53:47,925
Speaker 1: this is how I should be. And I'm failing if

958
00:53:47,925 --> 00:53:50,365
Speaker 1: I'm not, and other women, please don't. I don't want

959
00:53:50,365 --> 00:53:50,965
Speaker 1: to go back.

960
00:53:51,365 --> 00:53:54,005
Speaker 2: It feels like propaganda, doesn't it, for a time when

961
00:53:54,045 --> 00:53:56,805
Speaker 2: women had no rights and no choices.

962
00:53:56,805 --> 00:53:58,565
Speaker 1: And particularly when you see it coming up on your

963
00:53:58,605 --> 00:54:02,125
Speaker 1: Instagram discover. You know, before I started researching all of this,

964
00:54:02,245 --> 00:54:03,845
Speaker 1: it was coming up on my page and I was

965
00:54:03,885 --> 00:54:08,205
Speaker 1: like why, and all these Catholic influences telling me how

966
00:54:08,205 --> 00:54:10,885
Speaker 1: I should be dressing for church on a Sunday, Like,

967
00:54:10,965 --> 00:54:14,485
Speaker 1: God knows how they found their way onto my Instagram.

968
00:54:14,685 --> 00:54:17,645
Speaker 2: It's that radicalization, Isn't it like that the algorithm will do?

969
00:54:18,205 --> 00:54:20,845
Speaker 2: But in the article you wrote, you pose a question

970
00:54:20,925 --> 00:54:24,285
Speaker 2: in the subtitle, is it's an empowering new model of

971
00:54:24,325 --> 00:54:28,325
Speaker 2: womanhood or a hammer blow for feminism? Did you have

972
00:54:28,365 --> 00:54:30,285
Speaker 2: a view on this before you arrived and was it

973
00:54:30,365 --> 00:54:33,565
Speaker 2: different after you'd spent time with Hannah and Daniel.

974
00:54:34,245 --> 00:54:37,045
Speaker 1: I had had so many conversations with lots of different

975
00:54:37,205 --> 00:54:40,725
Speaker 1: people before I went, because I don't have children and

976
00:54:40,805 --> 00:54:44,445
Speaker 1: because I don't live a life anywhere like that, so

977
00:54:44,645 --> 00:54:47,685
Speaker 1: I didn't feel like I had anything written in my head.

978
00:54:47,685 --> 00:54:50,885
Speaker 1: Because a lot of mothers who had spoken to loved

979
00:54:50,925 --> 00:54:54,045
Speaker 1: her and were really respectful of the life that she'd chosen.

980
00:54:56,085 --> 00:54:58,925
Speaker 1: And I'm also trained as a journalist to walk in

981
00:54:59,045 --> 00:55:03,605
Speaker 1: somewhere and not have a preconceived understanding as much as

982
00:55:03,605 --> 00:55:07,125
Speaker 1: I can do, having seen all of her life on Instagram,

983
00:55:07,725 --> 00:55:09,525
Speaker 1: and I really didn't know what to expect, and I

984
00:55:09,645 --> 00:55:12,205
Speaker 1: was surprised, as I said, like I was expecting to

985
00:55:12,245 --> 00:55:15,725
Speaker 1: find someone who was more sort of steadfast in her views,

986
00:55:15,765 --> 00:55:18,965
Speaker 1: and I left sort of feeling like, WHOA, Okay, I

987
00:55:19,005 --> 00:55:22,045
Speaker 1: thought I was going to be interviewing her. And there

988
00:55:22,045 --> 00:55:23,485
Speaker 1: was a point in the day that I was really

989
00:55:23,565 --> 00:55:26,325
Speaker 1: stressed because I was like, she's going to have to

990
00:55:26,365 --> 00:55:28,205
Speaker 1: go and drop these kids off at ballet and I

991
00:55:28,245 --> 00:55:30,965
Speaker 1: haven't asked her the questions that I need to. Yeah,

992
00:55:31,205 --> 00:55:33,085
Speaker 1: clocks ticking, and my edge's going to ask me, like,

993
00:55:33,085 --> 00:55:34,605
Speaker 1: why didn't you ask her this? Why didn't you ask

994
00:55:34,605 --> 00:55:39,325
Speaker 1: her this. So that was kind of stressful and I left,

995
00:55:39,445 --> 00:55:41,445
Speaker 1: like just trying to work it out, and then I

996
00:55:41,485 --> 00:55:44,125
Speaker 1: went for lunch actually with a friend when I got

997
00:55:44,165 --> 00:55:47,645
Speaker 1: back here on the weekend, and I like blooded it

998
00:55:47,725 --> 00:55:50,805
Speaker 1: all out. Everything happened, and in the midst of like

999
00:55:50,885 --> 00:55:54,845
Speaker 1: this huge storm and virality. Afterwards, she called me and

1000
00:55:54,885 --> 00:55:58,045
Speaker 1: she was like, you know, everything that you wrote was

1001
00:55:58,085 --> 00:56:02,405
Speaker 1: exactly what we spoke about that day. So I don't

1002
00:56:02,445 --> 00:56:04,125
Speaker 1: think that I did go in and I think I was.

1003
00:56:04,405 --> 00:56:11,685
Speaker 1: It was unexpected anyway. What was the reaction binary people

1004
00:56:11,925 --> 00:56:15,965
Speaker 1: thinking that it was an effective piece of journalism that

1005
00:56:16,565 --> 00:56:18,605
Speaker 1: as I said, those Mormon women who said that it

1006
00:56:18,645 --> 00:56:21,685
Speaker 1: was an accurate representation of their lifestyles and how they've

1007
00:56:21,725 --> 00:56:24,765
Speaker 1: been feeling about gender roles, and then other people saying

1008
00:56:24,805 --> 00:56:27,405
Speaker 1: that I had no right to walk in there and

1009
00:56:27,485 --> 00:56:31,365
Speaker 1: judge her, which I don't think that I did, and

1010
00:56:31,565 --> 00:56:34,685
Speaker 1: that I know nothing because I'm childless, and that I

1011
00:56:34,725 --> 00:56:37,565
Speaker 1: should get out of other women's lives. There were other

1012
00:56:37,565 --> 00:56:40,445
Speaker 1: people who wanted to like thought that I was endangering

1013
00:56:40,485 --> 00:56:42,845
Speaker 1: her in some way. I mean, there were just the

1014
00:56:42,885 --> 00:56:48,045
Speaker 1: whole huge remit of response. But it was like so passionate,

1015
00:56:48,125 --> 00:56:51,725
Speaker 1: people are so moved by her because it's a comment

1016
00:56:51,805 --> 00:56:55,685
Speaker 1: on our most intimate personal decisions and how we choose

1017
00:56:55,685 --> 00:56:57,485
Speaker 1: to live and how we choose to bring other people

1018
00:56:57,485 --> 00:57:02,125
Speaker 1: into the world, also colored by our own experiences of parenthood,

1019
00:57:02,485 --> 00:57:05,805
Speaker 1: being parented ourselves. So it's really it goes really deep.

1020
00:57:05,845 --> 00:57:07,125
Speaker 1: I think the people.

1021
00:57:06,925 --> 00:57:08,445
Speaker 2: Who love her, why do they love her? Do you

1022
00:57:08,485 --> 00:57:11,405
Speaker 2: think they are a common thread between those people? Is

1023
00:57:11,445 --> 00:57:15,765
Speaker 2: it mostly kind of Trump voters, conservative women?

1024
00:57:16,045 --> 00:57:18,605
Speaker 1: Well, there are lots of people who are very bad

1025
00:57:18,645 --> 00:57:21,245
Speaker 1: who love her, Like the mothers who love her. I

1026
00:57:21,285 --> 00:57:24,885
Speaker 1: think they love her for allowing them to talk about

1027
00:57:24,885 --> 00:57:27,405
Speaker 1: how much they love motherhood and to not feel like

1028
00:57:27,445 --> 00:57:31,085
Speaker 1: a failure for not choosing like monetary work outside of

1029
00:57:31,125 --> 00:57:34,045
Speaker 1: the home. And I think that they've felt like they're

1030
00:57:34,085 --> 00:57:35,885
Speaker 1: not allowed to do that anymore, and that she allows

1031
00:57:35,925 --> 00:57:36,445
Speaker 1: them to do.

1032
00:57:36,365 --> 00:57:39,245
Speaker 2: That even though she does. Right. That's the irony. It's

1033
00:57:39,365 --> 00:57:43,525
Speaker 2: very meta because by performing all of that, she's a businesswoman.

1034
00:57:43,525 --> 00:57:46,045
Speaker 2: She's an entrepreneur, she's a co CEO of a company.

1035
00:57:46,525 --> 00:57:48,485
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and she's got a full time job.

1036
00:57:49,165 --> 00:57:51,285
Speaker 2: When does she make the content? Does she make it herself?

1037
00:57:51,485 --> 00:57:53,605
Speaker 1: Yeah? She makes it herself throughout the day and then

1038
00:57:53,645 --> 00:57:55,525
Speaker 1: she uploads it once the kids have gone to bed

1039
00:57:55,565 --> 00:57:56,805
Speaker 1: from like one am till two.

1040
00:57:58,245 --> 00:58:01,485
Speaker 2: And there was a kind of bizarre, almost offhand moment

1041
00:58:01,565 --> 00:58:05,205
Speaker 2: where Daniel revealed to you that sometimes Hannah gets so

1042
00:58:05,405 --> 00:58:08,325
Speaker 2: exhausted that she's literally bedridden for a week.

1043
00:58:08,645 --> 00:58:10,445
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, said that to me when we were on

1044
00:58:10,525 --> 00:58:12,765
Speaker 1: the ute going around the farm, that you know, she

1045
00:58:13,165 --> 00:58:14,245
Speaker 1: ties herself out.

1046
00:58:14,645 --> 00:58:16,965
Speaker 2: Did he seem to think that was a problem or

1047
00:58:17,285 --> 00:58:19,005
Speaker 2: it was just life on the farm with eight kids.

1048
00:58:19,045 --> 00:58:21,525
Speaker 1: I mean it was said in a way that was

1049
00:58:21,605 --> 00:58:25,725
Speaker 1: like like she needs to learn. I don't want to

1050
00:58:25,765 --> 00:58:27,845
Speaker 1: I don't want to read too much into like the tone,

1051
00:58:27,965 --> 00:58:31,045
Speaker 1: but how I interpreted the tone was like she needs

1052
00:58:31,085 --> 00:58:32,285
Speaker 1: to land, to slow down.

1053
00:58:32,085 --> 00:58:35,885
Speaker 2: Sometimes maybe by a stick of banner instead of churning

1054
00:58:35,925 --> 00:58:36,845
Speaker 2: it once.

1055
00:58:36,645 --> 00:58:37,165
Speaker 7: In a while.

1056
00:58:40,565 --> 00:58:42,165
Speaker 1: That's how I heard it.

1057
00:58:42,365 --> 00:58:44,205
Speaker 2: Do you know how they felt about the piece.

1058
00:58:44,725 --> 00:58:47,205
Speaker 1: I don't think that they were thrilled. I didn't hear

1059
00:58:47,245 --> 00:58:53,925
Speaker 1: from them directly. I know that there was some communication,

1060
00:58:54,845 --> 00:58:59,125
Speaker 1: but it was an honest piece against my transcripts. You

1061
00:58:59,165 --> 00:59:03,925
Speaker 1: can check my recorded audio, you know, next to the piece,

1062
00:59:04,005 --> 00:59:07,645
Speaker 1: and it's a true representation of what I saw and heard.

1063
00:59:08,085 --> 00:59:11,405
Speaker 1: So that was that, And I was getting these masters

1064
00:59:11,485 --> 00:59:15,205
Speaker 1: like you're being sued, And I was like, uh, I

1065
00:59:15,205 --> 00:59:17,685
Speaker 1: don't think we are. I think i'd know that. So

1066
00:59:17,765 --> 00:59:19,765
Speaker 1: there wasn't any I mean, it was as I say,

1067
00:59:19,765 --> 00:59:21,925
Speaker 1: It was a true representation of what I experience. So

1068
00:59:21,965 --> 00:59:23,965
Speaker 1: there was nothing that much that could be done.

1069
00:59:24,165 --> 00:59:25,725
Speaker 2: Last question, do you think she's happy?

1070
00:59:26,605 --> 00:59:30,645
Speaker 1: I think that she has grown up in a community

1071
00:59:31,445 --> 00:59:36,285
Speaker 1: and a world which doesn't allow her to be connected

1072
00:59:36,725 --> 00:59:39,005
Speaker 1: to the question, am I happy?

1073
00:59:42,165 --> 00:59:42,645
Speaker 3: Oh?

1074
00:59:42,725 --> 00:59:46,405
Speaker 2: I would love to hear Hannah Nielman interviewed on our podcast,

1075
00:59:47,005 --> 00:59:49,005
Speaker 2: But are you happy? I wonder if she is happy?

1076
00:59:49,645 --> 00:59:52,365
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it's not fair to suggest that

1077
00:59:52,405 --> 00:59:56,485
Speaker 2: she's not. If she says she's happy, maybe she is happy.

1078
00:59:57,045 --> 00:59:59,845
Speaker 2: But I think that question sums up so much of

1079
01:00:00,125 --> 01:00:03,365
Speaker 2: why we're fascinated by the whole trad wife thing, because

1080
01:00:03,365 --> 01:00:06,885
Speaker 2: on one hand, it is kind of alluring. Right, life

1081
01:00:06,925 --> 01:00:13,285
Speaker 2: is exhausting, and ambition and career and cities can be exhausting,

1082
01:00:13,965 --> 01:00:17,165
Speaker 2: and we do live in a culture that centers grind

1083
01:00:17,285 --> 01:00:20,445
Speaker 2: and hustle and sort of idolizes it. And there is

1084
01:00:20,485 --> 01:00:23,125
Speaker 2: some legitimate pushback to that, and I think that is

1085
01:00:23,205 --> 01:00:28,165
Speaker 2: valuable cultural criticism. But look, let's be honest. What the

1086
01:00:28,245 --> 01:00:34,165
Speaker 2: traadwives are selling is a little bit dubious because it's

1087
01:00:34,245 --> 01:00:37,765
Speaker 2: not easy. They make it look easy, but parenting eight kids,

1088
01:00:37,965 --> 01:00:41,925
Speaker 2: living on a farm, making meals from scratch, that's no

1089
01:00:42,365 --> 01:00:47,085
Speaker 2: easier than working at a job in a city, is it.

1090
01:00:47,165 --> 01:00:51,045
Speaker 2: I mean, it might make her happier, but it's certainly

1091
01:00:51,485 --> 01:00:54,885
Speaker 2: not easier, because how do Nielman is working hard? Man

1092
01:00:55,165 --> 01:00:58,365
Speaker 2: so hard that she sometimes can't get out of bed

1093
01:00:58,365 --> 01:01:00,325
Speaker 2: for a week. And I can't stop thinking about that,

1094
01:01:01,005 --> 01:01:04,085
Speaker 2: because when she's in bed for a week, who does

1095
01:01:04,125 --> 01:01:07,765
Speaker 2: milk the cows? And how does Daniel look after the

1096
01:01:07,885 --> 01:01:11,085
Speaker 2: eight kids and make all meals from scratch and do

1097
01:01:11,205 --> 01:01:14,245
Speaker 2: all the other things that he has to do. You

1098
01:01:14,285 --> 01:01:17,405
Speaker 2: don't see that exhaustion anywhere on her Instagram. She doesn't

1099
01:01:17,445 --> 01:01:20,685
Speaker 2: mention when she's just had to take a week out

1100
01:01:20,805 --> 01:01:24,205
Speaker 2: to be unconscious in bed, because I guess that exhaustion

1101
01:01:24,245 --> 01:01:28,365
Speaker 2: doesn't sell products or gain you followers, or convince other

1102
01:01:28,445 --> 01:01:33,005
Speaker 2: women to buy your stuff or to try treadwifing for themselves.

1103
01:01:33,845 --> 01:01:36,685
Speaker 2: And look, I'm all for doing what we can to

1104
01:01:36,765 --> 01:01:41,205
Speaker 2: make ourselves happy and simplify our lives and connect with nature.

1105
01:01:41,445 --> 01:01:44,765
Speaker 2: If nature is your jam, it's not really my jam,

1106
01:01:45,165 --> 01:01:48,165
Speaker 2: I do like cows, but I don't think i'd want

1107
01:01:48,205 --> 01:01:51,525
Speaker 2: to like live with them. I'm all for women living

1108
01:01:51,525 --> 01:01:54,365
Speaker 2: their lives exactly how they want, and I don't judge

1109
01:01:54,605 --> 01:01:56,925
Speaker 2: what Hannah and the other chidwives are doing. I judge

1110
01:01:57,045 --> 01:02:00,645
Speaker 2: kind of the idea of them selling a lifestyle that

1111
01:02:00,685 --> 01:02:05,245
Speaker 2: they make look one way and don't show what it's

1112
01:02:05,325 --> 01:02:09,005
Speaker 2: actually like. And in America right now, there's a sort

1113
01:02:09,005 --> 01:02:11,885
Speaker 2: of an underpinning to all of this, as Megan said,

1114
01:02:12,045 --> 01:02:17,485
Speaker 2: about this strong conservative religious underpinning of a woman's place

1115
01:02:18,085 --> 01:02:20,325
Speaker 2: and this idea of I think the reason it makes

1116
01:02:20,365 --> 01:02:23,325
Speaker 2: so many women crazy is that this is where we

1117
01:02:23,445 --> 01:02:26,965
Speaker 2: came from, this expectation that we should look beautiful and

1118
01:02:27,085 --> 01:02:29,645
Speaker 2: raise all our children and never complain and make all

1119
01:02:29,685 --> 01:02:32,245
Speaker 2: the meals from scratch and be really fulfilled by that.

1120
01:02:32,365 --> 01:02:34,965
Speaker 2: And it's not to say that some women aren't, but

1121
01:02:35,125 --> 01:02:39,325
Speaker 2: not all women are. In fact, most women probably aren't.

1122
01:02:40,285 --> 01:02:43,005
Speaker 2: So yeah, this is something that we are really looking

1123
01:02:43,045 --> 01:02:46,645
Speaker 2: at closely on no filter, this whole trade wife phenomenon,

1124
01:02:46,685 --> 01:02:50,765
Speaker 2: because the steaks are really high and you know, for

1125
01:02:50,845 --> 01:02:52,485
Speaker 2: some people it might just be a little bit like

1126
01:02:52,525 --> 01:02:55,245
Speaker 2: watching a cooking show when you don't cook. It's kind

1127
01:02:55,245 --> 01:02:57,645
Speaker 2: of soothing. I've got lots of friends who watch trad

1128
01:02:57,725 --> 01:03:01,765
Speaker 2: rife content like that just kind of to escape in

1129
01:03:01,805 --> 01:03:04,565
Speaker 2: the same way that I watch maybe fashion videos about

1130
01:03:04,605 --> 01:03:07,885
Speaker 2: street style on YouTube. But we have got more stories

1131
01:03:07,925 --> 01:03:11,125
Speaker 2: about trad wife life coming down the pipeline, and we've

1132
01:03:11,165 --> 01:03:13,885
Speaker 2: already done several. I highly recommend that you listen to

1133
01:03:14,485 --> 01:03:19,045
Speaker 2: our episode with Tea Levings. She escaped her tradwife marriage

1134
01:03:19,085 --> 01:03:22,765
Speaker 2: barely and she is raising the alarm about what she

1135
01:03:22,885 --> 01:03:26,685
Speaker 2: says are the dangers of the tradwife ideology. Watch this

1136
01:03:26,765 --> 01:03:29,765
Speaker 2: space for more. The executive producer of No Filter is

1137
01:03:29,845 --> 01:03:33,005
Speaker 2: Nama Brown and somehow she managed to get through COVID

1138
01:03:33,045 --> 01:03:37,765
Speaker 2: without making a sour dough starter Dido. Audio on this

1139
01:03:37,845 --> 01:03:40,885
Speaker 2: show is by Tom Lyon, and he says if being

1140
01:03:40,925 --> 01:03:44,565
Speaker 2: trad makes you happy, then you do you, although he

1141
01:03:44,605 --> 01:03:46,765
Speaker 2: also says that his wife is the opposite of a

1142
01:03:46,805 --> 01:03:50,325
Speaker 2: trad wife. Her career is soaring and she out earns him.

1143
01:03:50,605 --> 01:03:53,725
Speaker 2: But this works for Tom just fine. I'm your host,

1144
01:03:53,765 --> 01:03:58,245
Speaker 2: Mia Friedman, and the most TRADWIFEI thing about me is nothing.

1145
01:04:00,325 --> 01:04:00,885
Speaker 1: See soon