Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges
Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
Speaker 1: is recorded on.
Speaker 2: Oh I'll be dead, There's no question. There's no question.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wouldn't be alive. There's absolutely no question, no
Speaker 3: question at all. The horror that I was lining with.
Speaker 2: Forget about it, absolutely forget about it.
Speaker 4: Welcome to No Filter. I'm Kate lane Brook. You know
Speaker 4: Osher Gunsberg. He's the face of The Bachelor, The Bachelorette,
Speaker 4: the Masks, singer and of course Australian Idol. He's the
Speaker 4: voice of bond I Rescue and he's been so familiar
Speaker 4: to us on our screens for more than two decades.
Speaker 4: But what happens when the cameras stop rolling. In this conversation,
Speaker 4: Osher talks about what it's been like to find his
Speaker 4: footing in a changing industry and what it really feels
Speaker 4: like to be in your fifties with years of experience
Speaker 4: and struggling to find work. He opens up about the
Speaker 4: financial pressure that comes with that and how he's learning
Speaker 4: to redefine what success actually looks like. We also talk
Speaker 4: about his ongoing mental health journey. There's no conversation with
Speaker 4: Osher without addressing that, and what makes his marriage work
Speaker 4: during tough times, why step fatherhood has been the most
Speaker 4: rewarding and hardest role of his life. This is a
Speaker 4: conversation about identity, resilience, and figuring out who you are
Speaker 4: when everything around you starts to shift. He's a guy
Speaker 4: who goes deep, and so do we. Oshagunsburg, Welcome to
Speaker 4: No Filter.
Speaker 2: I'm thrilled to be here.
Speaker 4: Okay, So when I was doing my deep dive on you,
Speaker 4: which I already was quite in deep with you actually
Speaker 4: just through having been alive in this country, nobody can
Speaker 4: interview you without referring to your haircuts or your name changes.
Speaker 3: Okay, if that's what they want, what I wink that
Speaker 3: the content of what they bring to a production has
Speaker 3: more to do.
Speaker 1: But no, But here's the thing.
Speaker 4: I actually think that they're markers of certain periods in
Speaker 4: your life.
Speaker 1: Of course, as is the therapy.
Speaker 4: That you have embarked upon that goes with each of those,
Speaker 4: and the self work that you have done.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and maybe I've been a bit more visual
Speaker 3: or visible about that than others, because you can't be
Speaker 3: what you can't see. And I felt it was important
Speaker 3: to start talking about the kind of things that I
Speaker 3: needed to hear when I wasn't doing very well. And
Speaker 3: I think it's important to normalize this stuff. You're nice
Speaker 3: stranger to normalizing difficult conversations, and I think it's important
Speaker 3: that if you just start speaking in a way. Look,
Speaker 3: I'm a human like anybody, and I do life that
Speaker 3: might be a little more visible than others, but you know,
Speaker 3: I'm a human being and I do human stuff, and
Speaker 3: it's human to feel these things. And if you're feeling
Speaker 3: some of them, they can end in this way, but
Speaker 3: if you do something about it, it can end up better.
Speaker 4: I'm curious about the point at which because your evolution
Speaker 4: has been remarkable, and as you said, a lot of
Speaker 4: it conducted under the like often obsessive and cruel scrutiny
Speaker 4: of the public eye, right, and you have a remarkable
Speaker 4: capacity to bring yourself to things.
Speaker 2: Well, I chose this job, all right.
Speaker 3: There's a moment in Godfather Part two where Michael Corleoni
Speaker 3: is talking a hymen Roth.
Speaker 4: Please do the accent, Please do the accent, Please do
Speaker 4: the accent, Please do the accent.
Speaker 3: You know he's talking to hyd Roth, who is actually
Speaker 3: his acting coach and one of the great acting coaches
Speaker 3: of the world. He's upset at Michael Coleoni for whacking
Speaker 3: one of his friends, and he says, but I never
Speaker 3: complained because it was business, and this is the business
Speaker 3: we have chosen, And this is the job I chose.
Speaker 2: I chose a public facing job.
Speaker 3: And there's parts of the public facing job that I
Speaker 3: have dealt with in lately far better ways.
Speaker 2: Than I used to, But there's this is the job
Speaker 2: I chose.
Speaker 3: I chose a job where I am putting myself out
Speaker 3: to the opinions of the public. And part of the
Speaker 3: work that I get to do is I get to
Speaker 3: have a long, hard look at myself in the magical
Speaker 3: maas and mirrors and really get to choose what those
Speaker 3: opinions of the public mean to me. And in the
Speaker 3: past I have sometimes made the mean all kinds of
Speaker 3: things and it has derailed me in parts, and lately,
Speaker 3: in the last fifteen years or so, it's been a
Speaker 3: lot easier. So yeah, I mean, it's important. It's important
Speaker 3: to be able to have this kind of conversation publicly,
Speaker 3: and that's why I started the podcast in twenty thirteen.
Speaker 3: Bookcase I wasn't hearing the kind of things that I
Speaker 3: was needing to hear when I.
Speaker 2: Wasn't doing very well. I wasn't doing well when I
Speaker 2: started that show. And similarly, that's why I wrote this book.
Speaker 3: In what was I wrote this book because I read
Speaker 3: this book because I wish this is the book that
Speaker 3: I wish I had when I wasn't doing very well.
Speaker 1: This is the book you're talking about, So what now?
Speaker 3: What?
Speaker 1: And when I was reading it, which was it's very accessible.
Speaker 4: It's a graphic novel, and I think when I first
Speaker 4: got it this might be a metaphor for you. I
Speaker 4: underestimated what it would contain within do you know what
Speaker 4: I mean?
Speaker 1: Because of the presentation of it seems.
Speaker 2: So I'm all about the trojan horse, all about it.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: It's if I can, if I can sneak into the
Speaker 3: machine and disrupt from the inside, then I've done my job.
Speaker 3: And if I can present a set of tools that
Speaker 3: for me were life saving in a way that doesn't
Speaker 3: feel like I'm trying to tell you something, doesn't see
Speaker 3: it feel like I know better than you, or it
Speaker 3: doesn't feel like you're broken, and it's just look, here's
Speaker 3: some stuff. Take it or leave it, it's up to you,
Speaker 3: and then I've done my job right and I worked
Speaker 3: really really hard to hopefully thread that needle.
Speaker 4: What was it If we go back to twenty thirteen
Speaker 4: when you started your podcast and you said you wanted
Speaker 4: somewhere basically to find some tools that would help you
Speaker 4: where you were at that time. Where were you at
Speaker 4: that time that needed that.
Speaker 3: Twenty thirteen, I've been sober for about three years.
Speaker 2: I just got divorced.
Speaker 3: I was out in Los Angeles, paying rent out of
Speaker 3: my savings and kind of starting to maybe get whiffs
Speaker 3: that there might be I was creating TV formats and
Speaker 3: I'm pitching them down in Australia and I was in
Speaker 3: pre production for a TV show when it was a
Speaker 3: dating show, and I was in pre production for this
Speaker 3: dating show, and then the network said, hey, I know
Speaker 3: you're here doing pre production on this dating show, but
Speaker 3: we just put another dating show.
Speaker 2: It's called Bachelor. Would you want to host that? Yes?
Speaker 2: I would.
Speaker 3: So I was out here by myself back in Australia,
Speaker 3: kind of single and sober for the first time, trying
Speaker 3: to figure it out, dealing with degrading like sometimes better
Speaker 3: mental health than I had in a long time, but
Speaker 3: in many ways worse mental health than I had a
Speaker 3: long time, and I wasn't hearing the kind of conversations
Speaker 3: I needed to hear, which was that other people also
Speaker 3: had similar struggles and other people found ways to overcome
Speaker 3: them and just to normalize stuff like not necessarily I
Speaker 3: need to find the answer in this next three minutes
Speaker 3: of audio.
Speaker 2: Just oh yeah, I know that.
Speaker 3: And I do a lot of jobs to keep my
Speaker 3: mortgage paid these days, Kate, it used to be just
Speaker 3: one or two is about thirteen. But there's a through
Speaker 3: line to all of them. And I think the one
Speaker 3: job that I think I do better, that's than everything.
Speaker 3: The one job I do is to I try to
Speaker 3: make people feel less alone. That's my job, okay, And
Speaker 3: that be through a book or a podcast, or whether
Speaker 3: I'm doing a keynote or hosting a TV show.
Speaker 1: Giving a girl a rose, I am.
Speaker 3: I am a one man example of the Mandela effect
Speaker 3: because I've never given anyway. I never a rose once, never,
Speaker 3: not one time, but I ever give a rose.
Speaker 2: But everyone asked me, did you ever give a rose?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 1: No, that is Mandela effect.
Speaker 4: I get to be a I think I always thought
Speaker 4: watching that show well, I wondered how much input you.
Speaker 1: Had to it.
Speaker 3: Thankfully, in later seasons an amount which was more than
Speaker 3: other people would expect from the host of a show.
Speaker 3: They were the production company was very very open to input,
Speaker 3: and we were all creating it together, which I'm very
Speaker 3: very great for.
Speaker 4: You know, you're not the one who drove it off
Speaker 4: the tracks though with the multiple bachelors, because that was
Speaker 4: a shark jumping moment.
Speaker 1: I couldn't keep art.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: You've been involved in you've been involved in in very
Speaker 3: very highly successful shows, and you've been involved in shows that,
Speaker 3: even though they've been highly successful and you're trying new things,
Speaker 3: sometimes those things don't work and you're doing everything you can,
Speaker 3: and you know, sometimes things change around you. You're doing
Speaker 3: all the stuff you're doing right and it might it
Speaker 3: might not hit, but you've got to take a risk.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: I think there's a lot of factors that went into
Speaker 3: how there's there's always a lot of factors that go
Speaker 3: into how a TV format grows and changes over time.
Speaker 3: Some of those things make that TV format keep going
Speaker 3: and sometimes they don't. But sometimes those things are completely
Speaker 3: iudio control. You know, it could be the license fee
Speaker 3: that they signed with the format owner that makes it
Speaker 3: no longer affordable to make. It's got nothing to do
Speaker 3: with with you. It's show business, not your friends. And
Speaker 3: there may be a business case that doesn't equal the
Speaker 3: production budget and then the show stops going and that's.
Speaker 4: Fine, okay, So on that note, this is an unusual time.
Speaker 1: But in show.
Speaker 4: Bees, which is my bees and your bees, these are
Speaker 4: weird times. And we know that the weird times have
Speaker 4: come and knocking for other people already. Do you know
Speaker 4: what I mean? Like in automation of production or someone
Speaker 4: who was a journalist would know this, But now it's
Speaker 4: knocking on our door.
Speaker 1: How does that feel?
Speaker 4: Because you have been such a big part of Australian television,
Speaker 4: You've been one of the most widely seen hosts across
Speaker 4: a variety of formats, and because you are prone to introspection,
Speaker 4: how do you process that?
Speaker 2: So what you're talking about is that? And I asked
Speaker 2: this this morning.
Speaker 3: We're recording this a day after I was voted off
Speaker 3: the Island of Dancing with the Stuff, and I asked
Speaker 3: the publicist johnno this morning, I said, what were the
Speaker 3: numbers last night? And you know, he said, some numbers whatever,
Speaker 3: they were nine hundred something. I was like, oh, so
Speaker 3: nine is a new one and ones a new two.
Speaker 2: Pretty much. There was a time when you would get
Speaker 2: two million and not even you know, you.
Speaker 3: Get one point five, not even blinked, right, you get
Speaker 3: one point five now like you're taking the.
Speaker 2: Board to lunch.
Speaker 1: Or they're taking you to lunch.
Speaker 2: Yeah, my part.
Speaker 3: I can only control my part in this, Kate, and
Speaker 3: that would be that I was so busy trying to
Speaker 3: be the healthiest. I could be the best husband, I
Speaker 3: could be the best dad stepdad, that I could be
Speaker 3: the best person who does my job.
Speaker 2: That I could be, and trying to be that.
Speaker 3: Not succeeding, but you know, to the level I would
Speaker 3: like to in many of those ways, but doing my
Speaker 3: very best. I was too busy doing that to look
Speaker 3: up and notice things like share prices and ratings and
Speaker 3: viewership across the board and market ad spend and business
Speaker 3: stuff that I have never really needed to pay attention
Speaker 3: to earlier in my career, but lately understood that, oh crikey,
Speaker 3: if the ad revenue is not coming in, then the
Speaker 3: production budget's not justified, and it's got nothing to do
Speaker 3: with the kind of job that I do. I could
Speaker 3: do the best job ever. Both the show's too expensive
Speaker 3: to make, they can't make it, and so that was
Speaker 3: my part. I was too busy making this stuff. And
Speaker 3: then I kind of looked up and realized I was
Speaker 3: the last one left. Other people had seen this coming,
Speaker 3: but I didn't, And that's my responsibility to own. We're
Speaker 3: in a very very interesting time, Don't get me wrong.
Speaker 3: There's more people looking at screens than they've ever looked
Speaker 3: at screens before. Yes, there's more advertising money and visual
Speaker 3: media than there has been in a really, really, really
Speaker 3: long time. It's just not in the business models that
Speaker 3: existed that I came up.
Speaker 1: It's not on the big screen in the living room.
Speaker 3: Well it is, it is, it's just not through the
Speaker 3: previously it inherent owned channels that existed. It's an arm
Speaker 3: wrestle over HDMI one for everyone's living room, okay, and
Speaker 3: most of the time that HDMI one is going to
Speaker 3: be at Apple Box or might be just a smart TV, right,
Speaker 3: and the first button's going to be Netflix, the second
Speaker 3: button's going to be YouTube, or maybe the other way around.
Speaker 3: And way down the end somewhere is Australian freedoware it apps,
Speaker 3: And that's really really difficult for many, many reasons.
Speaker 2: And it's not just from an industry reason.
Speaker 3: When you know, whenever I run into somebody that I've
Speaker 3: worked with, I'm like, oh my god, you're working Stoke
Speaker 3: for you. Okay, it's not just for those reasons. I
Speaker 3: feel that as a country we need to really take
Speaker 3: a long, hard look at ourselves about how much we
Speaker 3: value our culture and what value it is to us
Speaker 3: as a nation to have a cohesive cultural narrative.
Speaker 2: We still have it through sport, which we're lucky.
Speaker 4: Sort of, even though that it's a divide. That's a
Speaker 4: divide as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we do still like supports so much.
Speaker 3: But it is really really important that A great example
Speaker 3: would be the Coldplay meme. Yeah, okay, that moment where
Speaker 3: everyone knows the thing you're talking about. Yes, that hasn't
Speaker 3: happened in three fucking years, okay, but it used to
Speaker 3: happen every day. Every single day. You would go to
Speaker 3: work and say did you see that? I saw that?
Speaker 3: And everyone knew what you want.
Speaker 4: By the way, in case there's two people that don't know,
Speaker 4: it was the CEO with his head of HR at
Speaker 4: the Cold Blake concert. Who got caught on the jumbo
Speaker 4: tron kissing It was sprang apart so guiltily it was.
Speaker 1: It was okay.
Speaker 3: Chris Martin shitting ingrin really sold it though, it was
Speaker 3: like and even he knew.
Speaker 2: You really needed that on the scene. But this is
Speaker 2: this is the thing.
Speaker 3: We we had this cultural moment that complete strangers were
Speaker 3: able to relate to the same thing and go, yes,
Speaker 3: we both saw this thing, and we both relate to
Speaker 3: this thing, and this gives us a little way point
Speaker 3: for which to navigate the rest of our lives around
Speaker 3: because right now, there used to be four versions of
Speaker 3: the news every night, and that was what the news.
Speaker 2: Was all right.
Speaker 3: Now there's any version of the news that you want,
Speaker 3: and none of it will make you uncomfortable. If you choose,
Speaker 3: you can watch all your news through a lens that
Speaker 3: gives you just what you want to hear about it,
Speaker 3: and not what you don't that makes you feel funny
Speaker 3: in the tummy. It's really important that we see ourselves
Speaker 3: and our stories on screen, and whether it be through
Speaker 3: an unscripted format like a singing show or a cooking
Speaker 3: show or Great Australian Bake Off, which I love, even
Speaker 3: though I can't eat any of it because I'm vegan
Speaker 3: and Celiac, but it's somethink.
Speaker 2: It's a really wholesome show and I really love it.
Speaker 3: Or you know, any kind of nonscripted reality show or drama.
Speaker 3: It's really really important that we see our culture reflected.
Speaker 3: Otherwise we're just going to end up like a weird
Speaker 3: echo of America and the right and because the Australian
Speaker 3: cultural value needs it's the third actor in any scene
Speaker 3: that you ever watch, right, the way that Australians look
Speaker 3: at something. If you look at any American cop show
Speaker 3: or any American show, there's always the idea that someone
Speaker 3: might have a gun and they're not afraid to use it.
Speaker 2: Well, that doesn't happen. So how do we get out
Speaker 2: of a sticky situation here? All Right?
Speaker 3: It's really really important that we value our culture, and
Speaker 3: we value our storytellers, and that we value the people
Speaker 3: that make those stories. We wouldn't let gastroentrologists go out of
Speaker 3: work if we suddenly killed Celiac disease, but we would
Speaker 3: keep them around in case we needed them. But we're
Speaker 3: about to have this gigantic loss of knowledge in our
Speaker 3: storytelling industries, radio, television, film that we're not going to
Speaker 3: get back.
Speaker 2: And that's a really weird place for us to be.
Speaker 4: And I don't think anybody would argue that it's not important.
Speaker 4: And when I say anybody, I mean people. People know
Speaker 4: that's important. People know what they value.
Speaker 3: There was a thing that used to happen where we
Speaker 3: had local content rules. Having worked in radio, you would
Speaker 3: understand why you would have Australian artist on radio because
Speaker 3: there was a mandate if you had a broadcast license
Speaker 3: you needed to play a certain percentage of Australian music.
Speaker 3: Right that also exists with free toware broadcasters. You have
Speaker 3: to have a certain percentage of Australian content that does
Speaker 3: not exist for the streamers. Okay, And we talk a
Speaker 3: lot about tariffs or subsidies and such like this. We'll
Speaker 3: subsidize fossil fuel in our country up the freakin' wa Zoo.
Speaker 3: We will give overseas companies billions of dollars of our
Speaker 3: sovereign wealth for no tax whatsoever. We're not protecting our
Speaker 3: culture and protecting the stories that make us Australian. By
Speaker 3: protecting our storytelling industries, we don't will high vis so
Speaker 3: we don't matter and that sucks. But when it's gone,
Speaker 3: we're not going to be able to get it back.
Speaker 3: And then we become this, like I said, we've become
Speaker 3: this weird rhyming slang of you know, either an American
Speaker 3: or a British view on things, and it's really weird.
Speaker 4: So Ashualy, you know, you referred to having several jobs
Speaker 4: now to pay your mortgage thirteen and I think you
Speaker 4: said now whereas once it only took one or two.
Speaker 4: Not literal, but your point is a valid one you
Speaker 4: must encounter all the time, the assumption that because you
Speaker 4: work in such a public facing role that you are
Speaker 4: cashed up to the moon and back.
Speaker 3: I'm the same as anybody, right, I know we're supposed
Speaker 3: to live within our means. But like anyone, you get
Speaker 3: the mortgage that you think, yeah, we can do that.
Speaker 2: I don't you want job you're in, that's what you do,
Speaker 2: and you just back yourself. Yep, thirty years, let's go,
Speaker 2: otherwise you'll never leave the rental.
Speaker 4: And by the way, everyone's mortgage in Australia now is
Speaker 4: eye watering.
Speaker 2: Everybody.
Speaker 3: I don't care who you are, all right, you got
Speaker 3: the mortgage that you breathed in through your teeth, and
Speaker 3: it might.
Speaker 2: Be caravan parks for wild kids, and you know when.
Speaker 3: It comes to holidays, but you hit go and and
Speaker 3: our situation is the same. You know, you you live,
Speaker 3: you build a life, you know within, you build a
Speaker 3: life that is in response to the work that you're doing.
Speaker 3: And certainly once kids show up, you know, you get
Speaker 3: into schools and you start doing all kinds of things,
Speaker 3: and those expenses don't just go away. I had four
Speaker 3: primetime TV shows on the mortgage form. None of those
Speaker 3: I was going to show.
Speaker 4: I hope that's not the time that you actually got
Speaker 4: your mortgage, but it is.
Speaker 3: It was, and none of those shows exist now. But
Speaker 3: we're still here because I have had to be very
Speaker 3: innovative about what you said, I'm trying to do here.
Speaker 3: It's the same dance at anyone plays. And you know,
Speaker 3: whether we get to stay here or not, I don't know.
Speaker 3: But look the days of oh, you've got our job
Speaker 3: in television, so now you are set for life that
Speaker 3: have not.
Speaker 2: Existed since the eighties.
Speaker 3: Man, like pre GFC TV money, I saw the like
Speaker 3: a glimpse of the back end of it, But that
Speaker 3: stuff doesn't yest.
Speaker 2: Not in Australia, no way. Man. Nah. There's people who
Speaker 2: don't work anywhere near broadcast.
Speaker 3: TV that make way more money using their freaking phone.
Speaker 1: This is very interesting because it's interesting kind.
Speaker 4: Of on a macro and a micro level, or you know,
Speaker 4: on a more personal level.
Speaker 1: What does it mean for you?
Speaker 4: Like, how do you feel about Really, you've been on
Speaker 4: our screens for I'm going to say twenty years longer.
Speaker 2: Probably started in ninety nine, Yeah, so.
Speaker 1: Twenty six years.
Speaker 4: What does it feel like for you when you realize,
Speaker 4: like you said that this was you with a frog
Speaker 4: in the boiling water, not really realizing what was going
Speaker 4: on around you. But like you said, you've got a
Speaker 4: mortgage to pay, and you've got a wife, and you've
Speaker 4: got a kid, you've got to a step daughter, and
Speaker 4: you've got a life to live.
Speaker 1: How does that feel?
Speaker 2: I mean, like, I mean, I'm not special.
Speaker 3: I'm not the only fifty something year old guy that's
Speaker 3: found themselves at the wrong end of a you know,
Speaker 3: a shrinkage in a market or a technological iteration. You know,
Speaker 3: this happens in many, many, many industries. As we mentioned,
Speaker 3: I just get to do it public a little more
Speaker 3: publicly than others. And you know, in many ways, it's
Speaker 3: what the book is about.
Speaker 2: It's you know, four wonderful words. So what now?
Speaker 3: What Am I going to be upset about it? Or
Speaker 3: am I going to do something about it? Because I
Speaker 3: can be upset about it, but all that's going to
Speaker 3: happen is I'll just stay upset about it and nothing
Speaker 3: will happen and it'll just get worse. Or I could
Speaker 3: do something about it, and being in action will get
Speaker 3: me as long as I'm in moving towards what I value,
Speaker 3: which is looking after my family and try to connect
Speaker 3: with people and try to make people feel less alone.
Speaker 3: Being an action will feel better, even if it's not
Speaker 3: bringing money in the door.
Speaker 2: Being an action will feel better than doing nothing.
Speaker 3: And it is through that action that the clues and
Speaker 3: the spontaneity and the serendipity that bring the next opportunity.
Speaker 1: A right, So the so what now?
Speaker 4: What is based on a certain type of therapy? You
Speaker 4: know a lot about therapy? Can you tell me what
Speaker 4: types of therapy you know about?
Speaker 3: Oh? Well, look, it's different courses for different horses.
Speaker 2: Okay, If horse rest is your thing, it's not really mine.
Speaker 3: But you know, you can go to a physio for
Speaker 3: some things, you go to a chiropractor for others. All right,
Speaker 3: there's the same people they put their elbows in your back,
Speaker 3: but they do different things. Similarly, there's different kinds of
Speaker 3: therapists for different kinds of situations, and therapy is something
Speaker 3: that you can go to for a while and then
Speaker 3: you get us at tools and the kind of hold
Speaker 3: your hand for a bit and then they kind of
Speaker 3: patch you on the bum and send you off into
Speaker 3: the world. And with that set of tools, you've now
Speaker 3: been able to expand your universe and have a bit
Speaker 3: more possibility. But then might happen is now you're in
Speaker 3: this new world and you can do things. You might
Speaker 3: get an new job or a new partner, or have
Speaker 3: a kid, or change jobs or move state. And now
Speaker 3: you've got a bit more stress in your life. Oh
Speaker 3: now I don't have enough skills. I better go back
Speaker 3: and grab a few more tools so I can get
Speaker 3: through this next bit. And so that's basically what I've done,
Speaker 3: because I know when I'm outgunned, and I know when
Speaker 3: I need ideas that aren't mine to get me out
Speaker 3: of the woods. And I think The first bunch of
Speaker 3: therapy I learned was cognitive behavioral therapy. It's called CBT.
Speaker 3: But don't google that because you will not find behavioral therapy.
Speaker 2: Oh no, no no.
Speaker 3: And that's a broadly kind of available It's got its
Speaker 3: ups and downs, you know, but a broadly available, self
Speaker 3: administered kind of thing, and it's really really powerful stuff.
Speaker 2: You've got to work at it, though, you've got to
Speaker 2: use it.
Speaker 4: Is that a one on one thing? So you go
Speaker 4: to the cognitive behavior therapists?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, they teach you how to do it.
Speaker 3: They teach you how to do it, but it's very
Speaker 3: much learning how to observe your thoughts and feelings, understand
Speaker 3: that they might not necessarily be right. Understand that there's
Speaker 3: a common set of distortions that our brains can do,
Speaker 3: like black or white thinking, or predicting the future, or
Speaker 3: catastrophizing or magnifying or diminishing and go hang on any
Speaker 3: of those things, going on, Oh yeah they are. Okay,
Speaker 3: what's a different thought I might be able to have
Speaker 3: about this?
Speaker 2: Oh? I could think about it in this way?
Speaker 3: Okay, great, let's try that, and then just taking the
Speaker 3: breath and going all right, like it could mean like
Speaker 3: the day that I lost two jobs in one day,
Speaker 3: the ones that how I ended up like no job,
Speaker 3: out of money, out of work, living in America, and
Speaker 3: my man, David, he says to me, I'm excited for you, pal.
Speaker 3: It means that universe have got bigger plans for you.
Speaker 3: I said, I don't believe you, man, you didn't hear me.
Speaker 3: I just said I lost both my last one day
Speaker 3: and I have no job. I don't believe you heard me.
Speaker 3: I'm excited for you. The universe has bigger plans for you. Now,
Speaker 3: I'm not really a believer in the universe gives me
Speaker 3: what I ask for kind of thing. But what he
Speaker 3: was trying to tell me was you can look at
Speaker 3: it like everything sucks and my life is terrible, or
Speaker 3: you can look at it as okay, now I can
Speaker 3: make anything happen here.
Speaker 2: Both those things can be true. We get to choose
Speaker 2: which one.
Speaker 3: And that's kind of what the cognitive behavioral therapy thing, right,
Speaker 3: Acceptance commitment therapy is.
Speaker 1: This is this so what?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Now what?
Speaker 2: Yah? So yeah, that's yeah, we worked.
Speaker 3: Accept As commitment therapy is it does what it says
Speaker 3: on the tin, right, and it is accepting the thing
Speaker 3: you can't control, and then action in accordance with your values.
Speaker 3: I'm not alone in this, but about I don't know,
Speaker 3: eight weeks or ten weeks before Wolfgang was born.
Speaker 2: I was doing really well.
Speaker 3: I was off meds for the first time in a
Speaker 3: long time, fantastic, life is going really well. That it
Speaker 3: was getting worse and I didn't want to I would
Speaker 3: admit it, and it was getting worse. And then we
Speaker 3: were on We had a weekend away with g and
Speaker 3: it was like the last week that we could fly
Speaker 3: before Audrey was like too pregnant to fly. And she
Speaker 3: just took one look at me and says, I need
Speaker 3: you to go back to you psychiatrist, get back on meds.
Speaker 3: You've got to be around because you're getting bad. And
Speaker 3: I knew enough to know, right I got to I
Speaker 3: don't know it when I'm in it. And if she's
Speaker 3: telling me, I need to go see my doctor, see
Speaker 3: my doctor. So I emailed him and he sent me
Speaker 3: a script.
Speaker 4: What could Audrey see that you couldn't see yourself because
Speaker 4: you were immersed? Like, how did it manifest?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 3: Very rigid thinking, inability to change plans, in ability to
Speaker 3: not do the thing that we talked about we were
Speaker 3: going to do this morning. Now we're doing something else,
Speaker 3: and just like it, being in a like unable to
Speaker 3: cope with it short of temper, snappy, cranky, that kind
Speaker 3: of stuff. But the rigid thinking is the and being
Speaker 3: being a bit lost my brain getting very very full
Speaker 3: with the noise of the scaries. That kind of takes
Speaker 3: me a bit out at the moment. I kind of
Speaker 3: get this, I'm not here look in my eye because
Speaker 3: I'm busy tending to trying to put out the fires
Speaker 3: in my head. And so I got back on the
Speaker 3: meds and I was doing it. I was trying really hard,
Speaker 3: but it wasn't getting better. And I was like, fucking hell,
Speaker 3: I'm going to end up on anti psychotics again, because
Speaker 3: I was on two kinds of anti psychotics and a
Speaker 3: bunch of other heavy meds because.
Speaker 2: I got really, really sick.
Speaker 3: And I'm like, I didn't want to get back on
Speaker 3: those meds because they're great because you're not crazy, but
Speaker 3: you put a lot of weight because they messed with
Speaker 3: your instulin response and your testosterone goes out the window
Speaker 3: and the world feels like blue tag But it's nice
Speaker 3: because you're not dealing with suicidal idiation all day. But
Speaker 3: after a while it gets a bit like is this it?
Speaker 3: So I went and found someone here in Sydney and
Speaker 3: we started talking and lo and behold, she was the
Speaker 3: one that helped me go through all the exposure, therapy,
Speaker 3: all the you know.
Speaker 2: All that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3: It's teaching me the skill set to be with the
Speaker 3: uncomfortable thoughts feelings, making space for those uncomfortable thoughts and
Speaker 3: feelings and knowing that I can hold them in one hand,
Speaker 3: and also be with the joy and giggling of my
Speaker 3: son seeing rainbow lorikeet for the first time, and be
Speaker 3: able to hold both of those things because what was
Speaker 3: happening is my brain was just so full of the
Speaker 3: negative I couldn't feel the good stuff. We have the
Speaker 3: capacity to hold joy and sadness at the same time,
Speaker 3: we have enough room to do it, but we brain
Speaker 3: can get tripped to think, oh, it's bad, so everything's
Speaker 3: got to be bad.
Speaker 4: Coming up after the break, Asher shares why being a
Speaker 4: step parent is harder than being a parent. This is
Speaker 4: very interesting who I constantly think about now when I
Speaker 4: hear you do all of this.
Speaker 1: To explain all of this and the journey zeh is
Speaker 1: audrey O wife.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yes, because it's one thing to be the person
Speaker 4: who's putting the pieces in the puzzle of yourself, and
Speaker 4: it's another thing to be the person who loves the
Speaker 4: person who's constantly putting pieces and analyzing pieces and trying
Speaker 4: to find how to make the picture complete or whatever,
Speaker 4: like that's an amazing thing. She fell in love with you.
Speaker 4: Did you explain to her how complex you were?
Speaker 3: I let her know her like the moment that it
Speaker 3: had the hint of becoming romantic. I told her, Look,
Speaker 3: I'm on a lot of anti psychotics and you know,
Speaker 3: some SSRIs and nsros, so you know, if there's a
Speaker 3: muted response, that's what's going on. So she knew from
Speaker 3: the start, all right, But it is it is not easy.
Speaker 3: It is not easy to be with someone who's trying
Speaker 3: their best to trying to use the brain they've got
Speaker 3: to live with the brain they've got.
Speaker 2: It's really hard.
Speaker 3: Because you mentioned the puzzle analogy, like a lot of
Speaker 3: the time, a lot of the time, the big problems are, oh,
Speaker 3: that's the answer, and then you know, charging at it
Speaker 3: and then flipping the whole puzzle table upside down and
Speaker 3: then having to start again and all you were trying
Speaker 3: to do is make it better. And it sucks, man,
Speaker 3: It sucks to know that sometimes I cause pain.
Speaker 2: To you know, my wife and my family.
Speaker 3: Because of a physiological thing that's going on between my ears.
Speaker 3: But being aware of it is all I can do,
Speaker 3: and taking action about it is all I can do.
Speaker 4: How old was Georgia when you and Audrey got together?
Speaker 2: She was ten?
Speaker 4: Ah? Interesting? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's an amazing time to
Speaker 4: enter a girl's life. Important.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, step fatherhood is I'm gonna I'm there's step
Speaker 3: parenting and then there's parenting, and I do both, Kate,
Speaker 3: and I'm here to tell you step parenting is harder.
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, And why is that?
Speaker 3: Because you love the kid just as much, you dedicate
Speaker 3: your life to them just as much.
Speaker 2: And because her dad's amazing. He's an amazing guy. I
Speaker 2: love him.
Speaker 3: He's a great dude, and he's her dad. And I'm
Speaker 3: never going to be there, all right, And I never
Speaker 3: wanted to. I'm never going to and I never tried
Speaker 3: to be Okay, though, there is a like this this
Speaker 3: thing inside you that's like, oh there's a bit missing,
Speaker 3: all right, and it's tough. It's really tough. It's really tough,
Speaker 3: but it doesn't stop the reason that you want to
Speaker 3: do it right.
Speaker 4: Okay, can I ask this? Did you have therapy for
Speaker 4: being a step parent?
Speaker 3: Oh? Fuck, yeah, absolutely, yeah, so I was. That's the
Speaker 3: trickiest part about being a stepparent is you are thrown
Speaker 3: into this job without any of the training.
Speaker 2: Babies a great because it's the same thing.
Speaker 3: Every two hours for about three months if you're lucky,
Speaker 3: and then slowly, over time you figure it out and
Speaker 3: they're usually too little to notice when you've really fucked
Speaker 3: it up. And you know, Maggie didn't said thirty percents
Speaker 3: good enough, so I just aim for that, and so
Speaker 3: you learn over time.
Speaker 2: How to deal with it.
Speaker 3: And then I'm thrown into We moved in together when
Speaker 3: she was eleven, so I've an eleven year old with
Speaker 3: like about six weeks of parenting experience, and I made
Speaker 3: a lot of mistakes I wish I didn't make, but
Speaker 3: I was doing the best I could with what I had,
Speaker 3: and Audrey brilliantly recognized that we were going in a
Speaker 3: not a great direction and a man, I love the
Speaker 3: Australian healthcare system. I lived in America for ten years,
Speaker 3: where universal kid does not exist. She reached out to
Speaker 3: the children's hospital near US. They had a brilliant out
Speaker 3: patient unit and one specifically designed for blended families coming together.
Speaker 2: And it was magnificent. It was magnificent.
Speaker 3: I think she saw g I think once or twice,
Speaker 3: I don't know. But the rest of the time was
Speaker 3: me and Audrey and.
Speaker 1: What did you learn about yourself?
Speaker 4: Because I think one of the things about being a
Speaker 4: parent or being in a parental role is it's really
Speaker 4: illuminating about yourself.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, it's the best and worst thing about
Speaker 3: having kids is they don't do what you tell them.
Speaker 2: But I'll do everything you show them.
Speaker 1: That's so true.
Speaker 2: It is right.
Speaker 3: You start to hear them saying, feel like, she's why
Speaker 3: does that piss me? Do it?
Speaker 2: Where did you learn it?
Speaker 3: Fuck?
Speaker 2: You learn it from me and I learned it from
Speaker 2: my dad. Fuck it's on me. I have to stop this.
Speaker 1: So back to Audrey.
Speaker 4: When the role that someone plays when they love someone
Speaker 4: anyway is in an any successful relationship of supporting role.
Speaker 4: I don't mean a lesser role, but I mean literally
Speaker 4: one of support.
Speaker 1: But then how do you when you have so much.
Speaker 4: Consuming you and the work of life and working out
Speaker 4: your life, taking such a big chunk of you to
Speaker 4: navigate things. How do you make sure that as your wife,
Speaker 4: she's represented on the ledger?
Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean? Well, because because she takes.
Speaker 4: You have to take such good care of you, careful
Speaker 4: care of you, and she's also taking care of you,
Speaker 4: how are you taking care of her?
Speaker 2: Oh? This is the balance that any person in a
Speaker 2: relationship has to face. In it there's the work life balance.
Speaker 3: But if you're also dealing with something else, I don't know,
Speaker 3: if you're managing type one diabetes or whatever, like, you've
Speaker 3: got to figure it out and you've got to put
Speaker 3: systems in place. Okay, Yeah, And that's that's the way
Speaker 3: that I try. I try to get around it, Like
Speaker 3: I don't. I have varying degrees of success in this,
Speaker 3: and sometimes I think I'm doing a great job and
Speaker 3: I'm doing a terrible job. Sometimes I think I really
Speaker 3: need to do more around here, and she's fine. More
Speaker 3: around here is in like you know, as in connecting
Speaker 3: with youths. Fine, But there's also the reality of you know,
Speaker 3: there's the first kracky pretty much until they're teenagers that
Speaker 3: are out with their friends a bit, the relationship that
Speaker 3: you have, the intimate relationship you have at home with
Speaker 3: you know, your personal parenting your kids with is.
Speaker 2: Going to be affected. I don't care who you are.
Speaker 3: There isn't enough bandwidth to do all of it, and
Speaker 3: you're just going to have to find, you know, often
Speaker 3: the kids are going to win. They're going to win,
Speaker 3: all right, and you've got to be okay with with that.
Speaker 2: And it's it's hard. I'm not saying he's got to
Speaker 2: be okay with me being a ship husband.
Speaker 3: I'm just saying that there is an element of that
Speaker 3: that everybody deals with. But then there's the added element
Speaker 3: that Audrey has to deal with where.
Speaker 2: I, you know, part of the brain.
Speaker 3: When I first got diagnosed my my doctor, you know,
Speaker 3: I was like, oh my god, I got what he goes, Well,
Speaker 3: what do you think you've got? The career you've got?
Speaker 3: Come on, man, all right?
Speaker 4: So what was that diagnosis by? What was the first diagnosis?
Speaker 2: Wasn't the PTSD?
Speaker 3: Is when he when we started exploring o c D,
Speaker 3: when we started exploring obsessive compulsive disorder.
Speaker 2: There's a collective a few letters.
Speaker 3: Some of which I've spoken about so which I'll speak
Speaker 3: about in good time, but he helped me understand, like, well,
Speaker 3: of course this is why you've got the life you've got,
Speaker 3: because you've got this brain that your job now is
Speaker 3: you need to take respond it's ability for it. And
Speaker 3: you know, sometimes I can get I can get very
Speaker 3: very focused, possibly too focused on things, and just forget,
Speaker 3: not even forget. It's not even forget implies that it's
Speaker 3: not important. My psychiatrist told me that I've got two
Speaker 3: time zones. I've got now and not now, And sometimes
Speaker 3: when I'm in the now part, it's as if the
Speaker 3: not now doesn't exist. But then when I'm in the
Speaker 3: knot now, which is now now, I think, why the
Speaker 3: fuck didn't I do something about this? And now I
Speaker 3: am facing the consequences of my inability to act when
Speaker 3: I was back there in the now part, and that's very,
Speaker 3: very hard, and trying to create systems that bridge those
Speaker 3: two time zones has it's an ongoing challenge, and I
Speaker 3: am I'm still trying to figure out how how to.
Speaker 2: Do it best. What he puts up with a lot
Speaker 2: she really does.
Speaker 4: That's not all to my conversation with Osha after this break.
Speaker 4: He explains how his wife, Audrey, has saved him. If
Speaker 4: you had not embarked on the discovery via your various
Speaker 4: forms of therapy, or your veganism or your giving up
Speaker 4: alcohol or whatever, where do you think you would be now?
Speaker 1: And who would you be?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 3: I would be dead, There's no question, no question. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I wouldn't be alive. There's absolutely no question, no question
Speaker 3: at all. The horror that I was living with forget
Speaker 3: about it, absolutely forget about it. But I got really,
Speaker 3: really lucky because I knew something was wrong. I got
Speaker 3: very lucky that not only did I realize something wasn't right,
Speaker 3: I also got very lucky in that I knew there
Speaker 3: had to be more to life than this. I did
Speaker 3: not get born to wake up every day to be
Speaker 3: in this level of pain and anxiety. This is not
Speaker 3: what I was born for. There is more than this.
Speaker 3: It cannot end with this. Cant this cannot be this
Speaker 3: for the next fifty years of my life. It has
Speaker 3: to get better. And I thankfully I have this brain
Speaker 3: that once I said it on course, it just goes.
Speaker 3: I got lucky and I was able to set my
Speaker 3: brain on like, no, we will not accept this shittiness.
Speaker 2: We are going to find a way out of this.
Speaker 4: What would you like to say to Audrey Osha, say
Speaker 4: something to you for life?
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yeah, It's no secret that Audrey saved my life.
Speaker 3: There's no question because she when I was really bad,
Speaker 3: she looked at me and she saw me and she
Speaker 3: saw my sick brain as two separate things. And that
Speaker 3: was very, very lucky that she did. So I'm so
Speaker 3: grateful for Audrey's kindness and care and self reflection and
Speaker 3: willingness to work on this all right, because I was told,
Speaker 3: you know, after I've got divorced, and I was a
Speaker 3: bit MOPy made of mine just said, mate, look, there's
Speaker 3: no such thing as the one. There's just the one
Speaker 3: who wants to work on it with you, and that's it.
Speaker 3: And Audrey wants to work on this. Sometimes it's shift
Speaker 3: fucking hard, man. Sometimes it's real.
Speaker 4: Hard, I believe, just keeping up with the parts of
Speaker 4: the alphabet that you know about.
Speaker 1: There's a lot.
Speaker 3: Anyone that tries to tell you that marriage is not
Speaker 3: a participation support is lying to you.
Speaker 2: All right.
Speaker 3: There's getting married and then there's staying married. They're two
Speaker 3: different things, and one of them is a far more active,
Speaker 3: participatory kind of thing.
Speaker 2: You really need to do it. You can't just expect
Speaker 2: it to be there.
Speaker 3: And you know, there's times where, like anybody, like, there's
Speaker 3: times where you're like, I don't know how we're going
Speaker 3: to get to the end of the day is to
Speaker 3: be married, and then at nighttime you're on the couch.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I love your shit? Are you?
Speaker 3: And I'm just so grateful that Audrey is as of today,
Speaker 3: still willing to work on it with me.
Speaker 2: I've put her through the Ringer.
Speaker 3: Man, but she's not alone, you know, and I'm very
Speaker 3: I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful that she still has
Speaker 3: the willingness to work on this with me.
Speaker 4: When you talk about also being a good dad to
Speaker 4: Wolfy as well, how old he now nearly six, What
Speaker 4: is the most important thing for you to model for him?
Speaker 4: Like you said, people are always saying I tell my
Speaker 4: kid this, and I tell my kid that, which is
Speaker 4: not really taking into account as you said, they're watching
Speaker 4: what we do.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: What's the most important?
Speaker 3: I think at this point it is to be kind
Speaker 3: and to be courageous and just teaching to be kind,
Speaker 3: try shrying to be kind and shrying to be courageous,
Speaker 3: all right, but you know he's five and it's going
Speaker 3: to make mistakes. But that's also you know, to be
Speaker 3: kind to yourself, to give yourself a break.
Speaker 1: Oshagunsberg, Kate Langbrook. If if you were to.
Speaker 4: Lose everything materially and you were down to the essence
Speaker 4: of yourself, what part of yourself would you want to
Speaker 4: hold onto the most?
Speaker 2: Curiosity? I think I think that's the for me.
Speaker 3: That's the key is to try to be curious, and
Speaker 3: remember when I'm not being curious, just try to notice
Speaker 3: what's going on. Like I'm here without any of my
Speaker 3: stuff or my things or my little hand holdly thing
Speaker 3: that I play with, and I'm talking to people like
Speaker 3: you or my sauna or my kids or whatever.
Speaker 2: How do I feel about that?
Speaker 3: Because if I noticed how I feel about it, then
Speaker 3: it's the two of us. It's the person that might
Speaker 3: feel shitty about it and the person that's looking at
Speaker 3: the person feeling shitty about it. And now I have
Speaker 3: a choice, because if I'm just in it, I don't
Speaker 3: really have many choices. Do I start to just be
Speaker 3: reactive and that's probably not a great place to be.
Speaker 2: So I would say, yeah, curiosity, and are you happy?
Speaker 3: Happiness is not a destination, nor is happiness at all
Speaker 3: something that lasts. Happiness is something that we must work at.
Speaker 3: Happiness is something that is never permanent, and happiness can
Speaker 3: only exist when we have sadness. Everything oscillates and we
Speaker 3: have to be okay with that.
Speaker 2: All right.
Speaker 3: We can find happiness, but it doesn't It doesn't show
Speaker 3: up when we buy shit. And this is the great
Speaker 3: fallacy of the community that we live in. And I'm
Speaker 3: as bad as anybody. Oh, look, other hour glass time
Speaker 3: I can put it in most Yes, I love that,
Speaker 3: all right, I'm as bad as anybody. I've got four
Speaker 3: pairs of headphones sitting on this desk. Can I wear
Speaker 3: four pairs of headphones at once?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 3: But I have four pairs of fucking headphones because I'm
Speaker 3: an Happiness does not arrive from the purchase of stuff.
Speaker 3: Happiness arrives from helping another person. Where are communal species?
Speaker 3: We evolved because we banded together in communities, and forty
Speaker 3: people are much better at looking after themselves than four,
Speaker 3: all right, And it is through helping others that we
Speaker 3: are wired to feel better. We are wired that we
Speaker 3: are rewarded when we help other people. So be of
Speaker 3: service to someone, help a person that will never help
Speaker 3: you back, and just feel how good it feels.
Speaker 1: What do you think is your primary service?
Speaker 2: My primary service?
Speaker 1: So I know that communicating with people is a big
Speaker 1: thing for you.
Speaker 2: I just want kids to be.
Speaker 3: You know, I want I want my kids to be
Speaker 3: a positive addition to the community we live in. All right.
Speaker 2: That's that's the best.
Speaker 3: That's what That's the best I can do, all right,
Speaker 3: that if I can make these two and help these
Speaker 3: two wonderful, incredibly wonderful people be a positive contribution and
Speaker 3: a positive addition to the community we live in, then
Speaker 3: then that's everything that I can. If I can help
Speaker 3: them find the things that they want in life, then
Speaker 3: that's it.
Speaker 2: Man, that's it. It wasn't just me. That was like
Speaker 2: a lot of people have to be there, Like we
Speaker 2: all work to do that. There's a lot of people.
Speaker 4: In our life that helpful, sure, the village, but you
Speaker 4: also have an extraordinary work ethic.
Speaker 2: I don't know how to not do it, all right,
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know what. I don't know
Speaker 2: what to do with myself If I'm not working, I don't.
Speaker 4: I know what you'll do sauna, I spa therapy, but
Speaker 4: you've got.
Speaker 2: To make money to pay the therapist. Cake, they're not free. Okay,
Speaker 2: maybe you need shoes you got from somewhere, all right?
Speaker 4: Ohha, thank you for joining us on No Filter. Thank you,
Speaker 4: thanks for letting me poke around in your head.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of stuff in there than.
Speaker 3: I should also thank you because I remember I was
Speaker 3: on radio once with a bloke you work for a
Speaker 3: long time, Mattie Acton, and it was a breakfast radio.
Speaker 2: It is a tricky beast and it was one morning.
Speaker 3: You know, I got fucking caught up in a bunch
Speaker 3: of shit in my brain and I kind of got
Speaker 3: caught up with something and I heard you rightly critique
Speaker 3: some ship that I sat on air, and I was
Speaker 3: really grateful you did that.
Speaker 2: Oh do you remember that?
Speaker 1: What was it? I no, I can't remember. I said
Speaker 1: something fucking dumb and what what's flavor of it?
Speaker 2: Was something about I think you was referring to a doctor.
Speaker 3: I was, I don't know what was going on with me,
Speaker 3: and he goes, so you doctor, did he do this?
Speaker 2: And I went, come on, Matte, doctors can be women. Too, dude,
Speaker 2: And it was.
Speaker 3: Like something that guy all right, Like I had a
Speaker 3: felt on and yeah, you know, and I was on
Speaker 3: about you know, patriarchy, this and that and the other,
Speaker 3: and you talked about it on air and I remember
Speaker 3: reading it and I went, you know what, she's you know,
Speaker 3: that's fucking that's fair. And it gave me an opportunity
Speaker 3: to have a look at where it was.
Speaker 2: And I was, actually, you know what.
Speaker 3: That was probably I've been a little caught up in
Speaker 3: a bit of this business, and it gave me an
Speaker 3: opportunity to have a bit of reflection and a bit
Speaker 3: of space on that.
Speaker 2: And so I'm grateful that you did that.
Speaker 1: I can't remember it, but thank you. I thank you
Speaker 1: for the thank you.
Speaker 2: No, it's important.
Speaker 3: It's important that we need to be able to change
Speaker 3: our minds because at the time I wouldn't have said
Speaker 3: it on air if I didn't believe it right, But
Speaker 3: when you spoke about it, I've kind of had a
Speaker 3: bit of a think about it, and you know what,
Speaker 3: that was a bit of.
Speaker 1: A oh oh, it's here.
Speaker 4: Being a puppet for the patriarchy is not something he
Speaker 4: can call anybody else out on because he works on
Speaker 4: a show called The Bachelor that pimps out a dozen
Speaker 4: young women to one man who's often a stripper, not always.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, we were.
Speaker 2: Were we?
Speaker 4: I was also wearing a felt hat, mind you, I
Speaker 4: was filling three hours a dance.
Speaker 1: Was wow, that's amazing and we could have we could
Speaker 1: have just done it.
Speaker 4: On top of a top of likening the reality show
Speaker 4: to one that pimps out young women, Langbrook slammed Gudsburg
Speaker 4: for calling his co host a puppet. You cannot Gunsburg
Speaker 4: accuse anybody else of being a puppet, a tool, or
Speaker 4: any part of the patriarchy as long as you are
Speaker 4: this person. The show then proceeded to play a snippet
Speaker 4: ofhs audio from the Batchel.
Speaker 2: And so wow, I'm grateful you.
Speaker 4: Oh things got hated between you and act and on Thursday,
Speaker 4: when Acting referred to a listener's boss as mail, Oh
Speaker 4: my goodness, I don't remember any of these well, but.
Speaker 2: I love I'm grateful that you.
Speaker 3: Isn't that wonderful how memory works for one, But I'm
Speaker 3: also I'm just grateful that I'm grateful that you did
Speaker 3: that all right, because we're not always going to get
Speaker 3: it right. And as we said at the start of
Speaker 3: this conversation, you know, I've chosen to put myself out
Speaker 3: into the public and at the of what the public
Speaker 3: think about what it is that I do.
Speaker 2: Some of those things I take and go nothing to
Speaker 2: do with me.
Speaker 3: Some of those things I go, you know what, You've
Speaker 3: got something there and I might need to I might
Speaker 3: need to check that. And so I'm grateful that you
Speaker 3: did that because it started me on a different way
Speaker 3: of thinking about things.
Speaker 2: So thank you.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm also checking myself. You know, you've got to
Speaker 1: check the checker.
Speaker 3: I believe it was asked QB who said you need
Speaker 3: to check yourself before you wreck yourself.
Speaker 4: Believe you are right, my friend, AUVOI Osha, see you soon,
Speaker 4: my friend.
Speaker 1: I think it's easy to think.
Speaker 4: Sometimes that people we see on our televisions are really
Speaker 4: the sum of the parts that we see, and Osha
Speaker 4: is the living embodiment of the fact that there's so
Speaker 4: much more than what comes through the television. If you've
Speaker 4: ever found yourself in a moment of reinvention or wondering
Speaker 4: what comes next, I hope this conversation has been helpful
Speaker 4: and has made you realize that you're not alone. In
Speaker 4: that boat in the Life Vote. I'm Kate lane Brook,
Speaker 4: host of No Filter. The executive producer is Nama Brown.
Speaker 4: Senior producer is Bree Player, with audio production by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 4: Thank you for listening to No Filter and I'll be
Speaker 4: back next week with another unforgettable guest.