WEBVTT - There Were 105 Bruises On Her Body 0:00:11.542 --> 0:00:16.182 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges 0:00:16.222 --> 0:00:19.702 the traditional owners of land and waters. This podcast was 0:00:19.742 --> 0:00:27.982 recorded on It's July twenty fourteen in Gympie in southeast 0:00:28.022 --> 0:00:32.102 Queensland and Alison Russell receives a phone call. It's about 0:00:32.102 --> 0:00:35.182 her daughter. Her boyfriend has told the paramedics she had 0:00:35.222 --> 0:00:38.222 an overdose of antidepressants, but after being rushed to the 0:00:38.262 --> 0:00:42.142 local hospital, Kyrillie McLaughlin's injuries are so severe she's been 0:00:42.222 --> 0:00:46.502 flown to the Gold Coast. She doesn't survive. The twenty 0:00:46.542 --> 0:00:50.502 seven year old dies the following day. A total of 0:00:50.542 --> 0:00:53.262 one hundred and five bruises are found on her body. 0:00:54.182 --> 0:00:56.982 The mother of Faur's official cause of death is from 0:00:56.982 --> 0:01:02.502 a catastrophic brain injury. Police have been called to Kirale's 0:01:02.542 --> 0:01:06.462 Beenham Valley Road home before the young mum had previously 0:01:06.502 --> 0:01:09.942 called Triple Zero herself, telling them her partner had attacked her. 0:01:10.622 --> 0:01:13.582 When they arrived, however, she told them she'd made a mistake. 0:01:14.902 --> 0:01:17.582 A few months later, she was dead and that's where 0:01:17.582 --> 0:01:22.062 the story ended for about eight years, because there were 0:01:22.062 --> 0:01:27.982 no arrests, no charges, no further investigations until two Gimpi 0:01:28.022 --> 0:01:31.582 police officers took matters into their own hands. 0:01:32.022 --> 0:01:34.942 You look at other suspicious deaths and there's plenty of 0:01:34.982 --> 0:01:37.382 coverage about them, but this just seemed to go by 0:01:37.422 --> 0:01:42.662 the wayside and she was forgotten. This case has been 0:01:42.702 --> 0:01:45.942 haunting me because I feel for the victim. I feel 0:01:45.982 --> 0:01:49.782 for her family. So when I left the police, I thought, 0:01:49.782 --> 0:01:51.422 now I could do something about it because I'm not 0:01:51.462 --> 0:01:52.702 a police officer anymore. 0:02:05.142 --> 0:02:08.342 I'm Jimmy Bath. And this is True Crime Conversations, a 0:02:08.422 --> 0:02:11.822 mom of Mere podcast exploring the world most notorious crimes 0:02:12.262 --> 0:02:15.182 by speaking to the people who know the most about them. 0:02:15.622 --> 0:02:18.822 This Domestic and Family Violence Prevention months, We're digging into 0:02:18.822 --> 0:02:22.782 our archives to revisit crimes that should have changed everything. 0:02:24.262 --> 0:02:26.822 In this case, two former cops found they were able 0:02:26.862 --> 0:02:28.702 to do more good for this victim and her family 0:02:28.982 --> 0:02:31.982 by using a podcast instead of their position within the 0:02:31.982 --> 0:02:35.142 police force to push for action. Let that sink in 0:02:35.182 --> 0:02:39.062 for a minute. In twenty nineteen, former Gimpe police officers 0:02:39.182 --> 0:02:42.662 Jamie Pultz and Tom Daunt started releasing episodes of their 0:02:42.662 --> 0:02:46.622 Beenham Valley Road investigation. It had been the case Jamie 0:02:46.622 --> 0:02:50.382 couldn't let go of he'd been called to Kirile's house 0:02:50.382 --> 0:02:52.742 while still on the bead, and he'd learned about her 0:02:52.782 --> 0:02:56.982 death while sitting in Gimpi police station. When he read 0:02:56.982 --> 0:02:59.982 her autopsy report, he noticed there was no mention of 0:03:00.022 --> 0:03:04.142 any domestic violence relationship, but he knew her former partner 0:03:04.222 --> 0:03:08.702 had multiple convictions for DV. He knew he'd previously gone 0:03:08.702 --> 0:03:11.822 to prison. He knew u Kiri Lee had been alone 0:03:11.862 --> 0:03:14.902 with him the night she was injured. He knew the 0:03:14.902 --> 0:03:18.302 toxicology report had suggested Kira Lee hadn't overdosed like the 0:03:18.342 --> 0:03:22.782 boyfriend had suggested. When Jamie spoke to True Crime Conversations 0:03:22.782 --> 0:03:26.142 in April twenty twenty, no one had been charged over 0:03:26.222 --> 0:03:30.862 Kira's death. A coronial inquest had been announced but not formalized. 0:03:31.822 --> 0:03:35.982 In twenty twenty four, all of that has changed, But 0:03:36.062 --> 0:03:38.662 first it's worth listening to where the case stood only 0:03:38.702 --> 0:03:54.022 a few short years ago. He's Jesse and Jamie. 0:03:48.782 --> 0:03:53.582 So you actually met Kierra McLaughlin. What was that encounter like? 0:03:54.702 --> 0:03:58.422 Yeah, so, Jesse, that was about twenty thirteen. I was 0:03:58.462 --> 0:04:03.102 a first year constable off police in Gimpi and you 0:04:03.102 --> 0:04:05.742 know the call when I went there wasn't actually for 0:04:05.822 --> 0:04:09.062 anything police related to do with her anyway. It's hard 0:04:09.062 --> 0:04:10.382 to explain what I was there for, but it was 0:04:10.502 --> 0:04:13.422 for something else. It was actually a case that was there. 0:04:13.702 --> 0:04:16.222 It was called the Torso case, and a torso had 0:04:16.302 --> 0:04:19.702 rocked up and had been burnt in a nearby area 0:04:19.942 --> 0:04:22.382 and no one knew who it was, and obviously, as 0:04:22.422 --> 0:04:25.182 a result, the police were going to every house and 0:04:25.262 --> 0:04:28.022 just checking that everybody was living there that was still 0:04:28.022 --> 0:04:30.902 alive and making sure they weren't the torso. And so 0:04:30.982 --> 0:04:32.742 as a result, I went to Kira's house and I 0:04:32.782 --> 0:04:35.142 knocked on the door and that's when I first met her. 0:04:35.182 --> 0:04:37.982 So that interaction was just the normal interaction. It was 0:04:38.062 --> 0:04:41.222 just an everyday job. And when I met her, she 0:04:41.262 --> 0:04:43.742 had four little kids, she was twenty seven. You know, 0:04:43.822 --> 0:04:46.182 she was nice. I could relate to her in that way. 0:04:46.902 --> 0:04:49.982 But it was the second call for a dramestic violence incident, 0:04:49.982 --> 0:04:52.982 which I can't go into too much details for legal reasons, 0:04:53.022 --> 0:04:56.262 But that was the one that really stuck with me 0:04:56.422 --> 0:05:01.222 because six months later or so, she was dead. And 0:05:02.142 --> 0:05:03.782 I guess that sort of players in your mind that 0:05:04.222 --> 0:05:06.702 did you do everything right? Or what could we have done? 0:05:06.862 --> 0:05:09.062 Or I guess you know, your brain plays tricks in. 0:05:09.022 --> 0:05:14.502 Your Did you meet her alongside her partner at the time. 0:05:15.182 --> 0:05:18.142 I met her the first time I was there. That 0:05:18.302 --> 0:05:22.182 was not to do with them. He was there and 0:05:22.222 --> 0:05:23.942 you know, it was like eight o'clock in the morning, 0:05:23.982 --> 0:05:26.142 I'm pretty sure, and he had a beer and he 0:05:26.222 --> 0:05:28.302 was a bit rough and just gave me that impression. 0:05:28.422 --> 0:05:29.942 I don't really need to say anymore. You kind of 0:05:29.942 --> 0:05:32.542 know what I'm talking about, but that kind of a 0:05:32.582 --> 0:05:35.342 guy been in trouble before and had a pretty big 0:05:35.462 --> 0:05:37.982 rap sheet. I didn't really speak to him too much, though, 0:05:38.022 --> 0:05:40.142 but my partner at the time when I was doing 0:05:40.182 --> 0:05:42.702 the podcast with Tom, he had actually interviewed him for 0:05:42.742 --> 0:05:45.022 a few offenses and knew him and was at the 0:05:45.022 --> 0:05:48.742 crime scene and he was involved in that way. But 0:05:49.022 --> 0:05:51.622 I didn't actually have to do anything with him apart 0:05:51.622 --> 0:05:52.582 from meeting him once. 0:05:53.382 --> 0:05:57.902 And the next time you heard Kira's name was in 0:05:58.102 --> 0:06:02.302 quite different circumstances. What had happened to Kira when you 0:06:02.382 --> 0:06:03.422 heard that again? 0:06:04.262 --> 0:06:07.102 Well, I was in the police station, I remember it 0:06:07.182 --> 0:06:10.342 very clearly, and someone popped up. I wasn't working at 0:06:10.662 --> 0:06:12.822 that day, and I remember coming back into work and 0:06:13.262 --> 0:06:17.742 someone had said, oh, Kira McLoughlin died, and you know, 0:06:18.022 --> 0:06:20.342 they discussed a little bit about it, how it was Susan, 0:06:20.622 --> 0:06:23.502 she'd been beaten, and I remember just sinking into the 0:06:23.582 --> 0:06:26.582 chair and just my heart dropped because it was the 0:06:26.622 --> 0:06:29.142 first time. I mean, I'd been to a few dead 0:06:29.142 --> 0:06:32.102 bodies already in my second shift was a dead body, 0:06:32.102 --> 0:06:35.182 and you come across them quite a lot, and domestic violences, 0:06:35.182 --> 0:06:37.302 but this is the first time that I had attended 0:06:37.342 --> 0:06:41.302 a job for domestic violence and this person had quite 0:06:41.422 --> 0:06:44.902 likely died as a result of domestic violence. That hasn't 0:06:44.942 --> 0:06:48.662 been proven, but that's where I'm thinking it went. And 0:06:48.742 --> 0:06:50.902 it really hit me because I thought, well, this is 0:06:51.022 --> 0:06:53.342 very serious, you know, like what we deal with, the 0:06:53.342 --> 0:06:56.142 conversations we have with people as we're attending these jobs. 0:06:56.302 --> 0:06:59.582 The consequences are massive, their life changing, their life threatening. 0:06:59.582 --> 0:07:01.022 It's hard to put into words really. 0:07:01.742 --> 0:07:04.182 And what was the cause of Kira's death. 0:07:05.022 --> 0:07:08.622 Catastrophic head injuries was the cause of her death. Basically, 0:07:09.502 --> 0:07:12.982 she was beaten to death. The pathologist doing the autopsy 0:07:13.422 --> 0:07:16.662 noted one hundred and five bruises on Kira's body, so 0:07:16.782 --> 0:07:19.622 that's a fair bit of damage. And the ultimate cause 0:07:19.662 --> 0:07:22.942 of death was head injuries and Alice and the mother 0:07:23.022 --> 0:07:26.022 had to make the heart wrenching decision to shut the 0:07:26.062 --> 0:07:28.622 life support off because there was actually her words were 0:07:28.662 --> 0:07:31.822 there was no brain activity left. The incident happened the 0:07:31.902 --> 0:07:37.542 day before. They were alone that night. Somewhere during that night, 0:07:37.662 --> 0:07:41.342 something's happened and she's been unconscious, and he waited like 0:07:41.422 --> 0:07:44.782 twelve hours to call ambulance and by the time they 0:07:44.822 --> 0:07:47.582 got there, she was in a pretty bad way. They 0:07:47.622 --> 0:07:50.542 took her to Gimpi, but they couldn't deal with what 0:07:50.622 --> 0:07:53.062 she had, so they flew her via helicopter to the 0:07:53.062 --> 0:07:56.462 Gold Coast University Hospital, where she died the next day. 0:07:57.182 --> 0:08:00.862 So going back to the day before, Kira had people 0:08:00.902 --> 0:08:02.382 over to the house, didn't. 0:08:02.062 --> 0:08:06.262 She Yeah, this was a matter of contention during the podcast. 0:08:06.342 --> 0:08:08.142 So to go back a little bit, when I was 0:08:08.142 --> 0:08:10.302 in the police, I remember hearing that there was some 0:08:10.542 --> 0:08:13.382 story of the sister of the guy I'm calling Jason, 0:08:13.462 --> 0:08:16.102 Kira's partner, which is not his real name. There was 0:08:16.102 --> 0:08:19.422 a conversation about her having a fight with Kira at 0:08:19.422 --> 0:08:22.702 that house Bean and Balley Road, And we didn't really 0:08:22.782 --> 0:08:24.822 know going into this podcast, we had no idea that 0:08:24.902 --> 0:08:27.182 was all we really knew because I couldn't go back 0:08:27.222 --> 0:08:29.742 and look on the police starticisms anymore, not being a cop. 0:08:29.822 --> 0:08:31.942 So what we did was we went to Allison and 0:08:31.982 --> 0:08:34.662 we asked her what she knew had happened, and she 0:08:34.782 --> 0:08:37.182 thought there was a gathering there of a few people. 0:08:37.462 --> 0:08:41.582 And throughout the podcast we learned that it was Jason, 0:08:41.822 --> 0:08:46.542 Jason's sister, Tamika who came on the podcast, Jason's nephew, 0:08:46.662 --> 0:08:50.102 and Tamik his nephew, Tamika's two year old, and at 0:08:50.102 --> 0:08:52.982 some point her mum was there. Jason and Tamika's mum 0:08:53.022 --> 0:08:55.742 was there in the afternoon for a little bit, and 0:08:55.862 --> 0:08:58.622 Kira and they were having drinks and they were playing music. 0:08:59.342 --> 0:09:01.182 But the part where this gets murky is that the 0:09:01.222 --> 0:09:03.982 neighbors don't agree with that they didn't see people, they 0:09:03.982 --> 0:09:07.822 didn't hear music. They can hear and see things because 0:09:07.902 --> 0:09:10.942 noise does travel in those sort of rural plays. But 0:09:11.942 --> 0:09:15.422 that's what the narrative we were given. And at some point, though, 0:09:15.782 --> 0:09:20.782 around about nine o'clock, they all left, including Jason, because Tamika, 0:09:20.822 --> 0:09:23.862 by her own admissions, had a fight with Kira and 0:09:23.942 --> 0:09:27.982 it was about something silly. They were drinking and it 0:09:28.022 --> 0:09:30.102 got out of hand and they were throwing tie chains 0:09:30.102 --> 0:09:32.822 and throwing cans of paint and it was pretty nasty, 0:09:33.222 --> 0:09:35.622 and Tamika says that she hit her about four times 0:09:35.662 --> 0:09:38.662 in total, at one point knocking her out. So Tamika 0:09:38.702 --> 0:09:40.622 does think, and she said on the record that she 0:09:40.702 --> 0:09:43.142 thinks that she might have had something to do with 0:09:43.182 --> 0:09:46.222 her death, even though it's probably not likely, but that's 0:09:46.262 --> 0:09:49.902 what she told us. Happened, and they all left the house. 0:09:50.102 --> 0:09:53.942 The mum picked them all up, leaving Kira alone. But 0:09:54.022 --> 0:09:57.782 at some point when everyone had left the house, Jason said, 0:09:57.822 --> 0:09:59.862 I need to go back. Kira is called to say 0:09:59.862 --> 0:10:02.702 that she's going to take all her pills kill herself basically. 0:10:02.782 --> 0:10:07.302 So the brother, Nakota, drove Jason back to the house 0:10:07.742 --> 0:10:10.302 and I spoke to Nakoda and he said that happened. 0:10:10.542 --> 0:10:12.742 He saw him walk up. He saw Kira there though, 0:10:12.782 --> 0:10:16.182 so she was alive at that point. After that, the 0:10:16.302 --> 0:10:18.982 other neighbor heard an argument and heard someone on the 0:10:18.982 --> 0:10:23.142 phone Jason saying, I fed up. I don't know what 0:10:23.222 --> 0:10:26.462 to do, and then they heard a car arrive. It 0:10:26.582 --> 0:10:29.862 was silent after that. The next morning, both neighbors on 0:10:29.902 --> 0:10:33.582 both sides saw a white car at around about eight 0:10:33.582 --> 0:10:36.902 o'clock in the morning at Kira's house with the man 0:10:36.902 --> 0:10:38.542 and a woman getting out of the car and walk 0:10:38.542 --> 0:10:39.142 into the house. 0:10:44.022 --> 0:10:47.862 You're listening to true crime conversations. Up next, we delve 0:10:47.902 --> 0:10:51.062 into kier Lee's partner's history of domestic violence and what 0:10:51.182 --> 0:10:54.302 Jamie was able to find out about his past relationships. 0:10:58.742 --> 0:11:03.222 The day before when that fight broke out and allegedly 0:11:03.302 --> 0:11:06.902 there were people over and Jason's sister, as you say 0:11:07.102 --> 0:11:10.262 in her own words, had a physical fight with Kira. 0:11:11.022 --> 0:11:14.622 Does it look like there was alcohol or drugs involved 0:11:14.662 --> 0:11:15.342 at that time. 0:11:15.862 --> 0:11:19.822 Yeah. So. Jesse, who is Tamika's niece I also spoke to, 0:11:20.822 --> 0:11:23.502 said that Kira was drunk. That's what she said. She 0:11:23.542 --> 0:11:26.142 was drunk. She didn't drink very often, so she was 0:11:26.222 --> 0:11:30.342 quite intoxicated. Tamika had said in episode three or four 0:11:30.782 --> 0:11:32.982 that they had all decided to take a sugar pill, 0:11:34.022 --> 0:11:37.342 which people who have known Jason said, that's absolute crap 0:11:37.502 --> 0:11:39.542 because he knows what a drug is and he's not 0:11:39.582 --> 0:11:42.502 going to fall for a sugar pill. So I'm kind 0:11:42.502 --> 0:11:45.222 of thinking that maybe they gave Kira a sugar pill 0:11:45.862 --> 0:11:48.382 because there was no drugs found in her system. As 0:11:48.422 --> 0:11:51.462 far as I'm aware from the toxicology report, but maybe 0:11:51.542 --> 0:11:53.742 they had the real drug and maybe Kira had a 0:11:53.782 --> 0:11:56.862 sugar pill, but there was definitely alcohol involved. And I 0:11:56.862 --> 0:11:59.342 don't know about the others. They certainly have a rap 0:11:59.382 --> 0:12:00.262 sheet for drug use. 0:12:00.342 --> 0:12:05.902 So and with Kira, was it usual for her to 0:12:06.022 --> 0:12:11.662 be fighting with Jason's sister. Was there of some underlying 0:12:12.542 --> 0:12:16.102 tensions there with her or why did this seem to 0:12:16.222 --> 0:12:18.582 kind of explode on that particular night. 0:12:19.542 --> 0:12:23.902 Well, Tamika told me Kira wasn't a fighter, and Jason 0:12:23.942 --> 0:12:26.062 was actually trying to hold Tamika back because you know, 0:12:26.102 --> 0:12:28.782 he was saying she's not a fighter. But Kia was 0:12:28.902 --> 0:12:32.582 feisty and she didn't take anyone's shit. That's what Allison 0:12:32.582 --> 0:12:35.342 told me. She did not take anyone's crap, and you 0:12:35.382 --> 0:12:38.182 know that would sometimes get her into trouble with certain people. 0:12:38.862 --> 0:12:41.702 She did have that feistiness about her, and that's sticking 0:12:41.782 --> 0:12:45.022 up for herself. And as far as any issues between 0:12:45.062 --> 0:12:48.062 the two, they'd only met a few times, but Tamika 0:12:48.102 --> 0:12:50.582 tells me when I first met her on the record 0:12:50.582 --> 0:12:53.422 that she didn't like Kira, straight up didn't like her. 0:12:53.542 --> 0:12:56.182 I don't know why that is. So there definitely was 0:12:56.262 --> 0:12:59.982 some underlying tension there. I believe that's why we called 0:12:59.982 --> 0:13:03.302 the episode My Brother's Keeper because she now she says 0:13:03.342 --> 0:13:06.142 she doesn't, but at that point she was her brother's keeper. 0:13:06.182 --> 0:13:08.582 She would always bail him out. They had a system. 0:13:09.342 --> 0:13:11.182 She would pick him up when he was in trouble 0:13:11.182 --> 0:13:13.342 with the police. You know, he would run out to 0:13:13.382 --> 0:13:15.862 the bush somewhere and Kui and she would know where 0:13:15.902 --> 0:13:17.982 to find him. Like they had a system. Having that 0:13:18.022 --> 0:13:41.702 often had a system. 0:13:41.902 --> 0:13:46.302 And you say that Jason had quite the record, what 0:13:46.622 --> 0:13:49.622 did that record look like? And do we know much 0:13:49.662 --> 0:13:52.742 about the relationship he'd had with Kira up until that point. 0:13:53.422 --> 0:13:56.702 He had a record of domestic violence and there's also 0:13:56.782 --> 0:14:00.102 drugs there and maybe a few other things, not one 0:14:00.182 --> 0:14:03.942 hundred percent certain of them, but definitely domestic violence charges. 0:14:04.062 --> 0:14:07.262 I know he'd been in prison for that. There was 0:14:07.382 --> 0:14:10.062 one time where he did go to jail for an 0:14:10.062 --> 0:14:13.902 offense of domestic violence for contravening in domestic violence protection order, 0:14:14.342 --> 0:14:16.702 and Kira was the aggrieved in that order. So I 0:14:16.782 --> 0:14:20.342 know that happened definitely once, and I'm not sure exactly 0:14:20.462 --> 0:14:23.382 the circumstances around that. I can't access all the information. 0:14:24.142 --> 0:14:26.902 He definitely did have other history with other things. He's 0:14:27.182 --> 0:14:30.302 incarcerated at the moment for a number of other offenses 0:14:30.462 --> 0:14:34.262 relating to another female that he met after Kira. In 0:14:34.302 --> 0:14:39.622 a relation to Kira's relationship with him, it's quite murky 0:14:39.782 --> 0:14:43.182 and it's a turbulent relationship. So what happened was Jason 0:14:43.222 --> 0:14:45.822 was in a de factor relationship with another lady who 0:14:45.822 --> 0:14:50.462 I also interviewed, Katie. They had a domestic violence relationship. 0:14:50.542 --> 0:14:53.342 It was listening to Katie's story was horrendous what she 0:14:53.422 --> 0:14:56.422 went through with Jason, and they lived nearby. They lived 0:14:56.462 --> 0:15:00.222 in Warville, the same community as Kira, and through that 0:15:00.622 --> 0:15:03.862 community and through Jason and Kira working together at the 0:15:03.902 --> 0:15:08.102 Turkey Farm, they met and Jason was quite flirtatious and 0:15:08.102 --> 0:15:11.102 that sort of thing, and they started, you know, hanging out, 0:15:11.142 --> 0:15:16.342 and basically Jason just took Kira and basically stopped the 0:15:16.382 --> 0:15:20.182 relationship with Kira's husband. She was married at the time, 0:15:20.862 --> 0:15:24.262 and Katie was left to sit at home at the 0:15:24.302 --> 0:15:27.102 shed with her kids while Jason was off with Kira, 0:15:27.782 --> 0:15:29.622 but he kept both of them. He would go to 0:15:29.662 --> 0:15:31.782 Kira's house for the day or a few nights and 0:15:31.782 --> 0:15:34.862 then come back and make sure that Katie was still 0:15:34.902 --> 0:15:37.462 there and still doing what he told her to and 0:15:37.462 --> 0:15:39.942 all that sort of stuff, and trapping her bed basically, 0:15:40.542 --> 0:15:44.182 and then she calls it her escape. She actually made 0:15:44.182 --> 0:15:47.902 an escape where she had finally swallowed her pride and 0:15:48.062 --> 0:15:51.582 contacted an old friend to come up, and they made 0:15:51.582 --> 0:15:53.702 a time and they drove her out of there. They 0:15:53.782 --> 0:15:57.142 packed their stuff up and left. Then it was just 0:15:57.302 --> 0:16:02.622 Kira and Jason. And Katie remembers calling Kira and saying, 0:16:02.662 --> 0:16:05.422 has he hit you yet? And she would say yes, 0:16:05.502 --> 0:16:07.222 and she's like, man, you've got to get out of there. 0:16:07.702 --> 0:16:09.662 You've got to get out of there. But sometimes you 0:16:09.702 --> 0:16:11.822 just can't telp when they're in this situation. 0:16:12.702 --> 0:16:15.502 And Kia, you say that she was in a relationship 0:16:15.542 --> 0:16:19.382 before she had four kids. Were they to that previous partner. 0:16:20.182 --> 0:16:23.822 Yeah, all four kids were with her husband. She was 0:16:23.822 --> 0:16:26.302 married young. It was like eighteen or nineteen off the 0:16:26.342 --> 0:16:28.022 top of my head. So she married young and she 0:16:28.062 --> 0:16:31.262 had four kids pretty quickly. Child one to four was 0:16:31.382 --> 0:16:34.382 very quick. I don't know if this is true or not, 0:16:34.502 --> 0:16:37.222 but Katie, her friend would say that she was staying 0:16:37.262 --> 0:16:39.822 to maybe look for more attention. Maybe her husband wasn't 0:16:39.822 --> 0:16:43.702 giving her what she wanted. So she started to have 0:16:43.742 --> 0:16:46.262 a bit of a fleeing with the seventeen eighteen year 0:16:46.302 --> 0:16:49.422 old neighbor who I also interview, And so they had 0:16:49.462 --> 0:16:54.382 a fling, and maybe Jason could see her vulnerability, you know, 0:16:54.462 --> 0:16:57.102 with that, and when he met her, he was giving 0:16:57.102 --> 0:17:00.222 her that attention that she might have needed after talking 0:17:00.222 --> 0:17:02.622 to all these people. I believe that that's true. Maybe she 0:17:02.702 --> 0:17:05.142 did want some more attention and he gave her that, 0:17:05.182 --> 0:17:07.182 But then when she was in it, she realized she 0:17:07.262 --> 0:17:10.782 was in trouble and was trying to make those to 0:17:10.822 --> 0:17:14.622 get away. I think because the neighbor's damo on that 0:17:14.742 --> 0:17:18.622 fateful night, he heard her say I don't love you anymore, 0:17:18.982 --> 0:17:21.742 you know, or words to that effect. So I think 0:17:21.902 --> 0:17:24.022 she had made that decision to go with him and 0:17:24.062 --> 0:17:27.942 then regretted it and paid the ultimate price for it. 0:17:27.982 --> 0:17:31.982 Really and didn't the subject of this seventeen year old 0:17:32.062 --> 0:17:35.622 neighbor come up on her last night? There was some 0:17:35.822 --> 0:17:39.142 allusion to that from ta Meeka. I believe when they 0:17:39.182 --> 0:17:42.302 were fighting. Is it possible that she was still in 0:17:42.342 --> 0:17:44.822 that relationship up until the end, or had it ended? 0:17:45.942 --> 0:17:49.502 Well? When I speak to Sean, the seventeen year old. 0:17:49.822 --> 0:17:52.822 He flat out denies that. He says he wasn't there. 0:17:52.942 --> 0:17:56.142 It stopped when Jason had got out of jail, because 0:17:56.222 --> 0:17:58.302 Kira told him, look, I've got a new partner. He's 0:17:58.302 --> 0:18:01.182 in jail. He's pretty serious, so I think this should stop. 0:18:01.862 --> 0:18:04.502 So he assures me that it stopped. And I originally 0:18:04.542 --> 0:18:09.302 did think that he may have been there after Jason 0:18:09.342 --> 0:18:11.902 and everyone had left the house. Maybe Kira had got 0:18:11.982 --> 0:18:15.422 him over there to comfort her, and Jason had returned 0:18:15.422 --> 0:18:17.382 to the house and found them together and then just 0:18:17.462 --> 0:18:19.582 lost it. That's sort of what I was thinking had happened. 0:18:19.622 --> 0:18:22.982 But his family can vouched for him that he was 0:18:23.022 --> 0:18:27.182 definitely not there. I think on that night, though, it 0:18:27.262 --> 0:18:29.542 sounds like Kira maybe was trying to get back at 0:18:29.542 --> 0:18:32.982 someone or do something, because she did bring up the 0:18:33.022 --> 0:18:35.502 seventeen year old nighbors. She did say that. I think 0:18:35.582 --> 0:18:37.982 her words were, I was hooking up with a seventeen 0:18:38.062 --> 0:18:40.422 year old or performing oral sex or something like that. 0:18:40.542 --> 0:18:43.502 And Tamika made the comment on the record as well 0:18:43.582 --> 0:18:45.542 that she went down to Jason, who was having a 0:18:45.582 --> 0:18:47.942 bong in the shed, you better put your dog on 0:18:47.982 --> 0:18:50.222 a leash. That's what her words were. 0:18:50.022 --> 0:18:55.342 So did Tamika say whether he appeared particularly angry about that? 0:18:55.542 --> 0:18:58.022 Is there a chance that that could have set him off? 0:18:59.182 --> 0:19:02.662 I do think that there was something said between the 0:19:02.742 --> 0:19:05.262 three of them that I think feuded this, and I 0:19:05.302 --> 0:19:08.862 don't know what that was, but it certainly must have 0:19:08.942 --> 0:19:11.742 been along those lines. Maybe you could assume that Kira 0:19:11.982 --> 0:19:15.382 was trying to leave the relationship, and maybe she was 0:19:15.462 --> 0:19:18.742 trying to get back at him or say something to 0:19:18.942 --> 0:19:22.102 anger him. I don't know why, but maybe that's the case. 0:19:22.502 --> 0:19:25.662 Maybe that has angered him. Maybe that has and that 0:19:25.782 --> 0:19:27.742 could have set him off for sure. But if you 0:19:27.822 --> 0:19:32.662 listen to Nakota the Brother and Katie, he would just 0:19:32.822 --> 0:19:34.862 lose it and just go off. You know, it doesn't 0:19:34.902 --> 0:19:37.262 have to be anything massive. But if he did lose it, 0:19:37.302 --> 0:19:40.142 he really lost it. And it's just one of those 0:19:40.182 --> 0:19:42.822 cases that it does appear the writing is on the wall, 0:19:42.902 --> 0:19:46.022 like it does appear that he's done something to her 0:19:46.022 --> 0:19:48.902 and she's met with foul play those kind of injuries. 0:19:49.182 --> 0:19:51.862 How do you explain that? It's hard to explain. Why 0:19:51.862 --> 0:19:53.982 do you not call the ambulance as soon as you 0:19:54.062 --> 0:19:57.142 notice something? She defecated and urinated? Why she was in 0:19:57.182 --> 0:20:00.342 the semi unconscious state, picked her up and showered her 0:20:00.422 --> 0:20:03.102 to clean her up, and then he called Nakota about 0:20:03.102 --> 0:20:05.502 eight am the next day to say what do I do? 0:20:06.222 --> 0:20:08.222 And he said, mate, call on f an evilence. I'm 0:20:08.262 --> 0:20:11.742 not a doctor, and he didn't. He waited till about 0:20:11.742 --> 0:20:14.662 two pm. So you put those dots together and you 0:20:14.702 --> 0:20:17.302 sort of think, well, she's obviously met with foul play, 0:20:17.422 --> 0:20:20.702 but it mustn't be that clear because he hasn't been 0:20:20.822 --> 0:20:21.622 charged with anything. 0:20:21.702 --> 0:20:26.422 So was he formally interviewed by the police. 0:20:26.902 --> 0:20:30.182 Yeah, I believe so, and so was Tamika. But that's 0:20:30.222 --> 0:20:33.582 the thing, what Tamika and everyone has told me on 0:20:33.622 --> 0:20:36.502 the podcast might be different to what they told police. 0:20:36.822 --> 0:20:39.342 They could lie through their teeth to the police, and 0:20:39.742 --> 0:20:42.942 there was no evidence, you know, there's no CCTV or 0:20:43.062 --> 0:20:46.462 fingerprints or anything like that. Not the fingerprints would do anything, 0:20:46.462 --> 0:20:49.222 because it only proves that they lived together. But there 0:20:49.262 --> 0:20:53.062 was no direct evidence apart from her injuries, that would 0:20:53.222 --> 0:20:55.822 tie him to it. So I guess if he lied 0:20:55.862 --> 0:20:58.822 about it, or Tamika lied about it, then it's kind 0:20:58.822 --> 0:21:10.862 of hard for them to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. 0:21:13.182 --> 0:21:16.302 If you've got on the record that Tamika is saying 0:21:16.342 --> 0:21:20.622 that she had a physical fight with Kira where she 0:21:20.702 --> 0:21:23.702 did hit her head, and it sounds quite serious, and 0:21:23.742 --> 0:21:27.382 then the next day Kira has died of a brain injury. 0:21:27.942 --> 0:21:30.142 From someone who might not know the intricacies of the case, 0:21:30.182 --> 0:21:33.022 you would think that Tamika would be a clear suspect. 0:21:33.182 --> 0:21:34.662 Was she ever a suspect. 0:21:35.062 --> 0:21:36.982 I don't know if she was ever labeled a suspect, 0:21:37.022 --> 0:21:39.782 but she was definitely interviewed and definitely gave a statement, 0:21:40.022 --> 0:21:44.662 and she was definitely on their radar. But I'm not 0:21:44.702 --> 0:21:47.062 a medical expert, but I don't think. I mean, it 0:21:47.102 --> 0:21:50.182 certainly could have contributed to it one hundred percent, but 0:21:50.342 --> 0:21:52.862 I don't one hundred percent know that that's the truth 0:21:53.022 --> 0:21:58.262 that would happen, because when I spoke to Jesse, Tamika's niece, 0:21:58.902 --> 0:22:02.342 she doesn't remember, and she was there, and she claims 0:22:02.382 --> 0:22:06.622 that she was sober, and she doesn't remember Tamika hitting 0:22:06.662 --> 0:22:10.342 her with a closed fist. She remembers her pushing her 0:22:10.582 --> 0:22:13.382 a few times, but she definitely does not remember to 0:22:13.502 --> 0:22:16.942 Meeka punching her with a closed fist up to four times. 0:22:17.782 --> 0:22:20.622 So I don't know whether Tamika has been told that 0:22:20.742 --> 0:22:23.702 by Jason. That's certainly a theory that's been thrown around that. 0:22:23.902 --> 0:22:25.822 You know, Tamika has been told that while she was 0:22:25.902 --> 0:22:28.422 drunk and intoxicated, that you had a fight with Kira, 0:22:28.582 --> 0:22:30.622 you punched her. You know, you did this, you did that. 0:22:30.622 --> 0:22:32.262 That's what I mean with this case, Like, yeah, you 0:22:32.342 --> 0:22:34.142 got one person saying I did this, but then you've 0:22:34.142 --> 0:22:36.062 got a person who's sober and doesn't have much to 0:22:36.102 --> 0:22:38.462 do with the family anymore saying that no, I was 0:22:38.502 --> 0:22:41.302 there and that didn't happen. So it's really it's really 0:22:41.342 --> 0:22:42.782