1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:16,182 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges 2 00:00:16,222 --> 00:00:19,702 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters. This podcast was 3 00:00:19,742 --> 00:00:27,982 Speaker 1: recorded on It's July twenty fourteen in Gympie in southeast 4 00:00:28,022 --> 00:00:32,102 Speaker 1: Queensland and Alison Russell receives a phone call. It's about 5 00:00:32,102 --> 00:00:35,182 Speaker 1: her daughter. Her boyfriend has told the paramedics she had 6 00:00:35,222 --> 00:00:38,222 Speaker 1: an overdose of antidepressants, but after being rushed to the 7 00:00:38,262 --> 00:00:42,142 Speaker 1: local hospital, Kyrillie McLaughlin's injuries are so severe she's been 8 00:00:42,222 --> 00:00:46,502 Speaker 1: flown to the Gold Coast. She doesn't survive. The twenty 9 00:00:46,542 --> 00:00:50,502 Speaker 1: seven year old dies the following day. A total of 10 00:00:50,542 --> 00:00:53,262 Speaker 1: one hundred and five bruises are found on her body. 11 00:00:54,182 --> 00:00:56,982 Speaker 1: The mother of Faur's official cause of death is from 12 00:00:56,982 --> 00:01:02,502 Speaker 1: a catastrophic brain injury. Police have been called to Kirale's 13 00:01:02,542 --> 00:01:06,462 Speaker 1: Beenham Valley Road home before the young mum had previously 14 00:01:06,502 --> 00:01:09,942 Speaker 1: called Triple Zero herself, telling them her partner had attacked her. 15 00:01:10,622 --> 00:01:13,582 Speaker 1: When they arrived, however, she told them she'd made a mistake. 16 00:01:14,902 --> 00:01:17,582 Speaker 1: A few months later, she was dead and that's where 17 00:01:17,582 --> 00:01:22,062 Speaker 1: the story ended for about eight years, because there were 18 00:01:22,062 --> 00:01:27,982 Speaker 1: no arrests, no charges, no further investigations until two Gimpi 19 00:01:28,022 --> 00:01:31,582 Speaker 1: police officers took matters into their own hands. 20 00:01:32,022 --> 00:01:34,942 Speaker 2: You look at other suspicious deaths and there's plenty of 21 00:01:34,982 --> 00:01:37,382 Speaker 2: coverage about them, but this just seemed to go by 22 00:01:37,422 --> 00:01:42,662 Speaker 2: the wayside and she was forgotten. This case has been 23 00:01:42,702 --> 00:01:45,942 Speaker 2: haunting me because I feel for the victim. I feel 24 00:01:45,982 --> 00:01:49,782 Speaker 2: for her family. So when I left the police, I thought, 25 00:01:49,782 --> 00:01:51,422 Speaker 2: now I could do something about it because I'm not 26 00:01:51,462 --> 00:01:52,702 Speaker 2: a police officer anymore. 27 00:02:05,142 --> 00:02:08,342 Speaker 1: I'm Jimmy Bath. And this is True Crime Conversations, a 28 00:02:08,422 --> 00:02:11,822 Speaker 1: mom of Mere podcast exploring the world most notorious crimes 29 00:02:12,262 --> 00:02:15,182 Speaker 1: by speaking to the people who know the most about them. 30 00:02:15,622 --> 00:02:18,822 Speaker 1: This Domestic and Family Violence Prevention months, We're digging into 31 00:02:18,822 --> 00:02:22,782 Speaker 1: our archives to revisit crimes that should have changed everything. 32 00:02:24,262 --> 00:02:26,822 Speaker 1: In this case, two former cops found they were able 33 00:02:26,862 --> 00:02:28,702 Speaker 1: to do more good for this victim and her family 34 00:02:28,982 --> 00:02:31,982 Speaker 1: by using a podcast instead of their position within the 35 00:02:31,982 --> 00:02:35,142 Speaker 1: police force to push for action. Let that sink in 36 00:02:35,182 --> 00:02:39,062 Speaker 1: for a minute. In twenty nineteen, former Gimpe police officers 37 00:02:39,182 --> 00:02:42,662 Speaker 1: Jamie Pultz and Tom Daunt started releasing episodes of their 38 00:02:42,662 --> 00:02:46,622 Speaker 1: Beenham Valley Road investigation. It had been the case Jamie 39 00:02:46,622 --> 00:02:50,382 Speaker 1: couldn't let go of he'd been called to Kirile's house 40 00:02:50,382 --> 00:02:52,742 Speaker 1: while still on the bead, and he'd learned about her 41 00:02:52,782 --> 00:02:56,982 Speaker 1: death while sitting in Gimpi police station. When he read 42 00:02:56,982 --> 00:02:59,982 Speaker 1: her autopsy report, he noticed there was no mention of 43 00:03:00,022 --> 00:03:04,142 Speaker 1: any domestic violence relationship, but he knew her former partner 44 00:03:04,222 --> 00:03:08,702 Speaker 1: had multiple convictions for DV. He knew he'd previously gone 45 00:03:08,702 --> 00:03:11,822 Speaker 1: to prison. He knew u Kiri Lee had been alone 46 00:03:11,862 --> 00:03:14,902 Speaker 1: with him the night she was injured. He knew the 47 00:03:14,902 --> 00:03:18,302 Speaker 1: toxicology report had suggested Kira Lee hadn't overdosed like the 48 00:03:18,342 --> 00:03:22,782 Speaker 1: boyfriend had suggested. When Jamie spoke to True Crime Conversations 49 00:03:22,782 --> 00:03:26,142 Speaker 1: in April twenty twenty, no one had been charged over 50 00:03:26,222 --> 00:03:30,862 Speaker 1: Kira's death. A coronial inquest had been announced but not formalized. 51 00:03:31,822 --> 00:03:35,982 Speaker 1: In twenty twenty four, all of that has changed, But 52 00:03:36,062 --> 00:03:38,662 Speaker 1: first it's worth listening to where the case stood only 53 00:03:38,702 --> 00:03:54,022 Speaker 1: a few short years ago. He's Jesse and Jamie. 54 00:03:48,782 --> 00:03:53,582 Speaker 3: So you actually met Kierra McLaughlin. What was that encounter like? 55 00:03:54,702 --> 00:03:58,422 Speaker 2: Yeah, so, Jesse, that was about twenty thirteen. I was 56 00:03:58,462 --> 00:04:03,102 Speaker 2: a first year constable off police in Gimpi and you 57 00:04:03,102 --> 00:04:05,742 Speaker 2: know the call when I went there wasn't actually for 58 00:04:05,822 --> 00:04:09,062 Speaker 2: anything police related to do with her anyway. It's hard 59 00:04:09,062 --> 00:04:10,382 Speaker 2: to explain what I was there for, but it was 60 00:04:10,502 --> 00:04:13,422 Speaker 2: for something else. It was actually a case that was there. 61 00:04:13,702 --> 00:04:16,222 Speaker 2: It was called the Torso case, and a torso had 62 00:04:16,302 --> 00:04:19,702 Speaker 2: rocked up and had been burnt in a nearby area 63 00:04:19,942 --> 00:04:22,382 Speaker 2: and no one knew who it was, and obviously, as 64 00:04:22,422 --> 00:04:25,182 Speaker 2: a result, the police were going to every house and 65 00:04:25,262 --> 00:04:28,022 Speaker 2: just checking that everybody was living there that was still 66 00:04:28,022 --> 00:04:30,902 Speaker 2: alive and making sure they weren't the torso. And so 67 00:04:30,982 --> 00:04:32,742 Speaker 2: as a result, I went to Kira's house and I 68 00:04:32,782 --> 00:04:35,142 Speaker 2: knocked on the door and that's when I first met her. 69 00:04:35,182 --> 00:04:37,982 Speaker 2: So that interaction was just the normal interaction. It was 70 00:04:38,062 --> 00:04:41,222 Speaker 2: just an everyday job. And when I met her, she 71 00:04:41,262 --> 00:04:43,742 Speaker 2: had four little kids, she was twenty seven. You know, 72 00:04:43,822 --> 00:04:46,182 Speaker 2: she was nice. I could relate to her in that way. 73 00:04:46,902 --> 00:04:49,982 Speaker 2: But it was the second call for a dramestic violence incident, 74 00:04:49,982 --> 00:04:52,982 Speaker 2: which I can't go into too much details for legal reasons, 75 00:04:53,022 --> 00:04:56,262 Speaker 2: But that was the one that really stuck with me 76 00:04:56,422 --> 00:05:01,222 Speaker 2: because six months later or so, she was dead. And 77 00:05:02,142 --> 00:05:03,782 Speaker 2: I guess that sort of players in your mind that 78 00:05:04,222 --> 00:05:06,702 Speaker 2: did you do everything right? Or what could we have done? 79 00:05:06,862 --> 00:05:09,062 Speaker 2: Or I guess you know, your brain plays tricks in. 80 00:05:09,022 --> 00:05:14,502 Speaker 3: Your Did you meet her alongside her partner at the time. 81 00:05:15,182 --> 00:05:18,142 Speaker 2: I met her the first time I was there. That 82 00:05:18,302 --> 00:05:22,182 Speaker 2: was not to do with them. He was there and 83 00:05:22,222 --> 00:05:23,942 Speaker 2: you know, it was like eight o'clock in the morning, 84 00:05:23,982 --> 00:05:26,142 Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure, and he had a beer and he 85 00:05:26,222 --> 00:05:28,302 Speaker 2: was a bit rough and just gave me that impression. 86 00:05:28,422 --> 00:05:29,942 Speaker 2: I don't really need to say anymore. You kind of 87 00:05:29,942 --> 00:05:32,542 Speaker 2: know what I'm talking about, but that kind of a 88 00:05:32,582 --> 00:05:35,342 Speaker 2: guy been in trouble before and had a pretty big 89 00:05:35,462 --> 00:05:37,982 Speaker 2: rap sheet. I didn't really speak to him too much, though, 90 00:05:38,022 --> 00:05:40,142 Speaker 2: but my partner at the time when I was doing 91 00:05:40,182 --> 00:05:42,702 Speaker 2: the podcast with Tom, he had actually interviewed him for 92 00:05:42,742 --> 00:05:45,022 Speaker 2: a few offenses and knew him and was at the 93 00:05:45,022 --> 00:05:48,742 Speaker 2: crime scene and he was involved in that way. But 94 00:05:49,022 --> 00:05:51,622 Speaker 2: I didn't actually have to do anything with him apart 95 00:05:51,622 --> 00:05:52,582 Speaker 2: from meeting him once. 96 00:05:53,382 --> 00:05:57,902 Speaker 3: And the next time you heard Kira's name was in 97 00:05:58,102 --> 00:06:02,302 Speaker 3: quite different circumstances. What had happened to Kira when you 98 00:06:02,382 --> 00:06:03,422 Speaker 3: heard that again? 99 00:06:04,262 --> 00:06:07,102 Speaker 2: Well, I was in the police station, I remember it 100 00:06:07,182 --> 00:06:10,342 Speaker 2: very clearly, and someone popped up. I wasn't working at 101 00:06:10,662 --> 00:06:12,822 Speaker 2: that day, and I remember coming back into work and 102 00:06:13,262 --> 00:06:17,742 Speaker 2: someone had said, oh, Kira McLoughlin died, and you know, 103 00:06:18,022 --> 00:06:20,342 Speaker 2: they discussed a little bit about it, how it was Susan, 104 00:06:20,622 --> 00:06:23,502 Speaker 2: she'd been beaten, and I remember just sinking into the 105 00:06:23,582 --> 00:06:26,582 Speaker 2: chair and just my heart dropped because it was the 106 00:06:26,622 --> 00:06:29,142 Speaker 2: first time. I mean, I'd been to a few dead 107 00:06:29,142 --> 00:06:32,102 Speaker 2: bodies already in my second shift was a dead body, 108 00:06:32,102 --> 00:06:35,182 Speaker 2: and you come across them quite a lot, and domestic violences, 109 00:06:35,182 --> 00:06:37,302 Speaker 2: but this is the first time that I had attended 110 00:06:37,342 --> 00:06:41,302 Speaker 2: a job for domestic violence and this person had quite 111 00:06:41,422 --> 00:06:44,902 Speaker 2: likely died as a result of domestic violence. That hasn't 112 00:06:44,942 --> 00:06:48,662 Speaker 2: been proven, but that's where I'm thinking it went. And 113 00:06:48,742 --> 00:06:50,902 Speaker 2: it really hit me because I thought, well, this is 114 00:06:51,022 --> 00:06:53,342 Speaker 2: very serious, you know, like what we deal with, the 115 00:06:53,342 --> 00:06:56,142 Speaker 2: conversations we have with people as we're attending these jobs. 116 00:06:56,302 --> 00:06:59,582 Speaker 2: The consequences are massive, their life changing, their life threatening. 117 00:06:59,582 --> 00:07:01,022 Speaker 2: It's hard to put into words really. 118 00:07:01,742 --> 00:07:04,182 Speaker 3: And what was the cause of Kira's death. 119 00:07:05,022 --> 00:07:08,622 Speaker 2: Catastrophic head injuries was the cause of her death. Basically, 120 00:07:09,502 --> 00:07:12,982 Speaker 2: she was beaten to death. The pathologist doing the autopsy 121 00:07:13,422 --> 00:07:16,662 Speaker 2: noted one hundred and five bruises on Kira's body, so 122 00:07:16,782 --> 00:07:19,622 Speaker 2: that's a fair bit of damage. And the ultimate cause 123 00:07:19,662 --> 00:07:22,942 Speaker 2: of death was head injuries and Alice and the mother 124 00:07:23,022 --> 00:07:26,022 Speaker 2: had to make the heart wrenching decision to shut the 125 00:07:26,062 --> 00:07:28,622 Speaker 2: life support off because there was actually her words were 126 00:07:28,662 --> 00:07:31,822 Speaker 2: there was no brain activity left. The incident happened the 127 00:07:31,902 --> 00:07:37,542 Speaker 2: day before. They were alone that night. Somewhere during that night, 128 00:07:37,662 --> 00:07:41,342 Speaker 2: something's happened and she's been unconscious, and he waited like 129 00:07:41,422 --> 00:07:44,782 Speaker 2: twelve hours to call ambulance and by the time they 130 00:07:44,822 --> 00:07:47,582 Speaker 2: got there, she was in a pretty bad way. They 131 00:07:47,622 --> 00:07:50,542 Speaker 2: took her to Gimpi, but they couldn't deal with what 132 00:07:50,622 --> 00:07:53,062 Speaker 2: she had, so they flew her via helicopter to the 133 00:07:53,062 --> 00:07:56,462 Speaker 2: Gold Coast University Hospital, where she died the next day. 134 00:07:57,182 --> 00:08:00,862 Speaker 3: So going back to the day before, Kira had people 135 00:08:00,902 --> 00:08:02,382 Speaker 3: over to the house, didn't. 136 00:08:02,062 --> 00:08:06,262 Speaker 2: She Yeah, this was a matter of contention during the podcast. 137 00:08:06,342 --> 00:08:08,142 Speaker 2: So to go back a little bit, when I was 138 00:08:08,142 --> 00:08:10,302 Speaker 2: in the police, I remember hearing that there was some 139 00:08:10,542 --> 00:08:13,382 Speaker 2: story of the sister of the guy I'm calling Jason, 140 00:08:13,462 --> 00:08:16,102 Speaker 2: Kira's partner, which is not his real name. There was 141 00:08:16,102 --> 00:08:19,422 Speaker 2: a conversation about her having a fight with Kira at 142 00:08:19,422 --> 00:08:22,702 Speaker 2: that house Bean and Balley Road, And we didn't really 143 00:08:22,782 --> 00:08:24,822 Speaker 2: know going into this podcast, we had no idea that 144 00:08:24,902 --> 00:08:27,182 Speaker 2: was all we really knew because I couldn't go back 145 00:08:27,222 --> 00:08:29,742 Speaker 2: and look on the police starticisms anymore, not being a cop. 146 00:08:29,822 --> 00:08:31,942 Speaker 2: So what we did was we went to Allison and 147 00:08:31,982 --> 00:08:34,662 Speaker 2: we asked her what she knew had happened, and she 148 00:08:34,782 --> 00:08:37,182 Speaker 2: thought there was a gathering there of a few people. 149 00:08:37,462 --> 00:08:41,582 Speaker 2: And throughout the podcast we learned that it was Jason, 150 00:08:41,822 --> 00:08:46,542 Speaker 2: Jason's sister, Tamika who came on the podcast, Jason's nephew, 151 00:08:46,662 --> 00:08:50,102 Speaker 2: and Tamik his nephew, Tamika's two year old, and at 152 00:08:50,102 --> 00:08:52,982 Speaker 2: some point her mum was there. Jason and Tamika's mum 153 00:08:53,022 --> 00:08:55,742 Speaker 2: was there in the afternoon for a little bit, and 154 00:08:55,862 --> 00:08:58,622 Speaker 2: Kira and they were having drinks and they were playing music. 155 00:08:59,342 --> 00:09:01,182 Speaker 2: But the part where this gets murky is that the 156 00:09:01,222 --> 00:09:03,982 Speaker 2: neighbors don't agree with that they didn't see people, they 157 00:09:03,982 --> 00:09:07,822 Speaker 2: didn't hear music. They can hear and see things because 158 00:09:07,902 --> 00:09:10,942 Speaker 2: noise does travel in those sort of rural plays. But 159 00:09:11,942 --> 00:09:15,422 Speaker 2: that's what the narrative we were given. And at some point, though, 160 00:09:15,782 --> 00:09:20,782 Speaker 2: around about nine o'clock, they all left, including Jason, because Tamika, 161 00:09:20,822 --> 00:09:23,862 Speaker 2: by her own admissions, had a fight with Kira and 162 00:09:23,942 --> 00:09:27,982 Speaker 2: it was about something silly. They were drinking and it 163 00:09:28,022 --> 00:09:30,102 Speaker 2: got out of hand and they were throwing tie chains 164 00:09:30,102 --> 00:09:32,822 Speaker 2: and throwing cans of paint and it was pretty nasty, 165 00:09:33,222 --> 00:09:35,622 Speaker 2: and Tamika says that she hit her about four times 166 00:09:35,662 --> 00:09:38,662 Speaker 2: in total, at one point knocking her out. So Tamika 167 00:09:38,702 --> 00:09:40,622 Speaker 2: does think, and she said on the record that she 168 00:09:40,702 --> 00:09:43,142 Speaker 2: thinks that she might have had something to do with 169 00:09:43,182 --> 00:09:46,222 Speaker 2: her death, even though it's probably not likely, but that's 170 00:09:46,262 --> 00:09:49,902 Speaker 2: what she told us. Happened, and they all left the house. 171 00:09:50,102 --> 00:09:53,942 Speaker 2: The mum picked them all up, leaving Kira alone. But 172 00:09:54,022 --> 00:09:57,782 Speaker 2: at some point when everyone had left the house, Jason said, 173 00:09:57,822 --> 00:09:59,862 Speaker 2: I need to go back. Kira is called to say 174 00:09:59,862 --> 00:10:02,702 Speaker 2: that she's going to take all her pills kill herself basically. 175 00:10:02,782 --> 00:10:07,302 Speaker 2: So the brother, Nakota, drove Jason back to the house 176 00:10:07,742 --> 00:10:10,302 Speaker 2: and I spoke to Nakoda and he said that happened. 177 00:10:10,542 --> 00:10:12,742 Speaker 2: He saw him walk up. He saw Kira there though, 178 00:10:12,782 --> 00:10:16,182 Speaker 2: so she was alive at that point. After that, the 179 00:10:16,302 --> 00:10:18,982 Speaker 2: other neighbor heard an argument and heard someone on the 180 00:10:18,982 --> 00:10:23,142 Speaker 2: phone Jason saying, I fed up. I don't know what 181 00:10:23,222 --> 00:10:26,462 Speaker 2: to do, and then they heard a car arrive. It 182 00:10:26,582 --> 00:10:29,862 Speaker 2: was silent after that. The next morning, both neighbors on 183 00:10:29,902 --> 00:10:33,582 Speaker 2: both sides saw a white car at around about eight 184 00:10:33,582 --> 00:10:36,902 Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning at Kira's house with the man 185 00:10:36,902 --> 00:10:38,542 Speaker 2: and a woman getting out of the car and walk 186 00:10:38,542 --> 00:10:39,142 Speaker 2: into the house. 187 00:10:44,022 --> 00:10:47,862 Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime conversations. Up next, we delve 188 00:10:47,902 --> 00:10:51,062 Speaker 1: into kier Lee's partner's history of domestic violence and what 189 00:10:51,182 --> 00:10:54,302 Speaker 1: Jamie was able to find out about his past relationships. 190 00:10:58,742 --> 00:11:03,222 Speaker 3: The day before when that fight broke out and allegedly 191 00:11:03,302 --> 00:11:06,902 Speaker 3: there were people over and Jason's sister, as you say 192 00:11:07,102 --> 00:11:10,262 Speaker 3: in her own words, had a physical fight with Kira. 193 00:11:11,022 --> 00:11:14,622 Speaker 3: Does it look like there was alcohol or drugs involved 194 00:11:14,662 --> 00:11:15,342 Speaker 3: at that time. 195 00:11:15,862 --> 00:11:19,822 Speaker 2: Yeah. So. Jesse, who is Tamika's niece I also spoke to, 196 00:11:20,822 --> 00:11:23,502 Speaker 2: said that Kira was drunk. That's what she said. She 197 00:11:23,542 --> 00:11:26,142 Speaker 2: was drunk. She didn't drink very often, so she was 198 00:11:26,222 --> 00:11:30,342 Speaker 2: quite intoxicated. Tamika had said in episode three or four 199 00:11:30,782 --> 00:11:32,982 Speaker 2: that they had all decided to take a sugar pill, 200 00:11:34,022 --> 00:11:37,342 Speaker 2: which people who have known Jason said, that's absolute crap 201 00:11:37,502 --> 00:11:39,542 Speaker 2: because he knows what a drug is and he's not 202 00:11:39,582 --> 00:11:42,502 Speaker 2: going to fall for a sugar pill. So I'm kind 203 00:11:42,502 --> 00:11:45,222 Speaker 2: of thinking that maybe they gave Kira a sugar pill 204 00:11:45,862 --> 00:11:48,382 Speaker 2: because there was no drugs found in her system. As 205 00:11:48,422 --> 00:11:51,462 Speaker 2: far as I'm aware from the toxicology report, but maybe 206 00:11:51,542 --> 00:11:53,742 Speaker 2: they had the real drug and maybe Kira had a 207 00:11:53,782 --> 00:11:56,862 Speaker 2: sugar pill, but there was definitely alcohol involved. And I 208 00:11:56,862 --> 00:11:59,342 Speaker 2: don't know about the others. They certainly have a rap 209 00:11:59,382 --> 00:12:00,262 Speaker 2: sheet for drug use. 210 00:12:00,342 --> 00:12:05,902 Speaker 3: So and with Kira, was it usual for her to 211 00:12:06,022 --> 00:12:11,662 Speaker 3: be fighting with Jason's sister. Was there of some underlying 212 00:12:12,542 --> 00:12:16,102 Speaker 3: tensions there with her or why did this seem to 213 00:12:16,222 --> 00:12:18,582 Speaker 3: kind of explode on that particular night. 214 00:12:19,542 --> 00:12:23,902 Speaker 2: Well, Tamika told me Kira wasn't a fighter, and Jason 215 00:12:23,942 --> 00:12:26,062 Speaker 2: was actually trying to hold Tamika back because you know, 216 00:12:26,102 --> 00:12:28,782 Speaker 2: he was saying she's not a fighter. But Kia was 217 00:12:28,902 --> 00:12:32,582 Speaker 2: feisty and she didn't take anyone's shit. That's what Allison 218 00:12:32,582 --> 00:12:35,342 Speaker 2: told me. She did not take anyone's crap, and you 219 00:12:35,382 --> 00:12:38,182 Speaker 2: know that would sometimes get her into trouble with certain people. 220 00:12:38,862 --> 00:12:41,702 Speaker 2: She did have that feistiness about her, and that's sticking 221 00:12:41,782 --> 00:12:45,022 Speaker 2: up for herself. And as far as any issues between 222 00:12:45,062 --> 00:12:48,062 Speaker 2: the two, they'd only met a few times, but Tamika 223 00:12:48,102 --> 00:12:50,582 Speaker 2: tells me when I first met her on the record 224 00:12:50,582 --> 00:12:53,422 Speaker 2: that she didn't like Kira, straight up didn't like her. 225 00:12:53,542 --> 00:12:56,182 Speaker 2: I don't know why that is. So there definitely was 226 00:12:56,262 --> 00:12:59,982 Speaker 2: some underlying tension there. I believe that's why we called 227 00:12:59,982 --> 00:13:03,302 Speaker 2: the episode My Brother's Keeper because she now she says 228 00:13:03,342 --> 00:13:06,142 Speaker 2: she doesn't, but at that point she was her brother's keeper. 229 00:13:06,182 --> 00:13:08,582 Speaker 2: She would always bail him out. They had a system. 230 00:13:09,342 --> 00:13:11,182 Speaker 2: She would pick him up when he was in trouble 231 00:13:11,182 --> 00:13:13,342 Speaker 2: with the police. You know, he would run out to 232 00:13:13,382 --> 00:13:15,862 Speaker 2: the bush somewhere and Kui and she would know where 233 00:13:15,902 --> 00:13:17,982 Speaker 2: to find him. Like they had a system. Having that 234 00:13:18,022 --> 00:13:41,702 Speaker 2: often had a system. 235 00:13:41,902 --> 00:13:46,302 Speaker 3: And you say that Jason had quite the record, what 236 00:13:46,622 --> 00:13:49,622 Speaker 3: did that record look like? And do we know much 237 00:13:49,662 --> 00:13:52,742 Speaker 3: about the relationship he'd had with Kira up until that point. 238 00:13:53,422 --> 00:13:56,702 Speaker 2: He had a record of domestic violence and there's also 239 00:13:56,782 --> 00:14:00,102 Speaker 2: drugs there and maybe a few other things, not one 240 00:14:00,182 --> 00:14:03,942 Speaker 2: hundred percent certain of them, but definitely domestic violence charges. 241 00:14:04,062 --> 00:14:07,262 Speaker 2: I know he'd been in prison for that. There was 242 00:14:07,382 --> 00:14:10,062 Speaker 2: one time where he did go to jail for an 243 00:14:10,062 --> 00:14:13,902 Speaker 2: offense of domestic violence for contravening in domestic violence protection order, 244 00:14:14,342 --> 00:14:16,702 Speaker 2: and Kira was the aggrieved in that order. So I 245 00:14:16,782 --> 00:14:20,342 Speaker 2: know that happened definitely once, and I'm not sure exactly 246 00:14:20,462 --> 00:14:23,382 Speaker 2: the circumstances around that. I can't access all the information. 247 00:14:24,142 --> 00:14:26,902 Speaker 2: He definitely did have other history with other things. He's 248 00:14:27,182 --> 00:14:30,302 Speaker 2: incarcerated at the moment for a number of other offenses 249 00:14:30,462 --> 00:14:34,262 Speaker 2: relating to another female that he met after Kira. In 250 00:14:34,302 --> 00:14:39,622 Speaker 2: a relation to Kira's relationship with him, it's quite murky 251 00:14:39,782 --> 00:14:43,182 Speaker 2: and it's a turbulent relationship. So what happened was Jason 252 00:14:43,222 --> 00:14:45,822 Speaker 2: was in a de factor relationship with another lady who 253 00:14:45,822 --> 00:14:50,462 Speaker 2: I also interviewed, Katie. They had a domestic violence relationship. 254 00:14:50,542 --> 00:14:53,342 Speaker 2: It was listening to Katie's story was horrendous what she 255 00:14:53,422 --> 00:14:56,422 Speaker 2: went through with Jason, and they lived nearby. They lived 256 00:14:56,462 --> 00:15:00,222 Speaker 2: in Warville, the same community as Kira, and through that 257 00:15:00,622 --> 00:15:03,862 Speaker 2: community and through Jason and Kira working together at the 258 00:15:03,902 --> 00:15:08,102 Speaker 2: Turkey Farm, they met and Jason was quite flirtatious and 259 00:15:08,102 --> 00:15:11,102 Speaker 2: that sort of thing, and they started, you know, hanging out, 260 00:15:11,142 --> 00:15:16,342 Speaker 2: and basically Jason just took Kira and basically stopped the 261 00:15:16,382 --> 00:15:20,182 Speaker 2: relationship with Kira's husband. She was married at the time, 262 00:15:20,862 --> 00:15:24,262 Speaker 2: and Katie was left to sit at home at the 263 00:15:24,302 --> 00:15:27,102 Speaker 2: shed with her kids while Jason was off with Kira, 264 00:15:27,782 --> 00:15:29,622 Speaker 2: but he kept both of them. He would go to 265 00:15:29,662 --> 00:15:31,782 Speaker 2: Kira's house for the day or a few nights and 266 00:15:31,782 --> 00:15:34,862 Speaker 2: then come back and make sure that Katie was still 267 00:15:34,902 --> 00:15:37,462 Speaker 2: there and still doing what he told her to and 268 00:15:37,462 --> 00:15:39,942 Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff, and trapping her bed basically, 269 00:15:40,542 --> 00:15:44,182 Speaker 2: and then she calls it her escape. She actually made 270 00:15:44,182 --> 00:15:47,902 Speaker 2: an escape where she had finally swallowed her pride and 271 00:15:48,062 --> 00:15:51,582 Speaker 2: contacted an old friend to come up, and they made 272 00:15:51,582 --> 00:15:53,702 Speaker 2: a time and they drove her out of there. They 273 00:15:53,782 --> 00:15:57,142 Speaker 2: packed their stuff up and left. Then it was just 274 00:15:57,302 --> 00:16:02,622 Speaker 2: Kira and Jason. And Katie remembers calling Kira and saying, 275 00:16:02,662 --> 00:16:05,422 Speaker 2: has he hit you yet? And she would say yes, 276 00:16:05,502 --> 00:16:07,222 Speaker 2: and she's like, man, you've got to get out of there. 277 00:16:07,702 --> 00:16:09,662 Speaker 2: You've got to get out of there. But sometimes you 278 00:16:09,702 --> 00:16:11,822 Speaker 2: just can't telp when they're in this situation. 279 00:16:12,702 --> 00:16:15,502 Speaker 3: And Kia, you say that she was in a relationship 280 00:16:15,542 --> 00:16:19,382 Speaker 3: before she had four kids. Were they to that previous partner. 281 00:16:20,182 --> 00:16:23,822 Speaker 2: Yeah, all four kids were with her husband. She was 282 00:16:23,822 --> 00:16:26,302 Speaker 2: married young. It was like eighteen or nineteen off the 283 00:16:26,342 --> 00:16:28,022 Speaker 2: top of my head. So she married young and she 284 00:16:28,062 --> 00:16:31,262 Speaker 2: had four kids pretty quickly. Child one to four was 285 00:16:31,382 --> 00:16:34,382 Speaker 2: very quick. I don't know if this is true or not, 286 00:16:34,502 --> 00:16:37,222 Speaker 2: but Katie, her friend would say that she was staying 287 00:16:37,262 --> 00:16:39,822 Speaker 2: to maybe look for more attention. Maybe her husband wasn't 288 00:16:39,822 --> 00:16:43,702 Speaker 2: giving her what she wanted. So she started to have 289 00:16:43,742 --> 00:16:46,262 Speaker 2: a bit of a fleeing with the seventeen eighteen year 290 00:16:46,302 --> 00:16:49,422 Speaker 2: old neighbor who I also interview, And so they had 291 00:16:49,462 --> 00:16:54,382 Speaker 2: a fling, and maybe Jason could see her vulnerability, you know, 292 00:16:54,462 --> 00:16:57,102 Speaker 2: with that, and when he met her, he was giving 293 00:16:57,102 --> 00:17:00,222 Speaker 2: her that attention that she might have needed after talking 294 00:17:00,222 --> 00:17:02,622 Speaker 2: to all these people. I believe that that's true. Maybe she 295 00:17:02,702 --> 00:17:05,142 Speaker 2: did want some more attention and he gave her that, 296 00:17:05,182 --> 00:17:07,182 Speaker 2: But then when she was in it, she realized she 297 00:17:07,262 --> 00:17:10,782 Speaker 2: was in trouble and was trying to make those to 298 00:17:10,822 --> 00:17:14,622 Speaker 2: get away. I think because the neighbor's damo on that 299 00:17:14,742 --> 00:17:18,622 Speaker 2: fateful night, he heard her say I don't love you anymore, 300 00:17:18,982 --> 00:17:21,742 Speaker 2: you know, or words to that effect. So I think 301 00:17:21,902 --> 00:17:24,022 Speaker 2: she had made that decision to go with him and 302 00:17:24,062 --> 00:17:27,942 Speaker 2: then regretted it and paid the ultimate price for it. 303 00:17:27,982 --> 00:17:31,982 Speaker 3: Really and didn't the subject of this seventeen year old 304 00:17:32,062 --> 00:17:35,622 Speaker 3: neighbor come up on her last night? There was some 305 00:17:35,822 --> 00:17:39,142 Speaker 3: allusion to that from ta Meeka. I believe when they 306 00:17:39,182 --> 00:17:42,302 Speaker 3: were fighting. Is it possible that she was still in 307 00:17:42,342 --> 00:17:44,822 Speaker 3: that relationship up until the end, or had it ended? 308 00:17:45,942 --> 00:17:49,502 Speaker 2: Well? When I speak to Sean, the seventeen year old. 309 00:17:49,822 --> 00:17:52,822 Speaker 2: He flat out denies that. He says he wasn't there. 310 00:17:52,942 --> 00:17:56,142 Speaker 2: It stopped when Jason had got out of jail, because 311 00:17:56,222 --> 00:17:58,302 Speaker 2: Kira told him, look, I've got a new partner. He's 312 00:17:58,302 --> 00:18:01,182 Speaker 2: in jail. He's pretty serious, so I think this should stop. 313 00:18:01,862 --> 00:18:04,502 Speaker 2: So he assures me that it stopped. And I originally 314 00:18:04,542 --> 00:18:09,302 Speaker 2: did think that he may have been there after Jason 315 00:18:09,342 --> 00:18:11,902 Speaker 2: and everyone had left the house. Maybe Kira had got 316 00:18:11,982 --> 00:18:15,422 Speaker 2: him over there to comfort her, and Jason had returned 317 00:18:15,422 --> 00:18:17,382 Speaker 2: to the house and found them together and then just 318 00:18:17,462 --> 00:18:19,582 Speaker 2: lost it. That's sort of what I was thinking had happened. 319 00:18:19,622 --> 00:18:22,982 Speaker 2: But his family can vouched for him that he was 320 00:18:23,022 --> 00:18:27,182 Speaker 2: definitely not there. I think on that night, though, it 321 00:18:27,262 --> 00:18:29,542 Speaker 2: sounds like Kira maybe was trying to get back at 322 00:18:29,542 --> 00:18:32,982 Speaker 2: someone or do something, because she did bring up the 323 00:18:33,022 --> 00:18:35,502 Speaker 2: seventeen year old nighbors. She did say that. I think 324 00:18:35,582 --> 00:18:37,982 Speaker 2: her words were, I was hooking up with a seventeen 325 00:18:38,062 --> 00:18:40,422 Speaker 2: year old or performing oral sex or something like that. 326 00:18:40,542 --> 00:18:43,502 Speaker 2: And Tamika made the comment on the record as well 327 00:18:43,582 --> 00:18:45,542 Speaker 2: that she went down to Jason, who was having a 328 00:18:45,582 --> 00:18:47,942 Speaker 2: bong in the shed, you better put your dog on 329 00:18:47,982 --> 00:18:50,222 Speaker 2: a leash. That's what her words were. 330 00:18:50,022 --> 00:18:55,342 Speaker 3: So did Tamika say whether he appeared particularly angry about that? 331 00:18:55,542 --> 00:18:58,022 Speaker 3: Is there a chance that that could have set him off? 332 00:18:59,182 --> 00:19:02,662 Speaker 2: I do think that there was something said between the 333 00:19:02,742 --> 00:19:05,262 Speaker 2: three of them that I think feuded this, and I 334 00:19:05,302 --> 00:19:08,862 Speaker 2: don't know what that was, but it certainly must have 335 00:19:08,942 --> 00:19:11,742 Speaker 2: been along those lines. Maybe you could assume that Kira 336 00:19:11,982 --> 00:19:15,382 Speaker 2: was trying to leave the relationship, and maybe she was 337 00:19:15,462 --> 00:19:18,742 Speaker 2: trying to get back at him or say something to 338 00:19:18,942 --> 00:19:22,102 Speaker 2: anger him. I don't know why, but maybe that's the case. 339 00:19:22,502 --> 00:19:25,662 Speaker 2: Maybe that has angered him. Maybe that has and that 340 00:19:25,782 --> 00:19:27,742 Speaker 2: could have set him off for sure. But if you 341 00:19:27,822 --> 00:19:32,662 Speaker 2: listen to Nakota the Brother and Katie, he would just 342 00:19:32,822 --> 00:19:34,862 Speaker 2: lose it and just go off. You know, it doesn't 343 00:19:34,902 --> 00:19:37,262 Speaker 2: have to be anything massive. But if he did lose it, 344 00:19:37,302 --> 00:19:40,142 Speaker 2: he really lost it. And it's just one of those 345 00:19:40,182 --> 00:19:42,822 Speaker 2: cases that it does appear the writing is on the wall, 346 00:19:42,902 --> 00:19:46,022 Speaker 2: like it does appear that he's done something to her 347 00:19:46,022 --> 00:19:48,902 Speaker 2: and she's met with foul play those kind of injuries. 348 00:19:49,182 --> 00:19:51,862 Speaker 2: How do you explain that? It's hard to explain. Why 349 00:19:51,862 --> 00:19:53,982 Speaker 2: do you not call the ambulance as soon as you 350 00:19:54,062 --> 00:19:57,142 Speaker 2: notice something? She defecated and urinated? Why she was in 351 00:19:57,182 --> 00:20:00,342 Speaker 2: the semi unconscious state, picked her up and showered her 352 00:20:00,422 --> 00:20:03,102 Speaker 2: to clean her up, and then he called Nakota about 353 00:20:03,102 --> 00:20:05,502 Speaker 2: eight am the next day to say what do I do? 354 00:20:06,222 --> 00:20:08,222 Speaker 2: And he said, mate, call on f an evilence. I'm 355 00:20:08,262 --> 00:20:11,742 Speaker 2: not a doctor, and he didn't. He waited till about 356 00:20:11,742 --> 00:20:14,662 Speaker 2: two pm. So you put those dots together and you 357 00:20:14,702 --> 00:20:17,302 Speaker 2: sort of think, well, she's obviously met with foul play, 358 00:20:17,422 --> 00:20:20,702 Speaker 2: but it mustn't be that clear because he hasn't been 359 00:20:20,822 --> 00:20:21,622 Speaker 2: charged with anything. 360 00:20:21,702 --> 00:20:26,422 Speaker 3: So was he formally interviewed by the police. 361 00:20:26,902 --> 00:20:30,182 Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe so, and so was Tamika. But that's 362 00:20:30,222 --> 00:20:33,582 Speaker 2: the thing, what Tamika and everyone has told me on 363 00:20:33,622 --> 00:20:36,502 Speaker 2: the podcast might be different to what they told police. 364 00:20:36,822 --> 00:20:39,342 Speaker 2: They could lie through their teeth to the police, and 365 00:20:39,742 --> 00:20:42,942 Speaker 2: there was no evidence, you know, there's no CCTV or 366 00:20:43,062 --> 00:20:46,462 Speaker 2: fingerprints or anything like that. Not the fingerprints would do anything, 367 00:20:46,462 --> 00:20:49,222 Speaker 2: because it only proves that they lived together. But there 368 00:20:49,262 --> 00:20:53,062 Speaker 2: was no direct evidence apart from her injuries, that would 369 00:20:53,222 --> 00:20:55,822 Speaker 2: tie him to it. So I guess if he lied 370 00:20:55,862 --> 00:20:58,822 Speaker 2: about it, or Tamika lied about it, then it's kind 371 00:20:58,822 --> 00:21:10,862 Speaker 2: of hard for them to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. 372 00:21:13,182 --> 00:21:16,302 Speaker 3: If you've got on the record that Tamika is saying 373 00:21:16,342 --> 00:21:20,622 Speaker 3: that she had a physical fight with Kira where she 374 00:21:20,702 --> 00:21:23,702 Speaker 3: did hit her head, and it sounds quite serious, and 375 00:21:23,742 --> 00:21:27,382 Speaker 3: then the next day Kira has died of a brain injury. 376 00:21:27,942 --> 00:21:30,142 Speaker 3: From someone who might not know the intricacies of the case, 377 00:21:30,182 --> 00:21:33,022 Speaker 3: you would think that Tamika would be a clear suspect. 378 00:21:33,182 --> 00:21:34,662 Speaker 3: Was she ever a suspect. 379 00:21:35,062 --> 00:21:36,982 Speaker 2: I don't know if she was ever labeled a suspect, 380 00:21:37,022 --> 00:21:39,782 Speaker 2: but she was definitely interviewed and definitely gave a statement, 381 00:21:40,022 --> 00:21:44,662 Speaker 2: and she was definitely on their radar. But I'm not 382 00:21:44,702 --> 00:21:47,062 Speaker 2: a medical expert, but I don't think. I mean, it 383 00:21:47,102 --> 00:21:50,182 Speaker 2: certainly could have contributed to it one hundred percent, but 384 00:21:50,342 --> 00:21:52,862 Speaker 2: I don't one hundred percent know that that's the truth 385 00:21:53,022 --> 00:21:58,262 Speaker 2: that would happen, because when I spoke to Jesse, Tamika's niece, 386 00:21:58,902 --> 00:22:02,342 Speaker 2: she doesn't remember, and she was there, and she claims 387 00:22:02,382 --> 00:22:06,622 Speaker 2: that she was sober, and she doesn't remember Tamika hitting 388 00:22:06,662 --> 00:22:10,342 Speaker 2: her with a closed fist. She remembers her pushing her 389 00:22:10,582 --> 00:22:13,382 Speaker 2: a few times, but she definitely does not remember to 390 00:22:13,502 --> 00:22:16,942 Speaker 2: Meeka punching her with a closed fist up to four times. 391 00:22:17,782 --> 00:22:20,622 Speaker 2: So I don't know whether Tamika has been told that 392 00:22:20,742 --> 00:22:23,702 Speaker 2: by Jason. That's certainly a theory that's been thrown around that. 393 00:22:23,902 --> 00:22:25,822 Speaker 2: You know, Tamika has been told that while she was 394 00:22:25,902 --> 00:22:28,422 Speaker 2: drunk and intoxicated, that you had a fight with Kira, 395 00:22:28,582 --> 00:22:30,622 Speaker 2: you punched her. You know, you did this, you did that. 396 00:22:30,622 --> 00:22:32,262 Speaker 2: That's what I mean with this case, Like, yeah, you 397 00:22:32,342 --> 00:22:34,142 Speaker 2: got one person saying I did this, but then you've 398 00:22:34,142 --> 00:22:36,062 Speaker 2: got a person who's sober and doesn't have much to 399 00:22:36,102 --> 00:22:38,462 Speaker 2: do with the family anymore saying that no, I was 400 00:22:38,502 --> 00:22:41,302 Speaker 2: there and that didn't happen. So it's really it's really 401 00:22:41,342 --> 00:22:42,782 Speaker 2: hard to know what's the truth. 402 00:22:42,542 --> 00:22:47,262 Speaker 3: Here and what's to Meeka's relationship with her brother, like now. 403 00:22:47,662 --> 00:22:50,742 Speaker 2: She says it's non existent. She cut ties with him, 404 00:22:51,102 --> 00:22:52,942 Speaker 2: And you know, I tend to believe her on that 405 00:22:53,022 --> 00:22:55,782 Speaker 2: because she did meet us, and she did provide us 406 00:22:55,782 --> 00:22:58,502 Speaker 2: a lot of information. She gave us documents, and you know, 407 00:22:58,542 --> 00:23:01,142 Speaker 2: she came on the record, despite what you think of 408 00:23:01,182 --> 00:23:03,902 Speaker 2: her and what other people might think of her, to 409 00:23:03,902 --> 00:23:05,702 Speaker 2: come on the record and put all that out there 410 00:23:05,782 --> 00:23:08,902 Speaker 2: and for hundreds of thousands of people to hear, it's 411 00:23:08,942 --> 00:23:11,982 Speaker 2: pretty ballsy. So I tend to believe her when she 412 00:23:12,022 --> 00:23:14,102 Speaker 2: says that she doesn't have anything to do with him 413 00:23:14,102 --> 00:23:16,662 Speaker 2: and doesn't want anything to do with him. It's really 414 00:23:16,742 --> 00:23:19,422 Speaker 2: hard to because she's sort of not responding to me anymore. 415 00:23:19,462 --> 00:23:21,782 Speaker 2: So I don't know where she stands with it. 416 00:23:22,742 --> 00:23:26,502 Speaker 3: On the podcast, did she have a theory about what 417 00:23:26,582 --> 00:23:28,902 Speaker 3: happened to Kira? As someone who knew her brother as 418 00:23:28,902 --> 00:23:32,782 Speaker 3: well as she did and knew the dynamic of their relationship. 419 00:23:32,862 --> 00:23:35,702 Speaker 3: Does she have a theory about what caused Kira's death? 420 00:23:36,062 --> 00:23:39,222 Speaker 2: Yes, she does because she was told by someone. He 421 00:23:39,302 --> 00:23:42,582 Speaker 2: told I don't know how much you can play on 422 00:23:42,622 --> 00:23:46,862 Speaker 2: the air here, but what happened was Tamika became friends 423 00:23:46,902 --> 00:23:51,422 Speaker 2: with Jason's next girl for enoughter Kira. I called her Sally. 424 00:23:51,582 --> 00:23:54,462 Speaker 2: That's not her real name. She lives into state. But 425 00:23:54,822 --> 00:23:58,862 Speaker 2: Jason and Sally hooked up over Facebook and they had 426 00:23:58,902 --> 00:24:02,382 Speaker 2: a very bad relationship and allegedly that's why he's in 427 00:24:02,422 --> 00:24:05,902 Speaker 2: prison now for stuff that happened to her. She refused 428 00:24:05,942 --> 00:24:07,942 Speaker 2: to speak to me on the record, but she did 429 00:24:07,982 --> 00:24:10,182 Speaker 2: give me text messages and was happy for me to 430 00:24:10,262 --> 00:24:14,622 Speaker 2: reach them out. She told me, and she told Tamika, Tamika, 431 00:24:14,742 --> 00:24:18,222 Speaker 2: this is not your crime. He broke down and confessed 432 00:24:18,222 --> 00:24:21,982 Speaker 2: to me what happened. One day, and this is what 433 00:24:22,262 --> 00:24:27,502 Speaker 2: he said happened, and allegedly he repeatedly smashed a head 434 00:24:27,502 --> 00:24:29,262 Speaker 2: against the bathroom floor. 435 00:24:30,502 --> 00:24:34,622 Speaker 3: And with that kind of I suppose it's not clear 436 00:24:34,662 --> 00:24:37,462 Speaker 3: evidence because it's via sort of a secondary source. But 437 00:24:38,822 --> 00:24:42,742 Speaker 3: is that enough for the police to sort of look 438 00:24:42,862 --> 00:24:45,702 Speaker 3: more closely, because clearly this wasn't an accident. This is 439 00:24:45,702 --> 00:24:50,302 Speaker 3: someone who's died as a result of foul play. And 440 00:24:50,382 --> 00:24:52,822 Speaker 3: there's now been a coronial inquest opened, hasn't that. 441 00:24:53,822 --> 00:24:56,262 Speaker 2: Yeah, they yet to announce a date, but yes, they 442 00:24:56,302 --> 00:24:58,862 Speaker 2: have said that they would be doing a coronial inquest 443 00:24:59,182 --> 00:25:01,582 Speaker 2: into it. So I would assume that that would ruffle 444 00:25:01,662 --> 00:25:04,982 Speaker 2: some feathers and shake the trees a bit, because yeah, 445 00:25:05,022 --> 00:25:08,142 Speaker 2: I agree, it is secondary, but when you put all 446 00:25:08,142 --> 00:25:11,942 Speaker 2: those links together, it certainly strength a case. And I 447 00:25:12,022 --> 00:25:15,222 Speaker 2: believe Sally has told the police that. But again, I 448 00:25:15,262 --> 00:25:17,262 Speaker 2: think it comes down to he says, she says, you 449 00:25:17,302 --> 00:25:19,862 Speaker 2: know that old saying if they're the only two present, 450 00:25:19,942 --> 00:25:23,382 Speaker 2: and he denies it, but she says it happens. But yeah, 451 00:25:23,422 --> 00:25:26,502 Speaker 2: I read that on the podcast. Actually I debated whether 452 00:25:26,542 --> 00:25:29,142 Speaker 2: I should or shouldn't, but I did because it is 453 00:25:29,182 --> 00:25:32,742 Speaker 2: important and well, that's what Tmka's theory was She tends 454 00:25:32,782 --> 00:25:36,942 Speaker 2: to believe that that's what's happened, that he's become enraged 455 00:25:36,942 --> 00:25:40,822 Speaker 2: about something and just lost it and just started smashing 456 00:25:40,822 --> 00:25:41,222 Speaker 2: her head. 457 00:25:41,942 --> 00:25:45,622 Speaker 3: And what does here is mother Allison think happen. You 458 00:25:45,662 --> 00:25:48,742 Speaker 3: spoke to her extensively for the podcast, and she's been 459 00:25:49,102 --> 00:25:51,862 Speaker 3: really involved in supportive of the work because it's put 460 00:25:51,942 --> 00:25:55,302 Speaker 3: Kira back in the public's mind. Does she have a 461 00:25:55,382 --> 00:25:56,542 Speaker 3: theory about what happened? 462 00:25:57,102 --> 00:26:00,862 Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty much along those lines. She believes while they 463 00:26:00,862 --> 00:26:04,622 Speaker 2: are alone together, he's become angry or enraged and he's 464 00:26:04,742 --> 00:26:08,622 Speaker 2: beaten her to death, probably in the way that Sally describes. 465 00:26:09,622 --> 00:26:12,982 Speaker 2: She has no out that's what happened because she's seen 466 00:26:13,222 --> 00:26:17,422 Speaker 2: behavior from him. Kira and her were quite close, but 467 00:26:17,862 --> 00:26:21,062 Speaker 2: Kira did keep this from her, And she looks back 468 00:26:21,062 --> 00:26:23,342 Speaker 2: and she reflects on a few things that happened and 469 00:26:23,382 --> 00:26:27,022 Speaker 2: a few little mannerisms and words that Kira said, and 470 00:26:27,142 --> 00:26:31,142 Speaker 2: she now puts it together in hindsight and thinks, yeah, 471 00:26:31,182 --> 00:26:34,102 Speaker 2: she was trying to protect me from him, because he 472 00:26:34,182 --> 00:26:37,742 Speaker 2: did threaten Allison, and he did threaten the family. You know, 473 00:26:38,142 --> 00:26:40,462 Speaker 2: that's the kind of guy he was, and she regrets 474 00:26:40,462 --> 00:26:42,742 Speaker 2: it to this day. You know, not talking more, but 475 00:26:43,342 --> 00:26:46,982 Speaker 2: there was those little cues, all little words, and you know, 476 00:26:47,102 --> 00:26:49,822 Speaker 2: things that were said and done that maybe were more 477 00:26:49,902 --> 00:26:54,542 Speaker 2: serious than came across to be. But she believes that wholeheartedly. 478 00:26:54,862 --> 00:26:56,582 Speaker 2: She died as a result of Jason. 479 00:26:58,142 --> 00:27:02,342 Speaker 3: I want to follow up on Kira's four kids. Where 480 00:27:02,382 --> 00:27:06,182 Speaker 3: were they on that afternoon and night when there were 481 00:27:06,222 --> 00:27:09,462 Speaker 3: allegedly people over at her house? Where were they? 482 00:27:09,742 --> 00:27:13,462 Speaker 2: Well, God that they were not home. They were with 483 00:27:13,742 --> 00:27:17,302 Speaker 2: Kira's ex husband and Alison at the same time, because 484 00:27:17,342 --> 00:27:20,382 Speaker 2: Alison didn't live in Queensland, she actually lived in New 485 00:27:20,422 --> 00:27:24,462 Speaker 2: South Wales, and she came up because what she'd seen 486 00:27:24,502 --> 00:27:27,502 Speaker 2: and heard from the ex husband and from Kira, she 487 00:27:27,862 --> 00:27:30,622 Speaker 2: as well as the ex husband were concerned about the 488 00:27:30,702 --> 00:27:34,502 Speaker 2: kids being in the house with Jason, and so Allison 489 00:27:34,542 --> 00:27:37,142 Speaker 2: and she still talks about it this day. She sort 490 00:27:37,142 --> 00:27:39,622 Speaker 2: of blames herself in a way, but her and the 491 00:27:39,662 --> 00:27:41,982 Speaker 2: ex husband were trying to get the kids back and 492 00:27:42,022 --> 00:27:44,942 Speaker 2: they actually wrote to a solicitor who then contacted Kira 493 00:27:45,022 --> 00:27:47,582 Speaker 2: to say, look, while Jason's in the house, we're not 494 00:27:47,662 --> 00:27:50,702 Speaker 2: giving the kids back because we don't believe he's safe. 495 00:27:51,742 --> 00:27:55,822 Speaker 2: And Alison sort of blames herself for that. So Alison 496 00:27:55,902 --> 00:27:59,422 Speaker 2: was with the ex husband with all four kids while 497 00:27:59,502 --> 00:28:01,622 Speaker 2: this terrible night was occurring. 498 00:28:02,462 --> 00:28:05,742 Speaker 3: Do we know who is looking after the kids? 499 00:28:05,782 --> 00:28:06,022 Speaker 1: Now? 500 00:28:06,582 --> 00:28:11,022 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's Kira's ex husband, who I haven't mentioned his 501 00:28:11,182 --> 00:28:15,342 Speaker 2: name throughout the podcast because he's politely asked me not 502 00:28:15,462 --> 00:28:17,822 Speaker 2: to and he's refused to comment, and he's made it 503 00:28:17,862 --> 00:28:19,982 Speaker 2: pretty well known to Allison that he doesn't want anything 504 00:28:20,022 --> 00:28:23,022 Speaker 2: to do with it. He doesn't want the kids' names mentioned, 505 00:28:23,302 --> 00:28:26,622 Speaker 2: you know, And that's why you don't hear much of 506 00:28:27,142 --> 00:28:31,182 Speaker 2: Kira's story before she met up with Jason. Basically, my 507 00:28:31,302 --> 00:28:35,502 Speaker 2: story starts nine months before she died because I couldn't 508 00:28:35,542 --> 00:28:38,222 Speaker 2: really go into their relationship, you know, he didn't really 509 00:28:38,222 --> 00:28:39,302 Speaker 2: want any part of it. 510 00:28:39,422 --> 00:28:43,702 Speaker 3: So finally, I want to know if, with the information 511 00:28:43,822 --> 00:28:46,782 Speaker 3: that you've compiled, and you've found by speaking to neighbors 512 00:28:46,822 --> 00:28:51,702 Speaker 3: and friends and family members, and now this coronial inquest opening, 513 00:28:52,262 --> 00:28:55,622 Speaker 3: do you think that it's possible that Kira's family will 514 00:28:55,662 --> 00:28:57,422 Speaker 3: see justice for what happened to her? 515 00:28:57,862 --> 00:29:00,742 Speaker 2: You know what I actually do, And when I first 516 00:29:00,822 --> 00:29:03,782 Speaker 2: finished the series, I didn't know what to think because 517 00:29:04,102 --> 00:29:06,502 Speaker 2: I wanted to make that phone call to Alison to say, look, 518 00:29:06,542 --> 00:29:09,142 Speaker 2: guess what he's been charged or look, guess what this 519 00:29:09,182 --> 00:29:13,262 Speaker 2: has happened. But I couldn't do that unfortunately. But you know, 520 00:29:13,342 --> 00:29:18,022 Speaker 2: with what's being presented and with the future coronial inquests 521 00:29:18,262 --> 00:29:22,062 Speaker 2: about to happen, will happen one day, I am confident 522 00:29:22,102 --> 00:29:24,022 Speaker 2: that once they hear all this evidence, you know, because 523 00:29:24,102 --> 00:29:27,262 Speaker 2: Nakoda the brother was never interviewed, a few other people 524 00:29:27,342 --> 00:29:31,502 Speaker 2: were never interviewed. I'm really hoping that when they get 525 00:29:31,502 --> 00:29:34,822 Speaker 2: in there and you know, if they speak truthfully, then yeah, 526 00:29:34,942 --> 00:29:38,622 Speaker 2: I am confident we can get to the bottom of this. Yeah, 527 00:29:38,662 --> 00:29:43,982 Speaker 2: I am. 528 00:29:44,222 --> 00:29:47,142 Speaker 1: In twenty twenty one, a coronial inquest found that Kirile 529 00:29:47,342 --> 00:29:50,302 Speaker 1: died from swelling of the brain caused by an obstruction 530 00:29:50,422 --> 00:29:55,022 Speaker 1: of air or blood. Deputy state coroner Jane Bentley found 531 00:29:55,062 --> 00:29:58,182 Speaker 1: that her de facto partner, Paul McDonald, who Jamie called 532 00:29:58,302 --> 00:30:01,142 Speaker 1: Jason at the time of his podcast for legal reasons, 533 00:30:01,662 --> 00:30:05,182 Speaker 1: was likely drunk and became enraged when she told him. 534 00:30:05,102 --> 00:30:05,822 Speaker 2: She was leaving. 535 00:30:06,662 --> 00:30:10,102 Speaker 1: Her findings went into shocking detail. If he's seventy plus 536 00:30:10,182 --> 00:30:15,102 Speaker 1: miss violence convictions, including that he'd choked, bashed, and threatened 537 00:30:15,262 --> 00:30:18,622 Speaker 1: multiple women, telling one of his victims he'd got away 538 00:30:18,662 --> 00:30:23,582 Speaker 1: with murder. She wrote that MacDonald likely struck Kierlee's head 539 00:30:23,582 --> 00:30:26,142 Speaker 1: with a baseball bat, hit her head on the floor, 540 00:30:26,622 --> 00:30:29,102 Speaker 1: and possibly pushed her head into the toilet wall of 541 00:30:29,142 --> 00:30:33,022 Speaker 1: the house they shared. It is highly probable he choked her. 542 00:30:33,302 --> 00:30:37,582 Speaker 1: She added. While there had been claims that Kierlee's injuries 543 00:30:37,582 --> 00:30:41,062 Speaker 1: were caused by a drug overdose, unrelated fight, or by 544 00:30:41,102 --> 00:30:44,262 Speaker 1: striking her head on a shower wall, the coroner said 545 00:30:44,342 --> 00:30:49,182 Speaker 1: they were all theories inconsistent with the medical evidence. Following 546 00:30:49,222 --> 00:30:53,062 Speaker 1: the inquest, the Queensland Police Homicide Investigation Unit established an 547 00:30:53,102 --> 00:30:56,862 Speaker 1: investigation center in Gimpi, and in July twenty twenty two, 548 00:30:57,622 --> 00:31:01,822 Speaker 1: Paul MacDonald was charged with murder. He faced a committal 549 00:31:01,862 --> 00:31:05,702 Speaker 1: hearing in April twenty twenty four. His case is still 550 00:31:05,742 --> 00:31:09,022 Speaker 1: before the courts. Thanks so much for listening to this 551 00:31:09,102 --> 00:31:12,382 Speaker 1: special series of true crime conversations, which was hosted by 552 00:31:12,422 --> 00:31:16,102 Speaker 1: me Jemma Bath with audio design by Scott Stronik. Our 553 00:31:16,142 --> 00:31:20,262 Speaker 1: executive producer is Geomoylan. Mamma Miya has partnered with the 554 00:31:20,342 --> 00:31:24,062 Speaker 1: charity Rise Up Australia. Their mission is to deliver life 555 00:31:24,182 --> 00:31:28,742 Speaker 1: changing and practical support to families experiencing domestic and family violence. 556 00:31:29,262 --> 00:31:31,062 Speaker 1: If you'd like to support them, you'll find a link 557 00:31:31,062 --> 00:31:33,822 Speaker 1: in our show notes. And if this episode has brought 558 00:31:33,862 --> 00:31:35,622 Speaker 1: up anything for you, or you just feel like you 559 00:31:35,662 --> 00:31:37,822 Speaker 1: need to speak to someone, please call one eight hundred 560 00:31:37,902 --> 00:31:40,942 Speaker 1: respect on one eight hundred seven three seven seven three 561 00:31:41,022 --> 00:31:43,542 Speaker 1: to two. I'll be back next week. See you then,