WEBVTT - Your AM Headlines + Trusting AI With Our Deepest Secrets 0:00:06.355 --> 0:00:09.075 You're listening to a Mamma Mia podcast. 0:00:13.395 --> 0:00:15.935 Good morning. I'm Tamsyn Rose with the latest from the 0:00:15.975 --> 0:00:16.915 Quickie newsroom. 0:00:18.975 --> 0:00:21.735 I can't even begin to say how many times I 0:00:21.775 --> 0:00:24.915 have used ChatJBT as an emotional support. 0:00:25.315 --> 0:00:27.975 Does that sound familiar? The urge to ask a chatbot 0:00:28.035 --> 0:00:32.085 about something happening in your life, perhaps rather than a friend. Well, 0:00:32.175 --> 0:00:35.385 new research has looked into just how Australians are using 0:00:35.464 --> 0:00:39.405 AI chatbots for their emotional support, and the figures are staggering. 0:00:40.004 --> 0:00:43.505 But first, here's Charlotte Mortlock with your news headlines for Monday, 0:00:43.565 --> 0:00:44.284 September 21. 0:00:44.284 --> 0:00:51.394 Thanks, Tamsin. Australians have been left reeling following a horror weekend, 0:00:51.474 --> 0:00:54.195 including the deaths of a child and three women in 0:00:54.255 --> 0:00:57.915 alleged attacks across New South Wales. Police were called to 0:00:57.975 --> 0:01:00.875 Valley Heights in the Blue Mountains on Sunday afternoon and 0:01:01.225 --> 0:01:04.715 where they found a child dead inside a car. Paramedics 0:01:04.815 --> 0:01:07.435 treated another two children and a woman at the scene 0:01:07.515 --> 0:01:10.885 before they were taken to hospital, all in a critical condition. 0:01:11.665 --> 0:01:14.565 Police said their identities were yet to be confirmed, but 0:01:14.605 --> 0:01:17.225 the children were all thought to be younger than five. 0:01:17.805 --> 0:01:20.915 A crime scene has been established, but authorities said they 0:01:20.945 --> 0:01:24.135 were not looking for anyone else in relation to the incident. 0:01:25.135 --> 0:01:28.054 Earlier on the weekend, on Saturday morning in Wagga Wagga, 0:01:28.175 --> 0:01:31.435 a 23-year-old woman died after being found with stab worms 0:01:31.475 --> 0:01:34.785 at a home. A 31-year-old man was arrested and later 0:01:34.845 --> 0:01:38.565 charged with murder. Late Saturday afternoon, police were called to 0:01:38.605 --> 0:01:41.905 a unit in Bondi following reports of a stabbing. A 0:01:41.925 --> 0:01:45.405 90-year-old woman died at the scene. A 47-year-old man was 0:01:45.445 --> 0:01:50.385 arrested and charged with domestic violence-related murder. And later that 0:01:50.515 --> 0:01:53.255 same day in Mole River, west of Tenterfield in the 0:01:53.295 --> 0:01:57.865 Northern Tablelands, Police believe a 37-year-old man entered a property, 0:01:58.025 --> 0:02:01.985 tried to steal a vehicle and assaulted the 74-year-old resident. 0:02:02.545 --> 0:02:04.605 Officers then found the body of a woman in her 0:02:04.685 --> 0:02:08.514 70s on a neighbouring property. On Sunday night, no one 0:02:08.575 --> 0:02:11.655 had been charged over the death. Over in the US, 0:02:11.734 --> 0:02:15.995 President Donald Trump has banned CNN, MSNOW and Politico from 0:02:16.075 --> 0:02:21.234 White House press conferences and briefings, with journalist press passes confiscated. 0:02:21.665 --> 0:02:24.365 And he's flagged he's not done yet, warning other outlets 0:02:24.485 --> 0:02:27.945 could be next. Trump says it's because they report, you 0:02:27.965 --> 0:02:31.985 guessed it, fake news. But the White House Correspondents Association 0:02:32.205 --> 0:02:35.185 is saying it'll fight the bans. The move breaches press 0:02:35.245 --> 0:02:39.735 freedom protections under the U.S. Constitution. Staying in the U.S., 0:02:39.795 --> 0:02:43.075 the Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, sat down for an hour-long 0:02:43.195 --> 0:02:48.155 closed-door meeting with Apple's executive chairman, Tim Cook, Albo spruiked 0:02:48.275 --> 0:02:51.555 Australia's world-leading social media bans and made the case for 0:02:51.635 --> 0:02:55.835 global AI regulation, urging the US and China to strike 0:02:55.875 --> 0:02:58.855 a deal to make sure humans remain in control. Ed 0:02:58.895 --> 0:03:02.295 Sheeran says he made mistakes and called the situation in 0:03:02.375 --> 0:03:06.755 Gaza unjustifiable as he opened his first US concert since 0:03:06.815 --> 0:03:10.645 the Macklemore saga erupted. Every other support act on the 0:03:10.705 --> 0:03:14.665 tour has since quit in solidarity with Macklemore. Sheeran said 0:03:14.705 --> 0:03:18.375 he was grateful to his fans for being there. Coming up, 0:03:18.475 --> 0:03:22.085 Australians born today are set to live a whole lot longer. Plus, 0:03:22.365 --> 0:03:26.325 is your best friend actually an AI chatbot? We unpack 0:03:26.365 --> 0:03:37.975 the good and bad of leaning on AI. Treasury will 0:03:37.995 --> 0:03:41.975 release its intergenerational report in full today. It's the document 0:03:41.995 --> 0:03:45.135 that looks 40 years ahead to help shape policy created 0:03:45.215 --> 0:03:48.745 now for the future. it'll confirm much of what we 0:03:48.885 --> 0:03:53.305 already suspect. Aussie households are shrinking with fewer babies per family, 0:03:53.745 --> 0:03:57.285 but we're also living longer. A sneak peek released Sunday 0:03:57.365 --> 0:04:00.585 showed life expectancy at birth is forecast to hit almost 0:04:00.585 --> 0:04:05.185 90 for women by 2065, up from about 86 now. 0:04:05.725 --> 0:04:08.875 Men are also set to gain four years, expected to 0:04:08.935 --> 0:04:11.585 live to 86, up from 82. 0:04:14.315 --> 0:04:17.515 Two years ago, saying you'd run your most personal details 0:04:17.594 --> 0:04:21.244 and turmoils through an AI chatbot and then act upon 0:04:21.404 --> 0:04:25.085 its ideas and directives? Well, you couldn't have because those 0:04:25.125 --> 0:04:29.605 technologies hardly existed. But now it's commonplace for many of us. 0:04:29.925 --> 0:04:33.065 If I'm stressed, anxious or overthinking something, I basically word 0:04:33.125 --> 0:04:35.985 vomit the entire situation into it like I'm voice noting 0:04:36.025 --> 0:04:39.995 a friend. It helps me untangle it, what I'm actually feeling, 0:04:40.235 --> 0:04:42.995 work out what I can control and figure out what 0:04:43.035 --> 0:04:43.695 to do next. 0:04:44.165 --> 0:04:47.375 That's someone here in the Mamma Mia office and she's 0:04:47.495 --> 0:04:48.115 not alone. 0:04:48.135 --> 0:04:54.455 I used it so much with my daughter and it 0:04:54.495 --> 0:04:57.855 saved me waiting for replies from my friends because I 0:04:57.895 --> 0:05:01.195 was trying to find answers and comfort in the middle 0:05:01.215 --> 0:05:01.595 of the night. 0:05:02.705 --> 0:05:05.465 I can't even begin to say how many times I 0:05:05.505 --> 0:05:09.685 have used ChatJBT as an emotional support, whether it comes 0:05:09.705 --> 0:05:12.385 to when I was dating and then being in a 0:05:12.425 --> 0:05:15.185 relationship and running things past chat. Because, hey, you know, 0:05:15.245 --> 0:05:19.335 sometimes you just want an objective third party listener. And 0:05:19.395 --> 0:05:22.415 then even sometimes with friendships, if you want to figure 0:05:22.455 --> 0:05:24.775 out where someone else could be coming from, you can 0:05:24.815 --> 0:05:28.115 ask chat maybe to tell you where you could be 0:05:28.155 --> 0:05:30.735 going wrong or whether it thinks you're right in the situation. 0:05:31.685 --> 0:05:34.395 You've probably got friends who do this. Maybe you do it. 0:05:34.645 --> 0:05:37.535 But until recently, just how much we were telling our 0:05:37.735 --> 0:05:42.355 AI chatbot friends rather than our real in-person friends was 0:05:42.375 --> 0:05:43.995 a mystery. That's until now. 0:05:44.415 --> 0:05:47.715 Mid last year, it felt like a lot was accelerating 0:05:47.755 --> 0:05:52.085 when it came to AI chatbots, both in their capabilities 0:05:52.405 --> 0:05:56.255 and their use by people in everyday life. So as 0:05:56.315 --> 0:05:59.495 a researcher, I wanted to look behind the headlines and 0:05:59.695 --> 0:06:04.235 really investigate through a survey with the Australian public. Who 0:06:04.295 --> 0:06:08.094 is using these chatbots for personal or social reasons? How 0:06:08.155 --> 0:06:10.935 are they using them? And what might this mean or 0:06:11.015 --> 0:06:14.075 signal for what future is to come for us? So 0:06:14.095 --> 0:06:16.195 we've now done two waves of this research. 0:06:16.495 --> 0:06:19.835 Brooke Cranler is the Associate Director of Custom Research at 0:06:19.915 --> 0:06:23.055 YouGov Australia, and she's been looking at just how much 0:06:23.135 --> 0:06:26.125 we rely on chatbots to help us with our innermost 0:06:26.225 --> 0:06:28.545 emotional worlds. And it's a lot. 0:06:28.905 --> 0:06:32.664 Our most recent research in terms of who's using chatbots 0:06:32.705 --> 0:06:36.535 for these personal or social reasons, we found that one 0:06:36.575 --> 0:06:40.215 in four, so 26%, say that they have opened up 0:06:40.415 --> 0:06:44.175 or been emotionally vulnerable with a chatbot. And most of 0:06:44.235 --> 0:06:46.695 those people say that they've done so on more than 0:06:46.815 --> 0:06:51.825 one occasion. We've also consistently found that certain proportions of 0:06:52.285 --> 0:06:56.145 Australian society are opening up to chatbots at a higher rate. 0:06:56.225 --> 0:07:00.345 So Gen Z and millennials, no surprise, the younger end 0:07:00.385 --> 0:07:04.805 of the spectrum, nearly four in 10 Gen Z adults, 0:07:04.845 --> 0:07:09.005 so 38% have been vulnerable with a chatbot. And that's 0:07:09.065 --> 0:07:13.125 even actually higher for millennials who have 46% of millennials vulnerable. 0:07:14.155 --> 0:07:20.975 They found that those who describe themselves as often lonely 0:07:21.055 --> 0:07:24.015 or isolated are significantly. 0:07:23.195 --> 0:07:26.095 More likely than those who say they are not often 0:07:26.195 --> 0:07:30.115 lonely or isolated to have been vulnerable with a chatbot. 0:07:30.875 --> 0:07:35.055 And the figures are stark. 35% of all lonely Australians 0:07:35.155 --> 0:07:39.035 have been vulnerable with a chatbot. versus about 18% of 0:07:39.175 --> 0:07:40.255 non-lonely adults. 0:07:40.675 --> 0:07:44.975 This study in particular hasn't yet meaningfully assessed drivers of 0:07:45.015 --> 0:07:48.075 that loneliness. So it's hard to know, are more lonely 0:07:48.115 --> 0:07:51.695 people flocking to AI? Or is there something about that 0:07:52.055 --> 0:07:55.715 relationship or how people are using AI that might even 0:07:55.755 --> 0:08:00.895 be exacerbating that loneliness? I will say there are early 0:08:00.995 --> 0:08:05.305 signs of substitution risk, both in friendship and in love. 0:08:06.045 --> 0:08:06.285 So. 0:08:06.965 --> 0:08:10.025 When I talk about substitution, I mean people actively foregoing 0:08:10.105 --> 0:08:14.905 human interaction or socialization to interact with AI. So we 0:08:15.005 --> 0:08:19.635 ask people to agree or disagree along a scale with 0:08:19.655 --> 0:08:22.795 the statement, sometimes I would rather stay at home and 0:08:22.835 --> 0:08:24.795 talk to a chatbot than go out with friends. 0:08:25.295 --> 0:08:28.655 The YouGov research found that one in seven Australians, so 0:08:28.715 --> 0:08:33.045 about 14%, said that sometimes they would rather stay at 0:08:33.105 --> 0:08:36.245 home and talk to a chatbot And that percentage gets 0:08:36.365 --> 0:08:40.785 higher for younger Australians. One in four Gen Z and millennials, 0:08:40.975 --> 0:08:45.675 between 22 and 24 percent, agreed that they would sometimes 0:08:45.795 --> 0:08:48.575 rather stay at home and talk to a chatbot than 0:08:48.615 --> 0:08:51.495 go out with friends. So what are we sharing with 0:08:51.535 --> 0:08:52.155 the chatbots? 0:08:52.595 --> 0:08:55.955 More than one in seven, so 15 percent, said that 0:08:55.975 --> 0:08:59.695 they'd shared personal thoughts or feelings with the chatbots. One 0:08:59.755 --> 0:09:02.535 in nine have shared something they haven't told anyone else, 0:09:02.595 --> 0:09:06.105 which is Interesting that we're now kind of divulging or 0:09:06.145 --> 0:09:11.005 potentially divulging some of our closest secrets to chatbots. More 0:09:11.025 --> 0:09:12.945 than one in nine said they turned to a chatbot 0:09:13.005 --> 0:09:17.175 for emotional support during a difficult time. And then more 0:09:17.215 --> 0:09:19.595 than one in 13 said that they actually felt like 0:09:19.615 --> 0:09:22.474 they have a quote friendship with a chatbot. So that 0:09:22.515 --> 0:09:24.954 gives a bit of indication, I think, in the different 0:09:24.995 --> 0:09:28.565 ways that or types of discussions or conversations that people 0:09:28.585 --> 0:09:29.665 are having with the chatbots. 0:09:30.105 --> 0:09:33.665 And there's a question about what this means for human relationships. 0:09:34.005 --> 0:09:36.665 They're also designed to tell you what you want to hear. 0:09:36.875 --> 0:09:40.475 And people don't always operate that way. Though a human 0:09:40.515 --> 0:09:43.694 relationship can still end and be worth it. It's not 0:09:43.755 --> 0:09:48.735 always easy in every moment. And large language models, if anything, 0:09:48.915 --> 0:09:52.145 they are geared and designed to be easy for us 0:09:52.165 --> 0:09:54.065 to use and for us to keep wanting to use it. 0:09:54.595 --> 0:09:58.515 Around 22% of each of those cohorts say that AI 0:09:58.554 --> 0:10:01.864 relationships can be just as rewarding as human ones. If 0:10:01.885 --> 0:10:04.305 you look at Gen X and baby boomers, that gets 0:10:04.685 --> 0:09:57.425 much lowered around And while Australians are pouring their hearts 0:09:57.445 --> 0:10:00.165 out to chatbots, it's still relatively unregulated in Australia. 0:10:22.225 --> 0:10:25.805 The federal government has established a cross-party body to examine 0:10:25.825 --> 0:10:30.325 the economic, legal and social dimensions of AI, including data 0:10:30.345 --> 0:10:33.695 sovereignty and consumer protection. It kicked off at the end 0:10:33.735 --> 0:10:37.694 of last week. But the e-safety commissioner, Julie Inman-Grand, has 0:10:37.735 --> 0:10:40.295 been sounding the alarm about this for over a year. 0:10:41.295 --> 0:10:43.535 In a report that she put out earlier this year, 0:10:43.655 --> 0:10:47.275 she warned that AI companions marketed as sources of friendship, 0:10:47.375 --> 0:10:52.584 emotional support or romantic companionship were becoming increasingly popular with 0:10:52.665 --> 0:10:57.145 Australian children and posed significant risks if safety guardrails were 0:10:57.185 --> 0:11:00.704 not in place. And there's also the question of where 0:11:00.765 --> 0:11:06.425 all that emotional disclosure actually goes. Chatbot conversations are typically stored, 0:11:06.845 --> 0:11:10.295 reviewed for safety and compliance purposes, and in many cases 0:11:10.554 --> 0:11:14.535 used to keep training the underlying model. Privacy experts have 0:11:14.615 --> 0:11:18.295 repeatedly flagged that most people have no real sense of 0:11:18.395 --> 0:11:21.205 how long that data is kept... who can access it, 0:11:21.565 --> 0:11:26.165 or whether it could resurface. And for the researcher, Crandler, 0:11:26.265 --> 0:11:29.954 who's been looking into this, the questions it's left her 0:11:29.995 --> 0:11:31.755 with are pretty monumental. 0:11:32.335 --> 0:11:36.054 After conducting these studies on AI and human relationships over 0:11:36.075 --> 0:11:38.735 the past year, I'd say we also need to be 0:11:38.775 --> 0:11:42.735 thinking really critically about the value of human interaction and 0:11:42.775 --> 0:11:47.845 relationships today. not just romantic relationships, but human friendships and 0:11:47.885 --> 0:11:52.105 in its most basic form, human conversation and shared human experiences. 0:11:52.945 --> 0:11:55.525 Thanks for listening today. For more news like this, please 0:11:55.605 --> 0:11:58.405 click follow on the quickie wherever you get your podcasts 0:11:58.545 --> 0:12:00.765 and please leave a rating and a review. 0:12:05.915 --> 0:12:08.775 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on 0:12:08.815 --> 0:12:10.355 which we have recorded this podcast.