Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by HP Australia and
Speaker 1: their instant Ink subscription.
Speaker 2: The brain is a powerful thing, but it can be
Speaker 2: powerful in like a negative way as well, And I
Speaker 2: kind of I still probably haven't fully unpacked that time psychologically,
Speaker 2: so about knowing you can be a man and you're
Speaker 2: still a man, as well as stepping into some of
Speaker 2: these other things that for a long time men have
Speaker 2: been made to feel like they can't be your show.
Speaker 2: There's a very strong divide between two sides, and both
Speaker 2: sides are kind of just talking into a void and
Speaker 2: no one's actually listening.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the seas the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy
Speaker 1: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what
Speaker 1: makes the heart seeing We work, then we rest, but
Speaker 1: rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than
Speaker 1: one way. So this is a platform to hear and
Speaker 1: explore the stories of those who found lives. They adore,
Speaker 1: the good, bad and ugly, the best and worst day
Speaker 1: will bear all the facets of seizing your yay. I'm
Speaker 1: Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned
Speaker 1: funentrepreneur who swapped the suits and heels to co found,
Speaker 1: Matcha Maiden and Matcha Milk bar CZA is a series
Speaker 1: of conversations on finding a life you love and exploring
Speaker 1: the self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along the way.
Speaker 1: Lovely Yeahborhood Just squeezing in another guest episode this week
Speaker 1: before we reconvene four Yays of Our Lives with Ang
Speaker 1: and of course for our second ever this Yea or
Speaker 1: That Ya segment, So if you haven't submitted to your
Speaker 1: questions for that, please do you still have time? Head
Speaker 1: back to the Last Years of Our Lives episode for
Speaker 1: more context on what I'm actually talking about. But basically,
Speaker 1: this Yea or That Yeah is where we've just decided
Speaker 1: to add a random segment like you know we like
Speaker 1: to do, and basically we're answering life's big questions like
Speaker 1: do you face towards or away from the water coming
Speaker 1: from the shower head when you're in the shower, or
Speaker 1: do you go toothpaste then water or water than toothpaste,
Speaker 1: or as some of you widows do, water then toothpaste
Speaker 1: then water again, Like what other big life I life
Speaker 1: question should we address? Because I feel like they're the
Speaker 1: things that you only find out about someone when you
Speaker 1: live with them, and you don't really ever talk about
Speaker 1: that stuff with people, but we all have a very
Speaker 1: defined way of doing it. So if you can think
Speaker 1: of any other questions we should address, please let us know. Anyway,
Speaker 1: back to this week, we are sneaking in another two
Speaker 1: guests actually, as it is currently Men's Health Week from
Speaker 1: the thirteenth to the nineteenth of June. As you know,
Speaker 1: while men's health, women's health, or anyone's health and the
Speaker 1: surrounding conversations about what that means, they're important every day
Speaker 1: of the year, but we do a dedicated episode every
Speaker 1: June for Men's Mental Health Week to specifically remind us
Speaker 1: of some of the major statistics which are often quite shocking,
Speaker 1: the unique challenges to men's health, and the useful resources
Speaker 1: that we have discovered along the way. And they've been
Speaker 1: such interesting and helpful episodes to me even as a woman,
Speaker 1: as a wife, as a sister, a friend, a colleague,
Speaker 1: and the list goes on. I don't think we could
Speaker 1: be graised with two better guests for the occasion than
Speaker 1: the absolutely Jens we have with us today for this
Speaker 1: year's episode, both of whom have actually been on the
Speaker 1: show before, but who are on together this time because
Speaker 1: since those appearances they have become friends and co authored
Speaker 1: a book. Back for his third appearance is psychiatrist, mental
Speaker 1: health advocate and former Cuff Club member. A few of
Speaker 1: you who've been listening along for long enough we'll know
Speaker 1: about lammy, So of course I am talking about the
Speaker 1: incredible doctor Kieran Kennedy. And for his second appearance, we
Speaker 1: also have joining him publisher, author, and former editor of
Speaker 1: the amazing men's health magazine Scott Henderson, or as some
Speaker 1: of you may know him, Scotti Hindo. So what an
Speaker 1: absolute dream team. If you've been listening along for a while,
Speaker 1: you'll already know what amazing work these guys are doing,
Speaker 1: each separately but now also together for men's health and
Speaker 1: health generally, as well as being fabulous role models in
Speaker 1: the realm of redefining modern masculinity and men's mental health conversations.
Speaker 1: But now they have colleated it all into the handbook
Speaker 1: we've literally talked about the world needing, perfectly titled The
Speaker 1: Manual Like Man You wel a practical guide to life,
Speaker 1: health and happiness from the science behind nutrition and training
Speaker 1: to the anecdotal surrounding relationships, body image, sexuality. They literally
Speaker 1: cover it all. I'll let them tell you more about
Speaker 1: it themselves, because I'm already not doing these incredible humans
Speaker 1: justice and their amazing book. This was such a delight funny,
Speaker 1: it was moving, it was reflective. I think you can
Speaker 1: hear how much I enjoyed it, and I hope that
Speaker 1: they did as well, and then also, of course hope
Speaker 1: that you guys enjoy it as much as we did. Guys,
Speaker 1: welcome back to Cca.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: It is so nice to see you both, and so
Speaker 1: nice to see you guys together because you weren't hanging
Speaker 1: out the last time both of you did your episode.
Speaker 1: So to jogging on memory, Scott, we haven't chatted on
Speaker 1: the show since June twenty nineteen, and Kieran June twenty
Speaker 1: twenty and June twenty twenty one. So we all skipped
Speaker 1: our reunion in June last year, and we're back on
Speaker 1: the first of June this year.
Speaker 3: Y I on a schedule only June.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exclusively June catchups. Is it a reaining Oh my god,
Speaker 1: shut up, it's a reainion.
Speaker 2: We're like a trio of weird animals that only comes
Speaker 2: out for ye.
Speaker 1: It's like Kieren Scott. Sarah's season is like from the
Speaker 1: first of June onwards, only Kiran's gone.
Speaker 3: Sarah in retrogade.
Speaker 1: I think we might be in Full Moon Rising. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure. So it's just so lovely to see you both,
Speaker 1: and you have both become really good friends and co
Speaker 1: authors since I spoke to you last. So it's also
Speaker 1: really strange and lovely to see you both next to
Speaker 1: each other.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well's colighting.
Speaker 1: Well, it's colliding in retrograde. Okay, but oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: Before we get to how you met, how you decided
Speaker 1: to become co authors, and this incredible book you've got,
Speaker 1: we have to catch the listeners up on what's been
Speaker 1: happening since your last episodes. We've kind of gone through
Speaker 1: both of your whole lives basically Kieran all the way
Speaker 1: back to Calf Club and Lammy, as I have labored
Speaker 1: many times on this show. Oh no, it's frozen.
Speaker 3: We freeze the ya.
Speaker 1: Sorry, you guys just froze.
Speaker 3: Oh there were we made a great freeze the ya. Pun.
Speaker 3: I don't know's You've better get onto it quick.
Speaker 1: Scott. I'm so proud of you. You can't take a
Speaker 1: magazine and exactly, I mean that's how we were introduced
Speaker 1: to you back in twenty nineteen. It was as you
Speaker 1: just had taken over the reins as editor of Men's Health.
Speaker 1: But since then, I mean, both of you have so
Speaker 1: many more chapters in your path, yays to catch us
Speaker 1: up on. So before we go any further, what's happened
Speaker 1: since then?
Speaker 3: Right, you go first? It's a lot. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, like I say, I guess we last caught up
Speaker 2: mate in twenty twenty one, didn't we?
Speaker 1: So yeah, we caught up in real life probably since then,
Speaker 1: but on the show was twenty twenty one in fake
Speaker 1: life in the digital world.
Speaker 2: Like coffee and drinks and too Mini scrambled eggs in
Speaker 2: Melbourne Mini, A catch up's been had.
Speaker 3: But yeah, no, it's been great.
Speaker 2: I've moved to Sydney, I say, I think since our
Speaker 2: last on air chats psychiatrist life, doctor life, jumping around
Speaker 2: the globe, a few travels. Yeah, it's been a wild
Speaker 2: ride and then writing a book. There's legend in between
Speaker 2: there somewhere as well.
Speaker 1: And you've also gone. I feel like last time we
Speaker 1: spoke to you, you were hectic in emergency in the hospital,
Speaker 1: kind of burnt out, really really working so hard. But
Speaker 1: I have since changed the structure of your work life
Speaker 1: as well, which has been amazing. So tell us about
Speaker 1: telehealth and now being out of work like you did
Speaker 1: a stint in Bali recently. You just come back from
Speaker 1: North America, Like, tell us how that's all come about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just been a really nice period of being
Speaker 2: able to take some time off and time away, you know,
Speaker 2: I have some holidays overseas and then just have some
Speaker 2: flexibility as well while I'm here in Australia with where
Speaker 2: I work and how I work, And No, it's just
Speaker 2: been amazing. I think so many doctors will relate to
Speaker 2: the you know, the sense of you' spend so many years,
Speaker 2: like we've talked about many a time, all three.
Speaker 1: Of us, I've talked about in June only Yeah, only when.
Speaker 3: We're away the rest of the year. We're in hibernation.
Speaker 1: Hiberation.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, it's one all.
Speaker 2: Your Yeah, so many years of kind of not having
Speaker 2: so much say in terms of how you work and
Speaker 2: what that looks like, and so it's yeah, it's been
Speaker 2: a great little time of popping out the other side
Speaker 2: and being able to take some more time for books
Speaker 2: and chats like this one, and just living a little
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 3: So it's been so great.
Speaker 1: I think it's also really beautiful just you know, on
Speaker 1: the whole theme of CZA and the ability to change
Speaker 1: your pathway in ways that you might not have expected
Speaker 1: and at times you might not have expected, like hospital
Speaker 1: care and probably couldn't have imagined that you could still
Speaker 1: be as passionate about psychology, but also have made more room.
Speaker 1: Like I remember you were squeezing in your interviews or
Speaker 1: squeezing in trips to Sydney and the partnerships you really
Speaker 1: wanted to work on you really couldn't because you couldn't
Speaker 1: leave the hospital during the day. So I think it's
Speaker 1: also reassuring to be like, if you envision a different structure,
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean you have to leave a career completely.
Speaker 1: You can definitely start to take steps to pivot towards
Speaker 1: having time to write a book.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And that's been just the beautiful thing for me
Speaker 2: in the last year or two has just been people
Speaker 2: to create some space for those other passions and for
Speaker 2: those things that for so many years, as you know,
Speaker 2: you know, I've wanted to kind of make time for
Speaker 2: like writing, like talking about men's health, like the media work.
Speaker 2: So it's yeah, it's been just very humbling to be
Speaker 2: able to see that kind.
Speaker 3: Of coming around.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how exciting. I'm so happy for you, and I've
Speaker 1: loved just being like, dude, you're in more different countries
Speaker 1: than I am, and that's saying something. Oh so, Scottie,
Speaker 1: what have you been up to since June twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2: Bed On, because I think I spoke to you when
Speaker 2: I had maybe just started editing mental health, So I
Speaker 2: did that, and then obviously pandemics here we got closed
Speaker 2: down for a while, so started my own I mean
Speaker 2: I was just kind of sitting on all these interviews
Speaker 2: and I mean health didn't stop just because kind of
Speaker 2: mental health stopped, so I kind of wanted to keep
Speaker 2: writing getting that out there, so started my own thing.
Speaker 2: Then we managed to get ment Health back on its feet,
Speaker 2: which was great. So I went back there for two years,
Speaker 2: but then left magazines at the end of last year
Speaker 2: and now I mean book publishing, so still sharing stories,
Speaker 2: just I guess in a longer format, which is exciting.
Speaker 2: It's working with some great authors and I'm really excited
Speaker 2: for those books. The funny thing is with magazines, right,
Speaker 2: you work on a magazine and it comes out in
Speaker 2: four weeks, whereas books. I'm working on books now and
Speaker 2: my books won't come out till January twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2: I think my first book comes out, So it's a long,
Speaker 2: long journey. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Wow, what a change of pace.
Speaker 3: Such a change of pace, but it's kind of it's nice.
Speaker 3: It's a lot more considered.
Speaker 2: And you know, we were just talking off air about
Speaker 2: how there's a permanence with books and they're kind of
Speaker 2: those words live on and those editions are around for
Speaker 2: a lot longer, so kind of there's a lot more
Speaker 2: care taking, not more care.
Speaker 3: That's disrespectful to magazines, isn't it a lot longer.
Speaker 1: Care, different care?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, cool. Well I'll never work in magazines. I
Speaker 3: guess I got to make it go with this book thing.
Speaker 1: I think like my favorite part. And I mean both
Speaker 1: of you kind of are on podcasts a lot. Scott,
Speaker 1: do you have your own podcast now? And I've Men's
Speaker 1: Health had a podcast and you guys are on that together.
Speaker 1: I think you'll understand that one of my favorite parts
Speaker 1: of having a show is that I get to track
Speaker 1: people's journeys, like you have an audio We have an
Speaker 1: audio record of who you guys were a couple of
Speaker 1: years ago in totally different chapters of your life. And like,
Speaker 1: obviously we've skated through COVID and a whole lot of changes.
Speaker 1: But one thing I love is that both of you,
Speaker 1: I think the bulk of our conversations with both of
Speaker 1: you was obviously very focused on men's health as a
Speaker 1: topic generally, but really focused on Scotty you had I
Speaker 1: think it was just before your first cover maybe had
Speaker 1: come out, and you were talking about how taking on
Speaker 1: the reins of such a big magazine you really wanted
Speaker 1: to redefine the kind of picture perfect image of a
Speaker 1: Men's Health cover and a men's Health model, and the
Speaker 1: stories that you were telling and kier and you and
Speaker 1: I have only spoken like on Men's Health Week issues
Speaker 1: in particular and the psychology around men's body image, and
Speaker 1: you guys have consistently been talking about the same things,
Speaker 1: And even if it's in a different format now, I
Speaker 1: think it's so cool that this book has come to
Speaker 1: fruition as something that is like reading your words. I'm like,
Speaker 1: we literally spoke about this, you guys have been passionate
Speaker 1: about this for going on, like well your whole lives
Speaker 1: really but it's so cool that now you know it
Speaker 1: is coming out in a more permanent form as a
Speaker 1: kind of guide.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I think we actually said in those episodes, we wish
Speaker 1: there was something we could give the modern man and
Speaker 1: that women could also read as well to understand the
Speaker 1: challenges that are unique to masculinity. And that's what your
Speaker 1: episodes were for me. I was like sharing them, like, guys,
Speaker 1: you need to understand, but get this out there, and
Speaker 1: you've done it, and now it's physically a manual, like
Speaker 1: literally the manuals and the two of you together like
Speaker 1: it just to me, I'm you know you guys know
Speaker 1: I bang on about the dots connecting like this is
Speaker 1: the biggest like collision of worlds that is just so
Speaker 1: exciting to me. So congratulations, thank you.
Speaker 2: It is so like it's quite surreal to like, especially
Speaker 2: like when we're talking about like you know, back when
Speaker 2: Scotty was with men's health and how we met through
Speaker 2: that and then the pandemic, you know, just all of
Speaker 2: how it's come around and how we've both.
Speaker 3: Just been actually interesting pandemic story. So I think you
Speaker 3: and Nikki were the last people that I saw, because
Speaker 3: I was in Melbourne right before the very first lockdown,
Speaker 3: and I think we went out to breakfast around the
Speaker 3: f one and then I flew back to Sydney and
Speaker 3: they wouldn't let me into the office and so they
Speaker 3: sent me home just because I'd been on a plane.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, you were like the last humans I
Speaker 2: had contact with, and then I never saw anyone ever again. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Wow, So I really got you through the pandemic.
Speaker 3: You really did.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in the Last of US TV show. Yeah, the
Speaker 2: Final Humans.
Speaker 1: Oh god, I love that. I think it's It's also
Speaker 1: so cool that, like we have known each other for
Speaker 1: kind of all of those chapters, and so, you know,
Speaker 1: often when people are like I never imagined I could
Speaker 1: write a book. I never imagined that I would end
Speaker 1: up here like and it's easy to think, O, well,
Speaker 1: assurely that's not true. But you guys, we have audio
Speaker 1: records of you actually saying those things, like I have
Speaker 1: no idea where I'm going to end up in a
Speaker 1: few years, like pre pandemic versions or mid pandemic versions
Speaker 1: of yourselves to compare to. And now this has come
Speaker 1: out so can you first tell us how you guys
Speaker 1: connected and then how that develops into, oh my god,
Speaker 1: we're going to write a book together. Was it just
Speaker 1: that shared passion for the same things?
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely pretty much. Yeah, so I guess we kind
Speaker 2: of connected. We did a issue of mental health when
Speaker 2: during the pandemic. I think the cover guy that we
Speaker 2: had lined up was Robbie Williams.
Speaker 1: And a close second to Kieran Kennedy.
Speaker 2: But then the world wasn't in a really like Robbie
Speaker 2: Williams life kind of place. Yeah, rocked a kind of
Speaker 2: buy it happened at that time, so we were like, cool,
Speaker 2: we actually want to do an issue dedicated to frontline workers.
Speaker 2: I think our digital team had worked with Kieran before,
Speaker 2: so we kind of knew Kieran, and then we knew
Speaker 2: that he was doing essential work in hospitals during the
Speaker 2: I guess the peak of the pandemic. So we kind
Speaker 2: of got him along to a studio. We were like, cool, well,
Speaker 2: we can't have hair and makeup because pandemic.
Speaker 3: We can't.
Speaker 2: It's just you and the photographer because pandemic. Can you
Speaker 2: please not talk to each other, touch each other near
Speaker 2: each other? So Anyway, we shot this cover and just
Speaker 2: think and it was one of a few magazines kind
Speaker 2: of did it. But I feel like we were kind
Speaker 2: of one of the first ones, even kind of globally
Speaker 2: to kind of do this issue dedicated to kind of
Speaker 2: frontline workers. And it's probably one of my favorite issues
Speaker 2: just in.
Speaker 3: Terms of meaning.
Speaker 2: But then it kind of took on more meaning because
Speaker 2: we obviously kept in touch after that issue and became friends.
Speaker 2: And it was funny the way we kept in touch
Speaker 2: because obviously Kieren was in Melbourne Mega Lockdown. I was
Speaker 2: in Sydney super carefree. But we would keep calling each other,
Speaker 2: and you know, what we would talk about were our
Speaker 2: frustrations with the state of men's health, in particular mental health.
Speaker 2: But you know, just I guess the lags in terms
Speaker 2: of information for available information from there and the way
Speaker 2: that information was being delivered. You know, I feel men
Speaker 2: and women consume information quite differently, and I just felt
Speaker 2: like it wasn't well, we felt like it wasn't a
Speaker 2: conversation that people were having. It was more do this,
Speaker 2: do this, do this, and it wasn't resonating with men.
Speaker 2: We're tricky eggs to crack, you know, and then.
Speaker 3: Well, and I think as well, like.
Speaker 2: We're especially the evolving man if well, you know, throw
Speaker 2: that in there. I think, you know, Scotty and I
Speaker 2: would talk so much about, especially with his work with
Speaker 2: men's health, and you know, some of the dabbling I'd done,
Speaker 2: and obviously fitness work a lot side medicine and all
Speaker 2: of that. We were sort of talking about this, you know,
Speaker 2: this like juxtaposition between these different things that men were
Speaker 2: or could be or should be in terms of the
Speaker 2: focus on the abs and the biceps versus the mental health.
Speaker 2: And you know, I think we just really all that
Speaker 2: coming together and needing to talk about kind of other
Speaker 2: aspects of men's health, you know that we're out in
Speaker 2: the media other than just the It's also it's such
Speaker 2: a good time to have this chat because you know,
Speaker 2: we were saying we kind of the mental health conversation
Speaker 2: has been gaining momentum for the last you know, seven
Speaker 2: to ten years. We had the me Too reckoning, which
Speaker 2: was way over due. Then obviously the pandemic happened, which
Speaker 2: everyone experience, you know, male, female or whatever.
Speaker 3: But there was a lot of.
Speaker 2: Rhetoric kind of around the last couple of years, especially
Speaker 2: I heard when I was working in mentell saying, Oh,
Speaker 2: it's a really tough time to be a man, and like,
Speaker 2: it's not. We've had our But I think what people
Speaker 2: mean by that is it's a confusing time because they
Speaker 2: don't know what the right thing, they don't know who
Speaker 2: they should be. But I guess the way that we
Speaker 2: flip that on its head, or the way that we
Speaker 2: looked at it was like, this is actually the most
Speaker 2: exciting time because all these reckonings are over due, you know,
Speaker 2: like we're being called out for bad behavior. We've been
Speaker 2: given this blank slate, so let's do it right, Let's
Speaker 2: do it in a healthy way, and let's reclaim masculinity
Speaker 2: and dismantle that toxic masculinity. And you know, it actually
Speaker 2: is the best time to be a man because we're
Speaker 2: in this position where we've been offered a blank slate
Speaker 2: and we can do it properly and respectfully to ourselves
Speaker 2: and the world around us. So that was kind of
Speaker 2: where we went. What was the question, how are you?
Speaker 1: What did you have for breakfast?
Speaker 3: Wow?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, duo monologue.
Speaker 1: But I think this is why I've always found you
Speaker 1: guys just so fascinating and powerful to chat to about
Speaker 1: these things because it is so easy for you guys
Speaker 1: to just start talking about literally why it is so
Speaker 1: important to have these conversations right now, why it's so
Speaker 1: important to have them. Especially, I think for both of
Speaker 1: you it's always been even more powerful. And I've loved
Speaker 1: our conversations personally because you both straddle these worlds of
Speaker 1: intense masculinity and this kind of new softness and ability
Speaker 1: to discuss mental health openly and not seeing you know,
Speaker 1: you can have both conversations. You both have like really
Speaker 1: strong connections in sport and exercise and fitness, and you know,
Speaker 1: one of the things I love that you say very
Speaker 1: early in the book is that, like aesthetics do not
Speaker 1: make it a man, but you've both lived in worlds
Speaker 1: and understand worlds where that is a very high value.
Speaker 1: There is a very high value place in magazines and
Speaker 1: editorial and covers of men's glossy, you know, covers of
Speaker 1: men's health. And then Kieran, you've done modeling, you've done bodybuilding,
Speaker 1: and you have been a cover guy yourself. So I
Speaker 1: think it's more powerful when it comes from you because
Speaker 1: you're not dismissing those things. You guys are saying our
Speaker 1: work involves these values. We know there has been traditionally
Speaker 1: a value on just aesthetics and abs and masculinity and blowkeiness,
Speaker 1: and you can do that chat, but you can also
Speaker 1: kind of have these new conversations. And I think it's
Speaker 1: that versatility that makes you guys easier to listen to
Speaker 1: and a lot more powerful because guys who are kind
Speaker 1: of in touch more with their blokey side and haven't
Speaker 1: opened up yet too, it's okay to have a weakness
Speaker 1: and you know, talk about mental health and struggles. They go, oh,
Speaker 1: but those guys are also like me, you know, it's
Speaker 1: they can talk that talk as well. Am I making sense?
Speaker 3: You know me?
Speaker 2: No, absolutely, And this just fires both of us up
Speaker 2: so much because that's like the just I think the
Speaker 2: crux of what we're so passionate about and what we
Speaker 2: wanted to put across in the book. It's sort of
Speaker 2: men and women. But I think for a long time,
Speaker 2: especially men, you know, it's sort of boxes or silos
Speaker 2: where it's kind of like, okay, well, if you're a
Speaker 2: man and you go to the gym and you want
Speaker 2: to work out or you're doing bodybuilding, just as an example,
Speaker 2: then that means that you are these things, but you're
Speaker 2: not those things, and vice versa.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: So I think it's as you say, and far too
Speaker 2: humbling to say that we or that I represent that
Speaker 2: and the personal lives thereah, But like I think for
Speaker 2: us feeling that in our own lives in terms of,
Speaker 2: like you say, loving sport and fitness and the gym,
Speaker 2: but also loving a good old you know, deeper meaningful
Speaker 2: or chatting about feelings and not being afraid of that
Speaker 2: side of things. You know, that was something that we
Speaker 2: wanted to bring across with medical knowledge and bring into
Speaker 2: the book and let men know that sort of they
Speaker 2: can step into as well. It's not about choosing or
Speaker 2: saying in one silo. It's about knowing you can be
Speaker 2: a man and you're still a man as well as
Speaker 2: you know, stepping into some of these other things that
Speaker 2: for a long time men have been made to feel
Speaker 2: like they can't be your show.
Speaker 1: M Well, I think like you've just done it so
Speaker 1: brilliantly because the book is such a like it's not
Speaker 1: too heavy on the science and in a way that
Speaker 1: it's intimidating or overwhelming. You kind of go from like
Speaker 1: the full science of exercise and nutrition like those basics,
Speaker 1: to like blue power aid to treat hangovers, to meditation,
Speaker 1: to then the psychology of online dating and attachment styles,
Speaker 1: Like it really covers every part of life, from yeah,
Speaker 1: the really intense, hard hitting science to just like the
Speaker 1: anecdotal conversational like these are the you know, silly hangover
Speaker 1: tips we have for dudes. Like, I just love that
Speaker 1: you're able to really like, even as a woman reading this,
Speaker 1: I was like, I understand Nick a lot more because
Speaker 1: you've kind of covered like this is a manual for
Speaker 1: everyone to understand men. And I had like heaps of
Speaker 1: epiphany moments about ways that he responds to certain things.
Speaker 1: That is not how I respond to certain things. It's
Speaker 1: just so broad in the way that you cover so
Speaker 1: many things at so many different levels of intensity. For
Speaker 1: you guys, I think one of my favorite things to
Speaker 1: ask new authors is like, what were the hardest bits
Speaker 1: for you to cover? And what were your favorite bits
Speaker 1: to cover?
Speaker 3: So cliche, the hardest were the favorites.
Speaker 2: It was all rewarding, right, But I think the hardest
Speaker 2: bits were So there were some bits like and I
Speaker 2: think this is kind of like what we tried to
Speaker 2: do in the book is like there are certain bits
Speaker 2: where we're super honest, like, for example, a plant based
Speaker 2: eating chapter.
Speaker 3: You know, I am quite honest with how I've tried.
Speaker 2: It and failed spectacularly, but I have seen benefits, and
Speaker 2: I think it was those were kind of fun ones
Speaker 2: to write because it was like maybe things that going
Speaker 2: into this we knew that we wanted to write about
Speaker 2: and include because there's obviously research and evidence based behind these,
Speaker 2: but maybe they weren't things.
Speaker 3: We were already incorporating. Meditation is another one.
Speaker 2: You know, I have this weird relationship with meditation where
Speaker 2: I now, as a result of writing this.
Speaker 3: Book, love it, but I have hated it, like I.
Speaker 2: Will be honest, it makes me very mad, but I
Speaker 2: come to appreciate it, and you know, and it's just
Speaker 2: I think as well. The thing with the manual is
Speaker 2: there are chapters. It's obviously broken down by the body,
Speaker 2: the fuel, the mind, and the fields, and there might
Speaker 2: be certain chapters within those that you feel, as a
Speaker 2: man you have a grasp of, but even reading them,
Speaker 2: you get, like what you said in relation to Nick,
Speaker 2: you get a perspective of maybe someone that's at a
Speaker 2: different stage in that chapter to you are. So whilst
Speaker 2: it's very much a manual for the individual, still reading
Speaker 2: those chapters that you think you have an understanding of
Speaker 2: it helps you maybe relate to people that are maybe
Speaker 2: just starting off in that. So it's also for the
Speaker 2: men in your life and around you, which is another
Speaker 2: chapter we talk about. Is you know that's great for
Speaker 2: the health is kind of looking after your community and
Speaker 2: those around you.
Speaker 1: I think it's really cool. How like in both like
Speaker 1: the intro and the conclusion, but also kind of weave
Speaker 1: throughout is the idea that masculinity started as like a
Speaker 1: defined term. It was like this one concept that had
Speaker 1: a dictionary definition. You're really inviting people to like find
Speaker 1: their own balance and definition because everyone will end up
Speaker 1: at a different level. And that's okay. And that's the
Speaker 1: same with everything, Like even it's not a judgmental book.
Speaker 1: It's not like you need to be more soft and
Speaker 1: you need to be more masculine and you need to
Speaker 1: have kind of all this balance. It's like it's okay
Speaker 1: if you're a little bit more, you know, a little
Speaker 1: bit less open to sensitivity. You don't have to be
Speaker 1: all the feels all the time. Like your balance could
Speaker 1: be a little bit different if you're aware that that's
Speaker 1: where you sit and kind of like that it's embracing
Speaker 1: everyone's levels and you're just figuring out what works for you.
Speaker 3: It's interesting, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Like there's that Bill Bauman quote, the founder of Nike,
Speaker 2: and it's if you have a body, you're an athlete. Well,
Speaker 2: it's pretty much the same. Like if you identify as
Speaker 2: a man, then how you are is masculine. Is masculinity,
Speaker 2: you know, And that's kind of what we really wanted
Speaker 2: to go back to, is like this is a great
Speaker 2: guide book of options and how to healthy and how
Speaker 2: to be happy, but ultimately masculinity is right for the
Speaker 2: divining Yeah, and that was one of my favorite parts
Speaker 2: of writing it and seeing it come, you.
Speaker 3: Know, to what it is now.
Speaker 2: Actually was just seeing as we wrote it this constant
Speaker 2: kind of like weaving back between chapters, in between parts
Speaker 2: of the book. And obviously we've separated out, like Scotty said,
Speaker 2: into you know, the body, the feels, the mind, and
Speaker 2: there's different chapters within those silos as well, but you know,
Speaker 2: it's just sort of seeing that this is just it's
Speaker 2: just a melting pot and everything relates back to everything else.
Speaker 2: It's the chapter about sexuality and identity, you know, and
Speaker 2: seeing how that relates back to the chapter on anxiety,
Speaker 2: or the chapter on loneliness and connection. It's, you know,
Speaker 2: seeing how they all kind of connected as we wrote.
Speaker 2: It was one of my favorite sort of things about
Speaker 2: the process because because it just shows exactly as you
Speaker 2: just said here that it's it's not about one way
Speaker 2: of defining it. It's just this the gold melting pot
Speaker 2: of throwing that you feel aligned with you most as
Speaker 2: a man, or that you might need to work on
Speaker 2: them a little bit more, or that you're feeling pretty
Speaker 2: good about or not so good about in certain ways.
Speaker 2: And yeah, for me, that was one of the and
Speaker 2: the twist at the end, yeah shocked.
Speaker 1: I fell off my chair. I was like, holy shit, balls.
Speaker 3: Like a medical mystery that we can ourselves.
Speaker 1: Yes, we are the main characters in our own story
Speaker 1: who done it. But I also think it's really cool
Speaker 1: how like, as you said, you link things from all
Speaker 1: areas of life and don't shy away from a like
Speaker 1: anecdotal evidence that really you both get very vulnerable in
Speaker 1: lots of parts where you move from the science to
Speaker 1: like even in a different font you kind of come
Speaker 1: in with your own story, but you cover things that
Speaker 1: are you know, still like quite stigmatized, like illicit drugs, steroids,
Speaker 1: Like dudes don't talk about steroids. But body image is
Speaker 1: possibly even bigger for men because it's not ventilated as
Speaker 1: much as it is for women, like and we've spoken
Speaker 1: about that in both of our episodes. I love that
Speaker 1: you guys hit those things really head on because it
Speaker 1: is something that most guys think about, they have these conversations.
Speaker 1: And I like that you've kind of covered everything and
Speaker 1: linked it back to well, this is actually related to
Speaker 1: your mood, This is related to the feelds, even though
Speaker 1: it's actually starts as a visual thing. Like everything connects,
Speaker 1: and I think you've done that brilliantly to dish them
Speaker 1: behind the sceneses dirt. Is there anything that you guys
Speaker 1: disagreed on because you wrote it together and I know
Speaker 1: you kind of took turns with different chapters and then
Speaker 1: had to marry it all to have one tone. Was
Speaker 1: there anything that you were like that you fought over?
Speaker 3: Good question, Actually think that there was no.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to like, I want to give you some time.
Speaker 2: I think I even like remember, like we.
Speaker 3: Very like.
Speaker 2: We were like I remember when we got the book
Speaker 2: deal and we were like, oh, we're going to go
Speaker 2: to like cafes in New York and write and go
Speaker 2: on writing retreats. And we actually did go on a
Speaker 2: writing retreat the first thing. So we went away to
Speaker 2: Kangaroo Valley like no reception. We just spent like three
Speaker 2: days planning, and I literally think we were like, oh,
Speaker 2: what about this chapter? And we were like, Oh, that's
Speaker 2: the idea, Let's go do a work. And then we
Speaker 2: would come back and we'd be like, Okay, what about
Speaker 2: a chapter on this. Oh brilliant, let's go like do
Speaker 2: Like it was just the most cliche helpful thing you've
Speaker 2: ever seen, but it like was so I just think
Speaker 2: everything was kind of easy, and one of us would
Speaker 2: have an idea and we would say what about this?
Speaker 2: And there were some things actually that didn't work and
Speaker 2: we were like, cool, why don't we pull back there?
Speaker 2: And then the other one would just be like, you
Speaker 2: know what, spot on? And I don't know, I feel
Speaker 2: like maybe we just kind of have that we were
Speaker 2: just in sync the whole way through. Where is I
Speaker 2: mean we kind of have I guess two half brains
Speaker 2: and between us, we have one I don't know, I.
Speaker 3: Don't know how we has three quarters and I have.
Speaker 2: A quarter and I just but it just like we
Speaker 2: were like it was almost like bouncing ideas off ourselves,
Speaker 2: you know. And I think we were just so before, during,
Speaker 2: and after just so on in terms of that holistic
Speaker 2: kind of we want this to be all parts of
Speaker 2: the melting pot, and it just it did kind of
Speaker 2: come together in terms of what we included and how,
Speaker 2: and I think from that stage everything we kind of
Speaker 2: agreed on and it was almost maybe like ridiculously too
Speaker 2: easy and how sink we in sync?
Speaker 3: We were we kind of would you know, we'd.
Speaker 2: Come up with a chapter idea and then celebrate with
Speaker 2: the workout, and we'd come up we'd be like, oh,
Speaker 2: what about this idea for a chapter? Oh brilliant, cool,
Speaker 2: Like let's go get a smoothie. Like yeah, it was.
Speaker 2: It was overly productive on a very rapid timescale. But
Speaker 2: it was also super cliche in terms of the health retreat,
Speaker 2: you know, like we were saying just saying before, I
Speaker 2: think we have two half brains and together we are
Speaker 2: a full brain.
Speaker 1: Lovely neighborhood. Just a quick break to sing the praises
Speaker 1: of our partner in Ya this week, the amazing team
Speaker 1: at HP Australia. For my fellow business owners. We all
Speaker 1: know how stressful running a business can be, and even
Speaker 1: more so at tax time, so who has time to
Speaker 1: deal with the n ata of printer problems and running
Speaker 1: out of ink like what a buzzkill. Thankfully we don't
Speaker 1: have to deal with this problem anymore, which is save
Speaker 1: not only our business but our marriage. Working together is
Speaker 1: a fascinating journey. By pairing our HP printer out with
Speaker 1: an instant ink subscription, Honestly, printing has never been so smart.
Speaker 1: When our ink or Tona levels are getting low, a
Speaker 1: new cartridge is automatically shipped before we even need it,
Speaker 1: so you never run out. Recycling is also included. Plus
Speaker 1: you can save up to fifty percent on ink and
Speaker 1: tone it this way. It will revolutionize your business. I'll
Speaker 1: pop the link to more in the show notes and
Speaker 1: by the way, you are welcome now back to the show.
Speaker 1: You guys have done such an amazing job, particularly at
Speaker 1: writing it together, and then you know the tone of
Speaker 1: the book. You can't actually tell who's written each part
Speaker 1: except for your own anecdotal stories and one of them,
Speaker 1: which only as much as you guys are comfortable to
Speaker 1: talk about in There's a beautiful quote. You mentioned one,
Speaker 1: but there was another one that I wrote down from
Speaker 1: Alan Down's contentment is created when our behavior is consistent
Speaker 1: with our values. And I think one of the kind
Speaker 1: of common themes of this show is that happiness only
Speaker 1: really emerges for people once they start coming back into
Speaker 1: line with the things that they really love, that they're
Speaker 1: really passionate about. They stop kind of making decisions based
Speaker 1: on external definitions societal values, what they think they should do,
Speaker 1: other people's pathways, and it kind of causes illness and
Speaker 1: unhappiness when you aren't living in line with you know,
Speaker 1: who you're supposed to be. And then the real magic
Speaker 1: happens when people take big jumps in their life, often
Speaker 1: into discomfort, and become who they really are. So, Scott,
Speaker 1: you mentioned that quote in relation to you coming out
Speaker 1: recently at the age of thirty two, which is quite
Speaker 1: late relatively There is no timeline for life, but is
Speaker 1: you know, relatively late to kind of realize that yourself
Speaker 1: to have even you said that it was the first
Speaker 1: time you'd even set the sentence to yourself and I
Speaker 1: think that's a huge part of redefining sexuality, masculinity, identity
Speaker 1: all in different ways. That covers so many topics, And
Speaker 1: you really open up in this particular chapter about that.
Speaker 1: I haven't spoken to you since then, so and you
Speaker 1: wrote a beautiful editor's letter in Men's Health kind of
Speaker 1: really speaking about it for the first time. What has
Speaker 1: that been like for you in terms of in the
Speaker 1: context of that quote and finding contentment in realizing a
Speaker 1: big part of yourself that you didn't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's been a journey of which Kiaran has
Speaker 2: been along for the ride. I think it got to
Speaker 2: a point for me in twenty twenty where kind of
Speaker 2: late twenty nineteen I recognized it within myself and I
Speaker 2: was like cool, just because I'm a very kind of,
Speaker 2: like I guess, pragmatic kind of person, I was like cool.
Speaker 3: Twenty twenty news resolution, deal with that in the new year,
Speaker 3: deal with that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, to sell no to self bega this year.
Speaker 1: And knew me to a whole new level.
Speaker 3: Yeah. See again.
Speaker 2: Anyway, obviously had a lot of time, like we all
Speaker 2: did in twenty twenty for self reflection, but I think
Speaker 2: there was a point in twenty twenty where Men's Health.
Speaker 2: We got sold, and then the company that bought us
Speaker 2: shut us down on the first day that they bought us.
Speaker 3: I did not handle it very well. Things were thrown
Speaker 3: that first week.
Speaker 2: Was just because I had tied my whole personality up
Speaker 2: to my job and this world of mental health and
Speaker 2: on reflection and having time. It was kind of one
Speaker 2: of those things where I'd made that my whole identity
Speaker 2: and I hadn't actually taken on board a lot of
Speaker 2: the stuff that we were reporting on or the advice
Speaker 2: that we were giving men. So I kind of went
Speaker 2: back through kind of issues we'd worked on and kind
Speaker 2: of what we were I guess encouraging men to do.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I hadn't been really taking that advice on myself.
Speaker 2: So reconciled it. I came out to my family pretty quickly,
Speaker 2: and yeah, I guess just kind of allowed myself the
Speaker 2: space to be. The mind is a really funny thing.
Speaker 2: I had never given myself that as an option for myself. Internally,
Speaker 2: I knew I wasn't happy, but I kind of never
Speaker 2: addressed it and I never looked for a reason why,
Speaker 2: and I never let that be option. So just allowing
Speaker 2: myself the space to explore that was really healthy and healing,
Speaker 2: and I throw much less.
Speaker 3: I get thrown at me, and.
Speaker 2: I think, just you know, there's a lot of like
Speaker 2: a I don't know, it's it's fear, and it's it's
Speaker 2: a lot of it is just from yourself. And I think,
Speaker 2: you know, one of the best paces of advice that
Speaker 2: I've ever been given. And I wish I could like
Speaker 2: attribute it to someone, but it might even be Brenee Brown,
Speaker 2: but it's you know, when talking to yourself, think, you know,
Speaker 2: how would you talk to someone that you know or
Speaker 2: you care about or your friend and do you talk
Speaker 2: to yourself the same way? And that for me was
Speaker 2: a real like light change moment because I was just
Speaker 2: talking to myself like I would never even talk to
Speaker 2: my worst enemy.
Speaker 3: The way I was talking with myself.
Speaker 2: It was disgusting and why, Like I mean, I am
Speaker 2: forced to spend all day with me, so I'm as
Speaker 2: well be nice to me and make friends with myself,
Speaker 2: you know, So that really like refrained how I think.
Speaker 2: And you know, I think just approaching myself with kindness
Speaker 2: and forgiveness and allowances just really helped.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's so interesting you said that you'd
Speaker 1: never even considered it as an option, because I think
Speaker 1: one of the things that people who haven't had a
Speaker 1: similar experience would like my initial reaction is kind of like,
Speaker 1: I can't imagine such a big part of my identity
Speaker 1: being suppressed for so long, But then you saying it
Speaker 1: wasn't even suppressed, like it wasn't even there, Like I
Speaker 1: just didn't even let my brain acknowledge it. That's how
Speaker 1: deep the kind of level of your definition of who
Speaker 1: you were was impacted that you didn't even think about it,
Speaker 1: let alone think about it, acknowledge it, then suppress it.
Speaker 1: It wasn't even that far. Like that's just mind blowing
Speaker 1: to me.
Speaker 2: Brain is a powerful thing, but it can be powerful
Speaker 2: in like a negative way as well. And I kind
Speaker 2: of I still probably haven't fully unpacked that time psychologically,
Speaker 2: So when Karan is in the country, I will give
Speaker 2: him a call and because some sestions, but you know,
Speaker 2: it just it is weird, like you just I don't know.
Speaker 2: I was just able to compartmentalize that part of my life.
Speaker 2: And you know, I don't date because I'm busy, and
Speaker 2: I don't necessarily regret that decision because I've had a
Speaker 2: great career and kind of got to where where I
Speaker 2: got to, and I have loved my career. I don't
Speaker 2: know that I would have got that far if I
Speaker 2: was an openly out man. I'm just being honest. Who knows,
Speaker 2: But it all kind of worked out well. I'm happy
Speaker 2: now and yeah, and such like a I don't know,
Speaker 2: just in terms of how things came around as well.
Speaker 2: And you know, obviously no secret either in terms of
Speaker 2: you know, my sexuality and partner now and things, and
Speaker 2: you know, just amazing kind of over the last few
Speaker 2: years of us writing this book together and talking about
Speaker 2: these things and being passionate about the science and medicine
Speaker 2: of it, almost sort of us journeying through that at
Speaker 2: the same time in our personal lives as well. And
Speaker 2: obviously even if my store journey is a little different
Speaker 2: to Scotti's in terms of you know, men, women, sexuality,
Speaker 2: identity and things, but I think that process of coming
Speaker 2: to terms with them more within yourself, coming to terms
Speaker 2: with kind of other people knowing, or that process of
Speaker 2: coming out or you being more open and out there
Speaker 2: with things. It's yeah, you know, it's it's been this
Speaker 2: amazing process of kind of personal growth in journeys as
Speaker 2: the book has also grown and journeyed as well. I
Speaker 2: think I remember our publisher very early on saying, like,
Speaker 2: you guys are writing a book and writing about things
Speaker 2: for the modern man that you're both stepping into going
Speaker 2: through yourselves or representing yourselves personally, which it's far too
Speaker 2: humbling and for me because I was like, yeah it was.
Speaker 2: I just felt like a hurricane of chaos. So I
Speaker 2: don't know what I'm doing, but it was interesting. I mean,
Speaker 2: even like sexuality side. So the beginning of this year,
Speaker 2: I ended up in hospital and I had that blood
Speaker 2: like clots in my lungs. And it was interesting though,
Speaker 2: like looking back because if we you know, writing this book,
Speaker 2: it made us very aware of like how we live
Speaker 2: our lives and kind of living healthy and you know,
Speaker 2: it was a reminders to keep active every day and
Speaker 2: eat well and you know, be mindful. And it's funny
Speaker 2: looking back as we were writing that we were doing
Speaker 2: those things and I was having We've been talking about it,
Speaker 2: like the six months prior to trouble breathing, and I
Speaker 2: was like, this is really weird, but keep living your
Speaker 2: best life and like look after yourself and that sort
Speaker 2: of thing, and I feel like we were like inadvertently,
Speaker 2: I was like preventative medicine just from lessons from this book,
Speaker 2: which ultimately could have saved it from being a worse
Speaker 2: kind of situation. So, you know, sexuality, going through those
Speaker 2: journeys together physically kind of having like health issues.
Speaker 3: It really was.
Speaker 2: I mean it's so cliche that the lessons from this
Speaker 2: book really kind of have helped us as authors. Actually
Speaker 2: I've actually been a great manual for health and happiness. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And hopefully that comes across from the book, as you says,
Speaker 2: there are with the anecdotes and things that we've put in,
Speaker 2: you know, just about our personal journeys and lives and
Speaker 2: whether it's plant, that's diet, sexuality or whatever it is.
Speaker 2: I think us kind of, as you say, growing with
Speaker 2: the book and having an opportunity to put parts of
Speaker 2: ourselves in there to make it hopefully more.
Speaker 3: Real and relatable and you know, textbook like. I think
Speaker 3: that's been a beautiful part of it too.
Speaker 1: I think that comes across so strongly. And I heard
Speaker 1: someone say I can't even remember who it was again,
Speaker 1: I wish I could attribute it correctly, But someone say
Speaker 1: that you often write the book that you need. And
Speaker 1: I think it's like when I was writing my book,
Speaker 1: it's I can't explain to someone who hasn't sat down
Speaker 1: to do it how cathartic it is to actually sit
Speaker 1: down and write everything you think and know and think
Speaker 1: you know and want to know and don't know. It's
Speaker 1: like trying to body yourself in a permanent kind of record,
Speaker 1: and that teaches you so much. It teaches you where
Speaker 1: the gaps are, It teaches you where the strengths are.
Speaker 1: You realize you did know a lot of stuff where
Speaker 1: you were stronger than your thought. But it also teaches
Speaker 1: you things that you're maybe still in the process of
Speaker 1: and kind of helps you work through those to actually
Speaker 1: sort through those thoughts, to put them into a sentence
Speaker 1: that someone else could understand. And I think you can
Speaker 1: see that you guys are doing that. But it's also
Speaker 1: I just I think conversations on coming out and sexuality
Speaker 1: and any other big changes in identity can be really
Speaker 1: difficult because other people tend to make a really big
Speaker 1: deal about it because it is a big an ounce. Man,
Speaker 1: it's a big change, but other people kind of say, look,
Speaker 1: it's the least interesting thing about me, Like why is
Speaker 1: this the only thing you're focusing on? So I get
Speaker 1: the difficulty and like it's so big, but it's also
Speaker 1: like really not a big deal. But I just have
Speaker 1: to commend you both because I really think that so
Speaker 1: many people who had made it to your age or
Speaker 1: stage in life, life or careers, particularly in the area
Speaker 1: of men's health and masculinity, might not have been so
Speaker 1: brave in acknowledging it to yourselves first, but then coming
Speaker 1: out publicly with it in a way that I think
Speaker 1: helps so many and reassure so many other people, not
Speaker 1: necessarily just in sexuality, but that it's okay at any
Speaker 1: time in your life to realize something about yourself and
Speaker 1: come out with that it's actually okay. It's scary, it's
Speaker 1: a big change. You'll have a reaction from society and
Speaker 1: people and your friends and family, positive, negative, whatever it
Speaker 1: may be. But it's extraordinary that you guys have shared
Speaker 1: that so openly, I think, in a book or otherwise.
Speaker 1: And it's been really wonderful to follow both of your
Speaker 1: journeys around that because I'm sure it is inspiring a
Speaker 1: lot of other people, men and women.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Matte, And I think just as you say,
Speaker 2: I think it doesn't just have to pertain to sexuality
Speaker 2: or gender. You know, it's been us also writing little
Speaker 2: bits in the book about, you know, how we've had
Speaker 2: periods where we struggled with anxiety or mental health or loneliness,
Speaker 2: for example. And I think that as you say, that
Speaker 2: idea of knowing that, especially as a man, which has
Speaker 2: been so narrowed and pressed I think for so many
Speaker 2: decades and centuries in terms of what you show and
Speaker 2: who you are and who you aren't stepping into that
Speaker 2: ethos now of it's okay to be any of those
Speaker 2: things and to share any of those things, and to
Speaker 2: sort of step into them with kindness to yourself and vulnerability.
Speaker 3: And you know, whether it's where.
Speaker 2: You're at and your fitness journey or where you're at
Speaker 2: with your diet or not so much diet, or sexuality, relationships,
Speaker 2: mental health. I think one of the things we wanted
Speaker 2: to put across in the book was that it's okay
Speaker 2: to be at any stage that you're at with those things,
Speaker 2: and it's also okay to define yourself and your masculinity
Speaker 2: within any of those things. Wow, doesn't have to be perfect,
Speaker 2: that's for or I am definitely an exemple for that,
Speaker 2: but also like who wants perfect?
Speaker 3: Yeah, boring, boring, boring bors veil life, it.
Speaker 2: Was perfect, the book would be pretty boring or age?
Speaker 1: Have either of you just while we're sort of, you know,
Speaker 1: covering such a fresh experience for both of you, have
Speaker 1: either of you had, and also because so much of
Speaker 1: the book is about kind of letting go of fear
Speaker 1: of judgment and accepting that there will be really positive,
Speaker 1: embraceive reactions and sometimes maybe not necessarily that kind of
Speaker 1: reaction to ways that you choose to live your life.
Speaker 1: Have either of you had trouble or challenges in people's
Speaker 1: reactions since you've come out, as people's behavior towards you changed,
Speaker 1: has anything become different in a way that's challenged you,
Speaker 1: or that you might say as kind of a temperature
Speaker 1: check on men's healthy in general, that you really want
Speaker 1: to kind of acknowledge.
Speaker 3: I think not on me personally.
Speaker 2: I think I've become more aware of conversations in wider
Speaker 2: society on both sides. And I was actually thinking about
Speaker 2: this this morning, that it's kind of weird to have
Speaker 2: people dissect your life on your behalf, and I was like,
Speaker 2: especially when they're against it, And I don't know, I've always,
Speaker 2: you know, in any aspect, just kind of believed like, well,
Speaker 2: if people are happy and it's not impacting you in
Speaker 2: a negative way, it's kind of like not your business.
Speaker 1: Like you know, it's got nothing to do with you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I just think it's just funny.
Speaker 2: I mean, like you use the US as the easy example,
Speaker 2: but I guess kind of the Internet at large, there
Speaker 2: there's a very strong divide between two sides, and both
Speaker 2: sides are kind of just talking into a void and
Speaker 2: no one's actually listening. It's not a conversation. It's like
Speaker 2: a yelling man, and kind of both sides are like
Speaker 2: in the wrong in the way that they're approaching that,
Speaker 2: And you know, you might. I just think that's where
Speaker 2: this is, this kind of whole divide and divisive kind
Speaker 2: of rhetoric. It's always existed. People have different opinions, and
Speaker 2: that's beautiful about humans. If we all have the same opinions,
Speaker 2: there would be no conversations, there would be no we
Speaker 2: wouldn't be able to work on each other and kind
Speaker 2: of improve. But just the way I think we're approaching it,
Speaker 2: it's like cool, you don't agree with me like dismissed,
Speaker 2: not even listening. You know, like you can be friends
Speaker 2: with people that have different political views to you. We
Speaker 2: have to work with people that don't agree on everything
Speaker 2: with us. We're going to part of living is coming
Speaker 2: across people who are different us, and so thank god,
Speaker 2: thank God for that, and there has to be a
Speaker 2: tolerance and like, who knows, there might be aspects of
Speaker 2: that person or their opinion that resonate with you and
Speaker 2: you can grow.
Speaker 3: I don't know that that's view based. I don't have
Speaker 3: the it. When I do, I'll put them into it.
Speaker 2: And yeah, no, and same for me, like I think,
Speaker 2: you know, and it sounds so corny, but like, especially
Speaker 2: on reflection now, for me, the whole journey and things
Speaker 2: has just shown, you know, obviously some not so good
Speaker 2: sides to humanity and people's opinions and views, but for
Speaker 2: the most part, it's shown I think the just the
Speaker 2: beauty of that kind of vulnerability and connection and whether
Speaker 2: it's been family, friends, colleagues, just that just that sense
Speaker 2: of you know, support has just been especially initially.
Speaker 3: Really quite overwhelming.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think, as Scotty sort of mentioned before,
Speaker 2: I think one of the interesting things has been sort
Speaker 2: of stepping into Okay, well this is me and this
Speaker 2: is my life, and you know, for example, being a
Speaker 2: little bit more open in terms of this is my
Speaker 2: partner and having people see that on more of a
Speaker 2: public sort of social media presence type scale. It's been
Speaker 2: sort of this sense of buffering with but I'm still
Speaker 2: me and that is an important part of me. But
Speaker 2: it's as you said before, Sarah's not the only part
Speaker 2: of me. And I think a lot of people, whether
Speaker 2: it's mental health, sexuality, or whatever it is, I think
Speaker 2: some of these things you can get made to sort
Speaker 2: of feel at times.
Speaker 3: Are the all of you, and that's kind of all.
Speaker 2: Your identity is and all you want to hear feedback
Speaker 2: on and all you want to talk about. Yeah, so
Speaker 2: kind of buffering that within you know, myself, but buffering
Speaker 2: it in terms of the information we wanted to put
Speaker 2: across in the book, representing for younger men or men
Speaker 2: going through some of the same kind of things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's been an interesting part of the journey.
Speaker 1: Well, you guys have just shared so generously on you know,
Speaker 1: really how so many areas of your life have felt
Speaker 1: and how you have changed and the journey even though
Speaker 1: I hate using that word, but really it's the only
Speaker 1: appropriate word in so many of these situations. If you
Speaker 1: guys had say one thing, like if you knew that
Speaker 1: you had someone's attention for like thirty seconds to just
Speaker 1: explain what you want people to know about ment health
Speaker 1: that they don't already know, or a topic that you
Speaker 1: think is the most important for young men to be
Speaker 1: talking about or everyone to be talking about in relation to,
Speaker 1: you know, the next generation of men, and the thing
Speaker 1: that you want people to get out of the book
Speaker 1: the most, like what would it be? Is there a
Speaker 1: statistic that you came across in your research, or a
Speaker 1: concept or just something that you're sort of like, this
Speaker 1: is the essence of what I'm trying to get out there.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think as per because I ramble and
Speaker 2: I'm far too for both based on the closity twenty seconds,
Speaker 2: I just think all of the stats, you know, a
Speaker 2: lot of them are alarmingly high. But the beauty of
Speaker 2: that for me, and one of the messages is that men,
Speaker 2: no matter where you're at and what age you are,
Speaker 2: you know, men are not alone in dealing with some
Speaker 2: of these things, struggling with some of these things, feeling
Speaker 2: some of these things, body image, mental health, sexuality. You
Speaker 2: know you're not alone, so I think for me that's
Speaker 2: a big one. Also, counting down using your pinky is
Speaker 2: really hard. I don't know if you've ever tried to
Speaker 2: hold those.
Speaker 3: Two fingers up.
Speaker 1: Is that in the body section? If you can't use
Speaker 1: your pinky to count, it doesn't make you less of a.
Speaker 3: Man, actually makes you more masculine.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Scotty, what about you? Is there sort of an
Speaker 1: overarching thing that you sort of you know when you
Speaker 1: have someone's ear, the elevator pitch of like ment. Healthy
Speaker 1: is so important, This book is so important. These are
Speaker 1: the things that are challenging us. What would it be?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it would be to not be overwhelmed
Speaker 2: by all the massive information and options and opportunity out there,
Speaker 2: but rather to reframe that as a positive and that
Speaker 2: you can really take control of your own health and
Speaker 2: own masculinity and make it your own and own it. WHOA,
Speaker 2: Now I didn't want to count with my pinky again.
Speaker 3: In my remaining time, I'm going to sing the chorus
Speaker 3: to crul Summer.
Speaker 1: I think another thing as well, is you guys, having
Speaker 1: written this book, people will now approach you, and people
Speaker 1: probably already approached you both Kieran, especially being a qualified psychiatrist,
Speaker 1: and Scottie, having been at the Helm of Mental Health
Speaker 1: Community College graduate a finger counter Wow barely, but I
Speaker 1: feel like people would often come to you as the experts,
Speaker 1: like you no longer have issues in mental health. You
Speaker 1: guys are totally fine in every area. You don't have anxiety.
Speaker 1: You kind of all sort of you figured out who
Speaker 1: you are. Like, are there any areas where you guys
Speaker 1: still feel like it's your biggest challenge in mentalth Like
Speaker 1: you know, what's your biggest challenges that you still find
Speaker 1: difficult or that you still struggle with?
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's what's beautiful about health is it's
Speaker 2: kind of like a continuum. It's not something it's not
Speaker 2: kind of like a journey and you're like, cool, I
Speaker 2: am health.
Speaker 3: I made it.
Speaker 2: It's very much ongoing and it's maintenance, and you know,
Speaker 2: it's like things pop up, like I said, like with
Speaker 2: my lungs, Like I didn't expect that to be going
Speaker 2: on inside of me, but I was living in a
Speaker 2: way that I could like counteract that if it did happen.
Speaker 2: I think, especially in mental health, you know, things are
Speaker 2: going to happen in our lives that are unexpected. No
Speaker 2: one expected the pandemic, But just kind of having these
Speaker 2: tools from a manual of sorts, if you will, will
Speaker 2: really help you kind of be ready for those things
Speaker 2: to pop up. But for me, my weightness at the
Speaker 2: moment is nutrition, Like hands down. We probably even talked
Speaker 2: about that three years ago and I was like, I'm
Speaker 2: going to learn to cook this year. Nutrition for me,
Speaker 2: I'm I'm terrible with my nutrition and it's something that
Speaker 2: I really need to get on top of.
Speaker 3: Statute, I'll let you know next June. Next June when
Speaker 3: we arise again.
Speaker 1: I seriously I can't do any other episodes in June ever. Again.
Speaker 1: It has to be every year, so.
Speaker 2: Cut Sarah, No, And I think for me, I don't know,
Speaker 2: it's been it's been such a whirlwind of the last
Speaker 2: five to ten thirty five years of life, but like
Speaker 2: it's been so interesting. I think I've talked even on
Speaker 2: the podcast with you, Sarah about the younger Kieran being
Speaker 2: so perfectionistic, so polished, so driven on sort of achievement,
Speaker 2: And you know, I think medical school and being a
Speaker 2: doctor really kind of pushes.
Speaker 3: Is that in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2: So I think, you know, still leaning into the sense
Speaker 2: of vulnerability and even as a doctor, kind of stepping
Speaker 2: down off that this is the doctor, this is the patient,
Speaker 2: is a bit of.
Speaker 3: A bridge in between, you know, we you don't share
Speaker 3: your personal life, share your personal story.
Speaker 2: I think, you know, for me, that's been a beautiful
Speaker 2: part of the book as well as getting to do that,
Speaker 2: you know, And so I think.
Speaker 3: For me it's just still stepping into oka.
Speaker 2: Say, just life evolving and looking at different parts and
Speaker 2: you know, giving perfectionism the.
Speaker 1: Boot, which is I'm so hard. I mean, I'm perfect,
Speaker 1: and I don't I mean, I can't live off it,
Speaker 1: but some people need to. I mean God. Well, very
Speaker 1: last question for you, guys. I could talk to you forever,
Speaker 1: and I really like, I struggle when I love a
Speaker 1: book so much that really in the episode, I just
Speaker 1: want to read the whole book to people, like it's
Speaker 1: an audio book Welcome to the Manual anyway, But very
Speaker 1: last question for you guys, how would you at this
Speaker 1: point in your life versus maybe last time we chatted
Speaker 1: or you know, pre pandemic or whatever, what is happiness
Speaker 1: for you? Like, even something as simple as Netflix and
Speaker 1: pj's and whatever, or just a good chat with friends,
Speaker 1: like what is your happiness or what is your yay?
Speaker 2: Right now I can answer that because I'm going through
Speaker 2: this phase where I'm obsessed with Have you heard of
Speaker 2: I think it's called shinrien yoku in Japanese, but it's
Speaker 2: forest bathing, So it's obsessed. So I will like frequently,
Speaker 2: It'll be like Friday morning and I'll like jump on
Speaker 2: and get a cabin out in the woods and just
Speaker 2: spend the weekend if I have a free weekend. So basically,
Speaker 2: for I guess people listening forest bathing is spending time
Speaker 2: in nature for I guess mental health purposes, healing purposes.
Speaker 2: There's research that NASA has done to show that people
Speaker 2: recovering from surgery if they have plants in their hospital
Speaker 2: room recover faster than people without. I mean, governments have
Speaker 2: taken notice of this research. So in Canada, if you
Speaker 2: mental health, doctors, I think can prescribe National park passes
Speaker 2: as medicine, so you know, you can have a whole
Speaker 2: bunch of mental health ailments and your practitioner can prescribe
Speaker 2: you a National Parks part. In Japan, they have special
Speaker 2: walks and parks set up for forest bathing, and I
Speaker 2: just think it's brilliant, Like it's very recent in history,
Speaker 2: you know, like humans have been on this earth for
Speaker 2: millions and millions of years, and it's very recent that
Speaker 2: we've been sitting in offices, like the last fifty years
Speaker 2: that we've been sitting doing this, and so it's kind
Speaker 2: of not what we're used to anyway. I'm obsessed with that.
Speaker 2: That is how I get my a. I have one
Speaker 2: more as well, but I'll let you get first. I mean,
Speaker 2: I don't know how me saying eating is because that
Speaker 2: was incredible and I'm like, oh shit, how do I
Speaker 2: book a cabin now?
Speaker 3: But yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I think, you know, happiness for me right now so
Speaker 2: many things. But I think something that I've been just
Speaker 2: loving lately is just slowing and stopping and just you know,
Speaker 2: recognizing happiness in just those little simple even when we
Speaker 2: think about them more, look at them kind of the
Speaker 2: nal basic moments, you know. And I think for me,
Speaker 2: it's often with people that you love, and whether that's
Speaker 2: a family member, a great mate, partner, no, it's little
Speaker 2: moments like coffee in the morning with partner or just reading,
Speaker 2: you know, having a good meal.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: For me, I thinks at the moment is just those
Speaker 2: little little chances in the day to just stop and.
Speaker 1: Be grateful for I love how Japanese culture has a
Speaker 1: word for forest bathing and a word for flower gazing,
Speaker 1: Like there's an actual word for the activity of appreciating
Speaker 1: small things. And that book ikey guy about like the
Speaker 1: Joy of Living we gave each other.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Stop. It's another thing we do is we send
Speaker 3: each other.
Speaker 2: Yes, like if we're like I read this, Actually I
Speaker 2: won't see you because you won't be in the country
Speaker 2: for another six months, so I'm just going to send
Speaker 2: it to you.
Speaker 3: But read this and then we'll talk about it.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, you have like a two person book club.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So my other thing that gives me yay is doctor
Speaker 2: Kieren and his stethoscope. We were just talking about this
Speaker 2: before too, So this.
Speaker 3: Is like a joint.
Speaker 2: How many therapists have you been to that have used
Speaker 2: a stethoscope on you? But every social media post, oh
Speaker 2: may he is posing with his stethoscope. It's a prop guys,
Speaker 2: and it brings me ya. This is very offensive to
Speaker 2: the idea of mental health. Look it's mind and body,
Speaker 2: so like, I don't know how to use it, but
Speaker 2: liked it. You google doctor Kieren Kennedy. The first picture
Speaker 2: is like one with him holding ascope.
Speaker 1: It's like the stethoscope. It needs its own name.
Speaker 2: Yeah, stetho, Like oh, dusted them off to gl media.
Speaker 1: It's like, I am a doctor, a doctor. It's like
Speaker 1: you know Ross in Friends, how is appent? Was like, no,
Speaker 1: I'm a doctor, a doctor. It's like, that's what.
Speaker 2: Mean equivalent would be like if I put on like
Speaker 2: my reporter's hat and I was like, Scott Henderson, I'm
Speaker 2: gonna blow this wide.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my god. Oh you guys, this was such
Speaker 1: a delight. I'm so so excited for you both doing
Speaker 1: this together, bringing such an important and profound and just enjoyable.
Speaker 1: It was such a delightful read. So so excited for
Speaker 1: this to come out into the world. Where can we
Speaker 1: get it?
Speaker 3: We'reever all good book books asault everywhere and anywhere.
Speaker 2: I think it's Yeah, it's in like all major books stores,
Speaker 2: department stores, Big w Kmart, Target online.
Speaker 3: Ebook audiobook with our dulcet tones.
Speaker 1: You guys did the audiobook?
Speaker 2: Ye?
Speaker 3: The audio book? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Nice? I will make sure to put the links in
Speaker 1: the show notes so that everyone can grab their copy. Guys,
Speaker 1: The Manual by doctor Kieran Kennedy and Scott Henderson. It
Speaker 1: is literally a bible on modern masculinity and redefining our
Speaker 1: identity and approach to young men, old men, every man
Speaker 1: in society. And I'm so grateful for you guys for
Speaker 1: your time.
Speaker 3: Thanks Sarah, Thank you, Sarah, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: I'll see you next June.
Speaker 3: Have a good sleep.
Speaker 1: I love these guys so much. I think you can
Speaker 1: probably hear how much fun we were all having in
Speaker 1: this one. I was meant to recording person in Sydney,
Speaker 1: but sadly we didn't end up being able to make
Speaker 1: it happen. But I just enjoyed it so much and
Speaker 1: always come away from chats with these two separately and
Speaker 1: together now it turns out, with so much to reflect on.
Speaker 1: Please do grab a copy of their amazing book. I
Speaker 1: don't think there's anyone out there who couldn't benefit in
Speaker 1: some way from its depth and honesty. I've popped the
Speaker 1: link to the Manual in the show notes, and of
Speaker 1: course please show them some yeghborhood love to thank them
Speaker 1: for so generously giving us their time tagging at Scotti
Speaker 1: Hindo and at Kieran Kennedy. Don't forget to send over
Speaker 1: your this ya or that ya questions for next week's
Speaker 1: yeas of our lives as well. And I was going
Speaker 1: to mention that we had lined up our next Melbourne
Speaker 1: Yeahborhood event, but it sold out on the first day,
Speaker 1: which I was not expecting. But because of that, we
Speaker 1: are already planning more and as you know, we had
Speaker 1: the next interstate events in the background planning as well.
Speaker 1: So I'm sorry that was Paul just sighing. I mean, honestly,
Speaker 1: that dog anyway. I love how excited you guys get
Speaker 1: about in real life catch ups and I can't wait
Speaker 1: for the next one. In the meantime, I hope you're
Speaker 1: all having an amazing week and are seizing your yea
Speaker 2: Not much