1 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 2: Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and 3 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 2: waters that this podcast is recorded on just feeling only 4 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 2: down these days and I don't know why. Have you 5 00:00:23,439 --> 00:00:24,240 Speaker 2: exercised today? 6 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: No? 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 2: Did you go outside? 8 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 1: No? 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 2: Did you talk to anyone? 10 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: No? Did you eat well? No? 11 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 2: Did you lim meet your scrolling time? 12 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: No? 13 00:00:30,479 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 2: Do you make any plans? 14 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: No? 15 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 2: Did you drink enough water? 16 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: No? 17 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 2: Did you get enough sleep? 18 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 3: No? 19 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 2: Wait, yes, yes to that one. Yeah, no, it's what 20 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 2: a mystery. 21 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: For Mamma Mia. I'm your host, Ashanny Dante. Welcome to 22 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:50,200 Speaker 1: But are you happy? Because a hot girl walk quotes 23 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 1: of everything? 24 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 2: And I'm doctor Anastasia Hernus, a clinical psychologist passionate about happiness. 25 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 2: A question for you listener. Do you sometimes feel meh 26 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 2: or a bit blah? 27 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 1: Are those technical terms, Anastasia. 28 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 2: Well, not exactly, but they they are very strong indicators 29 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 2: a feeling like we're in a rut, like life has 30 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 2: gotten a bit too monotonous, too predictable, and isn't bringing 31 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:20,999 Speaker 2: us any joy. 32 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: Oh, that's stuck feeling. Honestly, it's the worst it is. 33 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 2: But it can also be a great opportunity for growth. 34 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,279 Speaker 1: Which you're going to teach us all about today, right, Yep, 35 00:01:32,679 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: let's get straight in, okay, anaesthesia, Let's start with a 36 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: little bit of orientation, because I can imagine the feeling 37 00:01:43,679 --> 00:01:45,759 Speaker 1: being stuck in a rut might be a symptom of 38 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: depression for some people, whereas for others it might just 39 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: be about being in a big life transition or navigating change. 40 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: Can you give us a bit of a framework for 41 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: how to even begin with this conversation? 42 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 2: Absolutely? So, being in a rut again, is not a 43 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 2: clinical definition or term that we would use as clinical psychologists, 44 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 2: but it's certainly something that people report feeling, and I 45 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,399 Speaker 2: guess it can mean different things for different people. So 46 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 2: in my practice with my clients, being stuck in a 47 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 2: rut can sometimes be an indicator of something like depression. 48 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 2: For other people, it might just be an indicator that 49 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 2: they don't have enough fun and spontaneity and excitement or 50 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 2: novelty happening in their life, And for other people it 51 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 2: can be a symptom of something we refer to as languishing. 52 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: What is languishing? 53 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, so languishing and flourishing are two terms that I 54 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 2: guess I want to introduce as existing on ends of 55 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 2: a spectrum. Now, some of our listeners might be familiar 56 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 2: with the concept of languishing. It did the rounds during COVID, 57 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 2: and that's actually when I first heard about this term. 58 00:02:53,640 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 2: So this idea of languishing and flourishing refer to our 59 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 2: well being. So if I start off with flourishing first, 60 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 2: So flourishing is this idea of self described subjective well being, 61 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 2: this kind of optimal level of functioning in life. I 62 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 2: feel really good subjectively. If I were to describe to 63 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 2: someone how I feel, it's overall pretty good. I have excitement, 64 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 2: I have enjoyment, I have fulfillment in my life. That's flourishing. Languishing, 65 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 2: on the other end of the spectrum, describes this state 66 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 2: of apathy, a sense of feeling unsettled, a bit restless, 67 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 2: a bit bored, kind of that sense of meh and 68 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 2: block that we were talking about at the start, and 69 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 2: maybe we kind of just don't feel like we're interested 70 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 2: in many things in life. That's languishing. So what I 71 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 2: want to highlight is that languishing is not the same 72 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 2: as having a diagnosable mental health condition like depression. So 73 00:03:55,080 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 2: languishing and depression are two different things. Someone can feel 74 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 2: like they're languishing in life, so going through life not 75 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 2: feeling particularly satisfied, feeling a bit restless and bored, but 76 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 2: that doesn't necessarily mean that they're depressed. On the flip side, 77 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 2: someone can have a diagnosed mental illness like schizophrenia, and 78 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,439 Speaker 2: they can be flourishing in life. They can be living 79 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:25,039 Speaker 2: a life that feels to them actually really quite full 80 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 2: and satisfying and happy. 81 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 1: So essentially, even if you have a mental health condition, 82 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 1: you can be flourishing. 83 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:38,280 Speaker 2: Absolutely interesting because flourishing is that self described experience of 84 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 2: how I feel in my life at this point in time. 85 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: So how do I know if I'm languishing or if 86 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: I'm depressed. 87 00:04:45,840 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 2: So depression in the sense of how we clinically define it, 88 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 2: according to the diagnostic manual, it's essentially having approximately five 89 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 2: symptoms over a two week period. Now I'll go through 90 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 2: what those symptoms are. So one of the symptoms needs 91 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 2: to be a depressed mood, so that is feeling quite low, flat, dissatisfied, hopeless, helpless. 92 00:05:10,280 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 2: Symptom is needing to feel like I have a loss 93 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 2: of interest in the activities that I'm usually quite interested in. 94 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 2: So if I usually love going out and kayaking, and 95 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 2: all of a sudden, I have no interest in going 96 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 2: out kayaking, that could be an indicator of depression. But 97 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 2: there's some others as well. So it might be that 98 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 2: there are significant weight changes for me, so I'm either 99 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 2: gaining weight or I'm losing weight. It might be that 100 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 2: I notice I have changes in my sleep patterns. I'm 101 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 2: either sleeping too much or I'm not sleeping enough. It 102 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 2: might be that I feel quite agitated and restless day 103 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 2: to day. It might be that I feel quite worthless 104 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 2: in myself. I don't feel like I have enough confidence 105 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 2: and worth in myself. And it sometimes even is for 106 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:57,840 Speaker 2: people recurrent thoughts of harming themselves or suicide. And what 107 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 2: we're looking for is at least five of those symptoms 108 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 2: to classify as a diagnosis for depression. 109 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: So then what about then with languishing, What are the 110 00:06:08,840 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: characteristics for that? 111 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 2: The characteristics for languishing would be more so around that 112 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 2: feeling of being dissatisfied, restless, uneasy, sometimes bored, but that 113 00:06:21,840 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 2: kind of like frustration that comes with boredom, so I 114 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 2: don't necessarily notice the impact in other areas of my life, 115 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 2: where my weight's changing, my sleep is changing, I feel worthless, 116 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 2: I'm having suicidal thoughts. That's not quite what we'd be 117 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 2: seeing with languishing. It's more that feeling of being like, 118 00:06:38,280 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 2: I just don't feel like I'm in the right spot 119 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 2: in life right now. 120 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: So then depression they have to show up with. They 121 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: have to have the five because if they had one 122 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: of those five, you wouldn't classify that as depression. 123 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, so if someone only had one of those symptoms, 124 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 2: we wouldn't diagnose depression. And I guess the way research 125 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 2: and the mental health world works, we have categories, so 126 00:06:59,920 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 2: we have cutoffs for everything, and that's because we need 127 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 2: some way of categorizing symptoms, diagnoses, and people. But realistically, 128 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 2: you know, if someone came in with three or four 129 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 2: of those symptoms, I would say to that person, you 130 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 2: sit in what we would refer to as a subclinical range. 131 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 2: You are showing some signs of depression, but you just 132 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 2: don't quite meet that cutoff, so it's what we refer 133 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 2: to as subclinical. So I'll give you an example of 134 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 2: someone that I worked with. We'll call him Ben. He's 135 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 2: a twenty one year old young guy. He was studying 136 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 2: at Uni. He was actually studying accounting. His father was 137 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 2: in the accounting world and had a business, and the 138 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 2: plan was for him to follow in his father's footsteps. 139 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 2: He was really gifted and skilled when it came to sports. 140 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 2: He was a long distance runner, and so from the 141 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 2: outside it kind of seems like he was ticking some boxes. 142 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 2: He was at Uni, he was studying, he was doing 143 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 2: his sports. He had a kind of trajectory going forward 144 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 2: for what some parts of his life would look like. 145 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 2: But he came to the therapy room and he was 146 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 2: just telling me, He's like, I just don't feel happy. 147 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 2: I just feel like and he actually used the words 148 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 2: rush like he was in some sort of rush, Like 149 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 2: he felt stuck, but he couldn't quite pin point what 150 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 2: the problem was. And objectively things seemed okay, but he 151 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 2: was unsatisfied. And so I worked with Ben a lot 152 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 2: around how do we kind of figure out what's causing 153 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 2: this rut and then how do we help you get 154 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 2: out of it? 155 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: So, how did you explain to Ben around being in 156 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: a right like? Why do we get stuck in ruts? 157 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 2: This has got a bit of a biological basis to it. 158 00:08:34,199 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 2: Once again, we are fundamentally creatures of habit. This goes 159 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 2: for all of us. We don't like change, right, Change 160 00:08:44,680 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 2: comes with some degree of fear, Change is risky, change 161 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 2: is new. And often what we find is that people 162 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 2: will do the same thing over and over again, even 163 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 2: if they know it's not quite good for them, because 164 00:08:58,040 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 2: we don't like change. 165 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:02,319 Speaker 1: So what's the neuroscience behind being stuck in a riot? 166 00:09:02,560 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, our brains are wired to seek out patterns. We 167 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 2: like routines because they provide us with sense of security, 168 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 2: but they also reduce the mental load. We all have 169 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 2: some degree of mental capacity and finite mental resources that 170 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 2: we can use in any one day, and so we 171 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 2: need those heuristics, those ways of being able to kind 172 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 2: of make quick decisions, those patterns and those routines because 173 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 2: they reduce the mental load. If I give you an example, 174 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 2: if every time I got in the car to drive 175 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 2: to work it was as effortful as the first time 176 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 2: I drove, that would be a really tiring day for me. 177 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 2: So over time, the more we do something with practice, 178 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 2: the easier it becomes. And we actually have a bit 179 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 2: of a saying in the neuroscience world. Neurons that fire together. 180 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 1: Wire together I've heard that one like birds. 181 00:09:53,560 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 2: Of a feather flock together. Neurons that fire together wire together. 182 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 2: So essentially what that means is the more we do something, 183 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 2: whatever that might be, drive to work, type on my laptop, 184 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 2: ride a bike, whatever it is, the more I do it, 185 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:09,839 Speaker 2: the more the neurons in my brain become strengthened. That 186 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,439 Speaker 2: parthway in the brain becomes strengthened, so it becomes quicker 187 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 2: and easier to action that. Now, that can be a 188 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 2: really helpful thing, But coming back to ruts, it can 189 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 2: also be something that keeps us stuck in a rut 190 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 2: because we get stuck in the same routine, that same 191 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:30,079 Speaker 2: pattern and routine becomes very easy for us to execute, 192 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 2: and it's harder and more effortful to do new things. 193 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 1: So I really want to ask you about dopamine. Where 194 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: does dopamine come into all of this? 195 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 2: Oh, dopamine. 196 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: I wrote a whole book on this, so I talk 197 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: for hours two about dopamine. 198 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 2: So I'm glad you asked. Dopamine is a neurotransmitter in 199 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 2: the brain. So a neurotransmitter is essentially a chemical messenger 200 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 2: that sends a message between the brain and the central 201 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 2: nervous system. Now, dopamine does a whole lot of things 202 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 2: in the brain and body that I won't get into, 203 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 2: but what I will say is dopamine is responsible for 204 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 2: the fear feeling of short term pleasure and gratification. So 205 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 2: I love a donut self disclosure, I love donuts. So 206 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 2: when I pick up a donut and bite into it 207 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 2: and it tastes delicious, dopamine is firing in my brain. 208 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 2: It's that short term feeling of like, oh, yeah, this 209 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 2: is good, right, that's dopamine. But dope meine does something 210 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 2: else very important. Dopamine also fires and activates in the 211 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 2: brain to motivate me to seek out that pleasurable thing 212 00:11:45,560 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 2: again and again and again. So when I'm sitting in 213 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 2: my office and it's three o'clock in the afternoon and 214 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 2: I go, oh, you know what would be great right now? 215 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 2: A donut, Dopamine is already firing in my brain and 216 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 2: it motivates me to get up out of my chair, 217 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 2: go downstairs, go to the cafe, buy that donut, and 218 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 2: take a bite. 219 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: So does that mean essentially people that are stuck in 220 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 1: a rut they don't have enough dopamine firing inside of them, 221 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: is that kind of what you're saying. 222 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 2: What they might not have is enough novelty and excitement 223 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 2: because the brain does like things that are new, and 224 00:12:20,680 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 2: when that's when dopamine is activated, it wants us to 225 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 2: seek out pleasurable things. But we can also build a tolerance. 226 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 2: So this is where we see things like addictions come 227 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 2: into play. I'll use video gaming as an example. Actually, 228 00:12:35,680 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 2: because Ben, the client that I spoke about, he would 229 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 2: spend a lot of time playing video games, and we 230 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 2: identified that this was one of the things keeping him 231 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 2: a bit stuck in a rut. He loved gaming and 232 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 2: it wasn't exactly something I wanted to take away from him, 233 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 2: right My advice was not to stop gaming. But what 234 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 2: happens is that we can build a tolerance in terms 235 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 2: of dopamine activation, and so something that was once quite 236 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 2: enjoyable and exciting no longer feels that enjoyable and exciting. 237 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 2: We're still drawn to it because dopamine draws us back 238 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 2: to it, but we don't get that same threat, real 239 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 2: or pleasure from it anymore. 240 00:13:12,560 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 1: So what about the other end of the spectrum, like 241 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: the adrenaline seekers that you know want to jump off 242 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: a cliff every weekend. What about them? 243 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 2: So, one of the things we find commonly through society 244 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 2: at the moment is that we are all getting smaller, 245 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 2: more frequent hits of dopamine activation and technology has a 246 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,559 Speaker 2: lot to do with this. So what some people might 247 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 2: feel the need to do is to go to those 248 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 2: extreme lengths so that they can get those big hits 249 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 2: of dopamine. They're jumping off cliffs, or they're you know, 250 00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 2: doing extreme sports, or in the case of things like addiction, 251 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 2: they're needing to use more and more of a substance 252 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 2: or a behavior to get that same feeling as they 253 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 2: once did. 254 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: So what is getting out of a rut look like? Like? 255 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: What's the goal? 256 00:13:56,560 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 2: It's balance? Ultimately, it really comes down to balance. We 257 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 2: all want and need those pleasurable moments, right. Dopamine is important. 258 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 2: It gives us that joy, that pleasure in life, and 259 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 2: I'm not here to take that away from anyone, but 260 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 2: we don't want to be just doing those pleasurable things 261 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 2: in excess. We need to be able to balance that 262 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 2: with the things that give us a greater sense of 263 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 2: meaning and purpose in life as well. 264 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: After this shortbreak, doctor Anastasia is going to teach you 265 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: the three key principles to help us get out of 266 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: a rut. Stay with us, okay, Anastasia. So we now 267 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: know the difference between being in a rut versus being depressed. 268 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: And I feel like we have a sense now of 269 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: what exactly is going on in our brains. But what 270 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: do we do now to get out of this rut? 271 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 2: When we're stuck in a rut? We want to ensure 272 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 2: that we have a balance of three different kinds of 273 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 2: activities in our day to day life. And I'm going 274 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 2: to talk to you what those three are. It's the 275 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 2: three P method, as I like to call it. 276 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: Love a good acronym. I'm here for it, yes. 277 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 2: And in fact, this is what I went through with 278 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 2: that client Ben that I mentioned earlier, who was stuck 279 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 2: in quite a rut and wanted some help feeling more 280 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 2: fulfilled and satisfied in life. So there's three many types 281 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 2: of activities that I recommend everyone has in their day 282 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 2: to day life. So this applies whether you're stuck in 283 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 2: a rut or not. We all need three different kinds 284 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 2: of activities in our life. So the first P stands 285 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 2: for pleasure. We all need things in our day to day, 286 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 2: week to week lives that are fun and enjoyable, and 287 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 2: we simply do them because we like them, So they 288 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 2: don't necessarily serve a bigger purpose other than we do 289 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 2: them because they're nice and they're fun. So these might 290 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 2: be things like going to the cinema to see a movie, 291 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 2: having a coffee with a friends, getting a massage, you know, 292 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 2: anything that's just kind of nice to do and it 293 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 2: doesn't have to fulfill that bigger picture purpose in our life. 294 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 2: So for me, I love watching reality TV. I said it, 295 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 2: there we go. I love those music shows, the Australian idols, 296 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 2: the Voice that for me, that's pleasure. I love watching that. 297 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 2: I love going to live music, I love attending gigs. 298 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 2: So for me, those are the kinds of things that 299 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 2: fulfill the pleasurable pe in my life. I don't know, Shanne, 300 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 2: if you've got things that you do simply for pleasure. 301 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: It's really interesting because when you're talking about pleasure and 302 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: giving those examples, what comes up for me because I've 303 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: been on this relationship with pleasure and being like, how 304 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: much is too much? When we're getting pleasure from external 305 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: things like should I just be you know, focusing on 306 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: gratitude or things that I can do without spending money. 307 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean? Pleasure is sometimes a 308 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 2: hard one for people to talk about, right, They're like, 309 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 2: do I deserve pleasure? Should I have pleasure? Where should 310 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 2: pleasure come from? And I want to say to people, 311 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 2: don't overthink it. Just do stuff that feels good as 312 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 2: long as it's imbalance with the other two pi's that 313 00:16:59,280 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 2: are to come. 314 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: I feel like, for me, I'm a simple kind of girl. 315 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,479 Speaker 1: I love spending time with my husband, I love my 316 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 1: morning matches, and I love spending time in nature. All right, 317 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: so we've done number on one pleasure, what's the next one? 318 00:17:13,639 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 2: So the second P stands for progress. We all need 319 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,199 Speaker 2: to do things in our days, in our weeks that 320 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 2: give us the sense that we are progressing with something 321 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 2: in life, a sense of achievement that we can sort 322 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:29,919 Speaker 2: of hold on to. So for many of us, we 323 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,439 Speaker 2: might actually get this through our work. We might feel 324 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 2: like every day I show up to work, I make 325 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 2: progress with something and then I feel pretty good about myself. 326 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 2: But it could also be other skills. So think learning 327 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 2: a musical instrument, learning a new language, and hitting a 328 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 2: streak on dur lingo, or you know, growing a garden 329 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 2: and cultivating a garden and keeping those plants alive. Anything 330 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 2: that gives us a sense of progress in life is 331 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 2: really important for our sense of self and our sense 332 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:00,199 Speaker 2: of worth. 333 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: I really like that too, because something that I've spoken 334 00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: about with one of my coaching clients, because it also 335 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 1: has to match your capacity as well, especially if you 336 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: have in a rut, so it's kind of retweaking it. 337 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 1: So for example, it's as simple as hey, you made 338 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: your bed this morning. That is progress. You know, sometimes 339 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 1: we can put these far fetched goals and then we 340 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: feel like we're constantly losing as well. So it's figuring 341 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:27,159 Speaker 1: out what that looks like, because it's going to look 342 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 1: different for everyone. 343 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 2: Absolutely, the goals need to be realistic and achievable. And 344 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 2: this is not too dissimilar to something I would do 345 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 2: with someone who did have a diagnosis of depression. It's 346 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 2: just that the sense of progress, as you say, would 347 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,640 Speaker 2: be made to be much more achievable for that person 348 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 2: in the situation that they're in. So if I come 349 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 2: back to Ben, the client I was talking about earlier, 350 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 2: he had actually he was ticking the box when it 351 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 2: came to progress right. He was at Uni. He was 352 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 2: you know, doing his assessments going through the course, and 353 00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 2: he also had his long distance running that he was 354 00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 2: very invested in and he was doing really quite well 355 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 2: at So he was ticking the box when it came 356 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 2: to a sense of progress and achievement in life. If 357 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 2: I think about my own life to play the piano. 358 00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 2: I've played the piano my whole life, and for me 359 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 2: that's been something that has given me that sense of 360 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 2: achievement and progress because every time I sit down to 361 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 2: practice or learn a new piece and I finally play 362 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 2: it through without any mistakes, that's a sense of achievement 363 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 2: for me, and it ticks that box of progressing with something. 364 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 2: Is there anything in your life, a Shanee, where you 365 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 2: feel like it ticks that box of making progress? 366 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: This is a really interesting question, and I feel like 367 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: I actually don't know because I feel like I have 368 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 1: constantly gratified myself from progress. I like the ticking the 369 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 1: box thing has always felt really good, but I've seen 370 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: the implications of that on me, like I get really 371 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: burnt out or stressed, and at the moment, I'm not sure. 372 00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 1: I'll have to get back to you. Food for thought, 373 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 1: food for thought. Okay, what's the last pe? 374 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 2: So our last piece stands for purpose. 375 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: Nice. 376 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 2: We all need to do things throughout our lives and 377 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 2: day to day, week to week that align with our 378 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 2: core values that give us a bigger sense of purpose 379 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 2: in life. It's this idea of being part of something 380 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 2: that's bigger than just ourselves. So examples of this might 381 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,959 Speaker 2: be cooking a meal for a loved one or advocating 382 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 2: for a cause that's important to us. So this sense 383 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 2: of purpose encompasses being part of something that's bigger than ourselves, 384 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 2: and it often encompasses this notion of giving. We're giving 385 00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 2: a part of ourselves to someone else or to something else. 386 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 2: So for me, I get a lot of purpose through community, 387 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 2: and that community shows up in different ways. So I 388 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 2: get it through friendship communities, I get it through my family. 389 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 2: I get it through the Greek cultural community that I'm 390 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 2: a part of. But it's really important to me to 391 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 2: show up in those spaces and be myself and give 392 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 2: something of myself to those community groups. 393 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: I love that. So did Ben have a purpose? 394 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 2: This is what Ben was struggling with. So Ben was 395 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 2: great with the progress, He didn't have a whole lot 396 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 2: of the first P pleasure, so we had to do 397 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 2: some readjusting there. But he also was really unclear on 398 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 2: what purpose meant for him. And look, he's twenty one 399 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 2: years old. I didn't expect him to kind of show 400 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 2: up in the world with a clearly defined sense of purpose. 401 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 2: And that's fine. We all go through this journey of 402 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 2: finding what our purpose is and what purpose means to us, 403 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 2: and it can mean all sorts of things. But we 404 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 2: did a lot of work that was around clarifying his values, 405 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 2: getting him to understand what he truly wanted in life, 406 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 2: not what his family told him he should want, or 407 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 2: what society told him he should want, or you know, 408 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 2: continuing to put pressure on himself to achieve in all 409 00:21:56,120 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 2: these ways where he was quite successful with his sports. 410 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 2: We had to strip it back and help him identify 411 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 2: what did he want, what was pleasurable for him in life, 412 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 2: but what was meaningful and purposeful for him as well. 413 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: I feel like even with purpose too, because it can 414 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: feel really overwhelming. You hear the word thrown around a lot, 415 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: and I can imagine, especially someone as young as Ben, 416 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: freaking out being like, I don't know, I really love 417 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: that you took that space to simplify it because it 418 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: is really that simple. And then also it's okay to 419 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: not know yet. 420 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 2: Yes, well absolutely, And these three p's serve as a framework. 421 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 2: We don't need to be ticking them all off every 422 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 2: single day, but for the most part in our life, 423 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 2: we do want to have some sense of balance with them. 424 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 2: And what we find is that when there isn't that 425 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 2: balance in place, that's when people can start to feel 426 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 2: out of sorts in some sort of way. So the 427 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 2: next step that I actually recommend to all the listeners 428 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 2: out there is sit down and do a bit of 429 00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 2: an audit of your week. Think back to last week 430 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 2: and write down for yourself, what did I do through 431 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 2: my week that fulfilled pleasure? What did I do through 432 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 2: my week that fulfilled a sense of progress? And what 433 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,679 Speaker 2: did I do through my week that fulfilled a sense 434 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 2: of purpose? And just notice if there are any bits 435 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 2: that are off balance, maybe you're doing heaps of progress 436 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 2: but not enough of the other two. And that's where 437 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:28,479 Speaker 2: we can clearly identify where we can recalibrate things, and 438 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 2: some actions and some goals that we can set for 439 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 2: ourselves that are going to help us feel overall more 440 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 2: satisfied and fulfilled and like we're flourishing in life. 441 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: And we're getting out of that rut. Yes, so you 442 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: set a sign of being in a rut? Is being 443 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: bored Is boredom always a bad thing? 444 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 2: No, Boredom is definitely not always a bad thing. Boredom 445 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 2: sometimes doesn't feel great, just like we've talked about other emotions. 446 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 2: Anxiety doesn't feel great, Guilt doesn't feel great, Boredom doesn't 447 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 2: feel great. But they serve a purpose, and boredom can 448 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:06,120 Speaker 2: be a great opportunity for other things to grow. Right. 449 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 2: Boredom is sometimes where creativity comes about. Boredom also helps 450 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:15,880 Speaker 2: us build a very necessary tool that we refer to 451 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 2: as frustration tolerance, our ability to tolerate frustration. As it 452 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 2: sounds now, this is really important, and what we're actually 453 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 2: seeing with kids is because we have so much stimulation 454 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 2: in the world nowadays, there isn't actually that much opportunity 455 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 2: to be bored and so kids who are growing up 456 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 2: are not actually developing as much that capacity to sit 457 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,360 Speaker 2: with discomfort what we refer to as that frustration tolerance. 458 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 2: I remember back in the days where I would go 459 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 2: to dinner with my parents and their friends and I 460 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 2: would sit at the dinner table and I would like 461 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 2: cut up little pieces of the napkin because I was 462 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 2: so bored, and I try and find ways to entertain myself. Nowadays, 463 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,160 Speaker 2: we have iPads and laptops and all sorts of technologies 464 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 2: and social medias that mean that we don't have as 465 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 2: much opportunity to be bored, and so people are actually 466 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 2: losing this ability to sit with uncomfortable emotions. 467 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: So it sounds like being in a rut is a 468 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: great opportunity to grow. 469 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 2: It's how we use it. If we're able to identify 470 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 2: that we're in a rut and we can take some 471 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 2: actionable steps to change that, then it absolutely can be 472 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,439 Speaker 2: a great opportunity for us to self reflect and make 473 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 2: some positive changes. 474 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: After this shortbreak, we hear from one of you our listeners, 475 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: about a challenge that you're facing and get Anastasia's advice. 476 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 3: Bib barb Bibby, I'm having a serious crisis. 477 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 2: BRB having a crisis. 478 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: Welcome back, friends, We have arrived to our BRB Having 479 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: a Crisis segment. Today we're hearing from Olivia. 480 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 3: Well, it just feels like going through the emotions log 481 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 3: in zone out countdown the hours. I can't really afford 482 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 3: to leave right now in Sydney, and I need the money. 483 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 3: The stability matters, but I won't lie. The rut is real, 484 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 3: and some days it's hard to keep pretending everything's fine 485 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 3: when I feel like really disconnected. I see things like 486 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 3: bare minimum, mondays and act your wage all over TikTok, 487 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 3: and while they make sense in theory, I'm not sure 488 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 3: if there's a solution or just a way you to 489 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 3: cope with burnout. I don't want to just check out. 490 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 3: I still want meaning, growth and a sense of progress 491 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 3: in my work because that's where I spend so much 492 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 3: time every week. 493 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 2: So I guess I'm wondering, how do. 494 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 3: You make peace with staying in a job for the 495 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 3: security while still finding small ways to still feel fulfilled 496 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 3: by your work. 497 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 2: Oh, Olivia, I hear you. It sucks to be stuck 498 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 2: in that work rut. And I guess what I really 499 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 2: hear is this tension, this kind of push pull of 500 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 2: feeling torn between that security and that stability that work gives, 501 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,679 Speaker 2: but also wanting something a little bit more and a 502 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,719 Speaker 2: bit different. For the Olivias of the world, what I 503 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 2: encourage you to do is zoom out, Zoom out and 504 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 2: take that big picture perspective on your life. Right this 505 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 2: moment is one moment in time, and being in a 506 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,919 Speaker 2: temporary rut is not necessarily a bad thing. If we 507 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 2: can identify that what we're doing right now serves some 508 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 2: bigger picture purpose that's really important to us, then a 509 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 2: temporary rut is okay. If this is a necessary stepping 510 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 2: stone for you to get to that career goal that 511 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 2: you really want, then it can be okay to feel 512 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,679 Speaker 2: a little dissatisfied now for that bigger picture goal that 513 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,919 Speaker 2: you're working towards. What we don't want is someone to 514 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 2: feel like they're temporarily dissatisfied without that bigger why. That's 515 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,640 Speaker 2: when we feel like someone is really kind of quite 516 00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 2: lost and doesn't have that light at the end of 517 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,640 Speaker 2: the tunnel that they're working towards. So I'd say, Olivia, 518 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 2: this doesn't sound sustainable unless you can give me your why. 519 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 2: What's your bigger picture why. I'd ask you to imagine 520 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:34,160 Speaker 2: yourself in ten or twenty years time, looking back right now, 521 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 2: at this moment in your life. What advice would future 522 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 2: you give current you right now? Would future you be 523 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 2: looking at you in this moment and saying you know 524 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 2: what you got this, you can get through it, just 525 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 2: like push that little bit harder and it'll all be 526 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 2: worth it at the end. Or would future you be 527 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 2: looking at you right now and say what are you doing? 528 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 2: It's not actually worth it. You know you can find 529 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 2: another job. You can find for film and elsewhere. You 530 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 2: can have a life that looks so different to what 531 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 2: your current life is. This will help you clarify and 532 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 2: get perspective on what it's all for and whether you 533 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 2: should stick with it or make a change. 534 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 1: Good luck, Olivia, We are cheering you on from the sidelines. Okay, Anathasia, 535 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: can you sum up everything we learned today? 536 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 2: Yep, can do. First Off, being in a rut can 537 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 2: feel awful. Secondly, it only takes a few small changes 538 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 2: to actually get us out of a rut. Third use 539 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 2: that three P method to get yourself out of a rut. 540 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 2: If you're feeling stuck, try to tick off doing a 541 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 2: combination of activities each week that give you a sense 542 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 2: of pleasure, a feeling of progress, and a sense of purpose. 543 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: I love the three p's. I love a good acronym, 544 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: and it's so easy to remember and generally really good 545 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 1: life advice. Next episode is one that I know so 546 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: many of us are going to benefit from. 547 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you why you keep dating the 548 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,959 Speaker 2: wrong people and exactly what to do about it. 549 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: If you have a burning question, there's a few ways 550 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: to get in touch with us. Links are in the 551 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: show notes. 552 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 2: And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't 553 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 2: a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present 554 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 2: here should always take into account your personal history. The 555 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 2: executive producer of But Are You Happy is Nama Brown. 556 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: Tarlie Blackman is our senior producer. 557 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 2: Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown. 558 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: I'm a Shiny Dante and I'm. 559 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 2: Doctor Anastasia Heronus. The names and stories of clients discussed 560 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 2: have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity. If 561 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 2: this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you, we 562 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 2: have links for more resources in the show notes around 563 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,160 Speaker 2: the topics we discussed today. You can also reach out 564 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 2: to organizations like Beyond Blue or Lifeline if you're wanting 565 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 2: more immediate support. 566 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.