Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Jesse. The Outlouders only
Speaker 2: have one question for you, and that is, did you
Speaker 2: get your KFC on Mother's Day?
Speaker 3: Look? I did. The Outlouders know that I've been vying
Speaker 3: to be an official KFC ambassador for most of my life.
Speaker 3: But on the way home from my parents' place is
Speaker 3: a KFC and every time I go past it, I
Speaker 3: get myself a little treat. And because it was Mother's Day,
Speaker 3: I was like, I'm going to get myself a large
Speaker 3: hot ships and a little drink. And I got myself
Speaker 3: my KFC and it was a great way to celebrate myself.
Speaker 3: What you may notice about that story is that I
Speaker 3: purchased my OWNKFC, and I may have some feedback about that,
Speaker 3: but I loved the outlouders who messaged me and said,
Speaker 3: just letting you know I had KFC for Mother's Day.
Speaker 3: At first I thought perhaps an unusual pairing, and then
Speaker 3: they realized that it was actually perfect.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Mama Mia. Out loud. What women
Speaker 2: are actually talking about on Monday The twelfth of May.
Speaker 2: I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm.
Speaker 3: Mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2: And if we sound a little bit different to you today,
Speaker 2: that's because we are all recording remotely. As many out
Speaker 2: louders know, we are on the road at the moment.
Speaker 2: We are in Brisbane and Sydney this week and there's
Speaker 2: a lot of stuff going on. So if we sound
Speaker 2: a little bit like we're not in studio, that's why.
Speaker 2: But on the show today it sounds like a simple question,
Speaker 2: but this year it feels like the opposite. Who is
Speaker 2: Mother's Day four? Also, one of the biggest millennial celebrities
Speaker 2: looks like he's been having a slow motion breakdown for years.
Speaker 2: After all we learned from Brittany, Should we be better
Speaker 2: at understanding what's going on with Justin Bieber? And is
Speaker 2: it okay to film at concerts? One of the coolest
Speaker 2: stars in the world says no, But first, Mia Friedman.
Speaker 1: In case you missed it, Weight Watchers has filed for bankruptcy.
Speaker 1: They filed for Chapter eleven bankruptcy in the US this
Speaker 1: month because they have a whole lot of debt. They've
Speaker 1: got like two and a half billion dollars Australian in debt.
Speaker 1: So what this means is it's a financial restructuring. It's
Speaker 1: not a liquidation. The company is going to continue operating
Speaker 1: and services are going to continue uninterrupted. They've got about
Speaker 1: three million members around the world, including in Australia, so
Speaker 1: don't panic if you are a weight Watches member. But
Speaker 1: the reason for this is that it's basically been swallowed
Speaker 1: by prescription weight loss drugs, things like a Zampik and
Speaker 1: Munjaro and Mungovi. You might remember that Oprah became a
Speaker 1: shareholder in weight Watches in exchange, I think for her endorsement.
Speaker 1: But then soon after that she said that she was
Speaker 1: on one of the golp one drugs, and I think
Speaker 1: that experience has obviously been really, really common. So they
Speaker 1: are planning to emerge from bankruptcy about forty days after
Speaker 1: they sort of restructure themselves more into a telehealth business
Speaker 1: and they will be offering prescription weight loss medications alongside
Speaker 1: their traditional programs.
Speaker 2: What do you think So that sounds like a kind
Speaker 2: of colab right. They're like, we can't necessarily compete anymore
Speaker 2: with this new technology, so we need to be part
Speaker 2: of that and that maybe they should have seen that
Speaker 2: coming a bit earlier.
Speaker 3: Yeah, every sort of weight loss company that I've seen
Speaker 3: adds for recently seems to have to acknowledge the elephant
Speaker 3: in the room, which is weight loss injections. But reading
Speaker 3: this story, it just highlighted for me how much our
Speaker 3: understanding of weight loss and dieting has evolved. I remember
Speaker 3: growing up and a lot of people's mums were doing
Speaker 3: weight watches and it was all about the point system
Speaker 3: and you could have that brownie and you could have
Speaker 3: that glass of wine, but then you might skip lunch.
Speaker 3: I'm sure that's not what Weight Watches was actually saying,
Speaker 3: but that's how some people were using that point system.
Speaker 3: And then, of course in twenty eighteen, I think Weight
Speaker 3: Watchers saw the writing on the wall and rebranded as
Speaker 3: ww because they knew that that term and even the
Speaker 3: explicit reference to weight didn't sit comfortably with women. We
Speaker 3: talk a fair bit about weight loss injections, but it's
Speaker 3: worth remembering that the success rate of diets is between
Speaker 3: one and five percent. Going on a diet did not
Speaker 3: work for people, and I do think that there is
Speaker 3: a place for companies, whether it's WWU or I've had
Speaker 3: a few other brands talk about it. Just because you're
Speaker 3: on weight loss injections doesn't mean that you're not interested
Speaker 3: in your health and making sure that you're eating the
Speaker 3: right foods and fueling your body. So I do think
Speaker 3: that there's a place for those two things to come
Speaker 3: together and to help people with health literacy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because at their best, those kind of groups are
Speaker 2: basically support groups. Right, So it seems so outdated now,
Speaker 2: but the original weight watchers people had public ways supposed
Speaker 2: to be to hold you accountable and also to give
Speaker 2: you other people to talk to about your weight. And
Speaker 2: it's so funny, as you've said, Jesse, the culture shifted
Speaker 2: on this a while ago, because now it seems really
Speaker 2: strange that you would reward the person with the lowest
Speaker 2: number in the group and everybody'd be like, go Betty
Speaker 2: and all that kind of stuff. But on the other hand,
Speaker 2: when you are trying to change something as significant as
Speaker 2: how you eat or something about your health a body,
Speaker 2: it can be really lonely. It can genuinely be really lonely,
Speaker 2: especially if you feel a level of shame attached to it,
Speaker 2: which many women do. So the idea of having this
Speaker 2: sort of community I think still has a place, but yeah,
Speaker 2: it's every rule is having to be rewritten in the
Speaker 2: face of this new medicine.
Speaker 3: It also made me think about how weight watches or
Speaker 3: WW and I think that this is a nature of
Speaker 3: diets when you're doing something like this, or when someone
Speaker 3: is on a diet, it seems to only turn up
Speaker 3: the food noise. And what these injections appear to be
Speaker 3: doing and what a lot of people who take them
Speaker 3: say is that it turns it town. I think that's
Speaker 3: really interesting. It's like the more that we talk about
Speaker 3: it and obsess over everything that goes into our mouth,
Speaker 3: the worse the problem can become, or the more all
Speaker 3: consuming it can become. So it's it's a very interesting evolution.
Speaker 1: Wait watches local business here in Australia just confirming they
Speaker 1: say they're here to stay and they will continue to
Speaker 1: operate as usual. The Australian services will not be affected
Speaker 1: by the US restructuring process.
Speaker 3: In case you missed it, Taylor Swift has been subpoenaed
Speaker 3: in the Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni case. And does
Speaker 3: that mean that we will finally be able to read
Speaker 3: all of Taylor Swift's text messages. Well, here is what happened.
Speaker 3: Baldoni's lawyer, Brian Friedman.
Speaker 1: No relation.
Speaker 3: To get the gossip, the gossip that man would have.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I think you're.
Speaker 1: Very much.
Speaker 3: I think there's a connection. I think it has the
Speaker 3: same interesting.
Speaker 1: It's bringing my name into disrepute.
Speaker 3: The subpoena was issued last week. Now reminder, a subpoena
Speaker 3: is a legal document issued by a court that compels
Speaker 3: a person to either attend a hearing or a trial.
Speaker 3: Maybe they have to give evidence or produce documents related
Speaker 3: to the case. A representative for Swift said the subpoena
Speaker 3: was purely to draw public interest and has nothing to
Speaker 3: do with focusing on the facts of the case. They added,
Speaker 3: Taylor Swift never set foot on the set of this movie.
Speaker 3: She was not involved in any casting or creative decisions.
Speaker 3: She did not score the film. She never saw an
Speaker 3: edit or made any notes on the film. She did
Speaker 3: not even see It Ends with Us until weeks after
Speaker 3: its public release, and was traveling around the globe during
Speaker 3: twenty twenty three and twenty twenty four, headlining the biggest
Speaker 3: tour in history. Now this is important because there is
Speaker 3: a theory floated by an anonymous emailer who contacted des
Speaker 3: Moi saying that the subpoena is being used strategically to
Speaker 3: basically expose Blake Lively as a liar. Now, remember Blake
Speaker 3: Lively when all those her Takes messages came out, she
Speaker 3: used Taylor Swift almost as a point of leverage in saying,
Speaker 3: I've got these dragons on my side. She used this
Speaker 3: Game of Thrones analogy, and she said that Ryan Reynolds
Speaker 3: and Taylor Swift help her creatively a lot. Basically, Baldoni's
Speaker 3: team say that she almost used Taylor Swift as a
Speaker 3: threat to suggest like, I've got all this power and
Speaker 3: I'm taking over this movie. I've got the backing of
Speaker 3: one of the most famous women in the world. And
Speaker 3: the theory goes that Baldoni's lawyers will argue that she
Speaker 3: used Taylor's name to take over the movie, when in fact,
Speaker 3: Taylor had nothing at all to do with the movie,
Speaker 3: and it basically paints Blake Lively as someone who doesn't
Speaker 3: tell the truth, which is what you want in a
Speaker 3: case like this. Maya what do you think?
Speaker 1: Ooh, shots fired by my girl Tree Payne. Tree Payne
Speaker 1: is the legendary publicist of Taylor Swift with the best
Speaker 1: name in the whole world. She's formidable and one of
Speaker 1: my Roman empires since this began. Is just how pissed
Speaker 1: Tree would be to have Taylor's name brought into this
Speaker 1: absolute shit fight between Justin Baldoni and Blake Lively. I
Speaker 1: think it's an interesting idea that this has been used
Speaker 1: to flush out Taylor in terms of they knew that
Speaker 1: by subpoena ing her, she would protest. There are a
Speaker 1: lot of people who've protested about being dragged into this
Speaker 1: and about being subpoened. Is Justin Baldoni trying to turn
Speaker 1: this into a media circus? Absolutely, But I think my
Speaker 1: understanding of this is that Blake would have probably said
Speaker 1: something to him dropping Taylor's name. He's then perceived that
Speaker 1: as her weaponizing Taylor, and so he's flipped it and said, well,
Speaker 1: game on, let's do this. And so what Taylor has done,
Speaker 1: or Tree has done on Taylor's behalf by distance seeing
Speaker 1: herself massively from Blake and from the movie is to
Speaker 1: basically say in a line that Taylor herself coined around
Speaker 1: the whole Kim Kardashi and Kane West thing is I
Speaker 1: wish to be removed from this narrative. I don't have
Speaker 1: a dog in this fight. This is not me. But
Speaker 1: by the same token, she went on to say in
Speaker 1: a later part of that statement that this is a
Speaker 1: case about sexual harassment and intimidating women, which is very
Speaker 1: much on black side. So she's not saying this is
Speaker 1: between two people, and allegedly she's drawing a line in
Speaker 1: the sound about where she stands and who she backs
Speaker 1: and what she thinks this case is about. But she's
Speaker 1: saying I'm out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's being read a lot as far as I
Speaker 2: can see, as Taylor distancing herself from Blake. But actually
Speaker 2: there's a way of reading it that's supportive, as you
Speaker 2: kind of point out me, which is that she's actually
Speaker 2: saying to Justin Baldoni, stop trying to bring me into this,
Speaker 2: like this has got nothing to do with me. I
Speaker 2: don't want to be part of it. I think the
Speaker 2: reporting which is everybody saying, oh, she's telling Blake to
Speaker 2: back off. If they're really good friends, if they've been
Speaker 2: really good friends for forever, then of course they would
Speaker 2: talk about work. Everybody does, And I think you could
Speaker 2: definitely read this as her just saying justin, don't try
Speaker 2: and drag me into it.
Speaker 3: So what do you think we'll get, because we're probably
Speaker 3: not going to get her text messages? Right, But do
Speaker 3: you see a world in which she's actually summoned to
Speaker 3: the trial or do you think that this is just
Speaker 3: a play in a game of chess to get a
Speaker 3: statement like this?
Speaker 1: So that's what the statement is designed to do. It's
Speaker 1: to basically flag this is an attention grab, this is
Speaker 1: a circus. Trying to involve Taylor is really a tactic
Speaker 1: and she's got nothing to add to this legal case.
Speaker 1: And so it's then up to the judge whether she
Speaker 1: is deposed or whether some documents are subpoened. You know,
Speaker 1: that's a call for the judge to make. It was
Speaker 1: Mother's Day in Australia yesterday and something I noticed is
Speaker 1: that things went a little bit berserk online and also
Speaker 1: on my phone. If you own a phone and you're
Speaker 1: on social media, and even if you're not, even if
Speaker 1: you just have a phone and you've got text messages,
Speaker 1: I noticed a real change this year in the amount
Speaker 1: of mental load that was required on Mother's Day. It
Speaker 1: all started as soon as I turned my phone on
Speaker 1: when I got a lot of messages in my group
Speaker 1: chats and from girlfriends and in family group chats, Happy
Speaker 1: Mother's Day to all the mothers, and lots of validation
Speaker 1: and acknowledgment of what a wonderful job we do, which
Speaker 1: seems lovely. But then I was like, oh God, do
Speaker 1: I have to reply to all these messages? Do I
Speaker 1: have to message all the mothers that I know? Which
Speaker 1: is a lot? And then I looked on social media,
Speaker 1: and it often is a frenzy on Mother's Day of
Speaker 1: women posting about their mothers, sometimes their mothers in law.
Speaker 1: Less that, but now I noticed this year a couple
Speaker 1: of different things. People were posting about themselves as mothers
Speaker 1: and thanking their children, and it just became, I don't know,
Speaker 1: it was like everybody had to do all this work
Speaker 1: to include everybody and make everybody felt included. Jesse Hoole,
Speaker 1: what was your experience yesterday?
Speaker 3: I think Mother's Day has become a very dangerous day.
Speaker 3: Dangerous is the word I would use to describe it.
Speaker 3: And it is dangerous because there is no card, there
Speaker 3: is no gift that could possibly capture the work and
Speaker 3: the sacrifice that goes into one of the most undervalued
Speaker 3: jobs that anyone ever does, and because there is so
Speaker 3: little external validation every other day of the year, I
Speaker 3: think that probably waking up on Mother's Day it feels
Speaker 3: like a trap for a lot of people, and I
Speaker 3: think that women are shouldering this burden. So I would
Speaker 3: be really interested in speaking to retail workers about who's
Speaker 3: buying the majority of Mother's Day gifts because I think
Speaker 3: daughters are acknowledging their mothers. I think the people that
Speaker 3: I got the most messages from were other mothers, as
Speaker 3: you say, Maya, saying you're doing a great job. I
Speaker 3: see you, I value what you do. And then I
Speaker 3: saw at one point I was scrolling through my Instagram
Speaker 3: feed and as you say, Mea, it was like all
Speaker 3: these mothers posting about being mothers, which I get, and
Speaker 3: I loved it, and I love seeing photos of people's families.
Speaker 3: But I thought, is this US posting because we, again
Speaker 3: we do not get any other external validation. Is this
Speaker 3: us saying I am here. I want to be seen.
Speaker 3: I want my work to be seen, and I do
Speaker 3: not feel like I am surrounded by people who see me.
Speaker 3: And Amy Girard, who's a author and radio host, posted
Speaker 3: late last night, just going glad.
Speaker 4: Mother's Days over. I did pull out a little violin
Speaker 4: for myself yesterday and rightly, so you know, I feel alive.
Speaker 4: I am very low maintenance. I really don't ask much.
Speaker 4: I don't expect gifts. I don't expect much on Mother's Day.
Speaker 4: But here's what I do expect. If you can't my load,
Speaker 4: like I mean, at the end of the day, washing
Speaker 4: still needs to get done. Kids still need to be fed. Now,
Speaker 4: if you can't lighten my load and do the washing
Speaker 4: for me, and I don't know, just help me to
Speaker 4: relax for the day, then at least be nice to me,
Speaker 4: you know.
Speaker 1: Just be nice to me.
Speaker 4: I think the saddest part is I must have gotten
Speaker 4: over two thousand replies to that story from other moms
Speaker 4: just saying feels like I've felt like a piece of
Speaker 4: today as well, Like it's one fucking day, guys, what
Speaker 4: fucking day.
Speaker 3: I think that there's a bit of an epidemic of that,
Speaker 3: if we're honest.
Speaker 2: My mother's Day, which was perfectly pleasant, is simplified by
Speaker 2: the fact that I don't have in laws here anymore
Speaker 2: with rens mom, is it with us anymore? My parents
Speaker 2: live on the other side of the world. And obviously
Speaker 2: those things are painful on Mother's Day, but they make
Speaker 2: it easier because it's only about me their house. Not
Speaker 2: that it was it was about sport and washing and
Speaker 2: all those things. But a shift that I noticed this
Speaker 2: year online was I saw more than one, in fact,
Speaker 2: many tiktoks and in sturreels from mothers saying older mothers
Speaker 2: of adult children step aside. This is not your day.
Speaker 2: It's personified by this little grab.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: The one thing I will never understand on Mother's Day
Speaker 2: is grandmothers and mothers who only want to be celebrated.
Speaker 2: But they don't want to celebrate their daughter or their
Speaker 2: daughter in law.
Speaker 4: For giving them grandbabies, but they want to be celebrated
Speaker 4: as a mother and a grandmother.
Speaker 1: It's weird.
Speaker 2: It's weird behavior. I don't know any women who would
Speaker 2: be like that, but it's clearly a common feeling because
Speaker 2: I saw another post from someone saying if you have
Speaker 2: adult children and they have children, this day is no
Speaker 2: longer about you, step aside, and I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: I thought it was still about you, Mia. Isn't Mother's
Speaker 2: Day still about you as well as about the mother
Speaker 2: of your son's child.
Speaker 1: It's funny you say that, because this mother's more than
Speaker 1: any other. I felt the politics of it all in
Speaker 1: that I wanted to see my mother in law. I
Speaker 1: wanted to see my mother. Of course, I wanted to
Speaker 1: see all of my children. But then my eldest son,
Speaker 1: he also has a mother in law and I'm his mother,
Speaker 1: but then he's also got to be the avatar for
Speaker 1: his wife, who's a mother. And it's so funny because
Speaker 1: on the day before Mother's Day, my mother in law
Speaker 1: came over with flowers for me, and she always gets
Speaker 1: her daughter and daughters in law flowers. And then I
Speaker 1: suddenly thought, oh, I should get Jesse something from Luna.
Speaker 1: And so I was like, I need to go to
Speaker 1: office works and get a like a one of those frames,
Speaker 1: and then I've got to put all the photos in it.
Speaker 1: And then I was like, I'm too tired this idea
Speaker 1: of now we've got to celebrate our children and our
Speaker 1: daughters in law and sons in law for giving us grandback,
Speaker 1: Like can I just have a of tea and some
Speaker 1: toast in bed? Like what happened to that? Yeah? Have
Speaker 1: made card a little past a bracelet. That's all I want.
Speaker 2: That's exactly what I got, because life's got too complicated
Speaker 2: over your way now.
Speaker 3: I think when the pie starts to feel too small,
Speaker 3: women turn on each other because it's like, there isn't
Speaker 3: enough pie for you to be celebrated and me to
Speaker 3: be celebrated. And as the mother of a small child,
Speaker 3: she cannot yet say to me, mummy, you are doing
Speaker 3: the best job in the whole world. You are the
Speaker 3: best mum. I need my husband to be doing that.
Speaker 3: So I think that's part of the etiquette rule, is
Speaker 3: that if you have small kids, then someone in their
Speaker 3: lives needs to do it because their child is not
Speaker 3: going to do it for them. I was reading yesterday
Speaker 3: about the story of how Mother's Day started. Have you
Speaker 3: guys heard this story.
Speaker 2: Before from the gift card company? No?
Speaker 3: No, Colleen, you cynic. You're a cynic, Hollywayen right.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 3: It was started by a woman named Anna Jarvis who
Speaker 3: decided to mark the day after losing her mum. And
Speaker 3: this was at the beginning of the twentieth century. Her mom
Speaker 3: died the year before, and she decided that it was
Speaker 3: about celebrating the invisible work that mothers do in a
Speaker 3: specific type of love, and really it was about for her,
Speaker 3: it was about a mother that she'd lost, and then
Speaker 3: she became the fiercest campaigner in the world to make
Speaker 3: it stop. She hated Mother's Day. By the time of
Speaker 3: her death, she was just like, make it stop because
Speaker 3: she was revolted by how capitalism, yes commercialized, it became.
Speaker 3: She was like, don't you dare jump on this flower companies,
Speaker 3: That's not what this is about. It was meant to
Speaker 3: be about just seeing each other. So she was the
Speaker 3: biggest lobbyist for abolishing it.
Speaker 2: In the end, I do send messages to my single
Speaker 2: mom friends on Mother's Day because the ain't nobody bringing
Speaker 2: them a cup of tea in bed. But the biggest
Speaker 2: transition I noticed in my house is when your kids
Speaker 2: are little and lunar, isn't they yet? But you've got
Speaker 2: years ahead of this, as Mia just said, pastor bracelets,
Speaker 2: twenty five tiny scrappy cards that they were forced to
Speaker 2: make a primary school, and kindy lists of things at
Speaker 2: my mom and then there's always something embarrassing like drinks,
Speaker 2: wine in the kitchen or whatever it is that you
Speaker 2: get loads of that. But then, because now both my
Speaker 2: kids are in high school, crickets not of that, So
Speaker 2: I this is what I did. I told them before
Speaker 2: the day that I still wanted that shit. I was like,
Speaker 2: I know, you don't have to go and do it,
Speaker 2: and they did to a point. So needs expressed.
Speaker 1: Gifts art my love language. But I'm strict about cards
Speaker 1: and I expect them on my birthday and on Mother's Day.
Speaker 1: Except this year, I actually decided, do you know what,
Speaker 1: because I know that my kids just get exhausted, particularly
Speaker 1: my male kids, get exhausted with the idea of writing cards.
Speaker 1: So I was like, you know what, I'm fine, I
Speaker 1: don't need it this year. And I said that in
Speaker 1: the family group chat and then they all came up with, wait,
Speaker 1: this is a trap. Yeah, this is a trap.
Speaker 3: We've played this game before and it doesn't I was like, no.
Speaker 1: No, no, it's not a test. It's not a trap.
Speaker 1: I mean it. And then the next day, two out
Speaker 1: of my three children did not fall for the trap.
Speaker 1: Not that with the chap, but I got cards from
Speaker 1: two of them and a present from one of them
Speaker 1: that I know that Jesse bought.
Speaker 2: I did.
Speaker 3: It was a lovely gift.
Speaker 2: I love it so much. Next a millennial superstar appears
Speaker 2: to be in free fall. What is going on with
Speaker 2: Justin Bieber. I've done things that have hurt others. I
Speaker 2: sometimes worry I'm going to be exposed if I tell
Speaker 2: people how selfish I am. And I've been really asking
Speaker 2: God to help me see the best in people. This
Speaker 2: is how some of the most recent posts from one
Speaker 2: of the most famous men in the world and one
Speaker 2: of the biggest millennial celebrities begin. If you follow Justin
Speaker 2: Bieber on social and many hundreds of millions of people do,
Speaker 2: you will have seen notes posts like those popping up
Speaker 2: a lot on his feed lately, alongside blurry shots of
Speaker 2: him dancing, eyes hardly open, clouds of smoke, pictures being
Speaker 2: uploaded and taken down, many repeated shots of his golf
Speaker 2: swing not sure what that's about, and plenty of picks
Speaker 2: of his mates hanging around watching hockey and making sort
Speaker 2: of repetitive soundless motions. If you're watching any of the
Speaker 2: celebrity gossip sites, you're seeing a whole lot more Biber
Speaker 2: clashing with paparazzi, Biber clearly out of it at Coachella,
Speaker 2: and you're probably reading headlines about his involvement as a
Speaker 2: child with p Diddy, who is about to be at
Speaker 2: the center of a massive sexual assault trafficking court case.
Speaker 2: You're hearing about legal clashes with his former management and
Speaker 2: losing money on a canceled tour, and new music is
Speaker 2: very hard to find. And after those posts that I
Speaker 2: read out at the beginning today, which were the beginnings
Speaker 2: of these sort of very introspective, very sad kind of reflections,
Speaker 2: you're seeing a whole fresh round of fears for Bieber
Speaker 2: headlines Jesse. We have seen millennial celebrities in personal freefall
Speaker 2: on social media before, most notably, of course, Britney Spears.
Speaker 2: What are you feeling about what's going on with Justin ba.
Speaker 3: I think we've all had the experience of being on
Speaker 3: social media and seeing someone that we're close to post
Speaker 3: things that are unusual, that are out of character, that
Speaker 3: might seem to be a call for help. When that
Speaker 3: content is being posted by someone who is one of
Speaker 3: the most followed people in the world on Instagram, that
Speaker 3: becomes very unusual and an interesting thing for us to
Speaker 3: grapple with. I think Justin Bieber he was discovered on
Speaker 3: YouTube when he was twelve. He is now thirty one.
Speaker 3: He has been famous for eighteen years, right, He in
Speaker 3: fact was discovered in his career launched in the same
Speaker 3: year that Britney Spears attacked that car with an umbrella.
Speaker 3: And I think that there is something almost serendipitous about
Speaker 3: that crossover because we have seen, you know, whether it's
Speaker 3: mental health issues or the price of fame. We've been
Speaker 3: discussing this since Judy Garland, Like this isn't entirely new
Speaker 3: to our age, but we now see the cracks start
Speaker 3: to show in real time via social media, and it's
Speaker 3: really difficult because people can talk about sort of concern
Speaker 3: trolling or pretending like you're concerned. But I was a
Speaker 3: massive fan of Justin Bieber in those early days and
Speaker 3: I really liked his music and to see the unusual
Speaker 3: content that he's posting, because it can be kind of
Speaker 3: hard to miss. Sometimes it's posted and then it's removed.
Speaker 3: He will be half dressed, he'll kind of have his
Speaker 3: arm in one side of his jumper. And then I think,
Speaker 3: in particular the clips from Coachella most recently, where he
Speaker 3: is clearly smoking weed and in one he's beside his
Speaker 3: fifteen year old brother and it appears that Hailey Bieber
Speaker 3: moves the brother out of the way. She seems to
Speaker 3: be the one in all of those videos that are
Speaker 3: often taken from fan or just people walking past who's
Speaker 3: trying to keep the illusion that everything is okay. But
Speaker 3: even from his posture to his facial expressions, he looks
Speaker 3: like he's under the influence of something and like he's
Speaker 3: not thriving. And there was a quote by an author
Speaker 3: who wrote a book most recently about Britney Spears, who
Speaker 3: said his name is Jeff Weiss, and he said that
Speaker 3: Justin bieber at this stage of his life will have
Speaker 3: basically never had an honest interaction with anyone because of
Speaker 3: how early he found fame and how all of the
Speaker 3: people around him have tried to leach off him. He's
Speaker 3: fallen out with record labels and now he's independent, and
Speaker 3: those people are actually saying he removes himself from anyone
Speaker 3: who says no to him. I just don't know how
Speaker 3: you navigate this and come out the other end as
Speaker 3: a balanced, healthy person with your ego in check.
Speaker 1: Beyonce, did It's possible Justin Timberlake much did?
Speaker 3: He's had his own issues justin Timia, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Of course, but not like this complete public immolation. I
Speaker 1: think what's interesting is the we have to be sort
Speaker 1: of euphemistic when we talk about mental health issues often,
Speaker 1: and what about substance abuse, what about addiction? And I
Speaker 1: know that those things can be blurry.
Speaker 3: I think that substance abuse and addiction are so inextricably
Speaker 3: tied to mental health issues, right.
Speaker 2: Yes, But you know you were saying about stimisms, the
Speaker 2: euphemisms in the mainstream media in inverted commas, the euphemisms
Speaker 2: around what's going on with Justin Bieber. I feel like
Speaker 2: the mainstream media is treating him with kid gloves in
Speaker 2: a way. The commentary about what he was like at Coachella,
Speaker 2: just saying things like he was seen smoking around his brother.
Speaker 2: If you see those videos, this is not a guy
Speaker 2: who's just had a joint in a beer. He is
Speaker 2: barely conscious. And I think all the time, if that
Speaker 2: was Hailey Bieber, who has they have a ten month
Speaker 2: old baby, I think behaving like that in a public place,
Speaker 2: can you imagine the headlines? But Mia, to your point
Speaker 2: about the big stars like Beyonce and just In Timberlake.
Speaker 2: You can't turn Fame off, but you could turn Instagram off,
Speaker 2: couldn't you Like if you're just in Bieber. Do you
Speaker 2: think there's a way that he could retreat from this
Speaker 2: scrutiny and reality?
Speaker 1: I mean, of course there is, but I mean we
Speaker 1: even saw it with Britney Spears. You're talking about a
Speaker 1: generation who that's their only ability to have direct contact
Speaker 1: with the world and with their audience. Everything else is
Speaker 1: what's written about them, or what's said about them, or
Speaker 1: the photos that are taken off them and videos by
Speaker 1: perhaps And you know, there's so many layers to the
Speaker 1: Couchella vision, isn't there because Hailey Bieber was there, And
Speaker 1: not that we want to make a woman responsible for
Speaker 1: the actions of her partner, but the decision to allow
Speaker 1: him to be in public in that way whenevery's got
Speaker 1: their phones out, you know, it's just so sad and
Speaker 1: it speaks to the struggle that must go on behind
Speaker 1: the scenes for her, you know. And he's a new father.
Speaker 1: That's the other thing. As you said, Ohole, that's just
Speaker 1: so heartbreaking, and people don't seem to take into account.
Speaker 1: I mean, people would be calling child services if that
Speaker 1: was Hailey Biber, wouldn't they and expressing fear for the child,
Speaker 1: But no one even mentions that he's a dad.
Speaker 3: And by contrast, Hailey Bieber is so controlled, so together,
Speaker 3: so standing up straight, never appears to be under the
Speaker 3: influence of anything. And I reject what you say about
Speaker 3: letting him out in public. I think that we even
Speaker 3: saw this with Britney Spears, Like just because you're having
Speaker 3: some struggles doesn't mean that you don't have agency that
Speaker 3: you have the right to assert like.
Speaker 1: Oh, I would say that he should not be in
Speaker 1: public like that. There's just absolutely no way, there isn't
Speaker 1: no one could argue that was a good decision for him.
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that she has the power. She's
Speaker 1: not his guardian. She can't constrain him. There is no
Speaker 1: conservativeship over him, and there is never any prospect of
Speaker 1: that even being raised after what happened with Brittany. Back
Speaker 1: to your point about Instagram, I think that you're talking
Speaker 1: about a generation of stars, that and generation of people
Speaker 1: not just stars, where Instagram and their connection to social
Speaker 1: media is so intrinsic to who they are and their
Speaker 1: identity that taking that away from them is almost a
Speaker 1: breach of their human rights, Like according to.
Speaker 2: Them, do you think that we've got a lot better
Speaker 2: understanding how to talk about this stuff. You know a
Speaker 2: lot of one of the reasons I think I said
Speaker 2: before that I think a lot of the coverage of
Speaker 2: Biba is sympathetic, and probably rightly so, because we do
Speaker 2: understand the toll of child stardom. We do understand that
Speaker 2: clearly he was in some very unhealthy situations. I mean
Speaker 2: the P Diddy stuff for starters, But he's talked himself
Speaker 2: about mental health, about drug abuse, about physical health. We're
Speaker 2: much more literate. I think we've moved on from the
Speaker 2: place where we used to just be but you've got
Speaker 2: everything well happy, Like I think we're out of that.
Speaker 2: But now what do we do? And when I say,
Speaker 2: I mean maybe we don't do anything, but I mean
Speaker 2: watching somebody disintegrate like this in public while generally professing
Speaker 2: that everything's okay. Like one of the only link on
Speaker 2: Justin Bieber's Instagram that he sends you to is one
Speaker 2: for a prayer app for example, right generally sort of
Speaker 2: suggesting that everything's okay. What should people do?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 2: Is it the kindest thing to turn away? Is it
Speaker 2: the kindest thing to engage?
Speaker 3: That's a very good point that you've made about the
Speaker 3: p Diddy element, because there's a lot that we don't know,
Speaker 3: but we know that Justin Bieber as a young man
Speaker 3: had close proximity to P Diddy, who is now Obviously
Speaker 3: there are a lot of allegations against him and the
Speaker 3: parties that he.
Speaker 2: Had to Just add to that, Jesse is some people
Speaker 2: have been not necessarily suggesting any direct abuse, but saying
Speaker 2: that from a very young age moving in that circle,
Speaker 2: he was introduced to lots of very inappropriate situations at
Speaker 2: a time in life when he was not able to
Speaker 2: cope with and drugs are included in that. Of course,
Speaker 2: it is.
Speaker 3: As though a lot of people are waiting for the
Speaker 3: Britney Spears moment, or are waiting for the moment when do.
Speaker 1: You mean the umbrella moment? I mean we're watching it
Speaker 1: in real time surely.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And people who know addicts or people who struggle with
Speaker 3: severe mental health issues will relate to this that it's
Speaker 3: like when will the moment come and what will the
Speaker 3: moment look like? Because there are other parts of it
Speaker 3: where Justin Bieber recently was approached by paparazzi and people
Speaker 3: are sharing this video saying, oh, he doesn't seem all right,
Speaker 3: but He basically looked at the paparazzi and said, money, money, money,
Speaker 3: that's all you care about. You don't care about humanity.
Speaker 3: I thought, that's totally coherent and makes sense to me.
Speaker 3: He's been frustrated by the paparazzi for most of his life.
Speaker 3: But he also in an interview a few years ago,
Speaker 3: he was talking about Billie Eilish and he became really
Speaker 3: teary in it and said, I just want to protect her.
Speaker 3: It was hard for me being that young and being
Speaker 3: in the industry and not knowing where to turn and
Speaker 3: everyone telling me they loved me and turning their back
Speaker 3: on you in a secon There's this theory about fame
Speaker 3: that for the people who are plucked out of obscurity.
Speaker 3: Britney Spears and Justin Bieber are two of the best
Speaker 3: examples of this, whose families did not have a lot
Speaker 3: of resources, who had no experience with fame, who were
Speaker 3: thrust into the limelight overnight, did not have the infrastructure
Speaker 3: to deal with any of this, and in fact, with
Speaker 3: a lot of the criticism about the NEPO babies, even
Speaker 3: Hailey Bieber, she had some context, like she had people
Speaker 3: in her family who understood how we deal with this,
Speaker 3: maybe had contacts with the right people, knew when to
Speaker 3: turn comments off and when not to post in all
Speaker 3: of this, and it's like Bieber never inherited that knowledge,
Speaker 3: and they're the people I probably worry about the most.
Speaker 1: For those not familiar with Hailey Bieber, of course, she
Speaker 1: was Hailey Baldwin. She is the niece of Alec Baldwin
Speaker 1: and the daughter of one of his brothers, whose nac
Speaker 1: dary I get all the Baldwines a bit confused. But
Speaker 1: she is also an incredible beauty entrepreneur. She's got a
Speaker 1: beauty business called Road which is apparently set to be
Speaker 1: sold for you know, billions of dollars potentially coming up.
Speaker 1: And you're right, she's always the absolute antithesis of him
Speaker 1: in how she holds herself together publicly, and you know,
Speaker 1: has quite a mask in public which you can really
Speaker 1: really understand. But you know, it wasn't long ago that
Speaker 1: we lost lie in pain right from one direction, and
Speaker 1: everything that was going on there that we didn't see
Speaker 1: play out in real time. If you didn't know him,
Speaker 1: looking at his Instagram and you know, even the paparazzi shots,
Speaker 1: you would not have known what was going on behind
Speaker 1: the scenes. It doesn't look like a good industry to
Speaker 1: get involved in if you're a kid, does it no?
Speaker 2: And it also looks like fame is one of those
Speaker 2: things that even though we've heard this story, as you
Speaker 2: made the point at the beginning, Jesse with Judy Garland,
Speaker 2: even though we've heard this story over and over again,
Speaker 2: it's something that people desperately want and desperately chase, even
Speaker 2: though they know it's desperately bad for them.
Speaker 3: After the break, the high profile artist who had some
Speaker 3: feedback for his audience at a recent concert, We will
Speaker 3: tell you more.
Speaker 1: In a moment.
Speaker 2: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link
Speaker 2: at the show notes to get us in your ears
Speaker 2: five days a week. And a huge thank you to
Speaker 2: all our current subscribers into mine.
Speaker 3: All Nick cave Write a musician an actor wants you
Speaker 3: to put your goddamn phone away at concerts. Earlier this month,
Speaker 3: the sixty seven year old was performing in the US
Speaker 3: when he knocked a phone out of a fan's hand
Speaker 3: in frustration. There are reports that he has been frequently
Speaker 3: imploring fans to put away their phones during performances on
Speaker 3: this tour and instead try to connect with the music.
Speaker 3: Cave is not the only artist who has had enough
Speaker 3: with the phones. Randy Blythe, who is the lead singer
Speaker 3: of a heavy metal band called Lamb of God, said
Speaker 3: in a podcast interview last year, this is a quote.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna set it down in the middle of the
Speaker 3: stage after a song or two, and then I'm going
Speaker 3: to turn on my phone and I'm going to point
Speaker 3: it at the audience and I'm going to sit there
Speaker 3: and I'm going to sing a whole song. I'm not
Speaker 3: gonna move. I'm going to do what they do. And
Speaker 3: then at the end, I'm going to say, did you
Speaker 3: people enjoy that?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 3: I didn't either, So why don't we be here together?
Speaker 3: Put your frickin' phone down. I had never considered before
Speaker 3: what the experience of everyone watching a concert through their
Speaker 3: phones would be like for the actual performer you perform,
Speaker 3: especially like a Nick Cave who is a certified artiste,
Speaker 3: because you want to connect and you want to see faces,
Speaker 3: and instead they're being confronted with thousands of screens. Holly,
Speaker 3: do you reckon that? Everyone should just put their phone down.
Speaker 3: Isn't that simple.
Speaker 2: I think everybody should put their phone down, not necessarily
Speaker 2: because of the sense of artists, but because most of us.
Speaker 2: Unless you're in the front row at a concert and
Speaker 2: you get amazing footage that you can share with the
Speaker 2: world and they all go, wow, that's what it's like
Speaker 2: being front row. Taylors with what you actually get at
Speaker 2: most concerts that you spent your whole night filming is
Speaker 2: like a couple of blurry dots in the background and
Speaker 2: your terrible voice really really loudly screaming the lyrics to
Speaker 2: your favorite song, and then you're looking back and you're like,
Speaker 2: why did I film that? I Am never going to
Speaker 2: look at that ever again. So yes, I do. But
Speaker 2: some artists do band phones, right, so Alicia Keys, Jack White,
Speaker 2: they've banned phones before. I've been a big performance. It's
Speaker 2: not concerts true before where you have to put your
Speaker 2: phone in a yonder pouch like one of those fum
Speaker 2: black bags. And I think if you're powerful enough you
Speaker 2: can do that. It's very expensive to do that, but
Speaker 2: then it comes with a downside because don't you want
Speaker 2: everyone to see how good you are in concert? Mia,
Speaker 2: what do you think.
Speaker 1: I think that when we film at concerts, it's actually
Speaker 1: not about the person we're filming, but it's about us
Speaker 1: and our identity. Because, first of all, one thing that
Speaker 1: the iPhone and smartphones have given us is this obsession
Speaker 1: with documenting everything. But the reason we document it is
Speaker 1: around identity and wanting other people to understand us. So
Speaker 1: it's not so much about you know. Megan Michael on
Speaker 1: the weekend posted shots and video of her and Harry
Speaker 1: at the Beyonce concert with some friends.
Speaker 2: Did she me or I missed that? I know, you
Speaker 2: know I missed that.
Speaker 1: I actually love that she's posting this kind of content. Now.
Speaker 1: I think it's exactly the kind of content that she
Speaker 1: should be posting. But it's not just actually about Beyonce,
Speaker 1: because as you say, oh, I couldn't see Beyonce, I
Speaker 1: couldn't really see anything. I could just see her and Harry.
Speaker 1: So I'm not singling her out for this. This is
Speaker 1: what we all tend to do. I did the exact
Speaker 1: same thing when I went to see Taylor Swift. I
Speaker 1: wanted to say, I am a person who goes and
Speaker 1: sees Taylor Swift, and I like Taylor Swift, and it
Speaker 1: was about what that's about me more than the tailor
Speaker 1: of it all. But from an artist's point of view,
Speaker 1: I also think you're playing for an audience who've paid
Speaker 1: money to see you there, right, So the people in
Speaker 1: that audience probably like you if they've spent, in most
Speaker 1: cases hundreds of dollars to come and see you. But
Speaker 1: as soon as they film something and put it online
Speaker 1: to people who aren't invested in you in any way,
Speaker 1: who paid no money to see you, who weren't there,
Speaker 1: who didn't see the whole thing, suddenly that footage can
Speaker 1: become weaponized. And we've really seen that with Katy Perry recently.
Speaker 1: With Taylor Swift, it was different. There was lots of
Speaker 1: stuff posted, and her fans really enjoyed watching the concerts
Speaker 1: in other places and it was a sort of a
Speaker 1: sense of community. It wasn't weaponized and used to humiliate
Speaker 1: her or make a point about her, But with Katy
Speaker 1: Perry it was. And immediately you kind of breached the
Speaker 1: intimacy of a concert. Even if there's tens of thousands
Speaker 1: of people that are there, they're all in this contract
Speaker 1: with the performer that they really liked the performer. So
Speaker 1: it's a self selected audience, but the Internet turns it
Speaker 1: into something else.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you strip it of all context, but there's a
Speaker 3: propensity as well. And I am guilty of this as
Speaker 3: much as anyone. That you have certain moments in life
Speaker 3: where you think, I want everyone to feel what I
Speaker 3: feel right now, and our impulse to capture that feeling
Speaker 3: is to get our phone out. And it's always funny
Speaker 3: because someone gets their phone out and takes a video
Speaker 3: and no one can feel what you've felt in that
Speaker 3: moment because they weren't in the room with you. In
Speaker 3: saying that, Luca recently went and saw Hans Zimmer, who
Speaker 3: is this incredible musician, and he came home and just said,
Speaker 3: that was a spiritual experience. It was amazing. I loved it,
Speaker 3: loved it, and it was a shame that I missed it.
Speaker 3: I couldn't experience it with him. And we've been watching
Speaker 3: tiktoks of it, and in fact I can feel it
Speaker 3: a little bit. He did a lot of the music
Speaker 3: behind The Lion King, and so seeing him do that
Speaker 3: live and Interstellar and all of these incredible. It's an
Speaker 3: orchestra on stage. Firstly, Luca can then show me what
Speaker 3: he saw. And secondly, it is the best free publicity
Speaker 3: any artist could ever hope for, because then that goes
Speaker 3: viral and then you sell tickets, which is another reason.
Speaker 3: I think probably a lot of artists are not saying
Speaker 3: lock your phones away.
Speaker 2: I think it should be up to them, though, don't
Speaker 2: you like? I feel like if Nick cave like he
Speaker 2: also at his shows in Lady Years, he also talks
Speaker 2: a lot. He shares a lot about grief. It's one
Speaker 2: of the things that's part of his show and is
Speaker 2: sort of part talking, part music. And as you say, Jesse,
Speaker 2: the idea of him doing that to just a wall
Speaker 2: of screens, it would entirely change the experience. So I
Speaker 2: sort of feel like the artist has every right to
Speaker 2: tell you not to do it if they don't want
Speaker 2: you to, don't you.
Speaker 3: I reckon, it's got to be the policy. I mean,
Speaker 3: you can have a policy that's put phones away. But
Speaker 3: humans are, by nature we copy each other. So I've
Speaker 3: been in situations where everyone has their phone out and
Speaker 3: I go, oh, I guess we're filming this, and then
Speaker 3: I kind of get my phone out and do the
Speaker 3: same thing, which is what an audience will do. I
Speaker 3: was looking at this story though, and for Nick Cave
Speaker 3: to have knocked a phone out of someone's hand, they
Speaker 3: must be pretty close, like to have.
Speaker 2: Someone down arena shows. These are theaters.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there is something intimate about that. There was footage
Speaker 3: of him about six months ago saying film me, now
Speaker 3: you've got your phones out, and then all of you
Speaker 3: put your fucking phones away. Now the irony of that
Speaker 3: is it guess how I know that happened. Someone filmed
Speaker 3: it and put it on the internet. So everything you
Speaker 3: say this has happened with Australian artists where they've gone
Speaker 3: to make a point about a political issue on stage
Speaker 3: that makes sense within context, that starts with one thing,
Speaker 3: it ends with another thing, and you cut the fifteen
Speaker 3: seconds and then that goes viral and then they get
Speaker 3: canceled for something that wasn't all within context. I've felt
Speaker 3: that at our live shows, where I've thought, oh, if
Speaker 3: someone just filmed that twenty seconds, that would not be
Speaker 3: very flattering, and it can make you feel unsafe and
Speaker 3: make for a much worse show. If you don't want phones,
Speaker 3: you probably just have to make it the policy and
Speaker 3: say all phones away.
Speaker 2: I don't think you can have both I agree.
Speaker 1: Phones are the new autographs. Selfies of the new autographs.
Speaker 1: It's like I was there. I had this proximity to
Speaker 1: this person irl ironically not through a screen or you know,
Speaker 1: through a speaker, but I was actually there. But something
Speaker 1: that is not helpful to do if this happened to me.
Speaker 1: A couple of weeks ago, I had a friend who
Speaker 1: went to this concert, loved it, came back and wanted
Speaker 1: to play everybody this clip from the concert. And I
Speaker 1: was like, if I wanted to watch this person, I
Speaker 1: would have gone to the concert. Like, I'm not that interested.
Speaker 1: But then when someone hands you their phone and says,
Speaker 1: watch this, you're a bit stuck.
Speaker 3: There's another artist as well who has said you would
Speaker 3: not believe how awkward it is. I don't know if
Speaker 3: you've seen this online, but people at a concert and
Speaker 3: they're not filming the performer, they're filming themselves.
Speaker 2: Happened a lot of Taylor.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Taylor, that's constant.
Speaker 2: I feel like there should be a window. I feel
Speaker 2: like there should be a window that is allowed where
Speaker 2: you go. Right, I'm about what's like we're about to
Speaker 2: do shake it off or whatever we're about to do.
Speaker 2: Everybody go Ham with your phones, but then come back
Speaker 2: to us, because it does take you far away. And
Speaker 2: I drove a whole car of teenagers back from a
Speaker 2: concert recently and had to, to your point, Mia, listen
Speaker 2: to their entire concert with again them screaming really loudly
Speaker 2: at the top of their voice, and I know what
Speaker 2: hell is now?
Speaker 1: What They've playing their videos in the car.
Speaker 2: Because they were just choosing which bits they were going
Speaker 2: to post and their sharing with each other, and it
Speaker 2: was very much the thing.
Speaker 3: And it's just them just going aha at the top
Speaker 3: of their voices, this artist said. He said, there is
Speaker 3: nothing more awkward than watching someone film themselves. Listening to me,
Speaker 3: it is the most It is no longer a connecting experience.
Speaker 3: It is a bizarrely isolated one.
Speaker 1: Out Louders, We'll be seeing you in Brisbane on Wednesday
Speaker 1: this week and in Sydney on Saturday. What's going to happen?
Speaker 1: Will you film us? We'll wholly knock your phone out
Speaker 1: of your hand. Might Jesse flash you? Unlikely, but could happen.
Speaker 2: A massive thank you out Louders for being with us
Speaker 2: today on Monday's show, and to our fabulous team for
Speaker 2: putting the show together a higher degree of difficulty when
Speaker 2: we are all in different places. We are going to
Speaker 2: be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 3: Bye bye bye.
Speaker 1: Shout out to any Muma Miya subscribers listening. If you
Speaker 1: love the show and want to support us as well,
Speaker 1: subscribing to mom and Miya is the very best way
Speaker 1: to do so. There is a link in the episode
Speaker 1: description