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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Jesse. The Outlouders only

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Speaker 2: have one question for you, and that is, did you

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Speaker 2: get your KFC on Mother's Day?

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Speaker 3: Look? I did. The Outlouders know that I've been vying

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Speaker 3: to be an official KFC ambassador for most of my life.

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Speaker 3: But on the way home from my parents' place is

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Speaker 3: a KFC and every time I go past it, I

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Speaker 3: get myself a little treat. And because it was Mother's Day,

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Speaker 3: I was like, I'm going to get myself a large

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Speaker 3: hot ships and a little drink. And I got myself

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Speaker 3: my KFC and it was a great way to celebrate myself.

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Speaker 3: What you may notice about that story is that I

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Speaker 3: purchased my OWNKFC, and I may have some feedback about that,

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Speaker 3: but I loved the outlouders who messaged me and said,

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Speaker 3: just letting you know I had KFC for Mother's Day.

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Speaker 3: At first I thought perhaps an unusual pairing, and then

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Speaker 3: they realized that it was actually perfect.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Mama Mia. Out loud. What women

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Speaker 2: are actually talking about on Monday The twelfth of May.

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Speaker 2: I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm.

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Speaker 3: Mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 2: And if we sound a little bit different to you today,

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Speaker 2: that's because we are all recording remotely. As many out

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Speaker 2: louders know, we are on the road at the moment.

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Speaker 2: We are in Brisbane and Sydney this week and there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of stuff going on. So if we sound

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Speaker 2: a little bit like we're not in studio, that's why.

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Speaker 2: But on the show today it sounds like a simple question,

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Speaker 2: but this year it feels like the opposite. Who is

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Speaker 2: Mother's Day four? Also, one of the biggest millennial celebrities

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Speaker 2: looks like he's been having a slow motion breakdown for years.

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Speaker 2: After all we learned from Brittany, Should we be better

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Speaker 2: at understanding what's going on with Justin Bieber? And is

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Speaker 2: it okay to film at concerts? One of the coolest

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Speaker 2: stars in the world says no, But first, Mia Friedman.

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Speaker 1: In case you missed it, Weight Watchers has filed for bankruptcy.

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Speaker 1: They filed for Chapter eleven bankruptcy in the US this

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Speaker 1: month because they have a whole lot of debt. They've

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Speaker 1: got like two and a half billion dollars Australian in debt.

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Speaker 1: So what this means is it's a financial restructuring. It's

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Speaker 1: not a liquidation. The company is going to continue operating

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Speaker 1: and services are going to continue uninterrupted. They've got about

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Speaker 1: three million members around the world, including in Australia, so

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Speaker 1: don't panic if you are a weight Watches member. But

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Speaker 1: the reason for this is that it's basically been swallowed

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Speaker 1: by prescription weight loss drugs, things like a Zampik and

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Speaker 1: Munjaro and Mungovi. You might remember that Oprah became a

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Speaker 1: shareholder in weight Watches in exchange, I think for her endorsement.

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Speaker 1: But then soon after that she said that she was

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Speaker 1: on one of the golp one drugs, and I think

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Speaker 1: that experience has obviously been really, really common. So they

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Speaker 1: are planning to emerge from bankruptcy about forty days after

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Speaker 1: they sort of restructure themselves more into a telehealth business

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Speaker 1: and they will be offering prescription weight loss medications alongside

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Speaker 1: their traditional programs.

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Speaker 2: What do you think So that sounds like a kind

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Speaker 2: of colab right. They're like, we can't necessarily compete anymore

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Speaker 2: with this new technology, so we need to be part

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Speaker 2: of that and that maybe they should have seen that

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Speaker 2: coming a bit earlier.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, every sort of weight loss company that I've seen

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Speaker 3: adds for recently seems to have to acknowledge the elephant

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Speaker 3: in the room, which is weight loss injections. But reading

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Speaker 3: this story, it just highlighted for me how much our

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Speaker 3: understanding of weight loss and dieting has evolved. I remember

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Speaker 3: growing up and a lot of people's mums were doing

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Speaker 3: weight watches and it was all about the point system

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Speaker 3: and you could have that brownie and you could have

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Speaker 3: that glass of wine, but then you might skip lunch.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure that's not what Weight Watches was actually saying,

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Speaker 3: but that's how some people were using that point system.

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Speaker 3: And then, of course in twenty eighteen, I think Weight

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Speaker 3: Watchers saw the writing on the wall and rebranded as

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Speaker 3: ww because they knew that that term and even the

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Speaker 3: explicit reference to weight didn't sit comfortably with women. We

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Speaker 3: talk a fair bit about weight loss injections, but it's

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Speaker 3: worth remembering that the success rate of diets is between

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Speaker 3: one and five percent. Going on a diet did not

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Speaker 3: work for people, and I do think that there is

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Speaker 3: a place for companies, whether it's WWU or I've had

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Speaker 3: a few other brands talk about it. Just because you're

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Speaker 3: on weight loss injections doesn't mean that you're not interested

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Speaker 3: in your health and making sure that you're eating the

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Speaker 3: right foods and fueling your body. So I do think

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Speaker 3: that there's a place for those two things to come

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Speaker 3: together and to help people with health literacy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because at their best, those kind of groups are

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Speaker 2: basically support groups. Right, So it seems so outdated now,

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Speaker 2: but the original weight watchers people had public ways supposed

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Speaker 2: to be to hold you accountable and also to give

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Speaker 2: you other people to talk to about your weight. And

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Speaker 2: it's so funny, as you've said, Jesse, the culture shifted

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Speaker 2: on this a while ago, because now it seems really

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Speaker 2: strange that you would reward the person with the lowest

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Speaker 2: number in the group and everybody'd be like, go Betty

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Speaker 2: and all that kind of stuff. But on the other hand,

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Speaker 2: when you are trying to change something as significant as

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Speaker 2: how you eat or something about your health a body,

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Speaker 2: it can be really lonely. It can genuinely be really lonely,

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Speaker 2: especially if you feel a level of shame attached to it,

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Speaker 2: which many women do. So the idea of having this

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Speaker 2: sort of community I think still has a place, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's every rule is having to be rewritten in the

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Speaker 2: face of this new medicine.

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Speaker 3: It also made me think about how weight watches or

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Speaker 3: WW and I think that this is a nature of

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Speaker 3: diets when you're doing something like this, or when someone

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Speaker 3: is on a diet, it seems to only turn up

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Speaker 3: the food noise. And what these injections appear to be

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Speaker 3: doing and what a lot of people who take them

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Speaker 3: say is that it turns it town. I think that's

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Speaker 3: really interesting. It's like the more that we talk about

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Speaker 3: it and obsess over everything that goes into our mouth,

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Speaker 3: the worse the problem can become, or the more all

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Speaker 3: consuming it can become. So it's it's a very interesting evolution.

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Speaker 1: Wait watches local business here in Australia just confirming they

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Speaker 1: say they're here to stay and they will continue to

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Speaker 1: operate as usual. The Australian services will not be affected

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Speaker 1: by the US restructuring process.

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Speaker 3: In case you missed it, Taylor Swift has been subpoenaed

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Speaker 3: in the Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni case. And does

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Speaker 3: that mean that we will finally be able to read

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Speaker 3: all of Taylor Swift's text messages. Well, here is what happened.

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Speaker 3: Baldoni's lawyer, Brian Friedman.

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Speaker 1: No relation.

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Speaker 3: To get the gossip, the gossip that man would have.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, I think you're.

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Speaker 1: Very much.

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Speaker 3: I think there's a connection. I think it has the

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Speaker 3: same interesting.

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Speaker 1: It's bringing my name into disrepute.

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Speaker 3: The subpoena was issued last week. Now reminder, a subpoena

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Speaker 3: is a legal document issued by a court that compels

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Speaker 3: a person to either attend a hearing or a trial.

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Speaker 3: Maybe they have to give evidence or produce documents related

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Speaker 3: to the case. A representative for Swift said the subpoena

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Speaker 3: was purely to draw public interest and has nothing to

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Speaker 3: do with focusing on the facts of the case. They added,

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Speaker 3: Taylor Swift never set foot on the set of this movie.

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Speaker 3: She was not involved in any casting or creative decisions.

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Speaker 3: She did not score the film. She never saw an

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Speaker 3: edit or made any notes on the film. She did

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Speaker 3: not even see It Ends with Us until weeks after

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Speaker 3: its public release, and was traveling around the globe during

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty three and twenty twenty four, headlining the biggest

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Speaker 3: tour in history. Now this is important because there is

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Speaker 3: a theory floated by an anonymous emailer who contacted des

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Speaker 3: Moi saying that the subpoena is being used strategically to

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Speaker 3: basically expose Blake Lively as a liar. Now, remember Blake

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Speaker 3: Lively when all those her Takes messages came out, she

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Speaker 3: used Taylor Swift almost as a point of leverage in saying,

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Speaker 3: I've got these dragons on my side. She used this

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Speaker 3: Game of Thrones analogy, and she said that Ryan Reynolds

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Speaker 3: and Taylor Swift help her creatively a lot. Basically, Baldoni's

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Speaker 3: team say that she almost used Taylor Swift as a

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Speaker 3: threat to suggest like, I've got all this power and

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Speaker 3: I'm taking over this movie. I've got the backing of

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Speaker 3: one of the most famous women in the world. And

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Speaker 3: the theory goes that Baldoni's lawyers will argue that she

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Speaker 3: used Taylor's name to take over the movie, when in fact,

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Speaker 3: Taylor had nothing at all to do with the movie,

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Speaker 3: and it basically paints Blake Lively as someone who doesn't

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Speaker 3: tell the truth, which is what you want in a

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Speaker 3: case like this. Maya what do you think?

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Speaker 1: Ooh, shots fired by my girl Tree Payne. Tree Payne

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Speaker 1: is the legendary publicist of Taylor Swift with the best

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Speaker 1: name in the whole world. She's formidable and one of

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Speaker 1: my Roman empires since this began. Is just how pissed

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Speaker 1: Tree would be to have Taylor's name brought into this

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Speaker 1: absolute shit fight between Justin Baldoni and Blake Lively. I

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Speaker 1: think it's an interesting idea that this has been used

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Speaker 1: to flush out Taylor in terms of they knew that

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Speaker 1: by subpoena ing her, she would protest. There are a

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Speaker 1: lot of people who've protested about being dragged into this

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Speaker 1: and about being subpoened. Is Justin Baldoni trying to turn

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Speaker 1: this into a media circus? Absolutely, But I think my

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Speaker 1: understanding of this is that Blake would have probably said

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Speaker 1: something to him dropping Taylor's name. He's then perceived that

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Speaker 1: as her weaponizing Taylor, and so he's flipped it and said, well,

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Speaker 1: game on, let's do this. And so what Taylor has done,

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Speaker 1: or Tree has done on Taylor's behalf by distance seeing

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Speaker 1: herself massively from Blake and from the movie is to

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Speaker 1: basically say in a line that Taylor herself coined around

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Speaker 1: the whole Kim Kardashi and Kane West thing is I

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Speaker 1: wish to be removed from this narrative. I don't have

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Speaker 1: a dog in this fight. This is not me. But

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Speaker 1: by the same token, she went on to say in

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Speaker 1: a later part of that statement that this is a

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Speaker 1: case about sexual harassment and intimidating women, which is very

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Speaker 1: much on black side. So she's not saying this is

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Speaker 1: between two people, and allegedly she's drawing a line in

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Speaker 1: the sound about where she stands and who she backs

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Speaker 1: and what she thinks this case is about. But she's

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Speaker 1: saying I'm out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's being read a lot as far as I

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Speaker 2: can see, as Taylor distancing herself from Blake. But actually

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Speaker 2: there's a way of reading it that's supportive, as you

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Speaker 2: kind of point out me, which is that she's actually

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Speaker 2: saying to Justin Baldoni, stop trying to bring me into this,

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Speaker 2: like this has got nothing to do with me. I

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Speaker 2: don't want to be part of it. I think the

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Speaker 2: reporting which is everybody saying, oh, she's telling Blake to

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Speaker 2: back off. If they're really good friends, if they've been

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Speaker 2: really good friends for forever, then of course they would

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Speaker 2: talk about work. Everybody does, And I think you could

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Speaker 2: definitely read this as her just saying justin, don't try

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Speaker 2: and drag me into it.

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Speaker 3: So what do you think we'll get, because we're probably

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Speaker 3: not going to get her text messages? Right, But do

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Speaker 3: you see a world in which she's actually summoned to

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Speaker 3: the trial or do you think that this is just

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Speaker 3: a play in a game of chess to get a

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Speaker 3: statement like this?

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Speaker 1: So that's what the statement is designed to do. It's

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Speaker 1: to basically flag this is an attention grab, this is

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Speaker 1: a circus. Trying to involve Taylor is really a tactic

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Speaker 1: and she's got nothing to add to this legal case.

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Speaker 1: And so it's then up to the judge whether she

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Speaker 1: is deposed or whether some documents are subpoened. You know,

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Speaker 1: that's a call for the judge to make. It was

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Speaker 1: Mother's Day in Australia yesterday and something I noticed is

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Speaker 1: that things went a little bit berserk online and also

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Speaker 1: on my phone. If you own a phone and you're

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Speaker 1: on social media, and even if you're not, even if

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Speaker 1: you just have a phone and you've got text messages,

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Speaker 1: I noticed a real change this year in the amount

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Speaker 1: of mental load that was required on Mother's Day. It

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Speaker 1: all started as soon as I turned my phone on

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Speaker 1: when I got a lot of messages in my group

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Speaker 1: chats and from girlfriends and in family group chats, Happy

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Speaker 1: Mother's Day to all the mothers, and lots of validation

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Speaker 1: and acknowledgment of what a wonderful job we do, which

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Speaker 1: seems lovely. But then I was like, oh God, do

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Speaker 1: I have to reply to all these messages? Do I

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Speaker 1: have to message all the mothers that I know? Which

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Speaker 1: is a lot? And then I looked on social media,

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Speaker 1: and it often is a frenzy on Mother's Day of

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Speaker 1: women posting about their mothers, sometimes their mothers in law.

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Speaker 1: Less that, but now I noticed this year a couple

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Speaker 1: of different things. People were posting about themselves as mothers

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Speaker 1: and thanking their children, and it just became, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: it was like everybody had to do all this work

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Speaker 1: to include everybody and make everybody felt included. Jesse Hoole,

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Speaker 1: what was your experience yesterday?

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Speaker 3: I think Mother's Day has become a very dangerous day.

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Speaker 3: Dangerous is the word I would use to describe it.

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Speaker 3: And it is dangerous because there is no card, there

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Speaker 3: is no gift that could possibly capture the work and

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Speaker 3: the sacrifice that goes into one of the most undervalued

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Speaker 3: jobs that anyone ever does, and because there is so

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Speaker 3: little external validation every other day of the year, I

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Speaker 3: think that probably waking up on Mother's Day it feels

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Speaker 3: like a trap for a lot of people, and I

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Speaker 3: think that women are shouldering this burden. So I would

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Speaker 3: be really interested in speaking to retail workers about who's

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Speaker 3: buying the majority of Mother's Day gifts because I think

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Speaker 3: daughters are acknowledging their mothers. I think the people that

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Speaker 3: I got the most messages from were other mothers, as

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Speaker 3: you say, Maya, saying you're doing a great job. I

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Speaker 3: see you, I value what you do. And then I

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Speaker 3: saw at one point I was scrolling through my Instagram

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Speaker 3: feed and as you say, Mea, it was like all

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Speaker 3: these mothers posting about being mothers, which I get, and

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Speaker 3: I loved it, and I love seeing photos of people's families.

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Speaker 3: But I thought, is this US posting because we, again

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Speaker 3: we do not get any other external validation. Is this

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Speaker 3: us saying I am here. I want to be seen.

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Speaker 3: I want my work to be seen, and I do

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Speaker 3: not feel like I am surrounded by people who see me.

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Speaker 3: And Amy Girard, who's a author and radio host, posted

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Speaker 3: late last night, just going glad.

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Speaker 4: Mother's Days over. I did pull out a little violin

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Speaker 4: for myself yesterday and rightly, so you know, I feel alive.

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Speaker 4: I am very low maintenance. I really don't ask much.

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Speaker 4: I don't expect gifts. I don't expect much on Mother's Day.

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Speaker 4: But here's what I do expect. If you can't my load,

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Speaker 4: like I mean, at the end of the day, washing

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Speaker 4: still needs to get done. Kids still need to be fed. Now,

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Speaker 4: if you can't lighten my load and do the washing

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Speaker 4: for me, and I don't know, just help me to

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Speaker 4: relax for the day, then at least be nice to me,

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Speaker 4: you know.

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Speaker 1: Just be nice to me.

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Speaker 4: I think the saddest part is I must have gotten

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Speaker 4: over two thousand replies to that story from other moms

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Speaker 4: just saying feels like I've felt like a piece of

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Speaker 4: today as well, Like it's one fucking day, guys, what

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Speaker 4: fucking day.

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Speaker 3: I think that there's a bit of an epidemic of that,

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Speaker 3: if we're honest.

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Speaker 2: My mother's Day, which was perfectly pleasant, is simplified by

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Speaker 2: the fact that I don't have in laws here anymore

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Speaker 2: with rens mom, is it with us anymore? My parents

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Speaker 2: live on the other side of the world. And obviously

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Speaker 2: those things are painful on Mother's Day, but they make

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Speaker 2: it easier because it's only about me their house. Not

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Speaker 2: that it was it was about sport and washing and

300
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Speaker 2: all those things. But a shift that I noticed this

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Speaker 2: year online was I saw more than one, in fact,

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00:16:19,502 --> 00:16:25,422
Speaker 2: many tiktoks and in sturreels from mothers saying older mothers

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Speaker 2: of adult children step aside. This is not your day.

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Speaker 2: It's personified by this little grab.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 2: The one thing I will never understand on Mother's Day

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Speaker 2: is grandmothers and mothers who only want to be celebrated.

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Speaker 2: But they don't want to celebrate their daughter or their

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Speaker 2: daughter in law.

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Speaker 4: For giving them grandbabies, but they want to be celebrated

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Speaker 4: as a mother and a grandmother.

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Speaker 1: It's weird.

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Speaker 2: It's weird behavior. I don't know any women who would

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Speaker 2: be like that, but it's clearly a common feeling because

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Speaker 2: I saw another post from someone saying if you have

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Speaker 2: adult children and they have children, this day is no

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00:16:57,662 --> 00:17:00,382
Speaker 2: longer about you, step aside, and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I thought it was still about you, Mia. Isn't Mother's

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Speaker 2: Day still about you as well as about the mother

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Speaker 2: of your son's child.

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Speaker 1: It's funny you say that, because this mother's more than

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Speaker 1: any other. I felt the politics of it all in

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Speaker 1: that I wanted to see my mother in law. I

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Speaker 1: wanted to see my mother. Of course, I wanted to

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Speaker 1: see all of my children. But then my eldest son,

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Speaker 1: he also has a mother in law and I'm his mother,

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Speaker 1: but then he's also got to be the avatar for

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Speaker 1: his wife, who's a mother. And it's so funny because

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Speaker 1: on the day before Mother's Day, my mother in law

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Speaker 1: came over with flowers for me, and she always gets

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Speaker 1: her daughter and daughters in law flowers. And then I

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00:17:44,542 --> 00:17:49,182
Speaker 1: suddenly thought, oh, I should get Jesse something from Luna.

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Speaker 1: And so I was like, I need to go to

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Speaker 1: office works and get a like a one of those frames,

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Speaker 1: and then I've got to put all the photos in it.

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Speaker 1: And then I was like, I'm too tired this idea

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00:18:00,621 --> 00:18:04,142
Speaker 1: of now we've got to celebrate our children and our

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Speaker 1: daughters in law and sons in law for giving us grandback,

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Speaker 1: Like can I just have a of tea and some

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Speaker 1: toast in bed? Like what happened to that? Yeah? Have

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00:18:13,101 --> 00:18:15,941
Speaker 1: made card a little past a bracelet. That's all I want.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly what I got, because life's got too complicated

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00:18:19,702 --> 00:18:20,542
Speaker 2: over your way now.

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Speaker 3: I think when the pie starts to feel too small,

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00:18:23,502 --> 00:18:25,942
Speaker 3: women turn on each other because it's like, there isn't

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00:18:26,061 --> 00:18:28,941
Speaker 3: enough pie for you to be celebrated and me to

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00:18:28,982 --> 00:18:32,942
Speaker 3: be celebrated. And as the mother of a small child,

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00:18:33,581 --> 00:18:37,542
Speaker 3: she cannot yet say to me, mummy, you are doing

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Speaker 3: the best job in the whole world. You are the

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Speaker 3: best mum. I need my husband to be doing that.

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Speaker 3: So I think that's part of the etiquette rule, is

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Speaker 3: that if you have small kids, then someone in their

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00:18:47,942 --> 00:18:50,421
Speaker 3: lives needs to do it because their child is not

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Speaker 3: going to do it for them. I was reading yesterday

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Speaker 3: about the story of how Mother's Day started. Have you

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Speaker 3: guys heard this story.

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Speaker 2: Before from the gift card company? No?

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Speaker 3: No, Colleen, you cynic. You're a cynic, Hollywayen right.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 3: It was started by a woman named Anna Jarvis who

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Speaker 3: decided to mark the day after losing her mum. And

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00:19:08,982 --> 00:19:10,982
Speaker 3: this was at the beginning of the twentieth century. Her mom

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00:19:11,022 --> 00:19:15,302
Speaker 3: died the year before, and she decided that it was

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Speaker 3: about celebrating the invisible work that mothers do in a

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00:19:19,581 --> 00:19:23,662
Speaker 3: specific type of love, and really it was about for her,

366
00:19:23,742 --> 00:19:25,902
Speaker 3: it was about a mother that she'd lost, and then

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00:19:25,982 --> 00:19:29,581
Speaker 3: she became the fiercest campaigner in the world to make

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Speaker 3: it stop. She hated Mother's Day. By the time of

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00:19:33,341 --> 00:19:36,141
Speaker 3: her death, she was just like, make it stop because

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00:19:36,182 --> 00:19:40,821
Speaker 3: she was revolted by how capitalism, yes commercialized, it became.

371
00:19:40,861 --> 00:19:44,821
Speaker 3: She was like, don't you dare jump on this flower companies,

372
00:19:44,861 --> 00:19:46,621
Speaker 3: That's not what this is about. It was meant to

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Speaker 3: be about just seeing each other. So she was the

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Speaker 3: biggest lobbyist for abolishing it.

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Speaker 2: In the end, I do send messages to my single

376
00:19:52,782 --> 00:19:54,941
Speaker 2: mom friends on Mother's Day because the ain't nobody bringing

377
00:19:54,942 --> 00:19:56,782
Speaker 2: them a cup of tea in bed. But the biggest

378
00:19:56,782 --> 00:19:59,821
Speaker 2: transition I noticed in my house is when your kids

379
00:19:59,861 --> 00:20:01,701
Speaker 2: are little and lunar, isn't they yet? But you've got

380
00:20:01,742 --> 00:20:05,061
Speaker 2: years ahead of this, as Mia just said, pastor bracelets,

381
00:20:05,262 --> 00:20:07,861
Speaker 2: twenty five tiny scrappy cards that they were forced to

382
00:20:07,861 --> 00:20:10,742
Speaker 2: make a primary school, and kindy lists of things at

383
00:20:10,821 --> 00:20:13,421
Speaker 2: my mom and then there's always something embarrassing like drinks,

384
00:20:13,462 --> 00:20:15,782
Speaker 2: wine in the kitchen or whatever it is that you

385
00:20:15,782 --> 00:20:17,941
Speaker 2: get loads of that. But then, because now both my

386
00:20:18,022 --> 00:20:20,702
Speaker 2: kids are in high school, crickets not of that, So

387
00:20:20,821 --> 00:20:23,542
Speaker 2: I this is what I did. I told them before

388
00:20:23,581 --> 00:20:26,901
Speaker 2: the day that I still wanted that shit. I was like,

389
00:20:26,942 --> 00:20:29,101
Speaker 2: I know, you don't have to go and do it,

390
00:20:29,302 --> 00:20:32,621
Speaker 2: and they did to a point. So needs expressed.

391
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Speaker 1: Gifts art my love language. But I'm strict about cards

392
00:20:36,621 --> 00:20:39,582
Speaker 1: and I expect them on my birthday and on Mother's Day.

393
00:20:39,661 --> 00:20:42,661
Speaker 1: Except this year, I actually decided, do you know what,

394
00:20:43,101 --> 00:20:45,982
Speaker 1: because I know that my kids just get exhausted, particularly

395
00:20:46,022 --> 00:20:48,782
Speaker 1: my male kids, get exhausted with the idea of writing cards.

396
00:20:49,381 --> 00:20:51,141
Speaker 1: So I was like, you know what, I'm fine, I

397
00:20:51,182 --> 00:20:52,542
Speaker 1: don't need it this year. And I said that in

398
00:20:52,581 --> 00:20:55,982
Speaker 1: the family group chat and then they all came up with, wait,

399
00:20:56,141 --> 00:20:58,982
Speaker 1: this is a trap. Yeah, this is a trap.

400
00:20:59,621 --> 00:21:02,181
Speaker 3: We've played this game before and it doesn't I was like, no.

401
00:21:02,022 --> 00:21:04,022
Speaker 1: No, no, it's not a test. It's not a trap.

402
00:21:04,101 --> 00:21:06,742
Speaker 1: I mean it. And then the next day, two out

403
00:21:06,742 --> 00:21:09,502
Speaker 1: of my three children did not fall for the trap.

404
00:21:09,702 --> 00:21:11,742
Speaker 1: Not that with the chap, but I got cards from

405
00:21:11,742 --> 00:21:14,302
Speaker 1: two of them and a present from one of them

406
00:21:14,302 --> 00:21:15,422
Speaker 1: that I know that Jesse bought.

407
00:21:15,942 --> 00:21:16,222
Speaker 2: I did.

408
00:21:16,262 --> 00:21:17,101
Speaker 3: It was a lovely gift.

409
00:21:17,381 --> 00:21:21,821
Speaker 2: I love it so much. Next a millennial superstar appears

410
00:21:21,901 --> 00:21:24,542
Speaker 2: to be in free fall. What is going on with

411
00:21:24,702 --> 00:21:33,181
Speaker 2: Justin Bieber. I've done things that have hurt others. I

412
00:21:33,262 --> 00:21:35,582
Speaker 2: sometimes worry I'm going to be exposed if I tell

413
00:21:35,621 --> 00:21:38,741
Speaker 2: people how selfish I am. And I've been really asking

414
00:21:38,782 --> 00:21:41,262
Speaker 2: God to help me see the best in people. This

415
00:21:41,502 --> 00:21:44,221
Speaker 2: is how some of the most recent posts from one

416
00:21:44,262 --> 00:21:46,382
Speaker 2: of the most famous men in the world and one

417
00:21:46,422 --> 00:21:50,821
Speaker 2: of the biggest millennial celebrities begin. If you follow Justin

418
00:21:50,942 --> 00:21:54,302
Speaker 2: Bieber on social and many hundreds of millions of people do,

419
00:21:55,182 --> 00:21:58,181
Speaker 2: you will have seen notes posts like those popping up

420
00:21:58,222 --> 00:22:01,901
Speaker 2: a lot on his feed lately, alongside blurry shots of

421
00:22:01,982 --> 00:22:06,342
Speaker 2: him dancing, eyes hardly open, clouds of smoke, pictures being

422
00:22:06,422 --> 00:22:09,822
Speaker 2: uploaded and taken down, many repeated shots of his golf

423
00:22:09,901 --> 00:22:13,262
Speaker 2: swing not sure what that's about, and plenty of picks

424
00:22:13,262 --> 00:22:15,942
Speaker 2: of his mates hanging around watching hockey and making sort

425
00:22:15,982 --> 00:22:19,701
Speaker 2: of repetitive soundless motions. If you're watching any of the

426
00:22:19,702 --> 00:22:23,061
Speaker 2: celebrity gossip sites, you're seeing a whole lot more Biber

427
00:22:23,141 --> 00:22:26,661
Speaker 2: clashing with paparazzi, Biber clearly out of it at Coachella,

428
00:22:27,141 --> 00:22:30,581
Speaker 2: and you're probably reading headlines about his involvement as a

429
00:22:30,702 --> 00:22:32,941
Speaker 2: child with p Diddy, who is about to be at

430
00:22:32,942 --> 00:22:36,101
Speaker 2: the center of a massive sexual assault trafficking court case.

431
00:22:36,621 --> 00:22:39,341
Speaker 2: You're hearing about legal clashes with his former management and

432
00:22:39,422 --> 00:22:43,022
Speaker 2: losing money on a canceled tour, and new music is

433
00:22:43,222 --> 00:22:46,061
Speaker 2: very hard to find. And after those posts that I

434
00:22:46,141 --> 00:22:48,381
Speaker 2: read out at the beginning today, which were the beginnings

435
00:22:48,381 --> 00:22:53,341
Speaker 2: of these sort of very introspective, very sad kind of reflections,

436
00:22:53,702 --> 00:22:56,821
Speaker 2: you're seeing a whole fresh round of fears for Bieber

437
00:22:57,101 --> 00:23:02,182
Speaker 2: headlines Jesse. We have seen millennial celebrities in personal freefall

438
00:23:02,222 --> 00:23:05,662
Speaker 2: on social media before, most notably, of course, Britney Spears.

439
00:23:06,061 --> 00:23:09,702
Speaker 2: What are you feeling about what's going on with Justin ba.

440
00:23:10,141 --> 00:23:13,461
Speaker 3: I think we've all had the experience of being on

441
00:23:13,502 --> 00:23:17,101
Speaker 3: social media and seeing someone that we're close to post

442
00:23:17,222 --> 00:23:21,021
Speaker 3: things that are unusual, that are out of character, that

443
00:23:21,141 --> 00:23:25,461
Speaker 3: might seem to be a call for help. When that

444
00:23:25,742 --> 00:23:29,181
Speaker 3: content is being posted by someone who is one of

445
00:23:29,222 --> 00:23:32,861
Speaker 3: the most followed people in the world on Instagram, that

446
00:23:33,222 --> 00:23:39,101
Speaker 3: becomes very unusual and an interesting thing for us to

447
00:23:39,182 --> 00:23:43,781
Speaker 3: grapple with. I think Justin Bieber he was discovered on

448
00:23:43,982 --> 00:23:47,262
Speaker 3: YouTube when he was twelve. He is now thirty one.

449
00:23:47,702 --> 00:23:54,102
Speaker 3: He has been famous for eighteen years, right, He in

450
00:23:54,182 --> 00:23:57,581
Speaker 3: fact was discovered in his career launched in the same

451
00:23:57,782 --> 00:24:01,182
Speaker 3: year that Britney Spears attacked that car with an umbrella.

452
00:24:01,462 --> 00:24:06,101
Speaker 3: And I think that there is something almost serendipitous about

453
00:24:06,141 --> 00:24:10,782
Speaker 3: that crossover because we have seen, you know, whether it's

454
00:24:10,821 --> 00:24:14,421
Speaker 3: mental health issues or the price of fame. We've been

455
00:24:14,462 --> 00:24:17,662
Speaker 3: discussing this since Judy Garland, Like this isn't entirely new

456
00:24:17,782 --> 00:24:21,221
Speaker 3: to our age, but we now see the cracks start

457
00:24:21,302 --> 00:24:26,101
Speaker 3: to show in real time via social media, and it's

458
00:24:26,262 --> 00:24:29,662
Speaker 3: really difficult because people can talk about sort of concern

459
00:24:29,742 --> 00:24:33,341
Speaker 3: trolling or pretending like you're concerned. But I was a

460
00:24:33,381 --> 00:24:35,901
Speaker 3: massive fan of Justin Bieber in those early days and

461
00:24:35,942 --> 00:24:40,302
Speaker 3: I really liked his music and to see the unusual

462
00:24:40,381 --> 00:24:42,262
Speaker 3: content that he's posting, because it can be kind of

463
00:24:42,262 --> 00:24:45,221
Speaker 3: hard to miss. Sometimes it's posted and then it's removed.

464
00:24:45,861 --> 00:24:47,782
Speaker 3: He will be half dressed, he'll kind of have his

465
00:24:48,381 --> 00:24:51,662
Speaker 3: arm in one side of his jumper. And then I think,

466
00:24:51,661 --> 00:24:55,501
Speaker 3: in particular the clips from Coachella most recently, where he

467
00:24:55,821 --> 00:25:00,141
Speaker 3: is clearly smoking weed and in one he's beside his

468
00:25:00,222 --> 00:25:02,462
Speaker 3: fifteen year old brother and it appears that Hailey Bieber

469
00:25:02,581 --> 00:25:05,741
Speaker 3: moves the brother out of the way. She seems to

470
00:25:05,742 --> 00:25:07,542
Speaker 3: be the one in all of those videos that are

471
00:25:07,581 --> 00:25:11,702
Speaker 3: often taken from fan or just people walking past who's

472
00:25:11,861 --> 00:25:15,461
Speaker 3: trying to keep the illusion that everything is okay. But

473
00:25:15,542 --> 00:25:19,502
Speaker 3: even from his posture to his facial expressions, he looks

474
00:25:19,542 --> 00:25:21,581
Speaker 3: like he's under the influence of something and like he's

475
00:25:21,742 --> 00:25:25,341
Speaker 3: not thriving. And there was a quote by an author

476
00:25:25,341 --> 00:25:27,662
Speaker 3: who wrote a book most recently about Britney Spears, who

477
00:25:27,702 --> 00:25:30,981
Speaker 3: said his name is Jeff Weiss, and he said that

478
00:25:31,381 --> 00:25:34,101
Speaker 3: Justin bieber at this stage of his life will have

479
00:25:34,381 --> 00:25:38,221
Speaker 3: basically never had an honest interaction with anyone because of

480
00:25:38,262 --> 00:25:41,141
Speaker 3: how early he found fame and how all of the

481
00:25:41,182 --> 00:25:45,101
Speaker 3: people around him have tried to leach off him. He's

482
00:25:45,381 --> 00:25:48,861
Speaker 3: fallen out with record labels and now he's independent, and

483
00:25:48,901 --> 00:25:52,702
Speaker 3: those people are actually saying he removes himself from anyone

484
00:25:52,742 --> 00:25:55,782
Speaker 3: who says no to him. I just don't know how

485
00:25:55,782 --> 00:25:59,422
Speaker 3: you navigate this and come out the other end as

486
00:25:59,581 --> 00:26:04,901
Speaker 3: a balanced, healthy person with your ego in check.

487
00:26:05,182 --> 00:26:10,222
Speaker 1: Beyonce, did It's possible Justin Timberlake much did?

488
00:26:10,302 --> 00:26:12,581
Speaker 3: He's had his own issues justin Timia, Yeah.

489
00:26:12,341 --> 00:26:17,461
Speaker 1: Of course, but not like this complete public immolation. I

490
00:26:17,462 --> 00:26:20,902
Speaker 1: think what's interesting is the we have to be sort

491
00:26:20,901 --> 00:26:24,621
Speaker 1: of euphemistic when we talk about mental health issues often,

492
00:26:25,702 --> 00:26:29,741
Speaker 1: and what about substance abuse, what about addiction? And I

493
00:26:29,821 --> 00:26:31,542
Speaker 1: know that those things can be blurry.

494
00:26:31,702 --> 00:26:35,022
Speaker 3: I think that substance abuse and addiction are so inextricably

495
00:26:35,061 --> 00:26:36,662
Speaker 3: tied to mental health issues, right.

496
00:26:36,621 --> 00:26:39,901
Speaker 2: Yes, But you know you were saying about stimisms, the

497
00:26:39,942 --> 00:26:43,982
Speaker 2: euphemisms in the mainstream media in inverted commas, the euphemisms

498
00:26:43,982 --> 00:26:46,341
Speaker 2: around what's going on with Justin Bieber. I feel like

499
00:26:46,381 --> 00:26:48,821
Speaker 2: the mainstream media is treating him with kid gloves in

500
00:26:48,861 --> 00:26:51,982
Speaker 2: a way. The commentary about what he was like at Coachella,

501
00:26:52,222 --> 00:26:55,742
Speaker 2: just saying things like he was seen smoking around his brother.

502
00:26:56,422 --> 00:26:58,821
Speaker 2: If you see those videos, this is not a guy

503
00:26:58,861 --> 00:27:01,181
Speaker 2: who's just had a joint in a beer. He is

504
00:27:01,341 --> 00:27:04,181
Speaker 2: barely conscious. And I think all the time, if that

505
00:27:04,302 --> 00:27:06,502
Speaker 2: was Hailey Bieber, who has they have a ten month

506
00:27:06,542 --> 00:27:09,182
Speaker 2: old baby, I think behaving like that in a public place,

507
00:27:09,182 --> 00:27:12,022
Speaker 2: can you imagine the headlines? But Mia, to your point

508
00:27:12,101 --> 00:27:15,261
Speaker 2: about the big stars like Beyonce and just In Timberlake.

509
00:27:15,901 --> 00:27:20,061
Speaker 2: You can't turn Fame off, but you could turn Instagram off,

510
00:27:20,101 --> 00:27:22,262
Speaker 2: couldn't you Like if you're just in Bieber. Do you

511
00:27:22,302 --> 00:27:25,661
Speaker 2: think there's a way that he could retreat from this

512
00:27:26,381 --> 00:27:27,581
Speaker 2: scrutiny and reality?

513
00:27:28,101 --> 00:27:30,461
Speaker 1: I mean, of course there is, but I mean we

514
00:27:30,542 --> 00:27:33,101
Speaker 1: even saw it with Britney Spears. You're talking about a

515
00:27:33,101 --> 00:27:39,422
Speaker 1: generation who that's their only ability to have direct contact

516
00:27:39,502 --> 00:27:43,181
Speaker 1: with the world and with their audience. Everything else is

517
00:27:43,222 --> 00:27:45,861
Speaker 1: what's written about them, or what's said about them, or

518
00:27:45,901 --> 00:27:48,861
Speaker 1: the photos that are taken off them and videos by

519
00:27:48,901 --> 00:27:52,262
Speaker 1: perhaps And you know, there's so many layers to the

520
00:27:52,341 --> 00:27:56,221
Speaker 1: Couchella vision, isn't there because Hailey Bieber was there, And

521
00:27:56,262 --> 00:27:58,461
Speaker 1: not that we want to make a woman responsible for

522
00:27:58,542 --> 00:28:04,101
Speaker 1: the actions of her partner, but the decision to allow

523
00:28:04,302 --> 00:28:07,981
Speaker 1: him to be in public in that way whenevery's got

524
00:28:07,982 --> 00:28:11,421
Speaker 1: their phones out, you know, it's just so sad and

525
00:28:11,462 --> 00:28:14,861
Speaker 1: it speaks to the struggle that must go on behind

526
00:28:14,861 --> 00:28:18,141
Speaker 1: the scenes for her, you know. And he's a new father.

527
00:28:18,262 --> 00:28:20,581
Speaker 1: That's the other thing. As you said, Ohole, that's just

528
00:28:20,702 --> 00:28:25,941
Speaker 1: so heartbreaking, and people don't seem to take into account.

529
00:28:25,982 --> 00:28:28,501
Speaker 1: I mean, people would be calling child services if that

530
00:28:28,542 --> 00:28:31,861
Speaker 1: was Hailey Biber, wouldn't they and expressing fear for the child,

531
00:28:31,861 --> 00:28:33,982
Speaker 1: But no one even mentions that he's a dad.

532
00:28:34,022 --> 00:28:38,422
Speaker 3: And by contrast, Hailey Bieber is so controlled, so together,

533
00:28:39,022 --> 00:28:41,661
Speaker 3: so standing up straight, never appears to be under the

534
00:28:41,661 --> 00:28:44,022
Speaker 3: influence of anything. And I reject what you say about

535
00:28:44,382 --> 00:28:47,542
Speaker 3: letting him out in public. I think that we even

536
00:28:47,742 --> 00:28:51,661
Speaker 3: saw this with Britney Spears, Like just because you're having

537
00:28:51,661 --> 00:28:55,221
Speaker 3: some struggles doesn't mean that you don't have agency that

538
00:28:55,262 --> 00:28:57,222
Speaker 3: you have the right to assert like.

539
00:28:57,542 --> 00:28:59,982
Speaker 1: Oh, I would say that he should not be in

540
00:29:00,022 --> 00:29:03,182
Speaker 1: public like that. There's just absolutely no way, there isn't

541
00:29:03,342 --> 00:29:06,022
Speaker 1: no one could argue that was a good decision for him.

542
00:29:06,502 --> 00:29:09,102
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that she has the power. She's

543
00:29:09,142 --> 00:29:12,701
Speaker 1: not his guardian. She can't constrain him. There is no

544
00:29:12,782 --> 00:29:16,102
Speaker 1: conservativeship over him, and there is never any prospect of

545
00:29:16,182 --> 00:29:19,742
Speaker 1: that even being raised after what happened with Brittany. Back

546
00:29:19,782 --> 00:29:21,862
Speaker 1: to your point about Instagram, I think that you're talking

547
00:29:21,862 --> 00:29:25,102
Speaker 1: about a generation of stars, that and generation of people

548
00:29:25,182 --> 00:29:29,542
Speaker 1: not just stars, where Instagram and their connection to social

549
00:29:29,582 --> 00:29:32,102
Speaker 1: media is so intrinsic to who they are and their

550
00:29:32,102 --> 00:29:35,661
Speaker 1: identity that taking that away from them is almost a

551
00:29:35,702 --> 00:29:38,022
Speaker 1: breach of their human rights, Like according to.

552
00:29:37,982 --> 00:29:40,822
Speaker 2: Them, do you think that we've got a lot better

553
00:29:41,661 --> 00:29:44,421
Speaker 2: understanding how to talk about this stuff. You know a

554
00:29:44,462 --> 00:29:46,102
Speaker 2: lot of one of the reasons I think I said

555
00:29:46,102 --> 00:29:47,542
Speaker 2: before that I think a lot of the coverage of

556
00:29:47,582 --> 00:29:51,701
Speaker 2: Biba is sympathetic, and probably rightly so, because we do

557
00:29:51,862 --> 00:29:55,661
Speaker 2: understand the toll of child stardom. We do understand that

558
00:29:55,862 --> 00:29:59,302
Speaker 2: clearly he was in some very unhealthy situations. I mean

559
00:29:59,342 --> 00:30:02,142
Speaker 2: the P Diddy stuff for starters, But he's talked himself

560
00:30:02,142 --> 00:30:05,142
Speaker 2: about mental health, about drug abuse, about physical health. We're

561
00:30:05,222 --> 00:30:07,221
Speaker 2: much more literate. I think we've moved on from the

562
00:30:07,222 --> 00:30:08,902
Speaker 2: place where we used to just be but you've got

563
00:30:08,942 --> 00:30:11,222
Speaker 2: everything well happy, Like I think we're out of that.

564
00:30:11,902 --> 00:30:14,702
Speaker 2: But now what do we do? And when I say,

565
00:30:14,822 --> 00:30:16,862
Speaker 2: I mean maybe we don't do anything, but I mean

566
00:30:17,661 --> 00:30:22,102
Speaker 2: watching somebody disintegrate like this in public while generally professing

567
00:30:22,102 --> 00:30:24,622
Speaker 2: that everything's okay. Like one of the only link on

568
00:30:24,742 --> 00:30:27,422
Speaker 2: Justin Bieber's Instagram that he sends you to is one

569
00:30:27,542 --> 00:30:31,342
Speaker 2: for a prayer app for example, right generally sort of

570
00:30:31,342 --> 00:30:35,422
Speaker 2: suggesting that everything's okay. What should people do?

571
00:30:35,622 --> 00:30:35,701
Speaker 4: Like?

572
00:30:35,862 --> 00:30:39,221
Speaker 2: Is it the kindest thing to turn away? Is it

573
00:30:39,262 --> 00:30:41,022
Speaker 2: the kindest thing to engage?

574
00:30:41,742 --> 00:30:44,221
Speaker 3: That's a very good point that you've made about the

575
00:30:44,302 --> 00:30:47,102
Speaker 3: p Diddy element, because there's a lot that we don't know,

576
00:30:47,142 --> 00:30:49,102
Speaker 3: but we know that Justin Bieber as a young man

577
00:30:49,382 --> 00:30:52,262
Speaker 3: had close proximity to P Diddy, who is now Obviously

578
00:30:52,302 --> 00:30:54,142
Speaker 3: there are a lot of allegations against him and the

579
00:30:54,142 --> 00:30:54,822
Speaker 3: parties that he.

580
00:30:54,822 --> 00:30:57,022
Speaker 2: Had to Just add to that, Jesse is some people

581
00:30:57,102 --> 00:31:00,622
Speaker 2: have been not necessarily suggesting any direct abuse, but saying

582
00:31:00,622 --> 00:31:02,702
Speaker 2: that from a very young age moving in that circle,

583
00:31:02,742 --> 00:31:06,582
Speaker 2: he was introduced to lots of very inappropriate situations at

584
00:31:06,622 --> 00:31:09,102
Speaker 2: a time in life when he was not able to

585
00:31:09,142 --> 00:31:11,382
Speaker 2: cope with and drugs are included in that. Of course,

586
00:31:11,542 --> 00:31:11,902
Speaker 2: it is.

587
00:31:11,822 --> 00:31:13,302
Speaker 3: As though a lot of people are waiting for the

588
00:31:13,302 --> 00:31:16,622
Speaker 3: Britney Spears moment, or are waiting for the moment when do.

589
00:31:16,542 --> 00:31:18,342
Speaker 1: You mean the umbrella moment? I mean we're watching it

590
00:31:18,382 --> 00:31:19,421
Speaker 1: in real time surely.

591
00:31:19,822 --> 00:31:20,622
Speaker 2: Yeah.

592
00:31:20,661 --> 00:31:25,542
Speaker 3: And people who know addicts or people who struggle with

593
00:31:25,582 --> 00:31:28,982
Speaker 3: severe mental health issues will relate to this that it's

594
00:31:29,062 --> 00:31:31,461
Speaker 3: like when will the moment come and what will the

595
00:31:31,502 --> 00:31:34,302
Speaker 3: moment look like? Because there are other parts of it

596
00:31:34,342 --> 00:31:38,342
Speaker 3: where Justin Bieber recently was approached by paparazzi and people

597
00:31:38,342 --> 00:31:40,982
Speaker 3: are sharing this video saying, oh, he doesn't seem all right,

598
00:31:41,062 --> 00:31:44,382
Speaker 3: but He basically looked at the paparazzi and said, money, money, money,

599
00:31:44,382 --> 00:31:46,422
Speaker 3: that's all you care about. You don't care about humanity.

600
00:31:46,862 --> 00:31:49,582
Speaker 3: I thought, that's totally coherent and makes sense to me.

601
00:31:49,782 --> 00:31:53,022
Speaker 3: He's been frustrated by the paparazzi for most of his life.

602
00:31:53,542 --> 00:31:56,062
Speaker 3: But he also in an interview a few years ago,

603
00:31:56,142 --> 00:31:58,502
Speaker 3: he was talking about Billie Eilish and he became really

604
00:31:58,622 --> 00:32:01,982
Speaker 3: teary in it and said, I just want to protect her.

605
00:32:02,582 --> 00:32:04,382
Speaker 3: It was hard for me being that young and being

606
00:32:04,422 --> 00:32:06,302
Speaker 3: in the industry and not knowing where to turn and

607
00:32:06,342 --> 00:32:08,702
Speaker 3: everyone telling me they loved me and turning their back

608
00:32:08,742 --> 00:32:12,102
Speaker 3: on you in a secon There's this theory about fame

609
00:32:12,262 --> 00:32:14,862
Speaker 3: that for the people who are plucked out of obscurity.

610
00:32:15,502 --> 00:32:17,902
Speaker 3: Britney Spears and Justin Bieber are two of the best

611
00:32:17,942 --> 00:32:21,782
Speaker 3: examples of this, whose families did not have a lot

612
00:32:21,782 --> 00:32:25,502
Speaker 3: of resources, who had no experience with fame, who were

613
00:32:25,542 --> 00:32:29,622
Speaker 3: thrust into the limelight overnight, did not have the infrastructure

614
00:32:29,661 --> 00:32:31,902
Speaker 3: to deal with any of this, and in fact, with

615
00:32:31,982 --> 00:32:34,382
Speaker 3: a lot of the criticism about the NEPO babies, even

616
00:32:34,542 --> 00:32:37,502
Speaker 3: Hailey Bieber, she had some context, like she had people

617
00:32:37,542 --> 00:32:40,822
Speaker 3: in her family who understood how we deal with this,

618
00:32:41,342 --> 00:32:44,302
Speaker 3: maybe had contacts with the right people, knew when to

619
00:32:44,342 --> 00:32:46,382
Speaker 3: turn comments off and when not to post in all

620
00:32:46,422 --> 00:32:50,622
Speaker 3: of this, and it's like Bieber never inherited that knowledge,

621
00:32:50,622 --> 00:32:52,661
Speaker 3: and they're the people I probably worry about the most.

622
00:32:52,982 --> 00:32:55,261
Speaker 1: For those not familiar with Hailey Bieber, of course, she

623
00:32:55,942 --> 00:32:59,022
Speaker 1: was Hailey Baldwin. She is the niece of Alec Baldwin

624
00:32:59,102 --> 00:33:02,622
Speaker 1: and the daughter of one of his brothers, whose nac

625
00:33:02,661 --> 00:33:04,862
Speaker 1: dary I get all the Baldwines a bit confused. But

626
00:33:05,062 --> 00:33:07,782
Speaker 1: she is also an incredible beauty entrepreneur. She's got a

627
00:33:07,782 --> 00:33:11,701
Speaker 1: beauty business called Road which is apparently set to be

628
00:33:11,782 --> 00:33:15,822
Speaker 1: sold for you know, billions of dollars potentially coming up.

629
00:33:15,862 --> 00:33:19,102
Speaker 1: And you're right, she's always the absolute antithesis of him

630
00:33:19,622 --> 00:33:24,022
Speaker 1: in how she holds herself together publicly, and you know,

631
00:33:24,142 --> 00:33:26,142
Speaker 1: has quite a mask in public which you can really

632
00:33:26,182 --> 00:33:29,102
Speaker 1: really understand. But you know, it wasn't long ago that

633
00:33:29,142 --> 00:33:32,222
Speaker 1: we lost lie in pain right from one direction, and

634
00:33:32,782 --> 00:33:35,181
Speaker 1: everything that was going on there that we didn't see

635
00:33:35,542 --> 00:33:38,102
Speaker 1: play out in real time. If you didn't know him,

636
00:33:38,661 --> 00:33:41,622
Speaker 1: looking at his Instagram and you know, even the paparazzi shots,

637
00:33:41,622 --> 00:33:44,102
Speaker 1: you would not have known what was going on behind

638
00:33:44,102 --> 00:33:47,741
Speaker 1: the scenes. It doesn't look like a good industry to

639
00:33:47,782 --> 00:33:50,222
Speaker 1: get involved in if you're a kid, does it no?

640
00:33:50,462 --> 00:33:53,022
Speaker 2: And it also looks like fame is one of those

641
00:33:53,022 --> 00:33:55,461
Speaker 2: things that even though we've heard this story, as you

642
00:33:55,502 --> 00:33:58,062
Speaker 2: made the point at the beginning, Jesse with Judy Garland,

643
00:33:58,342 --> 00:34:00,582
Speaker 2: even though we've heard this story over and over again,

644
00:34:00,661 --> 00:34:04,862
Speaker 2: it's something that people desperately want and desperately chase, even

645
00:34:04,902 --> 00:34:07,062
Speaker 2: though they know it's desperately bad for them.

646
00:34:07,862 --> 00:34:10,782
Speaker 3: After the break, the high profile artist who had some

647
00:34:10,902 --> 00:34:13,701
Speaker 3: feedback for his audience at a recent concert, We will

648
00:34:13,702 --> 00:34:14,342
Speaker 3: tell you more.

649
00:34:14,182 --> 00:34:14,702
Speaker 1: In a moment.

650
00:34:15,182 --> 00:34:18,942
Speaker 2: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday

651
00:34:18,982 --> 00:34:23,062
Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link

652
00:34:23,062 --> 00:34:24,822
Speaker 2: at the show notes to get us in your ears

653
00:34:25,062 --> 00:34:27,821
Speaker 2: five days a week. And a huge thank you to

654
00:34:27,982 --> 00:34:37,102
Speaker 2: all our current subscribers into mine.

655
00:34:39,261 --> 00:34:44,462
Speaker 3: All Nick cave Write a musician an actor wants you

656
00:34:44,502 --> 00:34:48,461
Speaker 3: to put your goddamn phone away at concerts. Earlier this month,

657
00:34:48,542 --> 00:34:51,302
Speaker 3: the sixty seven year old was performing in the US

658
00:34:51,701 --> 00:34:54,382
Speaker 3: when he knocked a phone out of a fan's hand

659
00:34:54,462 --> 00:34:58,982
Speaker 3: in frustration. There are reports that he has been frequently

660
00:34:59,102 --> 00:35:01,982
Speaker 3: imploring fans to put away their phones during performances on

661
00:35:02,022 --> 00:35:05,302
Speaker 3: this tour and instead try to connect with the music.

662
00:35:06,261 --> 00:35:08,821
Speaker 3: Cave is not the only artist who has had enough

663
00:35:08,942 --> 00:35:12,062
Speaker 3: with the phones. Randy Blythe, who is the lead singer

664
00:35:12,142 --> 00:35:15,181
Speaker 3: of a heavy metal band called Lamb of God, said

665
00:35:15,302 --> 00:35:18,221
Speaker 3: in a podcast interview last year, this is a quote.

666
00:35:18,582 --> 00:35:20,102
Speaker 3: I'm gonna set it down in the middle of the

667
00:35:20,102 --> 00:35:21,902
Speaker 3: stage after a song or two, and then I'm going

668
00:35:21,982 --> 00:35:24,022
Speaker 3: to turn on my phone and I'm going to point

669
00:35:24,062 --> 00:35:25,981
Speaker 3: it at the audience and I'm going to sit there

670
00:35:26,022 --> 00:35:27,861
Speaker 3: and I'm going to sing a whole song. I'm not

671
00:35:27,902 --> 00:35:30,341
Speaker 3: gonna move. I'm going to do what they do. And

672
00:35:30,382 --> 00:35:32,181
Speaker 3: then at the end, I'm going to say, did you

673
00:35:32,221 --> 00:35:33,022
Speaker 3: people enjoy that?

674
00:35:33,502 --> 00:35:33,661
Speaker 1: No?

675
00:35:33,942 --> 00:35:36,702
Speaker 3: I didn't either, So why don't we be here together?

676
00:35:37,022 --> 00:35:41,422
Speaker 3: Put your frickin' phone down. I had never considered before

677
00:35:41,582 --> 00:35:44,861
Speaker 3: what the experience of everyone watching a concert through their

678
00:35:44,902 --> 00:35:49,342
Speaker 3: phones would be like for the actual performer you perform,

679
00:35:49,661 --> 00:35:53,822
Speaker 3: especially like a Nick Cave who is a certified artiste,

680
00:35:54,302 --> 00:35:57,261
Speaker 3: because you want to connect and you want to see faces,

681
00:35:57,462 --> 00:36:02,582
Speaker 3: and instead they're being confronted with thousands of screens. Holly,

682
00:36:02,741 --> 00:36:04,661
Speaker 3: do you reckon that? Everyone should just put their phone down.

683
00:36:04,741 --> 00:36:05,422
Speaker 3: Isn't that simple.

684
00:36:05,781 --> 00:36:08,741
Speaker 2: I think everybody should put their phone down, not necessarily

685
00:36:08,741 --> 00:36:11,661
Speaker 2: because of the sense of artists, but because most of us.

686
00:36:12,102 --> 00:36:14,941
Speaker 2: Unless you're in the front row at a concert and

687
00:36:14,982 --> 00:36:17,341
Speaker 2: you get amazing footage that you can share with the

688
00:36:17,342 --> 00:36:19,181
Speaker 2: world and they all go, wow, that's what it's like

689
00:36:19,261 --> 00:36:21,741
Speaker 2: being front row. Taylors with what you actually get at

690
00:36:21,741 --> 00:36:24,422
Speaker 2: most concerts that you spent your whole night filming is

691
00:36:24,502 --> 00:36:26,821
Speaker 2: like a couple of blurry dots in the background and

692
00:36:26,902 --> 00:36:31,661
Speaker 2: your terrible voice really really loudly screaming the lyrics to

693
00:36:31,701 --> 00:36:35,181
Speaker 2: your favorite song, and then you're looking back and you're like,

694
00:36:35,622 --> 00:36:37,661
Speaker 2: why did I film that? I Am never going to

695
00:36:37,741 --> 00:36:41,062
Speaker 2: look at that ever again. So yes, I do. But

696
00:36:41,862 --> 00:36:45,142
Speaker 2: some artists do band phones, right, so Alicia Keys, Jack White,

697
00:36:45,142 --> 00:36:47,741
Speaker 2: they've banned phones before. I've been a big performance. It's

698
00:36:47,781 --> 00:36:50,381
Speaker 2: not concerts true before where you have to put your

699
00:36:50,382 --> 00:36:53,142
Speaker 2: phone in a yonder pouch like one of those fum

700
00:36:53,582 --> 00:36:56,942
Speaker 2: black bags. And I think if you're powerful enough you

701
00:36:56,982 --> 00:36:59,861
Speaker 2: can do that. It's very expensive to do that, but

702
00:36:59,902 --> 00:37:02,341
Speaker 2: then it comes with a downside because don't you want

703
00:37:02,342 --> 00:37:04,461
Speaker 2: everyone to see how good you are in concert? Mia,

704
00:37:04,542 --> 00:37:05,182
Speaker 2: what do you think.

705
00:37:05,542 --> 00:37:09,382
Speaker 1: I think that when we film at concerts, it's actually

706
00:37:09,822 --> 00:37:12,422
Speaker 1: not about the person we're filming, but it's about us

707
00:37:12,542 --> 00:37:16,462
Speaker 1: and our identity. Because, first of all, one thing that

708
00:37:16,502 --> 00:37:20,422
Speaker 1: the iPhone and smartphones have given us is this obsession

709
00:37:20,422 --> 00:37:24,582
Speaker 1: with documenting everything. But the reason we document it is

710
00:37:24,661 --> 00:37:29,301
Speaker 1: around identity and wanting other people to understand us. So

711
00:37:29,302 --> 00:37:32,542
Speaker 1: it's not so much about you know. Megan Michael on

712
00:37:32,582 --> 00:37:36,622
Speaker 1: the weekend posted shots and video of her and Harry

713
00:37:36,661 --> 00:37:38,502
Speaker 1: at the Beyonce concert with some friends.

714
00:37:38,542 --> 00:37:40,661
Speaker 2: Did she me or I missed that? I know, you

715
00:37:40,701 --> 00:37:41,422
Speaker 2: know I missed that.

716
00:37:42,302 --> 00:37:44,861
Speaker 1: I actually love that she's posting this kind of content. Now.

717
00:37:44,902 --> 00:37:46,781
Speaker 1: I think it's exactly the kind of content that she

718
00:37:46,822 --> 00:37:49,982
Speaker 1: should be posting. But it's not just actually about Beyonce,

719
00:37:50,102 --> 00:37:52,502
Speaker 1: because as you say, oh, I couldn't see Beyonce, I

720
00:37:52,502 --> 00:37:54,942
Speaker 1: couldn't really see anything. I could just see her and Harry.

721
00:37:55,062 --> 00:37:57,582
Speaker 1: So I'm not singling her out for this. This is

722
00:37:57,582 --> 00:37:59,262
Speaker 1: what we all tend to do. I did the exact

723
00:37:59,261 --> 00:38:01,701
Speaker 1: same thing when I went to see Taylor Swift. I

724
00:38:01,781 --> 00:38:04,301
Speaker 1: wanted to say, I am a person who goes and

725
00:38:04,342 --> 00:38:08,661
Speaker 1: sees Taylor Swift, and I like Taylor Swift, and it

726
00:38:08,701 --> 00:38:12,782
Speaker 1: was about what that's about me more than the tailor

727
00:38:12,822 --> 00:38:15,102
Speaker 1: of it all. But from an artist's point of view,

728
00:38:15,342 --> 00:38:19,142
Speaker 1: I also think you're playing for an audience who've paid

729
00:38:19,181 --> 00:38:21,982
Speaker 1: money to see you there, right, So the people in

730
00:38:22,022 --> 00:38:25,622
Speaker 1: that audience probably like you if they've spent, in most

731
00:38:25,622 --> 00:38:28,862
Speaker 1: cases hundreds of dollars to come and see you. But

732
00:38:28,902 --> 00:38:31,622
Speaker 1: as soon as they film something and put it online

733
00:38:31,701 --> 00:38:33,941
Speaker 1: to people who aren't invested in you in any way,

734
00:38:33,942 --> 00:38:36,022
Speaker 1: who paid no money to see you, who weren't there,

735
00:38:36,062 --> 00:38:39,102
Speaker 1: who didn't see the whole thing, suddenly that footage can

736
00:38:39,102 --> 00:38:42,301
Speaker 1: become weaponized. And we've really seen that with Katy Perry recently.

737
00:38:42,982 --> 00:38:45,142
Speaker 1: With Taylor Swift, it was different. There was lots of

738
00:38:45,181 --> 00:38:49,861
Speaker 1: stuff posted, and her fans really enjoyed watching the concerts

739
00:38:49,942 --> 00:38:51,821
Speaker 1: in other places and it was a sort of a

740
00:38:51,862 --> 00:38:54,821
Speaker 1: sense of community. It wasn't weaponized and used to humiliate

741
00:38:54,862 --> 00:38:58,022
Speaker 1: her or make a point about her, But with Katy

742
00:38:58,102 --> 00:39:02,261
Speaker 1: Perry it was. And immediately you kind of breached the

743
00:39:02,302 --> 00:39:05,342
Speaker 1: intimacy of a concert. Even if there's tens of thousands

744
00:39:05,382 --> 00:39:08,302
Speaker 1: of people that are there, they're all in this contract

745
00:39:08,302 --> 00:39:10,982
Speaker 1: with the performer that they really liked the performer. So

746
00:39:11,062 --> 00:39:13,301
Speaker 1: it's a self selected audience, but the Internet turns it

747
00:39:13,302 --> 00:39:13,981
Speaker 1: into something else.

748
00:39:14,102 --> 00:39:17,901
Speaker 3: Yeah, you strip it of all context, but there's a

749
00:39:18,022 --> 00:39:21,462
Speaker 3: propensity as well. And I am guilty of this as

750
00:39:21,542 --> 00:39:24,982
Speaker 3: much as anyone. That you have certain moments in life

751
00:39:25,062 --> 00:39:27,582
Speaker 3: where you think, I want everyone to feel what I

752
00:39:27,622 --> 00:39:31,422
Speaker 3: feel right now, and our impulse to capture that feeling

753
00:39:31,542 --> 00:39:34,262
Speaker 3: is to get our phone out. And it's always funny

754
00:39:34,302 --> 00:39:37,301
Speaker 3: because someone gets their phone out and takes a video

755
00:39:37,462 --> 00:39:39,062
Speaker 3: and no one can feel what you've felt in that

756
00:39:39,102 --> 00:39:41,301
Speaker 3: moment because they weren't in the room with you. In

757
00:39:41,422 --> 00:39:44,542
Speaker 3: saying that, Luca recently went and saw Hans Zimmer, who

758
00:39:44,582 --> 00:39:48,301
Speaker 3: is this incredible musician, and he came home and just said,

759
00:39:48,701 --> 00:39:51,102
Speaker 3: that was a spiritual experience. It was amazing. I loved it,

760
00:39:51,142 --> 00:39:53,422
Speaker 3: loved it, and it was a shame that I missed it.

761
00:39:53,462 --> 00:39:56,702
Speaker 3: I couldn't experience it with him. And we've been watching

762
00:39:56,741 --> 00:39:59,821
Speaker 3: tiktoks of it, and in fact I can feel it

763
00:39:59,862 --> 00:40:02,142
Speaker 3: a little bit. He did a lot of the music

764
00:40:02,181 --> 00:40:04,901
Speaker 3: behind The Lion King, and so seeing him do that

765
00:40:05,261 --> 00:40:09,861
Speaker 3: live and Interstellar and all of these incredible. It's an

766
00:40:09,942 --> 00:40:13,982
Speaker 3: orchestra on stage. Firstly, Luca can then show me what

767
00:40:14,062 --> 00:40:17,422
Speaker 3: he saw. And secondly, it is the best free publicity

768
00:40:17,462 --> 00:40:20,582
Speaker 3: any artist could ever hope for, because then that goes

769
00:40:20,661 --> 00:40:23,902
Speaker 3: viral and then you sell tickets, which is another reason.

770
00:40:23,982 --> 00:40:27,182
Speaker 3: I think probably a lot of artists are not saying

771
00:40:27,502 --> 00:40:28,942
Speaker 3: lock your phones away.

772
00:40:29,102 --> 00:40:30,901
Speaker 2: I think it should be up to them, though, don't

773
00:40:30,942 --> 00:40:33,502
Speaker 2: you like? I feel like if Nick cave like he

774
00:40:33,701 --> 00:40:36,782
Speaker 2: also at his shows in Lady Years, he also talks

775
00:40:36,822 --> 00:40:38,542
Speaker 2: a lot. He shares a lot about grief. It's one

776
00:40:38,582 --> 00:40:40,142
Speaker 2: of the things that's part of his show and is

777
00:40:40,221 --> 00:40:43,301
Speaker 2: sort of part talking, part music. And as you say, Jesse,

778
00:40:43,422 --> 00:40:45,422
Speaker 2: the idea of him doing that to just a wall

779
00:40:45,462 --> 00:40:48,901
Speaker 2: of screens, it would entirely change the experience. So I

780
00:40:48,942 --> 00:40:52,221
Speaker 2: sort of feel like the artist has every right to

781
00:40:52,302 --> 00:40:54,062
Speaker 2: tell you not to do it if they don't want

782
00:40:54,102 --> 00:40:55,062
Speaker 2: you to, don't you.

783
00:40:55,261 --> 00:40:57,542
Speaker 3: I reckon, it's got to be the policy. I mean,

784
00:40:57,701 --> 00:41:00,181
Speaker 3: you can have a policy that's put phones away. But

785
00:41:00,741 --> 00:41:04,461
Speaker 3: humans are, by nature we copy each other. So I've

786
00:41:04,502 --> 00:41:06,422
Speaker 3: been in situations where everyone has their phone out and

787
00:41:06,422 --> 00:41:08,381
Speaker 3: I go, oh, I guess we're filming this, and then

788
00:41:08,382 --> 00:41:09,942
Speaker 3: I kind of get my phone out and do the

789
00:41:09,942 --> 00:41:13,301
Speaker 3: same thing, which is what an audience will do. I

790
00:41:13,422 --> 00:41:16,181
Speaker 3: was looking at this story though, and for Nick Cave

791
00:41:16,261 --> 00:41:18,422
Speaker 3: to have knocked a phone out of someone's hand, they

792
00:41:18,502 --> 00:41:21,062
Speaker 3: must be pretty close, like to have.

793
00:41:21,142 --> 00:41:23,221
Speaker 2: Someone down arena shows. These are theaters.

794
00:41:23,302 --> 00:41:26,102
Speaker 3: Yeah, there is something intimate about that. There was footage

795
00:41:26,102 --> 00:41:28,941
Speaker 3: of him about six months ago saying film me, now

796
00:41:29,022 --> 00:41:31,982
Speaker 3: you've got your phones out, and then all of you

797
00:41:32,022 --> 00:41:34,861
Speaker 3: put your fucking phones away. Now the irony of that

798
00:41:35,502 --> 00:41:38,222
Speaker 3: is it guess how I know that happened. Someone filmed

799
00:41:38,261 --> 00:41:40,821
Speaker 3: it and put it on the internet. So everything you

800
00:41:40,862 --> 00:41:44,262
Speaker 3: say this has happened with Australian artists where they've gone

801
00:41:44,302 --> 00:41:47,661
Speaker 3: to make a point about a political issue on stage

802
00:41:48,142 --> 00:41:51,022
Speaker 3: that makes sense within context, that starts with one thing,

803
00:41:51,022 --> 00:41:53,181
Speaker 3: it ends with another thing, and you cut the fifteen

804
00:41:53,221 --> 00:41:55,181
Speaker 3: seconds and then that goes viral and then they get

805
00:41:55,221 --> 00:41:59,021
Speaker 3: canceled for something that wasn't all within context. I've felt

806
00:41:59,022 --> 00:42:00,901
Speaker 3: that at our live shows, where I've thought, oh, if

807
00:42:00,902 --> 00:42:04,942
Speaker 3: someone just filmed that twenty seconds, that would not be

808
00:42:05,102 --> 00:42:07,861
Speaker 3: very flattering, and it can make you feel unsafe and

809
00:42:07,942 --> 00:42:11,822
Speaker 3: make for a much worse show. If you don't want phones,

810
00:42:12,462 --> 00:42:14,781
Speaker 3: you probably just have to make it the policy and

811
00:42:14,822 --> 00:42:15,942
Speaker 3: say all phones away.

812
00:42:15,982 --> 00:42:18,741
Speaker 2: I don't think you can have both I agree.

813
00:42:18,582 --> 00:42:21,381
Speaker 1: Phones are the new autographs. Selfies of the new autographs.

814
00:42:21,422 --> 00:42:24,622
Speaker 1: It's like I was there. I had this proximity to

815
00:42:24,701 --> 00:42:29,382
Speaker 1: this person irl ironically not through a screen or you know,

816
00:42:29,701 --> 00:42:32,742
Speaker 1: through a speaker, but I was actually there. But something

817
00:42:32,741 --> 00:42:34,982
Speaker 1: that is not helpful to do if this happened to me.

818
00:42:35,102 --> 00:42:37,221
Speaker 1: A couple of weeks ago, I had a friend who

819
00:42:37,261 --> 00:42:41,022
Speaker 1: went to this concert, loved it, came back and wanted

820
00:42:41,062 --> 00:42:43,821
Speaker 1: to play everybody this clip from the concert. And I

821
00:42:43,862 --> 00:42:46,622
Speaker 1: was like, if I wanted to watch this person, I

822
00:42:46,622 --> 00:42:49,302
Speaker 1: would have gone to the concert. Like, I'm not that interested.

823
00:42:49,342 --> 00:42:51,022
Speaker 1: But then when someone hands you their phone and says,

824
00:42:51,062 --> 00:42:53,502
Speaker 1: watch this, you're a bit stuck.

825
00:42:54,181 --> 00:42:57,341
Speaker 3: There's another artist as well who has said you would

826
00:42:57,382 --> 00:42:58,821
Speaker 3: not believe how awkward it is. I don't know if

827
00:42:58,862 --> 00:43:02,062
Speaker 3: you've seen this online, but people at a concert and

828
00:43:02,062 --> 00:43:05,382
Speaker 3: they're not filming the performer, they're filming themselves.

829
00:43:06,622 --> 00:43:07,822
Speaker 2: Happened a lot of Taylor.

830
00:43:08,661 --> 00:43:10,422
Speaker 1: Yeah, Taylor, that's constant.

831
00:43:10,942 --> 00:43:13,022
Speaker 2: I feel like there should be a window. I feel

832
00:43:13,022 --> 00:43:15,102
Speaker 2: like there should be a window that is allowed where

833
00:43:15,102 --> 00:43:18,422
Speaker 2: you go. Right, I'm about what's like we're about to

834
00:43:18,462 --> 00:43:20,542
Speaker 2: do shake it off or whatever we're about to do.

835
00:43:21,062 --> 00:43:25,781
Speaker 2: Everybody go Ham with your phones, but then come back

836
00:43:25,781 --> 00:43:29,062
Speaker 2: to us, because it does take you far away. And

837
00:43:29,102 --> 00:43:31,102
Speaker 2: I drove a whole car of teenagers back from a

838
00:43:31,142 --> 00:43:34,381
Speaker 2: concert recently and had to, to your point, Mia, listen

839
00:43:34,462 --> 00:43:38,982
Speaker 2: to their entire concert with again them screaming really loudly

840
00:43:39,102 --> 00:43:40,701
Speaker 2: at the top of their voice, and I know what

841
00:43:40,741 --> 00:43:41,701
Speaker 2: hell is now?

842
00:43:41,902 --> 00:43:43,862
Speaker 1: What They've playing their videos in the car.

843
00:43:43,701 --> 00:43:45,502
Speaker 2: Because they were just choosing which bits they were going

844
00:43:45,582 --> 00:43:47,341
Speaker 2: to post and their sharing with each other, and it

845
00:43:47,422 --> 00:43:48,381
Speaker 2: was very much the thing.

846
00:43:48,582 --> 00:43:51,741
Speaker 3: And it's just them just going aha at the top

847
00:43:51,781 --> 00:43:54,741
Speaker 3: of their voices, this artist said. He said, there is

848
00:43:54,822 --> 00:43:58,701
Speaker 3: nothing more awkward than watching someone film themselves. Listening to me,

849
00:43:59,261 --> 00:44:03,341
Speaker 3: it is the most It is no longer a connecting experience.

850
00:44:03,542 --> 00:44:06,262
Speaker 3: It is a bizarrely isolated one.

851
00:44:06,542 --> 00:44:09,102
Speaker 1: Out Louders, We'll be seeing you in Brisbane on Wednesday

852
00:44:09,102 --> 00:44:12,062
Speaker 1: this week and in Sydney on Saturday. What's going to happen?

853
00:44:12,062 --> 00:44:13,982
Speaker 1: Will you film us? We'll wholly knock your phone out

854
00:44:13,982 --> 00:44:17,702
Speaker 1: of your hand. Might Jesse flash you? Unlikely, but could happen.

855
00:44:18,221 --> 00:44:20,582
Speaker 2: A massive thank you out Louders for being with us

856
00:44:20,622 --> 00:44:23,181
Speaker 2: today on Monday's show, and to our fabulous team for

857
00:44:23,221 --> 00:44:25,781
Speaker 2: putting the show together a higher degree of difficulty when

858
00:44:25,822 --> 00:44:28,542
Speaker 2: we are all in different places. We are going to

859
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Speaker 2: be back in your ears tomorrow.

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Speaker 3: Bye bye bye.

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Speaker 1: Shout out to any Muma Miya subscribers listening. If you

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Speaker 1: love the show and want to support us as well,

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00:44:38,701 --> 00:44:41,102
Speaker 1: subscribing to mom and Miya is the very best way

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Speaker 1: to do so. There is a link in the episode

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Speaker 1: description