Speaker 1: I feel embarrassed and the shame as a man that
Speaker 1: we are responsible for this. There's no getting around that.
Speaker 2: Welcome to but are you happy I'm a shiny Dante.
Speaker 2: With the rise of the manisphere, more women are feeling
Speaker 2: concerned while many teenage boys and young men are struggling.
Speaker 2: There's a growing gap where real connection and community used
Speaker 2: to be, and into that space steps online figures offering belonging,
Speaker 2: but often promoting ideas about masculinity, money, and relationships that
Speaker 2: can be misleading and harmful. Ben Vassilo is the CEO
Speaker 2: of the man Ca, a preventive mental health charity supporting
Speaker 2: teenage boys and young men. In this conversation, he speaks
Speaker 2: candidly about what it means to be a man today,
Speaker 2: the impact male behavior is having on women and girls,
Speaker 2: and what's really been sending these online spaces. We also
Speaker 2: explore how young men can find healthier and more meaningful
Speaker 2: forms of connection and how ideas of masculinity are evolving.
Speaker 2: This conversation matters because discussions around gender can often be
Speaker 2: had in silo, and this is about finding a way
Speaker 2: forward together. Just a note in this episode, we refer
Speaker 2: to women and men and female and male while fully
Speaker 2: respecting all gender identities. Today's conversation focuses on this topic
Speaker 2: through the lens of the work we do. Here's our conversation,
Speaker 2: Ben Ashani, Welcome to But are you happy? I am
Speaker 2: very excited for this conversation. I feel like there is
Speaker 2: a lot to be unpacked in today's episode. But I
Speaker 2: feel like before we get into everything and unpack the
Speaker 2: landscape and masculinity the rise of the matter sphere, I
Speaker 2: actually want to start off by getting to know you
Speaker 2: and our listeners to get to know you. So the
Speaker 2: question I have is what was your perspective on masculinity
Speaker 2: growing up?
Speaker 1: Wow? What a way to start, just drop straight into masculinity.
Speaker 1: In all honesty, I think my early experiences of masculinity
Speaker 1: manhood were role models of what not to do. Like,
Speaker 1: if I really think about it now, I can sit
Speaker 1: back and reflect and know like my dad was probably
Speaker 1: the closest man in my life. He was around consistently
Speaker 1: until I was about eleven or twelve, and he did
Speaker 1: his best. You know, I've got hindsight now, but he
Speaker 1: was quick to temper, he was pretty quick to anger,
Speaker 1: really struggled to manage his emotions, and that would come
Speaker 1: out in different ways and sort of some unhealthy behaviors,
Speaker 1: but also there were some good things, particularly the kind
Speaker 1: of more traditional forms of masculinity around Provider Protector. He
Speaker 1: was really courageous and really strong and really present in
Speaker 1: those ways, really good with sports. But yeah, in the
Speaker 1: more sort of modern concepts of masculinity, the things that
Speaker 1: we're trying to expand on, not so great, I think
Speaker 1: later on in life. I've been married twice, hopefully not
Speaker 1: a third time. But in my first marriage, my father
Speaker 1: in law was definitely like the masculine archetype that I've
Speaker 1: aspired to be, really clever, witty. He was an old
Speaker 1: school artist. He used to draw the houses in the
Speaker 1: real estate section in the newspapers. Yeah, before that, they
Speaker 1: used to be They used to be a clever, witty
Speaker 1: into politics, current affairs, but also like rides his Harley
Speaker 1: has his cars. Could sit down and have a nice
Speaker 1: class of red and have like a really interesting conversation.
Speaker 1: But the thing that I learned from him was that
Speaker 1: he just loved his wife, my ex mother in law,
Speaker 1: who I'm still close with. Both of them, they're just
Speaker 1: like a loving bond and like their beautiful relationship with
Speaker 1: something that I could learn from, So a bit of
Speaker 1: like what not to do, and then a little bit
Speaker 1: of like what to do, and then trying to form.
Speaker 3: My own Yeah. Wow.
Speaker 2: So it's really amazing just to hear from all of
Speaker 2: those moments how you could see the and breath of masculinity.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I think that's how we learn, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And I think just lucky there was like
Speaker 1: no digital age with movies, TVs, magazines. Yes, but I'm
Speaker 1: so glad I did not have social media that young.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's a different time we're living in. And
Speaker 2: do you feel like, I know, you kind of spoke
Speaker 2: a bit around the role models in your life, the
Speaker 2: things that you loved and probably you didn't want to
Speaker 2: take on board, But was there a specific moment in
Speaker 2: your life where you felt like you realized that young
Speaker 2: men were really struggling emotionally.
Speaker 1: Yes. I think I had my own struggles in my
Speaker 1: early years. So if I reflect back on my own
Speaker 1: kind of teenagehood journey into young manhood, there was a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff going on. So my mom passed when
Speaker 1: I was sixteen and sort of went through my own
Speaker 1: challenges of feeling depressed and anxious and kind of where
Speaker 1: where do I fit in the world. So I have
Speaker 1: my own personal experience. But about ten years later, after
Speaker 1: I started as a youth worker and then was working
Speaker 1: in kind of social impact and having run social services,
Speaker 1: I was like, hold on a second, Like, we've got
Speaker 1: a pretty big issue in our hands, men's mental health,
Speaker 1: men's identity is a really big challenge that's showing up
Speaker 1: in the deficit based outcome. So I've worked in family violence,
Speaker 1: I've worked in homelessness, I've worked in addiction, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: hold on, we have a challenge on our hands that
Speaker 1: we're really not addressing. So I think in my sort
Speaker 1: of mid to late twenties is when I started to
Speaker 1: investigate and get a bit curious about it, start to
Speaker 1: really lean on my mates and start to ask them
Speaker 1: about their experiences. But over the last couple of years,
Speaker 1: I think with my work at the man Cave, it's
Speaker 1: become really obvious that we have some big challenges ahead
Speaker 1: of us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and actually yeah, it leads me to my
Speaker 2: next question, because I think the state of masculinity, there's
Speaker 2: all a lot going on, and the rise of the
Speaker 2: manisfee is obviously a very hot topic in media at
Speaker 2: the moment. So for those that are tuning in right
Speaker 2: now and have heard bits and pieces about the manisfee
Speaker 2: but don't actually know what it is, can you unpack
Speaker 2: what is the manisphere?
Speaker 1: I feel like there's people way more qualified than me,
Speaker 1: but the manisphere is the perfect shit storm. It's you know,
Speaker 1: I had to explain actually to my auntie the other day.
Speaker 1: I really wanted her to watch the Louis Throw documentary
Speaker 1: and I was like, watch it, and she's like, what
Speaker 1: is it? Is it like one of those apps like Facebook,
Speaker 1: And I was like, okay, sit down on the cat.
Speaker 1: This is going to take more than it is a
Speaker 1: It is a network of just really harmful, unhealthy content
Speaker 1: disguised in entertainment or healthy advice, for particularly teenage boys
Speaker 1: and young men. But the manus for itself is constantly evolving.
Speaker 1: So what was like a focus on Andrew take kind
Speaker 1: of telling people to like be dominant, be aggressive, take control,
Speaker 1: women want to be controlled and dominated has kind of
Speaker 1: really taken off kind of like a bush fire. And
Speaker 1: now there's so many layers and complex it is and
Speaker 1: nuances and different trends and algorithms, and what it actually
Speaker 1: is is a bunch of unhealed immature men in teenage
Speaker 1: sorry teenage boys in men's bodies, spouting content that is
Speaker 1: clear and concise messaging that they know will cut through
Speaker 1: the algorithm. Get jacked, get ripped, get a girl, take control. Honestly,
Speaker 1: it's insanity. The challenge that we have with the manisphere
Speaker 1: is it's a business model. So we're starting to expose
Speaker 1: the fact that these influencers, content creators and man influencers
Speaker 1: I like to call them, are actually selling subscriptions to
Speaker 1: their online entrepreneurial college or they're selling peptides or testosterone
Speaker 1: or whatever you know, pt and online gym sessions, and
Speaker 1: they're using the naivety but also perhaps the vulnerabilities of
Speaker 1: teenagers and young men to come and arrive at really
Speaker 1: clear and concise messaging, which there are too because it's simple,
Speaker 1: but it's super harmful, super unhealthy. It's on every single platform,
Speaker 1: it's on every single app, there's content creators from around
Speaker 1: the world, and yeah, it's pretty scary stuff actually.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean kind of speaking to the harmful effects,
Speaker 2: like what do you feel are the most dangerous ideas
Speaker 2: that young men are absorbing from the Manisphere.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's two things a kind of live
Speaker 1: for me in that. The first is the young men
Speaker 1: consuming the content. I'm going to cop a little bit
Speaker 1: for just being so direct about how terrible the manisphere is.
Speaker 1: There's lots of people trying to justify it and say
Speaker 1: that it's good advice. No, no, no, no no. The first
Speaker 1: bit is it's harming young men who are consuming in
Speaker 1: the content. A lot of the young men that I've
Speaker 1: worked with, and that the man Cave supports asking questions
Speaker 1: or trying to discover things online like how do I
Speaker 1: make money and get rich? How do I get a
Speaker 1: great job and not have to work nine to five?
Speaker 1: Or how do I ask a girl out? How do
Speaker 1: I go to girl to kiss me? They're kind of
Speaker 1: like trual, naive kind of questions seeking advice, or they're
Speaker 1: liking and engaging with content which then very quickly escalates
Speaker 1: into harmful content. And that's the gateway that we need
Speaker 1: to keep an eye on, because young men are then
Speaker 1: consuming all of this stuff where a guy's rocking around
Speaker 1: in a Lamborghini live in Miami and I'm like, yeah, dude,
Speaker 1: I believe in one way monogamy. That's not one way
Speaker 1: monogamy is not a thing, like unless you sign up
Speaker 1: for its consensual. Fantastic, But all of this stuff, these
Speaker 1: boys are like this is real and it's not. It's
Speaker 1: all a facade. As mansions are rented, you know, they're
Speaker 1: paying for that rent with a subscription that you buy
Speaker 1: from their entrepreneurial college. So there's the young men that
Speaker 1: are being harmed because it's not attainable. Yeah, and they're
Speaker 1: being harmed in a mental health sense, thinking that this
Speaker 1: is a way to feel better, get better. But actually
Speaker 1: it's not healthy content. It's not good advice.
Speaker 3: It's like a false narrative.
Speaker 1: Correct. Yeah, yeah, you've got much better language than I do.
Speaker 1: What I wanted to say, Boss, It's really much like
Speaker 1: a false narrative. Some of it's good though, like some
Speaker 1: advice out there. This is the thing about the manisphere
Speaker 1: is there's small pieces that get attributed to the manisphere
Speaker 1: that's not like good advice around like building a career
Speaker 1: or getting a trade or starting a business, or asking respectfully,
Speaker 1: how do I ask a girl out? What is consent? Mean?
Speaker 1: These are all good things, but young men mental health
Speaker 1: not great. But also they are impacting the second cohor
Speaker 1: that I really want to focus on, which is particularly
Speaker 1: young women and girls, also queer people and people from
Speaker 1: sort of minority populations, particularly here in Australia, the multicultural community.
Speaker 1: But the impact on women and girls is super concerning
Speaker 1: because oi young man observes, takes behavior, Where does the
Speaker 1: impact land totally women and girls. That's super concerning, super
Speaker 1: concerning for everyone. The challenge that we have is that
Speaker 1: there's this conflation between men's accountability and consequences and the
Speaker 1: impact on women. Both can be true at the same time.
Speaker 1: But I'm really concerned about the women and girls because
Speaker 1: what I'm noticing is, particularly online, this increased subscription or
Speaker 1: adherence to what the boys and men are saying, this
Speaker 1: treadwife concept or the man should go out and work
Speaker 1: and provide for the woman and the woman should stay home. Again,
Speaker 1: if that's your consensual decision as a partnership, great, but
Speaker 1: it's actually not because what we're seeing is sexual assault.
Speaker 1: What we're seeing is sexual violence, what we're seeing is aggression.
Speaker 1: What we're seeing is dominance, and it's not healthy for anyone.
Speaker 2: I think since the manosphere has been getting a lot
Speaker 2: more attention, it's really easy to focus on the young boys,
Speaker 2: but also we forget to also focus on the young
Speaker 2: women who are actually kind of in the shadows of
Speaker 2: these conversations. So it's really great that we're having these
Speaker 2: conversations now to really bring to life if we really
Speaker 2: want gender equality, where we've got to equally look at
Speaker 2: what's happening in these spaces.
Speaker 1: Well, if I can say just one thing that's super
Speaker 1: important is that the manisphere is saying all of the
Speaker 1: challenges of men and boys. So there are and it's true,
Speaker 1: and there's valid boys performance in school is behind girls.
Speaker 1: There's challenges around boys graduation from university or tayte for whatever.
Speaker 1: There are challenges out there. But what the manisphere is
Speaker 1: feeding the boys is it's the fault of feminism. So
Speaker 1: women rising is to the detriment of men, and that's
Speaker 1: not true. Women rising list everyone up, just like if
Speaker 1: we help boys, that list everyone up. So we really
Speaker 1: have to make sure we make the distinction that this
Speaker 1: is not the fault of feminism. Feminism is coming from
Speaker 1: a long way back. Remember when women literally couldn't vote
Speaker 1: but couldn't get alone, which so terribly for so long.
Speaker 1: And they're rising, and then there's this manus feming like
Speaker 1: labor on the women. Yeah, come on, we've got to
Speaker 1: like cut.
Speaker 3: Through that's not true totally.
Speaker 2: A lot of critical thinking that needs to be had
Speaker 2: and a lot of conversations to be had, because I
Speaker 2: think a lot of these gendered conversations can be had
Speaker 2: in siloed and that's where I think a lot of
Speaker 2: them misunderstanding happens. Whereas you know, I've listened to a
Speaker 2: podcast recently where someone was talking about how someone stepped
Speaker 2: out of the manisphere and the way that he stepped
Speaker 2: out of it was because he actually just had a
Speaker 2: chat with a woman, And it was so interesting because
Speaker 2: that just goes to show the illusions, the stories, the
Speaker 2: wounds we keep ourselves trapped in. I'm not able to
Speaker 2: step more into the expansion of possibility.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: And also the thing that stands out for me having
Speaker 1: had a number of conversations with people that have kind
Speaker 1: of escaped the manisphere, rehabilitated from the manisphere based on
Speaker 1: the hard labor of women again, women identifying that might
Speaker 1: not be healthy, women identifying that that's probably not a
Speaker 1: good thing to think, feel, behave, or act, or the
Speaker 1: right person to be consuming content from. So we also
Speaker 1: have to be conscious that, like, once again we're calling
Speaker 1: on women to do the hard work totally for men
Speaker 1: to actually be thinking critically about the content that they see. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the interesting thing that I want to mark about the
Speaker 1: manisphere is that there is so much conjecture in the
Speaker 1: community about the manisphere because an older cohort of men
Speaker 1: are actually subscribing and adhering to what the manusfet.
Speaker 3: You're a saying, what do you mean by conjecture?
Speaker 1: Well, there's this kind of like men are pushing back
Speaker 1: that the manusphe isn't all bad.
Speaker 3: Interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, lots of conversations I'm involved in where men are
Speaker 1: saying the manisphe is not a bad thing. It's not
Speaker 1: all bad, not all men.
Speaker 2: What's interesting that you're saying that, Oh my god, there's
Speaker 2: like so much there's.
Speaker 3: So many things.
Speaker 1: We could be here for a few hours.
Speaker 2: More of my conversation with Ben after the short break,
Speaker 2: I want to read something out and I'm keen to
Speaker 2: get your thoughts on it. So, around fifty eight women
Speaker 2: were killed by violence across Australia in twenty twenty five,
Speaker 2: mainly perpetrated by men. How do you feel when you
Speaker 2: hear statistics like that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's hard to have words, but we must.
Speaker 1: The number of women and children that are dying at
Speaker 1: the hands of men is an absolute crisis and it
Speaker 1: should be treated as such. It makes me feel disgusted.
Speaker 1: It makes me feel shameful, embarrassed, sad, angry, all of
Speaker 1: the emotions. I'm from Melbourne, so I've seen the mural
Speaker 1: on hose Elane. I think Schrell Moody from the Femicide
Speaker 1: Watch was collating pictures of women that have been killed
Speaker 1: at the hands of men, and unfortunately it had been
Speaker 1: taken down recently, but I've seen it, and I work
Speaker 1: in a space that is promoting gender equity and healthy
Speaker 1: masculinities and how that connects to the empowerment of women
Speaker 1: and girls. It makes me feel terribly sad. I feel
Speaker 1: like we're not moving fast enough. I feel like we're
Speaker 1: not working at all ends of the spectrum. So if
Speaker 1: we think about actually really ending gender violence and doing
Speaker 1: it as quickly as we possibly can, we need prevention,
Speaker 1: we need early intervention, we need crisis and response, healing
Speaker 1: and recovery. None of those four quadrants of the spectrum
Speaker 1: are well funded enough, and there's not enough or sufficient
Speaker 1: policy from all levels of government to intervene. So there
Speaker 1: can be a feeling of despair, but also there's hope
Speaker 1: out there, like the women's organizations, the feminist led organizations,
Speaker 1: particularly in the intervention, crisis response, healing and recovery, are
Speaker 1: doing phenomenal work. On the smell of an oily rag,
Speaker 1: I must say, the federal government has put such a
Speaker 1: significant investment, the biggest investment in ending general violence and
Speaker 1: family violence. So there is hope coming. It's just not
Speaker 1: moving as fast as I would. I have so many
Speaker 1: mixed emotions. I think about this constantly. Yeah, it's a
Speaker 1: sad state of affairs. And if it was a physical condition,
Speaker 1: if it was a cancer, if it was a medical diagnosis,
Speaker 1: we'd be moving so much quicker, so much quicker than
Speaker 1: what we are. But I also don't want to devalue
Speaker 1: the work of the amazing people out there, the practitioners,
Speaker 1: the researchers, the leaders, the CEOs, the activists, the advocates.
Speaker 1: They're doing a phenomenal amount of work. This is our
Speaker 1: window and.
Speaker 2: It's really beautiful to hear you vulnerability in that as well,
Speaker 2: And there's some like strong emotions there too. But also
Speaker 2: I'm really intrigued. When you say shame and embarrassment, you
Speaker 2: ever unpacked that a little bit more?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel I feel embarrassed and the shame as
Speaker 1: a man that we are responsible for this. There's no
Speaker 1: getting around that. And the bit that is embarrassing is
Speaker 1: someone at some point in time is going to listen
Speaker 1: or hear about this podcast and shit post a comment
Speaker 1: that says, what about women's violence against men? Not all men?
Speaker 1: You know, there's still that school of thinking. I know
Speaker 1: we can't reach all the edges of society, but I
Speaker 1: talk to a lot of men. I spend a lot
Speaker 1: of time not in ivory towers, in community chatting to people.
Speaker 1: And I just feel a bit shameful and embarrassed. And
Speaker 1: that's just my own guilt, I suppose. But also I
Speaker 1: have a sixteen year old daughter, you know, and I
Speaker 1: know that over her lifetime it is very very likely
Speaker 1: that she will experience some level of violence, and that
Speaker 1: that really scares me. That really scares me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a hard one to sit with. I feel
Speaker 3: a bit emotional.
Speaker 2: Yeah, same, Ah, I just need to take some water, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: Do it.
Speaker 1: It's so difficult. I don't think we sit in like
Speaker 1: the vulnerable spaces enough. And I'm not the expert on this,
Speaker 1: but and I don't want to be scomo. It's like
Speaker 1: my wife and my daughter said, but it's like when
Speaker 1: I visualize that, I visualized my daughter.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's it's hard.
Speaker 1: And I visualize my wife and my sisters and my niece,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, it's like that's a reality. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: live a different life.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I feel a tiny, tiny, tiny piece of the fear
Speaker 1: bit being queer when I was coming out, being a
Speaker 1: bit scared of what people would feel in judge and
Speaker 1: maybe feeling not so safe walking around Chapel Straight at nighttime.
Speaker 1: There's a tiny piece of me that's felt it, but
Speaker 1: not this much. Yeah, you know, luck, I actively will
Speaker 1: not let my daughter go out on her own at
Speaker 1: nighttime at sixteen. It's just not happening.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's so many other layers you've got to think
Speaker 2: about as a woman. Yeah, And I think it's somewhat
Speaker 2: refreshing and healing to hear how much you get that
Speaker 2: as well. I think so often, like I think when
Speaker 2: you were talking about you mentioned not all men and
Speaker 2: how like that's a phrase that does come up and
Speaker 2: it gets me thinking like, are men just using those
Speaker 2: words to avoid responsibility for a broader cultural issue that's
Speaker 2: going on.
Speaker 1: Well, there's a shift in power, right, There's a real
Speaker 1: shift empower happening across the world. And I am surrounded
Speaker 1: by so many wonderful men, brilliant, beautiful, just clever men
Speaker 1: who get it and who understand that the rise of
Speaker 1: women is a really good thing for all of us.
Speaker 1: The rise engineer equity is a really good thing for
Speaker 1: all of us. But it also requires change. The way
Speaker 1: that our fathers parented us and their fathers parented them
Speaker 1: needs to evolve. But evolution is a good thing. We
Speaker 1: shouldn't be resisting it totally. Even the fact that my
Speaker 1: sixteen year old daughter is pushing back with independence and
Speaker 1: wants to go out and puts all of the safety
Speaker 1: mechanisms in place, that doesn't stop me feeling super protective
Speaker 1: of her, but that I need to sit with that
Speaker 1: and unpack that and be like, you know, why is
Speaker 1: it that I'm feeling like that. I need to give
Speaker 1: her some trust, I need to let her be her
Speaker 1: own person. So there's lots of different mixed emotions, but
Speaker 1: men need to sit in discomfort. We need to sit
Speaker 1: in shitty feelings and understand it without reacting, without getting angry,
Speaker 1: and just being like, what does this mean for me?
Speaker 1: What does it mean for the people around me? Why
Speaker 1: am I feeling this? There is a structural, systemic move,
Speaker 1: but it is going to be hard fought and take
Speaker 1: some time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and do you feel like well, I don't know
Speaker 2: if you noticed. There was an online trend around the
Speaker 2: bear or man yes as well, and just for context
Speaker 2: for listeners, women were asked like, if you wanted to,
Speaker 2: if you had to be alone in the forest, would
Speaker 2: you choose a man or a bear?
Speaker 3: And a lot of them chose a bear.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm keen to hear, Like, what are your thoughts
Speaker 2: on that, because obviously this is like reinforcing the gender
Speaker 2: based violence that currently exists in the world.
Speaker 1: So very recently there's been a discovery, I think by
Speaker 1: CNBC that there was a particular website that was promoting
Speaker 1: it was a place where mainly men could come together
Speaker 1: share actual real life footage or tips and tricks on
Speaker 1: how to sexually assault and rape women, and there was
Speaker 1: something like sixty two million visitors. Beneath it was about
Speaker 1: one thousand active users of a telegram group sharing different
Speaker 1: resources on sleep sets, they would call it. So if
Speaker 1: we kind of just zoom back out, think about why
Speaker 1: women would choose the bear over men. A very very
Speaker 1: beautiful friend of mine, she's a clinical midwife, educator, she's
Speaker 1: got two beautiful children, posted about this on her social media,
Speaker 1: and then the next story was, this is why we
Speaker 1: choose the bear. I also get how it distances men
Speaker 1: from the conversation, but it distances men who are not
Speaker 1: prepared to learn and understand where women are coming from.
Speaker 1: The women aren't saying not all men are bad. What
Speaker 1: they're saying is all men have a responsibility to play.
Speaker 1: They need to be accountable for not just their behavior,
Speaker 1: but the men around them. And when I see it,
Speaker 1: I go, you know what, I understand. I get it.
Speaker 1: It's just treated so much like this gender equity piece
Speaker 1: and men and women all genders. It's being treated like
Speaker 1: a zero sum game, like if we help men, women lose,
Speaker 1: if we help women, men lose, Like where's the moderate
Speaker 1: middle where we all r We're all not. Yeah, we're
Speaker 1: going to have to make some adjustments and change and
Speaker 1: maybe sacrifice, but everyone can win. Is that not what
Speaker 1: humanity is supposed to be about it.
Speaker 3: That's really simple, right, You're like, why why? Yeah, I'm
Speaker 3: pretty sure.
Speaker 2: But yeah, there's so many complexities to.
Speaker 1: That, right, men are holding on to power.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1: Like insert Donald Trump.
Speaker 2: So there's misogynistic figures like Andrew Tate that often argue
Speaker 2: that a woman's worth is tied exclusively to her physical appearance, youth,
Speaker 2: and capacity for obedience. Do the young men you work
Speaker 2: with believe this?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think like a very small percentage of boys
Speaker 1: and young men that we're working with. We'll talk about it,
Speaker 1: so I can't give you a hard fart statistic about
Speaker 1: it. It believes it. But I think because we create a
Speaker 1: safe space, and what does that actually mean? That that
Speaker 1: actually means about holding a space where boys feel comfortable
Speaker 1: to lean into the messy, sometimes politically incorrect conversations. And
Speaker 1: that's not colluding with them. It's about creating an opportunity
Speaker 1: to ask why and figuring out what's live for them.
Speaker 1: Because a lot of adults in young boys and young
Speaker 1: men's lives will immediately go into course correct judgment mode.
Speaker 1: And yes, the consequences accountability not justifying that. But what
Speaker 1: boys often need is a bit of curiosity. One of
Speaker 1: the strategies we have that the man cave is like
Speaker 1: the Six Wives. But how many times you have to
Speaker 1: ask why for them to really question.
Speaker 3: What they're saying? You keep digging.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Layers, there's a chunk of boys that parrot. They're
Speaker 1: the pirates parrot, you know that just repeat what they've heard.
Speaker 1: Let's be honest. We've heard reports of boys telling female
Speaker 1: teachers get back in the kitchen. Again. That is not
Speaker 1: I'm not seeing that, like you know, across a large
Speaker 1: percentage of schools or boys that we work with, But
Speaker 1: teachers are reporting that experience, so that is true. There's
Speaker 1: a number of boys just in in the middle, confused,
Speaker 1: being like we don't actually know what is like good
Speaker 1: and bad content entertained, right, Like is looks back seeing
Speaker 1: really a thing? Or are we just laughing at it?
Speaker 1: But for a small percentage of boys, they believe it.
Speaker 1: They believe that they need to, you know, look chiseled
Speaker 1: and look amazing to attract females into their life.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: And then there's a small percentage at the top that
Speaker 1: I'm really concerned about. And they're not telling you. They're
Speaker 1: not talking to us, they're not talking to you, they're
Speaker 1: difficult to engage with, and they're disconnected and withdrawn. They
Speaker 1: may show up physically, they may show up with presents,
Speaker 1: but they're not talking about it. Let's be honest that
Speaker 1: those boys are locked into the manisphere and we need
Speaker 1: to do more work to reach them.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and because there's so many layers
Speaker 2: to it too, because I know obviously with the work
Speaker 2: with the Flourish Journey working in schools of teenage girls,
Speaker 2: and the things that we're hearing because of the impact
Speaker 2: of the matisphere is that you know, girls are feeling
Speaker 2: really scared.
Speaker 3: You know, like I.
Speaker 2: Always get emotional, want to talk about teen age girls. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they're feeling really scared, and they're feeling really unsafe, and
Speaker 2: they're noticing changes in boys where you know, like they
Speaker 2: see the difference when they have a male friend on
Speaker 2: his own to when he's in a group of friends,
Speaker 2: like he can change, and like that's a lot and
Speaker 2: I think it's really hard because not only that, but
Speaker 2: you've got figures like the misogynistic figures like Andrew Tate
Speaker 2: that are telling girls like, oh, women need to look good,
Speaker 2: and that's like further perpetuating the problem with body image issues.
Speaker 2: So it's like it's like no one wins and and
Speaker 2: girls are really struggling, and I think it's it's a
Speaker 2: hard one to sit with. But it's also really interesting
Speaker 2: to hear kind of the spectrum of what always is saying,
Speaker 2: because like, how do they view women when you do
Speaker 2: talk about young women in workshops?
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the hope. So a vast majority of
Speaker 1: boys who come to our workshops or programs, we run
Speaker 1: a variety of different experiences like the Flourished Journey. We've
Speaker 1: shared those different types of experiences, but boys will often
Speaker 1: talk like we run the old Richmond Footy Club of
Speaker 1: it's called triple H hero, hardship, highlight, and a large
Speaker 1: percentage of the times for the boys, it's about a
Speaker 1: woman in their life, mom, grandma, sister, aren't friend where
Speaker 1: they're sharing these stories, whether they're face to hardship or
Speaker 1: someone sick or someone that's unfortunately passed away. But a
Speaker 1: lot of the time, the hero or the highlight is
Speaker 1: about how their mum hypes them up or supports someone
Speaker 1: takes care of them. So in the workshops, I'm always
Speaker 1: there is hope. A vast majority of the boys that
Speaker 1: we work with talk about girls and women in a
Speaker 1: really healthy way. Now, we're not there when the banter
Speaker 1: is going on, so we try and do like we
Speaker 1: have these activities we talk about in and out of bounds,
Speaker 1: like what is inbounds, what is out of bounds, and
Speaker 1: we throw up some examples without judgment, and then our
Speaker 1: facilitators guide them through different ways. So something if a
Speaker 1: little comment or conversation sparks in one of our programs
Speaker 1: and we feel like it's crossing a boundary, it might
Speaker 1: be sexss, misogynous, homophobic, we sort of deep dive into
Speaker 1: that and we facilitate around the room to get some
Speaker 1: group think and group agreement on would that be okay
Speaker 1: if this particular comment was made about your mum, who
Speaker 1: you just shared a hardship about, Like, let's get really
Speaker 1: honest about this. Is that really appropriate? So we're kind
Speaker 1: of policing a little bit. Yeah, But the interesting thing
Speaker 1: with boys is they do police each other. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: they're policing each other around what's acceptable, And you've got
Speaker 1: to be really conscious that sometimes they police each other
Speaker 1: about what could be soft, you know, and it could
Speaker 1: be tender. Yeah, but they're calling that week. So we
Speaker 1: need to make sure we're reframing that into actually vulnerability
Speaker 1: as a strength.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and how do boys receive that in the sense
Speaker 2: of because in a way, you're kind of challenging their
Speaker 2: potential points of views on the way that they see
Speaker 2: the world, the way they see women, how they you know,
Speaker 2: what success is like. How receptive are they to those
Speaker 2: kind of challenging sticky points?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I mean on the boy in their environment.
Speaker 1: Let's be honest, we don't know really a great deal
Speaker 1: about what the boys bringing into the space when we
Speaker 1: first meet them. So we know that a lot of
Speaker 1: boys are also victim survivors, a lot of boys of
Speaker 1: experiencing a lot of challenges, and we talk about that
Speaker 1: a lot. But most boys are open, they're curious, they're
Speaker 1: looking around, but they are checking with their mates, yeah,
Speaker 1: or they're looking down.
Speaker 3: Am I still good? Yes?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. So when we do the heartfelt shares
Speaker 1: and we do some check ins around the room, it
Speaker 1: only takes one boy to open up about what's actually
Speaker 1: going on in his life. Yeah, and then you see
Speaker 1: the others jump in and want to support. What we
Speaker 1: are trying to do is make sure that that's longitudinal.
Speaker 1: So It's not just a one day workshop or program.
Speaker 1: We're we're having three, four, five, six exposures throughout the year,
Speaker 1: throughout their whole teenage journey to let it land and stick.
Speaker 1: But the big work we have to do in the
Speaker 1: work of men and boys is listen to the experiences
Speaker 1: of women and girls and your kids as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so we're like linking in and connecting with organizations like
Speaker 1: the Flourish and like what are you seeing, what are
Speaker 1: you experiencing? How do we share data and insights what's happening,
Speaker 1: Because we could go in and which.
Speaker 3: Is so important, so important?
Speaker 2: We could be just dancing to a different rhythm that
Speaker 2: will very different the songs of guys the.
Speaker 1: Song And there's arguments about the gendered work. But what
Speaker 1: I feel is like with a lot of the times
Speaker 1: we go to the school and you'll have the boys
Speaker 1: group and the girls group and the non binary or
Speaker 1: quick kids will choose where they want to land or
Speaker 1: what they want to do, and then we're thinking, so
Speaker 1: when they all come back together, how do we connect
Speaker 1: this up. That's the next bit of work that we
Speaker 1: really need to focus on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, I guess my question and observation I'm noticing
Speaker 2: is that there is a growing sense of frustration amongst
Speaker 2: teenage girls and women went towards men, and many are
Speaker 2: feeling disheartened about the misogynistic views or opinions behaviors that
Speaker 2: they might be seen online to personal relationships they have.
Speaker 2: So what do men need a change in order to
Speaker 2: create more equitable, respectful, supportive relationships with women?
Speaker 1: I think that we need to be Do you think
Speaker 1: that I can ask you a question?
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I want to. I'm going to answer it.
Speaker 3: I'm going to answer it.
Speaker 1: Do you think that there's like an innate sense within
Speaker 1: us as humans that we kind of know what's right
Speaker 1: and wrong.
Speaker 3: Depends who the human is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a challenging one. But I reckon, I reckon
Speaker 1: we kind of know. I reckon that when it comes
Speaker 1: to relationships, boundaries, particularly the way that we treat other people.
Speaker 1: I reckon, you know, I reckon. It's in here, it's
Speaker 1: in here, intuition. Yeah, there's a There's the reason why
Speaker 1: we asked that question is because I do believe that
Speaker 1: there's an innate sense of like generally what's right and
Speaker 1: what's wrong. There's extremities, there's political views, but when it
Speaker 1: comes down to fundamental humanity. I reckon, we know, like
Speaker 1: we don't kill each other, we shouldn't treat each other poorly.
Speaker 1: Start by seeing women as equal. Yeah, like that would
Speaker 1: be a really good start. Be courageous and call the
Speaker 1: shit out, Like, call it out. It doesn't have to
Speaker 1: always be confrontational. Find the language to call your mates
Speaker 1: out and then call them in. So you can call
Speaker 1: someone out for saying something, doing something, or you're seeing
Speaker 1: something concerned and you call them in and be like what,
Speaker 1: like why would you say that, mate? Or that didn't
Speaker 1: land for me, mate, that's not right mate. You know,
Speaker 1: there's a simple way of calling it out and then
Speaker 1: calling them back in and be like like why did
Speaker 1: you say that? Mate? Just have to be in front
Speaker 1: of everyone. So I think a bit of courage in
Speaker 1: being able to sort of advocate and not thinking you're like,
Speaker 1: you don't have to be an active ast gender equity
Speaker 1: warrior out there. It's micro changes in your sphere of influence.
Speaker 1: Be conscious of your environment, you know, be conscious of
Speaker 1: what's going on around you, and think deeply about your relationships.
Speaker 1: So I think courage to call it out, courage to
Speaker 1: call it in, educate yourself, like, there are resources out there,
Speaker 1: there are so many different people. There's this podcast you
Speaker 1: could be listening to. We're on it right now. Listen
Speaker 1: to this.
Speaker 3: You're in the right place, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1: I just think there's an opportunity for men to really
Speaker 1: lean in and not see this as being detracted from
Speaker 1: But this is working for all of us. This is
Speaker 1: lifting everyone up, and it shouldn't come down to just
Speaker 1: women's safety. You know, it's not that you know, women
Speaker 1: shouldn't be cat called or women shouldn't be harassed. It's
Speaker 1: like baseline stuff. It's like the bear bear bear minimum.
Speaker 1: I'm talking about, how do you divvy up the workload?
Speaker 1: Do you have active and progressive conversations about how you
Speaker 1: manage the income in your household? You know, like, do
Speaker 1: you actually talk about the responsibilities in your house and
Speaker 1: how you kind of weight the value of different things.
Speaker 1: It's okay for someone to earn more and someone to
Speaker 1: care more, or someone to clean more and someone to
Speaker 1: cook more. Those things are okay. As long as you're
Speaker 1: having conscious conversations about it and it's an agreement and
Speaker 1: it's revisited, those things are okay. Then the next level
Speaker 1: is okay. So Once we've made those agreements, it's okay
Speaker 1: for the woman to earn more. It's okay for the
Speaker 1: man to care more. Totally, for the woman to cook
Speaker 1: more and the man to clean more. So these kind
Speaker 1: of these rigid masculine stereotypes that we've been conditioned to
Speaker 1: believe they're okay, are our responsibility to change. Yeah, just
Speaker 1: because we've had the environmental conditioning or the conditioning of
Speaker 1: the world to believe we should be a certain way.
Speaker 1: It is our responsibility to make the change as individuals.
Speaker 1: And it is the decision makers, the policy wonks and
Speaker 1: the politicians and the big system thinkers to make systemic change. Yeah, definitely,
Speaker 1: I have to have both together.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think it's really great.
Speaker 2: I think I really loved just like the practicalness of
Speaker 2: calling people in because I think what can happen often
Speaker 2: is like Banta culture is a big thing I think
Speaker 2: amongst boys, teenager culture. And I think it's so easy
Speaker 2: for a slight little comment to actually have a lot
Speaker 2: of there's a lot underneath that joke, right, And it's
Speaker 2: like that feeling of oh am, I going to be
Speaker 2: a buzzkill if I call this in or let that
Speaker 2: person know that wasn't okay because I find in a
Speaker 2: way there's kind of like a spectrum of misogyny. Like
Speaker 2: you obviously got the extremists with you know, in the manisphere,
Speaker 2: but there's also I find, and what I've experienced and
Speaker 2: witnessed is like the subtleties of misogyny, like in that
Speaker 2: little comment or the energy, or there's like those little
Speaker 2: things that I think need to be picked up as well,
Speaker 2: because those little things can end up. Like you talked
Speaker 2: about micro moments, those micro moments can add up and
Speaker 2: then it actually can be quite harmful without even realizing.
Speaker 1: Yes, but it's easier to let them go totally right,
Speaker 1: Like that's where the courage comes in. Is like this
Speaker 1: small moment, it's actually easy. I'm going to ignore that
Speaker 1: and forget about it and not say anything and put
Speaker 1: my head down and move on. Yeah, or worse, have
Speaker 1: a giggle and laugh.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Whereas I think it takes courage, and it doesn't just
Speaker 1: for a lot of us. It doesn't arrive. You build
Speaker 1: up over time, you know. I think now, at the
Speaker 1: ripe old age of forty, I feel courageous enough that
Speaker 1: if I see something I disagree with and I know
Speaker 1: that fundamentally is not right. I'm going to call it out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to do my best to call it
Speaker 1: back in So doesn't have to be the big confrontation
Speaker 1: or be scared of the aggression. But I'm prepared to
Speaker 1: call it out. Was I always no?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I've been in some really sort of heteronormative,
Speaker 1: hyper masculine environments that I was like, I'm this is
Speaker 1: not a safe thing for me to do. But now
Speaker 1: at forty, I'm like, I'm going to take the risk. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I feel like I've got the language and I've got
Speaker 1: the ability to, you know, assess the risk of the situation.
Speaker 1: But if I see it, I'm calling it out because
Speaker 1: you are you are the behavior you walk by. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you are the values that you weakness.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so super important.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And in terms of like that situation, because I
Speaker 2: think that's really relatable, because I'm sure some people might
Speaker 2: be tuning in and being like, oh, look, that's so
Speaker 2: great that you've been able to get through that risky nature.
Speaker 2: But for those that might be on the edge, they're like, oh,
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 3: I might feel unsafe in this.
Speaker 2: Like what do you advise you just let it go
Speaker 2: because there's a bit of that bystander effect that can happen.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: This is challenging because there's a risk that you give
Speaker 1: people advice that they're not that they're not able to
Speaker 1: deliver on, and then that creates shame and embarrassment for them.
Speaker 1: So I think that as an active bystander, using positive
Speaker 1: language in a confrontation can be difficult to think about.
Speaker 1: But challenge yourself to think about it and what I
Speaker 1: mean by They'll give you really practical example. So a
Speaker 1: mate says something to another mate and it's all the mates.
Speaker 1: Everyone's on the piss, you know. It's one of those environments.
Speaker 1: I'm like, mate, like that, Nah, that didn't really, that
Speaker 1: didn't land me. We'll talk about it later. I acknowledge
Speaker 1: a moment, so everybody knows I'm not accepting that that's
Speaker 1: not okay. But I wouldn't take the risk and then
Speaker 1: start a big group confrontation if I didn't like people
Speaker 1: had been drinking, you know, I just I'll deal with
Speaker 1: that later. I feel comfortable to either have the conversation
Speaker 1: with that guy later or pick it up the next
Speaker 1: day and be like, hey, mate, let's just want to
Speaker 1: chat about yesterday. Yeah, so that's an example of like
Speaker 1: where you feel like it might be a high risk environment.
Speaker 1: I don't want people to be putting themselves at risk,
Speaker 1: but I also do want them to be courageous that
Speaker 1: women are at risk every day. Yeah, so if I
Speaker 1: see something actually happening in real time, I'm stepping in
Speaker 1: and you always have triple zero. Yeah, Like, if it's
Speaker 1: an elevated crisis moment, you have the responsibility to make
Speaker 1: the call.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you have to.
Speaker 1: You got to do the best that you can for
Speaker 1: the people around you. If it's an elevated, heightened high
Speaker 1: risk situation, you must immediately call triple zero. If it's
Speaker 1: the slight misogyny, you've got to assess the risk to
Speaker 1: yourself and the others around you. But I'm calling it out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, always. Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2: After the break, Ben tells us what conversations he's having
Speaker 2: with teenage boys and young men around masculinity. So there
Speaker 2: was something that you mentioned before around use this language
Speaker 2: around evolving and expanding masculinity, and how you've talked a
Speaker 2: bit about hope as well. Now, you guys have worked
Speaker 2: with over hundred thousand teenage boys, which is incredible what
Speaker 2: conversations are they having with you in these safe spaces
Speaker 2: that you're creating.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's be honest. Teenage boys aren't coming in
Speaker 1: talking about masculinity.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: They're like, we're here to learn masculinity general quality.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's not what they're coming in for.
Speaker 1: We are bringing the conversation to them and usually are
Speaker 1: sort of like, how do we get them enrolled into,
Speaker 1: like why the man cave is there? Is usually through
Speaker 1: a bit of play, in a bit of fun and
Speaker 1: some activity, but we get right into it, like what
Speaker 1: does it actually mean to be a young man? And
Speaker 1: ask them questions, usually like a bit of a whiteboard exercise,
Speaker 1: So we're asking them for themes, feelings, actions, behaviors, examples
Speaker 1: so we can tease it out, and then we talk
Speaker 1: about what sort of being a man masculinity in manhood
Speaker 1: will mean, what it might have meant for their dads
Speaker 1: and former generations, and what they hope it means for
Speaker 1: future generations. And what we will talk about is traditional
Speaker 1: masculinity is actually a really beautiful thing. You know, the
Speaker 1: leadership and courage and strength and provider and protector and
Speaker 1: all of these beautiful things. When those things are used
Speaker 1: in isolation is when they become harmful. So what we
Speaker 1: want is a more expansive version moving forward where men
Speaker 1: can be all of those things plus so expanding, plus kind, compassionate, caring.
Speaker 1: We can set and respect boundaries. We understand consent, we
Speaker 1: understand healthy relationships. All we're working towards it. And then
Speaker 1: our facilitators will always share stories of their journey to
Speaker 1: show that it was not always perfect. But they're evolving
Speaker 1: and growing and learning and absorbing knowledge to be a
Speaker 1: better man, or be a great man, or be a
Speaker 1: good man, whatever's capable for them. So there's what you've
Speaker 1: been told or seen about being masculine. Is some of
Speaker 1: it's really good and you can build on it, and
Speaker 1: there's other versions of it. But also there's an individual
Speaker 1: element to what it means to be a man. Yeah,
Speaker 1: some men express themselves in very different ways to other men.
Speaker 1: It's great for men to express themselves through their love
Speaker 1: of sport. It's also absolutely amazing to express yourself through
Speaker 1: your love of music, through your love of arts, or
Speaker 1: crafts or formula one or all of these hobbies and
Speaker 1: interests are expressions. They are not your masculine identity. Yeah,
Speaker 1: A man does not have to be what we think
Speaker 1: it is that's advertised to us. You know, fit six
Speaker 1: foot looking, amazing, drinking beers, living on the quarter acre
Speaker 1: block with the big house and the big ute and
Speaker 1: the wife and the two kids. Like this shit that's
Speaker 1: been sold to you as like a norm that doesn't
Speaker 1: have to be yours.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: The thing that I focus on a lot in our
Speaker 1: work is like, if you actually unpack masculinity, it's just
Speaker 1: being a good human.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting because as you were talking about like
Speaker 2: what you step the boys through and like, oh, just
Speaker 2: sounds like you're getting them to connect with what's their
Speaker 2: most authentic expression of themselves. I actually wanted to talk about,
Speaker 2: you know, there was something you were talking about, like
Speaker 2: just at a systemic level, the things that are changing
Speaker 2: and you know, the government funding more things in this
Speaker 2: kind of space, which is really important. And I know
Speaker 2: there was a recent announcement by the Victorian government announcing
Speaker 2: the first Minister for Boys and Men, which is very exciting.
Speaker 2: I know you guys spoke about that on your socials.
Speaker 2: How do you feel about that? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I felt great because it was it was the first
Speaker 1: signal that a state government in Australia is taking the
Speaker 1: health and well being of boys and men really seriously.
Speaker 1: So the federal government has a special Endvoy for men's health.
Speaker 1: Great damn Repercola doing great job, Like he's talking about
Speaker 1: checking your balls and going to the doctor and take
Speaker 1: care of your mates and good for mental great stuff.
Speaker 1: But at a state level, the jurisdiction said we need
Speaker 1: a plan for men and boys. Now the bit that
Speaker 1: got lost in all of the announce spent and I
Speaker 1: was saying to our socials and content team, you have
Speaker 1: to make sure that we're talking about the fact that,
Speaker 1: for the first time ever, there's also a Minister for
Speaker 1: women and girls. So there was always a Minister for women,
Speaker 1: but it never included girls. And I was like, so
Speaker 1: we not only was it a great announcent, we've got
Speaker 1: paul Edbrooke so he's now Minister for Men and Boys,
Speaker 1: and then we've got Gabrielle who's Minister for Women and Girls.
Speaker 1: And I was like, we're actually taking adolescents seriously. This
Speaker 1: is great. Now we've got a minister, I'm going to
Speaker 1: make sure that they actually designed policy. My first call
Speaker 1: I was like, congratulators, let's get to it.
Speaker 3: Let's Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 2: I know Clavicula he has been hot off the press
Speaker 2: as well. And I think it's really interesting because there
Speaker 2: was that sixty minute interview where essentially the interviewer asked
Speaker 2: his associations to Andrew Tate and he just walked off.
Speaker 2: And I'm curious to know from the work that you
Speaker 2: do with teenage boys, since you know, you guys know
Speaker 2: how to crack open the hearts of teenage boys, that
Speaker 2: kind of behavior reaction like what's actually going on beneath
Speaker 2: the surface, A.
Speaker 1: Very fragile, immature young man who got found out because
Speaker 1: you know, yet live streaming content creation, influencing online has
Speaker 1: some accountability and responsibility through the comments, but no one's
Speaker 1: actually face to face challenging you, and you chuck a
Speaker 1: seasoned investigative journalist. I think he was in front of
Speaker 1: him a couple of hard questions and it just breaks down.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a lot of defensiveness as well.
Speaker 3: You could feel that.
Speaker 1: Immediate defensive because I'm not sure he believes what he's saying,
Speaker 1: you know, and if he does, it's cooked, it's cooked,
Speaker 1: no matter what. Actually, but I'm not quite sure that
Speaker 1: he believes in everything that he's saying because I don't
Speaker 1: see a lot of conviction in some areas. I do
Speaker 1: clovic club clovicular because it comes from the clavical.
Speaker 3: Right looking.
Speaker 1: In whatever. Look, it's shit posting unhealed, traumatized teenage boys
Speaker 1: in men's bodies. Like, I'm just going to call it
Speaker 1: as it is. People can come for me, that's the truth.
Speaker 1: What's been super disturbing is since then he's on live stream,
Speaker 1: has overdosed on drugs, and during him looking very unwell
Speaker 1: and quite clearly inebriated, the person sitting next to him,
Speaker 1: who was another looksmaxing influencer who I think, where's a week?
Speaker 1: That dude can't remember his name, but he was offering
Speaker 1: him an upper because he was And I was like,
Speaker 1: that's not how you help you, mate. You shut down
Speaker 1: the live stream and you call emergency services and help
Speaker 1: you mate. That being aired and exposed was super confronting.
Speaker 1: So many young men and young women watch that, but
Speaker 1: they were exposed. They have been exposed. That man, that
Speaker 1: young man needs serious psychiatric intervention.
Speaker 3: Yeah right now.
Speaker 1: Look, I'm not a clinical psychologist, a psychiatrist. I'm just
Speaker 1: an old school youth worker from back in the day.
Speaker 1: But I've been around a lot. Yeah, but that kid
Speaker 1: did psychiatric help. He needs it. That is not a
Speaker 1: fully formed human. Yeah, that is someone I believe who
Speaker 1: is experiencing a lot of pain and going on to
Speaker 1: perpetuate a lot of pain. Yeah, and he needs to
Speaker 1: be held to account. But he also needs a lot
Speaker 1: of help and needs a lot of support. He does
Speaker 1: not have the right people around him right now.
Speaker 3: Yep, there's a lot. There's a lot there. We wish
Speaker 3: him well.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And also just like like pull the plug
Speaker 1: on the account. Someone get him off, Someone get him off.
Speaker 1: We just need to know. Someone said to me recently,
Speaker 1: this was great. Actually I have to say, someone said
Speaker 1: to me, if AI gets really bad, right, if it
Speaker 1: gets really bad, let me just turn them off.
Speaker 2: Well, speaking of solutions, because I know, like in terms
Speaker 2: of like I would have had a lot of people
Speaker 2: tune it into this episode and they're probably thinking about,
Speaker 2: you know, boys and men in their life. You know,
Speaker 2: it might be sons, friends, partners, and I guess the
Speaker 2: question I would have is, like, what non judgmental conversations
Speaker 2: can we be having with the boys and men in
Speaker 2: our lives to be better men?
Speaker 1: I think staying curious. So what I've found to work
Speaker 1: is arriving without a judgmental approach to a conversation and
Speaker 1: playing the long game. So not everything is going to
Speaker 1: be fixed immediately, depending on the emotions and feelings that
Speaker 1: you have. Right now, we're playing the long game. We're
Speaker 1: staying curious, We're asking questions. We're trying to figure out
Speaker 1: why there might be a certain attitude or behavior or
Speaker 1: norm that's settled in. I'm not talking about the harmful
Speaker 1: stuff that needs to be caught out immediately and there
Speaker 1: needs to be accountability and consequences in action. I'm talking
Speaker 1: about like in your sphere of influence, if you're seeing
Speaker 1: things pop. There are so many resources out there that
Speaker 1: you can set yourself up with the right language. The
Speaker 1: one thing that I've always found, particularly as a parent,
Speaker 1: is my kids really struggle when I'm looking at them.
Speaker 3: Like this, Oh yeah, so it's very confirmed how.
Speaker 1: Many kids vape in your friendships. My kid's like not
Speaker 1: going to be answering. But if we're like driving and
Speaker 1: they're on their owls and I'm on the other side
Speaker 1: of the car, and I'm like, okay, so we're going
Speaker 1: forty to sixty. Yep, fantastic. Now you know this area,
Speaker 1: take it really well. Yeah, yeah, and we're not having
Speaker 1: to look at each other. Now's the time a really
Speaker 1: good opportunity to be dropping some conversations here. Oh I
Speaker 1: saw that. What happened with that clavicular? It's like, what
Speaker 1: was going on there?
Speaker 2: Not?
Speaker 1: What do you think of it? Do you follow him?
Speaker 1: Isn't this terrible? It's like, what's going on with that?
Speaker 1: Have you seen that?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Like being interested and curious maybe not always when your
Speaker 1: kids on their owls, I did it, that haven't crashed
Speaker 1: you touch work, so like in cooking environments.
Speaker 3: Like we are getting busy with their head exactly having.
Speaker 1: The honest conversations. So I think that's a really good
Speaker 1: way of doing it. But I think also if you
Speaker 1: think that someone needs some additional help or seeking help,
Speaker 1: role modeling, like a lot of men, the evidence is clear,
Speaker 1: don't go to the doctor, don't go to the therapist,
Speaker 1: don't go and get support, don't go and get help.
Speaker 1: It is on them. Individual accountability is super important, but
Speaker 1: being able to demonstrate and role model, like I talk
Speaker 1: a lot about being active in therapy, and I'm constantly
Speaker 1: talking about it with my kids, not the depth of
Speaker 1: what I talk about in my psychodynamic therapy, but that
Speaker 1: it's an investment in my self care and I want
Speaker 1: a role model to them that if they feel like
Speaker 1: they need additional assistance, that's something that we can access.
Speaker 1: I talk about it in my work. I'm talking about
Speaker 1: it now in this podcast. Not as some marter that
Speaker 1: I go to therapy. No, like I need proactive support.
Speaker 1: I have like a big life and a lot going on,
Speaker 1: and I need additional help. And that's why this guy
Speaker 1: went to university for like a hundred years and practiced
Speaker 1: all this time to help me. He wants to help me,
Speaker 1: He's there to help me.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So role modeling is another really important one. But
Speaker 1: the thing that I think we're losing a bit is storytelling. Yeah,
Speaker 1: sharing stories about a time that you struggled, or a
Speaker 1: time that things have happened, letting your kids or the
Speaker 1: people around you, your husband, the son, the nephew, whoever,
Speaker 1: letting them know that you're a human too. I remember
Speaker 1: when I was really sad. I remember when something really
Speaker 1: shitty happened to me. I remember when I got really
Speaker 1: angry and I was really embarrassed about it. Afterwards, so
Speaker 1: role modeling, storytelling and opening up that kind of vulnerability
Speaker 1: is a strength and standing in that power of strength
Speaker 1: and being like it's just because I'm vulnerable doesn't make
Speaker 1: me weak. Actually being vulnerable makes me stronger, and then
Speaker 1: giving examples of how and why.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that in some really practical ways that
Speaker 2: we can start these conversations.
Speaker 3: And I'm curious too, because.
Speaker 2: I can imagine like if you're doing some of these
Speaker 2: strategies like being curious, really being judgmental at all, but
Speaker 2: you're still getting maybe defensiveness or just they're not giving
Speaker 2: you anything, Like what would you best advise in a
Speaker 2: situation like that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it depending on the level of trust
Speaker 1: you having the relationship. It's being really honest, I'm not
Speaker 1: getting anything from you right now. I've tried curious, I've
Speaker 1: tried non judgmental, I've googled this, I've tried to figure
Speaker 1: out a way to have a conversation. I just need
Speaker 1: to hit you with a I'm really concerned about this behavior.
Speaker 1: I'm really concerned about this particular attitude. I'm really worried
Speaker 1: about what you said, and I'm going to need to
Speaker 1: set a really clear boundary that like this is actually
Speaker 1: not okay, yeah, or you not. I'm feeling like you
Speaker 1: not being the best version of yourself is not impacting me.
Speaker 1: You know, you need to take some responsibility for that
Speaker 1: because I'm doing my best, but I need you to
Speaker 1: do your best. Yeah Yeah, and if not, I'm going
Speaker 1: to have to set a really clear boundary that can't
Speaker 1: be crossed.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I think just honestly, it's like the elevation, so curious,
Speaker 1: non judgmental, a little more stern setting boundaries, and then
Speaker 1: we're talking about consequences and accountability and that's what distance
Speaker 1: comes in. And his friend who is sitting right next
Speaker 1: to him as he's experiencing this, offered him illicit prescription
Speaker 1: medication to help him in his situation. That's not going
Speaker 1: to help anyone.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think something that I really appreciated in this
Speaker 2: conversation is when we talk about gender like, it is
Speaker 2: really messy. You know, it's messy, it's confusing, and I
Speaker 2: think it's hard to have like a three step process
Speaker 2: towards gender equality because that is really challenging in the
Speaker 2: times we're living in. But what I love is that
Speaker 2: we're able to lean into these conversations and try to
Speaker 2: figure it out together.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, I appreciate that, and also like we're all learning.
Speaker 1: You don't have to be experts, and you've created the
Speaker 1: space to be like, you know, what is it that
Speaker 1: you're actually trying to do, but also like happy to
Speaker 1: challenge me on that. Yeah, because that learning journey never stops.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: Okay, I really loved that conversation. Ben dropped a lot
Speaker 2: of gold. That is going to be sticking with me
Speaker 2: for a while. If there's a topic you would like
Speaker 2: us to discuss, or I guess you think would be
Speaker 2: a great fit for this podcast, please get in touch
Speaker 2: with us at podcast at mamamea dot com dot au
Speaker 2: or sliding to our dms on Instagram at but Are
Speaker 2: You Happy?
Speaker 3: Podcast?
Speaker 2: Also, if you haven't already, would love a review on
Speaker 2: Apple or Spotify. It really helps the show to grow.
Speaker 2: And of course, if there's anything in today's episode that
Speaker 2: has brought up difficult feelings for you, organizations like Lifeline
Speaker 2: and Beyond Blue are always there for free and confidential support.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. Tune it again next Saturday for another
Speaker 2: episode of But Are You Happy?
Speaker 3: Mamma.
Speaker 2: Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters
Speaker 2: on which this podcast was recorded.