WEBVTT - The Manosphere is a Scamosphere (And This Is How You Fight It) 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:05.000 I feel embarrassed and the shame as a man that 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:08.240 we are responsible for this. There's no getting around that. 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:11.480 Welcome to but are you happy I'm a shiny Dante. 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:14.680 With the rise of the manisphere, more women are feeling 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:18.279 concerned while many teenage boys and young men are struggling. 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:21.800 There's a growing gap where real connection and community used 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:25.960 to be, and into that space steps online figures offering belonging, 0:00:26.320 --> 0:00:30.639 but often promoting ideas about masculinity, money, and relationships that 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:34.400 can be misleading and harmful. Ben Vassilo is the CEO 0:00:34.560 --> 0:00:38.239 of the man Ca, a preventive mental health charity supporting 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:42.199 teenage boys and young men. In this conversation, he speaks 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:44.839 candidly about what it means to be a man today, 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:48.320 the impact male behavior is having on women and girls, 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:53.080 and what's really been sending these online spaces. We also 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:56.720 explore how young men can find healthier and more meaningful 0:00:56.840 --> 0:01:00.880 forms of connection and how ideas of masculinity are evolving. 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:05.160 This conversation matters because discussions around gender can often be 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:08.080 had in silo, and this is about finding a way 0:01:08.120 --> 0:01:12.120 forward together. Just a note in this episode, we refer 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:15.400 to women and men and female and male while fully 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:20.160 respecting all gender identities. Today's conversation focuses on this topic 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:23.360 through the lens of the work we do. Here's our conversation, 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:32.720 Ben Ashani, Welcome to But are you happy? I am 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:36.480 very excited for this conversation. I feel like there is 0:01:36.720 --> 0:01:39.640 a lot to be unpacked in today's episode. But I 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:43.440 feel like before we get into everything and unpack the 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:46.280 landscape and masculinity the rise of the matter sphere, I 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:49.120 actually want to start off by getting to know you 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:52.200 and our listeners to get to know you. So the 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:57.080 question I have is what was your perspective on masculinity 0:01:57.120 --> 0:01:57.680 growing up? 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:03.240 Wow? What a way to start, just drop straight into masculinity. 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:10.080 In all honesty, I think my early experiences of masculinity 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:15.280 manhood were role models of what not to do. Like, 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:17.560 if I really think about it now, I can sit 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:20.040 back and reflect and know like my dad was probably 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:23.240 the closest man in my life. He was around consistently 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:26.280 until I was about eleven or twelve, and he did 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:29.480 his best. You know, I've got hindsight now, but he 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:32.400 was quick to temper, he was pretty quick to anger, 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:35.720 really struggled to manage his emotions, and that would come 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:39.600 out in different ways and sort of some unhealthy behaviors, 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:43.480 but also there were some good things, particularly the kind 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:48.000 of more traditional forms of masculinity around Provider Protector. He 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:51.080 was really courageous and really strong and really present in 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:55.800 those ways, really good with sports. But yeah, in the 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:58.639 more sort of modern concepts of masculinity, the things that 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:01.600 we're trying to expand on, not so great, I think 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:07.160 later on in life. I've been married twice, hopefully not 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:10.320 a third time. But in my first marriage, my father 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:14.200 in law was definitely like the masculine archetype that I've 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:20.000 aspired to be, really clever, witty. He was an old 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:23.040 school artist. He used to draw the houses in the 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:25.880 real estate section in the newspapers. Yeah, before that, they 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:29.320 used to be They used to be a clever, witty 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:32.320 into politics, current affairs, but also like rides his Harley 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:34.760 has his cars. Could sit down and have a nice 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:37.240 class of red and have like a really interesting conversation. 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:39.400 But the thing that I learned from him was that 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:42.840 he just loved his wife, my ex mother in law, 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:45.400 who I'm still close with. Both of them, they're just 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:48.600 like a loving bond and like their beautiful relationship with 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:50.560 something that I could learn from, So a bit of 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:52.480 like what not to do, and then a little bit 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:54.480 of like what to do, and then trying to form. 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:55.520 My own Yeah. Wow. 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:57.600 So it's really amazing just to hear from all of 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:01.680 those moments how you could see the and breath of masculinity. 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:04.560 Absolutely, and I think that's how we learn, right. 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:07.000 Yeah, absolutely, And I think just lucky there was like 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:11.080 no digital age with movies, TVs, magazines. Yes, but I'm 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:13.760 so glad I did not have social media that young. 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:16.320 Yeah. Yeah, it's a different time we're living in. And 0:04:16.400 --> 0:04:18.400 do you feel like, I know, you kind of spoke 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:20.640 a bit around the role models in your life, the 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:23.279 things that you loved and probably you didn't want to 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:25.800 take on board, But was there a specific moment in 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:29.719 your life where you felt like you realized that young 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:32.000 men were really struggling emotionally. 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:37.000 Yes. I think I had my own struggles in my 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:39.240 early years. So if I reflect back on my own 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:43.680 kind of teenagehood journey into young manhood, there was a 0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:47.360 lot of stuff going on. So my mom passed when 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:49.800 I was sixteen and sort of went through my own 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:53.080 challenges of feeling depressed and anxious and kind of where 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:54.800 where do I fit in the world. So I have 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:58.599 my own personal experience. But about ten years later, after 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:01.040 I started as a youth worker and then was working 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:04.720 in kind of social impact and having run social services, 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:07.720 I was like, hold on a second, Like, we've got 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:10.600 a pretty big issue in our hands, men's mental health, 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:15.719 men's identity is a really big challenge that's showing up 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:19.640 in the deficit based outcome. So I've worked in family violence, 0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:22.000 I've worked in homelessness, I've worked in addiction, and I'm like, 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:24.080 hold on, we have a challenge on our hands that 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:27.400 we're really not addressing. So I think in my sort 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:29.120 of mid to late twenties is when I started to 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:31.800 investigate and get a bit curious about it, start to 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:33.720 really lean on my mates and start to ask them 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:36.560 about their experiences. But over the last couple of years, 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:38.200 I think with my work at the man Cave, it's 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:40.840 become really obvious that we have some big challenges ahead 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:41.120 of us. 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:43.919 Yeah, yeah, and actually yeah, it leads me to my 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:47.400 next question, because I think the state of masculinity, there's 0:05:47.440 --> 0:05:49.880 all a lot going on, and the rise of the 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:52.240 manisfee is obviously a very hot topic in media at 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:55.240 the moment. So for those that are tuning in right 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:57.799 now and have heard bits and pieces about the manisfee 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:01.000 but don't actually know what it is, can you unpack 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:02.080 what is the manisphere? 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:05.320 I feel like there's people way more qualified than me, 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:11.280 but the manisphere is the perfect shit storm. It's you know, 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:14.560 I had to explain actually to my auntie the other day. 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:17.280 I really wanted her to watch the Louis Throw documentary 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:19.160 and I was like, watch it, and she's like, what 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:21.440 is it? Is it like one of those apps like Facebook, 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:23.600 And I was like, okay, sit down on the cat. 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:27.680 This is going to take more than it is a 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:33.440 It is a network of just really harmful, unhealthy content 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:40.000 disguised in entertainment or healthy advice, for particularly teenage boys 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:43.240 and young men. But the manus for itself is constantly evolving. 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:46.400 So what was like a focus on Andrew take kind 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:50.880 of telling people to like be dominant, be aggressive, take control, 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:54.840 women want to be controlled and dominated has kind of 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:57.960 really taken off kind of like a bush fire. And 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:00.360 now there's so many layers and complex it is and 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:04.600 nuances and different trends and algorithms, and what it actually 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:10.240 is is a bunch of unhealed immature men in teenage 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:15.600 sorry teenage boys in men's bodies, spouting content that is 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:19.360 clear and concise messaging that they know will cut through 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:25.320 the algorithm. Get jacked, get ripped, get a girl, take control. Honestly, 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:29.120 it's insanity. The challenge that we have with the manisphere 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:32.960 is it's a business model. So we're starting to expose 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:36.400 the fact that these influencers, content creators and man influencers 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:39.320 I like to call them, are actually selling subscriptions to 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:43.440 their online entrepreneurial college or they're selling peptides or testosterone 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:48.480 or whatever you know, pt and online gym sessions, and 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:53.480 they're using the naivety but also perhaps the vulnerabilities of 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:58.120 teenagers and young men to come and arrive at really 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:01.200 clear and concise messaging, which there are too because it's simple, 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:04.920 but it's super harmful, super unhealthy. It's on every single platform, 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:08.200 it's on every single app, there's content creators from around 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:12.440 the world, and yeah, it's pretty scary stuff actually. 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:15.440 Yeah, and I mean kind of speaking to the harmful effects, 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:17.840 like what do you feel are the most dangerous ideas 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:20.320 that young men are absorbing from the Manisphere. 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:24.160 Yeah, I think there's two things a kind of live 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:26.640 for me in that. The first is the young men 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:28.920 consuming the content. I'm going to cop a little bit 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:32.400 for just being so direct about how terrible the manisphere is. 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:35.480 There's lots of people trying to justify it and say 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:37.880 that it's good advice. No, no, no, no no. The first 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:40.160 bit is it's harming young men who are consuming in 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:42.280 the content. A lot of the young men that I've 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:46.040 worked with, and that the man Cave supports asking questions 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:50.200 or trying to discover things online like how do I 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:53.040 make money and get rich? How do I get a 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:55.240 great job and not have to work nine to five? 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:57.600 Or how do I ask a girl out? How do 0:08:57.679 --> 0:08:59.360 I go to girl to kiss me? They're kind of 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:02.560 like trual, naive kind of questions seeking advice, or they're 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:06.520 liking and engaging with content which then very quickly escalates 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:09.480 into harmful content. And that's the gateway that we need 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:11.560 to keep an eye on, because young men are then 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:14.120 consuming all of this stuff where a guy's rocking around 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:18.480 in a Lamborghini live in Miami and I'm like, yeah, dude, 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:21.839 I believe in one way monogamy. That's not one way 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:23.960 monogamy is not a thing, like unless you sign up 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:27.840 for its consensual. Fantastic, But all of this stuff, these 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:30.719 boys are like this is real and it's not. It's 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:34.000 all a facade. As mansions are rented, you know, they're 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:36.400 paying for that rent with a subscription that you buy 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:39.040 from their entrepreneurial college. So there's the young men that 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:43.600 are being harmed because it's not attainable. Yeah, and they're 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:47.440 being harmed in a mental health sense, thinking that this 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:49.480 is a way to feel better, get better. But actually 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:51.360 it's not healthy content. It's not good advice. 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:52.640 It's like a false narrative. 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:55.160 Correct. Yeah, yeah, you've got much better language than I do. 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:58.360 What I wanted to say, Boss, It's really much like 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:01.960 a false narrative. Some of it's good though, like some 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:03.960 advice out there. This is the thing about the manisphere 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:07.120 is there's small pieces that get attributed to the manisphere 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:09.840 that's not like good advice around like building a career 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:12.800 or getting a trade or starting a business, or asking respectfully, 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:15.200 how do I ask a girl out? What is consent? Mean? 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:17.560 These are all good things, but young men mental health 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:24.640 not great. But also they are impacting the second cohor 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:27.400 that I really want to focus on, which is particularly 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:31.800 young women and girls, also queer people and people from 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:36.040 sort of minority populations, particularly here in Australia, the multicultural community. 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:38.640 But the impact on women and girls is super concerning 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:44.080 because oi young man observes, takes behavior, Where does the 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:48.160 impact land totally women and girls. That's super concerning, super 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:51.200 concerning for everyone. The challenge that we have is that 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:55.400 there's this conflation between men's accountability and consequences and the 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:58.760 impact on women. Both can be true at the same time. 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:01.840 But I'm really concerned about the women and girls because 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:07.920 what I'm noticing is, particularly online, this increased subscription or 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:10.680 adherence to what the boys and men are saying, this 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:14.480 treadwife concept or the man should go out and work 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:17.480 and provide for the woman and the woman should stay home. Again, 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:20.720 if that's your consensual decision as a partnership, great, but 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:23.280 it's actually not because what we're seeing is sexual assault. 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:25.560 What we're seeing is sexual violence, what we're seeing is aggression. 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:28.360 What we're seeing is dominance, and it's not healthy for anyone. 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:30.920 I think since the manosphere has been getting a lot 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:34.440 more attention, it's really easy to focus on the young boys, 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:37.280 but also we forget to also focus on the young 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:40.640 women who are actually kind of in the shadows of 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:43.800 these conversations. So it's really great that we're having these 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:46.160 conversations now to really bring to life if we really 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:48.960 want gender equality, where we've got to equally look at 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:51.800 what's happening in these spaces. 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:54.640 Well, if I can say just one thing that's super 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:58.560 important is that the manisphere is saying all of the 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:02.280 challenges of men and boys. So there are and it's true, 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:07.040 and there's valid boys performance in school is behind girls. 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:11.120 There's challenges around boys graduation from university or tayte for whatever. 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:14.320 There are challenges out there. But what the manisphere is 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:18.480 feeding the boys is it's the fault of feminism. So 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:20.880 women rising is to the detriment of men, and that's 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:23.840 not true. Women rising list everyone up, just like if 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:26.240 we help boys, that list everyone up. So we really 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:28.600 have to make sure we make the distinction that this 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:31.640 is not the fault of feminism. Feminism is coming from 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:35.679 a long way back. Remember when women literally couldn't vote 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:38.960 but couldn't get alone, which so terribly for so long. 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:41.920 And they're rising, and then there's this manus feming like 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:45.480 labor on the women. Yeah, come on, we've got to 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:46.000 like cut. 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:47.280 Through that's not true totally. 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:49.520 A lot of critical thinking that needs to be had 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:51.559 and a lot of conversations to be had, because I 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:54.360 think a lot of these gendered conversations can be had 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:56.120 in siloed and that's where I think a lot of 0:12:56.120 --> 0:12:59.120 them misunderstanding happens. Whereas you know, I've listened to a 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:02.720 podcast recently where someone was talking about how someone stepped 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:04.520 out of the manisphere and the way that he stepped 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:06.120 out of it was because he actually just had a 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:08.760 chat with a woman, And it was so interesting because 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:11.440 that just goes to show the illusions, the stories, the 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:14.320 wounds we keep ourselves trapped in. I'm not able to 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:17.160 step more into the expansion of possibility. 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:18.400 Yeah yeah. 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:21.280 And also the thing that stands out for me having 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:24.079 had a number of conversations with people that have kind 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:28.719 of escaped the manisphere, rehabilitated from the manisphere based on 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:32.040 the hard labor of women again, women identifying that might 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:34.600 not be healthy, women identifying that that's probably not a 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:37.400 good thing to think, feel, behave, or act, or the 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:39.800 right person to be consuming content from. So we also 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:42.400 have to be conscious that, like, once again we're calling 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:44.720 on women to do the hard work totally for men 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:48.079 to actually be thinking critically about the content that they see. Yeah, 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:49.880 the interesting thing that I want to mark about the 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:52.880 manisphere is that there is so much conjecture in the 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:56.800 community about the manisphere because an older cohort of men 0:13:56.920 --> 0:14:00.000 are actually subscribing and adhering to what the manusfet. 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:02.000 You're a saying, what do you mean by conjecture? 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:04.679 Well, there's this kind of like men are pushing back 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:06.040 that the manusphe isn't all bad. 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:07.600 Interesting. 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:11.280 Yeah, lots of conversations I'm involved in where men are 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:14.640 saying the manisphe is not a bad thing. It's not 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:16.240 all bad, not all men. 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:18.840 What's interesting that you're saying that, Oh my god, there's 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:20.600 like so much there's. 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:21.040 So many things. 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:24.400 We could be here for a few hours. 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:26.320 More of my conversation with Ben after the short break, 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:28.680 I want to read something out and I'm keen to 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:32.640 get your thoughts on it. So, around fifty eight women 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:36.280 were killed by violence across Australia in twenty twenty five, 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:40.320 mainly perpetrated by men. How do you feel when you 0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:41.760 hear statistics like that? 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:49.760 Yeah, it's it's hard to have words, but we must. 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:53.120 The number of women and children that are dying at 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:57.440 the hands of men is an absolute crisis and it 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:03.320 should be treated as such. It makes me feel disgusted. 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:09.640 It makes me feel shameful, embarrassed, sad, angry, all of 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:17.760 the emotions. I'm from Melbourne, so I've seen the mural 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:21.840 on hose Elane. I think Schrell Moody from the Femicide 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:26.400 Watch was collating pictures of women that have been killed 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:29.280 at the hands of men, and unfortunately it had been 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:33.440 taken down recently, but I've seen it, and I work 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:36.840 in a space that is promoting gender equity and healthy 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:39.840 masculinities and how that connects to the empowerment of women 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:43.520 and girls. It makes me feel terribly sad. I feel 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:46.880 like we're not moving fast enough. I feel like we're 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:49.240 not working at all ends of the spectrum. So if 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:54.120 we think about actually really ending gender violence and doing 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:56.320 it as quickly as we possibly can, we need prevention, 0:15:56.880 --> 0:16:00.280 we need early intervention, we need crisis and response, healing 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:03.360 and recovery. None of those four quadrants of the spectrum 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:07.120 are well funded enough, and there's not enough or sufficient 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:11.440 policy from all levels of government to intervene. So there 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:13.560 can be a feeling of despair, but also there's hope 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:18.560 out there, like the women's organizations, the feminist led organizations, 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:22.280 particularly in the intervention, crisis response, healing and recovery, are 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:25.400 doing phenomenal work. On the smell of an oily rag, 0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:27.920 I must say, the federal government has put such a 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:31.040 significant investment, the biggest investment in ending general violence and 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:33.760 family violence. So there is hope coming. It's just not 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:37.080 moving as fast as I would. I have so many 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:41.680 mixed emotions. I think about this constantly. Yeah, it's a 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:44.760 sad state of affairs. And if it was a physical condition, 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:48.280 if it was a cancer, if it was a medical diagnosis, 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.200 we'd be moving so much quicker, so much quicker than 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:53.920 what we are. But I also don't want to devalue 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:56.520 the work of the amazing people out there, the practitioners, 0:16:57.000 --> 0:17:01.440 the researchers, the leaders, the CEOs, the activists, the advocates. 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:05.240 They're doing a phenomenal amount of work. This is our 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:05.960 window and. 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:08.320 It's really beautiful to hear you vulnerability in that as well, 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:10.960 And there's some like strong emotions there too. But also 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:14.520 I'm really intrigued. When you say shame and embarrassment, you 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:16.000 ever unpacked that a little bit more? 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:22.960 Yeah, I feel I feel embarrassed and the shame as 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:26.439 a man that we are responsible for this. There's no 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:30.800 getting around that. And the bit that is embarrassing is 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:33.840 someone at some point in time is going to listen 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:36.919 or hear about this podcast and shit post a comment 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:41.280 that says, what about women's violence against men? Not all men? 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:44.119 You know, there's still that school of thinking. I know 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:47.320 we can't reach all the edges of society, but I 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:50.399 talk to a lot of men. I spend a lot 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:54.840 of time not in ivory towers, in community chatting to people. 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:58.200 And I just feel a bit shameful and embarrassed. And 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:00.840 that's just my own guilt, I suppose. But also I 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:03.280 have a sixteen year old daughter, you know, and I 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:08.440 know that over her lifetime it is very very likely 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:11.560 that she will experience some level of violence, and that 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:14.960 that really scares me. That really scares me. 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:18.160 Yeah, that's a hard one to sit with. I feel 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:18.879 a bit emotional. 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:26.560 Yeah, same, Ah, I just need to take some water, Yeah, yeah. 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:28.480 Do it. 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:32.679 It's so difficult. I don't think we sit in like 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:37.200 the vulnerable spaces enough. And I'm not the expert on this, 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:39.639 but and I don't want to be scomo. It's like 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:42.000 my wife and my daughter said, but it's like when 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:44.080 I visualize that, I visualized my daughter. 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:45.320 Yeah, that's it's hard. 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:48.119 And I visualize my wife and my sisters and my niece, 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:51.360 and I'm like, it's like that's a reality. Yeah, they 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:52.320 live a different life. 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:53.080 Yeah. 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:57.240 I feel a tiny, tiny, tiny piece of the fear 0:18:57.280 --> 0:19:00.639 bit being queer when I was coming out, being a 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:02.720 bit scared of what people would feel in judge and 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:05.600 maybe feeling not so safe walking around Chapel Straight at nighttime. 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:07.760 There's a tiny piece of me that's felt it, but 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:11.880 not this much. Yeah, you know, luck, I actively will 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:14.439 not let my daughter go out on her own at 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:16.840 nighttime at sixteen. It's just not happening. 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:19.199 Yeah, there's so many other layers you've got to think 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:21.680 about as a woman. Yeah, And I think it's somewhat 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:25.679 refreshing and healing to hear how much you get that 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:28.920 as well. I think so often, like I think when 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:31.600 you were talking about you mentioned not all men and 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:33.800 how like that's a phrase that does come up and 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:36.800 it gets me thinking like, are men just using those 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:40.760 words to avoid responsibility for a broader cultural issue that's 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:41.239 going on. 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:44.200 Well, there's a shift in power, right, There's a real 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:49.320 shift empower happening across the world. And I am surrounded 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:53.320 by so many wonderful men, brilliant, beautiful, just clever men 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:57.240 who get it and who understand that the rise of 0:19:57.920 --> 0:19:59.960 women is a really good thing for all of us. 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:01.960 The rise engineer equity is a really good thing for 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:04.960 all of us. But it also requires change. The way 0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:09.320 that our fathers parented us and their fathers parented them 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:12.399 needs to evolve. But evolution is a good thing. We 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:15.720 shouldn't be resisting it totally. Even the fact that my 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:18.679 sixteen year old daughter is pushing back with independence and 0:20:18.760 --> 0:20:20.840 wants to go out and puts all of the safety 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:25.159 mechanisms in place, that doesn't stop me feeling super protective 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:26.960 of her, but that I need to sit with that 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:29.520 and unpack that and be like, you know, why is 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:31.240 it that I'm feeling like that. I need to give 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:32.919 her some trust, I need to let her be her 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:36.320 own person. So there's lots of different mixed emotions, but 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:40.640 men need to sit in discomfort. We need to sit 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:44.359 in shitty feelings and understand it without reacting, without getting angry, 0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:46.399 and just being like, what does this mean for me? 0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:48.360 What does it mean for the people around me? Why 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:52.600 am I feeling this? There is a structural, systemic move, 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:57.320 but it is going to be hard fought and take 0:20:57.560 --> 0:20:58.040 some time. 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:01.240 Yeah, and do you feel like well, I don't know 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:04.959 if you noticed. There was an online trend around the 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:08.480 bear or man yes as well, and just for context 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:11.600 for listeners, women were asked like, if you wanted to, 0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:13.200 if you had to be alone in the forest, would 0:21:13.200 --> 0:21:14.240 you choose a man or a bear? 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:16.639 And a lot of them chose a bear. 0:21:17.600 --> 0:21:19.440 Yeah, I'm keen to hear, Like, what are your thoughts 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:22.200 on that, because obviously this is like reinforcing the gender 0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:24.280