WEBVTT - Karen Read Found Not Guilty In Viral Murder Trial 0:00:06.552 --> 0:00:10.072 True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and 0:00:10.152 --> 0:00:14.192 waters that this podcast was recorded on. Hey, True crime listeners. 0:00:14.312 --> 0:00:16.152 As you may have seen, there has been a major 0:00:16.232 --> 0:00:18.671 update in the Karen Read case, and we're going to 0:00:18.672 --> 0:00:20.592 bring you up to speed on that so you can 0:00:20.672 --> 0:00:22.792 better understand what this case is about. We are re 0:00:22.792 --> 0:00:25.951 releasing our episode featuring Jessica Lowther from the Law and 0:00:25.992 --> 0:00:29.072 Crime Network and producer of the hit podcast series Karen. 0:00:29.712 --> 0:00:33.751 After a second trial and five days of jury deliberations, 0:00:33.992 --> 0:00:37.232 Karen Reid has been found not guilty of second degree 0:00:37.272 --> 0:00:39.471 murder and leaving the scene of an accident in the 0:00:39.512 --> 0:00:42.791 twenty twenty two death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer 0:00:42.912 --> 0:00:47.031 John O'Keefe. She was convicted only of one driving offense, 0:00:47.031 --> 0:00:49.551 and that's driving under the influence, and sentenced to one 0:00:49.592 --> 0:00:52.672 year of probation. This verdict marks the end of a 0:00:52.751 --> 0:00:56.392 high profile case that captured global attention and went viral 0:00:56.472 --> 0:01:00.112 on TikTok, drawing in true crime fanatics and sparking fierce 0:01:00.112 --> 0:01:05.071 debate online. Outside the courtroom in Massachusetts, Reid thanked her supporters, 0:01:05.112 --> 0:01:09.112 but despite the legal conclusion, questions still linger about what 0:01:09.272 --> 0:01:12.472 really happened that night. In July twenty twenty four, her 0:01:12.551 --> 0:01:15.351 first trial ended in a mistrial due to a hung jury. 0:01:15.752 --> 0:01:19.712 Throughout both trials, Reid maintained her innocence, alleging she was 0:01:19.752 --> 0:01:22.872 the victim of a cover up involving local police and officials, 0:01:23.232 --> 0:01:26.672 a claim that fueled the case's viral spread and polarized 0:01:26.672 --> 0:01:29.631 a Massachusetts town. Take a listen to the episode let 0:01:29.672 --> 0:01:32.712 us know what you think. 0:01:36.232 --> 0:01:40.271 It's a blustery winter's night in Canton, Massachusetts, in January 0:01:40.271 --> 0:01:43.352 twenty twenty two, and Karen Reid and John O'Keeffe are 0:01:43.352 --> 0:01:47.392 out with friends. They're drinking, bar hopping and enjoying a 0:01:47.472 --> 0:01:50.432 night on the town. John is a local cop and 0:01:50.472 --> 0:01:51.992 the plan is to move the party to one of 0:01:52.072 --> 0:01:56.392 his colleagues homes nearby. After midnight, Karen drops John at 0:01:56.432 --> 0:01:59.552 the address and heads back to his house. She starts 0:01:59.592 --> 0:02:02.512 panicking when he still isn't home in the early hours 0:02:02.512 --> 0:02:07.232 of the morning. Well that's her side of story, anyway. 0:02:08.432 --> 0:02:11.352 John's body is found outside the location of the house 0:02:11.392 --> 0:02:15.032 party at six am the next morning. Pieces from a 0:02:15.072 --> 0:02:19.432 broken tail light are found nearby. As Karen wails at 0:02:19.472 --> 0:02:22.112 the sight of her dead boyfriend, she says something that 0:02:22.192 --> 0:02:25.432 remains a point of contention either I hit him, I 0:02:25.552 --> 0:02:29.912 hit him? Or did I hit him? Did I hit him? 0:02:30.192 --> 0:02:33.832 The slight change of inference means everything. It could mean 0:02:33.832 --> 0:02:37.232 the difference between freedom and a jail cell for Karen. 0:02:38.592 --> 0:02:42.192 But this story gets even murkier because as her defense 0:02:42.232 --> 0:02:45.752 picks up the case, they start to unravel another potential 0:02:45.832 --> 0:02:50.192 series of events, one that involves a cover up, contamination 0:02:50.312 --> 0:02:54.312 by law enforcement, and the framing of Karen for murder. 0:03:05.672 --> 0:03:09.312 I'm Jemma and this is True Crime Conversations a Muma 0:03:09.392 --> 0:03:13.512 mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking 0:03:13.592 --> 0:03:16.672 to the people who know the most about them. Before 0:03:16.712 --> 0:03:19.832 her arrest, Karen Reid was a financial analyst and professor. 0:03:20.472 --> 0:03:23.272 She'd been dating John O'Keefe, a Boston police officer, for 0:03:23.352 --> 0:03:27.272 two years. Photos of the pair show an attractive, smiling 0:03:27.312 --> 0:03:30.712 couple in their mid forties, but despite the pretty pictures, 0:03:30.752 --> 0:03:35.312 their relationship wasn't all rosy. They'd been having some disagreements 0:03:35.312 --> 0:03:38.112 in the lead up to that January twenty twenty two evening. 0:03:39.072 --> 0:03:42.312 Ever since John's death, the town where he died has 0:03:42.352 --> 0:03:46.712 been divided, but it since snowbled into an international debate 0:03:47.152 --> 0:03:50.192 fueled by the Free Karen movement that's grown legs online. 0:03:50.912 --> 0:03:54.832 There's two very distinct camps. Was John killed by those 0:03:54.952 --> 0:03:58.272 inside the house, a house full of police and law 0:03:58.352 --> 0:04:02.272 enforcement who then proceeded to cover up his murder, or 0:04:02.312 --> 0:04:05.752 did his girlfriend Karen kill him before he even made 0:04:05.752 --> 0:04:09.672 it through the To help us unpack those theories and 0:04:09.792 --> 0:04:13.072 everything that came before it, we're joined by Jessica lalfa, 0:04:13.392 --> 0:04:16.992 producer of Karen, an in depth podcast series by the 0:04:17.072 --> 0:04:29.472 Law and Crime Network. Jessica joins us now. Jess tell 0:04:29.512 --> 0:04:32.351 us about Karen and Jones love story. 0:04:33.272 --> 0:04:36.512 So, Karen and John actually first met when they were 0:04:36.512 --> 0:04:40.992 in their twenties, shortly after college. They dated for a 0:04:41.032 --> 0:04:44.032 little while, but their careers took them on different paths. 0:04:44.552 --> 0:04:49.991 Karen became an adjunct professor at Bentley University in Massachusetts, 0:04:50.552 --> 0:04:54.272 and John O'Keeffe became a cop. He was a Boston 0:04:54.312 --> 0:04:58.352 Police officer, and in twenty twenty or you know, during 0:04:58.392 --> 0:05:02.312 the COVID era, they came across each other again on 0:05:02.352 --> 0:05:05.592 Facebook and he messaged her and was like, you know, 0:05:05.712 --> 0:05:10.072 longtime no see and she was looking at his profile 0:05:10.152 --> 0:05:12.872 and was like, oh, I noticed you have these kids 0:05:12.912 --> 0:05:15.072 with you now, like, what's going on with that? And 0:05:15.272 --> 0:05:18.672 it turns out that he has taken custody of his 0:05:18.792 --> 0:05:23.032 niece and his nephew after the really really sad story 0:05:23.112 --> 0:05:26.352 that not only did his brother in law die, but 0:05:26.512 --> 0:05:30.192 also his sister died, and so that left the kids 0:05:30.232 --> 0:05:33.232 without any parents, and so John swooped in and took 0:05:33.272 --> 0:05:36.592 them under his wing. And so he ended up taking 0:05:36.632 --> 0:05:39.992 a desk job at the Boston Police Department to have 0:05:40.072 --> 0:05:43.752 a safer job so he could take care of these kids. 0:05:43.912 --> 0:05:47.152 And from what I'd seen on their TikTok, they just 0:05:47.232 --> 0:05:49.032 had like a ton of fun together. You can tell 0:05:49.072 --> 0:05:52.952 he was the fun uncle and really loved them, and 0:05:53.112 --> 0:05:55.192 it really just seemed like a really fun house to 0:05:55.232 --> 0:05:59.632 live in. But Karen and John they rekindled and they 0:05:59.872 --> 0:06:02.792 dated for two years up until the night that this 0:06:03.592 --> 0:06:05.032 tragic incident happened. 0:06:05.792 --> 0:06:09.392 That's a little of different dynamics to navigate as someone 0:06:09.472 --> 0:06:13.952 coming into a new relationship. You've got this once single guy, 0:06:14.352 --> 0:06:17.232 no kids, who suddenly has two children to look after, 0:06:17.272 --> 0:06:20.712 he's also grieving. How did they navigate all of that? 0:06:21.032 --> 0:06:24.272 Her basically adopting two step kids in this relationship. 0:06:25.072 --> 0:06:28.671 Yeah, From all accounts we've heard, Karen really really cared 0:06:28.792 --> 0:06:33.232 about the children, and she was often spending the night 0:06:33.352 --> 0:06:36.112 at John's house and helping to raise them, to take 0:06:36.112 --> 0:06:38.112 care of them. She was very invested in their futures. 0:06:38.112 --> 0:06:41.072 But Karen and John were only dating, and so there 0:06:41.112 --> 0:06:43.592 were times where she felt like she was being taken 0:06:43.712 --> 0:06:47.672 advantage of when he would go out drinking and she 0:06:47.712 --> 0:06:49.432 couldn't get a hold of him and she would be 0:06:49.512 --> 0:06:51.112 at the house with the kids. You know, She's like, 0:06:51.152 --> 0:06:52.752 I have to go back to my house. I have 0:06:52.792 --> 0:06:55.512 a job to do, and you're nowhere to be found. 0:06:55.752 --> 0:06:59.032 And so there was a lot of back and forth, 0:06:59.152 --> 0:07:01.632 it seems, between the two of them over the kids, 0:07:01.672 --> 0:07:04.872 and especially from some testimony we heard during the trial 0:07:05.272 --> 0:07:08.352 about what she was feed eating the kids. It's actually 0:07:08.432 --> 0:07:12.032 kind of ironic that it's all over like Dunkin Donuts, 0:07:12.072 --> 0:07:15.472 which is very Massachusetts, very Boston of this case. 0:07:16.712 --> 0:07:19.632 So take me through that he was upset that she 0:07:19.712 --> 0:07:20.752 was feeding them donuts. 0:07:21.752 --> 0:07:25.032 Yeah, so there was just one morning where instead of 0:07:25.192 --> 0:07:27.592 making them a breakfast, she brought them Dunkin Donuts and 0:07:27.672 --> 0:07:30.832 John was unhappy about the kids eating donuts and wanting 0:07:30.832 --> 0:07:32.952 them to eat something healthier and they had a big 0:07:33.032 --> 0:07:36.112 argument about it. But I'll say this, just judging from 0:07:36.232 --> 0:07:40.552 everything we've learned about Karen and John over the course 0:07:40.952 --> 0:07:42.712 of the past couple of years since in since and 0:07:42.752 --> 0:07:45.992 it happened, it seems like it's pretty easy to get 0:07:45.992 --> 0:07:48.112 them to fly off the handle. You know, she seems 0:07:48.152 --> 0:07:50.792 like she has quite a temper on her and I'm 0:07:50.792 --> 0:07:53.392 not sure about John. I haven't heard that about him. 0:07:53.472 --> 0:07:57.472 But it takes two to start a but yeah. 0:07:57.912 --> 0:08:01.072 Quick to fire, by the sounds. So what was the 0:08:01.112 --> 0:08:04.232 state of their relationship looking like in twenty twenty two? 0:08:04.632 --> 0:08:05.712 Early twenty twenty. 0:08:05.512 --> 0:08:09.872 Two, people in the group were saying that the relationship 0:08:09.872 --> 0:08:13.952 had run its course. The niece actually had overheard John 0:08:14.672 --> 0:08:17.752 say to Karen that this isn't healthy. And this was 0:08:17.792 --> 0:08:21.512 one week before his death, And so there's a lot 0:08:21.552 --> 0:08:26.112 of moving parts around this time. They're dating, she's practically 0:08:26.152 --> 0:08:29.032 living with him, she's taking care of his children, but 0:08:29.312 --> 0:08:30.992 you know, they still love each other, and so it 0:08:31.072 --> 0:08:33.392 seems like it's very hard for them to figure out 0:08:33.432 --> 0:08:36.992 like how to make this work. And then leading up 0:08:36.992 --> 0:08:39.232 to the night of the twenty eighth, you can see 0:08:39.272 --> 0:08:43.112 on surveillance footage, John and Karen and their group of friends. 0:08:43.152 --> 0:08:46.912 They're at this bar called the Waterfall Bard Girl, and 0:08:47.032 --> 0:08:49.592 they look like they're having a great time. Everybody looks 0:08:49.592 --> 0:08:52.672 like they're getting along. Everybody's laughing. She's like holding on 0:08:52.712 --> 0:08:56.552 to him. They're very affectionate, and it's very hard to 0:08:56.592 --> 0:08:58.312 believe everything that happens. After this. 0:08:59.472 --> 0:09:01.672 They go to an after patty, which is what happens 0:09:01.672 --> 0:09:04.752 after the night out drinking. Before we get to what happened, 0:09:04.832 --> 0:09:07.992 can you give us some context about who was at 0:09:07.992 --> 0:09:10.792 that afterpotty because it was a house that was owned 0:09:11.272 --> 0:09:13.872 by a man called Brian Albert, and he's quite significant 0:09:13.912 --> 0:09:14.472 in this story. 0:09:15.112 --> 0:09:18.632 He is so Brian Albert is also a Boston police officer, 0:09:18.792 --> 0:09:22.312 so he knew John O'Keefe. He said he was a 0:09:22.312 --> 0:09:25.152 friend of his, but they were probably just buddies. They're 0:09:25.152 --> 0:09:28.512 also cops. They live near each other. And also John 0:09:28.552 --> 0:09:32.151 O'Keeffe lives next door to Colin Albert, which is the 0:09:32.152 --> 0:09:36.112 nephew of Brian Albert. So thirty four Fairview Road is 0:09:36.152 --> 0:09:39.752 where all of this ends up taking place in Campton, Massachusetts. 0:09:40.352 --> 0:09:43.912 A Norraters coming in, which is a huge snowstorm, the 0:09:44.072 --> 0:09:46.312 likes of which the area had not seen in years, 0:09:46.512 --> 0:09:49.832 and they were projected to get like feet and feet 0:09:49.952 --> 0:09:52.632 of snow, and so they were all just trying to 0:09:52.672 --> 0:09:55.192 get one last hurrah before they were going to be 0:09:55.352 --> 0:10:00.392 holed in by this snow. And at the house, they're 0:10:00.472 --> 0:10:05.552 celebrating Brian Junior's birthday party. So Brian Junior is there 0:10:05.832 --> 0:10:08.912 at the house with a bunch of his friends, while 0:10:08.992 --> 0:10:11.912 the parents in John O'Keeffe and Karen Reider at the bar. 0:10:12.312 --> 0:10:16.272 And so around twelve fifteen, everyone starts trickling from the 0:10:16.312 --> 0:10:19.112 bar to the Albert home and this is the home 0:10:19.192 --> 0:10:23.752 of Brian Albert. And at the home with them at 0:10:23.752 --> 0:10:28.511 this point is Jennifer McCabe. So one other person that's 0:10:28.512 --> 0:10:30.792 at this party is the person that Karen Reid has 0:10:30.792 --> 0:10:34.832 been exchanging flirtatious text with and he was also at 0:10:34.832 --> 0:10:37.952 the bar. His name is Brian Higgins. There are two 0:10:38.032 --> 0:10:43.352 Brian's in this story. So Brian Higgins is not a 0:10:43.392 --> 0:10:46.752 police officer, but he's in law enforcement and he happens 0:10:46.752 --> 0:10:49.112 to have an office in the Canton Police Department, where 0:10:50.192 --> 0:10:54.912 Kevin Albert is a detective. Kevin is Brian's brother, and 0:10:54.952 --> 0:11:00.112 they have another brother named Chris, who is the Canton Selectman. 0:11:01.112 --> 0:11:04.192 So this is clearly a very well connected family in 0:11:04.192 --> 0:11:09.312 this little town. So it's easy to see where this 0:11:09.392 --> 0:11:15.232 conspiracy theory took fire because there are so many tentacles 0:11:15.272 --> 0:11:18.832 to this family and so many people involved. But at 0:11:18.832 --> 0:11:22.312 the core of it, that night, there were about ten 0:11:23.072 --> 0:11:26.632 adults and maybe a few of the kids left from 0:11:26.672 --> 0:11:29.872 the birthday celebration around twelve thirty at night. 0:11:30.872 --> 0:11:34.312 Okay, so what does Karen say happened that evening? 0:11:35.352 --> 0:11:39.192 So Karen Reid has really not said much about this 0:11:39.352 --> 0:11:45.032 case publicly, except she did an interview for Nightline back 0:11:45.072 --> 0:11:48.912 in twenty twenty three before the trial took place, and 0:11:48.992 --> 0:11:52.312 I'm actually surprised her lawyers let her do this. But 0:11:52.672 --> 0:11:56.712 she says that she and John were leaving the bar 0:11:57.632 --> 0:12:00.272 and he says, we're going to go to the Alberts 0:12:00.272 --> 0:12:03.992 for the after party. She says, are we invited? I 0:12:04.032 --> 0:12:07.472 want to make sure we're invited, And so she tells 0:12:07.552 --> 0:12:10.792 him when they get there to go inside to make 0:12:10.832 --> 0:12:15.672 sure that it's okay, that they're welcome there. And this 0:12:15.752 --> 0:12:17.872 is where the details get like a little fuzzy, because 0:12:17.912 --> 0:12:20.272 she says she never saw him go in the house, 0:12:20.632 --> 0:12:23.232 but she saw him approach the door, she says she 0:12:23.312 --> 0:12:27.072 looked down at her phone and then drove off, which 0:12:27.112 --> 0:12:29.272 is kind of weird because I thought she was going 0:12:29.352 --> 0:12:32.152 to stay at the party. But there's also some times 0:12:32.152 --> 0:12:34.392 where she said that she waited for a really long 0:12:34.472 --> 0:12:38.512 time for John to come out and give her the confirmation, 0:12:38.752 --> 0:12:41.072 and he wasn't answering his phone and he wasn't responding 0:12:41.072 --> 0:12:44.232 to any texts. So perhaps she was there for about 0:12:44.232 --> 0:12:48.232 ten minutes and waited for him, and then she took 0:12:48.312 --> 0:12:50.912 off and went back to his house for the night 0:12:51.072 --> 0:12:54.152 because that's where the kids were and somebody needed to 0:12:54.152 --> 0:12:57.512 be with them overnight. And over the course of this 0:12:57.592 --> 0:13:02.992 whole evening, she's blowing up his phone, she's texting him, 0:13:03.032 --> 0:13:07.472 she calls him fifty times, and she's leaving like these 0:13:07.472 --> 0:13:12.312 profanity laden voicemails. They're kind of funny if it wasn't 0:13:12.352 --> 0:13:16.072 in the middle of this extremely serious situation. So that's 0:13:16.192 --> 0:13:19.432 Karen's story, is that she wakes up around five am 0:13:19.472 --> 0:13:22.112 and she realizes John never came into the house. She 0:13:22.192 --> 0:13:24.872 was sleeping on the couch and I believe the niece 0:13:24.952 --> 0:13:28.232 was with her in the living room, So she calls 0:13:28.352 --> 0:13:32.192 Jennifer McCabe, who again is the sister in law of 0:13:32.232 --> 0:13:35.192 Brian Albert, the homeowner, and she says, you know, John 0:13:35.192 --> 0:13:37.312 never came home last night. Where's John? Do you think 0:13:37.352 --> 0:13:40.672 he got hit by a plow? And it's really interesting 0:13:40.992 --> 0:13:45.472 that she's just throwing out all of these weird like 0:13:45.552 --> 0:13:47.512 what if he got hit by a plow? Like we 0:13:47.512 --> 0:13:50.872 need to go look for him. So she and Jennifer 0:13:50.952 --> 0:13:54.272 and this woman Carrie Roberts decide to go on this 0:13:54.792 --> 0:13:59.792 journey together to look for John. And while she's on 0:13:59.832 --> 0:14:04.392 the phone with Jennifer McCabe, Jennifer's husband hears the conversation 0:14:04.952 --> 0:14:07.712 and Karen is saying, I left him at the waterfall. 0:14:07.832 --> 0:14:09.992 I must have left him at the waterfall, and he's like, 0:14:10.072 --> 0:14:13.752 what are you talking about? We saw you outside the house. 0:14:14.112 --> 0:14:16.392 So there are multiple people who say they saw her 0:14:16.512 --> 0:14:20.072 dark suv outside of the house. So we know that 0:14:20.192 --> 0:14:23.872 it's at least true that she pulled up to the 0:14:23.912 --> 0:14:27.952 house and dropped off John. That's true. Nobody's debating that. 0:14:28.872 --> 0:14:32.112 But what happens next is still a mystery because they're 0:14:32.192 --> 0:14:36.352 driving around the two square miles from the bar to 0:14:36.472 --> 0:14:40.032 the two houses, and as soon as they pull up 0:14:40.072 --> 0:14:43.872 in front of the house. The homeowner is Brian Albert, 0:14:44.152 --> 0:14:49.232 Boston police officer. She immediately homes in on this gigantic 0:14:49.392 --> 0:14:52.712 snow mound in between the flagpole and the fire hydrant, 0:14:52.992 --> 0:14:55.192 and she runs and she bee lines to it. She's like, 0:14:55.232 --> 0:14:58.432 it's John, it's John, it's John. Nobody else sees what 0:14:58.592 --> 0:15:02.272 she's seeing. Like again, it's snowing, very, very hard. There's 0:15:02.272 --> 0:15:03.872 at least two feet of snow on the ground, I 0:15:03.912 --> 0:15:07.032 believe at this point, and she runs over to him. 0:15:07.112 --> 0:15:09.752 She's pushing the snow off of him. At one point 0:15:09.832 --> 0:15:13.512 she takes her shirt off, she takes his shirt off, 0:15:13.552 --> 0:15:19.192 and she's trying to warm him up. And I believe 0:15:19.832 --> 0:15:23.872 he's still alive at this point, or you know, maybe 0:15:23.952 --> 0:15:28.752 he's just pronounced dead later. But it's really strange what 0:15:28.792 --> 0:15:31.752 you end up seeing. Of course, I've never seen his 0:15:31.872 --> 0:15:34.832 body on the scene, but he has two black eyes, 0:15:35.632 --> 0:15:38.712 a big straight abrasion on the back of his head, 0:15:39.312 --> 0:15:41.552 and he has a lot of what looked like claw 0:15:41.592 --> 0:15:46.552 marks scratches on one of his arms, and he's bleeding 0:15:46.592 --> 0:15:49.312 from the mouth and the nose and the eyes, and 0:15:49.392 --> 0:15:51.992 so they call nine one one. Multiple people have called 0:15:52.072 --> 0:15:54.792 nine one one at this point, and this is where 0:15:54.872 --> 0:15:58.632 again it gets even more complicated because a lot of 0:15:58.672 --> 0:16:02.992 people end up on this scene, the paramedics, the investigating 0:16:03.072 --> 0:16:07.232 officers from the Canton Police Department, who do not investigate homicides, 0:16:07.312 --> 0:16:10.232 let alone deaths, and so they're a little bit out 0:16:10.232 --> 0:16:13.872 of their element. It's snowing, it's a crazy scene. It's 0:16:13.872 --> 0:16:18.832 six in the morning, and Karen is screaming hysterically. Everyone 0:16:18.912 --> 0:16:21.712 keeps talking about how crazy she's going at this scene, 0:16:21.712 --> 0:16:25.272 while everyone else is very calm and they're just, you know, 0:16:25.392 --> 0:16:27.992 kind of in shock that this is even happening to 0:16:28.272 --> 0:16:34.072 their good friend John O'Keefe. And there are multiple accounts 0:16:34.752 --> 0:16:38.712 that Karen said I hit him, I hit him, I 0:16:38.792 --> 0:16:43.512 hit him, but nobody wrote it down in a single 0:16:43.552 --> 0:16:45.032 report at the time. 0:16:46.152 --> 0:16:49.712 There was also contention over the wording of that wasn't. 0:16:49.512 --> 0:16:54.152 There right, And so she maintains that she did not 0:16:54.232 --> 0:16:57.632 say I hit him. She maintains she asked did I 0:16:57.752 --> 0:17:01.992 hit him? Could I have hit him? Because she's thinking 0:17:02.072 --> 0:17:05.032 back to the night before when she dropped him off. 0:17:05.672 --> 0:17:07.712 And so this is where it gets a little fuzzy, 0:17:07.752 --> 0:17:11.432 because you either have to believe that she doesn't remember 0:17:11.512 --> 0:17:14.711 anything about that night, or she's only remembering details, or 0:17:14.752 --> 0:17:18.751 they're coming to her over time, which could happen. But 0:17:19.952 --> 0:17:23.071 really everything about this case is really complicated by the 0:17:23.111 --> 0:17:28.032 fact that nobody secures the scene. None of the officers 0:17:28.631 --> 0:17:33.832 separate the witnesses. They never go into the home. Brian Albert, 0:17:34.111 --> 0:17:38.032 a police officer and a first responder, never comes out 0:17:38.071 --> 0:17:42.631 of his home to see what's going on outside. And 0:17:43.752 --> 0:17:49.392 they start collecting evidence with red solo cups borrowed from 0:17:49.671 --> 0:17:52.471 a cop neighbor who lives down the street. 0:17:53.111 --> 0:17:55.152 That is a wild detile, isn't it. 0:17:55.712 --> 0:17:57.511 I know it came out in the trial. It was 0:17:57.591 --> 0:17:59.431 just like, how far away is the police department? You 0:17:59.512 --> 0:18:02.711 guys don't have sterile plastic containers? What would take you 0:18:02.712 --> 0:18:06.032 five minutes to get there? So they're clearly out of 0:18:06.032 --> 0:18:09.232 their element. By the time the afternoon rolls around. Obviously 0:18:09.272 --> 0:18:11.032 this case has been taken out of their hands and 0:18:11.071 --> 0:18:15.272 it's given to the Massachusetts State Police. And this complicates 0:18:15.272 --> 0:18:19.792 the case even more because the person assigned to investigate 0:18:19.831 --> 0:18:23.191 this is Trooper Michael Proctor, and he is also a 0:18:23.232 --> 0:18:25.351 friend of the homeowner. Brian Albert. 0:18:29.992 --> 0:18:33.631 You're listening to true crime conversations with me Jim A. 0:18:33.671 --> 0:18:33.951 Bath. 0:18:34.472 --> 0:18:43.392 I'm speaking with Jessica Lautha about the trial of Karen Reid. 0:18:44.752 --> 0:18:49.631 What is John's actual cause of death put down in 0:18:49.992 --> 0:18:51.552 his autopsy report. 0:18:52.232 --> 0:18:56.431 This is what's crazy, is that his cause of death 0:18:56.591 --> 0:19:01.231 is blunt force trauma mixed with hypothermia. So if it 0:19:01.272 --> 0:19:04.991 happened how the prosecution says it happened, is that Karen 0:19:05.032 --> 0:19:09.151 Reid back up into John O'Keefe hit him with her 0:19:09.232 --> 0:19:12.831 car and he laid there for six hours until someone 0:19:12.952 --> 0:19:18.111 found him, and it was freezing cold, wind whipping snow 0:19:18.192 --> 0:19:22.271 piling up. But what's so strange about that is that 0:19:22.311 --> 0:19:24.912 there were a lot of people coming and going from 0:19:24.992 --> 0:19:30.831 this party all night, and even the plow driver who 0:19:30.871 --> 0:19:33.471 came through at two thirty in the morning has his 0:19:33.591 --> 0:19:36.071 light shining and says he never sees anything in that 0:19:36.151 --> 0:19:38.431 front lawn, and he would have noticed it because he 0:19:38.552 --> 0:19:44.231 drives this route all the time. And they never determined 0:19:44.472 --> 0:19:49.232 his manner of death, which is curious that you would 0:19:49.351 --> 0:19:51.791 try to put someone on trial for murder without a 0:19:51.831 --> 0:19:53.512 determined manner of death. 0:19:54.272 --> 0:19:57.952 And there were, as you were saying before, quite bizarre 0:19:57.992 --> 0:20:01.911 injuries on him. If you consider that, the prosecution thinks 0:20:01.952 --> 0:20:04.792 that he was backed into. But he had bruises on 0:20:04.911 --> 0:20:09.032 his eyes, and he had weird mocks on his arms. 0:20:10.111 --> 0:20:12.431 And that's the thing, is that the prosecution has an 0:20:12.431 --> 0:20:15.831 expert that testifies that these injuries are consistent with being 0:20:15.911 --> 0:20:19.112 hit by a car, but the defense has an expert 0:20:19.151 --> 0:20:21.472 that goes on and says they're not. This is consistent 0:20:21.512 --> 0:20:24.152 with either a fight or an attack by an animal. 0:20:24.752 --> 0:20:26.512 And there was an animal there wasn't there. 0:20:27.151 --> 0:20:29.992 There was an animal there, and is if this story 0:20:30.032 --> 0:20:32.632 is not crazy enough. Now a dog named Chloe becomes 0:20:32.671 --> 0:20:36.591 a suspect. There's a German shepherd that's been living with 0:20:36.671 --> 0:20:42.071 the Alberts for seven years, their beloved pet dog. And curiously, 0:20:43.111 --> 0:20:47.591 they rehome this dog within months of John o'keeith's death. 0:20:48.071 --> 0:20:51.912 And not only do they rehome the dog, they rehome themselves. 0:20:52.232 --> 0:20:55.231 They buy a new home, even after they had just 0:20:55.311 --> 0:21:00.071 renovated their entire basement. So a lot of curious things 0:21:00.192 --> 0:21:04.272 going on, a lot of strange coincidences, I suppose. But 0:21:05.232 --> 0:21:09.111 on the final day of the trial, before closing arguments, 0:21:09.911 --> 0:21:12.232 they have an expert go up there and say, these 0:21:12.351 --> 0:21:15.751 marks on John O'Keefe's arms are consistent with that of 0:21:15.871 --> 0:21:18.992 dog claw marks and bites, and if you look at 0:21:19.032 --> 0:21:22.352 the photos or look at other photos of dog attacks, 0:21:22.391 --> 0:21:27.552 they look exactly the same. Nobody ever examined the dog. 0:21:27.631 --> 0:21:31.032 The dog was living in Vermont, and they say that 0:21:31.111 --> 0:21:34.472 they offered up the address of the dog if they 0:21:34.512 --> 0:21:38.752 wanted to go interview her. But yeah, no one ever 0:21:38.831 --> 0:21:43.111 really followed up with this lead. And because really the 0:21:43.192 --> 0:21:45.071 crux of the story is is that they honed in 0:21:45.111 --> 0:21:50.751 on Karen Reid from day one and they wanted someone 0:21:50.792 --> 0:21:54.032 to blame this on, and they blamed it on her. 0:21:54.631 --> 0:21:58.951 Well, she was arrested in early feb initially not charged 0:21:58.992 --> 0:22:03.712 with murder, but quite quickly upgraded to murder two, which Frozzies, 0:22:03.792 --> 0:22:07.311 is kind of like manslaughter. On what evidence was that 0:22:07.431 --> 0:22:10.791 charge made? You've said that the prosecution claims that the 0:22:10.831 --> 0:22:14.831 car backed into John, but what was the evidence that 0:22:14.831 --> 0:22:15.432 that happened. 0:22:16.671 --> 0:22:21.232 The evidence that they claim that proves Karen Reid hit 0:22:21.351 --> 0:22:25.232 John O'Keefe with her SUV is that there were microscopic 0:22:25.552 --> 0:22:31.992 tail light pieces found on him, and there were tail 0:22:32.071 --> 0:22:35.231 light pieces that were found around the scene underneath the snow. 0:22:35.351 --> 0:22:38.552 So after they use the leaf blower to push all 0:22:38.591 --> 0:22:41.471 the snow away, the State Police finally come in with 0:22:41.552 --> 0:22:47.191 shovels and find tail light pieces underneath the snow. And 0:22:47.232 --> 0:22:49.391 so that's one of the contentious points of this case 0:22:49.431 --> 0:22:52.151 is that nobody saw any tail light pieces until the 0:22:52.151 --> 0:22:56.671 state police came in. And when you have an investigator 0:22:56.712 --> 0:22:59.232 assigned to this case who has as much history as 0:22:59.512 --> 0:23:03.511 Trooper Proctor does, this is when the conspiracy starts to 0:23:03.792 --> 0:23:05.992 really really boil to the surface. 0:23:06.992 --> 0:23:10.111 Was there anything that directly challenged that version of events? 0:23:10.111 --> 0:23:13.712 I've said a lot of debate about that tilelight evidence. 0:23:14.752 --> 0:23:18.992 Yeah, the tailight evidence is really kind of crazy because 0:23:19.111 --> 0:23:23.432 even at the trial, the plastic bag that the tailight 0:23:23.472 --> 0:23:27.552 pieces are in multiply over time, like the pieces multiply, 0:23:27.671 --> 0:23:30.231 and so at one point there's only three, then there's five. 0:23:31.071 --> 0:23:34.552 And even over the course of the investigation of this case, 0:23:35.151 --> 0:23:39.871 they found tailight pieces near his body. Then they found 0:23:39.871 --> 0:23:43.952 the microscopic pieces on him. But when you see pictures 0:23:44.032 --> 0:23:47.752 of Karen's SUV, the taillight did not look as broken 0:23:47.911 --> 0:23:50.552 when they brought the car in as it did when 0:23:50.831 --> 0:23:55.512 it left there. And so there's this surveillance footage of 0:23:55.752 --> 0:23:59.871 the quote Sally Port that the Massachusetts State Police brought 0:24:00.071 --> 0:24:03.032 her suv to search it to give it a very 0:24:03.032 --> 0:24:07.392 thorough look through. And one thing that the defense notices 0:24:07.512 --> 0:24:10.032 right away is that this video appears to be inverted, 0:24:10.472 --> 0:24:14.511 and so what looks to be the passenger side is 0:24:14.591 --> 0:24:17.471 actually the driver side, and what looks to be the 0:24:17.552 --> 0:24:20.591 driver side is actually the passenger side, and supposedly it's 0:24:20.631 --> 0:24:23.871 the right rear tail light, so on the passenger side 0:24:23.871 --> 0:24:28.871 that's broken, and on the video you see two people 0:24:28.952 --> 0:24:33.511 walk by and appear to be fiddling with something. But 0:24:33.952 --> 0:24:37.752 because this looks like it might be the driver's side, 0:24:38.151 --> 0:24:41.512 nobody's really thinking anything of it until it's pointed out 0:24:41.552 --> 0:24:44.192