1 00:00:06,552 --> 00:00:10,072 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and 2 00:00:10,152 --> 00:00:14,192 Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on. Hey, True crime listeners. 3 00:00:14,312 --> 00:00:16,152 Speaker 1: As you may have seen, there has been a major 4 00:00:16,232 --> 00:00:18,671 Speaker 1: update in the Karen Read case, and we're going to 5 00:00:18,672 --> 00:00:20,592 Speaker 1: bring you up to speed on that so you can 6 00:00:20,672 --> 00:00:22,792 Speaker 1: better understand what this case is about. We are re 7 00:00:22,792 --> 00:00:25,951 Speaker 1: releasing our episode featuring Jessica Lowther from the Law and 8 00:00:25,992 --> 00:00:29,072 Speaker 1: Crime Network and producer of the hit podcast series Karen. 9 00:00:29,712 --> 00:00:33,751 Speaker 1: After a second trial and five days of jury deliberations, 10 00:00:33,992 --> 00:00:37,232 Speaker 1: Karen Reid has been found not guilty of second degree 11 00:00:37,272 --> 00:00:39,471 Speaker 1: murder and leaving the scene of an accident in the 12 00:00:39,512 --> 00:00:42,791 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer 13 00:00:42,912 --> 00:00:47,031 Speaker 1: John O'Keefe. She was convicted only of one driving offense, 14 00:00:47,031 --> 00:00:49,551 Speaker 1: and that's driving under the influence, and sentenced to one 15 00:00:49,592 --> 00:00:52,672 Speaker 1: year of probation. This verdict marks the end of a 16 00:00:52,751 --> 00:00:56,392 Speaker 1: high profile case that captured global attention and went viral 17 00:00:56,472 --> 00:01:00,112 Speaker 1: on TikTok, drawing in true crime fanatics and sparking fierce 18 00:01:00,112 --> 00:01:05,071 Speaker 1: debate online. Outside the courtroom in Massachusetts, Reid thanked her supporters, 19 00:01:05,112 --> 00:01:09,112 Speaker 1: but despite the legal conclusion, questions still linger about what 20 00:01:09,272 --> 00:01:12,472 Speaker 1: really happened that night. In July twenty twenty four, her 21 00:01:12,551 --> 00:01:15,351 Speaker 1: first trial ended in a mistrial due to a hung jury. 22 00:01:15,752 --> 00:01:19,712 Speaker 1: Throughout both trials, Reid maintained her innocence, alleging she was 23 00:01:19,752 --> 00:01:22,872 Speaker 1: the victim of a cover up involving local police and officials, 24 00:01:23,232 --> 00:01:26,672 Speaker 1: a claim that fueled the case's viral spread and polarized 25 00:01:26,672 --> 00:01:29,631 Speaker 1: a Massachusetts town. Take a listen to the episode let 26 00:01:29,672 --> 00:01:32,712 Speaker 1: us know what you think. 27 00:01:36,232 --> 00:01:40,271 Speaker 2: It's a blustery winter's night in Canton, Massachusetts, in January 28 00:01:40,271 --> 00:01:43,352 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, and Karen Reid and John O'Keeffe are 29 00:01:43,352 --> 00:01:47,392 Speaker 2: out with friends. They're drinking, bar hopping and enjoying a 30 00:01:47,472 --> 00:01:50,432 Speaker 2: night on the town. John is a local cop and 31 00:01:50,472 --> 00:01:51,992 Speaker 2: the plan is to move the party to one of 32 00:01:52,072 --> 00:01:56,392 Speaker 2: his colleagues homes nearby. After midnight, Karen drops John at 33 00:01:56,432 --> 00:01:59,552 Speaker 2: the address and heads back to his house. She starts 34 00:01:59,592 --> 00:02:02,512 Speaker 2: panicking when he still isn't home in the early hours 35 00:02:02,512 --> 00:02:07,232 Speaker 2: of the morning. Well that's her side of story, anyway. 36 00:02:08,432 --> 00:02:11,352 Speaker 2: John's body is found outside the location of the house 37 00:02:11,392 --> 00:02:15,032 Speaker 2: party at six am the next morning. Pieces from a 38 00:02:15,072 --> 00:02:19,432 Speaker 2: broken tail light are found nearby. As Karen wails at 39 00:02:19,472 --> 00:02:22,112 Speaker 2: the sight of her dead boyfriend, she says something that 40 00:02:22,192 --> 00:02:25,432 Speaker 2: remains a point of contention either I hit him, I 41 00:02:25,552 --> 00:02:29,912 Speaker 2: hit him? Or did I hit him? Did I hit him? 42 00:02:30,192 --> 00:02:33,832 Speaker 2: The slight change of inference means everything. It could mean 43 00:02:33,832 --> 00:02:37,232 Speaker 2: the difference between freedom and a jail cell for Karen. 44 00:02:38,592 --> 00:02:42,192 Speaker 2: But this story gets even murkier because as her defense 45 00:02:42,232 --> 00:02:45,752 Speaker 2: picks up the case, they start to unravel another potential 46 00:02:45,832 --> 00:02:50,192 Speaker 2: series of events, one that involves a cover up, contamination 47 00:02:50,312 --> 00:02:54,312 Speaker 2: by law enforcement, and the framing of Karen for murder. 48 00:03:05,672 --> 00:03:09,312 Speaker 2: I'm Jemma and this is True Crime Conversations a Muma 49 00:03:09,392 --> 00:03:13,512 Speaker 2: mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking 50 00:03:13,592 --> 00:03:16,672 Speaker 2: to the people who know the most about them. Before 51 00:03:16,712 --> 00:03:19,832 Speaker 2: her arrest, Karen Reid was a financial analyst and professor. 52 00:03:20,472 --> 00:03:23,272 Speaker 2: She'd been dating John O'Keefe, a Boston police officer, for 53 00:03:23,352 --> 00:03:27,272 Speaker 2: two years. Photos of the pair show an attractive, smiling 54 00:03:27,312 --> 00:03:30,712 Speaker 2: couple in their mid forties, but despite the pretty pictures, 55 00:03:30,752 --> 00:03:35,312 Speaker 2: their relationship wasn't all rosy. They'd been having some disagreements 56 00:03:35,312 --> 00:03:38,112 Speaker 2: in the lead up to that January twenty twenty two evening. 57 00:03:39,072 --> 00:03:42,312 Speaker 2: Ever since John's death, the town where he died has 58 00:03:42,352 --> 00:03:46,712 Speaker 2: been divided, but it since snowbled into an international debate 59 00:03:47,152 --> 00:03:50,192 Speaker 2: fueled by the Free Karen movement that's grown legs online. 60 00:03:50,912 --> 00:03:54,832 Speaker 2: There's two very distinct camps. Was John killed by those 61 00:03:54,952 --> 00:03:58,272 Speaker 2: inside the house, a house full of police and law 62 00:03:58,352 --> 00:04:02,272 Speaker 2: enforcement who then proceeded to cover up his murder, or 63 00:04:02,312 --> 00:04:05,752 Speaker 2: did his girlfriend Karen kill him before he even made 64 00:04:05,752 --> 00:04:09,672 Speaker 2: it through the To help us unpack those theories and 65 00:04:09,792 --> 00:04:13,072 Speaker 2: everything that came before it, we're joined by Jessica lalfa, 66 00:04:13,392 --> 00:04:16,992 Speaker 2: producer of Karen, an in depth podcast series by the 67 00:04:17,072 --> 00:04:29,472 Speaker 2: Law and Crime Network. Jessica joins us now. Jess tell 68 00:04:29,512 --> 00:04:32,351 Speaker 2: us about Karen and Jones love story. 69 00:04:33,272 --> 00:04:36,512 Speaker 3: So, Karen and John actually first met when they were 70 00:04:36,512 --> 00:04:40,992 Speaker 3: in their twenties, shortly after college. They dated for a 71 00:04:41,032 --> 00:04:44,032 Speaker 3: little while, but their careers took them on different paths. 72 00:04:44,552 --> 00:04:49,991 Speaker 3: Karen became an adjunct professor at Bentley University in Massachusetts, 73 00:04:50,552 --> 00:04:54,272 Speaker 3: and John O'Keeffe became a cop. He was a Boston 74 00:04:54,312 --> 00:04:58,352 Speaker 3: Police officer, and in twenty twenty or you know, during 75 00:04:58,392 --> 00:05:02,312 Speaker 3: the COVID era, they came across each other again on 76 00:05:02,352 --> 00:05:05,592 Speaker 3: Facebook and he messaged her and was like, you know, 77 00:05:05,712 --> 00:05:10,072 Speaker 3: longtime no see and she was looking at his profile 78 00:05:10,152 --> 00:05:12,872 Speaker 3: and was like, oh, I noticed you have these kids 79 00:05:12,912 --> 00:05:15,072 Speaker 3: with you now, like, what's going on with that? And 80 00:05:15,272 --> 00:05:18,672 Speaker 3: it turns out that he has taken custody of his 81 00:05:18,792 --> 00:05:23,032 Speaker 3: niece and his nephew after the really really sad story 82 00:05:23,112 --> 00:05:26,352 Speaker 3: that not only did his brother in law die, but 83 00:05:26,512 --> 00:05:30,192 Speaker 3: also his sister died, and so that left the kids 84 00:05:30,232 --> 00:05:33,232 Speaker 3: without any parents, and so John swooped in and took 85 00:05:33,272 --> 00:05:36,592 Speaker 3: them under his wing. And so he ended up taking 86 00:05:36,632 --> 00:05:39,992 Speaker 3: a desk job at the Boston Police Department to have 87 00:05:40,072 --> 00:05:43,752 Speaker 3: a safer job so he could take care of these kids. 88 00:05:43,912 --> 00:05:47,152 Speaker 3: And from what I'd seen on their TikTok, they just 89 00:05:47,232 --> 00:05:49,032 Speaker 3: had like a ton of fun together. You can tell 90 00:05:49,072 --> 00:05:52,952 Speaker 3: he was the fun uncle and really loved them, and 91 00:05:53,112 --> 00:05:55,192 Speaker 3: it really just seemed like a really fun house to 92 00:05:55,232 --> 00:05:59,632 Speaker 3: live in. But Karen and John they rekindled and they 93 00:05:59,872 --> 00:06:02,792 Speaker 3: dated for two years up until the night that this 94 00:06:03,592 --> 00:06:05,032 Speaker 3: tragic incident happened. 95 00:06:05,792 --> 00:06:09,392 Speaker 2: That's a little of different dynamics to navigate as someone 96 00:06:09,472 --> 00:06:13,952 Speaker 2: coming into a new relationship. You've got this once single guy, 97 00:06:14,352 --> 00:06:17,232 Speaker 2: no kids, who suddenly has two children to look after, 98 00:06:17,272 --> 00:06:20,712 Speaker 2: he's also grieving. How did they navigate all of that? 99 00:06:21,032 --> 00:06:24,272 Speaker 2: Her basically adopting two step kids in this relationship. 100 00:06:25,072 --> 00:06:28,671 Speaker 3: Yeah, From all accounts we've heard, Karen really really cared 101 00:06:28,792 --> 00:06:33,232 Speaker 3: about the children, and she was often spending the night 102 00:06:33,352 --> 00:06:36,112 Speaker 3: at John's house and helping to raise them, to take 103 00:06:36,112 --> 00:06:38,112 Speaker 3: care of them. She was very invested in their futures. 104 00:06:38,112 --> 00:06:41,072 Speaker 3: But Karen and John were only dating, and so there 105 00:06:41,112 --> 00:06:43,592 Speaker 3: were times where she felt like she was being taken 106 00:06:43,712 --> 00:06:47,672 Speaker 3: advantage of when he would go out drinking and she 107 00:06:47,712 --> 00:06:49,432 Speaker 3: couldn't get a hold of him and she would be 108 00:06:49,512 --> 00:06:51,112 Speaker 3: at the house with the kids. You know, She's like, 109 00:06:51,152 --> 00:06:52,752 Speaker 3: I have to go back to my house. I have 110 00:06:52,792 --> 00:06:55,512 Speaker 3: a job to do, and you're nowhere to be found. 111 00:06:55,752 --> 00:06:59,032 Speaker 3: And so there was a lot of back and forth, 112 00:06:59,152 --> 00:07:01,632 Speaker 3: it seems, between the two of them over the kids, 113 00:07:01,672 --> 00:07:04,872 Speaker 3: and especially from some testimony we heard during the trial 114 00:07:05,272 --> 00:07:08,352 Speaker 3: about what she was feed eating the kids. It's actually 115 00:07:08,432 --> 00:07:12,032 Speaker 3: kind of ironic that it's all over like Dunkin Donuts, 116 00:07:12,072 --> 00:07:15,472 Speaker 3: which is very Massachusetts, very Boston of this case. 117 00:07:16,712 --> 00:07:19,632 Speaker 2: So take me through that he was upset that she 118 00:07:19,712 --> 00:07:20,752 Speaker 2: was feeding them donuts. 119 00:07:21,752 --> 00:07:25,032 Speaker 3: Yeah, so there was just one morning where instead of 120 00:07:25,192 --> 00:07:27,592 Speaker 3: making them a breakfast, she brought them Dunkin Donuts and 121 00:07:27,672 --> 00:07:30,832 Speaker 3: John was unhappy about the kids eating donuts and wanting 122 00:07:30,832 --> 00:07:32,952 Speaker 3: them to eat something healthier and they had a big 123 00:07:33,032 --> 00:07:36,112 Speaker 3: argument about it. But I'll say this, just judging from 124 00:07:36,232 --> 00:07:40,552 Speaker 3: everything we've learned about Karen and John over the course 125 00:07:40,952 --> 00:07:42,712 Speaker 3: of the past couple of years since in since and 126 00:07:42,752 --> 00:07:45,992 Speaker 3: it happened, it seems like it's pretty easy to get 127 00:07:45,992 --> 00:07:48,112 Speaker 3: them to fly off the handle. You know, she seems 128 00:07:48,152 --> 00:07:50,792 Speaker 3: like she has quite a temper on her and I'm 129 00:07:50,792 --> 00:07:53,392 Speaker 3: not sure about John. I haven't heard that about him. 130 00:07:53,472 --> 00:07:57,472 Speaker 3: But it takes two to start a but yeah. 131 00:07:57,912 --> 00:08:01,072 Speaker 2: Quick to fire, by the sounds. So what was the 132 00:08:01,112 --> 00:08:04,232 Speaker 2: state of their relationship looking like in twenty twenty two? 133 00:08:04,632 --> 00:08:05,712 Speaker 2: Early twenty twenty. 134 00:08:05,512 --> 00:08:09,872 Speaker 3: Two, people in the group were saying that the relationship 135 00:08:09,872 --> 00:08:13,952 Speaker 3: had run its course. The niece actually had overheard John 136 00:08:14,672 --> 00:08:17,752 Speaker 3: say to Karen that this isn't healthy. And this was 137 00:08:17,792 --> 00:08:21,512 Speaker 3: one week before his death, And so there's a lot 138 00:08:21,552 --> 00:08:26,112 Speaker 3: of moving parts around this time. They're dating, she's practically 139 00:08:26,152 --> 00:08:29,032 Speaker 3: living with him, she's taking care of his children, but 140 00:08:29,312 --> 00:08:30,992 Speaker 3: you know, they still love each other, and so it 141 00:08:31,072 --> 00:08:33,392 Speaker 3: seems like it's very hard for them to figure out 142 00:08:33,432 --> 00:08:36,992 Speaker 3: like how to make this work. And then leading up 143 00:08:36,992 --> 00:08:39,232 Speaker 3: to the night of the twenty eighth, you can see 144 00:08:39,272 --> 00:08:43,112 Speaker 3: on surveillance footage, John and Karen and their group of friends. 145 00:08:43,152 --> 00:08:46,912 Speaker 3: They're at this bar called the Waterfall Bard Girl, and 146 00:08:47,032 --> 00:08:49,592 Speaker 3: they look like they're having a great time. Everybody looks 147 00:08:49,592 --> 00:08:52,672 Speaker 3: like they're getting along. Everybody's laughing. She's like holding on 148 00:08:52,712 --> 00:08:56,552 Speaker 3: to him. They're very affectionate, and it's very hard to 149 00:08:56,592 --> 00:08:58,312 Speaker 3: believe everything that happens. After this. 150 00:08:59,472 --> 00:09:01,672 Speaker 2: They go to an after patty, which is what happens 151 00:09:01,672 --> 00:09:04,752 Speaker 2: after the night out drinking. Before we get to what happened, 152 00:09:04,832 --> 00:09:07,992 Speaker 2: can you give us some context about who was at 153 00:09:07,992 --> 00:09:10,792 Speaker 2: that afterpotty because it was a house that was owned 154 00:09:11,272 --> 00:09:13,872 Speaker 2: by a man called Brian Albert, and he's quite significant 155 00:09:13,912 --> 00:09:14,472 Speaker 2: in this story. 156 00:09:15,112 --> 00:09:18,632 Speaker 3: He is so Brian Albert is also a Boston police officer, 157 00:09:18,792 --> 00:09:22,312 Speaker 3: so he knew John O'Keefe. He said he was a 158 00:09:22,312 --> 00:09:25,152 Speaker 3: friend of his, but they were probably just buddies. They're 159 00:09:25,152 --> 00:09:28,512 Speaker 3: also cops. They live near each other. And also John 160 00:09:28,552 --> 00:09:32,151 Speaker 3: O'Keeffe lives next door to Colin Albert, which is the 161 00:09:32,152 --> 00:09:36,112 Speaker 3: nephew of Brian Albert. So thirty four Fairview Road is 162 00:09:36,152 --> 00:09:39,752 Speaker 3: where all of this ends up taking place in Campton, Massachusetts. 163 00:09:40,352 --> 00:09:43,912 Speaker 3: A Norraters coming in, which is a huge snowstorm, the 164 00:09:44,072 --> 00:09:46,312 Speaker 3: likes of which the area had not seen in years, 165 00:09:46,512 --> 00:09:49,832 Speaker 3: and they were projected to get like feet and feet 166 00:09:49,952 --> 00:09:52,632 Speaker 3: of snow, and so they were all just trying to 167 00:09:52,672 --> 00:09:55,192 Speaker 3: get one last hurrah before they were going to be 168 00:09:55,352 --> 00:10:00,392 Speaker 3: holed in by this snow. And at the house, they're 169 00:10:00,472 --> 00:10:05,552 Speaker 3: celebrating Brian Junior's birthday party. So Brian Junior is there 170 00:10:05,832 --> 00:10:08,912 Speaker 3: at the house with a bunch of his friends, while 171 00:10:08,992 --> 00:10:11,912 Speaker 3: the parents in John O'Keeffe and Karen Reider at the bar. 172 00:10:12,312 --> 00:10:16,272 Speaker 3: And so around twelve fifteen, everyone starts trickling from the 173 00:10:16,312 --> 00:10:19,112 Speaker 3: bar to the Albert home and this is the home 174 00:10:19,192 --> 00:10:23,752 Speaker 3: of Brian Albert. And at the home with them at 175 00:10:23,752 --> 00:10:28,511 Speaker 3: this point is Jennifer McCabe. So one other person that's 176 00:10:28,512 --> 00:10:30,792 Speaker 3: at this party is the person that Karen Reid has 177 00:10:30,792 --> 00:10:34,832 Speaker 3: been exchanging flirtatious text with and he was also at 178 00:10:34,832 --> 00:10:37,952 Speaker 3: the bar. His name is Brian Higgins. There are two 179 00:10:38,032 --> 00:10:43,352 Speaker 3: Brian's in this story. So Brian Higgins is not a 180 00:10:43,392 --> 00:10:46,752 Speaker 3: police officer, but he's in law enforcement and he happens 181 00:10:46,752 --> 00:10:49,112 Speaker 3: to have an office in the Canton Police Department, where 182 00:10:50,192 --> 00:10:54,912 Speaker 3: Kevin Albert is a detective. Kevin is Brian's brother, and 183 00:10:54,952 --> 00:11:00,112 Speaker 3: they have another brother named Chris, who is the Canton Selectman. 184 00:11:01,112 --> 00:11:04,192 Speaker 3: So this is clearly a very well connected family in 185 00:11:04,192 --> 00:11:09,312 Speaker 3: this little town. So it's easy to see where this 186 00:11:09,392 --> 00:11:15,232 Speaker 3: conspiracy theory took fire because there are so many tentacles 187 00:11:15,272 --> 00:11:18,832 Speaker 3: to this family and so many people involved. But at 188 00:11:18,832 --> 00:11:22,312 Speaker 3: the core of it, that night, there were about ten 189 00:11:23,072 --> 00:11:26,632 Speaker 3: adults and maybe a few of the kids left from 190 00:11:26,672 --> 00:11:29,872 Speaker 3: the birthday celebration around twelve thirty at night. 191 00:11:30,872 --> 00:11:34,312 Speaker 2: Okay, so what does Karen say happened that evening? 192 00:11:35,352 --> 00:11:39,192 Speaker 3: So Karen Reid has really not said much about this 193 00:11:39,352 --> 00:11:45,032 Speaker 3: case publicly, except she did an interview for Nightline back 194 00:11:45,072 --> 00:11:48,912 Speaker 3: in twenty twenty three before the trial took place, and 195 00:11:48,992 --> 00:11:52,312 Speaker 3: I'm actually surprised her lawyers let her do this. But 196 00:11:52,672 --> 00:11:56,712 Speaker 3: she says that she and John were leaving the bar 197 00:11:57,632 --> 00:12:00,272 Speaker 3: and he says, we're going to go to the Alberts 198 00:12:00,272 --> 00:12:03,992 Speaker 3: for the after party. She says, are we invited? I 199 00:12:04,032 --> 00:12:07,472 Speaker 3: want to make sure we're invited, And so she tells 200 00:12:07,552 --> 00:12:10,792 Speaker 3: him when they get there to go inside to make 201 00:12:10,832 --> 00:12:15,672 Speaker 3: sure that it's okay, that they're welcome there. And this 202 00:12:15,752 --> 00:12:17,872 Speaker 3: is where the details get like a little fuzzy, because 203 00:12:17,912 --> 00:12:20,272 Speaker 3: she says she never saw him go in the house, 204 00:12:20,632 --> 00:12:23,232 Speaker 3: but she saw him approach the door, she says she 205 00:12:23,312 --> 00:12:27,072 Speaker 3: looked down at her phone and then drove off, which 206 00:12:27,112 --> 00:12:29,272 Speaker 3: is kind of weird because I thought she was going 207 00:12:29,352 --> 00:12:32,152 Speaker 3: to stay at the party. But there's also some times 208 00:12:32,152 --> 00:12:34,392 Speaker 3: where she said that she waited for a really long 209 00:12:34,472 --> 00:12:38,512 Speaker 3: time for John to come out and give her the confirmation, 210 00:12:38,752 --> 00:12:41,072 Speaker 3: and he wasn't answering his phone and he wasn't responding 211 00:12:41,072 --> 00:12:44,232 Speaker 3: to any texts. So perhaps she was there for about 212 00:12:44,232 --> 00:12:48,232 Speaker 3: ten minutes and waited for him, and then she took 213 00:12:48,312 --> 00:12:50,912 Speaker 3: off and went back to his house for the night 214 00:12:51,072 --> 00:12:54,152 Speaker 3: because that's where the kids were and somebody needed to 215 00:12:54,152 --> 00:12:57,512 Speaker 3: be with them overnight. And over the course of this 216 00:12:57,592 --> 00:13:02,992 Speaker 3: whole evening, she's blowing up his phone, she's texting him, 217 00:13:03,032 --> 00:13:07,472 Speaker 3: she calls him fifty times, and she's leaving like these 218 00:13:07,472 --> 00:13:12,312 Speaker 3: profanity laden voicemails. They're kind of funny if it wasn't 219 00:13:12,352 --> 00:13:16,072 Speaker 3: in the middle of this extremely serious situation. So that's 220 00:13:16,192 --> 00:13:19,432 Speaker 3: Karen's story, is that she wakes up around five am 221 00:13:19,472 --> 00:13:22,112 Speaker 3: and she realizes John never came into the house. She 222 00:13:22,192 --> 00:13:24,872 Speaker 3: was sleeping on the couch and I believe the niece 223 00:13:24,952 --> 00:13:28,232 Speaker 3: was with her in the living room, So she calls 224 00:13:28,352 --> 00:13:32,192 Speaker 3: Jennifer McCabe, who again is the sister in law of 225 00:13:32,232 --> 00:13:35,192 Speaker 3: Brian Albert, the homeowner, and she says, you know, John 226 00:13:35,192 --> 00:13:37,312 Speaker 3: never came home last night. Where's John? Do you think 227 00:13:37,352 --> 00:13:40,672 Speaker 3: he got hit by a plow? And it's really interesting 228 00:13:40,992 --> 00:13:45,472 Speaker 3: that she's just throwing out all of these weird like 229 00:13:45,552 --> 00:13:47,512 Speaker 3: what if he got hit by a plow? Like we 230 00:13:47,512 --> 00:13:50,872 Speaker 3: need to go look for him. So she and Jennifer 231 00:13:50,952 --> 00:13:54,272 Speaker 3: and this woman Carrie Roberts decide to go on this 232 00:13:54,792 --> 00:13:59,792 Speaker 3: journey together to look for John. And while she's on 233 00:13:59,832 --> 00:14:04,392 Speaker 3: the phone with Jennifer McCabe, Jennifer's husband hears the conversation 234 00:14:04,952 --> 00:14:07,712 Speaker 3: and Karen is saying, I left him at the waterfall. 235 00:14:07,832 --> 00:14:09,992 Speaker 3: I must have left him at the waterfall, and he's like, 236 00:14:10,072 --> 00:14:13,752 Speaker 3: what are you talking about? We saw you outside the house. 237 00:14:14,112 --> 00:14:16,392 Speaker 3: So there are multiple people who say they saw her 238 00:14:16,512 --> 00:14:20,072 Speaker 3: dark suv outside of the house. So we know that 239 00:14:20,192 --> 00:14:23,872 Speaker 3: it's at least true that she pulled up to the 240 00:14:23,912 --> 00:14:27,952 Speaker 3: house and dropped off John. That's true. Nobody's debating that. 241 00:14:28,872 --> 00:14:32,112 Speaker 3: But what happens next is still a mystery because they're 242 00:14:32,192 --> 00:14:36,352 Speaker 3: driving around the two square miles from the bar to 243 00:14:36,472 --> 00:14:40,032 Speaker 3: the two houses, and as soon as they pull up 244 00:14:40,072 --> 00:14:43,872 Speaker 3: in front of the house. The homeowner is Brian Albert, 245 00:14:44,152 --> 00:14:49,232 Speaker 3: Boston police officer. She immediately homes in on this gigantic 246 00:14:49,392 --> 00:14:52,712 Speaker 3: snow mound in between the flagpole and the fire hydrant, 247 00:14:52,992 --> 00:14:55,192 Speaker 3: and she runs and she bee lines to it. She's like, 248 00:14:55,232 --> 00:14:58,432 Speaker 3: it's John, it's John, it's John. Nobody else sees what 249 00:14:58,592 --> 00:15:02,272 Speaker 3: she's seeing. Like again, it's snowing, very, very hard. There's 250 00:15:02,272 --> 00:15:03,872 Speaker 3: at least two feet of snow on the ground, I 251 00:15:03,912 --> 00:15:07,032 Speaker 3: believe at this point, and she runs over to him. 252 00:15:07,112 --> 00:15:09,752 Speaker 3: She's pushing the snow off of him. At one point 253 00:15:09,832 --> 00:15:13,512 Speaker 3: she takes her shirt off, she takes his shirt off, 254 00:15:13,552 --> 00:15:19,192 Speaker 3: and she's trying to warm him up. And I believe 255 00:15:19,832 --> 00:15:23,872 Speaker 3: he's still alive at this point, or you know, maybe 256 00:15:23,952 --> 00:15:28,752 Speaker 3: he's just pronounced dead later. But it's really strange what 257 00:15:28,792 --> 00:15:31,752 Speaker 3: you end up seeing. Of course, I've never seen his 258 00:15:31,872 --> 00:15:34,832 Speaker 3: body on the scene, but he has two black eyes, 259 00:15:35,632 --> 00:15:38,712 Speaker 3: a big straight abrasion on the back of his head, 260 00:15:39,312 --> 00:15:41,552 Speaker 3: and he has a lot of what looked like claw 261 00:15:41,592 --> 00:15:46,552 Speaker 3: marks scratches on one of his arms, and he's bleeding 262 00:15:46,592 --> 00:15:49,312 Speaker 3: from the mouth and the nose and the eyes, and 263 00:15:49,392 --> 00:15:51,992 Speaker 3: so they call nine one one. Multiple people have called 264 00:15:52,072 --> 00:15:54,792 Speaker 3: nine one one at this point, and this is where 265 00:15:54,872 --> 00:15:58,632 Speaker 3: again it gets even more complicated because a lot of 266 00:15:58,672 --> 00:16:02,992 Speaker 3: people end up on this scene, the paramedics, the investigating 267 00:16:03,072 --> 00:16:07,232 Speaker 3: officers from the Canton Police Department, who do not investigate homicides, 268 00:16:07,312 --> 00:16:10,232 Speaker 3: let alone deaths, and so they're a little bit out 269 00:16:10,232 --> 00:16:13,872 Speaker 3: of their element. It's snowing, it's a crazy scene. It's 270 00:16:13,872 --> 00:16:18,832 Speaker 3: six in the morning, and Karen is screaming hysterically. Everyone 271 00:16:18,912 --> 00:16:21,712 Speaker 3: keeps talking about how crazy she's going at this scene, 272 00:16:21,712 --> 00:16:25,272 Speaker 3: while everyone else is very calm and they're just, you know, 273 00:16:25,392 --> 00:16:27,992 Speaker 3: kind of in shock that this is even happening to 274 00:16:28,272 --> 00:16:34,072 Speaker 3: their good friend John O'Keefe. And there are multiple accounts 275 00:16:34,752 --> 00:16:38,712 Speaker 3: that Karen said I hit him, I hit him, I 276 00:16:38,792 --> 00:16:43,512 Speaker 3: hit him, but nobody wrote it down in a single 277 00:16:43,552 --> 00:16:45,032 Speaker 3: report at the time. 278 00:16:46,152 --> 00:16:49,712 Speaker 2: There was also contention over the wording of that wasn't. 279 00:16:49,512 --> 00:16:54,152 Speaker 3: There right, And so she maintains that she did not 280 00:16:54,232 --> 00:16:57,632 Speaker 3: say I hit him. She maintains she asked did I 281 00:16:57,752 --> 00:17:01,992 Speaker 3: hit him? Could I have hit him? Because she's thinking 282 00:17:02,072 --> 00:17:05,032 Speaker 3: back to the night before when she dropped him off. 283 00:17:05,672 --> 00:17:07,712 Speaker 3: And so this is where it gets a little fuzzy, 284 00:17:07,752 --> 00:17:11,432 Speaker 3: because you either have to believe that she doesn't remember 285 00:17:11,512 --> 00:17:14,711 Speaker 3: anything about that night, or she's only remembering details, or 286 00:17:14,752 --> 00:17:18,751 Speaker 3: they're coming to her over time, which could happen. But 287 00:17:19,952 --> 00:17:23,071 Speaker 3: really everything about this case is really complicated by the 288 00:17:23,111 --> 00:17:28,032 Speaker 3: fact that nobody secures the scene. None of the officers 289 00:17:28,631 --> 00:17:33,832 Speaker 3: separate the witnesses. They never go into the home. Brian Albert, 290 00:17:34,111 --> 00:17:38,032 Speaker 3: a police officer and a first responder, never comes out 291 00:17:38,071 --> 00:17:42,631 Speaker 3: of his home to see what's going on outside. And 292 00:17:43,752 --> 00:17:49,392 Speaker 3: they start collecting evidence with red solo cups borrowed from 293 00:17:49,671 --> 00:17:52,471 Speaker 3: a cop neighbor who lives down the street. 294 00:17:53,111 --> 00:17:55,152 Speaker 2: That is a wild detile, isn't it. 295 00:17:55,712 --> 00:17:57,511 Speaker 3: I know it came out in the trial. It was 296 00:17:57,591 --> 00:17:59,431 Speaker 3: just like, how far away is the police department? You 297 00:17:59,512 --> 00:18:02,711 Speaker 3: guys don't have sterile plastic containers? What would take you 298 00:18:02,712 --> 00:18:06,032 Speaker 3: five minutes to get there? So they're clearly out of 299 00:18:06,032 --> 00:18:09,232 Speaker 3: their element. By the time the afternoon rolls around. Obviously 300 00:18:09,272 --> 00:18:11,032 Speaker 3: this case has been taken out of their hands and 301 00:18:11,071 --> 00:18:15,272 Speaker 3: it's given to the Massachusetts State Police. And this complicates 302 00:18:15,272 --> 00:18:19,792 Speaker 3: the case even more because the person assigned to investigate 303 00:18:19,831 --> 00:18:23,191 Speaker 3: this is Trooper Michael Proctor, and he is also a 304 00:18:23,232 --> 00:18:25,351 Speaker 3: friend of the homeowner. Brian Albert. 305 00:18:29,992 --> 00:18:33,631 Speaker 2: You're listening to true crime conversations with me Jim A. 306 00:18:33,671 --> 00:18:33,951 Speaker 1: Bath. 307 00:18:34,472 --> 00:18:43,392 Speaker 2: I'm speaking with Jessica Lautha about the trial of Karen Reid. 308 00:18:44,752 --> 00:18:49,631 Speaker 2: What is John's actual cause of death put down in 309 00:18:49,992 --> 00:18:51,552 Speaker 2: his autopsy report. 310 00:18:52,232 --> 00:18:56,431 Speaker 3: This is what's crazy, is that his cause of death 311 00:18:56,591 --> 00:19:01,231 Speaker 3: is blunt force trauma mixed with hypothermia. So if it 312 00:19:01,272 --> 00:19:04,991 Speaker 3: happened how the prosecution says it happened, is that Karen 313 00:19:05,032 --> 00:19:09,151 Speaker 3: Reid back up into John O'Keefe hit him with her 314 00:19:09,232 --> 00:19:12,831 Speaker 3: car and he laid there for six hours until someone 315 00:19:12,952 --> 00:19:18,111 Speaker 3: found him, and it was freezing cold, wind whipping snow 316 00:19:18,192 --> 00:19:22,271 Speaker 3: piling up. But what's so strange about that is that 317 00:19:22,311 --> 00:19:24,912 Speaker 3: there were a lot of people coming and going from 318 00:19:24,992 --> 00:19:30,831 Speaker 3: this party all night, and even the plow driver who 319 00:19:30,871 --> 00:19:33,471 Speaker 3: came through at two thirty in the morning has his 320 00:19:33,591 --> 00:19:36,071 Speaker 3: light shining and says he never sees anything in that 321 00:19:36,151 --> 00:19:38,431 Speaker 3: front lawn, and he would have noticed it because he 322 00:19:38,552 --> 00:19:44,231 Speaker 3: drives this route all the time. And they never determined 323 00:19:44,472 --> 00:19:49,232 Speaker 3: his manner of death, which is curious that you would 324 00:19:49,351 --> 00:19:51,791 Speaker 3: try to put someone on trial for murder without a 325 00:19:51,831 --> 00:19:53,512 Speaker 3: determined manner of death. 326 00:19:54,272 --> 00:19:57,952 Speaker 2: And there were, as you were saying before, quite bizarre 327 00:19:57,992 --> 00:20:01,911 Speaker 2: injuries on him. If you consider that, the prosecution thinks 328 00:20:01,952 --> 00:20:04,792 Speaker 2: that he was backed into. But he had bruises on 329 00:20:04,911 --> 00:20:09,032 Speaker 2: his eyes, and he had weird mocks on his arms. 330 00:20:10,111 --> 00:20:12,431 Speaker 3: And that's the thing, is that the prosecution has an 331 00:20:12,431 --> 00:20:15,831 Speaker 3: expert that testifies that these injuries are consistent with being 332 00:20:15,911 --> 00:20:19,112 Speaker 3: hit by a car, but the defense has an expert 333 00:20:19,151 --> 00:20:21,472 Speaker 3: that goes on and says they're not. This is consistent 334 00:20:21,512 --> 00:20:24,152 Speaker 3: with either a fight or an attack by an animal. 335 00:20:24,752 --> 00:20:26,512 Speaker 2: And there was an animal there wasn't there. 336 00:20:27,151 --> 00:20:29,992 Speaker 3: There was an animal there, and is if this story 337 00:20:30,032 --> 00:20:32,632 Speaker 3: is not crazy enough. Now a dog named Chloe becomes 338 00:20:32,671 --> 00:20:36,591 Speaker 3: a suspect. There's a German shepherd that's been living with 339 00:20:36,671 --> 00:20:42,071 Speaker 3: the Alberts for seven years, their beloved pet dog. And curiously, 340 00:20:43,111 --> 00:20:47,591 Speaker 3: they rehome this dog within months of John o'keeith's death. 341 00:20:48,071 --> 00:20:51,912 Speaker 3: And not only do they rehome the dog, they rehome themselves. 342 00:20:52,232 --> 00:20:55,231 Speaker 3: They buy a new home, even after they had just 343 00:20:55,311 --> 00:21:00,071 Speaker 3: renovated their entire basement. So a lot of curious things 344 00:21:00,192 --> 00:21:04,272 Speaker 3: going on, a lot of strange coincidences, I suppose. But 345 00:21:05,232 --> 00:21:09,111 Speaker 3: on the final day of the trial, before closing arguments, 346 00:21:09,911 --> 00:21:12,232 Speaker 3: they have an expert go up there and say, these 347 00:21:12,351 --> 00:21:15,751 Speaker 3: marks on John O'Keefe's arms are consistent with that of 348 00:21:15,871 --> 00:21:18,992 Speaker 3: dog claw marks and bites, and if you look at 349 00:21:19,032 --> 00:21:22,352 Speaker 3: the photos or look at other photos of dog attacks, 350 00:21:22,391 --> 00:21:27,552 Speaker 3: they look exactly the same. Nobody ever examined the dog. 351 00:21:27,631 --> 00:21:31,032 Speaker 3: The dog was living in Vermont, and they say that 352 00:21:31,111 --> 00:21:34,472 Speaker 3: they offered up the address of the dog if they 353 00:21:34,512 --> 00:21:38,752 Speaker 3: wanted to go interview her. But yeah, no one ever 354 00:21:38,831 --> 00:21:43,111 Speaker 3: really followed up with this lead. And because really the 355 00:21:43,192 --> 00:21:45,071 Speaker 3: crux of the story is is that they honed in 356 00:21:45,111 --> 00:21:50,751 Speaker 3: on Karen Reid from day one and they wanted someone 357 00:21:50,792 --> 00:21:54,032 Speaker 3: to blame this on, and they blamed it on her. 358 00:21:54,631 --> 00:21:58,951 Speaker 2: Well, she was arrested in early feb initially not charged 359 00:21:58,992 --> 00:22:03,712 Speaker 2: with murder, but quite quickly upgraded to murder two, which Frozzies, 360 00:22:03,792 --> 00:22:07,311 Speaker 2: is kind of like manslaughter. On what evidence was that 361 00:22:07,431 --> 00:22:10,791 Speaker 2: charge made? You've said that the prosecution claims that the 362 00:22:10,831 --> 00:22:14,831 Speaker 2: car backed into John, but what was the evidence that 363 00:22:14,831 --> 00:22:15,432 Speaker 2: that happened. 364 00:22:16,671 --> 00:22:21,232 Speaker 3: The evidence that they claim that proves Karen Reid hit 365 00:22:21,351 --> 00:22:25,232 Speaker 3: John O'Keefe with her SUV is that there were microscopic 366 00:22:25,552 --> 00:22:31,992 Speaker 3: tail light pieces found on him, and there were tail 367 00:22:32,071 --> 00:22:35,231 Speaker 3: light pieces that were found around the scene underneath the snow. 368 00:22:35,351 --> 00:22:38,552 Speaker 3: So after they use the leaf blower to push all 369 00:22:38,591 --> 00:22:41,471 Speaker 3: the snow away, the State Police finally come in with 370 00:22:41,552 --> 00:22:47,191 Speaker 3: shovels and find tail light pieces underneath the snow. And 371 00:22:47,232 --> 00:22:49,391 Speaker 3: so that's one of the contentious points of this case 372 00:22:49,431 --> 00:22:52,151 Speaker 3: is that nobody saw any tail light pieces until the 373 00:22:52,151 --> 00:22:56,671 Speaker 3: state police came in. And when you have an investigator 374 00:22:56,712 --> 00:22:59,232 Speaker 3: assigned to this case who has as much history as 375 00:22:59,512 --> 00:23:03,511 Speaker 3: Trooper Proctor does, this is when the conspiracy starts to 376 00:23:03,792 --> 00:23:05,992 Speaker 3: really really boil to the surface. 377 00:23:06,992 --> 00:23:10,111 Speaker 2: Was there anything that directly challenged that version of events? 378 00:23:10,111 --> 00:23:13,712 Speaker 2: I've said a lot of debate about that tilelight evidence. 379 00:23:14,752 --> 00:23:18,992 Speaker 3: Yeah, the tailight evidence is really kind of crazy because 380 00:23:19,111 --> 00:23:23,432 Speaker 3: even at the trial, the plastic bag that the tailight 381 00:23:23,472 --> 00:23:27,552 Speaker 3: pieces are in multiply over time, like the pieces multiply, 382 00:23:27,671 --> 00:23:30,231 Speaker 3: and so at one point there's only three, then there's five. 383 00:23:31,071 --> 00:23:34,552 Speaker 3: And even over the course of the investigation of this case, 384 00:23:35,151 --> 00:23:39,871 Speaker 3: they found tailight pieces near his body. Then they found 385 00:23:39,871 --> 00:23:43,952 Speaker 3: the microscopic pieces on him. But when you see pictures 386 00:23:44,032 --> 00:23:47,752 Speaker 3: of Karen's SUV, the taillight did not look as broken 387 00:23:47,911 --> 00:23:50,552 Speaker 3: when they brought the car in as it did when 388 00:23:50,831 --> 00:23:55,512 Speaker 3: it left there. And so there's this surveillance footage of 389 00:23:55,752 --> 00:23:59,871 Speaker 3: the quote Sally Port that the Massachusetts State Police brought 390 00:24:00,071 --> 00:24:03,032 Speaker 3: her suv to search it to give it a very 391 00:24:03,032 --> 00:24:07,392 Speaker 3: thorough look through. And one thing that the defense notices 392 00:24:07,512 --> 00:24:10,032 Speaker 3: right away is that this video appears to be inverted, 393 00:24:10,472 --> 00:24:14,511 Speaker 3: and so what looks to be the passenger side is 394 00:24:14,591 --> 00:24:17,471 Speaker 3: actually the driver side, and what looks to be the 395 00:24:17,552 --> 00:24:20,591 Speaker 3: driver side is actually the passenger side, and supposedly it's 396 00:24:20,631 --> 00:24:23,871 Speaker 3: the right rear tail light, so on the passenger side 397 00:24:23,871 --> 00:24:28,871 Speaker 3: that's broken, and on the video you see two people 398 00:24:28,952 --> 00:24:33,511 Speaker 3: walk by and appear to be fiddling with something. But 399 00:24:33,952 --> 00:24:37,752 Speaker 3: because this looks like it might be the driver's side, 400 00:24:38,151 --> 00:24:41,512 Speaker 3: nobody's really thinking anything of it until it's pointed out 401 00:24:41,552 --> 00:24:44,192 Speaker 3: in the trial that no, this video is inverted. They 402 00:24:44,232 --> 00:24:46,391 Speaker 3: see the number on the wall, the floor is backwards, 403 00:24:46,591 --> 00:24:52,111 Speaker 3: on the police cruiser is backwards, and so it's very, very, 404 00:24:52,232 --> 00:24:56,111 Speaker 3: very complicated. What they're implying through all of this is 405 00:24:56,151 --> 00:24:59,952 Speaker 3: that Trooper Procter planted evidence and purposely broke the tail 406 00:24:59,992 --> 00:25:02,391 Speaker 3: light and brought the tail light pieces back to the 407 00:25:02,431 --> 00:25:05,951 Speaker 3: scene to plant in the snow to frame kar and 408 00:25:05,992 --> 00:25:07,311 Speaker 3: read this murder. 409 00:25:07,552 --> 00:25:11,512 Speaker 2: Which is a huge thing to accuse local law enforcement 410 00:25:11,552 --> 00:25:11,871 Speaker 2: of doing. 411 00:25:11,952 --> 00:25:18,231 Speaker 3: Right m it's not unheard of. There's a history in 412 00:25:18,272 --> 00:25:21,471 Speaker 3: this area of not trusting law enforcement. A lot of 413 00:25:21,512 --> 00:25:24,231 Speaker 3: people don't trust authority, A lot of people don't trust 414 00:25:24,232 --> 00:25:29,071 Speaker 3: the police, And so you have like two sides forming 415 00:25:29,552 --> 00:25:34,032 Speaker 3: do you trust the police investigating this case or do 416 00:25:34,071 --> 00:25:37,032 Speaker 3: you believe that this woman is being railroaded in the 417 00:25:37,071 --> 00:25:40,831 Speaker 3: death of her cop boyfriend. But it's not unheard of 418 00:25:41,311 --> 00:25:47,392 Speaker 3: for this area to be suspicious of these investigators, and 419 00:25:48,431 --> 00:25:51,231 Speaker 3: turns out a lot of them were right based on 420 00:25:51,472 --> 00:25:52,951 Speaker 3: what happens after the trial. 421 00:25:53,992 --> 00:25:58,752 Speaker 2: But what reason would these cops have to frame her? 422 00:25:58,952 --> 00:26:02,192 Speaker 2: What do they say happened? The defense to John. 423 00:26:03,311 --> 00:26:07,351 Speaker 3: The defensive theory of what happened that night is that 424 00:26:08,111 --> 00:26:11,752 Speaker 3: Karen drops John O'Keeffe off at the Alberts. He goes 425 00:26:11,792 --> 00:26:18,111 Speaker 3: into the house and is immediately confronted by people in 426 00:26:18,151 --> 00:26:22,432 Speaker 3: the basement of the albert home. There's a weight room 427 00:26:22,512 --> 00:26:25,472 Speaker 3: down there, and they think that a fight broke out 428 00:26:25,512 --> 00:26:29,191 Speaker 3: pretty quickly. Someone may have hit John O'Keefe with a 429 00:26:29,232 --> 00:26:32,272 Speaker 3: dumbbell on the back of the head, maybe punched him 430 00:26:32,391 --> 00:26:36,552 Speaker 3: in the face, and then maybe perhaps he fought back 431 00:26:36,871 --> 00:26:40,671 Speaker 3: and the dog intervened and the dog attacked him. And 432 00:26:42,151 --> 00:26:48,272 Speaker 3: I don't think anyone intended for John O'Keefe to die. 433 00:26:48,472 --> 00:26:51,152 Speaker 3: Now this is all alleged. This is a house full 434 00:26:51,192 --> 00:26:54,871 Speaker 3: of law enforcement, so they have to spend the next 435 00:26:54,911 --> 00:26:57,591 Speaker 3: few hours trying to figure out what to do. And 436 00:26:59,431 --> 00:27:02,871 Speaker 3: their theory is that they bring the body out through 437 00:27:03,032 --> 00:27:07,111 Speaker 3: this back set of stars from the base to the 438 00:27:07,151 --> 00:27:10,191 Speaker 3: backyard and bring the body around to the front yard 439 00:27:10,351 --> 00:27:17,912 Speaker 3: and lay him there with his phone underneath him. 440 00:27:17,992 --> 00:27:21,272 Speaker 2: Up next, we delve deeper into the trial that captivated 441 00:27:21,272 --> 00:27:24,232 Speaker 2: the world and the text messages that put a lead 442 00:27:24,351 --> 00:27:34,392 Speaker 2: investigator on notice. 443 00:27:34,591 --> 00:27:38,911 Speaker 3: And he lies there until Karen finds him at six 444 00:27:38,952 --> 00:27:45,232 Speaker 3: in the morning. And so how does this turn into 445 00:27:45,431 --> 00:27:48,911 Speaker 3: a big cover up? Is that Trooper Proctor again is 446 00:27:49,032 --> 00:27:52,591 Speaker 3: friends with Brian Albert. There is a thin blue line 447 00:27:53,752 --> 00:27:59,272 Speaker 3: cops protect other cops, and cops don't get in trouble 448 00:27:59,311 --> 00:28:02,192 Speaker 3: for these types of things, and we don't investigate other 449 00:28:02,311 --> 00:28:07,431 Speaker 3: cops and especially not our friends. And so Truect obviously 450 00:28:07,512 --> 00:28:09,631 Speaker 3: knew when he was pulling up to this house that 451 00:28:09,671 --> 00:28:12,351 Speaker 3: this was the house of his friend Brian Albert. He 452 00:28:12,472 --> 00:28:15,151 Speaker 3: chose not to go in and interview, he chose not 453 00:28:15,232 --> 00:28:17,911 Speaker 3: to lock down the crime scene, he chose not to 454 00:28:17,952 --> 00:28:21,912 Speaker 3: separate the witnesses, and there were a lot of missteps, 455 00:28:21,952 --> 00:28:25,151 Speaker 3: and all of this is captured in his own text 456 00:28:25,151 --> 00:28:28,311 Speaker 3: messages that he embarrassingly has to read on the stand 457 00:28:29,151 --> 00:28:33,871 Speaker 3: in front of the world, where he admits that he's 458 00:28:33,911 --> 00:28:36,431 Speaker 3: gonna make this case cut and dried and pin it 459 00:28:36,512 --> 00:28:39,392 Speaker 3: on the girl, and the girl is Karen Reid, And 460 00:28:39,431 --> 00:28:42,832 Speaker 3: then there's a lot of horrible text messages where he's 461 00:28:43,352 --> 00:28:47,192 Speaker 3: talking about her body and how hot she is and 462 00:28:47,232 --> 00:28:50,832 Speaker 3: how he hates her accent, and he calls her the 463 00:28:50,911 --> 00:28:54,271 Speaker 3: C word, and you know, there's just a lot of 464 00:28:54,392 --> 00:28:58,752 Speaker 3: really disgusting things said by this man to his superiors. 465 00:28:59,632 --> 00:29:02,192 Speaker 3: So you can tell this is kind of a culture, right, 466 00:29:02,792 --> 00:29:07,232 Speaker 3: a culture in this department, in this lawn or smith community, 467 00:29:07,712 --> 00:29:10,992 Speaker 3: that they can do anything and get away with it, 468 00:29:11,472 --> 00:29:14,592 Speaker 3: and even so far as to say no nudes yet 469 00:29:14,632 --> 00:29:19,352 Speaker 3: because he was going through Karen's phone, Oh my gosh. Yeah, 470 00:29:20,352 --> 00:29:24,392 Speaker 3: So all of this combined it makes it look like 471 00:29:24,431 --> 00:29:26,911 Speaker 3: a cover up. It makes it look from the beginning that, 472 00:29:27,032 --> 00:29:30,352 Speaker 3: you know what, this was Brian's house. We can't have 473 00:29:30,392 --> 00:29:33,872 Speaker 3: this on Brian. Let's just pin it on the girl, like, 474 00:29:34,032 --> 00:29:36,512 Speaker 3: let's just put it on her. And this didn't even 475 00:29:36,552 --> 00:29:39,552 Speaker 3: have to be a murder case. This didn't even have 476 00:29:39,632 --> 00:29:41,471 Speaker 3: to go to trial. When you really think about it, 477 00:29:41,512 --> 00:29:43,991 Speaker 3: this could have just been an accident. I don't know 478 00:29:44,552 --> 00:29:47,312 Speaker 3: if the defensis theory is correct. I don't know if 479 00:29:47,312 --> 00:29:49,752 Speaker 3: this was planned from the beginning to pin it on Karen, 480 00:29:49,832 --> 00:29:53,312 Speaker 3: or whether it just happened naturally after she supposedly said 481 00:29:53,352 --> 00:29:56,672 Speaker 3: I hit him at the scene. It all starts to 482 00:29:56,712 --> 00:29:59,911 Speaker 3: build and build and build to make for a very 483 00:30:00,112 --> 00:30:05,872 Speaker 3: very interesting case with a trial that riveted thousands and 484 00:30:06,392 --> 00:30:09,471 Speaker 3: hook over TikTok for like an entire week while Trooper 485 00:30:09,512 --> 00:30:13,032 Speaker 3: Proctors reading these text messages on the stand, apparently to 486 00:30:13,112 --> 00:30:15,992 Speaker 3: the horrified jurors we spoke to. Our reporter said that 487 00:30:16,072 --> 00:30:20,272 Speaker 3: the jurors were just disgusted visibly by these text messages 488 00:30:20,392 --> 00:30:23,911 Speaker 3: and by Trooper Proctor. And one interesting thing to note 489 00:30:23,911 --> 00:30:27,231 Speaker 3: is that the jurors, who are a very important element 490 00:30:27,272 --> 00:30:30,432 Speaker 3: of this case, they were not allowed to be aware 491 00:30:30,952 --> 00:30:35,152 Speaker 3: that Trooper Proctor was under investigation at this time for 492 00:30:35,392 --> 00:30:38,991 Speaker 3: his behavior on this case. They're not allowed to know that, 493 00:30:39,032 --> 00:30:41,312 Speaker 3: and they're not supposed to be looking up information about 494 00:30:41,312 --> 00:30:43,952 Speaker 3: the case after they leave. They're not sequestered, so it's 495 00:30:43,992 --> 00:30:46,752 Speaker 3: not like they're staying in a hotel with no TV. 496 00:30:47,032 --> 00:30:50,431 Speaker 3: No phone, no news. They're just not supposed to be 497 00:30:50,671 --> 00:30:52,432 Speaker 3: talking about it and they're not supposed to be looking 498 00:30:52,472 --> 00:30:56,872 Speaker 3: up in information about it. So not having that information 499 00:30:57,192 --> 00:30:59,471 Speaker 3: is pretty interesting. But I think he kind of you 500 00:30:59,671 --> 00:31:03,992 Speaker 3: said it all himself on the stand before. 501 00:31:03,712 --> 00:31:05,992 Speaker 2: We get more into the trial. I think it's worth 502 00:31:06,472 --> 00:31:10,272 Speaker 2: tracking a bit to TikTok because, as you mentioned, this 503 00:31:10,392 --> 00:31:13,392 Speaker 2: case exploded. People might have heard of book talk. There's 504 00:31:13,431 --> 00:31:15,592 Speaker 2: also crime talk out there, and this was one of 505 00:31:15,671 --> 00:31:19,352 Speaker 2: those cases that just captivated the internet. And I need 506 00:31:19,352 --> 00:31:21,231 Speaker 2: to bring in Turtle Boy because he's one of the 507 00:31:21,272 --> 00:31:24,072 Speaker 2: main reasons for that. Who on earth is Turtle Boy 508 00:31:24,232 --> 00:31:26,711 Speaker 2: and why is he kind of the one that helped 509 00:31:26,712 --> 00:31:27,471 Speaker 2: fuel all of this? 510 00:31:28,352 --> 00:31:31,471 Speaker 3: Yeah, So Aidan Kearney is his real name, and he 511 00:31:31,792 --> 00:31:36,152 Speaker 3: goes by Turtle Boy. He's a local Massachusetts blogger. He's 512 00:31:36,392 --> 00:31:39,112 Speaker 3: had this blog for over ten years, and he's really 513 00:31:39,152 --> 00:31:42,152 Speaker 3: known for his bravado and his kind of like take 514 00:31:42,272 --> 00:31:46,711 Speaker 3: no shit attitude. He's credited with bringing the Reed trial 515 00:31:46,792 --> 00:31:50,872 Speaker 3: to the public's attention and mobilizing the quote Free Karen 516 00:31:50,952 --> 00:31:54,751 Speaker 3: Reid movement that ended up resulting in crowds and crowds 517 00:31:54,752 --> 00:31:58,032 Speaker 3: of people forming outside of the courthouse wearing these pink 518 00:31:58,072 --> 00:32:01,472 Speaker 3: shirts and solidarity with Karen with their signs, and it 519 00:32:01,512 --> 00:32:03,471 Speaker 3: really kind of took on the air of like a 520 00:32:03,512 --> 00:32:08,392 Speaker 3: celebrity trial for this tiny little town in Massachusetts. And 521 00:32:08,431 --> 00:32:13,632 Speaker 3: that's all because of Aiden Kearney and he through our podcast, 522 00:32:13,872 --> 00:32:18,632 Speaker 3: which is just you know, affectually called Karen, we found 523 00:32:18,832 --> 00:32:23,271 Speaker 3: that Aiden Kearney was actually pretty heavily involved with the 524 00:32:23,312 --> 00:32:26,752 Speaker 3: defense before this case went to trial. He fed them 525 00:32:26,872 --> 00:32:31,751 Speaker 3: a lot of information about the Alberts and the mccabs 526 00:32:31,952 --> 00:32:34,352 Speaker 3: and he found a lot of this through his own 527 00:32:34,392 --> 00:32:39,352 Speaker 3: investigative work. Now he has been charged with witness intimidation 528 00:32:39,712 --> 00:32:42,112 Speaker 3: and so you know, he's not a perfect person to 529 00:32:42,152 --> 00:32:45,191 Speaker 3: be aligned with as a defense attorney. But at the 530 00:32:45,232 --> 00:32:50,231 Speaker 3: same time, he really exposed the police cover up and 531 00:32:50,272 --> 00:32:53,832 Speaker 3: the corruption in this town and the conspiracy surrounding this 532 00:32:53,952 --> 00:32:54,832 Speaker 3: case in particular. 533 00:32:55,552 --> 00:32:58,152 Speaker 2: He was also quite involved with Karen Rott. 534 00:32:58,472 --> 00:33:02,792 Speaker 3: Mm hmm. So it turns out that Turtle Boy and 535 00:33:02,872 --> 00:33:05,592 Speaker 3: Karen were talking a lot. They talked a lot on 536 00:33:05,632 --> 00:33:09,032 Speaker 3: the phone. There was dozens and dozens of phone calls 537 00:33:09,032 --> 00:33:12,232 Speaker 3: between the two of them. She would feed him information, 538 00:33:12,392 --> 00:33:16,431 Speaker 3: he would feed her information, and yeah, they were pretty 539 00:33:16,512 --> 00:33:20,552 Speaker 3: chummy there at the beginning, and I don't necessarily think 540 00:33:20,592 --> 00:33:22,552 Speaker 3: this is a bad thing as long as you know 541 00:33:22,632 --> 00:33:25,352 Speaker 3: he has sources to back up like what he's saying. 542 00:33:26,072 --> 00:33:30,272 Speaker 3: But the defense was basically given a gift in aiding 543 00:33:30,352 --> 00:33:35,352 Speaker 3: Kearney to really bolster this conspiracy theory. 544 00:33:36,431 --> 00:33:38,232 Speaker 2: Let's get to the trial, because it was a very 545 00:33:38,272 --> 00:33:42,312 Speaker 2: long trial went for nine ten weeks, which is huge 546 00:33:42,671 --> 00:33:46,752 Speaker 2: for something like this. Was there anything that stood out 547 00:33:46,792 --> 00:33:49,312 Speaker 2: to you? Obviously we knew all of this web that 548 00:33:49,352 --> 00:33:53,472 Speaker 2: had been built beforehand, all of these players. How did 549 00:33:53,472 --> 00:33:54,272 Speaker 2: you find the trial? 550 00:33:55,632 --> 00:34:01,511 Speaker 3: The trial was super entertaining and long and maybe a 551 00:34:01,512 --> 00:34:07,431 Speaker 3: bit in the weeds more than people really want to experience. 552 00:34:07,512 --> 00:34:10,672 Speaker 3: You know, in your regular courtroom drama that you're watching, 553 00:34:10,712 --> 00:34:13,032 Speaker 3: you only get the fiery good stuff, which there was 554 00:34:13,112 --> 00:34:15,591 Speaker 3: a ton of that in this trial. There was a 555 00:34:15,592 --> 00:34:17,872 Speaker 3: lot of funny moments on the stand, a lot of 556 00:34:18,792 --> 00:34:22,952 Speaker 3: people who maybe could have used some better prep before 557 00:34:22,991 --> 00:34:26,352 Speaker 3: they went on the stand to testify. But in the end, 558 00:34:26,392 --> 00:34:31,832 Speaker 3: this was a very emotional, very heated, very caustic trial 559 00:34:32,392 --> 00:34:37,832 Speaker 3: with really great defenders of Karen Reid. Her defense attorneys 560 00:34:37,911 --> 00:34:43,272 Speaker 3: were top notch. They gave great performances in front of 561 00:34:43,272 --> 00:34:46,832 Speaker 3: this jury, and the prosecution in turn ended up looking 562 00:34:46,872 --> 00:34:49,911 Speaker 3: a little silly because they brought all of these witnesses 563 00:34:50,712 --> 00:34:56,312 Speaker 3: who basically have nothing to say. They all agree that 564 00:34:56,431 --> 00:34:59,751 Speaker 3: John O'Keeffe never entered the house. They quote the guy 565 00:34:59,832 --> 00:35:02,511 Speaker 3: never went in the house. And the thing about that 566 00:35:02,632 --> 00:35:05,471 Speaker 3: is is that they're all on text messages together like 567 00:35:05,511 --> 00:35:08,392 Speaker 3: a text chain, kind of looking like they're trying to 568 00:35:08,392 --> 00:35:12,031 Speaker 3: get their story straight. And so all these people are 569 00:35:12,031 --> 00:35:15,911 Speaker 3: on the stand being grilled about these text messages. And 570 00:35:16,272 --> 00:35:18,312 Speaker 3: that's the other thing. When you're a witness in a 571 00:35:18,352 --> 00:35:20,352 Speaker 3: case like this, you have to turn over your phones, 572 00:35:20,911 --> 00:35:25,551 Speaker 3: and everyone did except for Brian Albert and Brian Higgins, 573 00:35:25,632 --> 00:35:29,711 Speaker 3: because their phones were destroyed right before the police were 574 00:35:29,752 --> 00:35:33,432 Speaker 3: able to collect them, which ends up becoming a pretty 575 00:35:33,511 --> 00:35:36,832 Speaker 3: huge part of Brian Higgins's testimony so far. This is 576 00:35:36,832 --> 00:35:39,272 Speaker 3: the standout moment to me, besides the Trooper Proctor stuff, 577 00:35:39,272 --> 00:35:43,552 Speaker 3: which was absolutely insane and at least mildly entertaining. Brian 578 00:35:43,632 --> 00:35:48,991 Speaker 3: Higgins admits to destroying his phone, not backing it up, 579 00:35:49,112 --> 00:35:53,312 Speaker 3: and taking the SIM card out of his phone and 580 00:35:53,592 --> 00:35:56,832 Speaker 3: driving to a military base to dispose of it in 581 00:35:56,911 --> 00:36:00,392 Speaker 3: a bag along with his phone, and the only thing 582 00:36:00,672 --> 00:36:04,712 Speaker 3: that he saved were his text between Karen and John. 583 00:36:05,872 --> 00:36:08,832 Speaker 2: And to be clear, this is the Brian that was 584 00:36:08,872 --> 00:36:14,951 Speaker 2: sharing flirtatious text messages with correct. Okay, I want to 585 00:36:14,951 --> 00:36:19,232 Speaker 2: bring in a search term used by Karen, either before 586 00:36:19,312 --> 00:36:21,672 Speaker 2: or after she found John's body, because it's also a 587 00:36:21,712 --> 00:36:24,672 Speaker 2: really important thing to bring in. The text or the 588 00:36:24,752 --> 00:36:28,872 Speaker 2: search is how long to die in cold? Why was 589 00:36:28,911 --> 00:36:30,872 Speaker 2: that so heavily scrutinized. 590 00:36:32,431 --> 00:36:38,152 Speaker 3: Jennifer McCabe is the prosecution's star witness, or so they think, 591 00:36:38,431 --> 00:36:41,112 Speaker 3: and they put her on the stand. She's very confident 592 00:36:41,232 --> 00:36:44,272 Speaker 3: on her first day on the stand against some pretty 593 00:36:44,312 --> 00:36:48,792 Speaker 3: tough cross examination. But there's this Google search that happened 594 00:36:49,991 --> 00:36:52,992 Speaker 3: at around six point thirty in the morning, six twenty 595 00:36:53,031 --> 00:36:57,991 Speaker 3: two and six twenty three am, where she says that 596 00:36:58,392 --> 00:37:01,471 Speaker 3: Karen told her to google how long does it take 597 00:37:01,551 --> 00:37:03,872 Speaker 3: for a person to die in the cold, And because 598 00:37:03,872 --> 00:37:08,111 Speaker 3: it's such a chaotic scene, it's so cool, she mistypes 599 00:37:08,152 --> 00:37:10,471 Speaker 3: it and ends up being like how slung to die 600 00:37:10,511 --> 00:37:14,111 Speaker 3: in cold? And colds? Misspelled? And how's misspelled? And the 601 00:37:14,152 --> 00:37:18,991 Speaker 3: search is done twice. But when this data is analyzed 602 00:37:19,072 --> 00:37:22,752 Speaker 3: by this company called Celebrate, it turns out that the 603 00:37:22,832 --> 00:37:28,352 Speaker 3: first time this was searched was at two twenty seven am. 604 00:37:28,752 --> 00:37:34,111 Speaker 3: So if Jennifer McCabe, the sister in law of the homeowner, 605 00:37:34,832 --> 00:37:37,191 Speaker 3: was searching how long to die in the cold at 606 00:37:37,192 --> 00:37:44,272 Speaker 3: two twenty seven am, this exonerates Karen because clearly someone 607 00:37:44,792 --> 00:37:48,872 Speaker 3: in that house knew that someone was outside dying and 608 00:37:48,911 --> 00:37:54,792 Speaker 3: they did nothing about it. However, the Celebrate expert that 609 00:37:54,872 --> 00:38:02,072 Speaker 3: the prosecution uses says this search did not take place 610 00:38:02,232 --> 00:38:05,792 Speaker 3: at two twenty seven in the morning. She had a 611 00:38:05,872 --> 00:38:09,392 Speaker 3: browse are opened at twenty seven in the morning, and 612 00:38:09,431 --> 00:38:12,272 Speaker 3: when she went to go Google it at six twenty 613 00:38:12,272 --> 00:38:16,792 Speaker 3: two in the morning, it made it look like because 614 00:38:16,832 --> 00:38:19,272 Speaker 3: she had just used the same browser that she was 615 00:38:19,352 --> 00:38:22,111 Speaker 3: using at two thirty am looking up basketball stuff for 616 00:38:22,152 --> 00:38:24,511 Speaker 3: her daughter, it made it look like the search was 617 00:38:24,551 --> 00:38:28,312 Speaker 3: actually performed then, but that's just when the browser was 618 00:38:28,392 --> 00:38:35,072 Speaker 3: last used. However, the defense argues the opposite that they 619 00:38:35,112 --> 00:38:38,392 Speaker 3: have a newer version of the Celebrate data and that 620 00:38:38,511 --> 00:38:41,752 Speaker 3: proves that the search was conducted at two twenty seven 621 00:38:41,832 --> 00:38:46,752 Speaker 3: am and also again when instructed by Karen Reid to 622 00:38:46,872 --> 00:38:51,192 Speaker 3: perform the search. So I mean, ultimately, if the search 623 00:38:51,272 --> 00:38:54,192 Speaker 3: did not happen at two twenty seven am, this evidence 624 00:38:54,272 --> 00:38:57,272 Speaker 3: is completely like moot, it doesn't matter. But this is 625 00:38:57,312 --> 00:39:01,071 Speaker 3: like three days of the trial is going over this 626 00:39:01,192 --> 00:39:01,832 Speaker 3: search term. 627 00:39:02,072 --> 00:39:04,951 Speaker 2: Well, this just gives you a taste of just how 628 00:39:04,991 --> 00:39:09,992 Speaker 2: confusing this hest becomes and how complicated all of these 629 00:39:10,511 --> 00:39:14,471 Speaker 2: moving parts are. I don't envy the jury. How did 630 00:39:14,551 --> 00:39:15,232 Speaker 2: that go with it? 631 00:39:16,431 --> 00:39:19,392 Speaker 3: So the jury deliberated for over twenty hours over the 632 00:39:19,431 --> 00:39:23,752 Speaker 3: course of five days and lawng Crime. We live streamed 633 00:39:23,792 --> 00:39:28,872 Speaker 3: the entire trial. We had forty thousand people watching. I 634 00:39:28,872 --> 00:39:31,032 Speaker 3: think like at the most there was like fifty thousand 635 00:39:31,031 --> 00:39:34,272 Speaker 3: people on the live stream at the highest peak. And 636 00:39:35,272 --> 00:39:38,192 Speaker 3: it was a Friday afternoon. Everyone thought, we're going to 637 00:39:38,232 --> 00:39:41,111 Speaker 3: get a verdict. The jurors surely want to be done 638 00:39:41,152 --> 00:39:43,752 Speaker 3: with this, right, Well, no, they decide they want to 639 00:39:43,752 --> 00:39:45,671 Speaker 3: take the weekend to think about it, and they come 640 00:39:45,712 --> 00:39:50,111 Speaker 3: back on Monday and they say they're deadlocked. They say 641 00:39:50,112 --> 00:39:54,431 Speaker 3: they cannot come to a unanimous decision and that if 642 00:39:54,511 --> 00:40:00,952 Speaker 3: they were to continue deliberating, it would only result in 643 00:40:01,031 --> 00:40:05,991 Speaker 3: one of them having to compromise on their beliefs, and 644 00:40:06,392 --> 00:40:08,592 Speaker 3: they didn't feel like they were going to be able 645 00:40:08,632 --> 00:40:12,312 Speaker 3: to do that, And so they deliver this super eloquent 646 00:40:12,431 --> 00:40:15,872 Speaker 3: message to the judge. The judge accepts it and declares 647 00:40:16,031 --> 00:40:20,192 Speaker 3: a mistrial, which did not surprise a lot of the 648 00:40:20,272 --> 00:40:24,591 Speaker 3: legal analysts and reporters watching this case, because, as you 649 00:40:24,632 --> 00:40:28,712 Speaker 3: can tell everything we've talked about, this was pretty complicated. 650 00:40:28,951 --> 00:40:31,272 Speaker 3: You know, in essence, it's a he said, she said 651 00:40:31,551 --> 00:40:34,192 Speaker 3: with a lot of the evidence, like they say this 652 00:40:34,312 --> 00:40:36,471 Speaker 3: tail light evidence was there, and the other side says 653 00:40:36,471 --> 00:40:39,552 Speaker 3: it wasn't. And so that's basically like the Google search, 654 00:40:40,112 --> 00:40:44,672 Speaker 3: the tail light, the body itself, everything has two sides 655 00:40:44,712 --> 00:40:47,952 Speaker 3: to it, and so it's no surprise that these jurors 656 00:40:47,991 --> 00:40:51,872 Speaker 3: weren't unable to come to a unanimous decision. In my opinion, Well, 657 00:40:51,911 --> 00:40:52,111 Speaker 3: at the. 658 00:40:52,152 --> 00:40:53,752 Speaker 2: End of the day, all you have to do is 659 00:40:53,832 --> 00:40:56,471 Speaker 2: prove that there is reasonable doubt. 660 00:40:57,312 --> 00:41:00,591 Speaker 3: Well exactly, and so a lot of people that we 661 00:41:00,672 --> 00:41:04,352 Speaker 3: talked to for the podcast actually said that that was 662 00:41:04,471 --> 00:41:08,471 Speaker 3: an interesting position for Alan Jackson and David Ynetti to take, 663 00:41:09,192 --> 00:41:12,392 Speaker 3: was to come up with this third culprit theory. And 664 00:41:12,431 --> 00:41:14,872 Speaker 3: you know, they fought in pre trial hearings to even 665 00:41:14,911 --> 00:41:19,431 Speaker 3: be able to bring this into the trial because the 666 00:41:19,471 --> 00:41:22,071 Speaker 3: American legal system is absolutely insane. You have to like 667 00:41:22,152 --> 00:41:26,072 Speaker 3: have a bajillion pre trial hearings in order to present 668 00:41:26,232 --> 00:41:29,671 Speaker 3: anything that you basically want to say, And so they 669 00:41:29,712 --> 00:41:32,991 Speaker 3: had to get permission to be able to say, if 670 00:41:33,031 --> 00:41:37,111 Speaker 3: she didn't do it, someone else did, and we want 671 00:41:37,152 --> 00:41:39,951 Speaker 3: to say there's a third party culprit, and we want 672 00:41:40,031 --> 00:41:43,511 Speaker 3: to explain how we think it happened. And so a 673 00:41:43,511 --> 00:41:46,832 Speaker 3: lot of people said there was enough reasonable doubt without 674 00:41:46,991 --> 00:41:50,712 Speaker 3: even this theory that he was beat up in the home, 675 00:41:51,152 --> 00:41:54,591 Speaker 3: dragged out of the back the basement, left there to 676 00:41:54,712 --> 00:41:57,352 Speaker 3: die by this group of people, and that fifty people 677 00:41:57,392 --> 00:42:00,911 Speaker 3: in the end end up agreeing to this one story 678 00:42:01,112 --> 00:42:04,632 Speaker 3: to protect themselves and blame it all on this one woman. 679 00:42:05,392 --> 00:42:08,752 Speaker 3: Was that even necessary, because if you strip all that away, 680 00:42:09,632 --> 00:42:13,112 Speaker 3: there is so much reasonable doubt even with the story 681 00:42:13,192 --> 00:42:17,392 Speaker 3: the prosecution wanted the jury to believe. So if this 682 00:42:17,551 --> 00:42:20,352 Speaker 3: case does end up going to a new trial, which 683 00:42:20,632 --> 00:42:23,392 Speaker 3: the prosecution has said that they intend to retry the case, 684 00:42:24,112 --> 00:42:26,672 Speaker 3: Karen's team says that they are ready for the fight. 685 00:42:27,471 --> 00:42:31,072 Speaker 3: But there was a motion to dismiss in early August, 686 00:42:31,511 --> 00:42:34,352 Speaker 3: and the judge is still considering that motion as we 687 00:42:34,392 --> 00:42:38,231 Speaker 3: speak now, and the new trials already set for late 688 00:42:38,312 --> 00:42:40,191 Speaker 3: January five five. 689 00:42:41,551 --> 00:42:44,272 Speaker 2: A few things did happen not long after that mistrial, 690 00:42:44,312 --> 00:42:46,911 Speaker 2: which is not that long ago from when we're having 691 00:42:46,951 --> 00:42:51,152 Speaker 2: this conversation Michael Procter. He was relieved of his duty 692 00:42:51,272 --> 00:42:55,312 Speaker 2: then suspended without pay. Was that surprising, not at all. 693 00:42:55,392 --> 00:42:59,272 Speaker 3: I think a lot of people were suspecting that they 694 00:42:59,312 --> 00:43:02,272 Speaker 3: wanted to relieve him of his duties during the trial, 695 00:43:02,352 --> 00:43:06,312 Speaker 3: but they didn't want to complicate matters or mess up 696 00:43:06,471 --> 00:43:09,952 Speaker 3: the case for the prosecution. So, yeah, he was relieved 697 00:43:09,951 --> 00:43:13,272 Speaker 3: of his duties. And then it's revealed that there are 698 00:43:13,352 --> 00:43:15,751 Speaker 3: two more people from the state Police that are being 699 00:43:15,792 --> 00:43:21,552 Speaker 3: investigated for their actions in this case. So that's three 700 00:43:23,431 --> 00:43:28,832 Speaker 3: investigators compromised. And that's a problem for the prosecution because 701 00:43:28,832 --> 00:43:30,392 Speaker 3: if you really are going to want to bring this 702 00:43:30,511 --> 00:43:33,191 Speaker 3: case to trial, you have three poison apples who are 703 00:43:33,312 --> 00:43:36,991 Speaker 3: supposed to be your line of protection, Like these are 704 00:43:37,031 --> 00:43:39,712 Speaker 3: the people that were supposed to trust or the authority. 705 00:43:39,712 --> 00:43:41,872 Speaker 3: We're supposed to be able to believe everything that they 706 00:43:41,872 --> 00:43:45,192 Speaker 3: say on the stand because they're the ones investigating. And 707 00:43:46,232 --> 00:43:47,711 Speaker 3: what do you do after that? 708 00:43:49,152 --> 00:43:51,471 Speaker 2: Do you honestly think, after digging so deep into this 709 00:43:51,592 --> 00:43:55,431 Speaker 2: case that we could see a different result if this 710 00:43:55,511 --> 00:43:56,392 Speaker 2: goes to trial again? 711 00:43:57,672 --> 00:44:00,191 Speaker 3: It's hard to say. I mean, I do wonder how 712 00:44:00,272 --> 00:44:03,352 Speaker 3: the defense would maybe change course, if they're going to 713 00:44:03,471 --> 00:44:07,872 Speaker 3: still stick with this third party call brit Defense, or 714 00:44:08,031 --> 00:44:11,991 Speaker 3: if they are just going to allow the prosecution to 715 00:44:12,112 --> 00:44:15,232 Speaker 3: dig their own graves, so to speak, and just allow 716 00:44:15,392 --> 00:44:20,312 Speaker 3: the reasonable doubt to shine, because there really is no 717 00:44:20,511 --> 00:44:27,152 Speaker 3: solid proof that Karen Reid killed John O'Keefe, and murder 718 00:44:27,192 --> 00:44:30,832 Speaker 3: too is manslaughter, but there's also no intent there. And 719 00:44:31,312 --> 00:44:35,312 Speaker 3: does this woman deserve to spend upwards of twenty plus 720 00:44:35,431 --> 00:44:39,232 Speaker 3: years in prison for an accident? You know, obviously this 721 00:44:39,352 --> 00:44:46,072 Speaker 3: family deserves justice, and they are very upset with how 722 00:44:46,872 --> 00:44:50,031 Speaker 3: famous this case has become and how Karen Reid's popularity 723 00:44:50,072 --> 00:44:53,832 Speaker 3: has grown over this, and they deserve some kind of closure. 724 00:44:54,352 --> 00:44:58,352 Speaker 3: But I just don't know if any closure will come 725 00:44:58,352 --> 00:45:03,071 Speaker 3: from another trial unless new evidence is uncovered. 726 00:45:03,911 --> 00:45:05,951 Speaker 2: The other thing to come out after the mistrial was 727 00:45:05,991 --> 00:45:08,511 Speaker 2: the RS actually coming forward and speaking, which I'm not 728 00:45:08,551 --> 00:45:12,192 Speaker 2: sure is completely legal, but what did they actually say? 729 00:45:13,072 --> 00:45:17,712 Speaker 3: So after the mistrial was declared and Trooper Proctor was 730 00:45:17,792 --> 00:45:21,911 Speaker 3: fired from the Massachusetts State Police, a lot of jurors, 731 00:45:22,192 --> 00:45:26,631 Speaker 3: forgers to be exact, came forward pretty quickly, and they 732 00:45:26,672 --> 00:45:29,232 Speaker 3: went to Alan Jackson and David Ynetti first, and they said, 733 00:45:29,792 --> 00:45:34,551 Speaker 3: we reached two unanimous decisions. Out of the three charges. 734 00:45:35,192 --> 00:45:39,231 Speaker 3: We reached unanimous decisions on two of the charges. There 735 00:45:39,272 --> 00:45:42,471 Speaker 3: was only one we couldn't agree on, which this was 736 00:45:42,511 --> 00:45:46,072 Speaker 3: actually a big part of the arguments on the defensive 737 00:45:46,112 --> 00:45:49,191 Speaker 3: side during the trial is that the jury instructions were 738 00:45:49,352 --> 00:45:54,632 Speaker 3: very confusing, and they felt that they were purposely confusing, 739 00:45:54,712 --> 00:45:57,471 Speaker 3: and that the judge didn't write them out correctly or 740 00:45:57,471 --> 00:45:59,991 Speaker 3: didn't explain them correctly, and so it could lead to 741 00:46:00,031 --> 00:46:03,832 Speaker 3: something like this happening. And a bunch of jurors then 742 00:46:03,872 --> 00:46:06,751 Speaker 3: went to the District attorney's office and said this thing. 743 00:46:07,352 --> 00:46:11,671 Speaker 3: And the reason why this is important is because in 744 00:46:11,712 --> 00:46:15,911 Speaker 3: the United States of America, there's this rule called double jeopardy, 745 00:46:16,312 --> 00:46:22,272 Speaker 3: and you cannot be prosecuted again for the same charges 746 00:46:22,672 --> 00:46:28,071 Speaker 3: if a jury found you innocent of them. And so 747 00:46:28,152 --> 00:46:31,152 Speaker 3: the only one they couldn't come to a conclusion on 748 00:46:32,072 --> 00:46:33,832 Speaker 3: was the one that had to do with the vehicle. 749 00:46:34,592 --> 00:46:38,232 Speaker 2: So they agreed on the murder charge. Well, the manslaugh 750 00:46:38,232 --> 00:46:38,792 Speaker 2: to of charge. 751 00:46:39,232 --> 00:46:42,911 Speaker 3: Yes, the jury was unanimous in finding read not guilty 752 00:46:42,991 --> 00:46:47,552 Speaker 3: of second degree murder and leaving the scene of personal 753 00:46:47,592 --> 00:46:52,392 Speaker 3: injury and death. They found her unanimously innocent, not guilty 754 00:46:52,551 --> 00:46:56,632 Speaker 3: of these charges on manslaughter and the lesser included charges. 755 00:46:56,951 --> 00:47:00,112 Speaker 3: The juror said the jury's final vote was a quote 756 00:47:00,192 --> 00:47:08,431 Speaker 3: soft nine to three, with nine voting guilty. So this 757 00:47:08,712 --> 00:47:11,551 Speaker 3: is something that the judge is really going to have 758 00:47:11,632 --> 00:47:14,072 Speaker 3: to consider very seriously, and that's why I'm not surprised 759 00:47:14,072 --> 00:47:16,911 Speaker 3: that it's taking her quite a long time to come 760 00:47:16,951 --> 00:47:17,712 Speaker 3: to this decision. 761 00:47:18,632 --> 00:47:19,991 Speaker 2: With all of that in mind, I'm going to ask 762 00:47:20,031 --> 00:47:23,911 Speaker 2: one final question. Do you think the Internet and the 763 00:47:23,951 --> 00:47:27,031 Speaker 2: Free Karen movement, given all of this stuff that's come 764 00:47:27,072 --> 00:47:29,911 Speaker 2: out since the mistrial, do you think this is just 765 00:47:29,911 --> 00:47:30,872 Speaker 2: going to keep exploding? 766 00:47:32,112 --> 00:47:35,192 Speaker 3: I do, and I think that Turtle Boy's going to 767 00:47:35,232 --> 00:47:36,832 Speaker 3: have a lot to do with that. You know, he 768 00:47:37,031 --> 00:47:41,431 Speaker 3: got a lot of fame from this. He says that 769 00:47:41,551 --> 00:47:47,471 Speaker 3: he's received a podcast and movie deal, and the TikTok 770 00:47:47,752 --> 00:47:52,631 Speaker 3: In Couch detectives are still at it with exposing what 771 00:47:52,712 --> 00:47:56,792 Speaker 3: they think are important details that, of course, you can't 772 00:47:57,031 --> 00:48:02,431 Speaker 3: prove in any courtroom. And I think that the Internet 773 00:48:02,511 --> 00:48:05,272 Speaker 3: is a perfect place for a conspiracy theory to grow 774 00:48:05,392 --> 00:48:10,072 Speaker 3: and grow and grow and grow. And if the judge 775 00:48:10,072 --> 00:48:12,712 Speaker 3: comes back and says we're not going to try this 776 00:48:12,832 --> 00:48:17,111 Speaker 3: case again. I think it would die out eventually, but 777 00:48:17,232 --> 00:48:20,712 Speaker 3: if she says no, we're going back to trial, this 778 00:48:20,832 --> 00:48:23,592 Speaker 3: is never going to die. It's going to get even 779 00:48:23,632 --> 00:48:28,232 Speaker 3: more attention because there's a Netflix documentary coming out. You know, 780 00:48:28,312 --> 00:48:31,071 Speaker 3: our podcast is out. Your podcast is going to be 781 00:48:31,072 --> 00:48:34,392 Speaker 3: coming out. Every true crime podcast is talking about this, 782 00:48:34,511 --> 00:48:37,152 Speaker 3: and so there's going to be probably like ten times 783 00:48:37,192 --> 00:48:40,992 Speaker 3: the amount of ears and eyeballs on this then there 784 00:48:41,152 --> 00:48:45,552 Speaker 3: was in the first place. And so, unfortunately, conspiracy theories 785 00:48:45,911 --> 00:48:49,792 Speaker 3: and really interesting cases like this are just bound to 786 00:48:49,832 --> 00:48:53,671 Speaker 3: grow and grow and grow until someone says, Okay, here's 787 00:48:53,712 --> 00:48:54,312 Speaker 3: your closure. 788 00:48:59,511 --> 00:49:02,152 Speaker 2: Thanks to Jessica for assisting us to tell this story. 789 00:49:02,592 --> 00:49:05,631 Speaker 2: True Crime Conversations is Amma Ma a podcast hosted and 790 00:49:05,672 --> 00:49:09,471 Speaker 2: produced by Jemma Bath with audio design by Scott Stronik. 791 00:49:10,031 --> 00:49:13,912 Speaker 2: Our senior producer is Crystal kor Nielssen. Thanks for listening. 792 00:49:13,991 --> 00:49:16,832 Speaker 2: I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation.