WEBVTT - With Her Abuser Behind Bars, Dassi Erlich Is Ready To Talk 0:00:11.582 --> 0:00:16.182 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges 0:00:16.222 --> 0:00:19.702 the traditional owners of land and waders. This podcast was 0:00:19.742 --> 0:00:22.942 recorded on Hey, I'm Jemma Bath, host of True Crime 0:00:22.942 --> 0:00:25.462 Conversations and did you know that the team at Mamma 0:00:25.502 --> 0:00:28.222 Mia is bringing you over one hundred hours of the 0:00:28.222 --> 0:00:31.302 best content from your award winning podcasts for the Hot 0:00:31.342 --> 0:00:35.302 Pod Summer of your Dreams. Well, we are here at 0:00:35.302 --> 0:00:38.422 two Crime Conversations. We've handpicked some of the most chilling 0:00:38.502 --> 0:00:42.742 and thought provoking episodes from our feed, including gripping cult stories, 0:00:42.942 --> 0:00:46.142 powerful interviews with crime victims, and in depth accounts from 0:00:46.142 --> 0:00:49.342 women who have been incarcerated sharing the journeys that led 0:00:49.342 --> 0:00:52.422 them to that place. And that's just the beginning. We 0:00:52.502 --> 0:00:54.942 first brought you this conversation with Dussy Elick at the 0:00:54.942 --> 0:00:57.422 start of the year. You might know her story or 0:00:57.462 --> 0:01:00.542 you might not. Either way, it's truly powerful and worth 0:01:00.662 --> 0:01:04.142 a listen. In twenty twenty three, Malka Leifel was sentenced 0:01:04.142 --> 0:01:07.742 to fifteen years in prison for eighteen counts of sexual 0:01:07.742 --> 0:01:11.582 abuse against Dussy and her little sister. Life was the 0:01:11.582 --> 0:01:14.422 sister's former high school principal, and when whispers of their 0:01:14.462 --> 0:01:17.422 allegations came to light in two thousand and eight, she 0:01:17.542 --> 0:01:20.382 fled from her home in Melbourne to Israel before any 0:01:20.462 --> 0:01:24.382 formal complaint could be made. Dussy is such a strong 0:01:24.422 --> 0:01:27.062 woman and I took so much away from this conversation. 0:01:27.462 --> 0:01:32.222 Take a listen. This episode contains discussions of sexual assault 0:01:32.382 --> 0:01:38.342 and mental health struggles. Please take care while listening. Eighteen 0:01:38.422 --> 0:01:42.742 year old Dassy sat shocked in her colour teacher's house, 0:01:42.982 --> 0:01:46.222 staring at a diagram of a penis and a vagina. 0:01:48.422 --> 0:01:51.102 Now that she was engaged to be married, her mother 0:01:51.142 --> 0:01:54.702 had organized for her to get bridal lessons, where she 0:01:54.782 --> 0:02:00.022 was being educated about sex for the first time. Despite 0:02:00.062 --> 0:02:02.782 living in the inner city suburbs of Melbourne in two 0:02:02.862 --> 0:02:07.382 thousand and five, Dusty lived within the strict and isolated 0:02:07.422 --> 0:02:11.822 confines of the ultra orthodox Adas Jewish community with her 0:02:11.862 --> 0:02:17.302 six siblings and her parents. They had no TV, no Internet, 0:02:17.862 --> 0:02:21.822 and no access to information from secular society, despite it 0:02:21.942 --> 0:02:28.542 operating near meters away from them. The idea that she 0:02:28.622 --> 0:02:34.302 even had a vagina was absolutely blowing Dussy's mind. She'd 0:02:34.382 --> 0:02:37.142 never been taught the correct terms of her anatomy, let 0:02:37.182 --> 0:02:40.142 alone what it looked like down there. But as she 0:02:40.222 --> 0:02:44.182 listened intently to the lesson, something started to click into place. 0:02:45.622 --> 0:02:48.542 Is this what missus Lifeer meant when she said she 0:02:48.662 --> 0:02:53.582 was preparing her for marriage. For years, her high school 0:02:53.622 --> 0:02:58.142 principle had been touching her, But in Dussi's world, there 0:02:58.182 --> 0:03:01.862 was no language around sexual abuse. She just knew what 0:03:01.942 --> 0:03:06.742 was wrong. Since the age of sixteen, she'd learned to 0:03:06.902 --> 0:03:11.262 numb her mind. Disassociation was her biggert to protect her 0:03:11.302 --> 0:03:14.982 from the fear and pain. A trance like state would 0:03:15.062 --> 0:03:20.262 keep her subconscious traveling far away from her reality. Darcy 0:03:20.382 --> 0:03:23.782 had hoped marriage would be an escape not just from 0:03:23.822 --> 0:03:28.542 her principle but her troubled home life. But what she 0:03:28.582 --> 0:03:31.662 didn't realize as she sat at the dining room table 0:03:31.702 --> 0:03:35.502 of her color teacher, praying for a new beginning, was 0:03:35.502 --> 0:03:38.782 that this was just the start of another troubling chapter, 0:03:40.222 --> 0:03:43.062 one where she'd eventually tell the world about the abuse 0:03:43.222 --> 0:03:48.022 she suffered and then spend the next fifteen years fighting 0:03:48.342 --> 0:03:59.902 for justice. I'm Jemma Bath and This is True Crime 0:03:59.982 --> 0:04:05.022 Conversations Amma mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes 0:04:05.622 --> 0:04:08.902 by speaking to the people who know the most about them. 0:04:09.542 --> 0:04:13.502 In three Mark Leifer was sentenced to fifteen years in 0:04:13.502 --> 0:04:17.542 prison for eighteen counts of sexual abuse against Dussi and 0:04:17.622 --> 0:04:21.462 her little sister, Ellie. She was acquitted of nine charges, 0:04:21.982 --> 0:04:26.822 including five relating to their older sister, Nicole. Lifa was 0:04:26.822 --> 0:04:30.382 the sister's former high school principal, and when whispers of 0:04:30.422 --> 0:04:32.822 their allegations came to light in two thousand and eight, 0:04:33.422 --> 0:04:36.742 she fled from her home in Melbourne to Israel before 0:04:36.822 --> 0:04:42.582 any formal complaint could be made. It took seventy extraditioned 0:04:42.582 --> 0:04:46.302 hearings and thirteen years to bring her back to Australia, 0:04:47.182 --> 0:04:51.502 and finally last year, Dussy and her sisters were able 0:04:51.542 --> 0:04:55.462 to breathe a sigh of relief. She was finally going 0:04:55.502 --> 0:05:01.302 to pay for what she'd done. But Lifa wasn't the 0:05:01.342 --> 0:05:06.022 only evil in their lives. School had previously been their 0:05:06.062 --> 0:05:09.462 safe haven from the abuses they were experiencing at home, 0:05:10.542 --> 0:05:14.022 Dussy shares in her new memoir in Bad Faith. In 0:05:14.102 --> 0:05:16.702 their house, it was normal to go to bed hungry, 0:05:17.302 --> 0:05:20.662 to be hit or slapped for minor wrongdoing, and to 0:05:20.662 --> 0:05:24.662 have beloved toys stabbed and smashed in front of their eyes. 0:05:25.862 --> 0:05:29.582 It was a childhood laced in fear and sadness, and 0:05:29.622 --> 0:05:33.182 with Lifer finally behind bars, Dussie wants to share it 0:05:33.222 --> 0:05:38.102 all because amongst the horrors she experienced, there have been 0:05:38.222 --> 0:05:43.062 valuable life lessons since leaving her ultra orthodox community and 0:05:43.102 --> 0:05:46.622 carving out a new free life for herself. So now 0:05:46.702 --> 0:05:50.262 thirty six year old is ready to talk, Dussi Earlick 0:05:50.582 --> 0:05:57.422 joins us. Now, Dussy, I want to start with your parents. 0:05:58.422 --> 0:06:01.422 Tell me about the different worlds that they came from 0:06:01.462 --> 0:06:02.822 and how they kind of got together. 0:06:03.342 --> 0:06:06.142 So my mother grew up in Israel, and she grew 0:06:06.222 --> 0:06:08.062 up until she was about ten years old and moved 0:06:08.062 --> 0:06:11.182 to England in quite a traditional home with her father 0:06:11.302 --> 0:06:14.622 learning to become a rabbi. And my father grew up 0:06:14.862 --> 0:06:21.582 seven generation English in a very liberal, almost very culturally religious, 0:06:21.822 --> 0:06:24.542 but not in any way that affected day to day life. 0:06:25.062 --> 0:06:28.022 When they got together and started having you guys, because 0:06:28.022 --> 0:06:31.382 there's seven siblings, they did kind of go down the 0:06:31.422 --> 0:06:35.022 path of having a very religious way that they raised. 0:06:35.062 --> 0:06:37.662 You tell us a bit about that, because would we 0:06:37.702 --> 0:06:40.542 describe it as an orthodox Jewish lifestyle? 0:06:40.782 --> 0:06:44.422 Oh? Absolutely. My parents sort of moved into their dust 0:06:44.502 --> 0:06:47.462 community when I was very young, around two or three 0:06:47.542 --> 0:06:50.182 years old. So by the time I have my first memories, 0:06:50.262 --> 0:06:53.182 we were part of the Dust community, an ultra Orthodox, 0:06:54.182 --> 0:06:59.542 very exclusive and insular lifestyle that basically we had rules 0:06:59.582 --> 0:07:02.862 from morning to evening about how we lived our lives. 0:07:03.142 --> 0:07:05.182 Can you give us some examples. You've said that there 0:07:05.222 --> 0:07:08.102 was rules around everything. I know that there will be 0:07:08.142 --> 0:07:10.302 a lot of non Jewish listeners, so even things like 0:07:10.942 --> 0:07:13.302 Shabbat and kosher and stuff like that is kind of 0:07:13.382 --> 0:07:17.742 alien to them. But in the ultra Orthodox community, those 0:07:17.782 --> 0:07:20.902 traditions are taking one step further, aren't they. It's very strict. 0:07:21.102 --> 0:07:23.582 Well, I think it's more not just about the rules, 0:07:23.822 --> 0:07:26.102 but about how you do the rules. And we would 0:07:26.102 --> 0:07:29.142 spend hours in school learning you know, how do we 0:07:29.142 --> 0:07:31.422 get out of bed, what foot do we put out first? 0:07:31.422 --> 0:07:33.582 How do we wash our hands as soon as we 0:07:33.622 --> 0:07:35.942 get out of bed? You know how many times should 0:07:35.982 --> 0:07:38.862 we wash our hands and what hands should we wash first? 0:07:38.862 --> 0:07:41.982 So it went down to the most minutest details. 0:07:42.222 --> 0:07:46.422 Wow, what about food? How is food treated in your 0:07:46.462 --> 0:07:48.942 home in terms of what was kosher and what was not. 0:07:49.342 --> 0:07:52.982 Food was governed by the Kosher religious authority in Melbourne, 0:07:53.062 --> 0:07:55.022 so we were allowed to have any food and there's 0:07:55.022 --> 0:07:56.702 a little book that would tell us what food we 0:07:56.702 --> 0:07:59.382 were allowed to buy from supermarkets. There were a couple 0:07:59.462 --> 0:08:01.822 of kosher Jewish shops that we would buy food from, 0:08:01.942 --> 0:08:03.942 but we were quite limited in our diet. 0:08:03.902 --> 0:08:08.502 So you were still going to coals and places around you. 0:08:08.502 --> 0:08:12.342 You just were only shopping in certain niles, only. 0:08:12.102 --> 0:08:15.182 Shopping for the things that we knew were allowed in 0:08:15.222 --> 0:08:18.062 the Kosher Authority little book that we had. Now, if 0:08:18.102 --> 0:08:19.742 you go to Coal's, actually you can see like a 0:08:19.782 --> 0:08:22.622 little k with a circle around on little things in 0:08:22.662 --> 0:08:25.222 the Supermark aisles, and you know that that's kosher. But 0:08:25.262 --> 0:08:27.062 we didn't have that back then, so we would refer 0:08:27.142 --> 0:08:29.302 to this little book and you'll tell us we can 0:08:29.342 --> 0:08:32.302 buy this particular brand of corn fins, and that's what 0:08:32.382 --> 0:08:32.982 we would buy. 0:08:34.022 --> 0:08:36.582 I think what I find fascinating about the Adusk community 0:08:36.622 --> 0:08:39.462 is that they are operating in such close proximity to 0:08:39.982 --> 0:08:42.662 the rest of society around them. But it's such an 0:08:42.662 --> 0:08:46.022 isolated world. But it's not like your streets and streets away, 0:08:46.062 --> 0:08:48.862 your next door to people in Melbourne living a completely 0:08:48.862 --> 0:08:49.702 different life. 0:08:49.862 --> 0:08:52.262 As a young child, you know, I would see that 0:08:52.382 --> 0:08:54.942 life around me, but it was so separate from me. 0:08:54.982 --> 0:08:57.382 I didn't even think about that life. And of course, 0:08:57.422 --> 0:08:59.822 as I got older and I started to notice more 0:08:59.862 --> 0:09:02.742 how people around me are living, it was a question 0:09:02.822 --> 0:09:06.222 of curiosity, but almost you know, we're more special. We 0:09:06.262 --> 0:09:08.462 live a certain way of life, and you know, don't 0:09:08.462 --> 0:09:10.302 even think about that way of life because it could 0:09:10.462 --> 0:09:13.062 influence you and tear you away from this life of truth. 0:09:13.502 --> 0:09:15.902 So you weren't yearning for what you saw in the 0:09:15.942 --> 0:09:18.342 backyards of other kids' homes. 0:09:18.782 --> 0:09:21.342 Not really. I think as a teenager walking down the 0:09:21.342 --> 0:09:24.702 street in really thick tights and long skirts in the summer, 0:09:24.862 --> 0:09:27.062 there would be a curiosity about what it would be 0:09:27.262 --> 0:09:30.262 like to have the sun actually touched my skin in 0:09:30.302 --> 0:09:33.182 some way. But I always had this sense that I 0:09:33.302 --> 0:09:37.342 was more special, or my modesty was something that made 0:09:37.342 --> 0:09:38.262 me more special. 0:09:39.182 --> 0:09:41.142 I want to delve a bit more into your family. 0:09:41.382 --> 0:09:45.382 We mentioned that there's seven siblings at the time when 0:09:45.422 --> 0:09:48.182 you were becoming a young teenager who was living in 0:09:48.222 --> 0:09:48.862 the house with you. 0:09:49.502 --> 0:09:52.662 So I had my two sisters, Nicole and Ellie, and 0:09:52.782 --> 0:09:54.582 my brothers Isaac and Ben. 0:09:55.102 --> 0:09:58.822 And when you think back on your childhood and living 0:09:58.862 --> 0:10:01.422 with your siblings and your parents, how does it make 0:10:01.462 --> 0:10:01.902 you feel. 0:10:03.662 --> 0:10:06.862 I try not to think about my childhood that much. 0:10:07.222 --> 0:10:10.782 It brings up a lot of really difficult memories. And 0:10:11.942 --> 0:10:15.022 all I remember is this all encompassing fear that I 0:10:15.102 --> 0:10:17.102 used to feel as a child, and the feeling of 0:10:17.222 --> 0:10:20.462 never ever feeling safe. I mean, love was such a 0:10:20.502 --> 0:10:22.742 foreign concept to me. That wasn't It was just about 0:10:23.182 --> 0:10:24.982 getting through the day and surviving. 0:10:25.902 --> 0:10:28.302 I know that every day is obviously different, but what 0:10:28.582 --> 0:10:30.822 did an average day look like for you as a kid, 0:10:30.942 --> 0:10:34.222 because you had daily chores and school around all of that. 0:10:34.262 --> 0:10:37.022 But what kind of rules were in place that your 0:10:37.062 --> 0:10:38.822 parents kind of made you abide by? 0:10:39.622 --> 0:10:41.982 Really, I was working from the minute I woke up, 0:10:42.022 --> 0:10:44.542 and I would wake up very early and complete all 0:10:44.542 --> 0:10:46.342 the chores that I had to complete in order to 0:10:46.382 --> 0:10:48.262 get to school. I would go to school and have 0:10:48.342 --> 0:10:50.862 our Jewish studies and English studies, and I'd come home 0:10:50.942 --> 0:10:53.062 and see another whole list of chores that I needed 0:10:53.062 --> 0:10:56.422 to do until very late at the night. And all 0:10:56.462 --> 0:10:59.502 the time there was this fear that my mother would 0:10:59.502 --> 0:11:02.582 be incredibly angry or she would blow up in some way, 0:11:02.622 --> 0:11:06.142 And there was this constant tension that was felt all 0:11:06.182 --> 0:11:06.622 the time. 0:11:07.142 --> 0:11:09.582 What kinds of things would she get angry about? 0:11:10.262 --> 0:11:15.022 No rhyme or reason for any of her anger outputs, 0:11:15.102 --> 0:11:18.342 at least what we felt as children, because one day 0:11:18.382 --> 0:11:20.142 something would be fine, and then the next day that 0:11:20.182 --> 0:11:22.622 would be something that was terribly wrong. So it was 0:11:22.742 --> 0:11:25.542 very hard to understand what I was doing wrong. And 0:11:25.582 --> 0:11:27.982 I always thought that I was a good child, or 0:11:28.022 --> 0:11:29.742 I tried to be a good child. I felt like 0:11:29.782 --> 0:11:32.622 I was an incredibly bad child because I was constantly 0:11:32.662 --> 0:11:34.102 being told off and beaten. 0:11:34.862 --> 0:11:37.862 Was it for things like not completing a chore to 0:11:38.142 --> 0:11:42.222 standards like were you just doing things like laundry and cooking? 0:11:42.382 --> 0:11:45.382 And she just wasn't happy with how you delivered those chores. 0:11:45.742 --> 0:11:47.662 It was if I didn't do it fast enough, I 0:11:47.662 --> 0:11:50.302 didn't do it well enough, or I spoke to her 0:11:50.342 --> 0:11:53.662 with the wrong tone. And I would modulate in my 0:11:53.742 --> 0:11:56.662 tone so that I was as submissive as possible, but 0:11:56.742 --> 0:11:59.422 still somehow that was seen as disrespectful. So it was 0:11:59.502 --> 0:12:02.462 nothing that I could really understand that I was doing. 0:12:03.262 --> 0:12:07.182 And what were the punishments if she was angry at you? 0:12:08.022 --> 0:12:11.822 The punishments often involve physical abuse. There was a lot 0:12:11.862 --> 0:12:16.022 of verbal abuse and being told that I'm worthless or nothing, 0:12:16.302 --> 0:12:18.702 or I don't deserve to live. There was a lot 0:12:18.702 --> 0:12:22.942 of food withdrawal, and there were many times that my 0:12:23.022 --> 0:12:26.462 mother would try and pit my siblings against me so 0:12:26.542 --> 0:12:29.262 that they would join in with her abuse. And of 0:12:29.302 --> 0:12:31.622 course at times my siblings had to do that, and 0:12:31.622 --> 0:12:33.782 they were forced to do that, but as we got older, 0:12:33.822 --> 0:12:36.542 we learned to apologize to each other after that. 0:12:37.142 --> 0:12:39.182 I want to focus a bit more on the food withdrawal, 0:12:39.342 --> 0:12:43.622 because obviously food is essential for life, and it's such 0:12:43.662 --> 0:12:48.782 a unique punishment. How did it manifest for you? Where 0:12:48.822 --> 0:12:50.822 did you get food? Because you would deny dinner a 0:12:50.862 --> 0:12:51.782 lot of the time, weren't you. 0:12:52.582 --> 0:12:55.382 I just remember being starving all of my childhood, and 0:12:55.422 --> 0:12:57.582 I think when I speak to my siblings, they say 0:12:57.622 --> 0:13:01.422 they remember that, this constant sense of never feeling full 0:13:01.582 --> 0:13:05.062 and always being hungry, and never certain that your next 0:13:05.142 --> 0:13:06.102 meal was guaranteed. 0:13:06.782 --> 0:13:10.422 And there were times where you were denied the toilet even. 0:13:10.542 --> 0:13:13.022 I write about this in the book about when we 0:13:13.022 --> 0:13:15.662 were young children and we weren't allowed to come downstairs 0:13:15.662 --> 0:13:17.422 once we had been sent to bed, and there was 0:13:17.462 --> 0:13:21.422 no toilet upstairs. And this was a constant issue for 0:13:21.542 --> 0:13:23.822 us because a lot of times we would drink to 0:13:24.182 --> 0:13:28.062 quell that hole in our stomach and not being able 0:13:28.062 --> 0:13:30.542 to go to the bathroom was incredibly difficult. 0:13:31.302 --> 0:13:34.022 When you look back at that in particular as an adult, 0:13:34.662 --> 0:13:36.542 are you shocked at some of the stuff that you 0:13:36.582 --> 0:13:39.702 and your siblings endured and survived. 0:13:40.382 --> 0:13:43.902 Absolutely. I think having my own child and realizing the 0:13:43.982 --> 0:13:47.142 love and the desperate need to protect her, I couldn't 0:13:47.702 --> 0:13:53.022 imagine going to that extent to hurt someone so vulnerable. 0:13:53.622 --> 0:13:57.302 You write as well in a few instances about your 0:13:57.302 --> 0:14:00.902 siblings or members of your family being banished, being banished 0:14:00.902 --> 0:14:03.502 from the house, or the community or the religion. Was 0:14:03.502 --> 0:14:07.062 that a threat that was always hanging above you? And 0:14:07.102 --> 0:14:09.942 when did it happen in certain instances. 0:14:09.902 --> 0:14:13.062 Again, there's no real reason why it happened, but my 0:14:13.102 --> 0:14:15.662 mother would choose one of us. And my memories are 0:14:15.662 --> 0:14:18.422 more around my younger brothers because a lot of times 0:14:18.422 --> 0:14:22.262 I disassociated from when that happened to me. But at 0:14:22.262 --> 0:14:24.462 some point my mother would just decide that there was 0:14:24.502 --> 0:14:26.782 one child that didn't deserve to be a part of 0:14:26.822 --> 0:14:30.102 the family anymore, and they were banished to some place where, 0:14:30.542 --> 0:14:32.942 you know, we had a knowledge of this small you 0:14:32.942 --> 0:14:35.862 know this four to eight streets around our community, and 0:14:35.862 --> 0:14:37.982 they would be taken outside of our community, and to 0:14:38.102 --> 0:14:41.942 us that was the absolute biggest threat, that this person 0:14:42.102 --> 0:14:43.822 was not just going to be a part of our family, 0:14:43.942 --> 0:14:47.742 but no longer a part of our faith than our community. 0:14:48.102 --> 0:14:51.942 So they were dropped somewhere and then eventually what picked 0:14:52.022 --> 0:14:55.422 up or just left there for hours, days. 0:14:55.622 --> 0:14:59.502 Definitely hours. My memory is a little bit vague, but 0:14:59.742 --> 0:15:03.422 I do remember when my younger brother be sent off 0:15:03.422 --> 0:15:06.102 to a park or something outside of the community. I 0:15:06.102 --> 0:15:09.022 would sit there and beg my mother to allow my 0:15:09.102 --> 0:15:11.222 father to go and pick him up, and it would 0:15:11.222 --> 0:15:13.102 be hours and hours of worrying about him. 0:15:14.182 --> 0:15:16.982 Are there any happy memories from your childhood. 0:15:18.342 --> 0:15:22.382 That's a very difficult one to answer, unfortunately. Also, that's 0:15:22.422 --> 0:15:26.622 not how trauma works that you do remember. You know, 0:15:26.662 --> 0:15:30.222 you end up remembering the most traumatic memories. But there 0:15:30.222 --> 0:15:33.582 were times that we went away on day trips or holidays. 0:15:33.662 --> 0:15:37.622 But again, that all pervasive fear was always underlying everything 0:15:37.702 --> 0:15:40.702 that we did. And I think the sense of happiness, 0:15:40.822 --> 0:15:43.222 especially as a teenager, came from when my siblings and 0:15:43.262 --> 0:15:46.022 I would ban together almost in the sense of rebellion 0:15:46.502 --> 0:15:47.622 and support one another. 0:15:48.382 --> 0:15:50.942 This might be a heavy question, but do you remember 0:15:52.222 --> 0:15:55.942 how old you were, or when you first started thinking 0:15:55.982 --> 0:15:56.662 about death. 0:15:58.342 --> 0:16:01.262 I was very young when I was thinking about death. 0:16:03.302 --> 0:16:07.702 I was incredibly young. I couldn't imagine any other way 0:16:07.742 --> 0:16:11.382 of getting out of the amount of pain and and 0:16:11.422 --> 0:16:13.102 fear that I was living every day. 0:16:14.182 --> 0:16:17.022 We've spoken about your mum, but you do write in 0:16:17.022 --> 0:16:21.142 your memoir about feeling unsafe with your dad and not understanding. 0:16:21.182 --> 0:16:24.902 Why can you tell me about when that started? If 0:16:24.942 --> 0:16:25.782 you feel comfortable. 0:16:26.862 --> 0:16:29.182 That's still something I'm really working on. A lot of 0:16:29.222 --> 0:16:32.542 those memories only came back after my father passed away 0:16:32.582 --> 0:16:37.102 in twenty nineteen, so that's still something that I'm still 0:16:37.142 --> 0:16:37.782 working through. 0:16:38.982 --> 0:16:42.702 I want to talk about by mitzvah for our non 0:16:42.822 --> 0:16:45.902 Jewish listeners. Can you explain firstly what that is and 0:16:45.942 --> 0:16:48.982 what it was for your community when you were younger. 0:16:49.942 --> 0:16:53.062 So abut mitzvah as a girl is when you turn twelve, 0:16:53.062 --> 0:16:57.942 when you've become responsible for your own sins. Pretty much so, 0:16:58.062 --> 0:17:01.342 before twelve, you're considered in a way a pure soul, 0:17:01.382 --> 0:17:04.822 and your parents are responsible for your sins, and when 0:17:04.862 --> 0:17:08.182 you turn twelve, you are the responsible one, and anything 0:17:08.222 --> 0:17:10.982 that you do against God that's on you, no longer 0:17:11.022 --> 0:17:11.702 on your parents. 0:17:12.422 --> 0:17:16.382 And in the adusk community. Were there certain things that 0:17:16.422 --> 0:17:19.462 you were now allowed to do or not do once 0:17:19.542 --> 0:17:21.222 you became of age, so. 0:17:21.222 --> 0:17:23.942 To speak, or as a girl in the dust community, 0:17:24.022 --> 0:17:28.582 my life became more limited as I turned twelve. I 0:17:28.622 --> 0:17:31.102 wasn't allowed to sing anymore in the presence of a man. 0:17:31.182 --> 0:17:34.582 I wasn't allowed to ride a bike anymore because that 0:17:34.662 --> 0:17:38.102 wasn't modest. There were certain rules that came into place 0:17:38.302 --> 0:17:40.622 when I was seen as the age of maturity, which 0:17:40.662 --> 0:17:43.422 is twelve years old. That meant that I could no 0:17:43.542 --> 0:17:47.822 longer engage in certain practices because it wouldn't be modest anymore. 0:17:48.822 --> 0:17:51.062 So is it a milestone that you, as a child 0:17:51.102 --> 0:17:54.262 look forward to or you're not looking forward to it 0:17:54.262 --> 0:17:56.302 because you're going to have all these freedoms kind of 0:17:56.342 --> 0:17:57.102 taken away from you. 0:17:57.902 --> 0:18:00.262 I didn't see them as freedoms being taken away in 0:18:00.302 --> 0:18:02.542 a way. I saw it, I'm growing older, so I'm 0:18:02.582 --> 0:18:04.302 not allowed to sing in front of men because that 0:18:04.782 --> 0:18:08.062 my voice is more special. There was that, but for 0:18:08.182 --> 0:18:11.022 me personally, it was a terrifying time because I felt 0:18:11.062 --> 0:18:13.782 I was this terrible girl and suddenly I was going 0:18:13.862 --> 0:18:15.822 to be responsible for all of these sins and my 0:18:15.902 --> 0:18:19.142 soul is going to turn black. I was utterly terrified. 0:18:20.862 --> 0:18:24.382 There's something that happens to young girls when they're around twelve, thirteen, fourteen, 0:18:25.022 --> 0:18:27.902 they start getting their period. Were you taught about that 0:18:28.502 --> 0:18:29.422 around that time? 0:18:29.702 --> 0:18:31.862 Around that time is the first time that I heard 0:18:31.902 --> 0:18:35.062 about it. And I was told it was because of 0:18:35.102 --> 0:18:37.742 the sin of women that I would be bleeding once 0:18:37.782 --> 0:18:39.702 a month, and that was pretty much all that I 0:18:39.742 --> 0:18:42.342 was told about it. And I remember going to my 0:18:42.422 --> 0:18:45.302 older sister Nicole and just saying to her, you know 0:18:45.382 --> 0:18:47.182 what happens. What are you supposed to do? And she 0:18:47.222 --> 0:18:49.222 showed me what a pad was, and she said, you know, 0:18:49.302 --> 0:18:51.102 this is what you have to do, and you know 0:18:51.182 --> 0:18:53.022 when you need them, you need to ask a father 0:18:53.142 --> 0:18:54.822 to go and get them from a supermarket. But I 0:18:54.982 --> 0:18:57.182 just very quietly tell him that this is something that's 0:18:57.302 --> 0:19:01.302 very embarrassing. And it was something that was very very secretive. 0:19:01.942 --> 0:19:04.382 What about I mean, I know when I was thirteen, 0:19:04.422 --> 0:19:06.302 it kind of was all rolled into one. It was 0:19:06.662 --> 0:19:09.902 menstruation talking about that, it was puberty, and it was 0:19:09.942 --> 0:19:13.742 also a very basic but sex education. Were you given 0:19:13.782 --> 0:19:16.062 that when you were a teenager or when you were 0:19:16.062 --> 0:19:17.102 turning into a young woman? 0:19:17.662 --> 0:19:20.102 Oh? Absolutely, not. That was all that I was told 0:19:20.102 --> 0:19:23.142 about periods, and I think that was my education until 0:19:23.262 --> 0:19:27.382 just before I got married and met my now ex husband. 0:19:28.622 --> 0:19:31.622 You and your siblings went to a dust Israel school. 0:19:31.822 --> 0:19:35.822 It was within your community. What was the school like? 0:19:35.942 --> 0:19:37.542 Did you like going to school and what did you 0:19:37.622 --> 0:19:38.062 learn there? 0:19:39.702 --> 0:19:42.542 As a young Chrial, school was my safe place, and 0:19:42.582 --> 0:19:44.782 I loved going to school. It was a chance to 0:19:44.822 --> 0:19:47.902 get out of home and to learn, and I loved learning. 0:19:48.462 --> 0:19:51.142 We spent a majority of our day learning Jewish studies 0:19:51.222 --> 0:19:53.502 and learning how to perform all the things that we 0:19:53.502 --> 0:19:56.782 were expected to perform, and how to support the men 0:19:57.022 --> 0:19:59.222 in what they had to perform, and what our role 0:19:59.382 --> 0:20:02.502 was as a Jewish woman. And then we had some 0:20:02.582 --> 0:20:05.302 classes in English and math and other topics, but we 0:20:05.382 --> 0:20:09.062 had absolutely no regard for those topics. We did not 0:20:09.142 --> 0:20:12.622 respect the teachers. Now, looking back at that, I feel 0:20:12.662 --> 0:20:15.582 incredibly bad for the way that we used to treat 0:20:15.582 --> 0:20:17.382 the teachers that would come in and to teach us 0:20:17.422 --> 0:20:19.622 English and maths, because we would play up and we 0:20:19.742 --> 0:20:21.902 just had no respect for them whatsoever. I mean, we 0:20:21.902 --> 0:20:24.022 didn't see the point of them. Why did we need 0:20:24.062 --> 0:20:26.382 to learn English and maths when our job as a 0:20:26.422 --> 0:20:28.662 Jewish woman was to grow up, get married and have children, 0:20:28.662 --> 0:20:30.062 and it didn't make sense to us. 0:20:30.582 --> 0:20:35.102 So did you have you know, science, art, drama, any 0:20:35.142 --> 0:20:37.422 of those kinds of subjects that you would see in 0:20:37.622 --> 0:20:38.622 other Melbourne schools. 0:20:39.582 --> 0:20:42.062 We did have science, and we did have art, but 0:20:42.142 --> 0:20:45.422 again in art, you know, we were preparing stuff for 0:20:45.462 --> 0:20:47.942 the Jewish holidays, or you know, in science we had 0:20:47.942 --> 0:20:51.542 a quite limited curriculum because a lot of things we 0:20:51.542 --> 0:20:52.342 weren't allowed to know. 0:20:53.942 --> 0:20:57.382 I want to start talking about Mark Laifer. When do 0:20:57.502 --> 0:20:59.782 you remember her starting at the school and for what 0:20:59.942 --> 0:21:02.222 reason did she become principal. 0:21:03.542 --> 0:21:07.182 I recall her coming to Australia to be the head 0:21:07.382 --> 0:21:09.582 of the seminary, the girls seminary, which is what we 0:21:09.662 --> 0:21:13.342 call a year eleven twelve, and very quickly she became 0:21:13.622 --> 0:21:17.502 known in the community as this brilliant woman who could 0:21:17.582 --> 0:21:21.222 just do everything and had a lot of charisma and 0:21:21.302 --> 0:21:25.262 people were just drawn towards and shortly after she came, 0:21:25.382 --> 0:21:27.062 I think it was a year or two, she became 0:21:27.102 --> 0:21:31.422 the principal of the entire girls school. And I remember 0:21:31.502 --> 0:21:33.502 looking up at her and thinking that she isn't this 0:21:33.582 --> 0:21:36.622 amazing woman who seemed to just have this way of 0:21:36.662 --> 0:21:40.382 just dealing with everyone around her that everyone respected and adored, 0:21:40.742 --> 0:21:44.902 and having grown up in a community where males were 0:21:44.942 --> 0:21:47.942 always our leaders, to have a woman almost in that 0:21:47.982 --> 0:21:51.582