Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges
Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waders. This podcast was
Speaker 1: recorded on Hey, I'm Jemma Bath, host of True Crime
Speaker 1: Conversations and did you know that the team at Mamma
Speaker 1: Mia is bringing you over one hundred hours of the
Speaker 1: best content from your award winning podcasts for the Hot
Speaker 1: Pod Summer of your Dreams. Well, we are here at
Speaker 1: two Crime Conversations. We've handpicked some of the most chilling
Speaker 1: and thought provoking episodes from our feed, including gripping cult stories,
Speaker 1: powerful interviews with crime victims, and in depth accounts from
Speaker 1: women who have been incarcerated sharing the journeys that led
Speaker 1: them to that place. And that's just the beginning. We
Speaker 1: first brought you this conversation with Dussy Elick at the
Speaker 1: start of the year. You might know her story or
Speaker 1: you might not. Either way, it's truly powerful and worth
Speaker 1: a listen. In twenty twenty three, Malka Leifel was sentenced
Speaker 1: to fifteen years in prison for eighteen counts of sexual
Speaker 1: abuse against Dussy and her little sister. Life was the
Speaker 1: sister's former high school principal, and when whispers of their
Speaker 1: allegations came to light in two thousand and eight, she
Speaker 1: fled from her home in Melbourne to Israel before any
Speaker 1: formal complaint could be made. Dussy is such a strong
Speaker 1: woman and I took so much away from this conversation.
Speaker 1: Take a listen. This episode contains discussions of sexual assault
Speaker 1: and mental health struggles. Please take care while listening. Eighteen
Speaker 1: year old Dassy sat shocked in her colour teacher's house,
Speaker 1: staring at a diagram of a penis and a vagina.
Speaker 1: Now that she was engaged to be married, her mother
Speaker 1: had organized for her to get bridal lessons, where she
Speaker 1: was being educated about sex for the first time. Despite
Speaker 1: living in the inner city suburbs of Melbourne in two
Speaker 1: thousand and five, Dusty lived within the strict and isolated
Speaker 1: confines of the ultra orthodox Adas Jewish community with her
Speaker 1: six siblings and her parents. They had no TV, no Internet,
Speaker 1: and no access to information from secular society, despite it
Speaker 1: operating near meters away from them. The idea that she
Speaker 1: even had a vagina was absolutely blowing Dussy's mind. She'd
Speaker 1: never been taught the correct terms of her anatomy, let
Speaker 1: alone what it looked like down there. But as she
Speaker 1: listened intently to the lesson, something started to click into place.
Speaker 1: Is this what missus Lifeer meant when she said she
Speaker 1: was preparing her for marriage. For years, her high school
Speaker 1: principle had been touching her, But in Dussi's world, there
Speaker 1: was no language around sexual abuse. She just knew what
Speaker 1: was wrong. Since the age of sixteen, she'd learned to
Speaker 1: numb her mind. Disassociation was her biggert to protect her
Speaker 1: from the fear and pain. A trance like state would
Speaker 1: keep her subconscious traveling far away from her reality. Darcy
Speaker 1: had hoped marriage would be an escape not just from
Speaker 1: her principle but her troubled home life. But what she
Speaker 1: didn't realize as she sat at the dining room table
Speaker 1: of her color teacher, praying for a new beginning, was
Speaker 1: that this was just the start of another troubling chapter,
Speaker 1: one where she'd eventually tell the world about the abuse
Speaker 1: she suffered and then spend the next fifteen years fighting
Speaker 1: for justice. I'm Jemma Bath and This is True Crime
Speaker 1: Conversations Amma mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes
Speaker 1: by speaking to the people who know the most about them.
Speaker 1: In three Mark Leifer was sentenced to fifteen years in
Speaker 1: prison for eighteen counts of sexual abuse against Dussi and
Speaker 1: her little sister, Ellie. She was acquitted of nine charges,
Speaker 1: including five relating to their older sister, Nicole. Lifa was
Speaker 1: the sister's former high school principal, and when whispers of
Speaker 1: their allegations came to light in two thousand and eight,
Speaker 1: she fled from her home in Melbourne to Israel before
Speaker 1: any formal complaint could be made. It took seventy extraditioned
Speaker 1: hearings and thirteen years to bring her back to Australia,
Speaker 1: and finally last year, Dussy and her sisters were able
Speaker 1: to breathe a sigh of relief. She was finally going
Speaker 1: to pay for what she'd done. But Lifa wasn't the
Speaker 1: only evil in their lives. School had previously been their
Speaker 1: safe haven from the abuses they were experiencing at home,
Speaker 1: Dussy shares in her new memoir in Bad Faith. In
Speaker 1: their house, it was normal to go to bed hungry,
Speaker 1: to be hit or slapped for minor wrongdoing, and to
Speaker 1: have beloved toys stabbed and smashed in front of their eyes.
Speaker 1: It was a childhood laced in fear and sadness, and
Speaker 1: with Lifer finally behind bars, Dussie wants to share it
Speaker 1: all because amongst the horrors she experienced, there have been
Speaker 1: valuable life lessons since leaving her ultra orthodox community and
Speaker 1: carving out a new free life for herself. So now
Speaker 1: thirty six year old is ready to talk, Dussi Earlick
Speaker 1: joins us. Now, Dussy, I want to start with your parents.
Speaker 1: Tell me about the different worlds that they came from
Speaker 1: and how they kind of got together.
Speaker 2: So my mother grew up in Israel, and she grew
Speaker 2: up until she was about ten years old and moved
Speaker 2: to England in quite a traditional home with her father
Speaker 2: learning to become a rabbi. And my father grew up
Speaker 2: seven generation English in a very liberal, almost very culturally religious,
Speaker 2: but not in any way that affected day to day life.
Speaker 1: When they got together and started having you guys, because
Speaker 1: there's seven siblings, they did kind of go down the
Speaker 1: path of having a very religious way that they raised.
Speaker 1: You tell us a bit about that, because would we
Speaker 1: describe it as an orthodox Jewish lifestyle?
Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely. My parents sort of moved into their dust
Speaker 2: community when I was very young, around two or three
Speaker 2: years old. So by the time I have my first memories,
Speaker 2: we were part of the Dust community, an ultra Orthodox,
Speaker 2: very exclusive and insular lifestyle that basically we had rules
Speaker 2: from morning to evening about how we lived our lives.
Speaker 1: Can you give us some examples. You've said that there
Speaker 1: was rules around everything. I know that there will be
Speaker 1: a lot of non Jewish listeners, so even things like
Speaker 1: Shabbat and kosher and stuff like that is kind of
Speaker 1: alien to them. But in the ultra Orthodox community, those
Speaker 1: traditions are taking one step further, aren't they. It's very strict.
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's more not just about the rules,
Speaker 2: but about how you do the rules. And we would
Speaker 2: spend hours in school learning you know, how do we
Speaker 2: get out of bed, what foot do we put out first?
Speaker 2: How do we wash our hands as soon as we
Speaker 2: get out of bed? You know how many times should
Speaker 2: we wash our hands and what hands should we wash first?
Speaker 2: So it went down to the most minutest details.
Speaker 1: Wow, what about food? How is food treated in your
Speaker 1: home in terms of what was kosher and what was not.
Speaker 2: Food was governed by the Kosher religious authority in Melbourne,
Speaker 2: so we were allowed to have any food and there's
Speaker 2: a little book that would tell us what food we
Speaker 2: were allowed to buy from supermarkets. There were a couple
Speaker 2: of kosher Jewish shops that we would buy food from,
Speaker 2: but we were quite limited in our diet.
Speaker 1: So you were still going to coals and places around you.
Speaker 1: You just were only shopping in certain niles, only.
Speaker 2: Shopping for the things that we knew were allowed in
Speaker 2: the Kosher Authority little book that we had. Now, if
Speaker 2: you go to Coal's, actually you can see like a
Speaker 2: little k with a circle around on little things in
Speaker 2: the Supermark aisles, and you know that that's kosher. But
Speaker 2: we didn't have that back then, so we would refer
Speaker 2: to this little book and you'll tell us we can
Speaker 2: buy this particular brand of corn fins, and that's what
Speaker 2: we would buy.
Speaker 1: I think what I find fascinating about the Adusk community
Speaker 1: is that they are operating in such close proximity to
Speaker 1: the rest of society around them. But it's such an
Speaker 1: isolated world. But it's not like your streets and streets away,
Speaker 1: your next door to people in Melbourne living a completely
Speaker 1: different life.
Speaker 2: As a young child, you know, I would see that
Speaker 2: life around me, but it was so separate from me.
Speaker 2: I didn't even think about that life. And of course,
Speaker 2: as I got older and I started to notice more
Speaker 2: how people around me are living, it was a question
Speaker 2: of curiosity, but almost you know, we're more special. We
Speaker 2: live a certain way of life, and you know, don't
Speaker 2: even think about that way of life because it could
Speaker 2: influence you and tear you away from this life of truth.
Speaker 1: So you weren't yearning for what you saw in the
Speaker 1: backyards of other kids' homes.
Speaker 2: Not really. I think as a teenager walking down the
Speaker 2: street in really thick tights and long skirts in the summer,
Speaker 2: there would be a curiosity about what it would be
Speaker 2: like to have the sun actually touched my skin in
Speaker 2: some way. But I always had this sense that I
Speaker 2: was more special, or my modesty was something that made
Speaker 2: me more special.
Speaker 1: I want to delve a bit more into your family.
Speaker 1: We mentioned that there's seven siblings at the time when
Speaker 1: you were becoming a young teenager who was living in
Speaker 1: the house with you.
Speaker 2: So I had my two sisters, Nicole and Ellie, and
Speaker 2: my brothers Isaac and Ben.
Speaker 1: And when you think back on your childhood and living
Speaker 1: with your siblings and your parents, how does it make
Speaker 1: you feel.
Speaker 2: I try not to think about my childhood that much.
Speaker 2: It brings up a lot of really difficult memories. And
Speaker 2: all I remember is this all encompassing fear that I
Speaker 2: used to feel as a child, and the feeling of
Speaker 2: never ever feeling safe. I mean, love was such a
Speaker 2: foreign concept to me. That wasn't It was just about
Speaker 2: getting through the day and surviving.
Speaker 1: I know that every day is obviously different, but what
Speaker 1: did an average day look like for you as a kid,
Speaker 1: because you had daily chores and school around all of that.
Speaker 1: But what kind of rules were in place that your
Speaker 1: parents kind of made you abide by?
Speaker 2: Really, I was working from the minute I woke up,
Speaker 2: and I would wake up very early and complete all
Speaker 2: the chores that I had to complete in order to
Speaker 2: get to school. I would go to school and have
Speaker 2: our Jewish studies and English studies, and I'd come home
Speaker 2: and see another whole list of chores that I needed
Speaker 2: to do until very late at the night. And all
Speaker 2: the time there was this fear that my mother would
Speaker 2: be incredibly angry or she would blow up in some way,
Speaker 2: And there was this constant tension that was felt all
Speaker 2: the time.
Speaker 1: What kinds of things would she get angry about?
Speaker 2: No rhyme or reason for any of her anger outputs,
Speaker 2: at least what we felt as children, because one day
Speaker 2: something would be fine, and then the next day that
Speaker 2: would be something that was terribly wrong. So it was
Speaker 2: very hard to understand what I was doing wrong. And
Speaker 2: I always thought that I was a good child, or
Speaker 2: I tried to be a good child. I felt like
Speaker 2: I was an incredibly bad child because I was constantly
Speaker 2: being told off and beaten.
Speaker 1: Was it for things like not completing a chore to
Speaker 1: standards like were you just doing things like laundry and cooking?
Speaker 1: And she just wasn't happy with how you delivered those chores.
Speaker 2: It was if I didn't do it fast enough, I
Speaker 2: didn't do it well enough, or I spoke to her
Speaker 2: with the wrong tone. And I would modulate in my
Speaker 2: tone so that I was as submissive as possible, but
Speaker 2: still somehow that was seen as disrespectful. So it was
Speaker 2: nothing that I could really understand that I was doing.
Speaker 1: And what were the punishments if she was angry at you?
Speaker 2: The punishments often involve physical abuse. There was a lot
Speaker 2: of verbal abuse and being told that I'm worthless or nothing,
Speaker 2: or I don't deserve to live. There was a lot
Speaker 2: of food withdrawal, and there were many times that my
Speaker 2: mother would try and pit my siblings against me so
Speaker 2: that they would join in with her abuse. And of
Speaker 2: course at times my siblings had to do that, and
Speaker 2: they were forced to do that, but as we got older,
Speaker 2: we learned to apologize to each other after that.
Speaker 1: I want to focus a bit more on the food withdrawal,
Speaker 1: because obviously food is essential for life, and it's such
Speaker 1: a unique punishment. How did it manifest for you? Where
Speaker 1: did you get food? Because you would deny dinner a
Speaker 1: lot of the time, weren't you.
Speaker 2: I just remember being starving all of my childhood, and
Speaker 2: I think when I speak to my siblings, they say
Speaker 2: they remember that, this constant sense of never feeling full
Speaker 2: and always being hungry, and never certain that your next
Speaker 2: meal was guaranteed.
Speaker 1: And there were times where you were denied the toilet even.
Speaker 2: I write about this in the book about when we
Speaker 2: were young children and we weren't allowed to come downstairs
Speaker 2: once we had been sent to bed, and there was
Speaker 2: no toilet upstairs. And this was a constant issue for
Speaker 2: us because a lot of times we would drink to
Speaker 2: quell that hole in our stomach and not being able
Speaker 2: to go to the bathroom was incredibly difficult.
Speaker 1: When you look back at that in particular as an adult,
Speaker 1: are you shocked at some of the stuff that you
Speaker 1: and your siblings endured and survived.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I think having my own child and realizing the
Speaker 2: love and the desperate need to protect her, I couldn't
Speaker 2: imagine going to that extent to hurt someone so vulnerable.
Speaker 1: You write as well in a few instances about your
Speaker 1: siblings or members of your family being banished, being banished
Speaker 1: from the house, or the community or the religion. Was
Speaker 1: that a threat that was always hanging above you? And
Speaker 1: when did it happen in certain instances.
Speaker 2: Again, there's no real reason why it happened, but my
Speaker 2: mother would choose one of us. And my memories are
Speaker 2: more around my younger brothers because a lot of times
Speaker 2: I disassociated from when that happened to me. But at
Speaker 2: some point my mother would just decide that there was
Speaker 2: one child that didn't deserve to be a part of
Speaker 2: the family anymore, and they were banished to some place where,
Speaker 2: you know, we had a knowledge of this small you
Speaker 2: know this four to eight streets around our community, and
Speaker 2: they would be taken outside of our community, and to
Speaker 2: us that was the absolute biggest threat, that this person
Speaker 2: was not just going to be a part of our family,
Speaker 2: but no longer a part of our faith than our community.
Speaker 1: So they were dropped somewhere and then eventually what picked
Speaker 1: up or just left there for hours, days.
Speaker 2: Definitely hours. My memory is a little bit vague, but
Speaker 2: I do remember when my younger brother be sent off
Speaker 2: to a park or something outside of the community. I
Speaker 2: would sit there and beg my mother to allow my
Speaker 2: father to go and pick him up, and it would
Speaker 2: be hours and hours of worrying about him.
Speaker 1: Are there any happy memories from your childhood.
Speaker 2: That's a very difficult one to answer, unfortunately. Also, that's
Speaker 2: not how trauma works that you do remember. You know,
Speaker 2: you end up remembering the most traumatic memories. But there
Speaker 2: were times that we went away on day trips or holidays.
Speaker 2: But again, that all pervasive fear was always underlying everything
Speaker 2: that we did. And I think the sense of happiness,
Speaker 2: especially as a teenager, came from when my siblings and
Speaker 2: I would ban together almost in the sense of rebellion
Speaker 2: and support one another.
Speaker 1: This might be a heavy question, but do you remember
Speaker 1: how old you were, or when you first started thinking
Speaker 1: about death.
Speaker 2: I was very young when I was thinking about death.
Speaker 2: I was incredibly young. I couldn't imagine any other way
Speaker 2: of getting out of the amount of pain and and
Speaker 2: fear that I was living every day.
Speaker 1: We've spoken about your mum, but you do write in
Speaker 1: your memoir about feeling unsafe with your dad and not understanding.
Speaker 1: Why can you tell me about when that started? If
Speaker 1: you feel comfortable.
Speaker 2: That's still something I'm really working on. A lot of
Speaker 2: those memories only came back after my father passed away
Speaker 2: in twenty nineteen, so that's still something that I'm still
Speaker 2: working through.
Speaker 1: I want to talk about by mitzvah for our non
Speaker 1: Jewish listeners. Can you explain firstly what that is and
Speaker 1: what it was for your community when you were younger.
Speaker 2: So abut mitzvah as a girl is when you turn twelve,
Speaker 2: when you've become responsible for your own sins. Pretty much so,
Speaker 2: before twelve, you're considered in a way a pure soul,
Speaker 2: and your parents are responsible for your sins, and when
Speaker 2: you turn twelve, you are the responsible one, and anything
Speaker 2: that you do against God that's on you, no longer
Speaker 2: on your parents.
Speaker 1: And in the adusk community. Were there certain things that
Speaker 1: you were now allowed to do or not do once
Speaker 1: you became of age, so.
Speaker 2: To speak, or as a girl in the dust community,
Speaker 2: my life became more limited as I turned twelve. I
Speaker 2: wasn't allowed to sing anymore in the presence of a man.
Speaker 2: I wasn't allowed to ride a bike anymore because that
Speaker 2: wasn't modest. There were certain rules that came into place
Speaker 2: when I was seen as the age of maturity, which
Speaker 2: is twelve years old. That meant that I could no
Speaker 2: longer engage in certain practices because it wouldn't be modest anymore.
Speaker 1: So is it a milestone that you, as a child
Speaker 1: look forward to or you're not looking forward to it
Speaker 1: because you're going to have all these freedoms kind of
Speaker 1: taken away from you.
Speaker 2: I didn't see them as freedoms being taken away in
Speaker 2: a way. I saw it, I'm growing older, so I'm
Speaker 2: not allowed to sing in front of men because that
Speaker 2: my voice is more special. There was that, but for
Speaker 2: me personally, it was a terrifying time because I felt
Speaker 2: I was this terrible girl and suddenly I was going
Speaker 2: to be responsible for all of these sins and my
Speaker 2: soul is going to turn black. I was utterly terrified.
Speaker 1: There's something that happens to young girls when they're around twelve, thirteen, fourteen,
Speaker 1: they start getting their period. Were you taught about that
Speaker 1: around that time?
Speaker 2: Around that time is the first time that I heard
Speaker 2: about it. And I was told it was because of
Speaker 2: the sin of women that I would be bleeding once
Speaker 2: a month, and that was pretty much all that I
Speaker 2: was told about it. And I remember going to my
Speaker 2: older sister Nicole and just saying to her, you know
Speaker 2: what happens. What are you supposed to do? And she
Speaker 2: showed me what a pad was, and she said, you know,
Speaker 2: this is what you have to do, and you know
Speaker 2: when you need them, you need to ask a father
Speaker 2: to go and get them from a supermarket. But I
Speaker 2: just very quietly tell him that this is something that's
Speaker 2: very embarrassing. And it was something that was very very secretive.
Speaker 1: What about I mean, I know when I was thirteen,
Speaker 1: it kind of was all rolled into one. It was
Speaker 1: menstruation talking about that, it was puberty, and it was
Speaker 1: also a very basic but sex education. Were you given
Speaker 1: that when you were a teenager or when you were
Speaker 1: turning into a young woman?
Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, not. That was all that I was told
Speaker 2: about periods, and I think that was my education until
Speaker 2: just before I got married and met my now ex husband.
Speaker 1: You and your siblings went to a dust Israel school.
Speaker 1: It was within your community. What was the school like?
Speaker 1: Did you like going to school and what did you
Speaker 1: learn there?
Speaker 2: As a young Chrial, school was my safe place, and
Speaker 2: I loved going to school. It was a chance to
Speaker 2: get out of home and to learn, and I loved learning.
Speaker 2: We spent a majority of our day learning Jewish studies
Speaker 2: and learning how to perform all the things that we
Speaker 2: were expected to perform, and how to support the men
Speaker 2: in what they had to perform, and what our role
Speaker 2: was as a Jewish woman. And then we had some
Speaker 2: classes in English and math and other topics, but we
Speaker 2: had absolutely no regard for those topics. We did not
Speaker 2: respect the teachers. Now, looking back at that, I feel
Speaker 2: incredibly bad for the way that we used to treat
Speaker 2: the teachers that would come in and to teach us
Speaker 2: English and maths, because we would play up and we
Speaker 2: just had no respect for them whatsoever. I mean, we
Speaker 2: didn't see the point of them. Why did we need
Speaker 2: to learn English and maths when our job as a
Speaker 2: Jewish woman was to grow up, get married and have children,
Speaker 2: and it didn't make sense to us.
Speaker 1: So did you have you know, science, art, drama, any
Speaker 1: of those kinds of subjects that you would see in
Speaker 1: other Melbourne schools.
Speaker 2: We did have science, and we did have art, but
Speaker 2: again in art, you know, we were preparing stuff for
Speaker 2: the Jewish holidays, or you know, in science we had
Speaker 2: a quite limited curriculum because a lot of things we
Speaker 2: weren't allowed to know.
Speaker 1: I want to start talking about Mark Laifer. When do
Speaker 1: you remember her starting at the school and for what
Speaker 1: reason did she become principal.
Speaker 2: I recall her coming to Australia to be the head
Speaker 2: of the seminary, the girls seminary, which is what we
Speaker 2: call a year eleven twelve, and very quickly she became
Speaker 2: known in the community as this brilliant woman who could
Speaker 2: just do everything and had a lot of charisma and
Speaker 2: people were just drawn towards and shortly after she came,
Speaker 2: I think it was a year or two, she became
Speaker 2: the principal of the entire girls school. And I remember
Speaker 2: looking up at her and thinking that she isn't this
Speaker 2: amazing woman who seemed to just have this way of
Speaker 2: just dealing with everyone around her that everyone respected and adored,
Speaker 2: and having grown up in a community where males were
Speaker 2: always our leaders, to have a woman almost in that
Speaker 2: position that you know, even men would listen to was
Speaker 2: something that I had never seen.
Speaker 1: So it was quite exciting for you. Like you idolized her.
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely completely idolized her.
Speaker 1: You write about her having I think you call them
Speaker 1: special girls, or she used to call them special girls.
Speaker 1: What did that mean, especially before you were in the
Speaker 1: kind of inner circle. What did that look like from
Speaker 1: the outside.
Speaker 2: Her favorite girls were girls that she would pull out
Speaker 2: of class to ask to go run errands for her,
Speaker 2: or to go give messages to other teachers, or to
Speaker 2: just sit in halfuse and speak to her. So that
Speaker 2: was seen as a huge privilege.
Speaker 1: So you wanted in basically, Oh.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I could think of nothing that I wanted more
Speaker 2: at that age.
Speaker 1: Do you remember when you did start becoming a special
Speaker 1: favorite girl? And did it start innocently at first? Like
Speaker 1: was it just running errands?
Speaker 2: It was? It started very innocently. Or I called her
Speaker 2: pulling me aside one day and saying, you know, she
Speaker 2: knew about my home life, and she wanted to help me,
Speaker 2: and from that point forward, I felt a sense of
Speaker 2: connection to her. She was there to support me, and
Speaker 2: you know, you have those fantasies as a young child,
Speaker 2: maybe this person can save you. And I would run
Speaker 2: errands for her. I would be kept back sometimes from
Speaker 2: schall excursions to help her out in the school, and
Speaker 2: it was all very exciting. I felt very special.
Speaker 1: How long did it take to change or was there
Speaker 1: a certain turning point.
Speaker 2: It happened quite quickly. She asked my mother to give
Speaker 2: me private lessons and to come to the school on
Speaker 2: Sunday and have lessons with her. And from the very
Speaker 2: first lesson, she started almost touching me on my knees
Speaker 2: and on my thighs. And I was completely innocent at
Speaker 2: the time, and she was known around the school to
Speaker 2: be more touchy feely, and coming from a culture where
Speaker 2: nobody touched anybody else, touch was incredibly rare. We never
Speaker 2: hugged our friends in that kind of way, or it
Speaker 2: was oh, this is an Israeli quirk of hers. I
Speaker 2: had already become accustomed to this idea that she was
Speaker 2: someone that touched other people in an innocent way at
Speaker 2: the time.
Speaker 1: And also you had a mum who wasn't overly well,
Speaker 1: she wasn't affectionate, and as a young girl, I'm imagining
Speaker 1: that you probably desired motherly affection in that way.
Speaker 2: Oh. Absolutely. The first time that she touched me on
Speaker 2: my skin and her telling me that she was like
Speaker 2: a mother to me, those words are something that i'll, unfortunately,
Speaker 2: i'll never forget because it meant everything to my young self.
Speaker 1: How did it escalate?
Speaker 2: It escalated quite quickly once she understood that I wasn't
Speaker 2: going to once she I don't know what she understood. Actually,
Speaker 2: once she realized or I realized there was nothing I
Speaker 2: could do when there was no one I could tell,
Speaker 2: I think she just continued progressing and touching me more
Speaker 2: and more.
Speaker 1: What did she tell you in those moments or did
Speaker 1: she say anything?
Speaker 2: She used to tell me that this is love and
Speaker 2: this is what love means, and not having absolutely any
Speaker 2: understanding of love. I believed her for a long time.
Speaker 1: I believed her once the touch turned from innocent to abuse,
Speaker 1: did you know in your mind or in your body
Speaker 1: that what was happening was wrong?
Speaker 2: I had some innate understanding that this was incredibly wrong,
Speaker 2: but not any understanding of why it was wrong or
Speaker 2: how it was wrong. But my body used my survival system,
Speaker 2: and I would disassociate and just disappear from the room
Speaker 2: when she was abusing me, to the point that I
Speaker 2: would just be completely frozen and still and at times
Speaker 2: just watching her from above, knowing that she's doing this
Speaker 2: to my body, but I'm not in that body.
Speaker 1: So they started when you were around sixteen. How frequent
Speaker 1: did it become?
Speaker 2: Sometimes it would be several times a week, and then
Speaker 2: sometimes not for a few weeks. And then I would
Speaker 2: notice other girls disappearing into her office and her door
Speaker 2: closed and the blinds down, and I knew that there
Speaker 2: was someone in else's in there, and now I knew
Speaker 2: what happened in there, and there would almost be a
Speaker 2: sense of relief that that wasn't me. I couldn't think
Speaker 2: part of that.
Speaker 1: But you didn't know about your sisters and their experiences
Speaker 1: at that point.
Speaker 2: Not at that point. I had witnessed her climb into
Speaker 2: my sister's bed one year in camp, and I had suspected,
Speaker 2: but because we didn't have the words to speak about it.
Speaker 2: The next morning, I just gave this look to my sister,
Speaker 2: and my sister gave this look back to me and
Speaker 2: it was some sort of understanding, and that was it.
Speaker 2: We never spoke about it. We just didn't know how to.
Speaker 1: When you say you didn't have the words to speak
Speaker 1: about it. I found this fascinating that you write about
Speaker 1: not even knowing what the word vagina was.
Speaker 2: Well, I didn't know I had a vagina, let alone
Speaker 2: a name for one.
Speaker 1: So what were you taught about that part of your body?
Speaker 2: I assume that the same place that I urinated from
Speaker 2: was the same place that I got my period, was
Speaker 2: the same place that she was abusing me. I just
Speaker 2: didn't understand that there was more than one place down there.
Speaker 1: And the idea of consent and abuse and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: that just wasn't something that was in your world.
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely not. It was never spoken about.
Speaker 1: Did it stop after you finished school?
Speaker 2: Well, I went straight from finishing school to becoming a
Speaker 2: student teacher under missus Lapher, and it didn't actually stop
Speaker 2: until I was out of the country and living away
Speaker 2: from her.
Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime Conversations with me Jemma Bath.
Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Dussy Erlick about her life in the
Speaker 1: adask community and the abuse she suffered at the hands
Speaker 1: of her school principal, Malkalaifer. You got married when you
Speaker 1: were nineteen, which is young in most people's eyes, but
Speaker 1: it's actually on the older side for your community, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I had friends getting married at seventeen and eighteen,
Speaker 2: and by the time I got engaged when I was eighteen,
Speaker 2: and I was so relieved because I knew if I
Speaker 2: turned nineteen twenty and I hadn't been matched up with
Speaker 2: someone by the matchmaker, that meant that I wasn't seen
Speaker 2: of being worthy of marriage, or there was some problem
Speaker 2: or issue with me, and people would look at me
Speaker 2: in that way. So it was a big fear of
Speaker 2: mine that I get married as soon as possible.
Speaker 1: So the idea that you were going to be in
Speaker 1: an arranged marriage, that wasn't nerve wracking to you, that
Speaker 1: you wouldn't know this person before you married them.
Speaker 2: That was the way that all my friends were meeting
Speaker 2: their husbands. It wasn't strange. I mean, I spent eight
Speaker 2: hours over a kind of a week or week and
Speaker 2: a half with my now ex husband, but you know,
Speaker 2: some of my friends spent maybe an hour, so eight
Speaker 2: hours was considered a long time.
Speaker 1: I want to talk about color. Is that how I
Speaker 1: pronounce it? Bridal lessons?
Speaker 2: Yeah, color lessons.
Speaker 1: That seems to have been the time when you started
Speaker 1: to properly learn about sex and sex education and all
Speaker 1: of that kind of stuff. Do you remember your teacher
Speaker 1: sitting you down and kind of telling you what sex was.
Speaker 2: I remember her sitting down and drawing a picture for
Speaker 2: me and saying, this is what you have down there,
Speaker 2: and this is what a man has, and you need
Speaker 2: to find this place, and you need to do these
Speaker 2: rituals and find this place in order for you to
Speaker 2: get married. And it was such a surprise to me.
Speaker 2: I just couldn't fathom this idea that this is how
Speaker 2: children are born into this world. I just absolutely could
Speaker 2: not fathom it.
Speaker 1: How did you think children were brought into the world.
Speaker 2: I don't remember how I used to think about it.
Speaker 2: I knew it or something between a man and a woman.
Speaker 2: I just didn't know what that something was or have
Speaker 2: any idea. Couldn't imagine what that thing was.
Speaker 1: What were the rules between a married couple in your
Speaker 1: community in terms of sex once you were married?
Speaker 2: So is considered unclean when she has her period and
Speaker 2: needs to be separated from her husband, and by separation,
Speaker 2: you have the same rules before your husband in that
Speaker 2: time as you would any other man in the community.
Speaker 2: So you need to stay covered up, and you'll have
Speaker 2: to have your hair covered even at home, and you
Speaker 2: can't even pass anything to them because your hands might touch.
Speaker 2: You have to have separate beds. And then for a
Speaker 2: week after you've finished your period, you need to check
Speaker 2: yourself twice a day, morning and evening to check that
Speaker 2: you actually have stopped pleading. And by checking it would
Speaker 2: be wrapping a little white cloth around my finger and
Speaker 2: actually properly checking that there was no blood. And once
Speaker 2: I had ascertained that I was completely clean, for seven days,
Speaker 2: and if something happened in those seven days, you would
Speaker 2: have to start again. And during those seven days, and
Speaker 2: I don't really write about this in the book, but
Speaker 2: we had to wear white underwear and have white sheets,
Speaker 2: so if anything happened, we would have an understanding that
Speaker 2: we weren't clean yet and we would have to start
Speaker 2: account again. And once you had been clean, then there
Speaker 2: was a ritual bath where you dipped yourself in three
Speaker 2: times naked and watched by someone to make sure that
Speaker 2: it was kosher and you were ready for your.
Speaker 1: Husband, and so once you knew about all of these processes,
Speaker 1: because you would have only learned about this once you
Speaker 1: actually started having these bridal lessons, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I was so confused. I would check in with
Speaker 2: my bridal teacher continuously in those first few months of marriage.
Speaker 2: You know, what, if I'm doing something wrong and still
Speaker 2: unclean in some way, and then my husband is with
Speaker 2: me and am unclean, that's not me. That's my sin,
Speaker 2: and that's a huge sin. Any child that's born you
Speaker 2: from that would be illegitimate.
Speaker 1: Did those lessons also kind of get the cogs turning
Speaker 1: in your brain a little bit more about your experiences
Speaker 1: with Lifer?
Speaker 2: Not really not at the time. At the time it
Speaker 2: suddenly made sense, Oh, well that's where she's putting her hand,
Speaker 2: and now that makes sense to me. But I still
Speaker 2: didn't have any understanding of the abuse, that this was
Speaker 2: what happened between a man and a wife in order
Speaker 2: to have children. That was it. That was the breadth
Speaker 2: of my understanding. And I didn't then equate that with well,
Speaker 2: that's sex and therefore what she's doing. You know, I
Speaker 2: didn't connect the dots at that stage.
Speaker 1: You also spent your wedding night at her house.
Speaker 2: Why she was overseas at the time. Her daughter was
Speaker 2: getting married on the same day as mine and my
Speaker 2: husband At the time, we were planning on living in
Speaker 2: Melbourne for a month before we went to Israel, so
Speaker 2: she offered her house to my parents. And I never
Speaker 2: thought even how would I even say anything about why
Speaker 2: I didn't want that to happen. I had so much
Speaker 2: disassociation between the different parts of my life, I didn't
Speaker 2: even think about saying.
Speaker 1: Anything, So it wasn't particularly triggering for you.
Speaker 2: I just remember waking up that first morning and just
Speaker 2: figuring this and so freedom because I was finally out
Speaker 2: of home and I could wake up at my own
Speaker 2: time and not have to get out of bed and
Speaker 2: do a whole list of chores. And the fact that
Speaker 2: I was in the same bed that she had literally
Speaker 2: raped me on weeks earlier, well, that was the extent
Speaker 2: of my disassociation. I just didn't even think about it.
Speaker 1: So marriage for you was a fresh start.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I saw it as my ticket out of home.
Speaker 2: But also as I was married and I was joining,
Speaker 2: you know, the next stage of women, I already a
Speaker 2: mother soon, and I was doing my duty as a
Speaker 2: person in this world.
Speaker 1: Once you had been married and you're in Melbourne for
Speaker 1: a month or so, you did move to Israel. Was
Speaker 1: that a happier time for you, being, you know, physically
Speaker 1: away from your mom, your family lifer?
Speaker 2: It was for a short period of time, I think,
Speaker 2: before the loneliness set in of being away from my
Speaker 2: siblings and away from everyone that I knew, and not
Speaker 2: speaking the language, and being in this foreign country that
Speaker 2: has a very different culture to Australia and not getting pregnant.
Speaker 2: My mental health difficulties started just piling on pretty quickly.
Speaker 1: While you were over there. You did disclose what happened
Speaker 1: to you to someone? How did that happen? Who did
Speaker 1: you tell?
Speaker 2: I think it kind of started with me having quite
Speaker 2: a bit of difficulty getting pregnant and having access to
Speaker 2: the Internet for the first time, looking up sexual websites
Speaker 2: to try and understand what it was or what was
Speaker 2: happening and why I wasn't getting pregnant, and just really
Speaker 2: educating myself a little bit more about sex, but not
Speaker 2: having any understanding of the Internet. I ended up in
Speaker 2: some very shady places and that scared me. That scared
Speaker 2: me terribly, and I had such a curiosity about it
Speaker 2: as well, and that really scared me. So I ended
Speaker 2: up going to Kana Rabinowitz to talk about this, to
Speaker 2: talk about these dark, terrifying thoughts I was, and the
Speaker 2: conversation very quickly moved to this doesn't make sense that
Speaker 2: you're having these thoughts and this curiosity unless you have
Speaker 2: been abused.
Speaker 1: It took you a while to actually say her name, though,
Speaker 1: didn't it.
Speaker 2: I didn't want to. I didn't think that I would
Speaker 2: ever have to. It was just I was just starting
Speaker 2: to connect the dots that it was abuse because of
Speaker 2: that education I was giving myself online and I was
Speaker 2: just beginning to connect the dots and realizing that if
Speaker 2: I said anything, the implications of that, and that was terrifying.
Speaker 2: This is not something that we talk about, you know,
Speaker 2: what would happen to me and my family if I
Speaker 2: said something. I didn't want to say her name. I
Speaker 2: didn't plan on saying her name, and I think when
Speaker 2: Hanna Rabinowitz said that she would have to talk to
Speaker 2: missus life and tell her that there was a teacher
Speaker 2: in her school, I felt that I had to say something.
Speaker 1: So you did tell her, and then word got back
Speaker 1: to Melbourne How quickly did your allegations spread throughout the community.
Speaker 2: Not very quickly at first, because it got back to
Speaker 2: Melbourne and several rabbis were involved and asked about what
Speaker 2: they should do with Lifa, And then I think was
Speaker 2: it within a week or so, Lafa was leaving and
Speaker 2: coming back to Israel, and that's really when the rest
Speaker 2: of the community started talking about it and wondering who
Speaker 2: it was and why this person had said anything, and
Speaker 2: if it was really true, and to what extent was
Speaker 2: it true, And those questions were everywhere. Everyone was talking
Speaker 2: about it, and everybody pretty much quickly figured out that
Speaker 2: it was me because they knew that it was someone
Speaker 2: in Israel, a student, and at the time I was
Speaker 2: really one of the only students living in Israel of
Speaker 2: that age. I just remember my friend calling me up
Speaker 2: and saying that she'd heard rumors and all these ridiculous
Speaker 2: rumors about me, about why I had sent something like this,
Speaker 2: that I was divorcing my husband, who at the time,
Speaker 2: you know, we were very much together.
Speaker 1: How did your sisters react. Did they start coming to
Speaker 1: you and asking about the allegation as well.
Speaker 2: I think my older sisters Dahlia and Tamar were incredibly shocked,
Speaker 2: and especially Tama. She had seen the relationship between me
Speaker 2: and Missus Laifer, she had seen that closeness. She worked
Speaker 2: at the school, you know, she knew missus life. She
Speaker 2: had worked under her for a little bit, so for
Speaker 2: her it was an incredible shock. With Nicole, it was
Speaker 2: more when we had that conversation after Anna Rabinowitz called
Speaker 2: her and asked her if it was true what had happened,
Speaker 2: and Nicole said yes. That was the first time that
Speaker 2: I knew that it had happened to Nicole too, and
Speaker 2: still we didn't have the language to speak about it.
Speaker 2: I don't think I found out about Ellie for a
Speaker 2: while after that. I don't think she disclosed it for
Speaker 2: another few months, So.
Speaker 1: You still struggled to kind of have that dialogue with people,
Speaker 1: even after you had told at least one person what
Speaker 1: had happened.
Speaker 2: I remember telling my husband at the time about it
Speaker 2: because I had to, because I knew the gospip of
Speaker 2: and it's better coming from me than hearing it from
Speaker 2: other people. And I remember having maybe one or two
Speaker 2: conversations about it and then never speaking about it again
Speaker 2: the entire rest of our marriage. We never sat down
Speaker 2: and actually talked about what happened. It was just, okay,
Speaker 2: this happened, It's been dealt with, she's been sent away.
Speaker 2: You know, she's not part of the community anymore. That
Speaker 2: chapter of your life is over. And that was it.
Speaker 1: What about the Australian media, because when life are fled
Speaker 1: it did make headlines. How because it was such an
Speaker 1: enclosed community.
Speaker 2: That surprised me so much. I remember sitting there on
Speaker 2: my computer news are googling malklife and seeing these articles
Speaker 2: come up. And of course I had no understanding of
Speaker 2: how sexual abuse was reported, so I was sure that
Speaker 2: I was going to find my name somewhere and everyone
Speaker 2: would know this shame that I carried around. I think
Speaker 2: there was some person in that dust community felt the
Speaker 2: way that life had been sent away was incredibly wrong
Speaker 2: and alerted the Australian Jewish News, and Australian Jewish News
Speaker 2: picked it up, and then the rest of the media
Speaker 2: picked it up after that.
Speaker 1: How did you feel, Obviously you saw that your name
Speaker 1: wasn't there in those early reports, but how did it
Speaker 1: feel to see headlines like Marklifer accues of molestation, sexual abuse,
Speaker 1: all these kind of big, heavily loaded words in headlines.
Speaker 2: There was a sense of wanting to run away and
Speaker 2: hide from that. I felt very much almost like they're
Speaker 2: making a bigger deal of it than it is because
Speaker 2: I didn't have an understand I didn't even then, really
Speaker 2: hadn't put words to this is sexual abuse. I hadn't
Speaker 2: even put those words to it completely yet. So I
Speaker 2: just I wanted to hide away from that, and I
Speaker 2: was in some way relieved that I wasn't back home
Speaker 2: in the community and around that because the community was
Speaker 2: panicking and I knew that, and I kept hearing about that.
Speaker 1: With life are gone and these kind of allegations out
Speaker 1: in the headlines, Basically for a next step for the
Speaker 1: police to get involved, you kind of have to make
Speaker 1: a statement. You have to tell them what happen and
Speaker 1: start getting that ball more rolling, which you guys, you
Speaker 1: and your sisters didn't do for quite a while after
Speaker 1: that time. So did life almost go back to normal
Speaker 1: a little bit for a while.
Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, The gossip kind of died down and pretty
Speaker 2: much life went back to normal. Sometimes I sit back, like,
Speaker 2: especially during the trial, I've sat back and kind of
Speaker 2: questioned myself, would I have made a police statement then
Speaker 2: if I knew that that was something that I could do,
Speaker 2: and I can't really answer that. I just know that
Speaker 2: that wasn't even something I was aware what was possible.
Speaker 1: Well, you had a lot going on, to be honest, like, yes,
Speaker 1: you had all of this stuff with life are happening,
Speaker 1: But you were talking about before you were struggling with infertility.
Speaker 1: You're also struggling with a lot of depression and anxiety
Speaker 1: living in Israel, thinking about what the next steps for
Speaker 1: you and your then husband were. You did eventually welcome
Speaker 1: your beautiful daughter, Lily in twenty ten. Now did everything
Speaker 1: you'd experienced as a child as a teenager impact your
Speaker 1: experience with early motherhood.
Speaker 2: I think it was having my daughter and realizing that
Speaker 2: I would go to the ends of the earth to
Speaker 2: protect her and made me realize so much more how
Speaker 2: vulnerable and young I was and how no one had
Speaker 2: protected me, and that caused a lot of mental health
Speaker 2: difficulties at the time. It made me also begin questioning
Speaker 2: my way of life.
Speaker 1: I think I'm touching on this with you as well,
Speaker 1: because I've just become a mom. I'm a year in
Speaker 1: to motherhood and it's hard. It's really hard that first
Speaker 1: year especially you are so vulnerable, and I feel like
Speaker 1: it kind of exacerbates all of the other hard shit
Speaker 1: happening in your life. Is that something that you kind
Speaker 1: of experience.
Speaker 2: Oh, definitely, one hundred percent. I think all the hormones
Speaker 2: and everything flooding back, breastfeeding my daughter also triggering a
Speaker 2: lot of memories, and I was just so desperate to
Speaker 2: not be the way that my mother was. I was
Speaker 2: desperate to learn everything and understand how to be the
Speaker 2: best mum for my daughter. But that caused me a
Speaker 2: lot of anxiety because I didn't know how I could
Speaker 2: be a good mother to my daughter. Yeah, it was
Speaker 2: a very very tricky time. My coping mechanisms of dealing
Speaker 2: with all of that was self harming and I was
Speaker 2: incredibly suicidal during that time.
Speaker 1: You did get psychiatric help. How did that transform your life?
Speaker 2: That had a major impact on my life. I think
Speaker 2: walking into the hospital and speaking with other moms that
Speaker 2: were there, you know, to do the best that they
Speaker 2: could do for their children, and realizing this whole us
Speaker 2: versus them mentality I've had all my life wasn't true.
Speaker 2: And if that wasn't true, what else wasn't true? And
Speaker 2: I think it was at the same time that my
Speaker 2: sister had met someone and was going out with someone
Speaker 2: that talked to her about going to the police. And
Speaker 2: Ellie had gone to the police, and she told me
Speaker 2: that she'd gone to the police about mal Kalifa, And
Speaker 2: I'm grappling with this question, you know, do I go
Speaker 2: to the police too, And what are indications that would
Speaker 2: have on my daughter? And just sitting there, you know,
Speaker 2: talking to other people outside of my community, and realizing
Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong with going to the police, So why
Speaker 2: am I made to feel like that's a bad idea?
Speaker 2: And that really started to make me question my way
Speaker 2: of life.
Speaker 1: Do you remember walking into that police station for the
Speaker 1: first time and disclosing to an officer what had happened
Speaker 1: to you?
Speaker 2: I do. I remember going there with my wig, and
Speaker 2: I remember still doing my wedding ring and sitting there
Speaker 2: and not knowing how to speak about these things. And
Speaker 2: luckily I was met with an incredible police officer, Daniel Newton,
Speaker 2: who was very gentle and didn't push me and allowed
Speaker 2: me to talk at my own pace. And there were
Speaker 2: some things I still couldn't say, so I was allowed
Speaker 2: to go home and write about them.
Speaker 1: Was it for you being able to get it off
Speaker 1: your chest to kind of hand what had happened to
Speaker 1: you over to someone else to deal with.
Speaker 2: Not in that sense. I think the consequences of me
Speaker 2: doing that overwhelmed any other feeling. Now looking back, I
Speaker 2: can say, yes, it must have been in some way cathartic,
Speaker 2: but I don't think I felt that at the time.
Speaker 1: Had Ellie left the at US community by.
Speaker 2: Then she had my two brothers had as well.
Speaker 1: How soon after you went to the police did you
Speaker 1: make the decision to not just leave your community, but
Speaker 1: I guess in doing that you also made the decision
Speaker 1: to leave your husband, who was very religious.
Speaker 2: I think there were a lot of things going on
Speaker 2: at the same time, so making that police statement and
Speaker 2: me questioning my way of life, and there were difficulties
Speaker 2: in my marriage because I was questioning my way of
Speaker 2: life and then also seeing this other life that seemed
Speaker 2: a lot more free, and at the same time still
Speaker 2: dealing with self harm and being suicidal. I don't know
Speaker 2: exact moment that I made that decision, but I know
Speaker 2: when I left hospital for the first time, my then
Speaker 2: husband and I decided to separate and trial a separation.
Speaker 1: How do you go about doing that in your world?
Speaker 1: Is that a hard thing to do? To divorce someone
Speaker 1: within the Dusk community.
Speaker 2: It wasn't something I was familiar with at all. I
Speaker 2: think I knew one other person that had got divorced,
Speaker 2: and it was something that, again was very secretive and
Speaker 2: not spoken about and kind of shrouded in this thing
Speaker 2: of shame. I actually didn't know anything about what being
Speaker 2: divorce meant or how I go about doing that. And
Speaker 2: it wasn't like I had anybody I could really look
Speaker 2: at and say, oh, well, you know, they managed to
Speaker 2: do what I could do.
Speaker 1: Is it easier said than done? Building a new life
Speaker 1: completely different to the one you've known for twenty three years.
Speaker 2: It's so incredibly difficult. I don't even know if I
Speaker 2: could describe it in words. But suddenly being in this
Speaker 2: completely different, you know, culture almost I mean I was
Speaker 2: still in Australia, but I was living among people that
Speaker 2: had grown up in the secular world, and they spoke
Speaker 2: different to me, you know, they had different experiences. I
Speaker 2: had to suddenly learn all these new rules of how
Speaker 2: to just exist in that world, rules that people grow
Speaker 2: up and not think about. But I didn't know how
Speaker 2: to speak to men. I didn't know how to date.
Speaker 2: I didn't know how to even pay my bills. It
Speaker 2: was actually an incredibly dangerous time for me because I
Speaker 2: was so naive and so vulnerable. I ended up in
Speaker 2: a lot of sticky situations, situations that I almost lost
Speaker 2: my life.
Speaker 1: How did the negligence case that you brought against ADUs
Speaker 1: Israel School? How did that play out?
Speaker 2: So that wasn't really a decision that I made. It
Speaker 2: was more decision of necessity. My lawyer said I needed
Speaker 2: help with parenting issues, and I didn't have any fund
Speaker 2: so I had no money whatsoever to my name, and
Speaker 2: I needed this legal help from lawyers to be able
Speaker 2: to work out my parenting issues. And the only way
Speaker 2: I kind of could afford it is they told me
Speaker 2: if I took out a case against the school and
Speaker 2: won that case, I could then pay for these other
Speaker 2: legal issues. And my now ex father in law had
Speaker 2: kind of floated the idea as a lawyer about going
Speaker 2: the legal way. There was still so much shame around
Speaker 2: all of it. I couldn't even contemplate it at the time.
Speaker 1: Did winning that case give you any confidence at all?
Speaker 2: I think going through that whole trial and having to
Speaker 2: speak about the use for the first time. I was
Speaker 2: in a much healthier mindset and I felt I had
Speaker 2: a better sense of self and a lot more self
Speaker 2: worth by that time, and I'd been working for years
Speaker 2: on that and hearing that validation in the court and
Speaker 2: knowing that I'd been heard and believed and seen and
Speaker 2: validated was incredibly empowering.
Speaker 1: Lifer, After you and your sisters went to police, her
Speaker 1: extradition from Israel was ordered in twenty fourteen. She didn't
Speaker 1: arrive on our shores until twenty twenty one.
Speaker 2: Her tradition was actually ordered in twenty.
Speaker 1: Twelve, twenty twelve, so it was even longer.
Speaker 2: It was maybe I think twenty thirteen. They finally sent
Speaker 2: the extradition papers to Israel and kind of sat in
Speaker 2: Israel for about a year or so before they actually
Speaker 2: picked it up and went and arrested her. So yes
Speaker 2: went on for a long time.
Speaker 1: Why why did it take so long to bring her
Speaker 1: back to Australia to face these charges.
Speaker 2: Oh, she's a master manipulator. I mean we know that
Speaker 2: from the way that she abused myself and many other people,
Speaker 2: and she used that manipulation to manipulate the legal system
Speaker 2: there pretend she was mentally ill and try and get
Speaker 2: out of ever coming back to Australia, and she had
Speaker 2: some very powerful people helping her.
Speaker 1: How did that process of watching the person that abused
Speaker 1: you evade the law for so long and have all
Speaker 1: of these other people kind of helped prop that up,
Speaker 1: How did that feel for you? And what was your
Speaker 1: relationship with the justice system watching that kind of play out?
Speaker 2: I felt incredibly angry. I felt that this was a
Speaker 2: sign of a much bigger problem that we still have
Speaker 2: as society. So many systems in place that aid and
Speaker 2: help abusers as opposed to helping victims. There was just
Speaker 2: so much that needed to change in order for her
Speaker 2: to be brought back to justice. Sometimes it seems almost
Speaker 2: unbelievable that she actually did come back here.
Speaker 1: I think it's unbelievable that you and your sisters had
Speaker 1: to fight for so long and so hard. You guys
Speaker 1: had a hashtag bring life a home. You were traveling
Speaker 1: over there, you were doing press conferences, you were doing
Speaker 1: everything in your power. Did that take a toll?
Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, But we knew if we didn't continue and
Speaker 2: keep going and pushing for this to happen, she was
Speaker 2: there living in a community that ignored everything that had
Speaker 2: happened before, and we just couldn't live with the fact
Speaker 2: that she would abuse anyone else, and that was something
Speaker 2: that kept us going through all those years.
Speaker 1: How did it feel when she finally touched down on
Speaker 1: Australian soil.
Speaker 2: I mean, that was the beginning of a whole new
Speaker 2: waiting game, But at the time it felt almost surreal.
Speaker 1: And the trial, I know you'd already kind of had
Speaker 1: a taste of standing up and having to tell people
Speaker 1: about what you did, but this was at a whole
Speaker 1: new level. Oh absolutely, How did it feel? Because I
Speaker 1: think when you haven't sat in a courtroom I have,
Speaker 1: I've watched people stand up and give witness statements, but
Speaker 1: I've never had to do it myself. It looks overwhelming,
Speaker 1: It looks incredibly hard. How did you find that experience.
Speaker 2: Incredibly incredibly re traumatizing? Having to sit there and being
Speaker 2: interrogated and being made out to be a liar and
Speaker 2: having to share all of these memories in excruciating detail,
Speaker 2: and then being interrogated and where they're trying to prove
Speaker 2: that you're lying about all of this or imagining it
Speaker 2: in some way. But It wasn't just that the abuse was.
Speaker 2: I wasn't just questioned about the abuse. I was questioned
Speaker 2: about everything in my life, everything from my marriage to
Speaker 2: my daughter to what I watched on the computer. Literally
Speaker 2: nothing was but absolutely nothing. And it literally felt like
Speaker 2: I was just dancing to her tune again because she
Speaker 2: was sitting there at the back of the courtroom behind
Speaker 2: a screen so that I couldn't see her, and she
Speaker 2: couldn't see me, although she had a little camera where
Speaker 2: she could see me as I was on the stand.
Speaker 2: That was more to protect me, so I couldn't see her.
Speaker 2: Not having to say anything where I'm there on the stand,
Speaker 2: you know, being interrogated about my entire life and.
Speaker 1: Putting every detail out there for people to pull apart.
Speaker 1: And as you've mentioned as well, like going through the
Speaker 1: kind of trauma that you've experienced, you don't remember a
Speaker 1: lot of things. Was that kind of used against you?
Speaker 2: It was, and having to say those things when I'm
Speaker 2: feeling retriggered and retraumatized and stay calm and not get
Speaker 2: defensive in any way, as if becoming defensive would mean
Speaker 2: that I'm lying.
Speaker 1: This might be too big a question, But do you
Speaker 1: think there's a better way.
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of different things that can
Speaker 2: help the system be there more for victims. You know.
Speaker 2: I look at my journey through the Victorian legal system,
Speaker 2: and I had a great prosecution team and a great
Speaker 2: police and I was going through them with my sisters,
Speaker 2: and as I write about in the book, I ended
Speaker 2: up back in hospital. You know, that's how much I
Speaker 2: struggled with it. There has to be a better way.
Speaker 1: There has to be Did the guilty verdict and the
Speaker 1: sentence she got fifteen years? Did it bring you any peace?
Speaker 2: It did? It really did. Just being able to put
Speaker 2: that behind me and not have that in my future anymore,
Speaker 2: which is something that I've had really all my life.
Speaker 2: And I didn't realize what a sense of peace it
Speaker 2: was walking away from that and knowing that justice was
Speaker 2: served and what's understanding how incredibly rare that is. It's
Speaker 2: incredibly rare for a sexual abuser to be found guilty
Speaker 2: in the system, which is ridiculous, ridiculous to go through
Speaker 2: all of that, and there's definitely a sense of peace
Speaker 2: knowing that's behind me.
Speaker 1: What made you want to write a book?
Speaker 2: I love writing, and I felt that it was a
Speaker 2: very important story to share. I feel that's how we
Speaker 2: learn as a society from other people's stories. I know
Speaker 2: that I felt much more alone reading other people's stories
Speaker 2: that have gone through similar circumstances.
Speaker 1: And I guess the focus had been so much on
Speaker 1: Lifer and what she did to you. But what I
Speaker 1: took away from your book was everything that happened before that,
Speaker 1: everything that's shaped to you were before you met Lifer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that was a part of writing,
Speaker 2: of trying to explain why I was so vulnerable and
Speaker 2: naive and how the world I was born into shaped me.
Speaker 1: You mentioned earlier your father passed away in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 1: Have you got any contact with your mum?
Speaker 2: No, I don't. I haven't had for years.
Speaker 1: What is life like for you now? Are you happy?
Speaker 2: I am. I have a lot more moments of peace
Speaker 2: and a lot more moments of happiness, and I can
Speaker 2: look towards the future from a completely different space. I
Speaker 2: don't feel like I'm in a survival space anymore, which
Speaker 2: I didn't realize I was in for such a long time.
Speaker 1: Do you consider yourself religious anymore in any way?
Speaker 2: No, I live a secular lifestyle.
Speaker 1: And what do you want people to take away from
Speaker 1: your story, from hearing everything that you've gone through.
Speaker 2: I want people to feel less alone. I want people
Speaker 2: to learn and understand and to be able to empathize
Speaker 2: with other peop people in their life that are going
Speaker 2: through circumstances or dealing with the justice system, or going
Speaker 2: through abuse. And I hope it changes the conversation around
Speaker 2: what as a society we need to do to better
Speaker 2: protect our most vulnerable.
Speaker 1: Thanks to Dussie for entrusting us to help tell her
Speaker 1: story on True Crime Conversations. Her memoir In Bad Faith
Speaker 1: is out now. You can find a link to it
Speaker 1: in our episode description. This episode was hosted by me
Speaker 1: Jemma Bass, with audio design by Tom Lyon. Our executive
Speaker 1: producer is Geom Moylan. If you're looking for something else
Speaker 1: to listen to, like and follow all of our Mommamea
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