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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waders. This podcast was

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Speaker 1: recorded on Hey, I'm Jemma Bath, host of True Crime

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Speaker 1: Conversations and did you know that the team at Mamma

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Speaker 1: Mia is bringing you over one hundred hours of the

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Speaker 1: best content from your award winning podcasts for the Hot

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Speaker 1: Pod Summer of your Dreams. Well, we are here at

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Speaker 1: two Crime Conversations. We've handpicked some of the most chilling

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Speaker 1: and thought provoking episodes from our feed, including gripping cult stories,

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Speaker 1: powerful interviews with crime victims, and in depth accounts from

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Speaker 1: women who have been incarcerated sharing the journeys that led

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Speaker 1: them to that place. And that's just the beginning. We

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Speaker 1: first brought you this conversation with Dussy Elick at the

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Speaker 1: start of the year. You might know her story or

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Speaker 1: you might not. Either way, it's truly powerful and worth

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Speaker 1: a listen. In twenty twenty three, Malka Leifel was sentenced

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Speaker 1: to fifteen years in prison for eighteen counts of sexual

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Speaker 1: abuse against Dussy and her little sister. Life was the

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Speaker 1: sister's former high school principal, and when whispers of their

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Speaker 1: allegations came to light in two thousand and eight, she

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Speaker 1: fled from her home in Melbourne to Israel before any

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Speaker 1: formal complaint could be made. Dussy is such a strong

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Speaker 1: woman and I took so much away from this conversation.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen. This episode contains discussions of sexual assault

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Speaker 1: and mental health struggles. Please take care while listening. Eighteen

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Speaker 1: year old Dassy sat shocked in her colour teacher's house,

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Speaker 1: staring at a diagram of a penis and a vagina.

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Speaker 1: Now that she was engaged to be married, her mother

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Speaker 1: had organized for her to get bridal lessons, where she

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Speaker 1: was being educated about sex for the first time. Despite

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Speaker 1: living in the inner city suburbs of Melbourne in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and five, Dusty lived within the strict and isolated

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Speaker 1: confines of the ultra orthodox Adas Jewish community with her

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Speaker 1: six siblings and her parents. They had no TV, no Internet,

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Speaker 1: and no access to information from secular society, despite it

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Speaker 1: operating near meters away from them. The idea that she

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Speaker 1: even had a vagina was absolutely blowing Dussy's mind. She'd

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Speaker 1: never been taught the correct terms of her anatomy, let

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Speaker 1: alone what it looked like down there. But as she

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Speaker 1: listened intently to the lesson, something started to click into place.

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Speaker 1: Is this what missus Lifeer meant when she said she

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Speaker 1: was preparing her for marriage. For years, her high school

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Speaker 1: principle had been touching her, But in Dussi's world, there

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Speaker 1: was no language around sexual abuse. She just knew what

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Speaker 1: was wrong. Since the age of sixteen, she'd learned to

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Speaker 1: numb her mind. Disassociation was her biggert to protect her

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Speaker 1: from the fear and pain. A trance like state would

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Speaker 1: keep her subconscious traveling far away from her reality. Darcy

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Speaker 1: had hoped marriage would be an escape not just from

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Speaker 1: her principle but her troubled home life. But what she

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Speaker 1: didn't realize as she sat at the dining room table

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Speaker 1: of her color teacher, praying for a new beginning, was

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Speaker 1: that this was just the start of another troubling chapter,

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Speaker 1: one where she'd eventually tell the world about the abuse

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Speaker 1: she suffered and then spend the next fifteen years fighting

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Speaker 1: for justice. I'm Jemma Bath and This is True Crime

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Speaker 1: Conversations Amma mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes

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Speaker 1: by speaking to the people who know the most about them.

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Speaker 1: In three Mark Leifer was sentenced to fifteen years in

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Speaker 1: prison for eighteen counts of sexual abuse against Dussi and

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Speaker 1: her little sister, Ellie. She was acquitted of nine charges,

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Speaker 1: including five relating to their older sister, Nicole. Lifa was

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Speaker 1: the sister's former high school principal, and when whispers of

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Speaker 1: their allegations came to light in two thousand and eight,

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Speaker 1: she fled from her home in Melbourne to Israel before

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Speaker 1: any formal complaint could be made. It took seventy extraditioned

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Speaker 1: hearings and thirteen years to bring her back to Australia,

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Speaker 1: and finally last year, Dussy and her sisters were able

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Speaker 1: to breathe a sigh of relief. She was finally going

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Speaker 1: to pay for what she'd done. But Lifa wasn't the

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Speaker 1: only evil in their lives. School had previously been their

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Speaker 1: safe haven from the abuses they were experiencing at home,

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Speaker 1: Dussy shares in her new memoir in Bad Faith. In

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Speaker 1: their house, it was normal to go to bed hungry,

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Speaker 1: to be hit or slapped for minor wrongdoing, and to

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Speaker 1: have beloved toys stabbed and smashed in front of their eyes.

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Speaker 1: It was a childhood laced in fear and sadness, and

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Speaker 1: with Lifer finally behind bars, Dussie wants to share it

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Speaker 1: all because amongst the horrors she experienced, there have been

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Speaker 1: valuable life lessons since leaving her ultra orthodox community and

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Speaker 1: carving out a new free life for herself. So now

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Speaker 1: thirty six year old is ready to talk, Dussi Earlick

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Speaker 1: joins us. Now, Dussy, I want to start with your parents.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about the different worlds that they came from

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Speaker 1: and how they kind of got together.

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Speaker 2: So my mother grew up in Israel, and she grew

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Speaker 2: up until she was about ten years old and moved

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Speaker 2: to England in quite a traditional home with her father

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Speaker 2: learning to become a rabbi. And my father grew up

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Speaker 2: seven generation English in a very liberal, almost very culturally religious,

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Speaker 2: but not in any way that affected day to day life.

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Speaker 1: When they got together and started having you guys, because

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Speaker 1: there's seven siblings, they did kind of go down the

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Speaker 1: path of having a very religious way that they raised.

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Speaker 1: You tell us a bit about that, because would we

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Speaker 1: describe it as an orthodox Jewish lifestyle?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely. My parents sort of moved into their dust

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Speaker 2: community when I was very young, around two or three

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Speaker 2: years old. So by the time I have my first memories,

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Speaker 2: we were part of the Dust community, an ultra Orthodox,

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Speaker 2: very exclusive and insular lifestyle that basically we had rules

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Speaker 2: from morning to evening about how we lived our lives.

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Speaker 1: Can you give us some examples. You've said that there

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Speaker 1: was rules around everything. I know that there will be

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Speaker 1: a lot of non Jewish listeners, so even things like

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Speaker 1: Shabbat and kosher and stuff like that is kind of

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Speaker 1: alien to them. But in the ultra Orthodox community, those

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Speaker 1: traditions are taking one step further, aren't they. It's very strict.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think it's more not just about the rules,

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Speaker 2: but about how you do the rules. And we would

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Speaker 2: spend hours in school learning you know, how do we

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Speaker 2: get out of bed, what foot do we put out first?

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Speaker 2: How do we wash our hands as soon as we

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Speaker 2: get out of bed? You know how many times should

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Speaker 2: we wash our hands and what hands should we wash first?

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Speaker 2: So it went down to the most minutest details.

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Speaker 1: Wow, what about food? How is food treated in your

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Speaker 1: home in terms of what was kosher and what was not.

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Speaker 2: Food was governed by the Kosher religious authority in Melbourne,

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Speaker 2: so we were allowed to have any food and there's

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Speaker 2: a little book that would tell us what food we

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Speaker 2: were allowed to buy from supermarkets. There were a couple

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Speaker 2: of kosher Jewish shops that we would buy food from,

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Speaker 2: but we were quite limited in our diet.

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Speaker 1: So you were still going to coals and places around you.

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Speaker 1: You just were only shopping in certain niles, only.

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Speaker 2: Shopping for the things that we knew were allowed in

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Speaker 2: the Kosher Authority little book that we had. Now, if

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Speaker 2: you go to Coal's, actually you can see like a

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Speaker 2: little k with a circle around on little things in

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Speaker 2: the Supermark aisles, and you know that that's kosher. But

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Speaker 2: we didn't have that back then, so we would refer

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Speaker 2: to this little book and you'll tell us we can

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Speaker 2: buy this particular brand of corn fins, and that's what

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Speaker 2: we would buy.

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Speaker 1: I think what I find fascinating about the Adusk community

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Speaker 1: is that they are operating in such close proximity to

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Speaker 1: the rest of society around them. But it's such an

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Speaker 1: isolated world. But it's not like your streets and streets away,

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Speaker 1: your next door to people in Melbourne living a completely

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Speaker 1: different life.

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Speaker 2: As a young child, you know, I would see that

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Speaker 2: life around me, but it was so separate from me.

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Speaker 2: I didn't even think about that life. And of course,

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Speaker 2: as I got older and I started to notice more

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Speaker 2: how people around me are living, it was a question

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Speaker 2: of curiosity, but almost you know, we're more special. We

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Speaker 2: live a certain way of life, and you know, don't

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Speaker 2: even think about that way of life because it could

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Speaker 2: influence you and tear you away from this life of truth.

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Speaker 1: So you weren't yearning for what you saw in the

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Speaker 1: backyards of other kids' homes.

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Speaker 2: Not really. I think as a teenager walking down the

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Speaker 2: street in really thick tights and long skirts in the summer,

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Speaker 2: there would be a curiosity about what it would be

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Speaker 2: like to have the sun actually touched my skin in

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Speaker 2: some way. But I always had this sense that I

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Speaker 2: was more special, or my modesty was something that made

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Speaker 2: me more special.

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Speaker 1: I want to delve a bit more into your family.

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Speaker 1: We mentioned that there's seven siblings at the time when

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Speaker 1: you were becoming a young teenager who was living in

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Speaker 1: the house with you.

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Speaker 2: So I had my two sisters, Nicole and Ellie, and

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Speaker 2: my brothers Isaac and Ben.

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Speaker 1: And when you think back on your childhood and living

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Speaker 1: with your siblings and your parents, how does it make

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Speaker 1: you feel.

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Speaker 2: I try not to think about my childhood that much.

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Speaker 2: It brings up a lot of really difficult memories. And

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Speaker 2: all I remember is this all encompassing fear that I

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Speaker 2: used to feel as a child, and the feeling of

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Speaker 2: never ever feeling safe. I mean, love was such a

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Speaker 2: foreign concept to me. That wasn't It was just about

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Speaker 2: getting through the day and surviving.

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Speaker 1: I know that every day is obviously different, but what

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Speaker 1: did an average day look like for you as a kid,

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Speaker 1: because you had daily chores and school around all of that.

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Speaker 1: But what kind of rules were in place that your

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Speaker 1: parents kind of made you abide by?

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Speaker 2: Really, I was working from the minute I woke up,

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Speaker 2: and I would wake up very early and complete all

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Speaker 2: the chores that I had to complete in order to

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Speaker 2: get to school. I would go to school and have

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Speaker 2: our Jewish studies and English studies, and I'd come home

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Speaker 2: and see another whole list of chores that I needed

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Speaker 2: to do until very late at the night. And all

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Speaker 2: the time there was this fear that my mother would

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Speaker 2: be incredibly angry or she would blow up in some way,

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Speaker 2: And there was this constant tension that was felt all

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Speaker 2: the time.

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Speaker 1: What kinds of things would she get angry about?

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Speaker 2: No rhyme or reason for any of her anger outputs,

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Speaker 2: at least what we felt as children, because one day

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Speaker 2: something would be fine, and then the next day that

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Speaker 2: would be something that was terribly wrong. So it was

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Speaker 2: very hard to understand what I was doing wrong. And

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Speaker 2: I always thought that I was a good child, or

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Speaker 2: I tried to be a good child. I felt like

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Speaker 2: I was an incredibly bad child because I was constantly

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Speaker 2: being told off and beaten.

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Speaker 1: Was it for things like not completing a chore to

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Speaker 1: standards like were you just doing things like laundry and cooking?

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Speaker 1: And she just wasn't happy with how you delivered those chores.

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Speaker 2: It was if I didn't do it fast enough, I

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Speaker 2: didn't do it well enough, or I spoke to her

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Speaker 2: with the wrong tone. And I would modulate in my

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Speaker 2: tone so that I was as submissive as possible, but

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Speaker 2: still somehow that was seen as disrespectful. So it was

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Speaker 2: nothing that I could really understand that I was doing.

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Speaker 1: And what were the punishments if she was angry at you?

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Speaker 2: The punishments often involve physical abuse. There was a lot

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Speaker 2: of verbal abuse and being told that I'm worthless or nothing,

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Speaker 2: or I don't deserve to live. There was a lot

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Speaker 2: of food withdrawal, and there were many times that my

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Speaker 2: mother would try and pit my siblings against me so

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Speaker 2: that they would join in with her abuse. And of

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Speaker 2: course at times my siblings had to do that, and

219
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Speaker 2: they were forced to do that, but as we got older,

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Speaker 2: we learned to apologize to each other after that.

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Speaker 1: I want to focus a bit more on the food withdrawal,

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Speaker 1: because obviously food is essential for life, and it's such

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Speaker 1: a unique punishment. How did it manifest for you? Where

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Speaker 1: did you get food? Because you would deny dinner a

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Speaker 1: lot of the time, weren't you.

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Speaker 2: I just remember being starving all of my childhood, and

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Speaker 2: I think when I speak to my siblings, they say

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Speaker 2: they remember that, this constant sense of never feeling full

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Speaker 2: and always being hungry, and never certain that your next

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Speaker 2: meal was guaranteed.

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Speaker 1: And there were times where you were denied the toilet even.

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Speaker 2: I write about this in the book about when we

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Speaker 2: were young children and we weren't allowed to come downstairs

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Speaker 2: once we had been sent to bed, and there was

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Speaker 2: no toilet upstairs. And this was a constant issue for

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Speaker 2: us because a lot of times we would drink to

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Speaker 2: quell that hole in our stomach and not being able

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Speaker 2: to go to the bathroom was incredibly difficult.

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Speaker 1: When you look back at that in particular as an adult,

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Speaker 1: are you shocked at some of the stuff that you

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Speaker 1: and your siblings endured and survived.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. I think having my own child and realizing the

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Speaker 2: love and the desperate need to protect her, I couldn't

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Speaker 2: imagine going to that extent to hurt someone so vulnerable.

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Speaker 1: You write as well in a few instances about your

246
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Speaker 1: siblings or members of your family being banished, being banished

247
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Speaker 1: from the house, or the community or the religion. Was

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Speaker 1: that a threat that was always hanging above you? And

249
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Speaker 1: when did it happen in certain instances.

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Speaker 2: Again, there's no real reason why it happened, but my

251
00:14:13,102 --> 00:14:15,662
Speaker 2: mother would choose one of us. And my memories are

252
00:14:15,662 --> 00:14:18,422
Speaker 2: more around my younger brothers because a lot of times

253
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Speaker 2: I disassociated from when that happened to me. But at

254
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Speaker 2: some point my mother would just decide that there was

255
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Speaker 2: one child that didn't deserve to be a part of

256
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Speaker 2: the family anymore, and they were banished to some place where,

257
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Speaker 2: you know, we had a knowledge of this small you

258
00:14:32,942 --> 00:14:35,862
Speaker 2: know this four to eight streets around our community, and

259
00:14:35,862 --> 00:14:37,982
Speaker 2: they would be taken outside of our community, and to

260
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Speaker 2: us that was the absolute biggest threat, that this person

261
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Speaker 2: was not just going to be a part of our family,

262
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Speaker 2: but no longer a part of our faith than our community.

263
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Speaker 1: So they were dropped somewhere and then eventually what picked

264
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Speaker 1: up or just left there for hours, days.

265
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Speaker 2: Definitely hours. My memory is a little bit vague, but

266
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Speaker 2: I do remember when my younger brother be sent off

267
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Speaker 2: to a park or something outside of the community. I

268
00:15:06,102 --> 00:15:09,022
Speaker 2: would sit there and beg my mother to allow my

269
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Speaker 2: father to go and pick him up, and it would

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Speaker 2: be hours and hours of worrying about him.

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Speaker 1: Are there any happy memories from your childhood.

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Speaker 2: That's a very difficult one to answer, unfortunately. Also, that's

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Speaker 2: not how trauma works that you do remember. You know,

274
00:15:26,662 --> 00:15:30,222
Speaker 2: you end up remembering the most traumatic memories. But there

275
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Speaker 2: were times that we went away on day trips or holidays.

276
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Speaker 2: But again, that all pervasive fear was always underlying everything

277
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Speaker 2: that we did. And I think the sense of happiness,

278
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Speaker 2: especially as a teenager, came from when my siblings and

279
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Speaker 2: I would ban together almost in the sense of rebellion

280
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Speaker 2: and support one another.

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Speaker 1: This might be a heavy question, but do you remember

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Speaker 1: how old you were, or when you first started thinking

283
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Speaker 1: about death.

284
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Speaker 2: I was very young when I was thinking about death.

285
00:16:03,302 --> 00:16:07,702
Speaker 2: I was incredibly young. I couldn't imagine any other way

286
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Speaker 2: of getting out of the amount of pain and and

287
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Speaker 2: fear that I was living every day.

288
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Speaker 1: We've spoken about your mum, but you do write in

289
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Speaker 1: your memoir about feeling unsafe with your dad and not understanding.

290
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Speaker 1: Why can you tell me about when that started? If

291
00:16:24,942 --> 00:16:25,782
Speaker 1: you feel comfortable.

292
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Speaker 2: That's still something I'm really working on. A lot of

293
00:16:29,222 --> 00:16:32,542
Speaker 2: those memories only came back after my father passed away

294
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Speaker 2: in twenty nineteen, so that's still something that I'm still

295
00:16:37,142 --> 00:16:37,782
Speaker 2: working through.

296
00:16:38,982 --> 00:16:42,702
Speaker 1: I want to talk about by mitzvah for our non

297
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Speaker 1: Jewish listeners. Can you explain firstly what that is and

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00:16:45,942 --> 00:16:48,982
Speaker 1: what it was for your community when you were younger.

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Speaker 2: So abut mitzvah as a girl is when you turn twelve,

300
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Speaker 2: when you've become responsible for your own sins. Pretty much so,

301
00:16:58,062 --> 00:17:01,342
Speaker 2: before twelve, you're considered in a way a pure soul,

302
00:17:01,382 --> 00:17:04,822
Speaker 2: and your parents are responsible for your sins, and when

303
00:17:04,862 --> 00:17:08,182
Speaker 2: you turn twelve, you are the responsible one, and anything

304
00:17:08,222 --> 00:17:10,982
Speaker 2: that you do against God that's on you, no longer

305
00:17:11,022 --> 00:17:11,702
Speaker 2: on your parents.

306
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Speaker 1: And in the adusk community. Were there certain things that

307
00:17:16,422 --> 00:17:19,462
Speaker 1: you were now allowed to do or not do once

308
00:17:19,542 --> 00:17:21,222
Speaker 1: you became of age, so.

309
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Speaker 2: To speak, or as a girl in the dust community,

310
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Speaker 2: my life became more limited as I turned twelve. I

311
00:17:28,622 --> 00:17:31,102
Speaker 2: wasn't allowed to sing anymore in the presence of a man.

312
00:17:31,182 --> 00:17:34,582
Speaker 2: I wasn't allowed to ride a bike anymore because that

313
00:17:34,662 --> 00:17:38,102
Speaker 2: wasn't modest. There were certain rules that came into place

314
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Speaker 2: when I was seen as the age of maturity, which

315
00:17:40,662 --> 00:17:43,422
Speaker 2: is twelve years old. That meant that I could no

316
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Speaker 2: longer engage in certain practices because it wouldn't be modest anymore.

317
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Speaker 1: So is it a milestone that you, as a child

318
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Speaker 1: look forward to or you're not looking forward to it

319
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Speaker 1: because you're going to have all these freedoms kind of

320
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Speaker 1: taken away from you.

321
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Speaker 2: I didn't see them as freedoms being taken away in

322
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Speaker 2: a way. I saw it, I'm growing older, so I'm

323
00:18:02,582 --> 00:18:04,302
Speaker 2: not allowed to sing in front of men because that

324
00:18:04,782 --> 00:18:08,062
Speaker 2: my voice is more special. There was that, but for

325
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Speaker 2: me personally, it was a terrifying time because I felt

326
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Speaker 2: I was this terrible girl and suddenly I was going

327
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Speaker 2: to be responsible for all of these sins and my

328
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Speaker 2: soul is going to turn black. I was utterly terrified.

329
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Speaker 1: There's something that happens to young girls when they're around twelve, thirteen, fourteen,

330
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Speaker 1: they start getting their period. Were you taught about that

331
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Speaker 1: around that time?

332
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Speaker 2: Around that time is the first time that I heard

333
00:18:31,902 --> 00:18:35,062
Speaker 2: about it. And I was told it was because of

334
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Speaker 2: the sin of women that I would be bleeding once

335
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Speaker 2: a month, and that was pretty much all that I

336
00:18:39,742 --> 00:18:42,342
Speaker 2: was told about it. And I remember going to my

337
00:18:42,422 --> 00:18:45,302
Speaker 2: older sister Nicole and just saying to her, you know

338
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Speaker 2: what happens. What are you supposed to do? And she

339
00:18:47,222 --> 00:18:49,222
Speaker 2: showed me what a pad was, and she said, you know,

340
00:18:49,302 --> 00:18:51,102
Speaker 2: this is what you have to do, and you know

341
00:18:51,182 --> 00:18:53,022
Speaker 2: when you need them, you need to ask a father

342
00:18:53,142 --> 00:18:54,822
Speaker 2: to go and get them from a supermarket. But I

343
00:18:54,982 --> 00:18:57,182
Speaker 2: just very quietly tell him that this is something that's

344
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Speaker 2: very embarrassing. And it was something that was very very secretive.

345
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Speaker 1: What about I mean, I know when I was thirteen,

346
00:19:04,422 --> 00:19:06,302
Speaker 1: it kind of was all rolled into one. It was

347
00:19:06,662 --> 00:19:09,902
Speaker 1: menstruation talking about that, it was puberty, and it was

348
00:19:09,942 --> 00:19:13,742
Speaker 1: also a very basic but sex education. Were you given

349
00:19:13,782 --> 00:19:16,062
Speaker 1: that when you were a teenager or when you were

350
00:19:16,062 --> 00:19:17,102
Speaker 1: turning into a young woman?

351
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Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, not. That was all that I was told

352
00:19:20,102 --> 00:19:23,142
Speaker 2: about periods, and I think that was my education until

353
00:19:23,262 --> 00:19:27,382
Speaker 2: just before I got married and met my now ex husband.

354
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Speaker 1: You and your siblings went to a dust Israel school.

355
00:19:31,822 --> 00:19:35,822
Speaker 1: It was within your community. What was the school like?

356
00:19:35,942 --> 00:19:37,542
Speaker 1: Did you like going to school and what did you

357
00:19:37,622 --> 00:19:38,062
Speaker 1: learn there?

358
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Speaker 2: As a young Chrial, school was my safe place, and

359
00:19:42,582 --> 00:19:44,782
Speaker 2: I loved going to school. It was a chance to

360
00:19:44,822 --> 00:19:47,902
Speaker 2: get out of home and to learn, and I loved learning.

361
00:19:48,462 --> 00:19:51,142
Speaker 2: We spent a majority of our day learning Jewish studies

362
00:19:51,222 --> 00:19:53,502
Speaker 2: and learning how to perform all the things that we

363
00:19:53,502 --> 00:19:56,782
Speaker 2: were expected to perform, and how to support the men

364
00:19:57,022 --> 00:19:59,222
Speaker 2: in what they had to perform, and what our role

365
00:19:59,382 --> 00:20:02,502
Speaker 2: was as a Jewish woman. And then we had some

366
00:20:02,582 --> 00:20:05,302
Speaker 2: classes in English and math and other topics, but we

367
00:20:05,382 --> 00:20:09,062
Speaker 2: had absolutely no regard for those topics. We did not

368
00:20:09,142 --> 00:20:12,622
Speaker 2: respect the teachers. Now, looking back at that, I feel

369
00:20:12,662 --> 00:20:15,582
Speaker 2: incredibly bad for the way that we used to treat

370
00:20:15,582 --> 00:20:17,382
Speaker 2: the teachers that would come in and to teach us

371
00:20:17,422 --> 00:20:19,622
Speaker 2: English and maths, because we would play up and we

372
00:20:19,742 --> 00:20:21,902
Speaker 2: just had no respect for them whatsoever. I mean, we

373
00:20:21,902 --> 00:20:24,022
Speaker 2: didn't see the point of them. Why did we need

374
00:20:24,062 --> 00:20:26,382
Speaker 2: to learn English and maths when our job as a

375
00:20:26,422 --> 00:20:28,662
Speaker 2: Jewish woman was to grow up, get married and have children,

376
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Speaker 2: and it didn't make sense to us.

377
00:20:30,582 --> 00:20:35,102
Speaker 1: So did you have you know, science, art, drama, any

378
00:20:35,142 --> 00:20:37,422
Speaker 1: of those kinds of subjects that you would see in

379
00:20:37,622 --> 00:20:38,622
Speaker 1: other Melbourne schools.

380
00:20:39,582 --> 00:20:42,062
Speaker 2: We did have science, and we did have art, but

381
00:20:42,142 --> 00:20:45,422
Speaker 2: again in art, you know, we were preparing stuff for

382
00:20:45,462 --> 00:20:47,942
Speaker 2: the Jewish holidays, or you know, in science we had

383
00:20:47,942 --> 00:20:51,542
Speaker 2: a quite limited curriculum because a lot of things we

384
00:20:51,542 --> 00:20:52,342
Speaker 2: weren't allowed to know.

385
00:20:53,942 --> 00:20:57,382
Speaker 1: I want to start talking about Mark Laifer. When do

386
00:20:57,502 --> 00:20:59,782
Speaker 1: you remember her starting at the school and for what

387
00:20:59,942 --> 00:21:02,222
Speaker 1: reason did she become principal.

388
00:21:03,542 --> 00:21:07,182
Speaker 2: I recall her coming to Australia to be the head

389
00:21:07,382 --> 00:21:09,582
Speaker 2: of the seminary, the girls seminary, which is what we

390
00:21:09,662 --> 00:21:13,342
Speaker 2: call a year eleven twelve, and very quickly she became

391
00:21:13,622 --> 00:21:17,502
Speaker 2: known in the community as this brilliant woman who could

392
00:21:17,582 --> 00:21:21,222
Speaker 2: just do everything and had a lot of charisma and

393
00:21:21,302 --> 00:21:25,262
Speaker 2: people were just drawn towards and shortly after she came,

394
00:21:25,382 --> 00:21:27,062
Speaker 2: I think it was a year or two, she became

395
00:21:27,102 --> 00:21:31,422
Speaker 2: the principal of the entire girls school. And I remember

396
00:21:31,502 --> 00:21:33,502
Speaker 2: looking up at her and thinking that she isn't this

397
00:21:33,582 --> 00:21:36,622
Speaker 2: amazing woman who seemed to just have this way of

398
00:21:36,662 --> 00:21:40,382
Speaker 2: just dealing with everyone around her that everyone respected and adored,

399
00:21:40,742 --> 00:21:44,902
Speaker 2: and having grown up in a community where males were

400
00:21:44,942 --> 00:21:47,942
Speaker 2: always our leaders, to have a woman almost in that

401
00:21:47,982 --> 00:21:51,582
Speaker 2: position that you know, even men would listen to was

402
00:21:51,622 --> 00:21:53,102
Speaker 2: something that I had never seen.

403
00:21:54,102 --> 00:21:56,902
Speaker 1: So it was quite exciting for you. Like you idolized her.

404
00:21:57,142 --> 00:22:00,542
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely completely idolized her.

405
00:22:01,262 --> 00:22:04,662
Speaker 1: You write about her having I think you call them

406
00:22:04,662 --> 00:22:07,502
Speaker 1: special girls, or she used to call them special girls.

407
00:22:07,822 --> 00:22:10,742
Speaker 1: What did that mean, especially before you were in the

408
00:22:10,822 --> 00:22:13,102
Speaker 1: kind of inner circle. What did that look like from

409
00:22:13,102 --> 00:22:13,662
Speaker 1: the outside.

410
00:22:15,102 --> 00:22:17,982
Speaker 2: Her favorite girls were girls that she would pull out

411
00:22:18,022 --> 00:22:20,742
Speaker 2: of class to ask to go run errands for her,

412
00:22:20,902 --> 00:22:24,782
Speaker 2: or to go give messages to other teachers, or to

413
00:22:24,822 --> 00:22:26,942
Speaker 2: just sit in halfuse and speak to her. So that

414
00:22:27,062 --> 00:22:28,702
Speaker 2: was seen as a huge privilege.

415
00:22:29,582 --> 00:22:32,062
Speaker 1: So you wanted in basically, Oh.

416
00:22:31,862 --> 00:22:34,542
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I could think of nothing that I wanted more

417
00:22:34,582 --> 00:22:35,342
Speaker 2: at that age.

418
00:22:35,542 --> 00:22:38,302
Speaker 1: Do you remember when you did start becoming a special

419
00:22:38,982 --> 00:22:41,982
Speaker 1: favorite girl? And did it start innocently at first? Like

420
00:22:42,102 --> 00:22:43,382
Speaker 1: was it just running errands?

421
00:22:44,102 --> 00:22:46,622
Speaker 2: It was? It started very innocently. Or I called her

422
00:22:46,982 --> 00:22:49,262
Speaker 2: pulling me aside one day and saying, you know, she

423
00:22:49,342 --> 00:22:51,662
Speaker 2: knew about my home life, and she wanted to help me,

424
00:22:52,542 --> 00:22:54,862
Speaker 2: and from that point forward, I felt a sense of

425
00:22:54,942 --> 00:22:57,262
Speaker 2: connection to her. She was there to support me, and

426
00:22:57,542 --> 00:22:59,902
Speaker 2: you know, you have those fantasies as a young child,

427
00:22:59,942 --> 00:23:03,862
Speaker 2: maybe this person can save you. And I would run

428
00:23:03,982 --> 00:23:06,742
Speaker 2: errands for her. I would be kept back sometimes from

429
00:23:06,822 --> 00:23:09,382
Speaker 2: schall excursions to help her out in the school, and

430
00:23:09,422 --> 00:23:12,102
Speaker 2: it was all very exciting. I felt very special.

431
00:23:12,742 --> 00:23:15,222
Speaker 1: How long did it take to change or was there

432
00:23:15,262 --> 00:23:16,502
Speaker 1: a certain turning point.

433
00:23:17,182 --> 00:23:21,262
Speaker 2: It happened quite quickly. She asked my mother to give

434
00:23:21,302 --> 00:23:24,262
Speaker 2: me private lessons and to come to the school on

435
00:23:24,382 --> 00:23:27,742
Speaker 2: Sunday and have lessons with her. And from the very

436
00:23:27,782 --> 00:23:31,342
Speaker 2: first lesson, she started almost touching me on my knees

437
00:23:31,382 --> 00:23:34,542
Speaker 2: and on my thighs. And I was completely innocent at

438
00:23:34,582 --> 00:23:36,382
Speaker 2: the time, and she was known around the school to

439
00:23:36,382 --> 00:23:39,582
Speaker 2: be more touchy feely, and coming from a culture where

440
00:23:39,982 --> 00:23:44,102
Speaker 2: nobody touched anybody else, touch was incredibly rare. We never

441
00:23:44,222 --> 00:23:46,822
Speaker 2: hugged our friends in that kind of way, or it

442
00:23:46,942 --> 00:23:50,222
Speaker 2: was oh, this is an Israeli quirk of hers. I

443
00:23:50,262 --> 00:23:53,022
Speaker 2: had already become accustomed to this idea that she was

444
00:23:53,062 --> 00:23:57,262
Speaker 2: someone that touched other people in an innocent way at

445
00:23:57,262 --> 00:23:57,662
Speaker 2: the time.

446
00:23:58,462 --> 00:24:01,182
Speaker 1: And also you had a mum who wasn't overly well,

447
00:24:01,662 --> 00:24:04,422
Speaker 1: she wasn't affectionate, and as a young girl, I'm imagining

448
00:24:04,462 --> 00:24:08,742
Speaker 1: that you probably desired motherly affection in that way.

449
00:24:09,222 --> 00:24:13,302
Speaker 2: Oh. Absolutely. The first time that she touched me on

450
00:24:13,382 --> 00:24:16,302
Speaker 2: my skin and her telling me that she was like

451
00:24:16,342 --> 00:24:20,462
Speaker 2: a mother to me, those words are something that i'll, unfortunately,

452
00:24:20,542 --> 00:24:23,582
Speaker 2: i'll never forget because it meant everything to my young self.

453
00:24:25,222 --> 00:24:26,342
Speaker 1: How did it escalate?

454
00:24:29,702 --> 00:24:35,342
Speaker 2: It escalated quite quickly once she understood that I wasn't

455
00:24:35,382 --> 00:24:39,982
Speaker 2: going to once she I don't know what she understood. Actually,

456
00:24:40,862 --> 00:24:43,742
Speaker 2: once she realized or I realized there was nothing I

457
00:24:43,742 --> 00:24:45,502
Speaker 2: could do when there was no one I could tell,

458
00:24:46,342 --> 00:24:50,502
Speaker 2: I think she just continued progressing and touching me more

459
00:24:50,542 --> 00:24:50,982
Speaker 2: and more.

460
00:24:52,182 --> 00:24:54,782
Speaker 1: What did she tell you in those moments or did

461
00:24:54,822 --> 00:24:55,742
Speaker 1: she say anything?

462
00:24:56,982 --> 00:24:59,422
Speaker 2: She used to tell me that this is love and

463
00:24:59,542 --> 00:25:02,902
Speaker 2: this is what love means, and not having absolutely any

464
00:25:02,982 --> 00:25:05,902
Speaker 2: understanding of love. I believed her for a long time.

465
00:25:06,462 --> 00:25:14,342
Speaker 1: I believed her once the touch turned from innocent to abuse,

466
00:25:15,822 --> 00:25:18,822
Speaker 1: did you know in your mind or in your body

467
00:25:19,342 --> 00:25:20,742
Speaker 1: that what was happening was wrong?

468
00:25:22,662 --> 00:25:25,982
Speaker 2: I had some innate understanding that this was incredibly wrong,

469
00:25:26,302 --> 00:25:29,022
Speaker 2: but not any understanding of why it was wrong or

470
00:25:29,102 --> 00:25:33,102
Speaker 2: how it was wrong. But my body used my survival system,

471
00:25:33,182 --> 00:25:36,782
Speaker 2: and I would disassociate and just disappear from the room

472
00:25:36,822 --> 00:25:40,262
Speaker 2: when she was abusing me, to the point that I

473
00:25:40,262 --> 00:25:43,942
Speaker 2: would just be completely frozen and still and at times

474
00:25:44,022 --> 00:25:46,822
Speaker 2: just watching her from above, knowing that she's doing this

475
00:25:46,822 --> 00:25:48,742
Speaker 2: to my body, but I'm not in that body.

476
00:25:50,462 --> 00:25:55,062
Speaker 1: So they started when you were around sixteen. How frequent

477
00:25:55,142 --> 00:25:56,222
Speaker 1: did it become?

478
00:25:57,582 --> 00:26:00,542
Speaker 2: Sometimes it would be several times a week, and then

479
00:26:00,622 --> 00:26:04,142
Speaker 2: sometimes not for a few weeks. And then I would

480
00:26:04,182 --> 00:26:07,182
Speaker 2: notice other girls disappearing into her office and her door

481
00:26:07,222 --> 00:26:09,462
Speaker 2: closed and the blinds down, and I knew that there

482
00:26:09,502 --> 00:26:11,422
Speaker 2: was someone in else's in there, and now I knew

483
00:26:11,462 --> 00:26:14,262
Speaker 2: what happened in there, and there would almost be a

484
00:26:14,302 --> 00:26:17,022
Speaker 2: sense of relief that that wasn't me. I couldn't think

485
00:26:17,062 --> 00:26:17,502
Speaker 2: part of that.

486
00:26:18,342 --> 00:26:22,502
Speaker 1: But you didn't know about your sisters and their experiences

487
00:26:22,622 --> 00:26:23,262
Speaker 1: at that point.

488
00:26:23,822 --> 00:26:26,622
Speaker 2: Not at that point. I had witnessed her climb into

489
00:26:26,622 --> 00:26:29,822
Speaker 2: my sister's bed one year in camp, and I had suspected,

490
00:26:29,982 --> 00:26:32,142
Speaker 2: but because we didn't have the words to speak about it.

491
00:26:32,182 --> 00:26:34,502
Speaker 2: The next morning, I just gave this look to my sister,

492
00:26:34,582 --> 00:26:36,302
Speaker 2: and my sister gave this look back to me and

493
00:26:36,342 --> 00:26:39,142
Speaker 2: it was some sort of understanding, and that was it.

494
00:26:39,222 --> 00:26:41,782
Speaker 2: We never spoke about it. We just didn't know how to.

495
00:26:43,182 --> 00:26:45,462
Speaker 1: When you say you didn't have the words to speak

496
00:26:45,502 --> 00:26:48,782
Speaker 1: about it. I found this fascinating that you write about

497
00:26:49,142 --> 00:26:51,542
Speaker 1: not even knowing what the word vagina was.

498
00:26:52,102 --> 00:26:54,422
Speaker 2: Well, I didn't know I had a vagina, let alone

499
00:26:54,502 --> 00:26:55,422
Speaker 2: a name for one.

500
00:26:55,782 --> 00:26:57,902
Speaker 1: So what were you taught about that part of your body?

501
00:26:58,822 --> 00:27:02,302
Speaker 2: I assume that the same place that I urinated from

502
00:27:02,422 --> 00:27:04,102
Speaker 2: was the same place that I got my period, was

503
00:27:04,142 --> 00:27:06,062
Speaker 2: the same place that she was abusing me. I just

504
00:27:06,062 --> 00:27:10,342
Speaker 2: didn't understand that there was more than one place down there.

505
00:27:10,462 --> 00:27:14,502
Speaker 1: And the idea of consent and abuse and stuff like that,

506
00:27:14,502 --> 00:27:17,302
Speaker 1: that just wasn't something that was in your world.

507
00:27:18,182 --> 00:27:21,102
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely not. It was never spoken about.

508
00:27:22,462 --> 00:27:25,462
Speaker 1: Did it stop after you finished school?

509
00:27:26,542 --> 00:27:29,782
Speaker 2: Well, I went straight from finishing school to becoming a

510
00:27:29,822 --> 00:27:33,502
Speaker 2: student teacher under missus Lapher, and it didn't actually stop

511
00:27:33,582 --> 00:27:36,822
Speaker 2: until I was out of the country and living away

512
00:27:36,822 --> 00:27:37,222
Speaker 2: from her.

513
00:27:40,382 --> 00:27:44,022
Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime Conversations with me Jemma Bath.

514
00:27:44,702 --> 00:27:47,702
Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Dussy Erlick about her life in the

515
00:27:47,742 --> 00:27:51,062
Speaker 1: adask community and the abuse she suffered at the hands

516
00:27:51,102 --> 00:28:02,142
Speaker 1: of her school principal, Malkalaifer. You got married when you

517
00:28:02,142 --> 00:28:06,662
Speaker 1: were nineteen, which is young in most people's eyes, but

518
00:28:06,702 --> 00:28:10,222
Speaker 1: it's actually on the older side for your community, isn't it.

519
00:28:10,502 --> 00:28:13,142
Speaker 2: Yeah. I had friends getting married at seventeen and eighteen,

520
00:28:13,222 --> 00:28:15,942
Speaker 2: and by the time I got engaged when I was eighteen,

521
00:28:15,982 --> 00:28:17,702
Speaker 2: and I was so relieved because I knew if I

522
00:28:17,702 --> 00:28:21,422
Speaker 2: turned nineteen twenty and I hadn't been matched up with

523
00:28:21,462 --> 00:28:24,582
Speaker 2: someone by the matchmaker, that meant that I wasn't seen

524
00:28:24,702 --> 00:28:27,262
Speaker 2: of being worthy of marriage, or there was some problem

525
00:28:27,342 --> 00:28:29,022
Speaker 2: or issue with me, and people would look at me

526
00:28:29,062 --> 00:28:30,822
Speaker 2: in that way. So it was a big fear of

527
00:28:30,862 --> 00:28:33,262
Speaker 2: mine that I get married as soon as possible.

528
00:28:34,182 --> 00:28:36,102
Speaker 1: So the idea that you were going to be in

529
00:28:36,102 --> 00:28:38,662
Speaker 1: an arranged marriage, that wasn't nerve wracking to you, that

530
00:28:38,702 --> 00:28:40,662
Speaker 1: you wouldn't know this person before you married them.

531
00:28:42,022 --> 00:28:44,822
Speaker 2: That was the way that all my friends were meeting

532
00:28:44,822 --> 00:28:47,942
Speaker 2: their husbands. It wasn't strange. I mean, I spent eight

533
00:28:47,982 --> 00:28:50,742
Speaker 2: hours over a kind of a week or week and

534
00:28:50,742 --> 00:28:54,062
Speaker 2: a half with my now ex husband, but you know,

535
00:28:54,142 --> 00:28:57,502
Speaker 2: some of my friends spent maybe an hour, so eight

536
00:28:57,502 --> 00:28:59,062
Speaker 2: hours was considered a long time.

537
00:29:00,702 --> 00:29:03,102
Speaker 1: I want to talk about color. Is that how I

538
00:29:03,142 --> 00:29:04,702
Speaker 1: pronounce it? Bridal lessons?

539
00:29:04,982 --> 00:29:05,942
Speaker 2: Yeah, color lessons.

540
00:29:07,222 --> 00:29:10,062
Speaker 1: That seems to have been the time when you started

541
00:29:10,062 --> 00:29:14,662
Speaker 1: to properly learn about sex and sex education and all

542
00:29:14,702 --> 00:29:17,022
Speaker 1: of that kind of stuff. Do you remember your teacher

543
00:29:17,102 --> 00:29:19,622
Speaker 1: sitting you down and kind of telling you what sex was.

544
00:29:20,382 --> 00:29:23,142
Speaker 2: I remember her sitting down and drawing a picture for

545
00:29:23,342 --> 00:29:26,022
Speaker 2: me and saying, this is what you have down there,

546
00:29:26,022 --> 00:29:29,342
Speaker 2: and this is what a man has, and you need

547
00:29:29,342 --> 00:29:31,702
Speaker 2: to find this place, and you need to do these

548
00:29:31,822 --> 00:29:35,342
Speaker 2: rituals and find this place in order for you to

549
00:29:35,382 --> 00:29:37,942
Speaker 2: get married. And it was such a surprise to me.

550
00:29:38,022 --> 00:29:42,262
Speaker 2: I just couldn't fathom this idea that this is how

551
00:29:42,942 --> 00:29:45,822
Speaker 2: children are born into this world. I just absolutely could

552
00:29:45,822 --> 00:29:46,382
Speaker 2: not fathom it.

553
00:29:46,742 --> 00:29:48,662
Speaker 1: How did you think children were brought into the world.

554
00:29:49,062 --> 00:29:51,222
Speaker 2: I don't remember how I used to think about it.

555
00:29:51,702 --> 00:29:54,222
Speaker 2: I knew it or something between a man and a woman.

556
00:29:54,342 --> 00:29:56,782
Speaker 2: I just didn't know what that something was or have

557
00:29:56,942 --> 00:29:59,742
Speaker 2: any idea. Couldn't imagine what that thing was.

558
00:30:01,142 --> 00:30:05,262
Speaker 1: What were the rules between a married couple in your

559
00:30:05,262 --> 00:30:08,502
Speaker 1: community in terms of sex once you were married?

560
00:30:09,742 --> 00:30:13,822
Speaker 2: So is considered unclean when she has her period and

561
00:30:14,822 --> 00:30:18,302
Speaker 2: needs to be separated from her husband, and by separation,

562
00:30:18,942 --> 00:30:21,742
Speaker 2: you have the same rules before your husband in that

563
00:30:21,862 --> 00:30:24,062
Speaker 2: time as you would any other man in the community.

564
00:30:24,102 --> 00:30:26,502
Speaker 2: So you need to stay covered up, and you'll have

565
00:30:26,582 --> 00:30:29,222
Speaker 2: to have your hair covered even at home, and you

566
00:30:29,262 --> 00:30:32,222
Speaker 2: can't even pass anything to them because your hands might touch.

567
00:30:32,702 --> 00:30:35,502
Speaker 2: You have to have separate beds. And then for a

568
00:30:35,542 --> 00:30:37,822
Speaker 2: week after you've finished your period, you need to check

569
00:30:37,862 --> 00:30:41,222
Speaker 2: yourself twice a day, morning and evening to check that

570
00:30:41,262 --> 00:30:44,982
Speaker 2: you actually have stopped pleading. And by checking it would

571
00:30:44,982 --> 00:30:47,062
Speaker 2: be wrapping a little white cloth around my finger and

572
00:30:47,142 --> 00:30:51,982
Speaker 2: actually properly checking that there was no blood. And once

573
00:30:52,102 --> 00:30:55,262
Speaker 2: I had ascertained that I was completely clean, for seven days,

574
00:30:55,302 --> 00:30:57,582
Speaker 2: and if something happened in those seven days, you would

575
00:30:57,582 --> 00:31:00,502
Speaker 2: have to start again. And during those seven days, and

576
00:31:00,502 --> 00:31:02,022
Speaker 2: I don't really write about this in the book, but

577
00:31:02,062 --> 00:31:04,822
Speaker 2: we had to wear white underwear and have white sheets,

578
00:31:04,902 --> 00:31:08,102
Speaker 2: so if anything happened, we would have an understanding that

579
00:31:08,142 --> 00:31:10,102
Speaker 2: we weren't clean yet and we would have to start

580
00:31:10,502 --> 00:31:13,422
Speaker 2: account again. And once you had been clean, then there

581
00:31:13,502 --> 00:31:16,942
Speaker 2: was a ritual bath where you dipped yourself in three

582
00:31:16,982 --> 00:31:20,142
Speaker 2: times naked and watched by someone to make sure that

583
00:31:20,182 --> 00:31:22,822
Speaker 2: it was kosher and you were ready for your.

584
00:31:22,742 --> 00:31:26,542
Speaker 1: Husband, and so once you knew about all of these processes,

585
00:31:26,582 --> 00:31:28,462
Speaker 1: because you would have only learned about this once you

586
00:31:28,582 --> 00:31:31,862
Speaker 1: actually started having these bridal lessons, right, Yeah.

587
00:31:31,902 --> 00:31:34,822
Speaker 2: And I was so confused. I would check in with

588
00:31:34,862 --> 00:31:38,142
Speaker 2: my bridal teacher continuously in those first few months of marriage.

589
00:31:38,142 --> 00:31:41,182
Speaker 2: You know, what, if I'm doing something wrong and still

590
00:31:41,262 --> 00:31:43,582
Speaker 2: unclean in some way, and then my husband is with

591
00:31:43,662 --> 00:31:46,022
Speaker 2: me and am unclean, that's not me. That's my sin,

592
00:31:46,222 --> 00:31:48,702
Speaker 2: and that's a huge sin. Any child that's born you

593
00:31:48,942 --> 00:31:50,982
Speaker 2: from that would be illegitimate.

594
00:31:51,502 --> 00:31:55,822
Speaker 1: Did those lessons also kind of get the cogs turning

595
00:31:55,862 --> 00:31:58,982
Speaker 1: in your brain a little bit more about your experiences

596
00:31:59,342 --> 00:31:59,902
Speaker 1: with Lifer?

597
00:32:00,662 --> 00:32:04,022
Speaker 2: Not really not at the time. At the time it

598
00:32:04,102 --> 00:32:08,022
Speaker 2: suddenly made sense, Oh, well that's where she's putting her hand,

599
00:32:08,502 --> 00:32:11,782
Speaker 2: and now that makes sense to me. But I still

600
00:32:11,822 --> 00:32:15,022
Speaker 2: didn't have any understanding of the abuse, that this was

601
00:32:15,222 --> 00:32:17,582
Speaker 2: what happened between a man and a wife in order

602
00:32:17,662 --> 00:32:19,982
Speaker 2: to have children. That was it. That was the breadth

603
00:32:20,022 --> 00:32:23,902
Speaker 2: of my understanding. And I didn't then equate that with well,

604
00:32:23,942 --> 00:32:27,142
Speaker 2: that's sex and therefore what she's doing. You know, I

605
00:32:27,142 --> 00:32:28,862
Speaker 2: didn't connect the dots at that stage.

606
00:32:29,702 --> 00:32:32,862
Speaker 1: You also spent your wedding night at her house.

607
00:32:34,222 --> 00:32:38,422
Speaker 2: Why she was overseas at the time. Her daughter was

608
00:32:38,462 --> 00:32:42,142
Speaker 2: getting married on the same day as mine and my

609
00:32:43,182 --> 00:32:46,182
Speaker 2: husband At the time, we were planning on living in

610
00:32:46,222 --> 00:32:50,062
Speaker 2: Melbourne for a month before we went to Israel, so

611
00:32:50,582 --> 00:32:53,822
Speaker 2: she offered her house to my parents. And I never

612
00:32:53,902 --> 00:32:56,662
Speaker 2: thought even how would I even say anything about why

613
00:32:56,742 --> 00:32:59,302
Speaker 2: I didn't want that to happen. I had so much

614
00:32:59,302 --> 00:33:02,182
Speaker 2: disassociation between the different parts of my life, I didn't

615
00:33:02,182 --> 00:33:03,342
Speaker 2: even think about saying.

616
00:33:03,142 --> 00:33:06,422
Speaker 1: Anything, So it wasn't particularly triggering for you.

617
00:33:07,022 --> 00:33:09,822
Speaker 2: I just remember waking up that first morning and just

618
00:33:09,822 --> 00:33:12,142
Speaker 2: figuring this and so freedom because I was finally out

619
00:33:12,142 --> 00:33:13,982
Speaker 2: of home and I could wake up at my own

620
00:33:13,982 --> 00:33:16,662
Speaker 2: time and not have to get out of bed and

621
00:33:16,702 --> 00:33:19,182
Speaker 2: do a whole list of chores. And the fact that

622
00:33:19,222 --> 00:33:21,542
Speaker 2: I was in the same bed that she had literally

623
00:33:21,662 --> 00:33:24,822
Speaker 2: raped me on weeks earlier, well, that was the extent

624
00:33:24,862 --> 00:33:27,422
Speaker 2: of my disassociation. I just didn't even think about it.

625
00:33:28,262 --> 00:33:31,342
Speaker 1: So marriage for you was a fresh start.

626
00:33:32,022 --> 00:33:35,342
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I saw it as my ticket out of home.

627
00:33:35,422 --> 00:33:38,462
Speaker 2: But also as I was married and I was joining,

628
00:33:39,102 --> 00:33:41,862
Speaker 2: you know, the next stage of women, I already a

629
00:33:41,982 --> 00:33:44,342
Speaker 2: mother soon, and I was doing my duty as a

630
00:33:44,382 --> 00:33:45,422
Speaker 2: person in this world.

631
00:33:46,902 --> 00:33:49,462
Speaker 1: Once you had been married and you're in Melbourne for

632
00:33:49,502 --> 00:33:53,062
Speaker 1: a month or so, you did move to Israel. Was

633
00:33:53,062 --> 00:33:56,262
Speaker 1: that a happier time for you, being, you know, physically

634
00:33:56,302 --> 00:33:58,942
Speaker 1: away from your mom, your family lifer?

635
00:33:59,942 --> 00:34:02,822
Speaker 2: It was for a short period of time, I think,

636
00:34:02,942 --> 00:34:05,582
Speaker 2: before the loneliness set in of being away from my

637
00:34:05,662 --> 00:34:08,742
Speaker 2: siblings and away from everyone that I knew, and not

638
00:34:08,862 --> 00:34:11,542
Speaker 2: speaking the language, and being in this foreign country that

639
00:34:11,662 --> 00:34:15,142
Speaker 2: has a very different culture to Australia and not getting pregnant.

640
00:34:15,422 --> 00:34:20,302
Speaker 2: My mental health difficulties started just piling on pretty quickly.

641
00:34:22,022 --> 00:34:26,062
Speaker 1: While you were over there. You did disclose what happened

642
00:34:26,062 --> 00:34:30,342
Speaker 1: to you to someone? How did that happen? Who did

643
00:34:30,382 --> 00:34:30,782
Speaker 1: you tell?

644
00:34:31,742 --> 00:34:34,302
Speaker 2: I think it kind of started with me having quite

645
00:34:34,302 --> 00:34:38,462
Speaker 2: a bit of difficulty getting pregnant and having access to

646
00:34:38,502 --> 00:34:42,982
Speaker 2: the Internet for the first time, looking up sexual websites

647
00:34:43,022 --> 00:34:45,222
Speaker 2: to try and understand what it was or what was

648
00:34:45,262 --> 00:34:48,702
Speaker 2: happening and why I wasn't getting pregnant, and just really

649
00:34:48,822 --> 00:34:51,262
Speaker 2: educating myself a little bit more about sex, but not

650
00:34:51,302 --> 00:34:53,702
Speaker 2: having any understanding of the Internet. I ended up in

651
00:34:53,742 --> 00:34:57,262
Speaker 2: some very shady places and that scared me. That scared

652
00:34:57,302 --> 00:35:00,342
Speaker 2: me terribly, and I had such a curiosity about it

653
00:35:00,382 --> 00:35:02,822
Speaker 2: as well, and that really scared me. So I ended

654
00:35:02,902 --> 00:35:06,742
Speaker 2: up going to Kana Rabinowitz to talk about this, to

655
00:35:06,782 --> 00:35:11,702
Speaker 2: talk about these dark, terrifying thoughts I was, and the

656
00:35:11,742 --> 00:35:16,662
Speaker 2: conversation very quickly moved to this doesn't make sense that

657
00:35:16,662 --> 00:35:19,422
Speaker 2: you're having these thoughts and this curiosity unless you have

658
00:35:19,542 --> 00:35:20,262
Speaker 2: been abused.

659
00:35:21,022 --> 00:35:23,422
Speaker 1: It took you a while to actually say her name, though,

660
00:35:23,502 --> 00:35:23,982
Speaker 1: didn't it.

661
00:35:24,822 --> 00:35:26,822
Speaker 2: I didn't want to. I didn't think that I would

662
00:35:26,862 --> 00:35:29,742
Speaker 2: ever have to. It was just I was just starting

663
00:35:29,782 --> 00:35:32,702
Speaker 2: to connect the dots that it was abuse because of

664
00:35:32,742 --> 00:35:36,182
Speaker 2: that education I was giving myself online and I was

665
00:35:36,382 --> 00:35:39,422
Speaker 2: just beginning to connect the dots and realizing that if

666
00:35:39,462 --> 00:35:43,462
Speaker 2: I said anything, the implications of that, and that was terrifying.

667
00:35:43,462 --> 00:35:45,342
Speaker 2: This is not something that we talk about, you know,

668
00:35:45,382 --> 00:35:47,582
Speaker 2: what would happen to me and my family if I

669
00:35:47,622 --> 00:35:50,862
Speaker 2: said something. I didn't want to say her name. I

670
00:35:50,862 --> 00:35:53,222
Speaker 2: didn't plan on saying her name, and I think when

671
00:35:53,262 --> 00:35:55,382
Speaker 2: Hanna Rabinowitz said that she would have to talk to

672
00:35:55,742 --> 00:35:57,582
Speaker 2: missus life and tell her that there was a teacher

673
00:35:57,582 --> 00:36:00,622
Speaker 2: in her school, I felt that I had to say something.

674
00:36:01,582 --> 00:36:04,462
Speaker 1: So you did tell her, and then word got back

675
00:36:04,502 --> 00:36:10,582
Speaker 1: to Melbourne How quickly did your allegations spread throughout the community.

676
00:36:11,262 --> 00:36:13,742
Speaker 2: Not very quickly at first, because it got back to

677
00:36:13,782 --> 00:36:17,462
Speaker 2: Melbourne and several rabbis were involved and asked about what

678
00:36:17,502 --> 00:36:20,062
Speaker 2: they should do with Lifa, And then I think was

679
00:36:20,102 --> 00:36:23,262
Speaker 2: it within a week or so, Lafa was leaving and

680
00:36:23,302 --> 00:36:26,022
Speaker 2: coming back to Israel, and that's really when the rest

681
00:36:26,022 --> 00:36:29,742
Speaker 2: of the community started talking about it and wondering who

682
00:36:29,782 --> 00:36:33,062
Speaker 2: it was and why this person had said anything, and

683
00:36:33,142 --> 00:36:35,422
Speaker 2: if it was really true, and to what extent was

684
00:36:35,422 --> 00:36:40,142
Speaker 2: it true, And those questions were everywhere. Everyone was talking

685
00:36:40,182 --> 00:36:44,102
Speaker 2: about it, and everybody pretty much quickly figured out that

686
00:36:44,142 --> 00:36:45,902
Speaker 2: it was me because they knew that it was someone

687
00:36:45,902 --> 00:36:48,702
Speaker 2: in Israel, a student, and at the time I was

688
00:36:48,902 --> 00:36:51,302
Speaker 2: really one of the only students living in Israel of

689
00:36:51,382 --> 00:36:54,422
Speaker 2: that age. I just remember my friend calling me up

690
00:36:54,622 --> 00:36:57,382
Speaker 2: and saying that she'd heard rumors and all these ridiculous

691
00:36:57,462 --> 00:36:59,902
Speaker 2: rumors about me, about why I had sent something like this,

692
00:37:00,062 --> 00:37:02,382
Speaker 2: that I was divorcing my husband, who at the time,

693
00:37:02,622 --> 00:37:04,742
Speaker 2: you know, we were very much together.

694
00:37:05,902 --> 00:37:08,502
Speaker 1: How did your sisters react. Did they start coming to

695
00:37:08,542 --> 00:37:10,942
Speaker 1: you and asking about the allegation as well.

696
00:37:11,662 --> 00:37:16,742
Speaker 2: I think my older sisters Dahlia and Tamar were incredibly shocked,

697
00:37:17,222 --> 00:37:21,582
Speaker 2: and especially Tama. She had seen the relationship between me

698
00:37:21,782 --> 00:37:24,582
Speaker 2: and Missus Laifer, she had seen that closeness. She worked

699
00:37:24,582 --> 00:37:26,182
Speaker 2: at the school, you know, she knew missus life. She

700
00:37:26,222 --> 00:37:28,542
Speaker 2: had worked under her for a little bit, so for

701
00:37:28,582 --> 00:37:31,582
Speaker 2: her it was an incredible shock. With Nicole, it was

702
00:37:31,662 --> 00:37:35,222
Speaker 2: more when we had that conversation after Anna Rabinowitz called

703
00:37:35,262 --> 00:37:39,142
Speaker 2: her and asked her if it was true what had happened,

704
00:37:39,182 --> 00:37:41,942
Speaker 2: and Nicole said yes. That was the first time that

705
00:37:42,022 --> 00:37:45,062
Speaker 2: I knew that it had happened to Nicole too, and

706
00:37:45,502 --> 00:37:47,862
Speaker 2: still we didn't have the language to speak about it.

707
00:37:48,502 --> 00:37:50,462
Speaker 2: I don't think I found out about Ellie for a

708
00:37:50,582 --> 00:37:52,822
Speaker 2: while after that. I don't think she disclosed it for

709
00:37:52,902 --> 00:37:54,542
Speaker 2: another few months, So.

710
00:37:54,542 --> 00:37:59,262
Speaker 1: You still struggled to kind of have that dialogue with people,

711
00:37:59,302 --> 00:38:02,862
Speaker 1: even after you had told at least one person what

712
00:38:02,942 --> 00:38:03,462
Speaker 1: had happened.

713
00:38:04,222 --> 00:38:08,422
Speaker 2: I remember telling my husband at the time about it

714
00:38:08,502 --> 00:38:10,262
Speaker 2: because I had to, because I knew the gospip of

715
00:38:11,382 --> 00:38:13,622
Speaker 2: and it's better coming from me than hearing it from

716
00:38:13,662 --> 00:38:16,702
Speaker 2: other people. And I remember having maybe one or two

717
00:38:16,742 --> 00:38:19,742
Speaker 2: conversations about it and then never speaking about it again

718
00:38:19,862 --> 00:38:22,542
Speaker 2: the entire rest of our marriage. We never sat down

719
00:38:22,582 --> 00:38:24,942
Speaker 2: and actually talked about what happened. It was just, okay,

720
00:38:24,982 --> 00:38:27,182
Speaker 2: this happened, It's been dealt with, she's been sent away.

721
00:38:27,702 --> 00:38:30,062
Speaker 2: You know, she's not part of the community anymore. That

722
00:38:30,142 --> 00:38:32,222
Speaker 2: chapter of your life is over. And that was it.

723
00:38:33,222 --> 00:38:36,822
Speaker 1: What about the Australian media, because when life are fled

724
00:38:37,182 --> 00:38:39,982
Speaker 1: it did make headlines. How because it was such an

725
00:38:40,022 --> 00:38:41,062
Speaker 1: enclosed community.

726
00:38:42,142 --> 00:38:45,302
Speaker 2: That surprised me so much. I remember sitting there on

727
00:38:45,302 --> 00:38:48,862
Speaker 2: my computer news are googling malklife and seeing these articles

728
00:38:48,902 --> 00:38:51,062
Speaker 2: come up. And of course I had no understanding of

729
00:38:51,342 --> 00:38:53,662
Speaker 2: how sexual abuse was reported, so I was sure that

730
00:38:53,702 --> 00:38:55,782
Speaker 2: I was going to find my name somewhere and everyone

731
00:38:55,782 --> 00:38:58,702
Speaker 2: would know this shame that I carried around. I think

732
00:38:58,742 --> 00:39:03,502
Speaker 2: there was some person in that dust community felt the

733
00:39:03,502 --> 00:39:06,062
Speaker 2: way that life had been sent away was incredibly wrong

734
00:39:06,182 --> 00:39:09,182
Speaker 2: and alerted the Australian Jewish News, and Australian Jewish News

735
00:39:09,182 --> 00:39:10,822
Speaker 2: picked it up, and then the rest of the media

736
00:39:10,902 --> 00:39:11,942
Speaker 2: picked it up after that.

737
00:39:13,062 --> 00:39:15,142
Speaker 1: How did you feel, Obviously you saw that your name

738
00:39:15,222 --> 00:39:18,742
Speaker 1: wasn't there in those early reports, but how did it

739
00:39:18,782 --> 00:39:25,142
Speaker 1: feel to see headlines like Marklifer accues of molestation, sexual abuse,

740
00:39:25,342 --> 00:39:29,782
Speaker 1: all these kind of big, heavily loaded words in headlines.

741
00:39:30,662 --> 00:39:32,782
Speaker 2: There was a sense of wanting to run away and

742
00:39:32,902 --> 00:39:35,822
Speaker 2: hide from that. I felt very much almost like they're

743
00:39:35,862 --> 00:39:38,142
Speaker 2: making a bigger deal of it than it is because

744
00:39:38,622 --> 00:39:41,222
Speaker 2: I didn't have an understand I didn't even then, really

745
00:39:41,302 --> 00:39:43,662
Speaker 2: hadn't put words to this is sexual abuse. I hadn't

746
00:39:43,702 --> 00:39:47,182
Speaker 2: even put those words to it completely yet. So I

747
00:39:47,262 --> 00:39:49,382
Speaker 2: just I wanted to hide away from that, and I

748
00:39:49,462 --> 00:39:51,862
Speaker 2: was in some way relieved that I wasn't back home

749
00:39:51,902 --> 00:39:54,582
Speaker 2: in the community and around that because the community was

750
00:39:54,662 --> 00:39:57,262
Speaker 2: panicking and I knew that, and I kept hearing about that.

751
00:39:59,382 --> 00:40:02,502
Speaker 1: With life are gone and these kind of allegations out

752
00:40:02,542 --> 00:40:05,622
Speaker 1: in the headlines, Basically for a next step for the

753
00:40:05,622 --> 00:40:08,062
Speaker 1: police to get involved, you kind of have to make

754
00:40:08,102 --> 00:40:10,542
Speaker 1: a statement. You have to tell them what happen and

755
00:40:11,302 --> 00:40:13,902
Speaker 1: start getting that ball more rolling, which you guys, you

756
00:40:13,942 --> 00:40:17,102
Speaker 1: and your sisters didn't do for quite a while after

757
00:40:17,142 --> 00:40:21,222
Speaker 1: that time. So did life almost go back to normal

758
00:40:21,382 --> 00:40:22,622
Speaker 1: a little bit for a while.

759
00:40:23,262 --> 00:40:26,502
Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, The gossip kind of died down and pretty

760
00:40:26,582 --> 00:40:31,102
Speaker 2: much life went back to normal. Sometimes I sit back, like,

761
00:40:31,262 --> 00:40:33,342
Speaker 2: especially during the trial, I've sat back and kind of

762
00:40:33,422 --> 00:40:35,742
Speaker 2: questioned myself, would I have made a police statement then

763
00:40:35,822 --> 00:40:37,902
Speaker 2: if I knew that that was something that I could do,

764
00:40:38,662 --> 00:40:40,942
Speaker 2: and I can't really answer that. I just know that

765
00:40:40,942 --> 00:40:43,702
Speaker 2: that wasn't even something I was aware what was possible.

766
00:40:44,422 --> 00:40:49,422
Speaker 1: Well, you had a lot going on, to be honest, like, yes,

767
00:40:49,542 --> 00:40:52,982
Speaker 1: you had all of this stuff with life are happening,

768
00:40:52,982 --> 00:40:56,022
Speaker 1: But you were talking about before you were struggling with infertility.

769
00:40:56,702 --> 00:40:59,022
Speaker 1: You're also struggling with a lot of depression and anxiety

770
00:40:59,062 --> 00:41:02,582
Speaker 1: living in Israel, thinking about what the next steps for

771
00:41:02,662 --> 00:41:07,102
Speaker 1: you and your then husband were. You did eventually welcome

772
00:41:07,182 --> 00:41:11,582
Speaker 1: your beautiful daughter, Lily in twenty ten. Now did everything

773
00:41:11,622 --> 00:41:16,142
Speaker 1: you'd experienced as a child as a teenager impact your

774
00:41:16,182 --> 00:41:18,582
Speaker 1: experience with early motherhood.

775
00:41:19,782 --> 00:41:23,102
Speaker 2: I think it was having my daughter and realizing that

776
00:41:23,142 --> 00:41:24,662
Speaker 2: I would go to the ends of the earth to

777
00:41:24,702 --> 00:41:28,702
Speaker 2: protect her and made me realize so much more how

778
00:41:28,782 --> 00:41:32,222
Speaker 2: vulnerable and young I was and how no one had

779
00:41:32,222 --> 00:41:37,022
Speaker 2: protected me, and that caused a lot of mental health

780
00:41:37,022 --> 00:41:40,262
Speaker 2: difficulties at the time. It made me also begin questioning

781
00:41:40,262 --> 00:41:41,262
Speaker 2: my way of life.

782
00:41:42,462 --> 00:41:44,502
Speaker 1: I think I'm touching on this with you as well,

783
00:41:44,542 --> 00:41:46,742
Speaker 1: because I've just become a mom. I'm a year in

784
00:41:46,942 --> 00:41:50,502
Speaker 1: to motherhood and it's hard. It's really hard that first

785
00:41:50,582 --> 00:41:54,102
Speaker 1: year especially you are so vulnerable, and I feel like

786
00:41:54,142 --> 00:41:57,102
Speaker 1: it kind of exacerbates all of the other hard shit

787
00:41:57,182 --> 00:42:00,302
Speaker 1: happening in your life. Is that something that you kind

788
00:42:00,342 --> 00:42:02,182
Speaker 1: of experience.

789
00:42:02,262 --> 00:42:05,622
Speaker 2: Oh, definitely, one hundred percent. I think all the hormones

790
00:42:05,662 --> 00:42:10,942
Speaker 2: and everything flooding back, breastfeeding my daughter also triggering a

791
00:42:10,942 --> 00:42:15,542
Speaker 2: lot of memories, and I was just so desperate to

792
00:42:16,262 --> 00:42:18,062
Speaker 2: not be the way that my mother was. I was

793
00:42:18,102 --> 00:42:21,262
Speaker 2: desperate to learn everything and understand how to be the

794
00:42:21,262 --> 00:42:23,462
Speaker 2: best mum for my daughter. But that caused me a

795
00:42:23,502 --> 00:42:26,222
Speaker 2: lot of anxiety because I didn't know how I could

796
00:42:26,222 --> 00:42:28,182
Speaker 2: be a good mother to my daughter. Yeah, it was

797
00:42:28,222 --> 00:42:31,662
Speaker 2: a very very tricky time. My coping mechanisms of dealing

798
00:42:31,702 --> 00:42:35,182
Speaker 2: with all of that was self harming and I was

799
00:42:35,222 --> 00:42:37,022
Speaker 2: incredibly suicidal during that time.

800
00:42:38,062 --> 00:42:42,142
Speaker 1: You did get psychiatric help. How did that transform your life?

801
00:42:43,302 --> 00:42:47,222
Speaker 2: That had a major impact on my life. I think

802
00:42:47,262 --> 00:42:51,382
Speaker 2: walking into the hospital and speaking with other moms that

803
00:42:51,422 --> 00:42:53,222
Speaker 2: were there, you know, to do the best that they

804
00:42:53,262 --> 00:42:56,582
Speaker 2: could do for their children, and realizing this whole us

805
00:42:56,662 --> 00:43:00,262
Speaker 2: versus them mentality I've had all my life wasn't true.

806
00:43:00,742 --> 00:43:04,462
Speaker 2: And if that wasn't true, what else wasn't true? And

807
00:43:04,542 --> 00:43:06,102
Speaker 2: I think it was at the same time that my

808
00:43:06,222 --> 00:43:09,422
Speaker 2: sister had met someone and was going out with someone

809
00:43:09,462 --> 00:43:11,382
Speaker 2: that talked to her about going to the police. And

810
00:43:11,422 --> 00:43:13,302
Speaker 2: Ellie had gone to the police, and she told me

811
00:43:13,342 --> 00:43:16,222
Speaker 2: that she'd gone to the police about mal Kalifa, And

812
00:43:16,262 --> 00:43:18,822
Speaker 2: I'm grappling with this question, you know, do I go

813
00:43:18,902 --> 00:43:21,422
Speaker 2: to the police too, And what are indications that would

814
00:43:21,422 --> 00:43:24,982
Speaker 2: have on my daughter? And just sitting there, you know,

815
00:43:25,062 --> 00:43:27,782
Speaker 2: talking to other people outside of my community, and realizing

816
00:43:27,942 --> 00:43:30,022
Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong with going to the police, So why

817
00:43:30,062 --> 00:43:32,142
Speaker 2: am I made to feel like that's a bad idea?

818
00:43:32,782 --> 00:43:35,862
Speaker 2: And that really started to make me question my way

819
00:43:35,902 --> 00:43:36,342
Speaker 2: of life.

820
00:43:37,142 --> 00:43:39,622
Speaker 1: Do you remember walking into that police station for the

821
00:43:39,662 --> 00:43:44,222
Speaker 1: first time and disclosing to an officer what had happened

822
00:43:44,222 --> 00:43:44,422
Speaker 1: to you?

823
00:43:45,262 --> 00:43:47,942
Speaker 2: I do. I remember going there with my wig, and

824
00:43:48,102 --> 00:43:51,262
Speaker 2: I remember still doing my wedding ring and sitting there

825
00:43:51,302 --> 00:43:54,262
Speaker 2: and not knowing how to speak about these things. And

826
00:43:54,342 --> 00:43:58,742
Speaker 2: luckily I was met with an incredible police officer, Daniel Newton,

827
00:43:59,222 --> 00:44:02,222
Speaker 2: who was very gentle and didn't push me and allowed

828
00:44:02,222 --> 00:44:04,422
Speaker 2: me to talk at my own pace. And there were

829
00:44:04,422 --> 00:44:06,902
Speaker 2: some things I still couldn't say, so I was allowed

830
00:44:06,942 --> 00:44:08,422
Speaker 2: to go home and write about them.

831
00:44:09,742 --> 00:44:12,142
Speaker 1: Was it for you being able to get it off

832
00:44:12,142 --> 00:44:15,742
Speaker 1: your chest to kind of hand what had happened to

833
00:44:15,782 --> 00:44:17,822
Speaker 1: you over to someone else to deal with.

834
00:44:18,262 --> 00:44:21,462
Speaker 2: Not in that sense. I think the consequences of me

835
00:44:21,582 --> 00:44:25,342
Speaker 2: doing that overwhelmed any other feeling. Now looking back, I

836
00:44:25,342 --> 00:44:27,902
Speaker 2: can say, yes, it must have been in some way cathartic,

837
00:44:27,942 --> 00:44:29,582
Speaker 2: but I don't think I felt that at the time.

838
00:44:31,262 --> 00:44:34,662
Speaker 1: Had Ellie left the at US community by.

839
00:44:34,582 --> 00:44:37,862
Speaker 2: Then she had my two brothers had as well.

840
00:44:39,462 --> 00:44:43,622
Speaker 1: How soon after you went to the police did you

841
00:44:44,222 --> 00:44:47,262
Speaker 1: make the decision to not just leave your community, but

842
00:44:47,342 --> 00:44:49,142
Speaker 1: I guess in doing that you also made the decision

843
00:44:49,142 --> 00:44:51,462
Speaker 1: to leave your husband, who was very religious.

844
00:44:52,182 --> 00:44:53,662
Speaker 2: I think there were a lot of things going on

845
00:44:53,702 --> 00:44:56,662
Speaker 2: at the same time, so making that police statement and

846
00:44:56,702 --> 00:44:58,982
Speaker 2: me questioning my way of life, and there were difficulties

847
00:44:58,982 --> 00:45:01,102
Speaker 2: in my marriage because I was questioning my way of

848
00:45:01,142 --> 00:45:03,822
Speaker 2: life and then also seeing this other life that seemed

849
00:45:04,222 --> 00:45:06,862
Speaker 2: a lot more free, and at the same time still

850
00:45:06,902 --> 00:45:10,222
Speaker 2: dealing with self harm and being suicidal. I don't know

851
00:45:10,542 --> 00:45:12,582
Speaker 2: exact moment that I made that decision, but I know

852
00:45:12,662 --> 00:45:15,982
Speaker 2: when I left hospital for the first time, my then

853
00:45:16,062 --> 00:45:19,262
Speaker 2: husband and I decided to separate and trial a separation.

854
00:45:20,102 --> 00:45:23,342
Speaker 1: How do you go about doing that in your world?

855
00:45:23,422 --> 00:45:26,702
Speaker 1: Is that a hard thing to do? To divorce someone

856
00:45:26,742 --> 00:45:27,822
Speaker 1: within the Dusk community.

857
00:45:28,382 --> 00:45:30,702
Speaker 2: It wasn't something I was familiar with at all. I

858
00:45:30,702 --> 00:45:34,542
Speaker 2: think I knew one other person that had got divorced,

859
00:45:35,382 --> 00:45:37,982
Speaker 2: and it was something that, again was very secretive and

860
00:45:38,022 --> 00:45:41,262
Speaker 2: not spoken about and kind of shrouded in this thing

861
00:45:41,302 --> 00:45:44,702
Speaker 2: of shame. I actually didn't know anything about what being

862
00:45:44,782 --> 00:45:48,102
Speaker 2: divorce meant or how I go about doing that. And

863
00:45:48,222 --> 00:45:51,942
Speaker 2: it wasn't like I had anybody I could really look

864
00:45:51,982 --> 00:45:54,302
Speaker 2: at and say, oh, well, you know, they managed to

865
00:45:54,302 --> 00:45:54,982
Speaker 2: do what I could do.

866
00:45:56,062 --> 00:45:59,782
Speaker 1: Is it easier said than done? Building a new life

867
00:46:00,182 --> 00:46:03,182
Speaker 1: completely different to the one you've known for twenty three years.

868
00:46:03,662 --> 00:46:05,942
Speaker 2: It's so incredibly difficult. I don't even know if I

869
00:46:05,942 --> 00:46:08,542
Speaker 2: could describe it in words. But suddenly being in this

870
00:46:08,982 --> 00:46:12,422
Speaker 2: completely different, you know, culture almost I mean I was

871
00:46:12,422 --> 00:46:15,262
Speaker 2: still in Australia, but I was living among people that

872
00:46:15,342 --> 00:46:18,182
Speaker 2: had grown up in the secular world, and they spoke

873
00:46:18,262 --> 00:46:22,502
Speaker 2: different to me, you know, they had different experiences. I

874
00:46:22,542 --> 00:46:25,582
Speaker 2: had to suddenly learn all these new rules of how

875
00:46:25,622 --> 00:46:28,382
Speaker 2: to just exist in that world, rules that people grow

876
00:46:28,502 --> 00:46:30,382
Speaker 2: up and not think about. But I didn't know how

877
00:46:30,382 --> 00:46:32,142
Speaker 2: to speak to men. I didn't know how to date.

878
00:46:32,182 --> 00:46:35,222
Speaker 2: I didn't know how to even pay my bills. It

879
00:46:35,262 --> 00:46:38,462
Speaker 2: was actually an incredibly dangerous time for me because I

880
00:46:38,542 --> 00:46:41,142
Speaker 2: was so naive and so vulnerable. I ended up in

881
00:46:41,182 --> 00:46:44,342
Speaker 2: a lot of sticky situations, situations that I almost lost

882
00:46:44,382 --> 00:46:44,822
Speaker 2: my life.

883
00:46:46,142 --> 00:46:50,302
Speaker 1: How did the negligence case that you brought against ADUs

884
00:46:50,462 --> 00:46:52,462
Speaker 1: Israel School? How did that play out?

885
00:46:52,942 --> 00:46:56,342
Speaker 2: So that wasn't really a decision that I made. It

886
00:46:56,462 --> 00:47:00,542
Speaker 2: was more decision of necessity. My lawyer said I needed

887
00:47:00,582 --> 00:47:03,502
Speaker 2: help with parenting issues, and I didn't have any fund

888
00:47:03,582 --> 00:47:06,142
Speaker 2: so I had no money whatsoever to my name, and

889
00:47:06,222 --> 00:47:08,582
Speaker 2: I needed this legal help from lawyers to be able

890
00:47:08,582 --> 00:47:11,662
Speaker 2: to work out my parenting issues. And the only way

891
00:47:11,742 --> 00:47:14,302
Speaker 2: I kind of could afford it is they told me

892
00:47:14,302 --> 00:47:16,062
Speaker 2: if I took out a case against the school and

893
00:47:16,182 --> 00:47:19,662
Speaker 2: won that case, I could then pay for these other

894
00:47:19,742 --> 00:47:23,902
Speaker 2: legal issues. And my now ex father in law had

895
00:47:23,982 --> 00:47:27,902
Speaker 2: kind of floated the idea as a lawyer about going

896
00:47:28,142 --> 00:47:30,982
Speaker 2: the legal way. There was still so much shame around

897
00:47:30,982 --> 00:47:33,342
Speaker 2: all of it. I couldn't even contemplate it at the time.

898
00:47:34,102 --> 00:47:37,622
Speaker 1: Did winning that case give you any confidence at all?

899
00:47:38,022 --> 00:47:42,222
Speaker 2: I think going through that whole trial and having to

900
00:47:42,262 --> 00:47:44,582
Speaker 2: speak about the use for the first time. I was

901
00:47:44,622 --> 00:47:48,022
Speaker 2: in a much healthier mindset and I felt I had

902
00:47:48,022 --> 00:47:50,622
Speaker 2: a better sense of self and a lot more self

903
00:47:50,622 --> 00:47:53,822
Speaker 2: worth by that time, and I'd been working for years

904
00:47:53,862 --> 00:47:57,662
Speaker 2: on that and hearing that validation in the court and

905
00:47:57,782 --> 00:48:01,502
Speaker 2: knowing that I'd been heard and believed and seen and

906
00:48:01,662 --> 00:48:06,022
Speaker 2: validated was incredibly empowering.

907
00:48:19,662 --> 00:48:24,382
Speaker 1: Lifer, After you and your sisters went to police, her

908
00:48:24,382 --> 00:48:28,182
Speaker 1: extradition from Israel was ordered in twenty fourteen. She didn't

909
00:48:28,262 --> 00:48:30,702
Speaker 1: arrive on our shores until twenty twenty one.

910
00:48:31,142 --> 00:48:34,022
Speaker 2: Her tradition was actually ordered in twenty.

911
00:48:33,942 --> 00:48:36,822
Speaker 1: Twelve, twenty twelve, so it was even longer.

912
00:48:37,142 --> 00:48:40,262
Speaker 2: It was maybe I think twenty thirteen. They finally sent

913
00:48:40,342 --> 00:48:43,262
Speaker 2: the extradition papers to Israel and kind of sat in

914
00:48:43,382 --> 00:48:46,022
Speaker 2: Israel for about a year or so before they actually

915
00:48:46,102 --> 00:48:49,622
Speaker 2: picked it up and went and arrested her. So yes

916
00:48:50,022 --> 00:48:51,182
Speaker 2: went on for a long time.

917
00:48:51,622 --> 00:48:53,742
Speaker 1: Why why did it take so long to bring her

918
00:48:53,742 --> 00:48:55,742
Speaker 1: back to Australia to face these charges.

919
00:48:56,262 --> 00:48:58,742
Speaker 2: Oh, she's a master manipulator. I mean we know that

920
00:48:59,062 --> 00:49:01,742
Speaker 2: from the way that she abused myself and many other people,

921
00:49:01,942 --> 00:49:05,862
Speaker 2: and she used that manipulation to manipulate the legal system

922
00:49:05,902 --> 00:49:09,502
Speaker 2: there pretend she was mentally ill and try and get

923
00:49:09,502 --> 00:49:12,222
Speaker 2: out of ever coming back to Australia, and she had

924
00:49:12,262 --> 00:49:13,942
Speaker 2: some very powerful people helping her.

925
00:49:14,622 --> 00:49:18,262
Speaker 1: How did that process of watching the person that abused

926
00:49:18,302 --> 00:49:22,302
Speaker 1: you evade the law for so long and have all

927
00:49:22,342 --> 00:49:24,702
Speaker 1: of these other people kind of helped prop that up,

928
00:49:25,302 --> 00:49:27,542
Speaker 1: How did that feel for you? And what was your

929
00:49:27,582 --> 00:49:31,382
Speaker 1: relationship with the justice system watching that kind of play out?

930
00:49:32,062 --> 00:49:35,542
Speaker 2: I felt incredibly angry. I felt that this was a

931
00:49:35,582 --> 00:49:38,942
Speaker 2: sign of a much bigger problem that we still have

932
00:49:39,302 --> 00:49:42,662
Speaker 2: as society. So many systems in place that aid and

933
00:49:42,822 --> 00:49:46,822
Speaker 2: help abusers as opposed to helping victims. There was just

934
00:49:46,862 --> 00:49:49,062
Speaker 2: so much that needed to change in order for her

935
00:49:49,102 --> 00:49:52,502
Speaker 2: to be brought back to justice. Sometimes it seems almost

936
00:49:52,582 --> 00:49:54,662
Speaker 2: unbelievable that she actually did come back here.

937
00:49:55,382 --> 00:49:57,462
Speaker 1: I think it's unbelievable that you and your sisters had

938
00:49:57,462 --> 00:50:00,542
Speaker 1: to fight for so long and so hard. You guys

939
00:50:00,542 --> 00:50:04,982
Speaker 1: had a hashtag bring life a home. You were traveling

940
00:50:05,022 --> 00:50:09,342
Speaker 1: over there, you were doing press conferences, you were doing

941
00:50:09,342 --> 00:50:12,422
Speaker 1: everything in your power. Did that take a toll?

942
00:50:13,662 --> 00:50:16,422
Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, But we knew if we didn't continue and

943
00:50:16,902 --> 00:50:19,342
Speaker 2: keep going and pushing for this to happen, she was

944
00:50:19,382 --> 00:50:23,542
Speaker 2: there living in a community that ignored everything that had

945
00:50:23,582 --> 00:50:27,022
Speaker 2: happened before, and we just couldn't live with the fact

946
00:50:27,062 --> 00:50:29,982
Speaker 2: that she would abuse anyone else, and that was something

947
00:50:29,982 --> 00:50:32,262
Speaker 2: that kept us going through all those years.

948
00:50:32,782 --> 00:50:36,742
Speaker 1: How did it feel when she finally touched down on

949
00:50:36,782 --> 00:50:37,622
Speaker 1: Australian soil.

950
00:50:38,622 --> 00:50:40,662
Speaker 2: I mean, that was the beginning of a whole new

951
00:50:40,662 --> 00:50:44,222
Speaker 2: waiting game, But at the time it felt almost surreal.

952
00:50:45,022 --> 00:50:46,902
Speaker 1: And the trial, I know you'd already kind of had

953
00:50:46,942 --> 00:50:50,422
Speaker 1: a taste of standing up and having to tell people

954
00:50:50,462 --> 00:50:52,342
Speaker 1: about what you did, but this was at a whole

955
00:50:52,382 --> 00:50:56,382
Speaker 1: new level. Oh absolutely, How did it feel? Because I

956
00:50:56,382 --> 00:50:59,342
Speaker 1: think when you haven't sat in a courtroom I have,

957
00:50:59,502 --> 00:51:02,262
Speaker 1: I've watched people stand up and give witness statements, but

958
00:51:02,262 --> 00:51:05,782
Speaker 1: I've never had to do it myself. It looks overwhelming,

959
00:51:05,982 --> 00:51:10,342
Speaker 1: It looks incredibly hard. How did you find that experience.

960
00:51:10,462 --> 00:51:17,742
Speaker 2: Incredibly incredibly re traumatizing? Having to sit there and being

961
00:51:17,782 --> 00:51:21,462
Speaker 2: interrogated and being made out to be a liar and

962
00:51:21,542 --> 00:51:26,822
Speaker 2: having to share all of these memories in excruciating detail,

963
00:51:26,942 --> 00:51:29,462
Speaker 2: and then being interrogated and where they're trying to prove

964
00:51:29,502 --> 00:51:31,902
Speaker 2: that you're lying about all of this or imagining it

965
00:51:31,982 --> 00:51:35,142
Speaker 2: in some way. But It wasn't just that the abuse was.

966
00:51:35,182 --> 00:51:37,462
Speaker 2: I wasn't just questioned about the abuse. I was questioned

967
00:51:37,462 --> 00:51:40,582
Speaker 2: about everything in my life, everything from my marriage to

968
00:51:40,622 --> 00:51:44,182
Speaker 2: my daughter to what I watched on the computer. Literally

969
00:51:44,302 --> 00:51:47,742
Speaker 2: nothing was but absolutely nothing. And it literally felt like

970
00:51:47,782 --> 00:51:50,182
Speaker 2: I was just dancing to her tune again because she

971
00:51:50,262 --> 00:51:52,342
Speaker 2: was sitting there at the back of the courtroom behind

972
00:51:52,342 --> 00:51:54,902
Speaker 2: a screen so that I couldn't see her, and she

973
00:51:54,942 --> 00:51:57,502
Speaker 2: couldn't see me, although she had a little camera where

974
00:51:57,502 --> 00:51:59,302
Speaker 2: she could see me as I was on the stand.

975
00:52:00,022 --> 00:52:02,022
Speaker 2: That was more to protect me, so I couldn't see her.

976
00:52:02,622 --> 00:52:05,502
Speaker 2: Not having to say anything where I'm there on the stand,

977
00:52:05,782 --> 00:52:08,662
Speaker 2: you know, being interrogated about my entire life and.

978
00:52:08,622 --> 00:52:11,182
Speaker 1: Putting every detail out there for people to pull apart.

979
00:52:11,222 --> 00:52:13,702
Speaker 1: And as you've mentioned as well, like going through the

980
00:52:13,742 --> 00:52:16,662
Speaker 1: kind of trauma that you've experienced, you don't remember a

981
00:52:16,662 --> 00:52:19,382
Speaker 1: lot of things. Was that kind of used against you?

982
00:52:19,942 --> 00:52:23,502
Speaker 2: It was, and having to say those things when I'm

983
00:52:23,582 --> 00:52:27,742
Speaker 2: feeling retriggered and retraumatized and stay calm and not get

984
00:52:27,742 --> 00:52:31,302
Speaker 2: defensive in any way, as if becoming defensive would mean

985
00:52:31,302 --> 00:52:31,942
Speaker 2: that I'm lying.

986
00:52:32,982 --> 00:52:35,022
Speaker 1: This might be too big a question, But do you

987
00:52:35,022 --> 00:52:35,982
Speaker 1: think there's a better way.

988
00:52:36,982 --> 00:52:40,262
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of different things that can

989
00:52:40,982 --> 00:52:44,582
Speaker 2: help the system be there more for victims. You know.

990
00:52:44,622 --> 00:52:47,702
Speaker 2: I look at my journey through the Victorian legal system,

991
00:52:47,782 --> 00:52:50,222
Speaker 2: and I had a great prosecution team and a great

992
00:52:50,222 --> 00:52:52,662
Speaker 2: police and I was going through them with my sisters,

993
00:52:52,742 --> 00:52:54,822
Speaker 2: and as I write about in the book, I ended

994
00:52:54,902 --> 00:52:57,062
Speaker 2: up back in hospital. You know, that's how much I

995
00:52:57,102 --> 00:52:59,422
Speaker 2: struggled with it. There has to be a better way.

996
00:52:59,662 --> 00:53:02,742
Speaker 1: There has to be Did the guilty verdict and the

997
00:53:02,782 --> 00:53:07,422
Speaker 1: sentence she got fifteen years? Did it bring you any peace?

998
00:53:08,302 --> 00:53:11,582
Speaker 2: It did? It really did. Just being able to put

999
00:53:11,582 --> 00:53:15,822
Speaker 2: that behind me and not have that in my future anymore,

1000
00:53:16,102 --> 00:53:18,702
Speaker 2: which is something that I've had really all my life.

1001
00:53:18,822 --> 00:53:21,542
Speaker 2: And I didn't realize what a sense of peace it

1002
00:53:21,742 --> 00:53:25,462
Speaker 2: was walking away from that and knowing that justice was

1003
00:53:25,542 --> 00:53:29,502
Speaker 2: served and what's understanding how incredibly rare that is. It's

1004
00:53:29,542 --> 00:53:32,702
Speaker 2: incredibly rare for a sexual abuser to be found guilty

1005
00:53:32,742 --> 00:53:36,542
Speaker 2: in the system, which is ridiculous, ridiculous to go through

1006
00:53:36,582 --> 00:53:38,982
Speaker 2: all of that, and there's definitely a sense of peace

1007
00:53:39,302 --> 00:53:40,222
Speaker 2: knowing that's behind me.

1008
00:53:41,222 --> 00:53:42,622
Speaker 1: What made you want to write a book?

1009
00:53:43,062 --> 00:53:47,022
Speaker 2: I love writing, and I felt that it was a

1010
00:53:47,102 --> 00:53:49,862
Speaker 2: very important story to share. I feel that's how we

1011
00:53:49,942 --> 00:53:52,422
Speaker 2: learn as a society from other people's stories. I know

1012
00:53:52,542 --> 00:53:55,702
Speaker 2: that I felt much more alone reading other people's stories

1013
00:53:55,702 --> 00:53:57,742
Speaker 2: that have gone through similar circumstances.

1014
00:53:58,382 --> 00:54:00,902
Speaker 1: And I guess the focus had been so much on

1015
00:54:01,662 --> 00:54:05,582
Speaker 1: Lifer and what she did to you. But what I

1016
00:54:05,622 --> 00:54:07,982
Speaker 1: took away from your book was everything that happened before that,

1017
00:54:08,782 --> 00:54:12,182
Speaker 1: everything that's shaped to you were before you met Lifer.

1018
00:54:12,582 --> 00:54:15,782
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that was a part of writing,

1019
00:54:15,902 --> 00:54:20,022
Speaker 2: of trying to explain why I was so vulnerable and

1020
00:54:20,182 --> 00:54:24,342
Speaker 2: naive and how the world I was born into shaped me.

1021
00:54:25,662 --> 00:54:29,262
Speaker 1: You mentioned earlier your father passed away in twenty nineteen.

1022
00:54:29,782 --> 00:54:31,822
Speaker 1: Have you got any contact with your mum?

1023
00:54:32,502 --> 00:54:34,302
Speaker 2: No, I don't. I haven't had for years.

1024
00:54:35,422 --> 00:54:37,742
Speaker 1: What is life like for you now? Are you happy?

1025
00:54:38,302 --> 00:54:40,182
Speaker 2: I am. I have a lot more moments of peace

1026
00:54:40,222 --> 00:54:42,742
Speaker 2: and a lot more moments of happiness, and I can

1027
00:54:42,782 --> 00:54:46,102
Speaker 2: look towards the future from a completely different space. I

1028
00:54:46,142 --> 00:54:48,902
Speaker 2: don't feel like I'm in a survival space anymore, which

1029
00:54:48,942 --> 00:54:51,022
Speaker 2: I didn't realize I was in for such a long time.

1030
00:54:51,782 --> 00:54:55,542
Speaker 1: Do you consider yourself religious anymore in any way?

1031
00:54:55,982 --> 00:54:57,702
Speaker 2: No, I live a secular lifestyle.

1032
00:54:58,422 --> 00:55:00,862
Speaker 1: And what do you want people to take away from

1033
00:55:00,942 --> 00:55:03,102
Speaker 1: your story, from hearing everything that you've gone through.

1034
00:55:03,902 --> 00:55:06,662
Speaker 2: I want people to feel less alone. I want people

1035
00:55:06,742 --> 00:55:09,942
Speaker 2: to learn and understand and to be able to empathize

1036
00:55:09,982 --> 00:55:11,662
Speaker 2: with other peop people in their life that are going

1037
00:55:11,742 --> 00:55:14,902
Speaker 2: through circumstances or dealing with the justice system, or going

1038
00:55:14,902 --> 00:55:17,902
Speaker 2: through abuse. And I hope it changes the conversation around

1039
00:55:17,902 --> 00:55:20,582
Speaker 2: what as a society we need to do to better

1040
00:55:20,662 --> 00:55:21,942
Speaker 2: protect our most vulnerable.

1041
00:55:25,182 --> 00:55:27,902
Speaker 1: Thanks to Dussie for entrusting us to help tell her

1042
00:55:27,942 --> 00:55:32,102
Speaker 1: story on True Crime Conversations. Her memoir In Bad Faith

1043
00:55:32,342 --> 00:55:34,382
Speaker 1: is out now. You can find a link to it

1044
00:55:34,422 --> 00:55:37,942
Speaker 1: in our episode description. This episode was hosted by me

1045
00:55:38,462 --> 00:55:42,422
Speaker 1: Jemma Bass, with audio design by Tom Lyon. Our executive

1046
00:55:42,462 --> 00:55:56,502
Speaker 1: producer is Geom Moylan. If you're looking for something else

1047
00:55:56,542 --> 00:55:59,182
Speaker 1: to listen to, like and follow all of our Mommamea

1048
00:55:59,262 --> 00:56:02,782
Speaker 1: podcasts which are currently bringing you Hot Pod Summer one

1049
00:56:02,902 --> 00:56:08,382
Speaker 1: hundred hours of Summer listens from spicy conversations to incredible stories, fashion, beauty,

1050
00:56:08,502 --> 00:56:09,102
Speaker 1: and more.