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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mom with Me podcast, Amelia.

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Speaker 2: We've had some feedback from our listeners.

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Speaker 3: Go on.

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Speaker 2: They say that they thank you very funny, and they

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Speaker 2: think that you have a future as a stand up comedian.

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Speaker 3: Don't stop it. Tell me more so.

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Speaker 2: The question is that you can do a tour in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 3: Do you know what's so funny is that this reminded

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Speaker 3: me that I did, in fact try stand up once

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Speaker 3: really watched this memory. I did stand up about ten

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Speaker 3: years ago when I was living in New York. A

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Speaker 3: friend invited me on her show that she used to

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Speaker 3: do every month, and she'd have a rotating cast of commedy.

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Speaker 1: Was it like an open mic?

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Speaker 3: And I a bit open mic? Live yeahotely live yeap.

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Speaker 3: And I found the email I sent out to my

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Speaker 3: friends about it, and I said, I'm going to be

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Speaker 3: talking about dating and restaurants because they were my two

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Speaker 3: special special subjects at the time, New York comedy. And

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Speaker 3: you know what's funny, Not a single person can remember

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Speaker 3: anything about this show, including me. I've asked friends now,

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Speaker 3: maybe they're being nice, Like I did some research today

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Speaker 3: and I texted them and I said, what was it?

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Speaker 3: Like because they're all on the email chain saying they

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Speaker 3: were coming. Everyone claims not to remember, including friends with

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Speaker 3: really good memories. And the friend who invited me onto

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Speaker 3: this open mic night, she ghosted me. After the event.

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Speaker 3: I discovered in my Gmail archives that she just disappears

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Speaker 3: from my Gmail archives. She never emailed me again. So

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Speaker 3: I think what this means is I probably shouldn't be

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Speaker 3: a stand.

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Speaker 4: What it means is you should take our wonderful out

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Speaker 4: loud as comments, greenshot it and send it just context

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Speaker 4: this friend, yes, the next friend, with no context, but

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Speaker 4: with the meaning of somebody.

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Speaker 3: Thinks, somebody thinks I'm funny.

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Speaker 4: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to MoMA mea out loud. That's what

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Speaker 4: women are actually talking about. On Wednesday, the third of December.

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Speaker 3: I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm Amelia Last, and.

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Speaker 1: I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 4: And here's what's made our agenda for today, the photo

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Speaker 4: of a millennial icon that to me redefines what being

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Speaker 4: forty something means.

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Speaker 3: Now, Pilates is out, strength training is in. I want

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Speaker 3: to talk about what fitness trends say about us and

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Speaker 3: what we really want.

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Speaker 2: And if you're on the fence, about having kids just

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Speaker 2: don't have them?

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Speaker 1: Is that fair advice? And if so, why.

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Speaker 2: Did I have such a strong emotional reaction to it?

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Speaker 2: And let's hear Amelia and Holly tie themselves in knots

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Speaker 2: trying not to say the word hormones.

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Speaker 4: The first.

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Speaker 3: The influencer Indy Clinton has released a TikTok video that

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Speaker 3: is blowing people's minds. Let's have a listen to it.

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Speaker 5: Hey, I was actually going to ask you guys for

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Speaker 5: your opinion on something, but I've already made up my mind,

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Speaker 5: so I may as well just tell you because I

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Speaker 5: don't need your opinion. I just want to let you

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Speaker 5: know what I'm doing as a mother. Make me think,

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Speaker 5: why don't more people do this? Because I actually can't

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Speaker 5: genuinely think of any reasons why this would be a

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Speaker 5: bad thing. My third child, Solina, that one, the third born,

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Speaker 5: have decided to change her birthday to the twelfth of December.

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Speaker 5: She was actually just too close to Christmas for my liking,

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Speaker 5: and I just I just thought, going forward, she's never

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Speaker 5: going to know we have officially changed it.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So what you can gather from that video is

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Speaker 3: that Indy Clinton has a daughter, her third daughter, who

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Speaker 3: I gather is a bit of a handful who had

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Speaker 3: a birthday close to Christmas and now Indy. Now, whether

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Speaker 3: or not this is true or not, take it with

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Speaker 3: a big grain of salt. But she suggests in this

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Speaker 3: video that she has changed her daughter's birthday so that

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Speaker 3: it is less close to Christmas. Now, I know you

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Speaker 3: are both December babies, and you're always banging on about

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Speaker 3: how hard it is to be a December baby. I

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Speaker 3: want to give you the floor. Do you love this idea? Holly, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I do. I think she should do it. You don't, Okay,

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Speaker 3: But why is it so bad.

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Speaker 4: Because you can't actually change your birthday? I looked into

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Speaker 4: it because I thought, what.

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Speaker 6: A good idea? Can I change one birthday? I actually can't.

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Speaker 4: But one of the great things about having little kids

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Speaker 4: they don't know on their birthdays.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, no, they have no idea.

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Speaker 4: So for at least ten years, I reckon, you have

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Speaker 4: got the leeway to just tell them their birthday is

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Speaker 4: whatever it is, and then at some point you're going

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Speaker 4: to have to come clean. The reason why it's bad

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Speaker 4: to have birthday close to Christmas. Mind's on the twentieth,

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Speaker 4: which is five days before when I was a kid,

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Speaker 4: I hated it for just very superficial, shallow reasons. People

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Speaker 4: would often give you one present and say that's for

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Speaker 4: Birthday and Christmas. This is an unforgivable act, particularly the

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Speaker 4: little kids. Like little kids live for presents, you have

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Speaker 4: to wait all year round for it to be anything exciting.

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Speaker 4: Whereas my friends and my son who has a June birthday,

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Speaker 4: and my partner Brent has a June birthday very evenly

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Speaker 4: spaced celebrations and gifts.

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Speaker 3: Right, No, June is clearly the best month to have birthday,

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Speaker 3: and I'll be hearing no arguments on that. Jesse, do

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Speaker 3: you hate having a December birthday? Yes?

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Speaker 2: I am December twenty one. My twin sisters December twenty one,

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Speaker 2: and then she had her daughter on December twenty.

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Speaker 4: The universe was conspiring to teach you that same lesson.

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Speaker 1: I've been pitching you since I could speak.

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Speaker 2: I've been bitching, and then the universe went, actually, we're

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Speaker 2: gonna throw another one on your birthday. And now I'm

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Speaker 2: spending my birthday at Wiggles. So but that's a whole

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Speaker 2: other issue. But I think this is really smart the comments. Look,

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Speaker 2: Indy Clinton is a content genius to come up with

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Speaker 2: this idea, because I think everyone with kids trying to

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Speaker 2: organize a birthday party or something around this time of

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Speaker 2: year is thinking this is what they should do.

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Speaker 3: But also people are getting so angry.

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Speaker 1: They're getting the comment they were so funny.

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Speaker 2: They were like, your child's gonna get really confused because

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Speaker 2: they're gonna go on schoolies and they're gonna think they

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Speaker 2: can drink and they can't. And I was like, I

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Speaker 2: don't think that's going to happen, Like I think they're

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Speaker 2: going to come across their real birthday before schoollies.

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Speaker 1: It's for fine.

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Speaker 4: As an adult, I don't have a problem anymore with

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Speaker 4: my birthday.

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Speaker 6: I quite like it.

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Speaker 4: It makes that time of the year all the good

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Speaker 4: things happen, you know. But the tricky part about it

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Speaker 4: is is it's hard to get other people to celebrate

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Speaker 4: you because they're all so busy. So Jesse, I can't

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Speaker 4: remember if it was you or Claire or both of

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Speaker 4: you who wrote a piece once from Mamma Maya about

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Speaker 4: how having a December birthday is actually quite personality defining.

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Speaker 4: And I think Indy Clinton needs to read it because

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Speaker 4: even if she pretends that her daughter was not born

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Speaker 4: near Christmas. You can't escape those personality vies.

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Speaker 3: Wait. Sorry, I'm sorry I didn't read this article, but

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Speaker 3: that's because it sounds silly. Explain to me how it's

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Speaker 3: personality defining.

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Speaker 2: People born close to Christmas are superior because they have

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Speaker 2: a sense that they are not at the center of

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Speaker 2: the universe.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, my true birthday, and.

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Speaker 2: We know that in terms of priority, we were never

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Speaker 2: made a fuss over. We probably have self esteem issues, Holly,

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Speaker 2: I think I could tread to that not about us,

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Speaker 2: and if not about about us, I haven't got to

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Speaker 2: Westfield yet.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 2: And I wonder if we changed our birthdays to make

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Speaker 2: to give ourselves the mere time we couldn't handle it.

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Speaker 2: We would not we wouldn't organize a birthday well, like

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Speaker 2: it would just be too weird. I'm like, it's so

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Speaker 2: incompatible with my personality. It must always be a struggle.

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Speaker 2: And like people saying they can't come and me stumping

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Speaker 2: my feet up and down is what birthday is all about.

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Speaker 4: Indy Clint's kidding herself because she she says to her

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Speaker 4: in her words, that this child is a little bit

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Speaker 4: of a handful. Yes, of course, she is because she

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Speaker 4: has a December birthday.

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Speaker 6: Moving in two weeks is not going to change that.

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Speaker 1: And if you're going to move it, you've got.

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Speaker 6: To move it to the best.

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Speaker 4: I have to draw the pod cast collective attention to

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Speaker 4: a photograph of one Sienna Miller. Now, do we think

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Speaker 4: the outlouders are all across who Sienna Miller is?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 2: That My millennial reference point is Alfhi.

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Speaker 3: Is that and Jude Law. She dated Jude Law and

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Speaker 3: she just was the Coollers. She went to Glastonbury and

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Speaker 3: looked cooler than Kate Moss.

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Speaker 2: Every time I go to the hairdresser, I say, I

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Speaker 2: want Sienna Miller's hair from Alfie, like I want the

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Speaker 2: Curt Bend. That's twig, Yes exactly, I will my last

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Speaker 2: words to head.

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Speaker 4: She's just always been the coolest woman she has She's

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Speaker 4: she it girl was a term much used about her

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Speaker 4: in her youth. She dated lots of handsome, famous men.

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Speaker 4: She had an excellent resurgence with the show The Anatomy

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Speaker 4: of a Scandal a few years ago, which was like

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Speaker 4: a political British She's She's really, she's great.

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Speaker 2: Not relevant to this story, but Jude of course cheated

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Speaker 2: on her with the name.

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Speaker 4: With the nanny, and then there would be something to

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Speaker 4: do with a man that anyway, whatever, anyway in the picture,

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Speaker 4: this is obviously an audio medium unless you're watching us

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Speaker 4: on YouTube, but we I'm sure you can find it

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Speaker 4: and we'll put it on our socials. In this photo right,

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Speaker 4: Sienna Miller is at the Fashion Awards in London on

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Speaker 4: Monday night, so just a few days ago. She is

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Speaker 4: visibly bloomingly pregnant. She has very long blonde hair in

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Speaker 4: mermaid waves. She is wearing a completely see through moomoo

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Speaker 4: which has a bra top with cutaways.

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Speaker 2: Holly wrong use of the word murmur. I think it's negligent. Okay,

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Speaker 2: it's like a nightties It's.

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Speaker 4: Like a negligey nighty moo moo thing and white nickers

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Speaker 4: which are obviously very visible, and feathery heels.

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Speaker 6: She looks incredible.

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Speaker 1: It's like a Greek goddess.

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Speaker 4: And all I can think is Sienna Miller is forty three,

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Speaker 4: and this is this what forty's look like now, pregnant

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Speaker 4: and three. I want to be clear before we get

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Speaker 4: into this, this is not a conversation about old moms.

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Speaker 4: I had my second kid at forty there's no issues

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Speaker 4: with any of that, of course, And it's also not

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Speaker 4: about what age appropriate clothes should be about, because who

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Speaker 4: cares about that. For me, it's about how this image

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Speaker 4: tells us that we have very successfully extended use.

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Speaker 6: There is just no way that even.

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Speaker 4: A decade ago, a woman in her early forties would

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Speaker 4: look like this, dressed like this, be presenting like this

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Speaker 4: if she was pregnant, it would be being described as

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Speaker 4: some kind of miracle and everyone would be falling over

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Speaker 4: about it, whereas this didn't really raise that many eyebrows

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Speaker 4: at all. It makes me think, you know, forties used

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Speaker 4: to be old. And when I say this, I mean

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Speaker 4: in the culture. I don't mean that we think that necessarily,

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Speaker 4: and certainly, I'm ten years older than Sienna Miller. I

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Speaker 4: don't feel old. But in the culture, thirties used to

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Speaker 4: be like there was this show called thirty something that

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Speaker 4: was huge in the early nineties that was all about

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Speaker 4: how boring it was to be in your thirties is

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Speaker 4: so old and boring. Forties was really old, fifties was ancient,

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Speaker 4: and beyond that was unthinkable. And one of the things

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Speaker 4: I think when I look at this image is we

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Speaker 4: have really extended youth.

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Speaker 2: Am I crazy the rebrand particularly of one's forties? And

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Speaker 2: I think that gen X is in the process of

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Speaker 2: doing this with their fifties.

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Speaker 6: As they moved through it. We absolutely are.

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Speaker 2: But the successful rebrand of the decade of the forties

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Speaker 2: is one of the most phenomenal things to witness.

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Speaker 3: Like, that's exactly what it is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it used to be the epitome of middle age,

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Speaker 2: a term which we don't use anymore. We use the

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Speaker 2: term midlife, which doesn't sound better.

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Speaker 6: Technically it is middle aged.

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Speaker 3: I have a anecdote which perfectly illustrates the rebrand. In

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Speaker 3: the nineties, when I was growing up, I was given

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Speaker 3: a board game I'm a jum Birthday, get a lot

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Speaker 3: of gifts, and it was called Life Begins at forty.

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Speaker 3: And the premise of this board game on the cover

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Speaker 3: was a convertible car with two quote unquote old looking

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Speaker 3: people streaming off into the sunset. Cash just flowing out

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Speaker 3: of the car. Kids gone, mortgage paid off. The whole

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Speaker 3: game was about getting rid of all of these things

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Speaker 3: that were tying you down, the kids and the mortgage

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Speaker 3: and the job, because you're now setting off into the

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Speaker 3: sunset into walls were essentially a dotage. Yeah, And that

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Speaker 3: concept of forty as being the full crum between young

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Speaker 3: and old, I think that's just completely gone now.

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Speaker 2: And what do we think obviously, I mean you can

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Speaker 2: put cosmetic surgery. I think longevity science is another thing,

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Speaker 2: probably the trajectory of one's career as well as the

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Speaker 2: other thing. So it used to be that you kind

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Speaker 2: of hit the heights of your career in your thirties,

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Speaker 2: and your forties and fifties you slowed down and quite

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Speaker 2: you know, mostly for men.

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Speaker 4: It depends on what your career is because the boss,

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Speaker 4: the CEO, the prime minister, the president traditionally was always

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Speaker 4: a man in his fifties, right, a white man in

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Speaker 4: his fifties was power decade. But for women that has

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Speaker 4: always that has been always different. You know, you were

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Speaker 4: in the culture once you had it once upon a time,

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Speaker 4: once you were married, it was kind of like not

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Speaker 4: very not very cool anymore. Then certainly as a mother

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Speaker 4: you were shuffled off to like the uninteresting corner. And

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Speaker 4: then being over thirty even was once like a bit

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Speaker 4: old now and.

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Speaker 2: Now it's I'm gonna retrain to be a psychotherapist at

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Speaker 2: forty five, Like it's this whole it's this era of

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Speaker 2: reinvention a lot of because this is I suppose a

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Speaker 2: story about celebrity where you look at your Sienna Miller's

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Speaker 2: and you could go the Kardashian's, the Kardashian era too.

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Speaker 3: Like Rachel Weiss just announced she was pregnant in her

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Speaker 3: mid forties.

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Speaker 2: Kim Kardashian is forty five and and looks better than

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Speaker 2: she did at twenty five. Right, I don't think this

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Speaker 2: is just a celebrity story. I'm seeing this in my

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Speaker 2: real world with what I.

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Speaker 3: Want to see. Is that true?

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Speaker 2: The women I know in their forties are thriving. They

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Speaker 2: are saying they've never felt better, They look incredible, they

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Speaker 2: have a focus on health. They like it's nothing like

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Speaker 2: it's just nothing like middle age. And I remember when

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Speaker 2: my mom turned forty, going mom's old, like I.

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Speaker 1: Remember having this.

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Speaker 2: It was the forty thing was just this enormous moment

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Speaker 2: that's certainly been shifted back.

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Speaker 3: It was always like a punchline in sitcoms when someone

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Speaker 3: turned forty, they were expected to just be despondent for

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Speaker 3: the whole year, because there was this idea of like,

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Speaker 3: youth is done now for so one foot in the grave.

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Speaker 2: Miranda Hobbes famously said on Sex and the City, forty

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Speaker 2: three is her scary age, Like that was what she said,

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Speaker 2: And statistically that's still likely the midpoint of your life.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so, yes, so it is the midpoint of your life.

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Speaker 4: But we don't call women in their forties middle age,

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Speaker 4: mostly because they would punch us in the face if

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Speaker 4: we did. Don't call me middle age. I will punch

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Speaker 4: you in the face.

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Speaker 1: Because of your protein you're creating and yes, training, yes.

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Speaker 4: But the thing that's interesting, as you've touched on, is

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Speaker 4: whether or not this is real, like whether the Sienna

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Speaker 4: Miller mirage in her you know, gorgeous, blooming forty three

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Speaker 4: In all ways, does trickle down because I think, you know, obviously,

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Speaker 4: advancement in technology, which is everything from skin care to

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Speaker 4: cosmetic surgery, nutrition to wellness trends to exercise to you know,

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Speaker 4: and to a certain echelon of people having access to

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Speaker 4: a lot of stuff that many of us probably didn't understand,

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Speaker 4: But does trickle down Like once upon a time, you know,

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Speaker 4: injectables were things that only very fancy, rich people, famous

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Speaker 4: people did, and now you can get it at theist

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Speaker 4: or your hairdressers, you know, advances in weight loss technology. Again,

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Speaker 4: things that really fancy people did and really rich people

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Speaker 4: did with their fancy doctors. Now so mainstream we see

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Speaker 4: it everywhere. We look, same with even things like exercise,

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Speaker 4: Like the legend goes that Marilyn Monroe was jogging in

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Speaker 4: the nineteen fifties and everyone thought she was in set,

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Speaker 4: like why would you do that?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 4: Whereas and we have this obsession now with longevity, which

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Speaker 4: they think is going to well, it is the big

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Speaker 4: boom space. And that means everything from that really famous

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Speaker 4: guy who's trying.

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Speaker 1: Not to die Brian Johnson.

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Speaker 4: Too, extending fertility through various different kinds of treatments. So

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Speaker 4: we are obsessed with this extension of youth for very

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Speaker 4: obvious reasons. There is nothing more frightening than death, right so,

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Speaker 4: and aging is a signal of it. So we are

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Speaker 4: pushing at that and pushing at that. I don't know

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Speaker 4: that I think it's a good thing or a bad

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Speaker 4: thing or anything, but it's just so interesting.

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Speaker 6: Is it a good thing a bad thing?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I worry about it a little bit, And that question

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Speaker 3: of whether or not we're really just setting up unrealistic

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Speaker 3: expectations for women in their forties, so there's certainly a

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Speaker 3: good side to it. Just this week we saw Jody

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Speaker 3: Hayden marry the Prime Minister. She is a woman in

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Speaker 3: her mid forties. That was barely remarked on that she

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Speaker 3: was getting married at that age. In fact, no one

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Speaker 3: even talked about it. Really, it was seen as completely unremarkable,

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Speaker 3: Whereas in a previous generation, the idea of having that

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Speaker 3: full traditional wedding in your mid forties probably wouldn't have

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Speaker 3: happened like that. There probably would have been a sense

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Speaker 3: of shame or stigma around it. So I think it's

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Speaker 3: great that we're removing that idea of shame and stigma

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Speaker 3: around having to do milestones at certain ages. What I

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Speaker 3: worry about is that any woman who chooses not to

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Speaker 3: opt into that competitive aging, because that's what this is essentially,

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Speaker 3: it's like how well can I age? How can I

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Speaker 3: beat everyone else at aging, which is after all something

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Speaker 3: all of us go through. Women who opt out of

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Speaker 3: it are judged and even mocked merciless for doing so.

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Speaker 3: I'm thinking, for instance, of Kate Middleton, the Princess of Wales,

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Speaker 3: and remember the sort of sense of disbelief on the

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Speaker 3: internet when she was seen looking slightly less than perfect

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Speaker 3: recently because she had some very obvious kind of hair

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Speaker 3: touch ups and she had some wrinkles which she had

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Speaker 3: not taken out through cosmetic procedures. So I just worry

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Speaker 3: that we're just potentially, yes, we're taking some stigma away,

364
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Speaker 3: but are we then judging women who don't want to

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Speaker 3: opt into that whole thing?

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Speaker 4: But I don't think it's all about what you look

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Speaker 4: like like. The thing that why that's Cienamella thing is

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Speaker 4: so so striking to me is obviously it's about what

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Speaker 4: she looks like in that terms of the whole presentation

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Speaker 4: of it. But throwing the baby belly, it's almost like

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Speaker 4: saying age isn't where, We're beyond it, we're ageless.

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Speaker 6: Now they're know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: Sphere that rejects that entirely. And I think that there

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Speaker 2: is a real rub happening between the.

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Speaker 6: Culture and reality.

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Speaker 2: I think it's medicine, right, you go to the doctor.

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Speaker 2: So you're sixty, I know a lot like my parents' generation.

378
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Speaker 2: They are like my nan would have had a walking

379
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Speaker 2: stick at sixty. My parents are on holiday, they are exercising,

380
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Speaker 2: they are feeling wonderful. They go to the doctor and

381
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Speaker 2: they go, you're a senior. Yeah, they use the word senior,

382
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Speaker 2: and it's like this confronting who's a senior?

383
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Speaker 4: Where I find it really really confronting. When I go

384
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Speaker 4: to the doctor and I'm complaining about something and they say, well,

385
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Speaker 4: you're in your fifties, I kind of like want to

386
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Speaker 4: say and excuse me, excuse me.

387
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Speaker 6: I don't feel so anyway.

388
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Speaker 2: We can see that image of Sienna Miller. But then

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Speaker 2: on the flip side you have Claire Danes who just

390
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Speaker 2: recently spoke really candidly about falling pregnant at forty four

391
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Speaker 2: and feeling an enormous amount of shame that she thought

392
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Speaker 2: people were looking at her going why is she falling

393
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Speaker 2: pregnant at that age? It's dangerous And I am as

394
00:20:11,274 --> 00:20:14,354
Speaker 2: a foremation, my birthday is coming up. Please send me gifts.

395
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Speaker 2: I will be thirty five, which will make me officially

396
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Speaker 2: a geriatric pregnancy.

397
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Speaker 1: That is a term.

398
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Speaker 2: The other one they use is advanced maternal age, which,

399
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Speaker 2: as it doesn't feel better.

400
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Speaker 4: I feel that they need to get to get rid

401
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Speaker 4: of that, not talk about as the average age of

402
00:20:29,834 --> 00:20:33,194
Speaker 4: mother's changes in lots of countries like Australia because I

403
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Speaker 4: also had I had geriatric pregnancies. They really need to

404
00:20:37,274 --> 00:20:39,234
Speaker 4: rethink the pr of that, or do they.

405
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Speaker 2: Yes, that's what I mean, because doctors aren't about PR.

406
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Speaker 2: Doctors are about stats, they're about studies, they are about risk.

407
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Speaker 2: They are going what we know is that your I

408
00:20:49,554 --> 00:20:51,034
Speaker 2: had an appointment the other day they talked to me

409
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Speaker 2: about bone density and I said, I think you've misunderstood.

410
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Speaker 2: I am thirty four years old, and they like, so

411
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Speaker 2: you can do whatever you want culturally and rebrand something.

412
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Speaker 2: But then you go to the doctor and they go, oh,

413
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Speaker 2: I can see your age. We're going to do all

414
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Speaker 2: of these tests, and it's like, why age is just

415
00:21:08,354 --> 00:21:10,274
Speaker 2: an illusion, that's not.

416
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Speaker 3: My partner, who is a physician, had a patient once

417
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Speaker 3: who came in. She would come in every month for

418
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Speaker 3: a checkup, and that's because she was one hundred and

419
00:21:20,874 --> 00:21:23,714
Speaker 3: one and every month she'd come in and they do

420
00:21:23,834 --> 00:21:26,034
Speaker 3: the check up and everything was fine. And then one

421
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Speaker 3: time she came in, he said, how are you feeling today?

422
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Speaker 3: And she said, oh, I'm good, I'm just a little

423
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Speaker 3: bit tired. And he said, yeah, do you think that

424
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Speaker 3: could have something to do with the fact that you're

425
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Speaker 3: one hundred and one years old, but no one can exit.

426
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Speaker 3: No one actually thinks that they're old on the inside.

427
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Speaker 3: They just think, why am I tired? I don't think

428
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Speaker 3: it's because I've reached a century.

429
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Speaker 4: I also think that, like lots of things, this is

430
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Speaker 4: just going to become a real status symbol.

431
00:21:51,474 --> 00:21:51,634
Speaker 3: Right.

432
00:21:51,634 --> 00:21:55,273
Speaker 4: It already has like aging, whether and when I say that,

433
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Speaker 4: I don't just mean your physical face. I mean aging

434
00:21:58,914 --> 00:22:01,954
Speaker 4: is beginning to look like a choice if you've got

435
00:22:02,034 --> 00:22:04,914
Speaker 4: the access and the resources to be able to fight it.

436
00:22:05,034 --> 00:22:06,793
Speaker 4: You know, whether you are the richest man in the

437
00:22:06,794 --> 00:22:09,714
Speaker 4: world who are convinced they want to live forever and

438
00:22:09,794 --> 00:22:12,474
Speaker 4: longevity is going to be apparently worth trillions of dollars

439
00:22:12,514 --> 00:22:15,234
Speaker 4: in a few years, or whether down to us who

440
00:22:15,234 --> 00:22:17,034
Speaker 4: are just like, oh, is that rinkle going to stop

441
00:22:17,074 --> 00:22:17,674
Speaker 4: me getting a job?

442
00:22:17,754 --> 00:22:17,874
Speaker 2: Like?

443
00:22:18,674 --> 00:22:21,834
Speaker 6: It's going to become a very stratified thing.

444
00:22:23,434 --> 00:22:36,394
Speaker 3: In a moment. Is Pilates a giant scam? Pilarates might

445
00:22:36,434 --> 00:22:40,314
Speaker 3: be over bad news for anyone who loves their reformer classes.

446
00:22:40,314 --> 00:22:42,914
Speaker 3: But Jesse sent me a newsletter the other day. It's

447
00:22:42,954 --> 00:22:47,114
Speaker 3: called Body Type. It's written by MICHAELA. Jamison, and in

448
00:22:47,154 --> 00:22:51,074
Speaker 3: this newsletter, Michayla kind of takes down pilates as the

449
00:22:51,114 --> 00:22:52,474
Speaker 3: exercise trend at the moment.

450
00:22:52,594 --> 00:22:54,474
Speaker 4: It's lucky for me because I've been meaning to get

451
00:22:54,514 --> 00:22:57,834
Speaker 4: back to pilates for thirteen years and now I can

452
00:22:57,914 --> 00:22:58,394
Speaker 4: just go, oh.

453
00:22:58,354 --> 00:22:59,714
Speaker 6: Well, it's out of fashion.

454
00:22:59,874 --> 00:23:00,834
Speaker 1: I never should have done it.

455
00:23:00,874 --> 00:23:05,114
Speaker 3: After a though, Jamison writes that back in twenty twenty two,

456
00:23:05,914 --> 00:23:08,634
Speaker 3: the woman who did Polardi that was shorthand for being

457
00:23:08,634 --> 00:23:12,194
Speaker 3: a hot woman. But now that whole idea of like

458
00:23:12,234 --> 00:23:15,874
Speaker 3: the hot exercise has become strength training, which, by the way,

459
00:23:15,954 --> 00:23:18,434
Speaker 3: Jamison thinks is great. She thinks this is a good trend.

460
00:23:18,474 --> 00:23:20,674
Speaker 3: It's a much more effective way for women to meet

461
00:23:20,674 --> 00:23:24,034
Speaker 3: their fitness goals, That's what she says. But I don't

462
00:23:24,074 --> 00:23:26,554
Speaker 3: so much want to get into which form of exercise

463
00:23:26,714 --> 00:23:29,034
Speaker 3: is most efficient, because we're not the experts on that.

464
00:23:29,714 --> 00:23:32,794
Speaker 3: What I want to talk about is fitness trends, because

465
00:23:32,834 --> 00:23:35,474
Speaker 3: they definitely do exist. This piece reminded me of that,

466
00:23:35,554 --> 00:23:38,434
Speaker 3: and back in twenty twelve, running was the fitness trend.

467
00:23:38,794 --> 00:23:41,194
Speaker 3: Remember there was this scene from thirtie Rock where Alec

468
00:23:41,274 --> 00:23:44,994
Speaker 3: Baldwin's character is talking to Elizabeth Banks's character. They're dating

469
00:23:44,994 --> 00:23:48,313
Speaker 3: at the time, and this interaction lives rent free in

470
00:23:48,354 --> 00:23:50,914
Speaker 3: my head. You went running, I thought you'd left.

471
00:23:50,954 --> 00:23:52,234
Speaker 6: Who else is out there this early?

472
00:23:52,514 --> 00:23:54,273
Speaker 1: Almost exclusively women that look like me?

473
00:23:54,634 --> 00:23:57,234
Speaker 3: If the perverse community gets wind of morning jogging, oh

474
00:23:57,314 --> 00:23:58,114
Speaker 3: god help us.

475
00:23:58,394 --> 00:23:58,954
Speaker 6: Have you seen this?

476
00:23:59,754 --> 00:24:02,754
Speaker 3: So morning jogging was it back then? And now we

477
00:24:02,834 --> 00:24:05,434
Speaker 3: had pilates for a few years and now it's strength training.

478
00:24:06,434 --> 00:24:08,474
Speaker 3: I think it's his lot about where we're at as

479
00:24:08,514 --> 00:24:11,114
Speaker 3: a culture, about which one of these fitness trends is

480
00:24:11,194 --> 00:24:14,594
Speaker 3: most popular. Jamison says that Polarates was kind of pernicious,

481
00:24:14,634 --> 00:24:16,994
Speaker 3: That's what she says. She says that as Thinness was

482
00:24:16,994 --> 00:24:21,074
Speaker 3: coming back in full force after many years of body positivity,

483
00:24:21,554 --> 00:24:25,874
Speaker 3: Polartes kind of popularized what she calls a cut paste body,

484
00:24:26,034 --> 00:24:29,434
Speaker 3: like really long, lean muscles, and she says that whole

485
00:24:29,474 --> 00:24:32,594
Speaker 3: aesthetic was ultimately quite damaging to women as well as

486
00:24:32,674 --> 00:24:35,874
Speaker 3: being really hard to attain. Jesse, you've noticed this shift

487
00:24:36,274 --> 00:24:39,914
Speaker 3: in the culture away from polates and why do you

488
00:24:39,914 --> 00:24:42,194
Speaker 3: think that is? What do you think is coming next?

489
00:24:42,434 --> 00:24:42,714
Speaker 1: Okay?

490
00:24:42,794 --> 00:24:46,394
Speaker 2: So I am the ultimate sheep when it comes to

491
00:24:46,434 --> 00:24:46,914
Speaker 2: this stuff.

492
00:24:46,994 --> 00:24:47,274
Speaker 5: I go.

493
00:24:47,354 --> 00:24:49,674
Speaker 2: When I went to the gym in my early twenties,

494
00:24:49,714 --> 00:24:52,434
Speaker 2: it was cardio and core. You'd do a few sit

495
00:24:52,554 --> 00:24:55,074
Speaker 2: ups and you'd get on some sort of cardio machine

496
00:24:55,114 --> 00:24:57,754
Speaker 2: and be like, this is what women do it.

497
00:24:58,074 --> 00:25:01,154
Speaker 3: Like the elliptical, Like you take your sort of gossip

498
00:25:01,234 --> 00:25:03,914
Speaker 3: mag and your giant iced coffee and just sort of

499
00:25:03,994 --> 00:25:04,634
Speaker 3: hang out there.

500
00:25:04,634 --> 00:25:06,114
Speaker 1: For you that's what you were meant to do.

501
00:25:07,874 --> 00:25:08,274
Speaker 5: For a while.

502
00:25:08,274 --> 00:25:10,513
Speaker 2: Actually, I got into like interval like where you get

503
00:25:10,554 --> 00:25:12,834
Speaker 2: your heart rate up and yeah, because I went, yeah,

504
00:25:12,834 --> 00:25:14,474
Speaker 2: it's about getting a heart rate up and down as

505
00:25:14,474 --> 00:25:17,273
Speaker 2: though like I think I'm a pete like because I

506
00:25:17,314 --> 00:25:20,994
Speaker 2: read a thing, And then I got really into pilates

507
00:25:20,994 --> 00:25:24,034
Speaker 2: and then moved on to strength training because of aforementioned

508
00:25:24,354 --> 00:25:29,674
Speaker 2: bone density strength training. There's some really interesting analysis about

509
00:25:29,714 --> 00:25:35,714
Speaker 2: why that is so. Firstly, it is because of the

510
00:25:35,834 --> 00:25:39,154
Speaker 2: rise of the midlife woman, who is all of a sudden,

511
00:25:39,154 --> 00:25:42,754
Speaker 2: the most shared podcast episodes of the last twelve months

512
00:25:42,794 --> 00:25:47,554
Speaker 2: are all about midlife nutrition and exercise. It's a really

513
00:25:47,594 --> 00:25:48,594
Speaker 2: specific We.

514
00:25:48,594 --> 00:25:50,634
Speaker 6: Had got to Stacy Simms. She is doctor.

515
00:25:50,634 --> 00:25:53,754
Speaker 4: Stacy Simms is one of those women. She was the

516
00:25:53,794 --> 00:25:55,674
Speaker 4: most shared on Mel Robbins this year. But she was

517
00:25:55,674 --> 00:25:58,793
Speaker 4: on mid and I interviewed her for Mid and that

518
00:25:58,874 --> 00:26:03,114
Speaker 4: episode went nuts. But some people were really annoyed with it,

519
00:26:03,314 --> 00:26:05,914
Speaker 4: and some people loved it to be why were they annoyed, Well,

520
00:26:05,994 --> 00:26:09,474
Speaker 4: I found it very reassuring because one of doctor Stacy

521
00:26:09,514 --> 00:26:12,354
Speaker 4: Simms things is that she thinks we've all been steered

522
00:26:12,354 --> 00:26:15,634
Speaker 4: a bit wrong about exercise because she says, you know,

523
00:26:15,794 --> 00:26:17,514
Speaker 4: she points out all the time, we're not small men,

524
00:26:17,514 --> 00:26:19,674
Speaker 4: and nearly all the research that we live and die

525
00:26:19,674 --> 00:26:23,394
Speaker 4: by was done on men. And she basically said, well,

526
00:26:23,474 --> 00:26:26,754
Speaker 4: she's a big proponent of weight training massive and of

527
00:26:26,794 --> 00:26:31,194
Speaker 4: interval training actually, but some people find any kind of

528
00:26:31,754 --> 00:26:34,194
Speaker 4: advice in that. And I definitely have said this on

529
00:26:34,234 --> 00:26:36,674
Speaker 4: the podcast before. I find when we were looking at

530
00:26:36,754 --> 00:26:40,514
Speaker 4: Jessica Bial's workout to remember that, I can find it very.

531
00:26:42,354 --> 00:26:42,514
Speaker 3: Like.

532
00:26:42,954 --> 00:26:45,754
Speaker 4: It just makes you feel it just seems unattainable. It

533
00:26:45,834 --> 00:26:47,874
Speaker 4: just seems complicated, unattainable.

534
00:26:48,474 --> 00:26:52,034
Speaker 2: It just feels like alienating and alienating and like, oh

535
00:26:52,074 --> 00:26:54,034
Speaker 2: my god, I get you know, half an hour of

536
00:26:54,114 --> 00:26:56,394
Speaker 2: exercise in a day, which is the reality for most

537
00:26:56,514 --> 00:26:59,514
Speaker 2: women that I know, and now it's so complex.

538
00:26:59,594 --> 00:27:02,954
Speaker 4: So some people pushed back on that, but you're right, Jesse,

539
00:27:03,114 --> 00:27:06,474
Speaker 4: like that advice, the weight training advice has become so mainstream.

540
00:27:06,514 --> 00:27:08,714
Speaker 4: I was at a park on Friday night and a

541
00:27:08,794 --> 00:27:10,834
Speaker 4: woman asked me what I was lifting.

542
00:27:12,034 --> 00:27:13,114
Speaker 1: That's always a good gift.

543
00:27:13,394 --> 00:27:16,034
Speaker 4: The first time anyone has ever asked me that.

544
00:27:16,434 --> 00:27:18,313
Speaker 6: I thought only dudes asked each other that.

545
00:27:18,834 --> 00:27:21,033
Speaker 4: And I didn't know what the answer was because I

546
00:27:21,154 --> 00:27:22,394
Speaker 4: sometimes lift ways in the gym.

547
00:27:22,394 --> 00:27:23,114
Speaker 6: I don't know what they are.

548
00:27:23,234 --> 00:27:25,074
Speaker 1: I asked you. You said you were doing leg presses,

549
00:27:25,074 --> 00:27:26,274
Speaker 1: and I said how much.

550
00:27:26,554 --> 00:27:27,914
Speaker 6: I was like, I have not no idea.

551
00:27:28,114 --> 00:27:30,514
Speaker 4: I don't know, but I was like, Oh, the fact

552
00:27:30,554 --> 00:27:33,954
Speaker 4: that this is now mainstream party conversation for women of

553
00:27:33,994 --> 00:27:36,354
Speaker 4: a certain era that says a lot.

554
00:27:36,874 --> 00:27:38,154
Speaker 1: I was reading about it.

555
00:27:38,754 --> 00:27:42,954
Speaker 2: It was El magazine had a thing that basically said

556
00:27:42,994 --> 00:27:44,754
Speaker 2: big shoulders are in and it was talking about the

557
00:27:44,834 --> 00:27:48,114
Speaker 2: Jessica bill back moment from this year, but also about

558
00:27:48,154 --> 00:27:52,793
Speaker 2: how the regressive politics in the US at the moment

559
00:27:53,034 --> 00:27:57,793
Speaker 2: and what feels like kind of stripping women of certain rights.

560
00:27:57,914 --> 00:28:02,033
Speaker 2: There is this like feminine rage and energy and what

561
00:28:02,154 --> 00:28:06,874
Speaker 2: muscles represent, like women wanting to appear and feel strong

562
00:28:06,874 --> 00:28:08,434
Speaker 2: in the selves and what that means.

563
00:28:08,954 --> 00:28:10,634
Speaker 1: But my theory that's true.

564
00:28:10,674 --> 00:28:12,394
Speaker 3: By the way, I've heard that from a number of

565
00:28:12,754 --> 00:28:16,234
Speaker 3: newsletters that I subscribe to. Right people want to feel

566
00:28:16,274 --> 00:28:18,914
Speaker 3: empowered at a point where they feel like they don't

567
00:28:18,914 --> 00:28:21,274
Speaker 3: have any control over the political landscape.

568
00:28:21,474 --> 00:28:25,234
Speaker 2: And cardio doesn't necessarily make you feel like it can

569
00:28:25,354 --> 00:28:28,914
Speaker 2: make you feel lighter, I suppose, But this is a

570
00:28:28,994 --> 00:28:30,114
Speaker 2: real polarity.

571
00:28:30,154 --> 00:28:32,273
Speaker 3: It doesn't make you feel that. I love it, but

572
00:28:32,314 --> 00:28:32,874
Speaker 3: it doesn't give it.

573
00:28:33,314 --> 00:28:36,034
Speaker 4: It's classic that it's you know, all of these things,

574
00:28:36,074 --> 00:28:39,034
Speaker 4: as per the first conversation we're having today, are about

575
00:28:39,314 --> 00:28:42,394
Speaker 4: trends in women's bodies, like do they want to feel

576
00:28:42,434 --> 00:28:44,594
Speaker 4: tiny and fragile? Do they want to feel strong? But

577
00:28:45,034 --> 00:28:48,474
Speaker 4: that just is it's just all such nonsense, right, It's

578
00:28:48,514 --> 00:28:51,114
Speaker 4: all such nonsense. Why are our bodies subject to trends

579
00:28:51,154 --> 00:28:53,554
Speaker 4: when we all know the best exercise you can do

580
00:28:53,634 --> 00:28:54,594
Speaker 4: is one you'll do yeah.

581
00:28:54,634 --> 00:28:57,434
Speaker 2: And it's also a response I think to any sort

582
00:28:57,474 --> 00:28:59,674
Speaker 2: of weight loss injections that's going to change how we exercise,

583
00:28:59,754 --> 00:29:03,714
Speaker 2: which is that like you lose muscle, and so the

584
00:29:03,794 --> 00:29:07,434
Speaker 2: recommendation is you go and muscle yep. But this is

585
00:29:07,434 --> 00:29:09,714
Speaker 2: where I reckon it's going. You know, when you see

586
00:29:09,954 --> 00:29:11,754
Speaker 2: something for the first time and then suddenly you see

587
00:29:11,754 --> 00:29:15,074
Speaker 2: the word everywhere and it's like I am so seeing it.

588
00:29:15,914 --> 00:29:18,274
Speaker 2: I reckon twenty twenty six. The word in fitness that

589
00:29:18,274 --> 00:29:22,354
Speaker 2: we're going to be hearing is mobility, right, because mobility

590
00:29:23,114 --> 00:29:27,354
Speaker 2: is going to be the a status marker of youth.

591
00:29:28,514 --> 00:29:31,034
Speaker 2: And by mobility, what I mean is how you what,

592
00:29:31,754 --> 00:29:34,354
Speaker 2: how you stand, how you get up, how you move

593
00:29:34,434 --> 00:29:34,954
Speaker 2: your body.

594
00:29:35,234 --> 00:29:38,194
Speaker 4: That's what I obsessed with with Aniston and her whatever

595
00:29:38,234 --> 00:29:40,594
Speaker 4: that she's doing on that check at clawsh I think.

596
00:29:40,474 --> 00:29:42,314
Speaker 2: It's going to be less about how you look and

597
00:29:42,354 --> 00:29:46,594
Speaker 2: more about how you move. So everywhere I'm seeing a

598
00:29:46,594 --> 00:29:52,314
Speaker 2: lot of fitness even influencers, now we're doing like here's

599
00:29:52,314 --> 00:29:57,274
Speaker 2: a hip mobility, here's a blah mobility fifteen twenty minutes.

600
00:29:57,074 --> 00:29:58,874
Speaker 3: And call mobility. I feel like I've seen that.

601
00:29:59,034 --> 00:30:03,514
Speaker 2: Yes, physios are doing it like they're going, this is.

602
00:30:03,674 --> 00:30:06,874
Speaker 3: What listening to this are like, We've always.

603
00:30:08,794 --> 00:30:10,554
Speaker 2: Because I've always been doing it because they're like, you

604
00:30:10,554 --> 00:30:12,274
Speaker 2: can go and lift whatever you want, but if you

605
00:30:12,274 --> 00:30:14,634
Speaker 2: don't have mobility in your back or your hips, then

606
00:30:14,674 --> 00:30:15,194
Speaker 2: you can't.

607
00:30:15,234 --> 00:30:16,874
Speaker 1: Actually, Oh my god.

608
00:30:16,954 --> 00:30:19,354
Speaker 4: You need all the things. This just reminds me the

609
00:30:19,434 --> 00:30:21,514
Speaker 4: have a video I saw recently, and I don't mean

610
00:30:21,554 --> 00:30:25,074
Speaker 4: to mock a man, but a little bit. It was

611
00:30:25,114 --> 00:30:28,754
Speaker 4: a Leonardo DiCaprio the god who is Leonardo DiCaprio getting

612
00:30:28,794 --> 00:30:30,514
Speaker 4: out of a car, And just before he got out

613
00:30:30,514 --> 00:30:32,034
Speaker 4: of a car, his girlfriend got out of the car.

614
00:30:32,234 --> 00:30:34,554
Speaker 4: She's a twenty seven year old Italian model and her

615
00:30:34,634 --> 00:30:38,634
Speaker 4: name is Victoria c Ceretti. Anyway, the car door opens,

616
00:30:39,034 --> 00:30:43,634
Speaker 4: it's graandy paparazzi footage. This young like foal leaps from

617
00:30:43,634 --> 00:30:46,434
Speaker 4: the car and rushes past the paparazzi.

618
00:30:45,754 --> 00:30:46,274
Speaker 3: Into the car.

619
00:30:47,354 --> 00:30:50,914
Speaker 4: Any hands to get up, and then DiCaprio, who's only

620
00:30:50,994 --> 00:30:52,474
Speaker 4: I think he's probably just a bit older than me,

621
00:30:52,554 --> 00:30:53,554
Speaker 4: is he.

622
00:30:53,154 --> 00:30:54,914
Speaker 6: He gets out of the car and it's not like

623
00:30:54,994 --> 00:30:56,714
Speaker 6: he's hobbling like an old dude.

624
00:30:56,954 --> 00:30:59,194
Speaker 4: But you know how he always has his baseball down,

625
00:30:59,234 --> 00:31:00,234
Speaker 4: even at Jeff Bezos.

626
00:31:00,794 --> 00:31:03,754
Speaker 6: It's just the way he walked from the car.

627
00:31:03,794 --> 00:31:06,314
Speaker 1: To the restaurant that was the betrayal.

628
00:31:06,394 --> 00:31:09,554
Speaker 4: It's just every really little tiny bit, just like the

629
00:31:09,674 --> 00:31:12,274
Speaker 4: man in his fifty It is true. We were just

630
00:31:12,354 --> 00:31:16,114
Speaker 4: talking about how longevity is the buzzword, and this news

631
00:31:16,554 --> 00:31:18,074
Speaker 4: is that people are like, I don't want to walk

632
00:31:18,114 --> 00:31:19,394
Speaker 4: like an old person. I don't want to move like

633
00:31:19,434 --> 00:31:21,834
Speaker 4: an old person. I want to My feed is just

634
00:31:21,914 --> 00:31:24,514
Speaker 4: wall to wall people going. If you do a hundred

635
00:31:24,594 --> 00:31:26,954
Speaker 4: hops in the morning, then you will always move like

636
00:31:26,994 --> 00:31:27,314
Speaker 4: a blah.

637
00:31:27,354 --> 00:31:28,514
Speaker 6: But it's so true.

638
00:31:28,674 --> 00:31:30,034
Speaker 1: And don't you reckon too that.

639
00:31:30,194 --> 00:31:33,874
Speaker 2: You know how even social media photos and the selfie

640
00:31:33,914 --> 00:31:36,674
Speaker 2: camera and all of that changed how we saw ourselves

641
00:31:36,714 --> 00:31:38,754
Speaker 2: in our bodies. Everything is video.

642
00:31:38,874 --> 00:31:39,834
Speaker 3: Oh, such a good point.

643
00:31:39,954 --> 00:31:40,714
Speaker 1: Everything is video.

644
00:31:40,794 --> 00:31:43,034
Speaker 2: So I think that we've got this sense of like

645
00:31:43,474 --> 00:31:46,354
Speaker 2: we care how we move, even in parties classes I've done,

646
00:31:46,354 --> 00:31:49,154
Speaker 2: I've noticed I'll do a thing where they go they

647
00:31:49,154 --> 00:31:50,874
Speaker 2: get you to see it on a on a thing

648
00:31:51,274 --> 00:31:54,114
Speaker 2: and then it's like, try and stand up with one leg.

649
00:31:54,234 --> 00:31:56,714
Speaker 1: This will mean that you can stand up without hands.

650
00:31:56,514 --> 00:31:59,754
Speaker 2: At eighty Like that's really important, which is really important,

651
00:31:59,834 --> 00:32:03,074
Speaker 2: and it's important for literally like breaking a hip can

652
00:32:03,114 --> 00:32:04,154
Speaker 2: be a death sentence at eighty.

653
00:32:04,234 --> 00:32:07,034
Speaker 1: So like that kind of stuff I just reckon.

654
00:32:07,154 --> 00:32:09,874
Speaker 2: And mobility is going to be the thing we focus

655
00:32:09,954 --> 00:32:11,914
Speaker 2: more and more on, which isn't a bad thing, but

656
00:32:12,154 --> 00:32:14,994
Speaker 2: it is about how we move rather than how we look.

657
00:32:15,234 --> 00:32:19,074
Speaker 3: I think that's brilliant. I have another prediction. Yes, I

658
00:32:19,194 --> 00:32:22,034
Speaker 3: read an article recently that I cannot stop thinking about,

659
00:32:22,154 --> 00:32:26,314
Speaker 3: which was in Self magazine, and it suggested that we

660
00:32:26,354 --> 00:32:29,034
Speaker 3: should all be going for fart walks.

661
00:32:29,034 --> 00:32:32,834
Speaker 6: Yes, telling me this for a long time.

662
00:32:32,834 --> 00:32:37,754
Speaker 3: Fart walks. So basically, after your evening meal, you just

663
00:32:37,914 --> 00:32:40,994
Speaker 3: go out and you take yourself on a fart walk.

664
00:32:41,314 --> 00:32:44,274
Speaker 3: It's thirty minutes or whatever, really just so you can

665
00:32:44,314 --> 00:32:46,194
Speaker 3: do a few farts and digest.

666
00:32:46,314 --> 00:32:47,674
Speaker 1: Good for digestion, yeap.

667
00:32:47,994 --> 00:32:51,274
Speaker 3: And it's actually great for then going to sleep afterwards

668
00:32:51,274 --> 00:32:52,994
Speaker 3: because you've just sort of settled your stomach.

669
00:32:53,074 --> 00:32:55,634
Speaker 1: And that's what they say when you have like constipation issues.

670
00:32:55,674 --> 00:32:57,914
Speaker 3: It's all about movie, yep. And it can be a

671
00:32:57,994 --> 00:33:00,834
Speaker 3: nice thing to do with a partner or with a child.

672
00:33:00,954 --> 00:33:03,234
Speaker 3: I have tried to take my children on fart walks

673
00:33:03,234 --> 00:33:06,314
Speaker 3: with mixed success. But I just think that I hear

674
00:33:06,354 --> 00:33:09,874
Speaker 3: you on the mobile, I do. But I think twenty

675
00:33:09,954 --> 00:33:12,354
Speaker 3: twenty six is the year of the fart war.

676
00:33:12,674 --> 00:33:14,234
Speaker 6: And fiber friends.

677
00:33:14,314 --> 00:33:17,714
Speaker 4: You know how all year I've been protein protein shoving

678
00:33:17,754 --> 00:33:21,434
Speaker 4: cottage cheese and everything from sandwiches to cocktails to.

679
00:33:21,394 --> 00:33:23,274
Speaker 6: Coffee, just like more cottage cheese.

680
00:33:23,594 --> 00:33:25,474
Speaker 4: And then now it's just like fiber, fiber, fiber, and

681
00:33:25,514 --> 00:33:28,794
Speaker 4: I'm like, oh my god, I'm worried about the cottage cheese, Holly.

682
00:33:28,834 --> 00:33:30,714
Speaker 2: I feel like there can be a lot of heartwalks,

683
00:33:31,354 --> 00:33:36,674
Speaker 2: body picks with all that fiber after the break the

684
00:33:36,794 --> 00:33:39,474
Speaker 2: article about parenting that made me puff a fish and

685
00:33:39,514 --> 00:33:44,114
Speaker 2: I need Amelia and Holly to shock me down. Every

686
00:33:44,234 --> 00:33:47,354
Speaker 2: Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments of mummya out

687
00:33:47,354 --> 00:33:50,834
Speaker 2: Loud just for Mummia subscribers. Follow the link in the

688
00:33:50,834 --> 00:33:53,074
Speaker 2: show notes to get your daily dose of out loud

689
00:33:53,314 --> 00:34:02,594
Speaker 2: and a big thank you to all our current subscribers.

690
00:34:03,954 --> 00:34:06,354
Speaker 2: If you're on the fence about kids, don't do it.

691
00:34:06,714 --> 00:34:09,114
Speaker 2: That was the headline on an article published in the

692
00:34:09,154 --> 00:34:13,074
Speaker 2: Sydney Morning Herald yesterday written by Zoya Paatel, and I

693
00:34:13,234 --> 00:34:16,953
Speaker 2: had a visceral reaction to it. I hadn't read it yet.

694
00:34:16,994 --> 00:34:20,154
Speaker 2: I'd just seen the headline with the feature image, which

695
00:34:20,154 --> 00:34:24,194
Speaker 2: had a woman who like head in hands pouring coffee

696
00:34:24,234 --> 00:34:26,433
Speaker 2: onto the table while a kid in the background was

697
00:34:26,434 --> 00:34:29,074
Speaker 2: like eh. I was like, yeah, all right, I think

698
00:34:29,114 --> 00:34:34,754
Speaker 2: I get the gist. I read it and appreciated her argument,

699
00:34:34,954 --> 00:34:37,754
Speaker 2: although I have a few rebuttals. She writes that she

700
00:34:37,954 --> 00:34:40,394
Speaker 2: was on the fence about whether or not to have kids,

701
00:34:40,394 --> 00:34:42,594
Speaker 2: and she ultimately decided to have a child who is

702
00:34:42,634 --> 00:34:45,274
Speaker 2: now her two year old son. And this is a

703
00:34:45,354 --> 00:34:48,554
Speaker 2: quote while he has changed my life in incredibly positive ways.

704
00:34:48,794 --> 00:34:50,954
Speaker 1: He has also altered my life.

705
00:34:50,714 --> 00:34:53,234
Speaker 2: In challenging ways too, And in the context of cultural

706
00:34:53,274 --> 00:34:56,274
Speaker 2: wars between the child free and parents, I think parents

707
00:34:56,354 --> 00:34:58,154
Speaker 2: should be more honest about this.

708
00:34:58,474 --> 00:34:58,954
Speaker 1: She says.

709
00:34:59,034 --> 00:35:01,314
Speaker 2: Of course, she loves him intensely. She talks about the

710
00:35:01,354 --> 00:35:05,074
Speaker 2: gratitude of watching him grow up and learn about the world.

711
00:35:06,354 --> 00:35:09,034
Speaker 2: But she I can imagine a life without him. She

712
00:35:09,114 --> 00:35:10,074
Speaker 2: rejects that cliche.

713
00:35:10,114 --> 00:35:10,714
Speaker 1: She says, I can.

714
00:35:10,674 --> 00:35:12,474
Speaker 2: Imagine a life without him. It would have been a

715
00:35:12,474 --> 00:35:14,953
Speaker 2: perfectly nice, fulfilling one.

716
00:35:15,194 --> 00:35:16,234
Speaker 1: Now it is very.

717
00:35:16,114 --> 00:35:19,474
Speaker 2: Possible that it's the hormones currently coursing throughout my body.

718
00:35:19,554 --> 00:35:24,554
Speaker 2: But my question is can you can you imagine a

719
00:35:24,594 --> 00:35:27,873
Speaker 2: world without your kids? And would you advise women on

720
00:35:28,194 --> 00:35:30,433
Speaker 2: the fence not to do it?

721
00:35:30,474 --> 00:35:33,034
Speaker 3: Can you explain why you got angry at this, because

722
00:35:33,074 --> 00:35:34,914
Speaker 3: this seems very obvious.

723
00:35:35,754 --> 00:35:39,314
Speaker 2: I had to analyze it, and I realized that it's

724
00:35:39,674 --> 00:35:44,074
Speaker 2: less about the article and more about the discourse I

725
00:35:44,074 --> 00:35:48,474
Speaker 2: feel it's playing in, which is that I see so

726
00:35:48,594 --> 00:35:52,274
Speaker 2: much negativity and I am so sensitive to it, so

727
00:35:52,554 --> 00:35:57,433
Speaker 2: much negativity about parenting, and it is so much worse

728
00:35:57,474 --> 00:35:59,913
Speaker 2: when you have twins on the way, like I have

729
00:36:00,034 --> 00:36:04,034
Speaker 2: not heard a single good thing. People don't come up

730
00:36:04,074 --> 00:36:07,274
Speaker 2: to you and say, like, people get excited about the pregnancy,

731
00:36:07,514 --> 00:36:10,873
Speaker 2: but it's like they want to tell you how hard

732
00:36:10,914 --> 00:36:16,114
Speaker 2: it is. And that's because it is, yes, yes, and

733
00:36:16,394 --> 00:36:19,074
Speaker 2: people say it when they go through the shops with twins.

734
00:36:19,074 --> 00:36:20,594
Speaker 1: Everyone kind of goes, how do you do it?

735
00:36:20,794 --> 00:36:23,394
Speaker 2: And I'm in like mums of multiples groups on Facebook

736
00:36:23,474 --> 00:36:27,674
Speaker 2: and it's all terrifying, which that's probably their only support network.

737
00:36:27,714 --> 00:36:32,274
Speaker 2: Like that's fair enough, but this is a terrible analogy.

738
00:36:32,314 --> 00:36:33,794
Speaker 2: But you know how if you're on a holiday, a

739
00:36:33,834 --> 00:36:35,913
Speaker 2: girl's trip, right, Let's say you're another country and there's

740
00:36:35,914 --> 00:36:38,914
Speaker 2: someone on your trip who just bitches the whole time

741
00:36:39,194 --> 00:36:42,473
Speaker 2: about the hotel and about the country and about the

742
00:36:42,514 --> 00:36:45,794
Speaker 2: food and about the bla and you stop being able

743
00:36:45,794 --> 00:36:48,074
Speaker 2: to enjoy it because you have this in your ear.

744
00:36:48,914 --> 00:36:52,714
Speaker 2: I just worry that the Internet does that to us.

745
00:36:52,634 --> 00:36:53,834
Speaker 6: Sometimes, Jesse.

746
00:36:54,274 --> 00:36:56,714
Speaker 4: I have enormous sympathy for you about that, because I

747
00:36:56,754 --> 00:36:59,834
Speaker 4: think that what you're experiencing there is, you know, a

748
00:37:00,274 --> 00:37:03,674
Speaker 4: very inflated version of what all parents experience the first

749
00:37:03,674 --> 00:37:05,674
Speaker 4: time they're pregnant, which is when we discussed this at

750
00:37:05,674 --> 00:37:08,034
Speaker 4: the time, when you're with that. Everyone likes to tell

751
00:37:08,034 --> 00:37:10,194
Speaker 4: your birth horror story. Everyone likes to tell you.

752
00:37:10,154 --> 00:37:11,354
Speaker 6: Oh, I hope you're getting your sleep, and.

753
00:37:11,394 --> 00:37:13,714
Speaker 1: Da da da da da, all that life is over yet.

754
00:37:13,754 --> 00:37:17,314
Speaker 4: But this article was not aimed at you. It was

755
00:37:17,354 --> 00:37:19,714
Speaker 4: aimed at women who are on the fence about parenting.

756
00:37:19,754 --> 00:37:23,473
Speaker 4: If it's aimed at anyquity, right, And the advice in it,

757
00:37:23,594 --> 00:37:27,953
Speaker 4: which is, if you don't know, understand how hard it

758
00:37:27,994 --> 00:37:30,194
Speaker 4: is before you make that choice, make an informed choice,

759
00:37:30,314 --> 00:37:31,434
Speaker 4: is very good advice.

760
00:37:31,874 --> 00:37:32,754
Speaker 6: It's the opposite.

761
00:37:32,834 --> 00:37:35,194
Speaker 4: The thing that's interesting to me culturally is it's the

762
00:37:35,234 --> 00:37:40,114
Speaker 4: opposite of the very accepted you're never ready, just do it,

763
00:37:40,194 --> 00:37:42,913
Speaker 4: which is basically the parenting advice we all get all

764
00:37:42,954 --> 00:37:45,234
Speaker 4: the time, and every young woman gets any time she

765
00:37:45,474 --> 00:37:48,114
Speaker 4: expresses that maybe she's not desperate to have a baby

766
00:37:48,754 --> 00:37:51,594
Speaker 4: because of this reason or that reason. Maybe it's financial,

767
00:37:51,594 --> 00:37:54,394
Speaker 4: maybe it's relationship, maybe it's whatever. And generally the culture

768
00:37:54,474 --> 00:37:57,154
Speaker 4: is pushing on young women all the time to have babies,

769
00:37:57,194 --> 00:38:00,114
Speaker 4: have them now, don't wait, your fertility is running out.

770
00:38:00,314 --> 00:38:02,314
Speaker 6: You're never ready have babies. Have babies.

771
00:38:02,354 --> 00:38:05,993
Speaker 4: This, to me, rather than being part of a overwhelming

772
00:38:05,994 --> 00:38:09,114
Speaker 4: negative discourse, is like a tiny pushback on that.

773
00:38:09,834 --> 00:38:11,634
Speaker 2: I think you're right, and she had a really good

774
00:38:11,714 --> 00:38:16,954
Speaker 2: point about the hubris of thinking that you can recommend

775
00:38:16,954 --> 00:38:19,674
Speaker 2: a person have a child either way.

776
00:38:19,834 --> 00:38:21,834
Speaker 6: I don't think you should, like I don't.

777
00:38:21,674 --> 00:38:22,874
Speaker 1: Think it's anyone's business.

778
00:38:22,994 --> 00:38:26,433
Speaker 6: Like a foundation, I don't think you recommending.

779
00:38:26,114 --> 00:38:29,634
Speaker 2: And I think being evangelical about everyone should have them

780
00:38:29,794 --> 00:38:31,994
Speaker 2: is the most ridiculous thing in the world. And the

781
00:38:32,034 --> 00:38:36,114
Speaker 2: privilege involved in being able to enjoy parenting is like

782
00:38:36,194 --> 00:38:40,514
Speaker 2: a whole other thing that I think is really really true.

783
00:38:41,234 --> 00:38:46,873
Speaker 2: But I wonder if the result of the declining birth

784
00:38:46,914 --> 00:38:50,274
Speaker 2: rate is that half my friends have kids, half of

785
00:38:50,274 --> 00:38:54,154
Speaker 2: them don't. And do I think the people who don't

786
00:38:54,154 --> 00:38:55,074
Speaker 2: should have them? No.

787
00:38:55,354 --> 00:38:56,033
Speaker 1: Absolutely.

788
00:38:56,914 --> 00:38:58,953
Speaker 2: Most of my friends have taken a really long time

789
00:38:58,994 --> 00:39:01,433
Speaker 2: to make a decision, and I'm not seeing a lot

790
00:39:01,434 --> 00:39:04,834
Speaker 2: of parental regret because they've come to that decision and

791
00:39:04,874 --> 00:39:06,594
Speaker 2: they're really really happy.

792
00:39:06,354 --> 00:39:09,953
Speaker 4: With falling divorce statistics that we've talked about. People are

793
00:39:09,954 --> 00:39:12,514
Speaker 4: getting married later, they're living together first, they're considering it

794
00:39:12,554 --> 00:39:14,754
Speaker 4: more so, they're making a better choice.

795
00:39:14,874 --> 00:39:18,554
Speaker 2: Yes, but the result of that is that now we

796
00:39:18,634 --> 00:39:23,754
Speaker 2: are exposed to the other path more so my parents.

797
00:39:23,834 --> 00:39:27,994
Speaker 2: Ninety eight percent of my parents' friends had kids. There

798
00:39:28,034 --> 00:39:29,474
Speaker 2: was no one going on a holiday, There was no

799
00:39:29,474 --> 00:39:31,593
Speaker 2: one going out to dinner, there was no one having

800
00:39:31,594 --> 00:39:34,274
Speaker 2: cocktails on a Friday night. They weren't exposed to it.

801
00:39:34,394 --> 00:39:36,993
Speaker 1: But now, because this choice is.

802
00:39:36,954 --> 00:39:40,154
Speaker 2: Being made and we're almost going in these two cabs,

803
00:39:40,594 --> 00:39:43,834
Speaker 2: you can see it. Yeah, you go, oh, there is

804
00:39:43,874 --> 00:39:47,594
Speaker 2: a life where I didn't and I can see it

805
00:39:47,634 --> 00:39:49,634
Speaker 2: and taste it and touch it in a way that

806
00:39:49,674 --> 00:39:53,873
Speaker 2: maybe previous generations couldn't. Amelily did you relate to this well?

807
00:39:53,954 --> 00:39:57,234
Speaker 3: I thought it was very brave because I think it's

808
00:39:57,314 --> 00:40:00,514
Speaker 3: really hard for women to say something like what the

809
00:40:00,554 --> 00:40:03,434
Speaker 3: author says, which is that she can imagine a life

810
00:40:03,594 --> 00:40:07,114
Speaker 3: without her child, which would be a perfectly nice, fulfilling one,

811
00:40:07,554 --> 00:40:10,954
Speaker 3: because the cliche is I can't imagine my life with

812
00:40:11,034 --> 00:40:14,794
Speaker 3: that little kid in it. And I just love that

813
00:40:14,954 --> 00:40:19,354
Speaker 3: she felt brave enough to put this, to put this

814
00:40:19,474 --> 00:40:21,554
Speaker 3: down on paper, because I do think it will be

815
00:40:21,674 --> 00:40:26,194
Speaker 3: very helpful for women who caught in this choice, and

816
00:40:26,314 --> 00:40:28,554
Speaker 3: I think a lot of women struggle with this choice.

817
00:40:28,594 --> 00:40:32,354
Speaker 3: And my microgeneration, although we're both millennials, I feel that

818
00:40:33,354 --> 00:40:36,234
Speaker 3: I'm older than you, and I think that we didn't

819
00:40:36,234 --> 00:40:39,794
Speaker 3: have as much openness around this conversation, as even you

820
00:40:39,874 --> 00:40:42,913
Speaker 3: did a few years later on. It was very much

821
00:40:42,914 --> 00:40:47,154
Speaker 3: seen as a default for elder millennials that you would

822
00:40:47,234 --> 00:40:50,873
Speaker 3: have children eventually. So I love that she's opening up

823
00:40:50,994 --> 00:40:54,794
Speaker 3: a debate that I felt that my microgeneration just didn't have.

824
00:40:54,874 --> 00:40:56,754
Speaker 3: Do you feel like that.

825
00:40:56,834 --> 00:40:59,034
Speaker 4: Was I think it's funny how we all see our

826
00:40:59,074 --> 00:41:03,114
Speaker 4: own generations as being, you know, trailblazing in some way

827
00:41:03,194 --> 00:41:06,234
Speaker 4: or another, because I gen X in a way started

828
00:41:06,434 --> 00:41:09,194
Speaker 4: the not settling down in the early years, you know.

829
00:41:09,674 --> 00:41:12,114
Speaker 4: I often say this, Like my really core group of

830
00:41:12,154 --> 00:41:14,714
Speaker 4: friends from sort of that I met at Union, used

831
00:41:14,714 --> 00:41:16,873
Speaker 4: to live with and everything in London, we are exactly

832
00:41:16,914 --> 00:41:18,954
Speaker 4: fifty to fifty on whether or not we became parents.

833
00:41:18,994 --> 00:41:21,234
Speaker 4: There are six of us, three did, three didn't. That's

834
00:41:21,234 --> 00:41:25,154
Speaker 4: it And I think it's really and I have no

835
00:41:25,474 --> 00:41:28,594
Speaker 4: strong opinions about whether or not anybody should or shouldn't.

836
00:41:28,954 --> 00:41:33,354
Speaker 4: What I think is actually really good is somebody saying

837
00:41:34,074 --> 00:41:35,794
Speaker 4: and I get your point, Jesse. I think that in

838
00:41:35,834 --> 00:41:37,873
Speaker 4: some ways there was a long time where women weren't

839
00:41:37,874 --> 00:41:40,714
Speaker 4: allowed to say anything negative about parenting, and then we,

840
00:41:40,834 --> 00:41:42,834
Speaker 4: like the Internet, in a way, open the floodgates for

841
00:41:42,914 --> 00:41:44,674
Speaker 4: women to be able to express a lot of things

842
00:41:44,674 --> 00:41:49,393
Speaker 4: about parenting that were previously unsaid, and it does feel

843
00:41:49,394 --> 00:41:51,553
Speaker 4: at times like a massive winge fest. And I think

844
00:41:51,554 --> 00:41:53,194
Speaker 4: there has been a correction in that.

845
00:41:53,674 --> 00:41:56,034
Speaker 2: If you spent twenty four hours on the internet, you

846
00:41:56,074 --> 00:41:57,674
Speaker 2: would not be convinced have children.

847
00:41:57,754 --> 00:42:01,354
Speaker 4: But then again, it is really hard having children, Like

848
00:42:01,474 --> 00:42:04,393
Speaker 4: it's and I know you have to immediately follow that

849
00:42:04,514 --> 00:42:07,194
Speaker 4: up with but it's wonderful and I love them, and

850
00:42:07,234 --> 00:42:08,993
Speaker 4: I wouldn't have made a different choice, and all those

851
00:42:09,034 --> 00:42:12,594
Speaker 4: things are true. But the moments when it's very hard,

852
00:42:12,914 --> 00:42:16,474
Speaker 4: and I have found it very hard, particularly a particular stages,

853
00:42:16,514 --> 00:42:20,794
Speaker 4: with particular challenges. I have often thought, imagine trying to

854
00:42:20,834 --> 00:42:25,074
Speaker 4: do this with not the advantages that I have, without

855
00:42:25,074 --> 00:42:28,194
Speaker 4: whatever support I did have, and if I hadn't really

856
00:42:28,234 --> 00:42:30,873
Speaker 4: wanted to do it, do you know what I mean? Like,

857
00:42:31,674 --> 00:42:34,354
Speaker 4: I think it is one of the things in life

858
00:42:34,394 --> 00:42:37,754
Speaker 4: that you really should want to do. To do it,

859
00:42:38,034 --> 00:42:39,433
Speaker 4: I think there are plenty of things that you can

860
00:42:39,474 --> 00:42:41,474
Speaker 4: feel ambivalent about and go, sure, I want to go

861
00:42:41,514 --> 00:42:44,354
Speaker 4: to Thailand, I don't care, you know, But having kids,

862
00:42:44,394 --> 00:42:46,834
Speaker 4: I actually think is a very serious choice. We could

863
00:42:46,834 --> 00:42:50,834
Speaker 4: all look around the world and go those parents probably

864
00:42:50,834 --> 00:42:53,674
Speaker 4: shouldn't have had kids. That person probably shouldn't have had kid.

865
00:42:54,034 --> 00:42:58,274
Speaker 4: That person's unhappy, that person's fucking them up. And again,

866
00:42:58,314 --> 00:43:00,514
Speaker 4: I don't want to sound harsh, there's no such thing

867
00:43:00,554 --> 00:43:04,354
Speaker 4: as perfect parenting. I'm certainly not that, but I don't

868
00:43:04,394 --> 00:43:06,314
Speaker 4: think you should just do it if you don't want

869
00:43:06,354 --> 00:43:06,514
Speaker 4: to know.

870
00:43:06,634 --> 00:43:09,434
Speaker 3: And it is, it is a serious responsibility. It reminds

871
00:43:09,474 --> 00:43:12,394
Speaker 3: me of another article I read this week about someone

872
00:43:12,434 --> 00:43:15,154
Speaker 3: who tried a self driving car. She was in Melbourne,

873
00:43:15,234 --> 00:43:17,394
Speaker 3: and I guess she'd tried like a sort of Tesla,

874
00:43:17,754 --> 00:43:21,514
Speaker 3: a new type of Tesla that's self driving, and she

875
00:43:21,714 --> 00:43:23,994
Speaker 3: was scared to use it at first, and then she

876
00:43:24,154 --> 00:43:26,634
Speaker 3: discovered how lovely it was for the car to drive

877
00:43:26,634 --> 00:43:29,314
Speaker 3: itself around the city streets. And she wrote in this

878
00:43:29,474 --> 00:43:33,433
Speaker 3: article that she realized, having experienced that that driving is

879
00:43:33,474 --> 00:43:38,074
Speaker 3: a huge responsibility that we just casually take on every day.

880
00:43:38,874 --> 00:43:41,993
Speaker 3: Just because something is common or widespread, or we all

881
00:43:42,034 --> 00:43:44,354
Speaker 3: do it or most of us do it, doesn't mean

882
00:43:44,754 --> 00:43:47,873
Speaker 3: that it's not a serious commitment and responsibility. Yeah.

883
00:43:47,914 --> 00:43:52,634
Speaker 2: I guess my other concern with it, that actually isn't

884
00:43:52,634 --> 00:43:57,513
Speaker 2: about this article, but more about the broader conversation, is

885
00:43:57,994 --> 00:44:00,714
Speaker 2: that sometimes there's this tendency to talk about kids like

886
00:44:00,714 --> 00:44:04,914
Speaker 2: their these accessories that you choose to have to enrich

887
00:44:05,034 --> 00:44:08,514
Speaker 2: your life, and they either enriched your life enough or

888
00:44:08,554 --> 00:44:13,954
Speaker 2: they didn't enrich your life enough, and we write about

889
00:44:13,994 --> 00:44:17,074
Speaker 2: them as though they will never read the words that

890
00:44:17,114 --> 00:44:19,314
Speaker 2: we write about them. There are there are sometimes things

891
00:44:19,354 --> 00:44:22,034
Speaker 2: I read on the Internet and I'm very in this

892
00:44:22,074 --> 00:44:26,314
Speaker 2: parenting space where I go, if your kid reads out

893
00:44:26,314 --> 00:44:28,794
Speaker 2: one day, they'll be horrified, like what if there is

894
00:44:28,634 --> 00:44:31,433
Speaker 2: this conversation or this thought in the back of all

895
00:44:31,434 --> 00:44:33,873
Speaker 2: these parents' heads that's like, oh, there's a world in

896
00:44:33,914 --> 00:44:34,674
Speaker 2: which I didn't have.

897
00:44:34,634 --> 00:44:39,834
Speaker 4: You like or But again, I understand why it's sensitive

898
00:44:39,834 --> 00:44:41,594
Speaker 4: about that. And there are some There is an article

899
00:44:41,634 --> 00:44:44,593
Speaker 4: that I read in Grazia magazine years and years ago

900
00:44:44,634 --> 00:44:46,594
Speaker 4: that sticks in my head because it was a woman

901
00:44:46,634 --> 00:44:50,234
Speaker 4: and she named herself talking about her favorite child, and

902
00:44:50,314 --> 00:44:52,954
Speaker 4: she had two kids, and one of them was a

903
00:44:52,994 --> 00:44:56,993
Speaker 4: bloody delight and the other one was difficult and had

904
00:44:56,994 --> 00:44:59,634
Speaker 4: tantrums every time they went to the supermarket and d

905
00:44:59,794 --> 00:45:03,194
Speaker 4: Now that has stuck in my mind because I thought

906
00:45:03,354 --> 00:45:09,714
Speaker 4: that is unforgivable. That is absolutely unforgivable and narcissistic and

907
00:45:09,794 --> 00:45:10,514
Speaker 4: all those things.

908
00:45:10,994 --> 00:45:11,754
Speaker 6: But there's a.

909
00:45:11,674 --> 00:45:13,953
Speaker 4: Degree here, and I think there are worse things in

910
00:45:13,954 --> 00:45:16,034
Speaker 4: the world for a kid to hear than I had

911
00:45:16,074 --> 00:45:18,433
Speaker 4: a life before you, you know what I mean, and

912
00:45:18,514 --> 00:45:21,074
Speaker 4: it was fine. There are many worse things for a

913
00:45:21,114 --> 00:45:24,514
Speaker 4: kid to know than that. I actually think it's really healthy,

914
00:45:24,714 --> 00:45:27,754
Speaker 4: like for your kids to know absolutely love you to bits,

915
00:45:27,994 --> 00:45:30,034
Speaker 4: but you know what, things were fine before you came along?

916
00:45:30,234 --> 00:45:31,074
Speaker 6: Like, what's wrong with that?

917
00:45:31,354 --> 00:45:31,553
Speaker 3: Yeah?

918
00:45:31,634 --> 00:45:32,354
Speaker 6: Is that a bad thing?

919
00:45:32,434 --> 00:45:35,114
Speaker 3: I remember? I'm thinking you'll be fine after you leave.

920
00:45:35,114 --> 00:45:37,473
Speaker 4: Two, when you're off living your life and I'm just

921
00:45:37,474 --> 00:45:39,034
Speaker 4: someone you have to call once a week.

922
00:45:39,314 --> 00:45:41,554
Speaker 6: I'm gonna be all right. Like, is that a terrible

923
00:45:41,594 --> 00:45:42,594
Speaker 6: thing for a child to know?

924
00:45:42,634 --> 00:45:44,794
Speaker 4: As long as they are loved, as long as they

925
00:45:44,874 --> 00:45:47,473
Speaker 4: know how like they are your top priority day to day.

926
00:45:47,914 --> 00:45:50,114
Speaker 4: Is it really so awful for your kids to know

927
00:45:50,234 --> 00:45:52,714
Speaker 4: that you weren't their only choice, that they weren't your

928
00:45:52,794 --> 00:45:53,514
Speaker 4: only choice.

929
00:45:53,594 --> 00:45:55,754
Speaker 2: No, I guess just always looking at them through the

930
00:45:55,794 --> 00:45:58,154
Speaker 2: prism of like, how are you enriching my life?

931
00:45:58,234 --> 00:46:00,194
Speaker 4: I agree with you about that, And that's one of

932
00:46:00,274 --> 00:46:02,554
Speaker 4: the things that the discourse about whether or not to

933
00:46:02,634 --> 00:46:04,594
Speaker 4: have kids that is always focused on whether or not

934
00:46:04,594 --> 00:46:05,834
Speaker 4: you can go out for drinks or whether or not

935
00:46:05,954 --> 00:46:10,554
Speaker 4: you're is that's because all that stuff is entirely transient.

936
00:46:10,594 --> 00:46:11,754
Speaker 4: There will be a point in your life where you

937
00:46:11,754 --> 00:46:13,914
Speaker 4: don't want to do that stuff anyway. All those things,

938
00:46:14,474 --> 00:46:14,873
Speaker 4: and I.

939
00:46:14,794 --> 00:46:16,914
Speaker 6: Agree with that is that it shouldn't be about will.

940
00:46:16,794 --> 00:46:20,274
Speaker 4: They make my life better? That the people who think that,

941
00:46:20,394 --> 00:46:23,234
Speaker 4: the people who get the rude is shot. It will

942
00:46:23,274 --> 00:46:25,314
Speaker 4: make your life better if you want to do it,

943
00:46:25,554 --> 00:46:28,674
Speaker 4: but in all the ways you couldn't possibly imagine before.

944
00:46:29,074 --> 00:46:31,834
Speaker 4: And this is why it's tricky being a parent talking

945
00:46:31,834 --> 00:46:34,714
Speaker 4: about this, because the thing is parents have been non parents,

946
00:46:34,714 --> 00:46:38,194
Speaker 4: but non parents haven't been parents, so you can't really

947
00:46:38,794 --> 00:46:40,394
Speaker 4: express those things equally.

948
00:46:40,514 --> 00:46:41,953
Speaker 1: You're speaking a different language.

949
00:46:42,434 --> 00:46:44,634
Speaker 4: But the idea that it is something that you should

950
00:46:44,714 --> 00:46:46,834
Speaker 4: just do without thinking about very much. I don't think

951
00:46:46,874 --> 00:46:47,194
Speaker 4: it's good.

952
00:46:47,674 --> 00:46:50,754
Speaker 2: I asked my dad, but after I had learner, I went,

953
00:46:50,794 --> 00:46:53,474
Speaker 2: when did you decide that? When were you sure you

954
00:46:53,554 --> 00:46:54,634
Speaker 2: really wanted to have kids?

955
00:46:54,914 --> 00:46:55,993
Speaker 6: And Dad was like what?

956
00:46:57,114 --> 00:46:59,634
Speaker 2: And it became clear to me and I then like

957
00:46:59,714 --> 00:47:03,834
Speaker 2: relooked at like his entire life through the thing of oh,

958
00:47:03,914 --> 00:47:07,794
Speaker 2: that generation never decided to have children, like they never

959
00:47:08,314 --> 00:47:10,754
Speaker 2: What difference does does that make?

960
00:47:10,834 --> 00:47:11,033
Speaker 3: Too?

961
00:47:11,514 --> 00:47:14,194
Speaker 2: Like that that the sense of whether or not you

962
00:47:14,234 --> 00:47:16,314
Speaker 2: had a choice in this and in the way that

963
00:47:16,354 --> 00:47:18,873
Speaker 2: your family how many kids. Of course my nan didn't

964
00:47:18,874 --> 00:47:21,154
Speaker 2: have a choice about how many kids she had, and like,

965
00:47:21,354 --> 00:47:24,314
Speaker 2: what does that do to your sense of agency and

966
00:47:25,394 --> 00:47:28,154
Speaker 2: stuff over your life? So I guess it's just it's

967
00:47:28,234 --> 00:47:32,794
Speaker 2: shifted dramatically, but I don't know I find this.

968
00:47:33,474 --> 00:47:36,554
Speaker 4: I want some people to bombard Jesse with positive stories

969
00:47:36,594 --> 00:47:37,154
Speaker 4: about twins.

970
00:47:37,354 --> 00:47:38,513
Speaker 6: Yes, And I also want to.

971
00:47:38,434 --> 00:47:39,754
Speaker 4: Remind you, even though you're going to punch me in

972
00:47:39,794 --> 00:47:42,913
Speaker 4: the face, is that when you're pregnant, little Learner, you

973
00:47:42,954 --> 00:47:44,594
Speaker 4: felt the same way. And I know this is different

974
00:47:44,634 --> 00:47:47,873
Speaker 4: because this is a much rarer and more unusual occurrence,

975
00:47:48,274 --> 00:47:50,794
Speaker 4: but one of your biggest surprises about being a mother

976
00:47:50,914 --> 00:47:53,114
Speaker 4: was how much you loved it. Maybe the biggest surprise

977
00:47:53,354 --> 00:47:55,794
Speaker 4: was the lot and how much joy you've found in it.

978
00:47:56,794 --> 00:47:59,794
Speaker 6: And you know you've already lived this lesson.

979
00:47:59,834 --> 00:48:03,993
Speaker 2: I remember saying, Guys, I'm like, it's really and we've had,

980
00:48:04,074 --> 00:48:06,433
Speaker 2: you know, lots of challenges and blah blah blah and

981
00:48:06,554 --> 00:48:09,393
Speaker 2: had our day, but guys, is great and people would

982
00:48:09,394 --> 00:48:13,553
Speaker 2: go Swayne until she's blut shat aut.

983
00:48:13,674 --> 00:48:19,194
Speaker 4: I agree with you let's shut up about scaring the parents. Yeah,

984
00:48:21,234 --> 00:48:24,434
Speaker 4: out louders, That is all we have time for today.

985
00:48:24,634 --> 00:48:27,034
Speaker 4: I hope you have enjoyed our Wednesday show. Thank you

986
00:48:27,074 --> 00:48:30,554
Speaker 4: for listening. Remember we are on YouTube and if you

987
00:48:30,754 --> 00:48:33,634
Speaker 4: haven't seen that Ciena Miller picture I'm talking about, or

988
00:48:33,674 --> 00:48:37,914
Speaker 4: you want to see Amelia talk about fartwalks in person,

989
00:48:38,474 --> 00:48:40,473
Speaker 4: go follow us on YouTube and.

990
00:48:40,434 --> 00:48:42,274
Speaker 2: Go to our Instagram because we'll post that picture of

991
00:48:42,674 --> 00:48:46,034
Speaker 2: Ciena Miller. Go follow us there and out louders. I

992
00:48:46,074 --> 00:48:50,074
Speaker 2: have very exciting news. It is the festive season. We

993
00:48:50,154 --> 00:48:52,474
Speaker 2: are in December and so it's not just Tollie and

994
00:48:52,474 --> 00:48:55,274
Speaker 2: I who are getting gifts. There is a very exciting

995
00:48:55,314 --> 00:48:59,194
Speaker 2: giveaway that we're doing a subscriber giveaway, but we are

996
00:48:59,234 --> 00:49:02,714
Speaker 2: giving you the chance to win something to the Ultimate

997
00:49:02,754 --> 00:49:06,114
Speaker 2: cruise holiday for two. The best part is the winner

998
00:49:06,394 --> 00:49:10,674
Speaker 2: can pick any Royal Caribbean cruise destination in Australia and

999
00:49:10,714 --> 00:49:14,154
Speaker 2: New Zealand or the South Pacific in twenty twenty six.

1000
00:49:14,234 --> 00:49:15,394
Speaker 2: You can choose your own adventure.

1001
00:49:15,434 --> 00:49:16,234
Speaker 3: That's so cool.

1002
00:49:16,234 --> 00:49:18,474
Speaker 2: So whin a holiday. If you want to be in

1003
00:49:18,474 --> 00:49:20,714
Speaker 2: the running to win, all you have to do is

1004
00:49:20,794 --> 00:49:24,393
Speaker 2: become a mum mea subscriber by December fourteen. And of course,

1005
00:49:24,394 --> 00:49:27,554
Speaker 2: if you are already a subscriber, you're already in the running.

1006
00:49:27,634 --> 00:49:30,634
Speaker 2: Don't lift a finger. There's a link with all the

1007
00:49:30,674 --> 00:49:34,034
Speaker 2: details t's and c's in the show notes and good luck.

1008
00:49:34,834 --> 00:49:37,314
Speaker 3: And look, Jersey, do you think I can enter that

1009
00:49:37,994 --> 00:49:38,913
Speaker 3: in the TNCs?

1010
00:49:39,514 --> 00:49:41,554
Speaker 1: Do you pay for a subscription? Em Elia Leicester?

1011
00:49:42,114 --> 00:49:44,474
Speaker 3: Okay, just say check. But look, if you listen to

1012
00:49:44,514 --> 00:49:48,834
Speaker 3: this show and you already love a good cultural unraveling,

1013
00:49:48,994 --> 00:49:51,354
Speaker 3: we know you do. That's why you love this show.

1014
00:49:51,834 --> 00:49:54,994
Speaker 3: You will love the waight Why is this happening? Energy

1015
00:49:55,194 --> 00:49:58,994
Speaker 3: on parenting Out Loud? It's out Loud, sister show, It's me,

1016
00:49:59,394 --> 00:50:03,074
Speaker 3: it's Monique Bowley, It's Stacy Hicks, and we are pulling

1017
00:50:03,194 --> 00:50:07,114
Speaker 3: pop culture apart. We are dissecting it through a parenting lens.

1018
00:50:07,274 --> 00:50:10,074
Speaker 3: And this week we look at the social media ban

1019
00:50:10,434 --> 00:50:14,514
Speaker 3: and Mom's asks whether this is the seatbelt moment of

1020
00:50:14,554 --> 00:50:16,994
Speaker 3: this generation. She'll explain what she means by that. She

1021
00:50:17,154 --> 00:50:20,074
Speaker 3: is convinced that this is going to change things for

1022
00:50:20,314 --> 00:50:24,434
Speaker 3: a whole generation of kids. Stacy takes on Instagram's last

1023
00:50:24,474 --> 00:50:27,274
Speaker 3: time trend. You know, when they're all all those soppy

1024
00:50:27,354 --> 00:50:29,634
Speaker 3: posts that are like, when's the last time your kid

1025
00:50:29,714 --> 00:50:32,794
Speaker 3: held your hand? Like we hate that, we talk about why.

1026
00:50:33,434 --> 00:50:37,034
Speaker 3: And there's a Royal Christmas tree that absolutely sent me

1027
00:50:37,074 --> 00:50:39,794
Speaker 3: into a shame spiral and you'll have to listen to

1028
00:50:39,834 --> 00:50:42,434
Speaker 3: find out what it was. So follow Parenting out Loud

1029
00:50:42,514 --> 00:50:44,034
Speaker 3: and listen every Saturday.

1030
00:50:44,434 --> 00:50:46,594
Speaker 4: Massive thank you to our amazing team for helping us

1031
00:50:46,594 --> 00:50:48,073
Speaker 4: put the show together today and.

1032
00:50:48,034 --> 00:50:49,274
Speaker 6: We will see you tomorrow.

1033
00:50:49,514 --> 00:50:53,994
Speaker 1: Bye.

1034
00:50:59,554 --> 00:51:02,354
Speaker 2: Mum and Mayor acknowledges the traditional owners of the land

1035
00:51:02,394 --> 00:51:04,194
Speaker 2: on which we have recorded this podcast.