WEBVTT - The Exact Age A "Hot Mess" Is No Longer Cute 0:00:10.622 --> 0:00:13.342 You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. 0:00:13.822 --> 0:00:17.182 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:17.222 --> 0:00:18.782 that this podcast is recorded on. 0:00:20.142 --> 0:00:21.582 Like I know that your twenties are for being a 0:00:21.582 --> 0:00:24.102 hot mess, I did sort of assume that by your 0:00:24.102 --> 0:00:26.342 forties and fifties you don't feel like a hot mess anymore? 0:00:26.502 --> 0:00:26.942 Am I riter? 0:00:27.101 --> 0:00:28.422 Am I? No, you feel hot? 0:00:33.662 --> 0:00:36.302 Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud and to 0:00:36.382 --> 0:00:39.942 our Friday show, where we lean into our toxic selfish sides, 0:00:40.101 --> 0:00:43.862 shut out the world, and practice self care. No news 0:00:43.942 --> 0:00:47.942 here today, friends, Today It's Friday, the fourteenth of February, 0:00:48.022 --> 0:00:50.422 which I think is an auspicious date of some kind. 0:00:50.582 --> 0:00:53.422 I'm here ring a bell, I'm here with my valentines. 0:00:53.542 --> 0:00:56.142 I am Holly Wayne right, I'm mea Friedman. 0:00:55.902 --> 0:00:58.822 And I'm Jesse Stevens. And can I ask you, guys 0:00:58.822 --> 0:01:00.742 something that's been playing on my mind. It's a very 0:01:00.742 --> 0:01:04.422 specific dilemma that I had. Okay, the other day I 0:01:04.462 --> 0:01:08.182 had a dentist appointment booked for after work, and I 0:01:08.222 --> 0:01:10.982 was speaking to my husband, who works here, and I thought, 0:01:10.982 --> 0:01:12.581 I got to go to the dentist stuff to work, 0:01:12.982 --> 0:01:15.542 and he said, did you bring your toothbrush, and I 0:01:15.582 --> 0:01:19.342 said no, and he said, you wouldn't go to the 0:01:19.382 --> 0:01:21.862 dentist without brushing your teeth first, because obviously I'd brushed 0:01:21.862 --> 0:01:23.182 my teeth ate hot. 0:01:23.262 --> 0:01:24.782 But had you eaten anything after that? 0:01:25.542 --> 0:01:28.302 Eat breakfast, luncheon, smack everything. 0:01:28.822 --> 0:01:31.462 And then my appointment was at say five point thirty. 0:01:32.022 --> 0:01:35.382 He was horrified that I was going to raw dog 0:01:35.462 --> 0:01:37.662 the dentist with unbrushed teeth. 0:01:38.102 --> 0:01:39.902 How's can the dentist even see anything? 0:01:40.462 --> 0:01:43.222 I have never brushed my teeth before. I've got to 0:01:43.262 --> 0:01:49.462 the d with you that what's supposed to happen? They 0:01:49.542 --> 0:01:50.942 clean your teeth, don't. 0:01:50.742 --> 0:01:53.102 They don't like is it respect? 0:01:53.702 --> 0:01:55.622 I wrensed my mouth with some I'm like, I'm not 0:01:55.622 --> 0:01:57.502 going in there with like coffee breather, big bits of 0:01:57.542 --> 0:01:58.742 green sticking. 0:01:58.342 --> 0:02:01.142 Out, Like is it like having a shower before perhaps me? 0:02:01.702 --> 0:02:01.902 Yeah? 0:02:02.062 --> 0:02:04.142 What what? 0:02:05.862 --> 0:02:10.102 Holly HOLLI fanny after the gym, because you you might have. 0:02:10.102 --> 0:02:13.302 To rock up from the gym. But if I'm past 0:02:13.302 --> 0:02:14.462 straight into the stirrups. 0:02:14.942 --> 0:02:18.181 If my peraps appointment was like at eleven and I'd 0:02:18.181 --> 0:02:20.702 had my shower at seven, I'm not gonna have another 0:02:20.702 --> 0:02:21.462 one before I go. 0:02:21.702 --> 0:02:23.462 No, no, no, no, but you wouldn't book it for 0:02:23.502 --> 0:02:24.862 eight pm after ante. 0:02:25.382 --> 0:02:27.222 No, I think we have it. We like it. Had 0:02:27.262 --> 0:02:29.222 to have our paps mews in the morning because we're 0:02:29.662 --> 0:02:32.662 consider it. But also we brush our teeth before we 0:02:32.702 --> 0:02:35.982 go to the dentist, and we wear nice Sundays when 0:02:35.982 --> 0:02:37.902 we go for our paps mere and then we fold 0:02:37.942 --> 0:02:39.142 them and put them under our clothes. 0:02:39.222 --> 0:02:40.502 We wash our hair before the hair dress. 0:02:40.622 --> 0:02:43.901 Oh yeah, no, they wash your hair. That's the poio. 0:02:44.502 --> 0:02:46.102 You have to make sure you do this. 0:02:46.582 --> 0:02:49.382 That's the king. Shake the knits out of your hair 0:02:49.422 --> 0:02:50.702 before you come to the hair dress. 0:02:50.902 --> 0:02:53.662 I want I want out loud a dentists to go. 0:02:53.862 --> 0:02:56.462 You know what, this is a great Can you please 0:02:56.462 --> 0:02:57.702 brush your teeth? Your dirty bitches? 0:02:57.982 --> 0:03:03.262 Order order or restored to the Mama Mere Out Loud 0:03:03.262 --> 0:03:04.302 Friday shows. 0:03:04.342 --> 0:03:06.742 Some things we're just understood. 0:03:07.022 --> 0:03:11.742 Okay. On the show today, Bridget Jones is back. But 0:03:12.342 --> 0:03:15.542 why do we struggle with hot mess women when bumbling 0:03:15.622 --> 0:03:18.982 and burning the spaghetti is no longer cute? Plus, Mia 0:03:18.982 --> 0:03:21.262 and Jesse have brilliant books to recommend, and I have 0:03:21.342 --> 0:03:25.102 a TV self soothing classic and best and words of 0:03:25.102 --> 0:03:28.621 the week, including red Carpets, Tantrums, and the Bunning Sausage Isle. No, 0:03:28.862 --> 0:03:31.901 those things didn't all happen at the same time. But first, 0:03:31.942 --> 0:03:32.982 Mia Friedman. 0:03:32.782 --> 0:03:35.662 What type of bread are you? In case you missed it, 0:03:35.822 --> 0:03:37.102 I know you're about to answer. 0:03:38.102 --> 0:03:40.142 I've thought about it a lot. 0:03:40.782 --> 0:03:43.502 In case you missed it, every star sign is a 0:03:43.502 --> 0:03:46.102 particular type of bread, and since bread is my favorite 0:03:46.102 --> 0:03:48.822 food group and I am the bread correspondent on this podcast, 0:03:49.502 --> 0:03:51.262 I'm here for it, or at least I was here 0:03:51.262 --> 0:03:53.422 for it until I found out which one I was. 0:03:53.782 --> 0:03:57.262 We came across a post by an account called Zodiac's Tea, 0:03:57.422 --> 0:04:03.102 which sounds totally legitimate, and it basically divides all star 0:04:03.222 --> 0:04:06.662 signs into breads. I'm going to start with mine, okay, 0:04:06.702 --> 0:04:08.902 And the problem is I can't pronounce it, and that's 0:04:08.942 --> 0:04:12.702 apparently one of its distinctive features. I'm a Libra and 0:04:13.142 --> 0:04:17.662 the bread I am is called Queen armand it all. 0:04:17.861 --> 0:04:21.342 It's a French pastry that sounds right and its qualities. 0:04:21.782 --> 0:04:24.142 One of its qualities are that it enjoys you not 0:04:24.262 --> 0:04:27.301 being able to pronounce its name, and it needs to 0:04:27.342 --> 0:04:31.622 outniche everyone. It's sweet, it's puffed up, it's layers. 0:04:31.621 --> 0:04:34.342 Oh my god, it sounds right, it sounds right. It 0:04:34.381 --> 0:04:37.861 would be the founcy bread, you know, the poodle bread. 0:04:38.022 --> 0:04:40.502 You know that Holly and I are the same star sign. 0:04:40.702 --> 0:04:43.662 What would you get? I would go wonder white. 0:04:43.702 --> 0:04:47.902 We're the opposite of because your basic bitches. I would 0:04:47.941 --> 0:04:50.261 say that you are both wonder white, but not with 0:04:50.421 --> 0:04:56.501 extra fiber, just no straight, not particularly fixed, sliced, just 0:04:56.902 --> 0:05:02.301 almost on sale, almost no frills. Sagittarius, you are nut 0:05:02.421 --> 0:05:07.261 and seed bread. You are always on the go, adventurous 0:05:07.541 --> 0:05:13.741 maximalists at heart, into wellness culture, bold, nutty, and unpredictable. 0:05:14.181 --> 0:05:17.301 It knows I like Gwyneth bread knows I like Gwene. 0:05:17.421 --> 0:05:18.581 That doesn't sound like either of you. 0:05:18.702 --> 0:05:21.142 Into wellness culture follows Goop Instagram. 0:05:21.301 --> 0:05:23.342 Throw Throw a couple of other star signs at me, 0:05:23.381 --> 0:05:28.061 and I'll tell you what Taurus. Taurus is sourdough, which 0:05:28.101 --> 0:05:30.861 is actually my favorite. That's my favorite too, crisp, solid, 0:05:30.941 --> 0:05:33.061 high maintenance and has a rustic charm. 0:05:33.301 --> 0:05:37.381 I have a few leos in my family. Garlic bread, yes, oh, 0:05:37.421 --> 0:05:37.981 I like that. 0:05:38.101 --> 0:05:40.541 They can't help the popular, can't help it. They're popular, 0:05:40.662 --> 0:05:45.222 indulgent loves herbs, stands out at parties or large gatherings. 0:05:45.462 --> 0:05:49.861 Many of my important people are Geminis, Maya and he Geminis. 0:05:49.941 --> 0:05:54.621 That Gemini is lemon blueberry bread, which frankly sounds like cake. 0:05:55.301 --> 0:05:57.662 Everybody's got exciting bread except for me and you. We've 0:05:57.662 --> 0:05:59.061 got the bread that everybody hates. 0:05:59.181 --> 0:06:01.262 Yeah, that's good for your bad yea that you have. 0:06:01.181 --> 0:06:02.782 To eat it when the doctor's told you to. 0:06:03.262 --> 0:06:07.222 Geminis and lemon blueberry bread bright stimulating. With them, you 0:06:07.262 --> 0:06:09.142 get the best of both worlds. They're never dull and 0:06:09.222 --> 0:06:12.462 especial shout out to poor scorpios who are pumpin nicole, 0:06:12.782 --> 0:06:16.981 sweet but also dark, hard to digest and an acquiet taste, 0:06:17.501 --> 0:06:18.902 but also nostalgic. 0:06:19.222 --> 0:06:21.262 Is this what happens when the news cycle is like this? 0:06:22.142 --> 0:06:22.781 What spread? 0:06:22.782 --> 0:06:23.021 Am I? 0:06:23.301 --> 0:06:26.662 Yeah? Because that seems like I can digest that. 0:06:27.462 --> 0:06:29.741 For everyone else, we are going to put your bread 0:06:29.782 --> 0:06:33.181 up on the mummy out loud Instagram and let us know, 0:06:33.301 --> 0:06:35.461 let us know if it is correct for you. 0:06:36.301 --> 0:06:37.822 So, so. 0:06:40.181 --> 0:06:41.742 You stay at your parents for New Year? 0:06:42.702 --> 0:06:42.902 Yes? 0:06:43.902 --> 0:06:44.421 Yeah? 0:06:44.501 --> 0:06:46.501 Oh no, no no no, it's in London at a party 0:06:46.582 --> 0:06:47.062 last night. 0:06:47.142 --> 0:06:49.741 So I'm afraid I'm a bit hungover. Or she could 0:06:49.741 --> 0:06:51.381 be lying with my head and a toilet that I 0:06:51.421 --> 0:06:52.421 call normal people. 0:06:53.462 --> 0:06:56.342 There are some female fictional characters who are just part 0:06:56.381 --> 0:06:58.541 of the culture at this point, and one of them 0:06:58.621 --> 0:07:01.381 is Bridget Jones, who is back this week in the 0:07:01.421 --> 0:07:03.981 fourth film. It's called Mad About the Boy. We kind 0:07:04.022 --> 0:07:06.621 of talked about it when the trailer came out. She's widowed, 0:07:07.181 --> 0:07:09.542 she's got two primary school edged kids. 0:07:09.702 --> 0:07:12.142 Mister Darcy died, and that's not a spoiler because it's 0:07:12.182 --> 0:07:13.102 even in the trailer. It is. 0:07:13.142 --> 0:07:15.381 It's in the trailer, and it happens very early on, well, 0:07:15.462 --> 0:07:19.261 the acknowledgment of it does. It's actually quite sad anyway, 0:07:19.342 --> 0:07:22.222 and then maybe predictably for twenty twenty five, she has 0:07:22.422 --> 0:07:24.782 a fling with a younger guy who's that hot one 0:07:24.782 --> 0:07:28.062 from White Lotus, and then other things happen. We won't 0:07:28.102 --> 0:07:34.462 spoil it for you anyway. Bridget Jones traitor, as anti feminist, hopeless, romantic, bumbling, bombshell. 0:07:34.622 --> 0:07:37.782 All these tags are fair calls for the character the 0:07:37.821 --> 0:07:41.902 British journalist Helen Fielding created in the nineties. Now at 0:07:41.902 --> 0:07:44.021 the time, and I remember this very clearly. I read 0:07:44.062 --> 0:07:46.261 all the books before, well, I read the books that 0:07:46.302 --> 0:07:49.262 were out before the movie, and I loved them at 0:07:49.302 --> 0:07:52.702 the time, she was groundbreaking, which is really hard to believe. 0:07:53.062 --> 0:07:54.982 She was a voice for single women that hadn't really 0:07:55.022 --> 0:07:57.262 been heard before. I mean, single women have a very 0:07:57.262 --> 0:08:01.982 particular type, like slightly posh, middle class white works in 0:08:02.022 --> 0:08:04.662 pr in London, Like it's a very particular vibe. 0:08:04.702 --> 0:08:06.662 But all the same, she was a hot mess. She 0:08:06.782 --> 0:08:09.422 was very much a hot That's what was refreshing because 0:08:09.462 --> 0:08:14.062 I think female characters predominantly, particularly in rom comms, had 0:08:14.102 --> 0:08:18.182 all been very perfect, kind of like Julia Roberts style. 0:08:18.542 --> 0:08:22.302 She'd been contrasted to the Sally in When Harry Home 0:08:23.142 --> 0:08:26.821 in terms of being very neat and ordered, and like 0:08:27.022 --> 0:08:29.142 we've talked on the show before about the difference between 0:08:29.142 --> 0:08:31.382 a poodle and a wolf. There's kind of these categories 0:08:31.422 --> 0:08:34.662 of women where a poodle is a woman who appears 0:08:34.702 --> 0:08:35.462 to have it all together. 0:08:35.622 --> 0:08:38.062 Maya, I'm a poodle, You're actually a poodle, ya. 0:08:38.342 --> 0:08:41.022 It's like interested in clothes and maybe you're better at 0:08:41.062 --> 0:08:43.262 being a woman. And then there's the wolf, which is 0:08:43.262 --> 0:08:45.942 Holly and I which is sometimes we've only got one 0:08:45.982 --> 0:08:49.422 earring on, got stains on our clothes, our hair always 0:08:49.502 --> 0:08:52.502 needs a brush, that kind of thing, and most of 0:08:52.542 --> 0:08:54.542 what was in rom comms was the poodle, and I 0:08:54.622 --> 0:08:55.862 think Bridget came along was like. 0:08:56.902 --> 0:08:59.381 And women loved her because she was honest. She worried 0:08:59.382 --> 0:09:01.142 about the size of her ass, she worried about how 0:09:01.182 --> 0:09:03.182 much she was drinking and smoking. She was attracted to 0:09:03.262 --> 0:09:05.902 the wrong men. She always felt like she was out 0:09:05.902 --> 0:09:09.182 of step with the poodles, Jesse, the neat, picture perfect 0:09:09.182 --> 0:09:10.942 couple and families all around her. 0:09:11.102 --> 0:09:14.702 And she was also portrayed as being overweight when you 0:09:14.702 --> 0:09:16.942 look back at it and realize where a lot of 0:09:16.982 --> 0:09:19.862 our body dysmorphia came from as gen x because. 0:09:19.582 --> 0:09:24.262 She ten in slight defense in the book, that was 0:09:24.302 --> 0:09:27.742 really refreshing because it was just real, you know now, 0:09:27.782 --> 0:09:30.062 And you'll notice in the new movies, and particularly this 0:09:30.102 --> 0:09:32.502 new one, there is absolutely no mention of weight, as 0:09:32.502 --> 0:09:36.142 there shouldn't be. But in a way, we've just airbrushed 0:09:36.142 --> 0:09:38.942 that conversation out because it is a conversation women have 0:09:38.942 --> 0:09:41.582 all the time anyway. It was an era of exploring 0:09:41.662 --> 0:09:45.262 chaotic women. Carrie Bradshaw was the much edgier American version 0:09:45.302 --> 0:09:48.142 of Bridget, and then came a slew of hot mess 0:09:48.182 --> 0:09:51.582 women who evolved over time from Bridget to girls Hannah 0:09:51.662 --> 0:09:55.782 Horvart and girls to Fleabag to its array and insecure. 0:09:56.382 --> 0:09:59.702 But now the oldest of the hot Messes, Bridget, the 0:09:59.782 --> 0:10:03.502 grandma of the group, is in the new movie fifty one, 0:10:03.782 --> 0:10:06.982 and we're a bit less comfortable, as seen by the 0:10:07.062 --> 0:10:10.422 mighty Carrie Bradshaw backlash of the en, like that era 0:10:11.022 --> 0:10:13.862 with properly grown up women not having their shit together, 0:10:14.502 --> 0:10:18.462 even though many of us actually don't maya what happens 0:10:18.702 --> 0:10:20.102 when the hot Messes grow up. 0:10:20.422 --> 0:10:23.062 I've had to really check myself on this because when 0:10:23.102 --> 0:10:24.942 I saw the film, and it was so lovely to 0:10:24.982 --> 0:10:28.742 spend time with those characters Hugh Grant in particular, You're right, 0:10:28.782 --> 0:10:32.302 it was emotional to see that glimpse of mister Darcy 0:10:32.502 --> 0:10:35.262 and see Bridget again, and it was lovely, like spending 0:10:35.302 --> 0:10:38.942 time with old friends. But there was something that grated 0:10:39.262 --> 0:10:44.982 on me about her incompetence, about that almost performative incompetence, 0:10:45.942 --> 0:10:47.942 Like part of me was like, well, this just doesn't 0:10:48.022 --> 0:10:50.982 ring true, Like she's a mother, why can't she cook spaghetti? 0:10:51.102 --> 0:10:54.302 Like it's not cute anymore, she's caught up a tree whoops. 0:10:54.822 --> 0:10:57.462 It felt a bit confronting, and then I had to think, well, 0:10:57.782 --> 0:11:00.902 the women. I know, all we do, as Jesse tells us, 0:11:01.022 --> 0:11:03.782 is talk about how we're forgetful and how we're perry, 0:11:03.822 --> 0:11:07.622 and how we're hormonal and hot flushes and all of 0:11:07.662 --> 0:11:10.502 those things, and we're owning. You know, we don't give 0:11:10.542 --> 0:11:13.302 a fuck if people don't think we've got our shit together, 0:11:13.342 --> 0:11:15.422 and we're sick of trying to pretend to be perfect. 0:11:16.182 --> 0:11:18.542 I'm really conflicted about it. I don't know. I found 0:11:18.542 --> 0:11:19.382 it confronting, though. 0:11:19.542 --> 0:11:24.702 Do you think that it's because for thirty years we've 0:11:24.702 --> 0:11:28.822 had this Bridget Jones character, but in a culture that 0:11:28.982 --> 0:11:33.182 is so drowning in the Internet, it doesn't look subversive 0:11:33.222 --> 0:11:36.262 anymore because the idea of like a young woman being 0:11:36.262 --> 0:11:40.022 a diarist, letting us into her life and sharing her 0:11:40.102 --> 0:11:43.302 day to day worries like welcome to TikTok every woman 0:11:43.382 --> 0:11:47.022 is now Bridget Jones, and now there's real currency in 0:11:47.102 --> 0:11:51.382 performing your hot messness, and it's become a trope both 0:11:51.422 --> 0:11:53.782 in literature and TV, but it's also all over all 0:11:53.822 --> 0:11:57.262 the content that we consume. I get uncomfortable when I 0:11:57.342 --> 0:11:59.662 see what I think is like people playing up the 0:11:59.702 --> 0:12:02.062 hot mess thing. I see this with like families all 0:12:02.102 --> 0:12:05.182 the time, there's certain influences and you stumble across their 0:12:05.222 --> 0:12:07.742 videos and it's like the camera's falling over and they're 0:12:07.742 --> 0:12:09.662 a mess, and there's vomit on their clothes, and you know, 0:12:09.822 --> 0:12:12.502 that is what it looks like. But at the same time, 0:12:13.062 --> 0:12:16.462 I find something maybe slightly irritating about it, because I 0:12:16.462 --> 0:12:19.302 feel like maybe they're profiting off it, or maybe that's 0:12:19.342 --> 0:12:22.262 an image or a brand that they're cultivating. Does that 0:12:22.302 --> 0:12:22.782 make sense? 0:12:22.982 --> 0:12:25.462 It does. But to your point about how it's not 0:12:25.502 --> 0:12:28.542 subversive anymore when you think about it, that's so great 0:12:28.582 --> 0:12:31.302 because it shouldn't be. Bridget Jones, the books are thirty 0:12:31.422 --> 0:12:33.822 years old, and if nothing had changed for women in 0:12:33.902 --> 0:12:37.342 thirty years, we would be, you know, not very happy 0:12:37.342 --> 0:12:39.782 about that. So I think it's fantastic that what was 0:12:39.862 --> 0:12:43.102 once groundbreaking is now it should feel passe and it 0:12:43.142 --> 0:12:46.662 should feel weird. But when she's now put in a 0:12:46.702 --> 0:12:51.182 modern setting, should we expect her to have exhorted her 0:12:51.222 --> 0:12:52.582 and when I talk about her as if she's a 0:12:52.582 --> 0:12:55.381 real person, but that character to have absorbed all these 0:12:55.422 --> 0:12:58.822 cultural changes around her and now not be all those 0:12:58.822 --> 0:13:01.982 things because it's not cool or because it's not interesting. 0:13:02.222 --> 0:13:04.782 On the other hand, the character wouldn't have changed, you know. 0:13:04.782 --> 0:13:06.982 I mean, I haven't changed that much in thirty years. 0:13:07.022 --> 0:13:09.182 I look at it and go and I see a 0:13:09.222 --> 0:13:11.462 lot of criticisms of this, and I find them a 0:13:11.502 --> 0:13:14.782 little bit frustrating because I'm like, try and write a 0:13:14.862 --> 0:13:18.182 female character in a novel, and you kind of need 0:13:18.222 --> 0:13:20.742 her to be this, like you need her to be undone, 0:13:21.062 --> 0:13:22.942 especially now, I suppose. 0:13:22.582 --> 0:13:23.942 Because that's her relatability. 0:13:24.302 --> 0:13:26.662 It's her relatability, but it's also how things go wrong, 0:13:27.142 --> 0:13:29.782 Like you can't have a woman who's functioning. A functioning 0:13:29.822 --> 0:13:31.062 woman a novel does not make. 0:13:31.142 --> 0:13:33.102 But to be honest, you can't have a functioning anybody. 0:13:33.182 --> 0:13:35.542 Because one of the things that's interesting about this is 0:13:35.582 --> 0:13:38.742 that we're a bit irritated by Bridget's hot messness because 0:13:38.742 --> 0:13:40.502 we're like, come on, dal you should have figured out 0:13:40.502 --> 0:13:42.982 by now how to boil spaghetti. But then Hugh Grant 0:13:42.982 --> 0:13:46.222 walks in. He hasn't changed either, and no probably would 0:13:46.222 --> 0:13:48.582 he have done. He's still like, oh, you naughty little 0:13:48.622 --> 0:13:51.422 minx and all that kind of stuff, and we're all like, swoon, 0:13:52.022 --> 0:13:52.462 love it. 0:13:52.622 --> 0:13:55.902 So I think that there's a dichotomy between the two 0:13:55.942 --> 0:13:59.622 ways that women can be portrayed is either completely perfect 0:14:00.422 --> 0:14:03.702 or a complete disaster. And we see it with influences, 0:14:04.022 --> 0:14:07.742 we see it with characters in movies and TV shows, 0:14:08.542 --> 0:14:10.381 and I sort of feel like I don't want to 0:14:10.382 --> 0:14:12.742 buy either of those. I don't want to be just 0:14:12.782 --> 0:14:14.582 a hot mess and I don't want to have to 0:14:14.582 --> 0:14:17.262 be perfect. Where's the room for the middle? 0:14:17.342 --> 0:14:19.422 Yeah, and I feel like this trope. I remember a 0:14:19.462 --> 0:14:21.942 few years ago watching a show and just going if 0:14:21.982 --> 0:14:24.462 I see another woman tripover, I'm aa lose it. 0:14:24.942 --> 0:14:29.102 Because women Jennifer Lawrence was the coolest girl in the world, 0:14:29.182 --> 0:14:32.422 and she fell over every time she was in public. Yes, Now, 0:14:32.462 --> 0:14:37.182 was that a deliberate strategy because that played into this trope, Like, 0:14:37.262 --> 0:14:39.302 you know, I don't belong here, I'm a bit of 0:14:39.302 --> 0:14:42.862 an interloper. I'm not poised or is that just what 0:14:42.942 --> 0:14:45.502 a lot of us are like? We are self conscious, 0:14:46.022 --> 0:14:47.742 not very poised, not very. 0:14:47.702 --> 0:14:49.942 Perfect, which is interesting to see, I suppose. But at 0:14:49.942 --> 0:14:51.702 the same time, it's like, if you keep falling over, 0:14:51.742 --> 0:14:53.302 I think you have an inner air affection and you 0:14:53.382 --> 0:14:54.182 need to get that. 0:14:54.502 --> 0:14:58.182 So don't you think that to not be attacked, women 0:14:58.262 --> 0:15:00.662 have to lead with their vulnerability. Like we talk about 0:15:00.662 --> 0:15:04.782 the number of podcasts hosted by women talking about their failures, 0:15:05.262 --> 0:15:08.822 and the number of books talking about their failures and 0:15:08.862 --> 0:15:11.262 their fuck ups, which is a sort of a trope 0:15:11.262 --> 0:15:14.462 that men don't have. Men are very able to talk 0:15:14.462 --> 0:15:17.062 about their successes and encouraged to talk about their successes, 0:15:17.542 --> 0:15:19.422 and men are very reluctant to talk about their failures, 0:15:19.422 --> 0:15:23.902 whereas women almost lead with that so as not to 0:15:23.982 --> 0:15:27.262 be disliked by other women, to be more likable. 0:15:27.302 --> 0:15:30.942 And there's it expressing a basic truth that we all, 0:15:31.222 --> 0:15:34.422 even the most poised and organized amongst us women, we 0:15:34.502 --> 0:15:36.622 never feel like we're living up to the ideal. So 0:15:36.662 --> 0:15:38.822 we always feel a bit grossed out by ourselves. And 0:15:39.022 --> 0:15:40.622 I might have a period stayed on the back of 0:15:40.662 --> 0:15:43.622 my skirt, I might smell, I might whatever. Like the 0:15:43.742 --> 0:15:49.022 insecurities about our femaleness are always there and kind except. 0:15:48.702 --> 0:15:50.582 When we're going to the dentist and we don't think 0:15:50.582 --> 0:15:51.582 about brushing our teeth. 0:15:51.902 --> 0:15:54.102 I kind of assumed, like, I know that your twenties 0:15:54.102 --> 0:15:56.022 are for being a hot mess. We've got scope, and 0:15:56.022 --> 0:15:58.662 there is something kind of cute about it. I did 0:15:58.702 --> 0:16:00.702 sort of assume that by your forties and fifties, you 0:16:00.742 --> 0:16:02.142 don't feel like a hot mess anymore? 0:16:02.262 --> 0:16:02.702 Am I right? 0:16:02.782 --> 0:16:04.222 Or am iment you feel hot? 0:16:04.782 --> 0:16:07.862 I feel like a hot mess? Who is better at 0:16:07.942 --> 0:16:10.382 knowing which bits of that matter? On which bits of it? 0:16:10.422 --> 0:16:12.782 Don't you know what I mean? Like, I think that 0:16:12.902 --> 0:16:15.382 if you can't boil spaghetti and you've got a family 0:16:15.382 --> 0:16:18.022 to feed, like, that's probably like something you should sort out. 0:16:18.062 --> 0:16:20.542 If you keep falling over the ear infection, probably something 0:16:20.542 --> 0:16:22.382 you should sort out. Most of us have to have 0:16:22.462 --> 0:16:24.182 our shit together to the point where we're paying our 0:16:24.222 --> 0:16:26.822 bills and turning up to work and doing all those things. 0:16:27.182 --> 0:16:31.222 But if you're a chaotic person, you don't suddenly change 0:16:31.302 --> 0:16:34.102 when you when you become a grown up. In inverted common. 0:16:34.902 --> 0:16:38.702 Diagnos follows has that completely. 0:16:41.022 --> 0:16:44.182 That's a sub episode theory. You're allowed to be a 0:16:44.222 --> 0:16:47.622 hot mess until you have kids. So I think that 0:16:47.702 --> 0:16:53.102 what we don't like is watching a woman still be chaotic, 0:16:53.542 --> 0:16:57.502 have her actions impact other people, sort of be driven 0:16:57.622 --> 0:16:59.382 by the whims of whatever she feels like. 0:17:00.142 --> 0:17:01.542 It feels irresponsible, It. 0:17:01.502 --> 0:17:05.102 Feels irresponsible, and it feels like, well, you're now in 0:17:05.222 --> 0:17:09.101 charge of the development of another person, and mothers are 0:17:09.142 --> 0:17:10.102 not allowed to be a hot. 0:17:10.182 --> 0:17:12.342 One hundred percent, And it's interesting because what you talked 0:17:12.341 --> 0:17:15.101 about before about the influencers who and you know me, 0:17:15.341 --> 0:17:17.782 you were one of these people in the groundbreaking early 0:17:17.821 --> 0:17:19.701 days of Mama Mia of going like, it looks like 0:17:19.782 --> 0:17:22.462 my life looks like this, but actually sometimes are meeting 0:17:22.542 --> 0:17:24.621 musically in the shower or whatever it was that you're doing. 0:17:24.982 --> 0:17:28.022 But like the people who are doing that now, yes 0:17:28.061 --> 0:17:30.262 it's relatable, but they also get a lot of criticism. 0:17:30.302 --> 0:17:31.421 There are a lot of people who are like, I 0:17:31.422 --> 0:17:33.222 feel sorry for those poor kids. Look at the state 0:17:33.262 --> 0:17:35.061 of that house. Is that what you're feeding them for dinner? 0:17:35.101 --> 0:17:36.022 You know, it's like I. 0:17:36.022 --> 0:17:37.821 Must say, sometimes I see it and I'm like, I 0:17:37.861 --> 0:17:38.462 live in a house. 0:17:38.502 --> 0:17:39.101 It's a mess. 0:17:39.141 --> 0:17:41.742 Like I don't need to see your messy house too. 0:17:41.782 --> 0:17:43.702 I actually find it's not good for my nervousness. 0:17:43.742 --> 0:17:45.581 Do you know? What I think is very hard from 0:17:45.621 --> 0:17:49.661 a TV or a character point of view is growing 0:17:49.742 --> 0:17:52.381 up characters in fiction. So we saw Within just like 0:17:52.462 --> 0:17:55.222 that where those characters, just like Bridget Joones, went from 0:17:55.222 --> 0:17:59.702 their thirties to their fifties, and we wanted the characters 0:17:59.702 --> 0:18:02.782 to evolve, but we also wanted them to stay the same. So, 0:18:02.901 --> 0:18:07.061 for example, Miranda, who was so capable in the og 0:18:07.621 --> 0:18:11.022 sex and the city and then and just like that, 0:18:11.262 --> 0:18:14.461 she was like this bumbling fool who didn't seem to 0:18:14.661 --> 0:18:16.461 know what words to use and didn't know what a 0:18:16.462 --> 0:18:22.181 podcast was and didn't understand racism. And people didn't like that, yeah, 0:18:22.262 --> 0:18:23.502 and really didn't like that. 0:18:23.462 --> 0:18:27.341 With the genre. I suppose it's like what we want 0:18:27.422 --> 0:18:30.461 from our literature or our movies is that you have 0:18:30.581 --> 0:18:33.662 kind of this arc where then they kiss and it's 0:18:33.661 --> 0:18:35.901 all perfect. Like our movies are kind of like we 0:18:35.982 --> 0:18:39.302 have a conclusion and things are solved. But with Bridget 0:18:39.381 --> 0:18:42.542 and with Carrie, another obstacle comes, which is actually how 0:18:42.542 --> 0:18:43.182 life is, like. 0:18:43.341 --> 0:18:45.302 Carriage didn't change, and we didn't like that either. So 0:18:45.422 --> 0:18:47.302 carry we were like, oh, it's not that cute talking 0:18:47.302 --> 0:18:49.942 about shoes when you're in your fifties, and I think 0:18:50.061 --> 0:18:51.462 being so ditzy. 0:18:51.782 --> 0:18:54.941 Yes, But it's interesting because in real life, we know 0:18:55.022 --> 0:18:57.621 a million women who blow up their lives when they're fifty, 0:18:57.742 --> 0:19:00.542 you know, who decide to leave a marriage, change their career, 0:19:00.782 --> 0:19:03.382 who are confused about the way the world is now 0:19:03.381 --> 0:19:05.461 and what words to use and all those things. So 0:19:05.821 --> 0:19:08.581 I think that we're comfortable with women's stories ending with 0:19:08.581 --> 0:19:10.101 the ring on the finger, you know what I mean, 0:19:10.302 --> 0:19:12.701 Like that's that then, you know, including Bridget Jones in 0:19:12.702 --> 0:19:15.861 lots of ways. But women's stories just keep going and 0:19:15.901 --> 0:19:18.621